1 Tuesday, 28
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3 p.m.
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Would the
7 Registrar call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour.
9 Case number IT-95-8-PT, the Prosecutor versus Dragan
10 Kolundzija and Damir Dosen.
11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you
12 very much. I will now ask for the appearances,
14 For the Prosecution.
15 MS. HOLLIS: Good afternoon, Your Honour.
16 Brenda Hollis, Michael Keegan, Kapila Waidyaratne
17 appear on behalf of the Prosecutor.
18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you
19 very much.
20 And could we have the appearances for the
21 Defence, please? Could you introduce yourself?
22 MR. VUCICEVIC: On behalf of Dragan
23 Kolundzija, Dusan Vucicevic, from Chicago, and
24 Mr. Jeffrey Aaron, from Los Angeles.
25 MR. AARON: Good afternoon, Your Honour.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Good
2 afternoon, Your Honour. I'm Vladimir Petrovic, and
3 with me is Sanja Turlokov. We represent the defence of
4 Mr. Damir Dosen.
5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you
6 very much.
7 I will start by very quickly spelling out our
8 agenda for this particular Status Conference. I will
9 start by reminding all of you what a Status Conference
10 is and what it is that I am expecting from the
12 Then I will discuss with both parties the
13 point which you, the Defence, and you, the Prosecution,
14 have reached in terms of pre-trial procedures.
15 I will talk about the indictment, of course,
16 of the communication of evidence in conformity with the
17 order delivered by the Chamber on March the 10th, which
18 related to the protection of victims and witnesses. We
19 will discuss the communication of other evidence in
20 application of Rule 66(ii) of our Rules of Procedure
21 and Evidence, and then we will discuss the calendar and
22 the dates that have to be set by the pre-trial Judge.
23 I will then go over the schedule of the trial
24 proper, and I will particularly try to establish how it
25 is we can deal with the length of witness testimonies
1 and what can be done in terms with the links that could
2 be established with other trials that are currently
3 being heard by this Tribunal.
4 Lastly, we will look at all other pending
5 issues before this Trial Chamber. I will ask of the
6 parties to tell us a little more about the accused's
7 state of mind and how they feel; I will turn to the
8 accused as well. And I will try to attend to all other
9 matters that might arise during this Status
11 As for the Status Conference in itself, I
12 would simply like to remind you what you maybe know,
13 i.e., that the pre-trial Judge has a full role to play,
14 but he can only play his role to the full with your
15 cooperation, and I wish for optimum cooperation between
16 us. This is what is stipulated by both the Statute and
17 our Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
18 As you may know, the Rules provide for the
19 fact that the parties can meet in order to discuss all
20 issues pending in order to try to reach agreements on
21 points of fact or points of law, and I wish for the
22 parties to take full opportunity of this, which is
23 provided for by the Statute and the Rules of Procedure
24 and Evidence, and I wish for us to try and resolve all
25 matters which the parties do not agree upon.
1 I wish to favour all kinds of arguments and
2 discussions between you, the Defence and the
3 Prosecution. I wish you to reach agreements wherever
4 possible, and you know that these agreements can occur
5 outside the courtroom, if that is necessary; it can
6 also happen in my office, for example. The main
7 objective is to give priority to a speedy preparation
8 for the trial so that the case might be heard as early
9 as possible and in the best conditions possible. We
10 want the trial to be just for both parties
12 So we will try to take stock of where we
13 stand in terms of pre-trial motions, and I will then
14 try to look over the various documents which have to be
15 filed in order for the trial to begin.
16 The first question that arises and which is
17 related to the trial pre-trial procedure is precisely
18 the question of pre-trial motions, and more
19 particularly the indictment.
20 I might have to remind you of the fact that
21 an order has been made by the Trial Chamber on the 10th
22 of February, 2000, and according to this particular
23 order, which bears on the indictment, the Prosecution
24 has submitted an amendment, if you will, an amended
25 attachment to the indictment, and this amended
1 attachment is now officially part of this indictment,
2 and that was something the Trial Chamber gave its
3 decision on.
4 Of course, the Defence, with Mr. Vucicevic
5 and Mr. Petrovic, has followed closely and has, I
6 believe, received all the necessary elements in order
7 to follow closely this particular issue, so you should
8 now know what the indictment looks like.
9 I would now like to turn to you,
10 Mr. Vucicevic, and then I will turn to you,
11 Mr. Petrovic, I would now like to ask you if there are
12 any comments that you would wish to make on that
13 particular issue.
14 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you very much, Your
15 Honour, concerning your remarks and your willingness to
16 expedite the preparation of the trial as speedy as
18 We have reviewed the amended schedules to the
19 indictment, and we, at this time, do not believe that
20 that fully complies with the terms of your order.
21 However, Your Honour, in order to apply for a set of
22 preliminary motions under Rule 72, which we
23 respectfully believe that we would be permitted to
24 because that, indeed, constitutes an amendment, we
25 would like to study the matter for a few more days and
1 then, you know, submit our application in writing.
2 But, briefly, as long as -- if I may address
3 the point, Your Honour. There is only a new column,
4 and that column is not directing the type of the
5 activity that the accused has been charged with,
6 because that's basically indicating that the accused
7 has been present from the time that the camp was
8 established to the time that the camp was disbanded.
9 However, the witnesses that the Prosecutor has clearly
10 dispute such broad errorment [sic] in the indictment,
11 and that is only one particular detail that I would --
12 you know, I wouldn't wish to kind of impose the facts
13 upon the Court at this time.
14 But not withstanding, you know, that every
15 indictment has to be looked at with a view to the facts
16 that the Prosecutor has, the Prosecutor has the duty,
17 under your ruling previously, to tie the acts of the
18 defendant to the particular charges. And I believe
19 substantially, in a form -- maybe there was an
20 attempt -- but in substance, it failed. And we'll
21 address that, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
23 Mr. Vucicevic.
24 Now, Mr. Petrovic, since you represent
25 Mr. Dosen, would you please like to take the floor?
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
2 we had sufficient time and opportunity to consider the
3 material submitted by the Prosecution, along with their
4 motions, and I believe that this was delivered to us on
5 the 9th of March.
6 We have some serious objections to this, some
7 of them are procedural in nature, and we would like to
8 lay them out for you today, if possible. The Defence
9 for Mr. Dosen fully understands your order, and we
10 wanted to be part of the indictment. What we are
11 bothered with is the way in which something can become
12 an integral part of the indictment. Something that has
13 so many details, that contains so many information,
14 that has so many specific charges in relation to my
15 client can only be made part of the indictment only by
16 the decision of the Chamber or by a formal process of
17 amendment of the indictment, so that it would become an
18 integral part of the indictment.
19 This is my understanding of the process, that
20 this attachment has to become formally an amendment to
21 the indictment. And the only way for an indictment to
22 be changed anyway is for it to be amended in a way
23 which is provided for by the Rules.
24 I would also like to point out something that
25 is clear to the Trial Chamber, the situation in the
1 Kvocka trial. It was an identical type of situation.
2 After the preliminary motions, the indictment was
3 amended, and the changes consisted of several
4 attachments which became an integral part of the
5 indictment through the process of amending it. So the
6 process of the amendment, the Defence was in a
7 position, by filing preliminary motions, pursuant to
8 Rule 72, it was able to test its -- it was able to test
9 the validity of the charges, as it was done in the
10 Kvocka case.
11 There is another reason which I find very
12 important. There are some very serious charges that
13 are leveled against both the clients, and we, as the
14 Defence team, have asked from the Trial Chamber that to
15 be clarified between the parties by challenging the
16 form of the indictment and asking --
17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
18 Mr. Petrovic, allow me to interrupt you for a few
20 If I understood you well, as Mr. Vucicevic
21 has said for Mr. Kolundzija, you also wish to file a
22 written answer to what has been presented by the
23 Prosecution. You are not satisfied by the decision
24 given by the Trial Chamber, the decision by which the
25 Trial Chamber considers that the amended attachment is
1 now officially part of the indictment in this case.
2 Have I well understood what you wanted to say?
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] In essence,
4 yes. Yes.
5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Because, at
6 any rate, it will be not be up to the Trial Judge, but
7 to the Trial Chamber in full to decide upon that
8 particular issue. What kind of schedule are you
9 looking at? When would you like to file this written
10 submission on the issue?
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No other
12 deadline except the one provided for by Rule 72 for
13 preliminary motions, no extension of the deadline.
14 This is the situation which we treat as a situation of
15 the amending of the indictment, and we only ask for the
16 deadline which has been provided for for this
17 situation, that is, the filing of preliminary motions
18 pursuant to Rule 72.
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you
20 very much, Mr. Petrovic. Have you finished?
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I have several
22 other specific points to make which would contribute to
23 the argument.
24 I believe that in this first part, there was
25 non-compliance with the order of 10 March of this year
1 by the Trial Chamber. And I would not like to take up
2 any more time, either of you, Mr. President, or any
3 other party represented here, but I would like to point
4 out just the most glaring points that -- omissions in
5 this motion.
6 Pursuant to Article 7(1) of the Statute,
7 there is no --
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No. No, I
9 don't think you've understood what it is that I wanted
10 to say to you. If you think that the Prosecution has
11 not complied with our decision, you must state that in
12 writing. I'll ask the same thing for -- I'm going to
13 ask Mr. Vucicevic the same thing. I asked you when you
14 plan to submit your written documents, your written
15 comments, so that the Trial Chamber can rule, because
16 the Trial Chamber is going to rule on your comments.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Within any
18 deadline which you set out. It could be three days,
19 seven days. Any deadline is acceptable for the Defence
20 of Damir Dosen.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you
22 very much.
23 Mr. Vucicevic, is it? Do you need a time
24 period in order to present your comments in writing?
25 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour, because we
1 are on our way to a field investigation in Bosnia, and
2 I will be staying there until the 4th, 5th, 6th, as
3 long as it takes, you know, to interview all the
4 witnesses that are available for me there. So,
5 therefore, if I may, we consider what you said in your
6 initial -- in your opening remarks, that this is an
7 amendment process to the indictment, whether it would
8 be an amendment of the text or an amendment of the
10 In Rule 72, as we understand it, and it was
11 commented on last time at the hearing by the Trial
12 Chamber, this would trigger the invocation of Rule 72
13 in allowing the Defence to present its preliminary
14 motion. However, in Rule 72, the point that I would
15 only need cleared by you, Your Honour, is -- because
16 Rule 72 provides 60 days after the amendment; however,
17 30 days after the Prosecutor discloses the evidence
18 upon which the amendment is based. And we have -- on
19 the 9th of April, it will be 30 days since that was
20 submitted by the Prosecutor. We have not had any
21 submission of the Prosecutor based on what amendments
22 were made, and when the Prosecutor addresses that
23 issue, we would clearly have the decision because you
24 could then specify whether that should be 30 days.
25 But we can do it even sooner. I think, you
1 know, we could do it within the next two weeks.
2 Because the common desire is to expedite this, I
3 believe that we can submit this within the next two
5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I'm going to
6 confer with the legal officer.
7 [Judge Bennouna confers with legal
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I'm going to
10 ask the representatives of the Prosecutor, that is,
11 Ms. Hollis, whether she has any comment to make about
12 what was just said by the Defence.
13 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Your Honour, in the Prosecution pleadings on
15 this issue of the form of the indictment, the
16 Prosecution has taken the position that the schedule
17 and the amended schedule were not an integral part of
18 the indictment but rather were, if you will, a variant
19 of a bill of particulars relating to the indictment.
20 The Trial Chamber, in its decision,
21 determined that the schedule would be a part of the
22 indictment. The Trial Chamber then ordered that we
23 file an amended schedule dealing specifically with the
24 culpability under Article 7(1), the capacity of the
25 accused, and if we were alleging that each accused was
1 responsible under both 7(1) and 7(3).
2 We did file that amendment addressing those
3 issues. We filed no additional supporting material for
4 this amendment. We did file it with the Trial Chamber;
5 it was our understanding that we were to file it with
6 the Trial Chamber. But we did not submit additional
7 supporting material, so there is no additional
8 supporting material for this particular amendment.
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] For the
10 Defence, you have heard what the Prosecutor just said,
11 and if I understand you correctly, you say that there
12 is no substantive issue, no formal problem with the
13 indictment, but rather with an amendment.
14 I will give you time, then, until the 11th of
15 April, in order to submit your arguments in writing,
16 because the Chamber will have to rule in a full bench
17 on that issue that you are raising, the issue that you
18 are challenging, the fact that this is simply a formal
19 change but stating that there is really a problem with
20 the indictment itself, that is, with the counts.
21 I will ask Ms. Hollis, that is, for the
22 Prosecution, whether one week will be enough after that
23 in order to respond to the comments made by the
24 Defence, which would take us to the 25th of April. I'd
25 like to know whether that's all right for you. Are you
1 satisfied with that, Ms. Hollis?
2 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. As I
3 understand it, the Defence would file on the 11th, and
4 then we would have one week to file our response; is
5 that correct? Would that be five -- could we have a
6 specific date? That would help clarify it.
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes, I've
8 made an arithmetical error. I said the 11th of April
9 for the Defence. We've got to add another week. I
10 don't have a calendar in front of me. That would take
11 us to the 18th.
12 Would that date be all right for you,
13 Ms. Hollis, the 18th?
14 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.
16 On the basis of that, on the 18th of April,
17 we will have the Defence position and the response from
18 the Prosecution. At that point, the Chamber, meeting
19 in full bench -- as I've already said to you, since
20 this does not fall under the authority of the pre-trial
21 Judge, who can only exercise what he is competent over,
22 and this does not fall within his jurisdiction --
23 therefore, as I said, the full Chamber will render its
24 decision in the proper time.
25 As regards that issue, that is, the area of
1 preliminary motions, I believe that was the only point
2 that was raised as regards the preliminary motions, for
3 the time being.
4 I am now going to move, if you agree, to the
5 second point, which deals with the issue of disclosure
6 of evidence. The documents -- on the basis of Rule
7 66(A)(i), the documents that were presented to the
8 confirming Judge for the indictment were disclosed to
9 the Defence. Let me remind you of this point. They
10 were redacted before being disclosed, and I would
11 repeat also that the Chamber ordered, on the 19th of
12 October, 1999, that is, the order for disclosure as
14 In another decision, on the 10th of March,
15 the Chamber rejected the motion presented by the
16 Prosecutor that some of the documents be redacted, and
17 ordered, on the 10th of March, ordered the Prosecution
18 to produce the documents in a non-redacted form within
19 three days and to notify the Chamber by the 17th of
20 March, at the latest, unless the Prosecution were to
21 present requests for protective measures.
22 Unfortunately, the Prosecution has not
23 produced what the Chamber asked for on time. In a
24 moment, I will ask you why. You can explain that to
25 us, Ms. Hollis. And the Defence reacted, on the 21st
1 of March, in a motion asking that that behaviour of the
2 Prosecutor be sanctioned -- that is, for failure to
3 comply with the decision of the Trial Chamber -- and
4 also asked authorisation from the Trial Chamber to
5 interview witnesses. We had to wait well beyond the
6 time period set, that is, until the 24th of March, for
7 the Prosecutor to notify -- to make the notification
8 that it was requested to do.
9 Let me remind you: It is not the problem of
10 the Registry. The Registry and the Registrar have
11 produced the documents on time, but, according to the
12 explanations that were given to us by the Prosecutor,
13 that there was an internal problem within the OTP.
14 This does not concern disclosure of the documents or
15 submission of documents by the Registry. Therefore,
16 this is a problem of communication of documents within
17 the Office of the Prosecutor itself.
18 I consider this incident to be closed now,
19 although I must remind the Prosecution of its
20 obligation to execute the decisions of the Trial
21 Chamber within the time period set by that Trial
22 Chamber, and therefore it is your responsibility to set
23 up the proper mechanism within your office so that
24 documents are submitted and so that execution is
25 carried out within the proper deadlines.
1 The Prosecution has also requested the
2 notification which was sent to us, and in its request,
3 it's asking for protective measures, asking the Trial
4 Chamber to grant protective measures, which are
5 measures with which we are familiar. The Prosecutor
6 was asking that certain identifying data not be
7 disclosed which would allow the witnesses to be
8 located, that is, three weeks to one month before the
9 opening of the trial.
10 This deals with two witnesses, Witnesses N
11 and J. Let me remind you that in the documents which
12 were presented for confirmation, there were only four,
13 including those two, those two witnesses that were
14 presented, the statements that were made during the
15 confirming proceedings.
16 I would now like to turn to the Defence and
17 ask you -- that is, the Defence of Mr. Kolundzija and
18 Mr. Dosen -- to react to the request of the Prosecutor
19 -- that is, from the Prosecutor herself -- in respect
20 of those protective measures for the two witnesses,
21 that is, Witnesses N and J.
22 Mr. Vucicevic.
23 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Before I directly answer your question, I believe you
25 know that I have to kind of continue where Madam Hollis
1 has left off, because on June -- on July 19th, there
2 was disclosure of the evidentiary material upon which
3 the confirmations were based. In your order that you
4 just discussed about, indicated the disclosure of all
5 the material is going to relate to the original
6 indictment and all subsequent amendments.
7 When I reviewed my file, and in reviewing the
8 submission, the most recent submission by the
9 Prosecutor, indicating upon the ministerial mistake
10 that was a full compliance, I realised there was a
11 section 3, "Extracts of Evidence," with the stamp,
12 actually handwritten filings of the Registry, dated
13 June 26, 1995, and the document contains about 105 or
14 106 pages, even though the last page is number 124, but
15 there are a few pages that were not given to us. There
16 is only -- there is about 42 pages of documents here
17 that are numbered in range 4 to 8. When I reviewed
18 material that was disclosed to us indicating there was
19 only two -- four witnesses, most of these pages are not
20 here. Obviously, when there were other statements of
21 what the witnesses when this original indictment has
22 been confirmed, and these statements were not turned
23 over to us.
24 We cannot proceed expeditiously in preparing
25 this case with this type of a piecemeal approach, Your
1 Honour, and with a view of having this information, our
2 motion for sanction has been filed with your Chambers.
3 However, Your Honour, I have to give you a little bit
4 of a chronological overview.
5 My client, Mr. Kolundzija, has been arrested
6 on June 7th, 1999. Your order was issued -- first
7 order of protection was ordered on October 19th,
8 without any objection of us. Your reinforcement of
9 that order, basically a stern warning of compliance,
10 has been issued on March 10. The Prosecutor yet does
11 not fully comprehend what material was used and what
12 material wasn't used. Prosecutor is asking after
13 the -- one of the witnesses under the assumed name --
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] With regard
15 to the working order, just a moment, please. I think
16 that you agree with me, you agree with me when you say
17 that we've got to move in order. If I'm understanding
18 you correctly, you said that at the beginning that you
19 were missing documents, that the Prosecutor had not
20 given you all the documents that she was supposed to.
21 Is that correct?
22 MR. VUCICEVIC: It appears that way, Your
23 Honour, and I would like to tender these copies of the
24 documents that were disclosed to me by the Prosecutor
25 on July 19th for you to view and to find out whether
1 these documents were yet disclosed or not. Because we
2 just received the statement from the Prosecutor that
3 all the supporting documents have been disclosed, so
4 that is a question in issue. I'm putting that at
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Well, what
7 is it that you're missing?
8 MR. VUCICEVIC: There was about 120 pages
9 filed with the Office of the Registry on June 26, 1995
10 and termed "Extracts of Evidence." In those 50 to 60
11 witness statements, which all of them redacted, only of
12 them were termed "Witness 1" and "Witness 2." The
13 others, they don't have any markings. What I would
14 like to know: Who are these witnesses? Because their
15 release of their names is [indiscernible] by your
17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Just a
18 moment, please. Are we speaking about the same
19 documents? Are these the documents that were submitted
20 in support of the confirmation of the indictment? Are
21 those the documents you're talking about right now,
22 those two? And you should have them in your
24 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I believe so.
25 However, the only -- because confirmation of indictment
1 is an ex parte proceedings to which we are not privy.
2 One attempt to amend it before the Trial Chamber has
3 been abandoned so quickly as soon as we filed a motion
4 in opposition of it. I do not know what was here
5 before the Confirming Judge. All what I see what was
6 disclosed to me by the Prosecutor on July 19th, and the
7 section number 3 of material disclosed, and that was
8 disclosed pursuant to Rule 72. There is this material
9 not only that's been disclosed to me on July 19, 1999,
10 I mean -- and this material has been filed with the
11 Office of the Registry in June 26th, 1995. So there
12 is, indeed, a high probability that this material has
13 been used in confirmation of the original indictment,
14 because this case has been confirmed in 1995. Those
15 are issues that I'm putting before Your Honour, and
16 hopefully the Prosecutor can answer, because I believe
17 that --
18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes, thank
19 you very much, Mr. Vucicevic.
20 Ms. Hollis, could you throw some light on
21 that for us, please?
22 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Let me
23 attempt to do so.
24 When the indictment was originally submitted
25 for confirmation, no witness statements were provided.
1 An extract of evidence was provided; an expert
2 statement was provided. The extract of evidence was
3 exactly as it speaks: It was an extract of evidence;
4 it was not witness statements.
5 During the confirmation proceeding on that
6 original indictment, pursuant to a request of the
7 Confirming Judge, two witness statements were
8 provided. Those witness statements are listed in the
9 exhibit that you have been given as witness statements,
10 two: Witness statement 1 and Witness statement 2.
11 Those were the only statements provided to the
12 Confirming Judge for the original indictment. The
13 material that is listed here in this receipt is exactly
14 what the Confirming Judge received. He received
15 nothing more. And I would note that it was the 16th of
16 July that the counsel was given these materials, and it
17 was the 16th of July that counsel signed for these
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] From that
20 point, we now have clarifications for the documents.
21 The documents which were submitted for confirmation
22 were given to you in their totality entirety.
23 Ms. Hollis has just told us that there were two witness
24 statements, if I've understood correctly, only two,
25 which were provided at the same time as the documents
1 that were provided to the confirming Judge. Therefore,
2 you should be clear now about the documents.
3 What I'm asking now is for you to tell us
4 that you have the documents that were given to you in
5 support of the indictment. What is your position on
6 the Prosecutor's motion asking for protective measures
7 for two witnesses? That's right, isn't it?
8 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I believe that
9 Prosecutor is making differentiation between witness
10 statements in its entirety and parts of various witness
11 statements which he is naming "Extracts of Evidence."
12 The Prosecutor is at liberty to submit either the
13 statements in full or in a partial form, but whatever
14 has been presented with confirmation, whether it's in
15 full form or in partial form, as it is called
16 "extracted evidence," I believe has to be released to
17 us in its entirety and with the full names. Because if
18 the Trial Judge, I'm sorry --
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Let me
20 interrupt you for a moment. No, no, no, no. I'm
21 interrupting you. The question has been settled. What
22 had to be done in application of the Statute and the
23 Rules of Procedure and Evidence was done at that stage
24 of the proceedings. There were extracts -- well, the
25 documents that were presented for confirmation were
1 given to you as provided for at that stage in the
2 Rules. Now, you must answer my question that I asked
3 you, the question which had to do with the protective
4 measures requested for two statements, two witness
5 statements of the Prosecution.
6 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you
7 very much. And we will review the record of this
8 session and we'll try to find out exactly and have a
9 conference, as you indicated earlier, with you at some
10 later date to address this point. Because it seems,
11 you know, that certain points perhaps, you know, were
12 missed by me, or, you know, perhaps the Prosecutor is
13 using semantics to hide something from us. But, Your
14 Honour, your question directly, you know, that --
15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
16 In order to clarify whether or not you're -- that is,
17 if you are not convinced, you can contact the
18 Prosecutor directly in order to clarify some things
19 having to do with that point, if you haven't quite
20 understood what was said. And as you said, if you have
21 any other clarifications that you want, during another
22 hearing, we can do it then. For the time being, things
23 are clear. The documents which were presented in
24 support of the confirmation weren't disclosed to you,
25 and that's the only thing to clarify in respect of the
2 Where do we stand now in respect of the
3 question that I asked you having to do with the
4 protective measures that were requested?
5 MR. VUCICEVIC: We oppose the request for
6 protective measures as submitted in the present form.
7 The request for protective measures, you know, this is
8 much broader, this is much wider, and this is
9 basically, you know, not contributing any more to the
10 protection of the witness. But perhaps, you know, the
11 main gist of this is to prevent the Defence to prepare
12 adequately for this indictment, which is rather poorly
13 supported by the witness statements of the Prosecutor.
14 However, in a very particular here, on
15 Witness N, Prosecutor is mentioning one of the reasons
16 that he is --
17 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I
18 apologise for interrupting, Your Honour, but if we are
19 going to go into specifics about the motion for
20 protective measures, it may be better that we go into
21 private session so that nothing that is said would
22 inadvertently disclose the identity of a witness.
23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I have no
24 intention of going into details. If Mr. Vucicevic is
25 opposed to this, if he is answering no, I will ask him
1 to provide me with written comments, that is, comments
2 explaining why he is opposed to the protective
4 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] The deadline
6 for responding has not yet elapsed. It was two weeks.
7 Therefore, I'm going to ask that you respond within the
8 deadline set, which ordinarily would be the 7th of
10 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour --
11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And I'll
12 wait for your answer, and then take my decision,
13 because it is a decision which comes under the
14 authority of the pre-trial Judge, that is, once I've
15 received your answer. I'm not going to ask you to make
16 any oral comments now.
17 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, could I address
18 you only as far as the time in which we -- I'm required
19 to present this? Because it was my anticipation that
20 this was going to be done in an oral presentation
21 today. Since Your Honour wishes the written submission
22 be submitted, and we have plans, we are departing
23 tomorrow for Prijedor and staying there until the 4th
24 or the 5th of April, and upon returning to the United
25 States, I'm afraid that I will not have time to
1 respond, and I will ask you kindly to grant now an
2 extension of time, an additional seven days, within
3 which we could respond in writing to this motion.
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So you're
5 asking for how much time, is it?
6 MR. VUCICEVIC: For additional -- until about
7 the 14th of April, because we will be in Bosnia through
8 the 5th of April.
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 All right. You have until the 14th of April to respond
11 to the Prosecutor's motion requesting protective
13 Let me now turn to Mr. Dosen's counsel in
14 respect of the same question.
15 Mr. Petrovic, would you please give us your
16 point of view on those protective measures? Are they
17 acceptable, or do you too, if they aren't acceptable to
18 you, do you plan to present your arguments in writing
19 on that subject?
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
21 will be very brief, but I would like to say something
22 about the matters discussed in the past ten minutes.
23 We have received all the supporting material with the
24 indictment, and that was on the 8th of November. Our
25 only comment would be that we should all consider the
1 rate at which the remaining material will be disclosed,
2 which will be used by both sides during these
4 As regards the request of the 24th of March,
5 the Defence is opposed to it and will provide written
6 arguments at a time set by Your Honour.
7 As regards the sanctions suggested, we are
8 not submitting such a proposal to the Trial Judge.
9 Thank you.
10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 In order to simplify things, both for Mr. Kolundzija's
12 defence and Mr. Dosen's defence, you've got until the
13 14th of April to respond to the Prosecutor's motion
14 asking for protective measures for the two witnesses
15 mentioned in the motion. And at that point, a decision
16 will be taken on the motion.
17 A final point. Before we move to that final
18 point, it is, of course, understood that if I judge it
19 necessary, I'll ask the Prosecution for a copy of the
20 statements in order to verify that they do, in fact,
21 respond to the objective of the redacted statements and
22 that the reason would only be in order not to be able
23 to identify the whereabouts and names of the
25 And lastly, we might as well do it now, since
1 there is an objection. I've heard the Defence
2 objections. I've asked the Prosecutor also to provide
3 us with a copy of the redacted statements so that I
4 could take my decision in full knowledge of what I'm
6 A final point. In the motion that was sent
7 to us, presented by the Defence of Mr. Kolundzija, it
8 was asked that permission be given for interviewing the
9 witnesses. We were requested that by you,
10 Mr. Vucicevic, and from our point of view, I think that I
11 remind you of the relevant paragraph in the order which
12 was rendered by the Trial Chamber, the order of 19
13 October 1999, which says the following:
14 "The Defence cannot contact a witness or any
15 potential witness whose identity was disclosed to it by
16 the Prosecution, or with any individual whose prior
17 written statements or whose confidential testimony was
18 disclosed by the Prosecution, unless written
19 notification has been given to the Prosecution within
20 reasonable time periods."
21 That's where we stand now in respect of that
22 question. If you want to contact these people,
23 Mr. Vucicevic, that is, in contact with any witnesses,
24 you will have to inform the Prosecution in writing of
25 that. That's what was mentioned in the order.
1 MR. VUCICEVIC: If I may address that --
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And it, of
3 course, is understood that as regards the statements
4 which have been redacted, that there would be a time
5 period set before the trial in order to allow you to
6 get into contact with the witnesses in question.
7 Mr. Vucicevic.
8 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, we are all
9 limited by our time on this world, and since the time
10 is -- everything is measured in time, the time even
11 affects judicial orders; regrettably, but it does.
12 Your order, just as you read, was dated October 19th,
13 and it's five months later, Your Honour, and there is a
14 release of the witness that was given to us, his
15 statement was given to us, that is absolutely
16 favourable to Mr. Kolundzija, and we could have asked
17 for permission to interview him had his name been
18 disclosed to us in a timely fashion, as you ordered.
19 And we would have notified the Prosecutor, but that was
20 all done on the 24th of March, and I departed -- and
21 that was Friday, I believe, or Thursday. And, Your
22 Honour, as long as you have issued that order, I ask
23 you respectfully for the permission to interview that
24 witness and if I could ask the Prosecution, could I use
25 the name, because his name was given to us, could I use
1 his name in open court? Any objection?
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis?
3 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, it's one of the
4 witnesses whose unredacted statements were disclosed
5 with their names. These are not witnesses who have
6 sought protective measures. So we would have no basis
7 to object to the use of that name.
8 MR. VUCICEVIC: Okay. That's Mr. Varmaz.
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Speak up,
10 Mr. Vucicevic. But I'm asking you not to address the
11 Prosecution directly. You have to go through the
12 pre-trial Judge if you want to address the
13 Prosecution. It is to me that you have to turn, and I
14 am the one leading the debate now. So now I am telling
15 you that you have had Ms. Hollis's answer. What more
16 do you want to know?
17 MR. VUCICEVIC: I would like to get a ruling
18 of the Trial Chamber, because this is a Prosecutor
19 witness, yes, and within the language of your order
20 of -- as reinforced on March 10, would I have your
21 permission to interview this witness, because I am
22 leaving for Prijedor tomorrow, and this witness's name
23 is Suad Varmaz.
24 Also, there is a second witness that
25 participated here on identification proceedings, that
1 was an opening proceeding, and his name was Halid
2 Nezirovic. If I could get your permission to interview
3 those two witnesses. Those are only two witnesses from
4 the Prosecutor's list. Since one testified in the open
5 court, and another whose name was just disclosed to us
6 three days ago. Both of those witnesses have
7 exculpatory statements.
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
9 would you like to react to that?
10 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, our position on
11 contacting witnesses directly by the Defence is that no
12 such contacts should be made until the witness has been
13 given the opportunity to indicate whether they wish to
14 allow such contact or not, and if they do wish to allow
15 it, if they wish to allow it in a place away from where
16 they reside. We believe that the Trial Chamber
17 decision ordering that we be given prior written notice
18 of the witnesses whom the Defence wishes to contact was
19 made in part to allow us to attempt to contact these
20 witnesses and determine if they had objections to any
21 contact by the Defence. We would like to avail
22 ourselves of that opportunity in regard to the two
23 witnesses who were just named by the Defence, to
24 determine if we could contact them and find out if they
25 have any objections to contact by the Defence, and if
1 they would allow such contact, if they have any
2 conditions on such contact so that we may file that
3 information with you and with the Defence.
4 So we could not, at this point, indicate we
5 objected to the contact or did not object to it,
6 without an opportunity to contact these witnesses.
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
8 Mr. Vucicevic, I would now ask you to simply comply
9 with the order given on October 19th and to comply to
10 this order as is provided for by the Rules. This order
11 stipulates what the procedure should be, and you have
12 not respected that particular procedure. You have not
13 done so up to now. So now I am asking you to go by
14 what is said in the order of the 19th of October. You
15 have to notify in written form the Prosecution of your
16 wishes, and you have to do so in a reasonable deadline,
17 so that the Prosecution may have the possibility to
18 react in good time to what you ask for.
19 So please notify the Prosecution in a written
20 form, stipulate in writing that you want to interview
21 the two particular witnesses you mentioned, and do so
22 within a deadline, within a reasonable deadline, which
23 will allow the Prosecution to take the necessary
24 steps. In particular, the Prosecution will be able to
25 contact the witnesses you wish to hear.
1 Now, that is all that has to be said on this
2 particular issue of the possible interviewing of
3 witnesses by Defence counsel.
4 I will now move on to another issue which is
5 on our agenda; namely, the issue of other evidence
6 disclosure of which are provided for by Rule 66(A)(ii) of
7 our Rules of Procedure and Evidence; disclosure of,
8 among other things, all the statements that the
9 Prosecution wishes to call during the trial, statements
10 other than those we mentioned a moment ago, these
11 statements taken under oath, the affidavits that are
12 provided for in Rule 74 ter of the Rules of Procedure
13 and Evidence.
14 This issue has been dealt with by the Trial
15 Chamber in the order of the 10th of March, and the
16 Trial Chamber was convinced that it was up to the
17 pre-trial Judge to set the deadlines that apply to the
18 disclosure of the second category of documents. In
19 this very same order, the Trial Chamber stipulated that
20 the Prosecution could ask for some of its statements to
21 be redacted in order to protect the identities of some
22 of the witnesses involved, or at least to redact the
23 data that would allow anyone to find out about the
24 whereabouts of the witnesses, and it is up to the
25 pre-trial Judge to make sure that these statements are
1 redacted up to a certain date.
2 So I will now turn to the Prosecution, to
3 you, Ms. Hollis, and I will ask you if you could tell
4 the Trial Chamber how many statements fall into that
5 particular category, i.e., how many statements do you
6 plan to have redacted, as is provided by the order I
7 have just mentioned.
8 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution
9 regrets that it cannot give you a valid or complete
10 number today. The number of statements which we would
11 wish to redact would depend upon the inputs we receive
12 from the witnesses that we intend to call. We are in
13 the process of contacting potential witnesses, and part
14 of that process is to learn if they do wish such
15 protections. But we have not completed that process.
16 So it may very well be that a substantial number have
17 no redactions because the witnesses have no request for
18 them. It could be that most or all of the statements
19 would have redactions because the witnesses request
20 such. But, unfortunately, Your Honour, I'm not in a
21 position today to give you a number. I will tell you,
22 however, that we are in the process of putting together
23 our potential witness list and of contacting those
24 potential witnesses.
25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
1 could you, however, maybe tell me now, if you can, of
2 course, how long you would need to meet my request?
3 How much time do you need to give me an idea of the
4 number of statements which might be redacted? And as a
5 matter of fact, is that something that you think you
6 might be able to tell me at some point soon?
7 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, may I have a moment
8 to confer with my colleagues.
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution
12 anticipates that in order to give you a comprehensive
13 response, we would have to contact something in the
14 order of 100 potential witnesses. We believe that in
15 order to be able to do that, we would need five to ten
16 working days to be sure we could contact the greatest
17 number possible.
18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] You said
19 five to ten working days?
20 MS. HOLLIS: That's correct, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Would two
22 weeks be enough for you?
23 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
25 Ms. Hollis. Which, of course -- I'm sorry. I will now
1 turn to the legal officer of the Chamber,
2 Ms. Featherstone, and I will ask her to help me on the
3 particular deadlines that we need to meet.
4 [Judge Bennouna confers with legal
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] We have
7 already settled on this particular deadline of two
8 weeks, so that brings us to the 11th of April once
9 again. On the 11th of April, I expect you to submit to
10 us this list of statements for which you ask that they
11 be redacted. Of course, these redacted statements
12 have, as their only aim, to avoid the identification of
13 witnesses' names or whereabouts. So your deadline is
14 the 11th of April.
15 Does the Defence have anything else to add on
16 this particular issue that I've just mentioned?
17 MR. VUCICEVIC: No, Your Honour, we don't, on
18 this issue.
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
20 Mr. Petrovic.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
22 would just like to point out that we need to work out
23 some more specific deadlines as per Article 62(A)
24 because it is very important for the Defence to have
25 these statements as soon as possible, the redacted
1 statements, that is. Thank you.
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I'm coming
3 to that Mr. Petrovic, but thank you for what you have
4 just said.
5 Ms. Hollis, maybe you can help us on this.
6 What is the deadline as far as the disclosure mentioned
7 by the Defence is concerned, disclosure of the
8 evidence, statements and so on?
9 MS. HOLLIS: If I may have another moment,
10 Your Honour.
11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour, for the
14 opportunity to consult.
15 As I indicated, Your Honour, we have begun to
16 put together our potential witness list with a view
17 toward moving to 66(A)(ii) and to begin to disclose
18 statements of potential witnesses. We certainly had
19 intended, even before this Status Conference was set,
20 to begin that process in the immediate future. We
21 anticipate that we could provide the redacted or
22 unredacted version statements of potential witnesses
23 within one month to the Defence. This would be the
24 witnesses that we now see as witnesses in the case. Of
25 course, to the extent we don't have confirmation of
1 witnesses' availability or willingness, we might add
2 witnesses later. But we believe in one month we could
3 have the bulk of that done.
4 Your Honour, just to be clear as to what our
5 position is, our position is as we have set it forward
6 in the protective measures motion, and that is we would
7 like delayed disclosure of the names of those witnesses
8 who seek protection. We would like delayed disclosure
9 of their names, not their statements.
10 As regards whereabouts, Your Honour, we would
11 also like delayed disclosure of whereabouts if we have
12 to disclose it at all. We feel very strongly that
13 disclosing the current whereabouts of witnesses puts
14 them in jeopardy of intimidation, harassment, threats,
15 harm, either through inadvertent, unauthorised
16 disclosure, or through, unfortunately, at some times,
17 willing and knowing unauthorised disclosure. So we are
18 very concerned about providing the whereabouts, the
19 current whereabouts of these witnesses. If we are
20 required to do so, Your Honour, we would wish to do so
21 as close in time to the beginning of trial as possible,
22 because the longer this information is available, the
23 more likely it is for some inadvertent disclosure, or
24 even a bad-faith disclosure. So as far as whereabouts
25 is concerned, that, we would not like to disclose until
1 sometime very close to trial, if at all.
2 In regards of other identifying information,
3 as I indicated before, that will depend upon what the
4 witnesses tell us, and we will disclose information
5 about the witnesses when the witness tells us they have
6 no need for protective measures.
7 So in terms of providing the bulk of the
8 information, the witness statements, we believe that we
9 can do that in one month. In terms of compliance with
10 identification and whereabouts, that would be subject
11 to the remarks I just made, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
13 since you are on your feet, to sum it up, you are
14 asking for one month to disclose to the Defence the
15 unredacted statements. Have I understood you
17 MS. HOLLIS: Unredacted statements for those
18 witnesses who do not seek protection; redacted
19 statements for those witnesses who do.
20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [No interpretation].
21 MS. HOLLIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, we're
22 not getting an interpretation. There seems to be a
23 problem with the English translation.
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: I will try to speak English,
25 if we can save time. If I understand you correctly, I
1 will have a list on the 11th of April, including, I
2 think, the declarations, to allow me to -- including
3 the declarations and the redactions you propose. It
4 will be on the 11th. And you propose a delay of one
5 month from the decision of the pre-trial Judge, I
6 think? Because the question I have, you say, "We need
7 a delay of one month." One month starting from what?
8 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we believe that
9 within one month of today, we could provide to the
10 Defence the redacted versions of statements where the
11 witnesses have requested protected measures, or (2) the
12 potential witnesses that we have not been able to
13 contact, so we don't know what their status is. In
14 addition to that, within that same month, we could
15 provide unredacted copies of witness statements of
16 those witnesses who have indicated they have no need
17 for protective measures. That's one month from today,
18 Your Honour.
19 Your Honour, in relation to the 11th of
20 April, we will be able to provide you with the number
21 of witnesses who would request redactions, but I'm not
22 at all confident we would actually be able to provide
23 you with redactions by that date. I believe it will
24 take us one month to complete that exercise. We could
25 provide you, of course, with the unredacted versions of
1 the statements.
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Fine. So if
3 I understood you well, within a month, we will be on --
4 it will be the 28th -- no, rather, today is the 28th of
5 March, so it will be the 28th of April. On that
6 particular date, you will disclose to the Defence all
7 the statements, be they redacted statements or
8 unredacted statements. You will also disclose on the
9 11th of April, you will give to me as a pre-trial
10 Judge, the list of the statements emanating from the
11 various witnesses, and also the list of the statements
12 for which you do not wish to have the data on the
13 witnesses names and whereabouts to be communicated.
14 And later on, you will also provide to me
15 these statements so that I may make sure that the
16 redactions -- it's much more difficult to say all this
17 in French than it is in English -- that these
18 redactions are under my supervision, under my control.
19 I have to comply with my duties; I have to make sure
20 that you have proceeded to the right redactions. You
21 have to be in conformity with the aim set by the Trial
22 Chamber. And when I receive this from you, I will make
23 a decision on the statements that have been redacted.
24 I will decide on a date at which the whole of the
25 non-redacted statement must be disclosed. I think
1 you've asked between three weeks or a month before the
2 beginning of the trial. Is that right?
3 MS. HOLLIS: Yes.
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Fine. So
5 this is where we stand.
6 Mr. Petrovic, I hope we've answered your
7 question. This is what the situation is in terms of
8 disclosure of statements by the Prosecution. Is there
9 anything else you would like to add? Time is running
10 out. Do you have something else you would need to
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
13 Honour. Thank you.
14 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I have a
15 question concerning the process of redaction of the
16 statements of the witnesses, because it is our position
17 that the whole process of the redaction, it's based on
18 the history of our compliance with this Trial Chamber's
19 orders on confidentiality. It is a misguided step that
20 is giving extra and unnecessary work to the Judge, and
21 the final effect of it is creating an unlevel playing
22 field, creating unfair -- it's going to lead to unfair
23 delay to Defence to prepare for the trial and to delay
24 a speedy trial. Indeed, it's going to prejudice the
25 defendant. And, Your Honour, I'm making these remarks
1 with the highest regard for your office and, you know,
2 for the proceedings that we are facing.
3 If I may -- you know, I represented
4 Dr. Kovacevic in that before this Tribunal in 1998, and
5 we had been issued a confidential order on the witness
6 so the protection was the name Witness B. And I have
7 even indicated and presented in the Office of the
8 Prosecutor that perhaps even the fax communication to
9 the former Yugoslavia might be so sensitive, it might
10 be that faxes could be intercepted. And with such
11 issues, we have to be very careful. So to that effect,
12 I've dispatched an assistant of mine to take a trip
13 from here to Banja Luka, to take the name of such a
14 witness and give it to the person who was investigated
15 in the field. No leaks, nothing, because with our high
16 respect for your orders of confidentiality.
17 If we have an order of confidentiality, as
18 strict as you can impose, Your Honour. We could then
19 know about this witness. We can timely apply to the
20 Prosecutor so the mistake of the past, where we are
21 denied the chance to talk to a witness now who is in
22 the Prijedor area, will not repeat itself. And this is
23 going to help us, Your Honour.
24 And one thing, an additional in closing.
25 Thirty days to 21 days, to release the redactions, if
1 you indeed decide to adopt the redactions as a matter
2 of protection, it is so short that we will not be able
3 to conduct any investigation at all. Because first,
4 our office is our man in Chicago, and Mr. Aaron is in
5 Los Angeles. Telephone communication with Bosnia is
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
8 Mr. Vucicevic, what is it you are asking for?
9 MR. VUCICEVIC: I'm asking for 75 days, Your
10 Honour, because we have followed confidentiality orders
11 to the utmost, and we intend to do it in the future.
12 We only need a fair chance to defend this man, who most
13 of the Muslim inmates that I've talked to have said
14 that he is -- he has committed no wrong. But, Your
15 Honour, as long as I'm, you know, so moved at this
16 point, I do have to disclose --
17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
18 Mr. Vucicevic, I have understood what you have just
19 told us, but you also know that the Rules of Procedure
20 and Evidence of this Tribunal have been set up over a
21 long period of time. There are a lot of decisions that
22 have been taken on these particular issues, and I'm
23 sure you know about them. So in good time, the Trial
24 Chamber will make its decision on this particular issue
25 that you've raised.
1 Now, swiftly on to the next item on the
2 agenda, i.e., the other deadlines that have to be set
3 by the pre-trial Judge. We all share, I think, the
4 same priority, that is to say, that we want to see the
5 pre-trial procedures run through as smoothly as
6 possible because we all want the trial to start as
7 early as possible and to be a fair and just trial for
8 all persons involved.
9 The 24th of January, Ms. Hollis, the Trial
10 Chamber asked you to start working on the pre-trial
11 brief. I would now like to turn to you to ask you if
12 maybe you can help us see more clearly what the
13 deadlines are. How much time do you need to put this
14 document in order, to submit this pre-trial brief?
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your
17 Honour, the Prosecution is of the mind that it can have
18 the pre-trial brief ready by the 11th of April.
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
20 Ms. Hollis. Thank you, because it seems that you have
21 already started working on the pre-trial brief. It is
22 very helpful, because it means that we can work
23 swiftly. I understand, then, that the pre-trial brief
24 will be in our hands on the 11th of April.
25 The second question that I wish to put to
1 you, Ms. Hollis, it is a question which is related to
2 another document which we need within the framework of
3 the pre-trial proceedings, i.e., the list of the
4 documents, the documentary evidence, and the list of
5 the witnesses. At some point, you mentioned some
6 60 witnesses coming to testify, and you said that you
7 would need about eight weeks, approximately, to hear
8 these witnesses. Could you also give us a date, a date
9 on which you would be able to communicate to us these
10 documents which we need to have before the trial can
12 MS. HOLLIS: Just a moment, Your Honour.
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, earlier, when I
15 spoke, I indicated that in order to fulfil some of our
16 other obligations, we would have to contact up to
17 100 witnesses. The Prosecution would prefer to be
18 limited by a time in which it can present its case,
19 rather than a number of witnesses, because depending
20 upon what measures are adopted, it may be that witness
21 testimony will move much more quickly. We believe that
22 an estimate of the number of witnesses we would require
23 for trial would be approximately 75 witnesses. There
24 could be some that could be taken by way of deposition,
25 there could be some that would be affidavit-type
1 witnesses, but we believe that 75 would be an
2 appropriate number.
3 Within 30 days, as I indicated earlier, we
4 will have the witness statements of potential
5 witnesses. So at that time, we should have a list of
6 our potential witnesses to provide.
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And what
8 about the documentary evidence, various evidence?
9 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we have already
10 provided to the Defence, by way of courier, a list of
11 documentary evidence and copies of the documentary
12 evidence. That is the core of the documentary evidence
13 that we will be using to determine our final
14 documentary evidence needs for the case. So, again, we
15 believe that within one month, we should be able to
16 have what is the most final documentary evidence list
17 we can have, realising that some things are uncertain
18 and some things may change.
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
20 Ms. Hollis.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Mr. President.
23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,
24 Mr. Petrovic.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just briefly I
1 would like to say that in addition to the supporting
2 material of the indictment, the Defence of Damir Dosen
3 received no other document, not counting what I
4 received only today before the beginning of the Status
5 Conference. We discussed this briefly, and we would
6 like -- we will try to overcome this situation, but
7 until now, I have received nothing, no documents.
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
9 can you help us on this as well?
10 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.
11 Your Honour, on the 22nd of February, the
12 documentary evidence and some other evidence was sent
13 by courier. It's the Prosecution's understanding that
14 there may be some difficulty with courier delivery to
15 the Defence counsel's office, and perhaps that is why
16 he has not received the evidence. There's not an easy
17 way to send the information to Serbia, but we did send
18 it by courier. But, again, we certainly do not doubt
19 him when he says he has not received it. We believe
20 perhaps that's a problem with the courier service to
21 his office.
22 Also, Your Honour, we have indicated to
23 Defence counsel that we are willing to provide him with
24 another copy of the documentary evidence.
25 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, if I may report
1 that we have received the package.
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Just a
3 second, Mr. Vucicevic. Okay. You have received these
4 documents. But it seems that there may be a
5 transmission problem as regards Mr. Petrovic.
6 Ms. Hollis, you tell me that you might be
7 able to give these documents to Mr. Petrovic now.
8 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. We've
9 indicated to Mr. Petrovic that we would be able to
10 provide him with another copy of the documents before
11 he leaves on Thursday.
12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I think
13 that's the best way to go about this particular issue.
14 And thank you, Ms. Hollis, for your cooperation.
15 So Mr. Petrovic, I think that you simply have
16 to turn to the Prosecution's offices and ask for these
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to
19 suggest, Your Honour, that the documents for the
20 Defence of Mr. Dosen be provided to the Defence here,
21 so that we do not depend on the courier service. Thank
23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well
24 then. I'm sure that Ms. Hollis has carefully listened
25 to what you have just said.
1 In fact, I think that these issues on
2 circulation of information, which are technical issues,
3 in a way, can be settled between yourself outside the
4 courtroom. Maybe we don't need to have the Trial
5 Chamber look into these technical questions. We are
6 not dealing with any particular legal issue here. So
7 that's all fine and well. This is, I think, settled.
8 Another issue; it seems that we will have a
9 synthesis on facts and on the -- who will be the
10 witnesses who will come to testify. It seems that we
11 will have this in good time, but my question is: Are
12 the two parties in agreement? Do they agree on the
13 fact that the Trial Chamber might also receive the
14 witnesses' statements, as has been done, I believe, in
15 other cases which have been heard by this Tribunal?
16 I'm turning, first of all, to the Defence
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,
20 Mr. Petrovic.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
22 the Defence of Mr. Dosen, of course, agrees with this,
23 and we have no comment on it. Thank you.
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
25 Mr. Petrovic.
1 Mr. Vucicevic.
2 MR. VUCICEVIC: We have no objection.
3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
4 I now turn to you.
5 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, at the risk of
6 incurring your wrath, the Prosecution did not intend
7 and does not intend to submit all of the witness
8 statements of its witnesses. We have developed a
9 procedure we would like to follow in this case, and
10 that is when the witnesses come to testify, we would
11 like to provide a summary of, if you will, background
12 evidence that does not deal directly with the camp
13 itself, and that would be marked into evidence as an
14 exhibit which the witness would adopt. Then the
15 remainder of the witness's testimony would be provided
16 directly, through question and answer.
17 Of course, to the extent the statement were
18 used by the Defence to impeach the witness and they
19 wish to offer it, that would be one means of
20 introducing it. But in terms of introducing the bulk
21 of the statements as evidence of the Prosecution, that
22 was not our intention, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
24 Ms. Hollis. That being the case, I remind you that you
25 have to give us syntheses that are as exhaustive as
1 possible so that we are able to know, in all possible
2 details, what it is that the witness is about to tell
3 us, because this is what allows us to give to the
4 testimony its proper weight. We also make sure that
5 there will not be repetition, unnecessary repetition of
6 some facts or some issues.
7 There is something else we must deal with.
8 It is the points of agreement on facts and points of
9 law, try to see if the parties can agree on some points
10 of facts or on some points of law. Ideally, it would
11 be good that the parties could arrange for a meeting
12 between them, as is provided for by the Rules, a
13 meeting during which they would try to see if they can
14 reach an agreement on some points of facts and some
15 points of law. Also the Prosecution must comply with
16 its obligation, which is that it has to stipulate in a
17 particular document which are the points of facts and
18 the points of law which are in agreement and which are
19 those that are not in agreement with the Defence.
20 I will ask the parties to meet for that
21 particular purpose, so that Ms. Hollis, for the
22 Prosecutor, can give to the Trial Chamber this document
23 that I have just referred to.
24 How much time do the parties need? This
25 meeting should, of course, be organised as early as
1 possible, and the main thing is to tell the pre-trial
2 Judge what it is you have agreed upon during this
3 meeting. So could I maybe give you a month? Would
4 that be enough for you to give me this document I
5 referred to earlier, a document which we very much need
6 to complete the pre-trial procedures, because this
7 document, after the meeting between the parties,
8 establishes which are the points of facts and the
9 points of law on which there is or not an agreement
10 between the parties.
11 Ms. Hollis.
12 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we would suggest
13 that the Defence could not give any meaningful
14 assurances on this matter until they've had the benefit
15 of the disclosure that we have yet to make.
16 In addition to the witness statements that we
17 have discussed here today, the Prosecution does intend
18 to file a motion for adjudicated facts, for notice of
19 adjudicated facts. It would be necessary for the
20 Defence to have that motion before them as well.
21 Since we have set one month as a deadline for
22 disclosure of much of this information, the Prosecution
23 would suggest that there could really be no meaningful
24 exchange between the Prosecution and the Defence until
25 sometime after that, when they've had the opportunity
1 to digest the information given. So perhaps in six
2 weeks they may be able to participate meaningfully in
3 such a discussion, but we don't believe that it would
4 be productive to have a meeting much before six weeks
5 from now, for example.
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Mr. Vucicevic, I now turn to you. You have
8 heard what the Prosecution offers. It is true that it
9 does seem like a reasonable offer. Before any meeting,
10 you should both have the time to receive all the
11 information that you need. So that can be done within
12 a month. Then you need the time to study all this
13 information, and only then can you attend to this
14 meeting. It is only in these circumstances that the
15 meeting can be a productive one.
16 Ms. Hollis puts forward a deadline of six
17 weeks. What do you think about that?
18 MR. VUCICEVIC: I would agree. I think that
19 this is a very reasonable proposal by the OTP, and as
20 you indicated, Your Honour, we would need time to study
21 and constructively respond.
22 If I may add, Your Honour --
23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So I take it
24 that a meeting should be held between you and the
25 Prosecution in about six weeks, starting now.
1 MR. VUCICEVIC: In terms of scheduling, Your
2 Honour, if you are planning to have another Status
3 Conference, because we do reside and have offices on
4 two different continents, if you could combine those
5 two meetings, a hearing and a meeting in a -- closely
6 in proximity, within the same week, we would be glad to
7 attend both.
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Mr. Petrovic, yes.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
11 the proposal of the Prosecution is very reasonable. On
12 receipt of most of the material and the pre-trial brief
13 by the Prosecution, and possibly a brief -- or a motion
14 or a notice of adjudicated facts, we would be able to
15 discuss these matters two or three weeks after
16 receiving these.
17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 So let me remind you what the decision is on this
19 particular issue. In agreement with both the
20 Prosecution and the Defence, the parties will meet
21 within six weeks, in order to meet with their
22 obligation or, rather, the Prosecution's obligation to
23 establish which are the points of law and the points of
24 fact that can be agreed upon. The parties will also
25 discuss the various points on which they can agree or
1 the various points on which they cannot reach an
2 agreement. Then a document will be handed over to the
3 Judges of the Trial Chamber so that they can see what
4 the conclusion of the meeting is.
5 I thought that the number of witnesses would
6 be somewhat below 75, Ms. Hollis, to say the truth, in
7 view of the limited time frame and the limited
8 geographical zone in which the facts are set out in the
9 indictment, but it seems that there might be some
10 affidavit statements, and it seems also that you might
11 resort to the adjudicated facts procedure.
12 Ms. Hollis, could you tell us: Are you in a
13 position to tell us today, and maybe you can think of
14 what is happening within the framework of another case
15 which is currently heard by the Tribunal -- I'm
16 thinking about the Kvocka et al case -- do you think
17 that some of the witnesses that are testifying for this
18 case could be used for your case? Do you have some
19 witnesses testifying in this case which might come and
20 testify in our case? That's one question I wanted to
21 put to you.
22 The other question I have for you is the
23 following: You talked about adjudicated facts. Do you
24 think of using another case that has been heard by the
25 Tribunal, the Tadic case, to name it, as a reference in
1 terms of adjudicated facts? Because some facts that
2 have been discussed in this previous case are also
3 mentioned in our case, because the facts and the events
4 took place in the same area. Are you planning on using
5 these facts within the general framework of the
6 adjudicated facts procedure?
7 These are the two questions that I put to
8 you, and are you in a position to answer these now?
9 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, as to your
10 observation about the number of witnesses, of course,
11 in the proceedings before the Tribunal, not only must
12 the Prosecution prove the underlying substantive crime,
13 such as murder, beatings, persecutions, but we must
14 also prove what we call the common elements of the
15 Article in question. That entails, very often, more
16 witnesses than would be required if we had only to
17 prove the underlying substantive offences.
18 The motion for adjudicated facts could deal
19 with what many of those witnesses would testify to. So
20 to the extent that motion is either agreed upon by the
21 accused and their counsel, or the Trial Chamber rules
22 to accept those facts anyway, then that could obviate
23 the need for some witnesses and reduce the number.
24 In terms of whether we would use the facts
25 from the Tadic appeal decision, yes, indeed, Your
1 Honour, that is what we would look at, as well as some
2 facts that were decided in the Celebici and perhaps
3 some other cases.
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And as for
5 the affidavits issue, what are your plans? I see that
6 it is translated by "affidavits". That's not exactly
7 what I mean. You know what I mean, this statement
8 taken into very particular circumstances.
9 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. It's possible
10 that regarding witnesses who would testify only to
11 these common elements, that that testimony could be
12 introduced by way of deposition, which would expedite
13 the actual in-court proceedings for the trial. So that
14 is one possibility, and that is the type of witness the
15 Prosecution had in mind for deposition witnesses.
16 In addition to that, Your Honour, regarding
17 the affidavit witnesses that would be permitted under
18 Rule 94 ter, either affidavit or formal statement, that
19 is a Rule which has yet to be, perhaps, further
20 clarified in practice, but the Prosecution would think
21 that perhaps for some witnesses who are corroborating
22 others, that we would be able to find a means
23 acceptable to the Trial Chamber to provide that
24 evidence by way of a submission in keeping with
25 Rule 94 ter, whatever that would turn out to be.
1 In regard to the Kvocka case, the Prosecution
2 trial team you see before you, Your Honour, is the
3 trial team in the Kvocka case as well, so I can speak
4 with some knowledge about that case. We do anticipate
5 there will be witnesses in that case that would also be
6 witnesses to events in Keraterm regarding these
7 accused, and we are contemplating submitting a proposal
8 as to a, perhaps, innovative means by which that
9 testimony could be taken. But we have not yet fully
10 formulated our view on that, so we will be submitting
11 something regarding those witnesses. But it is,
12 indeed, possible that they will be called to testify in
13 this case as well, in one form or another.
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So that
15 would be by a means of deposition that is provided for
16 in Rule 71. This, of course, makes it possible for
17 witnesses not to have to come back a second time. It
18 is not necessary for them to come back and testify.
19 This, of course, allows us also to protect the rights
20 of the Defence, among which, of course, is the right to
21 cross-examine the witness, needless to say.
22 So I do hope that we will get from you,
23 Ms. Hollis, a document detailing what it is you plan to
24 do on this particular issue, and I do hope we can get
25 this document as quickly as possible. Can you help me
1 on this?
2 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour, we can do
3 that. I will tell you that certainly deposition would
4 be one way to deal with the matter. We were thinking
5 of something that is perhaps more innovative by way of
6 concurrent presentation of evidence, but we will make
7 that clearer in our submission.
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Is there anything that the Defence counsels would like
10 to say on this particular matter?
11 Yes, Mr. Vucicevic.
12 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour. It seems,
13 you know, this, as the Prosecutor named it, the
14 concurrent presentation of the evidence, we are going
15 back to the joinder of the accused, to a degree.
16 However --
17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Let me cut
18 you short, Mr. Vucicevic. I'm not asking you to argue
19 on this particular issue now. Let us wait for the
20 Prosecution's proposals. We are trying to study the
21 various things that are at our disposal, and in due
22 time, orally or in writing, you will have the
23 opportunity to submit your arguments. This is not the
24 time to do so. It is not the time to argue on a
25 particular procedure which none of us is familiar
1 with. We don't know what the Prosecution's offer will
3 MR. VUCICEVIC: Excellent, Your Honour. I do
4 thank you for your comments. I just wanted to know
5 that I would respectfully ask you to always keep in
6 high regard defendant's right to cross-examine the
7 witnesses against him, no matter in what forum they are
8 presented, whether it would be in the deposition, some
9 joint presentation, or any other means that you deem
10 fit. But we would like that to be preserved.
11 A quick point --
12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Whatever may
13 be the case, Mr. Vucicevic, this, of course, will be
14 done in full conformity with the Statute and with the
15 Rules of Procedure and Evidence. Everything that we do
16 here is done in full conformity with our Statute and
17 Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
18 MR. VUCICEVIC: Just one sentence. My
19 concern concerning judicial notice, because I'm fully
20 aware of the fact findings and presentation of evidence
21 in the Tadic case. I viewed all the videotapes from
22 that trial. However, the Defence in that case did not
23 contend the issues of commonality in the background.
24 The theory of the Defence was a mistaken identity.
25 Therefore, even though the Trial Chamber has passed on
1 those facts, but those facts, with a view of fair
2 cross-examination to the defendant would be wholly
3 inapplicable. Thank you.
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] As for the
5 question of judicial notice, we will also make a
6 decision when we will have obtained a clear offer from
7 the Prosecution.
8 Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
10 the Defence of the accused Damir Dosen is willing to
11 make every effort to expedite this trial, both by
12 deposition and in other ways, of course, provided that
13 testimony is not admitted unless we are able to
14 challenge it. Thank you.
15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 That's settled, I believe.
17 There is something else that I would like to
18 put to the Defence at this time. The Trial Chamber
19 would need to know how long, how much time you would
20 need. We also know that we want to move as forward as
21 quickly as possible. How much time you would need,
22 then, in order to be ready to start the trial. When
23 would you be able to start the trial?
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If you will
1 allow me, Your Honour, to respond on behalf of
2 Mr. Damir Dosen's Defence, it is hard to say at this
3 moment how much time we will need, because we are at
4 the very beginning of disclosure of the material which
5 is to be used in these proceedings. So I'm afraid that
6 any estimate would not really be good.
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Well, that
8 being the case, what I will ask you to do, then, is
9 that when you receive the documents, presumably you are
10 going to meet with the Prosecutor, as was said, within
11 six weeks, so I will ask you that during the next
12 Status Conference, the date of which will be set in a
13 minute, you give us an estimate at least of the time
14 that you need in order to be ready for trial. I think
15 that's the most reasonable and practical thing to do.
16 Please think about it, and I hope for an answer at the
17 next Status Conference, which would be set within the
18 next two months. So you have two months to think about
19 that, two months to come up with an estimate of the
20 time you need before you can be ready to start the
22 One last issue that I would wish to raise
23 before we completely run out of time -- and I thank the
24 interpreters for their patience and for their
25 endurance, thank you, because they are working extra
1 time, they were supposed to work for only one hour and
2 a half, and we've been working for over two hours now,
3 but we are reaching the end of the Status Conference,
4 rest assured -- there is a motion that has been
5 submitted by Mr. Kolundzija on March 17th. I think
6 that the Prosecution has until the end of this month to
7 answer to that motion. The motion is related to
8 interference with witnesses. It is alleged that the
9 Prosecution has tried to interfere with witnesses.
10 This, of course, will be looked into by the Trial
11 Chamber, the three Judges of the Trial Chamber.
12 But I would like to turn to Mr. Kolundzija's
13 Defence counsel. Is the Defence alleging that the
14 Prosecution witnesses are, in fact, being interfered
15 with? Are we talking about Prosecution witnesses
16 here? Are these the witnesses that we're talking about
17 at the very centre of the Defence motion?
18 You have to stand up, sir, and could you
19 please switch on your microphone. Microphone, sir,
21 MR. AARON: I beg your pardon, Your Honour.
22 The issue with that motion was interference with the
23 witnesses by Bosnian authorities, not by the
25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well,
1 then. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Aaron. So the
2 Bosnian authorities are alleged to interfere with
3 witnesses, so this has nothing to do with the
4 Prosecution interfering with them.
5 Do the Prosecution team members wish to say
6 anything on this particular issue?
7 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we're going to
8 submit a written response to this motion which, I
9 believe, is a motion that -- is a motion for discovery
10 and uses examples of alleged torture as a reason for
11 the remedies that are sought, and we will respond to
12 that motion.
13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
14 Ms. Hollis.
15 Unless either of the parties wishes to raise
16 other issues, because Status Conferences are
17 specifically designed for that, unless that is the
18 case, I will go on to the last item on the agenda,
19 i.e., the state of mind and the physical state of the
21 I now turn to the Defence. Mr. Petrovic,
22 Mr. Vucicevic, is there anything you would like to say
23 on this particular issue? Or is there any other issue
24 that you would wish to raise, other than the question
25 of the state of mind and the physical state of the
1 accused? Is there something you would wish to raise on
2 procedural matters, Mr. Petrovic?
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Mr. Vucicevic, what about you?
7 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, we don't have
8 anything to raise concerning the state of mind and
9 treatment of --
10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No, no,
11 no --
12 MR. VUCICEVIC: As far as my client.
13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No,
14 Mr. Vucicevic. Is there something else you would like
15 to talk about from a procedural point of view, anything
16 about the pre-trial proceedings, for example, that you
17 would wish to discuss?
18 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour. There
19 was -- when you requested of the Office of the
20 Prosecutor to submit all the witness statements, Madam
21 Hollis indicated that there would be a synopsis on the
22 background that is going to be attached to the witness
23 statements. If any of the documentation that is going
24 to be -- actually, any and all documentation that is
25 going to be submitted to the Trial Chamber, we would
1 like to receive the same copies so that we could be
2 adequately prepared. Point number 1.
3 Point number 2: In the mode of the
4 presentation of evidence, Madam Hollis indicated that
5 there is going to be a statement prepared to which a
6 witness is going to ask to agree before presenting his
7 evidence. I would deem that to be an infringement of
8 the defendant's right to confront the accuser against
9 him, because we will not be able to cross-examine those
10 pieces of papers. If they are facts, the witnesses
11 should testify. If not -- thank you.
12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
13 Mr. Vucicevic, Ms. Hollis relies on legal procedures.
14 The witnesses' statements are taken by the
15 Prosecution. In themselves, they are not considered as
16 evidence. They just make it possible for the
17 Prosecution to prepare itself to examine the witness.
18 So Ms. Hollis is not making up anything.
19 Ms. Hollis, is there anything you would wish
20 to discuss, from a procedural point of view, before I
21 close this part of the Status Conference?
22 MS. HOLLIS: No, Your Honour, and I don't
23 want to try your patience, but I do need to clarify
24 Mr. Vucicevic's understanding of what I attempted to
25 say earlier. The Prosecution does not intend to submit
1 witness statements, nor does it intend to submit a
2 synopsis attached to these witness statements, unless
3 something occurs during the trial that would lead us to
4 submit them in some way as evidence. If we did so, of
5 course the Defence would receive whatever we were to
6 provide to the Trial Chamber as evidence. So his
7 understanding of what I attempted to say earlier is
8 incorrect, and I apologise if I was not clear.
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. So that
11 would clarify that.
12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MR. VUCICEVIC: This does clarify the point.
14 Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 We will now go into private session. Closed session.
17 [Private session]
13 pages 282-284 redacted – private session
22 --- Whereupon the Status Conference
23 adjourned at 5.05 p.m.