1 Wednesday, 21
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, you have something to say.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. Just before my friends
8 recommence with the cross-examination, I just might say that our trial
9 support people have come up with a document, a two-page document which
10 appears to be in about six languages showing a measurement conversion
11 table for all kinds of things including square metres to square feet and
12 other conversion documents.
13 This may be of some assistance to everyone including myself since
14 I have difficulty with the conversion. My friends have no objection to
15 that being provided to the Court, and hopefully for the balance of our
16 witnesses, we will try also to provide some additional information to the
17 Court during the course of the trial to assist in the conversion, but this
18 is a start.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld. The document has been
20 provided to us, and we will be forever indebted to them.
21 Mr. Petrovic, it's your turn.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I begin?
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
24 WITNESS: WITNESS A [Resumed]
25 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:
1 Q. Good morning Witness A, my name is Vladimir Petrovic, and I'm
2 representing Damir Dosen.
3 In your testimony so far you mentioned that in the 1970s, in 1972,
4 I believe, you served with the Yugoslav Peoples' Army?
5 A. That is correct.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Will, please, the counsel and the witness pause
7 between question and answer.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Will you tell us briefly what was it like in the unit that you
10 served with?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are being asked to observe a pause between
12 question and answer.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I apologise.
14 Q. So could you, in a few words, describe to me the organisation of
15 your unit from the point of view of discipline, the relationship between
16 the soldiers and their superiors? What was it like at the time when you
17 did your military service?
18 A. In 1972 I was drafted in my town in Prijedor. I was a driver with
19 the army. I served in Benkovac. I spent three months attending a driving
20 course. I drove a tractor M-5 for the 155-millimetre howitzer. All three
21 peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina served the so-called Yugoslav Peoples' Army.
22 Q. Could you please tell me from the point of view of discipline?
23 A. Discipline was strict.
24 Q. Could you tell me what that means?
25 A. You had to be disciplined. You had to execute your military tasks
1 in time. If you failed to do something, you would be punished, and the
2 rule was execute and then complain.
3 Q. After your return from the JNA, did you become a reservist like
4 most other people?
5 A. I was a reservist in Banja Luka, in the Kozarac barracks, and I
6 twice attended military drills refreshing my knowledge at Manjaca but at
7 that time I was not a driver anymore. At that time I was engaged as a
8 marksman, a shooter.
9 Q. Tell us, at the time when you were invited to attend these drills
10 as a reservist, was the discipline again as strict as at the time that you
11 served in the army of Benkovac or not?
12 A. The discipline was not the same.
13 Q. And what was the difference?
14 A. The difference was that we did not have to be clean shaven or did
15 not have to have a tidy haircut. That is, perhaps, the principle thing I
16 can say now. And we were joking and buggering around while, when you did
17 your regular service, you had to have your hair cut, you had to shave
18 every morning so that was the difference.
19 Q. Now, if you can, please, will you compare in terms of discipline
20 and apply it to Keraterm? That is, did the guards who guarded Keraterm,
21 did they look to you like a disciplined unit, regardless of the type of
22 unit they were?
23 A. I can tell you that they did not behave as if they cared much
24 about discipline.
25 Q. Would you mind explaining it to us?
1 A. I can say that they were very -- they threw their weight about.
2 At times they would wear camouflage trousers and an olive-green grey
3 shirt. They were -- they did not shave, did not wear -- were untidy,
4 ill-treated people. I don't really know what to tell you, with the
5 exception of individuals who treated prisoners correctly. And before this
6 Honourable Court I must say that, and I said this about Kajin's shift and
7 Kole's shift, and the two of them, even though even amongst their ranks,
8 there were some undisciplined members but when they were around, nothing
9 could happen.
10 Q. So if I understand you well, when you say "undisciplined," it
11 means they disobeyed?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Now, I should like to go back to -- no. Just one more thing. So
14 you were -- you spent those two months or slightly over two months in
15 Keraterm. Did you have the impression that the orders there were issued
16 in the same manner in terms of the chain of command as in the JNA?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Will you please describe it?
19 A. Well, as you know, in JNA whoever is reporting has to stand to
20 attention, make three steps, raise his hand, salute, report, and at the
21 end of the report, if it is, for instance, let us take a lance corporal or
22 captain -- if a lance corporal is reporting to his captain, at the end of
23 the report, they would shake hands. And after that, they would again
24 salute and then he would either turn right or left, and then the lance
25 corporal could leave.
1 Q. So we can then conclude that that did not exist in Keraterm, far
2 from it?
3 A. Correct, far from it.
4 Q. Now, I should like to go back to the time when you were arrested
5 on the 31st of May, is that right?
6 A. It is.
7 Q. Can you tell me if you know - of course, if you don't, then you
8 won't tell me that - but persons who arrested you, and persons who guarded
9 Keraterm later on, did you have the impression that they were one and the
10 same unit or were they two different structures?
11 A. Well, if we look at it, there were some people who arrested and
12 others who guarded the men in Keraterm. Those men who arrested me I never
13 saw them in Keraterm even.
14 Q. If I am correct, you mentioned a man whom you saw also at the time
15 of your arrest and in Keraterm and you called him Joja?
16 A. Yes. He was the only one there. And Your Honours, there was a
17 village next to Bosanski Novi, that is the village was called Agici and
18 Joja came from Agici and he asked, "Is there somebody from Agici?" Two
19 teachers reported and the next day two people disappeared from dormitory
21 Q. So Joja came to Keraterm a few days later and took out two men
22 from Room 2?
23 A. No, you're not right. It wasn't a couple of days. It was two
24 days later. And if I am allowed to describe to the court how it happened.
25 Q. Yes, tell us briefly.
1 A. He entered the dormitory, Room 2, took his rifle off the shoulder,
2 put it beside him and sat down with us. And said, "Is there somebody from
3 Agici here?" So two men responded. And he asked them, "What are you?"
4 And they both said they were teachers. Then he said, "You're all going
5 for interrogation and those who are not guilty of anything will be
6 released, and if anyone is guilty of anything, I shall shoot him with my
7 own hands." And I never saw that man in Keraterm again.
8 Q. And did you see those two men whom he --
9 A. No, I never saw them in Keraterm again.
10 Q. So Joja was not a member of any of the guard units, of any of the
11 guard organisations in Keraterm, is it?
12 A. Yes, that is correct.
13 Q. You mentioned on various occasions a man whom you called Tomica.
14 Could you describe him to us?
15 A. Yes, I can. Tomica worked with Janic at Ambalazerka and I went
16 there every morning to get the merchandise. Well, if not every day, every
17 second day. He was short, stalwart, I would say sort of medium height.
18 Q. And what was he? Was he a guard or was he one of those who came
19 there from time to time, at shorter or longer intervals, to Keraterm? Do
20 you know that?
21 A. It is very difficult to say who was the guard in Keraterm, very
22 difficult. Apart from the commanders, very difficult to say who was the
23 guard, a proper guard there, because those -- all those who wore uniforms,
24 be they camouflage or the olive-green grey uniforms, they could all enter
25 the compound.
1 Q. On various occasions during your testimony you mentioned that
2 there were people who prevented the entry of those various uniformed
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you also confirm before this court that Kajin was one of
6 those who did his utmost to prevent those men from entering the camp?
7 A. I can tell to the court very honestly and truthfully, whenever
8 Kajin was present on his shift, and whenever he was in the compound, then
9 the likelihood of incidents was very slight. He was very correct. What I
10 do hold against Kajin, and what I saw often, is that he would often take
11 his motorbike or his car and leave the compound of Keraterm.
12 Q. Do you perhaps recollect one of those incidents when Kajin drove
13 away one of those visitors, if I may call them that?
14 A. There were many such occasions when Kajin was there. There were
15 many such situations. They come, "Come on, give us a man. We need him."
16 And he would never let them, especially in daylight. At night -- and I
17 repeat before this Honourable Court when he was present, that nothing
18 could happen, but I say again before this Honourable Court, that at times
19 Kajin was wont to leave the compound, that he would take his motorbike or
20 his vehicle and simply leave.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, could the witness clarify why he
22 held it against Kajin that he would leave the compound, that he would
23 often leave the compound? Why did that bother you?
24 A. It bothered me. It bothered me not every time, but mostly
25 whenever he left the compound, and then there would be an incident. Some
1 outsiders would come, call out, beat, and there was nobody to stop them.
2 And I believe that Kajin been there, those things would not have happened
3 because it was a correct shift.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Let us now try to establish something about the number of the
6 detained in Keraterm. In the beginning when you came, you said you were
7 the first ones, that there was nobody else in Keraterm at the time when
8 you arrived there?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. And how many people were there in Room 2 because that was the only
11 room at that time, wasn't it?
12 A. That was the only room at the time, Puharska, and I shall explain
13 to the Honourable Court, Puharska is a suburb locality with about 800
14 Muslim households. In Puharska there were less than two per cent of
15 Serbs, our neighbours. When the buses arrived to pick us up, some of the
16 buses went through Marica directly to Omarska, and as far as I can
17 remember, two buses, and I and my brother, were in them and yet another
18 bus, we went through Kozarac because this is a shortcut.
19 And when we arrived in Omarska, we were taken back to Keraterm.
20 As we entered it, the hall that is Room 2 was empty. That is the first
21 night, there were about two buses with some 50, 60 men each which means
22 roughly about 120 men that night.
23 The next day they brought people from the town, many of whom I
24 knew. They also brought more people from Puharska, from Gornja Puharska.
25 They also brought people from Cerici so that in three or four days' time,
1 the room was full. Three or four days -- after three or four days, there
2 were about 450 men in that room.
3 Q. Yesterday you mentioned the figure of 1.350, if I am correct. So
4 when did the detainees reach that figure?
5 A. It was about 15 or 20 days later that we reached that figure.
6 When we, from Puharska, were in the camp, I can tell the Honorable Court
7 the exact arrival of Sivci, that is how they arrived, village by village,
8 how people were being brought to the camp. If the Honorable Court wishes
9 me to do so, I will tell you.
10 Q. There is no need to go into all that, and I should like to go back
11 to the time of your interrogation.
12 Do you remember if on that day or the next day, you talked to
13 Kajin, what was it that you talked about, and what did Kajin tell you what
14 was your task?
15 A. I can, yes. After I was arrested and some 11 or 12 days later,
16 following my brother[redacted] , I was also taken for interrogation. And
17 then we returned to Room 1 because allegedly it was -- there was
18 interrogated one room, and those yet not interrogated another room. A day
19 or two later, Kajin, since he knew me, he told me, [redacted]
22 Q. And why did he pick you out?
23 A. Well, I suppose because he knew me.
24 Q. And there were other people there, weren't there?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you now describe briefly the room that you were kept in, that
2 is, first Room 2 and then Room 1? What I want to know is what has not
3 been elicited so far, that is, when you are in the room, when you are
4 behind the door, what can you see from Room 2 or after those 11 or 12
5 days, what could you see from Room 1?
6 A. From Room 2 you could not see anything, and I am saying this
7 before the Court, except when the door was open. And they allowed to keep
8 the door open because the lower part of the door is an aluminum plate but
9 above it are windows. From Room 1, until they put those additional bars
10 there, because it was very hot, I can tell the Honorable Court that the
11 temperature was between 37 or 38 degrees and at times soared up to 40
13 Q. So could you see something through those windows? You tell us
14 that it was aluminum and then above it was windows, so what are those
16 A. These were glass panes.
17 Q. And you could see through them?
18 A. You could see through them.
19 Q. And in Room 1?
20 A. In Room 1 there was an identical door with some -- after 25 days
21 of interrogation, men came from Bosno Montaza. They brought those bars,
22 and they welded those bars there and a small door. So welders came, but
23 they were not proper welders. And Saim Balagic, who was a professional
24 welder, one of those knew him and invited him to help him do that. So he
25 did both those doors in Room 1 and Room 2 and his award was half a
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. Now tell me, from Room 1 looking from right to left, and you must
3 still have this picture in your head; what do you see to the right? Do
4 you see the Keraterm fence? Can you see the road behind it?
5 A. You can see the main road and the fence.
6 Q. On your right-hand side?
7 A. If I stand like this, then to the right, yes. This is the
8 Prijedor-Banja Luka Road.
9 Q. So in front of you, you can see the area between dormitories 1 and
10 2, the weigh hut, isn't it?
11 A. Yes. And in front of Room 2 and in front of Room 1, you can see
12 the gate, you can see the weigh hut.
13 Q. So your field of vision covers this whole area in front of Rooms 1
14 and 2, in front of Room 1 and more to the side. And shall we make it
15 clear to the Court, what can you see in the direction of Rooms 3 and 4?
16 A. In the directions of Rooms 3 and 4 you can see this grass area,
17 the park, and the lamp post. That is, you can see practically the whole
18 Keraterm yard except just one small part which is at a dead angle and that
19 you can't see.
20 Q. So to all intents and purposes, from Room 1 you could see the
21 whole area in front of four dormitories?
22 A. No. You cannot see this whole area, but from the asphalt area
23 which separates those dormitories because there is a path, then there is a
24 park, that is an asphalt path, and over there you can, again, see the
25 park. And you could see it with the naked eye, all of it.
1 Q. At the time when you arrived in Keraterm were there some booths
2 for the guards?
3 A. No. There were machine-gun nests set up with canvas over them,
4 and around them there were two large boulders.
5 Q. But were the booths supplied later?
6 A. I cannot remember that.
7 Q. You say that there was a booth in front of Room 1, in the direct
8 view of Room 1?
9 A. No, I don't remember.
10 Q. Since you were, shall I say, [redacted]
11 [redacted] it that way, did ever any commander of the shifts request from
12 you to collect money or valuables, I mean Kajin or Kole?
13 A. No, never. Not a single shift commander even Fustar, even Fustar
14 in there, and his men and they were the worst. Even they did not do
15 that. But I once did have to collect some money and give it to a soldier
16 whom I did not know. And I suppose he was never even a guard in
18 Once again I repeat to the Honorable Court that in the Keraterm
19 compound, all, whoever wore a military uniform, a Muslim could put on such
20 a uniform, and whoever put on a uniform could enter the compound because
21 nobody has Serb or Croat on Muslim written on his forehead, and we all
22 look alike. We are all humans.
23 Q. Yesterday, you told us about the organisation of shifts in
24 Keraterm. Do you recollect if, in the beginning, during the first ten
25 days or a fortnight there were two shifts, and then later on --
1 A. Yes, I do remember. And those shifts did not -- were not on duty
2 for 12 hours, but on -- but for 24 hours. I can tell the Honorable Court
3 that nothing was properly organised at the time when we arrived. You
4 simply didn't know who was in command, who had to do what. And then it
5 was some five or six days later that the shifts were introduced. So in
6 the beginning everybody did as he pleased. There was no organisation at
8 Q. And in those early days, let us go back to that. Did you ever
9 notice the army guarding Keraterm rather than -- those men who came later?
10 A. Yes, every night, every night, not by day, but every night. Every
11 night, the TO, the so-called TO would come to reinforce the sentries
12 around, and I saw there some Kole, I saw Fustar who cried[redacted]when he
13 saw me, when he saw Sutka, when he saw Saeb. He said, "Look at Cucar,
14 look at Herga." I apologise to the Court, but I can't just watch it. I
15 can't do that. And he just turned on his heels and never came back.
16 Fustar brought a loaf of bread to split it amongst us and also
17 shed some tears and said, "I didn't have more money to buy any more, take
18 it from me, I'll never come back again here." And those are our friends,
20 Q. But we are not referring to Fustar who later on became a shift
22 A. No, no, no. That was a man who worked for Trgo Prodaja.
23 Q. You said yesterday that you had known Kajin before the war; is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Before the war he was not a policeman; do you know this?
2 A. No, he was not.
3 Q. You certainly know that people who provided security for -- in
4 Keraterm were reserve police officers?
5 A. I do not know what they were, whether they were the reserve
6 policemen or they were military. The only thing I saw was Gruja, who was
7 wearing a police uniform. He was a wonderful man. Occasionally he would
8 give us cigarettes. He would sometimes swing the baton to -- as if he
9 were going to hit someone and then he would just put it down and said, "I
10 never hit anybody. I won't do it now." He would come at night as
12 Q. Does that mean that in addition to the regular guards, at night
13 other persons also joined in the guard duties, you said, like Territorial
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell me, in Room number 4, let's say until the middle of
17 June, maybe even beyond that, what was in that room, do you know?
18 A. In that room, there was -- there was various goods.
19 Q. Were there any Serb prisoners in Keraterm during that period, if
20 you know?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Yesterday you mentioned that in some shifts, the doors to the
23 rooms were being locked. Why? Why was it important to have the doors
25 A. The doors to the room, when the additional bars were welded on,
1 padlocks were put on. That was about 20, 25 days after we came in. I
2 think that this was done for our safety so that no one who would come in
3 would be able to walk in and beat people, which is what used to happen
4 before the padlocks were put in.
5 Q. Were the doors locked in Kajin's shift?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Yesterday you said about difficult conditions in -- prevailing in
8 Keraterm. Do you remember a situation, some situation in which Kajin
9 helped some men being transferred to the hospital for treatment? Do you
10 remember something like that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you please expand on that answer?
13 A. Yes, I can. Sengin was beaten up. Several people were beaten
14 up. I'm not going to say that it was -- whether that was Kajin's, Kole's
15 or Fustar's shift, but a van arrived and then they took these people to be
16 treated, and then they were brought back.
17 Q. Where were they taken, to the hospital?
18 A. Probably to the hospital.
19 Q. You mentioned that people had a lot of lice at that time. Do you
20 remember whether anybody came to give them some powder against lice or
21 somebody came to give men the haircut?
22 A. Yes, I remember well.
23 Q. Can you please tell us this?
24 A. Mica, who had an arm missing, came to help people who had
25 dysentery, to give them tablets. Even I went there even though I was not
1 suffering from dysentery. Fortunately a soldier approached me and said,
2 "What do you want?" I said, "I need tablets." And he said, "Go back to
3 your room." Whoever had come for these tablets received beatings and that
4 came on the orders of Mica.
5 Q. Was somebody put in charge of giving inmates haircuts?
6 A. There was people -- we did it among ourselves. This was done in
7 front of Room number 4. There was a man who would just shave people's
9 Q. You mentioned Ziga and Duca yesterday. Can you tell me about
10 Ziga? Was he a guard or was he somebody who would come from outside, or
11 was he perhaps first one and then the other?
12 A. I do not like to offend people but whatever I would say about
13 Zigic would not be enough. He was a murderer. He was a rover. He was
14 all over town. At one stretch he did not sleep for three days and three
15 nights. Who could do that? If -- it was nothing for him to kill a
16 person. He was enjoying his bloody deeds. He seemed to be on drugs.
17 Q. If I understand you correctly, Ziga and Duca were bullies. They
18 freely entered the Keraterm and they just did whatever they wanted to the
19 prisoners, including killing Serbs, if they want to?
20 A. Yes, you're right, sir. In order to satisfy their instincts, they
21 would even kill Serbs.
22 Q. Were they listening to anyone's orders?
23 A. No, no one's orders. They did whatever they wanted.
24 Q. Yesterday you mentioned that together with Drago Tokmadzic,
25 somebody else was also beaten. Can you tell us who this was?
1 A. Drago Tokmadzic and Spija, I remembered the name of my colleague,
2 and it is Kole's colleague. He was a driver. When I -- when his wife
3 came to deliver some food and he asked, "Where is Spija?" And I said, "He
4 was killed." And then he hit his head against the pole and he said, "Who
5 did this?"
6 Q. If I remember correctly, you said that Goran Lajic had done it, a
7 man from Fustar's shift?
8 A. Yes. I don't know his first name. Drago Tokmadzic was a
9 policeman and Lajic worked in a coffee bar that worked all night. When
10 all the other places were closed, we would all go there, to that bar. And
11 he told Lajic once, "It's time for you to go home." And when he -- and
12 when Lajic was beating, he was reminding him of what he had told him.
13 Q. So you saw Lajic beating Tokmadzic and the reason why he later ran
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. At one point yesterday you said that Kajin apologised for what he
17 did. I'm going to remind you of a situation, and tell me if that is what
18 it was in reference to. After the event in Room 3 when he threw away his
19 pistol and he apologised to you in front of Rooms 1 and 2, is that the
21 A. No.
22 Q. But do you recall what I'm trying to remind you of now?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Can you please tell me what that was?
25 A. That night Kajin left, if I -- his duty post, if I can call it
1 that. Several people were taken out and beaten up. When Kajin returned,
2 probably some of the guards told him what had transpired. Kajin came in
3 front of Room number -- Rooms number 1 and 2. Your Honours, believe it or
4 not, the man was in tears. He was cursing and yelling, "Who did this?"
5 And cursing their mothers. "Is this what could happen?" Again, let me
6 say, regarding Kole's and Kajin's shifts, when they were present, when
7 Kajin did not leave, nothing happened. If only everybody was like that,
8 had been like that, not that many of us would have perished.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: This was before the Room 3 incident?
10 A. Correct.
11 MR. PETROVIC:
12 Q. Maybe go on.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, let me take you back to the events that followed your release
15 from Trnopolje. I understood you to have said yesterday that Kajin, with
16 two other men, one was Dugi and there was a third man came to visit you as
17 a friend?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. This was almost nine years ago now. Many details of that
20 conversation you have probably forgotten. Would you agree with that?
21 A. I will never forget it, never.
22 Q. What will you never forget?
23 A. What happened in the camp.
24 Q. Sorry, I apologise. I'm referring to the Kajin's visit to your
25 home. I have no doubt that you will never forget what you experienced in
1 the camp, but the details of the conversation you held in your house,
2 would you allow that perhaps after nine years some details may be
4 A. Of course they can. If one is capable of forgetting them.
5 Q. What I'm putting to you, sir, is that Kajin told you that he had
6 not taken part in the attack on Kozarac but that he passed through Kozarac
7 after the attack on Kozarac. Would you allow that this could be what
9 A. What I can say to Their Honours is verbatim what Kajin told me
11 Q. Very well. You knew Kajin's father well?
12 A. Quite well.
13 Q. Can you tell us what kind of a man he was?
14 A. He was a wonderful man. He was a noble man, a family man. This
15 was a honest family in that regard. My colleagues -- Kole and Kajin were
16 my colleagues. We all socialised. I never once felt that they hated
17 Muslims or vice versa. I would like this court to find the real culprits,
18 those who ordered in Prijedor to -- for all this to happen. There were 30
19 to 40 per cent of mixed marriages in Prijedor. I never distinguished
20 between the Muslims and Serbs and I had more Serb friends than Muslim. I
21 cannot fathom how this could have happened in my town. This was Kozara.
22 Kozara was famous in World War II. Everybody defended the old Yugoslavia
23 together, both Serbs and Muslims. And now, they are fighting each other.
24 Had Muslims wanted to do this to the Serbs, then I would have
25 congratulated Serbs for having event --
1 Q. Who, sir? Who is the culprit?
2 A. It was Zeljaja Kuruzovic who taught our children this.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness A, would you like a moment to compose
4 yourself? Perhaps have some water?
5 A. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you in a position to continue now?
7 A. Yes, I can.
8 MR. PETROVIC:
9 Q. In addition to those whom you mentioned, are there others whom we
10 should see here in -- instead of the ones who are in the dock?
11 A. I know that Srdo Srdic was the SDS president. And this was a
12 party of that -- of those who were whipping up hatred. I used to live in
13 Nurija and I was looking for Muro, [redacted]. And he is asking
14 me, "Where is Muro?" And I didn't tell him where he was -- didn't tell
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
19 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the witness has mentioned his first
20 name twice.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. The last thing I have to ask of you, the one that is here today,
23 you had known him before the war, you knew him at Keraterm? What do you
24 know about this man keeping in mind what you have just told us?
25 A. If you are asking me for my opinion not only about Kajin, but the
1 entire family, it was an honest family. It was a working family. This
2 Kajin socialised with Muslims.
3 The only thing I object to Kajin, and this is what I am saying in
4 front of these Honorable Judges, why did he have to leave his shift? Why
5 did he have to get on his motorcycle and go? I don't know what the reason
6 was, but as soon as he left, there was trouble.
7 I'm saying here publicly to Their Honours, I never saw in Keraterm
8 camp that Kajin hit anyone, that he mistreated anyone. But I am not going
9 to say about what other people saw. I am saying about what I saw.
10 Q. Do you know, perhaps, that several weeks before Keraterm, Kajin
11 lost a child?
12 A. No, I do not know that.
13 Q. So that means that you did not know anything about his personal
14 problems at the time?
15 A. No.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, no more questions.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Vucicevic.
18 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Vucicevic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness A. I know that this is
21 very difficult for you. This is why I will start with questions which
22 probably will bring back memories of moments that may have been slightly
23 different from the most of what you experienced in the camp.
24 Yesterday you said that occasionally your father would bring you
25 food; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. However, in addition to your father, your wife also was bringing
4 A. Yes, she came on one occasion.
5 Q. Was this during Kole's shift?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. On that occasion did your wife personally hand you the food?
8 A. Yes. I can tell Their Honours how this happened.
9 Q. With Their Honours' permission, will you please do so.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: If it's necessary.
11 MR. VUCICEVIC: I think it is necessary. It goes to the mens rea,
12 Your Honour.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Will you please say what happened on that
23 [redacted] each other and if not, whatever." My wife didn't do
25 When I came -- when I went out and kissed my wife, Kole took the
1 rifle, point at me and said, "You can go back." And I said, "What are you
2 doing, Kole?" And he said, "Don't worry, old man, you'll be all right
3 soon." And I want to thank him for this.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you go on, Witness A, please remember you
5 are here under protection, and one element of the protection is that you
6 have the benefit of a pseudonym. So your name should not be mentioned,
7 neither should your nickname. So please avoid references to your name or
9 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Yesterday you gave evidence that your father would come quite
11 frequently to deliver food and that he also was doing it, for the most
12 part, during Kole's shift; is that correct?
13 A. No, my father also came during other shifts.
14 Q. However, during -- on one occasion, if you remember, your father
15 brought something and, in fact, either you or someone else wanted to give
16 this to Kole as a present; do you remember this?
17 A. No, I do not remember that. I don't remember that we wanted to
18 give Kole a present. I only remember on one occasion during Kole's shift,
19 my father had brought some food, Kole personally took it, brought it to
20 me. I said, "Could my father bring some extra food during your shift?"
21 And he said, "You can bring as much as you'd like. I will take it." I
22 told my father, "Please go and buy as much bread as possible."
23 [Accused Dosen withdraws]
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies. I just
1 noticed that my client has been taken out to the hospital [sic] to compose
2 himself. I would request to perhaps take a quick break and then
3 continue. This was very emotional testimony for him too. I believe that
4 he should be present during the rest of the testimony of Witness A.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: It has been brought to our attention that your
6 client needed to go to the bathroom and we were in agreement with that.
7 We don't think it is absolutely necessary to take an adjournment if he's
8 going to be away for a very short time. Let me consult with the Chamber.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we are of the view that if he is away for a
11 short time, say ten minutes, we'll continue. If he's away for longer than
12 that, then we'll just take an early adjournment.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I really don't know. He came out
14 in tears. May I leave the courtroom and see what is going on with him and
15 I can come back and inform the Trial Chamber? So may I have your leave to
16 do that?
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
18 MR. VUCICEVIC: May I proceed, Your Honours?
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Yesterday, sir, you testified about an incident that a flag from
22 the mosque was brought into the camp?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. And you testified what Kole did to a Muslim inmate who attempted
25 to burn this flag?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. But you didn't tell us what Kole did with that flag afterwards.
3 If you remember, can you say what he did?
4 A. Yes, I can.
5 Q. Please go ahead.
6 A. Kole kicked him, this little Aco. He said, "Take this flag and
7 put it away there." And that day that flag was sitting there. After that
8 I never saw it again.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, I apologise.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, too. Can I ask for a
11 ten-minute break, and after that he will be able to continue.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, we are sensitive to the request
14 that you have made, and mindful of the provisions of the Statute which
15 provides for the accused to be present during his trial.
16 We are not encouraging motions of this kind, but what we'll do is
17 we'll take the break now and return at 11.00.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?
22 MR. PETROVIC: Your Honours, I wish to apologise once again for
23 the interruption, and I wish to say that Mr. Damir Dosen's counsel are
24 fully aware of all the statutory provisions, and if you deem that
25 necessary, we are quite ready to obtain reports from the detention unit
1 about the mental health of our client and the treatment he is undergoing,
2 and which I believe has to do with what happened today and which explains
3 why and how it happened today.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't think that that is necessary at this
5 stage, Mr. Petrovic.
6 I should say that we will take the luncheon adjournment a little
7 early today at 12.30, resume at 2.00 and have a slightly longer afternoon
8 session until 4.15, with a very short break at an appropriate time.
9 Mr. Vucicevic?
10 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. [Interpretation].
11 Q. Witness, the lavatory facilities in the Keraterm factory and
12 subsequently Keraterm camp, you were detained there, you used the same
13 facilities, didn't you, as the workers who had worked there before that;
14 is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is correct. There was one lavatory and we all used that
17 Q. However, this one lavatory, did it have several bowls or was it a
18 squatting facility?
19 A. It was -- there were three squatting facilities.
20 Q. However, to urine -- for urination, there was separate facility,
21 rather primitive, with just a small conduit and a low wall; is that
23 A. Yes, that is correct. That was the shower booth.
24 Q. So that five, six, seven men could relieve themselves at the same
25 time there, isn't it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. As for water, drinking water, and for the laundry or refreshment,
3 you used water from a water pumps, isn't it?
4 A. Yes, but I must add for the court, in the early days, those fire
5 water pumps were not fitted properly for us to use that water so that we
6 fought over them, and depended on shifts. There were some barrels and
7 there was a van. Tomica drove it. And Kole allowed water to be brought
8 to the camp and be distributed among the detainees.
9 Q. The shortage of water in the water supply system, or rather as you
10 call them, water pumps, there was a shortage only when the power was cut,
11 was off, isn't it?
12 A. No. We used them only when they fitted up properly because a hose
13 was brought and it was a hundred metres long and during Kole's shift and
14 Kajin's shift, too, we would wash ourselves, we could refresh ourselves,
15 pour some water into plastic bottles and take them to our dormitories,
16 because these two shifts did not ban us from -- did not prohibit us from
17 taking water into dormitories.
18 Q. In addition to that, there was also water -- this matter of supply
19 with water, the military would bring water cisterns to the camp, isn't it?
20 A. Yes. Some 15 days before we were to leave the Keraterm, yes, a
21 fire cistern came and there was another grey painted cistern. I do not
22 know which company in Prijedor it belonged to, and there was also a yellow
23 painted one which came from the public utilities company. I know the Serb
24 driver from this public utility service which brought it.
25 Q. And the driver of that cistern or water tank, was it -- were they
1 civilians or were they military persons?
2 A. The drivers wore uniforms.
3 Q. Do you remember what uniforms?
4 A. They were olive-green grey uniforms. They were not camouflage
6 Q. So they those were military uniforms, weren't they?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know the name of the driver? I believe you mentioned it,
9 the driver who brought the water?
10 A. I cannot remember his name but he lived not far from where I
11 lived, some 400 or 500 metres away.
12 Q. Thank you. I thought you knew the name but this is also a very
13 satisfactory answer. Thank you very much.
14 However, these days in the summer of 1992 were very hot, you
15 already testified about this, do you remember if Kole took groups of
16 detainees to a well in the neighbourhood to get some water?
17 A. I did say so already when we arrived, the hydrants were not fitted
18 yet. There was not a hose so that one could use the water. They
19 didn't -- didn't know what to do with us.
20 And there were a couple of large plastic barrels, and there was a
21 van there. I remember it well. And Tomica, with Kole's permission, and a
22 couple of prisoners would go to fetch that water. I never went to fetch
23 that water, but those who did know were those wells were. This water was
24 icy, and that's why I believe that it came from natural wells.
25 Q. Did you have an opportunity to drink that water?
1 A. Yes, I did have an opportunity to drink that water.
2 Q. As regards food, in the early days when you arrived, that food,
3 bread was unloaded as you told us at a corner, at the corner of Room 2 and
4 that other part of the building which juts out. However, a few days
5 later, if you remember, the food -- they began to bring food by trucks; is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. And the bread was also brought at different times of the day, but
9 it was not unloaded at that place any longer, it was left on the upper
10 floor; is that correct?
11 A. No, that is not correct.
12 Q. Do you remember if the detainees took part in the slicing of bread
13 which was brought in loaves?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And where was that bread prepared for distribution to the
17 A. I had the opportunity of seeing it personally and even being
18 present there. The bread was sliced, and as soon as the door would be
19 opened next to dormitory 2, there was a table and bread slicer. And I
20 think that that slicer belonged to the Keraterm personnel, [redacted]
25 Q. And those two women who distributed food, they also worked there
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 as cooks, didn't they?
2 A. Yes, they did. There was a shorter one, her name was --
3 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me for interrupting, I have
4 to butt in. [In English] With your permission, Your Honours, because we
5 intend to call one of the ladies that distributed the food, and she will
6 be a protected witness for her wishes. That's why I didn't want her name
7 to come out.
8 The witness has testified that he knows them, and if I explain do
9 you know why I interrupted him because I didn't think it would be
10 something that would be proper with the view on protection of witnesses.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that was quite appropriate. Please
13 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. However, you said that you knew those two women who were
15 distributing food. Are you aware that one of them is married to a Muslim?
16 A. Yes. The name of her husband is familiar to me.
17 Q. Right. So one of them is married to a Muslim?
18 A. My friend, yes, a friend of mine.
19 Q. And when those two women distributed food, did they treat you
20 roughly or did they distribute the food normally as they used to do in the
21 workers' canteens beforehand?
22 A. I'm speaking about myself. No, they did not treat me roughly
23 because they knew me. And I should like to seize this opportunity to say,
24 I feel I have to do that, that that -- the wife of this friend of -- this
25 Muslim friend of mine, brought two kilograms of sugar to me and Avdo
1 Drljaca who was there and who was a male nurse and he was one of us, that
2 sugar saved the life of many of us.
3 Q. You testified that during Kole's shifts nobody was ill-treated. I
4 should like now to draw your attention to some specific details. Did you
5 ever see any detainee being beaten in -- while queueing for food on Kole's
7 A. I never saw that during Kole's shifts.
8 Q. Would you have heard of that?
9 A. Yes. I suppose I would have heard of any such incident during --
10 from other detainees.
11 Q. But you never heard from any detainee that somebody was
12 ill-treated while queueing for food?
13 A. No, I never heard that.
14 Q. Yesterday you testified about Kole gave out food that was brought
15 for guards, but how he gave that food to weakly prisoners, to sickly
16 prisoners. Did he do that himself or did he ask you, [redacted]
17 [redacted], to select the detainees who would be given that food? If you
18 remember that.
19 A. He never asked me to select the prisoners who would need that. I
20 saw Kole on two or three occasions bring soldiers -- mess tins and I would
21 see him come to the -- to dormitory 2, and would call out those under age
22 and those hungry and tell them, "Come out and get this food."
23 Q. You said how one of the soldiers on an occasion kicked those
24 vessels with food. Was that one of those soldiers who brought the food?
25 A. I do not think so. Kole would bring this food, put the mess tin
1 down, go back to his hut, and they would sit there. There would be a fire
2 because they would have something roasting there and they would be eating,
3 perhaps drinking. I could see some alcohol there so they may have been
4 drinking. And once this food was kicked off, I do not know whether Kole
5 saw that or didn't. Whether he could see it or not, I cannot say.
6 Q. But at that time, as you testified yesterday, is that you believed
7 that had Kole seen that, he would have prevented that or punished those
8 who had done that?
9 A. There is no doubt about that.
10 Q. You mentioned that guards prepared -- that the guards had roasted
11 a pig on one occasion -- not on one occasion, on various occasions; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. Did you also help them on one such occasion to prepare a lamb? I
15 believe it was a lamb, to prepare a lamb that they would put on a spit and
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 Q. Were you present next to the fire as the lamb roasted?
19 A. No. I was not present even if they tried to keep me there but I
20 went to the dormitory.
21 Q. And before you went to the dormitory, did Kole offer you something
22 in reward for what you had done?
23 A. He asked me to take a piece of that pig, of that lamb, and have
24 it, and I said I could not. So I took a beer and I gave it to Said
25 Hrgic. And later on, afterwards, I saw Aco and Ilko carry a large slice
1 of meat and eat it, and they even brought it to the dormitory.
2 Q. Did you talk to Kole on various occasions, on many occasions? Did
3 you talk with Kole while he served as a guard in Keraterm?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you even several times sat with him on a bunker next to the
6 machine-gun, isn't it?
7 A. Yes, that is true, but I wasn't sitting there alone. There was
8 another guy who was called Dudo and another one was called Said. We were
9 quite free. Kole would take off his shirt to get some sun tan and we
10 could chat. At times he would give us a cigarette or two. We talked and
11 he disagreed with things that were going on in Keraterm, and I'm quite
12 confident about that.
13 Q. Right. So your testimony today on the basis of these numerous
14 conversations that you had with Kole was that he disagreed with the things
15 that went on in Keraterm?
16 A. Yes. That I'm quite positive. And I can vouch for that before
17 this Honourable Court. And let me say one more thing, I am sorry because
18 some people lost brothers, fathers, whole families, and it happened during
19 Kole's shifts and I'm really sorry that these things happened during
20 Kole's shift, and it is very difficult to say anything -- it is very
21 difficult to defend any of those things, but I'm here to tell the truth,
22 and I will speak only the truth and truth only, and rest assured that I am
23 speaking the truth and nothing but the truth.
24 Q. However, when you mentioned that fatal night, the first thing you
25 said yesterday was that when the gun-fire started, Kole ran to the place
1 that you pointed to us yesterday. Where was it that he came from?
2 A. He came from the hut. I saw him running, turning, shouting,
3 cursing, "Fuck you. Don't fire in this direction. Stop the fire. Give
4 the hose to men in the room." But nobody listened to him.
5 Q. Witness A, Witness A, you again used the word "in this
6 direction." Yesterday you also said "in this direction." And you said it
7 two or three times. However, to make it quite clear, what the words "in
8 this direction" mean in our language -- I should like to give you a few
9 examples, and if you agree, you please tell us so and if you disagree,
10 again tell us so.
11 If I said we, the Defence counsel, are in this direction, and the
12 Prosecution are in that direction, would that be correct?
13 A. Yes, that will be correct to my mind, but at that moment, since
14 there were some stray bullets, at that time his words was, "Don't fire in
15 this direction," but the moment he said, "Break the window. Give the
16 water and the hose to men," then naturally, it had to do with dormitory
17 3. At least that is how I see that.
18 Q. Yes. So a man who in one breath says, "Don't, stop fire," curses
19 at those who are firing and he says, while the fire -- while there are
20 flames about, "Give them a hose," you do not understand this as his giving
21 orders to open fire on Room 3? He is requesting that all shooting stop at
22 any of the rooms, at all the rooms, because otherwise you cannot put a
23 hose in without stopping the fire, isn't it?
24 A. Yes, that is correct. And I believe, and I think, and I'm
25 positive, that Kole meant Room 3 and that he wanted to prevent what then
1 happened. I repeat to the court once again, I wish it happened during
2 Fustar's shift because it was the worst of all of them, but I repeat,
3 during Kajin's shift and Kole's shifts, I wish everybody was like them
4 because, in that case, very few out of us would have perished and there
5 wouldn't be trucks taking away the dead every day.
6 Q. Let us just go back to some more general matters. There were no
7 callouts on any night when Kole's shift was on duty, that is nobody was
8 called out and ill-treated during his shifts; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that is correct. One -- on one occasion, it happened a stray
10 soldier, if I call him that, came from the road - from where, I don't know
11 - and he was there and asked that somebody come out from the dormitory.
12 I forget the name, and then Kole did not allow that, and that soldier
13 said, "Well, then, I'll open fire on the dormitory," and Kole got his
14 automatic rifle and said, "Yes, friend, if you open fire on a dormitory,
15 I'll open fire on you."
16 Q. So Kole was quite ready to fire at a Serb in order to protect men
17 he was guarding, his townsmen?
18 A. Well, hearing what -- having heard what Kole said, I'm quite sure
19 that he would have done that, because for Kole, for Kajin -- Kole and
20 Kajin did not distinguish Muslims from others because they socialised with
21 Muslims quite often. And I should also like to point out, because this is
22 not the end, I shall give you more answers, I should like to hear from
23 them, I should like to hear it from them, who ordered -- whose -- who did
24 the orders come from to do to Prijedor what was done? It was from Srdic,
25 from Zeljaja, who did all sorts of horrific things around places, who did
1 no end of harm to the Muslim people.
2 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I find that at certain moments the
3 witness is going a little broader, but being that he is a victim and very
4 emotional to him, I would relinquish that respectfully to you if he needs
5 to be --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I had a specific question to raise. I
7 didn't quite follow the point that you were seeking to make when you asked
8 the witness about a special meaning in your language of "in this
10 Witness A, I'd like to ask you quite plainly, when Kole said,
11 "Don't fire in this direction," did you understand him to mean, "Don't
12 fire in the direction of Rooms 1 and 2 but direct your fire at Room 3"?
13 A. Your Honours, that is not how I thought. Let me repeat. Kole
14 said, "Don't shoot over here." There were stray bullets, because these
15 stray bullets were going in the directions of Rooms 1 and 2. At that same
16 time without stopping, he said, "Break the windows, stop shooting, and put
17 in the hose in the room."
18 Your Honours, that was in reference to Room 3.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue.
20 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. In an interview that you had with the OTP investigator, Mr. Smyth,
22 on the 16th and 17th August, you gave evidence where you quoted an
23 instance when Kole came during another shift to save a prisoner who was
24 being beaten; do you recall that?
25 A. Yes, I recall that very well.
1 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how this happened?
2 A. Yes, I can.
3 Q. Please do.
4 A. One night, several people were called out to be beaten. I
5 recognised the scream of [redacted]. His last name was Seferovic. His
6 father was a baker. Suddenly I saw Kole running in the compound. He
7 said, "What are you doing? You go back into the room." And he said it
8 rather curtly. And people went back in. So further mistreatment and
9 beating was prevented.
10 I never saw Kole in another shift. I don't know how he came there
11 that night.
12 Q. You testified that whoever was wearing uniform could come and
13 enter the Keraterm camp. Did this happen during Kole's shift?
14 A. Yes, they would come.
15 Q. And the people who would come in during Kole's shift, could they
16 mistreat prisoners?
17 A. No. I remember once during Kole's shift Dusko Celica entered the
18 room and they said, "Celica, go out." And he said, "I'm better with
19 Ustashas in here than with you Chetniks out there." This is what Dusko
21 Q. Did anybody abuse him because of that joke?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And in the -- during the notorious shift, what would have happened
24 to such a person, can you tell us?
25 A. No one could say what would have happened to him.
1 Q. Yesterday you testified about the beating and murder of Professor
2 Hergic. Would you agree with me that this happened on 24 July in the
3 course of the day, that is during the day shift, that is, in the period of
4 between 6.00 in the morning and 6.00 in the afternoon?
5 A. No, I cannot recall the date. I said that we did not know what
6 day of the week it was; Monday, Tuesday, Friday. Believe me, I had -- I
7 kept no track of the days, let alone dates. I cannot recall the date.
8 Q. But if you will remember, you testified that this happened during
9 the day, and during the night was when the incident in Room 3 took place?
10 A. No. This did not happen on the same day. Besim was killed when
11 people from Brdo were brought in and unloaded next to the scales on the
12 grassy area. That's when Besim was mistreated. And these men were then
13 locked up for 10 or 15 days before they were all killed.
14 Q. On the day when the massacre in Room 3 took place, of course your
15 testimony is that this took place during the night, but during that day,
16 was there any mistreatment of prisoners during -- on the eve of the
18 A. I cannot recall, and I don't remember whether there was any
19 mistreatment, but I believe there was none.
20 Q. On that day, the room -- the door to your room was closed at dusk
21 like any other day; is that correct?
22 A. Not the door but the bars. The door was open. The door was
23 opening on the inside, and then the bars were welded on and there was a
24 door in that -- that barred part with a padlock.
25 Q. Do you remember whether Kole that night closed the door at dusk
1 like any other night?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You testified that between 4.00 and 4.30 in the afternoon on that
4 day, you saw a power generator in front of Room 3?
5 A. Yes, I did see it, but not in front of Room 3 but across from the
6 Room 3, across from the grassy patch and the asphalt walkway on the
7 grass. If necessary, we can have the picture of Keraterm back, and I can
8 point exactly the place where these power generator and the two school
9 desks were placed.
10 Q. When you talked with Mr. Smyth in your home in August, you said
11 that you had seen Kole after Keraterm was disbanded, and you said that
12 there was a car which had a Brcko licence plate?
13 A. Yes, this was a black Volga car.
14 Q. Can you tell us, what is the licence plate letters for Brcko?
15 A. Yes, the letters of B and C with a diacritic.
16 Q. And Prijedor's licence plates?
17 A. P, D.
18 Q. When Kole testifies he will say that he never drove a car with
19 Brcko licence plates. It was indeed a Volga make, but with Prijedor
20 licence plates. Is it possible that during your conversation with the
21 investigator you may have thought that Kole was transferred to Brcko as
22 punishment and that this idea in your mind made you think that the licence
23 plate which you saw on the car that he was driving was carrying a Brcko
24 licence plate?
25 A. That is not possible. I'm going to explain to the Trial Chamber
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 these licence plates. When a person buys a car in Zagreb, within one
2 month he has to transfer the registration locally in Prijedor and take
3 local Prijedor licence plates.
4 I never said that Kole went to Brcko to kill people. Maybe he
5 bought a black Volga there, but the black Volga did have these licence
6 plates when I saw him, B and C with a diacritic which stands for Brcko.
7 Q. Yesterday you testified that at first there were three shifts, and
8 today when Mr. Petrovic asked you, you recalled and said that at first
9 there were two shifts and later on three shifts.
10 A. Yes, that is correct. For several days there were only two shifts
11 which had up to 24-hour duties. But later on when they got better
12 organised, there were three shifts working from 6.00 to 6.00.
13 Q. Would you agree with me that at first, while there were only two
14 shifts, Kole was only a guard?
15 A. I would agree with you, because for several days everybody was
16 guards until they restructured themselves so that there was some semblance
17 of organisation there. So that there was -- somebody was a commander and
18 so on.
19 Q. Do you know whether there were shift leaders at first when there
20 were only two shifts? And if you do, who were these individuals?
21 A. No. At that point the organisation was practically zero.
22 Q. Was this the period when most of the beating took place?
23 A. More of those incidents took place than after they became
25 Q. To the best of your recollection, while Kole was on duty, was he
1 always in the camp, he was not absent?
2 A. I recall well that Kole was present, but I don't know whether he
3 was leaving the camp or not, but when he would leave, his deputy Batan
4 would carry on with the tasks as honestly as Kole did. And for the rest,
5 you know what happened to us.
6 Q. Do you remember that once Kole went to take a prisoner home to
7 visit his family and to take a change of clothes, if you know?
8 A. I cannot recall that.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We will deal with that. Please continue.
18 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Please, without naming any names, mentioning any names, can you
20 say whether Kole allowed a man whose father was killed that day outside of
21 the camp to go home and use the phone?
22 A. Yes, he did. This man was in my room.
23 Q. Did Kole know this man? Did he know him?
24 A. Well, you could say that he did and not, because I think Kole was
25 older. They were not the same generation. I don't know whether he knew
1 him or not. I cannot say before this Court, but I can say that I had
2 never seen him in the same group with Kole.
3 Q. But because his father had been killed on that day by the military
4 in the area, this man waited for Kole to come on duty so that he could use
5 the phone that night?
6 A. Yes, that is correct.
7 Q. Do you think that Kole did whatever he could to make the
8 conditions of the detention in Keraterm as easy for you as possible?
9 A. I believe whatever Kole was capable to do, but I don't know what
10 his capabilities were and what his authority was, but he fought for our
11 well-being and our peace. Had he not done so, he wouldn't have said -- if
12 he had let us out, he would not say, "Quickly go back in," and he would
13 not push us into the room. And I said, "Why?" He said, "Soldiers are
14 coming by and they may shoot you." And indeed, ten, 15 minutes later,
15 soldiers would be passing on a road, Banja Luka-Prijedor Road, in trucks,
16 and they were shooting in the air and singing. There would be howitzers
17 that they were having on the truck. And Kole would say, "Please go in, go
18 in." The door was narrow. It wasn't easy to go in quickly. I thought,
19 is he crazy? And I say, "What is this?" And he said, "A convey would
20 pass so you have to go in." And as soon as the column passed, he would
21 again let us come out.
22 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you. I have no more questions.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, re-examination?
24 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, I just have one area with about two
25 questions for clarification. It was something raised yesterday during
1 Mr. Greaves's cross-examination.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
4 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
5 Q. Witness A, I would just ask for clarification as to what term that
6 you would use to describe the position in the camp or the function of
7 people like Fustar, Kajin and Kole? What is the word you use to describe
8 their position in the camp?
9 A. Their position in the camp would be that they were commanders of
10 their shifts. However, I never saw Kole, Kajin or even Fustar wearing any
11 military insignia, whether they were corporals, lieutenants, captains, no
12 military insignia on their uniforms.
13 Q. By the same token, I'm going to ask how you would describe the
14 position in the camp held by Sikirica?
15 A. I would describe it as follows: Sikirica had working hours. He
16 would come in the morning at 7.00, he would go home at 4.00. I never saw
17 Sikirica in the camp at night. I personally never saw him.
18 Q. What I'm asking for, sir, is the description, the word you would
19 use to describe his function or position in the camp, not a description of
20 his duties, but what word you give to that role that he played.
21 A. In a word, he would -- he would ask of Kajin, Kole or Fustar if
22 there were any needs for prisoners, to give them names of people who were
23 going to be turned over to those who interrogated them. I can also tell
24 to the Trial Chamber that there was a notebook in the weigh hut --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Try again, Mr. Ryneveld.
1 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Perhaps I'll approach this this way.
2 Q. During a question that was asked by you yesterday by Mr. Greaves
3 about an incident where Mr. Sikirica was asking for volunteers after the
4 Room 3 massacre, you indicated something to the effect of it would start
5 from Sikirica, 15 volunteers, then commander would pass it down to us.
6 "Question: Did you mean by that that Sikirica passed on the
7 request for volunteers to the commander?
8 Answer: Yes.
9 Question: Thank you. And to make it absolutely plain, by that
10 answer you mean that Sikirica was different from the commander?"
11 Do you remember being asked those questions and giving those
13 A. Yes, yes, I remember.
14 Q. All right. Now --
15 A. And that is certain.
16 Q. Yes. When you refer to the commander in that case, to whom were
17 you referring? What people?
18 A. When I say "commander," I am referring to a person who can issue
19 orders. I don't know how to explain this to you but let me try it in this
20 way, and this is my opinion. Sikirica, in my opinion, during his working
21 hours, was the superior to Kole, to Kajin, and Fustar, as these shifts
22 switched, during his working hours. After his working hours, the
23 responsibility was to be taken over by Kajin, Kole or Sikirica. This is
24 what the order was supposed to be.
25 Q. Sorry, you've just said "Kajin, Kole or Sikirica." Did you mean
1 to say "Sikirica" the last? You said "after his working hours," referring
2 to Sikirica --
3 A. No, no. I meant Fustar.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I have no further questions.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 MR. VUCICEVIC: May I ask one redirect question, please?
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry, Mr. Vucicevic, you want a second bite
8 at the cherry?
9 MR. VUCICEVIC: I'm just wondering, do we have any possibility to
10 ask redirect questions, or re-cross I mean?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. The re-examination is done by the
12 Prosecutor on the basis of matters arising out of the cross-examination.
13 You do not have another turn at questioning, Mr. Vucicevic.
14 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness A, I have one question to ask you. You
16 gave testimony in relation to the height of various persons. Would you
17 say that you are good at assessing the height of persons? Would you say
18 that your judgement as to the height of a person is good or is it not so
20 A. No, I am not great at assessing well people's heights, just as I
21 am not very good at drawing things.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Witness A, that completes your
23 testimony. Thank you for giving it. You may now go.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour, if I may, before the witness is
3 brought in, the Prosecution would ask that this witness be permitted to
4 testify as Witness B and that he be granted facial distortion for purposes
5 of his testimony here today. I can certainly elaborate upon the reasons
6 if you would like me to or we can ask them of the witness once he's in the
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you should do so now.
9 MR. MUNDIS: [redacted]
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
17 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: The protection requested is granted.
19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 [The witness entered court].
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
22 WITNESS: WITNESS B
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
20 Q. And did you complete compulsory military service in the JNA?
21 A. I did.
22 Q. And when was that?
23 A. It was in 1979.
24 Q. Did you then --
25 A. In Osijek.
1 Q. Did you then continue with a reserve obligation following the
2 active duty component?
3 A. Yes, I was a reservist even though I was never on the reserve.
4 Q. At the time of the conflict in Bosnia, were you performing any
5 kind of reserve military duties?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I'd like to draw your attention to the summer of 1992. Do you
8 recall when the conflict in opstina Prijedor began?
9 A. The conflict in the municipality of Prijedor broke out -- well,
10 officially it broke out in May. I think it was the 23rd.
11 Q. Can you briefly tell the Court what happened in Prijedor at that
13 A. At the time something happened up there at the Brdo in the
14 Hambarine area, there was some gun-fire or something. And after that
15 tanks went up there and there was, again, some fire opened from those
16 tanks. The next day Hambarine was shelled by those same troops.
17 Q. Can you describe for us what exactly happened in the town of
18 Prijedor shortly thereafter?
19 A. On the 30th of May the so-called attack on Prijedor took place
20 early in the morning. All I know is that there was shelling from all
21 sides on the old town. I could see it from a distance. I wasn't really
22 aware of what was going on.
23 Q. And at the time, Witness, where were you residing?
24 A. I was residing in Donja Puharska.
25 Q. And where, in relation to the town of Prijedor, is Donja Puharska?
1 A. Donja Puharska is in relation to the town of Prijedor, well, from
2 the old town about two kilometres as the crow flies.
3 Q. Basically it's a suburb of the town of Prijedor.
4 A. Indeed.
5 Q. Did there come a day or a time on the day after the attack on the
6 city of Prijedor that you were arrested?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you briefly describe what happened on that day?
9 A. We were all at home that day because we heard that people would be
10 rounded up, that there would be some interviews or something, that is,
11 before that, a soldier had just gone by and said that elderly did not --
12 would not have to go to do that. And after some time, their troops came
13 up, they were passing by on tanks and APCs, and two tanks stopped in front
14 of my house, but I left shortly to turn towards the highway and Halid
15 Muslimovic's house which they shelled, but I learned that later.
16 Then some troops came there, there were some APCs, they all had
17 beards. They were not soldiers were Prijedor, and I learned that later.
18 They were rounding up people and taking them away to [redacted]
19 [redacted]the so-called Hadzija Sokak. And in front of it there is a
20 subtransformer station, and in front of it they beat some people.
21 At a house just before my house, some men whom I knew from around
22 the town came to that house, and they arrived in that vehicle, a closed
23 vehicle, which the communications unit used and they took us out. They
24 did not beat us. They treated us decently. They even offered us
25 cigarettes, apologised to us, said they were sorry, but that we had to go
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 down to the road because there was a bus waiting for us to take us for
3 They said to some that they didn't have to go if they didn't want
4 to, but the majority did go. And on the way, as we were taken from our --
5 from one house after the other, we went down the street slowly at normal
6 speed, and then this APC came up with the anti-aircraft guns and all the
7 soldiers had beards, and they cursed at us and told us to run down so we
8 ran down to the bus.
9 The buses were parked at the very entry to Donja Puharska right
10 next to the bridge.
11 Q. Witness, did you then get on one of those buses?
12 A. Yes. Then as we got there, there was a bus which was only half
13 full, but it wasn't as half empty as it seemed because people were sitting
14 on the floor. But we got on to the bus.
15 Q. Were the people on the bus men, women, children, elderly? What
16 type of people were on the bus?
17 A. On that bus they were all males, mostly of a younger age. There
18 were a few people of more advanced age, but as we were entering the bus,
19 there were -- I didn't know who those soldiers were, and I just looked up
20 to see if I knew any one of them. And one of them said, "What are you
21 looking at? I'll kill you. You are not supposed to look around." And
22 then I looked down, as we got on to the buses, and they asked for our
23 papers and the money. And I said --
24 Q. What was the ethnicity of the people that were on the bus?
25 A. I didn't understand the question. I mean those who were rounded
1 up and taken to the bus or --
2 Q. The people who were on the bus, the people who were rounded up and
3 put on the bus, what was their ethnicity?
4 A. They were all Muslims in that bus, those who had been brought.
5 Q. And Witness, your ethnicity is?
6 A. Muslim.
7 Q. Once you were loaded on to the bus, where did the bus take you?
8 A. Those buses first took us to the barracks at Urije.
9 Q. And from Urije you were then transported to Omarska; is that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you get off of the bus at Omarska?
13 A. No, we did not, because Omarska was filled to capacity. That is
14 what we were told. So they took us to Keraterm.
15 Q. Were you familiar with the Keraterm facility prior to the time
16 when you were taken there on the bus?
17 A. Yes. I used to work at Keraterm. I was employed there.
18 Q. What did you do at Keraterm? What type of work did you do there?
19 A. [redacted].
20 Q. So is it fair to say then, Witness, that based on your experience
21 at Keraterm, that you were generally familiar with the building, the
22 physical layout of the building?
23 A. Yes, you could say that, yes, I did.
24 Q. Now, what happened to you once you arrived on the bus at Keraterm
25 on that day?
1 A. We were taken to Keraterm, to the same gate through which we
2 always entered. I'm not sure how many buses there exactly were. We were
3 all told to get off and we were searched and things like that, to see if
4 we had any sharp objects or something. And then we were all put in a
5 room, which was to become Room 2.
6 Q. When you arrived that day, Witness, approximately how many people
7 were already being detained at Keraterm?
8 A. In Keraterm, there were several people from Kozarac, I think five
9 or six of them.
10 Q. So is it fair, then, to characterise the camp as being relatively
11 empty when you first arrived?
12 A. Well, yes.
13 Q. Did there come a time, Witness, shortly thereafter, when you
14 became familiar with the personnel who were working at the camp?
15 A. Well, I met some. I already knew some.
16 Q. When you first arrived at Keraterm, approximately how many people
17 were working there, with respect to the camp personnel? About how many
18 camp personnel were there when you got there?
19 A. I don't know the exact number. I may have seen 10 or 12 of them.
20 I'm not sure.
21 Q. And were these people organised into any types of shifts, these
23 A. Then I don't know. I guess they had some shifts, I suppose.
24 Q. Do you know for approximately how long each shift was on duty?
25 A. No. In the beginning I just do not know how they alternated. I
1 saw some come and others go, but whether it was in any organised way or
2 what, I do not know, in those very early days.
3 Q. And after the very early days, did there later come a time when
4 the camp personnel were put into a more organised structure?
5 A. Well, they were -- they did organise themselves later on, and we
6 saw that there were shifts of sorts and some shift leaders of sorts.
7 Q. Do you know approximately how many shifts there were?
8 A. In the beginning there were some two shifts or something, and then
9 until the end there were three shifts.
10 Q. Do you know who were the leaders of these shifts?
11 A. I know the latter ones, that is the last three shifts. They had
12 Kajin, Kole and Fustar as their leaders, as their chiefs.
13 Q. And do you know if there was any person who was senior in command
14 to those shift commanders?
15 A. Sikirica.
16 Q. And how did you come to know that Sikirica was responsible for the
17 shift commanders?
18 A. Well, the first day, when he became the commander, we were told.
19 Q. Do you recall who told you that?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. This individual, Sikirica, did you know him prior to the time that
22 you arrived at Keraterm?
23 A. Well, I couldn't say I knew him well, but I did know him, by
25 Q. For approximately how long prior to Keraterm, your arrival at
1 Keraterm, did you know this person by sight?
2 A. What do I know? A few years, a couple of years, here and there.
3 Q. And when you say that you knew him by sight, do you have any
4 recollection of approximately how many times you may have seen him prior
5 to your arrival at Keraterm?
6 A. I wouldn't know. You know, incidentally, I cannot really say that
7 I knew him, really knew him.
8 Q. How about the shift commanders? Did you know any of them prior to
9 the war -- or prior to the time you were detained at Keraterm?
10 A. I knew Kole and Kajin.
11 Q. Let's start with Kole. How did you know Kole?
12 A. Kole, well, I met Kole, I don't know myself when and how, a long
13 time, but we were very close with people from Cirkin Polje and Donje
14 Puharska. We were twin localities. We always participated together in
15 all sorts of sports events. We were all together.
16 Q. Would it be a fair characterisation to say that you socialised
17 with Kole prior to the time you were taken to Keraterm?
18 A. Well, you could put it that way.
19 Q. Do you believe that you would recognise Kole if you saw him
21 A. I think so.
22 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you to look around the courtroom, and if
23 the person that you know as Kole is present in the courtroom, I would like
24 you to indicate that by telling us approximately where he is sitting and
25 what he is wearing.
1 A. He is sitting there in the back row between two policemen.
2 Q. And, Witness, from left to right, if you could please count which
3 seat is he sitting in, counting from the left to the right?
4 A. Fifth.
5 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I would like the record to reflect that
6 the witness has identified Kole.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 MR. MUNDIS: The accused Kolundzija.
9 Q. Witness, I'd like to turn your attention now to the person that
10 you identified as a shift commander by the name of Kajin. Did you know
11 this person prior to the time you were detained at Keraterm?
12 A. I did, yes.
13 Q. And can you tell the Court exactly how you knew this person Kajin?
14 A. Well, I knew him from around the town. He was more or less in the
15 same company. We frequented the same pubs and cafes.
16 Q. And for how long prior to the time you were detained in Keraterm
17 did you know Kajin?
18 A. Well, years. I don't know exactly how many years.
19 Q. Do you believe that you would recognise the person that you know
20 as Kajin today if you were to see him?
21 A. I should.
22 Q. Witness, I would ask you now, Witness, to look around the
23 courtroom, and if the person that you know as Kajin is present, please
24 indicate that to the Court and tell us approximately where he is sitting.
25 A. Same row, chair number 3.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'd like the record to reflect that the
2 witness has identified Kajin.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 MR. MUNDIS:
5 Q. Now, Witness, after the camp personnel were organised into these
6 three shifts that you've told us about, do you recall approximately how
7 many guards were on work -- or would work during each of those three
9 A. Well, I never counted them, but I should say that each shift had
10 about ten guards.
11 Q. And do you know how long each shift was on duty for?
12 A. They took over every 12 hours.
13 Q. Do you know approximately what time of the day the shifts would
15 A. They changed sometime at sunset. Well, I don't know, sometime
16 between 6.00 and 8.00, and in the morning, after 12.
17 Q. Witness, when you say "after 12," you mean after 12 hours they
18 would then change again?
19 A. Every 12 hours. They would be for 12 hours on duty and then the
20 next shift would come and they would again be on duty for 12 hours.
21 Q. It would be fair to say that the shifts came on sometime between
22 6.00 and 8.00 in the morning and then that shift would be on duty for 12
23 hours and would be relieved sometime between 1800 and 2000 hours in the
24 evening; is that correct?
25 A. It is.
1 Q. Now, Witness, you've indicated that there were approximately ten
2 guards per shift. Do you recall which guards were on which shifts?
3 A. Well, I'm not really sure, because it was a long time ago, but I
4 remember some guards from some shifts.
5 Q. Let's start with Kajin's shift. Do you recall the names of any of
6 the guards who worked under Kajin's shift?
7 A. In Kajin's shift, brothers Banovic were there, then Keli, and
8 there were some other guys, Kajin's brother.
9 Q. Witness, when you say "brothers Banovic", do you know how many of
10 these Banovic brothers there were and do you know their names?
11 A. There were two brothers Banovic, there was some other Banovics,
12 but they were not their brothers, and they were two brothers, Nenad and
14 Q. Witness, do you recall any of the guards that were on Kole's
16 A. I do. On Kole's shift were Grujo, Lazo, Frco, Munjiza and some
18 Q. And how about Fustar's shift, do you recall any of the guards that
19 were on Fustar's shift?
20 A. Yes, Kondic, Baltic, one whom we called Cigo. I don't know his
21 real name. And there were some others, but I forget their name.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, noting the time, perhaps this would be
23 an appropriate time to stop for the lunch break.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it would be. Witness B, you are not to
25 discuss your evidence with anybody during the adjournment including
1 members of the Prosecution team. We'll resume at 2.00 p.m.
2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
1 -- On Resuming at 2.03 p.m.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis, you are to continue.
3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Witness, I would like to briefly return to the issue of
5 Mr. Sikirica. You testified earlier that you had seen this individual
6 prior to the time that you were in Keraterm and that you had seen him
7 around in the general vicinity of Prijedor; is that correct?
8 A. Something like that.
9 Q. Now, Witness, approximately what day was it when you arrived in
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis, why don't you try to get a little
12 more about the circumstances in which he saw him, where, when and, you
13 know, whether he saw him in any one place more than once, questions of
14 that nature.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour.
16 Q. Witness, on these instances prior to the time that you arrived in
17 Keraterm, do you recall where you may have seen the person that you later
18 learned was Sikirica?
19 A. I cannot say that precisely.
20 Q. And you -- do you have any recollection of approximately how many
21 times you saw him?
22 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, he's been asked that question and
23 answered that he couldn't remember precisely how many. With respect, this
24 is now beginning to be cross-examination.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, Mr. Mundis.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. MUNDIS:
2 Q. Witness, do you recall what day it was that you arrived at
4 A. 31 May.
5 Q. And which year, 1992?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you recall what day it was that you eventually left Keraterm?
8 A. 5 August same year.
9 Q. Now, during the two months and a few days that you were in
10 Keraterm, did you see this person that was identified to you in Keraterm
11 as Sikirica?
12 A. Yes, I did see him in the camp.
13 Q. Approximately how many times did you see him in the camp?
14 A. On a daily basis after he started working in that job.
15 Q. Do you recall approximately when he started working in that job?
16 A. I couldn't say exactly, but perhaps 15, 20 days after the opening
17 of the camp.
18 Q. And do you know when the camp opened?
19 A. We said that that was 31 May when the first substantial group
21 Q. So Witness, it's your testimony then that Sikirica was the camp
22 commander from approximately June 15th or June 20th, 1992 onwards; is that
23 your testimony?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And so from that period until you left the camp on August 5th,
1 1992, your testimony is that you saw the accused Sikirica in the camp on a
2 daily basis; is that correct?
3 A. Except for the last five or six days when somebody else came as
4 commander of that camp.
5 Q. Witness, do you think that you would be able to recognise the
6 person that was identified to you as Sikirica in the camp if you saw him
8 A. I would.
9 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you to look around the courtroom, and if
10 you see the person that was identified to you as Sikirica, can you please
11 point him out for the court?
12 A. In that row over there, in the chair number 2.
13 Q. In which row are you referring to, Witness?
14 A. The last one, and it is the second chair from the left.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'd ask that the record reflect the fact
16 that the witness has identified the accused Sikirica.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
18 MR. MUNDIS:
19 Q. Now, witness, you also testified earlier today that there were a
20 number of guards that you saw regularly in the camp. I would like to turn
21 your attention now to other individuals. Were there also other
22 individuals who came into the Keraterm camp but were not regular guards in
23 the camp?
24 A. There were.
25 Q. Do you recall the names or nicknames of any of those individuals,
1 the non-guards who would enter the camp?
2 A. I don't know whether Zigic was a guard there at all. I doubt it.
3 And Dusan Knezevic, called Duca, came occasionally and so on.
4 Q. Let me start with Zigic. Did you know Zigic from before the time
5 that you saw him in Keraterm?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. And how did you know him?
8 A. I knew him quite well. He was a taxi driver in Prijedor and our
9 paths crossed often.
10 Q. Were you aware of the fact that Mr. Zigic had at one time been in
11 prison prior to the war?
12 A. I know that he had committed a murder before the war, so we knew
13 that he was in prison.
14 Q. How about Duca Knezevic, did you know him from prior to the war?
15 A. No, I had never seen him before I saw him in Keraterm for the
16 first time.
17 Q. What kinds of things did you see Knezevic doing in the Keraterm
19 A. He, along with Zigic, beat prisoners, tortured them.
20 Q. Witness, can you briefly describe for the court the conditions in
21 the camp with respect to food, water and sanitary conditions, please?
22 A. On the day when we were brought to that room, which was afterwards
23 labelled Room number 2, those who were with -- there was concrete floor.
24 The concrete is always cold, so it was cold. We found some cardboard. We
25 shared it. At first there weren't that many of us there. There was no
1 water. There was no water throughout the Prijedor water system. I know
2 that Kajin then organised delivery of water, and we used different
3 containers to move that water around with. At first we went off the
4 perimeter to get water. After that, water was being delivered in water
5 tankers. And as far as our own organisation of life is concerned, at
6 first they gave us some pallets so that we wouldn't lie on the bare
7 concrete. We also could get blankets if there was somebody who could
8 deliver them to us.
9 Q. What about food in the camp?
10 A. The first two days we did not get anything. Our families did not
11 know where we were, so we asked them to allow us to call our -- to get in
12 touch with our families so members of our family could bring us some food
13 and blankets. After a couple of days food started arriving. I don't know
14 whether it was coming from the barracks or from some restaurant. We
15 received a single meal a day. Later on, when we were -- when our number
16 increased to 1.000, or over 1.000 according to some calculations, we were
17 receiving much less food but somehow distributed all among ourselves.
18 Sometimes we didn't even eat due to certain circumstances.
19 Q. Witness, were there facilities in the camp for you to take a
20 shower or bathe and/or to wash your clothing?
21 A. There were -- there was -- there were no facilities of that kind
22 in the camp, but we somehow managed with their permission, and at first
23 they wouldn't allow us this. We would warm water in the sun and then we
24 would wash our hair so that we had some minimal hygiene.
25 Q. How many rooms were people being detained in when you first
1 arrived at Keraterm?
2 A. When I arrived at Keraterm, in this one room where we were placed
3 which later was labelled as Room 2, there were five or six men from the
4 Kozarac area who were there detained, no one else.
5 Q. And by the time that you left Keraterm in early August 1992, how
6 many rooms were being used to detain individuals?
7 A. Four, four rooms.
8 Q. Witness, you've earlier testified that you previously worked in
9 the Keraterm building. Are you familiar with the layout of that
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask the usher to show the witness a photocopy
13 of what has previously been introduced as Exhibit 2B, and I'd also like to
14 provide the witness with a pen so that he can make certain markings on
15 this document.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 MR. MUNDIS:
18 Q. Now, Witness, did the rooms in Keraterm come to be numbered, i.e.,
19 Room 1, Room 2, Room 3, Room 4; is that correct?
20 A. They were not marked, but this is how we were referring to these
22 Q. Can you please take the black pen that you've been provided with
23 and indicate on the photograph to your left where the various rooms were
24 in the Keraterm camp at the time you were there?
25 A. [Indicates].
1 Q. Witness, let me ask you this: This photograph was apparently
2 taken in 1996. At the time that you were in Keraterm in the summer of
3 1992, did the building look substantially the same as it does appear in
4 the photograph?
5 A. The building in its shape looks the same, but here and there,
6 there is a door missing and there's -- there have been some alterations.
7 Q. But it's substantially the same as it was during 1992?
8 A. Yes. The building looked just like this one.
9 Q. Witness, are you able to estimate space, in other words, are you
10 the type of person who can make an estimate of the size of a room?
11 A. Yes, I could, approximately.
12 Q. And based on your experience both working in Keraterm and during
13 the time that you were confined there, do you recall the specific size,
14 for example, of Room 1?
15 A. Well, Room 1, some years have passed, but I think that I could say
16 how it looked because I spent some time in it.
17 Q. And approximately what size was Room 1?
18 A. It was about 8 metres in width and it went -- the length or the
19 depth was approximately up to 15 metres, 12 to 15, something like that.
20 Let's say 15.
21 Q. Room 1 was approximately 8 metres by 15 metres?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And do you know the approximate size of Room 2?
24 A. Room 2 was probably the same length, perhaps even one or two
25 metres longer, because I'm not sure whether it was the -- shared the same
1 wall with Room 1. It was also partitioned with some fence and it was
2 about 10 to 12 metres wide, and there was a small door and that was the
3 area inside. Inside it was partitioned with fence, and that's where they
4 kept some tools and machinery. I think it was some kind of a warehouse
5 that the company had there from before the war.
6 Q. With respect to Room number 3, are you familiar with the
7 approximate size of that room?
8 A. The size of that room was -- it couldn't have been longer than six
9 metres and it was about ten metres wide, eight to ten.
10 Q. And Room number 4, are you familiar with the approximate size of
11 that room?
12 A. Room 4 was a bit larger than Room 3. It consisted of two parts.
13 There was a small hallway and then there were two parts, six by six
14 metres, and there was a small toilet in one of the corners.
15 Q. Witness, if you could please retrieve the photograph that's beside
16 you, and if you would be so kind as to mark the approximate dimensions of
17 each room under the room number that you've marked on that photograph,
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis, with these additional markings, you
20 will want to tender this as a separate exhibit.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, I was planning to, yes, Your Honour. And again
22 just for the record, that is not the actual Exhibit 2B. It's simply a
23 photocopy of that photograph.
24 Q. And again, Witness, just so that we are absolutely clear, the
25 numbers you've marked are all expressed in terms of metres; is that
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. I would ask that this be marked as the
4 next Prosecution exhibit in order, I believe number 4.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can the Registrar confirm that?
6 THE REGISTRAR: It is number 4.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Registrar, are we numbering them just 1, 2, 3, 4,
10 or P 1, 2, 3, 4?
11 THE REGISTRAR: 1, 2, 3, 4, without a P. We use a D for the
12 Defence exhibits and the others are just Prosecution exhibits.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: So they are sufficiently differentiated. Thank
14 you. Continue, Mr. Mundis.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
16 Q. Now, witness, you testified earlier that you were placed, upon
17 arrival, in what eventually became known as Room number 2. Do you recall
18 approximately how long you were in that room?
19 A. Approximately about eight days, between eight and ten days, that's
20 how long I was there.
21 Q. During the time that you were detained in Room 2, were you ever
22 taken out for any type of questioning?
23 A. When I was taken for questionings, I -- after that, I was moved
24 from number 2 to Room 1, because that's where the men who had been
25 interrogated were moved.
1 Q. Can you briefly describe for the court the interrogation process
2 that you underwent?
3 A. Those of us who were from Puharska - and for the most part we were
4 from Puharska and there were some men from Cejreci. I think that there
5 was some kind of an order. I think it was street by street. I don't know
6 who made this order but there was some kind of an order. Those who were
7 first interrogated were given a piece of paper which stated that they were
8 allowed to move about in the territory of the proper -- the town itself.
9 They would be bused to Puharska and then released to their homes.
10 Q. Do you know for approximately how long this practice continued?
11 A. This went on for the first 100, 140 prisoners. They were
12 released. After that an end was put to this and all -- no one was
13 released after that.
14 Q. Were any prisoners transferred to other locations other than being
15 allowed to go home following their interrogations?
16 A. Yes. Some were taken to Omarska.
17 Q. Did there later come a time, Witness, when you were transferred
18 into Room 4, and if so, can you please describe how that process
20 A. I was later moved -- no, I was not moved there but Kajin suggested
21 that we go to Room number 4 because we were overcrowded over there and
22 Room number 4 was free. So I told him that -- that there were all kinds
23 of things going on, beatings, right around there, in the area where Room 4
24 was. Then he said that I shouldn't be afraid, that I'll be safe there,
25 that there was a key, that he would give me a key, that I could lock
1 myself in, and that way, this would be -- we would be safe, "And if
2 anybody asked you about that, tell them that Kajin has the key, so there
3 would be no problem." [redacted]
5 [redacted]. At first, when we moved to Room
6 number 4, we were 60 to 70; that was right away, the first or the second
7 day. Later on our number grew and in the end we were about 280 in this
9 Q. And you indicated that you were -- [redacted]
10 [redacted]. I assume this was between the prisoners and the guards or
11 other camp personnel?
12 A. Yes, that's how it was.
13 Q. [redacted]
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what happened to the list that you created while you were kept
21 in the Keraterm camp?
22 A. You have this list, from what I know.
23 Q. Did you provide this list or turn this list over to an
24 investigator from the Tribunal?
25 A. Yes, I did.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. MUNDIS: I'd like the usher to show these handwritten
2 documents to the witness, please. Copies of these have been provided to
3 the Defence and the Judges earlier this morning.
4 Q. Witness, I would like you to take a look through these pages and
5 tell me if those are the lists or logs that you maintained while you were
6 at the Keraterm camp?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And are all of the markings or all of the handwriting on those
9 documents, is that all in your handwriting?
10 A. It is, yes. It is all in my handwriting -- well, some of these
11 lists -- I did not compile all of them. Perhaps those who were next to me
12 did it. Perhaps I didn't have enough time. I mean this is not all just
13 one list. There are several lists here.
14 Q. [redacted]
15 the list that you actually turned over to the investigators from the
16 Tribunal; is that correct?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. And it contains the names and the year of birth of the men who
19 were detained in Room 4 during the summer of 1992.
20 A. That's right, but the year of birth does not figure in all the
21 lists because -- I mean we didn't -- rather, we did not have to write that
22 later on.
23 Q. So for some of the names you didn't have the corresponding year of
24 birth to put down on the list; is that accurate?
25 A. That's right.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'd ask that this be marked as Exhibit 5
2 and admitted into evidence.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 MR. MUNDIS:
5 Q. Now, Witness, were you ever, during the time that you were
6 detained in Keraterm, were you ever mistreated in any way physically?
7 A. Twice, yes.
8 Q. Let's start with the first time. Can you describe the
9 circumstances surrounding that incident, please?
10 A. The first time it was a soldier or a policeman, I wouldn't really
11 know, but they wore military uniforms at that time. And he was there at
12 the checkpoint opposite the Keraterm, and I know that he was from
13 Sarajevo, Novo Sarajevo, municipality of Centar. Very tall, very large
14 man. His father's name is Ilija, and I remembered it because he had shown
15 me his identity card to see it.
16 So he came and I was called out. They called me to come out. It
17 was during Fustar's shift. And he asked me to find two extremists for
18 him. And I told him that there were no such men in my room.
19 Then he said that if I don't find those two extremists, I'd get
20 the beating. And I said they were not there so I couldn't find them. And
21 then he began to beat me with the police baton.
22 So he beat me, then he said, "Well now do you remember? Go find
23 two extremists or we shall go on beating you." And once again, I did not
24 give him any names, and he then went on beating me. Fustar stood next to
25 him saying not to strike me on the head, and he said that repeatedly.
1 Then somehow he seemed to be satisfied, to think that he had
2 beaten me enough, and requested a list from me. And I think he called out
3 the last two names on the list. They put me back in the room, and they
4 proceeded to beat those two. So that was the first time.
5 Q. Witness, approximately how long did that beating occur and what
6 type of injuries, if any, did you receive?
7 A. That beating, that is, the beating and talking, it lasted some 15
8 minutes. I'm not sure. I think that was roughly how long it took. And
9 injuries, yes, I did sustain some. Those were bruises. I do not think I
10 suffered any lasting injury.
11 Q. And with respect to the second time that you were mistreated in
12 Keraterm, can you please describe the circumstances surrounding that
13 incident, please?
14 A. The second time was during Kajin's shift when Keli demanded that I
15 take Besim Jusufi out, because Besim Jusufi -- because Besim Jusufi had
16 been beaten twice during the previous two days. He told me he simply
17 couldn't go out because he could not stand on his feet.
18 And then Keli said, "Well, never mind, you come out." And I then
19 came out and I don't know whom he had with him, but they began to hit me
20 with their rifles or -- and I don't know what else. And at that moment,
21 Cupo Banovic turned up and said, "Don't beat him," and pushed me through
22 the door, and I stumbled into the room and that was it that day, at least
23 in my case.
24 Q. Witness, are you aware of any other detainees being beaten during
25 the time they were in Keraterm and, if so, if you can recall any of their
1 names, please?
2 A. Well, I can remember some. For instance, when Drago Tokmadzic was
3 battered and died that evening. I also remember Ismet Kljajic who was
4 also beaten up that day. I can also remember Eso Islamovic. He was also
5 a policeman like Drago Tokmadzic. His brother, Edo Islamovic.
6 And that evening, they also beat a Serb, but I didn't know him. I
7 know that his first name was Jovo. They cut him with a knife and put him
8 in the same room with us and he died that night. And there were quite a
9 number of other cases of beating.
10 Q. Did you know an individual in Keraterm by the name of Car?
11 A. I did, yes. Indeed, I did know Car. I think his name is Said,
12 I'm not sure, but I think his last name it Jusufovic. He was brought into
13 the camp in the beginning, and said that machine-gun had been found with
14 him, machine-gun Z-53. And they put him up with us in Room 2, that is,
15 the room which was -- which later on became known as Room 2.
16 At that time when he arrived, it was still the only room. And
17 they brought him and, at that time, Zigic had a team next to the door, a
18 team which he had set up. It was right here behind this door, behind this
19 door here. Here, behind this door. It was Zigic's team for special
20 treatment. That is what he called it.
21 Car was brought there to them and then a little later, they began
22 to beat Car, and Zigic and Duca took part in that. And then the rain
23 started, and all he had was socks, he did not have any shoes on, Car, I
24 mean. They gave him a machine-gun, a heavy, big machine-gun and forced
25 him to run here in circles like this. Here.
1 Q. He was running in the area in front of Rooms 1 and 2 on the paved
2 area; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, here. Well, we could see it anyway. We could see that. We
4 could see him running, perhaps not here but here rather, and we could see
5 it through the door. That is, some did see that, others didn't. And he
6 ran, and I think he ran for about half an hour, never stopping, in the
7 rain, and before that, he had received some blows, and after that, that
8 running in circles stopped, and in front of Room 2, there was a truck or
9 something, and they took him behind it and beat him, beat him very badly.
10 And then they put him back in the room. And he took a long time dying,
11 but he did die in the end, and he was the first one to die in Keraterm.
12 Q. Witness, did this person Car tell you that he had been captured
13 with a machine-gun?
14 A. Allegedly, that was accurate. Allegedly he had indeed been
15 captured with a machine-gun. Well, it was somewhat risky to talk to
16 people. I mean, those who were near him could talk but others did not
17 come close.
18 Q. Witness, you mentioned also an incident where a person -- a Serb
19 by the name of Jovo was stabbed. Can you describe that, please?
20 A. It was that same evening when Drago Tokmadzic was killed. That
21 night a great many people were beaten, and what I can say is that Banovics
22 participated in that and Goran Lajic also came that night. He was not a
23 guard. I heard his voice. I know his voice very well. And then the next
24 day, I even saw him there. That Jovo was from somewhere near Ljubija, I
25 don't know exactly, and he was brought in the evening. Which room he was
1 put in, I don't know, and after he was beaten, they put him in the same
2 room where I was, that is Room 4. I believe he had sons or something. He
3 called out his names. They were saying there was somebody's sons and he
4 knew them. And he also took a long time to die because his -- he was
5 there -- it was very hard for us to listen to that because we were not
6 really used to that kind of thing. But he died there and those dead
7 bodies remained with us until the morning, until we sought permission to
8 take them to the end of Keraterm, beyond Room 4. There was a fence there
9 and beyond that fence there were some pallets heaped up, and we carried
10 the dead bodies there.
11 Q. Now, Witness, you indicated this individual was a Serb. How many
12 Serbs were detained in Keraterm?
13 A. He was the only one. He was the only one. Nobody but him.
14 Q. Do you know why he was being detained at Keraterm?
15 A. Well, there were different stories. I don't know which one is
16 accurate. One of the stories says that there were posters with SDA and
17 Alija on his house. The second story was that he had voted for the SDA.
18 I don't know if he did or if he didn't.
19 Q. You also indicated -- you've mentioned a couple of times Drago
20 Tokmadzic. Can you tell us the circumstances surrounding what happened to
22 A. Well, he was brought that evening, he was called out that evening,
23 he and Eso Islamovic. They were both taken out and then beaten and beaten
24 and beaten in front of Room 4. It took a very long time. And then at
25 long last they put both of them in the room, except that Eso Islamovic
1 survived and Drago Tokmadzic didn't.
2 Q. And do you know what ethnicity Drago Tokmadzic was?
3 A. I think a Croat. He should have been a Croat, a Catholic.
4 Q. On this night that Jovo and Tokmadzic and Islamovic were all
5 beaten, there were other prisoners beaten that night as well?
6 A. Yes, from my room, Edo Islamovic, Eso's brother was beaten that
7 night. Kljajic, and there were others, not only from my room, from other
8 rooms too, that night. That evening Banovic used a baseball bat for the
9 first time.
10 Q. Witness, do you know which shift was on duty that night?
11 A. Kajin's.
12 Q. Witness, you've talked about Jovo being stabbed. Are you aware of
13 any other prisoners who sustained knife injuries while at Keraterm?
14 A. I know that some prisoners were stabbed or wounded with the knives
15 in the early days. Zigic, I think there was a Captain -- he was a Captain
16 in that so-called special treatment team and Zigic pricked him with his
17 knife in the thigh, as far as I could see. I saw that he bled, and I saw
18 that the leg of his trousers was all bloody. And I saw another guy from
19 Kozarac but I do not know who did it to him. I could see that his arms
20 had been pierced with a knife at that time when the Kozarac people were
21 still in Room 3.
22 Q. Did you know a person in the camp by the name of Fajzo?
23 A. Fajzo? Well, I did not know him before that, but I met him that
24 day and I wish I hadn't. He was brought there or perhaps he was there, I
25 really don't know, but be that as it may, Duca asked him to tell him
1 something or point at something. It was all very hazy to me because I
2 didn't really know what it was or how, but be that as it may, he brought
3 that Fajzo's wife and children and that was the time when I was in Room
4 1. And in front of that room, perhaps 20 metres away, they -- Duca caught
5 him by the head, by the hair, and cut the hair on his neck with a knife,
6 and also cut his knife but only, I mean, superficially, just the skin. He
7 was alive. He survived that, and after that, he was taken away to
8 Omarska. That is what I heard.
9 Q. Where did he receive these knife wounds? It's not clear from the
11 A. Which one of them? This of Croat ethnicity, the one that was a
13 Q. No, I'm sorry, Fajzo. Where did Fajzo receive the neck injury --
14 or the injuries?
15 A. I've just told you, at the back of his neck. They were cutting --
16 he was cut -- they were cutting his hair and also wounding him.
17 Q. Witness, do you know an individual by the name of Emsud Bahonjic
18 and did you see him at Keraterm?
19 A. Yes. Emsud Bahonjic once lived as a very young -- he used to live
20 on my street but then they moved to Kozarac. He was also beaten by that
21 team which they called special treatment team. He was also beaten daily
22 by Zigic and Duca. Well, Duca wasn't there every day but Zigic was. And
23 it went on for several days. And then one day, he died on the pallet next
24 to me. I watched it. I sat next to him. They had just brought the lunch
25 for us, in front of the -- in front of -- it was waiting for us in front
1 of the room. And he was the second man who died in Keraterm.
2 Q. You indicated that he was beaten over a period of several days.
3 Do you know which shifts were on duty when Emsud Bahonjic was beaten?
4 A. At the time when Emsud Bahonjic was beaten, it was not those
5 shifts which were regulated subsequently. At that time, we still didn't
6 know exactly who did what or when. They then took shifts every 24 hours
7 so that we didn't really know who was on which shift. Perhaps there are
8 people who were more familiar with that, but I did not really know that,
9 what, with fear, with not daring to ask a question and anything else.
10 But be that as it may, it was right in the beginning, in the early
11 days of the camp. It was on one of the first 7 days or 8 days maybe.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I note the time. I was unaware of what
13 time the Chamber wanted to take a short recess.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we'll go until about ten past 3.00 and
15 take a 15-minute recess.
16 MR. MUNDIS:
17 Q. Witness, were you aware of a time when a group of prisoners from
18 Kurevo arrived at Keraterm?
19 A. A group of prisoners arrived from Kurevo. We couldn't really keep
20 track of the dates or days and everything else. I know that it was one
21 day when they were brought before this small booth which served as the
22 reception desk or something where they were searched and checked and where
23 they had these big scales in the yard next to the gate.
24 They were brought there. As far as I know, there were 12 of
25 them. I didn't count them, but somebody else did and told me so. And
1 they stood there on the grass towards the highway near the fence opposite
2 the reception booth and the scales, the weigh station, and they were
3 beaten there. Who beat them, I don't know. I did not see that.
4 I know that Sikirica was present, that he stood there, but he did
5 not beat them. I would have seen that and I didn't. But they were
6 beaten, and beaten, and that is where they spent the night right there in
7 that same spot, as far as I know. Right there on that spot or a bit
8 further away, but be that as it may, they spent the night out there.
9 The next day, the next day, a vehicle comes, a two-tonne carrying
10 capacity. They were put on that truck and it was Fustar's shift at the
11 time, and Kondic came to me and told me to bring out Besim Jusufi and Huka
12 Muric who were in Room 4, that was my room.
13 He said, "They're ill. They should go and see the doctor." And I
14 said they were all right, and they didn't need any doctor but he said,
15 "No, no, no, they're ill. They must go see the doctor so bring them out
16 so that they can go to the doctor."
17 So I went in, I told them that, and Muric stood up immediately,
18 and Besim asked me not to let him go and I told him "Besim, that's what I
19 was told." And he stood up and we started towards the truck which was
20 parked between Rooms 1 and 2. And that was that, that is, that is when I
21 saw those men from Kurevo who had been captured there. That is when I saw
22 them. I could not see them before that, and I didn't know what was going
24 Q. Witness, this truck, what happened to the truck?
25 A. Well, those men were put on the truck and it left in a direction,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 I don't know which, that is, he left in the direction of Omarska, in the
2 direction of Kozarac and those places there.
3 Q. Witness, approximately how many people total were on the truck?
4 A. Well, if there were 12 of those men, there were also those two
5 whom I had asked to go. I was right next to that truck, and I also Zejro
6 Causevic, called Zejra, who had worms, who had pustulating wounds. He was
7 also in the truck. I saw him there. And also Fehim Krupic was ordered to
8 climb into the truck. As I was standing nearby, I heard some man, and I
9 heard another voice to climb that bus. I think I heard Sikirica tell him
10 to do that.
11 This -- so it would mean 16 men altogether. And then the truck
12 left in an unknown direction.
13 Q. Witness, is it your testimony that you heard Sikirica order that
14 man to get on to the truck?
15 MR. GREAVES: No, Your Honour, he said "I think" and he's now
16 cross-examining this witness again. I object to that.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: He's just seeking clarification. You may ask
18 your question.
19 A. I think it was Sikirica who said that, but I'm not really
20 affirming it positively. I'm not stating it positively. I think so.
21 MR. MUNDIS:
22 Q. Witness, once the truck drove out of the gates of Keraterm, did
23 you ever see that truck again?
24 A. I saw it the same day, this truck came back. There were traces of
25 blood on it and Zejro Causevic was wearing longjohns. That piece of
1 clothing was on the truck that -- they brought the truck back to be
2 washed. They hosed it down with that fire hose.
3 Q. And what about the 16 men that were on the truck when it departed
4 Keraterm, did you ever see any of those men again?
5 A. No, nobody has heard of them. They were probably taken to be
7 Q. Witness, did there come a time while you were at the Keraterm camp
8 that prisoners arrived from the Brdo area?
9 A. Yes. They arrived, but before they had arrived, I don't know who
10 was in -- on duty; Kole, I think it was. He asked me to take in a number
11 of people from Room 3 because these were men from the Kozarac area. I
12 told Kole that I could not take them in because I really had the room
13 full. So I was looking for ways not to do it, but I couldn't avoid it.
14 So I received 44 men from Room 3. Other rooms also took in men, I don't
15 know how many.
16 And then over a period of several days, this Room 3 was filled
17 with these men, but these men from Room 3 were not given anything to eat.
18 During Kole's shift he allowed me to take them a plastic container filled
19 with bread, and this is what we gave them at the door. This was on the
20 eve of the massacre, that is several days before, because it took several
21 days. This went on over a period of several days, and then the massacre
22 took place.
23 Q. Were you aware of the conditions inside Room 3 after these men
24 arrived but before the massacre?
25 A. I was there every day. I passed by the door. That door was not
1 locked during the day, but they were under specific orders that they could
2 not leave the room. I think that only a few of them were able to leave
3 the room, and the room was filled gradually.
4 The conditions in it were very poor. They were given a barrel
5 full of water, and at night they would be locked up. I don't know what it
6 was like for them in there. They had the toilet right next to them, but
7 the ammonia that could be -- that was -- it must have been suffocating for
8 them . You know how ammonia smells.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: This was one toilet?
10 A. Yes. There was one toilet and it was right next to Room 3. It
11 was letting out to that room by a door which was under lock.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you are finished with paragraph 20, I think we
13 could take the break, but if you have more on paragraph 20 . . .
14 MR. MUNDIS: I don't believe so, Your Honour. I think this will
15 be an appropriate time.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now and resume at 25 minutes
17 after 3.00.
18 --- Break taken at 3.10 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 3.25 p.m.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Witness, I had one follow-up question from something we were
23 speaking about earlier. Can you tell the Court the approximate size of
24 this courtroom, in terms of metres?
25 A. It is a little bit irregular in shape. The longer side could be
1 about 17 metres, and where I am sitting, which is the widest part, is
2 about seven, eight metres. Eight metres.
3 Q. And thus, in comparison to the rooms in Keraterm, how does this
4 courtroom relate to the size of the rooms in Keraterm?
5 A. This room could be approximately the size of Room 1, perhaps
6 slightly larger than Room 1.
7 Q. And which room in Keraterm was the largest room?
8 A. Room number 2.
9 Q. Thank you, Witness. Let's go back to immediately after the
10 arrival of the people from Brdo. Do you recall any groups of soldiers
11 coming to the camp immediately after the people from Brdo arrived?
12 A. Not immediately after their arrival, but several days later. I
13 remember a group of people on the day of the massacre, that was that
14 fateful night. I saw a group of people that was gathering there, and this
15 man nicknamed Faca, who used to come on a regular basis and beat
16 prisoners, come there at that time. And I saw men with red berets walking
17 about. I don't know what they were doing. They were looking for
18 someone. Meanwhile, the lunch time had come. We were all in our
19 respective rooms, and this was Fustar's shift. Habitually they were
20 keeping us locked in the rooms. They wouldn't let us be out. They
21 started gathering during Fustar's shift. And later on I noticed that they
22 were bringing out people from other rooms. I saw them bringing out people
23 from Room number 3. I don't know if they also did the same with Rooms 1
24 and 2. And they positioned them in front of Rooms 3 and 4. And they were
25 in a circle, and in one circle there could be 10 to 13 men. And at first
1 they were kneeling down. This was still all before the shift change. In
2 other words, it all started in -- during Fustar's shift, and then Kole
3 took over. The beatings started -- I cannot swear, I cannot say whether
4 that is true or not, whether this started before or after the shift
5 change, because they were being beaten and they were beaten there, and
6 then they were taken back to their rooms.
7 At one point, I went to -- with someone to bring bread for our
8 room so I saw a little bit of this. But we quickly ran over there and
9 back so that no one -- no one even paid attention to us maybe.
10 Q. Witness, approximately how many people were being beaten at that
12 A. At that time, all those who were in those three circles were
13 beaten up.
14 Q. Do you recall approximately how many people were in each circle?
15 A. As I said, between 10 and 12, perhaps 13 men, maybe even up to
17 Q. And how long did these beatings take place for?
18 A. At first they beat them softly, so to speak. You could still hear
19 moans and screams. Perhaps in our experience it lasted longer than if we
20 were just measuring time. It just seemed very long to us, so I cannot
21 give you the exact time. Perhaps it went on for half an hour, maybe a
22 full hour, somewhere around there.
23 Q. Do you recall the approximate date at which time these beatings
24 took place?
25 A. It could have been -- I never even asked anyone what date this
1 was. Even to date, I have not asked anyone, but I think it was around the
2 26th, 27th.
3 Q. Of which month?
4 A. 26th of July.
5 Q. Did anything unusual happen later that evening?
6 A. Later on that night, shooting took place. They shot at Room 3.
7 Before the shooting started, you could hear some noise from Room 3
8 because -- and we could hear it because only a thin wall separated us from
9 this room.
10 First, there was some loud noises, then singing. Somebody started
11 calling me, too, from that room. And then we heard noise on the part of
12 the guards or someone. I don't know whom. But we were locked up and
13 nobody was looking outside anymore, only those who were in Room 1 which
14 was -- which had a full view, only they could see outside.
15 We could only hear what was going on. We could hear the windows
16 breaking. Apparently they were throwing people out the windows.
17 Previously, apparently, they were -- had shoved in all these men whom they
18 had beaten and who were injured. I think that some were even killed as we
19 were told later.
20 And it was late, the shooting went -- took place in several
21 bursts. The first period was the longest, 10, 15 minutes. Some bullets
22 also came to our room. However, we were protected and the bullets did not
23 penetrate into the room.
24 Q. Witness, if you recall, approximately what time did the shooting
1 A. Well, I would say -- I would say -- it is difficult to orient
2 one's self in time, but I would say that it was after midnight. I don't
3 know exactly.
4 Q. And do you recall which shift was on duty at the time that the
5 shooting started?
6 A. That was Kole's shift was on duty. I know that I heard him making
7 noise. I heard him running. And he was cursing. He was saying something
8 like, "Don't shoot." This is what I heard.
9 And in the end, it turned out to be true what I had heard.
10 Apparently he went in front of Room 1, which was completely open to
11 protect them. So he stood in front of it so they couldn't shoot.
12 Otherwise they would have killed him too. So they did not shoot in that
14 I know that is what happened. But who shot, whether anybody from
15 Kole's shift was shooting, that, I don't know. I just know that there
16 were soldiers there from outside whom I had never seen before who arrived
17 there, who arrived there later during that day. I am certain that they
18 were shooting, and I cannot say anything about anyone else.
19 Q. You indicated that the shooting occurred in several bursts, do you
20 recall approximately how many bursts of gunfire you heard that night?
21 A. I think it was in three intervals. The first was the most
22 intense. It was the most intense shooting, and then a little bit less,
23 the following ones. That is as far as I know.
24 Q. And Witness, based on your military training, do you have any idea
25 what type of weapons were being fired that evening?
1 A. I saw that there were some machine-guns there too. I know the
2 M-53 machine-guns nicknamed garonja, and I know what M-84 machine-gun
3 was. I had not known it until then, but -- that is until the war in
4 Croatia, people were going Croatia. But when I was serving in the
5 military, I had no knowledge of M-84 machine-gun.
6 But there -- I saw clearly that those machine-guns had been set
7 there previously. I don't know. There was some kind of desks there or
8 something. I don't know if they had been around there before. I believe
9 they were not.
10 Q. Witness, do you know what size calibre an M-53 machine-gun is?
11 A. I do. It is a 7.9-millimetre calibre, and the other one is a
12 7.62-millimetre calibre with reinforced charges.
13 Q. Approximately what time or for how long did the gunfire take place
14 that evening?
15 A. You mean altogether or each interval?
16 Q. Let's start with each interval. You indicated that there were
17 approximately three intervals. How long did each interval last?
18 A. I think that the first one lasted 15 to 20 minutes, if not
19 longer. The second one lasted probably 15 minutes, and the third one less
20 than 15 because it was -- there was less shooting and more individual
21 shots. Between the intervals, there was also some individual shots
22 fired. I don't know what that was.
23 Once it quieted down, we wanted to check through the little window
24 in our room. And we also opened the windows because there was a lot of
25 smoke. In fact, we had only opened one window and the other ones could
1 only be pulled up. They were sort of like skylights, but somebody said
2 that we should immediately close the window because they would fire
3 projectile from a zolja in it. So we closed all the windows and that's
4 how it was left.
5 Q. Witness, what is a zolja?
6 A. That is a small arm for -- arm for the fight against armaments,
7 that is for against tanks and APCs.
8 Q. After the shooting stopped, can you tell us about what happened in
9 the camp the following morning?
10 A. The following morning, Kajin took over the shift, and I know he
11 came to my door. I couldn't wait to see someone whom I could -- he asked
12 me how I was, and I said we were fine. He asked whether there were any
13 wounded. I said that there was one. He then told me to get that person
14 ready to go and see a doctor, and this man was only slightly wounded but
15 he may have thought that he would be better off somewhere away from
16 there. After a while they were arranging the dead bodies and they were
17 loading them on to a truck. After they were loaded, when they were
18 counting them, I heard the number 122, and the count of wounded, I don't
19 know if that is the final number, the count was 57. Of those 57 wounded,
20 they were also all loaded up on that truck. And then they called out,
21 Ekinovic, a driver from my room, who drove that truck and never came back.
22 Q. What about the wounded? Did any of them return?
23 A. No, no. And no one knows where they are. No one ever heard
24 anything about them.
25 Q. Were there any -- to your knowledge, Witness, were there any men
1 from Room 3 who survived that incident?
2 A. Yes, there were. I even talked to them later.
3 Q. And approximately how many people survived the shooting that
5 A. That night, there were, as far as I know, more than 100 survivors.
6 Q. What, if anything, happened to the Room 3 survivors?
7 A. The next day, the same men from Room 3 were beaten up in the
8 evening and they were beaten up in front of these two rooms, 3 and 4.
9 There were also individual shots fired from pistols, and on the basis of
10 the stories by people who saw that and those who were counting the dead,
11 apparently there were 25 men killed on that day from Room number 3.
12 Q. Do you know whose shift was on when those men were killed?
13 A. It wasn't important whose shift it was on duty. I cannot -- if I
14 calculate it, I perhaps could arrive at the exact shift. But this Banovic
15 would come to any shift - shifts didn't mean anything to him - except when
16 he was in Kole's shift, he couldn't do anything because Kole was
17 watchful. They didn't do it when Kajin was there either but Kajin would
18 go away. Whereas Fustar allowed all this to happen. In fact, I was
19 beaten in his presence. He allowed all this.
20 Q. Witness, after the Room 3 massacre, how long did you remain in
21 Keraterm camp?
22 A. Well, we stayed in the Keraterm camp, all of us were there, until
23 the 5th of August. And on the 5th of August, the Keraterm camp was
24 emptied. Some of us went to Trnopolje, 1.000 odd men, nobody knows how
25 many, and 120 men were taken in two buses to Omarska. And they did arrive
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 in Omarska. They were beaten on the way. They were even beaten when they
2 -- while they were being called out, even then when they lined up in
3 front of those two buses, and I watched it with my own eyes. And those
4 who were calling out the names, some 15 men went from my room. The
5 largest number of men were taken from Room 3, and even the leader, the
6 foreman of that room, that is the man who was put in charge of that room,
7 and they were put on those buses. Sikirica was present there. He saw it
8 all. It was Fustar's shift. And then they were taken to Omarska, and
9 people saw them arrive in Omarska. And with those same buses, they
10 proceeded to Trnopolje. In the buses those people were covered in blood
11 and all trace is lost of them. And those people were found dead, their
12 bodies were exhumed near Sanski Most. Whether they are all there, I don't
13 know. Probably yes, but I wouldn't know.
14 Q. Now, Witness, following the Room 3 massacre, and prior to your
15 being taken to a different camp, did you have an opportunity to discuss
16 the Room 3 massacre with other detainees?
17 A. Yes, I did have an opportunity to do that, but they hardly knew
18 more than I did. This is how it happened. They were in that room and
19 there were, I think -- there were three times more people in that room,
20 which was smaller than mine, so they were packed like matches in a match
21 box, and they were so packed that you simply couldn't see what was
22 happening around you. But I guess that it was the ammonia which was the
23 reason for the suffocation, for the very close air, and there were just
24 too many. And this ammonia could reach them from the WC. I mean, there
25 were doors, of course, but they do not seal properly, none of them seal
1 properly. And I suppose -- they also think that. They did not say that
2 somebody perhaps threw in some kind of acid or a smoke bomb or something
3 like that. There were no smoke bombs because we would have all felt the
4 effects of such a smoke bomb. But be that as it may, they really couldn't
5 reason; they were beyond themselves. They were frightened out of their
6 senses. And many of them still cannot really give a proper account.
7 Those who did know, those who saw it, they are dead.
8 Q. Witness, did you discuss Kole's role in the massacre with anyone
9 from Room 1 who would have been in a position to see and hear what was
10 going on that night?
16 There were guys who saw that and they also heard Kole saying,
17 "Don't fire in this direction." And he stood in front of the room which
18 was least protected, Room 1, because it was wide open. There were no
19 walls so that bullets could enter the room directly.
20 Q. And finally, Witness, you indicated that you were taken from
21 Keraterm to Trnopolje. Do you recall approximately what day that was and
22 approximately how long you remained at Trnopolje?
23 A. I was taken to Trnopolje on the 5th of August and I spent 8 days
24 in Trnopolje until the 13th of August, that is, and then I was released,
25 but I was told that I had to sign papers whereby I would be leaving all my
1 property to Republika Srpska. And I was also requested to leave Republika
2 Srpska immediately. Those were the conditions under which they could
3 release me from that camp, from Trnopolje. And my parents, my family did
4 it for me. They got those papers for my brother and for myself.
5 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no further questions
6 for this witness at this time, but before I sit down, I just wanted a
7 clarification with respects to Exhibits 3, 4, and 5 that those have, in
8 fact, been admitted into evidence.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, they have.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, with the kind cooperation of the
12 interpreters, I think we can go to 4.30.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
14 Q. Witness B, can I just first say this to you, please: Please
15 listen to my question and then just answer the question. It will make it
16 much quicker for you if you do that. Second thing is if you don't
17 understand my question, please tell me straight away and ask me to repeat
18 it or rephrase it. Do you understand that?
19 A. I do, yes.
20 Q. Witness B, can you tell me a little bit, please, about this:
21 Prior to the war which broke out in 1992, did you participate on an active
22 basis in politics in any way?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Since the war, have you participated actively in politics?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Or contributed money to political parties in any way?
2 A. Heaven forbid.
3 Q. I'd like to ask you now, please, about your military service. You
4 did your national service presumably when you were a young man; is that
6 A. It is.
7 Q. And without being specific about the dates, would that have been
8 sometime around the end of the 1970s?
9 A. That was in 1980 to be exact.
10 Q. You've served subsequently in the military forces of your country,
11 haven't you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. From when to when?
14 A. Could you clarify this question? Does it -- do you mean the
15 country before the war or the country since the war?
16 Q. After your release from Keraterm and Trnopolje, you served in the
17 military forces?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And from which date until which date did you serve in the military
21 A. Must I answer this question?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
23 A. I served from the day of my arrival in Travnik from Prijedor, and
24 that was the 29th of September until the end of the war.
25 MR. GREAVES:
1 Q. As far as you are concerned, when was the end of the war?
2 A. The end of the war was on the 22nd of April when the hostilities
3 were terminated. That is when all of us who were not professional
4 soldiers became civilians again.
5 Q. Was that 1995?
6 A. No, that was in 1996.
7 Q. Is this correct, that the branch of the service, and I assume that
8 that was the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is this right: That the unit in which you served was a unit which
11 might be called a special forces unit engaged in covert operations behind
12 enemy lines; is that correct?
13 A. No, it is not correct.
14 Q. Were you engaged in acts of sabotage?
15 A. I did not engage in sabotage.
16 Q. Since the war, or indeed during the war, did you at any time work
17 for the security services or intelligence services or police services of
19 A. No.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Your Honour. The time periods that
22 Mr. Greaves is referring to are well after the time frame that's alleged
23 in this indictment. I fail to see the relevance of this witness'
24 participation in any government position after the time alleged in the
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we'll allow him to go a little further.
2 It may go to credibility.
3 MR. GREAVES: Well, Your Honour has identified exactly what the
4 point is, and there's a good reason for it.
5 Q. Witness B, it's right, isn't it, that in the mid-1990s you made a
6 number of statements to the security services of Bosnia-Herzegovina; do
7 you accept that?
8 A. This is correct, yes. About this case, about the Keraterm case.
9 Q. Yes. Help us about this: After the defendant in this case, Dusko
10 Sikirica was arrested, you were contacted by a newspaper, weren't you?
11 A. Yes, Dnevni Avaz.
12 Q. Do you know how it was that they got hold of your name out of the
13 many hundreds of people who were in Keraterm? Did they tell you that?
14 A. They did. They called Sanski Most radio. That is Muslims were
15 seeking information. They were trying to find somebody who could tell
16 them something about Sikirica, and somebody told them that I might be one
17 of those. And that was how they came by my number, and I could not really
18 tell them anything specific, nor did I really want to tell them anything.
19 Whether they did write a story, whether they published anything, I haven't
20 the slightest because I never even read the papers then.
2 Q. All right. Let's move on now, if we may, please, to the 30th of
3 April, 1992. That was the date, was it not, when the Serbs took over the
4 opstina of Prijedor. Do you recall that?
5 A. Which date?
6 Q. 30th of April, 1992, Witness B.
7 A. I think that is right.
8 Q. Without telling us where you used to live, did you live actually
9 in the town of Prijedor or in a village outside?
10 A. In the suburbs, in Donje Puharska.
11 Q. And in April of 1992, were you in employment?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Between the takeover of the opstina by the Serbs and the date of
14 your arrest, were you able to continue to move freely about Prijedor,
15 obviously with checkpoints and so on having been set up, but apart from
16 that, were you able to continue to move freely?
17 A. Well, I moved about.
18 Q. At the end of May, 1992, is this correct, that there was military
19 activity and fighting in the Prijedor area?
20 A. Yes, that is right.
21 Q. And is it correct that there was fighting between forces of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serb forces?
23 A. I wouldn't call it the forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'd much
24 rather call them men who were defending their homesteads.
25 Q. Is this correct, that following upon whatever sort of fighting it
1 was, the Serb authorities began at that point to round people up?
2 A. The Serb authorities began to round people up after they had
3 cleansed the villages with little resistance, that is Kozarac, Marina
4 Brdo, the one up there, and following the attack on Prijedor, that is when
5 they began to cleanse us. We had all turned over our weapons, I mean from
6 the TO, from the Territorial Defence. We also had reserve police. The
7 regular -- a regular unit -- well, I suppose that there are such units the
8 world over. That is, nobody did, at his own initiative or something. It
9 was under -- by statute, we had this territorial Defence and the reserve
11 Q. Did you take part in any of the fighting that you've described,
12 whether it's defending your homesteads or whatever? Did you personally
13 take part in that?
14 A. No, I did not.
15 Q. In the area in which you lived, the suburb in which you lived,
16 it's right, isn't it, that the people who were arrested were only those
17 who were of military age and who were male? Do you accept that?
18 A. I don't know if a 94-year-old man is militarily able.
19 Q. Well, the majority, the very large majority, of those arrested,
20 they were military-aged men whom the Serbs considered to be dangerous to
21 them. That's right, isn't it?
22 A. Well, yes, you could put it that way.
23 Q. And indeed, it is in precisely that way that I have put to you
24 that you told the Office of the Prosecutor in August of last year in a
25 statement which you made to them. Do you remember that?
1 A. I remember answering their questions, and I told them how it was.
2 Q. Witness B, when you were arrested, is this correct, that you were
3 told that the purpose of your detention was in order to carry out an
4 interrogation of you and of the others who were detained?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. At the time when you were arrested, how many others were arrested
7 and transported with you to Keraterm?
8 A. I'd say between 300 and 350. Well, perhaps less than 400, but
9 something of the order of 300, 350.
10 Q. And apart from some who were over what you would consider military
11 age, those people in those -- you were transported by bus, is that right?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. The people on the buses, men, again, all of military age,
14 therefore no children, no women, no people who were physically disabled
15 from being in the military?
16 A. There were those under age. There were also disabled. Nobody
17 asked you, "Are you disabled or not?" They simply see that that man was
18 not too old and he'd be taken along.
19 Q. When you got to Keraterm, were there any detainees there before
20 you, or were you the first?
21 A. I've already said so. There were five or six.
22 Q. And during the course of that first day, did others -- were others
23 brought in from other areas of Prijedor?
24 A. On that first day they were not brought there. It was -- it was
25 only us from Puharska and from Cejreci, which is a village above ours.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Witness B, when you got to Keraterm - you had worked at the
2 premises before the war - did it show any signs of being essentially any
3 different from the building which you remembered?
4 A. No. This building looks as it should, but it seems to me that
5 there were some corrections made.
6 Q. You'll have to help us as to what exactly you mean by
7 "corrections," Witness B. I don't think that's entirely clear.
8 A. Here, the entrance into Rooms 3 and 4, to the lavatory, there were
9 some doors -- there was a door. Now I don't see it. It seems to have
10 been covered or something.
11 Q. Compared with the building upon which you had worked before the
12 war, were there any signs of any sort that any preparations had been made
13 to receive large numbers of detainees?
14 A. No, there weren't. I wouldn't say so. It was empty, and that is
15 I think why they put us there.
16 Q. From what you were able to observe in the first few days of your
17 detention at Keraterm, was it your impression, your conclusion, that it
18 had been opened as a detention facility without any sort of organisation
19 or preparation?
20 A. I believe it was prepared in advance because there were buses
21 there, there was a unit rounding up one street, another unit rounding up
22 another street. They knew exactly whom to take along.
23 Q. That's in relation to the people who were being detained. I was
24 talking, Witness B, about the building itself and the nature of the
25 organisation in the first few days.
1 A. I did say that the building was not built for the purpose -- for
2 that purpose. A factory was built as a factory. It was a factory and
3 worked as a factory.
4 Q. And in the sense of organisation, in other words, organisation of
5 personnel, were you able to gain such impression of that as to whether
6 that had been organised in advance?
7 A. Well, I suppose it was. Because one cannot go and know strictly
8 what his area of responsibilities or what, unless he received instructions
9 from somebody. So I suppose I do not have such knowledge. I wasn't one
10 of them. I wasn't planning that so I cannot know.
11 Q. There was no food for the first couple of days; is that right?
12 A. It is.
13 Q. And for a short period, it's right, wasn't it, that families were
14 able to bring food to the camp and that was brought through to the
16 A. That's right. But it lasted only for a very short time, only
17 until Bajram, and it was only a few days later. On Bajram we did not get
18 such food. We got nothing on Bajram.
19 Q. I'd like to turn now to a particular individual, I want to know
20 whether you know anything of him. Does the name Zivko Knezevic mean
21 anything to you?
22 A. Zivko Knezevic?
23 Q. Yes. A man probably aged around 60 or so, a former policeman.
24 A. Yes, I've heard -- I've heard that he was the warden of the camp
25 or at least responsible for it. Now it came back to me when you said that
1 he was a policeman. Yes, I've heard it. I didn't have any such
2 knowledge, but that is what I heard, that he was responsible for the
3 detainees in this Keraterm, that he was the man in charge of that.
4 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honour will just give me a moment.
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 MR. GREAVES:
7 Q. Help us about this, please, Witness B: That person, Zivko
8 Knezevic, did you know him in such way by sight at all?
9 A. I don't know how he looks even now, to date.
10 Q. Did you hear from other detainees of his presence in the camp?
11 A. As far as I know, he did -- if he had come, I probably would have
12 seen him or probably even met him.
13 Q. Just help me and clarify, please. The question that I asked was
14 did you hear from other detainees that he was in the camp or that he had
15 been seen in the camp?
16 A. I heard that he was seen in the camp. Had he been there
17 constantly, I would have known. So he came occasionally.
18 Q. And that was throughout the period in which you were detained
19 there; is that right?
20 A. I think that I was detained there almost from the beginning.
21 Q. Yes. Let me clarify the question for you, Witness B. You heard
22 of the visits of Zivko Knezevic taking place throughout your period of
23 detention; is that right?
24 A. Yes, something like that.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: But he did say, Mr. Greaves, "occasionally". I'd
1 just like to clarify exactly what his evidence is.
2 MR. GREAVES: I don't think I've disputed that. I just wanted to
3 clarify over what period.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue.
5 MR. GREAVES:
6 Q. Witness B, can you help me, please, about this: You've told us
7 about a man called Jovo who was a Serb who was killed whilst at Keraterm.
8 Are you able to help us about such other Serb prisoners who were there?
9 A. The question is unclear to me. Are you referring to the prisoners
10 who were ethnic Serbs?
11 Q. What you told us earlier is that there was no other Serbs that
12 were kept as prisoners at the camp.
13 A. From what I know, there was only that one.
14 Q. Do you recall being interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor
15 and making a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in January 1995,
16 Witness B?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And do you remember at the end of making the statement, signing
19 all the pages and acknowledging that the statement was true to the best of
20 your knowledge and recollection?
21 A. I believe that that was so, yes. Perhaps I do not recall
22 something. A number of years have passed.
23 Q. So what you told the Office of the Prosecutor then was that there
24 was a third room which contained Serb military prisoners and that those
25 prisoners -- I'm sorry, that when more prisoners arrived, the Serb
1 prisoners were moved to an office area as there were only about 10 of
2 them. Do you recall telling that to the Office of the Prosecutor?
3 A. Let me clarify. I said something but not that. These Serb
4 prisoners, those who were in the Serb detention were in Room 4. And from
5 Room 4, they were moved to the back of Keraterm where a detention facility
6 was made for them. And this is what I said.
7 Q. Yes. Witness B, during your evidence when you were answering
8 questions from Mr. Mundis, I suggest to you that you first of all
9 indicated that there were no other Serbs at Keraterm, and that was not
10 true, not truthful evidence. That's right, isn't it?
11 A. How do you mean there were no other Serbs? You mean -- you mean
12 what -- when I referred to Jovo?
13 Q. Yes. When you were giving evidence about Jovo, you told the
14 Tribunal that there were no other Serbs at Keraterm. You were trying to
15 conceal the fact that there were, in fact, other Serbs there, weren't you?
16 A. I did not try to conceal that. I gave it in a statement so that
17 is a proof that I wasn't trying to conceal anything.
18 Q. Why were these people being kept at the camp?
19 A. One was taking money. He was from Jelovac. I know -- I was in
20 their detention facility. I was cleaning there. I knew two of these
21 detainees so I exchanged a few words with them. Jugo and Cvarak were
22 there so they know who these men are. Kajin also knows because he was
23 there when this Jugo arrived, and the man from Jelovac was in the bus and
24 he asked for money and he hit me. This is why he asked for that. You
25 probably know why people get detained better than I do.
1 Q. You can now remember quite a lot about these people, Witness B.
2 Just help us again. Why exactly did you not tell us about them earlier
3 when you were asked by counsel for the Prosecution?
4 A. That question was not that important. I was talking about the
5 crime and the inhumane acts. This was something on the side, and I have
6 omitted that they were moved to other room, and that was the room where I
7 went with my men.
8 Q. Was it because you were trying to emphasise in some way that this
9 was simply a place for detaining Muslims or a Serb who had voted for the
10 SDA? Is that why you didn't tell us about them earlier?
11 A. For someone who may have voted for SDA or not, which was the case
12 of Jovo, this happened a month and a half later. This has nothing to do
13 with that room and with the detention of those Serb soldiers, those
14 soldiers who were detained but then quickly released.
15 Q. Let's move on. The people who were detained at Keraterm, would
16 you help us about this, please: On average, how many people were detained
17 there at one time throughout your stay?
18 A. On average, there were about 1100 and 1300 men that were kept at
19 Keraterm at any one time.
20 Q. And throughout the period of your detention and their detention,
21 would this be correct, they were wholly in the power of the Serb
22 authorities in Prijedor?
23 A. Whom are you referring to? The detainees?
24 Q. The detainees, Witness B.
25 A. Certainly, they were wholly under the authority of any Serb in
2 Q. And would you also accept this, that during that period of
3 detention, those people could have been killed at any time en masse by
4 those very same Serb authorities?
5 A. I think that they could have done that. If they killed some, they
6 could have killed all.
7 Q. At the beginning of your period of detention, Witness B, some
8 detainees were interrogated and subsequently released. How many were so
10 A. Those who were released numbered 100 to 140.
11 Q. And those people were issued with some sort of pass which enabled
12 them to move freely about Prijedor; is that right?
13 A. Only in the -- within the limits of the town itself.
14 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Your Honour, I'm about to move on to another
15 topic, which will not take two minutes.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We will take the adjournment now.
17 Before we do, Mr. Ryneveld, there is a matter I wanted to raise
18 with you. I believe in your opening you referred to common enterprise.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Does the Prosecution case of a common enterprise,
21 joint enterprise, relate to all the charges in the indictment, including
22 in particular those dealing with the treatment in the prison? If you --
23 you don't have to answer it now. You can let us know tomorrow.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. We will be prepared to provide an
25 answer by tomorrow.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
2 Witness B, you are reminded not to discuss your evidence with
3 anybody, including members of the Prosecution team.
4 We will adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
6 4.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday the 22nd day
7 of March, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.