1 Thursday, 22 March 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, yes.

7 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

8 WITNESS: WITNESS B [Resumed]

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves: [Continued]

10 Q. Witness B, I just want to quickly follow up two matters that we

11 spoke about yesterday. Firstly in connection with your military service,

12 when you served in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, what type of military

13 unit did you serve in; in other words, infantry, artillery, signals?

14 A. Infantry.

15 Q. And did you achieve any rank of any kind above that of private

16 soldier?

17 A. No.

18 Q. The second matter I just want to ask you about is the Serb

19 prisoners who were detained at Keraterm whom you were eventually able to

20 recall for us. It's right, isn't it, that at least one, if not more, were

21 detained at Keraterm because they had mistreated detainees; is that right?

22 A. It is.

23 Q. I want to turn now, please, to the interrogation which was

24 conducted of you in Keraterm. How soon after your arrest was the

25 interrogation carried out?

1 A. It could have been some 8 days later.

2 Q. And did you know the persons who were interrogating you? Did you

3 know their names? Were you told their names?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Is this correct that the -- was it a single individual

6 interrogating you or more than one person?

7 A. I was interrogated by one person.

8 Q. And did you learn from him or learn from some other source that he

9 was a policeman, an inspector in the police?

10 A. No, I did not.

11 Q. The questions which you were asked, did they fall into these

12 categories: First of all, questions about your politics and whether you

13 had been involved in politics in any way?

14 A. No. They asked me what was I doing during those days, what did I

15 know about people who had weapons or did this or that, that is, they were

16 mostly interested in developments before Keraterm.

17 Q. Is this correct in relation to interrogations as a whole, that if

18 a detainee was suspected of having taken part, for example, in military

19 activity or some activity considered dangerous to the Serb authorities,

20 they were subsequently taken to Omarska; is that correct?

21 A. I don't know. It could be.

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 A. Yes.

25 [redacted], there were two

1 occasions when you were beaten, and the reasons why you were beaten was

2 firstly because you were -- would not find and would not name two

3 extremists for the policeman who showed you his ID card; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And on the second occasion because a fellow prisoner could not

6 physically get out to be beaten?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness B. I want now to just turn to other beatings

9 and the motives for those. The beating of the man Car, the focus of the

10 animosity towards him was the allegation that he had been arrested in

11 possession of a machine-gun; is that correct?

12 A. That is what I heard. I don't know if that is correct.

13 Q. Of course, I understand that you obviously weren't there. That

14 was what you heard was the cause of the beating.

15 The next one is Fajzo. I'm not sure if that's the correct

16 pronunciation, witness B. Did you know of the reason for his beating?

17 A. They didn't beat Faca. Faca beat them.

18 Q. I'm talking about the man who was cut with a knife across his

19 neck.

20 A. Fajzo.

21 Q. My fault for not being a very good pronouncer of your language,

22 and I apologise, Witness B. You'll have to forgive me. Did you hear what

23 the reasons for the assault on him was?

24 A. I did hear something, that Knezevic's brother had been killed, and

25 that it had to do with that. Who had killed him, I don't know. I heard

1 that it was a Serb who had killed him and that Knezevic also killed him

2 afterwards and so on.

3 Q. Emsud Bahonjic, who was beaten by Zigic and Duca, did you hear

4 what the reason for that beating was?

5 A. He came from the area of Kozarac and he was told that he had had a

6 sniper, but on his death bed he swore to me by everything dear to him that

7 he never had a sniper.

8 Q. Then the beating of an Albanian person called Jasmin, is this

9 correct, that the reason why he was ill-treated was there was some

10 jealousy or dispute about the bakery which he ran near the railway

11 station?

12 A. I don't know the reason. All I know is that he was called out and

13 beaten up.

14 Q. Would this be correct, Witness B, that many beatings were carried

15 out by people who wanted to extort money from detainees or who wanted to

16 settle old scores or repay old debts from before the conflict? Would that

17 be correct?

18 A. Yes, very likely.

19 Q. And for example, Zigic, who was I think a guard for a very short

20 period of time, he lost his job because of his behaviour towards

21 detainees, didn't he?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And he in particular used to pick on detainees whom he had known

24 before the war, former colleagues and so on, with whom he wanted to settle

25 old accounts?

1 A. He mostly pounced upon detainees from the area of Kozarac.

2 Q. Is it right that he would come to the camp and ask a detainee, for

3 example, to provide within a defined time limit money or gold or watches,

4 and that if he didn't get anything, he would then beat detainees?

5 A. Yes, that is quite right.

6 Q. And after his dismissal from the camp, he would return usually at

7 night to commit further beatings; is that right?

8 A. He was detained but he left the -- his place of detention whenever

9 he liked. Allegedly he fired shots and wounded a man. I saw that.

10 Q. Do you know who it was who procured his removal from the camp?

11 A. I don't know, but as likely as not the major part was played by

12 Kajin because he was the one who helped most at the time.

13 Q. Is this correct, that there were frequently occasions when either

14 guards or shift commanders would intervene to stop or prevent beatings

15 from taking place?

16 A. They didn't intervene frequently but he is not quite normal

17 person.

18 Q. I want to turn now, please, to the incident involving Room 3 which

19 you have described to Their Honours. Before the shooting started that

20 night, is it right that you heard singing and shouting from Room 3?

21 A. Yes, I heard that.

22 Q. That was after 9.00 at night?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You told Their Honours yesterday that you had been locked up and

25 that nobody was looking outside at all and that you could only hear what

1 was going on. At what time had you been locked up?

2 A. Well, that day, I think we were locked up a little bit earlier

3 because obviously something was afoot, and everybody knew that something

4 was going to happen. But I wouldn't know the time, because the time had

5 stopped for all of us at that time.

6 Q. Yes. What time were you normally locked up at night?

7 A. 9.00.

8 Q. And you think that on this occasion you had been locked up earlier

9 than 9.00?

10 A. I'm not sure, but I think it -- yes, that it was before 9.00.

11 Q. And is it your position that after being locked up, you saw

12 nothing else of what happened outside the building?

13 A. I didn't. No, I didn't see anything else.

14 Q. Why, then, did you tell the Office of the Prosecutor in January

15 1995 that after 9.00 p.m., you describe in your statement what happened

16 after 9.00 p.m., "They started -- prisoners in Room 3 started singing and

17 were yelling. They broke the windows in their room. After the prisoners

18 broke the windows, they started throwing prisoners out of the window. I

19 do not know if the prisoners were alive or dead. Around this time, I saw

20 a bus with some soldiers on it arrive at the camp."

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, please.

22 MR. GREAVES: My apologies.

23 Q. Do you remember telling the Office of the Prosecutor that?

24 A. I may have. But at that time there is a small portion which we

25 could see the entrance into the camp which we could see from Room 4, and

1 that is because the door to our room did not close completely so we could

2 see some of this. And we saw some movement there, but we did not see

3 these events. We could hear, however, the door being opened or closed,

4 somebody being put in that room or what is being said because that was

5 quite near.

6 Q. So when you say you didn't see anything else, that's not entirely

7 true, is it? You did see other things. Why didn't you tell us that in

8 the first place, Witness B?

9 A. Well, what the statement says should be accurate.

10 Q. After the incident had taken place the following day, did you come

11 to know anything of the role in the incident of Zivko Knezevic?

12 A. I didn't know that. All I do know is that I heard that he had

13 come, and that after that, Kole threw his rifle away. But that is what I

14 heard. I don't know if that really happened.

15 Q. Briefly just one thing about the beatings which took place on the

16 26th of July, Witness B, that was carried out by the Banovic brothers and

17 somebody whose name you didn't know; is that right?

18 A. It is, yes. I know that they had a hand in that, but I do not

19 know exactly what happened.

20 Q. About a week or so before the closure of the camp at Keraterm, a

21 new warden, upravnik, was appointed to be in charge; is that right?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. His name was Marinko Sandzak?

24 A. I think so, yes.

25 Q. And so on the date of the closure of the camp, the person in

1 charge of what happened there was that person.

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. As far as the prisoners, detainees, who were sent to Omarska, how

4 do you personally know that they were sent to Omarska?

5 A. Those men were indeed sent to Omarska. And what I said was that

6 those two buses went to Omarska and people saw them. They saw them get

7 off, and those others boarded the buses and came to Trnopolje with them,

8 and they saw that these buses were stained with blood.

9 Q. Can you help me, please, about the lists which you prepared. This

10 is correct, is it not, most of the people on those lists, 90 per cent or

11 more, survived; is that correct?

12 A. You could say so. Yes, you could say so.

13 Q. Would you be able, by looking at those lists again, to identify

14 from them those whom you say were killed?

15 A. About some, yes. About others, those who went to Omarska, I

16 wouldn't be able to say anything because I don't know what happened to

17 them.

18 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, we would like him to do that, if

19 possible. It may be time-consuming to have it done here in court. I

20 wonder whether it would be possible for him to agree to do it after he's

21 completed his evidence and then to hand it through to the Prosecution.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We could have it done that way.

24 MR. GREAVES: I think that would be time saving rather than him

25 sitting there poring through lists and writing out names. I think that

1 would be a sensible way to do it. Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you continue, I apologise for interrupting

3 you.

4 MR. GREAVES: Not at all.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, please stand.

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, sir.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are not attired for the purpose of

8 discharging your functions in this courtroom. You are excused so as to

9 get yourself properly attired.

10 MR. VUCICEVIC: I apologise, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: And please don't let it happen again.

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue.

14 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness B. I'd like you to do that after you've

16 completed your evidence, if you would be so kind, and if you would be so

17 kind to hand that, I think, to Mr. Mundis who is in charge of you and he

18 will then hand it through to us.

19 Finally, witness B, I want to ask two questions. The first is

20 this: As far as Dusko Sikirica is concerned would you accept this: That

21 in general, he would be found and keep himself over at the hut which was

22 near to the gate of Keraterm?

23 A. Right, yes. He spent a lot of time in that hut, but he also spent

24 a lot of time outside the hut.

25 Q. As far as you being told what his role was when you first got to

1 the camp, again you can't recall who it was who told you that; is that

2 correct?

3 A. I can't remember. It could have been Kajin or somebody else. We

4 asked around and we learned what we wanted to know, and of course we

5 wanted to know who was the person in charge there.

6 Q. I suggest to you that the title which was given to you was that he

7 was commander of security; is that correct?

8 A. I wouldn't know exactly. What I know, he was the commander of

9 those three on the shifts. That is the extent of my knowledge.

10 Q. I suggest to you that you're not right about that, that you're

11 mistaken as to what his role was. In fact, his role was commander of

12 security, meaning commander of the perimeter fence.

13 A. May I ask a question?

14 Q. I don't think so.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not for you to ask questions. Answer the

16 questions asked of you by counsel or by the court.

17 JUDGE MAY: Can I ask him a question?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

19 JUDGE MAY: Just help us with this, Witness B. What did you see

20 Mr. Sikirica doing at the camp, from which you might be able to form a

21 judgement about what his role was?

22 A. Whenever I needed something -- whenever we needed something, for

23 instance, if we needed a doctor in the camp, I had to go to Sikirica and

24 ask for that doctor, or anything else. Whenever we needed something, for

25 instance, we would tell Kole, Kajin or Fustar, but whenever it was

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 something of some importance, then it was Sikirica we went to. And I

2 never noticed that he was anything else except a commander of those

3 others.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, thank you.

5 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I have no further questions, thank you

6 very much, subject of course to him providing that list, which I think he

7 should sign. I think that would be helpful, if Your Honour is agreeable

8 to that.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. He could sign it, yes.

10 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic?

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I proceed?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Good morning, Witness B. I am Goran Rodic, attorney from

17 Podgorica and I'm part of the counsel of Mr. -- representing Mr. Damir

18 Dosen, called Kajin. Let me first ask you regarding your yesterday's

19 evidence, when -- during your examination in chief, when answering to the

20 Prosecutor's questions, you said that you moved in the same circle with

21 Kajin, and I would like to ask you where it was that you went out together

22 and where you saw each other?

23 A. Perhaps I could express myself better. We were not part of the

24 same circle but we moved -- we would meet in the same coffee bars, same

25 places.

1 Q. In this socialising or in seeing each other in these various

2 coffee bars, was there any difference between the two of you on any basis?

3 A. No.

4 Q. These groups in coffee bars where you would see Kajin and other

5 people, were these groups composed of people from various ethnic

6 backgrounds?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Yesterday you also gave evidence about cooperation and friendship

9 between Cirkin Polje and Donja Puharska.

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. Given that the accused Kajin is also from Cirkin Polje, can you

12 tell me whether he too was part of this socialising, and how was that

13 expressed?

14 A. It was from the youth gatherings, sports, working together, young

15 people from these communities gathered.

16 Q. And did Mr. Kajin participate in that? Did you see him there?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. I would like to ask you some questions regarding Keraterm now.

19 What I'm interested in is when was Kajin at Keraterm and when he was

20 there, did he try to alleviate your conditions? In other words, did he

21 allow you to stay outside of the room? Did he allow you access to water

22 and things like that?

23 A. Yes. He even drove us to see a physician if anybody needed it.

24 He would -- made a van available for that. He always did that.

25 Fortunately for us, things were good when Kajin was around.

1 Q. This is not in the record. Did I understand you well to have said

2 that a van was made available that would take them -- that would take the

3 prisoners to visit a physician?

4 A. I think that there was a van around there which, as needed, was

5 used to drive prisoners. I don't know whether it was always there,

6 whether they called in for this van, but there was a van there.

7 Q. Do you know whether Kajin was the one who organised this, who --

8 A. We used to know him and he talked nicely to us so we were not

9 afraid of him. So we went to him when we needed something. He always did

10 whatever we -- he could for us, as much as he could, provide water, help

11 us get medical treatment, whatever we needed.

12 Q. During his shift were you able to be outside of the room?

13 A. During his shift, yes, we could.

14 Q. Could you please tell me during your stay at Keraterm, did you see

15 Kajin beating anyone or mistreat anyone while he was at Keraterm?

16 A. No, he did not.

17 Q. Did you hear, perhaps?

18 A. I heard from one person, but I don't know whether that was true or

19 not. He should say. I cannot.

20 Q. Can you tell me, in his presence, were any of the prisoners beaten

21 or mistreated?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Could you tell me, did you see or hear whether he ever issued an

24 order for someone to be mistreated?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Yesterday, during your examination-in-chief, you also said that

2 after a period of time, you transferred from Room 1 to Room 4.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And in that connection, you mentioned Kajin?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. My question to you is whether Kajin's suggestion to move from one

7 room to another, you understood as his attempt to improve the conditions

8 under which you were housed in Room 1, given the overcrowdedness?

9 A. Of course we were better off there. We also felt safer and we

10 felt that we were under his protection.

11 Q. Could you tell me whether it ever happened that Kajin, as your

12 superior leader, in a way, did he ever ask you to collect any money for

13 him?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you know Kajin's brother?

16 A. Drazan, I met him in the camp.

17 Q. Was Kajin's brother also known by the same nickname?

18 A. Some people did, and some people called him by his first name. He

19 was a very fine fellow.

20 Q. But if I understand you correctly, you also heard some people

21 address him as Kajin too?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was Kajin's brother, and you said that his name was Drazan,

24 working in the same shift with Damir?

25 A. Yes, he did.

1 Q. Was this throughout your stay in the camp?

2 A. No. He worked in the same shift with him before these 12-hour

3 shifts were created. I think that at first there were 24-hour shifts in

4 the beginning.

5 Q. Can you tell me what was Kajin's brother's behaviour?

6 A. He behaved well. I had asked him to bring some styrofoam, and he

7 allowed me, and we went there to get it together.

8 Q. Can you tell us why you needed this styrofoam?

9 A. We placed the styrofoam on the concrete and so we could use it for

10 sitting.

11 Q. I am going to ask you a question now, and please remember not to

12 mention any names. Was your brother also imprisoned in Keraterm?

13 A. Yes, he was.

14 Q. And again, without mentioning any names, could you tell me what

15 period of time this covered?

16 A. From the 31st to the 5th of August, the same period of time when I

17 was detained.

18 Q. Can you tell me in which room he was housed?

19 A. He was housed in the same room where I was, in Room 4, and we went

20 through the same procedure. We were interrogated and after the

21 interrogation, we were moved and we ended up in Room 4.

22 Q. If I understood you correctly, first it was -- he was in Room 2,

23 then Room 1 and, in the end, Room 4; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell me whether your brother was beaten or mistreated?

1 A. Yes, he was both beaten and mistreated. This was done by Keli and

2 a relative of Zoran Karlica and some other man who he did not know.

3 Q. Can you say how many times this happened?

4 A. He was taken out once.

5 Q. Do you know a person who was part of the guards' security detail

6 who went by the nickname of Crni, and if I can also maybe add that he was

7 driving a motorcycle before the war. He was -- the height was about 170

8 and he had a nickel-plated pistol.

9 A. I seem to remember some things but some things escape me so let me

10 not say anything about that.

11 Q. Could you at least tell us what sounds familiar regarding this

12 Crni?

13 A. I cannot say anything.

14 Q. Regarding the accused Dosen, I would like to ask you something

15 about his character, from your acquaintance with him, both from before the

16 war and during the war.

17 A. I cannot say anything bad about him. While we were young, we were

18 all a little bit wild. I guess people sort of become mature with age and

19 -- but my experiences of him are -- were most relevant relating to the

20 camp, and I can say what I heard from his neighbour, and it was a fine

21 family. His character was on the level.

22 Q. The record is not reflecting all -- what did you hear from the

23 neighbour?

24 A. I heard very nice things about the whole family. I don't know

25 their parents. Perhaps I know the -- I knew the father slightly but both

1 -- I meet both Damir and Drazen. I got to know them better in the camp

2 and I have no objection or complaint about what they did. Perhaps there

3 were some things that happened in his shift.

4 Q. Let me just take you back a little bit. When you said that your

5 brother was beaten once, and you stayed in the room together, the room of

6 which you were a leader, could you perhaps place it in time, the month or

7 the portion of month when this happened?

8 A. I think that that was -- that this happened during the middle part

9 of our stay in the camp. I cannot say exactly.

10 Q. That means the middle, around the middle -- mid-point in your stay

11 at Keraterm?

12 A. Yes, I think around that time.

13 Q. Can we agree that you were in Keraterm about two months and five

14 days?

15 A. Sixty-seven days.

16 Q. I see, 67 days. So the mid-point would be early July?

17 A. Yes, a few days up or down the calendar.

18 Q. Yesterday, during your examination in chief, you said that when

19 you arrived at Keraterm, you found five or six men from Kozarac who had

20 been detained and that there were 10 to 12 guards at Keraterm. Can you

21 tell me how this guard duties worked in those days?

22 A. I don't think that anybody really knew how this worked. They were

23 coming and going. Most of them were reserve policemen. I only recognised

24 the policeman Kosta among them. Then some left; others came. I have no

25 idea what was going on. But there were always some people there; that's

1 about what I know.

2 Q. Regarding the persons who you saw there, and one person that you

3 knew, were all these reserve policemen?

4 A. It is possible. I didn't know many of these people who I saw

5 there. Later on, I saw Kajin and then things changed a little bit. Kajin

6 had his unit and I think that the unit was brought there to provide

7 security. This is what people were saying. And this came out of

8 conversations.

9 Q. Regarding this period, were incidents frequent during the period?

10 A. No, not in those days, except the things that -- Zigic had this

11 special treatment group or a group for special treatment.

12 Q. The way you gave evidence here yesterday and today, some guards

13 left, some guards arrived. I take that to mean that it was fairly loose

14 in terms of the shifts and all that?

15 A. In those early, first days, nobody -- nobody really bothered us or

16 there weren't any major incidents.

17 Q. During the period when you saw these guards, before the three

18 shifts were established, and you also mentioned this group for special

19 treatment.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Given your overall experience, including your national service and

22 whatever you know from your civilian life about the military and police

23 organisation, can -- could you say that there was order and discipline in

24 those days?

25 A. No, there was no discipline. Well, I don't know. I don't know

1 about this group for special treatment, and I don't know about this

2 military discipline. Perhaps there was no need for anything like that.

3 We talked, we had contacts, except when there was beating, then there was

4 no talk.

5 Q. This is what I'm driving at. You were referring to some people as

6 shift commanders and let's say just plain guards. Could you make a

7 comparison between them and the hierarchy and organisation in a

8 professional police force or military force?

9 A. No, you could not make such a comparison. That was not it.

10 Q. Could you tell me whether you knew or had met Tomo Prodan who was

11 in security of Keraterm?

12 A. Yes, I knew Tomo, and he was there at the beginning.

13 Q. Do you know what his role in the camp was?

14 A. He was some kind of a commander.

15 Q. You mean shift commander of some kind?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you perhaps remember anyone who was on guard duty on his shift?

18 A. I remember a person called Krelac. He was not from Prijedor. He

19 had a long cable, I think an electric cable, pretty thick. He beat people

20 with it.

21 Q. In your assessment, if you can help me by trying to remember

22 approximately when the three shifts were introduced, that is the 12-hour

23 shifts that switched off, as you said?

24 A. Well, it may have been 20 days into my stay from what I can

25 remember but I cannot remember exactly.

1 Q. In these -- during these 20 days, can we say that Tomo Prodan was

2 in this position of a shift commander?

3 A. Yes, I believe that that was the case.

4 Q. Please tell me whether you know whether you saw, heard that some

5 higher-ups came to the Keraterm, that is, hierarchically above Kole,

6 Sikirica, Fustar?

7 A. Zivko, who was a retired policeman, I think he was superior to

8 them all.

9 Q. Zivko Knezevic?

10 A. I did not know him but I heard about him from others who did.

11 Q. Can you be more specific about it? What do you mean by saying

12 that he was superior to all of them?

13 A. Now I cannot, but he came dressed in a suit, with an overcoat on

14 his arm, in a Mercedes car like a boss.

15 Q. Did he come frequently?

16 A. No, not frequently. And again, let me say, I never saw him once.

17 I only heard about him having come.

18 Q. Did you hear that from the detainees?

19 A. Yes, from detainees.

20 Q. Did you hear that Zivko Knezevic ever reviewed the guards?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You mentioned that in this first period before the third shift was

23 formed, Tomo Prodan was also present at the camp as one of the

24 commanders. What I would like to know is whether you know that towards

25 the end of June something happened with the shift in a sense that somebody

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 left that so-called duty, that somebody took it over.

2 A. I don't know how correct this was, but I know that at one point,

3 Tomo was no longer around, and there were three shifts. Kole became one

4 of these shifts, and Kajin and Fustar were already shift commanders.

5 Q. Could you now please tell me -- I will read something to you. Can

6 you -- and if you can tell me whether this is correct that you testified

7 about your detention in the Keraterm camp and that you've given the

8 following statement so far. This is from the statement you gave on 23

9 August to the Tribunal investigators. This was the 23 August 2000.

10 Witness statement, you say, "This statement is for the previous

11 statement made by me enlisted below." And then listed as one statement

12 and then in brackets an ERN number is given, 00262312-00262313 dated 8

13 November 1993 made to the Bosnian authorities. "I read this statement on

14 23 August 2000. This statement is accurate."

15 Then listed as number two, statement dated 6 November 1994.

16 Again, in brackets, I am going to skip the ERN numbers, made to the

17 Bosnian authorities. "I read this statement on 23 August 2000. This

18 statement is accurate except for page 2, paragraph 6, line 10 where the

19 word broken and it should read built."

20 Listed under three, statement dated 19 January 1995 made to ICTY

21 investigator Stephen Upton, "This statement is accurate except it says

22 page 6, paragraph 2, line 2, this should read Kole beat a Serb who had

23 beaten prisoners." That is --

24 A. Who attempted to beat.

25 Q. And number 4, "In addition to these statements, I recall being

1 spoken to on 9 June 1999 by Hans Oelvebro. I had notes made by him read

2 back to me and I found these notes to be accurate." Is this correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. In this statement of the 23rd of August 2000 to the

5 OTP investigators, did you confirm that they were your statements, you

6 read them and signed them and are they all accurate?

7 A. That is how it should be.

8 Q. But if you read them and put your signature underneath?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, in relation to this, I should like to ask you the following:

11 Yesterday, during your direct examination, when the Prosecutor asked you,

12 you answered the beating of Drago Tokmadzic, Ismet Kljajic, Esad

13 Islamovic, Edin Islamovic and a Serb called Jovo happened during Kajin's

14 shift. Could you tell me how is it that it was during Kajin's shift?

15 A. Banovic, because he was on his shift.

16 Q. Do you mean it is because there was a guard, Banovic, and that is

17 how you identified the shift as Kajin's?

18 A. Yes, and Keli too.

19 Q. I see. It was through Banovic and Keli that you decided that it

20 was that shift?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And since you mention Banovic and you did so yesterday, you said

23 that there were -- that he observed no shifts?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. That he used to come by day or by night?

1 A. Yes. Whenever he needed something on his private business,

2 whatever, he just came.

3 Q. But would you then allow that it was possible that it wasn't

4 Kajin's shift when that happened?

5 A. Well, it was many years ago. All I can say is that Keli did not

6 -- at least I don't think he came during other shifts, but it is quite

7 possible that that had happened.

8 Q. Yesterday you also answered questions asked by the Prosecution and

9 said that the guard Keli on Kajin's shift beat you?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. On the basis of what do you know that it was Kajin's shift?

12 A. I know it was Kajin's shift precisely because, after that, it came

13 to a stop. That is, it happened on a number of occasions, whenever Kajin

14 arrived in the camp, incidents would stop, and that's how I know that that

15 was so.

16 Q. You mean that somebody had reported that Kajin was on his way?

17 A. Yes. That was night-time because it happened at night-time, and

18 the car -- the headlights as they entered towards Keraterm, you can see

19 them as arriving from Cirkin Polje and they already know who that is and

20 everything stops. That is, those things stopped at that moment.

21 Q. Could you tell us what month was that?

22 A. It was the latter half of my stay in the camp. It was the latter

23 half of my stay there. It could have been a month and a half since my

24 arrival there, thereabouts, perhaps a little earlier.

25 Q. Yesterday, during the examination in chief, the Prosecutor asked

1 you some questions and you answered that on Kajin's shift, that brothers

2 Banovic, Keli and Kajin's brother were all part of the Kajin shift, and

3 that Fustar's shift included Baltic, Kondic and Cigo. Is that correct?

4 We didn't hear an answer. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. In the statement you gave to the Bosnian authorities on the 6th of

7 November, 1994, number 2, 6 November, 1994 and you said that you read it

8 and signed it, thus confirming its authenticity, its accuracy, and you say

9 there on the first page: "There were three guard shifts in the camp. The

10 leader of one of these shifts was Damir Dosen called Kajin." Then you

11 list: "The shift also included his brother, Drazen or Drasko, his elder

12 brother, Bosko Baltic called Cvrco from Urije Prijedor, young, has a big

13 hooked knife, he used to work for Bosna Montaza in Prijedor. Brothers

14 Banovic, Nenad and Predrag." And then you go on to explain, "Predrag

15 Banovic called Cupo."

16 A. I wasn't quite sure about their names at that time. I wasn't sure

17 about that, but I couldn't have stated it as it is written because I do

18 know Bosko Baltic rather better than that.

19 Q. Let me just finish. In that same statement, you said that

20 Fustar's shift included Zoran Cica and Cigo. And now in relation to what

21 you told us previously, according to this, since on page 4 of this

22 statement you mention Fustar's shift, Kondic, Baltic, Cigo and others.

23 Now, when we juxtapose it to your previous-- to what you affirm previously

24 in the same statement, Kondic and Baltic were members of Kajin's shift?

25 A. Well, there must have been a confusion.

1 Q. But is that correct?

2 A. No, no, no, no, no, it is not correct. Baltic was not on Kajin's

3 shift. He was a member of Fustar's shift; I'm quite sure about that.

4 Q. You also said that Kondic was on Fustar's shift. In this

5 statement here you put him in Kajin's shift. That is, in the statement

6 that you gave to the Bosnian authorities in 1994.

7 A. No, it's a mistake. It was a mix-up or perhaps I was wrong.

8 Q. But you told us that you had read this statement and signed it as

9 accurate?

10 A. Well, it was read out to me and perhaps I wasn't listening all

11 that carefully, or perhaps I didn't hear well, but that is -- there are

12 already some corrections. Some descriptions are not correct. So there

13 could have been also a mistake which occurred in translation.

14 Q. But this statement was given to Bosnian authorities. There is no

15 translation. So it was in your mother tongue.

16 A. Oh, right, well, yes.

17 Q. So may we then suggest that -- at least say that these two

18 statements are different, that they are contradictory, and yet

19 nevertheless both of them say that they are accurate?

20 A. Yes, we can do that indeed.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you have made your point.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Likewise, in your statement to the Bosnian authorities on 6 of

24 November, 1994, same number as before, on the first page you list the

25 guards on Kajin's shift, which I read out to you a moment ago, and I see

1 here that guard nicknamed Keli is not mentioned here. Then in the next

2 passage in the same statement, you mention Keli. I shall read it out to

3 you to see how -- "I was mostly beaten by Keli, fair-haired, tall, about

4 180, about 26 or 27, has patch with the Serb trhee-colour on his shoulder,

5 and he also had a bandana with the -- those three colours." If we agree

6 that, as against the previously listed guards, you described Keli in

7 greatest detail, and yet you do not put him on Kajin's shift, how is it

8 that you forgot to list him as a guard on Kajin's shift on that occasion?

9 A. It was a formal statement. I never prepared myself to give any

10 statement. I didn't prepare now. And I'm saying only that I know and I

11 was responsible. Perhaps at that time he simply skipped my mind or

12 perhaps he as an individual didn't skip my mind but I couldn't remember

13 his name.

14 Q. But you nevertheless identify him in the sentence before you

15 describe Keli, "I was mostly beaten by Keli," or, "I was worst beaten by

16 Keli," so he should stick in your memory, shouldn't he?

17 A. I couldn't remember his name and then it just came back to me.

18 Q. I need to ask you this because I have just told you, you also

19 confirmed that this statement was -- had been read out to you, that you

20 had signed it and that it was accurate?

21 A. This is gospel truth.

22 Q. For the first time in your statement to the investigators of the

23 OTP, or more accurately the first statement was given in 1994, the

24 investigators' notes, 1999, and this is the statement of the 23rd of

25 August, 2000, so it is -- this is the first time, in the year 2000, in

1 eight years after Keraterm, you mentioned for the first time that there

2 was a guard called Keli in Kajin's shift. Can you explain how is it that

3 you never mentioned him before? And is it correct to say that you are not

4 really sure which Keli [as interpreted] he was on?

5 A. Keli worked in Kajin's shift.

6 Q. Then how do you explain that after 8 years, you put Keli on

7 Kajin's shift for the first time notwithstanding a number of statements

8 that you had made. And you told us that you had read each one of those

9 statements before, and signed them, confirming their accuracy?

10 A. Well, I don't know how to explain it really. Well, let's see. I

11 first said that I just couldn't really remember him, and you have him in

12 this earlier statement so you see it is noted down. You just read it out

13 a moment ago.

14 Q. But can you then explain it to me how is it that eight years later

15 you suddenly remembered him?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, the Chamber will deal with alleged

17 contradictions and inconsistencies. Once you put what you consider to be

18 a contradiction or inconsistency to the witness and he gives his

19 explanation, there is really no need for you to take it further. It is

20 then for the Chamber to assess the explanation that has been given. I

21 mean that is the classical rule of a judicial body. You identify the

22 inconsistency, the witness gives his explanation, then it is for us to

23 assess the explanation and to say whether we accept it as true or not.

24 There is no need to drag the matter on ad infinitum. Now let's

25 move on.

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours.

2 Q. Likewise, during the examination-in-chief yesterday, you said that

3 during your stay in Keraterm, you had been beaten twice; is that correct?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. You also, on the same occasion yesterday, said that the first time

6 you had been beaten by a military policeman, and my question is: Could

7 you be more specific in terms of time, when did it happen?

8 A. Well, it happened after only a few days between the two events.

9 Q. No, no, no. My question is when did this first military policeman

10 beat you? You told us you had been beaten twice. The first time it had

11 been a military policeman.

12 A. Well, I don't really know. This time -- we didn't really think

13 much about time so 10 days, give or take 10 days, I mean. I really don't

14 know. I can't be very precise.

15 Q. Yes, I agree. But can you be -- can you give us approximately

16 when that was?

17 A. Well, this was in mid-July, thereabouts, give or take a day or

18 two.

19 Q. And when Keli beat you, which was the second beating, according to

20 you, how long did it happen after the first beating, after the first

21 beating?

22 A. Several days. Well, it could have been five days later,

23 thereabouts. I'm not really sure.

24 Q. Now, I should like to go back to the -- to what you said yesterday

25 about that military policeman who had beaten you. You said that he was a

1 tall man of strong build, from Sarajevo, that is Sarajevo Novo,

2 municipality of Centar, that his father's name was Ilija. You also saw

3 his identity card because he had shown you; is that right?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. You also testified that it happened during Fustar's shift; is that

6 accurate?

7 A. Yes, that is accurate too.

8 Q. Then you also said that on various occasions, Fustar told this

9 policeman not to beat you on the head?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And did this policeman obey?

12 A. Well, not really. He hit me on the head and by my head and

13 wherever.

14 Q. Could you please, I know these are not happy memories for you, but

15 could you be more precise and tell us where did he strike you? For how

16 long? How many times in front of Fustar?

17 A. Well, it went on for about 15 or 20 minutes, but it wasn't nonstop

18 beating. He would put his demands to me and then beat me again. And so

19 it -- he hit me around area and on the shoulders as he stood in front of

20 me. He would just wave his baton and hit me wherever it hit me, and that

21 was the police baton that he used.

22 Q. But could you roughly tell us how many times that he hit you on

23 the head?

24 A. On the head, well, 7 or 8 times.

25 Q. I should now like to put it to you that in your statement to the

1 OTP investigators, that you said that you had been beaten twice. However,

2 here, in this statement, in this statement, you indicated that you were

3 beaten -- that the first time you were, "... beaten by a policeman from

4 Prijedor, and I don't know his name. And the second time, I was beaten by

5 a man called Keli."

6 Now, isn't it true these two statements are at discrepancy?

7 A. Yes, but I've never said that. I'm sure of it.

8 Q. Then how do you explain that? And you say that you never said

9 anything like that when you also claim that the statement was read out to

10 you or that you had read it and signed it as accurate, as we have already

11 noted?

12 A. I do not know if you are aware that these interviews take a long

13 time. They last very long, and one gets tired. And at long last when the

14 statement is read out to him, you don't hear half of it.

15 But I agree that it should -- that everything should be as it

16 should be. And I always stated that he was from Sarajevo, that he was a

17 big man. He showed me his ID.

18 Q. Is it right that in comparison with your first statement, with

19 your yesterday's testimony, in your first statement to investigators, you

20 did not mention that Keli was on Kajin's shift?

21 A. We've settled that.

22 JUDGE MAY: We've been through this, you know, about which shift

23 Keli was on. We really have heard a great deal of evidence about it.

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, just a

25 moment.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Q. Could you tell us more specifically something about the time when,

2 according to you, Jovo, the Serb that you mentioned, was beaten?

3 A. I couldn't really say with any accuracy. I could not do that.

4 Perhaps other people know the exact dates and all that, but I, no.

5 Q. Could you give us an approximation?

6 A. I mean it happened. It happened in July, sometime mid-July

7 towards the middle of July, well, possibly, perhaps.

8 Q. Very well. In your statement to the Bosnian authorities in 1994,

9 you state that, "He was beaten by brothers Banovic, Nenad and Predrag, by

10 Kondic, Cica, and Baltic." And in the investigator's notes of the 9th of

11 June 1999, you say, "Cupo Banovic, Keli and Goran Lajic beat a Serb called

12 Jovo." And you also said that you, in particular, recognised Lajic's

13 voice. And after that -- so these are two. And then yesterday, in the

14 courtroom, you indicated only Banovics and Goran Lajic as the individuals

15 who did that beating.

16 A. Well, I do not know why I really have to be so precise about every

17 name, and whether I can remember all the names. I suppose it is not

18 possible to remember all the names, but I'm quite sure that is how it was.

19 Q. But wouldn't you agree that all these statements are different?

20 A. Well, yes, there are some slight discrepancies, but they come down

21 to the same, and what I said is gospel truth. It was Banovic who used a

22 baseball bat to beat him, and so many bones were broken. Everybody knows

23 that. Well, it doesn't really matter who was on whose shift, they were

24 moving around.

25 Q. I wasn't speaking about shifts. I simply said that in various

1 periods of time, you identify different people. On three different

2 occasions you gave different names of people who had done this. Would you

3 agree that these three statements are different?

4 A. The statements are not different. I do not agree with that.

5 There are some slight differences.

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in view of the time, I

7 apologise.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much longer do you have, Mr. Rodic?

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Well, I suppose up to half an hour, up

10 to half an hour.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Hopefully you will be able to, perhaps,

12 conclude it in a little shorter time. We'll take the break now and resume

13 at 11.30.

14 Witness B, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody

15 including the members of the Prosecution team.

16 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Rodic?

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I appreciate

20 your suggestion and I will cut short my remaining questioning. It will

21 last less than half an hour.

22 Q. Witness B, when I asked you about your first beating by the

23 policeman from Sarajevo and you described how this happened, you said that

24 he received blows in -- to your body and you received seven or eight hits

25 on your head with a police baton?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In your statement to the Bosnian authorities of 6 November, 1994,

3 this is what you stated: You describe how the military policeman from

4 Sarajevo arrived, you give the same information, "and ask me to find him

5 two extremists. Because I did not point at anyone, he beat me by hitting

6 me about 50 times with his baton over the head." Is it correct that there

7 are discrepancies between the two?

8 A. Yes, there are discrepancies. This second one is more accurate.

9 I don't know how it happened.

10 Q. But you said that this was an accurate statement and you signed it

11 as such; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Let me ask further, concerning the taking out and beating of a man

14 whom you described as an ethnic Serb called Jovo, whom you did not know,

15 and my question to you is as follows. In the statement of 6 November,

16 1994, given to the Bosnian authorities, you stated very precisely this:

17 "Sometime around 25 June" -- sorry. "In Keraterm camp, Jovo Radocaj was

18 killed. He was an ethnic Serb from Laskarci. He was married to a Croat

19 woman, a man who voted for a sovereign and independent Republic of Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina." Do you agree with me that this is what you stated?

21 A. Yes, yes. This is what I was told, that this was so. It is true

22 that I did not know him, but I stated what I had heard.

23 Q. Let me now point to you the first interview you gave to the

24 Tribunal investigators, the OTP investigators, of 19 January, 1995. That

25 means about two months after you'd given the first statement. And this is

1 what you say: "That same night, a man was brought to the camp, who was

2 also killed. This was an ethnic Serb called Jovo, whose last name I do

3 not know. He was married to a Muslim woman and lived near Hambarine. At

4 the elections before the war, Jovo did not vote SDS but rather gave his

5 vote to the SDA, and this is why he was killed."

6 Do you agree with me that this statement differs from the

7 statement, the previous statement?

8 A. Yes, what is stated there is different from the statement that I

9 gave to the Bosnian authorities, but the Bosnian authorities knew from

10 other statements that this was so and this is what they wrote down.

11 Q. Can we agree, though, that you signed both these statements and

12 stated that you had read these statements and that you had signed them as

13 your own?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. My next question to you, and I'll take you back to the event of

16 the 24, 25th of July, and the shooting that occurred. Could you

17 approximately put the time frame to that, those shootings? From what time

18 to what time did these shootings last?

19 A. This was very late. There were three intervals. It ended maybe

20 two hours later in time, maybe two, two and a half hours, maybe even three

21 hours, these three intervals. I don't know. To us it seemed so long. To

22 us it seemed like 100 years, not two or three hours.

23 Q. Would you say that it -- that the shooting stopped before the

24 dawn?

25 A. Oh, yes, before the dawn.

1 Q. And you're certain about that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you tell me, the morning after the shooting and after the

4 massacre in Room 3, when men came out of the rooms to collect the bodies,

5 can you tell me whether there was any shooting at that time?

6 A. I think there was no shooting. No, there was no shooting.

7 Q. So did you hear any shooting at that time?

8 A. No, perhaps somebody did shoot, but I did not register it in any

9 way.

10 Q. That morning you came out of the room?

11 A. I was at the door of the room when Kajin came and opened it.

12 Q. Was this in front of the door outside?

13 A. Our door was a little bit set in. There was like a little entry

14 way, hallway, and then -- about a metre long, and then the door was at

15 that depth.

16 Q. Let me ask you just one additional question. In your statements

17 you described in detail Zoran Zigic, and you said that among other things,

18 you knew that before the war, he had killed a man in Prijedor and that

19 also he had killed a woman. Do you know who this woman was?

20 A. No. That happened during the war.

21 Q. Do you know that was Kajin's cousin, his uncle's daughter?

22 A. No.

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness B. Your Honours, I

24 have no further questions of this witness.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

1 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, if it may assist the court with respect

2 to the previous statements that this witness has provided to either the

3 Tribunal or to the Bosnian authorities, we have copies of those statements

4 available, if those would be of assistance to the Tribunal in assessing

5 the alleged inconsistencies that my learned colleague has just pointed out

6 to the court. If those would be of assistance, we are happy to provide

7 those and ask that they be marked as exhibits.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we think that would be helpful, yes.

9 MR. MUNDIS: We have copies for all the parties. It has been

10 previously disclosed to the Defence. We do have copies here, including a

11 complete set for the Bench. We would ask, however, that they be under

12 seal for the simple reason that there is information contained in the

13 statements that would tend to identify the witness.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes. They will be under seal.

15 Mr. Vucicevic, yes.

16 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour, thank you. With your

17 permission, if I may stay here because I spread my notes and statements

18 here.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

20 MR. VUCICEVIC: And also with your permission, if I may conduct

21 the examination both at times in B/C/S and at times in English, and you

22 will note at the times why those switches might be preferred.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

24 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Vucicevic:

1 Q. [Interpretation] Witness B, good morning. Yesterday, you

2 identified Dragan Kolundzija, Kole, and you said that you had known him

3 for a number of years. Do you know that he played on a team, soccer team

4 from Cirkin Polje?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you said that you, too, were a sportsman?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you play for a team?

9 A. Yes, I played for the team from Puharska.

10 Q. Were there any matches between the local teams between Puharska

11 and Cirkin Polje?

12 A. Yes, and there were also friendlies.

13 Q. Is it true that the team from Cirkin Polje did not have their own

14 field, their own stadium, but rather played their matches in Puharska and

15 used as their home field?

16 A. Yes, they used as their home field.

17 Q. Would you agree with me that Kole was not the best player on his

18 team?

19 A. Well, I don't know. Perhaps Petrovic was. He also played for us

20 for a while.

21 Q. But you will agree with me that Kole was the captain of his team?

22 A. I'm not sure myself who was the captain at what time.

23 Q. Do you know that a Muslim, whose last name was Sulejmanovic,

24 [redacted], played on Kole's team against your team and other

25 teams in the territory of Prijedor?

1 A. Sulejmanovic, I'm not sure that I can remember that name.

2 Q. Do you remember that there was a Muslim that was on Kole's team at

3 any time?

4 A. It is possible.

5 Q. So you say there was such a possibility?

6 A. Of course, yes.

7 Q. If he was from Puharska, and was not on the Puharska team, does

8 that mean that his qualities as a player were below the level of your

9 team?

10 A. No, that wouldn't mean that at all.

11 Q. Is it possible, and, in fact, probable that Kole, as the captain

12 of his team, helped a Muslim to play on his team?

13 A. I don't know that.

14 Q. My questions -- this line of questioning is through the assistance

15 of Kole. He asked me to ask you these things.

16 A. Very well.

17 Q. My friend, Rodic, reminded you of the statement you gave on 19

18 January 1995 to the investigators of this Tribunal, and the investigator

19 was Mr. Stephen Upton. The last page, you said this, I quote: [In

20 English], "Kole worked for a few days after the shooting but lost his job

21 because he beat," and first you said "guard", but later on you corrected

22 it in your August statement of 2000, so correction stands, "... but he

23 lost his job because he beat a Serb who was trying to beat a prisoner."

24 Is that true?

25 A. Yes, so far as I know this is what happened.

1 Q. [Interpretation] Did you see that incident?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. Did you know at what time, approximately, what month, what week

4 this happened?

5 A. This happened after the incident, after the massacre, that is.

6 Q. What did you hear about this incident, and from whom did you hear

7 it, and when did you hear it?

8 A. I heard it in -- during those days and I was told that a Serb had

9 tried to come in and beat Muslims, and Kole did not allow him and then

10 finally hit him.

11 Q. How did he hit him? Did he kick him? Did he punch him?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Did he resist? Did he hit back at Kole?

14 A. I don't know. I only know that Kole did it. This is what I

15 heard.

16 Q. Thank you. Again, in the same statement which I gave to Mr. Upton

17 in 1995, you said as follows, [In English] "When Kole was in charge, he

18 would let the families give food to the prisoners but he was the only one

19 that allowed that to happen."

20 Yesterday you also testified that it also happened on Kajin's

21 shift. Yesterday you also testified that after some time, after a short

22 period of time in the beginning, there were blankets that were allowed.

23 There were blankets that were allowed to be brought in to the prisoners by

24 their families. Did you make all of these statements?

25 A. Yes, I did.

1 Q. Do you remember today that Kole's shift was one, among others,

2 that were allowing blankets to be brought in?

3 A. Kole's shift when -- once it was established, we already had

4 blankets. But new inmates were coming in and Kole did allow for them to

5 also be provided with blankets. After the interrogation was finished on

6 the upper floor, he allowed phone calls to be made so that we would be

7 brought -- we could have food brought to us. And in this way, the word

8 spread around about what was going on.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Now that you mentioned Kole's goodwill and his

10 willingness to enable you to make phone calls, in one of the statements

11 given to the OTP you said that after the massacre Kole allowed you to call

12 home, to you, personally; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. On that day when you were allowed it, all the families in town,

15 naturally, were worried about what was going on with their own. Did he

16 allow this to you or to others?

17 A. No. He gave permission to me and to a young man called Pearson,

18 this is what we called him. I called home and I said that everything was

19 all right. I want to thank him for this. He also gave permission to some

20 other people, people whom he knew well and with whom he was on good

21 terms.

22 Q. There is a small detail which is that after this incident, Kole

23 did not come to the shift for several days; is that correct?

24 A. That is correct. Kole, after that, was no longer the shift

25 commander.

1 Q. Does that mean since you gave evidence that on the morning of the

2 25th the door did not open until late in the morning, does that mean that

3 Kole had already left?

4 A. Something like that.

5 Q. Could you recall now when did you make a phone call to your own to

6 tell them about where you were? Was it on the first day or after several

7 days?

8 A. No, not on the first day. After several days. The first day we

9 didn't go anywhere.

10 Q. Could it have been on the second day?

11 A. Second or third.

12 Q. Fourth even?

13 A. Fourth.

14 Q. But you are sure that Kole -- it was on Kole's shift?

15 A. Well, it was Kole himself who let me go and do it.

16 Q. So that means that in these -- in such circumstances, sometimes it

17 was very difficult to perceive or memorise when something -- remember when

18 something happened?

19 A. It may seem that it was right after something happened, but it

20 could have been several days later; is that correct?

21 A. Well, yes.

22 Q. In your statement given to the Ministry of the Interior, the MUP,

23 here it says that it was taken in Travnik in November, 1994. However, in

24 one of the statements which you signed, in August, 2000, it says it was

25 1993. Can you tell us when it was?

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 A. 1992.

2 Q. Oh, 1992, that was when you gave your first statement? When was

3 it? Because here it says it was given in 1994. In the other one it says

4 it was in 1993.

5 A. August, 1993, would -- could not be possible. Believe me, I'm not

6 sure when I gave it, but in 1993, that is entirely possible. It is

7 possible that it was in 1993.

8 Q. On that occasion you said, among other things, as follows,

9 describing a scene that was going -- that took place on the afternoon of

10 the 24th of July. It's the last paragraph. I will read it out to you.

11 However, I have the English version. [In English] For the benefit of the

12 easier presentation to the court, I would read in English. "The reserve

13 policeman from Prijedor, Grujic, also known as Grujo, walked behind him

14 holding an automatic rifle. On my way back from the kitchen, carrying

15 bread, I saw camp inmates standing in three circles with 10 to 12 people

16 each on the meadow in front of the hall." [Interpretation] I would like

17 to point out to you, to draw your attention to the word you used in this

18 statement, which is "kitchen." Can you describe to -- for the Trial

19 Chamber where this room was, and when you went to fetch bread, was that

20 the regular time of when you were receiving food or was it something out

21 of the ordinary?

22 A. This kitchen, we did not use the kitchen, even though that was the

23 entrance to the kitchen. That was the door to Room number 2 before the

24 toilet. Under the staircase we had a table and this is where we prepared

25 lunch. This lunch was not served at the same time but it was rather

1 dependent on when it would be delivered, and so then we would go about

2 distributing it.

3 Q. However, on that occasion, this was a year or 18 months later,

4 after the -- after the fact, your recollection of it was fresher than now,

5 or maybe not. Was this during the regular lunch-hour or did you go to get

6 this bread a little bit later?

7 A. This was quite a bit later. I think that this would be past the

8 regular dinner time.

9 Q. Would you have been able to go after a regular meal was served, go

10 there and see if there was any additional food or did you need special

11 permission?

12 A. On that day we were not given regular lunch but we saw that there

13 were some preparations, and Fustar's shift was before that, and during

14 their shift we were kept under lock. Then this man Jakupovic and I went

15 and we brought this bread in a plastic container, and distributed among

16 men in Room number 4 where I was.

17 Q. Would you describe for the Trial Chamber the size of that

18 container, basket? How big was it?

19 A. Well it was plastic, it was this size, about.

20 Q. So let's say 50, 60 centimetres in length?

21 A. Let's say 80 centimetres in length, and the breadth would be 40 to

22 50.

23 Q. And how deep?

24 A. Thirty or something.

25 Q. Was this sliced bread, cut bread, if you remember?

1 A. Yes, it was sliced.

2 Q. So that was bread which had been brought that day but you, in that

3 room, had not received any?

4 A. Bread was delivered every day. We would slice it there. There

5 were always two female cooks and we assisted them in slicing this bread so

6 that it would be done as soon as possible. On that day they did the

7 slicing themselves and waited for the lunch to be distributed. It was

8 never distributed that day. I don't know what happened to the other rooms

9 but we only got the bread, and somebody said, "Go get the bread, they will

10 give us bread." And we did, even though it was a bit dangerous.

11 Q. I don't want to offend you in any way but there were some other

12 soldiers on the perimeter. You said that that was -- this was happening

13 during the worst shift. If you recall, did you go on your own initiative

14 or did you ask for permission?

15 A. I did not need to ask for permission. The shift had changed over,

16 so this was Kole's shift.

17 Q. So it was Kole's shift already?

18 A. Yes, the shift had taken place. Kole's shift was on duty. Grujo

19 was there.

20 Q. But there were two Grujo's.

21 A. Yes. There was a tiny Grujo in blue police uniform.

22 Q. But this Grujo could also be sometimes in another shift?

23 A. No, I wouldn't think so. He was there from the beginning in the

24 camp, and he initially was in another shift before the three shifts were

25 organised.

1 Q. Let me just -- a moment ago we established with regard to time

2 perception, it is very difficult to say something positive after all that

3 time. Yesterday you said that those men were beaten during Fustar's

4 shift. Let me finish. Then you said today, while I examined you, that

5 the door was locked at times during Fustar's shift. Do you remember now,

6 that afternoon, was your door closed during Fustar's shift?

7 A. Yes, but it wasn't locked. We did not come out, but they always

8 made us go in just when it occurs to them, just get in, [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]. The doors were never locked in daytime. And I already

12 said that beating began during Fustar's shift and it was cut short and

13 there were some new blokes. I'd never seen them before. A number of them

14 wore red berets and I didn't really -- I wasn't really allowed to look

15 at them. I simply passed by them very quickly going to fetch bread and I

16 never had cause to look at them again.

17 Q. However, in all your statements so far - and there were five of

18 them - and during your testimony yesterday, you invariably said that no

19 beatings occurred during Kole's shifts. Is that correct?

20 A. Absolutely.

21 Q. And that then includes the 24th? There was no beating that day?

22 A. No, Kole's lads did not beat anyone but those others beat those

23 men. Now, how was it, why, I --

24 Q. You, in your statement given in August -- and I shall read it out

25 to you -- I shall read out to you what you said and I shall read it out to

1 you in Bosnian. This is it,"I know that Kole's shift was on duty in the

2 night when prisoners in front of Room 3 were massacred.

3 Earlier that evening I had gone out to get bread, and it was then

4 that I talked to Kole. It was a conversation about general matters. We

5 realised that something was afoot at the entrance. There were soldiers;

6 they were not just ordinary guards. It was evident that something was in

7 the offing. I asked Kole to lock us up in our room."

8 Did you say that?

9 A. I did say that, and that is how it was. We were locked up.

10 Q. And whenever he came to take over the shift, Kole would, that is

11 what you told us, unlock and locked the door again?

12 A. The door was locked at 9.00. It wasn't always Kole himself who

13 did it. It did not really matter. The doors were locked and the keys

14 taken away.

15 Q. However, and this is also with a view to identifying the periods

16 of time when one could see something, perceive something. This is a very

17 important detail, don't you think so?

18 A. Well, it could be. It should be, yes. It ought to be very

19 important.

20 Q. However, on the 8th of November, 1993 as you told us yourself, and

21 how -- although it says 1994 here, and these -- this statement was given

22 to an authorised official attached to the Ministry of the Interior of the

23 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina whose name was Zijad Ibric. And you signed

24 that statement, you read it. This is an important detail. You never

25 mentioned it in a single word, never.

1 Then you gave a statement on the 5th of November 1994 and, again,

2 a statement given to Mr. Ibric with much more specifics. You even mention

3 a policeman from Sarajevo who showed you his ID card, and yet you do not

4 say anything about the so-called preparations.

5 Then you also made a statement on the 19th of January 1995 to

6 Mr. Stephen Upton, an investigator in the OTP here. And again, you say

7 nothing about that detail. Not a word.

8 Then you gave a statement on the 6th of September 1999 to Mr. Hans

9 Oelvebro in the presence of Mr. Kapila Waidyaratne, one of the

10 Prosecutors. And here you immediately start off with the gunfire opened

11 of Room 3, time and the rest, you do not mention any soldiers or any

12 preparations.

13 And earlier you said that your brother, your elder brother; what

14 is the difference, a year or two?

15 A. A little less than two.

16 Q. You said that he was with you all the time throughout, that is,

17 you were arrested together, and you were released together. And I guess

18 being brothers you also had adjacent pallets?

19 A. We did not have any pallets at that time.

20 Q. But you did have some blankets?

21 A. Yes, and styrofoam.

22 Q. And as your brother, he is a man of great integrity, isn't he?

23 And if he remembers something, he will say so, won't he?

24 A. I suppose so.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move on, Mr. Vucicevic.

1 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I will wrap it up, please.

2 Q. [Interpretation] And in the report of the 15th of August 2000,

3 made by your brother to the Prosecutor, this is what he says, [In English]

4 I apologise, but I do have an English version here. "I didn't see any of

5 the preparations made prior to the massacre of the men in Room 3."

6 [Interpretation] Now, if you saw something going on, wouldn't you

7 have said so to your brother, if nobody else?

8 A. He said that he had not seen.

9 Q. That was all I wanted to ask you. Could it be that the bench with

10 machine-guns that you mentioned yesterday, but never before that, that it

11 was the next day that you saw them rather than that evening? Could it

12 have been that way?

13 A. Yes. But they were there that evening too.

14 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr. Mundis?

16 MR. MUNDIS: No, Your Honour. The Prosecution has no further

17 questions.

18 I would just like to ask for clarification from the registry with

19 respect to the exhibit number for the witness statements that were

20 tendered a few moments ago.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Does the registrar have the numbers? Yes, please

22 give them.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The numbers will be -- the witness statements of

24 the date 23 August 2000 will be Exhibit 6. The witness statement of the

25 9th of June 1999 will be Exhibit 7. The witness statement given on the

1 19th of January 1995 will be Exhibit 8. The witness statement given on

2 the -- that's stated in the statement the 5th of November 1994 will be

3 numbered Exhibit 9. The witness statement given on the 8th of November

4 1994 will be Exhibit 10. This is number 02/273. The last one will be

5 also dated the 8th of November, 1994, number 02/272. This will be Exhibit

6 11.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Witness B, that concludes your

8 evidence. You are released except for this, the statement that was handed

9 to you and on which you will provide some information.

10 Mr. Mundis, would you provide the witness with the statement? I

11 think it's Exhibit 5 --

12 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- so he can make the notifications.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour. And just for clarification, once

15 he has returned that document to me, then he is free to leave.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 MR. GREAVES: My learned friend and I have discussed the list

19 together. I have two slight amendments to make to the requirement that I

20 was going to ask the witness to do.

21 Can my learned friend and I either speak outside or I can cross

22 across the Court, if it's not discourteous to you, and just inform him

23 what the requirement is. Would that be acceptable to Your Honours?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

25 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, very much.

1 [Prosecution and Defence counsel confer]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis, please take the statement over to the

3 witness.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, the matter that Mr. Greaves and I

5 discussed, that's what you want me to give him at this point?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. And he can go outside and mark it.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, could I approach my client for a

9 second?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, the next witness.

13 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour. Before I call the next

14 witness, Your Honour, I have a brief application to make.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

16 MS. BALY: Your Honour, this witness did not seek -- we have not

17 sought any protective measures for this witness so far. I wish to make an

18 oral application now for facial distortion and that a pseudonym be

19 granted.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: And the grounds?

21 MS. BALY: Your Honour, this witness has family who reside in the

22 Prijedor area. In particular, he has an elderly father and a brother. He

23 visits his elderly father quite often and, Your Honour, he has concerns

24 for his father and his brother, and also his own safety should his

25 identity be revealed.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any objections from the Defence?

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

3 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

4 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, I would be the happiest man today if

5 I could join my learned friends in their "no objection", but this

6 application would be -- really wouldn't make any sense whatsoever because

7 it is being placed at this time. [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 MS. BALY: Your Honour, I apologise for interrupting, but it may

14 be appropriate that we move into closed session if we are going to deal

15 with what I anticipate my friend is about to mention.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let us move into closed session.

17 [Private session]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 869 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 870 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 871 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Perhaps a time will come when these changes can

21 be done electronically. Let the witness make the declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 WITNESS: WITNESS C

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly?

2 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Examined by Ms. Baly:

4 Q. Witness, could you have a look, please, as this piece of paper

5 that I'm about to show you? You can see on that piece of paper your name?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you also see your date of birth?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Witness, I want you to understand that in these proceedings you're

10 going to be referred to as Witness C. Do you understand that?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 MS. BALY: I tender that document. Your Honour it will be Exhibit

13 12.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may proceed.

15 MS. BALY:

16 Q. Witness C, can I take you back, please, to the early months of

17 1992. At that time did you reside with your brother in a town called

18 Puharska?

19 A. Yes, except that is a section of the town of Prijedor.

20 Q. Without mentioning the name of your brother, did you live in the

21 same house as he?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did you have another brother who lived in Puharska in a

24 separate dwelling?

25 A. That is correct.

1 Q. And is the town of Puharska in the opstina Prijedor?

2 A. Yes. It is part of the Prijedor town.

3 Q. At that time, that is, in 1992, what was the population of Muslim

4 persons who resided in that town?

5 A. In Puharska, the Muslim population was about 10.000. And for the

6 town of Prijedor in whole, it was about 50.000.

7 Q. Are you, yourself, a Muslim?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can I take you back, then, to those early months in 1992. What

10 was happening to the Muslim persons in the area of Puharska?

11 A. On 30th of April, the Prijedor SDS, that night they took over the

12 power, in front of the municipal building Serbian flags were hoisted.

13 Checkpoints were established. They were set up on the approaches to the

14 town. And propaganda, if I can call it that, started. That was broadcast

15 on local media and local newspaper called Vjesnik.

16 Q. What was the nature of that propaganda?

17 A. This propaganda was pointing out that all the Muslims who did not

18 want to put on uniforms, JNA uniforms, could not go to work anymore. They

19 were being fired from their jobs. Their healthcare benefits, their social

20 benefits were taken away from them. Their presence in workplaces was no

21 longer desirable, and it was during that time that we started being fired

22 from our jobs.

23 Q. Without telling us what position you occupied, were you working at

24 that time?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And were you able to attend work?

2 A. No. As part of all this, Muslims were limited in where and how

3 they could move because we ran a risk of being checked at these

4 checkpoints, mistreated, harassed, and so on. And I want to underscore

5 this, we were forbidden to go to work.

6 Q. Witness C, you've mentioned checkpoints. Whereabouts were they?

7 A. They were set up on the -- on the perimeter of town, on the

8 approaches to the town.

9 Q. Witness C, were those checkpoints manned and, if so, by whom?

10 A. They were manned by JNA soldiers. In fact, these were the

11 Prijedor citizens of Serb ethnic background who were wearing JNA uniforms.

12 Q. Witness C, what would happen to persons of Muslim ethnicity when

13 they encountered a checkpoint?

14 A. We had to identify ourselves, so to speak. In other words, we had

15 to hand them identity cards so that they could see who we were. Then they

16 would ask us, well, why we were going to town, what was the reason for

17 it. And in April they would let us through and we could move about with

18 these controls.

19 Q. You mentioned not being able to attend your place of employment.

20 What was the consequence, insofar as medical care was concerned, of not

21 being able to attend work?

22 A. By the very fact that we did not go to work, we received no

23 salaries which also mean that we did not have the benefits that come with

24 that, pension, healthcare and so on.

25 Q. Witness C, can I take you now to the 30th of May in 1992, that is,

1 after the attack on Prijedor. Did something happen in the area of

2 Prijedor on that day?

3 A. From my house I heard from the direction of the Prijedor old town

4 great noise and something like shattering. And when we climbed upstairs,

5 we saw that that part of the old town was on fire. It was in flames.

6 Q. When you refer to "that part of the old town", what town are you

7 referring to?

8 A. Prijedor. That part of town we called "old town".

9 Q. On that day did something happen to the Muslim and Croatian people

10 residing in the town and, if so, what happened?

11 A. I later learned that Muslims from that part of town were

12 evacuated, and I had an aunt who lived there. Muslims from that part of

13 town and from a part of town around new hotel, they were all evacuated.

14 They were placed in buses and taken to Trnopolje.

15 Q. Witness C, what was Trnopolje?

16 A. Trnopolje was a camp.

17 MS. BALY: Your Honours, at this point I would ask that the Court

18 move into closed session.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

20 [Private session]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 877 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [Open session]

19 MS. BALY:

20 Q. Witness C, I want to take you now to the 31st of May, 1992. Did

21 something happen to one of your brothers - and please don't mention his

22 name - on that day?

23 A. Yes. My brother was taken away, alongside the other citizens of

24 Puharska and they were taken to Keraterm.

25 Q. Was that the brother with whom you lived or was it the brother who

1 lived in a separate house?

2 A. Yes, the one who lived in a separate house.

3 Q. Did you see him being taken away?

4 A. Yes. From my house, from the window, I saw him being taken away,

5 and how they took his car from the garage.

6 Q. Who took him away?

7 A. JNA soldiers.

8 Q. And you've learned that he was subsequently taken to the Keraterm

9 camp; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I take you now to the 12th of June, 1992. Were you at your home

12 with your other brother on that day?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And did something happen to you and your other brother on that

15 day?

16 A. Sometime around 3.00, we had lunch, and I went to my part of the

17 house. About 15 minutes later I heard banging on the door, and this older

18 brother called me, yelled at me to open it up. I opened the door, and I

19 saw about 10, 12 soldiers with their rifles trained at me. I was

20 confused. I only recognised a neighbour of mine, who was a reserve

21 policeman. He pointed a rifle at me, and I said, "What is this? What is

22 this all about?" I can't mention the name of this neighbour. I was

23 confused as to what was the reason for this.

24 Q. What ethnicity was this neighbour?

25 A. I think he was a Serb.

1 Q. And were there any other persons with him?

2 A. Yes. There were about 12 soldiers with him. They told me to come

3 out. Some soldiers went in to search the house, and the others were

4 surrounding the house, and when the two of us came out, the whole group of

5 12 soldiers gathered together. One went to search the house and -- one

6 part went, and the other part, among whom was my neighbour, ordered us to

7 board a van.

8 Q. From which army were those soldiers?

9 A. They were wearing JNA camouflage uniforms, but there were some in

10 police uniforms, because my neighbour was a retired policeman, so he went

11 back on duty. He had a blue camouflage uniform. And perhaps a couple of

12 other of -- other soldiers had them too.

13 Q. You've referred to a van. Can you describe that van, please?

14 A. It was a van that had a driver and a passenger next to him. It

15 was -- that had only passenger seat next to it. It was sort of like a

16 freight van. This neighbour came in -- they told us to get in, and we

17 stepped in and we had to sit down on the floor because there were no

18 seats. I believe that the van was yellow.

19 Q. Were there any other persons in the van when you entered it?

20 [redacted].

21 When we boarded the van, a kombi -- the van went further into Puharska and

22 collected another man, I think that his name was Mesic and he was an

23 agronomist. I think he was beaten. My brother and I were not beaten.

24 This Mesic was beaten very severely. They beat him up badly and they

25 threw him in the van.

1 Q. Of what ethnicity was this person you've referred to as Mesic?

2 A. Mesic, he was a Muslim. All four of us who were in the van were

3 Muslims.

4 Q. And where were you taken?

5 A. We were taken to the MUP building, to the Prijedor municipality

6 MUP building. That's where they took us.

7 Q. And what happened when you arrived at the MUP building?

8 A. We were ordered to get out and to kneel down on the pavement, to

9 lean against a wall of the building, with three fingers spread out, and to

10 continue to kneel until we were told otherwise.

11 Q. For how long did you kneel in that position?

12 A. Perhaps half an hour or an hour. And meanwhile, this neighbour

13 and my brother were taken away, allegedly to be questioned. When my

14 brother came back they said that they were also beaten and abused.

15 Q. Were you yourself questioned?

16 A. No, I was not. I think a man came by who I think knew me and he

17 asked me whether this was me. I said yes, and then he said, "Stand up.

18 You don't need to kneel down." And I wasn't taken in for questioning.

19 Q. Were you beaten?

20 A. No, I was not.

21 Q. Witness C, you indicated you were required to kneel while resting

22 your body weight upon three fingers?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you place any significance to that particular procedure, that

25 is the three-fingered --

1 A. Yes. That was a special salute that Serbs used. The soldiers

2 used it. That is how they saluted each other.

3 Q. Witness C, what happened after you left the MUP building?

4 A. We were placed in a police van, blue van, and I sincerely thought

5 that we were being taken back home. We could not see where we were

6 heading, but I sort of knew the direction that we were going because of my

7 familiarity with the town. When we arrived at the cross -- at the

8 intersection of the Banja Luka road, I realised that we were not being

9 taken back home, that we were being taken somewhere in the direction of

10 Banja Luka, and it was then that they took us to Keraterm.

11 MS. BALY: Your Honours, I wonder if that would be a convenient

12 time?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it would be. We will take the adjournment

14 now, resume at 2.30.

15 Witness C, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody,

16 including members of the Prosecution team.

17 Mr. Ryneveld, perhaps when we return, before we begin the

18 evidence, you could provide that information which I requested, or are you

19 not yet in a position to?

20 MR. RYNEVELD: I will certainly be able to do that when we resume

21 at 2.30.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thank you.

23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

24

25

1 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.

2 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, whilst we're waiting for the witness

3 to return to Court, can I deal with the list that we asked to be marked by

4 the previous witness, Witness B?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

6 MR. GREAVES: Witness B has now carried out that exercise, I

7 think, in company with Mr. Mundis. There are three pages which we seek to

8 have exhibited to the evidence of that witness. He marked on one page

9 only, one name, and inscribed the bottom of the page in his own language.

10 I've given a copy of that document to one of the interpreters who

11 I think can translate what is written at the bottom of the form for us,

12 and it can then be read into the transcript if Your Honours are agreeable

13 to that procedure.

14 Perhaps my learned friend could confirm what I've said.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour. Again, just to clarify and make

16 sure that the record is clear, you will recall before the witness withdrew

17 that Mr. Greaves approached the Prosecution table with a slight revision

18 in his request, and that revision was that the witness only be shown three

19 pages of what was previously marked as Exhibit 6. And so rather than the

20 witness being shown the entire logs that he maintained, he was shown three

21 pages and on those three pages he did, in fact, mark one name which he

22 then inscribed a note at the bottom of the page in his language indicating

23 that that individual from his room had been killed during the time that he

24 was in Keraterm.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Is that what you want to be translated?

1 MR. GREAVES: No. There is -- three lines in the witness' own

2 language were inscribed at the bottom of one of the pages. One of the

3 interpreters has a copy of that document and perhaps he could just read

4 it.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, could those three lines be read

7 by one of the counsel?

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry, Mr. Vucicevic.

10 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Witness C, in his testimony so far, has used

11 the word "neighbour" about three times identifying --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you just let us conclude this point, and

13 then we'll come to the point which you are making. I think the

14 interpreter was about to translate something, and then we'll come back to

15 you.

16 MR. VUCICEVIC: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 MR. GREAVES: In fact what the interpreter has done has asked one

18 of the Serbian speaking counsel to read the phrase, and perhaps my friend,

19 Mr. Londrovic, would be so kind as to do that.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

21 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Witness B saw the

22 document which was shown to him in the presence of my learned friend,

23 Mr. Mundis. And he wrote in his own hand the following text: "The person

24 whose name I circled was killed in Keraterm while I was there (he died in

25 the room 7 days after the beating)". And then there is the signature of

1 Witness B and the full name of the person whose name he circled is Jasmin

2 Ibrahimi. There are three pages, and the last three figures are 496, 497,

3 and 498 are the numbers of the pages. The ordinal number of all the

4 prisoners who were detained in Keraterm are from 1 to 138.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Do you now wish to have those

6 tendered?

7 MR. GREAVES: My learned friend --

8 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll make it 5A.

11 MR. GREAVES: Perhaps we could mark the original which Mr. Mundis

12 has in his hands.

13 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, Witness C in his testimony so far

14 has mentioned several persons whom he had identified as "my neighbour." I

15 would respectfully submit that in presenting the foundation for this

16 witness' testimony, the Prosecutor introduce those names. It would be

17 extremely helpful for us to prepare our cross-examination, number 1, and

18 number 2, at a later stage, to perhaps seek the evidence -- information

19 that could lead to evidence for the Defence case in chief. Thank you.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, I don't think you can tell the

22 Prosecutor how to do her work. When you come to cross-examine, then you

23 can seek to get the name of the neighbour and we can then make a decision

24 on that issue. So that's the way we'll deal with it. Mr. Ryneveld? Or

25 Mr. Mundis?

1 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I was just inquiring -- prior to the

2 break you had requested once again an answer to the "common-purpose"

3 question.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, very quickly.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, it is the Prosecutor's position that the

6 common-purpose liability extends to all three of the accused with respect

7 to conditions in the camp. Obviously, with respect to the genocide

8 charges, only the accused Sikirica stands charged with those, but with

9 respect to the conditions in the camp itself, the Prosecutor's position is

10 that all three of the accused are liable under the common-purpose

11 doctrine.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, to the conditions, and of course to all the

13 beatings and the murders and --

14 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour, and as Your Honour will recall,

15 this matter was addressed in depth in pages 38 through 45 of the

16 Prosecutor's Pre-Trial brief that was filed on 13 October, 2000.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thank you very much.

18 Ms. Baly?

19 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Witness C, before the break, we had got to the stage in your

21 evidence when you had -- when you arrived at Keraterm camp, having been

22 arrested on the 12th of June, 1992. What time of the day did you arrive

23 at the camp?

24 A. Sometime around 4.00 in the afternoon.

25 Q. And the van that you were in entered the camp and went toward one

1 of the rooms in which you were subsequently detained; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, it is. The van entered the camp, stopped by the weigh hut.

3 There they handed over some papers and then the van took us to Room 2.

4 Q. Is it the case, Witness C, that there were four rooms at the camp

5 in which detainees were detained?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. And were those rooms commonly referred to as Rooms 1, 2, 3, and

8 4?

9 A. Quite right, quite right.

10 Q. For how long were you detained in total at Keraterm camp?

11 A. Fifty-five days.

12 Q. In which room were you first placed when you arrived at the camp?

13 A. Room number 2.

14 Q. Did you subsequently move to another room?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. For how long were you detained in Room 2?

17 A. In Room 2, I was for about five or six days in that room, and then

18 I realised that they were terribly beating and taking out prisoners from

19 that room. And in Room 1 there were detainees who had been interrogated,

20 and those from - I don't know how to put it - from the town itself, and

21 they were, if I may put it that way, were treated slightly better.

22 Q. As a consequence of discovering that fact, did you move rooms?

23 A. Yes. I then moved to dormitory 1. I managed to find about ten

24 centimetres of space on the pallet, and that is where I settled, together

25 with my brother.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Q. How was it that you were able to move rooms? Did you have to seek

2 permission?

3 A. Well, not really. I suppose they wouldn't have allowed me had I

4 asked for that, but from time to time, depending on the shift, one could

5 move around, that is go from one dormitory to another. It wasn't much of

6 a problem.

7 Q. In August of last year, that's in August of the year 2000, did you

8 make a statement to investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor for

9 the Tribunal?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. During the taking of the statement did you draw a

12 sketch?

13 A. Yes. I tried to draw a rough picture, drawing upon my memory of

14 what did that camp look like.

15 MS. BALY: I'm just about to show you a two-page document. And I

16 have, Your Honours, copies for Your Honours as well as my learned

17 friends.

18 With the assistance of the usher, might the witness be shown this

19 two-page document?

20 Q. Witness C, does that appear to be a copy of the sketch that you

21 drew? That is the first page that you're shown, and on the second page

22 you'll see a notation in which your name is redacted. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, yes, it is.

24 MS. BALY: Your Honours, the original of that sketch is available

25 in court if Your Honours wish to peruse it or indeed my learned colleagues

1 wish to.

2 Might the first page of the sketch be placed upon the ELMO?

3 Q. Witness C, can you look, please, at the document on the ELMO? And

4 you'll see there that you have marked a building as a reception. You used

5 the word "reception." Can you see that building?

6 A. This here.

7 Q. What was that room used for during your time at Keraterm camp?

8 A. That room was mostly used by the camp commander, Sikirica,

9 Mr. Sikirica, and shift leaders, that is Kole, Kajin, and Fustar. They

10 were there mostly, or when they needed to talk to guards, that is where

11 that took place, while I have to mention that whenever detainees arrived,

12 they had to go across this weigh bridge to get here.

13 Q. Witness C, you've also marked on that sketch two things you've

14 called "machine-gun emplacements." Do you see those two?

15 A. I do, yes, yes. Here in front of Rooms 3, 4, and the other one in

16 front of Rooms 1 and 2.

17 Q. When you arrived at Keraterm camp on June the 12th, were those

18 machine-guns in place?

19 A. Yes, yes, they were.

20 Q. You'll also see on the sketch two things that you have marked

21 "search lights."

22 A. Yes. They were not there when I arrived. Those search lights

23 were installed later on. I cannot remember when exactly, but it could

24 have been some 20 days after my arrival or so, but be that as it may, they

25 were put there at a later stage.

1 Q. Witness C, you've given some evidence that you were first detained

2 in Room 2. Can you focus now, please, on Room 2 and describe that room to

3 the Court?

4 A. Room 2 was larger than dormitory 1 or, rather, it was the largest

5 of all the dormitories and it was roughly, I've indicated here, about 20

6 or 25 by 20 metres. In the beginning it had a tin-plate door so that in

7 the evening, if you closed the door, you couldn't see anything outside.

8 When I arrived there, it wasn't filled to capacity. Perhaps it

9 was less than half full. There were pallets inside and that is where we

10 slept, on those pallets.

11 Q. Given a measurement as to the width of that room being 20 metres,

12 and I think you said it was also 20 metres deep; is that correct?

13 A. Well, thereabouts, 20, 25. Perhaps it wasn't square. Perhaps it

14 was longer than it was -- perhaps its length was bigger than its width.

15 Q. Witness C, how did that room compare to this room, that is, to

16 this courtroom in terms of its size?

17 A. Well, I'd say that it was of roughly the same length, but it was

18 likely wider. From glass panel -- from glass panel to glass panel, that

19 was the -- its length, perhaps slightly longer, but it was wider.

20 Q. How much wider?

21 A. Well, say about 5, maybe as much as 8 metres. I don't really

22 know.

23 Q. Okay. Can you turn your attention, please, to Room 1. You've

24 said that you were detained in that room and you, on your sketch, have

25 marked that it was 8 metres wide and some 20 metres deep; is that correct?

1 A. Yes. Yes, I should say so. I think so, yes.

2 Q. How did that room, in terms of its size, compare to this room,

3 that is this courtroom?

4 A. Well, say, it was not as long. Say from the beginning of this

5 desk to the glass panels, more or less. And it was much narrower. From

6 this partition behind me to the Judges' bench, roughly.

7 Q. And were you referring to the table in which the Prosecution

8 lawyers are standing -- are seated when you referred to the first bench?

9 A. No, no, no. I meant that table over there and roughly to those

10 window panels. Perhaps a little less. No, say from the beginning or --

11 the beginning or the end of this table to the glass panels. It was

12 shorter, anyway, by about a couple of metres than the Room 2, and it was

13 much narrower than Room 2.

14 Q. And the table to which you referred is the table upon which the

15 court reporters are sitting, the people typing at the back of the room?

16 A. Well, say behind there, behind their desk. Roughly from the

17 beginning of that table to the end of that table.

18 Q. Now --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, it occurs to us that at some stage

20 we'll have to have some information on the measurement of this room.

21 MS. BALY: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I imagine you have that in mind.

23 MS. BALY: Yes, Your Honour.

24 Q. Witness C, can you describe, apart from the size of that room, can

25 you describe Room 1, please?

1 A. Well, again, in the beginning it also had a metal door so when you

2 shut it, you couldn't see anything outside. But later on they put another

3 door with metal bars so that we could look through and we had more air.

4 It was easier to breathe in there.

5 Inside there were pallets lined up on the left, and one on the

6 right, and in the middle two lines, two rows of pallets the whole length

7 of the dormitory, and that is where the detainees slept.

8 Q. Did the detainees have any bed clothing apart from those pallets

9 upon which to sleep or upon which to cover themselves?

10 A. Well, we didn't. Those who were lucky found pieces of cardboard

11 to put on those pallets. And the -- those who were lucky ones to find

12 something like that to make those pallets slightly softer. And we had

13 nothing to cover with unless some of us had brought something along from

14 home.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is a pallet? What is it composed of?

16 MS. BALY:

17 Q. Do you understand the question? What exactly is a pallet?

18 A. Yes, yes, I'm about to. Since Keraterm was a tile factory before

19 the war and also refractory tiles were made there, the pallet it was more

20 or less 120 by 100. It was at about this height, and a forklift would

21 enter to put these tiles and then take them around various areas or plants

22 in the Keraterm factory.

23 On the top it had boards some 10 centimetres broad which were also

24 separated by some 10 centimetres and simply lined there. So that is where

25 we could lie down. As a matter of fact, when there were enough of them,

1 those who were lucky enough to find those pallets to lie on them. In the

2 beginning there was nothing, and at that time we had to lie on the

3 concrete floor.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

5 MS. BALY:

6 Q. What were those pallets made of?

7 A. Wooden boards.

8 Q. Witness C, can you focus again, please, on the sketch on the

9 ELMO. And you will see, Witness C, to the left of Room 1 you've drawn and

10 arrow and what appear to be stairs. Can you see that? To where did those

11 stairs lead?

12 A. Yes. These stairs led to the offices which were on the upper

13 floor, and that is where the interrogators who questioned us were.

14 Q. Witness C, you've also drawn on your sketch some WC notations

15 which I take it they refer to the toilets; is that correct?

16 A. That's right, yes.

17 Q. How many toilets were there?

18 A. Well, I think there were four, three or maybe four. I'm not

19 sure. But that I can -- I think that was their number, three or four, and

20 then were the squatting ones, three or four.

21 Q. Did the detainees have free access to those toilets?

22 A. No. Well, it depended on the shift.

23 Q. What did the detainees use to relieve themselves when they didn't

24 have access to the toilets?

25 A. Room 2 had a barrel in a corner, and the inmates relieved

1 themselves in it when the shift leaders -- or rather the guards locked the

2 door at twilight. And dormitory 1 did not even have that, so we had to

3 relieve ourselves in bags. And then we discarded those bags next to a

4 door to try to prevent the smell from pervading the room.

5 MS. BALY: I tender that sketch, which, if it's admitted, will

6 become, I think, Exhibit 13.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

8 MS. BALY:

9 Q. Witness C, I want to take you back now to your arrival at the

10 camp. Before you were detained in Room 2, were you searched?

11 A. Yes. When we arrived - and I think it was Kole's shift - Kole

12 searched us. Later on I was told that we were lucky because usually the

13 majority of inmates was beaten during that search. We raised our hands.

14 Whatever we had in our pockets we placed next to us on the ground. He

15 searched us, and I was given my identity card back. And then we went to

16 Room 2. He told us to go to that dormitory number 2.

17 Q. Was the person you've described as Kole, Dragan Kolundzija?

18 A. Yes, yes, I recognise him. I just recognised him now. In fact, I

19 recognise them all.

20 Q. Well, just -- can you just listen to the questions that I ask you

21 and don't do anything that you're not asked to do, all right? Did you

22 know Kole prior to your detention in Keraterm camp?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How often did you see this person Kole in the camp while you were

25 there?

1 A. I would mostly see him when he was on duty, which means fairly

2 frequently.

3 Q. Can you describe him to the court, please, as he was in 1992 when

4 you were in the camp?

5 A. I'll try. For instance, he was probably a little taller than I

6 was, well-built. He was good-looking. He kept his hair short, brown,

7 maybe a bit darker. He was wearing the so-called SMB colour uniform. And

8 gentle features, I'd say. That's about -- a good-looking face. I don't

9 know how else to put it.

10 Q. How tall are you, Witness C?

11 A. 185, 185 centimetres.

12 Q. Are you able to say how old he was at that time? Just estimate.

13 A. I don't know how -- what his age would have been, but I think that

14 he was younger than I was, maybe about 25.

15 Q. You've referred to him as being a shift leader. I'm going to ask

16 you some questions about --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- the personnel in the camp who were guarding you. Firstly, were

19 you able to observe any particular pattern or organisation in so far as

20 those guards were concerned?

21 A. Yes. There was a camp commander, Dusko Sikirica, that is. Before

22 him, there was -- Sikirica came later, maybe 15 days into the existence of

23 camp. And before him there was a retired policeman; I think his name was

24 Zivko Knezevic. Short, stocky, I remember him well. And then later on

25 Sikirica came. And there were three shifts. Shift leaders were Fustar,

1 Kole, and Kajin. And then after that there was another one, Tomo. I

2 don't know whether he came later on or what. So there were three shifts,

3 three shift leaders, who had somewhere between 10 and 12, depending,

4 guards, soldiers, who were subordinated to them.

5 Q. Witness C, what observations did you make that drew you to

6 conclude that the -- those shift leaders were the superiors of those

7 guards who you say were subordinated to them?

8 A. That was very simple. The keys to these dormitories were with the

9 shift leaders, and they would lock and unlock them. And they were the

10 ones who ordered the other guards what each one of them was to do. In

11 other words, they were giving them assignments.

12 Q. When you say they were giving them assignments, or as you said,

13 orders, what exactly -- what kinds of orders?

14 A. I don't -- I couldn't tell exactly what types of orders exactly,

15 but the changes of shift were taking place in this area which I call the

16 reception area, this hut. And then when there were some tasks to be

17 carried out, for instance, when somebody was to be taken out, then they

18 would issue them orders, and anyone could conclude that on the basis of

19 their mutual relationship. For instance, when the food arrived and the

20 inmates would be lined up, or when there was any other activity in the

21 camp, these three men would issue orders and they would issue them to the

22 guards.

23 Q. And did the guards appear to obey these orders?

24 A. Yes, all the time.

25 Q. Did you see it working the other way as well; that is, did you see

1 any of the guards reporting to the shift leaders?

2 A. Yes. That was a relationship of a subordinate and a superior.

3 Q. Now, so far you have described Kole to the court. What I'd like

4 you to do now is to look around this court and see whether you recognise

5 Kole. Do you?

6 A. I think that he is on the far right.

7 Q. When you say "the far right," what I'd like you to do is to

8 identify him in terms of the seat in which he is seated, counting from

9 left to right. What seat is he in?

10 A. Seat number 5 at the far right.

11 Q. And is that in the far row?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. You've said there were three shifts. Did those shifts correspond

14 to any particular hours during the day and/or night?

15 A. Yes. I think that at first I was a bit unclear about these

16 shifts. I thought that they would be leaving at 6:00, but in fact they

17 would leave at 3.00. However, later on, this functioned better. I think

18 that they had longer shifts. I think that there were three, 12-hour

19 shifts. I think that that is how they worked, and this is how they

20 rotated.

21 Q. You've referred to Kole as being the leader of one of the shifts.

22 Who were the leaders of the other shifts?

23 A. After Kole's shift, I think it was Kajin's shift, and after

24 Kajin's shift, Fustar's shift.

25 Q. Is the person Kajin also known to you as Damir Dosen?

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 A. Yes. His nickname was Kajin.

2 Q. Did you know that person before you were detained at Keraterm

3 camp?

4 A. Very slightly. I may have seen him in town, but just in passing.

5 Q. Can you describe him to the court, please?

6 A. I think that Kajin was a little bit taller than Kole, more

7 masculine features, perhaps more pronounced, and tall and slender, of

8 athletic build, brown hair.

9 Q. Looking around the courtroom today, are you able to see that

10 person?

11 A. Yes. Yes, I can.

12 Q. Again, in terms of the seat and the row he's in, can you identify,

13 counting the seats from left to right, can you identify what seat he's in?

14 A. Far row, seat number three.

15 MS. BALY: I would ask, Your Honours, that the record reflect that

16 the witness has identified the accused Dragan Kolundzija and the accused

17 Damir Dosen.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

19 MS. BALY:

20 Q. Now, you also, in your evidence earlier, referred to a person you

21 called Sikirica; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. Did you know that person prior to your detention at Keraterm camp?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What was that person's position within the camp?

1 A. He was camp commander, that is, he was the number-one person in

2 the camp, and shift leaders showed him respect and treated him as a camp

3 commander. And guards had a little -- showed a little bit of awe towards

4 him. So they really had a lot of respect for him.

5 Q. What observations did you make that led you to conclude that the

6 guards had a lot of respect or awe for him?

7 A. On one occasion when I received some food, and I had gone over to

8 the gate as I indicated, and when the guards saw that camp commander was

9 arriving in the car, he said, "Get lost. Get lost. The commander is

10 coming in the car. We can't have you being seen here."

11 Q. You said that you didn't know that person prior to your detention

12 in Keraterm camp. While you were in the camp, how often did you see this

13 person Sikirica?

14 A. I once saw him at the entrance when I stayed there at the gate,

15 and he arrived. And after that I only saw him in passing, not very

16 frequently, when he was on his way to that office where the interrogations

17 were taking place. I don't think that he ever came close to where these

18 dormitories were, didn't approach that area very much.

19 Q. Did you, yourself, ever have any face-to-face contact with him?

20 A. No, no. Except at the entrance gate when this Kum of mine came

21 and brought me some food when the guards told me to get away.

22 Q. I'll turn to that in a moment. But for the moment, can you

23 describe this person you say Sikirica as he was in 1992? The way you saw

24 him in the camp.

25 A. Sikirica was shorter than either of the two of them, that is Kole

1 and Kajin, and he was shorter than I am. So he was let's say about 175

2 centimetres tall. He was well-built, more muscular, and he was also

3 darker brown hair. The face was a little bit rougher. I think I

4 mentioned that.

5 Q. What clothing did he wear?

6 A. He was wearing military uniform, a so-called SMB, dressed as a

7 soldier.

8 Q. Did he ever wear any headdress or anything on his head?

9 A. A hat.

10 Q. What kind of a hat was it?

11 A. I think it was a military-style beret or something.

12 Q. What colour was it?

13 A. So far as I can recall -- in fact, I don't know. Maybe the same

14 SMB colour.

15 Q. Did you ever see him without that cap on?

16 A. Yes, I did. I think he also walked about without it. I may have

17 seen him without it on several occasions too.

18 Q. What colour hair did he have?

19 A. Let's say it was brown, perhaps a little bit lighter.

20 Q. You've said that in terms of his face, his skin was a little bit

21 rough. Did you notice anything -- any other distinguishing features in

22 relation to his face?

23 A. I think he had a moustache at that time, so far as I can

24 remember.

25 Q. Do you feel, Witness C, that you would be able to recognise that

1 person again were you to see him today? You have to answer orally.

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Can you look around the courtroom, please, and see whether you

4 recognise him?

5 A. Yes, seat number two. That is where he is seated.

6 Q. And, again, is that in the back row?

7 A. Yes, in the back row in the second seat.

8 MS. BALY: I would ask that the record reflect that the witness

9 has identified the accused Sikirica.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

11 MS. BALY:

12 Q. Now, Witness C, I'm going to turn now to the conditions in the

13 camp and to the activities that would take place during the day and the

14 night.

15 Firstly, what would happen in the morning, say at around 9.00

16 a.m.?

17 A. Let's say at that time, for the most part, we were allowed to go

18 in groups of 10 to file out to the toilet. And this depended on the

19 shift, actually, not in every shift. And also it depended on what had

20 happened the day before.

21 Q. Firstly, in relation to the shifts, are you saying that one or

22 other shift was better than another in terms of being able to use the

23 toilets?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Which shift was the better shift?

1 A. For instance, Kole's shift was the best. It was better than the

2 others.

3 Q. And can you explain what you meant by "depending on what happened

4 the day before"?

5 A. For instance, there were times when the Serb troops were going to

6 the front line or coming back from the front line. Then they would be

7 shooting from the road, the main highway, which I indicated. And we were

8 not allowed to go out in order to prevent some incidents from happening,

9 and depending on which shift was on duty.

10 Q. Did anything else take place during the morning hours?

11 A. The shifts were changing around 6.00, and then the interrogators

12 would come sometime between 8.30 and 9.00. And then at 9.00,

13 interrogations would start, that is, a soldier would come with a piece of

14 paper and names would be called out, and then the inmates would be

15 questioned.

16 Q. Were you yourself ever questioned?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. Where did this questioning take place?

19 A. This took place in the offices located above Room 1, approximately

20 there, on the top floor.

21 Q. And who did the questioning?

22 A. These were -- are you interested in the names?

23 Q. If you know them, yes.

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 Q. Just pause there. Were these questioners guards at the camp?

5 A. Who are you referring to? No. These were interrogators, those

6 who were questioning us. They were, I don't know how to call them,

7 inspectors or investigators.

8 Q. So far as the guards at the camp are concerned, did they play any

9 role during this interrogation process?

10 A. I think they did not, except for the one with the piece of paper

11 who would come, call out our names, and then escorted us up to be

12 questioned.

13 Q. Did either Kole, Kajin, or Sikirica ever do that?

14 A. I think they did not, or perhaps infrequently. It was mostly this

15 one soldier who would bring this paper, while the investigators worked

16 upstairs.

17 Q. You said that you yourself were interrogated. On how many

18 occasions were you interrogated?

19 A. I was interrogated once in Keraterm.

20 Q. When was that?

21 A. That was approximately perhaps 15 or 20 days after my arrival at

22 the camp.

23 Q. What questions were you asked?

24 A. No, that is -- that was silly. Where I was, what I did, whether I

25 was a member of the party, whether I was politically active, things like

1 that, absurd questions.

2 Q. During that process, were you mistreated in any way?

3 A. I was not. My brother was, but I was not.

4 Q. I'm now going to ask you some questions about the camp

5 conditions. Firstly, the food. Did you receive food while you were in

6 the Keraterm camp?

7 A. We received some kind of water, sometimes there was some potato or

8 beans or some kind of noodles in it. It was some kind of a broth. We

9 received it only once a day. And with that, there would be a single slice

10 of bread, provided you were not the last one. Because even that food was

11 not sufficient for all the inmates to be fed.

12 Q. Of what quality was that food?

13 A. Oh, poor, poor, of course it was poor. It was hot water, hot

14 soup.

15 Q. And you've indicated that there was insufficient of that food for

16 the -- for all of the detainees. What happened to the detainees who --

17 when the food ran out?

18 A. Well, they had to go when the food ran out, and they had to go

19 back to their dormitories.

20 Q. Whilst you were in Keraterm camp, did you -- what happened to your

21 body weight?

22 A. Well, I lost about 15, 20 kilograms.

23 Q. You said you were fed once a day. Can you describe the feeding

24 process, just briefly, please?

25 A. Well, they -- it was per dormitories, 1, 2, 3, 4. Then 1, 2, 3,

1 4. Then 4, 3, 2, 1. And that is how we alternated. And the caldron was

2 as I showed on the sketch. It was next to this wall, to the WC, in front

3 of dormitory 2. And what would you get? You'd get a bowl or something.

4 You have to eat it very fast -- well, depending on the shift. But by and

5 large, you had to eat it very fast and then wash it, return it, and

6 depending on -- sometimes you couldn't wash it and then give the bowl to

7 the next inmate, and that's how it went on.

8 Q. During that procedure, did you ever see a person by the name of

9 Zoran Zigic?

10 A. Yes. That was a bloodthirsty one, and he was often in the camp.

11 Q. Who was Zoran Zigic?

12 A. I knew him before the war. He used to drive a taxi. I mean, I

13 knew him by chance. He was a taxi driver. He was very short-tempered

14 even before the war. And I know that he was brought to justice for a

15 murder before the war.

16 Q. You said it was very bloodthirsty when he was in the camp. Can

17 you describe what happened when he was in the camp?

18 A. Well, say, for instance, if we are having lunch, if he and Duca

19 turn up, that was a sign for us to disappear, to vanish from that place,

20 to get back into our dormitories as fast as we can. If we don't manage to

21 do that, then they select 10 or 15 inmates and start to beat them, to

22 mistreat them, kill them, and the rest. At any rate, we were terribly

23 afraid of him because we knew that chaos would start the moment he turned

24 up.

25 Q. How often did you see him in the camp?

1 A. Very often, very often. In the beginning perhaps more often, and

2 then towards the end of the camp less so. Only from time to time, because

3 I think -- at least that was the story that went around, that he had also

4 -- that he was also detained behind the dormitories because he had

5 committed some offence or other, and he was also serving a term. But be

6 that as it may, in the early days of my detention, he was there very

7 often. He did as he pleased. He really could do as he pleased. And

8 whoever he wanted to take out on, he did.

9 Q. Did he appear in the camp on all of the shifts or only on some of

10 the shifts?

11 A. Well, let's say he turned up during all the shifts, but perhaps he

12 couldn't really terrorise on all the shifts. Sometimes more, sometimes

13 less.

14 Q. Was there any particular shift on which he could terrorise less?

15 A. Well, I think that, for instance, during Kole's or, say, Kajin's

16 shifts, he really couldn't do that or at least while there was still some

17 daylight.

18 Q. Who was the leader of the night shift?

19 A. Well, it depended on the rotation of the shifts.

20 Q. By that do you mean that shift leaders would alternate between the

21 hours they worked?

22 A. Well, yes, as the shifts changed so they would leave. 12.00 the

23 next shift arrives and so on.

24 Q. You referred to a person by the name of Duca or Duca, who was that

25 person?

1 A. I did not know him personally before the war, but I heard that he

2 was a butcher by profession. I know he was short, very stalwart and like

3 Ziga or usually with Ziga. They'd come together and he also terrorised

4 the camp.

5 Q. Was his full name Dusan Knezevic?

6 A. Dusan Knezevic, I think so, yes. Dusan, I think so.

7 Q. You've spoken about the food. What about water, drinking water?

8 Did you receive adequate drinking water whilst in the camp?

9 A. Not in the early days, and we mostly had to use the water that was

10 there for industrial use. There was a manhole in front of the third room

11 or near the WC, I think, and there was the hose, the hose used to wash the

12 WCs when they were washed.

13 Then we'd pour that water into bottles, or whatever we had, and

14 later on, towards the closure of the camp, water systems arrived with

15 drinking water.

16 Q. Can you describe, please, the conditions that prevailed insofar as

17 personal hygiene, that is, washing bodies and clothes is concerned?

18 A. Well, I'll use my example. After 32 days I managed to get a

19 bath. I had a sweatsuit on me, and in time it got so dirty and torn that

20 I simply had to cut off its legs and turn it into shorts. I mean it was

21 horrible.

22 After about 20 days of my detention in the camp, I think lice

23 infested us. We were all infested with lice, all over our bodies and

24 hair. And then it depended on the mood of the shift leaders that we could

25 have a bath or not. As I told you, I had this bath after some 32 days.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 There were no showers -- well, towards the closure of the camp,

2 yes, it became slightly easier so that we could shave or something. No,

3 the hygienic conditions were nil. It begged a description. Simply how

4 one could keep people under such conditions and how they survived under

5 them, it's still beyond me.

6 Q. Witness C, insofar as the health of the inmates was concerned, was

7 there any consequence of drinking that industrial water that you mentioned

8 earlier?

9 A. Well, we often contracted dysentery from that industrial water.

10 That was really horrible because in Room 1 there wasn't even that barrel,

11 and the inmates had to relieve themselves in bags which we then left at

12 the entrance so as to be able to breathe at all. And it just -- depending

13 on whether an inmate had been beaten or not. If he had been beaten, he'd

14 just relieve where he was. So the stench, I mean that place reeked of

15 stench, and it really is indescribable. I don't know how people could

16 live there.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic.

18 MR. VUCICEVIC: This question, technically, is incorrect and it

19 calls for expert opinion and not a speculation from the witness. Where we

20 went with this answer, the answer was not responsive, and I ask it to be

21 stricken or another question to follow to fit the answer. Because

22 dysentery is not, and could not be a result from the industrial water, and

23 we don't have evidence -- we don't have a foundation --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, I think it's within the witness'

25 competence to provide the answer to the extent that he can. If you wish,

1 you can cross-examine on it.

2 MS. BALY:

3 Q. Witness C, you've given some evidence about what took place during

4 the day at the camp. What took place at night-time?

5 A. All this wouldn't have been so difficult had it not been for the

6 nights, and had it not been for the call-outs. On those occasions, and I

7 repeat once again, depending on the shift. But then guards would come and

8 beat with -- beat against those bars in the door of the dormitory and call

9 out some of the inmates, and then they would take them over here to where

10 dormitory 4 is near this garbage dump and that is where they beat them,

11 battered them.

12 Q. How often would that kind of thing take place?

13 A. Well, on the average, every two or three nights, they would call

14 out between 5 and 10 inmates, that order of things.

15 Q. What happened to those inmates who'd been beaten after they'd been

16 beaten?

17 A. It depended on one's physical health and when his turn came to be

18 beaten. Those who were physically weaker and those who were the first in

19 line, they would stay there. And some of the inmates, probably those who

20 were fifth or sixth in line when those had already got tired, then they

21 did have a chance of being -- of getting back to the dormitories and we'd

22 give them water, try to wash them a little, to help them come to. Some of

23 them died. Some of them survived.

24 Q. Did any of them ever receive medical attention?

25 A. Yes. Perhaps I saw, I think, two or three times, I'm not sure,

1 perhaps even on more occasions, that some of the inmates who had been

2 injured were taken away, I guess to the hospital, somewhere to get some

3 medical aid. But I say that, I think, only on two or three occasions. By

4 and large, no.

5 Q. Witness C, I'm now going to turn to some specific incidents that

6 took place in the camp, and the first incident that I'd like to ask you

7 about is an incident when your best man, or the man who had been the best

8 man at your wedding, visited you in the camp. Do you recall that

9 occasion?

10 A. Do I?

11 Q. When was that, in terms of your stay at Keraterm camp?

12 A. Well, it was about, I don't know, perhaps about a month after I

13 arrived in the camp.

14 Q. What happened on that occasion?

15 A. One of the inmates called me and said, "Somebody is looking for

16 you at the entrance. Go quickly." So when I reached the entrance, I saw

17 my best man, my kum. He had come with his wife and his two children, to

18 visit me. And he was the one who had asked me to come to the entrance.

19 Q. And what happened when you came -- when you arrived at the

20 entrance?

21 A. And when I reached the entrance, well, we stood there for about

22 five or six minutes. And then I saw his -- that his wife had brought a

23 bag with her, a bag full of food. And of course I was looking at that

24 bag. I wanted to get at that food. And of course we chatted there.

25 Meanwhile, however, a car appeared, and the guards cried out, "Get lost,

1 the camp commander is arriving -- is coming." And there I found myself in

2 a very awkward situation. I could not leave and leave the bag behind.

3 And so as he was drawing near, I just stayed there. And he went through

4 the entrance and went to this reception office, and then turned back. He

5 turned back -- now, I don't know. He said, "What's it? What's new?" or

6 something, he enquired of those guards around there, and looked at me

7 thinking, well, this is my best man, he's a Serb, he works in the paper

8 packaging factory. That is, I said all that. Simply all I had in mind

9 was to get my hands on that bag with food. And that is why I was there.

10 And Mr. Sikirica allowed me to stay there. I suppose -- I don't know if

11 he recognised my best man or whatever it was, but he let me just stay

12 there. And he then went back and I stayed behind for another 15 minutes

13 with that best man of mine, and it was then -- and I took the bag. It was

14 then that I got hold of that bag.

15 Q. After you'd got hold of the bag, what did you do?

16 A. And then I took this asphalt path on the -- on the left. I

17 started for dormitory number 1. And from the reception office this path

18 is slightly higher, and as I looked right, I saw Sikirica, and as I was

19 moving, as I was descending, I could see, looking sideways, that there was

20 an inmate in front of him. I believe that he was kneeling. And I was

21 moving towards the dormitory 1, and when I had fetched up there or just

22 passed by, I heard a shot. And of course, I was panic-stricken. I

23 thought, "Oh, my God, they have killed me." But then when I passed by, I

24 just turned to the right to see what had happened. And I -- then I heard

25 -- very well, do you want me to go on or --

1 Q. Just pause for a moment there, Witness C. What time of the day or

2 night was it when this occurred?

3 A. I think it was around roughly, in the afternoon, between 2.00 and

4 3.00, 2.00 and 4.00, thereabouts.

5 Q. Was it in the daylight hours?

6 A. Yes, yes, yes.

7 Q. What did you see when you turned around after you'd heard the

8 shot?

9 A. Then Mr. Sikirica was saying -- I think he uttered an obscenity,

10 and then he said, "This is how every inmate who tries to escape will

11 fare. I shall personally settle the score with him." And I think the

12 movements he was making looked like -- looked as if he was putting back

13 his pistol where -- I'm not really sure because when I heard that shot, I

14 turned mechanically and that is what I heard, quite well, and I think he

15 was putting back the pistol in the holster behind his belt or something.

16 Q. Did you see the inmate to whom you've referred?

17 A. As I was passing by, before that I saw him on his knees in front

18 of him. I did not know that man. I didn't know him personally.

19 Q. At the time after you'd heard the shot and when you turned around

20 and you saw what you thought was Sikirica returning his weapon to his

21 holster, did you see the inmate at that time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where was the inmate?

24 A. Well, at that time he wasn't there -- I mean, he had already

25 fallen down on the ground -- to the ground.

1 Q. Could you see what had happened to him?

2 A. I think he was shot dead. I mean, that was clear.

3 Q. How far away were you from Mr. Sikirica at the time when you saw

4 this incident, that is saw him returning his gun to his holster and the

5 inmate fall to the ground?

6 A. Well, say, there was this path between us. It could have been

7 some eight or ten metres on the right-hand side from where I was.

8 Q. And how far was this inmate who had fallen to the ground from

9 Mr. Sikirica?

10 A. He was right next to him, next to his feet.

11 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I'd like you to look at a series

12 of photographs, and these are photocopies of Exhibit 2. If you would just

13 firstly look through those photographs and see whether you can identify a

14 photograph that shows the area in which you saw this incident take place?

15 A. Well, for instance, this photograph perhaps, maybe, and maybe this

16 one, but this is from very, very far.

17 Q. Can you choose the best one, please?

18 A. Perhaps this one? Just a moment, please. Well, no. I think this

19 one would be the best, slightly clearer.

20 Q. Just pause there for a moment. I'm going to give you a pen. What

21 I'd like you to do -- what I'd like you to do on that photograph is mark

22 with an X please where you were when you saw this incident take place.

23 A. No, I can't do it on this photograph, this one. I walked like

24 this and I was here.

25 Q. Just pause there, please. I just want you to put an X where you

1 were when you saw Mr. Sikirica returning his gun to his holster and the

2 inmate fallen to the ground. Have you done that?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Can you place a Y, please, on that photograph where Mr. Sikirica

5 was at that point?

6 A. Well, here, for instance.

7 Q. And can you place a Z, please, where the inmate was?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are not seeing them, Ms. Baly, the Y and the

9 Z.

10 MS. BALY:

11 Q. Can you attempt to make the -- them a little bit clearer, please?

12 A. Yes, of course. This is my X, this is my Y, and this is Z here.

13 On the grass he -- the two of them were on the grass, on the grass next to

14 this road.

15 Q. Thank you. I tender that photograph.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

17 MS. BALY: Exhibit 14, I understand.

18 Q. Witness C, I'm going to move on now. Just -- those photographs

19 might be returned. Witness C, do you know who that inmate was who was

20 apparently shot?

21 A. I don't. However, from the -- from my later conversations with

22 inmates, we learned that it was not one of those three inmates who had

23 tried the escape. It was - that is what I learned later on, he was a

24 pilot. He really was a pilot who had lost his mind and simply wandered

25 around the camp. He had no self-control, and I suppose that the guards

1 must have planted him as the man who had attempted escape.

2 Q. Was there a time, Witness C, when a group of detainees from the

3 Brdo region arrived at the camp?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When was that?

6 A. It was much later, say late July. After the 20th, I should say,

7 after the 20th of July.

8 Q. Where had those detainees come from, apart from Brdo? Which

9 villages in particular?

10 A. Yes. Those were Stredica [phoen], Biscani, Rizvanovici,

11 Rakovcani, Hambarine, Zecovi.

12 Q. And are they all villages in the Brdo region?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. How many detainees were there that arrived from -- who arrived

15 from Brdo?

16 A. Well, those who managed it to Keraterm, they were -- and this is

17 just a guess on my part, they were about 200, maybe 250 detainees, two or

18 three buses, two buses, I think.

19 Q. What became of those detainees after they arrived at the Keraterm

20 camp?

21 A. When they arrived, those of us who were already senior inmates, we

22 sort of already learned to guess what would happen to them. They would be

23 in front of Room 3 during the day. They were there in the sun. A lot of

24 them became dehydrated. They were not given water.

25 And they kept them there. They would keep them there for four or

1 five days. During the day they would lie in the grass in front of that

2 dormitory, and then at night they would lock them up in the dormitory and

3 they would not give them either food or water. They did not receive any.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, it would be very helpful if we could

5 conclude the examination-in-chief today. I think, with the cooperation of

6 the interpreters, perhaps another how many minutes?

7 MS. BALY: Your Honour, perhaps another 15 minutes.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, well, we'll try. Yes.

9 MS. BALY: Witness C -- I'll try to move as swiftly as I can, Your

10 Honour, through the next -- for the concluding part of the witness'

11 evidence.

12 Q. Witness C, an event that has been referred to as the Room 3

13 massacre took place. I'd like you to focus upon that event. Where were

14 you when that took place?

15 A. I was in dormitory 1 on the sixth or seventh pallet to the left

16 inside the dormitory.

17 Q. Did the event take place during the night-time hours?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Describe, if you will, to the Court what took place.

20 A. Sometime around midnight, approximately, we heard that something

21 unusual was going on outside. There was some kind of an argument, a

22 quarrel of some kind, and by the noises made, there was -- it was clear to

23 us that a number, a substantial number of soldiers were entering the

24 camp. We concluded it by the clacking of their weapons.

25 Q. Witness C, were you able to see what was going on or were you

1 relying upon what you could hear?

2 A. I mostly relied on what I could hear, but occasionally I raised my

3 head and I looked in that direction, because dormitory 1 overlooked

4 directly the tarmac clear out to the entrance gate to the camp.

5 Q. What could you see or what did you see when you looked out?

6 A. The floodlights were turned towards dormitory 3. We were sort of

7 in semi-dark so we were not blinded by the lights. So I could see the

8 troops around the reception area. They were coming from the entrance gate

9 and they were taking positions there.

10 By the noises and by the sounds made by the weapons and by their

11 movements, we could conclude that they were taking positions in front in

12 the camp, in front of these dorms.

13 Q. What led you to conclude that there was a quarrel taking place?

14 A. This was the time of Kole's shift. He approached our room and

15 said something like, "There's about a hundred soldiers out there. Nobody

16 get up. Nobody raise your head. Better kill him because they would kill

17 him." And he said something to the effect that he could not control the

18 situation, and then he walked away.

19 Q. What took place after that?

20 A. After that, perhaps about an hour after these noises and after

21 these soldiers' voices, and in this interim period, we heard Kole and

22 these soldiers who had entered the camp quarrelling, arguing. An hour

23 after these soldiers had taken up their positions, we heard singing coming

24 out of Room 3. The inmates in Room 3 were singing.

25 Q. What exactly did you hear in terms of the quarreling that you've

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 referred to said?

2 A. Yes. In fact, Kole argued with these people, with these

3 soldiers. I don't know whether it had to do with these soldiers taking up

4 positions when they were making this semicircle, but his voice was -- his

5 voice was the dominant one. The argument went back and forth between him

6 and these soldiers.

7 Q. What was he saying?

8 A. From what I could hear of those words that he said, he did take

9 part in positioning of these soldiers.

10 Q. Witness C, I want you to just listen carefully to the question.

11 And the question was: What exactly did you hear Kole saying?

12 A. For instance, approximately something like, "To the right. Not

13 here. Over here. Don't do it without my order." Something to that

14 effect. This -- there were different things said from the start to the

15 end, from when the shooting started to the end.

16 Q. What was said when the shooting started?

17 A. When this terrible shooting started, it lasted for about 10 to 15

18 minutes, and then it stopped.

19 Q. What happened then?

20 A. Then, we could hear single shots, and then we could hear something

21 of what these soldiers were saying, "Watch the one to the right. Shoot to

22 the left. He is running to the toilet." And this is when you could hear

23 these individual shots.

24 Q. What did you hear Kole say, if anything, at that stage?

25 A. At that moment, I remember well when Kole said to the inmates in

1 number three, "Break the windows. To break the door." Because apparently

2 they were left without air in there. And what he was saying, and this

3 dialogue with the soldiers, for instance, at one point they told him,

4 "What are you meddling in? Let us kill them all. What are you meddling

5 in?"

6 Q. Did he respond to that?

7 A. I don't know now. I cannot say exactly what he responded. But

8 for the most part, it was this argument. This was the -- that is how it

9 went.

10 Q. When was it that you heard him say, "Don't shoot without my

11 order," or words to that effect?

12 A. Between these intervals of shooting, around that time.

13 Q. Doing the best that you can, Witness C, can you recall anything

14 else, specifically, that was said by Kole during that incident?

15 A. For instance -- well, in fact this is more or less it.

16 Q. Witness C, did you see the bodies of the persons who had been shot

17 after they'd been shot?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where did you see those bodies?

20 A. The next day, Kajin's shift took over, and they designated one

21 inmate from each of the rooms to go to number 3 to pull out the bodies of

22 those killed. A friend of mine from my room volunteered, and he went

23 there. I could see that from the front of the room, I saw a truck parked

24 in front of Room 3. They were bringing out the bodies on the grassy area

25 in front, and then they loaded them up on to the truck.

1 Q. And did the truck leave the camp with the bodies?

2 A. Yes, it did. When they loaded up the bodies, they ordered the

3 wounded ones to climb on top of the bodies. There were about 50 of them.

4 They lowered the canvas on the canopy and the trucks drove away

5 someplace.

6 Q. The following day, did you see more bodies in the camp?

7 A. The next day, during the night shift, there was again shooting in

8 Room 3, and later on, from the inmates' conversations, I learned that

9 those wounded inmates who declined to go -- leave, were then finished off,

10 15 or -- between 15 and 20 of them were then killed at that time.

11 Q. Did you see what happened to those bodies?

12 A. They were also loaded up on a smaller truck, another -- a military

13 truck with a canopy also, and then it also drove away in some unknown

14 direction.

15 Q. Now, Witness C, during the period after the massacre, did you have

16 occasion to see a military truck enter the camp?

17 A. Yes, very frequently, towards the end of the camp, before it was

18 dissolved, military canopied trucks were coming to the camp, and they were

19 asking for volunteers to go and round up livestock, also to gather -- to

20 pick vegetables or fruit, and they were asking for volunteers, and people

21 were also called out. These men were then taken in unknown directions and

22 we have not seen them since.

23 Q. Witness C, were you yourself ever mistreated in any way, apart

24 from the conditions that you endured, whilst you were in the camp?

25 A. Approximately a month after my arrival at the camp, I relaxed a

1 little bit, and what I mean by that is that I would venture out a little

2 bit more often. And one night, around midnight, my brother and I were

3 called out. We were in Room 1.

4 Q. And what happened to you after you'd been called out?

5 A. I responded. In fact, the basic thing was for someone to say that

6 you weren't there, but anyway, I responded and I said that my brother was

7 not there and that he was at Omarska. Then the man who called me out

8 said, "All right. You come over here." I managed to put on -- and again,

9 the important thing was to put on as many layers in order to sort of

10 absorb the blows. So I put on some clothing and took my identity card

11 with me. Then they said, "Go towards Room number 4, in fact towards the

12 garbage dump." They were all masked. I could only see their eyes. And

13 one of them said, "So you have a knife," which was nonsense. So I was

14 walking towards Room number 3, and this is where I stopped -- no, Room

15 number 4, in the direction near the garbage heap. And I talked to them

16 constantly, and they were -- they were talking about my being [redacted],

17 and I was saying, "No, no, no, that's wrong, I am -- I do the body work --

18 I have a body shop, I mean a -- I have a car business." And I said,

19 "Look," and I said, "Listen, my best man was" such and such a man, and I

20 would mention some Serb names that -- and I kept telling them how they

21 were mistaken. All the time I kept saying how this was mistaken, and that

22 I was telling them different things. And then one of them said, "Stop.

23 Stop talking now. If you go on talking, I'll kill you now." So they took

24 away my identity card at that time, and they started -- they huddled

25 together, and one of them said, "Go back now." I ran back to Room number

1 1, and that is how it ended on that night.

2 Q. How many of them were there?

3 A. Five, five or six of them.

4 Q. Did they beat you in any way?

5 A. Well, yes, they did. I did not feel the pain at that time. I

6 just kept talking. I just kept saying, "No, no, no, I'm not that

7 person." Only two or three days later, when I took my clothes off, my

8 brother screamed and said, "What you have on your back?" And they were

9 like these blue marks on my back from where I received blows.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: What did they beat you with?

11 A. I was lucky. They only beat me with a police baton. And they

12 kicked me a little bit with their military boots.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly?

14 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness C, were you released from the Keraterm camp on either the

16 3rd or the 4th day of August in 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. BALY: Pardon me, Your Honour.

19 A. My apologies, can I just make a comment?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is it in relation to?

21 A. After that night, I was called out one more time, because they

22 determined, I suppose, that I was indeed the person that they were looking

23 for. [redacted]

24 [redacted]. The rest were either

25 killed or were transferred to Omarska.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: And did anything happen when you were called out

2 that one more time?

3 A. I was lucky that time. I responded, and I said -- I said, "He is

4 in number 4." So they went over to number 4, so they would -- went to

5 look for me there. Then they would go to the reception, to see where I

6 was. And these ten minutes, which is what it took, saved me because the

7 chief of that shift, Tomo, came in a truck, and he was supposed to bring

8 me with another soldier, and I was already reaching for the door handle

9 and I thought it was all over. And at that point he had arrived, and he

10 said, "What are you doing here? What is going on?" And they ran away.

11 And this is what saved me.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly?

13 MS. BALY: I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we are going to take the adjournment now

17 until Monday morning. Witness C, you are reminded not to discuss your

18 evidence with anybody, including members of the Prosecution team.

19 Yes, Mr. Rodic?

20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies for

21 interrupting you. Witness C said that Tomo was the chief of shift, was in

22 the van with Witness A.

23 A. No, no, I never said that, I'm sorry. You had mentioned Witness

24 A.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, do not say anything. Let's hear what

1 the counsel is saying.

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Witness C did mention Witness A's --

3 Witness A's name.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ah.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Describing this situation, he did

6 mention Witness A.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: If that is so, we will have it checked and take

8 the appropriate action, Mr. Rodic.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. So I repeat what I said, Witness C:

11 During the adjournment, until Monday morning, 9.30, you are not to discuss

12 your evidence with anybody, including members of the Prosecution team.

13 We are adjourned.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

15 4.29 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday the 26^th day

16 of March, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25