Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 930

1 Monday, 26 March 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before we start with the proceedings this

7 morning, and I think it's with the cross-examination, I'd just like to say

8 that today we plan to work until 5.00 p.m., and on Wednesday as well. I'd

9 also like to say that in respect of the dimensions of the various rooms,

10 the Chamber would also like to get the height of the rooms. I think we

11 have the length and breadth, we'd also like to get the height as well.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS C: [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

15 Q. Witness C, I'd like to ask you some questions first of all,

16 please, about last week. Were you here in The Hague throughout last week?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you hear the question, Witness C?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you answer it?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, I don't know if we're hearing the

22 translation is the problem. I heard the witness answer the first time and

23 then we had the --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Ryneveld, please.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: I was about to say that I think that the difficulty

Page 931

1 is that we're not hearing the interpretation coming through the headset.

2 I think the witness did answer.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please proceed, Mr. Greaves.

4 MR. GREAVES:

5 Q. I don't want you to tell us where you were staying, Witness C, but

6 were you staying in a hotel here in The Hague with other people who were

7 due to give evidence or had given evidence?

8 A. Yes.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be advised to move closer to

10 the microphone. That might help.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness C, will you move closer to the

12 microphones.

13 MR. GREAVES:

14 Q. And in particular, Witness C, did you meet with and speak with

15 people who had already given evidence last week?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you speak -- don't tell us any names at all, that's very

18 important -- did you speak with them about the evidence which they had

19 given?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Or anything to do with the case involving the three defendants?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you learn if they had been given, as you have been given,

24 pseudonyms for the purpose of giving evidence?

25 A. For person B, yes.

Page 932

1 Q. How did you learn that that person had been given a pseudonym if

2 you didn't talk about the case, Witness C?

3 A. Because the two of us came from Bosnia, and before coming to The

4 Hague, we discussed the matters of witness protection, mostly the

5 protection of our identities because we had come together and we had come

6 from Bosnia.

7 MR. GREAVES: I'd like to move now into closed session, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, closed session.

10 [Private session]

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20 [Open session]

21 MR. GREAVES:

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 Witness C, is it correct that in relation to these matters, you

24 have, on two previous occasions, made written statements about events in

25 Prijedor, one in August 1992 -- I'm sorry. I will start that again. One

Page 936

1 in June 2000 and a second one in August 2000; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The first of those two that I mentioned in June 2000 is referred

4 to as being a statement made to AID. Will you just explain to us exactly

5 who AID is or are?

6 A. I don't know what they are involved in, but I know that the

7 official of the SUP, in fact, I thought it was the MUP or the SUP, I

8 thought this man worked there. He called me up and asked me whether I

9 knew [redacted]

10 [redacted].He called me up and asked me whether I could give a statement

11 on the camp. This is the first time that I gave a statement.

12 Q. In that statement you referred to the people who came to your

13 house as Chetniks, didn't you?

14 A. It is possible, yes.

15 Q. And that is a term that is used by people in Bosnia as a term of

16 abuse, isn't it, when referring to those on the other -- perceived to be

17 on the other side who are involved in armed activities, isn't that right?

18 A. I don't know what they think, but my view that all those

19 "uniformed" soldiers, uniformed I put in quotation marks, who did not

20 observe the rules of engagements and the rules of service of the military,

21 all those who did not respect such rules, to me, are Chetniks.

22 Q. Well, the group that came to detain you, did they do anything

23 wrong to you other than to arrest you?

24 A. At that time, in the house when they arrested me, I was -- they

25 did nothing to me. But later on, when I had to kneel down, when I had to

Page 937

1 sing these Chetniks' songs, things like that.

2 Q. The phrase "Chetnik", I suggest to you, is of a similar degree of

3 offensiveness as the phrase "balija" would be to a Muslim. That's right,

4 isn't it?

5 A. For the most part, yes.

6 Q. Why didn't you use the phrase Chetnik in your statement to the

7 ICTY then, Witness C?

8 A. I did not pay any attention to that.

9 Q. Was it perhaps because you were trying to conceal from the ICTY

10 your true views about the people on the other side?

11 A. No.

12 Q. I'd like to ask you now about the takeover the Prijedor, please,

13 if I may. 30th of April 1992, would you accept that that was a bloodless

14 takeover?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Although you've told us that you were prevented from working, is

17 it correct that in general, life continued much as normal apart from the

18 security clampdown in terms of checkpoints?

19 A. No, no. It was normal for the Serb people, but not for the

20 others.

21 Q. Although you were prevented from working, it was by no means

22 universal that everybody was prevented from working, was it?

23 A. Most everyone.

24 Q. When talking of the checkpoints last week, you spoke about Muslims

25 being stopped, but the checkpoints were stopping everybody and checking up

Page 938

1 on everybody's identity, weren't they?

2 A. No. Uniformed men were not checked and, for the most part, all

3 the uniformed men were Serbs.

4 Q. Yes. But what about those Serbs who were not in uniform who

5 wanted to go through checkpoints? What about those? They surely were

6 stopped, were they not?

7 A. No, they knew them.

8 Q. So the people on the checkpoints knew every Serb in Prijedor so

9 they didn't have to stop them; is that what you're saying?

10 A. For the most part, yes, because these checkpoints were in various

11 neighbourhoods of town so they would know most local residents from that

12 area, Muslim and Serb.

13 Q. And if a Serb came from another part of town and visited another

14 suburb, the people on the checkpoints there, they would know them

15 automatically, would they? Is that what you're saying?

16 A. No. His documents would probably be checked if they didn't wear a

17 uniform, but for the most part they did wear a uniform.

18 Q. The end of May, Witness C, it's right, isn't it, that there was

19 some fighting in the Prijedor area; do you accept that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And there was fighting between Serb forces and Muslim and Croat

22 forces; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And it was in reaction to that that the first large number of

25 arrests and detentions took place; isn't that right?

Page 939

1 A. No.

2 Q. The site of Keraterm, would you accept this proposition, Witness

3 C, that the site itself, on two sides at least, was open to two major

4 public roads? Do you accept that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And anybody passing in a vehicle or on foot or on a bicycle could

7 see into the main -- main area of the compound? Would you accept that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The fence that surrounded the compound was just an ordinary

10 industrial piece of fencing, not particularly tall, no barbed wire or

11 anything like that around it; is that right?

12 A. No, not in Keraterm.

13 Q. Sorry, it may be that your answer has come out slightly confused.

14 Let me just make it absolutely plain. There was no barbed wire around the

15 fence; is that what you're accepting?

16 A. No.

17 Q. The date of your arrest was the 12th of June, 1992, and the first

18 time that you saw the man you've identified as Dusko Sikirica was around

19 two weeks or a bit more than two weeks later, the 27th of June; would that

20 be about right?

21 A. No. Before that I saw him in a car, but after that, I would see

22 him up close.

23 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour just give me a moment, please?

24 Would Your Honour just give me a moment, please? I'm sorry. I've lost my

25 note. I'll come back to that in a moment, if I may.

Page 940

1 Q. You were interrogated at Keraterm. How soon after your arrival

2 there was the interrogation conducted?

3 A. Approximately after 20 to 25 days, maybe 20.

4 Q. And what was the nature of the questions which you were asked?

5 A. The same as before, whether before the war I had been politically

6 active, whether I had been a member of the SDA party, what was I doing,

7 what was I involved in, things like that. What my brothers were doing,

8 things like that.

9 Q. After the interrogation -- the people who conducted it, they were

10 known as inspectors; is that right?

11 A. Interrogators, something like that.

12 Q. And was it they who decided on what was to happen to individual

13 detainees, where they would be taken?

14 A. I couldn't say that.

15 Q. The inspectors or interrogators, they would come from outside

16 every day; is that right?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. The number of prisoners who were in the camp whilst you were

19 there, could you give us a number for that, please?

20 A. I don't know. Let's say approximately 500 to 600 men, when I

21 arrived, but later, the number increased significantly.

22 Q. To what sort of figure, Witness C?

23 A. It is hard to say exactly but I think approximately to -- up to

24 1200 to 1400 men, somewhere around there.

25 Q. When you first arrived, it's right, isn't it, that a man called

Page 941

1 Knezevic was the commander of the camp; do you accept that?

2 A. Very briefly, yes.

3 Q. When you say "very briefly," what do you mean by "very briefly"?

4 How long was he commander for?

5 A. About ten days, somewhere around there. Perhaps less, seven to

6 ten days.

7 Q. And was his first name Zivko Knezevic?

8 A. I think that I had stated so, yes.

9 Q. And before the war, you knew of him, is that right?

10 A. Well, in a way.

11 Q. Is this right, that he had been in the police, had retired, and

12 had subsequently been recalled to service?

13 A. I believe so, yes.

14 Q. Is this also right, Witness C, and it may be that you've gathered

15 this information from your inquiries about events in Prijedor, that a

16 second police station was established in Prijedor at the time of the

17 takeover of the municipality?

18 A. I don't know.

19 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honour will just give me a moment, please.

20 [Defence counsel confer]

21 MR. GREAVES:

22 Q. In an area of Prijedor called Urije Dva, I hope I've pronounced

23 that correctly, does that refresh your memory?

24 A. No. I could not move about so that I really had very little

25 information. I don't know.

Page 942

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Page 944

1 Q. Did you, yourself, see this man Zivko Knezevic in Keraterm?

2 A. A few times, yes.

3 Q. Was that only when he was said to be the commander or throughout

4 your stay at Keraterm?

5 A. Only when he was the commander. It was only then that I saw him a

6 few times.

7 Q. The ratio of guards to prisoners when the population of detainees

8 was at its height, would that have been approximately 15 guards to some

9 1.500 or 1.400 detainees? Would you accept that?

10 A. By and large, yes.

11 Q. Throughout your period of detention at Keraterm, Witness C, is

12 this correct that had the authorities so chosen, they could, at any time,

13 have killed all of you?

14 MS. BALY: Your Honour, I object to the question.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. On what ground?

16 MS. BALY: It calls for, in my submission, speculation on the part

17 of the witness. It's not for him to --

18 JUDGE MAY: Suppose it was rephrased: "Was there anything to

19 prevent the killing of all the detainees?" Could you object to that

20 question?

21 MS. BALY: No, Your Honour, I couldn't.

22 MR. GREAVES: I'm grateful for Your Honour's assistance, as

23 always.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

25 MR. GREAVES:

Page 945

1 Q. Witness C, was there anything which existed to prevent the killing

2 of all the detainees by those who -- in whose power you were?

3 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I don't understand it.

4 Q. Was there anything to prevent all the detainees from being killed

5 if those in whose power you were had so chosen?

6 A. Not only that, they could also decide not to kill anyone.

7 Q. Just a little, please, about the conditions which existed at

8 the -- at Keraterm. Were you, on occasions, permitted to have exercise

9 outside the buildings?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was that on a daily basis?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Every other day, every third day; how often, Witness C?

14 A. It depended on the shift leader and the mood they were in.

15 Q. The three different shifts which we've heard about in evidence,

16 would this be right that no two shifts had the same routine of operating?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And by "routine", I mean the times at which meals would be taken,

19 the times at which doors would be opened. All those things were different

20 depending on which shift, who was running the shift at any particular

21 time; is that right?

22 A. That is, on the shift leader and other guards in case the shift

23 leader was absent.

24 Q. The date when you left Keraterm would be the 3rd or 4th or perhaps

25 later in August 1992?

Page 946

1 A. That or maybe 5th August. I'm not quite sure. I don't remember

2 well, but it must have been either August 3rd or the 5th.

3 Q. And about a week or so before you left Keraterm, it's right, isn't

4 it, that a new commander came to the camp?

5 A. After the massacre in number three, yes.

6 Q. And his name was Marinko Sadzak?

7 A. I wouldn't know. I know he was quite elderly.

8 Q. I'd like to turn now about the allegation you make against

9 Mr. Sikirica of a killing. The first thing I'd like you to do, so that we

10 may know who it is, would you be so kind as to write down on a piece of

11 paper the name of your best man, please?

12 A. [Witness writes].

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is to be done with this?

14 MR. GREAVES: I think in the first instance it should be shown to

15 Your Honours, as a matter of courtesy, if nothing else, and then if I

16 could see it, please, and then we can have it exhibited. Thank you very

17 much. I think other counsel ought to see that as well, I think,

18 properly. And I'm gently reminded by Mr. Ryneveld that he'd like to have

19 a look.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

21 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, perhaps that better become an exhibit,

22 please, and it's obviously one that, because it involves potential

23 identification, ought to be a closed exhibit.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. What's the number?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D1/1.

Page 947

1 MR. GREAVES:

2 Q. Again, Witness C, without doing anything which is capable of

3 identifying that person by name, is it right that your best man, whose

4 name you've just written down for us, he was of Serb ethnicity; is that

5 right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The place where you say the murder took place, that spot would be

8 in full view, would it not, of both the main road and the road to the

9 entrance of Keraterm? Do you accept that?

10 A. From the main road, yes, but not from the main gate.

11 Q. As far as the evidence that you gave concerning that allegation,

12 Witness C, you told Their Honours last week that it was an inmate who had

13 told you to go to the gate; do you recall saying that?

14 A. No. A guard came and told me that I had a visitor.

15 Q. So why did you tell Their Honours last week that it was an inmate

16 who had summoned you to the gate?

17 A. Not an inmate, a guard only, because a guard came to the dormitory

18 and asks for so and so, so of course it's possible that detainees, since

19 we know one another, they will then look for that man, is he in this room

20 or in Room 2 or 3, so that is perhaps how it should be interpreted,

21 because detainees were not allowed to come close to the camp entrance, no

22 way.

23 Q. You told Their Honours last week that as you walked along the

24 asphalt path back to the buildings, you looked sideways and saw the

25 inmate. You believed him to be kneeling in front of Sikirica. Was

Page 948

1 Sikirica standing at that point, Witness C?

2 A. Yes, he was.

3 Q. Why, then, when you made your statement to AID, did you say that

4 you saw Sikirica sitting on a patch of grass to the right with the

5 prisoner?

6 A. I never said that. I don't remember that.

7 Q. Well, we have a translation of the statement that you made and it

8 quite clearly says in that statement that you saw Sikirica sitting. Any

9 explanation at all for that?

10 A. I don't think I said that.

11 Q. Well, I have no doubt we can check the original that was made and

12 see whether that's correct. When you gave evidence about having heard the

13 shot and turning to look in the direction of the shot, you told Their

14 Honours that you saw Sikirica putting the pistol back in a holster behind

15 his belt. Why did you tell the Bosnian authorities in that statement that

16 you saw Sikirica holding the pistol and pointing at the prisoner who lay

17 dead? Those two things are different, aren't they, Witness C?

18 A. Well, returning the pistol, at that split second when I looked up,

19 it could mean both things, returning, because I wasn't really watching.

20 It simply -- when I heard the shot it was a matter of a split second. I

21 just turned, had a look and fled, so that -- it was a split second, so

22 that --

23 Q. In evidence last week, you said that you heard Sikirica saying or

24 shouting, "This is how every inmate who tries to escape will fare. I

25 shall personally settle the score with him." Do you remember telling us

Page 949

1 that last week?

2 A. Precisely, precisely, to a word.

3 Q. Why, then, did you tell not just AID but also the OTP that what

4 Sikirica said at that point was, "Fuck your mother, that's what will

5 happen to anybody who tries to escape from this camp," or the slightly

6 alternative version to the OTP, "Fuck your mothers, this is what will

7 happen to all of you who attempt to escape from the camp. I will

8 personally deal with them."

9 Why did you say that in your statements?

10 A. Well, the oath, the expletive was in plural.

11 Q. You were the only person who witnessed this incident, weren't you,

12 Witness C?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You were the only person in the area, weren't you?

15 A. Yes, well, the nearest, maybe the nearest, yes, but other

16 detainees could see that too.

17 Q. What I suggest to you, Witness C, is that the variations in the

18 story that you have told to different people is explained by the fact that

19 it didn't happen, did it? There was no such incident.

20 A. That's what you think.

21 Q. Did you hear the name of the alleged victim, the pilot, at any

22 stage?

23 A. No, I did not, or I may have but I do not remember it. What I do

24 know well is that the detainees in Room 2 said that he was a pilot, and

25 that he was mentally unstable. That he wandered around the camp without

Page 950

1 any control so that he wasn't the man who had ever tried to escape.

2 Q. If I was to put to you the name Bajazit Jakupovic, would that

3 refresh your memory about the man's name?

4 A. No. I wouldn't know, really.

5 Q. You were aware of, in any event, this pilot whose -- had lost his

6 mind who was in Keraterm at one stage?

7 A. No, afterwards. After he was killed. It was then that we had

8 talked about who he was, what he was.

9 Q. You see, I suggest that that person wasn't killed at that stage

10 and he was, in fact, transferred to Omarska where he was killed.

11 A. That is what you think.

12 Q. You were just subjected to one beating; is that right?

13 A. That's right, except they tried to do it a second time but it was

14 only God Almighty who saved me then. So they tried to do it twice, twice,

15 and I survived by chance.

16 Q. Upon your arrival, you weren't beaten, I think, because you had

17 money; is that right?

18 A. Well, I don't know. At first I thought that that was the reason,

19 not I, but my neighbour, because he told me later on that he had had some

20 money with him. But then I was told that it was because Kole was the

21 shift leader and they did not beat people on that shift.

22 Q. Having been put into Room 2, you were detained there for a total

23 of about a month; is that right?

24 A. No, less, I think. I transferred after about ten days to Room 1.

25 Q. You see what you told the Bosnian authorities in the statement

Page 951

1 made to them was that, "They put us in hall 2 which is where they put the

2 non-Serbs from Donja Puharska who'd been arrested on the 30th of May and

3 taken from their homes to the camp. We were there for about a month."

4 Do you recall telling the Bosnian authorities that in your

5 statement?

6 A. Possibly. Listen, when one considers some details in greater

7 length, then it is quite possible that there is an inconsistency, because

8 at the investigation documentation agency, the AID, in Bosnia, never paid

9 a -- they simply did not pay attention and I just talked. Besides, I

10 wasn't really prepared for it, because until that time I simply did not

11 pause to think about the camp, about all this horror. And it is very

12 difficult to recall it and talk about it. So that the whole statement was

13 an ad hoc statement. So it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that it is

14 not precise.

15 It was only afterwards when I heard from The Hague that I should

16 come here then, I guess, on my own, well, I began to think about those

17 things in some detail. Even for two or three days when I come home and

18 then start analysing these things, and then I realise that I should have

19 been more precise in my statements.

20 Q. During the period that you were in Room 2, nobody was mistreated,

21 were they?

22 A. No. The first night people were taken out and killed. I can give

23 you the name of my friend, my friend who was beaten up that first night.

24 Q. Just returning briefly to the issue of the pilot, was the man

25 you've identified as a pilot, was he the only one, only pilot who was in

Page 952

1 Keraterm, as far as you knew?

2 A. I don't know. That is what I heard. I did not know him. I

3 wasn't in the same dormitory with him. It was after the camp, afterwards

4 I heard that he was a pilot. I did not know him at all. I simply did not

5 pay much attention to him.

6 Q. Did you ever hear later that other pilots had been detained at

7 Keraterm?

8 A. No. No, I didn't pay any attention to it, no.

9 Q. The people who were detained in Room 1, you observed at one -- at

10 some stage that nobody was taken out from Room 1 and beaten, were they?

11 A. I wouldn't say no one. Let me see how to put it. In comparison

12 with number 2, it was a negligible -- it was much better, much easier in

13 Room 1 because it contained interrogated detainees from Puharska.

14 Q. Well, Witness C, forgive me, but what you told the Bosnian

15 authorities was that when you were, "... transferred to hall 1 amongst

16 already questioned inmates, because I had noticed that no one from number

17 1 was taken out and beaten."

18 So the position is, I suggest to you, that nobody from Room 1 was

19 taken out and beaten?

20 A. I was taken from Room 1 and beaten, sir.

21 Q. What happened after your release, Witness C, did you go back to

22 your home?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How long did you remain there for?

25 A. About two months, maybe two months and a half.

Page 953

1 Q. Don't tell us where you went to, but did you then leave the

2 Prijedor area completely?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. During the two months between your release and your departure from

5 the Prijedor area, is this correct,that you could have been re-arrested at

6 any time by the authorities?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And again during that period, there would have been nothing to

9 prevent the authorities from killing you at that stage; is that right?

10 A. That I couldn't say. That is a vague question.

11 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

12 questions.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Petrovic?

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

16 Q. Witness C, how long have you known Kajin?

17 A. I did not know him at all. Perhaps just from sight in town.

18 Q. How frequently would you see him in town? And I'm referring to

19 the period before the war.

20 A. Very few times, perhaps a couple of times. His brother, yes, but

21 Kajin himself, no.

22 Q. Where would you have seen him?

23 A. I don't know, in passing, in town.

24 Q. If I understood you correctly, you know his brother better?

25 A. Yes.

Page 954

1 Q. How do you know him? If I can just ask you to slow down and wait

2 until my questions are translated to you.

3 A. From town, really.

4 Q. What is his name?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Does he have any nickname?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. In your statement, you said that you did not see Kajin committing

9 any crime in Keraterm?

10 A. Personally I did not.

11 Q. Did you have any contact with him while you were in Keraterm?

12 A. No.

13 Q. No direct contact with him?

14 A. No.

15 Q. With his brother?

16 A. Perhaps we saw each other once.

17 Q. When did you see him? How did -- what happened on that occasion?

18 A. I don't know, somehow in passing. One was glad to see someone

19 whom one knew.

20 Q. Did he tell you anything?

21 A. I don't recall.

22 Q. Could you perhaps remember where you saw him in relation to the

23 room where you were staying?

24 A. Perhaps on the asphalt walkway in front of number 2, outside.

25 Q. In other words, you were outside in front of the room?

Page 955

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you spent 55 days in Keraterm?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. From what you could have seen, what was the behaviour of Kajin

5 towards those people who were detained there?

6 A. I don't know. Personally?

7 Q. I'm referring to him personally.

8 A. Not badly, not badly.

9 Q. What does that mean, "not badly"?

10 A. Well, he was correct.

11 Q. When -- during his shift did he allow people to come out of the

12 room?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did anyone in his presence limit you in terms of the time that you

15 were given to finish your meals?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who was this?

18 A. I think that the Banovics were in that shift, and they did it.

19 Q. I was asking in his presence, when he was there.

20 A. In his presence, no, or if -- or perhaps very infrequently.

21 Q. So if you say "very infrequently," you remember an occasion or do

22 you -- or so? How did it look?

23 A. Perhaps there could have been a situation when, due to the

24 presence of interrogators, we may have been limited, or if something had

25 happened, some incident, then they wouldn't let us come out in any shift.

Page 956

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Page 958

1 Q. Do you recall such a situation or are you just inferring that on

2 the basis of everything that took place in Keraterm and everything that

3 you knew about Keraterm?

4 A. No. I infer because I don't have any specific recollection. How

5 could I?

6 Q. I assume that that also refers to the going to the toilet?

7 A. Yes, overall movement.

8 Q. Do you recall whether Kajin personally ever limited any of these

9 rights that you had, if I can call it that?

10 A. Well, depending on the interrogators up there or if the camp

11 commander would come, then it -- we would be pushed back into the rooms.

12 Q. What was Kajin's brother's attitude in the camp?

13 A. I saw him very infrequently but his behaviour was all right.

14 Q. Let me take you back to the period before the Keraterm. In Donje

15 Puharska a Crisis Staff was established; is that correct?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Do you know whether on the 21 November, 1991, a Crisis Staff was

18 established?

19 A. I don't know. I was not politically active and did not take

20 interest in those things.

21 Q. Do you know who Mirza Mujetic is?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who is it? Could you tell us a little something about him?

24 A. From what I know, he was the SDA president in Prijedor.

25 Q. Until when did the Prijedor municipal assembly function?

Page 959

1 A. I don't know. Perhaps until early 1992, but I wouldn't be able to

2 tell you exactly.

3 Q. Why did it stop functioning? What happened?

4 A. I don't know. I was not interested in politics at that time.

5 Q. You mentioned, both today and in Thursday, about checkpoints set

6 up by the authorities after the takeover. Do you know anything about any

7 Muslim checkpoints in Hambarine, in Kozaruse?

8 A. I may have heard of that, the one in Hambarine, but overall, no.

9 Q. And who manned the checkpoint at Hambarine?

10 A. I know that there was an incident there. This is how we in

11 Prijedor learned about it. There was some confrontation.

12 Q. But who manned the roadblock at Hambarine?

13 A. Because it's a Muslim village, I suppose it was the Muslims.

14 Q. Do you know how this barricade was operating?

15 A. I don't know, because I wasn't passing there.

16 Q. Could you tell us regarding the attack on the town?

17 A. For about a month the situation in town was quiet and there were

18 no casualties.

19 Q. Who took an offensive action against the town?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 Q. In your statement you said that in early 1992 the authorities had

22 issued a threat to people, that if they didn't go to Croatia, that they

23 would lose their jobs. Who was the authority in town in this period?

24 A. I think that at that time, it was the national parties that had

25 the power.

Page 960

1 Q. Which national power -- national parties? We know, but if you can

2 help us with it?

3 A. I think it was the SDA and I think it was party of the SDS and the

4 HDZ.

5 Q. So you're referring to all three national parties?

6 A. Something like that, at least formally.

7 Q. Who at that time was the president of the Prijedor municipality?

8 A. It was Professor Muhamed Cehajic.

9 Q. What party did he represent?

10 A. SDA.

11 Q. At that time, if you say that you did not engage in politics and

12 you did not know at the time, but if you know, I would like to know your

13 opinion about the JNA. Whose army was that? Were officers and soldiers

14 coming from all ethnic groups in the country?

15 A. What period are you referring to, early 1992?

16 Q. Yes, early 1992.

17 A. I think that at that time, in addition to the Serbs, there were

18 other ethnic groups represented there but this was gradually dissipating.

19 In other words, people were leaving it as the war in Croatia progressed.

20 I think that they were leaving it.

21 Q. Who was leaving it?

22 A. Not the Serbs. Muslims and Croats, that is.

23 Q. In the town of Prijedor, were there any protests against the

24 Yugoslav Peoples' Army? I'm still referring to the period before the

25 war.

Page 961

1 A. I don't recall.

2 Q. Let me take you back to the period after the takeover of power as

3 you described it. You mentioned that people of non-Serb ethnic background

4 were being taken -- had been taken away their healthcare benefits. Were

5 people of Muslim background receiving any healthcare in healthcare

6 institutions in Prijedor?

7 A. I guess there were such cases, but they had to pay for it out of

8 their own pockets.

9 Q. Do you know that, in fact, only in surgery, there were 720

10 non-Serbs received healthcare based on the health insurance from before

11 the war?

12 A. I don't know that. I know that some of the inmates were taken

13 there for medical care.

14 Q. You said that they had to pay -- that people had to pay out of

15 their own pockets. If I can extend this, were they also required to pay?

16 A. Why don't you ask them?

17 Q. When -- did all these troubles start after the takeover of power

18 or even before?

19 A. After the takeover of power, but there were tensions even before.

20 In March you could clearly feel that something was wrong, but especially

21 after the takeover of power.

22 Q. Now I'm talking about bans and the things like that?

23 A. Yes, it started in March but after the takeover of power, terrible

24 propaganda on radio started and also in Kozarski Vijesnik, the newspaper.

25 Q. What was your last date of work in your place of employment,

Page 962

1 approximately if you can put a date on it?

2 A. I don't recall, trust me.

3 Q. At least a month?

4 A. Early in 1992.

5 Q. You last went to work in early 1992?

6 A. Exactly.

7 Q. And the reason was what?

8 A. At that time it became a rule that only those who were in uniform

9 could enter the perimeter of the company. In other words, only those who

10 had stayed loyal, only those who had stayed loyal to the JNA.

11 Q. That was in early 1992?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know who was in the management of the largest companies in

14 the Prijedor area at that time?

15 A. I know.

16 Q. Who were those?

17 A. Balaban, Marijanovic, Cehajic and so on.

18 Q. Who was the chief of SUP at that time in Prijedor? I'm again

19 referring to early 1992 when you were already not permitted to enter the

20 premises of the company?

21 A. That was not official, but there were already pressures, and it

22 was an unwritten rule, "Do not show up without uniform." And after the

23 takeover of power, there were actual rules imposed.

24 Q. Before the takeover of power, who was the chief of SUP in

25 Prijedor?

Page 963

1 A. I think that he was an ethnic Muslim, last name Talundzic or

2 something. I know that he used to work for the [redacted]company, in my

3 company.

4 Q. You also mentioned your brothers. Until what time did they stay

5 in their jobs?

6 A. Same as I did, because at that time,we were some kind of[redacted]

7 there.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can I ask if we could move to

9 private session briefly, please?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

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Page 964

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Page 967

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13 [redacted]

14 [Open session]

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Let me take you back to the incident at Hambarine again. Do you

17 know who the first casualties of the armed conflict were?

18 A. From what we could learn in Puharska, because that was on the

19 opposite end of the municipality, I think that there was a confrontation

20 between these people, the policemen at the checkpoint and soldiers who

21 were going in the direction of Ljubija.

22 Q. My question was: Who were the first casualties?

23 A. I think that there were some on both sides.

24 Q. What is the name of the neighbour who ordered you and your brother

25 to come out of the house?

Page 968

1 A. Brane Bosnjak.

2 Q. What is his ethnic background?

3 A. I don't know. I think he's a Serb. At least he referred to

4 himself as a Serb, and his children.

5 Q. This armed group, if I can name it that, that arrested you,

6 according to you, to which military structure did they belong? What were

7 they, police, army, White Eagles, paramilitaries?

8 A. They were all soldiers, at least based on their uniform.

9 Q. But according to you, to whom -- to which unit did they belong?

10 A. I don't know, but they took us to the MUP so they were the legal

11 JNA military. Had they been paramilitaries, I think that they would have

12 taken us somewhere else.

13 Q. If they were the military, I don't see the logic of their taking

14 you to the MUP.

15 A. They all worked together.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, do you think that

17 this would be the right moment to take a break, or shall I move on with my

18 questioning?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. This is a convenient time for us to take

20 the break. We will take the break and resume at 11.30.

21 Witness C, you are reminded not to discuss your evidence with

22 anybody, including the Prosecution team.

23 --- Recess taken at 11.01 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may continue, Mr. Petrovic.

Page 969

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. When, precisely, do you think that you were arrested unlawfully?

3 A. 12 of June.

4 Q. Sorry, I didn't hear you?

5 A. The 12th of June.

6 Q. No, I mean the precise moment when those men came to your house or

7 what?

8 A. Yes. At the moment when my house was surrounded and when I was

9 arrested.

10 Q. You mentioned some persons in the police building in Prijedor;

11 which policemen did you see there?

12 A. I did not know those men except that lad while I was kneeling who

13 came to me and asked me what my name was. I knew that young man by

14 sight. I don't know his name. And he told me then to stand up.

15 Q. Your brother was beaten at the police, wasn't he?

16 A. That is what they told me. As they took him upstairs for

17 interrogation of sorts, it was then that they beat him.

18 Q. And who beat him?

19 A. The man upstairs. That man, what shall I call him, an

20 investigator.

21 Q. What was his name?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. You mentioned that when you were taken to Keraterm, that some

24 papers were put at the weigh hut. You couldn't see those papers, I

25 understand, but what do you think those papers were?

Page 970

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Page 972

1 A. It is my view afterwards being -- since I became a seasoned

2 inmate, if I might call myself that, this contained the name of the

3 detainee, that is his first name and last name and, what shall I say, a

4 reference. That is, it presumably said who was guilty of what. In those

5 early interrogations, that is my view. They put an evaluation, an

6 evaluation of -- personal evaluation, that is, people who had been

7 interrogated and taken to the police as the four of us were, and then an

8 opinion about them was put down on paper.

9 Q. But how could they give a personal evaluation about you as you

10 were not interrogated?

11 A. You ask them.

12 Q. Well, I'm asking you because you tell us it was a personal

13 evaluation so what could they tell you when nobody talked with you there?

14 A. Well, I suppose they thought I was not important until -- since

15 they did not interrogate me.

16 Q. Now, were people's names in dormitories taken down?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did they know who was in which dormitory?

19 A. No.

20 Q. But then who took those names and what did they take down?

21 A. Frequently, Kajin, especially, that is, that stuck in my memory,

22 they would take out all the inmates for some kind of roll-calls, for some

23 list read-outs, I'm not sure what it was. But many inmates were killed

24 during evening roll-calls, following lists. I suppose lists, I suppose,

25 the lists had the names of people who were not there, who were missing.

Page 973

1 Q. This is the first time that you mention that all detainees were

2 taken out. Why did you remember it now?

3 A. Well, this is the first time that somebody's asking me about it.

4 Q. Well, wouldn't one think of it even without being asked? I mean,

5 when one thinks about what went on in the camp --

6 A. I did not think it important, nor did anyone ask me about it.

7 Q. So there were -- there wasn't taking down of names in dormitories,

8 did they exist or didn't they?

9 A. How should I know?

10 Q. So you don't know?

11 A. But I know that attempts were made to establish roughly.

12 Q. What?

13 A. The number of detainees and whether they were there.

14 Q. When you arrived how many rooms were there?

15 A. Only two, dormitories 1 and 2.

16 Q. You said that you decided that Room 1 was better for you than Room

17 2. Does that mean --

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Does that mean that you could change the room in which you were

20 without asking anyone, without seeking any permission?

21 A. Quite so.

22 Q. Well, it sounds a bit odd, in view of what you are telling us

23 about that place. It means that people could of their own will just move

24 from room to room.

25 A. Why should it be odd? Of 1200 or 1300 inmates, they simply could

Page 974

1 not keep an eye on all of them.

2 Q. And when you moved, were there 1200, 1300, or how many?

3 A. Well, at that time there were much less, much less. There could

4 have been about 400 or 500 of us.

5 Q. A moment ago you said that there were about 60 when you arrived.

6 A. Well, say there were 600, how could I know? I can tell you

7 roughly 400 or 500, but it could be 600.

8 Q. Well, how do you make these assessments, 400 or 600?

9 A. Simply. When I arrived about one-third of the camp was full.

10 When there was the largest number of detainees, then we were about 1300,

11 1400, so that is how I roughly tried to assess.

12 Q. You mentioned some searchlights?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When and where were those searchlights placed?

15 A. The searchlights were placed at a rather late date. I cannot

16 remember when that was exactly, but say towards the closure of the camp,

17 perhaps some 20 days before it -- in the latter half of my detention.

18 They did not exist in the beginning.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please put on the

20 ELMO Exhibit 2E?

21 Q. Can you see those searchlights in this photograph?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You can't?

24 A. No, I can't, not on this photograph.

25 Q. No, no, no. Just leave the photograph there. Will you please

Page 975

1 leave the photograph there.

2 A. No, no, no, no, no.

3 Q. Could you now, please, put your drawing on the ELMO? I do not

4 know the number, the number of the drawing. I apologise. Thank you. And

5 where are the searchlights on this drawing?

6 A. Yeah, right, so here, on this sketch, in the corner, that is where

7 I drew them, in front of dormitories 1 and 2.

8 Q. My question was: Where are the searchlights? So tell me where is

9 the searchlight on this picture here that we have on the ELMO?

10 A. Right here.

11 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. He's drawn it on the plan, so he's

12 told us where it is, Mr. Petrovic. There is no need to go over it again.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, yes.

14 Something is drawn and it is marked as "searchlights" but not to the two

15 lampposts which existed there before, before the armed conflict, which

16 were still there during the armed conflict and which still are there --

17 which are still there.

18 Q. My question is: Where are they, because this is rather a detailed

19 sketch?

20 A. The lampposts have nothing to do with the searchlights. As there

21 were no -- as they were -- as their lights were never on, as far as I can

22 remember.

23 Q. Thank you. Let's move on. Then tell us very briefly, these

24 searchlights, at what height were they mounted? What kind of bulbs did

25 they have? What was that?

Page 976

1 A. I can't remember exactly what type of bulbs they had. I know they

2 were mobile. That is, those were searchlights which had been brought

3 there at a later date. In the beginning they were roughly one searchlight

4 per two dormitories but, later on, both searchlights were directed more or

5 less at Room 3, at dormitory 3. I think they had a special source of

6 energy, as far as I can remember. I'm not sure about that. But I know

7 they put them there later on.

8 Q. You said much later?

9 A. Yes, some 20 days or something like that.

10 Q. I'd like to go back, very briefly, to food and water, which was

11 supplied in Keraterm. Who supplied it? What kind of means of

12 transportation were used?

13 A. As far as I can remember, food was delivered in a yellow, small

14 TAM truck, and water later on -- oh, dear, what was that? I think for a

15 while, it was an army cistern, and later on, I think a civilian one, I

16 think so. Well, at least it wasn't olive-green grey.

17 Q. How do you know that? Who sliced the bread that was brought?

18 A. The inmates could apply or those whom they choose -- chose.

19 Q. Now, something about the security. Did you ever see anyone but

20 guards on duty doing the security job?

21 A. Lamentably, yes.

22 Q. Whom did you see?

23 A. I think that --

24 Q. Excuse me for interrupting you. I'm not asking you about your

25 opinion. I'm asking you about your recollection.

Page 977

1 A. Well, that is the same, isn't it?

2 Q. Well, not quite.

3 A. Well, my recollection is that anyone could come to the camp, that

4 is, any Serb could come, whether in a uniform or not, and they did come.

5 Q. Were there any military police units in the neighbourhood?

6 A. Possibly behind, behind the dormitories. That is something I

7 heard. I don't know.

8 Q. You mentioned Zivko Knezevic several times, and you said that he

9 was the commander during the first ten days or so which means, if my

10 calculation is good, around the 22nd?

11 A. Thereabouts.

12 Q. How did you know that he was the commander?

13 A. Very simply. On the basis of the behaviour of shift leaders and

14 other guards, when a car bringing in the camp commander would come, be

15 that Knezevic or Sikirica, they behaved differently. They either forced

16 us to go back into the rooms or something. At any rate, we could see by

17 their behaviour that the camp commander was on his way.

18 Q. The other day you used the word "awe". Was Zeljko Knezevic viewed

19 with awe?

20 A. Well, yes, you could also say that, or respect, or awe. But be

21 that as it may, they would start behaving differently.

22 Q. Will you please answer my question?

23 A. You could say that.

24 Q. Did you ever see Knezevic's orders?

25 A. Yes, I did, mostly around that reception hut. That is where he

Page 978

1 would come to speak to shift leaders or guards. He never came near the

2 dormitories.

3 Q. In your statement, you mentioned that you used the telephone on

4 one occasion. Where was that telephone?

5 A. In that reception office, to call it that.

6 Q. And when was that?

7 A. I don't really remember, but I know that a friend of mine was on

8 guard duty, my best man's kum. And my brother called me during that

9 period of time, and then he came to fetch me and I answered.

10 Q. I didn't understand. Did your brother call you or did you call

11 him?

12 A. No, no, no. He called my brother.

13 Q. And who is this man?

14 A. I can tell you no problem.

15 Q. Just a moment. Do you want to go into closed session to give us

16 the name?

17 A. Well, I don't know. Perhaps. Perhaps it would be better.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Right so could we go into closed

19 session for a moment.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, closed session.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 979

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2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

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5 [Open session]

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You said several times that some orders were given from the weigh

8 hut. Did you hear them? Do you know the contents of the conversations?

9 Did you hear what they were talking about?

10 A. No.

11 Q. How long were the shifts in Keraterm in the early days?

12 A. In the early days, as far as I can remember, they were from 6.00

13 to 3.00. Afterwards --

14 Q. My question was in the beginning.

15 A. Yes, yes, from 6.00 to 3.00, I think.

16 Q. And then the next?

17 A. And then the next from 3.00 to 11.00 maybe, and then from 10.00 to

18 6.00 again.

19 Q. And at a later stage?

20 A. At a later stage they were 12-hour shifts, that is 6.00 to 6.00.

21 Q. There were three shifts, weren't there?

22 A. I think so.

23 Q. And throughout your detention in Keraterm?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On Thursday you mentioned Tomo Prodan's shift. What shift was

Page 980

1 that?

2 A. I think that he was there replacing somebody. I'm not sure, but I

3 know that the second time they took me out, it was owing to these men that

4 my life was saved by accident.

5 Q. If I understand well, it is between Thursday and today that you

6 remember that he was replacing somebody, standing in for somebody?

7 A. I don't understand.

8 Q. It is between Thursday and today that you remember that he was

9 standing in for somebody?

10 A. No, perhaps he was a shift leader. I don't know. But that night,

11 he was the shift leader.

12 Q. But if he was standing in for somebody, who could it be?

13 A. I don't know.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

15 microphone.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness C, you're being asked to come closer to

17 the microphone. Would you move closer to the microphone.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. When you were questioned in the administrative building, did

20 somebody take notes? Did somebody keep minutes?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Who was that?

23 A. Well, that investigator. He was writing down something with a pen

24 in a notebook.

25 Q. And did the outcome of the interrogation determine which room

Page 981

1 people would be transferred to?

2 A. I cannot say exactly whether it was the outcome of the

3 interrogation which determined that, but in the early days, those

4 interrogated were largely moved to Room 1.

5 Q. And in those early days, was somebody released from Keraterm?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How many people were released?

8 A. Well, about 20, since those 20 also included my eldest brother.

9 Q. And what was your impression, were they released after the

10 interrogation in view of the results of this interrogation?

11 A. I couldn't tell you exactly, but more than one half of them were

12 rearrested and taken back to the camp.

13 Q. Tell me something about the behaviour of those investigators and

14 guards. What was your impression? Who was subordinate to whom; guards to

15 investigators or investigators to guards?

16 A. I do not think that you can put them together.

17 Q. Why do you think that?

18 A. Well, I simply think that the guards had their own superiors, and

19 the inspectors, as likely as not, had their own superiors.

20 Q. But did guards decide who would be taken for interrogation or was

21 it the inspectors?

22 A. Inspectors. They would send out a piece of paper with the name of

23 the person.

24 Q. And your brother was interrogated; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 982

1 Q. Your brother who was brought in with you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And how did he fare during the interrogation?

4 A. He was ill-treated.

5 Q. Who ill-treated him?

6 A. The interrogator, Rodic.

7 Q. And do you know where Zigic was incarcerated?

8 A. From what I learned, it was somewhere behind our dormitories.

9 There was something, a prison or something, and that's where he was, I

10 guess.

11 Q. Zigic came to Keraterm very often?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How often?

14 A. Well, I don't know. In the beginning -- in the early days of my

15 detention, he was there practically around the clock, and later on, after,

16 say, a month or so, less often.

17 Q. But how often did Duca come?

18 A. Very often.

19 Q. Did he come at regular intervals?

20 A. No.

21 Q. On two or three occasions you told us people wanted to see a

22 doctor. What did that look like? Who took those people to the doctor?

23 Who was involved in that?

24 A. Well, I think it depended on the shift leader. If the shift

25 leader provide some means of transportation, then people could go to be

Page 983

1 examined.

2 Q. And how often did Kajin provide transportation for detainees?

3 A. I couldn't give you an exact number, but altogether --

4 Q. Will you please answer my question?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. In your statements you also mentioned a disinfectant was sprayed

7 around rooms?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was that? Why? Who brought it?

10 A. Since about 15 or 20 days after I arrived in the camp, we all

11 contracted lice and we were infested all over, hair and body, and we were

12 then ordered to bring everything out of the dormitory and then the place

13 was disinfected and we were sprayed on the hair.

14 Q. Now, I should briefly like to go to the massacre. Who from your

15 dormitory went out to collect the bodies, if you know their names?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. Well, tell us, then.

18 A. I already said Senad Altak, I believe his name was. He was from

19 my dormitory.

20 Q. And that morning, did you see anyone in the Keraterm compound whom

21 you did not see regularly in the camp, that is others than guards, police

22 officials, or somebody else?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you see Zivko that morning?

25 A. [No answer].

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Page 986

1 Q. Let me now turn to your beating. You said that these people were

2 wearing masks?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I conclude or infer that they were probably wearing masks so that

5 you wouldn't recognise them?

6 A. Probably.

7 Q. So if they didn't want to be recognised, that means that they were

8 in fear that you might say this to someone?

9 A. We can assume that that was so.

10 Q. So they were afraid of someone?

11 A. Perhaps it was their conscience.

12 Q. In addition to their conscience, was there anything more tangible

13 that they might have been afraid of?

14 A. Perhaps that somebody would survive and then talk about it.

15 Q. I didn't understand you.

16 A. They were afraid that the inmates whom they were taking out and

17 perhaps survive would later on accuse them of something.

18 Q. So you assumed that they already had that in mind when they were

19 wearing masks, that they would foresee something like this?

20 A. I don't know if they could have foreseen something, but this is

21 how they behaved.

22 Q. Do you know that you're the only person who says that he was

23 beaten by masked men in the camp?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Did you hear of anyone else who was beaten by masked persons, in

Page 987

1 addition to yourself?

2 A. Oh, yes.

3 Q. Who was this?

4 A. Seventy per cent of the inmates.

5 Q. Can you name one, two, five of them?

6 A. There are 155 names I can mention.

7 Q. Please name one.

8 A. Let's say when Alisic was taken out of my room, that was -- they

9 would call out everybody from Alisici who was in the room, and this was

10 usually done by men who were wearing masks, but men like Ziga or Duca did

11 not wear masks.

12 Q. Did these men wearing masks come in front of the room and call out

13 detainees?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would I be mistaken in concluding that this was, then, a frequent

16 pattern?

17 A. On average, every third night people were called out and beaten.

18 Q. No, no. I'm just asking about the masked men.

19 A. No. That is -- these were not masks. These were hoods. People

20 -- men were just put on hoods when they would call men out. In other

21 words, they did not wear masks.

22 Q. You were talking about the months of June and July. How did they

23 have hoods during that period?

24 A. These wartime uniforms, as -- they had hoods, in other words they

25 had -- they would put those hoods on. In other words, they were wearing

Page 988

1 this winter SMB overcoats in July.

2 Q. I remember that on Thursday, you said that the temperature during

3 that period reached 34, 35 Centigrade?

4 A. During one period it was terribly hot and there were showers, but

5 throughout that period, it was terribly hot.

6 Q. So I assume that it was part of the military discipline that they

7 wore -- they were wearing these winter-time hooded jackets?

8 A. The daytime and night-time temperature varied quite significantly,

9 10, 15 degrees.

10 Q. Just a moment. Perhaps I could jog your memory. You said that

11 these -- you could only see eyes and the Trial Chamber heard that. Do you

12 still maintain that they only had hoods on?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Then how would that -- how could you say that if they all were

15 wearing hoods?

16 A. Well, let me put it this way: It was 12.00 at night, and if

17 somebody is wearing a -- if somebody is wearing a hood, you can only see

18 his eyes.

19 Q. What about the nose, the beard?

20 A. I was afraid to look. Maybe I just flashed a glance.

21 Q. And if the floodlights are shining, you couldn't -- couldn't you

22 see?

23 A. No, you couldn't. There were no floodlights at the time. They

24 came later.

25 Q. Later how?

Page 989

1 A. Much later, after my arrival.

2 Q. Everything that you know happened after your arrival there because

3 -- you don't have to point that out especially. What I'm asking you is

4 what happened during your time there? If you cannot respond, I'll move

5 on.

6 A. What are you referring to?

7 Q. I'm talking about the men in the hoods, about what was going on

8 when they were taking you out?

9 A. When they took me out, there were no floodlights, so that I could

10 not see them.

11 Q. I have only two additional questions. Can we please move into the

12 private session again?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

14 [Private session]

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23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I wasn't clear, Mr. Petrovic, are you finished

25 with your cross-examination?

Page 993

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I have finished. Thank you

2 very much. Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic.

4 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Vucicevic:

6 Q. Good morning, Witness C. My name is Dusan Vucicevic and I am

7 counsel for Dragan Kolundzija.

8 I will start first when you testified on Thursday, you were asked

9 which shift was the better shift. You answered not in comparative, you

10 answered in superlative. "For instance, Kole's shift was the best."

11 Didn't you say that?

12 I would expect from you answers basically yes or no, and if there

13 is going to be any need to comment of anything what I say, the Trial

14 Chamber will allow the Prosecutors to ask you additionally so that we can

15 go quickly through this. So did you say this? It's in the record.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly.

17 MS. BALY: Your Honour, I object to the witness being directed by

18 my friend to answer yes or no. In my submission, he should be able to

19 answer every question appropriately. He should not be limited to a yes or

20 no answer.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll deal with the appropriateness of the

22 witness' answers. Proceed.

23 MR. VUCICEVIC:

24 Q. This was direct quotation from the record, Witness C, so I just

25 read it to you. So did you say that?

Page 994

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: What exactly is the question, Mr. Vucicevic?

2 MR. VUCICEVIC: I'm just asking to reaffirm whether he remembers

3 his statement, because I want to get some answers in addition to that.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you say that, Witness C?

5 A. It is possible in that chaos that shift was.

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I move that this part of the answer

7 be stricken as non-responsive. I just read from his testimony verbatim

8 what he said and he is not responding to the question.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness C, the counsel is merely reminding you of

10 something which you said in --

11 MR. VUCICEVIC: On Thursday.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: On Thursday. Was that in examination-in-chief?

13 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour. This was directly what I am

14 reading from the transcript.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, why don't you just proceed --

16 MR. VUCICEVIC: Okay.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- if it's there in the transcript then.

18 MR. VUCICEVIC:

19 Q. Witness C, you were allowed to get out from the -- from your room

20 in the daytime on some shifts; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And on shift, and one of the shift on which Dragan Kolundzija was

23 a shift leader, at some time, you were allowed to spend time outside of

24 the room all day long from 6.00 in the morning to 6.00 in the afternoon

25 when Kolundzija was there; isn't that correct?

Page 995

1 A. For the most part, yes.

2 Q. And you have also indicated that nobody was beaten or tortured on

3 Kole's shift?

4 A. For the most part, yes.

5 Q. And there was a reputation for Kole's shift that the prisoners

6 could sleep well at ease at night because his shift used to lock up the

7 doors; isn't that correct?

8 A. For the most part, yes.

9 Q. So that reputation wouldn't have developed if there were any

10 beatings or torture happening at night on his shift; isn't that correct?

11 A. For the most part when he was present, yes.

12 Q. As a matter of fact, you did not remember in the statements that

13 you have given to AID on June 27th of 2000 and the subsequent statement

14 that you have given to OTP on August 30th of 2000, you have never

15 mentioned that anybody has been beaten on the Kole's shift. That is

16 correct, isn't it?

17 A. For the most part.

18 Q. Witness, I really do appreciate and empathize with you for having

19 gone through your life through such an ordeal but, indeed, facing this

20 Court is an also ordeal for my client, and being a professional man that

21 you are, I ask you to help the Court with precise answers.

22 I ask the Court to instruct the witness to answer the previous

23 question, not mainly because did he or didn't he make a statement to that

24 effect that -- to the previous authorities.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, he did say "for the most part", and that's

Page 996

1 his answer.

2 MR. VUCICEVIC:

3 Q. So, Witness C, you don't remember whether you said in those two

4 statements anything about Kole's shift, do you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So it is your recollection today that when you were questioned in

7 June and in August last year, you didn't say anything about Kole's shift,

8 that's correct?

9 A. Except for the night when the massacre took place.

10 MR. VUCICEVIC: Let me -- if we go into the private session, Your

11 Honour, please?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

13 [Private session]

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15 [Open session]

16 MR. VUCICEVIC:

17 Q. When you were asked the question about the types of water that was

18 available at Keraterm, you said that it was at the beginning, industrial

19 water.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Isn't it true that you do not know with absolute certainty that

22 that is industrial water, that's your -- what you've heard.

23 A. I know it only as I told you here, that it was water from the hose

24 used to wash the WCs. And when we had our meals, there was this hydrant,

25 and that is where we managed to quickly rinse the bowls and perhaps drink

Page 1004

1 some water if we were sufficiently fast.

2 Q. So you didn't drink that water and the other people didn't drink

3 that water. That's correct?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. And -- the prior witnesses, that water has been -- has been used

6 for drinking purposes. However, you have mentioned that that water has

7 caused dysentery. Perhaps you have meant to say that that water had

8 caused diarrhoea, something that you could observe; isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. Dysentery is a medical diagnosis involved medical investigation.

11 You can't say that -- not even a doctor could say just -- strike it. Not

12 a man cannot say any kind of a diarrhoea is a dysentery.

13 A. I saw the consequences, and the cause I can guess it.

14 Q. It was summertime. It was extremely hot. And there are so many

15 other sources that could cause diarrhea as a symptom of an intestinal

16 disease. That's possibility. And one of the -- what common sense implies

17 is that one of the sources of diarrhea could be a food poisoning. I'm not

18 saying there was plenty of food. I'm not saying the food was properly

19 delivered. I'm just merely mentioning that is one of the possibilities.

20 A. It is also possible that the WC was a cause because we had to walk

21 out -- to step over excrement to get to the WC.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues]... inmates were using -- having

23 some vessels, some containers, it was irregular supplies, there were

24 irregular vessels, but it could be that because of the general unsanitary

25 conditions, that came to the contamination of the water that inmates had

Page 1005

1 in their own possessions. That is also a possibility.

2 A. No.

3 Q. I'm not saying that it was the only cause, I'm saying that's one,

4 perhaps one of many that could have caused it?

5 A. Possibly.

6 Q. And it's a summer. There are so many types of diarrhoeas that are

7 caused by so many bacteria and viruses, if you had heard it, because you

8 have had high school education and those things were discussed in those

9 days, if you do know, classical high school in Yugoslavia?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you know, say whether you know. If you don't,

11 say so. Let's move on.

12 MR. VUCICEVIC:

13 Q. Perhaps those things could cause diarrhea?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, I suspect --

15 MR. VUCICEVIC: I just wanted to clear up the points --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is your other hat.

17 MR. VUCICEVIC: I didn't do anything medically here.

18 Q. In your statement on June 27th to AID, but let me go back a little

19 bit here. Were you describing how was that statement taken, where, who

20 was present?

21 A. There was, what shall I call it, an official of that police

22 station or whatever, and they invited me to come and make a statement,

23 rather they invited me.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues]... in Bosnian to the fellow

25 officer to AID who took it in Bosnian, there was no need to have an

Page 1006

1 interpreter. That's correct. The third person was not interpreter.

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. There were no -- the person was not member of the OTP or any other

4 international organisation, so that any other language but Bosnian had to

5 be spoken.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was a written statement made at the end of your interview which

8 you have signed?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You signed that statement at that given time being that that

11 statement was written in Bosnian when you signed it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Having been elected a president, and you know what I am referring

14 to, it was your intent at that time to give all the information that you

15 knew to the investigators, wasn't it?

16 A. In fact, only the information that he was interested in.

17 Q. Did, at any time throughout that interview, an officer who

18 interviewed you, did he ask you whether you were willing to testify before

19 this Honorable Court?

20 A. Possibly.

21 Q. So --

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. So as far as you remember today about event that happened nine

24 months ago, you are not sure whether the question was posed to you, "Are

25 you willing to go The Hague and testify?"

Page 1007

1 A. Possibly, but --

2 Q. At that time, you had made a statement, and now because these are

3 your words and I want to speak them verbatim, so I will read this in

4 B/C/S. I'm citing, [Interpretation] "We then heard that one of the

5 soldiers is saying let them break the glass and the entrance door."

6 [In English] This statement you have also signed on 30th of August

7 in the presence of the OTP investigators who have asked you to more or

8 less ratify this statement as yours; isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did they ask you or -- I'm sorry, did they explain you why there

11 was a need to sign that statement again, because you had it signed before?

12 A. Possibly.

13 Q. If that is possible, do you remember today and could you tell this

14 Honorable Court what is it they tell you on that day why your second

15 signature was necessary? If you can't remember, you can't remember, sir.

16 A. I don't -- no, it doesn't really matter.

17 Q. However, the original didn't have the attestation clause. The

18 original didn't have a statement where you swear to the truthfulness of

19 your statement. Perhaps that is why the officer asked you to resign it

20 after asking you whether the statement that you had given on June 27th is

21 the truth, the whole truth, and that's why you co-signed a statement and

22 put the date, the date when you signed it second time. Because as a

23 matter of fact, that is indicated in your statement that you have made to

24 the OTP.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you say to that?

Page 1008

1 A. Possibly.

2 MR. VUCICEVIC: So --

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. But also in a statement on August 30th which was properly signed

5 and where you have -- I just want to make sure I read from that statement

6 where it says, and I will read it in Bosnian, [Interpretation] "This

7 statement was read out to me in Bosnian and it contains everything that I

8 said according to the best of my recollection and knowledge. I gave this

9 statement of my own free will, and I am aware that it may be used in legal

10 proceedings before the International Criminal Tribunal for the prosecution

11 of persons responsible for serious violations of international law

12 committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia since 1991, and that I

13 may be called to give evidence in public before the Tribunal."

14 This was read out to you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And before that, did you go through the written statement that was

17 made before you, did you read it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you signed it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Which means this statement says, "... and it includes all that I

22 said to the best of my knowledge and recollection."

23 However, in this statement, when do you speak about the 24th of

24 July, you say, "We heard soldiers shouting, 'Break the door. Break the

25 windows.'"

Page 1009

1 [In English] You never mentioned Kole's name in first or the

2 second statement. That is evident from the statements?

3 A. Possibly. I already said that that statement to the investigation

4 documentation agency, that is AID, was an occult statement, that is it was

5 done very quickly --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, allow the witness to finish.

7 A. I said all that I had to say in about 15 minutes time, and the

8 second statement took four days, sir. So that --

9 MR. VUCICEVIC:

10 Q. That's the point that I'm driving at, sir. Because the second

11 statement you had given in four days, and you have not mentioned -- you do

12 not remember that that was Kole who said that because on Thursday when you

13 testified, you suddenly remembered it was Kole. So my question is: Who

14 told you that was Kole who said, "Break the windows"?

15 A. Perhaps it was Kole, but from that direction, we heard it from

16 those soldiers. It could have been Kole.

17 Q. So your testimony from Thursday, now you are reneging on that. So

18 it was Kole or it wasn't Kole.

19 A. No.

20 Q. What is your testimony?

21 A. I think it was Kole.

22 Q. So you think or you do know?

23 A. Well, say it was -- I'm sure, 90 per cent that it was him.

24 Q. How do you conclude that 90 per cent that it was him?

25 A. The sequence of events when Kole came to our dormitory to tell us,

Page 1010

1 "There are soldiers outside. They cannot keep the situation under

2 control. Don't stand up. They'll slay you all." Then he walked away

3 some 20 metres or so from the dormitory and what prevails at that moment

4 are those words of his. For instance, as he deploys these -- as he

5 deploys the soldiers when he shouts "Don't shoot. Don't shoot." When he

6 participates in the positioning of those soldiers, how they should be

7 positioned, where, those are his words. His speech was predominated and

8 one could distinguish it from the background noise of those other

9 soldiers.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues]... about what Kole said in June

11 and in July? You have testified about him indicating "Don't shoot. Don't

12 stand here. Go there." But never you mentioned that was him that said,

13 "Break the windows." And that detail is very important. Because not

14 only did you said not "Break the windows," because you have indicated on

15 20 -- in June and in August, you said "Break the windows and break the

16 doors." So what did Kole, indeed, say and who told you that, sir?

17 A. Among other things I am repeating this. He said what you want to

18 know. So he said, "Break the windows. Break down the door." Because

19 presumably, there was no air in Room 3 and people were suffocating,

20 something like that.

21 Q. Let me just wind this up, this is an important point.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, according to the time--

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. President, please.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have come to the time for the break.

25 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour, if I can have 30 seconds.

Page 1011

1 Q. In your statement on June 27 that you gave to AID, you are quoting

2 Hodzic, Izet, who was your worker whom you recognised two days after the

3 incident of 24th and you said what you heard from him.

4 I'll quote in Bosnian [Interpretation] "He told me that their door

5 was closed and people suddenly began to behave abnormally and started

6 shoving, pushing and beating the detainees -- the detainees began shoving

7 and pushing and fighting.

8 [In English] Did you hear that?

9 A. Quite so, yes. That's it.

10 Q. And also you testified earlier and said that were some Serbian

11 songs there.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You also have heard that there was -- from one of your statements,

14 and please forgive me that I can't quote it, but I'm going to quote the

15 word that stuck in my mind, you said [Interpretation] "Noise was heard

16 from Room 3," to one of the investigators?

17 A. Singing, yes.

18 Q. So there was -- to say that mildly, there was a chaos in that room

19 at that time. I'm not trying to assign the responsibility to anything,

20 I'm just saying what you could hear. At that time it seems there was a

21 chaos for whatever reason. That would be fair to say.

22 A. Well, I'll say what we in Room 1 heard that singing -- was that

23 singing, and after that, later on, from the statement of this witness whom

24 you mentioned, my co-worker, and other detainees who survived Room 3, they

25 claimed that something had been thrown in, some poison or something, and

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Page 1014

1 after that, they lost control over themselves.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic?

3 MR. VUCICEVIC: This would be a good time.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask how much longer will your

5 cross-examination be?

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: One more hour.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: One hour, I see. Yes. Well, we will take the

8 break. And you are reminded, Witness C, not to discuss your evidence with

9 anybody, including members of the Prosecution team. This is not an idle

10 reminder. It is to be taken seriously. We will resume at 2.30.

11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.04 p.m.

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Page 1015

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic? You had given us an estimate of

4 one more hour to conclude your cross-examination.

5 MR. VUCICEVIC: A bit less than an hour. I went over my notes,

6 Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We would like you to try to conclude in a

8 shorter time.

9 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, it should be shorter than an hour.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

11 MR. VUCICEVIC:

12 Q. Witness C, you have testified that on or about July 11th, you were

13 taken out, and just before the beating was to take place, a truck came

14 into the gate; is that correct?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Let me follow it up. You have said that there was a man by the

17 name Tomo that came up at that time. You said it?

18 A. That was the second time I was called out.

19 Q. We are in agreement on that one. Could you describe that man?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Have you seen him that night?

22 A. No.

23 Q. How far away from you was he when he yelled and cursed the

24 soldiers so they ran away? How far away from you was he?

25 A. First of all, he arrived in a van, and this van went along the

Page 1016

1 tarmac moving in the direction of Room 1, and shown us who were in Room 1

2 -- I was in front of it and I was inside, and the guards were outside,

3 but so they were about 30, 40 metres away and I could hear it at that

4 time.

5 Q. You are saying that he was like halfway on pista between the weigh

6 bridge and Room 1?

7 A. Approximately something like that.

8 Q. Were any other prisoners outside who were beaten at that time?

9 A. No. My brother and I were called out first.

10 Q. Who told you that Tomo was chief, or shift leader?

11 A. I heard about that the next day because I was interested in it.

12 It turned out that this man, by appearing, saved my life.

13 Q. Who told you that that was Tomo?

14 A. The inmates who probably knew him, or who may have known the

15 guards who were able to say who it was that actually arrived at that time,

16 who it exactly was.

17 Q. I'm just trying to remind you, because you said in your statement

18 that was given in August of 2000, and also you testified on Thursday in

19 court, that you were accompanied by Witness A at that time; isn't that

20 correct?

21 A. Let me try to explain it. Because it took about 15 minutes for

22 this calling out of my brother and myself to take place, and I, as I said,

23 I told them that I was in number 4, then they went over to check that at

24 the reception office. But the practice was, when an inmate refused to

25 respond, then the room leader would be called upon to find him and, if

Page 1017

1 that didn't help, then they would take the first ten, 15 inmates.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] if you remember, wasn't that

3 Witness A who knew all the guards, was it perhaps him who told you that

4 was Tomo, at that moment, because he could have recognised him, that him

5 having been a shift leader, either by sight or by voice? If you remember,

6 was it Witness A who told you that, right at that moment?

7 A. He was under obligation to bring me over here, but I don't know

8 whether he said that or whether the next day I heard it from someone else,

9 either an inmate or a guard.

10 Q. So since that was --

11 A. For me, it did not matter very much.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, I neglected to say that I had been

13 asked by the interpreters to let you know that you are not observing the

14 pause between question and answer, and that creates difficulties for the

15 interpreters.

16 Witness C, the same applies to you, particularly since you both

17 speak the same language. The temptation is to move very quickly but bear

18 in mind the interpreters.

19 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I would apologise on behalf of both

20 participants in this colloquy. Thank you.

21 Q. But one thing that we can agree for sure that it wasn't Kole's

22 shift because it was Tomo's. That is correct, isn't it?

23 A. Yes, we can.

24 Q. Have you ever inquired either at that time or later when was Tomo

25 shift leader, in what period of time?

Page 1018

1 A. Very rarely.

2 Q. So is your testimony that Tomo was coming on and off as a shift

3 leader or he was there for a certain period of time and then didn't appear

4 anymore?

5 A. Let's say the latter version. In my view, he was there for a very

6 brief period of time, not frequently.

7 Q. So he was there for a week or two after you were arrested and then

8 he stopped coming; isn't that your testimony?

9 A. I don't know exactly whether it was one week or two weeks after my

10 arrival there, but I remember him very well on that night.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues]... coming regularly as a shift

12 leader. Is that your conclusion?

13 A. No that's not what I said, no.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues]... could you help us out --

15 A. Very infrequently. For instance, I heard about him that night and

16 I may have seen him another couple of times or three times.

17 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, I have a Defence exhibit that I

18 would like the usher to distribute.

19 Your Honours, those are the copies of the originals, or at least

20 they purport to be the originals here which I'd like the usher to put on

21 ELMO and perhaps, you know, to give them to you after I address the

22 witness so you can view the original because those are the best copies

23 that we could get being that this is an old document.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, some of them are barely legible.

25 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour, that's why you will have an

Page 1019

1 opportunity to view the originals. Couldn't do any better.

2 JUDGE MAY: What is this anyway? What is this supposed to be?

3 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, this is a daily schedule of personnel

4 of police station Prijedor number 2 for June 5th, 1992 and for June 6th,

5 1992. And if you would respectfully turn to the last page --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Of which one?

7 MR. VUCICEVIC: Of both of them, if you look at the last page.

8 You will see on the top, there is Roman three and underneath in the first

9 column to the left there is security Keraterm 07 to 07. And the other one

10 has the same markings on the page 3. And on the original, I am not quite

11 sure whether you can see, there is a signature on the bottom of the page

12 and says commandeer, that means commanding officer, Knezevic, Zivko. And

13 I would like to show that to the witness being that he is familiar with

14 the record-keeping procedures in his background, he can testify about this

15 document.

16 It is going to conclusively shed some light on how many shifts on

17 those two days. I was fortunate to find these originals, and I would like

18 to present it to you, Your Honours.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, although the document is by and

21 large a listing with names, there are other parts of it which should be

22 translated for us to make sense of it. For example, what are the

23 headings? They are not translated.

24 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, in due course I will tender the

25 translation of those documents, but for the purpose of getting information

Page 1020

1 and testimony of this witness, he can read those headings and they will be

2 translated to you.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead, and let's see how far we can get with

4 it. Go ahead, Mr. Vucicevic. The witness has the documents.

5 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I would just like to give a minute or

6 two for the witness to look over the originals.

7 Q. Witness C, I would like to kindly direct your attention at the

8 page number 3 of those documents. Could you take a look at the headlines

9 and also could you take a look at the signature at the bottom and the

10 signature itself?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, he has seen them. What's your question?

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: Could you move that document further down on the

13 ELMO so we can see the top of the document? Could you put the first page

14 of that document on the ELMO, please? Mr. Usher, could you put the

15 originals on the ELMO, because we can't see anything from there. That's

16 why I gave you the originals.

17 Q. Witness C, could you please read what is being -- what is written

18 on that first heading?

19 A. You mean the duty service --

20 Q. [Previous translation continues]

21 A. -- work schedule, and then something really illegible, RSM or

22 something, Prijedor, Roman numeral 2 for 6 June, 1992.

23 Q. And looking at that document, the original, is that the type of a

24 paper that was used in 1992 in the administrative services in Prijedor?

25 Was that type of paper used?

Page 1021

1 A. I really don't know. I have no idea.

2 Q. Could you show us the last page of the same document, Mr. Usher?

3 On the left-hand side it says obisbedzena Keraterm from 07 to 07; is that

4 correct?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Obisbedzena means Keraterm, by the way.

6 A. Yes, that is what it says.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues] the names that you see in the

8 left-hand column?

9 A. Yes. Tomo Prodan, Ignjatije Lajic, Zoran Grahovic, Lazo

10 Gavrilovic, Goran Koralija, Slavisa Davidovic, Drasko Sobot, Mladen

11 Radisid, Miroslav Vujicid, Miljan Sanovic, Zoran Zigic, Nebojsa Banovic.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] part of the column, there is

13 another column of names which reads Slobodni, doesn't it?

14 THE INTERPRETER: "Slobodni" means off duty.

15 Q. Could you read those names?

16 A. Damir Dosen, Drasko Dosen, Mladen Madjar, Drasko Bucalo, Predrag

17 Cicic, Mladen Pilipovic, Drasko Jeric, Dragan Kolundzija, Dragan Zurnic,

18 Radomir Radakovic, Drasko Stakic. And sick leave and so on.

19 Q. Could you please show us the signature on the same page? Sir,

20 could you please read what is being typed there in that signature

21 section?

22 A. What it states is, "Commanding Officer Zivko Knezevic."

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] seem to have been written in ink

24 on that original?

25 A. That's what it looks like.

Page 1022

1 Q. Let's assume now that this document was, as it purports to be, a

2 schedule of -- a daily schedule of the police station number 2, signed by

3 the commander Knezevic Zivko. Does it recall -- does it now jog your

4 memory that at the beginning there were only two shifts, doesn't it?

5 A. No, it doesn't mean anything to me.

6 Q. So does it mean that on that day, on 6th of June, there were two

7 shifts?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: He said no.

9 A. How would I know?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: He has already said no, so I don't think it's

11 proper to follow up with a question which assumes that he answered

12 otherwise.

13 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I do apologise, but I might have not

14 heard correctly. I asked at that time and then the following question was

15 on that day, but that's -- if you would permit me to ask him specifically

16 for this given day.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly?

18 MS. BALY: Your Honour, the document speaks for itself and I

19 object to this witness being asked questions about the meaning of this

20 document.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's your specific question?

22 MR. VUCICEVIC: That document indicates that there were two shifts

23 on the given day, and to ask the witness, does he agree that at the

24 beginning there were two shifts working from 7.00 a.m. to 7.00 a.m. the

25 other day, 24 hour a day.

Page 1023

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: But I've already indicated I think your premise

2 is wrong because the witness has already answered that to him the document

3 does not indicate that there were two shifts. So I'm going to disallow

4 the question. Move to another question.

5 MR. VUCICEVIC: Mr. Usher, could you pull down the document so I

6 can see those?

7 Q. When you read the first line on the left-hand side, Witness C,

8 doesn't it say security detail Keraterm 07 to 07?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In your previous testimony you have testified that at the

11 beginning there were three shifts that worked from 7.00 to 15 hours then

12 from 15 to 21 or 22 and then another one from 22 to -- does this document

13 in any way change your testimony that, at the beginning, there were two

14 shifts that worked 24 hours and not three shifts that worked eight hours

15 apart?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you in a position to answer that question?

17 A. I do believe that three shifts existed, as I stated previously.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, this is a document which no doubt

19 may be of use to your case. When you come to present your case, you will

20 be in a position to call witnesses.

21 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I am just merely using

22 this document to refresh the witness' memory, and if I may have another

23 question, because the witness has testified that Mr. Tomo Prodan was a

24 shift commander and -- strike it -- shift leader. And here it seems that

25 there is a name of Tomo Prodan with the names of the other people.

Page 1024

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have an objection from Ms. Baly. Yes.

2 MS. BALY: Your Honour, I object to the question on the basis that

3 it can't possibly assist the witness' recollection given that the witness

4 wasn't arrested until the 12th of June. So when he refers to "the

5 beginning", it's a different time frame. This document is dated the 6th

6 of June.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are in agreement with Ms. Baly. I think the

8 proper course for you is to produce this document in your case. Please

9 proceed.

10 MR. VUCICEVIC: Mr. Usher, could you please collect these

11 documents, and if I could have back the originals.

12 Q. Witness C, you have testified that there were three shifts in the

13 collection centre, as you called it?

14 A. The camp.

15 Q. Was Tomo one of the commanders at the time when you arrived to the

16 collection centre?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So it is your testimony that Tomo was named or appointed a shift

19 leader at some time after you were confined?

20 A. I do not know. I only know how many times I saw him.

21 Q. Do you remember whether Tomo worked as the shift leader any time

22 while there were three shifts which worked 8 hours?

23 A. I think not. Not in the beginning.

24 Q. So when was it that the timing of the shifts were changed from 8

25 hours to 12 hours?

Page 1025

1 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. How could I know?

2 Q. At the time that you were beaten, were they two shifts or three

3 shifts?

4 A. Three, I think.

5 Q. I will proceed with the -- when you were taken out and beaten for

6 the first time, how many men were beating you?

7 A. I believe there were five of them, but how many of them beat me, I

8 don't know because I faced the wall.

9 Q. His Honour Judge Robinson asked you what they were beating you

10 with, you answered with a police baton. How many batons were there that

11 you were beaten with?

12 A. Well, I suppose not many, perhaps one or two, and also their army

13 boots.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues]... would you tell us on what part

15 of the body they were hitting you?

16 A. On the back and kidney area.

17 Q. Did they hit you a single time over your head?

18 A. I think not.

19 Q. If you received 50 blows with that baton over your head, do you

20 think you would have survived?

21 A. I don't think so, no. At that time I was already a seasoned

22 inmate, no.

23 Q. But perhaps you didn't receive that many over your back. You

24 received less than 50 blows over your back, did you?

25 A. Well, they counted traces afterwards, because there were signs,

Page 1026

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Page 1028

1 there were bruises, 20, 30 times, perhaps.

2 Q. But I'm particularly interested about these blows over the head.

3 If you, for example, received five blows over the back of your head, do

4 you think you would have survived it?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly.

6 MS. BALY: The witness cannot possibly answer that question.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you should proceed to another question.

8 MR. VUCICEVIC:

9 Q. Have you seen anybody hit with a police baton over his head, and I

10 ask you: Have you seen?

11 A. Well, perhaps, for instance, when we would go to have lunch and

12 they made us hurry. On such occasions one could hear blows on the head or

13 back. One could see that.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues]... the man who was hit over his

15 head with the police baton?

16 A. I've already explained that. It depended on how long that man had

17 been in the camp. If he was new, then he still had enough strength and

18 then he would have survived. If he had spent some time in the camp, then

19 his strength would have already been sapped, and I suppose he would have

20 fallen down. I don't know.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues]... the power takeover in

22 municipality of Prijedor on 30th of April, however, in your statement, you

23 have -- that you have given to the OTP on August 30th of 2000, you said,

24 "In March and April," I am going to cite your exact words in Bosnian

25 [Interpretation] "In March and April I did not come to work regularly."

Page 1029

1 [Previous translation continues] [In English] ... power takeover before

2 the checkpoints were set, why you didn't go to work in March and April?

3 A. Because as early as the beginning of the year, as I have already

4 said, beginning of 1992, there was this unwritten rule that Muslims and

5 Croats who did not put on the military uniform, which I suppose was to

6 mean a tacit sign -- indication of loyalty, that such people could not

7 come to the compound of the company.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues]... by Mr. Petrovic earlier today

9 you said that nobody was allowed to come to work?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues]... didn't have them yourselves.

12 Those are your exact words; is that correct?

13 A. Precisely.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and the counsel please not

15 speak at the same time.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic and Witness C, the interpreters are

17 asking you not to speak at the same time. Please observe the pause.

18 MR. VUCICEVIC:

19 Q. Witness C, I'm going to read now from the statement of a gentleman

20 who was incarcerated at Keraterm at first, and later in Omarska. And in

21 the same kind of a sworn statement that you have given on 23rd of

22 September of 1994, he had said the following: "On 22nd of May I travelled

23 to my work at Celpak by bus as usual at 6.00. Everything seemed to be

24 normal, although it was not very easy to travel by bus. There were not

25 many buses running on schedule, and I had to cross three Serb checkpoints

Page 1030

1 from the entrance from my village to Prijedor. There were also guards at

2 the entrance to Celpak.

3 On 22nd of May I was the only one to show up at my work centre. I

4 expected two other colleagues, one Muslim and one Serb, who failed to show

5 up. I learned the Serb went to the front line in Bosnia, and I don't know

6 what happened to the Muslim. I could not do anything of my own, but I

7 stayed at work. No trains came to Celpak that day so at about 1800, I

8 departed work to the bus stop to catch the 1900 bus to Ljubija."

9 So isn't it true that at least one man travelled, a Muslim from a

10 village outside of Prijedor, who was daily catching a train or a bus,

11 managed to go every day to his post. We can agree on that, could we?

12 A. I really don't know. All I do know, since it is a different

13 company, I know how things were in my company in the iron ore mine where

14 my brothers worked and very many relatives, some 50 relations of mine

15 worked there, and could not go to work just as I couldn't.

16 Q. So you testified earlier you were only referring to your firm but

17 not on all firms in Prijedor; is that correct?

18 A. I can speak about my company, of course, and as for the others,

19 from conversations with relatives, with friends, from what we could hear,

20 I heard from them that they could not go. But there are always

21 exceptions, you know. There are 3.000 workers and one manages to go; it's

22 quite possible.

23 Q. This man indeed said in a sworn statement, there was two of them,

24 wasn't it?

25 A. Maybe, but let me explain.

Page 1031

1 Q. I only asked you whether he said whether there was another one

2 besides him, in this statement that we just read. Well, you said earlier

3 that your position was -- had a good measure of a political position,

4 because it required membership in a party to obtain that position; isn't

5 that true?

6 A. No.

7 Q. But it was a management position, you were not a -- wasn't it?

8 That we can agree on?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I didn't hear your answer. Was it management position or not?

11 A. Yes, yes, it was. Persons with special powers, that is with

12 special authority.

13 Q. You testified that you were losing the confidence of your

14 authorities in May and April because you also said that you were

15 officially dismissed after the power takeover.

16 A. In late 1991 and in early 1992, 99 per cent of the Muslim and

17 Croat population did not go to work. Whether they were -- tacitly had a

18 paid leave or a non-paid leave, but be that as it may, nobody called us to

19 go to work, and we were made to understand that we were not to come to

20 work unless we wore uniforms.

21 Q. Let me see whether we can understand that in the context of

22 mobilisation that had happened in Prijedor area. Was there a mobilisation

23 of all military-able men in September of 1991?

24 A. Yes, for the front in Croatia.

25 Q. Majority of military-able men who opposed -- who opposed military

Page 1032

1 solution in Croatia refused to respond to the call-up?

2 A. You could say so.

3 Q. Could you tell the Court what was the percentage of the Prijedor

4 military-able men that refused the call-up? Isn't it fair to say that

5 most of the men who refused were of non-Serb ethnicity?

6 A. Could you repeat the question or --

7 Q. I will read back this question from the transcript. Could you

8 tell the Court what was the percentage of the Prijedor militarily-able men

9 that refused the call-up? Isn't it fair to say that the most of men who

10 refused were of non-Serb ethnicity?

11 A. You could say so.

12 Q. The Prijedor had a vibrant economy before the war, didn't it?

13 A. Well, yes.

14 Q. And in order to sustain a war effort, a workforce is needed for

15 any economy, wasn't it?

16 A. Let's take it that it is so.

17 Q. So one would expect that men who do not wish to put on their

18 military uniform would be gainfully and usefully employed in the economy.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a comment, Mr. Vucicevic.

20 MR. VUCICEVIC: I'll take it back, Your Honour.

21 Q. You said that situation was different in March and April. Does

22 that mean that Serb soldiers that came back from Croatia took up their

23 position in the economy so they were not needed in the military anymore?

24 A. I don't think so. Nobody gave a thought to business at the time.

25 All they thought about was war.

Page 1033

1 Q. There was a war indeed in Croatia at that time, wasn't there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you talk to any Serb to ask them what war did they think

4 about? Because you just testified they were thinking about the war.

5 A. At that time, I think that the war had already started in Bosnia

6 at that time. I don't remember exactly but I think that in March, in

7 April, things were already stirring.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues].

9 A. Ravno? Ravno is in Bosnia, I suppose, somewhere in the south.

10 Q. You mentioned about military activities had started and they

11 started in March, so I would appreciate if you could place that location a

12 little bit more with precision for the court to follow.

13 A. What do you mean, the location?

14 Q. Could you tell us is it close to Ravno? On what road is it

15 located? Is it close to any borders with any other republics?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. And the --

18 A. I suppose it is near the border with Croatia down in the south.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] work because there was feeling

20 that the war might erupt, and the first -- you just described the first

21 activity and it seems you don't know anything about it. Isn't that true?

22 A. How can I know what went on in Croatia, and other towns? I know

23 about Prijedor.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, I think you have now exceeded the

25 time limit which you yourself had set. Could you bring the

Page 1034

1 cross-examination to a close, please?

2 MR. VUCICEVIC:

3 Q. This is a picture of the view at Keraterm building with the rooms

4 1 and 2 in forefront, isn't it?

5 A. It is, and Room 3 I think you can see also.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues], isn't it? Okay. Could you

7 indicate with the marker there where was Dragan Kolundzija when you heard

8 him speaking those words that you already testified about?

9 A. Excuse me, what words do you mean?

10 Q. When he came up and when he talked to you at first.

11 A. Oh, well, that was -- that was in the doorway, and the door of the

12 dormitory.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] the very door of your Room number

14 1? How long did he stay there?

15 A. Well, then very briefly just to tell me --

16 Q. How many times during that night did you see in front of the door

17 of Room 1?

18 A. In front of the door when this was all that he told us. I saw him

19 only once at the door, except that later on I heard his voice when he was

20 some 15 metres away from the entrance into the dormitory.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues]... recognition of his voice that

22 you testify about interest those that you have seen him in front of the

23 door or those that he was about 15 metres away; isn't that correct?

24 A. Well, he moved about in front of the dormitory. Sometimes he

25 would draw nearer, sometimes he would go further away.

Page 1035

1 Q. How far back was he going? You said you've seen him at 15 metres,

2 was he going 20, 25, 30?

3 A. I don't know exactly, but always close enough so that we could

4 hear him.

5 Q. You testified that he was quarreling with soldiers and that he

6 told them, "Not here. There," to that effect. Those were his words.

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. So isn't it true that the soldiers that he was talking to, those

9 were soldiers that were behind his back. Where he was standing here, 15,

10 20, 30 metres on the pista, there were the soldiers that could hear him

11 that were behind his back?

12 A. Well, say behind his back or rather to the side because they were

13 taking up positions in the semicircle or perhaps they were on the level

14 with him because they all moved around.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues]... you testified about it?

16 A. True.

17 Q. So if you heard it, Kolundzija must have heard clicking of those

18 arms behind his back too; that's fair to say?

19 A. Of course.

20 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you. I have no more questions, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Vucicevic. Any re-examination,

23 Ms. Baly?

24 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Re-examined by Ms. Baly:

Page 1036

1 Q. Just for the record, Witness C, the last series of questions that

2 you were referred to by Mr. Vucicevic referred to the Room 3 massacre;

3 correct?

4 A. I assume, yes.

5 Q. You've referred in your evidence to a person by the name of Tomo

6 who you said was a shift leader who appeared infrequently in the camp. Do

7 you know the full name of the person Tomo?

8 A. I don't know. I saw on this list what it is, but I had not known

9 it. I only know that he was the shift leader on the night when I was

10 called out, and as for the rest, I saw him very infrequently.

11 Q. You were asked some questions by Mr. Vucicevic regarding Kole's

12 shift and the effect of your answers was for the most part that beatings

13 did not take place on Kole's shift. Can you explain, please, what you

14 meant by the phrase "for the most part"?

15 A. Because I did not know Kole at that time, I could not pay special

16 attention to that shift. However, it could happen that when Kole was not

17 around, that the guards would call someone out without his knowledge, and

18 do some harm in the camp.

19 Q. Witness C, you were asked a number of questions regarding the

20 searchlights and, in particular, when they were placed in the position

21 that you've drawn them on the sketch. You said that was some 20 days

22 before the camp closed. My question is: Were the searchlights placed

23 there before or after the Room 3 massacre?

24 A. Before, before. In retrospect I think that that was the only

25 reason why they were placed there.

Page 1037

1 Q. Mr. Petrovic asked you some questions and you referred to persons

2 by the name of Banovic or the Banovics. Who were they?

3 A. I knew them by sight from the town. They were nice guys.

4 Unfortunately in Keraterm they were terrible, especially the one whom we

5 called Cupo. He was quite a bloodthirsty one.

6 Q. How many Banovics were there?

7 A. There were two, and I think that they were twins. The ones that I

8 knew.

9 Q. You referred to one as Cupo, do you know the full name of that

10 person?

11 A. Nenad, I think, or something like that, but his nickname was Cupo.

12 Q. And how, Witness C, did Cupo behave in the camp?

13 A. Regardless of whether it was day or night, he would call out camp

14 inmates and ask for money. He exclusively asked for money. He would give

15 us a deadline, say 10 minutes to collect, I don't know, a certain amount

16 of money, or he would put -- he could designate a person who would collect

17 the money, and if the money was not collected, we would suffer. Either

18 the person who was tasked with it or he would come into the room.

19 For instance, if we were -- if there was a lunch to be served, he

20 would give us a minute for 30 of us to finish lunch. And within a minute,

21 they can barely ladle out the meal, and we had to go back. I know on one

22 occasion I happened to pass by on the way to the toilet when he ordered an

23 inmate to find him 100 marks. He did not manage to find it, and he

24 ordered him to put his hand against the wall and he broke his lower arm

25 with the baseball bat.

Page 1038

1 Q. On whose shift did he work?

2 A. I think he was in Kajin's shift.

3 Q. And you have referred to another person who was his twin. Do you

4 know what his full name was?

5 A. I don't know, but the other brother was much, much better, at

6 least from my point of view. I think he was much better. I think that

7 during the day he did not take such a lead in these things as the other

8 one, from what I could observe.

9 Q. How were you able to distinguish the two brothers from each other?

10 A. The very nickname, I think, describes it. One had a shorter hair

11 and was more solid, if I can put it that way. In other words, he was not

12 very aggressive.

13 Q. Which one was that?

14 A. The one with the longer hair whom we called Cupo. He was

15 terrible.

16 Q. You were asked some questions about the water that you've labelled

17 "industrial water" that the inmates drank. Did that water have any

18 particular taste?

19 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. At that moment we just needed to

20 drink any water, regardless of what it smelled or tasted like. If you did

21 not take water for two or three days, any water is sweet. We were eager

22 to have any kind of water to drink.

23 Q. And finally, Witness C, it was put to you by Mr. Greaves that life

24 continued as normal after the takeover, and you said, "No, no, it was

25 normal for Serb people but not for others." Firstly, who do you mean by

Page 1039

1 "others"?

2 A. At that time, along with my brothers, I had to sign off on a paper

3 declaring that I was leaving all of my property behind because in the

4 camp, and after the camp, they were trying to convince us that we could no

5 longer live there together.

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, objection. The answer is not

7 responsive. The question was what had happened after the takeover. The

8 witness is talking what happened after he was released from the camp.

9 Three months' difference.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Could you answer the question more

11 specifically, Witness C?

12 A. Could you please clarify it for me?

13 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Witness, the answer you gave was in response to a question by

15 Mr. Greaves that life continued as normal after the takeover of Prijedor

16 and you said, "No, no. It was normal for Serb people but not for

17 others." The question I asked is, who do you mean by "others"?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Specifically, I think you mean what ethnic groups

19 are comprised in the "others"?

20 A. Oh, yes, that is clear. That would have meant for Croats and

21 Muslims there was hell, and for the Serbs life continued as they chose

22 it.

23 MS. BALY:

24 Q. Apart from the situation with employment which you've already

25 described, how exactly was life not normal, or hell, as you've described

Page 1040

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Page 1041

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Page 1042

1 it?

2 A. Listen, when -- after the camp, I expected them to come for me

3 every night. In other words, I did not dare sleep in my own house at that

4 time. I slept in the garage. The overall situation -- the overall

5 attitude towards the non-Serb population was such that any uniformed

6 soldier could knock on my door, take us out, mistreat us, rob us, and in

7 the end, kill us, without any liability. The life of non-Serb population

8 was worth nothing.

9 MS. BALY: Those are my questions, thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Baly.

11 Witness C, that concludes your evidence and you are released.

12 We will take the adjournment now, until 4.00.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis, you are going to take the next

17 witness?

18 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, I am, Your Honour. And just for the record and

19 to refresh the Bench's memory, this is one of the witnesses who was

20 previously granted both protective measures, a pseudonym and facial

21 distortion, in the December 22nd, 2000 order of the Chamber. So we simply

22 just need to re-designate the pseudonym under which he was allowed to

23 testify, but he is one of the ones already granted the facial distortion

24 measures.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

Page 1043

1 MR. MUNDIS: And also while the usher is retrieving the witness, I

2 would ask that the first four or five questions, I would respectfully

3 request that we go into private session for those.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Pseudonym for the next witness will be Witness D.

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, before the witness comes in, I would

7 object to the part of the testimony of this witness when he is transferred

8 to Omarska and whatever happened while he was at Omarska, because we have

9 in his proffer here from paragraph 30 thereon, so --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: From paragraph?

11 MR. VUCICEVIC: Paragraph 30 and everything from paragraph 31

12 until the end I object to. First 30 paragraphs, I have no objection to.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: No doubt you can make that point. I said you can

15 make that point when we get to that. Are you objecting to the evidence

16 being led at all or are you objecting to counsel leading the witness in

17 that?

18 MR. VUCICEVIC: No. I object to any evidence --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any evidence at all.

20 MR. VUCICEVIC: -- entering what had happened when he was

21 transferred to Omarska.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can make that point when we reach there.

23 Yes, let the witness make the declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 1044

1 WITNESS: WITNESS D

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

4 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

5 Q. Witness, we are currently in private session which means that the

6 questions that I'm going to ask will not --

7 THE REGISTRAR: We are still in open session.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you want to go in private session?

9 MR. MUNDIS: For the first few questions, please.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we are now in private session.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1045

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 MR. MUNDIS:

4 Q. Witness, did you do compulsory service in the JNA and if so, can

5 you please tell us the years and places where you served?

6 A. Yes. In 1983-84, first in Ljubijana and then in Sordorica [phoen]

7 in the Republic of Serbia.

8 Q. Witness, prior to the war, immediately prior to the war, what was

9 your employment?

10 A. I worked for the central workshop of the iron ore mine in Ljubija.

11 Q. Were you a member of the SDA and, if so, how actively did you

12 participate in the SDA?

13 A. Yes, I was a member.

14 Q. Did you actively participate as a member of the SDA?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Witness, would you characterise your family as being one that was

17 particularly religious and, if so, what religion did your family practice?

18 A. We are Muslims. We are believers. We had no brush with the law.

19 No one of us has a criminal record. We've never caused any trouble.

20 Q. Witness, I would like to draw your attention to early 1992. Did

21 there come a time that you joined the police reserve in Prijedor?

22 A. Yes, or rather in Ljubija.

23 Q. For the record, can you tell us how far Ljubija is from the town

24 of Prijedor?

25 A. 10 maybe 11 kilometres.

Page 1046

1 Q. Can you describe for us the circumstances surrounding your joining

2 the reserve police force?

3 A. Active policeman, Rade Zekan, came to my place one day and asked

4 me, because they were short of staff in the police station and that I had

5 not a criminal record and my conduct was exemplary, and he asked me if I

6 wanted to join them. And if yes, then I should report to the chief of the

7 police station in Ljubija and that is what I did.

8 Q. Do you recall approximately what date you were approached to join

9 the reserve police force?

10 A. Towards the very end of [redacted]1992.

11 Q. Were you issued any special type of equipment once you joined the

12 reserve police force?

13 A. When I reported to the chief of the police station in Ljubija,

14 after a short interview, I was issued with an automatic rifle and 150

15 bullets and sent to Prijedor to get my uniform, and that is what I did.

16 Q. What type of special training, if any, did you receive as part of

17 the being a member of the reserve police force?

18 A. I had no training apart from repeating exercises concerning the

19 manipulation of the automatic rifle.

20 Q. And was this training just more or less a follow on to the type of

21 training you had received in the JNA?

22 A. Yes. That's right. We more or less repeated the same thing.

23 Q. Witness, can you briefly describe the relationship between the

24 reserve police force and the active police force in opstina Prijedor?

25 A. Well, those were all normal circumstances. Before the war we came

Page 1047

1 from all sides, from all ethnic groups. At that time, at the time when I

2 joined the reserve police force, the relations were, let me say, normal.

3 Q. Do you recall specifically the date or time frame when the war, as

4 you put it, came to Prijedor?

5 A. The proper war, or rather the beginning of the war, perhaps I

6 could say it was the time of the takeover of power in Prijedor, and that

7 was in late April, 1992.

8 Q. Now, what was your first date as a reserve police officer in

9 Prijedor?

10 A. The [redacted], afternoon.

11 Q. And that was the year 1992?

12 A. That's right.

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted].

18 Q. Did he, in fact, arrive at your house that day?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did the two of you then go somewhere together? And if so, where?

21 A. Yes. He came and said that Serbs, his fellow workers, sometime

22 after midnight, had pointed their weapons at him and said to him, "Sorry,

23 you have to go home. Serbs are now taking over the power, and only Serbs

24 can stay on in the police." Then we went together to the police station

25 in Ljubija and there we talked with people who told us -- or rather the

Page 1048

1 chief there, who told us that he did not have any instructions as to what

2 we were to do, that we should go home and to behave as previously agreed,

3 which meant that I was to take on my shift when it was due except that

4 [redacted] and other policemen who had arrived and who had been removed

5 from work in a similar way were assigned to the police station in Ljubija

6 until further notice.

7 Q. You mentioned other policemen. Was there -- how many other

8 policemen were in the same situation that you mentioned, that you referred

9 to?

10 A. [redacted] know his first name,

11 can't remember it. And there were [redacted] more, I believe, that came

12 from Brdo, whom I did not know before.

13 Q. I believe you mentioned [redacted]. Do you know that person's

14 first name and that person's ethnicity?

15 A. Yes, [redacted], a Croat from the neighbouring locality of

16 Kaljevo [phoen].

17 Q. And after you had this conversation, did you then return home?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did there come a time either that day or shortly thereafter that a

20 group, a large group of refugees began arriving in Ljubija?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you please describe the circumstances surrounding the arrival

23 of these refugees, please?

24 A. Those were the days in early May and from the neighbourhood

25 municipality, Bosanski Novi, from the village of Agici, refugees began to

Page 1049

1 arrive, first in small groups, and warned us that a column of refugees was

2 on the way and that they would arrive during the night.

3 Q. When you first saw these refugees, where were you and what were

4 you doing?

5 A. I was on a regular shift at the railway station checkpoint, and I

6 saw a column of cars with white towels on them, and at first I thought

7 that was a wedding party. And I recognised some people in those cars, and

8 they told me that they had been attacked, that they had to leave their

9 homes, and that they wanted to get through to their families in Prijedor.

10 I called the chief of the police station, Byekic, and he escorted them on

11 towards Prijedor.

12 Q. Witness, you indicated that you were on a regular shift. Was that

13 a regular shift as a reserve police officer on that day?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in relation to Ljubija, can you briefly tell the Court where

16 Bosanski Novi is located and specifically the village of Agici?

17 A. Well, depends which direction you take. If you take the normal

18 road from Prijedor to Bosanski Novi, then before Bosanski Novi, a few

19 kilometres before it, across the river Japra, there is a road which leads

20 to Agici, and if you look from Ljubija across Miska Glava, Sulko [phoen]

21 Miska Glava, there is another road to the same village.

22 Q. Do you recall approximately how many refugees you saw on that

23 day?

24 A. I cannot give you the exact number. I know there were very many.

25 Some were in cars, some in tractors, some horse-carts and the next day,

Page 1050

1 two more buses arrived. There weren't very many of them, but I wouldn't

2 know how many exactly.

3 Q. Did some of these refugees temporarily stay in the Ljubija area?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recall approximately how many stayed in Ljubija and where

6 did they physically stay when they were in the village?

7 A. Some were accommodated in houses with their relations and also,

8 many other people took them in even if they did not know them before, and

9 a group was also put up in the elementary school in Ljubija.

10 Q. Did some of these refugees stay in your home?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Witness, I'd like to turn your attention to the village and area

13 of Hambarine. In relation to Ljubija, how far is it from Ljubija to

14 Hambarine?

15 A. Six, maybe seven kilometres.

16 Q. Did there come a time when, to your knowledge, an ultimatum was

17 issued to the residents of Hambarine?

18 A. I did not hear the ultimatum personally. I heard about it from

19 others. And what I know in relation to Hambarine is that while I was on

20 duty with [redacted]I heard on the radio the conversation roughly which

21 ran roughly like this: "We will meet in front of the old hotel, we are

22 going to Ljubija to reconnoitre the situation."

23 Q. Again, Witness, when you refer to being on duty and hearing things

24 on the radio, would that be during the course of your serving as a reserve

25 police officer and was the radio that you referred to the police radio?

Page 1051

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you recall the approximate date when you heard this coming in

3 on the radio?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What happened after you heard this information coming over the

6 police radio?

7 A. A short while after that, one could hear -- I don't know what to

8 call it -- one could hear cries for help on the radio station. "There is

9 gunfire below Hambarine. There are some wounded. Please send an

10 ambulance."

11 Q. Did you hear any sounds that sounded like any -- like a military

12 conflict of any kind?

13 A. Not then, but a few hours later, one could hear four detonations

14 from the direction of Hambarine.

15 Q. What, if anything, did you do after you heard these detonations?

16 A. I reported to the Donja Ljubija Crisis Staff. Before that I

17 called the police station, but nobody answered so I told them what had

18 happened.

19 Q. And what did you do after you made these reports?

20 A. I stayed there until the end of my shift. A car then came and

21 took us to the neighbouring checkpoint which is up to a kilometre away,

22 and I stayed there for a while. Naturally, another shift took over from

23 me.

24 Q. Do you know if an ultimatum of any kind was issued to the

25 residents of Hambarine and, if so, what were the terms of the ultimatum?

Page 1052

1 A. When I got to that other checkpoint, after quite a long while, a

2 few hours later, Bjekic, the chief of the police came and told me to go to

3 the school, that the school was full of refugees, and that I should stay

4 there until they calmed down. And I went to the school. The school was

5 full of women and children of young and old from the area of Hambarine and

6 even from Donja Ljubija. Those houses which are nearer to Hambarine, and

7 they told me what had happened below Hambarine and how they had been

8 issued with the ultimatum that by noon the next day, they should deliver

9 the policemen, Aziz, and some others. I can't recall their names.

10 Q. Do you recall if the ultimatum also dealt with weapons of any

11 kind?

12 A. Yes, weapons too.

13 Q. What do you remember happening the following day in Hambarine?

14 A. The next day at 12.00 sharp, the fire brigade centre in Donja

15 Ljubija sounded a siren and shortly after that, the shelling started. It

16 went on for quite some time.

17 Q. Do you recall where the shells were being directed, that is, where

18 were the shells hitting?

19 A. I could not see that, I could only hear it.

20 Q. And what exactly do you recall hearing?

21 A. Detonations.

22 Q. For approximately how long did these detonations occur?

23 A. A long time. Well into the night, perhaps even longer.

24 Q. Do you recall immediately before the war approximately how many

25 people lived in Hambarine?

Page 1053

1 A. No.

2 Q. After the shelling stopped, where did you go?

3 A. Home.

4 Q. Can you describe -- around the same time, can you describe the

5 situation in the Gornja Ljubija police station, what was happening there?

6 A. Yes. One evening or rather late afternoon, a car came to take us,

7 the reserve strength of Donja Ljubija, to take us to the police station

8 for a briefing. When we arrived there, we found there policemen from

9 other areas of Ljubija, of course, and deputy chief of the police station,

10 the commissar, an active-duty policeman, Bentic, and they requested a few

11 minutes to have a good cry.

12 Then they told us that the time had come for us to part our ways,

13 because Muslims and Croats could not stay in the station, that Serbs were

14 taking over the station, and he, the commissar, as an honest Serb, would

15 stay there to try to prevent extremist Serbs from becoming members of the

16 police station.

17 Q. Was the commissar successful in his attempt?

18 A. No. We did not want to leave the station. We repeated that we

19 are the people's police, that the people wanted us, and even the Serbs did

20 not agree with that. So we requested weapons which did not exist, because

21 Pero said that it had been taken away. And we agreed that we would stay

22 together until the next meeting; Serbs, and Muslims, and Croats.

23 Q. Following this meeting were you required to turn in your

24 police-issued weapon and ammunition?

25 A. Yes, but we had not taken our weapons along with us.

Page 1054

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Page 1056

1 Q. Did there come a time when the active-duty police or the Serb

2 reserve police then went to your house to collect the weapons and your

3 uniforms?

4 A. No. This happened later. That night, the meeting that had been

5 arranged at night took place several days later. Meanwhile, some other

6 things happened, the weapons were turned over to the Territorial Defence

7 and Baja Bjekic arrived. He had been absent for some time. That is, he

8 could not arrive in Ljubija from Prijedor via Hambarine.

9 The reserve police officers from Ljubija and Crkolac [phoen], the

10 Croat and Muslim police officers, that is, were assigned to duties in

11 Ljubija. And one morning we were called into the Ljubija police station

12 where we were met by the commander and some Serbs who were unknown to us.

13 And in this meeting, he addressed us with the following words, he said,

14 "As of today, this station will become Serb," that is the police will.

15 "Some of you will not be able to stay on here." The man who was standing

16 next to him handed him a list on which five names were listed including

17 myself, two active duty police officers, and two from the regular roster.

18 We immediately had to turn in our weapons. Meanwhile, by the time

19 I had reached home, they apparently -- they arrived and they waited for me

20 to get undressed, took the uniform and left.

21 Q. Of the five names that were read out that day, all of those police

22 officers were discharged from their official duties as police officers on

23 that day?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What were the ethnicities of the five that were discharged?

Page 1057

1 A. Muslim.

2 Q. Witness, at about the same time, do you recall the day that you

3 were discharged from the reserve police?

4 A. In early June.

5 Q. Now, in the time frame of late May, early June, 1992, were you

6 aware of other villages in the area of Prijedor town or in the opstina

7 that were also under attack?

8 A. I know about Kozarac. Before Kozarac, the population of Crkvica

9 were driven out, mostly Croats. I don't know about any others.

10 Q. Did you ever hear an announcement on Radio Prijedor about weapons

11 being held by civilians?

12 A. This kept repeating itself. Anything that was military from socks

13 up to the weapons that were legal -- even the hunting weapons that were in

14 possession of the Croats and Muslims had to be turned over.

15 Q. What about weapons that were in the hands of the Serbs? Do you

16 know anything about those weapons? I mean Serb civilians.

17 A. I don't know. They did not turn it in.

18 Q. They were permitted to keep their weapons then?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you ever hear any other announcements on Radio Prijedor with

21 respect to white flags?

22 A. Yes. All Muslims and Croats loyal to the Serb authorities were to

23 hoist or hang out a white cloth outside their homes.

24 Q. Did there come a time when your village, Donje Ljubija -- when the

25 Serbs came to your village?

Page 1058

1 A. Yes. That is Serbs were already there. It depends on which ones

2 you're referring to.

3 Q. I'm referring to groups of Serb soldiers, outside Serb soldiers,

4 coming into the village.

5 A. Yes. In early June, in the morning, we could hear individual

6 shots. I stepped outside and I saw several Serbs on a hill above my

7 house. They told me that I should tell the women to take off gold

8 jewellery that they had and to hide the money. Meanwhile, they came down

9 to my house. They told me to go inside the house and made it look as if

10 the house was -- had been ransacked, and they moved on. Meanwhile, the

11 others arrived -- started arriving. Some of them I knew, some I didn't.

12 They asked for my personal documents and also the same of my father, and

13 from a refugee who was staying in my house, and they all directed us to go

14 to a meeting point where a larger group of people was. From there, they

15 escorted us in a column to a stadium in Ljubija, and after longer period

16 of time, they separated out certain people and they released the rest of

17 us to our homes.

18 Q. Let me just go back, Witness. I have a couple of questions with

19 respect to when you were on your way to the stadium. Were you transported

20 in any way or did you walk or how did you get from your house to the

21 stadium?

22 A. First from my home, I went to the meeting point, which was to the

23 left, and when a larger group was formed there, they formed a column on

24 the -- it was flanked by these armed men. And on foot they escorted us to

25 the stadium.

Page 1059

1 Q. Did anything unusual happen while you were being escorted by these

2 soldiers that were on your flanks?

3 A. Many things.

4 Q. Can you elaborate, please?

5 A. Some of them were going from house to house. Many of them were

6 driving cars belonging to people whom I knew well. And while I was

7 walking to that meeting point along with my father, an APC tried to run us

8 over, which we avoided by taking cover in a yard. I saw a number of

9 people I knew, Serbs who were saying, "What is going on here?" Why were

10 they gathering us? Why were they taking us? And things like that.

11 Q. Now, Witness, you mentioned an APC. I assume that's an armoured

12 personnel carrier?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you see any other type of military vehicles that day in your

15 village?

16 A. Yes, trucks and a type of jeep vehicle that the Yugoslav army had.

17 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Vucicevic?

19 MR. VUCICEVIC: Objection to the translation. The first time the

20 witness testified, he said, I believe, "military truck" not "APC." He was

21 translated "APC." And then the second way added, he said it was APC. It

22 was leading by Mr. Mundis.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Continue.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Witness, now, you've indicated -- you testified that after you

Page 1060

1 were taken to the stadium, you were released. Can you describe for us a

2 little bit what was happening in the stadium while you were still there,

3 before you went home?

4 A. At the stadium the gates were closed. People whom I did not know

5 were coming in, going out, cursing. Then Rade Bilbija came, who was being

6 addressed by others as Vojvoda, and he said that we would be released,

7 that only some would be kept, that we should form a column and, again, we

8 were flanked by some -- by men, some of whom were in police, some of whom

9 were in military uniforms. They were checking ID cards, and separated out

10 some, and took them to the premises of the soccer club. The others who

11 had been checked would be released through the gates and allowed to go

12 back home.

13 Q. Witness, you used the term Vojvoda, can you describe briefly what

14 that term means?

15 A. I wouldn't be able to tell exactly. I had heard about Chetniks in

16 school, some Vojvodas, and when the war started, Rade Bilbija was given

17 this title. That is, I heard him address him in this manner.

18 Q. Do you recall approximately how many people were in the stadium

19 that day in Gornje Ljubija?

20 A. Several hundred.

21 Q. Do you know approximately how many of them were allowed to go home

22 that day?

23 A. I know that 20 to 30 were kept behind and the rest of them were

24 released. Those who were detained were for the most part men from

25 Hambarine and Agici.

Page 1061

1 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of the people that were kept there that

2 day, that were not allowed to go home from Hambarine?

3 A. Muslim.

4 Q. And of the roughly 20 to 30 people that were kept behind that day,

5 did you ever see any of those people again?

6 A. Yes. Some at Keraterm, some at Omarska.

7 Q. Did the ones that you later met at Keraterm or Omarska tell you

8 anything about the others that were detained and kept that day in the

9 stadium?

10 A. Yes, that they were -- those who were from the municipality and

11 were in Keraterm were transferred to Bosanski Novi, but that one of those

12 who had -- was killed at Keraterm.

13 Q. After you were released from the stadium and you were told that

14 you could go home, did you in fact, go home that day?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you describe what you saw when you got home on that day,

17 please?

18 A. While I was on my way home, I saw abandoned vehicles, things

19 scattered alongside the road, like brief cases. When I arrived home, my

20 wife told me that our neighbour had been raped, a man called [redacted]

21 killed, and several people disappeared.

22 Q. Did you hear anything about any kind of looting that had

23 occurred?

24 A. When I arrived home, I went to my sister, along with my wife, and

25 on our way we saw that all window shops, both private and state-owned,

Page 1062

1 were -- had been smashed. From some people I learned that they had been

2 robbed. Some had to give money because they had been threatened with

3 having their children killed.

4 Q. Witness D, did there come a time when you were once again arrested

5 or detained by the authorities?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recall the date and time that that happened?

8 A. On 18 June, in the evening hours.

9 Q. And what exactly happened on that day in the evening hours?

10 A. Savo Pusac came with several other policemen. I knew their

11 nicknames, and they said that I had to go to the police station to give a

12 statement. They placed me in a van called Puska [phoen], who used to be

13 the property of the Ljubija mine, and -- mining company, and they took me

14 to the police station.

15 Q. And what happened that evening at the police station?

16 A. There I found active duty police officers, Rade Zekan, Drincic and

17 Daljicic, and after several pro forma questions, they told me to go to the

18 hallway and take a seat and wait.

19 Q. Approximately how long were you at the police station on that

20 day?

21 A. Three to four hours.

22 Q. And then you were allowed to go home; is that correct?

23 A. Yes. Bjekic, the police commander, arrived. And the reserve

24 police officers, the Serbs who were new reserve police officers, one of

25 them who knew me, said what I was doing there? Then he went upstairs,

Page 1063

1 came down, and said that I could go home. I asked him if he could give me

2 a lift? He said that he didn't have fuel but that I was free to go, which

3 is what I did.

4 Q. What happened the following morning?

5 A. Early in the morning, at 5.00, the same Savo Pusac and those who

6 had been with him, came for me, took me to the Ljubija station, and

7 another three men came in, were put in a vehicle, that is, and we were all

8 taken to Keraterm camp.

9 Q. Do you recall any of the names of the other individuals that were

10 in the van with you that day?

11 A. Yes. They included Senad from Majdan, Fejzo, who had a pastry

12 shop in Ljubija, and a young man whom I did not know who had a pastry shop

13 in Prijedor which was called Zvejezdas, and he was also an ethnic

14 Albanian.

15 Q. Can you describe for us what happened to you when you arrived at

16 Keraterm?

17 A. We got out of the van. Some soldiers, policemen started yelling

18 at us. They ordered us to raise our hands and to lean against a kiosk

19 which was there to take out everything we had in our pockets. One of them

20 started beating me on the legs, telling me to spread them wider, and after

21 they had taken down our names, they told us to pick -- that we should pick

22 each our own apartment, suite.

23 Q. What did the guards mean by pick your own suite?

24 A. They were probably referring to the rooms where the others were.

25 Q. Did you see other people, other detainees that you knew or

Page 1064

1 recognised upon your first arrival in the camp?

2 A. Yes, many.

3 Q. Can you describe the physical appearance of some of these

4 individuals that you saw there that day?

5 A. The image was horrifying. They were unshaven. They were burned

6 by sun, filthy, some were beaten up.

7 Q. Witness, do you recall the day, the date that you arrived at

8 Keraterm?

9 A. 19 June 1992.

10 Q. And did you, in fact, select a room to stay in upon your arrival

11 at Keraterm and, if so, which room?

12 A. Yes. I went to Room 1. I met some acquaintances there. One of

13 them who saw me, he raised his head. He looked at me and he said that

14 there were already two reasons for me to be killed. One was that I had a

15 leather jacket on, and second was my appearance, that is, my height. And

16 because everything was crowded, I tried to see whether there was any room

17 in other rooms.

18 In front of Room 4, I recognised Drago Tokmadzic, Sead Islamovic

19 and some others. They said that it was full but that I should try to find

20 a place there and that we would swap our places in this which is what I

21 did.

22 Q. So you more or less decided to stay in Room 4 based on this

23 discussion that you had with Drago Tokmadzic and the other individual?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you briefly describe the conditions in --

Page 1065

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis, I think you are moving on to

2 conditions now.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we have to take the adjournment now.

5 Mr. Greaves.

6 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, there is a short matter that I would

7 like to raise. It doesn't need the witness here if he wants to go. It

8 has to do with the public gallery.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness D, you may leave, return 9.30 tomorrow

10 morning. You are not to discuss your evidence with anybody during the

11 adjournment and that includes members of the Prosecution.

12 [Witness stands down]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.

14 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, this morning a professional colleague

15 of mine who is instructed as my legal assistant in a case before the

16 Rwanda Tribunal sought to come and sit in the public gallery first thing

17 this morning. As you know, we had a short private session at that time.

18 Because it was in private session, the security told her that she could

19 not sit in the public gallery and if she wanted to watch proceedings,

20 she'd have to go to another court. As a result of which, she wasn't able

21 to realise that the private session came to an end fairly quickly this

22 morning, and was therefore sent off to Court 3 to go off and watch

23 something which she hadn't anticipated seeing.

24 It seems that that's unnecessarily heavy-handed of security to

25 prevent people from waiting until closed session is completed so that they

Page 1066

1 can see the proceedings of this court which, of course, this is not an

2 unimportant trial, and it's certainly important for my client that the

3 public should have proper access to it, and should not be prevented

4 unnecessarily from attending in the public gallery. And if they want to

5 sit here and wait for a closed session to end, then they should be free to

6 do so.

7 As a result she didn't see anything of the proceedings which

8 involves a genocide trial. That is the particular interest that she has

9 and, in my submission, it's to be deprecated.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we agree. We'll have the registrar

12 investigate it and report back to us, but in principle, we certainly

13 agree.

14 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. I don't want to make a

15 terrible fuss about it. It's probably something very simply that can be

16 dealt with quickly and quietly. It just seems to me it ought to be

17 brought to your attention.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

19 Mr. Vucicevic.

20 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I would have something I would like

21 to raise in a private session.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: In private session, yes.

23 [Private session]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1067

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Page 1069

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7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

8 5.11 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday the 27th day

9 of March, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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