Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2297

1 Wednesday, 11 April 2001

2 [Closed session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35.

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22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, you told us last week 25 more witnesses.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

25 JUDGE MAY: It may have been clear, but just to make it absolutely

Page 2316

1 certain, did that number include the witnesses who we are hearing this

2 week or is it 25 after Easter?

3 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe when I gave you that estimate, Your

4 Honour, that was not including the witnesses we have now heard this week.

5 But there were some other witnesses, and perhaps it was a rather

6 presumptuous statement to make, in the sense that I did not include the

7 number of transcript witnesses. And I realise in retrospect that -- what

8 I did say, I believe, was viva voce witnesses, provided the Court

9 doesn't -- I realise that there has yet a ruling to be made on those

10 witnesses, and some of those witnesses may in fact be cross-examined by

11 the Defence, but my estimate of 25 was -- at that point we had about 25

12 more witnesses. Now, we've been cutting some of them back and we have

13 actually stricken or struck some of the witnesses from our list in order

14 to try to meet our June 1st target date.

15 JUDGE MAY: Can you give us an up-to-date figure, then, this

16 afternoon?

17 MR. RYNEVELD: I certainly can, at 11.30.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we have about 29 working days.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, and that's why we're -- I worked till 11.00

20 last night getting summaries ready to make sure we could have another

21 witness today.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Your industry is appreciated.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Have summaries been circulated?

24 MR. GREAVES: Whilst we're waiting for the witness, I haven't

25 given my usual note to my learned friend as to what he can lead on as far

Page 2317

1 as the Defence of Sikirica is concerned, but it's paragraphs 1 to 6.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I don't know if my other --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Londrovic -- Mr. Petrovic, rather, and

4 Mr. Vucicevic, would you indicate?

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in respect of this

6 witness, we believe that this witness can be led only on the general data,

7 which means all the way to his arrest; after that, I think that the

8 witness needs to be examined directly.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Vucicevic.

10 MR. VUCICEVIC: I agree with what Mr. Petrovic said.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

14 WITNESS: FIKRET HIDIC

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please be seated.

19 Yes, Mr. Ryneveld. Proceed.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

22 Q. Now, Witness, sir, I understand that you were born and raised in

23 Bosanski Petrovac, where you attended school; is that correct?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. And you're presently 55 years old?

Page 2318

1 A. I'm 56 already.

2 Q. All right. And I understand, sir, that after you attended school,

3 you went on to study education until that was interrupted by your

4 compulsory service in the JNA; is that correct?

5 A. No. It was teachers' faculty. I was to be a teacher of physics

6 and technical training, and there is an explanation for it.

7 Q. I appreciate that. I believe perhaps it's --

8 A. In Bosnia, where you use the word "education," it means something

9 else. An educator is somebody who specialises in psychological work with

10 children.

11 Q. Then it's my use of terminology, sir, but is it safe to say that,

12 after you served your compulsory service, you graduated in 1973 as a

13 teacher?

14 A. Yes. Teacher of physics and technical training.

15 Q. Thank you for clarifying that for us, sir. Now, sir, you taught

16 at a school in Kozarac; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, you are right. It is correct. For the past 15 or 16 years,

18 yes. But before that, I worked in Omarska first, then at Lamovita. After

19 that, for about two school years in Lamovita, I did not last more than two

20 school years, my work in Lamovita, and then I went to Kozarac and I spent

21 the rest of my career in the school in Kozarac.

22 Q. Focusing on your career as a teacher in Kozarac, I understand that

23 that's where you were working as a teacher in the years leading up to

24 1992; is that correct?

25 A. It is.

Page 2319

1 Q. Now, sir, is it safe to say that at that school, your colleagues,

2 there were some 130 some odd teachers there at the time. You are nodding

3 your head, meaning yes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is it also safe to say, sir, that the ethnic composition of

6 those teachers was mixed? There were, like, 30 per cent Serbs, there was

7 some Croats and Ukranians, and the rest were Muslim?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And --

10 A. I mean 30 per cent -- well, nobody really counted, but, yes, that

11 would roughly be their share, yes. The majority, yes, they were Muslims,

12 that is, Bosniaks.

13 Q. Right. And just so that I am clear, you, sir, consider yourself

14 to be of Muslim ethnicity?

15 A. No; a Bosniak.

16 Q. All right. Thank you, sir. And --

17 A. Muslim -- no, I'm sorry, but a Muslim means your religious

18 affiliation.

19 Q. I appreciate that. Are you able to tell us what your particular

20 religious affiliation is, sir?

21 A. Islamic Muslim.

22 Q. Thank you. And I understand that about 90 per cent of the

23 children who attended your school were also of the Islamic faith; is that

24 correct?

25 A. It is.

Page 2320

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Page 2321

1 Q. Now, sir, do I understand that many of the male teachers in your

2 school, prior to the outbreak of the war, were in the JNA reserve,

3 regardless of their ethnic background?

4 A. Yes. There were different types of reserve. They have all or,

5 rather, the majority of our men had gone through the regular military

6 service, which was 11 or 12 months of the officers' school, that is. And

7 the regular troops, well, it depended on their profession, that is, a year

8 and a half or 16 months or something like that. And -- but then they

9 could be divided; there was Territorial Defence, and civil defence, and

10 all this was within the JNA and, to us, it was all legitimate and lawful,

11 and the majority of people attended the drills, the exercises, exercises

12 which lasted three days or five days or perhaps longer or perhaps on

13 Saturdays, which were days off.

14 Q. Sir, I'm not sure that I need quite as much detail concerning --

15 is it just fair to say that many of the male teachers were in the JNA

16 reserve; is that correct?

17 A. It is correct. I apologise.

18 Q. No, no, just -- perhaps I will just skip on, sir. I understand

19 that at some point you noticed a change in the type of broadcasts that

20 were available on Radio Prijedor, the newspaper, Kozarski Vijesnik, and

21 the Banja Luka TV; is that right?

22 A. It is, but not that simple, and not that short. The -- there were

23 different kinds of changes, and it started before 1990. But I suppose we

24 don't have time for any more detailed explanations here.

25 Q. I'm going to ask you to turn your mind to whether there were any

Page 2322

1 changes that were readily apparent shortly before the outbreak of the

2 conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992.

3 A. I didn't quite understand the question. I mean, could you please

4 explain it to -- your question better. Changes in Bosnia-Herzegovina or

5 in my school, in my work organisation?

6 Q. No, in the media. In other words -- let me rephrase it. Did

7 you --

8 A. Oh, I see, media.

9 Q. Yes. Did you see a radical change in the media in 1992?

10 A. Indeed, I did, and out of the blue in 1990 -- 1992, yes, those

11 changes were very abrupt, and in a way, they killed off normal men, and I

12 consider myself a normal man. I mean propaganda of different sorts,

13 aggressive propaganda divided along ethnic lines.

14 As for Prijedor, Prijedor itself, one could feel it in Prijedorski

15 Glas, and I also read regularly and also read Politika Ekspres and

16 Belgrade dailies. I made some comparisons. Prijedor Radio, Banja Luka

17 television, when the radio station in Kozarac was taken.

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Those were drastic changes already.

20 Q. All right. Without getting into the detail about those changes,

21 sir, I'm going to ask whether, at some point, you stopped teaching school

22 in Kozarac and, if so, why did you stop going to classes?

23 A. I stopped going to classes because on the last day that I spent in

24 Kozarac, and it was the 25th or the 26th of May, and to be quite frank,

25 for the past five, six, ten days, I was trying to avoid, that is, I used

Page 2323

1 the car or I rode a bus or other -- and I road a bus because I dared not

2 take out my car. And the 25th, I think that was the last day that I was

3 there, was the Thursday or Friday, I don't know, but that was the last

4 time that I was in Kozarac, that I went to Kozarac.

5 Q. Now, you said that you were trying to avoid something or you took

6 your car out. What were you trying to avoid?

7 A. There were -- up at Orlovci, which is about a kilometre, perhaps

8 two, away there were already guards, Serbs stood guard there. That was in

9 the early days. Then, there was a small bridge at the entrance to Susici,

10 we called it the next locality, there is a small bridge there. And then

11 up by the petrol pump at the entrance into Kozarac, there was yet another

12 guard, because the situation was not normal, and there was a kind of a

13 combination, as far as I could gather. People from Kozarac, something

14 mixed, some Serbs together with -- I did not really follow it very much

15 because all of that did not look normal to me.

16 It smelled of evil, and I was afraid and I heard some criticisms

17 from my colleagues, objections, "Oh, you are still going there, I

18 daren't." And that is why I eventually stopped going to work in Kozarac

19 one of those days.

20 Q. Now, I understand, sir, between the 25th or 26th of May - which

21 was the last days you say that you remember going to school as a teacher -

22 and the 23rd of June, what is it you did? What did you do between near

23 the end of May to near the end of June?

24 A. Between the end of May, well, all that time -- mostly, except on

25 the 23rd of June, most of that time I spent in the flat because I realised

Page 2324

1 it all. I was not politically committed, involved either before, or then,

2 or now. My area of interest, my intellectual needs are different and I

3 believe I am entitled to them. And between the 26th -- no, the 25th and

4 it was Monday, if I remember well, I went out to buy newspapers. At that

5 time, I used to buy four or five different papers.

6 In the former Yugoslavia at that time, all the papers from all

7 over were available, so I bought the papers and I bought a carton of

8 cigarettes, that is, ten packages. I went out in my sweatsuit, and I

9 walked around Patria, around that side of the theatre, and there was a

10 checkpoint of sorts. And I was wearing this sweatsuit which was

11 checkered, something blue and green, or something like that.

12 And then a guard halted me, "Identity card, here you are. What do

13 you need this for? It is a Croat flat. It is a Ustasha flag, zenga, by

14 the wall."

15 At that time, I didn't really know, well, I knew roughly what the

16 old Croatian flag looked, it was red and white checkers.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I have an objection to the

19 interpretation. The witness said that, in part, he was colour-blind and

20 that is missing from the translation.

21 A. Well, I am mixing up red and green. Everybody who knows what that

22 means will understand. For instance, when I see traffic lights, I can

23 identify them. When it comes to nuances, I cannot tell them apart, but I

24 know what is blue. I know what is black. I know what is white. And

25 these are the characteristic -- this is very characteristic of color-blind

Page 2325

1 persons.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

3 A. That is all.

4 Q. Sir, but for this one occasion when you went out to get

5 newspapers, is it fair to say, sir, that you stayed in your flat for most

6 of the time between the 25th of May and the 23rd of June?

7 A. I never left my apartment until the arrest -- the flat, no. The

8 yard, outside the yard, no. I was with my neighbours. But I never left

9 the flat, the building.

10 Q. Did you not leave the flat of the building because of that

11 experience that you have just related to us about being checked by a guard

12 when you went to buy a newspaper and cigarettes?

13 A. I did, yes.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. He forced me to lean against a wall, and then some snipers came

16 up, so that he let me go. Otherwise I think that that guard, the guard

17 who was there, it must have been a former pupil of mine, but I am not

18 sure, so I cannot really say. But I suppose he recognised me. And then

19 some confusion ensued and he told me, "F you," and let me go. And then I

20 was in the house until 6.00 or 7.00 in the evening. I simply never left

21 the building.

22 Q. All right, sir. Let's move on, then, to the 23rd of June. You

23 had stayed in your flat after that scary incident, and then on the 23rd of

24 June something happened. What was that?

25 A. I was reading something in the flat, and then the children, my

Page 2326

1 older daughter, came, and said that the police wanted to speak to me, to,

2 that is, come downstairs. And I did --

3 Q. Yes. And perhaps -- I'm going to ask you some questions and

4 direct you to certain areas, with my friends' permission. Sir, I

5 understand that your child came and told you some policemen wanted to see

6 you downstairs. Did you go downstairs?

7 A. The police had said -- yes, I did. I did go downstairs.

8 Q. And when you got there, how many people were there?

9 A. Where?

10 Q. Downstairs.

11 A. Where? In front of the building, in the vehicle? Well, there

12 were very many children.

13 Q. Okay. Let me be very specific. You were sent downstairs by your

14 child, who said that there was a policeman waiting for you. Is that

15 correct, or am I wrong about that?

16 A. Yes, that's right. That's right.

17 Q. When you got there --

18 A. You're quite right.

19 Q. When you got there, quite apart from how many children there were,

20 how many policemen were there?

21 A. There was one policeman, one soldier.

22 Q. Did you know him?

23 A. I did. Not well, but a policeman on the beach. We called him

24 Strika. I do not know what his name was, but we've called him Strika for

25 20 years. A tall man, dark.

Page 2327

1 Q. Was there anyone with him?

2 A. There was a soldier, a young man in a military uniform, in a JNA

3 uniform.

4 Q. When you met Strika and this young man in the military uniform,

5 what, if anything, did they do with you?

6 A. No. They told me to get into the car, and I asked why. And he

7 said, "You'll learn soon enough." Nothing else.

8 Q. What did you do next?

9 A. When they brought me to the police station -- we rode to the

10 police station, we entered, and I had my identity card with me. That was

11 the only personal paper that I had on me. And he told me to sit -- there

12 was a bench to the right with a table, a wooden bench. We call it a

13 bench. It's about five -- it would seat five or six. And it was there,

14 and he told me to sit there and wait.

15 Q. Sir, the size of the bench probably isn't that significant. What

16 I'm asking you to do is -- you were asked to sit and wait there, were

17 you? Yes.

18 A. [No interpretation]

19 Q. And did you wait for a period of time?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. And how long did you wait before something happened?

22 A. Two hours. I had my watch. Two hours.

23 Q. What happened then?

24 A. Then he -- Strika came from somewhere outside, took me into the

25 office - not the first; the second office to the right - and he took my

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Page 2329

1 particulars, the basic ones, name and the rest, then took me out and made

2 me board a car where there was already -- and there was a woman in it, and

3 then that same soldier, that young man, and Strika was the driver.

4 Q. Did you know the name of the woman who was already in the car when

5 you were placed in it?

6 A. I did, yes. I recognised her. She was --

7 Q. Who was it?

8 A. I'm sorry. I didn't understand.

9 Q. What was the name of the woman that you say you know, if you know

10 the name?

11 A. Suada. We called her Suada, Suada, conductor Suada. She

12 frequently checked tickets between Prijedor-Kozarac, Prijedor-Omarska.

13 Suada, was it Ramic? I don't know. Suada.

14 Q. She was already in the back seat of this car and you were placed

15 in the car and then were you taken somewhere?

16 A. They took me to Keraterm.

17 Q. Now, if I can just back up for one moment. Did they search you at

18 all, sir, when they first put you in the car when they picked you up at

19 home?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Up until this point, you were not searched. You were taken to the

22 SUP, which is the police station, you waited for a few hours, and then you

23 were taken by Strika and put in the car and driven to Keraterm; is that

24 the effect of what happened?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2330

1 Q. Thank you. Now, when you got to Keraterm, sir, what happened to

2 you there?

3 A. Well, I was thinking -- a soldier, I was thinking whether he'll go

4 to Omarska or Keraterm. But Strika, according to them, decided that I

5 should go to Keraterm after all, and he brought me to what we used to call

6 the scales. That was an area with a kiosk and with a brick floor. It was

7 already dark. It was 10 past 9.00, or something like that, in the

8 evening. I saw the troops, military. That was all new to me. Uniformed,

9 half-uniformed, red caps, pistols which the army did not use. They were

10 Zastava pistols. And all of that wasn't very pleasant for me. I was

11 shocked. It was an unpleasant situation. Should I continue?

12 Q. Yes, but listen to my questions, if you would, please. When you

13 arrived at Keraterm, were you searched?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. By whom?

16 A. I think -- I'm not sure, because I still cannot recognise him

17 properly, but I think it was Mr. Kajin - that is what he called him - a

18 short man, I mean, to my mind, 176 or something, fat, short sleeves,

19 T-shirt, military uniform, red cap, relatively round-faced. And he

20 searched -- he only frisked me very superficially, because I only had the

21 sweatsuit and a shirt and a watch and identity card, so it did not last

22 long. He just frisked me barely. Nobody beat me there at the entrance,

23 which otherwise happened quite often.

24 Q. All right. You say that it happened quite often. This is

25 something you found out later during your stay; is that correct?

Page 2331

1 A. Yes. I watched it often. Practically everybody was beaten, all

2 the groups, most of them. For instance, Brezicani, that's a village from

3 which people also came, were not beaten. That is what I remember. As for

4 others, I think they were all more or less beaten, what I could see, what

5 I saw, what I could see.

6 Q. All right. Witness, just slow down a little, because the

7 interpreters have to interpret everything you're saying. At the speed at

8 which you're saying it, that must be difficult.

9 Did Strika, in your presence, tell the guards anything about what

10 to do or not to do with respect to you?

11 A. Yes, he did. He said --

12 Q. What did he say?

13 A. "This one is not dangerous," something like that. "This one is

14 harmless," or something to that effect. "Let him go."

15 Q. As a result of that, were you beaten when you arrived at Keraterm,

16 sir, when you first arrived?

17 A. No. No, not then. No.

18 Q. No, I understand.

19 A. Not then.

20 Q. We'll get to that in a moment. Where did you go after you were

21 searched? Where were you put or where were you told to go?

22 A. Mr. Kajin -- but I learnt his name later, or rather the guards

23 told me. No, sorry. The prisoners. Mr. Kajin told me to go to Room 1.

24 I didn't know about it, so I asked him where, and he came close to me and

25 said, "Over there," and indicated a room to the left.

Page 2332

1 Q. And did you go there?

2 A. I didn't enter it straight away. I had no time to do it. As I

3 was walking towards the room, unsure of my whereabouts because it was

4 dark, and then Kajin, Mr. Kajin, invited me to come back.

5 Q. When you say he invited you, what kinds of words did he use that

6 you interpreted --

7 A. To walk back to him. And when I did, he asked me if I had worked

8 in the Kozarac school.

9 Q. Yes. What did you say?

10 A. Yes, I worked there.

11 Q. Did he ask you anything else?

12 A. He then asked me if I knew Medunjali [phoen], or rather he meant

13 Becir Medunjanin. I told him yes, I worked with him.

14 Q. Did this Kajin, or this person that you say was Kajin, say

15 anything to you after you said that you worked with him?

16 A. That was an outpour, outburst, which was shocking to me, because I

17 had known that man, had worked for 20 years with that man. I was told

18 that I was something like an advisor to him. There were all sorts of

19 things to that effect, to that effect. But for instance, I remember that

20 he was a fundamentalist. He didn't really know what the word

21 "fundamentalist" means, I suppose, but I realised what that meant within

22 the context of the propaganda, what I had already heard about Medunjanin

23 from the press, from television and the rest, and I was scared. I barely

24 made it to number 1. I was -- I was in cold sweat all over by then.

25 Q. Just one more question before we break, if I may. You went to

Page 2333

1 Room 1, I understand, sir, and when you got there, were the other

2 detainees in that room interested? What did they ask you?

3 A. Well, to begin with, there were very many people there. It was

4 full, and we say full as a matchbox. There was a huge number of people in

5 that area. I simply did not know where was I to put up, where to sit

6 down, how. And then I saw --

7 JUDGE MAY: Was that the question you asked, for a description of

8 the room?

9 MR. RYNEVELD: It certainly wasn't, Your Honour. Perhaps we

10 should have the break now and I will --

11 JUDGE MAY: It would be helpful if the witness understood that he

12 must answer the questions. No doubt you know what you want to cover.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: I have tried to ask the witness to listen to my

14 question, Your Honour, but I understand that he wants to tell a story.

15 And I'm going to have to attempt to control the amount of detail I'm

16 getting, but I'm a bit constrained by the fact that my friends have

17 indicated they don't want me to lead. But I do want to direct him

18 specifically to the areas of interest, so I'll do that after the break, if

19 I may.

20 JUDGE MAY: If he wants to get away today and finish his evidence,

21 the more shortly he answers the questions, the better.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. Would this be an

23 appropriate time for the break?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it would be. We will take a break now.

25 Mr. Hidic, we're now going to take an adjournment for half an

Page 2334

1 hour. During the adjournment you are not to discuss your evidence with

2 anybody, including the members of the Prosecution team.

3 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.45 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, I apologise, but my client has had

7 consultation with the registry in between, so I was -- [Microphone not

8 activated].

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Vucicevic.

10 Mr. Ryneveld.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Now, Witness, just before the break, you told us that you went --

13 you were sent to Room 1 after your discussion with Kajin and, upon your

14 arrival, I take it there were other detainees in the room; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Upon your arrival, did you have a conversation with any of the

18 detainees concerning what you had been doing in relation to just before

19 you came into the room?

20 A. I recognised a colleague with whom I had worked. There was no

21 seating room, there was only -- standing room only and he asked me, "What

22 had Kajin asked you?" I told him that he had asked me about Becir

23 Medunjanin and to this he said what it was. I mentioned about the

24 fundamentalist and his advisor issue and then Namik said that there was no

25 worse accusation in Keraterm than that one. This is what Namik said.

Page 2335

1 Q. When your colleague said to you, "What did Kajin ask?" who did you

2 understand him to mean when he said "Kajin"?

3 A. I did not understand the question very well. My apologies. That

4 there were no worse accusations in terms of the -- of the camp inmates,

5 their position. My position in relation to others.

6 Q. Sir, let me ask the question in a different way. You're speaking

7 to your colleague, and as I understood your evidence, you said your

8 colleague said to you, "What did Kajin ask?" Is that your evidence?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you know who he meant when he said "Kajin"? Do you know who

11 he was referring to when he used that name?

12 A. No, I did not. When he said "Kajin," I did not know who it was.

13 Q. Is that the first time you heard the name Kajin being used?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did it later become clear to you who Kajin was in the camp?

16 A. 15 minutes later -- 10, 15, perhaps not even 10.

17 Q. All right. We'll come to that in a moment. Sir, you were about

18 to tell us that when you went into Room 1, that it was extremely crowded.

19 I think you've told us that just before the break; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, very much so. What I mean to say, the room was simply

21 overcrowded with people; some were sitting, some were lying, some were

22 standing. Most of them were squatting, but many, many people, given that

23 space.

24 Q. Are you able to estimate a number of detainees in Room 1 when you

25 were sent to it?

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Page 2337

1 A. At that moment, that is what I felt. Later on, we measured the

2 room by feet, and later on, I got a certain idea how much room there was.

3 And later on when I found my space, I found out how much space I had, that

4 was 20, 25 centimetres, and we were about 300 total. Some were then

5 transferred to other rooms, but there were about 300, 350 men. There was

6 about 50 men the length of the room to the door. So you can do your own

7 math by multiplying.

8 Q. If I understand your answer, sir, my answer to my specific

9 question is that your estimate is 300 to 350 men in the room at the time;

10 is that correct?

11 A. Approximately. Quite a few at the time.

12 Q. You volunteered the fact that you measured the room. Did you

13 measure this --

14 A. It was later.

15 Q. I understand that. Did you measure this room with some kind of a

16 measuring device or is this pacing it off or how did you measure the

17 room?

18 A. Well, pacing it, and some others also said. And then there were

19 some girders of the ceiling and they were spaced two metres apart. But to

20 me, that wasn't important that it was overcrowded. When I came there, I

21 had no place where to go. And it was also -- the odour was very strong.

22 People were filthy, they were unshaven, there were pallets --

23 Q. Witness, my question just at the moment -- I'll get to those

24 things later. My question at the moment is: Are you able to give us an

25 estimate of the size of the room after you measured it or after you paced

Page 2338

1 it or after you counted the number of girders? Can you tell the Court

2 now, to the best of your recollection, how large Room 1 was?

3 A. Yes. Approximately the length was about 15 metres, 15 to 20 by 5

4 or 6 metres, somewhere around there.

5 Q. All right, sir. Moments ago when I asked you a question about the

6 name Kajin, you said about 15 minutes later you learned something more.

7 Tell us what happened 15 minutes or so after you were placed in Room 1.

8 A. Mr. Kajin called me out.

9 Q. Did you go out?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did you find once you were outside of the room?

12 A. I saw him first again -- it was already dark at that time. It may

13 have been 9.00, 9.30. It was about 10 minutes later. I saw some guards.

14 Q. And what, if anything, happened?

15 A. They were already standing there. Kajin was closer to me. Those

16 two guards were already there. Later on I would learn that that was five,

17 six, seven metres in the direction of the road, within this complex, over

18 towards Room 2. And this is what I saw at that time.

19 Q. Did something happen when you went outside and encountered Kajin

20 and the two guards?

21 A. These guards called me over and immediately beating started.

22 Q. Who beat you?

23 A. Later on I learnt, even though I had not known them before. They

24 were young men. They were 150, 160, tall, longer hair. I remember that

25 they had military boots. I think that they were wearing military

Page 2339

1 uniform. They first started beating me with rifle butts. That is where I

2 received my first blow, here. I fell down, I got up.

3 Q. I'm sorry. Did you demonstrate where "here" was? Did you tell us

4 where you received your first blow?

5 A. The first blow came here.

6 Q. And for the record, you put your hand to the back of your neck; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes, behind the neck. That is right. Back of my neck.

9 Q. Continue, sir. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I had to find

10 out for the record where you were struck.

11 A. So he hit me behind the neck. That was one of them. I don't know

12 which one of them it was, even to date. And then these blows went on with

13 rifle butts. I think they had Kalashnikovs. And then it was just general

14 beating. At that point, I could withstand that. And I was an athlete. I

15 know what hitting is. I did some karate in the military. And

16 then -- nothing professional; just as an amateur. So I try to avoid hits

17 as much as I could. Then I fell down. And then I was hit in the crotch.

18 That just fell me.

19 Then I felt fear, then anger. I asked one of these Banovics, "Why

20 are you beating me? What for? What are you beating me for?" One of

21 them, I don't know which one, said, "Do you know that my brother was

22 killed at the front?" I said, "I'm sorry that he was killed, but I did

23 not know about it, and I have nothing to do with it. I'm not guilty of

24 it." Then they went on --

25 Q. Let's stop for a moment --

Page 2340

1 A. -- beating me.

2 Q. I'm just going to clarify a couple of points. In your last

3 narration of what happened to you, you said you asked one of the

4 Banovics. Who are you talking about when you said you asked one of the

5 Banovics? Were they the people that you referred to as the guards earlier

6 or is this someone else?

7 A. These were -- these were the guards. There were three Banovics.

8 I knew one of them, Rade Banovic. He worked with me. And so it wasn't

9 that one, not this person Rade. But later on, I learnt that they were

10 half brothers, that these two were brothers, that they were from my

11 neighbourhood, that they went -- that they hung out with my children. I

12 learnt about their father also later on. But it was those two Banovics

13 who beat me.

14 And something else: I remember also -- that is, while I was still

15 conscious, Kajin was the one who had brought me out. He didn't beat me,

16 but he was standing on a curb or somewhere, four or five or six metres in

17 the direction of number 3 and number 1. And for the rest of the beating I

18 did not see Mr. Kajin there, but when they started beating me, he was

19 around, yes.

20 Q. All right, sir. At some point after this beating continued, did

21 you lose consciousness?

22 A. Well, I was already -- when you receive five or six such blows, I

23 was -- I was kind of falling down, getting up. One gets up

24 instinctively. And then again there were blows. I would fall. I don't

25 know how long it went on. Approximately --

Page 2341

1 Q. Witness --

2 A. I don't know, 10, 15 --

3 Q. Witness, just listen to my question. At some point during this

4 beating, did you lose consciousness? That's a straight question.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you next became aware of something, in other words, when you

7 awoke from this state of unconsciousness, what was the next thing you can

8 recall?

9 A. Next, a metal barrel, there was water in it. I think it was a

10 metal barrel with water from that metal barrel, and I held on with my

11 hands. I held onto something.

12 Q. Where was your head in relation to the water in the barrel?

13 A. Well, I guess in the water before I came to. I was wet, so water,

14 I suppose.

15 Q. How or what did you feel, other than being wet?

16 A. Well, I felt -- no, I didn't feel any pain, I felt some kind of

17 pressure here. I could not breathe. Then I -- then I felt strong pain on

18 this side. I still react to changes to weather, very acute pain, I don't

19 know how to put it, very sharp pain. I couldn't breathe properly.

20 Q. And for the record, Witness, you are taking your hand and

21 demonstrating for the Court your right side of your chest as you're giving

22 your evidence; is that right?

23 A. I apologise, yes. The right -- no, no, no, left -- of my left

24 side, on the left side of my chest, more to the left and towards the

25 head. I could not breathe. And I felt a very sharp pain, a truly sharp

Page 2342

1 pain did I feel.

2 Q. What happened next?

3 A. Blows again on the legs, loins, I suppose, that is, the crotch.

4 That is from the knees to the other side. My back, my head, then I fell.

5 And then I felt -- but I was somewhere between unconsciousness and sort of

6 semi -- half consciousness. But then I felt grass, which should mean that

7 I wasn't on the asphalt, on the concrete, which meant that I was on the

8 grass because I felt that grass.

9 Then I felt the blows to the left side of my head, one, two,

10 three, all over the body, and then I fainted again. I mean -- because at

11 that time, it had already become batons or police truncheons. It wasn't

12 rifle butts any more, or perhaps one used the baton and another one used a

13 rifle butt, I can't say, because at that time I was already only

14 semiconscious, and then I fainted completely.

15 Q. All right, sir. When you woke up from this second bout of

16 unconsciousness, where did you find yourself?

17 A. I found myself in a small and dark room.

18 Q. Did you later find out where this room was located?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where was it?

21 A. It was number 1, the first one next to number 2, the small room.

22 Next to it was the lavatory.

23 Q. Are you referring to the lavatory or are you referring to a

24 different room when you woke up?

25 A. No, no, no. No, not lavatory. It's a small narrow space. I had

Page 2343

1 not been there before or after, but it is a small and narrow space. How

2 do I know that it was narrow? Because from where I was lying, I could see

3 guards, seven, eight, ten guards or soldiers, I don't know who that was,

4 but they were very near me. They were very near me, that is, when I woke

5 up.

6 There were guards, and in front of me were the two Banovics, right

7 in front of me. And it's very narrow space. To the right, I recognise --

8 no, I didn't recognise it because it was dark, but they had their torches,

9 their flashlights, a tall, younger man. And behind the back in right-hand

10 corner, there was a man whom I did not know before, tall. At that time, I

11 could not -- I could not really say what kind of clothes he had, but later

12 on I realised what clothes he had. That is -- and I don't know if I told

13 you, towards the back wall, there was a young man, short, thin, facing the

14 wall. I could not see his face.

15 Q. All right, sir. Apart from these guards that were there with

16 flashlights or torches, as you call them, were there any other detainees

17 in that room?

18 A. That gentleman facing the wall was a prisoner, and the one to the

19 right of me about half a metre away, maybe, he was also a prisoner. And I

20 suppose while I was unconscious, I don't know how long that lasted, he

21 must have been -- not must have been, he was beaten. During that time, he

22 was beaten. I found that out later because he lay in number 1 across me.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Excuse me, Witness, would you just concentrate on

24 the questions that you are asked and try to answer them to the best of

25 your ability and as simply and as shortly as possible. The question was

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Page 2345

1 fairly simple, that is: Were there any other detainees in the room?

2 MR. RYNEVELD:

3 Q. And I understand, sir, that your answer was yes to that. Did you

4 know the name of any of the other detainees that were in that small little

5 room with you when you woke up?

6 A. Detainees, no. But I heard from Banovic, I heard Banovics call

7 him Tarzan. "Are you Tarzan? Are you that Tarzan?" A nickname or

8 something.

9 Q. My apologies. I said name, I also should have included nickname.

10 Did you hear or did you know someone by the nickname of Tarzan to be in

11 that room with you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Sir, when you were in --

14 A. Guards, guards called him Tarzan, guards, Banovics specifically.

15 Q. Were the Banovics in that room with you and Tarzan?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What, if anything, happened to you in relation to the Banovics and

18 Tarzan, if anything?

19 A. I don't know. At that moment, I didn't know. I found out later,

20 some 10, 15 days later that he had also been beaten that night and brought

21 to the same room where I was.

22 Q. Let me rephrase my question. While you were in the room and while

23 Tarzan was in the room, did something happen to you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Tell us about that.

Page 2346

1 A. Yes. One of the Banovics, I don't know which one, took off my

2 sweatsuit, forced me to stand up. And I was semiconscious, I was down on

3 the floor. There was a wheelbarrow there, and I leaned, I supported

4 myself against it and somehow managed to stand up. And they got me -- the

5 trousers of my sweatsuit down, and then Tarzan had to kneel down - he was

6 beaten all the time during that on the head and his back. And I apologise

7 to all the listeners here, they got hold of my penis and put it in his

8 mouth and beat him then. And I felt the pain down there, around the

9 testicles and that part, because it was a police baton which was

10 responsible for it. Very degrading, very mean.

11 Q. During the course of this incident, did you receive a burn to your

12 hand or your arm?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How did that happen?

15 A. One of them got a lighter, a gas lighter, and started for my

16 testicles. And I was about to put my hands down, and I apologise again,

17 he scorched my pubic hair only, but then he burnt my hand, and I have it

18 here. So that, fortunately, as far as those organs down there, I got off

19 relatively lightly. But it was very hard for me, perhaps more than any

20 other beatings, that humiliating, the degrading thing, very hard. I still

21 have problems with that. I still smart from it psychologically, the

22 situation that I was in.

23 Q. Before yesterday, had you told anyone about that incident that

24 you've just related to us?

25 A. My wife.

Page 2347

1 Q. Sir, after that incident involving the lighter, what happened to

2 you next while in that room?

3 A. And then that gentleman who stood to my right, I gleaned him

4 somehow, a big, tall man, it was his turn then, and together with

5 Banovics, he beat me, but I wasn't really aware of that. I don't know how

6 long it took. But I felt, for instance -- yes, I did feel the difference

7 between the military batons and the cable; that is, I found out later on

8 that it was a power cable, and I saw it -- well, afterwards -- or at least

9 pieces like that one, because that is a completely different type of

10 blow. And I think it was then that they broke my ribs, the two ribs here,

11 these here, and I think that was it. And I learnt later on that it was

12 Mr. Duca. I didn't know his name then.

13 That was really torturing, really, and I suppose it was then that

14 the knife, or perhaps something else -- but in Zagreb the doctors told me

15 that it was a knife. I have a cut here like this, and I have another cut

16 down there, and I was also stabbed in the left shin. You can still see

17 the scars. What was it? Of course, it got infected, and I mean -- but I

18 do not know what that was, because I was not conscious when that happened,

19 and I have no idea with what they did it, even though those cuts up here,

20 down there, and above my knee and the one beneath the ribs the doctor told

21 me that it was a knife. But down on my left leg, above the -- on the

22 shin, above the -- above my foot, he could not say what that had been done

23 with. But it was all on my left side.

24 Q. Sir, is it fair to say that after this protracted series of

25 beatings that you've just related to us, that you lost consciousness

Page 2348

1 again?

2 A. Tarzan told me later on. I didn't know that they had beaten me,

3 because that -- I fainted and I regained consciousness in Room 1.

4 Q. Just a moment, Witness. I just want to back you up to the point

5 when you were still in the little room, the little dark room with Tarzan,

6 and you've told us about an additional beating. Did you lose

7 consciousness in that room again?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recall being back at the water barrel at any point?

10 A. Yes, outside. I came to over the water barrel. That is when I

11 came to. Well, not quite. I didn't regain my consciousness fully, but I

12 was sort of aware of my surroundings, halfway through.

13 Q. Just stop there. Just stop there. When you became semi-aware of

14 your surroundings, did you hear anyone say anything within your hearing?

15 A. I suppose when they got my head out of the water, so you -- just

16 for a moment you are conscious. And I saw that Duca - that is, later on I

17 found that it was Duca - he stood behind the barrel, and Banovics were

18 behind me. That is, the barrel was right in front of me, Mr. Duca to the

19 right. And what I heard was more or less - and I believe I already said

20 that - he said something like -- of course, he cursed at my mother and he

21 said, "This Turk is still alive," but in the Bosnian sense of the word,

22 not -- how you translate it, how you have it in your statement. That is,

23 he first cursed at my mother and then he said, "Now we'll see. Now you'll

24 see," something to that effect.

25 Q. Now, I understand, sir, that you were beaten again and lost

Page 2349

1 consciousness again; is that correct?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. And when you woke up from this final bout of unconsciousness,

4 where did you find yourself?

5 A. I found myself in the middle of Room 1, underneath a window or

6 something, on the concrete, next to Mr. Namik. There was one Edhem Susic,

7 a man of about 90, and between their legs -- no, not between, because they

8 had their legs on me when I first came to on the concrete, down.

9 Q. Witness --

10 A. No, it wasn't concrete. No. I think it was tiles.

11 Q. Sir -- Witness, it really doesn't matter that much exactly where

12 you were in the room or whether it was tiles or concrete. There are more

13 significant things you can tell this Court. What I'm interested in: When

14 you woke up, you were in Room 1; is that correct?

15 A. It is.

16 Q. And did you find out from the other detainees how long you had

17 been unconscious when you awoke in Room 1?

18 A. Afterwards -- well, according to what they told me, it was three

19 or four days, approximately.

20 Q. After you woke up in Room 1 after this prolonged period of

21 unconsciousness, were you able to function normally?

22 A. No. I don't understand what "normal functioning" means. I didn't

23 quite understand the question.

24 Q. Were you able to get up, move around, go to the bathroom, eat,

25 sleep, drink?

Page 2350

1 A. No. No. No.

2 Q. What limitations were there on your activities?

3 A. After that, when I woke up, I spent another ten days in a

4 semiconscious state. I could see, I couldn't see; I'd faint, then come

5 back to; hear people, not hear people; see, not see. And I felt

6 horrible. A stench. I must have defecated. And blood too, I suppose.

7 Horrible stench.

8 Q. Sir, how did you get food or water? Could you eat?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did other prisoners help you with respect to getting you some

11 water from time to time? Sorry. I didn't hear the answer.

12 A. I couldn't take in food or water at first.

13 Q. Sir, after that last incident, were you beaten again while you

14 were at Keraterm?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Now, do I understand correctly, sir, that this beating happened

17 almost the first day that you arrived at Keraterm?

18 A. The first hour.

19 Q. All right. Sorry. I understand that within the day there

20 was -- this beating happened almost immediately upon your arrival at

21 Keraterm; is that correct?

22 A. Naturally, yes.

23 Q. And after the incidents that you've described to us in some

24 detail, you were not beaten again?

25 JUDGE MAY: He said that.

Page 2351

1 A. No.

2 MR. RYNEVELD:

3 Q. Thank you. Sir, about ten days before the camp closed, did

4 something happen with respect to -- were you interrogated?

5 A. About 10, maybe 15 -- no, 10, 12 days, yes, they interrogated me.

6 Q. That was just 10 days before the camp closed; is that right?

7 A. Ten to twelve days, yes.

8 Q. Do you remember how it was that you came to be interrogated?

9 A. I was called out from a list.

10 Q. Do you know how that list was created?

11 A. I don't, but I suppose that when detainees arrived, they made

12 lists and then followed a sequence, or rather -- I don't know how they

13 made those lists.

14 Q. All right. You were interrogated, sir. I understand that was a

15 relatively -- they just asked you normal questions and you were taken back

16 to Room 1; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, sir, while you were at Keraterm camp, did you have occasion

19 to see --

20 A. I apologise. I apologise. May I add something very important for

21 me, for us?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very briefly.

23 A. I asked Mr. Ranko Bucalo, whom I knew pretty well and who was my

24 interrogator. There was another gentleman in a uniform and trainers.

25 Him, I didn't know. And so I said, "What am I doing here?" That is, I

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Page 2353

1 wanted to find out: Was he -- did he realise what he was doing? And I

2 got no answer. This is of vital importance for me.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will ask you to listen carefully to the

4 questions that counsel is asking because he has a special reason for

5 asking them, and just answer those questions as precisely as possible.

6 Continue, Mr. Ryneveld.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Now, Witness --

9 A. I apologise for the interruption, but it is very important for me.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we appreciate that, yes.

11 A. It needs to be taken into account.

12 MR. RYNEVELD:

13 Q. Sir, while you were at Keraterm camp, I understand there was an

14 occasion when you saw some dead bodies; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us the circumstances under which you saw those dead

17 bodies and when and where that was.

18 A. In the morning, before 5.00, before the shift change. I had gone

19 to drink some water, but I would not keep anything, water or food,

20 dysentery or something. And when I could, I urinated in a bottle, but I

21 couldn't do that even. So I asked the guards to come out earlier, and one

22 of them was a pupil of mine. And that morning, he let me out, going

23 beyond the rules which were there, that is, the guards did not let

24 prisoners to the lavatory before 5.00, but they let me out.

25 And I came out, and I could -- to the right of me, there was some

Page 2354

1 garbage or something, and I remember seeing there three men. After that

2 day -- and, sir, I did not explain it to you proper when we discussed.

3 After that, there were more people that day, I don't remember the date, in

4 some inspection of sorts came, from the police or somebody because a

5 number of people had been killed. We did not come out at that time.

6 There were five, six, seven dead men.

7 Mr. Sikirica also came. I do not know him yet, but it was from

8 the stories that I heard. I don't know and I'm not interested. But we

9 did not come out, and it was when those men were picked up -- well, it was

10 that morning that I went to the lavatory, and it could not last more than

11 four or five minutes, and it was then that I saw those men there.

12 Q. And those men that you saw, could you tell if they were dead or

13 alive?

14 A. I think dead.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. What shall I tell you? I think they were dead.

17 Q. Thank you. I'd like you to turn your mind now to an occasion in

18 mid-July when you and your other detainees were lined up for lunch. Did

19 an incident occur while you were in the lunch lineup that you can tell us

20 about?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would you do that now, please.

23 A. Well, in short, we were standing in the line. There was a guard,

24 he was toothless. I don't know which one it was. He was sitting in a

25 chair. And then we had to start going when he knocked with the rifle

Page 2355

1 butt. Along with me, there was a cleric, a hodza or imam.

2 Q. Just so I'm clear, a hodza, or imam, is a Muslim priest or Muslim

3 clergyman?

4 A. Yes, a cleric. He received a lot of beating there with rifle

5 butts, batons. There were several guards involved. He would get up, fall

6 down. It was -- he was an older man with a heart condition. I think he

7 had suffered two heart attacks. I knew him fairly well.

8 Q. Could you tell whose shift was on at the time this beating of the

9 Muslim hodza took place?

10 A. Mr. Kole. He was there. He was some distance away, maybe five,

11 six metres away, but he did not beat him.

12 Q. Would he have been able to see this beating from where he was?

13 A. Of course.

14 Q. This Kole, do you know who -- what position Kole had in the camp?

15 A. He was guard commander, a commander or chief of the guard.

16 Q. How do you know that?

17 A. Well, later, when I started going out, he would come. I was once

18 with him in the toilet, and I was feeling ill. They brought me to the

19 toilet, that is something -- we were in a hurry. I was sitting on a

20 crate. I was feeling sick. It was, I think, a plastic crate for beer or

21 sodas in the front part of the toilet and --

22 Q. Sir, the size or the construction of the crate isn't really that

23 significant to my question. How did you know Kole? Where did you see

24 him?

25 A. This is where I met him in person, that is, number one. In number

Page 2356

1 two I saw bars, movements, lunch, how shall I put it? This went on my --

2 for about 15 days, I was able to move about freely, that is, sometimes

3 during his shift, we were able to come out -- during his shift, food was

4 also brought in, but my wife, who was an ethnic Serb, could not pass.

5 Q. Right. And your answer to my question as to how you knew him is

6 then that you saw him during these days that you were able to walk around;

7 is that it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And how frequently would you see this individual that you've

10 referred to as Kole?

11 A. We knew the shifts. I knew, for instance, that he was in the

12 shift with the Banovics, with Mr. Milan. That was a young, tall man,

13 almost 2 metres tall, whom I had known from before. He walked around in

14 their company, then specifically I saw him. I had met my -- with my wife,

15 and Milan mediated, and I also had some cigarettes which I had gotten and

16 I shared some with them, and Banovics were also there.

17 Q. My question is not in relation to Milan at the moment. I'm asking

18 you how you know Kole. Did you know him before the war?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So your exposure to Kole was restricted to what you saw at

21 Keraterm; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, of course.

23 Q. Did you obtain information -- just listen to my question before

24 you answer -- did you obtain information from the other detainees

25 concerning Kole as to who he was or what his position was in the camp?

Page 2357

1 A. Well, one could see this, not by inmates only. He was ordering

2 this, ordering that. It is immediately clear who is number one by a

3 series of actions when the lunch was distributed. But all inmates knew

4 who was who. And in those 15 days, there was a number of opportunities

5 for me to learn.

6 Q. All right. Now, sir, I'll come back to Kole in a moment, but I

7 just want to deal now with early -- well, not early July, but a few days

8 before the 24th or 25th of July. Are you aware, to your personal

9 knowledge, that new prisoners were arriving from the Carakovo area?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How did you see that they were arriving? Like, how could you see?

12 A. I saw a group of people. How else is one to say? There were a

13 lot of them. I first saw beating at the scales. We called that area

14 "scales." That is the area where I had been searched. It was intense

15 beating, a mass beating. There were a lot of people, many people.

16 Q. You've told us what you saw. Now I'm going to ask my original

17 question, which is: What was your vantage point; how were you able to

18 see? Were you in the open? Were you in the room?

19 A. In the room. No, we were in the room. We were locked up. We

20 could not go out.

21 Q. Was there some unique construction about the doors in Room 1 where

22 you were an inmate that allowed you to see out?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was that?

25 A. The door and that hall opening was covered with metal bars, I

Page 2358

1 think maybe 7, 8 millimetres thick, spaced 10 to 15 centimetres. So

2 through that opening, you could see out, of course, as much as the width

3 of the opening allowed, depending on what you looked at.

4 Q. And from Room 1 and from these open spaces in the bars, did you

5 have a clear vantage point of the reception area near the weigh scales of

6 Keraterm camp where these people arrived?

7 A. Yes. That was the best vantage point from number 1 to see

8 straight out.

9 Q. Okay, thank you. Now, you've told us, sir, that you saw beating

10 going on, and did these prisoners arrive all in one group or in several

11 groups, or can you tell us about that?

12 A. From what I could see, I think they arrived in two groups. I

13 think that it was on the same day. They did not go into the rooms

14 immediately. They were not assigned to them as the others -- as the

15 inmates -- they were on this pista. This is this concrete, paved area in

16 the middle. They were beaten, constantly beaten, and they would be

17 threatened.

18 Q. Did you understand my question? Who beat the new arrivals on this

19 occasion that you're talking about?

20 A. The guards. It was the guards.

21 Q. Was it only guards that beat these new prisoners or were any

22 people from your room involved somehow?

23 A. Yes, there were two young men, maybe 18, 19 years old. They were

24 singing those -- these Chetnik songs along with them. At one point, I

25 don't know if they were forced or not, one of these two was blond, and the

Page 2359

1 other one was even younger. They were forced. They said, "We had to."

2 Q. Had to what?

3 A. To beat them. They were at the pista a bit to the left, and there

4 was a group of people in a circle and we were -- watching this. All the

5 prisoners saw this. And those two men came out and -- they were hit,

6 blows on the head, back. Those men were sitting down. They were not

7 standing.

8 Q. From what you could see, apart from the beatings, were these new

9 prisoners fed or given water?

10 A. The first days when -- I don't know if there were any men in Room

11 4, but in Room 3, no. I don't know whether there was three -- two, three,

12 four days, but during the first days, no, because we knew when the food

13 arrived. Towards the end, it was 4.00 or 5.00 in the evening. They

14 weren't there when the food was distributed.

15 Q. All right, sir. My question now is: Do you know where these new

16 prisoners were placed ultimately, eventually?

17 A. In number 3. A large number in number 3. Maybe there were some

18 others placed elsewhere, but most of them in number 3. And I know because

19 there had been some men in number 3 before they arrived and then they

20 moved them, because part of these men was also moved to our room, number

21 1, and perhaps even to Room 2. I'm not sure of that. But there were men

22 who had come from Room 3.

23 Q. Men had come from Room 3 and had been placed in your room, and

24 then ultimately these new arrivals, I understand from your evidence, sir,

25 were placed in Room 3; is that correct?

Page 2360

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Page 2361

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, do you recall an evening that you would refer to when you

3 heard a lot of shooting?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us about -- I'm now directing your attention to that

6 evening, if that's clear. Can you tell us what happened that night,

7 leading up to and during the shooting.

8 A. First we heard -- in fact, every vehicle that would come to

9 Keraterm we would recognise. We would recognise it by its engine. And on

10 that occasion an extraordinarily large number of vehicles arrived, and

11 that was kind of like a sixth sense, a sense that some danger was coming.

12 There were headlights, and these headlights lit the entire area, the

13 entire area of Keraterm.

14 Q. Apart from your sixth sense and noticing these additional lights

15 lighting up the area, did you hear anything?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was that?

18 A. Yes. Some commotion. I was part of the reserve force, and I

19 heard the sound which to me sounded like a German-made machine-gun, M-50

20 something, and then there was also like a rattle of automatic weapons and

21 then shouts and footsteps running around. This is all before.

22 Q. Yes. And can you tell us about the incident when there was

23 further shooting? About what time of day was that, or night?

24 A. That was not in daylight. At around 9.00 we had to -- how shall I

25 say? We had to get quiet. So maybe an hour, an hour and a half had

Page 2362

1 elapsed, but we didn't have watches. It wasn't easy to place it in time,

2 and to me it wasn't that important anyway, to us.

3 Q. Right. So moving on to what is important, can you tell us what

4 you heard, sir?

5 A. Shooting. First it was individual shots, individual shots,

6 perhaps even pistol shots, then bursts of fire, smashing of -- breaking of

7 glass. This is what we heard initially. Screams. A horror to us. This

8 is how we felt. People screaming. It was terrible. Noise. But the

9 dominant noise was the automatic weapon fire, and it seemed to us as an

10 eternity.

11 Q. Are you able to put an approximation of what eternity actually

12 probably was in terms of time?

13 A. Well, I don't know. Maybe that most intense shooting, the bursts

14 with the most rounds fired, perhaps 20, 25 minutes. It is very hard for

15 me to say. After that, there were individual shots.

16 Q. All right, sir. I'm going to ask you: Do you know whose shift

17 was on duty the night of what I'm now going to refer to as "the massacre"?

18 A. Mr. Kole's.

19 Q. And how do you come to that conclusion?

20 A. Because I saw him that day. I saw the guards who were part of

21 that shift. I'm sure that is what it was.

22 Q. Do you know approximately what time of the day the shifts changed?

23 A. In the morning, I think -- I think the shift changed around 5.00

24 in the morning. This is what we were interested in. Depending on the

25 commander of the guard, we were allowed or not allowed to go to the

Page 2363

1 toilet. That was as far as Room 1 is concerned, not Room 2. They

2 could -- Room 2 could go at 3.00 or something. I'm only referring to Room

3 1. When you passed 5.00 in the morning, that is apparently when the shift

4 was changing, and we would be let out, three, four at a time.

5 Q. Sir, sir, just one moment. What I'm trying to establish is the

6 times of the shift change. Now, you say that in the morning they would

7 change at 5.00, or thereabouts, in regard to Room 1. Was there a further

8 shift change later in the day or would there only be one shift change per

9 day?

10 A. I don't know that, but I think that a shift lasted 12 hours. I

11 don't know.

12 Q. That's fine. Thank you. Now, sir, this Kole that you've referred

13 to, is that the same individual that you say you saw earlier in the camp

14 when you referred to the beating of the Muslim priest?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you feel, sir, that from your seeing this individual you

17 referred to as Kole in the camp, that you would be able to recognise him

18 in the event that you were to see him again?

19 A. Well, you know, ten years, things change. I assume he was -- he

20 had his hair longer. It was longer then. He was wearing a military

21 uniform, a pistol on the right-hand side, a police baton on the left-hand

22 side. He was fairly thin then. At the toilet I took a good look at him,

23 and to me he was okay. He didn't beat me. He even let me stay on that

24 crate in the toilet. He did not hit me. I explained to him that I

25 couldn't go, and everybody else had to go in, and he let me stay on that

Page 2364

1 crate in that urine and, with your apologies, in that shit.

2 Q. I understand that. You may have lost sight of my question. In

3 the event that you were to see this man again, do you feel that you would

4 be able to recognise him from your association with him in Keraterm some

5 nine years ago? Would you recognise him again if you were to see him?

6 A. I assume that it is that gentleman over there. That is, he

7 changed quite a bit, and I did. He is between two police officers.

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Previous translation continues]... in the

9 previous testimony there was no evidence on how the witness has learned

10 the name of the person that he is attempting to identify.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: But let the witness conclude the answer he was

12 giving, and then, Mr. Ryneveld, we'll determine what he wants to do.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: All I really want to find out from the witness is

14 if he thinks he would recognise him. If he can, let him say so; if he

15 can't, let him say so.

16 JUDGE MAY: He's already purported to identify one of them. He

17 said it was between the guards.

18 MR. RYNEVELD:

19 Q. Are you pointing to the back wall, sir, over there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. There are, by my estimate --

22 A. Between the two police officers. I think that's the gentleman.

23 Q. All right. Counting from right to left, what seat --

24 A. From right to left, yes.

25 Q. And what seat is he occupying?

Page 2365

1 A. From right to left, in the second seat, between two police

2 officers, according to me.

3 Q. Thank you, sir. All right, sir. Now, the following morning --

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Hidic, would you stop for a while.

6 Mr. Ryneveld, the Chamber is consulting.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, will you say, for the record, who

10 was identified by the witness.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, it appears that, for the record, the witness

12 has identified Damir Dosen.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

15 Q. Now, sir, the following day, were you allowed out of your room

16 after this shooting incident?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And I understand, sir, that you saw the loading of bodies onto a

19 truck and then the truck left; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it also fair to say --

22 A. Just a moment. I saw a truck with a canopy. I think it was a

23 civilian truck. I say that because of the canopy. And we saw this. We

24 were facing the wall, that is, that means that we were facing the other

25 way, all day long.

Page 2366

1 Q. Sir, just bear with me for a moment. What I'm trying to do is get

2 the effect of your evidence, sir. I understand that you saw a truck

3 arrive, you saw it with a canopy, and it left. Is it fair to say that you

4 later heard that bodies were placed in that truck; is that correct? You

5 heard from the other prisoners.

6 A. Yes. If you want directly, that man next to me had a small mirror

7 with plastic frame, very thin, four or five millimetres thin. And I

8 warned him because of the reflection of the sun, so he was angling it so

9 we could see what was going on --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, stop the witness when you think

11 you've had enough.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I've tried but, unfortunately, I didn't get an

13 answer to my question.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: He remains your witness.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, he does.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Although that may be a question --

17 MR. RYNEVELD:

18 Q. Witness, some parts of your evidence, you understand, is more

19 significant than others, and if I am wrong, please correct me, but when I

20 suggest something to you and it's correct, we don't necessarily need every

21 detail. I understand that, through a mirror, you were able to see a truck

22 arriving and leaving, and you heard from other prisoners that bodies were

23 loaded onto that truck; is that correct? Am I wrong about that? You are

24 nodding your head, meaning yes, I'm right?

25 A. No, you're not wrong, but the case with the mirror was a moment

Page 2367

1 after it was done, and the story about when and what, that is -- that is

2 something else. But if you want to know what I saw with my own eyes was a

3 wheel, a tyre that was covered in blood. And this I could see from where

4 I was. So that is how much blood there was that I could see that, and it

5 was also on the canopy, if that is what you're after.

6 Q. No. If I was, I would have asked you, sir.

7 Now, I understand, sir, that a couple of days after this incident,

8 you were one of the first people to be allowed out of your room in order

9 to go to the toilet; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do I take it from that that you had not been permitted to leave

12 the room for some period of time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And when you did go to the toilet, did you see into Room 3?

15 A. Room 3, no, I did not go.

16 Q. Sorry, the toilet. What can you tell us about the condition of

17 the toilet, which I understand is next to Room 3; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did you see?

20 A. In addition to urine and faeces, blood, and a mirror that was

21 across from the door, I would check myself to see how I looked. I saw

22 blood, but they did not wash it properly. I saw that there was pieces of

23 hair. I had about five, six minutes. I tried to throw up, but there was

24 nothing to throw up. I felt nausea. I felt sickness.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: It is the time for the break. It would be useful

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Page 2369

1 if we could conclude the examination-in-chief, but --

2 MR. RYNEVELD: I would like to, but do you want me to do that

3 after the break?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: After the break.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Hidic, we are going to adjourn now and return

7 at half past 2.00. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your

8 evidence with anybody, and that includes the members of the Prosecution

9 team.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.

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Page 2370

1 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, will you complete the

3 examination-in-chief.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Now, Witness, just before the lunch break, I was about to ask you,

6 sir, I understand that you were in Keraterm until the 3rd of August when

7 you were put on some buses and taken to Trnopolje; is that correct?

8 THE INTERPRETER: The microphones for the witness are switched

9 off.

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 MR. RYNEVELD:

12 Q. Now, a short period of time before you were taken away, sir, were

13 another group taken away separately?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us about that, please.

16 A. I can say a day before I was taken away, one day before, one of

17 the guards allowed me, probably with the authorisation of the chief of the

18 guards, allowed me to see -- to meet my wife. And as a matter of fact,

19 that is the only guard whom I really know. Those other men, I do not

20 know, hence the confusion. The changes are on a major scale.

21 So my wife brought me some food, two packages of cigarettes, and

22 some medicines, and a change of underwear. And that guard took me to the

23 ramp, to the entrance behind the scales.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the

Page 2371

1 witness said, "Hence, the confusion," and I presume he meant the

2 identification, but this is missing from the transcript.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can this be verified? I think, perhaps,

4 Mr. Ryneveld, if you could get the witness just to repeat what he said.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. The transcript shows "confusion." I think

6 that my learned friend is asking the assumption behind that, but the

7 witness, I don't think, said it, but maybe he did. I will ask the

8 question, although it's not really in response to a question.

9 Q. Sir, when you say, "Those other men I do not know, hence the

10 confusion," what confusion are you referring to?

11 A. I meant the confusion regarding Mr. Kajin, meaning Mr. -- what's

12 his name -- Kole. I was in a rather poor shape. Now, people whom I see

13 here, a major change has occurred. I've changed too. But with Mr. Kole,

14 I was tete-a-tete in the lavatory, and what I told you is all true.

15 At that time, he looked to me slightly different. But he stood

16 next to me. I know he was not as tall, and I know he was relatively fair

17 with somewhat longish hair, military uniform, a pistol in one hand, baton

18 on the other, army boots. And those men here, I recognise the eyes of the

19 gentlemen here.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Vucicevic?

21 A. May I add something?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, because counsel is on his feet, making an

23 objection.

24 A. I apologise.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic.

Page 2372

1 MR. VUCICEVIC: The procedure of identification has already been

2 carried out by the Prosecutor, and the record reflects who was the person

3 identified by this witness.

4 The witness has already testified about identification, about

5 personal characteristic of that witness, and now after a break and after

6 him, you know, reflecting what he might have said, and the colloquy which

7 occurred between Mr. Petrovic and the counsel, I believe this would not be

8 a proper form to identify.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think any identification is being made

10 now, Mr. Vucicevic.

11 Please continue.

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. It was, as a matter of

14 fact, at the invitation of the Court, at my friend's suggestion, that I

15 attempted to clarify what he meant by "confusion." I think it's now clear

16 that he was talking about the confusion about an earlier attempt at

17 identification. I want to leave that, if I may. Unless my friend,

18 Mr. Petrovic, wants to cross-examine later, I propose to move on to my

19 original question, which was, sir:

20 Q. I think you've told us that a guard whom you knew took you to the

21 gate to allow you to receive a package of some items brought to you by

22 your wife. Can you tell us the identity of that guard?

23 A. Yes, I can tell you that. I know him. I know him very well

24 indeed. I've known him for a long time, because I was his teacher.

25 Q. And his name is?

Page 2373

1 A. May I not say his name? If I have to, I will, but I'd rather not,

2 because he might suffer some consequences of that. But if you -- if I

3 must, I will tell you.

4 Q. In any event --

5 A. I'm afraid he might have some problems. Well, then, his name is

6 Milan --

7 Q. I'm not going to ask you his name. On the basis of your

8 explanation, I take it this is a Serb gentleman?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And he was a pupil of yours?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right, sir. Now, you got this package from your wife, and did

13 you have any conversation with this guard concerning something that

14 happened later?

15 A. We talked right away, there, at the ramp.

16 Q. And what did he tell you?

17 A. And he told me that the list of men who were - at least, that is

18 how I gathered - which was on the investigator's desk, that is, upstairs,

19 as you go up the stairs and into the room where we were interrogated, that

20 there was a list. At that time, I didn't really understand what this was,

21 and that my name was not on that list. And I had somewhat mixed feelings

22 about it, but as I was returning, I began to be rather anxious about that

23 list, afraid. I began to think about it, I mean subconsciously. That is,

24 I wasn't happy to think that there was a list, because the knowledge that

25 there was a list somehow rang the bell; that is, I thought of those other

Page 2374

1 lists, calling out men, their disappearance, young men being taken out to

2 work and never coming back. That was the association that I had when this

3 list of men was mentioned, and I felt rather ill at ease.

4 Q. All right. So you were told there was a list, you were concerned

5 about the fact that a list existed, but you were told your name was not on

6 it; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The following day -- what can you tell us what happened the

9 following day in relation to the list?

10 A. There were many policemen arrived, in cars, in vehicles, in

11 buses. We saw that the situation was not an everyday situation, not as

12 before that. Before that, I must say, we cleaned the rooms. We were even

13 allowed to bathe.

14 Q. Can I just interrupt you? Perhaps I didn't state my question

15 clearly. The following day --

16 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. You were quite clear, but I want to describe

17 the situation as it was then, because it was of major importance for me

18 and those who were inside.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just answer the question that counsel asks. He

20 knows why he's asking the question. And don't offer any further

21 explanations or any further descriptions unless the Court requires it of

22 you.

23 MR. RYNEVELD:

24 Q. I understand, sir, that you wanted to tell us that preparations

25 were made to clean the room and to leave the camp, but in the course of

Page 2375

1 that, at some point did you count something? Did something happen that

2 made you personally count something? And if so, what happened? Tell us

3 about that incident. That's what I'm directing your mind to now, please.

4 A. Well, that morning, that morning, around 8.00 or 9.00,

5 thereabouts, so these buses and cars arrived, and so on and so forth, and

6 they began to call men out from a list. And since I knew that I wasn't on

7 the list, and with that feeling, with that anxiety and all the rest, when

8 they started to call out -- and it was somebody outside who was calling

9 out people outside Room 1, or perhaps a bit further away - I don't know

10 who that was - but men were called out from that list. Men were called

11 out. And when all the men had been called out, they boarded a bus and

12 they were the first ones to leave Keraterm. Naturally, the place was

13 teeming with police, with troops.

14 Then to our room, and I'm now talking about Room 1, an officer

15 entered - I think he was Captain First Class, whom I do not know - and

16 roughly, roughly said the following: "The rest of you are innocent.

17 You're free, and you'll go to Trnopolje."

18 Q. All right. When the list of names was read out, did you

19 personally keep count?

20 A. Yes. I counted, I believe other people kept count too, but

21 knowing that I was not on the list I suppose I was in such a state of mind

22 so that I counted 126 people, I think that is the exact figure, even

23 though, according to your papers, it's 129. But I counted 126 men,

24 including ...

25 Q. Now, after this man said the rest of you are innocent, you're free

Page 2376

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Page 2377

1 to go, we're taking you to Trnopolje, or words to that effect, were you,

2 in fact, loaded on buses and taken to Trnopolje?

3 A. Well, after a while, but, yes, we boarded the buses.

4 Q. The bottom line is that you got on buses, you were taken to

5 Trnopolje, and you stayed at Trnopolje until the 13th of August 1992; is

6 that correct?

7 A. It is. It is.

8 Q. A couple more very basic questions, sir. How heavy were you when

9 you were taken prisoner on the 23rd of June and taken to Keraterm? What

10 was your body weight?

11 A. 109, 110 kilograms, something about that, 109, 110.

12 Q. What was your body weight when you were released?

13 A. Well, about 66, 67, and as my wife cleaned me, she said, Now

14 you've lost another kilogram.

15 Q. Is that because of the absence of food at the camp?

16 A. Generally speaking, yes. In the beginning, in the beginning, I

17 could not eat. I could not drink or -- could not either drink or eat

18 because I was all swollen, my teeth and everything, and I was all black.

19 I had wounds on my body and even worms, worms began to appear, some dark

20 and then some white and long, and then a doctor who was next to me, he

21 said if it's white worms your organism will manage to fend off, but for

22 about 15 days, I only drank water as much as I could for about 15 or 16

23 days.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, witness. Would you answer my learned

25 friends, please.

Page 2378

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.

2 Mr. Greaves.

3 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

5 Q. Mr. Hidic, is this your first time here in The Hague?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And I imagine you are looking forward to going home, are you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Well, you can help me and you can help yourself to get home

10 quicker and we're going to do a deal about the questions I'm going to ask

11 you; is that all right?

12 A. I shall be happy to.

13 Q. The deal is this, Mr. Hidic: I'm going to ask you, for about 20,

14 25 minutes some questions. Listen carefully to what I ask you and answer

15 the question and then you'll get home that much quicker. Is that a fair

16 deal?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. Right. Let's see how we get on. The school at which you were a

19 teacher, is this correct that it functioned effectively right up until the

20 end of May 1992, just before the serious trouble started? Is that a fair

21 proposition?

22 A. More or less.

23 Q. And --

24 A. No, I apologise. How do you mean "worked"?

25 Q. In the sense that you and your colleagues kept on going to work,

Page 2379

1 the students kept on coming, I have no doubt the tensions were rising, but

2 as far as possible, you tried to maintain a normal existence for yourself,

3 your colleagues, and the students; is that fair?

4 A. No. No.

5 Q. During the course of that month of May 1992, were there meetings

6 which were taking place amongst the staff and discussions as to what was

7 happening?

8 A. No. That is, at that time, there was a meeting of the faculty of

9 the teachers together with the school council, which is a kind of a

10 steering board, and the principal -- and the principal, the former

11 principal. There was a change and another man was appointed. I was

12 present at the meeting, but I didn't attend other meetings.

13 Q. Help us about this: The staff was, I think, something in the

14 region of 130 teachers; is that right?

15 A. Yes, with auxiliary staff. I wouldn't know exactly, but with the

16 auxiliary staff, it should be, yes, thereabouts.

17 Q. And is it right that the staff were drawn from all the ethnic

18 backgrounds that existed in the Prijedor district?

19 A. Except the Romany, everybody else.

20 Q. And that included Muslims, Croats and I think Ukranians and there

21 is a Ukrainian population in Prijedor; is that right?

22 A. And Serbs. And Serbs.

23 Q. And --

24 A. That is, first came Muslims, then Serbs, then Croats, Ukranians --

25 well, it's difficult for those who are in that area. One knows who is

Page 2380

1 Catholic, who is not. Well, those people know, so it was here or there,

2 but there are Ukranians by origin and what their option was, and who they

3 said they were, that is their business.

4 Q. And would this be correct that, of those teachers, about 30 per

5 cent were Serb by ethnicity?

6 A. We didn't count, but that is roughly the -- their share. You must

7 understand that until 1989, until 1989, that is practically until

8 Gazimestan, that is when the situation in our area began to get

9 complicated. Those in that area, they know, then began altercations. We

10 simply did not count. How shall I put it? If you have a school, if you

11 work in a school -- I worked in Omarska; I mean, those children were the

12 same to me as those in Kozarac because I did the same kind of work, the

13 same kind of effort, and that pupil invested a great deal of effort to

14 also learn something, to be trained, because they were learning some

15 mechanical trades or some technical trades, and it really wasn't that

16 important. It wasn't in the foreground.

17 But I think that, yes, the share was roughly that one, but we

18 never counted one another. There was no such thing.

19 Q. Can I turn now, please, to your arrival at Keraterm camp,

20 Mr. Hidic. Two things: You weren't beaten and you weren't interrogated

21 at that time. You weren't interrogated immediately upon your arrival.

22 A. I don't understand the question. Would you be specific, please.

23 Q. Of course. Upon your arrival at Keraterm camp, you were not, at

24 that time, interrogated; you were interrogated after you'd been there for

25 some time?

Page 2381

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. Amongst those who were obviously the officials and authorities in

3 the camp, were you able to observe that there were a large number of

4 different uniforms being worn by those people?

5 A. Well, there were parts of -- some would wear, for instance --

6 Mr. Kajin, whom I remember such as I knew him at that time, he, for

7 instance, had a red cap, a beret, a short undershirt, military trousers,

8 and I believe trainers.

9 Mr. Kole, whom I remember, had a military uniform, one summer

10 uniform, boots, pistol on the one hand, truncheon on the other, and I

11 don't remember these things about Mr. Kajin. That is true. Other

12 soldiers, for instance this pupil of mine, he, for instance, wore a

13 military uniform.

14 Now, there were some soldiers, say -- well, that is not that I was

15 accustomed to in the army which I respected for 20 years. I was in its

16 reserve and -- so I hope I've answered your question.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, just answer the question directly and,

18 Mr. Greaves, I would urge you to stop the witness when you have had your

19 answer.

20 MR. GREAVES: I'm grateful. I don't like to intervene, because in

21 the last trial I did, I was accused of harassing witnesses when I tried to

22 cut them short, so I'm a bit sensitive about that.

23 Q. Mr. Hidic, you've just been talking about your service in the

24 JNA. Did you get the -- when you were in the JNA, what sort of unit were

25 you in? Infantry, artillery, what?

Page 2382

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Which --

3 A. Artillery. Artillery. I spent three months in Vranje, six months

4 I attended a course in Strumica, and then from Strumica, which is in

5 Macedonia, next to the Bulgarian border, between Bulgaria and Macedonia,

6 and from there, I went back to Vranje.

7 Q. Mr. Hidic, it's fascinating, but I don't need your life history,

8 all right? What I do want to ask you is --

9 A. This is what you asked me.

10 Q. All right. Just take it easy. When you were in the JNA, I have

11 no doubt the JNA was a well-organised, well-disciplined force, is that

12 fair, and you were proud to be a part of your artillery unit? Is that

13 right?

14 A. This is a comprehensive question and I don't think I have time to

15 respond to it now, because you have to have some patience if you want the

16 real answer.

17 JUDGE MAY: Please. It was a straightforward question.

18 Mr. Greaves, don't bother with this sort of question.

19 MR. GREAVES: Well, I'm trying to get one point, and if you'll

20 just -- just bear with me, please.

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, let's get on; that's all.

22 MR. GREAVES: Yes.

23 Q. By comparison with when you were in the army, the people who were

24 in all these different uniforms in the camp, did you have the impression

25 that they were nowhere near as organised and smart as you had been when

Page 2383

1 you were in the artillery in the JNA, Mr. Hidic?

2 A. For what they were involved in, that is, their jobs, they were,

3 because I would not have engaged in it.

4 Q. And were you, as you watched them doing their jobs, unimpressed

5 with the way in which they were organised, unimpressed with the way in

6 which they were dressed? Is that fair?

7 A. For me, this is a tangential question, but let me answer it

8 anyway. No. I don't know why you're asking.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just answer the question. Never mind why he's

10 asking it. If he's not to ask it, we will make that determination.

11 Please give an answer as simply as possible.

12 A. Will you please ask it again.

13 MR. GREAVES: I'm going to move on.

14 Q. Mr. Hidic, when you were interrogated later on, you knew who the

15 people who were interrogating you were. Was it just one person or more

16 than one person?

17 A. Just one person. Two persons were present and one interrogated

18 me.

19 Q. And was it the person that you knew who was asking the questions?

20 A. Yes. We knew each other, relatively speaking, by sight and

21 through family. Let's say it was sort of a wider circle of acquaintances.

22 Q. And did the questions involve whether you had been involved in

23 politics, whether you had been involved in military activity, whether you

24 knew of the activities of extremists and things like that? Would that be

25 a fair summary of what you were asked?

Page 2384

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Page 2385

1 A. He asked me whether I had weapons, whether I was a member of the

2 SDA, where were you, who is your neighbour, what did you do while you were

3 in the house, do you know --

4 Q. The answer, in fact, is yes?

5 A. I haven't finished. I haven't finished. Did I know Medunjanin,

6 did I know this so-and-so. I was not a local. I was born in another

7 town. I knew a lot of people by sight, those who were around town, that

8 is. So it was long questioning, 45 minutes. That was a long questioning

9 compared to the others, because he asked me to explain certain things.

10 For instance, he asked me whether I was pro-Yugoslav.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

12 Mr. Greaves, continue.

13 MR. GREAVES:

14 Q. Mr. Hidic, it's right, isn't it, that you were not beaten during

15 the course of this interrogation?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Was it a guard who collected you and took you to the

18 interrogation?

19 A. The guard was a young soldier, fair-haired, tall, good-looking,

20 with a rifle. He brought me and then he took me back.

21 Q. And is that the only part that he played in that exercise?

22 A. He brought me in and brought me back; that's all.

23 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, my attention has been drawn to the

24 transcript. I heard the answer to the question as to whether he was

25 beaten or not during the course of the interrogation that he indicated

Page 2386

1 that he had not been, and I hope that's my learned friend's recollection.

2 The answer has come up to my question as a no.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: What part of the transcript?

4 MR. GREAVES: If you look at 15:04:28 and the answer thereto, Your

5 Honour.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can this be verified? Mr. Ryneveld?

7 MR. RYNEVELD: The difficulty is the way I think the question is

8 phrased with a "not" in there, when the witness says "no" to a "not." My

9 understanding is the witness was not beaten during the interrogation.

10 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. I'm grateful to my learned

11 friend.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You did not follow the thing very

13 well. I was only beaten one night, and after that, I was not even

14 touched. I stated that even before, and I know what you have in front of

15 you. So I was not beaten any more.

16 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Mr. Hidic.

17 Q. I want to turn now to the issue of who was in command of the

18 camp. You were told who the camp commander was; that's correct, isn't it?

19 A. Yes. They mentioned Sikirica, but I never knew the man. Some

20 people said that he had died. No. I heard that while I was in the

21 apartment, that that person who was there had died. And then when I came

22 to the camp after I don't know how much time, I learned that some person

23 named Sikirica was the camp commander. I even now do not know, and I

24 never saw him, and I don't see quite well. I would need glasses,

25 eyeglasses. But I did not know him and I didn't see him on the pista, and

Page 2387

1 in the condition that I was in, the condition of my health, I was not in a

2 position to identify --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question you were asked was whether you were

4 told who the camp commander was.

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Yes. We have that answer. Please

7 proceed.

8 MR. GREAVES:

9 Q. And what you told the Prosecutor in 1998 was that you couldn't

10 remember his name but that you thought he had died of a heart attack.

11 That's correct, isn't it?

12 A. That is a part. This is an excerpt. This is a part of my

13 statement. It is a part of my statement, and it's not relevant for the

14 Tribunal, but I know who died and who the person was who died. But we are

15 not going to go into that. But in the camp --

16 Q. Mr. Hidic, was the man who died called Zivko Knezevic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And is that someone who you had heard of before the war?

19 A. As far as Zivko Knezevic is concerned, I kind of knew him by

20 sight. I think that he had worked for the police. He was an older man,

21 maybe 60 years old. I don't know exactly. He was frequently to be seen

22 on the corso, the main drag. This is as much as I knew about him.

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Hidic, shortly before your release from Keraterm,

24 or shortly before leaving Keraterm, it's correct that the Serbs released

25 all those people who they had managed to detain who were older than 60 or

Page 2388

1 younger than 15. Do you recall that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I want to ask you now about the day when everybody departed from

4 Keraterm. You've spoken about a Captain First Class who you saw during

5 the course of that day. It's right, isn't it, that he also was the one

6 who read out the list of names of those who were to go to Omarska? Do you

7 recall that?

8 A. No, and that is not how it's stated. That's not what you have.

9 He just entered Room 1 and he had said what I have said he said. And the

10 reading out of the 126 names, we all had to get. That took place

11 somewhere in the area between Rooms 1 and 2. I don't know who it was who

12 was reading out those names and I never saw this person. I was somewhere

13 in the middle, somewhere in the area where I was sleeping. And this

14 Captain First Class just said, "You are now free. You are going to be

15 going to Trnopolje." And I think that that is what you have.

16 Q. Do you remember talking to a gentleman called Ross in September of

17 last year, Mr. Hidic, Ross Arden?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you remember telling him and signing a statement in which you

20 said, "On the morning of the 3rd of August an army Captain First Class

21 called out 126 names of prisoners. I do not know his name. These

22 prisoners were put on buses and left the camp." Do you remember telling

23 him that and signing a statement to that effect?

24 A. I remember. I signed it and I remember it, but that's not how it

25 was, because later on, I reconsidered it, and I did sign it and I said

Page 2389

1 that this is how it was, and the others will also corroborate this.

2 Q. If it wasn't right, why did you put it in the statement,

3 Mr. Hidic?

4 A. Because the time was very short, the time of his questioning. His

5 questioning was together with another questioning, and we were making

6 excerpts and I think what you have, it's somewhere on page 5 or 6, there

7 was some discrepancy in the interpretation and then transferring to the

8 computer, and that's what happened by the time I got back the materials.

9 But the facts are there, because that is it. I see no reason about those

10 126 people. I didn't need to. I did not need to say something else. But

11 I think that there was some misunderstanding, some miscommunication.

12 Q. You did, of course, sign an acknowledgment at the end of the

13 statement, saying that the statement had been read over to you in your

14 language and that it was true to the best of your knowledge and

15 recollection.

16 A. Yes, something like that, yes. And I made corrections when I

17 reviewed the documents and compared to my recollection. Now, more of that

18 is coming up, and also eight years have gone by.

19 Q. Recollection not very good after eight years, nine years; is that

20 part of the problem?

21 A. Some things, and I was being honest here; some things yes, but

22 other things I will never forget. And some other things - how shall I put

23 it? If you're going to rely on it, they're fading, because the human mind

24 is trying to push aside. It is a defence of sorts. Some things are

25 fading, and I personally only manage two hours of sleep a night. That is

Page 2390

1 also true. Don't misunderstand me. I'm also saying this because of these

2 people that are sitting over there, that they could learn something.

3 Q. Just one final question, Mr. Hidic, and it's quite simple, so

4 listen to it and answer it as quickly as you can. You also told Ross

5 Arden in September of last year that you didn't know Sikirica and didn't

6 know him as the camp commander. Do you accept that?

7 A. Not in that way. I did not know him personally. I did not see

8 him. That is the difference between -- this is how one has to distinguish

9 about interpretation and - how shall I put it? It is natural that I would

10 hear in the camp that Sikirica was the commander. Who was the chief of

11 shift, this is what one learns. These are -- and it was in that sense

12 that I said that I had not known him, and I don't think that I would have

13 recognised him now, nor do I think that I would have known him.

14 Q. Mr. Hidic, the phrase, sentence, "I did not know Sikirica, I did

15 not know him as the camp commander," that is quite a simple pair of

16 sentences, isn't it, and I suggest extremely difficult to mistranslate

17 something like that. Isn't that right?

18 A. I don't know, but that is what I had in mind when I said, and this

19 is what I had in mind before. And trust me, for anyone who had spent a

20 couple of days there, that person knew, knew who was a shift commander,

21 and those people who were born there, they know who was there, because

22 there were peers, they were all born there. To me, all that -- perhaps it

23 was not interpreted well, but one million per cent, that was it. And it

24 all has --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... Answer, yes.

Page 2391

1 MR. GREAVES: I think I've finished.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves. Mr. Rodic.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] May it please the Court.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hidic.

8 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Rodic.

9 Q. I listened to you and I noticed a problem, that is, that you have

10 a lot to say, and the time here is limited. So what we are trying to do

11 is really to cull what is the most significant, both my friends from the

12 Prosecution and on this side of the bench too, and I know that you can

13 speak at length about what the subject is here today.

14 When you were answering the Prosecutor's questions earlier, he

15 asked you about the situation in 1992, what it was like. However, my

16 question to you would be more specific: Can you clarify for us when did

17 these divisions between ethnic groups in Bosnia start? Was that in 1992

18 or did it start somewhat earlier?

19 A. I think that you are aware that these are -- that you are casting

20 your net wide. I don't know, the people around here may not be fully

21 aware of this. As you know, the division started much earlier. In my

22 case, the sense that I had was that as early as my army days, that's when

23 it started.

24 Q. Please, let us not go that far back, and there are individual

25 cases perhaps, but let's talk about the national-based or ethnic-based

Page 2392

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Page 2393

1 parties. Was it at that time that these disruptions really took hold?

2 A. No, no, no. It started earlier. And I think that you are aware

3 of them. Shall I explain it for you?

4 Q. I think that we have an understanding, you and I, but it's a very

5 long story.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said that you did your national service in Vranje Strumica?

8 A. And then back to Vranje, yes.

9 Q. And it was the artillery?

10 A. Yes. And I ended up as a lance corporal.

11 Q. You also said that you spent quite a bit of time with the reserve

12 force, some 20 years, exercises?

13 A. Yes. As a reservist, and then five, six -- I was an instructor of

14 the recruits for target practice for five or six years.

15 Q. And what was that unit, the reserve unit that you were in?

16 A. That was the Banja Luka regiment. It was the Prijedor battalion.

17 I had a fellow friend from Petrovac who was involved.

18 Q. Could you now tell us about the discipline, and if you can make a

19 comparison between the active-duty military and the reserve force. Was

20 there a difference between the two?

21 A. You mean at the time when I served?

22 Q. Yes, and then later on when you were on the reserve force. Can we

23 say that, as far as discipline was concerned, that it was more lax, shall

24 we put it, in comparison to what it was when you served --

25 A. You know what? I was the commanding officer for quite a while for

Page 2394

1 my reserve battalion.

2 Q. I am just asking you in general.

3 A. As far as general matters are concerned, when there was real

4 target practice, and these exercises with preparations lasted for 10, 15

5 days, that was fairly disciplined, like in the regular army.

6 Q. You also said that you went to work until, I think, 24th of May.

7 A. I think it was 25th or 26th. It was a Friday, I believe, Friday

8 or Monday. It can be calculated from the date.

9 Q. Until then, were you able to go to work without problems?

10 A. I'm sorry, but where are you from? You know my data, but I want

11 to know yours. I am from Sarajevo. Last ten, 15 days, Mr. Rodic, you

12 could already sense the takeover of the television relay on Mrakovica, the

13 cutting off of the Sarajevo television and then patching it up to Banja

14 Luka, and then of a sea change in programming on Radio Prijedor. If that

15 is what you're referring to, that's what it was.

16 Q. I was just thinking between home and work.

17 A. I don't know how they were calling them, barriers or -- one was

18 manned by Serbs, the other by us Bosniaks, and then the police was

19 regrouping. One wanted this, the other one wanted that. I did not -- my

20 field of interest was different. I wasn't going into that. I was more

21 into sociology, music, sports, arts.

22 Q. You said that on the 23rd of June, you were arrested around 7.00

23 p.m., that your child notified you?

24 A. Yes. The child came up and then I went down.

25 Q. You also mentioned a policeman named Strika?

Page 2395

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was that an active duty police officer?

3 A. For a while he was active. I don't know at that point, but he --

4 he would stop me quite a few -- he stopped me quite a few times to check

5 me and my vehicle. Even on the eve of war, whether I had a first aid kit,

6 all that stuff, to see whether my vehicle was in good order. But for a

7 good period of time, he was an active duty police officer and he was

8 wearing this active duty police officer uniform.

9 Q. I need to follow the transcript.

10 A. Please take your time.

11 Q. So you said 1900 hours.

12 A. Two hours.

13 Q. You were able to follow the time by your watch?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You waited for two hours to be questioned, that is, for someone to

16 talk to you and then Strika invited you -- called you into another room?

17 A. No. Strika told me, "Sit down and wait." And then my wife

18 arrived from the apartment and she joined me, and she was there with me

19 until Strika took me. The first was the duty room, duty desk, and then

20 there was -- next to it was a small room. He took my identity card, took

21 down my name. I don't know if he took down any other information on the

22 piece of paper, and then I sat down. So then we went to the car.

23 Q. So two hours later, you left the SUP building?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. According to you, after you overheard the conversation in the

Page 2396

1 vehicle; Omarska, Keraterm, and then eventually you were taken to

2 Keraterm, do you know who it was that decided that?

3 A. Strika, because the other soldier was younger. He was junior, so

4 Strika decided it. He also decided that in respect of Ms. Suada Ramic and

5 she, indeed, spent the night at Keraterm. I don't know what happened to

6 her afterwards. This is based on the other people's stories.

7 Q. When you spoke about the person who met you at Keraterm --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- I'll say it and then you just tell me whether this is right or

10 not. In the transcript, in the record, during the main examination, that

11 is, you said in respect of this man as follows: "I am not sure that I

12 would be able to recognise him now because I could still -- I would still

13 not be able to recognise due to all the time that has passed."

14 A. And other circumstances, not knowing people.

15 Q. Please, we are running into a technical problem if you keep

16 interrupting me.

17 A. My apologies.

18 Q. Let me repeat this.

19 A. My apologies again.

20 Q. So what you said was this: "I am not sure that I would be able to

21 recognise him now because I still wouldn't be able to recognise him. I

22 think that this was Mr. Kajin. I think that this is what he was called."

23 Is this what you said?

24 A. In that sense, no. That's not what I said. I said that Namik had

25 asked me --

Page 2397

1 Q. I'll come to that. This is just an introductory question.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then when the Prosecutor asked you, you described that man and

4 said that he was short, I think about 186?

5 A. Thereabouts.

6 Q. Fat, short-sleeved T-shirt, military uniform, military uniform,

7 about 176 centimetres tall, fat, wearing a red cap, rather rounded off

8 face. Did not beat anyone at the entrance; is that correct?

9 A. Did not beat me. I wasn't beaten at the entrance. But the

10 description had to do with his uniform rather than his -- that is at least

11 how, in the semi-darkness, I --

12 Q. This is how you described it to the Prosecutor, and I'm only

13 asking you to check it.

14 A. Yes, yes, you're quite right.

15 Q. You also, when asked by the Prosecutor, said that other prisoners

16 were the ones who had told you that it was Kajin, more specifically,

17 Mr. Namik, your friend whom you knew from before.

18 A. He asked me, yes, "What did Kajin ask you?"

19 Q. When you entered Room 1 and saw Mr. Namik there, can you tell me,

20 in view of the size of the room, which part of it was Mr. Namik and --

21 A. And you tell me I have no time for a broader explanation.

22 Q. No. There is no time, and we know the size of the room.

23 A. Right. Right. Right. I'll tell you clearly. About the middle

24 of the room to the left, there's a radiator next to it, a narrow window

25 which could be opened, a glass with metal frame. And Namik lay there,

Page 2398

1 then Edhem Susic next to him, and then this sequence of sleeping was kept

2 throughout. Then a man called Islamovic and ...

3 Q. Very well. Tell me, when you entered, did you find him lying in

4 that place?

5 A. He was crouching.

6 Q. Crouching?

7 A. Yes. And there was no room for me to sit down, I stood. I don't

8 know if the gentlemen know what crouching means or squatting.

9 Q. They do. And between Mr. Namik and the door, between Mr. Namik,

10 that is, where he squatted and the entrance door, were there people there,

11 and how many, approximately?

12 A. Well, I don't know, 100, 80, I didn't count them. I didn't know

13 where I'd entered, but roughly, roughly give or take in that part. I'm

14 completely at sea now, but I was taken aback to see that it was so packed,

15 that there was no room for me.

16 Q. You mean squatted, crouching, sitting?

17 A. Yes, sitting, squatting, and that silence.

18 Q. And tell me, during your stay in the camp at Keraterm, did you

19 ever witness medical aid being extended to somebody or a physician coming

20 to examine somebody during your stay there?

21 A. Namik urged with somebody, because I was in a poor shape, that I

22 should go to a doctor, that I should go somewhere. But -- and I don't

23 know who said, "Just throw him out." At that time, I was unconscious and

24 that is what Namik told me and Mr. Islamovic also said that. He is

25 Mirsad. He is lawyer from the Ljubija mine. I also know him from around

Page 2399

1 the town. We were not friends.

2 Q. Very well. We keep talking about some -- we are talking about

3 measures; could you tell me how tall are you?

4 A. 183 -- no, well, I am getting on in age so I must have -- I must

5 have become shorter by a couple of millimetres.

6 Q. Could you tell me approximately, without those five or six

7 millimetres that you less [as interpreted], on the day that you arrived in

8 Keraterm, the person who called you out and sent you to Room 1, was he

9 shorter than you are, taller, or more or less your height?

10 A. Well, he could have been slightly shorter perhaps. And he was

11 below me, and there is a slight slope and he was standing below me.

12 That's perhaps a mistake, but thereabouts, perhaps slightly lower,

13 perhaps. But my feeling was he was fatter, that he had round cheeks.

14 That is the feeling that I got.

15 Q. When you mentioned just now that there was a confusion or a

16 mistake, could you tell us why did you say that? Did somebody tell you

17 that there was a confusion or a mistake?

18 A. No, I don't know what you're referring to.

19 Q. When you said -- when you mentioned the situation about some

20 people and the identification, the identification after the break, you

21 answered a question that there had been a confusion or a mistake. And my

22 question was to you: How is it that you became aware of that confusion or

23 perhaps a mistake? Did somebody tell you something?

24 A. Do you know how this confusion arose, what I think? I agree,

25 accept that I was mistaken, that I don't know those people. It is a

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1 fact.

2 Q. But just be brief.

3 A. Because with this Mr. Kole, I was in the loo, one on one, and

4 Mr. Kole is shorter than I am, could be 10, 15 or as much as 15

5 centimetres, fair hair. That is somehow a picture I retained in my head,

6 not particularly thick hair. Yes, it is true I am slightly colour-blind,

7 but to me fair hair, that is how I saw it; disheveled and slightly longer

8 with that description that I gave.

9 Now, it was ten years ago and that is from when I was at a

10 distance of half a metre from him. And I know it was Kole, that is, I

11 knew the shifts. Everybody had fled. I couldn't flee because -- so that

12 is the picture that I retain.

13 And that man, well, perhaps I could give them a better look.

14 Perhaps, of course, I should -- I made a mistake. Perhaps I should have

15 stood up. But I am saying what I have said, they should have stood up so

16 that I see how tall they are, and for me to come closer to them. Because

17 at that distance, I don't really see well. And that is my answer true and

18 proper. So that is a mistake in the identification. I did make this

19 mistake. I own up to it.

20 Q. My question was very short, if you can give me a short answer.

21 Now, you told me about this but when you became aware of your mistake, did

22 somebody tell you this was a mistake?

23 A. No, I realised it straight away.

24 Q. Straight away?

25 A. Do you want me to explain it to you?

Page 2402

1 Q. No. No. You don't have to explain it to us, you've already done

2 that.

3 A. Very well.

4 Q. Since we were talking about that, could you tell me -- since we

5 are at it, could you tell me how tall am I?

6 A. Well, you could be close to 190 I should say -- well, give or

7 take. Yes, I'd say 190, perhaps even more.

8 Q. Do you know somebody called Zigic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you used to see him around the camp?

11 A. I did not see him because he stood on me. And I wouldn't be able

12 to identify him, to recognise him, but he stood on me. And if you want me

13 to, I'll explain how. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor should have asked me that. How

14 is it that he stood on me?

15 Q. Do you know a person named Tomo Prodan?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know a man called Fustar?

18 A. Yes, by name, but not what he looks like. Perhaps I knew his

19 father, perhaps, maybe. Perhaps his father was a Montenegrin, maybe.

20 Q. Tell us: When you mentioned Zigic, could you describe him to us,

21 tell us what he looked like, if you remember? If you don't, then never

22 mind.

23 A. I did not see him well. I mean, I saw him in Trnopolje, in

24 Trnopolje, during an incident when he wanted to slit somebody's throat and

25 then guards came. They were less than five metres away from me. Well,

Page 2403

1 shortish, with somewhat receding hair, dirty. Next to that old one, that

2 is where I saw him, and in Keraterm, because he did come, and he used to

3 come during the period of time when I was very weak. Perhaps at first he

4 was outside, in front of the entrance, and on one occasion he was in the

5 room. But then again, he had pushed us all, the whole lot of us, to an

6 area about ten metres, and somebody threw a blanket or something over me

7 and he literally stood on me. And he fired shots, not at men; at this

8 metal contraption there. I think somebody was wounded because of this

9 metal beam or something. He did not fire at men on that occasion. And I

10 believe he was drunk then.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please move on.

12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. So it all happened in Trnopolje?

14 A. No, no, no. In Keraterm. The first case that I described was in

15 Trnopolje, when we arrived in Trnopolje, the second or the third day after

16 our arrival. But the first case, that is, when he stood on me, when

17 people covered me up because they could not carry me or take me away, as

18 it all happened very quick, and when he stood on me, that was in Keraterm,

19 sometime in night hours. It could have been 11.00, half past. We didn't

20 have watches because they had seized them.

21 Q. Very well. And tell us, was he alone on that occasion or was he

22 with somebody else?

23 A. He was alone. And that door was usually locked. I don't know

24 which shift was on duty, but the door was normally locked, so somebody had

25 let him in.

Page 2404

1 Q. Yes, but we must proceed. We must move on.

2 A. Yes, please do.

3 Q. The man called Duca whom you mentioned, could you describe him to

4 us?

5 A. I saw him once in daytime, but generally speaking, I did not see

6 him. I saw him when he beat me. How shall I put this? After all that

7 foul language. And specifically, I remember his army trousers, to begin

8 with, his trainers, and a powerfully-built man, I mean physically strong,

9 of about my height, give or take. Not long hair, no cap. The upper

10 part, I don't know what he had. And I just gleaned him once in daytime,

11 because we all fled when he appeared.

12 Q. When you mentioned brothers Banovic, I remembered -- I remembered

13 you said a metre and something.

14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] The witness said a metre and a razor

15 blade.

16 Q. I understand that, but could you please explain to us better what

17 they looked like?

18 A. Well, they looked the same to me, even of the same height. They

19 had long black hair. And that night the hair was loose, but at times they

20 had it in a ponytail. A military uniform. Physically? Well, I don't

21 know whether that look that I cast at them was realistic, because it's not

22 really -- my sight wasn't at its best, and their blows were not

23 really -- I mean, I know what a blow is, but I think it was amateurish.

24 And when they came -- they also came to Trnopolje, and my children -- my

25 elder daughter recognised them because there was a kindergarten where they

Page 2405

1 lived, and the wife. I think one of them made some coffee. But I didn't

2 know them. And one of them made coffee.

3 Q. And is it then true that they looked alike, that both of them had

4 long hair which was at times tied in a ponytail, isn't it?

5 A. Well, yes, roughly. They changed from time to time. For

6 instance, when my wife came, when my wife came, he was in that hut to the

7 left as I come out from my room and walk to the ramp. He was there with

8 Mr. Milorad, but I don't know which one.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Your Honours --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, it's time for the break.

12 Mr. Hidic, we are going to take a break until 10 minutes after

13 4.00. During the adjournment you are not to discuss the evidence with

14 anybody, including the members of the Prosecution team.

15 Mr. Rodic, before we leave, how much longer will your

16 cross-examination be? I'm asking because obviously it would be in the

17 interests of everybody, and in particular the interests of the witness, if

18 we were to conclude his testimony today, because we take the Easter break

19 until Monday, the 23rd, I think.

20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I fully understand this. No, I

21 will not take much longer after the break.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Don't worry about my travel and what

23 I will do. If the Court needs me and if they need me, we are here to

24 arrive at the truth and so that what happened does not happen again.

25 We -- that is why all of us, why we are all here today, including those

Page 2406

1 men up there. This is the foremost thing in my mind.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the adjournment now until ten minutes

3 after 4.00. Thank you.

4 --- Recess taken at 3.53 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, notwithstanding the witness's generous

7 offer to return after the Easter break, we are trying to finish, to

8 conclude the evidence today.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this is what will

10 happen, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Hidic, a short while ago, I think you mentioned a kiosk as a

12 hut at the entrance of the camp.

13 A. I did mention a structure that was next to the scales, the weigh

14 scales, next to the -- which is when you entered through the gate to the

15 right. It was brick at the bottom and some metal structure and that's

16 where I spoke on the telephone on the next to last day. And there was

17 also a kiosk that was, during the last period, a bit closer to Room 1

18 where I brought a pack of Lords cigarettes. But that was in the last

19 period of my stay there, and I don't know what was there before.

20 Q. Does that mean that this one kiosk which you observed was

21 somewhere between Room 1 and this weigh scales, as you put it?

22 A. Yes, but that was in the sort of the last period. I think that it

23 was brought in subsequent. I don't recall. But this is where I -- it was

24 in this, inside this kiosk. There was six or seven of them there and I

25 gave them a pack of Lords cigarettes.

Page 2407

1 Q. Can you now tell me, at the very entrance near that moveable gate,

2 was there also some kind of a little hut or a kiosk?

3 A. It seems to me that there was something to the left, but I'm not

4 sure, near that moveable gate. But I spoke to my wife there and there was

5 another commander of the guard there. Perhaps there was some change that

6 had happened, and there may have been some change there, and he allowed

7 this. So this soldier requested that I be allowed to talk to my wife and

8 it was -- it could have been something then.

9 Q. So it is also possible that there was some small kiosk-type

10 structure there?

11 A. I don't recall. But there was some kind of a structure, perhaps

12 not a kiosk.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. There was some kind of a structure to the left as you entered,

15 perhaps a metre or so away at the very entrance.

16 Q. Now, let me ask you something, because I noticed that during your

17 examination-in-chief when answering a question by the Prosecutor, you said

18 this and then I think you were interrupted. You said that your wife was

19 an ethnic Serb.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the way you said it, I understood you to have said that -- you

22 said that you had had some kind of a problem because of that, or was there

23 a problem in her coming, or was there a problem with her coming to see

24 you? Could you explain something about that situation that you had.

25 A. Yes, it had to do with coming.

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Page 2409

1 Q. In other words, you were arrested, whether she was able to come to

2 visit?

3 A. Yes, no problem. Across the street, this is what she was saying,

4 there was a checkpoint there. She, herself, used to work in a bank, and

5 she was Serbian. And she was much better than most of the other women in

6 the bank and we -- she is still very good to me, and we live very well and

7 I'm a Muslim.

8 So she couldn't pass through. When you take the main road past

9 the gas station, she didn't -- she couldn't get through there. And there

10 was another checkpoint, there was some macadam road down there. It was

11 some kind of road maintenance company there. There was something down

12 there. I had never taken that road down there.

13 So she tried to go even there, and they wouldn't let her through.

14 However, the women who -- in fact, the men in the room where I was were

15 mostly from Puharska, and their wives would bring food for them. And I

16 have to say the truth, while Mr. Kole was there, I don't know if it was on

17 his initiative or it was ordered to him, but the food came through.

18 We also needed medicine. And I had -- and I am -- I am taking

19 medicine myself. I had even received some from Germany, but I couldn't

20 get them. So she kept trying. She was trying through the children too,

21 but she couldn't get through and she was afraid.

22 Q. When she tried to get through to you, did she mention to them

23 where she was going and why?

24 A. Yes. She gave them the identity card, and they would still turn

25 her back.

Page 2410

1 Q. The people who were turning her back, did they give reasons why

2 they were turning her back, why they were not letting her through?

3 A. Some offensive things like that she was going to go and sleep with

4 me. I don't know these men. I think that she knew one or two of them.

5 She was born in Prijedor. I don't know these men and I have no wish to.

6 Q. But if I understood you correctly, you did see her on the 2nd of

7 August at the gate of Keraterm?

8 A. Yes. And she came from the direction of the gas station. There

9 was a road. I think that the commander of the guard was involved, and the

10 guard himself.

11 Q. To facilitate her access?

12 A. Yes. I think that even there was a telephone conversation. What

13 was crucial for me at that point was the medicine, because I had a blood

14 poisoning at that point.

15 Q. Did the medication help?

16 A. Yes, in the sense that I was relatively -- I was in relatively

17 good health. And I started recovering on my own, even though one leg

18 was -- this part of the leg had an open wound. It was not healing,

19 perhaps because I was trying to walk. The cut I received, the knife

20 wound, did, but even today the leg, the muscle, is still not fully

21 functional.

22 Q. Milan Srdic or Mile Srdic?

23 A. Srdjo, yes.

24 Q. Does that mean to you --

25 A. Is that the dentist Srdjo? Is that who you're referring to?

Page 2411

1 Q. No.

2 A. Then it doesn't mean anything to me.

3 Q. If you can just tell me one more thing. In the light of your

4 personal situation and circumstances and the area where you lived and

5 worked, according to you, what kind of name is Damir?

6 A. Some Muslims gave their sons names Damir. In Croatia, it is

7 somewhat more frequent. The origin of the name I don't know. But, for

8 instance, I have a cousin who is Damir, but then I have some cousins whose

9 names are German, German in origin; for instance, Armin, which is the old

10 Germanic god of war.

11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] In closing, Mr. Hidic, I regret very

12 much what you went through. I do not wish it on anyone. And I thank you

13 very much for your answers.

14 Your Honours, that concludes my questioning.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Rodic.

16 Mr. Vucicevic.

17 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, we are just before the Easter break,

18 and there was a bargain that was struck earlier between Mr. Greaves and

19 Mr. Hidic, and I would just like to add a consideration to such bargain so

20 that it would be complete. I have no questions for this witness.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Vucicevic.

22 Re-examination?

23 MR. RYNEVELD: No re-examination. Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

25 Mr. Hidic, that completes your testimony and you are discharged.

Page 2412

1 Please escort --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're the Presiding Judge. Does

3 the protocol allow me to say something as a victim?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not at this -- no, not at this stage. We have

5 heard your testimony, and that's as much as we are entitled to hear.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then according to me, there's

7 something wrong with your protocol as concerns victims. I should be given

8 five minutes. In regular courts, at least where we come from in the

9 former Yugoslavia, that was the case.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... I will take

11 that into account and note the complaint that you have made, and I will

12 make the appropriate representations on your behalf. Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are released.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Under the circumstances, Your Honours, those are

18 the witnesses that we had planned to call today. I do understand that

19 Your Honours may have some other matters for us by way of housekeeping,

20 and you intimated there may be some other issues you want counsel to deal

21 with. So I'm sorry. I could perhaps get another witness, but I see no

22 profit in starting.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not at all, no. There wouldn't be any profit, as

24 you say.

25 Just to remind me, though, you have how many more witnesses?

Page 2413

1 Twenty -- we have 29 working days, as far as I was able to count.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. In compliance with your request, we have

3 actually checked this out, and I have asked the clerk of the Court to

4 actually provide a list with our proposed order of witnesses, which have

5 also been given to my learned friends. I can tell the Court now that by

6 this list, we would have 21 or perhaps 22 viva voce witnesses, up until

7 number 36 on the list. Thereafter, we have listed numbers 37 through to

8 50 as either transcript or expert witnesses, and then at the end, we do

9 have two additional potential viva voce witnesses, one of whom we have had

10 discussions with our learned friends, I believe it was last night, who

11 would be, although not an expert, be introducing reports. So that would

12 bring us up to a potential 23 further viva voce witnesses, plus whatever

13 witnesses might be cross-examined in the event the Court rules on the

14 transcript evidence.

15 I might tell the Court that we've also met with the Defence with

16 respect to some of those matters and, as I understand it, that my learned

17 friends yesterday indicated that they want the opportunity to

18 cross-examine, but would have no difficulty with the transcripts that we

19 have tendered going in. That is my understanding, but you might want to

20 clarify that with them, but we have attempted to have a meeting of the

21 minds about that. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

23 I should say that the intention of the Chamber is, after the

24 Easter break, to work until 5.15 in the evening. That's as late as we are

25 allowed to go. And on one day in the week, we'll stop earlier to allow

Page 2414

1 for consultations between counsel and their clients, we'll stop at 4.30

2 one evening to allow for those consultations. But the Chamber does intend

3 to work as hard as possible to complete the Prosecution's case by the 1st

4 of June. We will be dealing with the transcripts as soon as we get back

5 so that we know what we are facing in relation to those possibilities.

6 Mr. Greaves, there is a submission that you made, or request that

7 you made yesterday. Would you just remind the Chamber what it is?

8 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Can we just go into private session, please?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

10 [Private session]

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13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

14 at 4.39 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday

15 the 23rd day of April, 2001, at

16 9.30 a.m.

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