Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2760

1 Thursday, 3 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, continue your cross-examination.

7 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honour.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves: [Continued]

11 Q. Witness M, the room in which you were kept, Room 1, it had a

12 prisoner detainee who was designated as the commander or leader of the

13 room; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who was the person that you knew as the leader of Room 1?

16 A. I cannot recall his name, but I know he was from Puharska.

17 Q. And was he commander or leader of the room throughout your stay in

18 Room 1?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On the night of the Room 3 incident, how many people

21 were - approximately. I don't need the exact figure - how many people

22 were in Room 1?

23 A. I don't know the exact figure.

24 Q. Approximately, please.

25 A. Up to 200 persons, perhaps.

Page 2761

1 Q. And you were asked yesterday by my learned friend about the

2 vantage point that you had in order to be able to look out over the

3 premises of the camp that night. Just tell us exactly where you were

4 which enabled you to have such a view, please.

5 A. I told you yesterday: If I were to tell you my exact vantage

6 point in Room 1, I would automatically reveal my identity to the public.

7 MR. GREAVES: Well, if necessary, we can go into private session.

8 I wonder whether Your Honour thinks that's a good idea, if you accept the

9 reason that's given.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I think if the witness has that view, we'll

11 go into private session.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 2762













13 Page 2762 redacted private session.













Page 2763













13 Page 2763 redacted private session.













Page 2764

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [Open session]


20 Q. How many people in all, in terms of numbers, do you say were

21 around the door and able to have a similar view to you, Witness M,

22 please?

23 A. Between 15 and 20 men.

24 Q. Can you help us about this, please? It's right, isn't it, that on

25 the day immediately following the incident at Room 3, nobody was allowed

Page 2765

1 out of their rooms at all during the course of that day? Do you accept

2 that?

3 A. I accept that.

4 Q. The bodies of those who had been killed during the course of the

5 Room 3 massacre, initially were some of them out on the grass as well as

6 on the pista?

7 A. On the pista were the bodies of those who were brought out of the

8 Room 3, and on the grass were those who had been beaten to death the night

9 before.

10 Q. And at some stage, the bodies were laid out together in a row,

11 were they?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was that on the pista?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How close to Room 3 and Room 4 were the bodies laid, in terms of

16 metres?

17 A. They were near the grass so that the truck could come and park

18 next to them.

19 Q. How wide is the pista at that point, Witness M?

20 A. Perhaps about 15 metres, perhaps not even that big.

21 Q. Turning back slightly to the actual incident itself, you've

22 described smoke billowing from the building. How did you know that it was

23 tear gas?

24 A. If it had been regular smoke, people would not have screamed so

25 much and asked for help. And if you had tear gas in a closed room, it is

Page 2766

1 very unpleasant.

2 Q. But you yourself did not smell or suffer from the effects of

3 whatever it was; is that right?

4 A. You could sense the smell. It wasn't regular smoke.

5 Q. When you described the smoke coming from the building, are we

6 talking about huge clouds of smoke coming from that building?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Would the smoke which emerged from the building - you were able to

9 detect it from where you were, given your knowledge of the facility at

10 Keraterm - would it have been obvious also to anybody who was in Room 4,

11 the existence of this smoke?

12 A. I don't know. I was not in Room 4 anyway.

13 Q. I appreciate that you weren't physically that night in Room 4, but

14 had you in the past, during your stay in Keraterm, had you been in front

15 of and walked by Rooms 3 and 4?

16 A. Never.

17 Q. And the smoke that you could see was plainly coming from some part

18 of Room 3. Could you see how it was escaping from Room 3?

19 A. Yes. It was right next to the toilet. Everybody knew that it was

20 Room 3.

21 Q. So it was through the toilet that the smoke was issuing; is that

22 what you're saying?

23 A. No. I'm saying that everybody knew that it was Room 3.

24 Q. Yes. If the answer is no, tell us that it's no. But

25 from -- could you see from which part and through which sort of entrance

Page 2767

1 or hole or gap in the wall the smoke was in fact coming out of Room 3? If

2 you couldn't see from where it was coming, say so.

3 A. There were no holes in the wall. It was under the door and above,

4 where there were cracks. This is where the smoke was coming out. And

5 when the door was broken down. That is where the smoke came out.

6 Q. Let's move on now, please, to the allegation that you make against

7 Sikirica of having killed 18 or 20 people. When the people who were

8 selected and who you say were killed, which room were they selected from?

9 A. From Room 3.

10 Q. And are you saying that you could hear one of the Banovic brothers

11 calling for the people who organised the escape?

12 A. They were not calling them out. They told to one of the men from

13 Brdo, they told him to gather 20 men of whom he knew that they had

14 organised the escape.

15 Q. How do you know that? Did you hear it yourself or were you told

16 it?

17 A. I heard it myself.

18 Q. So whichever Banovic it was, was he speaking at the time or

19 shouting, yelling? What was he doing?

20 A. When Banovic addressed someone, he did not speak softly. He spoke

21 loudly so that everybody could hear him, so that everybody would pay

22 attention.

23 Q. So it would not depend on being able to see this. Everybody in

24 Room 1 could have heard this particular conversation taking place, could

25 they?

Page 2768

1 A. Yes, they could hear it. Perhaps at the far end of the room they

2 could not hear it, but at the near end of the room everybody could hear

3 it.

4 Q. And where do you say the people were lined up in order to be shot,

5 Witness M?

6 A. They were lined up near the beginning of pista or the end of

7 pista. I don't know how to put it, but that is where they were lined up.

8 Q. Outside which room?

9 A. In front of Room 3.

10 Q. How close to Room 3 were they lined up?

11 A. Well, let's say -- I don't know the exact distance, because it was

12 L-shaped. The building was L-shaped, so Room 3 had a larger access to the

13 pista, whereas Room 1 had less of an access.

14 Q. Witness M, the question which I asked of you, it was this: How

15 close physically to Room 3 were the people who were shot lined up? At

16 what distance from Room 3?

17 A. Maybe about 30, 40 metres. I don't think that there was more than

18 30 metres of pista in front of Room 3. Perhaps on the other end, between

19 the Rooms 3 and 4. They were perhaps a little bit farther away.

20 Q. What I'm trying to get at, Witness M, is you've told us that the

21 pista itself was about 15 metres wide. The people were lined up on the

22 pista and they must therefore be either 5 metres or 10 metres or 15 metres

23 or something in distance from the door at the front of Room 3. Are you or

24 are you not able to tell us, even if it's only an approximation, how far

25 from the front of the room they were in a line?

Page 2769













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.













Page 2770

1 A. About 30 metres.

2 Q. So they would be on the grass. If the pista is 15 metres wide,

3 they would be on the grass, wouldn't they, not the pista?

4 A. No, they were not on the grass.

5 Q. I see. What sort of weapon do you say Sikirica used in order to

6 carry out this summary execution of 18, 20 people?

7 A. Automatic weapons.

8 Q. Well, a machine-gun, an automatic rifle? You've done your service

9 in the JNA, haven't you? You know a little bit about infantry weapons,

10 what sort of --

11 A. An automatic rifle.

12 Q. And were just single shots discharged, or a burst of shots, in

13 order to kill each victim?

14 A. Separate shots.

15 Q. And loud enough and close enough for everybody in Room 1 to hear

16 what was taking place shortly after daylight?

17 A. What do you mean, what happened? Are you referring to shots or

18 the people?

19 Q. The shots, Witness M. Everybody in Room 1 would have been able to

20 hear it, wouldn't they?

21 A. Not only in Room 1, but the surrounding settlements could also

22 have heard it.

23 Q. The whole camp could have heard this incident taking place,

24 couldn't it?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 2771

1 Q. Everybody looking out of Rooms 1 or 3 or 4, they would also have

2 had the opportunity to see this incident taking place, wouldn't they, out

3 on the pista?

4 A. Yes, very likely, whoever had the desire to watch it and whoever

5 had an opportunity to watch it, yes, he could.

6 Q. In terms of this context, it's about as public a place at Keraterm

7 as you could wish to carry out a summary execution of 20 people, isn't

8 it?

9 A. It is a place right next to the main road leading to Banja Luka.

10 Q. No doubt it was a topic of conversation after it had happened

11 amongst the prisoners detained with you in Room 1; is that right?

12 A. Well, those men who had been slain and who were there, they were

13 people who had sons there or brothers, neighbours, friends.

14 Q. So everybody in Room 1 would know about this incident, wouldn't

15 they?

16 A. But of course.

17 Q. And it's such a shocking and substantial incident that it would be

18 difficult for anybody who had heard of it or witnessed it to forget it;

19 that's right, isn't it?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, as a matter of comment?

21 MS. BALY: Yes, it is a matter of comment.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let's move on.


24 Q. I suggest to you, Witness M, that this incident simply never

25 happened; did it?

Page 2772

1 A. That is what you suggest.

2 Q. And for reasons of your own, you have made it up, perhaps in order

3 to speed things along here at the Tribunal somehow.

4 A. I have never fabricated a story in my life, let alone harmed

5 anyone.

6 Q. Witness M, just one final matter, please. You named yesterday two

7 people who you could recall as having been killed, one called Cacko and

8 somebody called Putavi. Are those the only people whose names that you've

9 ever known as having been killed prior to the Room 3 incident?

10 A. They are the only names. I told you already that people were

11 being called out at night and beaten, and it mostly went on near the

12 garbage yard. And those vehicles that you showed photographs of

13 yesterday, it was usually such vehicles that came in the morning to take

14 people away.

15 Q. The person you say was killed by Cica, was he -- the person who

16 was killed was a waiter, wasn't he, before the war?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Worked in one of the many cafes that you used to go to?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The second man, Putavi, what sort of person was he? What did he

21 do?

22 A. It was a man who drove a large, heavy-duty truck, transporting

23 heavy machinery, the road construction machinery on the -- a very, very

24 nice man, a very honest man.

25 Q. And where did he come from?

Page 2773

1 A. He was from the town area, but he had built a house up in Tukovi.

2 Q. So not somebody who was from the community of Ljubija?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And those are the only two people that you've ever said or told

5 anybody about as having been killed; is that right?

6 A. I knew their names.

7 Q. Just those two, nobody else at all?

8 A. Their names, I -- there were other people killed but their names I

9 know.

10 Q. How are you able, then, to tell the Office of the Prosecutor not

11 eight weeks ago that one of the people you recalled as having been killed

12 was Drago Tokmadzic, if that's right, Witness M?

13 A. Oh, yes, yes. It is common knowledge that Drago Tokmadzic was

14 killed because he was a policeman, and whoever moved around town

15 practically knew about him.

16 Q. Such common knowledge that you didn't tell us about him giving

17 evidence yesterday? Why was that?

18 A. They didn't ask me about him.

19 Q. You were asked about people and the names of people who were

20 killed, were you not, Witness M?

21 A. Yes, that's true.

22 Q. Have you discussed the Keraterm case with people in the community

23 in which you live?

24 A. I didn't understand. What did you say?

25 Q. Have you discussed the Keraterm case, this case, with other people

Page 2774

1 in the community in which you live, other people from your area, from

2 Prijedor?

3 A. Since 1992 there hasn't been a meeting, there hasn't been an

4 assembly, there hasn't been a visit, which has not then come down to

5 discussing these events, those dates. And that is how it's been since

6 1992. That is how it will be to the end of my life. Do you think that

7 kind of life is nice?

8 Q. So from other people who have been in Keraterm, you have heard

9 stories of what took place there?

10 A. I'm telling you now.

11 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. No further questions.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves. Mr. Petrovic?

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

14 Q. Witness M, I should like to follow up on what my learned friend

15 has asked you. So you discuss things that happened in Keraterm; is that

16 true?

17 A. Of course it's true.

18 Q. And you discuss also various incidents that happened in Keraterm?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. A while ago you said it is common knowledge that that happened to

21 Drago Tokmadzic, but who told you that it happened to him?

22 A. Nobody had to tell me. I saw Drago Tokmadzic being brought in and

23 being beaten.

24 Q. And where was that?

25 A. In Keraterm.

Page 2775

1 Q. Yes, I'm quite aware of that, because we are discussing Keraterm

2 here, but when I ask you where was that, I'm asking you where in

3 Keraterm.

4 A. They began to beat him on the pista. That is where he was

5 killed. And Drago Tokmadzic was beaten all night and made to run around

6 the structures in Keraterm.

7 Q. And where did the beating begin?

8 A. On the pista.

9 Q. Which part of the pista?

10 A. Somewhere midway.

11 Q. But in relation to various rooms?

12 A. He was taken to the area between Rooms 2 and 3, somewhere there.

13 Q. You say that is where it began. And then?

14 A. Well, he moved. Quite simply, Drago Tokmadzic was made to run

15 around Keraterm, and as he ran he was beaten, and as he would pass by our

16 rooms, we could see -- I saw, I saw them strike him.

17 Q. And is it true that -- did you see only Drago and those who were

18 beating him or Drago only?

19 A. And those who were beating him, but they did not run after him.

20 They would just let him move, knowing that he wouldn't be able to escape

21 anyway. So they would wait for him to complete the circle, then they

22 would beat him again and let him move on.

23 Q. And how many times did he then run past your room?

24 A. Well, it went on almost throughout the night. No, but he didn't

25 run all the time.

Page 2776

1 Q. And who was it that beat him?

2 A. Lajic. I saw Lajic come and start beating him, and in the morning

3 I also saw him when he finished him off. And of course, where I could not

4 see, in those areas that were outside my field of view, then I couldn't --

5 then I do not know.

6 Q. And when did it all start?

7 A. It started sometime in the evening and ended up early in the

8 morning.

9 Q. But was it daytime when it ended or was it still dark?

10 A. Well, it was right before dawn, before daybreak.

11 Q. And is it true that only Drago was beaten that night?

12 A. Yes. That night only Drago was beaten, as far as I know.

13 Q. And had somebody else been beaten on the pista, you would have

14 seen it?

15 A. Well, if it was in my field of vision, then I would have.

16 Q. And tell me something else. I'd like to move on to another

17 subject. Muhici is a part of Tukovi, isn't it?

18 A. Muhici. Well, I wouldn't put it quite that way. It's a hill over

19 there, as far as I know. There are some Muhics above there and then down

20 in the Hambarine field.

21 Q. But it's on the way to Sanski Most, isn't it?

22 A. Yes. There are some Muhics, that is, families, Muhics, there are

23 some up there.

24 Q. And I'm asking you, is part of Muhici on a part of the main road

25 to Sanski Most?

Page 2777













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 2778

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. And is Muhici inhabited mostly by Muslims?

3 A. Well, not quite. It's rather mixed.

4 Q. Was there a checkpoint at the time that we are talking about?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that checkpoint, was it manned by members of the Muslim

7 people?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And where was the checkpoint at the entrance into town? Where was

10 that?

11 A. Are you asking me which part of the town?

12 Q. I'm asking you from the direction of the locality that you lived

13 in, toward the town, where was the checkpoint there?

14 A. I see. At the beginning of the bridge if you are going to Sanski

15 Most, towards the exit from the bridge if you are moving towards the

16 centre of the town.

17 Q. And is it true that it was manned by regular civilian police and

18 the military police?

19 A. Well, if you think that the police -- I find somebody from the

20 security, put on his uniform, and then I'm the policeman and I'm entitled

21 to stand at that checkpoint, if that's how you take this thing.

22 Q. I'm asking you if you saw men from the civilian and the reserve

23 police manning that post. Tell me yes or no.

24 A. They were civilian police.

25 Q. Did you recognise any of the regular policemen discharging their

Page 2779

1 duty before the conflict broke out?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Were they men who resided in that part of the town?

4 A. Yes. They were men who resided in that part of the town.

5 Besides, I went through that checkpoint only twice.

6 Q. That part of the town is relatively near the part of the town that

7 you lived in; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. So those were your neighbours. You must have known those people.

10 A. For a great many years.

11 Q. And so who was at that checkpoint whom you knew?

12 A. When I went through it, for instance, Bosko Stupar's son, called

13 Sasa. He was very young at the time. From Tukovi there was Mladen. He

14 was another one at the time when I went through it.

15 Q. And tell me, what company did you work for before the war?

16 A. I did not work for any company.

17 Q. So where were you employed?

18 A. I was self-employed.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move into private session,

20 please, for a moment.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session.

22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 2780













13 Page 2780 redacted private session.













Page 2781

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Does that mean that in the -- that around Prijedor, there were --

6 they was armed groups roaming around and that one could not really tell

7 whether they were military, army, or something in between?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. Does that mean that in the Prijedor neighbourhood at that time,

10 the events had escaped control, or rather that events could not be

11 controlled from one centre because there were groups which were not under

12 anyone's control?

13 A. Well, everybody knew what he was expected to do.

14 Q. How?

15 A. Well, very simple. How did one know where to go, how to round up,

16 where to round up people? How could your local neighbours know that they

17 were supposed to do that?

18 Q. But do you have any idea who ran those things, who managed those

19 things?

20 A. I could not hear the question.

21 Q. Do you know who -- are you aware of the person or institution who

22 organised or ran those actions?

23 A. But of course. I mean, when you look at it, then you see who

24 stands out; who is saying who should be taken away, what, how, when.

25 Q. I'm asking you who was it?

Page 2782

1 A. Well, for instance, when they came in front of my house, what's

2 his name, Dusan Zoric, because he was a man rather elderly, and I've known

3 him since I was a child, and he practically knew every inch of our yard,

4 let alone who lived where, and he knew about all the male population and

5 who should be --

6 Q. Are you aware that at the time when you say you came to Keraterm,

7 there were only two guard shifts?

8 A. At that time when I got there, I did not know how many shifts

9 there were, how large they were, what was going on there, what was that.

10 It was only when I was in already that I began to understand a few things.

11 Q. But you must have learned in a day or two how many guards there

12 were?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Which means that, say, roughly on the 8th or the 9th or the 10th,

15 you already knew how many guard shifts there were in Keraterm?

16 A. Well, yes. One knew that perhaps not the first day, but the

17 second day one already knew how many shifts -- shift changes there had

18 been, how many men there were around.

19 Q. Over how many years do you say you've known the man whom you said

20 was called Kajin?

21 A. Well, for a long -- for very many years, since my school days.

22 I've known him when he attended school.

23 Q. Did you attend school together?

24 A. No, no, we did not.

25 Q. Did Kajin have a brother?

Page 2783

1 A. As far as I know, yes, he did, one.

2 Q. And what was his name?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. You said that Kajin played basketball?

5 A. Yes. He was active.

6 Q. Did you mean perhaps Kajin who is sitting here in this courtroom

7 or did you mean his brother?

8 A. I meant Kajin.

9 Q. But are you aware that his brother played basketball too?

10 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

11 Q. Do you know what Kajin's brother was usually -- what Kajin's

12 brother was referred to?

13 A. I don't.

14 Q. Are you aware that he was referred to as Kajin as well?

15 A. I don't know that.

16 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to be in the same pub, in the

17 same coffee bar with Kajin, in the same company?

18 A. Well, not around coffee bars, but since my childhood, at the time

19 when I was a child --

20 THE INTERPRETER: No, in a coffee pub.

21 A. Everybody came there and people communicated, people talked

22 amongst themselves.

23 Q. Is it true that Kajin communicated with everybody regardless of

24 his ethnic or religious affiliation?

25 A. Well, when I got to Keraterm -- until I got to Keraterm, I never

Page 2784

1 made any distinctions myself, and neither did he. I know that he was

2 really a very nice guy, good-looking guy, and a honest guy.

3 Q. Is it true that Kajin never hit anyone in Keraterm?

4 A. It is true, at least as far as I know, that is true.

5 Q. Is it also true that he never ordered anyone to do anything like

6 it?

7 A. I did not hear him order something like that.

8 Q. No. I'm asking you only about things that you heard yourself, so

9 you can give me very brief answers, please. Is it true that Kajin put an

10 end to incidents if they happened in there?

11 A. Well, when those incidents would be already coming to an end, it

12 was then that he would do it.

13 Q. Tell me, please, how did you know that Fustar was a shift

14 commander?

15 A. Well, had you spent two and a half months there, you would have

16 known that.

17 Q. And how is it that you know that?

18 A. From the behaviour, from how he ordered, from how people treated

19 him, and the like.

20 Q. But then you must have heard Fustar issue an order to somebody?

21 A. He did issue orders.

22 Q. Tell me, when did you hear Fustar issue orders to somebody, just

23 one example?

24 A. Well, I don't really know. It doesn't come to me right now. I

25 mean, any of those examples.

Page 2785













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 2786

1 Q. But who did he issue that order to?

2 A. I cannot recall that.

3 Q. How far was he from you when he issued that order, that order or

4 some other?

5 A. Well, their checkpoint was somewhere near the weigh bridge where

6 the freight trucks would come, so it could have been some 50 metres from

7 us.

8 Q. How could you, being 50 metres away, how could you hear him say

9 something?

10 A. When -- if somebody is hollering, then you can hear him from afar.

11 Q. And what did he say when he used that raised voice?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. How many people were there when he issued that order, hollering?

14 A. You mean in Room 1?

15 Q. In Room 1.

16 A. Well, there has never been an accurate figure because people were

17 brought in and taken away, but I've already told you that there were about

18 200 men there.

19 Q. And how many -- to how many people did Fustar issue those orders?

20 A. Well, those were guards.

21 Q. And how many of them?

22 A. I don't know how many guards, four, five, six, depends.

23 Q. But those guards must have been lined up in front of Fustar, then?

24 A. No, they were not.

25 Q. And where did they stand in relation to Fustar?

Page 2787

1 A. Well, they never stood in one place.

2 Q. Where did they stand?

3 A. Well, Fustar could issue orders when he saw somebody or if he

4 needed something. It's not that army system which you are trying to put

5 to me, when an officer summons a soldier who has to stand in front of him

6 and salute him properly.

7 Q. So there was no discipline between those whom you called shift

8 commanders and those whom you call guards?

9 A. Well, yes, you could say so.

10 Q. Do you know a person named Jasmin Alisic?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. Is it true that on the last day of your stay at Keraterm, this man

13 was brought in?

14 A. Not exactly the last day.

15 Q. When was that?

16 A. That was perhaps two days before the Keraterm was disbanded.

17 Q. Where was he brought from?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Do you know -- that is, did you see when he was brought in?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Was he brought in through the main gate of Keraterm?

22 A. I did not see that. Simply I assumed that he was brought in from

23 the back side where we were going to be interrogated, and it was

24 night-time.

25 Q. Does that mean that he had been brought in behind Keraterm where

Page 2788

1 the military police building was?

2 A. Something like that.

3 Q. Was he brought into your room?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was there a reaction on the part of you who were in the room at

6 that time when he was brought in?

7 A. Whoever was brought in naturally caused a reaction. We wanted to

8 know what was it like outside, what was going on, whether there would be

9 some change.

10 Q. Do you know what Jama did when he was brought into Keraterm?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Of the men who were in Room 1, did anyone protest because Jama was

13 brought into your room?

14 A. Did anybody have any right to protest?

15 Q. Is it true that from the moment when he was brought into your

16 room, he was not beaten at any time?

17 A. That night that he spent in Room 1, he was not beaten before he

18 was brought out the next morning.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move into the private

20 session again for a moment, Your Honour?


22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 2789













13 Page 2789 redacted private session.













Page 2790

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation].

13 Q. A moment ago you talked about Drago Tokmadzic's murder.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This again is something that you saw yourself?

16 A. I saw when the beating started. I did not observe it all the time

17 and I did not see it all the time, because Drago was not in one place.

18 Q. Are you perhaps not afraid -- sorry. How is it that you're not

19 afraid that somebody would recognise you because you saw the incident

20 involving Drago Tokmadzic?

21 A. How is it that I'm not afraid?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Sir, I have two children. Of course I'm afraid. But there is

24 something stronger in me. I feel obligated to these men.

25 Q. You said that Drago Tokmadzic was running around Keraterm.

Page 2791

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. So that means that he was running around the entire building of

3 Keraterm?

4 A. Yes, around the entire building.

5 Q. Could you just please recall how many people ran after him and

6 beat him?

7 A. They did not run after him all the time, but I know of Lajic.

8 Q. Was there some kind of a fence that would have prevented them from

9 making a full circle around Keraterm, as you saw it?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. How long did this circling of Keraterm last?

12 A. If he was stopped on the other side, there would be some kind of

13 pause, because this was not Olympics.

14 Q. How long did it go on?

15 A. Sometimes one round went on for ten minutes, at other times for

16 half an hour.

17 Q. When you arrived at Keraterm, you said that people were observing

18 through some kind of wire fence from Rooms 1 and 2.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was that what you then later drew as bars?

21 A. Yes, except Room 2 did not have bars the whole width.

22 Q. Were these bars put there after you arrived?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You mentioned that the morning after the massacre some kind of a

25 cameraman arrived at Keraterm.

Page 2792

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you describe this man for me?

3 A. I cannot describe him, because I could not see him well because of

4 the camera, but it was a man.

5 Q. What kind of camera was it that he had with him?

6 A. I cannot tell you the brand.

7 Q. I'm not asking you the brand. I'm just asking you the size,

8 because the size of the camera prevented you from seeing his face.

9 A. It was a good-sized camera.

10 Q. Where did this man stand with the camera?

11 A. Sometimes on the grass, sometimes on the pista. He was moving

12 about.

13 Q. Was this man alone?

14 A. Yes. He was shooting alone.

15 Q. Was somebody else next to him?

16 A. No, there was nobody who was strictly next to him, but the guards

17 moved about in the area.

18 Q. In addition to this man, did you see some of the men who were

19 conducting interrogations on the top floor at Keraterm?

20 A. No, I did not.

21 Q. Did you see any of the active-duty policemen who had worked as

22 policemen in Prijedor before the war?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. The night before, you said that Banovic had tossed in tear gas, a

25 grenade in the room.

Page 2793













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 2794

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Where exactly was Banovic when he did that?

3 A. In front of Room 3.

4 Q. How far was he from Room 3?

5 A. He was right next to Room 3.

6 Q. So Banovic was half a metre or a metre from Room 3?

7 A. I saw him moving in the direction of Room 3 and I saw him throwing

8 something, and then he moved away, running.

9 Q. Where did he throw it in?

10 A. Through some opening.

11 Q. How did you know -- how do you know that he threw it in through

12 some opening when you weren't in a position to see?

13 A. He couldn't have thrown it in through the closed door.

14 Q. How do you know that there was an opening there?

15 A. I assume that because he threw it in.

16 Q. How do you know that he managed to throw it in?

17 A. I saw him approaching the Room 3 and walking away from it.

18 Q. But you did not see him throwing it in?

19 A. I could not see such a moment, because those two, three metres,

20 from my vantage point I could not see it coming in, but I saw the

21 intention.

22 Q. How did you see that intention? What did this intention consist

23 of?

24 A. Because he was moving in the direction of Room 3 with the

25 intention of -- preparing to throw it in.

Page 2795

1 Q. What does this preparation mean?

2 A. You just remove the cotter pin.

3 Q. You told Mr. Greaves that you saw smoke coming out from under the

4 door.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How could you see that? Because from the vantage point where you

7 were, you could not see it.

8 A. The smoke wasn't just two, three metres away from the door; it

9 came halfway across the pista, maybe even beyond that point.

10 Q. Did Banovic come back again to throw in more tear gas or was all

11 this smoke from this single tear gas grenade?

12 A. From a single one.

13 Q. Given the amount of smoke, did you also start tearing?

14 A. We could feel that smoke, but we did not -- it did not affect our

15 eyes.

16 Q. Were the guards who were around Room 3 also enveloped in that

17 smoke?

18 A. They were not right next to Room 3; they were some distance away.

19 Q. You said that the smoke was spreading halfway across the pista.

20 Did you see whether these guards were wearing gas masks?

21 A. No, I did not see it.

22 Q. Can you tell me where exactly did the guards stand, let's say,

23 during Fustar's shift?

24 A. I don't understand.

25 Q. How were they deployed during Fustar's shift?

Page 2796

1 A. Whichever way they wanted to be.

2 Q. Did they have any posts assigned to them, guard posts?

3 A. No, they did not.

4 Q. Do you know a person named Burza?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Did you ever talk to this man?

7 A. Yes, I did. I had occasions.

8 Q. When was the last time you talked to him?

9 A. In 1992, while you could still move about town. I don't know

10 exactly when in 1992.

11 Q. Was this man at Keraterm?

12 A. Yes, he was there too.

13 Q. Was he in Room 4?

14 A. Yes, he was in Room 4.

15 Q. Was Room 4 right next to Room 3?

16 A. Yes, they were in the same line.

17 Q. Were they a few metres from one another?

18 A. They were separated. There weren't that many doors.

19 Q. Did Burza tell you that the night before the massacre he felt tear

20 gas several metres from the place where he was?

21 A. Since 1992 I have not seen Burza, and I have not had contact with

22 him.

23 Q. You said that you saw him right after Keraterm, and you said that

24 every time that you saw anyone of those who were there with you at

25 Keraterm, you would go back to the Keraterm subject?

Page 2797

1 A. That is not correct. I never said that I saw him after Keraterm

2 in 1992.

3 Q. Well, did you talk to him about the incident in Room 3 at

4 Keraterm?

5 A. No, not with Burza.

6 Q. Did anyone else from Room 4 tell you that a tear gas grenade had

7 been thrown in front of the room in --

8 A. I had no contact with them.

9 Q. Can you please explain to me what it meant for you when somebody

10 was a visitor to the camp?

11 A. A visitor?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Visitors come with different intentions.

14 Q. In your statement you mentioned a man called Duca whom you

15 described as a frequent visitor. What kind of a visitor was this Duca?

16 A. He was a terrible visitor.

17 Q. So in that sense, what did a visitor mean to you?

18 A. Well, the intentions that he had made him a terrible visitor.

19 Q. Did he enter Keraterm frequently?

20 A. He frequently -- he came frequently.

21 Q. Did he come alone?

22 A. Sometimes alone, sometimes with his friends.

23 Q. Was he a bully at Keraterm?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could somebody prevent him from entering Keraterm when he arrived

Page 2798

1 with his armed companions?

2 A. If there had been any goodwill, perhaps they could have prevented

3 him.

4 Q. Did he come there with Zigic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You said that Zigic was the camp commander before your arrival?

7 A. This is what I heard.

8 Q. Did anyone tell you why he stopped being commander?

9 A. He must have crossed that line, that limit of normalcy, if you can

10 call that normalcy.

11 Q. Was there a sewage system on the pista?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where were these sewage openings?

14 A. It was in the middle. There was a certain rake, incline, on both

15 sides.

16 Q. Where was it?

17 A. I assume you're talking about this manhole. It was in the middle.

18 Q. So from 20 metres you could hear the sound of blood that was

19 draining?

20 A. Yes, I heard it very well.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No more questions, thank you.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. Sir Ivan?

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence:

24 Q. Witness M, you've given evidence of your recollections of a man

25 you know as Kole?

Page 2799

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Not someone I think you knew very well at all?

3 A. Not to such an extent.

4 Q. Did you ever see Kole beating a prisoner?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you ever see Kole shooting at anyone?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did he ever see or hear Kole giving an order for anyone to beat a

9 prisoner?

10 A. No, I did not hear that.

11 Q. Did you ever hear or see Kole giving an order for someone to shoot

12 at a prisoner?

13 A. No, I did not hear.

14 Q. Did you ever see or hear Kole himself doing harm to a prisoner?

15 A. No, I did not hear or see that.

16 Q. Am I right in supposing that his reputation as a guard in the camp

17 was a good one?

18 A. Yes, and I share that view.

19 Q. Thank you. Is it right that on occasions he tried to help

20 detainees get a better treatment?

21 A. From the first day and onward, I never felt that there was ever

22 any better treatment.

23 Q. Well, let me put some suggestions to you and see if you can recall

24 these things happening, as far as you were able to see. Is it right that

25 family were allowed to come to the gate with food?

Page 2800

1 A. Many family members did try to come and deliver food, and some

2 managed to have the food delivered, but it depended on the will and the

3 mood of the guard on that day, but there was a little depression next to

4 it, and it was filled with food. The food was taken from the family

5 members, but most of it ended up there, but in some cases, some food did

6 come through.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan, was your question a general one or was

8 it specifically related to the periods when Kole was on duty?

9 MR. LAWRENCE: It was a general one, but I'm about to narrow it.

10 Q. What I'm suggesting, Witness M, is that on occasions when food was

11 not only allowed to be brought in but was taken for detainees, Kole was

12 involved?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. Thank you. And can you remember occasions when Kole tried to get

15 more water to the detainees?

16 A. Well, I don't recall. I didn't have an opportunity to hear that.

17 Q. All right. But you can't deny that that happened? You're not in

18 that position, either?

19 A. I did not hear about it.

20 Q. And it would be consistent with the reputation that Kole had

21 amongst detainees in the camp, that he might well have helped them over

22 water?

23 A. That was his reputation. He did help people frequently.

24 Q. And allowed people to leave the rooms and go to the toilet and

25 walk about?

Page 2801













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 2802

1 A. That happened too, yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Can I have your help also about two events that you've

3 described on the day of the Room 3 massacre; firstly, the calling out of

4 about 20 prisoners from the rooms by Faca. Is that how you pronounce his

5 name?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That happened in the afternoon of the day of the massacre, did it

8 not?

9 A. Somewhere around there, towards dusk.

10 Q. Well, will you agree with me that in your interview, you said, on

11 the afternoon?

12 A. Yes, that is correct, in the afternoon.

13 Q. Thank you. And there was only one incident like that that

14 happened that afternoon, was there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you put a time on it? I know you didn't have watches, did

17 you?

18 A. Towards dusk, perhaps around 6.00, 7.00.

19 Q. Might it have been earlier than 6.00?

20 A. Perhaps before 6.00.

21 Q. And your recollection is that the shift changed at about 7.00 at

22 that time, is it?

23 A. I don't recall exactly when the shift changed, but there were

24 changes.

25 Q. Will you accept from me that whether it's right or it's wrong, you

Page 2803

1 said in interview that there were three shifts which changed at 7.00 each

2 morning and afternoon?

3 A. There were three shifts, but on that day there was no definite

4 time.

5 Q. What I mean is: I know you can't be definite and specific about

6 times, but your impression is - it's the impression that matters - your

7 impression is that the shift changed at about 7.00 on the evening at that

8 time?

9 A. Yes, something like that.

10 Q. And that the calling-out incident took place at about 6.00, but it

11 may have been earlier?

12 A. Something like that.

13 Q. So that I think the impression you're intending to convey is that

14 the calling-out incident took place before the end of the shift?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. And that was Fustar's shift, was it not?

17 A. I don't know. I don't recall exactly whose shift it was, but they

18 were all there. They were all mixed in together.

19 Q. Well, it was -- can you recall that Kole's shift was in the

20 evening?

21 A. Kole's shift was in the evening.

22 Q. Yes. So your recollection is that the calling out took place

23 before Kole's shift? Whoever's shift it was, it was before Kole's shift?

24 A. It was all around that time, during that transition.

25 Q. Try and help me to be more specific, if you will, Witness M.

Page 2804

1 You've told me just now that your impression is that the shift changed

2 around 7.00. You've told me just now that your impression was that the

3 calling out took place at about 6.00 or maybe earlier. All right?

4 Nothing wrong so far?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. And therefore, the calling out must have taken place before the

7 evening shift.

8 A. That is correct. That is correct.

9 Q. And if the evening shift was Kole's shift, which everybody says it

10 was, then the calling out didn't take place during Kole's shift; is that

11 right?

12 A. Correct.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan, we are at the time for the break. We

14 normally break at 11.00. It's now six minutes after 11.00.

15 MR. LAWRENCE: I'm so sorry, Your Honour. I'm going to have to

16 get used to the timings.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I had overlooked it myself. So we'll take the

18 break now.

19 Witness M, during the adjournment you are not to discuss your

20 evidence with anybody, including the members of the Prosecution team.

21 We'll resume at 11.35.

22 --- Recess taken at 11.06 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.39 a.m.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Sir Ivan.

25 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2805

1 Q. I want to ask you next, Witness M, about the shooting at Room 3.

2 There was shouting, screaming, some attempt to get out of the room; is

3 that right?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. There was obvious terror, panic, and confusion?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. It was very traumatic for you, and therefore, can we assume that

8 you, trying to remember back, may also be a little confused about some of

9 the details?

10 A. Oh, no. I am not confused at all. I told you: Since 1992 to the

11 end of my life, I will have to live with it.

12 Q. Yes, but such was the trauma and such was the panic and such was

13 the confusion, that you're surely not saying that absolutely everything

14 that you recall is not capable of some error. You're not saying that, are

15 you?

16 A. No error there.

17 Q. At any rate, what you can be sure about is that Kole tried to stop

18 some of the shooting?


20 MS. BALY: I object to that question. That's, in my submission,

21 the counsel's characterisation of what the witness said. It's not

22 accurate. What the witness said was the words --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but he can -- the witness can say whether,

24 in his view, Kole tried to stop some of the shooting. That's a matter of

25 fact for the witness.

Page 2806

1 MR. LAWRENCE: Your Honour, I'm grateful. I can put it in any way

2 I like. The witness doesn't have to agree.

3 Q. Is that right, Witness M, that we can be sure that Kole tried to

4 stop some of the shooting? Is that right?

5 A. Kole tried and did prevent the shooting extending to Rooms 1 and

6 2, and it's up to you to say whether people in Rooms 1 and 2 are perhaps

7 more valuable for some reason than those in Room 3.

8 Q. But that is just supposition, isn't it, Witness M? What you can

9 give evidence about is that Kole tried to stop some of the shooting. Is

10 that right?

11 A. That is a fact and that is right. I told you that he stopped the

12 shooting, or rather that he prevented any shooting at Rooms 1 and 2, but

13 did not prevent the shooting at Room 3.

14 Q. Ah, now, you didn't tell us that. Is it your evidence that Kole

15 encouraged the shooting at Room 3? Is that what you're saying?

16 A. Well, as I told you, the conclusion that can be drawn from that

17 automatically is that one.

18 Q. No, Witness M. Please answer the question. Did you see or hear

19 Kole encourage any of the shooting of Room M -- of Room 3? Yes or no?

20 A. Well, seeing that he did not prevent it means that he encouraged

21 it.

22 Q. Did you see him fail to prevent the shooting at Room 3? Did you

23 see or hear him say that? Did you?

24 A. He did not prevent it.

25 Q. Did you -- can I have an answer to the question? Did you ever see

Page 2807

1 Kole say or do anything to encourage the shooting of Room 3? Yes or no,

2 please.

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. Do you remember - and I'm only asking you whether you

5 remember; it may or may not have happened but you may be able to help -

6 Kole before the shooting trying to get somebody to switch on the water

7 hydrant?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. You can't help one way or the other?

10 A. I can't, no.

11 Q. I'm not suggesting you should, because there were a lot of people

12 around and a lot of confusion and a lot of noise and a lot of panic. But

13 you can't help about that; very well. Also what you do remember is that

14 there were soldiers standing around the machine-gun; is that right?

15 A. It is.

16 Q. Soldiers?

17 A. Men.

18 Q. No, Witness M. Did you tell your interviewers that they were

19 soldiers?

20 A. In uniforms, and therefore the conclusion one would draw was that

21 they were soldiers, but were they regular soldiers, para-soldiers,

22 volunteer units or something, that is another matter.

23 Q. Yes. I haven't asked you about what kind of soldiers, merely that

24 your impression was that there were soldiers standing around the

25 machine-gun, soldiers. Is that right?

Page 2808

1 A. When I say "soldiers," it is then regular soldiers, regular

2 troops, and I served there with the Yugoslav People's Army, and when

3 somebody is dressed in another way, they are not soldiers to me.

4 Q. But you described the people around the machine-gun as soldiers;

5 do you accept that?

6 A. Oh, dear, well, they were wearing uniforms, weren't they?

7 Q. Please answer the question.

8 A. Yes, soldiers.

9 Q. I'm not asking you what kind of soldiers, and I'm sure you didn't

10 know what kind of soldiers, but when you came to describe what you saw,

11 what you saw were soldiers; is that right?

12 A. It is.

13 Q. Not the guards?

14 A. Well, that's -- we concluded too that guards were soldiers too,

15 and what were the guards then?

16 Q. No --

17 A. What do you think?

18 Q. In the course of your interview, you spoke of some people as

19 guards and some people as soldiers. Now, is that not because you draw a

20 distinction between the guards in the camp and soldiers?

21 A. Guards wore uniforms too, and therefore they are also soldiers

22 except that their duties were different. Theirs is a guard duty.

23 Q. Please don't [no microphone] with the words. You know what I

24 mean. The guards, you knew. The soldiers, you did not know. Isn't that

25 right?

Page 2809













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 2810

1 A. But they are the same people. The same people, but reinforced by

2 others who had come and whom I did not know but who also wore uniforms.

3 Q. All right. What had happened was a large number of soldiers had

4 come into the camp; is that not right?

5 A. Not a large number, not the way you seem to think.

6 Q. Sixty or 70, at least, soldiers came into the camp in waves during

7 that evening; is that not right?

8 A. I don't think there were as many as that. In waves, well, they

9 came in and went out, but I wouldn't say it -- there were all that many.

10 That is what you say, but I don't really know how many of them there were.

11 Q. You don't really know, fair enough. I'm not pressing you further

12 than that. And you didn't actually see who was -- you couldn't actually

13 see who was firing the machine-gun, could you?

14 A. I did not know that individual. I did not really see who it was

15 that actually fired from it, because the foray was such that ...

16 Q. Certainly, and I don't press you further on that. But what you

17 did say to your interviewers was that there were soldiers, also soldiers

18 standing in a semicircle around the machine-gun, and they were firing

19 their weapons, weren't they?

20 A. Yes, that is right.

21 Q. Thank you. Did you hear any of the soldiers shouting?

22 A. Quite a number of them were shouting.

23 Q. Did you hear what they were shouting?

24 A. Yes, I did hear that.

25 Q. Did you hear soldiers shouting such offensive things as, "What are

Page 2811

1 you waiting for, Turks?"

2 A. That was a frequent shout, and that day too.

3 Q. "Why don't you break the door down, Turks, and then we'll shoot

4 you," something like that?

5 A. That too, and things similar to that.

6 Q. And this was shouting coming from the soldiers round the gun, was

7 it not?

8 A. That is right.

9 Q. Can I just, if you'll help me, see what you can tell us about the

10 guns on the camp. Can you please have a look at a plan that's been drawn

11 that I think it's been conceded may not be accurate. I'm not sure -- is

12 it Exhibit 33? That's right, the plan. Is it Exhibit 33?


14 MR. LAWRENCE: 37. Thank you.

15 Q. Take a moment to look at it, Witness M, please. Does that roughly

16 look like the position of the rooms?

17 A. Yes, you could say that.

18 Q. I think there's been some dispute about whether the road coming up

19 is too far to the left, so assume that it was a little bit further to the

20 right, all right?

21 A. You mean this road here?

22 Q. Yes. A little bit over to the right?

23 A. If you mean in relation to some rooms.

24 Q. Yes. It was more or less facing Rooms 1 and 2 rather than to one

25 side, isn't it? Agree?

Page 2812

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Yes. Now, can you point on the map to the machine-guns that were

3 always in place, all right? How many machine-gun nests were there in the

4 camp before the 24th of July, before the night of the Room 3 massacre?

5 A. The machine-gun nest was on the road. From the entrance into the

6 Keraterm camp there was this bunker.

7 Q. Just off the road, are you saying?

8 A. Yes, yes. That's right.

9 Q. A little more to the right than it is on the plan?

10 A. Well, if this is the road, then it was here, at the very entrance,

11 because it was a very wide entrance. Trucks came in through it, because

12 that is where the freight was weighed, so it was very broad. There had to

13 be enough room for all those vehicles.

14 Q. Does it come to this: That there was more or less facing Rooms 1

15 and 2 permanently a machine-gun?

16 A. Yes, where that bunker was.

17 Q. Yes. And you never saw it fired or anything like that?

18 A. No, no fire was opened from that one.

19 Q. Now, can you indicate where there was another machine-gun

20 permanently on the site?

21 A. I do not remember that there was another one. I just can't

22 remember.

23 Q. Can I suggest that there was another one on this area in front of

24 and facing Rooms 3 and 4, a bunker with a machine-gun?

25 A. Yes, but it was placed there that night and that was its purpose,

Page 2813

1 but it wasn't placed there permanently.

2 Q. No. I know what you say about one being brought in and put

3 there. What I'm asking you is whether there was not another one that had

4 always been there facing Rooms 3 and 4, one machine-gun to stop people

5 leaving Rooms 1 and 2 and another machine-gun to stop people leaving Rooms

6 3 and 4, and that was the permanent position in the camp; was it not?

7 A. No. There wasn't a machine-gun nest all that time. It was the

8 night when it happened it was put there. But I do not recall a permanent

9 machine-gun nest there.

10 Q. Well, are you saying there positively wasn't or you can't remember

11 whether there was or there wasn't permanently a machine-gun facing Rooms 3

12 and 4?

13 A. I cannot remember.

14 Q. Fair enough. That's fair enough. At any rate, if there was a

15 machine-gun there, you never saw that being fired at any time before the

16 24th of July?

17 A. No, no, I did not.

18 Q. And what you do say is the machine-gun fire came from a

19 machine-gun in front of Rooms 3 and 4 on the night of the 24th of July?

20 A. That is right.

21 Q. Can you help me next about the shifts, please. You have told us

22 that there were three shifts.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. May I attempt to jog your memory? When you first went to Keraterm

25 on the 7th of June, is it right that there were then only two shifts?

Page 2814

1 A. At that time, that is, when I arrived, I didn't know what the

2 shifts were. I didn't know that the shifts existed at all. But later on,

3 over time, as time passed, we learned that.

4 Q. Well, now, trying to give some form to your vague recollection

5 about it, can I suggest to you that up until about the 15th of June, that

6 is, for the first week or ten days that you were there, there were only

7 two shifts and that the guard who seemed to be in charge of one of them

8 was Mr. Dosen and the other one was Tomo Prodan? Do you remember him? Do

9 you remember Tomo Prodan?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. Well, it may be that if he was only there for seven or ten days

12 after you arrived -- was there some talk that he'd been removed, do you

13 remember, for stealing a sheep from a Muslim house? Do you remember

14 that? Gossip?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. And that after the 15th of June, the third shift, the leading

17 guard was Fustar? Do you remember that?

18 A. The shifts changed. I don't know whether there was a third shift,

19 but now -- it was like now. Sometimes you have one week one, and the

20 second the other, and the third the third one.

21 Q. So is it fair to say that you're confused in your recollection

22 about the shifts? And I'll leave it like that if you are. Is that

23 right? Is that right? We must have an answer from you. Otherwise, they

24 can't write it down, you see.

25 A. Yes, you can have a -- you can get an answer from me, but I don't

Page 2815

1 know if you understand. In this camp soldiers were coming and going,

2 whatever shift they were, first or third. If they had some business there

3 to do, if they wanted to do something, they came. They didn't have fixed

4 times when they would come and go.

5 Q. And you're talking about visitors, unpleasant visitors, some of

6 whom were soldiers, who came at all times of the day and night, with

7 weapons, and did beastly things to detainees. You're talking about that,

8 are you?

9 A. I'm also talking about the guards who were there.

10 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you about visitors. You went into a

11 visitor-description mode just now. I was asking you firstly whether you

12 had a clear recollection of how many -- just a moment, just a moment --

13 how many shifts there were, and you're confused about that,

14 understandably, aren't you?

15 A. Yes, it's clear to me, yes.

16 Q. And you're saying your confusion is clear to you?

17 A. It is clear to me that there were three shifts.

18 Q. You have no recollection of there being a time when there were two

19 shifts?

20 A. I don't recall that time.

21 Q. And you don't recall ever having heard of the man Tomo Prodan?

22 A. I didn't hear.

23 Q. Never heard of the man Fustar as being a shift -- in charge of a

24 shift?

25 A. I heard that name, Fustar.

Page 2816

1 Q. You heard it but you don't know whether he was in charge of a

2 shift or not?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And I think you've answered to previous counsel asking you

5 questions that you don't know anything about the disciplinary system that

6 existed in the camp; is that right, between the guards?

7 A. I don't know that any one of them was disciplined for anything.

8 Q. No, no.

9 A. That they were punished for anything -- any of the things that

10 they did.

11 Q. They may have been or they may not have been; you don't know?

12 A. That is your opinion, but do you know yourself?

13 Q. Let -- no, I can't answer your question. I'm not allowed to. Do

14 you know whether anybody was disciplined or not in the camp? Yes or no?

15 A. I don't know whether any of these -- of these soldiers were

16 disciplined, but because they were there all the time, that means there

17 was never any punishment.

18 Q. No. I see. You draw that conclusion, do you, that because they

19 were there all the time, there was no discipline exercised on anybody who

20 did anything wrong? That's your conclusion? Well, I come back to the

21 question that I ask: Do you know whether any guard was disciplined for

22 any act at all at Keraterm while you were there? Yes or no?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And is it right that you do not know what order any of the guards

25 were in, that is what hierarchy there was amongst the guards? Yes or no?

Page 2817













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 2818

1 A. I know.

2 Q. Sorry, I didn't quite gather that. Yes, did you know what the

3 order of hierarchy was between any of the guards? Yes or no?

4 A. Yes, because the shift commanders could prevent, and as I said

5 sometimes did prevent, and the common guards would obey then.

6 Q. Apart from that, do you know what the order was?

7 A. I don't know about the order. I don't know that there was any

8 particular order there.

9 Q. Thank you. And what you then went on to say was that people came

10 in and went, and you agreed with me, and did beastly things to detainees,

11 who were not the regular guards.

12 A. They were regular guards, and their beastly behaviour is something

13 that you should have seen, and it is some -- that is something totally

14 different from having experienced it.

15 Q. I understand that. Just let's see clearly what it is you are

16 saying. Apart from people who you've described, like the Banovics and

17 Goran Kotroman and various other people who you've named, outsiders came

18 in, mostly at night, and did bad things. Do you agree with that?

19 A. I agree.

20 Q. And some of them were armed with guns?

21 A. In 1992 there was no Serb who did not have arms.

22 Q. So the answer is yes?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And some of them were soldiers or dressed like soldiers, in

25 uniform?

Page 2819

1 A. They were dressed like soldiers, in uniform.

2 Q. And they just barged their way in and did what they liked?

3 A. That's exactly how they did it.

4 Q. And just finally, please, Witness M: You've told us that you saw

5 Kole in the circumstances in which you've described on the 24th of July,

6 during the massacre. Did you ever see him in the camp again?

7 A. Yes, I saw him in the camp.

8 Q. Well, I suggest that he left Keraterm on the 25th and was never

9 there again.

10 A. That is what you say.

11 Q. When you --

12 A. This is what you say.

13 Q. We can prove it, you see. There's evidence of this, quite ... Can

14 you --



17 Q. Can you tell us when you saw --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly is on her feet.

19 MR. LAWRENCE: I'm so sorry.

20 MS. BALY: I do object to counsel making comments like that to the

21 witness. He's entitled to ask questions, but not entitled to tell the

22 witness the evidence that he has.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. [Microphone not activated]

24 MR. LAWRENCE: Of course, I'm in the difficulty -- I thought that

25 that evidence, or some of it, had already been adduced, but until I've

Page 2820

1 read it all, I suppose I'm vulnerable to that criticism, and I accept it.

2 Q. When do you say you saw Kole after the night of the shooting?

3 A. I continued to see him during shifts.

4 Q. When next?

5 A. I saw him the very next morning.

6 Q. What time?

7 A. I told you: In the morning, and the morning can be 8.00 or 9.00

8 or 5.00 or 6.00.

9 Q. Help us. You didn't have a watch, but even you can tell the

10 difference between 5.00 and 6.00 and 8.00 and 9.00, can't you? What are

11 you trying to tell us? You saw him at about what time? I won't hold you

12 to the minute.

13 A. I could only tell by -- I could only orient myself by the sun.

14 Let's say it was 6.00 when the sun came up.

15 Q. All right. And what was he doing?

16 A. He was moving about the perimeter.

17 Q. That's all you can say about it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. All right. Well, now, after then, when did you next see Kole in

20 the camp?

21 A. The next day.

22 Q. Are you sure about that? That's the 26th. Are you sure about

23 that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Why can you be so sure about it? Have you ever been asked about

Page 2821

1 this before in your interviews?

2 A. I am sure.

3 Q. Are you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what answer do you think you gave, or what statement did you

6 make about seeing Kole after -- the morning after the shooting? What do

7 you think you said to the investigator about Kole?

8 A. That I had seen him.

9 MR. LAWRENCE: Perhaps in due course we might have an admission

10 about that from the Prosecution.

11 Q. Yes. So you saw him the day later. Time?

12 A. I don't know what time exactly.

13 Q. Well, if you don't, I don't, and you're the one that says that you

14 saw him. Roughly what time?

15 A. I don't know exactly at what time. During the day.

16 Q. Can you be sure?

17 A. Yes, I can be sure, and I am sure that it was during the day, but

18 I don't know what time exactly.

19 Q. After nine years, never having been asked this before, you can be

20 sure that you saw him sometime two days after the shooting? Are you

21 really telling the Court that?

22 A. Nobody had asked me such questions until today, but I am sure that

23 I saw him.

24 Q. Doing what?

25 A. He was moving about the perimeter.

Page 2822

1 Q. That's on the 27th, is it -- 26th?

2 A. As I said, I do not recall the dates exactly.

3 Q. The day after, the morning after the shooting?

4 A. The day after the shooting.

5 Q. After that, did you see him again, are you telling us, on the

6 camp?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When?

9 A. After the shooting, I kept seeing him until the camp was

10 disbanded.

11 Q. So your evidence is, on oath, that Kole was on the camp every day

12 between the shooting and the day that the camp was dissolved?

13 A. Exactly like that.

14 Q. And you have a clear recollection of that, do you?

15 A. I have a clear recollection of that, and I stand by my words.

16 Q. And I stand by my words. Every day after the shooting; Kole, on

17 the camp. Doing anything in particular?

18 A. Nothing in particular.

19 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.

21 Ms. Baly.

22 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Re-examined by Ms. Baly:

24 Q. Witness M, you were asked a number of questions regarding the

25 calling-out incident that took place on the afternoon or the evening prior

Page 2823

1 to the massacre, and in particular you were asked questions about the

2 times of the shift changes that day. One of the answers you gave, Witness

3 M, was this: "They were all there. They were all mixed in together." My

4 question is: What did you mean when you said that?

5 A. That something out of the ordinary was being prepared.

6 Q. Who were you referring to when you said, "They were all there.

7 They were all mixed in together"?

8 A. I was referring to the guards.

9 Q. You were asked some questions by Mr. Petrovic on behalf of the

10 accused Kajin, and in particular you were asked this question: "Is it

11 true Kajin put an end to incidents if they happened?" Your answer was:

12 "Well, when these incidents would be already coming to an end, it was

13 then that he would do it." Can you explain, please, what you meant by

14 that answer?

15 A. It's very simple. For instance, there was a night shift. While

16 he was there, indeed, these things did not happen, beatings. When I said

17 this, I'm referring to beatings, mistreatment, things like that. At the

18 time when the rooms were locked up, Kajin would leave, and it didn't make

19 sense that the same key would arrive, people would be taken out and

20 beaten, and when this would be almost over, then he would reappear, he

21 would stop, prevent it. So there were different ways to do this.

22 Q. Can you recall any specific incident when that happened?

23 A. There was any number of these cases. I cannot recall any specific

24 case.

25 Q. And finally, Witness M, you spoke in your cross-examination about

Page 2824

1 the beating of Drago Tokmadzic, and you said that Goran Lajic beat him.

2 Who was Goran Lajic?

3 A. That was a person -- how shall I describe him? He was known

4 around town by not very positive acts and behaviour.

5 Q. What was his role at Keraterm camp?

6 A. A visitor.

7 MS. BALY: Thank you. Those are my questions.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Baly.

9 Witness M, that completes your evidence. You are released.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld?

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours, I'm looking at the time. I

14 propose to start our next witness, Witness K29. He does have a previous

15 order permitting facial distortion and a pseudonym, and I believe that the

16 pseudonym for this witness would then become Witness N. Is that correct,

17 Madam Registrar?



20 MR. RYNEVELD: The usher is not here to call him in but --

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I should say, Sir Ivan, if you're not in a

23 position to cross-examine today, the witness will be recalled.

24 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, thank you very much for that. And my learned

25 co-counsel, Mr. Ostojic, is due to catch a plane back to the United

Page 2825













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 2826

1 States, I think, at early afternoon, so he can't be here this afternoon.

2 Your Honour. My learned friend Mr. Ryneveld and I have spoken about this,

3 and I think he is anxious that the witness be called and started but that

4 he doesn't expect to take the evidence very far. And my application would

5 be that that process take until about the lunchtime adjournment and that

6 the court rises.

7 If you wish me to address you further on the point, this is a very

8 important witness indeed, as it affects my client. It's evidence which

9 has not been served on us before this week. And if I may say so, without

10 any hint of levity, we have been asked to get on with three witnesses, the

11 Prosecution have had two to completion, and in my respectful submission,

12 two out of three is a very good achievement in the circumstances.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: In relation to the application that has been

15 made, the Chamber has decided that we will commence the taking of this

16 witness' evidence but we will stop at 1.15 for the day.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I just want to clarify

18 something about what my friend has suggested, and I'm not in any way

19 attempting to make any comments about the court's decision. I'm only

20 saying that my concern is that my friend had an opportunity to

21 cross-examine and had an opportunity for the break. I didn't know when we

22 would start. And I'm quite happy with the order. For my friend, however,

23 to then say that they just got notice of this information this week, this

24 information was served -- everything has been served on the Defence right

25 from the beginning. Mr. -- Sir Ivan actually got an additional copy when

Page 2827

1 he was still counsel. Not only did we give it to Mr. Vucicevic, we gave

2 it to Sir Ivan. These summaries have been available to counsel for

3 Mr. Kolundzija, as for all the other counsel, for some time.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld. The matter has been

5 settled in the way that I've announced. Yes.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: If the usher could bring in Witness N, please? And

7 because I do not have a sheet with the name to the number, could we start

8 for one question in private session? I didn't prepare a sheet.


10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 2828

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [Open session]

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Are we open? Thank you.

14 Q. Witness, do I understand correctly, sir, that you were born and

15 lived pretty well all of your life in the village of Rakovcani, in the

16 Brdo area?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it's also fair to say, sir, that you are known as a Bosniak,

19 which is a person of the Muslim faith living in Bosnia?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Sir, I'd like you to turn your mind to the 30th of April of 1992.

22 Can you tell us, sir: Is my understanding correct that at about that

23 time, the Serb forces disarmed the Muslim police in your village?

24 A. It was on the 30th of April, when Serb forces and police disarmed

25 the police force; that is, their fellow workers, who are Muslims,

Page 2829

1 Bosniaks, in Prijedor. And then in the morning of the 1st of May, they

2 hoisted up the Serb flag in Prijedor.

3 Q. And after that incident --

4 A. May I continue?

5 Q. Certainly.

6 A. And then they set up a checkpoint on the bridge in Prijedor; that

7 is, on the Prijedor bank, that is, on the Sana bank, before you cross the

8 bridge to the other side.

9 Q. I see. And, sir, just please correct me if I'm wrong, but I

10 understand that on the 22nd of May there was an incident where there was a

11 tank that arrived in Tukovi; is that correct?

12 A. It is. That incident happened on the 22nd of May. Now, I cannot

13 give you the exact time, but it was towards the evening, in late

14 afternoon. I can tell you what I heard. I did not see that.

15 Q. That's fine. And after that incident, was the village of

16 Hambarine attacked by a tank or some other source of weaponry?

17 A. Yes. Following that incident, late afternoon or in the evening, a

18 tank was switched on. We could hear it, because we are slightly above

19 Prijedor. I cannot give you the exact altitude. But one could hear the

20 tank being switched on - I suppose it was in the Prijedor barracks - and

21 arrive in Tukovi. And then, over a PA system, they invited the people of

22 Hambarine -- or let me quote it: "Citizens of Hambarine, you've got two

23 hours, until 10.00," which means it was around 8.00. "By 10.00 -- you

24 have time until 10.00 to turn over Aziz Aliskovic or else we shall use

25 force." And they repeated that time and time again. But Aziz Aliskovic

Page 2830

1 did not surrender, and then four shells were fired from that same tank on

2 Hambarine.

3 After that, until the next morning, nothing special happened. But

4 then the next morning, the Radio Prijedor, because the power -- there was

5 a power cut. They had switched off the power, but we had our flashlights

6 or something, from tractors or cars, so that we could switch on -- switch

7 our -- plug our radios into tractors or cars and listen to Radio

8 Prijedor. Of course, Radio Prijedor is a story unto itself, because it

9 was propaganda - what do I call it? - anti-Muslim propaganda. They called

10 us Green Berets and --

11 Q. I understand that there is a lot of detail, and there is a lot of

12 detail you can share with this Court. However, in this particular area,

13 is it fair to say that you heard over Radio Prijedor certain propaganda

14 and certain matters that you were able to hear on your radio, and

15 eventually that there was -- your village was attacked and the residents

16 fled to the surrounding forests? Is that the effect of what happened

17 after that? Am I fair to say that?

18 A. Yes. They invited the population of Hambarine -- perhaps not all

19 villagers, yes, to hand over our weapons, that we had time until 4.00 to

20 lay down our weapons or else they would use force. And then, because

21 those weapons were not handed over, then they began to shell Brda.

22 Q. All right. So they did use force, and the result of that was the

23 residents of your village fled; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, to the surrounding forests. Yes, they fled from their homes.

25 Q. I want to move on now from that incident. I realise it's a major

Page 2831

1 incident in your life, sir, but I want to turn your evidence at this

2 point, the focus of your evidence now, to the 24th of May, 1992, so we're

3 talking a couple of days later. And what happened between the 24th of May

4 and the 19th of July?

5 A. Well, between the 19th -- on the 19th of July, that is, there was

6 this incident in the village of Rizvanovici, more or less around the

7 mosque, around the Rizvanovici mosque. And I can also --

8 Q. We're going to deal with that in a moment, but I'm asking now

9 about the period between the 24th of May, leading up to the incident on

10 the 19th of July. Maybe I can ask you to agree whether this is an

11 appropriate summary, that basically, there were some -- there were more

12 attacks on your village during that period of time, more than one attack?

13 A. Yes indeed. There were attacks. There were incursions in the

14 village, and the Serb forces would make sallies, and on one occasion, they

15 asked for hodja, for Rakovcani hodja, and once a group of soldiers came.

16 My house mainly is about 50 metres away from the Rakovcani mosque, and

17 they pulled up in front of our house and -- I don't mean my house, my

18 father's house. And they pulled up there and requested that all men come

19 out. They had the Hambarine hodja with them. And since I had

20 accommodated refugees from neighbouring villages, from the Bosanski Novi

21 municipality, my uncle was there and his brother and their families. They

22 were all in our house. And so my mother went out. They wanted all the

23 men to come out, and my mother said, "They will if you don't fire at

24 them." And the soldier cursed, said something, "Balija mother" or

25 something, and said, "You come out or else we come in." So we did. My

Page 2832

1 brother went out first, and I followed. There were eight of us were men,

2 and that soldier said, "Yes, the such like we are looking for." I guess

3 that he meant that we were young and well. And, oh, they also rounded up

4 more neighbours so that we were some 16 of us altogether, 16 men, and they

5 began to question each one of us, "Where is Rakovcani hodja?" I was I

6 think the fifth one in line.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness is running away again from you,

8 Mr. --

9 MR. RYNEVELD: To a certain extent, although, Your Honour, he has

10 just now got to the point where they are asking about hodja.

11 Q. Let me try to pinpoint some of the areas that I'm going to ask you

12 to tell the Court about, if I may, please, sir.

13 This hodja, what does that word mean? Is that a Muslim priest?

14 Is that a Muslim clergyman? And they were interested in finding out where

15 he was; is that correct? Nodding your head meaning yes?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. And, sir, do I understand that when all these men and your

18 neighbours were called out, what -- and this questioning was going on, was

19 there any mistreatment going on, in addition to the questioning?

20 A. Well, I was about to tell you about it.

21 Q. I understand that. Tell us now.

22 A. Yes. They began to beat those people. That is, whenever somebody

23 would say that he did not know, they would take him some 10 or 15 metres

24 away and start to beat him. And then my and my brother's turn came, and I

25 said that hodja had fled, and that he was not there.

Page 2833













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 2834

1 Q. All right. Did you know any of the people, the soldiers, that

2 were involved in the calling out of the men that you've told about? Did

3 you recognise any of these people at that time?

4 A. Yes. I saw Predrag Banovic there, he's nicknamed Cupo, whom I did

5 not know before but then I saw him again in Keraterm.

6 Q. Do I understand you to be telling us that at the time that you

7 were being called out, that is on this incident on the 24th of May, you

8 did not know this person by name; is that correct?

9 A. Did not, that's right.

10 Q. You later recognised -- when you were at Keraterm, when you knew

11 this person's name, you realised that he had been involved in the incident

12 on the 24th of May; is that what you're telling us?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. Now, let's turn now, if you would, please, to the 19th

15 of July -- oh, just one other question. These soldiers, do you know what

16 their ethnicity was or were you able to tell?

17 A. But of course, they were Serb soldiers, because they were cursing

18 at our balija mothers and similar things, and abuse.

19 Q. Some of my questions may sound rather simplistic, sir, but I do

20 have a purpose in asking them. Now, on the 19th of July, 1992, sir, did

21 some other event happen that resulted in further arrests of people and

22 shelling of the villages in the Brdo area?

23 A. Yes. A Serb soldier was killed there, near Rifet Dedic's house,

24 and I can also tell you what I heard about it because I did not see it.

25 Q. Well, I'm not that interested in the incident about the killing

Page 2835

1 itself, but I take it that event, however it happened, precipitated what

2 happened afterwards. In other words, as a result of that, stuff started

3 to happen. Tell us about what happened after that event.

4 A. Well, when that Serb soldier was killed, two or three vans or

5 something, vehicles, arrived and rounded up, that is arrested, the

6 villagers who lived around Rifet Dedic's house and took them to Prijedor.

7 And when the -- after those Serb soldiers left that place, the shelling of

8 Rizvanovici began, or to be more accurate, around the Rizvanovici's

9 mosque. That must have been a reference point or whatever. And about 20

10 shells fell around the mosque in Rizvanovici, and it was pretty densely

11 populated too. There were a number of houses there.

12 Q. Following the shelling, were you and other men arrested?

13 A. Yes. The next morning, on the 20th of July, around 11.00, they

14 started to arrest people from their homes, the Serb soldiers. They must

15 have surrounded Brdo or something. And at that time, I was at home, as I

16 was there all the time. I was at home. My brother was there, and my

17 uncle's son. And Serb soldiers turned up, came up to my house, and said

18 that all men should come out. So I came out and my brother and my cousin

19 came out, and there was a column of men walking down the road, or rather

20 there were two columns, two files, and there were -- you had to put your

21 hands on the shoulders of the man in front of you, and that is how we went

22 with our hands on the shoulders of the ones in front of us.

23 Q. If I can stop you there, do I understand correctly that the men

24 who were gathered were then marched in the way you've described, one hand

25 on the shoulder of the man in front of you, to the school, Rizvanovici; is

Page 2836

1 that correct, that you were taken to a school?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Now, during this particular gathering process, did you -- can you

4 tell us, did you see any mistreatment of anyone during that process?

5 A. Yes, blows were dealt, beaten. I got a foot in my stomach. And

6 as I came up to that column, a soldier, a Serb soldier, and he had a red

7 beret, I remember that, he kicked me in the stomach. So that I joined the

8 column as fast as I could and put my hands on the shoulders in front of --

9 the man in front of me, but other people, were, yes, ill-treated and

10 beaten. On the way to Rizvanovic, we had to sing the song, "Who says

11 Serbia is small?" And that is how we would walk and halt as they gathered

12 men from surrounding houses, and took us to the school at Rizvanovici.

13 Q. Do you recall whether or not there was an epileptic man in that

14 village, and if so, what happened to him?

15 A. Yes, true. There was an epileptic man, a man suffering from

16 epilepsy, and he showed his medical papers, showing that he was a sick

17 man, but they did not seem to be happy with that and they beat him right

18 there, that is by the Rizvanovici school. They beat him up, and I do not

19 know -- that man went towards Duratovici, there was that other road, and

20 he went there with one of his arms stretched like that, and he was

21 stuttering as if he were drunk, that is what it looked like, but they beat

22 him there.

23 Q. All right. Now, sir, I understand that buses arrived and a number

24 of the men who had been gathered at that school were then taken eventually

25 by bus; is that correct?

Page 2837

1 A. It is.

2 Q. And you were taken to Keraterm?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, while you were being -- or during the process of being loaded

5 on to the buses, can you tell us what else happened to you? You've

6 already told us about you being kicked in the stomach, et cetera, but was

7 there a process that the -- that your captors used before loading you on

8 to the buses?

9 A. Well, they brought us to that school there, and then buses arrived

10 and they separated men over 60,, they put them to one side. That is,

11 first they seized our identity papers. That is, to prove that you were

12 over 60, you had to show them your identity card, but they wouldn't trust

13 you even if you looked old. It did not help. You had to show your

14 identity card to prove that you were over 60. And the rest of us were put

15 on the bus and driven to Keraterm. And on our way to Keraterm, but mostly

16 -- I mean, it's really curious that those men who were -- who had short

17 hair, who had their hair cut short, that it was at them that they focused

18 on, that they beat more, called them Ustasha, those men who had short

19 hair. I don't know why it bothered them because at that time it was

20 really very hot in Bosnia. I mean, that July was very hot there.

21 Q. All right, sir. Now, when you were put on the buses, I understand

22 that you were searched and your papers, et cetera, to show age. What

23 happened, if anything, to your valuables?

24 A. Well, when we got to Keraterm, there was a hut there in front, a

25 booth, and that is where they searched us and seized everything of any

Page 2838

1 importance; I mean money and gold. And they took our names in a book of

2 sorts or something. That was prior to entering Keraterm itself, in a

3 booth. That is, that particular booth is inside the Keraterm, but before

4 we entered the room. And then prior to entering, they had a bus from

5 Biscani had also driven up and there were also men in it, but those men

6 were bare foot, they had no footwear or anything. And those people were

7 made to get off on the grassy area in front of that hut, and the guards

8 were saying that it was full up, that there would be no room for those men

9 there, but they nevertheless left those men from Biscani there. And the

10 bus went then back and returned with two men, with two Muslims from Brdo,

11 from Biscani, who had either been tied up to the rails in the bus or

12 something, but they also came back, and three or four soldiers with a

13 driver, and they beat them. They drove back towards Prijedor, and beat

14 them. I did not see those men again or anything. But --

15 Q. So you saw beating of some of the men on the other bus. Now, once

16 you were processed, and you say a list of names was made, et cetera, you

17 were searched, were you put in a room in Keraterm, and if so, what number

18 was it?

19 A. They took us to an empty room. We were assigned to it. I later

20 on found out that it was Room 3. It was empty and seemed to have been

21 prepared for us, and that was Room 3.

22 Q. How many people entered that room with you when you arrived at

23 Keraterm on the 20th of July?

24 A. Well, just as many as could fit in and have the door closed.

25 That's how many we were. And I said that I'd say it was between 250 to

Page 2839

1 300 men, even though I couldn't give you the exact number.

2 Q. And when you were put in that room, were you allowed contact with

3 any prisoners that day, other prisoners from the camp, other than the

4 people in your room, of course?

5 A. No, not on that day. Not then. But when they rounded us up, they

6 allowed several people to go out in front of our room, so that they talked

7 to the soldiers there, the Serb soldiers. And there was one who had known

8 Cupo Banovic because they had gone to school together, and so they

9 talked. For the most part, they asked who had a good car, who had a lot

10 of money, so that they would talk there. There were some people who knew

11 some other guards, so they talked to them, and they told us that nothing

12 would happen to us who was not guilty; that they would not be harmed; that

13 they would not touch us, things like that.

14 Q. Were people touched?

15 A. Not that day. However, in the evening, when they locked us up,

16 they brought prisoners from other rooms - I don't know which ones exactly

17 - and they started beating them in front of our window. These were

18 terrible screams. For us this was new. And these were not screams. This

19 was -- I don't know. Moaning is something else, but what was going on in

20 front of our window didn't look normal to us. It was the first time in my

21 life that I heard such screams.

22 Q. Now, you mentioned just a moment ago in your evidence that one of

23 the prisoners knew a Cupo Banovic from school. How did you know that the

24 person he was speaking to was Cupo Banovic? Did you know that or did he

25 tell you about it, or how did you know that the person he was talking to

Page 2840

1 was Cupo Banovic?

2 A. He himself called him. I don't know how he addressed him. Petar

3 or something. They did not embrace, but they got together and they

4 talked. He then later said that he had gone to school with him and things

5 like that, that that was Predrag Banovic. And later on in the camp we

6 also learned that he was this Cupo, Predrag Banovic. The nickname Cupo

7 was referring to his wearing his hair long. That's what I think he got

8 the nickname for.

9 Q. And was it then at some subsequent time that you recognised that

10 the man your fellow detainee was speaking to was the same person who had

11 been involved in the earlier incident on the attack on your village?

12 A. Yes. I immediately recognised him. I did recognise him. And it

13 seems as if he had recognised me too, because he told me, "We know each

14 other," and I told him no, I had never seen him before. This is what I

15 said. But I immediately recognised him as soon as I arrived at Keraterm.

16 I knew that that was the same person who was at Brdo when we were brought

17 out to be executed.

18 Q. All right, sir. Now, the following morning after your

19 arrival - so I guess we're now up to the 21st of July, if my math is

20 correct - were some of the prisoners taken out for work duties? Do you

21 know who they were?

22 A. Excuse me. Can you repeat it?

23 Q. Sure, and I'll shorten it. The following morning, were some of

24 the prisoners in your room taken out apparently to do work?

25 A. Yes. That was the second day. They came and asked for six men to

Page 2841













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 2842

1 go to work. They brought out six men. Muhamed, Sivac [phoen], Muhamed

2 and Mesud Aliskovic [as interpreted] were among them. Those were the

3 three I knew by sight. They took them away and these men never came back

4 to Keraterm.

5 Q. Now, let's talk about your stay in Room 3. When you first got

6 there, you told us that you were not allowed out that particular day. Did

7 that change? Were you eventually allowed out of the room?

8 A. That was only later, but the following day we were lying in the

9 grass for three or four hours. The sun was killing us. We were lying in

10 the grass in the sun.

11 Q. Why were you doing that?

12 A. It was only later that we learned why we were lying there. We

13 ourselves did not know at the time why.

14 Q. Did you do that voluntarily or were you instructed to lie on the

15 grass in the hot sun?

16 A. No, it wasn't voluntarily. They told us, "Get out and lie down on

17 your stomach with your hands behind your head, with the forehead touching

18 the ground," and this is how we lay for three or four hours. It was only

19 later when we learned why, when Kolundzija came with his team.

20 Q. We'll get to that in a moment, but I did interrupt you, sir.

21 You've told us that you were lying in the sun. What happened?

22 A. We were lying in the sun, and about 20 metres away Kajin put up a

23 chair. I think he had like a beer in his hand. He had his rifle trained

24 at us, and he told us whoever raises his head will not survive, so that we

25 lay there motionless. My forehead was burning. I did not dare budge for

Page 2843

1 fear of being killed.

2 Q. After three or four hours of lying there, what happened next?

3 A. Then Kolundzija arrived with his team, with these soldiers. I

4 don't know how to call them. And then they started --

5 Q. Before we get onto Kolundzija arriving with his team, there are a

6 couple of other questions I want to ask you before that. While you were

7 in Room 3 and allowed out, did you get to mingle or could you see other

8 prisoners from other rooms?

9 A. Yes, we could see them, but contacting was difficult. It was not

10 allowed. But the people who were there, they were beaten up. They had

11 bruises. Their faces were disfigured. So that after the first night,

12 after we had heard those screams, we knew why these people looked like

13 that. We knew that they were being beaten up and mistreated.

14 Q. Sir, after the three or four days -- for the three or four days

15 after you arrived at Keraterm, were the prisoners in Room 3, including

16 you, were you given any food at all?

17 A. Food was for the others, the other inmates from Rooms 1, 2, and

18 4. The first day we received nothing. The second day those who were

19 under age received something. I think that there were 30 or 40 of them,

20 and they each received a slice of bread, but they were like see-through or

21 transparent slices. And we could just watch; we did not receive anything.

22 Q. So did I understand you to say that only the under-age men

23 received a thin slice of bread from Room 3?

24 A. It wasn't meant for them. We let them have it. We just saw that

25 there wasn't enough for us, so we let the under-age ones have the bread.

Page 2844

1 Q. When you say "under age," what age are we talking about, sir?

2 Under what age?

3 A. I think that we call those under 18 under age.

4 Q. Now, do you remember the names of any of the detainees that were

5 beaten, to your knowledge?

6 A. I remember that was Emsud Aliskovic, Hasan Crljenkovic, and a

7 dark-haired man called Avdic, and there were others who were beaten up,

8 Fazlic. This happened on the second night, and that is the night when

9 they started bringing us out too. They would bring out six men at a time,

10 two times six, whom they beat up outside.

11 Q. And these men that you've just mentioned weren't prisoners from

12 other rooms; these were actually prisoners in Room 3 with you; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes. These were people from our room.

15 Q. When did the beatings of people in your room start? You told us

16 the first night nobody in your room was, but you could see other prisoners

17 from other rooms being beaten in front of your room. Now you've told us

18 that there are people from your room, and you've named at least three of

19 them who were beaten. When did those beatings of people in your room

20 start?

21 A. The second night.

22 Q. All right. And you were about to tell us the process or the

23 procedure, how many people were called out. Would it just be one call-out

24 of some people or would this happen more frequently? Tell us about that.

25 A. No, there was not a single calling out. A soldier would come in

Page 2845

1 front of the door and he would call out names, full names, individually,

2 and when these people responded, he would tell them to step back from the

3 door. Then the door would open and they would step outside. And then

4 they would take -- and it was only later that I learned where they taking

5 them. That is when I myself was taken out to be beaten at night.

6 Q. Would these people come back after sometime?

7 A. Yes. They did come back, but what shape they were in is hard to

8 describe. They were beaten up. They were disfigured. These people could

9 not walk. They came and called out others to carry those people who had

10 been beaten up, carry them back in the room, and then those who were

11 brought -- who were called out would be beaten themselves in turn. These

12 -- later on, these people changed the shape of their head. They looked

13 -- their heads looked twice the size of their normal heads. They were --

14 they had -- they had traces of beating on their heads, chests, backs,

15 arms. We tried helping them, we tried to help them with our -- we would

16 use clothes to help them and --

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Your Honours, I note the time and I

18 think this is a particularly good time to stop, before we get into

19 paragraph 6. I propose to stop now unless you wish me to continue.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I think it's an appropriate time.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: This witness has been here a number of occasions,

22 and I'm afraid that we are at a stage where we are unable to finish his

23 evidence today. Perhaps the court can indicate to the witness the

24 necessity for his return when we resume.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2846













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 2847

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness N, we are going to have to break. We

2 will be taking a break for about 12 days. We are going to resume on

3 Wednesday, the 16th, and we will commence with your evidence on Wednesday

4 morning, the 16th, at 9.30. You have been here before, but the court

5 requests that you be here on Wednesday morning, the 16th, at 9.30 so that

6 we can complete your evidence. During the adjournment, you are not to

7 discuss your evidence with anybody, and that includes the members of the

8 Prosecution.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Just so that the witness is clear, obviously

10 arrangements need to be made for him for transport. He understands he

11 can't discuss his evidence but it gets difficult.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you're free to discuss the logistical

13 arrangements for your being here with the Prosecution, the members of the

14 Prosecution team.

15 We take the adjournment now until Wednesday, the 16th, at 9.30.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

17 1.17 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday the 16th

18 day of May, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.