1 Thursday, 17 May 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated] Yes, Sir Ivan. Your
8 WITNESS: WITNESS N [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence: [Continued]
11 Q. Witness N, you told the Court --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel, please.
13 Q. You told the Court yesterday about three occasions when you saw
14 the man you call Mr. Kolundzija, firstly on the 23rd of July after you'd
15 been lying on your bellies on the pista for some hours; secondly on the
16 night of the 25th of July, the day after the Room 3 massacre, when the
17 naked man was taken out; and thirdly, and you weren't sure, either the
18 25th of July or the 26th of July, when you were beaten, and you say the
19 man was there. All right? Do you remember? I'm just setting the scene
20 for the questions I'm going to ask you. Is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You told the Court that you didn't yourself know the man that you
23 call Kolundzija, but that after the massacres on the 24th and 25th of
24 July, you overheard a conversation between two other people, and the man
25 who was speaking was called -- can you tell me the name again?
1 A. Causevic.
2 Q. Causevic?
3 A. Causevic.
4 Q. Where in the course of the conversation they referred to a guard
5 commander called Kolundzija; is that right?
6 A. Yes, but not only him.
7 Q. And that that man could not have seen the man who was present at
8 the incident with the naked man, nor could he have seen the incident when
9 you were beaten.
10 A. Whether he saw the incident or not, I cannot tell you that, but he
11 was not with us in the room.
12 Q. That's right. Thank you. And did he say that he saw the first
13 incident that took place on the pista on the 23rd?
14 A. I did not understand what you were referring to. The first
15 incident that occurred on the 23rd?
16 Q. Yes. Did he say he saw that incident when Mr. Fazlic was
18 A. No. He couldn't have said that.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, if witnesses were to say that Banovic was a guard
20 on somebody else's watch shift, not Kolundzija's, might you be wrong in
21 calling the man on the 23rd Kolundzija?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Not even possibly wrong? Not possible?
24 A. No.
25 Q. If witnesses say that Kolundzija left the camp on the morning of
1 the 25th of July when the guard shift changed at between 6.00 and 7.00 in
2 the morning and didn't come back to the camp until several days later
3 because he'd gone to Belgrade, might you be wrong calling the man who
4 behaved in that way on the 25th and 26th Kolundzija?
5 A. No.
6 Q. It's not even possible?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Well, since you didn't know Mr. Kolundzija by sight yourself --
9 that's your evidence; is that right?
10 A. Yes. I had never seen the gentleman before.
11 Q. And only gathered that he was called Kolundzija from a
12 conversation you overheard; is that right?
13 A. I only connected facts and events with the man whom I saw and
14 later on learned his full name and his nickname Kole and so on.
15 Q. And that knowledge came to you some days after the events that
16 you've described. I think you've agreed with that. When the person
17 speaking had not himself witnessed the events; you agree with that, don't
19 A. Sir, you see, if you see something and then if you see a person,
20 you just need to learn their name. So you ask whose shift was on that
21 day. If this gentleman has a twin brother there in the camp, that I don't
23 Q. Yes. So it's because you were told that he was the one whose
24 shift was on that day, is it now?
25 A. During the massacre, the first one, and in the night of the second
1 massacre, I saw it myself.
2 Q. And no other witnesses -- are you aware that no other witnesses
3 have so far said that they ever saw Kolundzija present at a beating? Do
4 you know that?
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes?
7 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect, how would this witness be permitted
8 to know that?
9 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. Quite right. I accept that.
10 Q. But if that is the fact, Witness N, doesn't that make it possible
11 that you may be mistaken?
12 A. I said that I was not mistaken.
13 Q. Adding these things up, you see, if there is evidence that Banovic
14 was never on Kolundzija's shift and that he was nowhere near Keraterm on
15 the dates you mention, wouldn't that make you a little more uncertain
16 about your -- whether or not Mr. Kolundzija was the man?
17 A. I wouldn't waver. We knew that Kolundzija was the next one in
18 terms of shifts. But the other inmates, those who had been veterans
19 there, they -- the ones from Rooms 1 and 2, they said -- they confirmed
20 that it was his shift because they had a better view. We couldn't see.
21 Q. But are you not following, Witness N? None of them saw
22 Mr. Kolundzija doing anything on these -- at these three events, did they,
23 on your evidence?
24 A. I don't know who saw what. That I don't know.
25 Q. Are you actually trying to be fair?
1 A. I'm trying to be fair and I'm trying to be helpful here, and I
2 don't think that I'm alone here. I am certain that there are other
3 witnesses who will corroborate, maybe even add details, but I'm trying to
4 remember and to focus as best I can and to help this court. It is not in
5 my interest that somebody innocent or somebody who is guilty be set free.
6 I want to say what happened, what I saw, and it is up to this Honourable
7 Court to decide whatever.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan, we think you have taken this matter as
9 far as you can.
10 MR. LAWRENCE: If I may continue, please, because this is very
11 important to my client.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just very, very briefly.
13 MR. LAWRENCE:
14 Q. Can you tell us the name of any other witness, who was present at
15 any of these three events, who has ever told you that Kolundzija was
16 there? The name of any witness who was present who has ever told you that
17 Kolundzija was the man?
18 A. There are a number of names.
19 Q. Well, can we have them, please?
20 A. I would not like to bring some people in a situation that would
21 have some undesirable consequences.
22 MR. LAWRENCE: Perhaps I could ask the court if we could go into
23 private session for this.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
25 [Private session]
13 Page 2993-3001 redacted private session.
10 [Open session]
11 MR. LAWRENCE:
12 Q. Was that the truth, witness N? Were you telling us the truth that
13 you actually didn't see --
14 A. I saw Banovic there. I did not see him stab the man with his
16 Q. Did you say in your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on
17 the 16th of September, the same statement, at page 5, last paragraph,
18 "Predrag Banovic then stabbed Adem Fazlic in the back. He was lying
19 three away from me and I saw this"?
20 A. I saw Banovic, I repeated, I saw him there, and how can one see if
21 you're lying face down? How could you see him stab? And when he says,
22 "Well, if you don't kick the bucket by the time I get back, you'll get
23 another one," it must be the kidneys because there was this puddle of
24 blood. The man did not budge. The man did not move again. Perhaps he
25 bled to death.
1 Q. Will you not accept, Witness N, that when you made your statement
2 on the 16th of September there may have been an element of confusion of
3 the detail, brought on perhaps by the trauma and the passage of years?
4 A. There is no confusion. As for trauma, perhaps I would be
5 undergoing psychiatric treatment now. What I'm trying to do is live a
6 quiet, peaceful life, and try to make up for what I lost down there.
7 Q. Witness N, I have no doubt that you are a thoroughly decent man
8 who suffered horribly, but we must try and get the truth, nevertheless.
9 Do you understand what I'm trying to do?
10 A. I understand what you are trying to do, but will you please try to
11 understand me, understand that I'm trying to help you.
12 Q. Was it your evidence yesterday that on this first occasion on the
13 23rd of July that we're talking about, you were out in the sun from about
14 8.00, 9.00, or 10.00 in the morning, to 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon?
15 Was that your evidence yesterday?
16 A. I said that we spent three or four hours outside. It would have
17 been around 10.00 or 11.00 - I did not have any watch, we did not have any
18 watches - until about 2.00, perhaps, or until 1.00, but we were there for
19 about three or four hours.
20 Q. I understand why you can be maybe confused. I'm just trying to
21 pin down what you said and see how much we can rely upon it for its
23 Do you agree with me that yesterday you told us that you were out
24 in the sun from about 8.00, 9.00, or 10.00 in the morning until about 3.00
25 or 4.00 in the afternoon? Yes or no.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 A. I don't think it was quite like that. 8.00, 9.00, 10.00. I know
2 that we were down there for about three or four hours, and I know that
3 during the last hour, the sun was just too hot. It was too hot, and that
4 is why I may have thought that it was 2.00 or maybe 1.00. I told you, I
5 cannot give you the exact time. I did not have a watch. I just tried to
6 make an estimate.
7 Q. Do you accept that from what you told us yesterday, you were lying
8 there in the sun or out on the pista from five hours, if it was from 10.00
9 to 3.00, to eight hours, if it was from 8.00 to 4.00?
10 A. I did not give you the exact time. I said three or four hours.
11 Was it 9.00? Was it 10.00? I didn't have a watch. I cannot say it was
12 10.00 and we lay there until 1.00 or it was 11.00 and we were there until
13 2.00. I can't be as accurate as that.
14 Q. Did you say in the statement that you made to the Office of the
15 Prosecutor on the 19th -- on the 16th of September of 2000, page 5, last
16 paragraph: "We were forced to lie on our bellies in front of the room.
17 We lay out there for two or three hours"? Did you say that to the Office
18 of the Prosecutor?
19 A. Two to three?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. I don't think I could have said that. Three or four.
22 Q. If you would have said two or three, that would have been wrong,
23 would it?
24 A. It wasn't two hours. That I'm certain about. It was longer than
1 Q. Is the answer yes, that would have been wrong?
2 A. Two hours would be wrong. Three hours could be. Four hours could
3 be right again.
4 Q. So if you said that to the Office of the Prosecutor, that would be
5 a confused recollection of time, would it?
6 A. Well, had I had a watch, I would have been able to give you the
7 exact time to a minute, but since we had no watches since our watches had
8 been taken away from us, it was just my estimate as to how long we spent
9 there. And it was a long time. Try to picture yourself lying on the
10 grass, motionless, not allowed to budge, when your forehead is all
11 irritated. Would you be able to give the accurate estimate of the time
12 you spent there? Had I had a watch, I would have given you the exact
13 time, but that was just my approximate estimate.
14 Q. I just put to you, Witness N, three examples of small
15 inconsistencies between the evidence you gave us and the statement that I
16 suggest you made to the Prosecutor. Is it not possible that in all this
17 time, under all the circumstances, you are a little confused in your
18 recollection of these details?
19 A. I can be confused as regards the time, when I tried to think how
20 long it would be, but as for events, and I'm repeating it for the
21 umpteenth time, we did not have watches, so that it was just my
22 assumption. Another witness maybe will tell you that it was four or five
23 hours or two hours. This was my estimate, and I do not think that it was
24 less than three hours. And if you find another witness, he maybe will
25 tell you that it was five hours or four hours or two hours or three
1 hours. It all depends. This was my estimate.
2 Q. Will you next help us about another matter? Do you understand the
3 shift system that operated at Keraterm in July of 1992?
4 A. From 0600 to 1800.
5 Q. Yes. Three shifts?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Of 12 hours each, yes?
8 A. From 0600 to 1800, yes.
9 Q. So if a guard starts at 6.00 a.m., he works to 6.00 p.m., 0600 to
10 1800? Yes?
11 A. Yes, from 6.00 to 6.00.
12 Q. And the next shift comes on at 1800 and works to 0600 the next
14 A. That's how it should be.
15 Q. And the third shift comes on at 1800 and works through the night
16 to 0600 the next day. Yes?
17 A. From 0600 to 1800, from 1800 to 0600, from 0600 to 1800 and so on
18 and so forth. Now, whether they always went by that rule ...
19 Q. Yes. The point is that on this three-guard system, a guard who
20 was on duty for 12 hours would not be on duty again for 24 hours while the
21 other two shifts took place. Do you agree?
22 A. Yes, if the situation is regular. But perhaps somebody wanted to
23 stay a little bit overtime to earn some extra money.
24 Q. Yes. Of course any variation could have happened, but your
25 impression as a prisoner at the time was that this was the guard system in
1 operation, three shifts, 12 hours each; 6:00 morning to 6:00 in the
2 evening; 6:00 evening to 6:00 in the morning; 6:00 morning to 6:00 in the
3 evening; is that right?
4 A. Yes, but such a thing can be applied only in a prison.
5 Q. That means that a guard who was on for 12 hours would be off for
6 the next 24 hours; do you agree?
7 A. Under normal circumstances, yes.
8 Q. Kolundzija, you told the Prosecutor - and everybody else, or
9 nearly everybody else has said, and it's not disputed - was on duty on the
10 night of the Room 3 massacre, for that shift that begins at roughly 6.00
11 in the evening of the 24th, to 6.00 in the morning of the 25th. You don't
12 disagree with that, do you? Because I think that's what you've told us,
13 that it was -- you knew that Kolundzija's shift was on that night, but you
14 didn't see him, you heard this afterwards.
15 A. Yes. But the behaviour outside was quite different. Now, what
16 people were doing outside I cannot tell you, whether there were two shifts
17 or three shifts or whether one of the shifts had stayed on, whether
18 another shift has turned up. I could not tell you. If the normal rule
19 was to work from 6.00 to 1800, then -- but I don't know. I think that
20 there was more than one shift there.
21 Q. If Kolundzija was on duty from 6.00 in the evening of the 24th
22 until 6.00 in the morning of the 25th, and then was off duty for 24 hours,
23 how could he have been the shift leader who behaved in the way that you
24 described in the two, three, four, or longer hours in the middle of the
25 afternoon of the 25th?
1 A. Well, you can use your time off normally only under normal
2 circumstances. If you have a situation which is an emergency situation or
3 an extraordinary situation, then you do not get your 24 hours off.
4 Q. But if the system is right, how could he have been the man who was
5 present when the naked man was called out on the evening of the 25th of
7 A. I don't know whether the system was in a functioning order, in a
8 working order.
9 Q. If the system was in a functioning, working order, how could he
10 have been the shift commander when you were beaten if you were beaten on
11 the 25th of July?
12 A. How could he be the shift commander on the 25th of July? Well,
13 I'm talking about the situation which was not ordinary. I know that he
14 was there in the night of the 24th, that is Friday to Saturday. We were
15 told that it was Kolundzija's shift. And we knew that Kolundzija was
16 coming on in the evening. Whether it was shift -- his shift, whether it
17 was his guards, again, did they want to kill more? I cannot tell you
18 about the second night. Whether there was one shift only there, whether
19 there -- whether it was two shifts strong, whether all three shifts were
20 there, I do not know, and I do not think that you'd paying much attention
21 after that first night, who was there and who was doing what.
22 Q. It's precisely because I wouldn't have been paying attention, and
23 nobody could expect you to be paying attention, that I'm suggesting that
24 it is possible that you are confused in your recollection, Witness N.
25 Can't you see that?
1 A. No, I don't think I'm being confused.
2 Q. Finally, Witness N, have you told us all that you could remember
3 happening in -- at the Room 3 massacre on the 24th of July?
4 A. I believe I did.
5 Q. Did you hear any singing by prisoners in Room 3 prior to the
6 temperature rising?
7 A. Singing? Who could sing?
8 Q. We had evidence of that, but have you any recollection of it?
9 A. That people sang? I don't remember.
10 Q. Did you hear people in the -- in Room 3 shouting for water?
11 A. Yes. That is true. "Give us air. Open the door. Open the
12 windows. Give us water so that we can pour it over those men," yes, yes,
13 that did happen.
14 Q. Did you hear Kolundzija trying to find somebody who could man the
15 water hydrant, shouting for the man who could man the water hydrant; did
16 you hear that?
17 A. This is the first time I hear about that.
18 Q. There is evidence about that. Did you hear Kolundzija shouting to
19 the prisoners to break the glass in the windows?
20 A. Again, the first time I hear it.
21 Q. There is evidence about that. Did you hear Kolundzija shouting to
22 the detainees not to come out but to be quiet?
23 A. Please, I -- how to keep quiet? We were quiet. We were trying to
24 control as much as we could the intake of air. It was over 50 degrees,
25 sir. It's worse than when you go to a sauna or somewhere.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 Q. We have heard evidence of that, Witness N. Did you hear --
2 A. I did not hear that. I did not hear that.
3 Q. Did you hear Kolundzija shouting at the soldiers not to fire?
4 A. No.
5 Q. We've heard evidence of that. Did you see soldiers coming into
6 the camp in considerable numbers?
7 A. Did I see them? No, I did not see any soldiers arrive there, but
8 I know that outside, something out of the ordinary was going on. Whether
9 some people had come in, whether some extra men had turned up, perhaps
10 some others will know that better than I can -- better than I know.
11 Q. We heard evidence about that. Did you see either a machine-gun
12 being put on to a table or did you see a machine-gun that had been put on
13 to a table?
14 A. There was a machine-gun. Now, I don't know if they moved it, but
15 there was a machine-gun. Where they placed it, I do not know. I do not
16 know what went on outside. I'm talking about our struggle to survive
17 inside. And what was going on outside, I know it was something unusual,
18 but whether they had five machine-guns or ten, I do not know. What I do
19 know was that it was a living hell inside. And what weapons they fired
20 from, that is something that I cannot tell you.
21 Q. Well, we heard evidence about that, and I think you told us -
22 correct me if I'm wrong - that you were fairly near to the door; is that
24 A. Yes, but the door was of tin plate. Had it been a glass door,
25 then I would have been able to see everything that went on outside.
1 Q. Did you hear soldiers shouting, "Come out, Turks," or words to
2 that effect, goading the inmates to come out where they could be shot?
3 Did you hear that shouted?
4 A. I did not.
5 Q. And we've heard evidence of that. So if those things happened and
6 you didn't -- you can't remember it, is it because you were unconscious or
8 A. Perhaps because it was the six -- that the bodies in front of me,
9 three or four dead bodies on my back, and who was shouting what outside, I
10 don't know. I was trying to get through that night, to survive. I was
11 fighting for my life. I wasn't listening to what somebody outside might
12 shout. I tried to be in the direction of the door. Any attempt to
13 perhaps stand up might have perhaps cost me my life, and I just couldn't
14 get out of all those dead bodies on me. It was a struggle for life.
15 Q. Witness N, if you weren't unconscious or sleeping, may it be that
16 the horror of it all has driven those activities from your memory? May it
17 be that?
18 A. I never said that I -- that it was like that. I may have lost
19 consciousness between this time and the time when I was taken out, because
20 when my brother helped me get out from under those dead bodies, then he
21 helped me a little bit. When there was a lull in firing, and he did
22 manage to pull me out and drag me to that niche that was there. Whether
23 it was safe, I don't really know. It was safer. The safest thing would
24 have been to dig a hole in the ground.
25 Q. Isn't it possible that your -- the horror of it all has left you
1 with an imperfect recollection of the events? Is that possible?
2 A. I told you what I remember. Perhaps somebody knows something
3 more. Perhaps somebody did hear such words, but I did not. I cannot
4 confirm the words that you just mentioned.
5 Q. Did you say that you couldn't be more than 80 per cent sure of the
6 identification of Mr. Kolundzija?
7 A. Yes. After so much time, a person can change. I don't know.
8 They can be -- they can put on weight, they can lose weight, they can
9 change the colour of hair, have it red or blonde, but the face probably is
10 still in my memory.
11 Q. Why didn't you say you could be a hundred per cent sure?
12 A. Do you know when I gave the statement?
13 Q. Yes, 16th of September 2000.
14 A. How much time is that? And would you be able to say -- I just
15 said how -- I mentioned the degree to which I would be able to recognise
16 him. It's a long time.
17 Q. There's an element of uncertainty, 20 per cent uncertainty.
18 A. I left that open.
19 Q. But that's what it was, wasn't it, an element of uncertainty,
20 Witness N?
21 A. I said that I left 20 per cent open. It could be -- there could
22 have been a change. Everybody changes. It depends.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.
24 Mr. Ryneveld.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm electing not to indulge in any further
1 re-examination, but I think that it would be appropriate - I think my
2 friend would agree - that the extensive cross-examination of the single
3 statement that Your Honours have before you ought to be marked as an
4 exhibit --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 MR. RYNEVELD: -- just to put everything in context.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It should be marked as an exhibit, yes.
8 Would you have a number for that?
9 MR. LAWRENCE: I'd be happy if that was marked "Kole number 1."
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. We have a system here. So it would follow
11 chronologically from the last exhibit number.
12 If you don't have it now, Madam Registrar, you can give it to us
14 Witness N, that concludes your testimony, and you are released.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: While the witness is being escorted from the room
17 and the blinds go down, I wonder if I could address the Court with respect
18 to my concern, before we call the next witness, over the time that remains
19 and the speed with which we appear to be progressing. Would you entertain
20 my making some comments at this time?
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we might find a more appropriate time
22 later so that we can continue with the evidence. And we'll have the time
23 to look at those matters, which I can assure you are in the Court's
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I just thought I ought to alert you to
1 the fact that we are concerned and we wish to address the Court at some
2 convenient time.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you Mr. Ryneveld.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Might I be excused for a moment, please?
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, the next witness.
8 MS. BALY: Your Honours, the next witness is a witness for whom an
9 order was made granting this witness permission to testify in closed
10 session. The order was made by the Trial Chamber on the 22nd of December
11 last year.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that being so, we'll have closed session,
14 [Closed session]
13 Pages 3017-3090 redacted closed session.
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please sit.
2 WITNESS: WITNESS P
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
7 Q. Witness, just so you are aware, the Court has granted protective
8 measures, and I will be referring to you, as will the balance of the
9 members of the Court and counsel, as Witness P in these proceedings. Do
10 you understand that, sir?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Sir, I understand that you were born and raised in Trnopolje; is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. And do I also understand, sir, that on the 14th of June, 1992, you
16 were living with your family in the Trnopolje area when at some point in
17 time you were arrested that day; is that correct?
18 A. That is right.
19 Q. And, sir, were you at that time part of any military operation or
20 were you a soldier or were you a civilian at the time?
21 A. Civilian.
22 Q. And were any other members of your family or any -- were any other
23 members of your family arrested with you at the time?
24 A. The whole family, brothers, and all the other relatives.
25 Q. And where were you when this occurred?
1 A. In front of my house.
2 Q. And the village of Sivci, is that near Trnopolje or is it a suburb
3 of Trnopolje or is it -- where is it in relation to Trnopolje?
4 A. It is a -- Trnopolje, it is, Trnopolje, a neighbourhood community,
5 but the then camp, it is about a kilometre and a hundred metres away.
6 Q. All right, sir. Now, I'd like you to turn your mind to the events
7 of the 14th of June, 1992, and can you tell me or can you tell the Court
8 what had happened that day in the Trnopolje area that led up to your
10 A. May I start now?
11 Q. Yes, please.
12 A. That day I was in front of my house. My whole family were there,
13 my mother, and father, and everybody else. It was sometime in the
14 morning, because there was some unrest, but I don't really know what. And
15 from the direction of Trnopolje, shall I call them the army, the so-called
16 army of Republika Srpska, set off from there and they covered the whole
17 area from the road, from Trnopolje to the left, to Petrov Gaj. They
18 covered this whole area and moved in that direction; that is, in the
19 direction of Kozarac. And as they moved, as they progressed, they rounded
20 up all the adult men.
21 So they reached my house, and they picked me and my two brothers
22 and everybody else up and then took us to a house in our village. And we
23 were all put there, all the adult men. And we sat there in front of Munib
24 Cemal's house, and from the direction of Kararici, men had been brought
25 also in a lorry and on foot.
1 And we sat there as those troops walked around looking for people,
2 and then they were showing some map, they were looking around some maps,
3 we could see it well, the neighbourhood community of Trnopolje and
4 Kozarac, and we could overhear him saying, "Where is who? Front lines
5 being established?" Or some reference points, as they called them.
6 And I heard and saw one who was called Cigo from Omarska, that is
7 what a neighbour of mine said, who knew him very well. He had his
8 Motorola, and he had all those maps with him and then they ordered us to
9 start towards the village, towards Kozarac. So that was that roughly,
10 that area.
11 Q. If I can just stop you there, just a couple of quick questions,
12 sir. How many men -- when you said that they rounded up the adult men,
13 how many would you say in total were rounded up while -- in your
15 A. Well, we were over a hundred.
16 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of the men that were being rounded up?
17 A. All were of Muslim ethnicity or Bosniak Muslim ethnicity.
18 Q. And, sir, were the people who were being rounded up, were any of
19 them in military clothing or in civilian clothing?
20 A. They were all in civilian clothing and taken from their homes.
21 Q. All right, sir. Now, you told us that once this group was rounded
22 up and you saw this individual Cigo giving -- doing what he was doing, you
23 were taken towards Sivci? Did I hear you say that correctly or did I
24 mistake that?
25 A. Yes, yes, you understood it very well.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 Q. And how did you get there? Were you on foot or in a vehicle or
2 how did you get to Sivci?
3 A. We walked.
4 Q. What if anything did you see en route?
5 A. We fetched up in front of Hamid Sivac's house and stopped there.
6 And from the upper part of the village, a large number of civilians were
7 coming down. They had their noses broken, teeth broken, with blood on
8 their faces and all over.
9 Q. In the process, while you were -- when you saw that, was it
10 obvious to you that they were looking for anyone in particular; i.e., the
11 Army of the Republika Srpska representatives, were they looking for
12 someone in particular?
13 A. Well, they were rounding up all civilians, but specifically they
14 were looking for a Muslim nicknamed Maci.
15 Q. And were questions being asked of the people who were being
16 rounded up as to his whereabouts?
17 A. Questions were asked and conditions were put, that is some
19 Q. What kind of threats?
20 A. Well, one of the soldiers wearing a flak jacket, and he sat in the
21 middle of the courtyard in a chair, and demanded that we tell them where
22 Maci is or else he'd -- they'd kill all civilians, including women and
23 children, and us adults, of course.
24 Q. Now, sir, eventually, I understand, that the group of you were
25 loaded on buses and taken in the direction of Trnopolje; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were you in fact taken to Trnopolje or did you go somewhere else?
3 A. Well, we went past Trnopolje towards Prijedor.
4 Q. And what was at Prijedor?
5 A. And they brought us -- I didn't know that that is, what it was
6 called, but that is where they brought us to, Keraterm. I knew there were
7 some halls of sorts, but I didn't know it was called Keraterm.
8 Q. Now, what happened when you got to this place that you later found
9 out to be called Keraterm?
10 A. Well, when we came out, some soldiers ordered, "Faster, quicker,
11 this komandir this, and those komandir that," and then as we were coming
12 off, they were taking all our purses, wallets, watches, beating. They did
13 all sorts of things, but mostly beating.
14 Q. Who was doing the beating?
15 A. Well, it was Serb troops who beat. They all had military uniforms
17 Q. And where at Keraterm did this beating take place? In other
18 words, when the buses arrived, was it immediately upon disembarking from
19 the bus or was it later on, once you got to Keraterm?
20 A. It is after we got off the bus and they just beat everybody they
21 could lay their hands on.
22 Q. Did you recognise any of the people who were involved in the
23 beating upon your arrival?
24 A. Dragan Cavic and Zoran Zigic.
25 Q. Did you know Zoran Zigic before this incident?
1 A. I did know him as a taxi driver in Prijedor, and I also knew him
2 in passing but not as a friend or acquaintance. We did not have any
3 friendship or anything. But Dragan Cavic I did know because he was from
4 my local commune.
5 Q. Tell me, sir, where in relation to the camp did these beatings
6 take place? Describe the area where the buses stopped?
7 A. The buses came to a stop in front of Rooms 1 and 2, or in the area
8 near the weigh hut. There was a widening there so that the buses could
9 turn in that area.
10 Q. And just so that I'm clear, did this happen during daylight hours
11 or was it dark?
12 A. It was daytime.
13 Q. Do you have an approximate time of day when you would have arrived
14 there or do you know?
15 A. It was around 3.00 or 4.00. It was -- couldn't be -- couldn't
16 have been more than 4.00.
17 Q. And I take it -- of course, this is obvious, but we are talking
18 about 3.00 or 4.00 on the afternoon of the 14th of June, 1992?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, after the beatings and the valuables were taken, were you
21 placed somewhere?
22 A. They first put us in those Rooms 1 and 2, but then they ordered us
23 to go to Room 3.
24 Q. And do you remember who locked you up that night?
25 A. That night we were locked up by Cupo, that is the nickname that we
1 had for him.
2 Q. Is this a nickname that you had for him after some period of time
3 or did you already know him on the 14th of June when he locked you up?
4 A. That time when he locked us up, but it was later that we learned
5 that his name was Banovic.
6 Q. All right. And at the time of locking you up, did he ask any
7 questions of the group?
8 A. He asked us whether anybody was bothering us and we said that
9 nobody was bothering us, and then he cursed all our mothers, and he said,
10 "You'll see how Serbs are beating." He threatened us then. He said we
11 would remember how Serbs beat.
12 Q. And did you later that night indeed find out what he was talking
14 A. Many had been already taken out and beaten, so that we got a sense
15 of what he was referring to.
16 Q. Can you tell us what happened?
17 A. Many people were brought out and beaten. There were a lot of
19 Q. Now, just so that I'm clear, you've told us there were about a
20 hundred people in the group that were rounded up, and you were taken to
21 Keraterm. Were you put in Room 3 as a group or were you dispersed among
22 various rooms or -- I'll stop my sentence there and ask another one
24 A. A part of us was in Room 3 and some remained in Room 2, but most
25 of us who arrived on that day were together in Room 3.
1 Q. At the time you went in Room 3, were you joining other prisoners
2 who were already there or was the room empty?
3 A. That room was empty. And we arrived in Room 2. We joined those
4 who were there already. But then they came in and they said all those who
5 arrived today should come out and move to Room 3.
6 Q. So generally speaking, is it safe to say then that the people who
7 were in Room 3 were new arrivals?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What happened to the new arrivals that night, if anything?
10 A. They were pretty severely beaten. Some were beaten up very badly,
11 so that the next day we were not really able to come out. The new
12 arrivals were punished in that way, by not being able to come out.
13 Q. Sir -- oh, I see. You weren't able to come out because you were
14 prohibited from coming out or you were not able to come out because of
15 injuries? Maybe you should clarify that for us.
16 A. It was prohibited.
17 Q. I see. Sir, you were among the new arrivals in Room 3. Were you
18 personally taken out and beaten?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know why?
21 A. Probably because nobody knew me there and they had no reason to
22 take me out, because it was mostly those who were on certain lists, and
23 these lists were made on the basis of some personal vendettas.
24 Q. The first night you arrived, sir, was there an apparent order to
25 the way people were taken out and beaten?
1 A. It wasn't by any order. They would just open the door and grab a
2 couple of people near the door and that is how it would go, usually at
4 Q. And how long did they keep that up that evening?
5 A. Almost until the morning.
6 Q. Did they get to everybody other than yourself?
7 A. They did not manage to get to all of us. Fortunately for me, they
8 didn't come to me.
9 Q. All right. And we've been talking about "they." Who were the
10 people that were doing the beating, sir? Do you know any of them or did
11 you know any of them or do you now know who any of those people were?
12 A. At that time I did not know them, but during my stay in the camp,
13 I learned and I got to know these people.
14 Q. And are you able to share any of those names with us at this
16 A. Those who beat the most included the Banovic brothers, Zigic and
17 Duca, who all came with their men, and the Banovic brothers were camp
19 Q. I see. Sir, I'd like to take you now to what I understand is the
20 following day. Now, if I've got my math right, this would now be the
21 morning of the 15th of June.
22 At some point in time that day were you interrogated or was that
23 at a later time?
24 A. And the 15th of June, they were making a list of our names, trying
25 to see what the -- how many we were, what count there was.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 Q. And how do you know that this list was being made? Were you
3 A. One of these inmates came and he stood at the door, and then he --
4 as people were coming over, he would list them and put numerals next to
5 the names.
6 Q. Just so that I'm clear about your evidence, I think you used the
7 word "one of the inmates." Are you talking about one of the prisoners of
8 the room did that or was it one of the soldiers or one of the guards? Or
9 maybe you could clarify it, because I'm not sure what you're saying.
10 A. One inmate - he was from Prijedor - had a soldier standing next to
11 him. I think -- I don't know why he was writing it. Perhaps he had
12 better handwriting.
13 Q. Was the soldier with him as this list was being created?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And it was the inmate who was writing down the names of the
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was he asking the people what their names were or did he know them
20 A. He asked each individual one what his name was.
21 Q. Now, once this list was created, what, if anything, was done with
22 this list, or are you able to say what happened to you and your fellow
24 A. He gave the list to the soldier and then they started calling out
25 names for people to be interrogated from that list.
1 Q. Were you one of the first people to be interrogated from that
2 list, sir?
3 A. Yes. I was among the first to be interrogated.
4 Q. And what happened to you, where did you go, who interrogated, and
5 what were you asked?
6 A. I went to the upper floor above Room 1, and I was interrogated by
7 a man called Modic, who before the war used to be an instructor in the
8 driving school. Then he asked me where I was and to what unit I belonged,
9 whether I had a criminal record, things like that.
10 Q. Did he appear to have the same list that was created or any other
11 list with him at the time of your interrogation?
12 A. I don't know what list he had, but I saw that while he was
13 interrogating me that he had some other lists which he was reading from
14 while he was interrogating me. I saw some names on it. He may have been
15 checking whether my name was on one of those lists.
16 Q. Were you able to see the names of any other prisoners on any other
17 lists as you were being interrogated?
18 A. No. No, I do not. We weren't that close to one another so that I
19 could have seen it.
20 Q. In any event, sir, were you beaten or mistreated in any way during
21 that interrogation?
22 A. No, I was not beaten.
23 Q. Moving on if I can, sir, I understand you've earlier mentioned
24 very briefly a man called Duca, I believe. Did you know now whether that
25 man had another name or had a second name, surname?
1 A. Dusan Knezevic. We learned that in the camp.
2 Q. How is it that you came to know his name in the camp?
3 A. The majority of the inmates were from the Prijedor municipality,
4 so some people knew certain names, others knew others, so that during our
5 stay in Keraterm, the names of all involved were known. And then
6 afterwards, we communicated among ourselves so that everybody learned the
7 names of those who were at Keraterm.
8 Q. I'm sorry, I asked the question badly, sir. I should focus why I
9 asked that question. I take it that there was a reason, something
10 happened at the camp that would cause his name to come up for discussion
11 among the inmates; is that right?
12 A. Yes. The reason was that he frequently came to beat up inmates,
13 so we had a very solid reason to learn his name.
14 Q. Can you give us an example of one of those beatings?
15 A. On one occasion -- in fact he came frequently, but once he came to
16 Room 3 and he started beating people one by one. And then at one point,
17 he asked that all people who had any kind of weapons stand up, and people
18 who used to have hunting weapons got up. Then he picked three and he beat
19 them up. And that is when we really remembered him quite well.
20 Q. Do you happen to remember the names of the three people that were
21 selected for beating?
22 A. Amir Kararic, Josip Pavlic, and Dijaz Sivac.
23 Q. Now, this Amir Kararic, was he an older man or a younger man?
24 A. Amir Kararic was the younger one, and Hasim Kararic was his
25 father, and when he came over to help him, he was hit twice by Duca.
1 Q. Just so that I'm clear, who was hit twice by Duca, the son or the
3 A. Duca called out the father -- I apologise, the son, but then the
4 father said, "Don't do anything to him. He didn't do anything. He's my
5 son." And then Duca hit him twice with a fist and then came back and took
6 out his son.
7 Q. So as I understand your evidence, the father intervened, and as a
8 result of his intervention, Duca hit the father twice and then still took
9 the son out. Is that what you're telling us?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I see. And when the son was taken out along with the other two,
12 what happened?
13 A. Duca took them out and beat them up there, and we could hear
14 screams and moans, and at one point he even said, "Let's cut their
15 throats." I don't know what happened but the reason prevailed so even
16 though they were badly beaten, they were let -- allowed to go back.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, when you're finished with this
18 topic, we will take a ten-minute break.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I'll just finish paragraph 10, if I
21 Q. Sir, very quickly, you said they returned. What shape were they
22 in when they came back in the room?
23 A. They managed to get to the door and immediately fell down. They
24 were beaten up so we couldn't see their eyes or anything.
25 Q. Sir, did you at that time or at a later time hear why it is that,
1 as you put it, reason prevailed and they were allowed in? Do you know why
2 that happened?
3 A. I don't know what prevailed, but I believe that the inmates had
4 some great luck. I don't know what -- what it was that it stopped, that
5 they survived, after all the screams and moans.
6 Q. Did you hear from some source as to why the beating stopped?
7 A. I don't -- I did not hear why.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't think my friends will object.
9 Q. Sir, did you hear anything about Kajin coming along at any point?
10 A. No, I did not hear that Kajin came along but Amir Kararic assumed
11 that Kajin had arrived. He said that Kajin came along while he was
12 looking for a knife to cut their throats, and then Kajin said, "Leave
13 those men alone." And that is why reason prevailed. So that they would
14 not be killed and their throats cut. But I did not hear him coming along,
15 and I did not hear him say these things.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, sir. Perhaps, Your Honour, this would
17 be a good time for the break.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Witness P, we are now going to take a short
19 break of ten minutes. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your
20 evidence with anybody, including the members of the Prosecution team. We
21 will resume at eight minutes after 4.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 3.58 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Now, Witness, just before the break, we had dealt with incidents
2 involving Duca. Was there another incident sometime in July of 1992
3 involving the son of the pastry-shop owner from the Prijedor bus station?
4 Do you know who that was?
5 A. It was Jasmin, and his sweet shop was called Zvijezdas. He was
6 the son of the sweet-shop's owner.
7 Q. Do you know what room he was in?
8 A. Room number 4.
9 Q. Do you know what happened to him?
10 A. Jasmin was beaten up and he succumbed to the injuries.
11 Q. Do you know who beat him up?
12 A. Banovic brothers.
13 Q. And you may have said this. You said he succumbed to his
14 injuries. How do you know that, and did you see any evidence of that?
15 A. Well, since a friend of mine was in Room 4, that is Halim, and I
16 would go to visit him. In daytime one runs over to see people, and I saw
17 Jasmin in that hall sitting, all beaten up, and a day or two later he
18 succumbed to those injuries. The injuries were quite evident.
19 Q. Did you see his body?
20 A. Yes, I did. I personally saw his body, and I loaded that body
21 into a coffin.
22 Q. How did that happen?
23 A. Well, it was like this: It was sometime around noon and a hearse
24 came through the gate, a black one, and Cupo set off towards the garbage
25 dump where Jasmin's body lay. [redacted]
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
5 [redacted]. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The registrar will see to that.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
8 Q. After these people were selected by Cupo, what happened?
9 A. We went up there, took out the coffin from the hearse, took off
10 the lid, and put Jasmin in the coffin. And that moment, Cupo said
11 literally - if you excuse me for my language - "Look at him. Fuck his
12 mother. The coffin seems to be made to his measure."
13 Q. Yes. Did he ask you any questions?
14 A. Then he asked us if we knew him, and we said that we didn't, that
15 we didn't know him at all.
16 Q. Was that true?
17 A. Well, no, it wasn't.
18 Q. Why did you lie?
19 A. Well, because there had already been those things. If you said
20 you knew somebody, then they'd take you along, so that we already feared.
21 We had already had this experience, and that's why we said we didn't know
22 him, because it was best at the time not to know anyone.
23 Q. Sir, I don't want to spend a lot of time on the next area, but did
24 you know someone called Emsud Bahonjic and/or Drago Tokmadzic?
25 A. Emsud Bahonjic I -- I did know from before the war, and Drago
1 Tokmadzic I saw in the camp, and that was where I met him, as a policeman
2 who had been brought to Keraterm.
3 Q. With respect to both of these people, did you -- did you know
4 whether they survived their stay at the camp?
5 A. No, none of them. Both of them were killed and their bodies were
6 seen in the Keraterm camp.
7 Q. Did you see any bodies other than Dragan Tokmadzic and Emsud
8 Bahonjic at the camp while you were there? And of course you've just told
9 us about Ibrahimi, Jasmin Ibrahimi.
10 A. Emsud. There were other bodies which were in the -- on the
11 garbage dump, but I didn't know those men. I didn't recognise them.
12 Q. So the bodies of Emsud, Drago and others you actually saw on the
13 rubbish dump, did you?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And -- all right. Now, sir, moving on, while at the camp, sir,
16 did you find out whether there was an organisational structure?
17 A. Well, yes.
18 Q. Can you tell us your understanding of the structure?
19 A. Well, to begin with, there were shifts, which changed every 12
20 hours, and there were those structures -- interrogation structures were
21 organised and they took place in -- during working hours.
22 Q. Do you know who the commander of the camp was?
23 A. Sikirica. He was the camp commander.
24 Q. You've told us there were shifts. Do you know how many there
1 A. Three shifts.
2 Q. Did those shifts have commanders?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know who they were?
5 A. There was Kole and then Kajin and Fustar. Those were the names
6 that we -- those were the names that we used to refer to them and how we
7 knew them.
8 Q. You've referred in your evidence to the Banovic brothers a number
9 of times. Do you know whether they were on a particular shift, or were
10 they on a shift, or what can you tell us about that?
11 A. They were members of the shift commanded by Kajin.
12 Q. Moments ago, sir, you indicated that you thought that Sikirica was
13 the camp commander. Did you know him before the war by name?
14 A. No. I didn't know him by name, but I knew him by sight, in
15 passing, around the town, but I knew his face. I knew what he looked like
16 when I saw him in the camp.
17 Q. Do you know what kind of a vehicle he drove?
18 A. It was an Opel vehicle, a blue Ascona, and he drove it to the
20 Q. Sir, I just want to back up for one moment. I forgot to ask you a
21 question. When we were talking about the bodies that you saw on the
22 rubbish dump and you've told us the names of three or four of them, did
23 you see how those bodies were removed from the camp?
24 A. Those bodies were taken away in that hearse.
25 Q. And I think you said that a hearse was a black hearse; is that
2 A. It is, yes, yes.
3 Q. Did it have any writing or anything on it or was there any
4 identification mark on it as to where it came from or what it was?
5 A. It said -- no, it didn't say anything, but we know a hearse is a
6 long, black vehicle and has a kind of a white band on dark glass. The
7 window panes are dark and there is a white band on them.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. Sorry for backtracking. I want to get back to
9 the organisational structure. You've told us about Sikirica who you saw
10 before the -- your internment at Keraterm. You've mentioned someone by
11 the name of Kole. Who is that?
12 A. Why, that was a manager -- I mean, a commander of a shift,
13 commander of one of the shifts.
14 Q. Had you seen him before the war?
15 A. Well, same thing. I would see him around Prijedor in passing by.
16 I didn't know him personally.
17 Q. You mentioned someone by the name of Kajin. Who is that?
18 A. Kajin was another shift commander.
19 Q. And had you known him before the war?
20 A. Him I did know before the war.
21 Q. How long?
22 A. Well, a few years, five or six years perhaps, perhaps even longer,
24 Q. How did you know the positions that these people held in the
25 camp? How did that -- how did you arrive at that conclusion? Is that
1 something you were told or something you concluded from what you saw or a
2 combination of both? Tell us.
3 A. By and large, we drew our own conclusions. One could see when the
4 shifts would change at 6.00 because they changed, they went from 6.00 to
5 6.00, so when they would come, we could see who would assign people
6 where. We could see them there. And we began to make our guesses and
7 eventually learned. In the beginning, we made guesses and then we
8 ascertained who was a commander and who was a guard.
9 Q. Sir, could you describe what Kajin looked like in 1992?
10 A. He was fair-haired, on the thin side, rather tall.
11 Q. About how old?
12 A. Well, I'm not sure I'll get it right, but I'd say around 30, 28,
13 30. That's how old he could have been in 1992.
14 Q. Do you feel, sir, that having known him for five or six years
15 before the war -- well, no. Let me ask a couple of other questions. You
16 were there from the 14th of June until when? When did you leave
18 A. On the 5th of August.
19 Q. So you were there the entire month of July and about half of June
20 and the first week of August; is that correct? So that's about a month
21 and three weeks, roughly speaking?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. During that period of time, would you have had a number of
24 opportunities to see this person Kajin?
25 A. Well, on a number of occasions, not several times. Quite often.
1 Q. All right. Perhaps you could give us an idea then. Over that
2 nearly two-month period of time, how often would you estimate that you had
3 an opportunity of seeing Kajin?
4 A. Well, I can't be all that accurate, but I'd say quite a number of
5 times. Now, the exact number, I don't know. Should I offer -- a number
6 of occasions but on quite a number of occasions.
7 Q. And on some of those occasions, sir, did you see him close up and
8 in fact even engage in conversation with him? In other words, at this
9 point I don't want to know what the conversation was, but have you had
10 close dealings with him during any of those occasions while you were at
11 the camp?
12 A. Yes, once, and we even greeted one another.
13 Q. All right. Do you feel, sir, that you would be able to recognise
14 this individual that you've referred to as Kajin if you were to see him
16 A. Oh, yes.
17 Q. I would ask you to look around the courtroom today, and if he is
18 here today, could you indicate where he is?
19 A. Over there in that direction.
20 Q. You're now pointing in the direction of the wall above the windows
21 to your left, to the Court's right. In terms of counting -- there are six
22 chairs there. In terms of from left to right counting chairs, could you
23 indicate what number chair the individual you know as Kajin is sitting in,
24 including all of the people starting from left to right?
25 A. He's the third from the right.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 Q. Third from the right. And if we were to go from the left, what
2 chair would it be?
3 A. And fourth from the left.
4 Q. Thank you very much.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the record show that the witness indicates
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
9 Q. Sir, dealing with Kole, how often would you say that you had an
10 opportunity to see Kole?
11 MR. LAWRENCE: If it is of any assistance to the Court, there is
12 no dispute that Kole is the defendant Kolundzija.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
15 Q. How often would you have seen Mr. Sikirica?
16 A. We could also see him quite frequently.
17 Q. And do you feel that you would recognise that individual you
18 referred to as Sikirica if you were to see him again?
19 A. I am not sure that I would have recognised him.
20 Q. How did he look in 1992?
21 A. In comparison to now, he was thinner, dark, and he had his hair
22 parted to the side. They were all wearing uniforms at the time, but now
23 it's a bit changed.
24 Q. When you say "in comparison to now," and "now he's a bit changed,"
25 to whom are you referring to that you're making that comparison?
1 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, the witness said "it's a bit changed,"
2 not "he's a bit changed," according to the transcript and what I heard on
3 the --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Then I stand corrected, but my question remains the
7 Q. When you refer to -- I'm going -- "in comparison to now" and "it's
8 a bit changed," what were you comparing his appearance then to? Who or
9 what are you now comparing that to?
10 A. Perhaps I made a mistake, but he did change, and I would not be
11 sure to say who he is here. I did not -- what I meant was that I had not
12 seen him until now. I don't know who to compare him and who to compare
13 him to now.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't believe you can go ahead with that.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Not with that answer, no. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 MR. RYNEVELD:
18 Q. Now, sir, you've told us earlier that the Banovics were on Kajin's
19 shift; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And during your stay at Keraterm, did you see or hear of any
22 incidents where prisoners were called out by the Banovics?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do you know whether or not they were on a particular shift at
25 the time that they were calling people out?
1 A. Well, yes.
2 Q. And I'll ask the obvious: Whose shift were they on when people
3 were being called out?
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. First of all, it is not
7 clear to what incident the reference is made. The witness is confused.
8 And second, I don't see how this conclusion can be drawn from such a
10 Before this Honourable Court, we have heard several different
11 conclusions about the Banovics. First of all, I cannot see what incident
12 or event he is -- is being referred to, and this is asking the --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Ryneveld, when you ask whose shift were
14 they on when people were being called out, you need to be more specific.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I'm sorry. I assume that because the
16 witness, at paragraph 8, has already given evidence about a specific
17 incident that I didn't need to, but I stand -- I'll take the time and I'll
18 do that.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: In any event, I had said that we would stop
20 taking the evidence at twenty-five minutes to.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: I think we've reached that point.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. So we'll have to continue that tomorrow
24 MR. RYNEVELD: All right. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness P, we are going to adjourn shortly, but
1 you will be in a position to leave the courtroom now. During the
2 adjournment you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody, and that
3 includes members of the Prosecution team. You will return tomorrow
4 morning at 9.30.
5 Please escort the witness out.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will now take up the question of our schedule
8 and the timetable. This question was adverted to by Mr. Ryneveld this
9 morning. It's an exceedingly important question, bearing in mind that
10 some seven working days would have been lost to the Prosecution in the
11 presentation of their case, which was scheduled to end on Friday, the 1st
12 of June. Mr. Ryneveld, do you have any particular submissions to make?
13 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. With respect, I agree that seven
14 working days was lost to us most recently, but there were a previous
15 number of days that were lost to us due to another development just prior
16 to Sir Ivan rejoining us as counsel. There is a larger period of time.
17 Nevertheless, we have done our utmost in order to reduce the number of
18 witnesses in order to try to get as close to June 1st as possible, and by
19 my calculation, before the witness -- before this witness, the
20 closed-session witness, was called, there were a potential 22 witnesses.
21 We have decided that three of those we are going to not call. But in any
22 event, we are still left with about 18 or 17 witnesses, and we are simply
23 unable, at the pace that we are going, to complete the Prosecution's case
24 in the time remaining between now and the 1st of June.
25 I don't know what the solution would be other than to ask the
1 Court for consideration to give the Prosecution some additional time to
2 replace the time that we have lost, through no one's fault, but the fact
3 remains we originally had a sufficient period of time but circumstances,
4 which none of us had any control over, have altered that period of time
5 within which we could call our case. Now, we have done, we would submit,
6 our utmost in trying to meet our objective. Unfortunately, at the pace we
7 are now going, I cannot see us accomplishing that without running the risk
8 of seriously damaging our case. And we are asking the Court to consider
9 giving us an additional week after the break to finish our case. And if
10 we can do it sooner than that, we certainly will.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Including this witness, you have 14 who are
12 certain to be called?
13 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry, I have another --
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Three for cross-examination only, having decided
15 not to call three?
16 MR. RYNEVELD: That is correct, yes.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we are left with 14 including this witness,
18 plus three for cross-examination only?
19 MR. RYNEVELD: That is correct.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld? Yes, okay. Please go ahead. Let
22 me hear.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps I should, as part of my submission,
24 indicate that because time is short, and in the event the Court is
25 disposed to grant our application, or part of it or whatever, my concern
1 is that counsel, all counsel, can still utilise the two weeks that is
2 presently scheduled for the break to accomplish the kinds of things that
3 we would otherwise have done if we had finished on the 1st of June, not to
4 its entirety, but obviously we would like to have a copy of the Defence
5 list of witnesses as soon as possible so that we can utilise our time in
6 order to start preparing so that we don't have to ask for a big break in
7 order to get ready for their Defence witnesses. In other words, if we all
8 try to live into the spirit of getting this done, then I believe that we
9 don't necessarily have to lose time, if the Court is disposed to grant us
10 some additional time in order to put in our case.
11 JUDGE MAY: You've got plans, have you, for that break?
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Personally?
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, you and the Prosecution generally. I mean,
14 you've made arrangements, have you?
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I haven't made arrangements personally, Your
16 Honour, but I have two very capable counsel who could, if the court were
17 to sit, continue with the evidence, and --
18 JUDGE MAY: It's a question of whether we should stick to the
19 original arrangement.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps I'm not following.
21 JUDGE MAY: I think we will hear from the Defence.
22 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, thank you.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: There are two questions I'd like to raise with
24 the Defence. One is the plans, if any, that they had for the break. And
25 secondly, if they can intimate whether, at the end of the Prosecution's
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 case, any submissions would be made under Rule 98 bis? Mr. Greaves?
2 MR. GREAVES: The answer to the first question is yes. We have
3 always anticipated using the break to enable both counsel to be in
4 Prijedor and conducting witness interviews and so forth, and as it were
5 dotting the I's and crossing the T's of the Defence case.
6 As to the second question, we have taken no final decision in
7 respect of that, but it is perfectly possible that in respect of count 1,
8 there might well be such a submission. That depends on the totality of
9 the evidence, of course.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, thank you. Mr. Petrovic?
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, very briefly,
12 regarding the first point, we indeed did -- had plans to complete our
13 work, our investigative work, for our case and we were planning on
14 travelling to Prijedor and Banja Luka. And as far as the second point is
15 concerned, we are negotiating and we have not reached a final position,
16 but I believe that we will be able to appear here with a final settlement
17 on that issue. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Sir Ivan?
19 MR. LAWRENCE: Of course, the Defence as far as Kolundzija is
20 concerned, I'm sure it's so with both of my co-accused, will do all we can
21 to cooperate to speed matters for the Prosecution. But there must be no
22 unfair pressure put upon the Defence. I'm sure the court would agree.
23 The two weeks in June have been specifically set aside so that the Defence
24 can be prepared. And it simply isn't going to be possible for our Defence
25 to be prepared with I don't know how many witnesses. Hopefully, many
1 fewer than the 35 that were originally suggested. It may be that some of
2 our witnesses will stretch across more than one defendant, for example.
3 JUDGE MAY: You've made plans for that two weeks?
4 MR. LAWRENCE: I have personal plans for the first week, which His
5 Honour Judge May may well understand, and my team has plans for both the
6 weeks. And I'm most anxious that no more pressure should be put on the
7 Defence in preparing its defence than that. I have no objection to the
8 Prosecution having more time if the court thought it was appropriate.
9 There may well be a submission of no case or its equivalent in this
10 jurisdiction, as far as Kolundzija is concerned, though I haven't taken a
11 final view about that. Of course, if that submission were to take a
12 certain course, it would very substantially shorten the trial. So what I
13 think I'm saying is that I think we need not get ourselves in too deep a
14 state of depression at this stage about whether or not a reasonable time
15 will be found for the ending of this case. There are a number of
16 imponderables, but the one thing that I am certain about is that we must
17 keep those two weeks for the Defence, as we were promised, and every
18 effort will be made to shorten the proceedings, or at any rate not
19 lengthen the proceedings. I mean I can see a number of witnesses that are
20 going to be called with whom, if I have five minutes of cross-examination,
21 that will surprise me. Speaking only for Kolundzija, the worst witnesses,
22 I think, have already given evidence.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber has considered this matter, and the
1 determination that we have made is that the Prosecution should have an
2 additional seven days, which would mean that their case would be concluded
3 on Tuesday, the 26th of June. Seven working days. Tuesday, the 26th of
5 The Chamber does not anticipate any break between the close of the
6 Prosecution's case and the opening of the Defence case.
7 The two-week break in June should be utilised by the Defence to
8 prepare their case and also to consider the question of submissions under
9 Rule 98 bis.
10 Mr. Greaves, I see you're looking to the Rules. No?
11 MR. GREAVES: I was just going to refresh my memory of what it
12 actually says. No discourtesy intended by ostentatiously --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
14 MR. GREAVES: -- hope you think --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, in any event, for us to conclude the case in
16 the time scheduled, and the last working day will be Friday, October 19th,
17 which gives us 61 days from June the 18th when we return from the break,
18 it will require cooperation from all counsel, in particular in relation to
19 cross-examination. Cross-examination must be confined only to matters
20 that are relevant, and the Court intends to exercise some rigour and
21 discipline in that regard.
22 So that is the ruling of the Chamber on this particular matter.
23 We adjourn now until 9.30 tomorrow morning.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.55 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Friday, the 18th day
1 of May, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.