1 Friday, 18 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld?

7 WITNESS: WITNESS P [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld: [Continued]

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, witness, last day we had been talking about the camp

12 structure, and during the course of that, you indicated that you believed

13 that the camp commander was a man called Sikirica; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'm going to ask you now, sir, do you know or did you then know an

16 inmate by the name of Budimlic?

17 A. I did, yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us what you can recall about an incident that may

19 have occurred in relation to that inmate at this time.

20 A. That inmate was from Trnopolje. He arrived with us there on the

21 14th of June and he was slightly sick, he was nervy. And one evening,

22 sometime towards the change of the shifts around 6.00, he must have been

23 -- he must have lost his bearings and wandered off in the camp, and the

24 guards I guess saw him and allegedly accused him of trying to escape.

25 Q. And what did they do when they -- I think you said they saw him

1 and accused him of trying to escape?

2 A. They then took him over there to the gate where that weigh bridge

3 was and a hut of sorts, and in a group with many soldiers, they beat him.

4 Q. Who beat him?

5 A. Well, two shifts had got together right at that time, and men from

6 both those shifts beat him, and commander Sikirica also hit him twice with

7 his -- with his hand.

8 Q. When you say commander Sikirica beat him or hit him with his

9 hands, where were you and how did you see that?

10 A. Other inmates and I were in front of hall 3.

11 Q. How far away were you to be able to distinguish who was beating

12 whom?

13 A. Well, some 30 metres or so. One could see 12 because we were in

14 front of the hall and those paths there, and we had spread a little so

15 that one could see very well.

16 Q. Now, after the beating incident, did you see what happened to the

17 prisoner, Mr. Budimlic?

18 A. And then they brought this inmate in front of the hall. Sikirica

19 personally came with him and said, "If any one of you tries to escape,

20 you'll fare worse than this one," and so far he's never hit anyone until

21 that inmate because this inmate had tried to escape, and anyone who tried

22 to escape would fare the same way or perhaps even worse.

23 Q. The comments you have just made to us, is that all a supposed

24 quote by Sikirica, or is that partly your own -- have you added some

25 comment of your own to that, or is that what Sikirica said?

1 A. Sikirica literally said that he had never hit anyone but this

2 inmate, and this was his comment: "And if any inmate tried to escape, he

3 would fare even worse." We all had that, all of us in the hall 3.

4 Q. Now, sir, what can you tell us about the condition of the inmate

5 who had suffered this beating? What happened to him, if anything?

6 A. He was in a very bad state.

7 Q. Physically, mentally, both, what?

8 A. He was mental even before that, and at that time physically, too,

9 through and through. We practically had to lift him and put him down. He

10 couldn't even make it to the lavatory under his own steam.

11 Q. I may not have asked you, and I'll ask you now, do you remember

12 approximately when, in terms of your imprisonment at Keraterm, this

13 incident would have taken place?

14 A. Well, it took place sometime in early July. I can't, I can't be

15 more -- accurate more than that.

16 Q. You had been at the camp for some time before this incident

17 happened, then?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, after that incident involving the prisoner Budimlic, did

20 Mr. Sikirica order anything to happen with respect to the Room 3 inmates?

21 A. Sikirica ordered to lock this hall up, and that we should relieve

22 ourselves with -- inside that room, that we will be getting no food and no

23 water because of what had happened. And that was done.

24 Q. Do you recall whose shift was on when Sikirica ordered the inmates

25 locked into their Room 3?

1 A. Fustar's.

2 Q. Whose shift came on next?

3 A. Kole's.

4 Q. During Fustar's shift, had that -- was that just starting at that

5 evening or had that shift, Fustar's shift, had that just finished at the

6 time you were ordered locked up?

7 A. It was coming -- Fustar's shift was drawing to the end.

8 Q. So during the entirety of the Fustar shift, is it your evidence

9 that you and your fellow inmates in Room 3 were locked up without food or

10 water?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did that continue during the next shift, Kole's shift?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Can you tell us about how things changed?

15 A. When Kole took over the shift, he asked, "Why is hall 3 locked?"

16 And he was told why, and that he ordered to open the hall 3, that is, to

17 unlock it.

18 Q. Did Sikirica appear on the scene at any time during Kole's shift?

19 A. Well, after a while, Sikirica came back to the camp, but we had

20 already come out of hall 3. We were already in front of it.

21 Q. What, if any, was Mr. Sikirica's reaction to seeing the hall 3 --

22 the Room 3 prisoners out of the room?

23 A. He started shouting and asking who allowed to unlock the door and

24 let out the inmates from Room 3.

25 Q. Then what happened?

1 A. Kole said that he personally had opened the door and allowed men

2 to come out.

3 Q. Was that the end of the story, or did something else happen?

4 A. He said to lock it and Kole said, "No, I won't, because I am the

5 shift commander and, during these 12 hours while I'm the commander, this

6 hall will stay open. It will not be locked."

7 Q. Were the doors locked again, or did they remain open?

8 A. It stayed open until night-time, as usual. It was always closed

9 at night.

10 Q. I'd like to turn you now, if you would, please, to sometime in

11 later July. Was there a time when you and your fellow inmates of Room 3

12 were transferred out of Room 3?

13 A. Yes. It happened sometime around the 20th of July when we were

14 ordered to move out of hall 3 to halls 1, 2 and 4, and this is what we

15 did.

16 Q. What room did you go to?

17 A. I went to hall 2.

18 Q. I gave you a time frame of latter part of July. Do you recall any

19 closer as to when that may have been?

20 A. Well, it was the 19th or the 20th. We had no watches or calendars

21 or something, and we'd been in the camp for quite some time by then so

22 that we couldn't really fix any dates.

23 Q. After Room 3 had been emptied and you and your colleagues had been

24 placed in various rooms, was Room 3 ever occupied again, to your

25 knowledge, and if so, how and when? Who went in there?

1 A. Inmates from Brdo, as they called it, were brought to hall 3.

2 Those were people from Carakovo, Rizvanovici and other neighbouring

3 localities.

4 Q. Did something happen to those people sometime after they were

5 placed in that room?

6 A. Well, those people were put there for a few days. They were given

7 no food, no water, which meant that they had been exposed to a special

8 treatment.

9 Q. Was that the case on all the shifts, do you know? In other words,

10 Fustar's, Kole's and Kajin's shift?

11 A. They were locked up during all the shifts. They could not come

12 out like the rest of us. They were always locked up regardless of the

13 shift.

14 Q. Did something beyond that happen?

15 A. One night, there was a horrible, horrendous massacre one night

16 committed against those men.

17 Q. During whose shift, do you know?

18 A. During Kole's shift.

19 Q. How do you know it was his shift?

20 A. I know it because Kole's shift usually allowed us more to go to

21 the lavatory and let us move slightly more, so that that evening we were

22 slightly more relaxed and that is how we knew that Kole was the shift

23 commander.

24 Q. During the course of what you have referred to as a massacre, did

25 you hear Kole's voice?

1 A. Yes. I heard him and we heard him. We all heard it.

2 Q. Could you tell where he was at the time that you were in Room 2

3 when you heard his voice?

4 A. Well, since halls 2 and 3 are adjacent, there is only the lavatory

5 between them, and they are quite close by, and he was somewhere near hall

6 2 because we could hear his voice quite well, shouting at those soldiers

7 or I don't know who else was there.

8 Q. Do you have any recollection as to what Kole's voice was saying?

9 A. I heard him curse at them, saying, "Don't fire at halls 2, 3.

10 Don't fire at people." And once I even heard him say to those in the

11 hall, "Don't come out, don't come out through the door." He seemed that

12 he sort of tried to protect halls 1, 2 and 4. We heard these voices,

13 these words which sounded like protection.

14 Q. One moment. I just want to look at your words for a minute. You

15 say it seemed that he sort of tried to protect halls 1, 2 and 4. What did

16 you hear to drive you to that conclusion?

17 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, I object to that.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Sir Ivan.

19 MR. LAWRENCE: If one reads the text, it doesn't say only that.

20 It's a very important part of the evidence.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: I quoted directly, I think.

22 JUDGE MAY: Not according to the transcript. He said two things,

23 according to the transcript.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: At first he said, "Don't fire at halls 2 and 3.

25 Don't fire at people." And then later on, "He seemed that he sort of

1 tried to protect halls 1, 2 and 4."

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I think that warrants a clarification.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

5 Q. Witness, you've just heard the passage that the court has read to

6 you. Can you tell us, to the best of your recollection, what you heard

7 him say and what impression you formed as a result of what he said.

8 JUDGE MAY: The question is, "What did he say?"

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

10 JUDGE MAY: Can you answer that, Witness, please? What did he

11 say?

12 A. He shouted at soldiers who were firing. One could hear bursts of

13 fire and screams and noise and he shouted, "Don't fire at halls 1, 2 and

14 4." And afterwards, I don't know, afterwards, we could hear him cry out

15 to people, "Don't come through the door. Don't come through the door."

16 That is what we heard.

17 MR. RYNEVELD:

18 Q. Did you hear any shooting, and if so, how long did it last?

19 A. Well, you know, we could hear that gunfire very well. How long it

20 lasted is difficult to say because we were all scared so that it is

21 impossible to say how long it lasted.

22 Q. After the shooting incident to which you referred, what happened

23 the next morning?

24 A. The next morning, all these dormitories, one, two, and three, were

25 locked, and a big lorry came, yellow and long, and they loaded those dead

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1 inmates into it.

2 Q. And who did the loading?

3 A. The inmates, those who were there, those who had survived that

4 hall. And Hasan Sivac was with them.

5 Q. After the bodies had been loaded onto the vehicle, did you see

6 what happened to the people who did the loading?

7 A. They all left in that same lorry and Hasan Sivac.

8 Q. When the truck -- I take it this vehicle left and then returned;

9 is that correct?

10 A. The lorry left the camp and then after a while returned to the

11 camp.

12 Q. Sir, when the truck returned, were the people who had loaded the

13 wounded and -- I'm sorry, loaded the bodies onto the truck, did they

14 return with the truck?

15 A. No, they did not. None of them returned.

16 Q. Sir, do you recall an incident after you had been transferred from

17 Room 3 to Room 2 when you saw one of your fellow inmates shot when he was

18 relieving himself on a barrel?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us about those circumstances that you witnessed?

21 A. I was in the hall, in hall 2, and there was a barrel we used to

22 relieve ourselves. And a number of people did go to relieve themselves,

23 and I was there getting ready because one had to see how many people were

24 queued up in front. So one of the inmates was sitting on the barrel, and

25 then we heard a shot, and we who were watching, we simply saw the man fall

1 down off the barrel. It was a pistol shot.

2 Q. Who shot him?

3 A. I do not know. Those who saw him said that his name was Faca, but

4 I did not see who fired the shot.

5 Q. Do you know whether it was a soldier or a guard or a visitor, or

6 do you know -- did you hear later who it was?

7 A. He was a visitor.

8 Q. Did you hear who was alleged to be the visitor?

9 A. We heard about it because before those incidents, he used to go

10 around the halls and look for some people, recognise some people, so that

11 he'd already been to the camp before.

12 Q. Do you recall his name?

13 A. I don't. I know that his nickname is Faca.

14 Q. All right, thank you. Now, sir, you've told us yesterday that you

15 had known one of the shift commanders by the name of -- by the nickname of

16 Kajin some years before the war; is that correct?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. Can I ask you now to turn your mind to an incident about two or

19 three days before the camp closed which, according to your earlier

20 evidence, would have then been -- well, if the camp closed on the 5th,

21 then, say, the 2nd or 3rd of August. Do you recall Kajin coming to the

22 Room 2 prisoners and having a conversation with prisoners?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us -- can you tell us about that, please, to the best

25 of your recollection. Do you remember what he said? Exactly as you can

1 recall it.

2 A. Kajin came and he was under the influence, and he came to hall 2

3 since many people from Trnopolje knew him, especially young people. And

4 he came to express his sympathy or something. And he leaned across the

5 bars, and then he dropped his pistol on the -- the pistol on the path, and

6 then he started sympathising and saying that he was sorry that all this

7 was happening, that the Serbs would not survive this. "You know very well

8 that I never beat anyone, but I was looking and seeking out only those --

9 only people with surnames that my grandfather had told me."

10 Q. You say he was under the influence. This may be a very silly

11 sounding question, but I'm going to ask: Under the influence of what,

12 could you tell? What do you mean by that?

13 A. Well, one could see, because he had never done that before or said

14 anything like that before, and we therefore concluded that he must have

15 had one too many.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm going to lead the witness.

17 Q. Do you mean one too many alcoholic beverages of some sort?

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour, to this

19 question.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, I think it's quite clear.

21 MR. RYNEVELD:

22 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you to tell us, if you would, please, what

23 he said to you in relation to -- what you can recall about what he said

24 about his grandfather. What was that conversation about names?

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object. I think the

1 witness has already said what Kajin had allegedly said about what he had

2 heard from the grandfather. I think it was quite clear, and I do not see

3 any reason for going back to something that has already been resolved.

4 [Trial chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, we agree with Mr. Petrovic that the

6 evidence has been given.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm not permitted to clarify this with the

8 witness?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: No.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

11 Q. Well, sir, you told us that the camp closed on the 5th of August;

12 is that correct?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. And how did -- when the camp closed, what did that mean for you?

15 Where did you go? What happened?

16 A. We went to Trnopolje camp.

17 Q. Were you the first ones out or did some other prisoners go before

18 you went to Trnopolje?

19 A. I left -- I was somewhere in the middle, but before that, two

20 buses had left in an unknown direction.

21 Q. Did you later find out where those buses went?

22 A. We -- later on, we found out that they had left for Omarska.

23 Q. Were you present when those inmates were loaded on to the two

24 buses, and do you know how it was that those individuals were put on the

25 buses?

1 A. Well, that morning, buses arrived. Many buses came and first they

2 started with a roll-call of inmates.

3 Q. Do you remember who was doing the roll-call?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. And did you know any of the men who were being called -- I'm

6 sorry, or was everybody called or were only certain people called?

7 A. Only certain people.

8 Q. And did you know any of those people?

9 A. I personally knew Nijaz Hodjic and I also heard them call out the

10 name of Esad Islamovic, former policeman.

11 Q. And what happened to those people?

12 A. Those people were put on those two buses and taken in the

13 direction of Omarska.

14 Q. And the rest of you, I take it, then, went to Trnopolje; is that

15 correct?

16 A. After that, they stopped calling out names. We were only told to

17 enter the buses one by one, and we left for Trnopolje.

18 Q. So do I understand your evidence correctly that only the names

19 that were read out went on two buses and left, and that the rest of you,

20 however many were left, did not have their names read out? You were just

21 loaded on to buses and taken to Trnopolje? Is that what I understand your

22 evidence to be?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How many inmates -- are you able to give us an estimate as to how

25 many inmates were put on the first two buses?

1 A. Approximately 50. I wouldn't be able to tell you precisely

2 because at that time we were quite excited because everybody expected to

3 be called -- to have his name called. So I did not keep the count of the

4 inmates in those two buses. But as they said, there were about 50 of

5 them. I do not have a personal opinion on that.

6 Q. And how many would you estimate were left after the two buses were

7 loaded and left? How many inmates were left to be transferred to

8 Trnopolje? Are you able to say?

9 A. Quite a few remained. Again, I wouldn't be able to tell you

10 precisely how many but quite a few.

11 Q. Now, sir, you were taken to Trnopolje and you stayed there, I take

12 it, until the 1st of October, 1992; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Just a couple of questions about -- still about Keraterm. Sir,

15 was there adequate food at Keraterm?

16 A. No, there wasn't.

17 Q. As a result of your stay at Keraterm, did you lose any body

18 weight?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Are you able to tell the Court how much you lost at Keraterm?

21 A. At least 20 kilograms.

22 Q. What happened when you got to Trnopolje, sir?

23 A. What happened was something out of the ordinary. We were very

24 glad because Trnopolje, unlike Keraterm, had -- was a different thing.

25 Q. Yes. And what happened at Trnopolje?

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1 A. I did not understand. What happened on that day? Or ...

2 Q. Sure, let me rephrase the question, sorry, Witness. Did you know

3 a Mladen Mitrovic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How did you know him and in what capacity?

6 A. Mladen Mitrovic was a waiter at the Trnopolje local commune.

7 Q. And did you see him at Trnopolje once you were transferred from

8 Keraterm to Trnopolje?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And when you saw him, how was he dressed?

11 A. He was wearing a military uniform.

12 Q. Do you recall an incident, sir, at Trnopolje, in early September,

13 when soldiers brought in some more detainees for Trnopolje?

14 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I have an objection to this, if I may,

15 please.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves?

17 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, the indictment, as you will recall, is

18 extremely carefully and precisely drawn. In particular, in one paragraph,

19 it makes it absolutely plain that the period which the Prosecution say

20 that the defendant Sikirica and indeed the other defendants were involved

21 in crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity, was between May and in

22 particular the 30th of August, 1992. This evidence, in our respectful

23 submission, falls outside that period. Your Honour, we respectfully

24 submit that it does not satisfy the test of relevance to, or probative

25 value of, any fact in issue between the parties on the basis of that

1 indictment.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that only in relation to genocide? Because in

3 your submission you confined it to genocide.

4 MR. GREAVES: I don't think I did. I think I mentioned crimes

5 against humanity as well. Yes, looking at the transcript --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I see that.

7 MR. GREAVES: In any event, as I understand -- I've spoken to my

8 learned friend about this objection. As I understand, what my learned

9 friend seeks to argue is that this evidence is relevant to the issue of

10 linking the camp at Trnopolje to the other camps, Keraterm and Omarska,

11 and so plainly it goes to the issue -- that issue, he says. Your Honour,

12 looking at the passage from which he derives the potential evidence this

13 witness is to give, I am unable to see, and I would invite him to justify,

14 what the link, the relevant link, between that evidence is, and the other

15 two camps.

16 We would respectfully submit that this evidence does not satisfy

17 the test of being relevant to facts in issue between the parties, does not

18 go to any issue regarding linkage between Trnopolje and Keraterm, and is

19 not probative of any fact.

20 Your Honour, this is an important matter. We would respectfully

21 invite you, if you don't agree with my objection, we would invite you to

22 give a reasoned decision as to why you consider this to be relevant and

23 probative so that we may preserve our rights on appeal and know what it is

24 we have to assail if we have to assail it.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't be so pessimistic.

1 Mr. Ryneveld.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour, my friend is quite right. He and

3 I did have a discussion about this particular passage and indicated that,

4 in my view, it was relevant and admissible, and so we did have our

5 discussions and agreed to disagree.

6 The bottom line is that this evidence, we would submit, is the

7 kind of evidence which shows that there is indeed a similar pattern of

8 conduct, a linkage, in terms of the fact that prisoners from Keraterm were

9 sent to Trnopolje, that prisoners at Trnopolje were beaten, prisoners at

10 Trnopolje were killed. There was a structure of commanders, guards.

11 Basically, it shows the linkage, and under Rule 93, it's evidence, we

12 would submit, of a consistent pattern of conduct which shows that

13 witnesses were being transferred, not only to Omarska where bad things

14 happened to them, but witnesses were being transferred to Trnopolje where

15 bad things happened to them and others, and there was a pattern of conduct

16 of soldiers, Serb soldiers bringing inmates to these camps where visitors

17 and/or guards did bad things to them. And we would submit that it's a

18 part of the linkage evidence, relevant to both genocide, the complicity in

19 genocide, and crimes against humanity, Articles 3 and 5.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, I speak for myself. You've called a

21 very great deal of evidence already --

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

23 JUDGE MAY: -- about that sort of thing happening in Keraterm and

24 Omarska.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

1 JUDGE MAY: Some of it is extremely serious conduct indeed. The

2 crucial issue, and I will be corrected if I'm wrong, the crucial issue in

3 this case, as I understand it, is whether these three accused were

4 involved at all in any of this conduct.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

6 JUDGE MAY: And whether there may be some tenuous or stronger

7 argument for admitting this evidence, isn't there a time for saying that

8 the issues need to be limited? Now, no doubt we will hear argument that

9 some of these things didn't happen, there was no pattern, there was no

10 genocide, of course; but even so, the question is whether repetition of

11 evidence is going to assist the Trial Chamber. I mean, I speak entirely

12 for myself, but it does occur to me that that is a point which needs to be

13 made.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour has quite clearly homed in on the key

15 issue, but there are other matters that the Prosecution, as part of its

16 case, has to lay a foundation, and although we've had -- well, I don't

17 want to comment on the quality of the evidence, but a lot of evidence

18 about Keraterm, significant evidence about Omarska, the amount of evidence

19 we have called thus far with respect to Trnopolje has not been anywhere

20 near in terms of volume or sheer -- I guess volume is the word, that much

21 about what went on at Trnopolje.

22 This was sort of a representative sample, as it were, that bad

23 things happened at Trnopolje as well. And this is sort of representative

24 sample evidence that people from Keraterm who had withstood the horrors

25 that we've heard about there, then went to Omarska where the same types of

1 things were going on. Different players, different players, but from the

2 same group.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, it is evidence outside the period

4 in the indictment. It might be prejudicial to the accused unless you have

5 some strong, cogent basis for its admissibility.

6 There are occasions when I would concede that evidence outside the

7 period of the indictment may be admissible, for example, to test

8 credibility of a witness; but apart from that, I am not so certain that

9 ground on which you seek to argue its admission is a strong ground because

10 it could be prejudicial.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, without pressing my argument but to respond

12 to Your Honour's point about the time frame, the linkage of the time

13 frame, which would otherwise make it relevant but for other

14 considerations, would be the fact that this witness was in Keraterm and

15 went to Trnopolje beyond -- period, during a time period within the time

16 frame of the indictment and beyond.

17 Now, simply because the matter continued beyond, there is still

18 linkage, we would submit, that there's an inference that could be drawn

19 that conduct after the time of the indictment was a continuation of the

20 same kind of conduct that went on during the period of the indictment.

21 However, it's not a point that I want to press too strongly, and upon

22 reflection, I suspect that I need not ask any further questions about this

23 matter.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, it's settled on that basis, then,

25 yes.

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you have then concluded your

3 examination-in-chief?

4 MR. RYNEVELD: I appear to have, yes, yes.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

6 Mr. Greaves.

7 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, before I cross-examine the witness,

8 could I tell you that our interpreter is leaving for a short period and

9 there's no discourtesy to Your Honours in her suddenly disappearing, if

10 that's acceptable to you.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, thank you.

12 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, I apologise, I've temporarily

13 forgotten what the pseudonym of the witness is.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: The pseudonym is Witness P.

15 MR. GREAVES: Witness P, thank you very much. I'm sorry.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

17 Q. Witness P, I'd like to ask you first of all about the issue of

18 shifts and shift commanders, if I may. You were detained in Keraterm camp

19 between the 14th of June, 1992, and the 5th of August. That's

20 approximately seven and a half weeks, 52 days. Were you able to observe

21 throughout that period what the shift structure was?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what you've told us was this: three shifts in operation.

24 Again, throughout the period that you were detained, three shifts; is that

25 right?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Each shift lasting a period of 12 hours, the effect of that being

3 that sometimes a particular person's shift would be on during the night,

4 and then as the rota continued, the same shift would then be on duty

5 during the daytime; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Three shift commanders, Kolundzija, Kole; Kajin, Damir Dosen; and

8 a man called Fustar; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I'd like you to focus, please, on the man called Fustar. Was he

11 someone that you knew from before the war?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How did you learn his name when you were in the camp, then?

14 A. The inmates from the Prijedor area knew him.

15 Q. Did you see the man who was identified to you as Fustar on a daily

16 basis throughout your stay?

17 A. Not every day, because he was not around every day when his shifts

18 were on.

19 Q. But on those occasions when he was around, was he around

20 throughout the shift?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And so you would have, on those occasions, ample opportunity to

23 observe him, would you not?

24 A. Not that I could observe him, but I could see him every once in a

25 while.

1 Q. He is not before the Tribunal, but if he was here, do you think

2 you would be today able to recognise that man called Fustar?

3 A. I don't guarantee that I would be able to recognise him.

4 Q. All right. Witness P, it's right, isn't it, that you've made a

5 total of four statements to various people concerning events in 1992? Do

6 you accept that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And let's just detail those, if we may, please. On the 29th --

9 sorry, the 24th of September 1998, you made two statements to the

10 Investigation and Documentation Agency, AID, in Sanski Most; is that

11 right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. One of those concerned events in Keraterm, and the second of them

14 concerned events in Trnopolje; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You were again seen by AID in December 1999, and you made a

17 further statement to them concerning events in Keraterm camp; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then in terms of written statements, you were seen by the

21 Office of the Prosecutor in August last year, 2000, interviewed by a man

22 called Ross Ardern, and you made a further written statement to the Office

23 of the Prosecutor; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you made your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor,

1 there was an interpreter present called Alma Muhic, wasn't there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. During the course of that interview, it's right, is it not, that

4 you had read out to you the September 1998 AID statement concerning events

5 in Keraterm? Do you recall that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And having had it read out to you, you affirmed that that

8 statement was accurate, did you not?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You also had, in a similar fashion, read out to you the AID

11 statement of December 17th, 1999, in the same way; is that correct?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. Perhaps I can just refresh your memory, if I may, please. When

14 you made your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in August of last

15 year, you said this, and you affirmed it as being true to the best of your

16 knowledge and recollection -- thank you very much, Sir Ivan. You said

17 this: "Statement dated 17.12.99 ... made to the Bosnian Authorities. I

18 had this statement read to me on 24 August 2000 by Alma Muhic. This

19 statement is accurate except for the sentence which begins..." And you

20 then go on to detail a correction in relation to Cupo Banovic. Does that

21 refresh your memory concerning that statement being read to you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In addition, you were interviewed and notes were taken of that

24 interview by an ICTY investigator, an OTP investigator, in December 1998.

25 Do you recall that?

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, it occurs to me that if you're going

2 to be cross-examining on these statements, we should really have copies of

3 them so that we could be looking at the passages and we would then be able

4 to form our views on the matter.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: I completely agree, and I would also recommend

6 that, in fairness, the witness, when he's being asked whether he did that,

7 should have a copy of it available as well.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, do we have copies?

9 MR. RYNEVELD: We certainly have them. Might the witness be given

10 a translated copy?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, there is a translated copy, is there? Yes,

12 yes.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies for

14 interrupting.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] In regard of presenting the

17 documents to the witness, I don't think that it is the right procedure

18 because it would refresh his memory and then he could use the documents in

19 front of him to give evidence which may be at discrepancy with what he may

20 recall without having had the documents in front of him. So he could use

21 it to his advantage.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: We consider it perfectly in order for the witness

24 to have the translated copy. He's being cross-examined as to his

25 statement.

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Would the court want to have copies of the AID

2 statement to which extensive reference is made in his subsequent

3 statement? Because --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We just have those that Mr. Greaves intends to

5 cross-examine on.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: So if Mr. Greaves then turns to the AID statement

7 concerning Keraterm, we are prepared to provide you with copies of that.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I have a copy here in B/C/S for the

10 witness, having just heard the court rule that it's proper.

11 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I hadn't anticipated copies because

12 previously we have not been giving copies of the statement, and I thought

13 I had been discouraged from doing that. So if I've done the wrong thing

14 on this occasion, I apologise.

15 Q. Witness P, that interview was conducted in November 1998, I'm

16 sorry, not December, November 1998, by Alisdair Putt and Kari Seppanen.

17 You have the notes of that interview read over to you and do you accept

18 that you affirmed, with, again, a couple of alterations, that the notes

19 were accurate -- an accurate reflection of your interview? Do you

20 remember that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Given your evidence, Witness P, that Fustar was the third shift

23 commander, that you learnt his name from other prisoners, you had

24 reasonable opportunities to observe this individual, why did you then say

25 to the Office of the Prosecutor, in August of 2000, this - Your Honours

1 will find it at page 3 in the middle - "I did not know Fustar. The other

2 shift commander was Kondic." Please explain to Their Honours why you said

3 that as being true, to the best of your knowledge and recollection.

4 A. Kondic was another one of those men whom I saw beating one man,

5 and maybe the confusion comes from there. With the exception of Kajin, I

6 did not know anyone else in that camp previously.

7 Q. It's absolutely plain, is it not, what you're saying there? You

8 didn't know Fustar. Please explain how it is that you are now saying,

9 "Oh, yes, I did know Fustar and he was the shift commander," when you are

10 saying there, shift commander is Kondic. Please explain that.

11 A. I am not clear on this.

12 Q. Well, they can't both be true, can they?

13 A. No.

14 Q. No. Indeed, in the AID statement of 1998 - and Your Honours

15 will find it at page 2 in the middle paragraph - again there you were

16 asserting --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, we are going to be presented with

18 that statement.

19 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: I can probably give you the English version. And

21 should we give a Bosnian copy to the witness?

22 MR. GREAVES: Yes, it's the one from Keraterm which is dated --

23 which is 1838.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

25 MR. GREAVES:

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1 Q. You were asserting there, Witness P, this: The shift commanders

2 and the camp guards were Damir Dosen, otherwise known as Kajin, whose

3 shift included Nenad and Predrag Banovic; a certain Kole; and a certain

4 Kondic. No mention there, is there, of Fustar being a shift commander.

5 Do you accept that?

6 A. I accept that because Kondic was also a shift commander, except

7 that at that time, of course, we could not get all the information. And

8 when we talked and exchanged our views, we decided that Fustar was one of

9 the shift commanders.

10 Q. Who decided? When you say "we decided," who decided that Fustar

11 was one of the shift commanders?

12 A. It's we who were detained there.

13 Q. Why didn't you put that in the two statements to which I've

14 referred you, "We decided Fustar was in fact the shift commander"?

15 A. Well, it was later on, the statements were already over, and I did

16 not insist on those alterations.

17 Q. But why not?

18 A. Well, I didn't -- I don't know why.

19 Q. Did you allow something which you knew to be untrue to go forward

20 as your accurate recollection, did you?

21 A. I did not allow it and ...

22 Q. Have you been talking about the evidence you were going to give in

23 this case with other people before coming here to The Hague, Witness P?

24 A. No.

25 Q. We've had other evidence in this case about Mr. Fustar being a

1 shift commander. Are you sure you haven't discussed this evidence with

2 someone who's told you to get your evidence in order and make sure it

3 tallies with other evidence, and that's why Fustar has suddenly become a

4 shift commander? Is that it?

5 A. No, no.

6 Q. You seem a little uncertain about that. Are you sure that you've

7 discussed it with nobody, Witness P?

8 A. I am.

9 Q. Let's turn to another topic. You gave evidence to Their

10 Honours --

11 MR. GREAVES: Could Your Honours give me a moment, please.

12 Q. You've given evidence before Their Honours in connection with a

13 man called Sikirica to this effect, that you knew him by sight from before

14 the war. How long had you known him before the war?

15 A. I don't know how long. I didn't really know him, but when I saw

16 his face in Keraterm, it looked familiar to me, but I didn't know him

17 really.

18 Q. So no doubt in your recollection, when you came to make statements

19 concerning matters in Keraterm, no doubt in your mind that the person you

20 say was Sikirica was someone you had seen on a number of occasions prior

21 to the war, no doubt at all?

22 A. No. I did see him a few times, but I never knew him personally.

23 But his face was familiar to me when I saw him in Keraterm, but where

24 he -- where I knew him from or how, I couldn't remember that. I only knew

25 that I had come across him someplace.

1 Q. Why did you then say to the Office of the Prosecutor --

2 MR. GREAVES: And Your Honours, I'm looking at page 3 of the 2000

3 statement, about six or seven lines down.

4 Q. You said this: "In relation to Sikirica, I did not know him from

5 before the war." Do you remember saying that?

6 A. No, I did not know him. He wasn't a friend or something like

7 that. That is what I said and that is what I meant and that is what I

8 mean. That is a man whose name I knew, that is what I meant when I said I

9 didn't know him.

10 Q. See, part of the purpose of the statement you made in August 2000

11 was to enable to make corrections and to add other information, wasn't it,

12 about events in Keraterm?

13 A. I don't see that any corrections should be made because that is

14 how I saw my life in Keraterm.

15 Q. It would be perfectly simple, would it not, Witness P, for you to

16 say to Mr. Ardern in August of last year, "I didn't know him by name, but

17 I knew him by sight and had seen him on occasions." It would be quite

18 simple to say that, wouldn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What it does say is something, I suggest, which is quite

21 different: "I did not know him from before the war." You are not telling

22 us the truth about your recollection of this man, are you?

23 A. I can't see how one can always use the same sentences. What I'm

24 saying is that I did not know him personally before the war, and I don't

25 know why you're asking me all those questions about it. I came to know

1 him in Keraterm quite enough.

2 Q. I want to turn now to some matters in relation to the beating of

3 the man Budimlic. Your evidence concerning that today is that this man

4 was confused. He was taken over to the gate, and there he was beaten by

5 members of two shifts, and, in due course, Sikirica joined in with two

6 blows of his own to this individual.

7 Why have you never mentioned until today the fact of the two

8 shifts joining together to beat this man, Witness P?

9 A. Those were right before the change of shifts. It was in late

10 afternoon when the shift changed, at that time.

11 Q. So when you made your statement to the AID in 1998, September

12 1998 --

13 MR. GREAVES: And Your Honours, in that statement I'm looking at

14 page 3, the fourth paragraph thereof.

15 Q. -- you describe the man Budimlic, you describe him unconsciously

16 making a round of Keraterm camp. He was caught walking by the guards who

17 said that he was trying to escape. They took him to the reception room,

18 and there he was beaten by the camp commander Dusko Sikirica in person.

19 No mention at all of the two shifts joining together to beat him up, is

20 there?

21 A. There were many soldiers there who beat him, and Sikirica was one

22 of them.

23 Q. And again, when you made your statement to the Office of the

24 Prosecutor last year, August, no mention there --

25 MR. GREAVES: And Your Honours, I'm looking at page 3 of that

1 statement, about ten lines down.

2 Q. -- no mention there of the participation of the two shifts beating

3 Budimlic.

4 A. No. There weren't two shifts on, but it looked to me because

5 there were so many soldiers because Kole's shift came on a very short time

6 after that.

7 Q. May I suggest to you, Witness P, that no such incident took place,

8 and certainly Sikirica never beat anybody called Budimlic in company with

9 two joined shifts, did he?

10 A. You may think so, but -- and say so, but I saw it. Had you been

11 there, maybe you would have seen it, too.

12 Q. I'd like to turn to something arising out of your statement to the

13 AID in September 1998, Witness P. It was taken from you, I think, by a

14 man called Zijad Ibric; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And at the time that you made it, you were able to read and sign

17 it, you indicated that you had no objection to it, and you were ready to

18 testify to all of the above in court. Do you remember that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you signed it?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. Was the statement which you made concerning Keraterm on that date,

23 24th September 1998, were those all your own words that you put into that

24 statement?

25 A. Not words. This is what I went through.

1 Q. What Mr. Ibric recorded was that which you had said; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Your words and your words alone; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. GREAVES: May we go briefly into private session, please, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, if my friend is about to refer to

10 page 3, I would be prepared to concede that it appears as if there is

11 editorial comment in the second to last paragraph, last sentence. That

12 certainly appears --

13 MR. GREAVES: Well, I'd be very grateful if my learned friend

14 didn't help me at this point. I'm always happy to have his assistance,

15 but on this occasion I think I'd like to explore the point on my own, if I

16 may, please.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

18 MR. GREAVES: And I hope people accept my thanks.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

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8 [Open session]

9 MR. GREAVES:

10 Q. Let's move on, if we may, please, Witness P. Before the war, were

11 you involved in any way in political life of your country?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did your national service in the JNA, did you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What branch of the JNA did you serve in?

16 A. Infantry. I was a lance corporal.

17 Q. You were a lance corporal. That was my next question. Did you

18 serve, subsequent to your release from Trnopolje, in the army of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Apart from your contacts with Mr. Ibric of AID, have you had

22 contacts concerning events at Keraterm and Trnopolje with any other

23 representative of the Bosnian -- Bosnia-Herzegovina intelligence services,

24 security services?

25 A. No. Except for AID and the gentleman from the Tribunal.

1 Q. You were engaged in military activities, weren't you, in 1992,

2 though? Isn't that right?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Were you not part of the Kozarac Territorial Defence?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Just help us about this: When you were arrested, what were you

7 doing exactly?

8 A. Standing in the field by the house.

9 Q. So you were in a field by your own home in the village where you

10 lived?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It's not a question of you being on the paved road from Kozarac to

13 Trnopolje?

14 A. When those soldiers picked me up, no, I was not.

15 Q. Please would you like to explain, then, in the light of what you

16 have just asserted, Witness P, why you told AID in September 1998 this:

17 "Serbian armed forces came from the direction of Trnopolje towards

18 Kozarac. I was arrested by these soldiers in the vicinity of the paved

19 road leading from Kozarac to Trnopolje." Why did you say that?

20 A. They didn't come from the direction of Kozarac but from the

21 direction of Trnopolje, and as I said yesterday, they took me and my two

22 brothers and other relatives from in front of my house and took us away,

23 and we are about 200 metres off the main road and then they took us to

24 that main road.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues]... taking part in the activities

1 of the Territorial Defence of Kozarac, hadn't you, that day?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And the Serbian troops had cut you off from your home village,

4 hadn't they, and were coming towards you from Trnopolje?

5 A. From the direction of Trnopolje.

6 Q. Heading -- the soldiers who arrested you were heading towards

7 Kozarac; that's right, isn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I'd like you to look, please, at a document, Witness P.

10 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, there are a number of copies here, both

11 for Your Honours, my learned friends both sides, and for the witness.

12 Your Honour, it's a list, it's in English, it's untranslated but it's a

13 simple document. It's headed thus: "List of members of the Kozarac

14 Territorial Defence." And I anticipate that it will be simple for Your

15 Honours to follow in whatever language.

16 Q. Witness P, just if you'd be so kind, would you just look through

17 briefly at the names in that list. Don't say anything. Just look through

18 it, please. Would you look at the final page, please, page 3, and would

19 you look, please, at the last-but-one name. Do you see that? Do you see

20 that, Witness P?

21 MR. GREAVES: It may be that his interpretation has gone off. I

22 don't know.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you hearing us, Witness P?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you hear the question asked by counsel?

1 A. Yes.

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry, Your Honour, it was my fault. I should

10 have anticipated that. I apologise.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are at 11.00 now, Mr. Greaves.

12 MR. GREAVES: Quite helpful, thank you very much.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness P, we are going to take a break for half

14 an hour. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence

15 with anybody, and that includes the members of the Prosecution team.

16 We are adjourned.

17 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.

20 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Witness P, could you please look again at the list which I have

22 given to you. What I would like you to do - there are approximately 140

23 names contained in those lists - without reading any of the names out,

24 please, would you go through the list and count up how many people on that

25 list you know or, in particular, knew in 1992.

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1 A. I know a number of people here from before the war.

2 Q. Yes. Could you give us an idea out of the 140 odd what sort of

3 proportion of that 140 that you knew from before the war?

4 A. The last names are familiar to me. I know almost all the last

5 names because in the Kozarac area, the population was spread out in

6 villages and each village had certain clusters of last names.

7 Q. Of course. So are you saying that when you use the phrase "last

8 names," you mean that the surnames of most of these people are familiar to

9 you?

10 A. Yes, the last or surnames are familiar to me.

11 Q. And are those people who lived in what might loosely be termed the

12 Kozarac area?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The people who are named on that list, were they young men like

15 yourself, for the most part?

16 A. I wouldn't be able to say that. For instance, Ceumic, this --

17 Ceumic, this last name, I don't know that name at all, for instance. I

18 see that name for the first time. Also Crnic.

19 Q. Yes. The question I was asking you, Witness P, and please can you

20 help us, the people on the list whose names you do recognise, were those

21 ones, in large part, young men of a similar age to yourself?

22 A. I don't know all these people. I cannot tell you because I don't

23 know all of them. I know the names because each village in our area

24 contained families with two or three last names, so, for instance, I have

25 several namesakes myself.

1 Q. Don't mention your name. Of those you knew personally as opposed

2 to knowing that they are of recognisable last names, of those that you

3 knew personally, were those people young men like yourself?

4 A. Here there's only one name. I only knew personally Zera Besic,

5 and I didn't know the others.

6 Q. All right. Can I just draw your attention to some particular

7 names and see if you knew of them and about them. Looking, please,

8 Witness P, at the first page, in the right-hand column there is a

9 reference to Sead Cirkin who appears to have the rank of captain. Did you

10 know of or know about that person in 1992?

11 A. I did not know anything about him except when he was brought to

12 Keraterm. That is when I first saw him and that is when I first heard of

13 him.

14 Q. Was he someone who had formerly been an officer in the JNA who had

15 deserted and subsequently or at about this time was also an assembly

16 delegate at the opstina of Prijedor?

17 A. He is now a representative in the Prijedor municipality, and from

18 what we knew, he was a former officer of the JNA.

19 Q. The next name on the list, Dudo Besic, son of Ramiz, and in

20 brackets Heckler, did you know him or know of him?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Number 8 on that same column, Witness P, Saban Jaskic. Did you

23 know him, an active-duty policeman?

24 A. I knew him as a policeman from before the war.

25 Q. Next page, please, Witness P, the left-hand column, fourth name,

1 Suljo Besic, TO commander, Kozarac. Did you know him or know of him?

2 A. No. I did not know of him. Only later, I learned that his

3 nickname was also Kole.

4 Q. A little bit further down in that column, Witness P, Rifat Besic,

5 Crisis Staff organiser? Did you know of him?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you know of the existence of a Crisis Staff in Kozarac?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Two names further down, Zlatan Hrnic, somebody from Croatia. Did

10 you know him?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Greaves, where does this come from?

13 MR. GREAVES: I'm hoping that my photocopying was not sabotaged by

14 the machine. I'm hoping that you should have a page which at the bottom

15 of it is 00916612 and it has a pagination 2.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Oh, no I've got it. I meant where does --

17 what's the source of this?

18 MR. GREAVES: It's been disclosed to us by the Prosecution. We

19 believe it may be an intelligence document prepared on the Serbian side.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, thank you.

21 MR. GREAVES: It may be that the Prosecution have a better idea

22 where it came from but maybe they are not prepared to tell us, I don't

23 know, for whatever reason.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, we have the original document. It's in the

25 collection. And does my friend want the original document?

1 MR. GREAVES: No, no. I was just anticipating that it might come

2 from a privileged source or a source they don't wish to disclose.

3 JUDGE MAY: I started this. I wanted to know if it were possible

4 to track down the source. At the moment, it doesn't matter. It may

5 matter in due course.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: It's a Serbian source.

7 JUDGE MAY: It's a Serbian source. Thank you.

8 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much to my learned friend. Sorry,

9 can I just go back to see where I'd got to?

10 Q. The next name, Witness P, that I want you to look at, please, is

11 immediately opposite the last one that I asked you about, in the

12 right-hand column, number 41, somebody whose name is described as Sojo, a

13 captain. Did you know of anybody of that description?

14 A. I see and I hear it from you for the first time, about anything

15 like that.

16 Q. All right. And the name immediately below it, number 42, Major

17 Brko. Did you know of him or about him?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Towards the bottom of that column, please, Witness P, Hamid Softic

20 from Kamicani, a weapons trafficker. Did you know of him?

21 A. I knew him as a hodza from the Kamicani community.

22 Q. Did you hear anything of him concerning him dealing in any way in

23 arms procurement, arms sales, at the time, 1992?

24 A. No, I did not hear about it, nor did I know of it.

25 Q. And Witness P, would you turn now to the final page of this

1 document, please. Would you look about halfway down the page, please, the

2 name Zedir Kahrimanovic, described as the organiser of the Green Berets in

3 Trnopolje. Is he somebody you knew from your home village?

4 A. I am not sure that there are any Kahrimanovics in Trnopolje at

5 all. I'm not aware of that name in Trnopolje, and I hear the name Zedir

6 for the first time.

7 Q. And immediately below that, Witness P, there is a name Khoja,

8 K-H-O-J-A, Khoja, Khoja. Would the name Izet Mesic mean anything to you

9 in connection with that?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And finally, the name immediately below that, Jaskan from Matric,

12 described as a courier. Know anything of him?

13 A. No. I know where Matrics live. There is a hamlet Matric but I

14 don't know if there was a Jasmin Matric.

15 Q. Yes. The name is Jaskan, not Jasmin.

16 A. Jaskan? That name does not exist in our area at all.

17 Q. All right. Thank you.

18 MR. GREAVES: May that list acquire an exhibit number, please,

19 Your Honour?

20 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, as well as the other two?

22 MR. GREAVES: May they also have exhibit numbers at this stage, if

23 you wish.

24 THE REGISTRAR: The list will be Defence Exhibit D10/1. The AID

25 statement will be Defence Exhibit D11/1. And the witness statement of 24

1 August 2000 will be Defence Exhibit D12/1.

2 MR. GREAVES:

3 Q. Witness P, could I just finally suggest a name to you in

4 connection with that last name which I've put to you, Jasim Ridzanovic.

5 And the name that was on the list is a nickname for that person. Does

6 that in any way refresh your memory?

7 A. Where is that name?

8 Q. The last name that I asked you about, Jaskan, it may well be that

9 that person's proper name is Jasim Ridzanovic.

10 A. What number is that?

11 Q. The last one I asked you about, final page, Jaskan from Matric.

12 Jaskan is a nickname for the person Jasim Ridzanovic. Does the name which

13 I've now given to you ring any bells with you at all?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Witness P, in the statements which you made

16 to AID, you routinely refer to the Serbs as Chetniks. Is there any

17 particular reason why you refer to Serbs as Chetniks?

18 A. Because that is how they were declaring themselves and that was

19 part of their behaviour.

20 Q. It's used, is it not, by people in the Muslim community as a

21 derogatory term concerning any Serb, isn't it, in the same way that balija

22 is used as a derogatory term of Muslims? Isn't that right?

23 A. I don't know about their usage, but we did not call everyone by

24 that name.

25 Q. Concerning the date on which you were detained, the people who

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1 were detained with you, is this correct, that those were all men of

2 military age, Witness P?

3 A. All those who were detained from 17 and up, up to 60 or 70, they

4 all went.

5 Q. So the women, the children, and the men over 60 or so, all left

6 behind; is that correct?

7 A. They stayed in their homes.

8 Q. When you arrived at Keraterm, property was taken from you. Was it

9 your conclusion from what you saw in relation to that that this was simply

10 a case of the guards helping themselves, stealing property? Is that

11 correct?

12 A. I don't know who wanted this, but all property, that is, the

13 valuables, the wallets, identity cards, watches, rings if anybody had any,

14 all that was taken away.

15 Q. We've had evidence in this case of identity cards being taken away

16 upon arrival at Keraterm and then returned subsequently whilst people were

17 still detained there. Was yours returned to you whilst you were at

18 Keraterm, Witness P?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And was that the case in respect of other detainees or all other

21 detainees; they all got their ID cards back eventually?

22 A. Personal documents were returned, those who had driver's licenses,

23 identity cards and such. I don't know who had what.

24 Q. Of course. Initially placed in Room 2 but subsequently

25 transferred almost immediately to Room 3, how many people were in Room 2

1 when you were placed in there, Witness P, please?

2 A. There were a lot of people there. The hall was almost full.

3 Q. So approximately how many people? I don't need an exact figure,

4 but roughly how many people?

5 A. There were over 200. I wouldn't be able to give you a precise

6 number.

7 Q. Then shifted to Room 3, were there people in Room 3 when you were

8 placed in there already?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you remain in Room 3 throughout the rest of your detention at

11 Keraterm?

12 A. Not until the end.

13 Q. When did you move and where were you moved to?

14 A. Sometime between 19th and 20th, maybe a couple of days later, that

15 is when I was transferred to hall 2.

16 Q. Were there any Serb detainees of whom you were aware at Keraterm?

17 A. No.

18 Q. During your detention in Keraterm, you were able, were you not, to

19 move about freely, during the day, at least. Isn't that right?

20 A. Not always. To the toilet and things like that.

21 Q. You were able to move, were you not, between Room 3 and Room 4,

22 isn't that right?

23 A. Sometimes.

24 Q. And you were able several times to go visit friends in there,

25 weren't you?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As far as the date when -- the first day when you arrived in

3 Keraterm, on that occasion you were not beaten at all; is that correct?

4 A. No. One soldier only shoved me.

5 Q. He shoved you. Did it cause any injury of any kind?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You were interrogated. When you were interrogated, were you

8 collected, in order to be delivered to that interrogation, by a camp

9 guard?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did he deliver you to the interrogation and then leave it so

12 that he took no part in the interrogation?

13 A. Yes. He brought me to the door, opened up the door for me, and

14 waited for me in front there.

15 Q. And then took you back after the interrogation was completed; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The interrogator who questioned you was somebody called Modic; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you were only interrogated by one person; is that correct?

22 A. Only one person.

23 Q. Did you know Modic from before the war?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you learn of him that he was in fact an active police officer,

1 an inspector in the police?

2 A. No, I did not learn where he used to be, but I learned that before

3 the war he was on the commission for drivers' tests.

4 Q. During the course of that interview by Mr. Modic, you were not

5 beaten; isn't that correct?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You accept that there was no beating during the interrogation, is

8 that -- so that I can clarify it?

9 A. No, no. There was no beating.

10 Q. The nature of the questions, was that about your political

11 affiliations, your -- whether you'd taken part in military activities,

12 that sort of thing?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You were able to observe, were you not, a number of lists which

15 Mr. Modic appeared to have. Do you recall that?

16 A. I could not see any lists personally, but I did see that he had

17 some lists in front of him, just as I do now, which he referred to.

18 Q. You were able to conclude, were you not, from what you observed

19 and what you heard, that these were lists which were being collected by

20 the people involved in the interrogations? Would you accept that?

21 A. I don't know who had prepared those lists. I could not specify.

22 Q. But did you also conclude that those lists contained names of

23 inmates they suspected of belonging to a political party or to have taken

24 part in military activities as part of a local Territorial Defence or

25 membership of the patriotic league, right?

1 A. I didn't know the purpose of those lists. I just saw them there,

2 but what purpose was behind these names, whether it was political or

3 something else, I did not know about that.

4 Q. You see, when you made a statement in September 1998 to AID, you

5 said this: "Those inmates whom they suspected of belonging to a party,

6 the TO, patriotic league, et cetera, or for whom they had some proof of

7 this, were taken away to the Omarska camp where their lives ended." So

8 you must have been able to come to some conclusion about the basis for

9 selection. How was that?

10 A. This took place during the stay in the camp when after the

11 interrogation, let's say if the interrogations took two to three days,

12 people would be called out and taken to Omarska. This is how we concluded

13 that these lists of those of the inmates had some purpose. But on the day

14 when I was interrogated, I could not figure out the purpose of those

15 lists.

16 Q. The people who were conducting interrogations, is it right that

17 they were not part of the staff at the camp or engaged in activities at

18 the camp, other than interrogations?

19 A. I did not see them except then, except on that occasion when I was

20 interrogated. Apart from that, I did not see them around the camp.

21 Q. Did you and your fellow detainees discuss the people who were

22 involved in the interrogations at all?

23 A. We did not really discuss these people in particular, but after

24 me, my elder brother went there, and he had taken his driving test with

25 Modic, and he was then who told me that it was Modic.

1 Q. The guards at the camp, or people who were working within the

2 perimeter of the camp, wore a variety of uniforms, didn't they?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Some people wore the military camouflage of the JNA; is that

5 right?

6 A. There were camouflage ones; there were the ones that they have

7 now; there were all sorts of uniforms.

8 Q. And in particular, were there blue police uniforms as well?

9 A. I did see a few blue police uniforms.

10 Q. Is it right that at some stage during your detention in Keraterm,

11 you saw an individual called Dijaz Sivac being ill-treated in some way?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was that because he had possessed a pistol before the war and was

14 unable to remember part of the serial number to the satisfaction of the

15 person who was ill-treating him?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. It's right, isn't it, that one of the shift commanders, Damir

18 Dosen, as soon as he became aware of that ill-treatment taking place,

19 Damir Dosen took immediate steps to stop it, didn't he?

20 A. That's what Amir Kararic said. As they were being beaten, Duca

21 came and said, "Give me the knife to cut their throats." And since Kajin

22 knew Josip Pavlovic and those other men, when these men recovered a

23 little, they said that Kajin had come to their rescue and prevented it.

24 Q. I want to ask you now briefly about the man Jasmin Ibrahimi, the

25 pastry shop owner. Can I suggest to you that the correct name for that

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1 man is Jasmin Izmiri, not Ibrahimi? Can you help us about that?

2 A. I don't know his surname. All I know is that his first name is

3 Jasmin and where he worked, and I know him personally.

4 Q. When that man was killed, it's right, isn't it, that he was taken

5 away in a hearse? Do you remember that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And in particular, a T-A-M or TAM hearse made by TAM; is that

8 correct?

9 A. I wouldn't know the make. All I know that it was a hearse; and

10 what the make was, I never tried to find out.

11 Q. I'm relying on what you told AID in September 1998 where you

12 described it as being of that mark and make. Does that refresh your

13 memory, Witness P?

14 A. I may have said that. I know that it was a hearse because I used

15 to see that same vehicle in front of the hospital and in other places in

16 Prijedor.

17 Q. Emsud Bahonjic, was he also taken away in a hearse?

18 A. He was.

19 Q. Drago Tokmadzic, was his body taken away in a hearse?

20 A. I did not see his body being taken away. We all know, however,

21 that some of the bodies were taken away in a hearse.

22 Q. Returning briefly to the man Budimlic, after that incident, if we

23 can just summarise what happened, the shift commander specifically

24 disobeyed Sikirica in relation to closing up of the rooms; is that

25 correct?

1 A. I don't know what you mean "disobey." The door was already locked

2 when he arrived. It -- not long before that, because the shifts were

3 changing when it happened, and he ordered the door to be unlocked.

4 Q. It comes to this: That he undid the doors and ordered that they

5 should -- whilst he was in charge, it was going to be done his way; is

6 that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So he specifically undid that which you say Sikirica had ordered

9 to take place?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Let me make it plain that we don't accept that Sikirica gave any

12 such orders, but in any event, whatever was done was undone. I want to

13 turn now, please, if I may, to the incident where a large number of people

14 were killed in Room 3, Witness P. It's right, isn't it, that those who

15 carried out that massacre were people who had come from outside the camp

16 in order to perpetrate the incident? Do you accept that?

17 A. I cannot accept that. Anything is possible. And I cannot offer

18 you any conclusion because we could not watch it.

19 Q. All right. It's right, isn't it, that one of the other shift

20 commanders, Kole, during the course of that night, did what he could to

21 prevent those who were carrying out the massacre, did what he could to

22 prevent them from massacring people in Room 3? Do you accept that?

23 A. Well, I do not accept it specifically, but judging by the words,

24 by his words, that we overheard as he was shouting, those were attempts,

25 but --

1 Q. [Previous translation continues]... not interrupt. What he --

2 what you told the AID in September 1998 was that he cursed those who were

3 doing it and told them not to shoot at the people. That's right, isn't

4 it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And he took steps to tell the inmates not to go out of the door,

7 in order to protect them from what was happening. That's right, isn't

8 it?

9 A. That is what his words came down to.

10 Q. I'd like now to turn to an issue concerning a particular

11 individual whom you may know. Does the name Bajazit Jakupovic mean

12 anything to you?

13 A. Bajazit Jakupovic? Yes.

14 Q. Did you know him from before the war in some way?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you know him while he was in Keraterm as a detainee?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was he someone who had formerly been a military pilot in the

19 service of Yugoslavia?

20 A. That's what we were told when we were in Keraterm, that he had

21 been a pilot, but whether military or otherwise, I didn't know that.

22 Q. Can you just tell me if you knew two other people, Abid Bajric?

23 Did you know him?

24 A. Bajric? I knew one Bajric. That is, I know the surname, but Abid

25 Bajric? Well, I suppose that must be the man. There was a Bajric with us

1 in hall 3.

2 Q. And Nenad Mujkanovic, did you know him?

3 A. Perhaps I did, because there are quite a number of Mujkanovics.

4 Q. Were they people who were in Room 2 or 3 along with you?

5 A. Bajric was there.

6 Q. You're not sure about the other one. Do you know -- I'm sorry?

7 A. Bajazit was there but then he was taken to Omarska so that he

8 didn't spend much time with us.

9 Q. Thank you. Finally this, concerning your stay at Trnopolje:

10 During your stay there, did you see at Trnopolje any of the people whom

11 you had seen as camp or security personnel at Keraterm?

12 A. The officials who were there, no. Only once, on one occasion,

13 Zigic came after we had arrived. But those guards, we did not see in

14 Trnopolje any more.

15 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Witness P.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves. Mr. Ryneveld?

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour, I realise that my learned friend

18 has finished cross-examination. To assist and give further clarification

19 as to where this list D10/1 came from, my inquiry is that this list was

20 seized from the Prijedor Police Station by the ICTY under a search warrant

21 on the 12th of December, 1997. So this list that my friend was

22 cross-examining from would have been created by the Prijedor police. That

23 is the source.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

25 MR. GREAVES: I'm grateful to my learned friend for the

1 information.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic?

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness P.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. Is it true that you were arrested on the 14th of July, that you

8 were brought to Keraterm between 1500 and 1600 in the afternoon?

9 A. It is.

10 Q. Can you tell us which room exactly were you put in then?

11 A. We spent the first few hours in Room 2.

12 Q. And after that?

13 A. In hall 3. It's not a room, it's a hall.

14 Q. And who decided that you should move from Room 3 to Room 2?

15 A. The guards who were there.

16 Q. Did you know any of the guards who told you to move to Room 3?

17 A. No. That was the first day there.

18 Q. And until the end of your stay in Keraterm, were you in Room 3 all

19 the time?

20 A. No, no. I wasn't there until the end.

21 Q. Is it true that you stayed there until about the 20th of July,

22 1992?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Can you tell us how many people were accommodated in Room 3 whilst

25 you were there, until the 20th of July?

1 A. Well, it was around 170 something, very roughly.

2 Q. Could you tell us something about the size of Room 3?

3 A. Well, how shall I tell you? I don't know what yardstick to use.

4 Q. Well, could you, perhaps, compare it to this courtroom?

5 A. Well, it was smaller than this courtroom.

6 Q. And tell me, in Room 3 whilst you were there, were you always in

7 one and the same place? I mean, did you sit/sleep in one and the same

8 place always?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you tell us, where was that exactly?

11 A. As you enter the hall, a bit to the left, next to the wall where

12 the WC was.

13 Q. And how far was it from the front door?

14 A. Two or three metres, perhaps.

15 Q. And after you moved to Room 2, could you tell us how many people

16 did you find there?

17 A. There, I believe we were over 300 there.

18 Q. And the size of that room as against Room 3 or this courtroom?

19 A. It was larger than both Room 3 and this courtroom.

20 Q. And in Room 2, where did you put up?

21 A. I was to the right of the door in a kind of a passage between the

22 pallets because there were very many inmates, and I slept under the feet

23 of those inmates as there wasn't enough room.

24 Q. And how far was that from the door?

25 A. Well, it could have been about ten metres or less, rather.

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1 Q. Could you tell us, what kind of door did Room 2 have?

2 A. It was a metal door, but because it was very hot they came and put

3 that grid. I don't know what to call it, a kind of a grid that is used in

4 construction works. I don't really know how to describe it.

5 Q. And do you know a man whose nickname was Brta?

6 A. Brta? No.

7 Q. Do you know a man called Fehim Krupic, nicknamed Feha?

8 A. You mean the one nicknamed Feha?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Yes. I met this man in that hall.

11 Q. Which hall?

12 A. Hall 2.

13 Q. And what was he in hall 2?

14 A. Well, every hall had a kind of a steward or room leader, so that

15 is what he was.

16 Q. And during your stay in Room 3, did that room have a room leader?

17 A. There was one. I know that his surname is Alic.

18 Q. Do you know a man called Dizdarevic and Muharem Sivac whilst you

19 were in Room 3?

20 A. No. Muharem Sivac, I know that he was -- that is, I found out

21 later because I inquired about that surname. He came from somewhere on

22 Brdo.

23 Q. Do you know a man nicknamed Burza?

24 A. That was -- I think he was the leader of Room 4. He was a man

25 from Prijedor.

1 Q. During your stay in Room 3, could you look through the door from

2 the inside of the room or through the windows and see outside?

3 A. From where I was, one couldn't, but because -- in search of fresh

4 air, we could come to the door. No, we could not watch through the

5 windows, but yes, we could look out through the doorway. It was open.

6 Q. And when the door was closed, could you see anything outside?

7 A. Well, there were some holes, and one could look through them.

8 Q. Was there any tolerance, any gap at the foot of the door, between

9 the floor and the door?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. You said that you had served the army, that you were with the

12 infantry, and that you had the rank of lance corporal; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Could you tell us when was that and where did you serve.

15 A. 1988 and 1989, and I first went to Urijanka [phoen] and then to

16 Ilirska Bistrica in Slovenia.

17 Q. During your stay in Keraterm, could you tell us approximately, as

18 far as you could see, how many guards were there on any one shift?

19 A. Well, you know their number. I don't know. From what we could

20 see, there would always be some ten guards around. We could see them

21 because they were distributed around, and in our field of vision, there

22 were always about ten of them.

23 Q. And what did they wear?

24 A. Some wearing camouflage, some in army uniforms, some were in those

25 army uniforms.

1 Q. Were there any guards wearing police uniforms?

2 A. Whether there were guards or did they simply come to the camp, but

3 I did see police uniforms. Now, why did they come there, whether they

4 stood duty there, I cannot say.

5 Q. Tell me, were there some guard posts in the -- in Keraterm?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you please be more specific?

8 A. Well, there was the gate, the entrance, next to the weigh bridge

9 in that, as they called it, office, and to the right of the weigh bridge

10 was a tent. And in the direction of hall 4 -- well, whether in the

11 direction of, but in front of it was a machine-gun nest with bags piled

12 up, and there was a machine-gun which was there all the time and with

13 guards.

14 Q. You're saying that there was a machine-gun placed opposite hall 4?

15 A. Not opposite. Roughly towards halls 3 and 4, in that area. They

16 had made a barricade. Sandbags were piled up there.

17 Q. And was that machine-gun there throughout your stay in Keraterm?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you see any other machine-gun placed anywhere else in

20 Keraterm?

21 A. No, I personally did not see any.

22 Q. But you did move around the compound?

23 A. Well, not around the compound. From the hall to the WC and, on a

24 couple of occasions, I went to hall 4, so that it was only this one small

25 area. It wasn't around the compound.

1 Q. But when you moved, did you then move between Room 1 to Room 4?

2 Is that what you covered?

3 A. Between Room 2 to Room 4. No, not always.

4 Q. And when you were outside in front of the rooms, as you put it,

5 could you -- did you have a good view of Keraterm in the direction of the

6 gate and the weigh bridge? Could you see that whole area?

7 A. Yes, we could see all that.

8 Q. And at that gate, sliding gate, was there a kiosk or something

9 there?

10 A. Yes, there was a kiosk where they stood guard.

11 Q. And was there another such identical kiosk in position as you

12 looked from Room 1 to the right towards the fence along the Prijedor-Banja

13 Luka road?

14 A. Well, there could have been a kiosk. I know that there was a tent

15 there pitched. I remember a tent which was there, an open-sided one.

16 Q. And the food for the inmates, was it prepared in Keraterm or was

17 it brought to Keraterm?

18 A. It was brought to Keraterm.

19 Q. Do you know who distributed that food?

20 A. It was done by two women, assisted by some inmates from Prijedor,

21 such as, for instance, Burza, whom you mentioned.

22 Q. And in front of which room was the food distributed?

23 A. In front of Room 3 -- 2, excuse me, and 1.

24 Q. And did you see where bread was stored?

25 A. Bread arrived there behind -- beyond this distribution area, there

1 was a door, and when they would come, they'd put in something behind the

2 door. I don't know what it was there but I know that they kept bread

3 behind that door.

4 Q. Is that a small door to the right from the entrance into Room 2?

5 A. Yes, but just a normal door. It wasn't too big or something.

6 Q. But the exact position was between Rooms 2 and 3; is that it, more

7 or less?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. And when you described your arrest, during the

10 examination-in-chief, you said that you had recognised a Serb soldier and

11 you said that his nickname was Cigo; is that correct?

12 A. I did not recognise him. I simply -- his face was familiar to

13 me. And then a neighbour who knew him personally and who socialised with

14 him in Omarska, with those taxi drivers and others, he said, "That's Cigo,

15 a taxi driver from Omarska." He said that that same day. And they even

16 said hello one to another.

17 Q. And that is how you remember the name -- the man, by that nickname

18 given you by that other man?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know the full name of that man?

21 A. I knew it because that neighbour had told me his full name, but it

22 meant nothing, his name.

23 Q. And do you know now the name of that man?

24 A. No, I can't recall it.

25 Q. In the statement you gave in September 1998 to the AID, it states

1 that this man's name is Momcilo Radanovic.

2 A. Well, I was there with this neighbour of mine and I did ask him

3 about the name and he had told me the name but I only remember the

4 nickname.

5 Q. And the name Momcilo Radanovic which ended up in the statement, is

6 that the result of something that you said?

7 A. I said that. I learned that the name was Momcilo Radanovic,

8 called Cigo. This is what I said. Because Mirzet knew him quite well.

9 They were colleagues.

10 Q. When you gave that statement to Zijad Ibric in 1998, were you

11 there alone or was Zijad with you?

12 A. I was alone.

13 Q. Do you know what a topographic map is?

14 A. Well, that is a military map that Cigo had. And he was telling

15 who was holding which line in which area.

16 Q. Is there a difference between a regular map and this map?

17 A. Yes. This one is distinguished by the fact that every detail of

18 each village is presented there to the last detail.

19 Q. Tell me, do you know a name -- a man named Sakib Sivac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was he arrested the same day when you were?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you were arrested and when you were going in the direction of

24 Kozarac and Sivac, and later on when you were transported to the -- on the

25 bus to Keraterm, were you there together?

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1 A. Together with whom?

2 Q. Sakib Sivac.

3 A. No. He came from the upper part of the village, and I came from

4 the lower part of the village, so we were brought from two different sides

5 so we were not together.

6 Q. Were those two groups then brought together?

7 A. Yes, they were.

8 Q. And you were surrounded by Serb soldiers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Among these soldiers, was he there too?

11 A. No, I did not see him.

12 Q. Did you meet Sakib Sivac in Keraterm later on?

13 A. No. He was in hall 2 all the time and I only arrived -- I only

14 came to Room 2 later.

15 Q. When the bus carrying prisoners arrived at Keraterm, you said that

16 after you got off the bus, you were beaten; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember anyone who beat you?

19 A. As I said, I was not beaten but Zigic was present. He was the one

20 who yelled the most and who beat the most.

21 Q. Was there anyone else in addition to Zigic whom you could

22 recognise?

23 A. There was Cavic, who had arrived with us, who was in the village

24 and who came as an escort with buses.

25 Q. Was this Cavic later a guard at Keraterm?

1 A. No.

2 Q. But did you subsequently see him visiting Keraterm?

3 A. No, I did not see him later.

4 Q. When you talked about the man nicknamed Duca, when and from whom

5 did you learn that name?

6 A. I learned it from the inmates who used to play soccer and I think

7 they -- he used to play soccer, so they knew him from there.

8 Q. Did this Duca come to Keraterm often?

9 A. Well, yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many times did you see him or

11 how many times did you hear from others about him coming?

12 A. I saw him a number of times myself.

13 Q. Could you describe him for us?

14 A. He was well-built, not especially tall. He had the gloves that

15 were cut off at fingers, and he was carrying a police baton.

16 Q. Can you describe his face or his hair?

17 A. Well, I don't know what to tell you. I am 180 centimetres high,

18 and he was about the same height. We did not dare look at him very

19 closely, so I did not look at him so that I could remember some details.

20 Q. Did the Tribunal investigators give you some photographs for

21 identification?

22 A. No.

23 Q. My question to you is, when you first contacted -- when you first

24 had contact with the Tribunal investigators, were you shown any

25 photographs and were you asked if you could recognise Duca Knezevic among

1 them?

2 A. Perhaps they did produce some photographs, but I did not -- I'm

3 not sure whether they did or did not show me anything, but I did not -- I

4 never recognised his face at any time.

5 Q. During your examination-in-chief yesterday you said -- you

6 mentioned an occasion when Duca beat three men, Dijaz Kararic [as

7 interpreted] and two others?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you tell us approximately when this happened, when -- in

10 relation to when you arrived at Keraterm, let's say how many days after?

11 A. That may have happened about 15 days after my arrival. I cannot

12 tell you exactly, but about 15 days, a couple of days less or more.

13 Q. Is it true that during your examination-in-chief, you said that

14 the inmates were amazingly lucky that Duca stopped beating them because

15 they would have died?

16 A. No, I did not say that. I said that they heard some voices;

17 otherwise, he would not have stopped.

18 Q. Yesterday during the examination-in-chief, you said that, "I don't

19 know why the beating of these three men stopped."

20 A. I said that I did not know why it stopped, but after their screams

21 and moans, it was strange to us that it suddenly stopped because they went

22 on until people died, but now we all of a sudden heard that they'd stopped

23 and somebody was yelling something. And then later we were told that,

24 fortunately for them, Kajin came by and it stopped.

25 Q. Who told you that fortunately for them Kajin arrived and stopped

1 all that?

2 A. It was Amir and Josip. Both of them knew him from before.

3 Q. And did they tell you that they were sure that it was Kajin?

4 A. It is them who know this.

5 Q. I'm asking you this because yesterday, when answering the question

6 of the Prosecutor, you said that Amir had said that he assumed that it was

7 Kajin.

8 A. What I said was, I said that he said that he assumed it was Kajin

9 because he couldn't see him. He had been beaten up, and I don't think

10 that he saw his face at all. But today he is almost certain that it was

11 Kajin who had arrived, but he couldn't be more specific.

12 Q. How do you know that today he is fairly certain that it was Kajin?

13 A. Because he's a neighbour of mine, and whenever we recollect these

14 events, he always said that when he was being beaten, Kajin had come by.

15 Q. Did he tell you this before the beginning of this trial?

16 A. No, no. I think he told it to me maybe a day or two after it

17 happened. That is when he told this to me, and this is what I remembered.

18 Q. So why did you yesterday say that Amir Kararic said that he

19 assumed when now you say --

20 A. I said that I thought that he -- that I assumed that he was -- and

21 in his words, he said that he was sure, and I was saying what he told me.

22 Q. When you gave your statement to AID, you said, "Fortunately, Damir

23 Dosen, called Kajin, arrived and rescued these men from certain death"?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It would seem from that that these are your words and this is what

1 you said.

2 A. Yes. These are my words, but on the basis of testimony of Amir

3 Kararic, and I also believe that he came by because it's -- the beatings

4 stopped, and I don't think that it would have stopped had he not arrived.

5 Q. So can we say that this was -- this is your assumption?

6 A. No, I don't think it is an assumption. Amir told me that he had

7 come by.

8 Q. So personally, you had neither seen or heard any of that?

9 A. I don't know how I was in a position to hear it. I heard

10 somebody, I heard some yelling, but I could not recognise the voice. But

11 when Amir later on regained consciousness a little bit and composed

12 himself, he said that Kajin had come by. And this is also what Josip had

13 said.

14 Q. Why didn't you mention that to the investigators of the Tribunal

15 when you were giving a statement?

16 A. Sir, whenever you talk about the events in the camp, different

17 memories come up so you can never recall the same thing. There were so

18 many things, and much of that will never be fully recollected and fully

19 described, so there are always some variants.

20 Q. Very well. This beating by Duca Knezevic, can you tell me

21 approximately how long it lasted?

22 A. I said yesterday that I wouldn't be able to say exactly how long,

23 but because of all the screams and moans, it seemed to us to be an

24 eternity. Nobody among us had watches to be able to keep the time.

25 Q. I'm asking you, because in your statement to AID you said that it

1 went on for 45 minutes.

2 A. As I said, to us it seemed a very long time. He beat them quite a

3 long time, because it first started in the room itself. He first hit

4 Amir's father and then he took them out. And I said that approximately it

5 went on for 45 minutes, but it could have been less or more. As I said,

6 we were quite scared and it was -- we were not able to keep up the exact

7 time.

8 Q. How did they return to the room?

9 A. I don't know. This was in front of hall 3, the door was open, and

10 they just fell among us, and we carried them to their places. We were --

11 they were badly beaten.

12 Q. Did you help them in any way other in addition to carrying them?

13 A. Yes. We used water to put on their wounds as compresses, so --

14 and also to wash their wounds.

15 Q. When you mentioned the Banovic brothers, can you tell us their

16 names?

17 A. Nenad and Predrag Banovic.

18 Q. Could you describe the Banovic brothers? How did they look like?

19 JUDGE MAY: Do we need this now? We've been hearing evidence for

20 several weeks, during which the Banovics' name has appeared very

21 frequently. Is it really going to assist us to have a description?

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am -- what I'm trying

23 to do is to point discrepancies in his descriptions of incidents involving

24 the Banovic brothers. So I would like to check his recollection.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. But please be as quick as you can.

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1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Do you remember my question?

3 A. They were different. They were shortish, and one had a longer

4 hair and the other one did not have longer hair. One of them we called

5 Cupo.

6 Q. And who was Cupo, Predrag or Nenad?

7 A. I believe it was Predrag.

8 Q. Was it conspicuous, the difference of the hair length?

9 A. Cupo stood out more. He took out his anger on us much more than

10 his brother, but Cupo was quite -- he was more ...

11 Q. In the statement you gave to the Tribunal investigator on the 24th

12 of August last year, you said, "I was not able to distinguish between

13 them. One of their -- one of them was called Predrag and had long, dark

14 hair, and the other one" --

15 A. I said I was not sure whether he was Predrag or Nenad.

16 Q. Also in the same statement, you did not give the other brother's

17 name, just said that his nickname was Bani. You said that he was not so

18 bad as Nenad. "I did not see Bani as often." Which is correct?

19 A. As I said, we saw Cupo quite often and the other one was less

20 strict to us, was less bad to us. Cupo was more so.

21 Q. Also in your examination-in-chief, you said that the Banovics were

22 in Kajin's shift. If you know that they were in Kajin's shift, do you

23 know since when?

24 A. What do you mean "since when"?

25 Q. When did they join the shift after you arrived at Keraterm?

1 A. I don't know that.

2 Q. Do you know whether they were always in Kajin's shift?

3 A. From what I knew about shifts, because at first we did not know

4 who was who and who was what, it is possible that the shifts were

5 different. I don't know. But from what I know, they were in Kajin's

6 shift.

7 Q. Can we agree that you're not quite certain?

8 A. What do you mean I'm not quite certain?

9 Q. That they were always in Kajin's shift or that at certain point

10 they switched from another shift to Kajin's shift?

11 A. As I said, from what I know, while I was there, they were in that

12 shift, but in the first few days, they may have been in another shift, but

13 later on, they were in Kajin's shift.

14 Q. I'm asking you this because, again, to the investigators, you

15 said, both in 1998 and in 2000, in your statement, you never mentioned

16 that they were in Kajin's shift.

17 A. I don't know whether I mentioned it or not. I'm not sure whether

18 the question had been asked of me like it is now.

19 Q. Why did you then, in 1998, you told the investigators in your

20 statement that you knew Duca, Zigic and the Banovic brothers, they were

21 frequent visitors to the camp and they came to beat up inmates? Were they

22 then guards or visitors?

23 A. Duca and Zigic were visitors, and the Banovics were guards.

24 Q. Then why this discrepancy in today's testimony and previous

25 statement?

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Yesterday, during the examination-in-chief, you said that after

3 you arrived at Keraterm on 14 June, the same evening, Cupo locked up Room

4 3 where you were placed.

5 A. Cupo was at the door when the door was locked up.

6 Q. And the next day, the 15th of June, did the Banovics beat any

7 inmates at Keraterm?

8 A. I don't recall. I don't know if it was the next morning, but they

9 beat frequently. I don't know if they beat the next morning, because on

10 that day, we were all in. We were not allowed to come out.

11 Q. The person who was standing there while you were being locked up,

12 was that Predrag or Nenad?

13 A. It was Cupo.

14 Q. And what name was that?

15 A. We all called him Cupo. He was Cupo. It was enough for us to see

16 that hair and face.

17 Q. I'm asking you this because my impression is that you don't know

18 which of the two brothers was Cupo and that you distinguish them by long

19 hair.

20 A. As I said, I believe it is Predrag, but I'm not certain. I'm not

21 certain that it is Cupo. I only know that he is a Banovic.

22 Q. During your examination-in-chief, you also said that Cupo on one

23 occasion told you to load up Jasmin the Albanian's body in the hearse. Is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You also said that that was Nenad, called Cupo.

2 A. Sir, again, I cannot tell you precisely the names. They were

3 twins, Nenad and Predrag. And Cupo had longer hair, the other one had

4 short hair. I did not know their names. The inmates learned their names.

5 Q. Yes, this is what you said to the AID statement in 1999, but in

6 the 1998 statement you said that, "Predrag Banovic called me personally

7 and two other inmates and ordered us to load up the body." In the same

8 statement you say, "Predrag said with a curse, with an expletive, that a

9 coffin is custom-made for him," and then he asked you and the other

10 inmates whether you knew him. How do you explain this discrepancy?

11 A. Again, without saying that I'm certain, I say that he is Predrag.

12 I was going on my assumption that his name was Predrag.

13 Q. Do we agree that both statements after you -- they were read back

14 to you, that you signed both of them even though there is, there is a

15 discrepancy in regard of the names?

16 A. There is a discrepancy in regard of the names but not persons.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's 1.00. It's time for the break.

18 Witness P, we're going to take a break. We'll resume at 2.30.

19 During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody,

20 including the members of the Prosecution team.

21 We are adjourned.

22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic?

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness P, you were explaining how bodies were carried away, and

5 you told us that they were taken away in a hearse. Could you describe

6 that vehicle more closely?

7 A. Some bodies were taken away in a hearse which was a black and

8 long, like a caravan, such as one could see in front of -- standing in

9 front -- parked in front of the hospital before the war.

10 Q. Could we say that it is a passenger vehicle with an elongated,

11 with an extended body?

12 A. Yes, a bit larger.

13 Q. Is that vehicle any different from a vehicle which we usually call

14 vans?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you spoke about the Albanian called Jasmin, could you tell us

17 all that you know about him?

18 A. Well, Jasmin I know as a waiter from Zvijezdas pastry shop. And

19 what else? I know that he was the owner's son.

20 Q. And do you know what the owner's name was?

21 A. His father, you mean?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. I don't.

24 Q. In your statement to the AID in September of 1998, you say, killed

25 Jasmin Ibrahimi, the son of Sabidin. So where did you get that

1 information from?

2 A. In the book of the missing.

3 Q. And who then looked for it? How did you come by that

4 information?

5 A. Well, in our place, in Sanski Most, one can buy this book of the

6 missing anywhere.

7 Q. And when did you buy that?

8 A. No, it wasn't me who bought it. My cousin bought it.

9 Q. And did you then -- did you see this other information on the

10 basis of the name Jasmin alone?

11 A. No, no. There is his photograph too and everything in that book.

12 That book, I -- almost all the names in that book are accompanied by

13 photographs and all the other information, all the information that the

14 authors could come by.

15 Q. And Zijad -- did Zijad Ibric have this book with him when he took

16 your statement?

17 A. I did not see it.

18 Q. And do you know what Emsud Bahonjic's father is called?

19 A. Safet Bahonjic.

20 Q. In your statement to the investigators in September 1992, you said

21 Zigic would enter rooms and beat people picked at random. Jasmin the

22 Albanian, owner of a pastry shop, was beaten to death, and you and two

23 others took the body to the hearse. Did Zigic take part in this beating?

24 A. I do not know if he took part in the beating of Jasmin. But he

25 did come into our hall and he did beat there.

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1 Q. And do you know who was that, who was it that beat Jasmin?

2 A. Well, I did not see it with my own eyes, but people in number 4

3 said that it was brothers Banovic, Cupo, who beat him.

4 Q. Could you be more specific and tell us when did that happen?

5 A. What do you mean, when?

6 Q. Well, could you relate it to a date or as against your arrival?

7 When could that be?

8 A. Well, this could have happened sometime in July. At the time when

9 I was in hall 3 still, so more precisely perhaps early July. I cannot

10 really relate it to any date.

11 Q. One of the witnesses before this court said that on the 21st --

12 24th of June in the evening, the Albanian Jasmin was called out at the

13 same time with Drago Tokmadzic and that he was beaten then.

14 A. Possibly. I'm telling you I did not remember the dates. I know

15 it was early July or perhaps in June still. I can't give you the date.

16 Q. And do you know when was Jasmin brought to Keraterm?

17 A. No. Jasmin was taken to Room 4.

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

8 [Private session]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we are back in open session.

20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Whilst you were in Room 2, did any of the commanders come to take

22 cigarettes from prisoners?

23 A. I don't know where -- how could prisoners in the camp have any

24 cigarettes on them?

25 Q. And whilst you were in Room 2, was there any mention of horses and

1 riders, and did anything happen in that regard?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. The morning after, the morning after the incident which happened

4 in that night of 24, 25th July, could you come out of the room?

5 A. Nobody could come out of the room.

6 Q. Were you ever in a position to cast a look towards the outside

7 part of the room, that is, the Keraterm yard?

8 A. Well, yes. One could see something in front of the door. As I

9 told you, the door was open, that is, there was this -- there were those

10 bars on the door, and -- but that day we had to relieve ourselves over

11 that barrel so that we all practically had opportunity to come near the

12 door that day.

13 Q. And did you notice something out of the ordinary that morning as

14 against other days?

15 A. Indeed.

16 Q. Were there more unknown persons in the Keraterm compound?

17 A. Well, quite a number. Well, I don't know what figure to put it,

18 quite a number. But there were soldiers and lots of people so that we

19 could not really stay at the door for any stretch of time.

20 Q. Were there some unknown persons in police uniforms?

21 A. There were.

22 Q. Did you use -- did you see those men in the room which we call the

23 weigh bridge?

24 A. We saw those people over there and in the other place where the

25 massacre had taken place and ...

1 Q. Did you know anyone of those?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you perhaps see something being taped?

4 A. I did not see that.

5 Q. The first day after you came to Keraterm, do you know that that

6 morning, on the 15th of June, a medical checkup had been organised and

7 that some prisoners went to the hospital?

8 A. No, not that morning.

9 Q. You're not aware of that or are you affirming that it did not

10 happen?

11 A. I have no knowledge that there was anyone.

12 Q. But according to you, was anyone ever extended medical assistance

13 either in the hospital or a doctor coming to Keraterm?

14 A. A Kobas came without an arm, and he brought us some powder to

15 fight the lice, and somebody else came too. There was somebody who went

16 to the hospital but I don't know when. Saban Elezovic, whose arm was

17 broken, I know that he went to the hospital.

18 Q. When you spoke about Kajin and said that you knew him, that you

19 had known him for five or six years before the war, could you tell us

20 something more specific? How and where did you meet him and how did you

21 know him?

22 A. Kajin, I don't know if he will own up to that, but I know that he

23 patronised a discotheque in Trnopolje and his girlfriend was Josipa

24 Pavlovic.

25 Q. Which means that you used to see him around Trnopolje?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did he have any representatives in Trnopolje?

3 A. I wouldn't know that, but we young people, we always patronised

4 this discotheque, and he came there too.

5 Q. And when you exchanged greetings, when you said hello to him in

6 Keraterm, as you told us, did he respond?

7 A. Well, he was talking to his then friend, perhaps somebody who is

8 still his friend, I don't know, Mujo Micic. They were talking and I

9 approached and the only thing was, "Well, how are you doing?" And that

10 was that. It was only in passing. We did not talk. We didn't have any

11 conversation or anything.

12 Q. Will you tell us if you know if Kajin had a brother.

13 A. No.

14 Q. And in conclusion, I'd like to ask you something about the shift

15 organisation in Keraterm. You said that the shifts were from around 6.00

16 in the morning until about 6.00 in the afternoon; is that correct?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. And from the time that you came to the Keraterm, after you came to

19 Keraterm, were there any changes in the shift organisation? Were there

20 any shifts that would be on for 24 hours?

21 A. I did not notice anything like that.

22 Q. According to you, was Kondic one of the shift leaders while you

23 were in Keraterm?

24 A. Perhaps he was. I know a shift, that there was something changed,

25 that some change did take place but what change, and whom did it affect, I

1 don't know.

2 Q. Could you tell us how was it that you learnt that some individuals

3 were shift leaders? Could you give us the names of those people?

4 A. Well, there was this Burza and other people who knew those men.

5 It was they who said that they knew the man, they said that Feha also --

6 one said that Feha knew quite a number of them.

7 Q. During your stay in Keraterm, did you talk with guards on

8 different shifts?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Then how do you explain the fact that in your statement to the

11 investigators of the Tribunal of August 2000, you say, "As for Kolundzija

12 nicknamed Kole, I knew that he was a shift leader. All guards referred to

13 him as the shift leader"? And you use an identical sentence about Damir

14 Dosen nicknamed Kajin. "I knew that he was a shift leader. All guards

15 refer to him as a shift leader."

16 A. It was the guards who said that they were shift leaders, but those

17 guards and all the Bosniaks in front, they communicated and they talked on

18 various occasions and Feha and others like him, they would say that guards

19 had said that they were shift leaders.

20 Q. But did you ever hear the guards -- did you ever hear the guards

21 say who was -- who were shift commanders?

22 A. Well, you could, perhaps if you're on your way to the WC, so you

23 could overhear one of them say, "Ask commander Kole" or, "Ask commander

24 Kajin." We could overhear it from the guards when we would pass by them.

25 As if they were looking for something or needed something, that is the

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1 conclusion that one could make.

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I have no

3 further questions.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic. Sir Ivan?

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence.

6 Q. Witness P, I want to ask just a few questions of you on behalf of

7 Mr. Kolundzija.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Sir Ivan, your microphone.

9 MR. LAWRENCE:

10 Q. Firstly with regard to the shifts, you've just told Mr. Rodic that

11 you didn't notice whether there were shifts that lasted 24 hours but you

12 did notice that something changed in a shift, right? Is that right?

13 A. No, I didn't see them be on duty for 24 hours.

14 MR. LAWRENCE: Sorry, I didn't hear the reply. Sorry, I was on a

15 different wavelength. Can I have ...

16 Q. Yes, but what I'm going to suggest to you, and see if you can

17 help, is that Kole became a shift commander after you had been on the camp

18 for about two weeks. Might that have been the change in the shift that

19 you remember?

20 A. I don't know if after two weeks. I don't know. I know there was

21 talk. Feha, for instance, spoke about Kondic and then he spoke about

22 Fustar, so perhaps I am confusing this and perhaps this is what I mean.

23 Perhaps it registered as a change in shifts between Fustar and Kondic.

24 Q. Can I put to you what I suggest the situation was and see if you

25 can help by agreeing? For the first two weeks that you were on camp,

1 there were two 24-hour shifts, that is, the shifts were on for 24 hours

2 and off for 24 hours. Then after about two weeks, the system moved into

3 three shifts, 12 hours on, 24 hours off, 12 hours on, 24 hours off. Is

4 your recollection inconsistent with any of that?

5 A. I do not remember. I cannot really say whether it was so. As far

6 as I can remember, they were on for 12 hours at a time, but it could be

7 that they were on for 24 hours because in the early days, we were so

8 stressed and the pressure, both mental and physical, was so tremendous

9 that in the beginning one simply did not register, did not try to find out

10 anything.

11 Q. Thank you for that. So it may have been so as I suggested, as far

12 as you know, and what I also suggest is that Kole only became a shift

13 leader when the shifts moved from 24 hours to 12 hours. That would be

14 about two weeks after you came to the camp. Might that be possible, as

15 far as you can recollect?

16 A. I cannot really answer this in the affirmative.

17 Q. All right, thank you. The Banovics: In your seven and a half

18 weeks at Keraterm, did you ever see the Banovics on Kole's shift?

19 A. I did not see them.

20 Q. Thank you. Did you ever see Kole beating any prisoner?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you ever see Kole present when any prisoner was beaten?

23 A. No, never.

24 Q. Is it right that the guards on his shift were not allowed to beat

25 prisoners?

1 A. I don't know if they were allowed or not, but they did not beat.

2 Q. Thank you for the last part of your answer. Can I just hold you

3 for a moment at the earlier part of your answer. Will you accept from me

4 that on the 18th of November of 1998 when you made your signed -- you made

5 your statement on that day --

6 MR. LAWRENCE: I don't think the Court has a copy of it. That's

7 the one number -- the last three numbers are 539, but it's the interview

8 date of the 18th of November, 1998. If the Court doesn't have a copy,

9 perhaps it doesn't matter because there's only matter I want to refer to

10 on it.

11 Q. I will be stopped by the Prosecutor if I'm wrong, Witness P, all

12 right? Will you accept from me that you said, "Third shift commander was

13 Kole who was from Prijedor who was one of the normal people who allowed

14 the prisoners to wash their faces, go to lunch, and go outside"; is that

15 true?

16 A. It is.

17 Q. And you then went on to say, "Kole didn't let his shift guards

18 beat people." Now, was that true?

19 A. I must repeat, whether he let them or did not let them, or is it

20 that they did not dare, the truth is that they did not harm us during his

21 shifts.

22 Q. I'm grateful for that, but I just want to see if you'll go a

23 little bit further because in the statement that you made sometime ago

24 now, on the 18th of November --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. My friend predicted that I would stop when --

2 I want to point out that he's now reading from investigator's notes which

3 specifically say not a signed statement, not adopted by the witness. So

4 if he refers to it as a statement, it's more notes of a conversation. I

5 accept that. And we do have copies if Your Honours want to see those.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think we need to see them.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Fine, thank you.

8 MR. LAWRENCE: But as I understand it, and my learned friend

9 Mr. Greaves has suggested that this is the position, these notes have been

10 adopted as statements by these witnesses if they've been served in this

11 way. It's true it's not a signed statement, but it is a statement of this

12 witness, obviously which somebody else wrote down and not him. And in my

13 respectful submission, I must be allowed to put to him not that it was a

14 signed statement, of course, I couldn't do that, but that it was

15 nevertheless a statement which he made to an investigator which the

16 investigator recorded.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think as long as the status is perfectly clear,

18 then it would be a matter for the Chamber to determine what weight we

19 attach to it.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: May I just clarify something? Although I'm looking

21 at the document and I've indicated what it says, it is true that this

22 witness was shown these documents, and I believe all of them, at the

23 subsequent time when that last statement was taken, and may have therefore

24 subsequently adopted it in the taking of that subsequent statement on the

25 24th of August 2000.

1 MR. GREAVES: I think that in fact is the evidence in this case.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: So my objection disappears as a result. I was

4 looking at the document itself, which said it was not adopted by the

5 witness, but when you follow through the progression, I believe that the

6 witness did have that statement referred to and did adopt it

7 subsequently. So I withdraw my comment.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that's admirable, Mr. Prosecutor. Let us

9 proceed.

10 MR. LAWRENCE: We do -- actually I do have --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MR. LAWRENCE: -- for the benefit of the Court, the witness

13 statement dated the 24th of August, where at paragraph 2, or 3, it says,

14 "In addition to these statements, I recall being spoken to by

15 investigator Alisdair Putt of the Office of the Prosecutor on the 18th of

16 November 1998. I have had notes made by him read back to me by Alma

17 Muhic. I found these notes to be accurate," except for exceptions that

18 don't arise. Thank you. And I'm grateful to my learned friend for his

19 fair intervention.

20 Q. Anyway, I'm sorry to have bothered you with that, Witness P. The

21 point is, do you accept now, as you accepted when you made one of your

22 statements, that you did say on the 18th of November to an interviewer

23 called Alisdair Putt, "Kole did not let his shift guards --"

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you stop? Witness P, are you okay? Are

25 you all right?

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. LAWRENCE:

3 Q. You were concentrating, were you?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see, okay. Yes.

5 MR. LAWRENCE:

6 Q. Can I repeat that again? Will you accept that on the 18th of

7 November of 1998, you did say to the Prosecutor's investigator, Alisdair

8 Putt, "Kole did not let his shift guards beat people"? Do you accept that

9 you said that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. And would it have been true when you said it?

12 A. Again, I repeat, in Kole's shift, people were not beaten and they

13 were not bothered. And as for the reason, whether he did not allow it or

14 the others were reasonable, that is something that he knows best.

15 Q. Can I just next come to that part of your evidence where you spoke

16 about the locking of the door of Room 3 when Fustar's shift was on and how

17 you couldn't breathe and how Kole, when he came on, opened the door, and

18 you said Sikirica came back and his reaction on seeing hall 3 prisoners

19 out of the room was to ask who had let the inmates out. Remember that

20 part? Have I put you in the picture of that episode?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Kole at that stage was a shift leader, was he not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. He wasn't the camp commander, was he?

25 A. No.

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1 Q. He was below the camp commander?

2 A. I don't know. I never had their documents to know who was who,

3 but I know that he was one of the shift leaders.

4 Q. Yes, and your impression was that the shift leaders were below a

5 camp commander?

6 A. By all factors, that is what it should be.

7 Q. Yes. Of course. And so when Sikirica came back and said, "Who

8 has let these people out?" or words to that effect, and Kole said, "I

9 did," or words to that effect, "and they are staying out, I am not locking

10 the door," which is the picture I think you are painting of the episode;

11 is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. He appeared to be going against the orders of a superior.

14 A. At that point, that is how it looked. That is how it appeared.

15 And that is how it played out.

16 Q. Yes. Thank you. What he was doing was going against the orders

17 of a superior in order to let you breathe and keep the door open.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. He was showing plight -- concern for the plight of the inmates in

20 Room 3?

21 A. I don't know whether he was concerned, but he came and unlocked

22 the door, but I don't know what reason for that he had, whether it was his

23 concern, but later on, or maybe later on, he knew why.

24 Q. It wasn't for his gain, was it? Because he was disobeying the

25 order of a superior and might be punished.

1 A. He knew what could have happened and he knew what he did.

2 Q. Yes, but is the answer to the question, please, Witness P, yes?

3 A. Will you please repeat it once more?

4 Q. He wasn't doing it for his own benefit. He was going against the

5 orders of a superior and might well have been punished.

6 A. Perhaps he might have.

7 Q. He was being brave?

8 A. At that moment, yes.

9 Q. In the interests of the inmates of Room 3?

10 A. At -- it happened that at that point, it was to the benefit of the

11 inmates.

12 Q. Thank you. Can I move on now to the Room 3 massacre. And in case

13 there is any confusion about what you've been saying, I want to take this

14 as carefully as you can in recollection, all right, Witness P?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you were first asked about this, by Mr. Ryneveld, the

17 Prosecutor on your right, you said, "I heard him say, 'Don't fire at halls

18 2 and 3. Don't fire at people.'"

19 A. I did not hear him say "2 and 3." I heard him say, "Don't shoot

20 at halls 1, 2 and 4." And he was yelling, "Don't come out. Don't come

21 out. Stay inside." I don't know who he was referring to.

22 Q. All right. At that moment, which hall was being fired at by the

23 machine-gun?

24 A. Hall 3.

25 Q. 3. And he was telling the people in 3, "Don't come out and be

1 shot," in effect?

2 A. I don't know whether he was saying it to them. The hall 3 was not

3 mentioned at that moment. Nobody was mentioning hall 3.

4 Q. I understand you're saying that, but please bear with me. At the

5 moment he shouted out, "Don't come out through the door," it was Room 3

6 that was being fired at; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So he was shouting to the people in Room 3, "Don't come out or

9 you'll be shot"?

10 A. He probably was. But again, I am saying that he mentioned 1, 2,

11 and 4, and I heard him say, "Don't come out, don't come out," and those

12 voices were being heard. But because the shooting was very loud, we

13 couldn't hear all the voices, and we were all concerned for our own lives.

14 Q. Do you think it is possible or probable that what he was saying,

15 in effect, was, "You're already shooting at 3. Don't, for goodness' sake,

16 shoot at the other rooms, 1, 2, and 4"?

17 A. I cannot confirm that. I don't know his state of mind at the

18 moment.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues]... but may that have been what

20 was happening?

21 A. I don't know whether -- I don't know what could have happened

22 after -- over 140 people died. I don't know what else could have

23 happened.

24 Q. I know that. But is it consistent with the way things are

25 happening that he might have been meaning that?

1 A. Perhaps he was thinking that. I cannot either confirm or refute

2 his way of thinking at the time.

3 Q. But what happened was not inconsistent with him saying that, was

4 it, or meaning that?

5 A. Had he said something, there wouldn't have been so many dead. It

6 could have been prevented. The proof is all these dead. It says

7 something.

8 Q. It might have been prevented if he had any control over the

9 soldiers who were shooting, but you don't know that he had any control as

10 a shift commander over the soldiers who were shooting, do you?

11 A. I don't know if he had control over those men. He should know

12 that well.

13 Q. And you're not suggesting, are you, that he was saying it's all

14 right to kill all those people in Room 3, but it's not all right to kill

15 people in another room? You're not suggesting that, are you?

16 A. No. I did not hear that, and I cannot say what I did not hear.

17 Q. Can I just, for the purposes of completeness and accuracy, bearing

18 in mind that you're now saying today that he mentioned specific rooms,

19 what you said about this in the past, Witness P. Would you help me,

20 please. In your statement on the 24th of September of 1998, which was

21 signed by you and taken by Mr. Ibric --

22 MR. LAWRENCE: And this is at the bottom of page 3 because I think

23 the Court has this before them. D11/1, I'm told, is the reference.

24 Q. Did you say this: "The inmates in this hall were fired on during

25 Kole's shift and we heard Kole cursing the Serbs' mothers and telling them

1 not to shoot at the people"? Do you agree you said that to the

2 investigator?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. And ordering the inmates not to go out of the door.

5 A. And now I said he was yelling, "Don't come out, don't come out."

6 I don't know if he was yelling to the inmates because there were screams

7 and moans, his voice, shots, all this was ringing out.

8 Q. Of course, you don't 'cause you were in a very bad position

9 yourself. But does -- would you accept that you also said in that

10 statement, "Bursts of fire aimed at the hall were coming from a parapet to

11 the right of the entrance gate"? Did you mean that the hall was Room 3?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So when you said, "We heard Kole cursing the Serbs' mothers and

14 telling them not to shoot at the people," the bursts of fire were then

15 being aimed at Room 3?

16 A. Kole was cursing and mentioning mothers. I don't know to whom he

17 was addressing that, and we could hear shots.

18 Q. You said in your statement that bursts of fire were being aimed at

19 the hall, which you've just told us was Room 3. Let me read the whole two

20 sentences together. "I think that on the night of the 25th, 26th of July,

21 1992, the inmates in this hall were fired on during Kole's shift, and we

22 heard Kole cursing the Serbs' mothers and telling them not to shoot at the

23 people and ordering the inmates not to go out the door. Bursts of fire

24 aimed at the hall were coming from a parapet to the right."

25 And my question, and I'm sure you want to be fair and truthful

1 about this, Witness P, is, you were saying that he was specifically

2 telling the soldiers, while he was cursing their mothers, not to shoot at

3 Room 3 where the bursts of fire were then being directed.

4 A. He was yelling, "Don't shoot at the people."

5 Q. While Room 3 was being shot at.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. And just to finalise that, when you were interviewed

8 on the 22nd of April, that is, a few weeks -- couple of weeks ago here, I

9 think here in The Hague, and a summary was made of what you said, page 4

10 of the summary, at paragraph 21, did you tell the gentleman proofing you

11 that you heard Kole's voice saying not to shoot and ordering the inmates

12 not to leave the room?

13 A. He was shouting to the inmates, "Don't come out the door."

14 Q. And the door you're referring to was Room 3?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. My last question: After the Room 3 massacre, is it right that

17 Kole stopped coming to the camp?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Perhaps I ought just to put this to you - and I know it's surplus,

20 but my learned co-counsel quite rightly points out that perhaps I should

21 say it - when you on the 24th of August, that was last year, was seen yet

22 again and made the statement, which on this case you signed at the bottom

23 of page 2, did you say, a few lines up, the person was saying, quotes,

24 it's in quotes, "Don't shoot at the people," "Don't leave, stay in the

25 room." Yes?

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1 A. Yes.

2 MR. LAWRENCE: I'm not sure whether I got an answer to the

3 question I asked about whether he stopped coming after the massacre.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

5 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you very much. That's all the questions I

6 have to ask. And would the Tribunal mind very much if I slipped away in a

7 moment or two?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that would be -- that will be okay. Thank

9 you very much, Sir Ivan.

10 Mr. Ryneveld?

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Nothing arising. Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness P, that concludes your testimony, and you

13 are released.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, my learned co-counsel will take the

16 evidence of the next witness. Might I be excused to try to start the

17 summary so that I can get the summary for the witness on Monday to my

18 friends before the weekend?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly?

23 MS. BALY: Your Honours, I have an application to make, a brief

24 application, on behalf of the next witness, and it is an application for

25 protective measures, being a pseudonym and facial distortion. May we move

1 into closed session so I can make the application?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, closed session, yes.

3 [Private session]

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1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 MS. BALY:

4 Q. Now, Witness, what ethnicity are you?

5 A. I am a Muslim by nationality.

6 MR. GREAVES: [Previous translation continued] ... private session

7 as to what his address was has not been recorded on the transcription. It

8 ought to be. It may be important. What we have got is the interpreters,

9 quite helpfully, if I may say so, pointing out that he was giving his

10 whole address but we were in fact still in private session. I'd ask that

11 that be corrected.

12 MS. BALY: Given his situation, I'd ask that we return to closed

13 session if my friend wants me to pursue his address.

14 MR. GREAVES: I think he actually gave his address and -- as I

15 heard it, and it was overridden by the interpreter. So he has in fact

16 actually given the answer.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we will just return to private session just

18 for that.

19 [Private session]

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1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 MS. BALY:

4 Q. Now, at that time, at the time you were arrested on the 23rd of

5 July, 1992, were you a civilian person or were you involved somehow in

6 some capacity with the military?

7 A. I was a civilian, absolutely.

8 Q. Now, I want to take you now to your arrival at the Keraterm camp.

9 Just tell us briefly, please, what happened upon your arrival at the

10 camp.

11 A. When we arrived at the camp, we were getting off the bus and they

12 beat us like cattle. No one could get off the bus without being beaten at

13 the same time.

14 Q. Who was it that beat you?

15 A. Serbs beat us, some known, some unknown.

16 Q. How were these persons dressed?

17 A. Some had police uniforms, some had military uniforms.

18 Q. And what was it that these men beat you with?

19 A. They beat us with their feet, with batons, rifles, rifle butts,

20 anything, anything that they could lay their hands on.

21 Q. Witness Q, were you injured during this beating?

22 A. Yes, I was injured.

23 Q. What was the nature of the injury that you sustained?

24 A. Well, like this: Look at my forehead. You can see the scar of a

25 cable, a cable that had been cut, an electric cable which was cut and

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1 sharp edge, and this happened during my stay at the camp.

2 Q. Did this happen at the time when you arrived? You received this

3 injury when you arrived and as you were getting off the bus?

4 A. I was -- I sustained this injury in hall number 3.

5 Q. At the time that you were beaten when you arrived and when you

6 were getting off the bus, did you receive any injury at that time?

7 A. Yes. I was scratched. I was bleeding because they were kicking

8 us with their feet and with the rifle in the nose.

9 Q. Now, Witness Q, after you'd got off the bus, where were you taken

10 to? Whereabouts in the camp were you taken?

11 A. They took us to Room 3. They took me to Room 3.

12 Q. At that time in Room 3, that is, upon your arrival in Room 3, how

13 many prisoners would you say, just an estimate, please, were in the room,

14 were being housed in Room 3?

15 A. The room was almost full to capacity.

16 Q. Are you able to say, Witness Q, how many prisoners were in the

17 room? Just an estimate, please.

18 A. Roughly up to -- I never counted, but I'd say up to 300.

19 Q. How many prisoners arrived at the same time that you arrived?

20 A. We were -- well, we didn't count, but we were about 50 or 60 on

21 that bus.

22 Q. Were all of the newcomers, that is, all of the 50, 60 on the bus

23 taken to Room 3, or were some taken to other rooms?

24 A. I did not see that, but the room -- that day the room was already

25 full up. It was overflowing with people.

1 Q. Among the prisoners in Room 3, were there any men who you would

2 consider were under the age of 18?

3 A. Yes, there were some. I'd say about 20 of them. I didn't really

4 count them, but there were about 20 minors.

5 Q. Whereabouts in Room 3 were those minors placed, or were those

6 minors housed in Room 3? Whereabouts in the room?

7 A. They were sitting next to the door, that is, there is the front

8 door and then next to the wall, and they were all lined up along the wall.

9 Q. Witness Q, do you know how they came to be lined up against the

10 wall?

11 A. I'd have to show it to you on a drawing. I can't do it like

12 this. Would that be possible?

13 Q. Witness, let me ask you a different question. Why were those

14 young men at the front of Room 3? Why were they placed there, do you

15 know?

16 A. A guard said that they should be separated out and put there.

17 Q. Now, Witness Q, moving on now to the following night, that is, the

18 night of the 24th of July, 1992, were the prisoners in Room 3 given some

19 water to drink?

20 A. They were given water, but I think that that water had some

21 powder, had been poisoned so that we began to cry and contracted diarrhea,

22 something like that.

23 Q. Did you yourself, Witness Q, drink that water?

24 A. I didn't drink that water, but judging by the reaction of those

25 people -- and I couldn't even gain access to that water because there were

1 just too many people there.

2 Q. Who was it that gave the water to the prisoners?

3 A. I couldn't really see who it was who had brought water to the

4 room.

5 Q. You saw prisoners, other prisoners, drinking the water, and you

6 saw that it had some kind of effect on those prisoners; is that correct?

7 Witness Q, you'll need to answer the question orally.

8 A. Yes. I mean, some people drank that water, but we used that water

9 rather to soak our T-shirts or shirts and used them on the people who had

10 been beaten, put them as compresses on their bodies.

11 Q. Following the taking of that water by some of the prisoners, did

12 the guards do anything to the prisoners inside of Room 3?

13 A. Why, of course. They beat -- they would bring some into the room

14 and take some others from the room.

15 Q. Concentrating, Witness Q, on the night of the massacre, that is,

16 24th of July, 1992, what happened to the prisoners in Room 3?

17 A. My first night, that is, my night, how I experienced that, it was

18 terrible, but that ill-famed night began like this: My neighbour told me

19 that allegedly the shift commander should be the man called Kole, and that

20 we should not be afraid, that Kole was allegedly a good man. Around, I'd

21 say around 2300, they threw in a smoke bomb into our room and we were

22 suffocating, choking, because even without that smoke, the temperature was

23 very high. And there was only a small window that was open, and through

24 it they threw in that bomb. The elderly people all had suffocated even

25 before that bomb because they were just too weak and had been beaten up.

1 Sometime around midnight, I cannot be accurate because we had no

2 watches, a fierce gunfire started from the pista. They were firing both

3 from light and heavy weapons. At some point, I saw a man I had worked

4 with. The first one that I saw was the one who was dead. His spectacles

5 had fallen off and he was lying down dead. Then they wanted one of us to

6 come out to the pista and negotiate. But that was insane. For one of to

7 us come out, they'd finish him off right there and then. So nobody dared

8 go out.

9 Q. Pause there, please, Witness Q. You said they wanted one of you

10 to go out and negotiate. Just tell us who asked for one of you to come

11 out and what exactly was said to you.

12 A. Yes. One could hear a voice but I don't know who might it belong

13 to, and he wanted to negotiate with us so as to allegedly -- well, I don't

14 know what they wanted at that particular moment. I suppose somebody to

15 represent us so that they could execute him. That's what I think.

16 Q. You said that they wanted someone to negotiate. I want you to

17 tell the Court, please, what exactly that person said. What were the

18 exact words, doing the best you can, that were said?

19 A. Well, the exact words, to come to the door, and they would, I

20 guess, open, and then our representative, the man who would represent us,

21 that -- because, of course, we couldn't all go out.

22 Q. Now, Witness Q, when did this take place? Was it before, during

23 or after the firing?

24 A. There was a lull in the shooting so then there would be another

25 lull and then it would start again, I suppose so they could recharge or

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1 something.

2 Q. And did this incident involving the request for someone to come

3 and negotiate take place during the shooting, during a lull, before the

4 shooting, or when abouts?

5 A. During the lull.

6 Q. For how long in total did the shooting last?

7 A. Well, I had no watch but that shooting might have lasted for some

8 horrific 10 or 15 minutes.

9 Q. Now, Witness Q, that horrific 10 or 15 minutes, is that the total

10 shooting that took place that night or was that the shooting that took

11 place before the first lull?

12 A. Well, there would be this gunfire, then lull, then start again,

13 and it went on until the morning like that, with those breaks. I don't

14 know if you can imagine, it was the prohibited ammunition they were using,

15 the fragmentation ammunition.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, we think it's an appropriate time to

17 stop for the day.

18 MS. BALY: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness Q, we are going to adjourn until Monday

20 at 9.30 in the morning, so you will return on Monday, 9.30 in the

21 morning. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence

22 with anybody, including the members of the Prosecution team.

23 We are adjourned.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25 3.57 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday the 21st day

1 of May, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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