Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3747

1 Friday, 25 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

7 WITNESS: WITNESS V

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please sit.

12 Mr. Mundis.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'd ask the usher to show

14 the witness what has been marked as Exhibit 44, copies of which have been

15 provided this morning.

16 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for this witness will be Witness V.

17 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

18 Q. Witness, I would ask you to look at the document that you've just

19 been shown and to verify that your name and birth date are correctly

20 stated on that document.

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'd ask that that be admitted into

23 evidence as Exhibit 44.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

25 MR. MUNDIS:

Page 3748

1 Q. Witness V, can you please tell the Court the place where you were

2 born.

3 A. I was born [redacted].

4 Q. And did you grow up in the Prijedor opstina?

5 A. Yes, in the municipality of Prijedor but in the town of Kozarac.

6 Q. And Witness, what is your ethnic background?

7 A. Bosniak.

8 Q. Witness, did there come a time when you were arrested and

9 transported to the Keraterm camp?

10 A. Yes. This was on 31 May, in Prijedor, in Puharska section of

11 town.

12 Q. And what year was that, Witness?

13 A. 1992.

14 Q. Witness, at the time that you were arrested and transported to

15 Keraterm, were you a civilian or were you in the armed forces or

16 paramilitary forces of any kind?

17 A. Civilian.

18 Q. Witness, upon your arrival - without mentioning any names - upon

19 your arrival at Keraterm, were there any other members of your family at

20 Keraterm?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'd ask to go into closed session

23 briefly, please.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

25 [Private session]

Page 3749

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25 [Open session]

Page 3750

1 MR. MUNDIS:

2 Q. Witness, upon your arrival at Keraterm, were there any camp

3 personnel or guards at the camp that you knew from prior to the time you

4 were at Keraterm?

5 A. Yes. Brane Knezevic was there, a young man whom I had known from

6 before, and at that time, he was a member of the military police. There

7 were some other guards too.

8 Q. During the time that you were at Keraterm, did you become aware of

9 any camp hierarchy or personnel who may have been in charge of the camp?

10 A. Yes. The first day when we arrived, we were guarded by the

11 military police. The next day, some new guards arrived, of whom I knew

12 just a few by sight.

13 Q. Witness, did you know who the camp commander or shift commanders

14 were at Keraterm?

15 A. At that point, I did not know anything. I did not know who was a

16 camp commander or the guard commanders, but after a while, the word spread

17 around the camp who the camp commander was and who the shift guards, the

18 shift commanders.

19 Q. And can you tell the Court, please, who you were told held those

20 positions.

21 A. This was revealed gradually. Kajin was one shift commander, Kole

22 the other, and Fustar the third shift commander, and Sikirica was the

23 commander of the camp.

24 Q. With respect to the person you've identified as Kajin, did you

25 know this person from prior to the war?

Page 3751

1 A. Yes. I knew him from the town. I occasionally would see him in

2 the town.

3 Q. Did you socialise with him at all prior to the war?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you recall approximately for how long prior to the time you

6 were at Keraterm you had seen him in the town?

7 A. A month or two before, up to three months maximum.

8 Q. During the time that you were in Keraterm, did you see this person

9 that you knew as Kajin in Keraterm?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Approximately how often would you see him in Keraterm?

12 A. Every two or three days.

13 Q. And how long were you in the Keraterm camp?

14 A. I was there between [redacted] May and [redacted] August.

15 Q. Can you describe what this person that you know as Kajin looks

16 like or looked like at the time?

17 A. At that time, he was tall. He had brown hair. He kept his hair a

18 little longer in the back. He parted his hair on the side.

19 Q. Witness, do you think you would recognise the person that you knew

20 as Kajin if you were to see him today?

21 A. Of course.

22 Q. Witness, I would ask you to look around the courtroom, and if the

23 person that you know as Kajin is present, please indicate that to the

24 court.

25 A. Yes, he is present here.

Page 3752

1 Q. Can you describe for the Court where he is sitting.

2 A. He is sitting -- a guard is to his right, and a man wearing a suit

3 is sitting to his left.

4 Q. Can you please describe in which row he is sitting and the seat

5 number from left to right in that row.

6 A. He is sitting in the last row. He is fifth from the right and

7 second from the left, next to the guard.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'd ask the record to reflect that the

9 witness has properly identified the accused Damir Dosen.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

11 MR. MUNDIS:

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

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16 [redacted]

17 Q. Can you describe for us what he looked like when you first saw him

18 in the camp?

19 A. Emsud had blue rings under his eyes from the beatings, his nose

20 was broken, his lip was broken. He had no belt around his waist and he

21 had no laces on his shoes. And some other men also came with him, also

22 from Kozarac, whose last names were Mujkanovic and Jakupovic.

23 Q. Witness, prior to the war, what occupation did Emsud Bahonjic

24 have?

25 A. Emsud Bahonjic was a shopkeeper and he was also a member of the

Page 3753

1 reserve police force.

2 Q. Witness, do you know who brought Emsud Bahonjic to Keraterm?

3 A. He was brought to Keraterm by the military police from the

4 barracks, and the person who brought him to the camp itself was Zoran

5 Zigic, and he took him to Room 2.

6 Q. What happened to Emsud Bahonjic in the Keraterm camp?

7 A. Emsud was beaten daily. Sometimes he was beaten two or three

8 times a day. Sometimes he would not receive beatings. And after a while,

9 Emsud died from his injuries in the camp.

10 Q. Witness, how often did you see Emsud Bahonjic in the Keraterm

11 camp?

12 A. Sometimes I saw him three, four times a day, sometimes once a day,

13 sometimes not at all during the day.

14 Q. Do you know where in the Keraterm camp these beatings took place?

15 A. He was beaten mostly between Rooms 1 and 2. Occasionally there

16 was a yellow truck parked there.

17 Q. Was he beaten on the pista in front of those two rooms?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Witness, during the time that you were in Keraterm, did you see or

20 know an individual by the name of Car?

21 A. I met him, and on one occasion he was beaten alongside Emsud.

22 Zigic and Dusan Knezevic had come to the camp. They took the rounds out

23 of a machine-gun, they ordered Car to run around in a circle, and Emsud

24 was with him. Occasionally Emsud was ordered to jump on top of the truck

25 and then to jump off again. They demanded that he jump on his bottom,

Page 3754

1 freestyle, as they put it, and if he did not comply, he would be beaten

2 even harder. Half an hour later, they ordered Car to clean the

3 machine-gun. He did not know how to take it apart, so Emsud helped him

4 because Emsud used to be a machine-gun operator or machine-gunner in the

5 army.

6 Q. Now, Witness, let me just ask you to clarify that. When had Emsud

7 Bahonjic been in the army?

8 A. Emsud Bahonjic was born in 1962, so he went to the army when he

9 was 19 or 20, which would mean that he was in the army either in 1981,

10 1982, or 1983.

11 Q. At the time when the war started in Prijedor in 1992, was Emsud

12 Bahonjic still in the army?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Can you describe for the Court what happened to Car and Emsud

15 Bahonjic after they had dismantled this machine-gun?

16 A. After dismantling it, they cleaned it up and then again put it

17 back together. Then Zigic ordered Car to drop his pants and Emsud to

18 kneel next to him. And then they had to change positions, so Emsud had to

19 drop his pants and Car had to kneel in front of him. And after about an

20 hour, Car died in Room 2.

21 Q. Witness, did you see any incidents involving Car and Emsud

22 Bahonjic with respect to bottles?

23 A. Yes. Zigic and Duca were drinking. Often they would bring

24 bottles and they would throw them around the truck. These bottles were

25 broken, and they often ordered them to jump on top of these bottles.

Page 3755

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis, with regard to the evidence given by

2 the witness that Zigic ordered Car to drop his pants and Emsud to kneel

3 next to him and then they next changed positions, it may be unpleasant but

4 I think it is important for you to find out what happened.

5 MR. MUNDIS:

6 Q. Witness, when you saw the incident that you just described where

7 Car dropped his pants and Emsud kneeled, could you see what was happening

8 at that point in time?

9 A. Yes, of course. His genitals were in Emsud's mouth, and then

10 later, it was the other way around.

11 Q. So when you say "the other way around," at that point in time,

12 Emsud's genitals were in Car's mouth; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you see any type of sexual assault with the bottles on that

15 day?

16 A. Not on that day but later on, on another occasion, again, Zigic

17 and Duca arrived at the same place and they ordered Emsud to push a bottle

18 up his colon.

19 Q. Witness, while you were in Keraterm, did there come a time when

20 Emsud Bahonjic was hospitalised?

21 A. Emsud Bahonjic had one leg semi-fractured. We carried him out and

22 then a Captain or Captain First Class of the Serb army came by and said

23 that he should urgently be taken to the hospital. A blue van arrived,

24 Emsud was transported to the hospital, and 10 or 15 minutes later, he was

25 followed by Zoran Zigic. And he -- he branded a sign of cross with a

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Page 3757

1 cigarette on his forehead. Emsud later said that in the hospital he

2 received no medical treatment, he was not examined, but rather beaten by

3 Zoran Zigic and then brought back.

4 Q. What happened to Emsud Bahonjic after he was brought back to

5 Keraterm?

6 A. After a period of time, Emsud died.

7 Q. Witness, did you know an individual with the nickname of Sengin

8 while you were in Keraterm?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell the Court about this person, please.

11 A. He was brought from the hamlet of Puharska to Keraterm. I don't

12 know whether this had happened in 1991 or 1992. He said that he bet with

13 someone that he would wear a green beret on the Bajram holiday for 100

14 German marks. And Zoran Zigic came and asked him, "Do you now want to

15 wear a green beret for 100 marks?" Because he started beating him on the

16 head. Zoran had his arm in a cast so he beat him with this cast and a

17 Skorpion automatic rifle. He just beat him indiscriminately with whatever

18 he had. After a while, he, Sengin, had his head swollen and was taken to

19 the hospital, from there transferred back home, and then brought back to

20 Keraterm from home again. He was in Keraterm all the way through to 4th

21 or 5th of August. Then he was called out, and before -- and he was taken

22 in one of the two buses that left Keraterm, and no one knows where they

23 ended up.

24 Q. Let me ask you a couple of clarifying questions there, Witness.

25 Do you know the name of this person whose nickname was Sengin?

Page 3758

1 A. Jasmin Ramadanovic.

2 Q. You've indicated, you testified, about two buses. Can you

3 describe a little bit more in detail the circumstances surrounding those

4 two buses and the people who got onto the buses?

5 A. Two buses arrived, and first one was parked on the pista in front

6 of the rooms, and an inordinately large escort arrived for these buses.

7 The camp commander came out of the office, Sikirica, with a list of some

8 sort. And he said, "Whosever name I read out should collect their

9 belongings and board the bus." He called people out and people boarded.

10 Jasmin Ramadanovic got on the bus, Itko Jakupovic from Kozarac, Asim Elkaz

11 from Kozarac. These are the names that I can remember now. And these

12 people were taken in an unknown direction.

13 Q. Do you recall, Witness, the approximate date when these two buses

14 arrived at the camp?

15 A. This was on the same day when we were transferred to Trnopolje

16 camp.

17 Q. And what day was that, Witness?

18 A. I cannot tell -- say exactly whether that was on the 4th or the

19 5th of August.

20 Q. Witness V, at the time that you were in Keraterm, were you ever

21 personally mistreated by anyone in the camp and, if so, can you please

22 describe that for the Court.

23 A. On one occasion, I was standing in line for the food, and Zoran

24 Zigic took me out of the line. He hit me, kicked me with his leg and hit

25 me with his arm and then kicked me again in the stomach. And later on, on

Page 3759

1 another occasion, a guard named Miso, whose surname I don't know, on the

2 pista found me there and found the casing of a bullet in my pocket, which

3 I used to clean my nails with. He threw it away. He found my driver's

4 licence in my pocket, tore it up. He found a piece of old bread, he threw

5 that away too. And he kicked me in my legs. He hit me then with a rifle,

6 and kicked me in the stomach and in the region of my kidneys.

7 And also once, when I was taking Emsud to the toilet, another

8 guard named Kondic used a cable to hit me and Emsud on our backs and

9 ordered me to leave Emsud and to get back to the dormitory.

10 Q. Witness, during the time that you were in Keraterm, did you become

11 aware of a massacre that occurred in the camp with respect to Room 3?

12 A. Yes. I learnt about that. I saw that the same morning when I

13 woke up, although I didn't sleep that night.

14 Q. Can you describe for us not the events of that night but the

15 events of the next morning when you first came out of your room.

16 A. Kajin came up to the wire from Room 1 and called out. That is to

17 say, he pointed with his finger to me and said, "Jakupovic and Refik" from

18 Puharska - I don't know his surname - and he ordered us to go outside and

19 told us to pull out the dead bodies and place them on the pista in front

20 of the dormitory. As Sead Jakupovic couldn't do that - he started

21 vomiting straight away - he told Sead to go back and somebody else came

22 out, and he carried on doing that work with us. Suddenly we heard a

23 scream, a moan coming from the toilets, and Kajin, escorted by another

24 guard, came by, took out his pistol and went into the WC, and suddenly we

25 heard a bullet fired. When Kajin came out of the toilet, he put his

Page 3760

1 pistol back into the holster and said, "You have another one in the

2 toilet."

3 Q. Witness, approximately how many bodies did you remove from Room 3

4 on that morning?

5 A. It was about 120 dead bodies and 48 wounded bodies.

6 Q. Did you personally load any of those bodies onto trucks?

7 A. I didn't load anything onto the trucks. That was done by the

8 wounded, those who were slightly wounded in the leg or the arm, hand.

9 Q. Can you briefly describe what Room 3 looked like on that morning

10 as you were removing the bodies.

11 A. The door was all hit with the bullets and there were bullet holes

12 in the walls. It was tragic to look at all that blood and all that. And

13 as time went by, it started to stink, because it was sunny, and the stench

14 got worse by the hour.

15 Q. Witness, you've testified that on the [redacted], you

16 left Keraterm. Where were you taken?

17 A. We were taken to the camp, Trnopolje.

18 Q. And approximately how long did you remain there?

19 A. I stayed in Trnopolje camp for another five to ten days and was

20 then transferred to Puharska, and from Puharska I went to Travnik.

21 Q. Witness, during the time that you were in Keraterm, did you lose

22 weight; and if so, approximately how much?

23 A. I lost between 17 to 19 kilogrammes.

24 Q. With respect to [redacted], did he also lose weight in Keraterm?

25 A. He lost more weight than me, because he would give his food

Page 3761

1 rations to me.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Witness V.

3 The Prosecution has no further questions at this time.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

5 Mr. Greaves.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

7 Q. Witness V, can you help me, please, about this: You have made, in

8 connection with events in Keraterm and elsewhere in 1992, you have made

9 two statements concerning those events, have you not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. One of those, is it correct, was to --

12 MR. GREAVES: May we go into private session, please.

13 [Private session]

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Page 3762

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21 [Open session]

22 MR. GREAVES:

23 Q. Witness V, the second statement which you made was one which you

24 made to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 26th of September, 1994; is

25 that correct?

Page 3763

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And on that occasion, you were interviewed by an American lady,

3 Teresa McHenry; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And at the end of making that statement, is it right that the

6 statement was read over to you in the Bosnian language? Do you accept

7 that?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. And you signed it at the end of the statement and you signed each

10 page; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And as far as the signatures on each page are concerned, is it the

13 case that you signed each page as Teresa McHenry and the interpreter went

14 through that page with you?

15 A. I can't remember that, but I think that's how it was.

16 Q. And you signed a short acknowledgment at the end of making the

17 statement, to this effect: "This statement has been read over to me in

18 the Bosnian language and is true to the best of my knowledge and

19 recollection." And there were some other matters as well, but that's the

20 important bit. Do you recall signing such a --

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. And concerning events which took place in 1992, was what you told

23 Ms. McHenry all that you knew of events in Keraterm and Trnopolje and

24 Omarska and places like that? Absolutely everything?

25 A. It isn't all -- everything. If I were to tell everything, I could

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Page 3765

1 go on talking for three months, because every day spent in the camp was

2 like a year outside. You would have new things to remember every day,

3 new, sad experiences, and things that I had experienced.

4 Q. Well, let's just examine one aspect of the making of your

5 statement. It was something like 13 pages long. When you gave the

6 information which you did to Ms. McHenry, for example, concerning people

7 who had been in the camp as guards, as interrogators, as shift commanders,

8 as commanders, was the information which you gave to Ms. McHenry accurate,

9 Witness V?

10 A. It was accurate, but there is more, because from one day to the

11 next, I remember new things.

12 Q. Yes. Please answer the question and the question only, Witness

13 V.

14 A. But that was the question, although it wasn't -- I didn't

15 understand it properly. Could you describe what you mean briefly?

16 Q. When you gave your statement to Ms. McHenry, when you describe

17 individuals who performed functions as guards, shift commanders,

18 interrogators, commanders, camp personnel, was the information which you

19 gave to Ms. McHenry accurate?

20 A. Yes, it was accurate.

21 Q. Let's look at one other aspect concerning events in Room 3. Were

22 the matters that you recorded and told to Ms. McHenry and went through at

23 the end of making the statement, were those accurate, those details?

24 A. I said that the details were accurate but there are always more

25 and more details like that.

Page 3766

1 Q. Of course. No doubt there are details which you recall which you

2 did not recall when you were being asked questions by Ms. McHenry as to

3 what had happened, but is it your position that the statement you made to

4 Ms. McHenry is in itself entirely accurate?

5 A. Of course.

6 Q. When you first arrived at Keraterm, it was obviously being run by

7 the military police; is that what was going on?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You assert today that a man called Sikirica was the commander of

10 the camp. That's not your recollection truthfully, is it, Witness V?

11 A. That is my truthful recollection, because the same day that I

12 arrived in the camp, I didn't know who Sikirica was. That came to be

13 known later on, who Sikirica, Kajin and Fustar were. We learnt about that

14 in due course.

15 Q. You thought the man Sikirica was a guard, didn't you?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. Not the commander, a guard; isn't that right?

18 A. That's right, yes. I thought he was a guard, but after a certain

19 amount of time, it was evident that Sikirica was going upstairs to some

20 office and then we assumed that he had a function. When the leaders of

21 the guards themselves said that the commander of the camp was Sikirica,

22 then it was Sikirica.

23 Q. Forgive me, Witness V, you've just told us this morning that what

24 you put in your statement was accurate concerning things like commanders,

25 shift commanders, interrogators and guards. And what you said was this,

Page 3767

1 in relation to this topic: "Guards who usually worked with Kole included

2 two brothers, Kajin, and a man Sikirica." And that's the only mention you

3 make of Sikirica, isn't it, in your statement to Ms. McHenry which you

4 told us was accurate.

5 A. Yes. It's true that I just mentioned Sikirica then.

6 Q. And you -- do you accept that at no time until today have you ever

7 suggested that Sikirica was the commander of the camp?

8 A. I don't understand that question.

9 Q. Do you accept that until today you have never said Sikirica was

10 the commander of the camp?

11 A. Well, I never said. Had I said that Sikirica was the commander --

12 not commander; "zapovjednik" is a Croatian word. I mean commander of the

13 camp.

14 Q. Now, perhaps you'd like to answer the question which I asked you,

15 please, Witness V.

16 A. I did not say, but I say now that Sikirica was the commander of

17 the camp.

18 Q. In 1994, was your stay in Keraterm fresh in your mind?

19 A. No, I had a lot of problems then, but it was much fresher in my

20 mind, yes, that's true.

21 Q. Well, why not say, if you, as you now assert, "We eventually

22 learnt and it eventually became obvious to me that Sikirica was the

23 commander"? Why not say that if you are now putting it forward as being

24 true?

25 A. Well, because I didn't remember to say that. It didn't come to my

Page 3768

1 mind at the time.

2 MR. GREAVES: May we go into private session, please?

3 [Private session]

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Page 3769

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20 [Open session]

21 MR. GREAVES:

22 Q. Witness V, I want to ask you now about the 5th of August, 1992,

23 the day when Keraterm closed. Today is the first time you've ever

24 mentioned the existence of any lists and any suggestion of Sikirica having

25 anything to do with those lists of people, isn't it, Witness V?

Page 3770

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. Why didn't you tell Ms. McHenry about that?

3 A. It didn't occur to me. I didn't think it was important.

4 Q. What was it about the lists and Sikirica which suddenly made you

5 remember to tell us about it?

6 A. Well, I just happened to remember the two buses that were taken

7 off. And then the memory came back to me as to who called out the list,

8 because we were discussing Sengin, and Sengin went away with the bus that

9 was called by Sikirica. And so my memories come back to me one by one.

10 The film unwinds.

11 Q. You see, we've had other witnesses this week who have mentioned

12 for the first time Mr. Sikirica having anything to do with lists. You've

13 been talking to some of the other witnesses about this issue, haven't you,

14 and you've been told that this is somehow important --

15 A. No.

16 Q. This is somehow important for the Prosecutor.

17 A. I never talked about that.

18 Q. And you have now introduced it in order to assist, as you believe

19 it, the Prosecutor's case, and to back up other witnesses who have been

20 cross-examined about this topic; isn't that right?

21 A. No.

22 Q. When you talked to the police in the country where you first lived

23 after leaving Bosnia, you made no mention at all in that statement of

24 Mr. Sikirica, did you?

25 A. I don't remember. It was a long time ago and I've learnt two

Page 3771

1 languages since then.

2 Q. Help us about this, please: You approached the - I'm sorry - the

3 police in the country where you were living at that time in order to give

4 them information, didn't you?

5 A. Right, yes. It was my moral obligation towards the people who had

6 disappeared in the Keraterm camp.

7 Q. What about the Office of the Prosecutor? Did you volunteer

8 yourself to the Office of the Prosecutor as a potential witness?

9 A. Not me, but the authorities of the country I was in. I came into

10 contact with them and told them that they should contact the Tribunal so

11 that I could be a witness.

12 Q. So you instigated -- it was you who told the police in that

13 country that they should put your name forward to the Office of the

14 Prosecutor?

15 A. That's right, yes.

16 Q. When was it that you went to the authorities in that country and

17 asked them to put yourself forward as a witness?

18 A. I don't remember. I don't remember the year or the date.

19 Q. Well, let's see if I can help you, Witness V. You gave your

20 account to the police in the country where you were living on the 22nd of

21 October, 1993. Does that refresh your memory as to that date?

22 A. I gave the statement, the first one, in 1993, and I think they

23 contacted the Tribunal.

24 Q. The second statement, the one to the Tribunal, is dated the 26th

25 of September, 1994. When in relation to the actual making of the

 

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Page 3773

1 statement to Ms. McHenry did you approach the authorities in your country

2 and say, "Get in touch with the Tribunal"? When in relation to that?

3 A. My country, you mean?

4 Q. Yes. At that stage, you were living in a particular country, you

5 had made a statement to the police authorities. You've told us that you

6 got in touch with those authorities and instigated them to inform the

7 Tribunal of your existence. When did you do that?

8 A. How do I know when that was? How should I know?

9 Q. Was it very shortly before you spoke to Ms. McHenry or months

10 before you spoke to Ms. McHenry?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. At the time when you got the authorities in the country where you

13 were living to get in touch with the Tribunal, what was your resident

14 status in that country? Were you a refugee? Did you have a residence

15 permit? Did you have an employment permit?

16 A. I had a residence permit, I had a work permit, because whoever

17 comes to that country gets an unlimited work permit. And a residence

18 permit that I received was for six years, and within that period I also

19 received their passport.

20 Q. Are you saying that anybody who comes to that country

21 automatically gets an open-ended work permit?

22 A. An unlimited work permit, to each and every former Yugoslav. They

23 all receive this open-ended work permit, because we all requested asylum

24 and we were all granted it, whether we were Bosniaks, Bosnian Serbs, or

25 Bosnian Croats. We all got our papers.

Page 3774

1 Q. Once you had made a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, did

2 you seek any sort of confirmation from the Office of the Prosecutor to be

3 sent to the authorities in the country where you were then living that you

4 had made a statement and were now going to be a witness?

5 A. I didn't require anything because, when they came, the question of

6 my residence in that country had already been settled.

7 MR. GREAVES: I thought I had asked him - and I'm sorry, it may be

8 that it was misheard - whether he had asked for a confirmation from the

9 country in which he was then living, and I'm sorry if I asked the wrong

10 question. Can I just do that again, please, Your Honour?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

12 MR. GREAVES:

13 Q. Witness V, ignore for a moment the question that I've just asked

14 you. In 1994, you were living in country number 1, where you had gone

15 after being -- after leaving Bosnia.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In relation to the authorities of that country, the first country

18 to which you went, did you seek from the Office of the Prosecutor any form

19 of confirmation or certificate that you had given a statement and were due

20 to be a witness before this Tribunal?

21 A. To whom should they send such a certificate?

22 Q. I think the question is quite simple, Witness V. Please answer

23 it.

24 A. I simply don't understand. You're asking me about a certificate.

25 I didn't ask for any kind of certificate, nor did I ask those authorities

Page 3775

1 to send any kind of certificate or request or anything.

2 Q. The answer was no. Well, let's just have a look at one or two

3 matters. Can you help me about this, please: There was, when you first

4 got to Keraterm, a commission which was organised to interrogate people;

5 do you accept that?

6 A. Correct, yes.

7 Q. And as a result of the activities of that commission, a number of

8 prisoners were allowed to go home; is that correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And as far as you know, those who were released remain alive to

11 this day; is that correct?

12 A. Not all of them.

13 Q. So when you said in 1994, "I know that the ones who got out are

14 alive," that wasn't entirely accurate; is that what you're saying?

15 A. I don't understand.

16 Q. Yes. I'm looking at the statement which you gave to Ms. McHenry

17 and which you told us is an accurate account of matters. You said, "I saw

18 some people go home and I know that the ones who got out are alive." Are

19 you now saying that that is inaccurate?

20 A. At the time, they were alive when they were released from the

21 camp, and in 1994, but among them, I had some relatives and that -- one of

22 them is now dead. He was killed in Puharska. So they are not all alive.

23 Q. Yes. But that was after they had gone home, nothing to do with

24 Keraterm at all.

25 A. They were released and they went home and they arrived home alive,

Page 3776

1 but what happened to them later ...

2 Q. You yourself were interrogated; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And on that occasion, it was a guard who called you out and took

5 you to the interrogation room; do you accept that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the guard then left you, and there were two inspectors who

8 carried out the interrogation of you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And it was obvious, wasn't it, that they knew quite a lot about

11 you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And your family?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And you were interrogated, for example, about your political

16 affiliations, your military affiliations and activities and things like

17 that, weren't you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. As far as Emsud Bahonjic is concerned, it's right, isn't it, that

20 when he was arrested, he had in his possession a rifle and ammunition? Do

21 you recall that?

22 A. The rifle was from the reserve police force, as is stated in my

23 statement, and a uniform of the reserve element of the Yugoslav police,

24 and the ammunition, which he returned to them, all of it.

25 Q. Was it that fact, the fact of his possession of a weapon and the

Page 3777

1 fact that he was a reserve police officer, which was the focus for, the

2 motive for, the beatings which he received?

3 A. Well, I think that in the area of Kozarac municipality, not a

4 single policeman was left alive, either in the reserve or in active duty,

5 because all Muslims that held positions were in their way.

6 Q. Did you take part in the Territorial Defence of Kozarac, Witness

7 V?

8 A. I wasn't in the Territorial Defence of Kozarac, but as a village,

9 we did have our own guards, because in my street, there was a Serb church

10 and we protected the Serb church more than anything else so that the Serbs

11 wouldn't blow it up and then blame it on the Muslims. We protected it

12 more than we did the mosques.

13 Q. It's right, isn't it, that at some stage during the events

14 concerning Emsud Bahonjic, a military officer was at Keraterm and saw

15 Emsud Bahonjic, didn't he?

16 A. He came when Emsud was half dead, and he saw the condition he was

17 in. He was a Captain or Captain First Class, I don't remember exactly, of

18 the Serb army.

19 Q. And it was he, was it not, who gave orders for Emsud Bahonjic to

20 be taken to the hospital?

21 A. He said that that man must go to hospital. He couldn't give

22 orders to anyone because it wasn't an order.

23 Q. Well, did Emsud Bahonjic then go to the hospital?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that was almost immediately after he had made the observation

Page 3778

1 about him being taken to hospital, wasn't it?

2 A. Yes. He said this in the morning and this was in the afternoon.

3 Q. As far as the events at Room 3 were concerned, it's right, isn't

4 it, that what you saw was anti-aircraft guns being used on this occasion?

5 Do you accept that?

6 A. I beg your pardon? Anti-aircraft guns?

7 Q. I'm now looking at the statement, which you've told us was

8 accurate, which you made to Ms. McHenry in 1994. It says this,

9 that: "People were Room 3 were shot using anti-aircraft guns. I knew it

10 was an anti-aircraft gun because the next day I saw empty shells." Are

11 you now saying that what you told Ms. McHenry was inaccurate?

12 A. A gun and machine-gun are two different things, and this was an

13 anti-aircraft machine-gun.

14 Q. A large calibre - 20 millimetres or more - weapon; is that what

15 you're saying?

16 A. No. It was an anti-aircraft machine-gun.

17 Q. It's either a machine-gun, I suggest to you, Witness V, or an

18 anti-aircraft gun. You are now trying to back pedal furiously when you've

19 been caught out in something which is obviously ridiculous; isn't that

20 right?

21 A. It is not at all ridiculous. What I'm saying is that it is a

22 machine-gun.

23 Q. You were trying to exaggerate furiously when you spoke to Ms.

24 McHenry, weren't you, by using the phrase "anti-aircraft gun"?

25 A. I never mentioned the word "gun." I said "machine-gun." I

Page 3779

1 remember that well, that I mentioned a machine-gun. There may have been

2 errors in the translation.

3 Q. Were you in the JNA for your national service, Witness V?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Which year?

6 A. 1989, 1990.

7 Q. Which branch of the service?

8 A. Naval infantry. I wore -- the Marines. I wore a blue beret.

9 Q. And I have no doubt that the JNA had amongst its infantry of

10 ordnance anti-aircraft guns, did it?

11 A. Yes, they did have anti-aircraft guns, but I'm talking about an

12 anti-aircraft machine-gun, anti-aircraft machine-gun, and that is what I

13 have been saying all along.

14 Q. The point is this: When you spoke to Ms. McHenry, you knew, I

15 suggest, what an anti-aircraft gun was and what its difference from a

16 machine-gun was, and you were identifying to her and saying, "I knew it

17 was an anti-aircraft gun because of the shells." Isn't that it?

18 A. I said "machine-gun," and I abide by that. And as I was saying,

19 it can only be an error in the translation. Because in brief, it is a

20 PAM, P-A-M, which stands for anti-aircraft machine-gun.

21 Q. It's right, isn't it -- well, just help me about this: This

22 incident, was it lit up during the night, Room 3?

23 A. Was it lit up?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. None of the rooms were lit up, and this anti-aircraft machine-gun

 

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Page 3781

1 which was mounted on a truck or a jeep - I don't know what it was - there

2 were strong floodlights attached, focusing towards the dormitories. And

3 on that occasion, between number 1 and number 2, I saw Komandir Kole. I

4 saw him and his shadow and his voice saying, "Don't shoot here. There are

5 men from Puharska and Prijedor in there."

6 Q. And did these spotlights, arc lights, floodlights, enable you to

7 see the weapon?

8 A. The next day, by the shells, one could tell what kind of weapon it

9 was. They were not just shells from the PAM but also casings from an

10 automatic rifle and pistols.

11 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour just give me a moment, please.

12 Q. I want to ask you now about a man called Tadic. Is that somebody

13 whom you knew back in 1992, Witness V?

14 A. I don't know which Tadic you're referring to. There are several

15 of them.

16 Q. Dusan Dule Tadic.

17 A. Yes, that does ring a bell.

18 Q. Owner of a restaurant or cafe business who came originally from

19 Kozarac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You told Ms. McHenry something about him, didn't you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You said that you knew him?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. That you've not seen him ever at Keraterm or Trnopolje, save on an

Page 3782

1 occasion when he was in a minibus on the road to Kozarac?

2 A. Correct. Correct.

3 Q. And after you were released from the various camps, you saw him on

4 a couple of other occasions, once near the railway station and once in

5 Prijedor with another person whom you knew; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And in relation to events at Keraterm, in relation to events

8 connected with Emsud Bahonjic or any other person who was ill-treated in

9 Keraterm, that's all that you ever saw Dusan Dule Tadic do, and so what

10 you've told her was accurate; is that right?

11 A. What I saw with my own eyes, I said, but he could have put a mask

12 on and come at night and beat people. I don't know that.

13 Q. Why did you then, if that is an accurate account of matters, claim

14 that you had on the 8th of July, 1992 - and claimed to the police in the

15 country where you were first living after leaving Bosnia - why did you

16 claim that one of the people who beat Emsud Bahonjic was Dusan Dule

17 Tadic? Let me make it plain. You claim that that was happening in

18 Keraterm. Why did you say that if it's not true?

19 A. Dusan Dule Tadic or Duca Dusan Knezevic, these are two different

20 people. I never said that Dusan Dule Tadic beat him. I only said that

21 Dusan Duca Knezevic had beat him.

22 Q. Well, let's just have a look at that. You start, in your account

23 to the police in that country -- and you signed the statement, of course,

24 didn't you, when you made it?

25 A. Which statement? The first or the second?

Page 3783

1 Q. To authorities in the country where you were living, the police in

2 that country.

3 A. There are two statements, the first and the second. My question

4 is: Is it the first or the second?

5 Q. The first one.

6 A. Tell me clearly so I know. The first statement, you mean? Yes, I

7 did sign the first statement.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... 1993. You know very well

9 which statement we're talking about, don't you, Witness V?

10 A. Yes, but it's easier for you simply to tell me first statement or

11 second statement.

12 Q. What you're doing is you're playing for time whilst you think of

13 the answer to this particular problem; isn't that right, Witness V?

14 A. No. No.

15 Q. You know that you made two statements. You know very well which

16 statements we have been talking about at length this morning, don't you?

17 A. Correct, but you are holding both statements in your hands, and I

18 gave the first statement in 1993 and I never saw it again, and you are

19 holding it and studying it.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, please move ahead with the question.

21 MR. GREAVES: Yes, I was about to.

22 Q. Witness V, in that statement, which I suggest you signed, you

23 asserted this: "Several soldiers were guilty of this gross maltreatment

24 of Emsud Bahonjic." Three of them you can name, having known them from

25 previously. All of them came from towns outside -- or located near to

Page 3784

1 Kozarac. You name Zoran Zigic, Dusan Knezevic, and you said this: The

2 third military man that you recognised and can single out was Tadic,

3 Dusan, known as Dule, owner of a restaurant business, aged about 30 to 35

4 years old, who came from the same town as you. Do you recall telling the

5 police in the country where you were living that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What I suggest --

8 A. There was only reference to Dusan Knezevic, known as Duca.

9 Q. How could the police in a country far, far away from Bosnia

10 possibly know any details about a man called Dusan, Dule, Tadic, Witness

11 V?

12 A. I don't understand the question.

13 Q. Yes. In the interview, you were interviewed by a police officer

14 from the aliens unit; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was he someone who was a national from the country in which you

17 were then living?

18 A. Yes, he was.

19 Q. And he was the one who was recording what you were telling him; is

20 that right?

21 A. Yes. He was the one who was taking notes.

22 Q. How could that police officer from the aliens unit in that country

23 possibly know anything about Dusan, Dule, Tadic, a restaurant owner from

24 Prijedor, the Prijedor district? You were the only one who could have

25 supplied those details, weren't you?

Page 3785

1 A. Yes, but maybe there was mention of Emir Karabasic, Dule's best

2 friend from Kozarac in those days.

3 Q. Witness V, what has this person got to do with the issue of how

4 the police officer could know about Dusan Tadic?

5 A. Maybe I mentioned Emir Karabasic, and in connection with him,

6 Dusan Tadic, Dule.

7 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, is that a convenient moment?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it is.

9 Witness V, we are going to take an adjournment of half an hour.

10 During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody,

11 including the members of the Prosecution team.

12 We will return at 11.30.

13 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, I should say that the Chamber has

16 been thinking about the question of time and expeditiousness and how to

17 ensure that cross-examination does not proceed for an unduly long time.

18 We believe that cross-examination for an hour is reasonable in the

19 circumstances, and we encourage you not to go beyond an hour.

20 MR. GREAVES: I have absolutely no idea how long I've been so

21 far.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have been about an hour.

23 JUDGE MAY: Fifty minutes.

24 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm fairly confident that I

25 shall finish within ten minutes.

Page 3786

1 Q. Witness V, can you help us, please, as to the date on which Emsud

2 Bahonjic was brought to Keraterm camp?

3 A. On the 7th or 8th.

4 Q. Of which month?

5 A. Of June.

6 Q. Of June. And can you tell us, please, the date on which you were

7 interrogated?

8 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly. I don't know, but I was

9 still in Room 2. I don't know whether I was interrogated on that day or

10 the following day.

11 Q. Can you give us an approximate date for the date of your

12 interrogation?

13 A. I don't know that. I don't remember.

14 Q. Had Emsud Bahonjic died shortly before that?

15 A. Emsud Bahonjic died 15 to 19 days later.

16 Q. Fifteen to 19 days after you were interrogated?

17 A. After he came to the camp.

18 Q. So sometime around the 22nd to the 26th of June?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And is it your evidence that he was beaten every day after his

21 arrival at the camp?

22 A. He was beaten every day, once, twice, sometimes even three times a

23 day. And it wasn't only during daytime. They also beat him at night.

24 Q. Can you help us, please, about this? Why was it, then, that you

25 told the police authorities in the country where you were living in 1993,

Page 3787

1 when you made your first statement, which you signed, that it was not

2 until the 8th of July that Emsud Bahonjic began to be assaulted and that

3 it was after about nine days of this treatment that he died? Can you help

4 us about that?

5 A. That he died nine days after being mistreated? I heard -- I hear

6 about this for the first time now.

7 [redacted] What

8 I suggest to you, Witness V, is this: You are someone who is perfectly

9 prepared, terrible though the events involving Emsud Bahonjic were, but

10 you are someone who is prepared to exaggerate, exaggerate and exaggerate

11 where you think it will assist to make things worse for those who were

12 involved. Isn't that right?

13 A. Sir, whatever I have said is correct, and I did not see you in the

14 camp so that you would be able to assert these things. I am relating what

15 I have experienced and what I have seen, and the memories emerge on a

16 daily basis.

17 Q. And, for example, in relation to Mr. Sikirica, you are intelligent

18 enough to know that adding things which you did not know, exaggerating

19 things about him, will help to get him convicted, and that is why, I

20 suggest, you have now come up with these bits of evidence about

21 Mr. Sikirica. Isn't that the position?

22 A. No. That is not the position. And I just remember something

23 about Kajin which I did -- never mentioned before, if, with your

24 permission, I will mention it now.

25 Q. I haven't asked you about Mr. Kajin. It's a matter for the

 

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Page 3792

1 Q. Sir, what was it about the camp that made you claim to the police

2 in that country that you thought it was a prisoner-of-war camp? What was

3 the quality of the camp that led you to think that and tell them that?

4 A. At that time, none of us was a soldier, and I think that it only

5 could have come through translation. At that time, it was difficult to

6 have things translated. And the person who interpreted for me was not a

7 Bosniak at all. He was from Albania.

8 Q. And finally, as far as Sengin Ramadanovic, is it right that he was

9 singled out for ill-treated because he was suspected of being,

10 effectively, a member of the Green Berets?

11 A. He was not suspected of having been a Green Beret. The Serb in

12 Prijedor saw him wearing a green beret during the Bajram holiday.

13 Q. It's right, isn't it, that at this time, in the atmosphere of that

14 time, anybody who might in some way be associated with an organisation

15 known as the Green Berets would be thought to be a dangerous extremist?

16 Isn't that right?

17 A. For them, for the Serbs, civilians were Muslim extremists, women

18 and children were extremists.

19 Q. Is it right that people who were associated with an organisation,

20 a military unit, known as Green Berets were in particular thought of as

21 being dangerous extremists? Yes or no.

22 A. I never saw Green Berets in my town so I cannot answer your

23 question.

24 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, subject to the matter which you've

25 given me leave to reopen my cross-examination about, if I can go and do

Page 3793

1 that, and subject to inviting you to have exhibited both his statement --

2 first and second statement, both of which are signed, that's my

3 cross-examination.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

5 MR. GREAVES: Will Your Honours give me leave to withdraw and try

6 and sort out that matter?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

8 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it Mr. Rodic or Mr. Petrovic? Mr. Rodic,

10 there is a matter I want to raise with Mr. Petrovic first.

11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: There was an occasion earlier in the trial when

13 both Mr. Londrovic and yourself jumped to your feet at the same time, and

14 apparently what prompted the movement was the use of the word "commander"

15 in B/C/S. You made some points about it, but I'm afraid it was lost on

16 me. I have heard this witness use the word "komandir" as it has come

17 across in translation. If it is a point of some importance to you that

18 this word has a particular meaning in your language, then you might

19 consider leading some evidence on it in your defence, when you present

20 your case.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you

22 for pointing this out. It is very important for both Mr. Londrovic's case

23 and for our case. Later on, we spoke to our colleagues who are native

24 English speakers and we determined that there is a fine distinction

25 between the word "komandir" as used by the witnesses who gave evidence

Page 3794

1 here and the way that it was interpreted to us here in the courtroom. The

2 word "komandir" --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't want you to give evidence. You can't

4 give evidence.

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, yes. Thank you very

6 much. We will research this, Your Honour. Thank you very much again for

7 pointing it out. It is going to be part of our defence, and we will

8 elaborate on it, thank you.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic?

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness V, good morning to you.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we go to private

14 session for a moment, please?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

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Page 3800

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you'll have to wait. We are? We are in

4 open session.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Can you be more specific as to the date that you were transferred

7 from Room 2 to Room 1?

8 A. I moved the same day that [redacted] was interrogated, because

9 during the day I spent in Room 2 and in the evening I went to [redacted]

10 [redacted] slept together.

11 Q. Did I understand you correctly to say that you were not

12 interrogated?

13 A. I was not interrogated, but I spent the night in Room 1 with

14 [redacted].

15 Q. Do you know when [redacted] went up for his interrogation?

16 A. I don't know that, no.

17 Q. He didn't tell you ever?

18 A. I never even asked him, nor was I interested, the date or that.

19 Q. Very well. His being moved from Room 2 to Room 1, did that mean

20 that he had to have been interrogated first?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us, then, roughly, when he was transferred from Room

23 2 to Room 1 in respect to your arrival in Keraterm on the 31st of May?

24 A. We arrived at the Keraterm camp together, and I can't say. Was it

25 the first week or the second week of our stay in the camp, I can't say

Page 3801

1 exactly.

2 Q. That means that after [redacted] was interrogated, he was moved

3 to Room 1. And you also moved from Room 2, at your own initiative, if I

4 can use that term, to Room 1, and then you spent time there with

5 [redacted].

6 A. No. I stayed on in Room 2 during the day, and at night, when it

7 was sleeping time, after 7.00, I would go to the toilet from Room 2 and go

8 to Room 1 to sleep there together with [redacted].

9 Q. To clarify this point, I have to ask you again. What you've just

10 said, does that refer just to that particular day or did you do that for

11 the rest of the time you spent at Keraterm camp; that is to say, that you

12 were in Room 2 during the day and kept moving to Room 1 during the night?

13 A. That was only two or three times before I was interrogated. As

14 soon as I was interrogated, I spent my whole time in Room 1. I was

15 transferred to Room 1 and spent my days and nights there.

16 Q. In answer to my question, you said a moment ago that you had never

17 been interrogated in Keraterm. How do you mean, "not interrogated"?

18 A. I was interrogated by Inspector Modic, and that is what it says in

19 my statement.

20 Q. I claim that you remembered that in the meantime, because you were

21 quite resolute a moment ago answering my question when you said that you

22 were not interrogated. I asked you the same thing twice.

23 A. You didn't ask me or I didn't understand your question.

24 Q. Very well. Let's move on. In general terms, may we accept that

25 during the first or second week of your stay in the camp, you were finally

Page 3802

1 transferred to Room 1?

2 A. Yes, after my interrogation.

3 Q. In Rooms 2 and 1, were there some other prisoners who were the

4 sort of heads of the dormitories and in charge of communication with the

5 guards?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. Can you tell us their names, if you know them?

8 A. Room 1, Brta; Room 2, Feho or Feha. I'm not quite sure of his

9 name, whether it's Feho or Feha, but he was a tall, bald man.

10 Q. Thank you. That head of the dormitory, dormitory 1, that you said

11 was nicknamed Brta, was he there throughout your stay in Keraterm in that

12 room?

13 A. Yes, he was.

14 Q. I would now like to ask you something with respect to your

15 military service. You said that you were in the marines, in the marine

16 infantry, naval infantry. Can you tell us how long your training lasted.

17 A. Six months.

18 Q. What about the weapons you were issued with while you were in the

19 army, and what kind of training did you have with respect to weapons?

20 A. I did marksmanship from an automatic rifle and a pistol, a

21 recoilless gun.

22 Q. Did you ever come into contact with machine-guns, any type of

23 machine-gun?

24 A. Not with machine-guns, but next to us there was a platoon which

25 was the anti-aircraft defence platoon, and from them I gained some

Page 3803

1 knowledge about weaponry. And you yourself served the Yugoslav People's

2 Army, so you're well aware of that fact yourself.

3 Q. Yes, that is correct, but I served a little earlier, before you.

4 On that occasion, that is to say during your military service, did you

5 become acquainted with the aspect and characteristics of an anti-aircraft

6 gun?

7 A. Not a gun but a machine-gun, yes, because a gun you had to pull

8 behind a truck and didn't come to the place we cleaned our weapons.

9 Q. Can you describe briefly what an anti-aircraft machine-gun looks

10 like?

11 A. An anti-aircraft machine-gun, I don't know what the calibre is,

12 but generally speaking it has a larger bullet than a normal machine-gun

13 and it looks bigger than a normal machine-gun, and it has a support that

14 can be mounted on a trailer truck, to a truck or a jeep, a trailer.

15 Q. Can you tell us something about size, the size of the weapon?

16 A. It's a little bigger than a normal machine-gun.

17 Q. How much bigger?

18 A. Well, usually you can move it left, right and roundabout in a

19 circle. There are some commands so that you can target a plane and move

20 it around.

21 Q. Could you tell us how long the barrel is, roughly?

22 A. I would say the barrel was a little longer than an ordinary

23 machine-gun.

24 Q. What do you mean by "a little longer"?

25 A. Well, I can't say.

 

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Page 3805

1 Q. I'm asking you approximately. You don't have to give us it in

2 millimetres.

3 A. I can't give you an exact answer to that question.

4 Q. Where you lived, did a Territorial Defence organisation exist?

5 A. Yes. And the Territorial Defence existed during the existence of

6 Yugoslavia.

7 Q. Before the war, in Prijedor, did they have control of some

8 checkpoints?

9 A. Not in Prijedor.

10 Q. I'm talking about your locality or around your locality.

11 A. This was assigned by the Yugoslav People's Army. They said where

12 the point would be, or the Prijedor barracks.

13 Q. As far as you know, at that time, was it illegal to purchase

14 weapons by the population?

15 A. Well, I didn't have a rifle, nor do I know any member of my family

16 having a rifle.

17 Q. I asked beyond your family, in the place you lived. Do you happen

18 to know?

19 A. I wasn't interested in that.

20 Q. Would you please give me a yes-or-no answer.

21 A. I was a young man and I wasn't interested in that. That's a short

22 answer.

23 Q. You say you weren't interested but I am -- put it to you that in

24 the statement you gave to the investigators of the Tribunal, that you

25 answered that question as well. You gave an answer, and you said there

Page 3806

1 were illegally acquired, unregistered weapons. That's what you stated in

2 1994. Were you interested in matters of that kind then?

3 A. Well, perhaps that is the recollection I had at the time. I'm not

4 interested in it now, not now, but I'm not generally interested in it at

5 all.

6 Q. When you arrived at Keraterm, did the guards or anybody else abuse

7 you?

8 A. When we arrived the first day, there was no abuse. We were just

9 searched by the military police, who took us in that night, and the next

10 day, the guard shifts, the shifts of guards turned up.

11 Q. Yes, thank you. We've heard that already. When did the

12 mistreatment start, roughly?

13 A. The first case of mistreatment was when Zigic arrived in Keraterm,

14 to the camp itself.

15 Q. I'm just asking you about days. Can you tell us days?

16 A. Well, after three, four, five or seven days perhaps. I don't know

17 exactly.

18 Q. On the 1st of June, during your stay there, did you see somebody

19 by the name of Branko Knezevic?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Was he a guard in Keraterm?

22 A. Yes, he was a military policeman. But then he was acting as a

23 guard, performing the duty of a guard.

24 Q. Did he stay on in Keraterm? Did you see him?

25 A. That same day, he left Keraterm and new guards arrived.

Page 3807

1 Q. At the beginning, were there two shifts in Keraterm?

2 A. At the beginning, yes, there were two shifts.

3 Q. In your opinion, when did three shifts come into being? What

4 period was that? When did three shifts start working?

5 A. Three or four days later.

6 Q. After what?

7 A. After my arrival in the camp.

8 Q. How many days went by after you had arrived when you saw Zigic in

9 the camp for the first time?

10 A. Well, some time went by, let's say three to four days. No, I saw

11 him in the camp the first time two days after my arrival.

12 Q. Did you see the guards for the first time who came with him?

13 A. I wasn't interested in the guards. Zigic was. We were afraid of

14 him most.

15 Q. What about Kajin and Kolundzija? Did they work together with

16 Zigic during that time, those days?

17 A. Which days?

18 Q. When you saw Zigic arrive.

19 A. That day, I didn't see whether Kajin and Kole were on duty or

20 anybody else, but later on, I did.

21 Q. What did you see later on?

22 A. That Zigic would come to the camp alone, that he did what he

23 wanted, what he liked. And it didn't matter whose shift was on duty; he

24 would come to the camp.

25 Q. Let me ask you now for a moment whether you happen to know whether

Page 3808

1 Emsud Bahonjic on the 15th of June went to the Prijedor hospital.

2 A. Yes, he did go.

3 Q. Did Zigic work on the previous night and beat people who came from

4 Sivac and shot at the ceiling and wounded a man?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. In the night between the 24th and 25th, when the massacre in Room

7 3 is mentioned, did the Kajin brothers work together with Kole?

8 A. No. That night it was Kole, and in the morning, the Kajin

9 brothers came to take up their shift.

10 Q. Very well, thank you. You said that the komandirs or leaders of

11 the shift were Kajin and Fustar; is that true?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In all the statements so far given to the investigators, the

14 police, and in testimony of the Omarska case, up until the present day,

15 you never made mention the three shift leaders, nor did you name them; is

16 that right?

17 A. That's right and nobody ever asked me either.

18 Q. Is it true that the investigators didn't ask you that either,

19 about the shifts and their komandirs or leaders?

20 A. They did ask me in the Omarska case but it wasn't essential and I

21 didn't mention it.

22 Q. I'm asking you in the Keraterm case.

23 A. No, they didn't. The investigators now did not ask me about that.

24 Q. Did they ever ask you about that?

25 A. I said, as far as the Omarska case is concerned, yes, they did

Page 3809

1 ask.

2 Q. What did the investigators ask you concerning the Omarska case?

3 A. Well, I testified in the Omarska case.

4 Q. I'm asking you a very precise question. You know what we are

5 talking about.

6 A. Well, you asked me what they asked me.

7 Q. In respect of the shifts.

8 A. They asked me, "Do you know who the shift leaders were, the

9 komandirs?"

10 Q. Where, in Omarska or Keraterm?

11 A. In Keraterm, the komandirs, the shift leaders, were Kajin, Kole

12 and Fustar.

13 Q. That's what they asked you in the Omarska case when you testified?

14 A. Yes, but I didn't mention that in my testimony because it was not

15 important.

16 Q. Asked by the Prosecutor who the shift leaders or komandirs were,

17 in the Keraterm camp, during your testimony in the Omarska case, did you

18 answer in the same way and say it was unimportant?

19 A. I didn't understand your question. What do you mean?

20 Q. When you testified in the Omarska trial and when you were asked

21 whether Kole, Fustar and Kajin were the shift leaders or komandirs in

22 Keraterm, did you give him the same answer that you gave me just now and

23 say that it was not important?

24 A. No. I didn't say it was not important but I didn't mention it in

25 the courtroom before the Trial Chamber because it was not important in

Page 3810

1 that particular case.

2 Q. What was your answer when asked this question by the Prosecutor?

3 A. I don't understand what you mean.

4 Q. Did you say that you were asked for the first time when testifying

5 in the Omarska trial about komandirs, shift leaders and who they were, who

6 the shift leaders were in Keraterm? Is that right?

7 A. I wasn't asked by the Trial Chamber at all or by the Prosecutor in

8 the Keraterm case.

9 Q. Did the Prosecutor, during your testimony in the Omarska trial,

10 Omarska case, ask you who the shift leaders were in the Keraterm camp?

11 A. No, he didn't ask me. Or I don't know what you mean, what you're

12 asking me.

13 Q. I think you know very well.

14 A. No, I don't. I don't know what you mean, what you're asking.

15 Q. Is it possible, Witness, that the investigators or anybody else

16 from the Prosecution in the Keraterm case where you gave your statement,

17 ever asked you, up until the present moment, who the komandirs or shift

18 leaders were in the Keraterm camp?

19 A. In my previous testimony, I talked in the courtroom about the

20 Keraterm camp, about Kajin, about Zigic, but nobody ever asked me who the

21 commander of the camp was and who the komandiri or shift leaders were.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your indulgence,

23 could you do something to have the witness answer my previous question?

24 Could you assist me there, Your Honour?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: It seems as if he has answered. He says:

Page 3811

1 "In my previous testimony, I talked in the courtroom about the

2 Keraterm camp, about Kajin and Zigic, but nobody ever asked me who the

3 commander of the camp was and who the komandiri or shift leaders were."

4 So he seems to have answered your question there. He says he

5 wasn't asked.

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he's going back to his

7 testimony in the Omarska trial, in the trial for Omarska camp, and my

8 specific question was: Was it possible that nobody, none of the

9 investigators or the Prosecution team from the Keraterm trial, Keraterm

10 case, during the taking of statements and in their contacts with him,

11 asked him ever about whether there were shift leaders and who the shift

12 leaders were in the Keraterm camp, and he has been avoiding answering my

13 question.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness V, counsel is not asking about the

15 Omarska trial. What he's asking you now is whether any of the

16 investigators or any member of the Prosecution team in the Keraterm

17 trial - that's this trial - during the taking of their statements and in

18 their contacts with you, did any of them ask you who were the shift

19 leaders in the Keraterm camp.

20 A. They did -- my investigators did ask me. The gentleman whom I

21 worked with before asked me, and yesterday the gentleman I worked with

22 today asked me.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's an answer to the specific question.

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. That first investigator who worked with you, when was that?

 

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Page 3813

1 A. That was when I testified about the Omarska camp, last year.

2 Q. Was the investigator's name Teresa McHenry?

3 A. No.

4 Q. I'm asking you now specifically: Teresa McHenry, as an

5 investigator, did she ever ask you about shift leaders in the Keraterm

6 camp?

7 A. No, she never asked me that. She just asked me in 1994 in my

8 place of residence. I had a talk with her then.

9 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that, at first, in those first few days

10 of the Keraterm camp, people, after having been interrogated, were

11 released home? Is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Can you tell me, please, how long this went on, roughly, and how

14 many people were released?

15 A. This lasted the first week of our stay in the Keraterm camp, of my

16 stay in the Keraterm camp, but I don't know how many people were released

17 home.

18 Q. Were those people given a certificate saying they had been

19 interrogated?

20 A. Yes, they received a certificate saying that they had been

21 interrogated, and it said on that certificate that they were free to live

22 and move around the town of Prijedor.

23 Q. Did you ever see a certificate of that kind?

24 A. No, because I didn't have one, my father didn't have one.

25 Q. I'm asking you about the certificate on the basis of which people

Page 3814

1 were allowed to go home and were allowed to move around Prijedor.

2 A. Yes. I've answered you. I never saw a certificate of that kind.

3 Q. In 1994, when you gave your statement, on page 6 of that statement

4 you said the following:

5 "In the first seven days, interrogations took place of people

6 before a commission. After the interrogation, some of the prisoners were

7 issued certificates in which it said that they were not guilty. Those

8 prisoners were subsequently released and allowed to go home. I

9 saw certificates of that kind."

10 You now say that you never saw those certificates?

11 A. I didn't see them. I saw the paper they were holding in their

12 hands. I didn't have the paper in my own hands, but I saw the paper that

13 other people had in their hands.

14 Q. Is it true that in those first seven days, 30 to 50 people were

15 released from Keraterm and allowed to go home?

16 A. Yes. Perhaps even more.

17 Q. Do you know whether those certificates were issued by the

18 interrogators who conducted the interrogations of the prisoners?

19 A. I don't know who issued them. I think they issued them, yes.

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 3815

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: [redacted]

2 [redacted].

3 Continue.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted].

7 A. [redacted].

8 Q. Is it true that he was brought in on the 8th or 9th of June to

9 Keraterm?

10 A. 7th, 8th, or 9th. I'm not quite sure of the date.

11 Q. Why, when you gave your statement to the police in 1993, were you

12 quite explicit, saying that he was brought in on the 3rd of June?

13 A. Sir, you are studying my statement.

14 Q. I'm asking you a brief statement.

15 A. I was still under shock when I arrived at the place where I made

16 my statement.

17 Q. Would you accept if I say that in [redacted] it says

18 that he arrived on the 11th of June, and [redacted] that he

19 arrived on the 6th of June?

20 A. I am saying what I just said. You are studying those statements

21 and I haven't even seen them.

22 Q. What you referred to as "study" is simply conveying what is

23 written in the statement that you gave and signed. I am not tricking you

24 or trying to deceive you. Will you please answer my questions briefly.

25 Are you sure regarding the date you gave us?

Page 3816

1 A. I am not sure of a single date. I am telling you that he arrived

2 between the 7th and the 9th to the Keraterm camp, but I'm not 100 per cent

3 certain, because that was nine or ten years ago.

4 Q. Was [redacted] a reserve policeman?

5 A. Yes. He was a member of the reserve police force.

6 Q. Was he issued a weapon?

7 A. Like all the other policemen.

8 Q. What did he have as a weapon?

9 A. He had an automatic rifle.

10 Q. Did he have a set of ammunition together with a rifle?

11 A. Yes, he did.

12 Q. Was he taken into custody wearing a uniform and carrying a weapon?

13 A. He surrendered his weapon.

14 Q. My question is: When he was taken into custody, was he wearing a

15 uniform and carrying a rifle?

16 A. He was not wearing a uniform, but he was carrying a rifle.

17 Q. Before he was brought to Keraterm, had he been imprisoned anywhere

18 else?

19 A. Yes. In the military barracks in Prijedor.

20 Q. Did anyone mistreat him over there?

21 A. Dusan Knezevic, known as Dusa.

22 Q. I assume that he told you that when he arrived in Keraterm.

23 A. That could be seen on him, and he himself told us. He had many

24 bruises on his face.

25 Q. [redacted] was placed in Room number 2?

Page 3817

1 A. Yes, right next to the door.

2 Q. Throughout his detention in Keraterm, was he in Room 2?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In that time period, while he was there, were you with him in Room

5 2, or perhaps [redacted]?

6 A. For two or three days, I was in the same room as he, and then I

7 moved. That is, during the day, I would be with him, and in the evening,

8 I would go to Room number 1 on my own. And once I was transferred, then I

9 would spend day and night in Room 1.

10 Q. In answer to a question by my learned friend, you said that

11 [redacted] died 15 or 19 days after he arrived. Could you please be a

12 little more precise regarding the date?

13 A. I do not know the date, but I know that he died in Room number 2.

14 Q. Was that also what you said when testifying in the Omarska case in

15 answer to this question?

16 A. I don't remember that.

17 Q. Allow me to remind you. Testifying in the Omarska trial, you were

18 quite explicit, and you said that he died on the 19th of June, before 5.00

19 a.m.

20 A. Before 5.00 a.m.? Emsud died on the 19th of June and Batan Colic

21 came to tell me that. Now, whether that -- but that was before 5.00 in

22 the afternoon. Batan Colic came to Room number 1 to tell me that, because

23 he died in that man's lap.

24 Q. How is it that at the time, testifying in the Omarska case, you

25 knew the exact date and now you couldn't answer my question regarding that

Page 3818

1 date?

2 A. I often forget dates. They don't interest me.

3 Q. Are you prone to forgetting other things in addition to dates?

4 A. No. I only forget dates.

5 Q. When you were speaking about the incident when Emsud and Car were

6 beaten, you also mentioned the situation with the dismantling of the

7 machine-gun.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I would like to ask you in that connection, could you now describe

10 to us how the order came, to whom it was issued, who dismantled the

11 machine-gun, whether it was assembled again? Could you briefly describe

12 that for me?

13 A. Car and Emsud were ordered to run in a circle. Car was carrying

14 the machine-gun on his back. It was raining outside. After half an hour

15 of this mistreatment and beating of Emsud and Car, they were ordered to

16 disassemble the machine-gun. Car couldn't do it but Emsud helped him.

17 They disassembled it, cleaned it and assembled it again.

18 Q. Allow me to tell you now what you said in your testimony in the

19 Omarska trial. On page 3891, you said, "After that, they took Emsud back

20 to the room, and Zigic gave Car a machine-gun and told him to run around

21 in a circle." Then on page 3892, "After that, Zigic ordered Car to

22 dismantle the machine-gun. Car managed to do it. However, he couldn't

23 reassemble it." And on that same page, you said, "Later on, Car was

24 ordered to call Emsud to help him put the machine-gun together again.

25 After that, Emsud was brought back to the room and Car remained outside,

Page 3819

1 still running around in a circle." Do you agree with me that this

2 testimony in the Omarska case differs from what you have just told us?

3 A. Only in detail, but in substance, it is all the same.

4 Q. With relation to that incident, could you tell me when exactly Car

5 died?

6 A. An hour after that incident, one hour later.

7 Q. Did you personally see that?

8 A. I saw his body.

9 Q. No, no. That was not my question. My question was, in relation

10 to that incident, when did Car die? And you said an hour later. I'm now

11 asking you, did you actually witness Car dying?

12 A. I did see the body but I didn't see him pass away.

13 Q. This body, did you see it an hour after the incident?

14 A. Yes. I saw the dead body an hour after the incident.

15 Q. Let me tell you now what you said in the Omarska trial on page

16 3892: "The next day, I saw that Car was dead."

17 A. You didn't ask me when I saw it. I saw the dead body. But I

18 heard from people that Car had died an hour later.

19 Q. I'm not going to repeat to you what you told us a moment ago,

20 because that would be wasting time. It is quite clear that your

21 statements differ, those you gave in the Omarska case and now, and also in

22 relation to your previous statements.

23 A. Sir, nine years have gone by since then, our memories wane and

24 reappear.

25 Q. Is it right to say that your testimonies differ?

 

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Page 3821

1 A. No. Essentially they are all the same.

2 Q. Did you testify in the Omarska case on the 29th -- I'm sorry, on

3 the 10th of July last year?

4 A. I really don't remember the date.

5 Q. Was it roughly at that time?

6 A. I don't remember the date. I'm telling you, I was here but I

7 don't know the date.

8 Q. You also said a moment ago that Batan Colic informed you about

9 Car's death.

10 A. Not about Car's death; about Emsud's death.

11 Q. With respect to this situation involving [redacted], did you

12 see his body immediately after death yourself, and where?

13 A. I saw his body shortly after his death, whether it was half an

14 hour, 20 minutes or one hour, in Room number 2. And later on, the body

15 was put between the toilet and Room number 3, where the beer crates used

16 to be.

17 Q. My question a moment ago was about Emsud and his going to hospital

18 on the 15th of June, and you confirmed that. Are you aware that his going

19 to hospital was organised by Kajin?

20 A. Who organised it?

21 Q. Kajin.

22 A. Who is Kajin? Oh, Kajin?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. I don't know that.

25 Q. On that occasion, apart from Emsud, were some other detainees

Page 3822

1 driven off?

2 A. Yes, there were several.

3 Q. Did Zigic get into the same vehicle as they, the vehicle that was

4 taking the prisoners to hospital?

5 A. Whether Zigic went with them or whether he followed them, I don't

6 know 100 per cent, but I know from Emsud, and you could see on his

7 forehead a cross made with cigarette butts.

8 Q. You saw that yourself personally?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Do you know a man or a prisoner by the name of Jusuf Arifagic?

11 A. No.

12 Q. That man testified here in court.

13 JUDGE MAY: He doesn't know him. He doesn't know him. Now,

14 you've been cross-examining, Mr. Rodic, for very nearly an hour, the

15 examination-in-chief having taken 35 minutes, only that long. You've been

16 examining, as I say, for nearly an hour. You have not yet begun to

17 examine about the relevant parts in relation to your client. The Chamber

18 must ask you to move along. Now, he doesn't know this man. So there is

19 no point putting a statement or anything else from what he said. In due

20 course, you can comment to us about any discrepancies there may be, but

21 there is no point putting them to this witness.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I shall move on.

23 Q. When testifying in the Omarska trial, you said that when those

24 people were taken to hospital, that you saw somebody getting onto the

25 kombi in addition to the prisoners.

Page 3823

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who was that?

3 A. Zigic.

4 Q. Why didn't you tell me that a moment ago?

5 A. I did give you an answer. I don't know whether he went with them

6 or whether he followed them.

7 Q. In the meantime, have memories awoken regarding that incident?

8 A. Yes. My memories are aroused.

9 Q. You mentioned that Emsud's death was established by the doctor

10 Boro; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you see that doctor yourself?

13 A. I knew that doctor personally, and I saw him that day in the camp

14 when Emsud passed away, and he said to the guards and the detainees that

15 his heart had given up or something like that.

16 Q. Did people like Sahadija and Kondic take part in Emsud's beatings?

17 A. Yes. I was telling you today that when I was going to the toilet,

18 Kondic beat Emsud.

19 Q. You remember very well the people who were beating [redacted]

20 whenever you saw them?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I have to ask you once again: How, then, is it possible that you

23 are today denying that one of those people was Dusko Tadic?

24 A. Look, I was talking about Dusan Knezevic, known as Duca. And as

25 for Dule, I said where I saw him, and that is in my statement. There can

Page 3824

1 only be a confusion due to the translation.

2 Q. In your statement to the police, you explicitly mentioned the name

3 of three people, described them, and gave information about them. Among

4 those three was Dusan Tadic.

5 A. Maybe I was referring at the time to Emir Karabasic.

6 Q. Correct. In that statement you did mention Emir Karabasic as

7 well, but when Zigic and Knezevic came to Trnopolje and when Zigic had a

8 showdown with him, and that is quite different from the name Dusko Tadic.

9 A. I don't understand that question.

10 Q. Let me quote what you told the police about that:

11 "The prisoners were escorted to the new camp by the already

12 mentioned soldiers, Zigic and Knezevic. Upon arriving to that new camp,

13 these two soldiers beat and mistreated a man with the name Karabasic."

14 And then you go on to explain the reason, that they wanted to get

15 money from Karabasic, and so on. So that situation is not linked to Dusko

16 Tadic at all.

17 A. We are not talking about the same Karabasic. I am talking about

18 Emir Karabasic and you are talking about my arrival in Trnopolje.

19 Q. Will you please give me a concrete and concise answer.

20 A. We are not talking about the same Karabasic. On that occasion, I

21 didn't see Dusko Tadic in Trnopolje.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, if I may.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Just for the record, we would like to object on the

25 grounds that this has been covered, that it is of a tangential matter, and

Page 3825

1 we just want to put that on the record, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Rodic, please move on. We are coming

3 up to the break. And if I am not mistaken, there is a specific allegation

4 that was made relating to your client. Perhaps you would seek to deal

5 with that.

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, indeed,

7 I will ask this witness about it.

8 Q. When I asked you about these three names, in your statement to the

9 police you said clearly that one of these three was always present when

10 his relative was mistreated, and this happened every evening. Did you

11 tell the police this?

12 A. I do not remember that.

13 Q. Thank you. During the night of the Room 3 massacre, were you

14 awakened by fire, the sound of fire?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where were you in the room at the time? Could you describe your

17 position?

18 A. I was in Room 1, [redacted]

19 [redacted].

20 Q. How many detainees were there in the room between you and the

21 front door of the room, roughly?

22 A. Over a hundred. I don't know how many.

23 Q. The next day, in the morning, after this incident, you said that

24 Kajin himself called you out to collect the bodies.

25 A. No, not personally. He pointed his finger and said, "You, you,

Page 3826

1 and you."

2 Q. Do you know a prisoner called Kaltak from Room 1?

3 A. Katluk [phoen]?

4 Q. Kaltak.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Witness Brta, the leader of this room, said here in Court that

7 Sead Jakupovic and Kaltak went out of the room. He didn't mention you.

8 A. Maybe he didn't know my name. I was from [redacted] and he was

9 from Puharska.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, I think we're going to take the break

11 now. There are two specific allegations made by this witness in relation

12 to your client, so I think during the adjournment you should perhaps look

13 at the transcript and when you return deal with them, with those

14 allegations, very briefly.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I will do so, Your Honour. Thank

16 you.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves.

18 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour will recall there was the issue about

19 that photograph.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

21 MR. GREAVES: Could I have the pictures handed to you so that you

22 will see what I am going to talk about. I don't want to mention it in

23 great detail. Thank you very much.

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 3827

1 [redacted]. Can I perhaps ask Your Honours to think

2 over lunch as to what I can and can't do in putting this picture to the

3 witness? [redacted]

4 [redacted] I suspect there

5 would be no great mischief - and that would be my submission - there would

6 be no great mischief in showing the witness that particular photograph,

7 but I seek Your Honours' guidance, please.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll take the adjournment and give our

9 instructions on that matter on the resumption.

10 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, if possible, the Prosecution would like

13 to see --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, absolutely.

15 MR. GREAVES: Of course. I'm sorry. I hadn't had an opportunity

16 to speak to Mr. Mundis about it, but it won't, I think, come as a great

17 surprise to him.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness V, we are going to take the adjournment

19 now for lunch. We'll resume at 2.30. During the adjournment, you are not

20 to discuss your evidence with anybody, including the members of the

21 Prosecution team.

22 We're adjourned.

23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.

24

25

 

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Page 3829

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, first we are going to go in private

3 session for me to deal with the question of the -- the question raised by

4 Mr. Greaves.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

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Page 3833

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

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4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [Open session]

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Did someone ask you about the incident in the toilet which you

10 described in your statement?

11 A. They did not ask me, but I simply recounted what had happened to

12 me, so I came to that incident.

13 Q. Do we agree that it was about your being called out and assigning

14 you to carry out bodies?

15 A. Yes. He assigned me to carry out the bodies and then subsequently

16 the incident in the toilet took place.

17 Q. Was this incident when you carried out dead bodies not one of the

18 most terrifying experiences you had in Keraterm?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. So it would stand to reason that you would remember, that you

21 would volunteer to say who it was who called you out to do that.

22 A. At that time, nobody asked me this, and perhaps I did not remember

23 that name at that moment.

24 Q. Today in the examination-in-chief, you said that you had counted

25 120 dead and 48 wounded; is that correct?

Page 3834

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. Let me refresh your memory. In your 1994 statement you said that

3 120 people were killed, 38 were wounded, and 10 survived.

4 A. That is correct too, but the additional ones were killed a day or

5 two later.

6 Q. You did not link that number with the days within which it

7 happened. When you testified in the Omarska case last year, you said, "I

8 think the number of those killed was 120." This is on page 3896 of the

9 transcript. At that time, you were not sure. You said that you thought,

10 and that it was around 120. Today you are giving us an exact number.

11 A. I said around 150, around 120. I think that tells you about the

12 exact number.

13 Q. When you were questioned by the Prosecutor in the Omarska case,

14 page 3895, you were not asked about the number of dead and who called you

15 out. You volunteered this information.

16 A. Yes. I mentioned that name, but I never insisted on an exact

17 figure of those who were killed.

18 Q. Tell me, please: You were carrying out those bodies and laying

19 them in a particular area; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it true that after you completed the assignment, after you had

22 arranged those bodies, you returned to the room?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. [redacted] stated that [redacted] who was with him in Room 2 was

25 ordered to go and carry out bodies from Room 3 and load them on a truck

Page 3835

1 which had arrived. "Later on, he told me that the number of killed were

2 147."

3 A. That tells you that [redacted] and I never talked about the events

4 in the camp.

5 Q. So where does [redacted] get the number which he gave to the

6 investigators of the Tribunal?

7 A. He may have heard it from other people, because he and I never

8 spoke about the camp.

9 Q. [redacted] claims here that he heard it directly from you.

10 A. He may have heard it from me at that moment, but on that day I was

11 lost. I was lost every day while I was in the camp.

12 Q. [redacted], in the statement of 14 January 1996, said that

13 while he was --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel please repeat the statement? He

15 was reading it too fast.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: The interpreters are having some problem.

17 They're overlapping. Would you repeat your question, Mr. Rodic.

18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Is it correct what [redacted] said, that you fainted while doing

20 this job?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know where he got that information?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Is [redacted] then not telling the truth when he said that?

25 A. I don't know.

 

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Page 3837

1 Q. The discrepancy is obvious, and both cannot be true.

2 A. You should talk to [redacted] about this.

3 Q. Also, you just stated that on the night of 25/26, when Kole's

4 shift was on, the next day the Kajin brothers' shift was on duty; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Let me again tell you this: In your statement of 1994, you said:

8 "Among the guards who usually worked with Kole, there were two Kajin

9 brothers and a man called Sikirica." How do you explain that?

10 A. They were non-stop carrying around some lists, they were always

11 talking, they were discussing things constantly, and when you turned a

12 shift over to the other one, you always turn it over to another commander,

13 and this is what I remember from the army.

14 Q. Let me ask you this --

15 A. I have no other answer to give you.

16 Q. Please hear me out. In 1994, you stated: "Among the guards who

17 usually worked with Kole, there were two Kajin brothers and a man called

18 Sikirica." This is what you stated in 1994.

19 A. I stated that they worked in the camp. Now, whether they worked

20 together in the shift, that's not what I said.

21 Q. This is your statement, which was read back to you and which you

22 signed as truthful; is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Can you tell us how the other brother looked, the brother whom you

25 also know under the nickname Kajin.

Page 3838

1 A. He was thinner than the older Kajin, fairer hair, and younger.

2 Q. Can you tell us, in comparison to Kajin whom you see here today,

3 how tall was the other Kajin?

4 A. He was shorter, but I don't know how much shorter.

5 Q. How was he dressed?

6 A. He was wearing a military camouflage uniform or a blue uniform.

7 I'm not sure which one.

8 Q. Was the camouflage uniform you just mentioned a military uniform?

9 A. Certainly.

10 Q. And the blue one, I imagine, was the police uniform?

11 A. No. It was also military uniform.

12 Q. Was that the blue uniform worn by the military police and the

13 airmen?

14 A. I don't know which kind it was.

15 Q. Can you describe it for me a little bit closer?

16 A. It was a blue uniform, regular, like the other uniform, except it

17 was blue in colour.

18 Q. Did you also see this other Kajin brother with the same nickname

19 on the day when you were carrying out bodies?

20 A. He was in the camp that day. I saw him.

21 Q. Where did you see him?

22 A. I don't recall.

23 Q. What is the basis on which you say that you saw him, then?

24 A. I saw him in the camp. I don't know whether he was standing by

25 the gate, whether he was standing by the weigh bridge where they had the

Page 3839

1 machine-gun nest. That I don't know.

2 Q. Did you see him near the toilet?

3 A. Near the toilet? At one point, he was talking something with

4 Kajin, but I don't know whether that was 20 or 30 metres away from the

5 toilet.

6 Q. On which day?

7 A. The same day when the massacre took place, in the morning.

8 Q. Can you tell me where you were at the moment when you heard that

9 somebody was moaning from the toilet?

10 A. I was bringing bodies out. I was at the door of Room 3.

11 Q. Could you hear moans from Room 3?

12 A. There were people asking for water, water, water.

13 Q. Were there any moans?

14 A. There were no moans but there was crying and there was shouts, "We

15 want water."

16 Q. According to you, what was the distance between the location in

17 front of Room 3 where you were and the entrance to the toilet?

18 A. About five to six metres.

19 Q. At that point, who else was carrying out bodies with you?

20 A. Sead Jakupovic was there with me, but he returned to the room.

21 There was Mirzet. I don't recall their names now. And Aco Zeric was

22 bringing a container with water.

23 Q. Do you know what Mirzet's last name is?

24 A. No, I don't.

25 Q. And do you know in what room he was from?

Page 3840

1 A. From Room 1.

2 Q. So this would now be the third, that is the -- a fourth person who

3 was working on carrying bodies?

4 A. Yes. It was myself, [redacted]

5 [redacted]. He couldn't -- he was nauseous. He went back to the room and

6 this man came out.

7 Q. Did a man called Elko also participate in carrying out the bodies?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What is his name?

10 A. I know him as Elko.

11 Q. Do you know a man called Hazim Sivac?

12 A. No.

13 Q. The moan you heard coming from the toilet while you were busy in

14 front of Room 3, was this heard by anyone else who was there working with

15 you?

16 A. They all heard it.

17 Q. Did any one of you react in the sense of going to the toilet to

18 see what was going on?

19 A. We had nothing to do in the toilet. We had been ordered what to

20 do, and this is what we were doing.

21 Q. Where was Kajin at the moment when the man moaned?

22 A. He was standing next to us and then he and another soldier went in

23 the direction of the toilet. He was pulling out a pistol when -- as they

24 were entering. I could -- we could hear a shot, and then he was returning

25 a pistol in his holster when coming out.

Page 3841

1 Q. At the moment when Kajin was passing by, where were you and what

2 were you doing?

3 A. I was carrying a body by the arms, and I was moving backwards.

4 Q. Were there any other guards nearby?

5 A. There was another man with Kajin. He was a guard. I don't know

6 him. And they went into the WC together.

7 Q. Apart from those who passed by you, were there any other guards

8 thereabouts?

9 A. Around us, nearby, there weren't any, but they would always be

10 walking up and down and looking to see if anybody was trying to escape.

11 Q. Could you tell us more specifically what that other guard looked

12 like? Could you describe him, the one that went past you together with

13 Kajin.

14 A. He had slightly longer hair, he was shorter than Kajin, about half

15 a metre shorter, I would say.

16 Q. Do you remember what colour his hair was?

17 A. It was a little darker than Kajin's, not quite black, a little

18 lighter than black.

19 Q. Do you remember how the guard was dressed?

20 A. He had a camouflage military uniform on.

21 Q. What kind of uniform was Kajin wearing at that moment?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. How come you know all those details and then you still maintain

24 that you saw Kajin pass by you, go into the WC, but that you don't know

25 what he was wearing?

Page 3842

1 A. Well, quite naturally, he was wearing a military uniform. Whether

2 it was a camouflage uniform or an ordinary army uniform, I can't say.

3 Q. You describe what the other guard was wearing in great detail.

4 A. Well, I didn't know his name.

5 Q. Can you tell us who took out the body from the WC of the man in

6 the toilet?

7 A. There wasn't just one body in the WC. There was another one in

8 front of the WC. Whether it was Elko or Aco who pulled the body out, I

9 couldn't say.

10 Q. How many bodies were there in the WC?

11 A. In the WC itself, there was just one body, but in front of the WC

12 and at the very entrance, because there were two doors going into the

13 toilet, there were one or two corpses.

14 Q. When you said that Kajin told you to take out the bodies, who was

15 he addressing in actual fact?

16 A. He said that to everybody, to us all.

17 Q. Why didn't you go?

18 A. Because I was pulling out another body.

19 Q. So the man who went off towards the WC was called Elko; is that

20 right?

21 A. Well, Elko or Aco, I'm not sure.

22 Q. At the moment when Kajin passed by you and went off towards the

23 WC, did you continue doing the work you were doing?

24 A. We worked non-stop, all the time.

25 Q. And you worked at the moment when Kajin allegedly came out of the

Page 3843

1 WC; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did you do at that particular moment?

4 A. I was pulling out bodies.

5 Q. How many bodies did you drag out in the meantime while Kajin

6 passed by you and when he came back from the WC?

7 A. Well, one or two. I can't remember.

8 Q. You told us today during the examination-in-chief that Kajin,

9 taking out a pistol from his holster, came in, went into the WC, that is,

10 and that he came out and put his pistol back into the holster. Is that

11 true?

12 A. Yes, that's true.

13 Q. Did that make you think that Kajin had shot?

14 A. Well, it made me think that he had shot, yes, and say that he had

15 shot. But that is quite normal. Other guards had pistols in their

16 holsters as well.

17 Q. You didn't mention that, but I'm going to ask you what happened to

18 the other guard.

19 A. What do you mean? He went off somewhere. How do I know where?

20 We continued working. They came back from the WC together.

21 Q. So they came out at the same time and went off somewhere; is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. You said that this other guard had a pistol too; is that right?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

 

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Page 3845

1 Q. While this was happening, where were you putting the bodies?

2 A. In front of Room 3.

3 Q. Could you be more specific, because there's a piece of grassy area

4 in front of Room 3, then there's a path and a bigger patch of grass.

5 A. I was placing the bodies on the smaller patch of grass in front of

6 Room 3, and it was three to four metres away from the entrance to the room

7 itself.

8 Q. Did you pile up the bodies? How did you pile up the bodies?

9 A. One beside the other.

10 Q. You mean breadth-wise?

11 A. Yes, one beside the other.

12 Q. And when you piled them up that way, how much room did they take,

13 talking about width?

14 A. Well, from the entrance to the WC, there was a patch of grass. We

15 put them in a row out there. Then in front of number 3 there was this

16 patch of grass and in front of Room 4 there was a patch of grass too, and

17 we would line the bodies up that way.

18 Q. While you were going about your business in this way, was the

19 truck there?

20 A. No, the truck wasn't there. It came later.

21 Q. Could you tell us when the truck arrived exactly?

22 A. The truck arrived sometime in the afternoon.

23 Q. And you were already in Room 1, were you?

24 A. Yes, in Room 1. I know that later on the wounded people were

25 loading up the bodies onto the truck, and the wounded ended up the same

Page 3846

1 way like the bodies.

2 Q. Can you tell me when you completed your work? When had you

3 finished lining up the bodies and when did you go back to the room? Can

4 you tell us, in the morning, what time it was?

5 A. Well, I don't know. It might have been 10.00, 11.00, 12.00. I

6 really can't say.

7 Q. And in relation to when you finished your work and returned to

8 Room 1 up to the time that the truck arrived, how much time went by?

9 A. I can't say. I can't remember.

10 Q. Do you know what the man looked like, the man that was brought out

11 of the WC?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Can you describe him to us?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Did you see his body at all?

16 A. Perhaps I saw it, but I didn't know that it was the body of the

17 man from the WC.

18 Q. Did you see the body being taken out of the WC at all?

19 A. I saw it being dragged out, but I wasn't interested in knowing who

20 the person was, whose body it was, because I had to do my own work.

21 Q. You mentioned Kajin, and when you described him walking into the

22 WC, taking out a pistol from his holster and coming back out of the WC and

23 returning his pistol into his holster, in July last year, while you were

24 testifying in the Omarska trial, you failed to mention that detail.

25 A. Which detail do you mean?

Page 3847

1 Q. I'm talking about the holster, the taking out of the pistol from

2 the holster, going into the WC, and returning it to the holster when he

3 came back.

4 A. Nobody asked me that.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, you have been cross-examining now, I

6 think, for about an hour and a half. The Chamber would like you to bring

7 your cross-examination to an end as quickly as possible.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Your Honour, but this

9 is a witness who has made grievous accusations and I have to test his

10 credibility, and I'll do my best.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. In your statement of 1994, you make no mention of this detail with

14 the holster.

15 A. Dear sir, images conjure up before my eyes. The people have

16 disappeared, but they come back to me. I remember them. Memories come

17 back, you know.

18 Q. Can you tell me: This incident itself, the moment that Kajin

19 enters the WC and up to the time he comes out, how long did that last?

20 A. It went on for two or three minutes. One minute, two minutes; I

21 can't say exactly. Maybe even half a minute. I can't say. For me, it

22 seemed an eternity.

23 Q. Did you watch Kajin go into the WC?

24 A. Well, if I hadn't been watching, I wouldn't have seen him take out

25 his pistol.

Page 3848

1 Q. When he went into the WC, how much time elapsed from the time he

2 entered until the shot was heard?

3 A. Well, 10, 20 seconds, half a minute perhaps. I don't know.

4 Q. After the shot, how long was he inside before he came out?

5 A. I don't know. I can't say.

6 Q. In your 1994 statement, you said: "After five or six minutes,

7 they told us to bring out his body too, the body of the man from the WC."

8 That's a much longer period than the one you're talking about now.

9 A. Well, I didn't specify any space of time.

10 Q. But you did in your last statement. Did you remember it then?

11 A. Which previous statement?

12 Q. I'm talking about the statement you gave to the investigators in

13 1994.

14 A. Perhaps I remembered, perhaps not. I don't know.

15 Q. And one more question with respect to that incident, Witness. In

16 your statement from 1994, which you have confirmed to be truthful by

17 signing it, you said the following: "In the toilet there was a man who

18 was still alive. The Kajin brothers went over there and I heard a shot."

19 That's what you stated to the investigators in 1994.

20 A. Yes. I said, "one of the Kajin brothers," and there it says, "the

21 Kajin brothers." I said, "one of the Kajin brothers."

22 Q. You didn't answer my question. In your statement, it says

23 resolutely, the Kajin brothers went there. When you say "brothers," in

24 the plural, it implies two.

25 A. I said, "one of the Kajin brothers and another guard." How that

Page 3849

1 was translated, I don't know.

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Page 3859

1 Q. Witness V, I have very few questions for you. Firstly, about

2 shifts, you told us that, at the beginning, there were two shifts in

3 Keraterm, and then it became three shifts.

4 A. As far as I knew, there were two shifts, and later there were

5 three, yes.

6 Q. Yes. I don't disagree with that, but you thought that the

7 changeover from two shifts to three shifts came a few days after you went

8 to Keraterm, at the beginning of -- beginning of June.

9 A. That happened a day or two after we arrived. We were first

10 guarded by the military police, and then suddenly guards came who worked

11 in three shifts.

12 Q. Well, may I suggest to you that it didn't take place until the end

13 of June, the beginning of July, the changeover from two shifts to three

14 shifts? Might that be right; can you now remember?

15 A. No, I don't remember that.

16 Q. So it might be right?

17 A. I'm not confirming anything.

18 Q. And secondly, about shifts, have you any doubt that Kajin took

19 over from Kole's shift on the morning after the Room 3 massacre?

20 A. Normally, we knew that after Kole's shift, Kajin's shift takes

21 over, because that is how it was from one day to the next. It was a

22 regular thing.

23 Q. And is that, to your recollection, what happened the morning after

24 the Room 3 massacre?

25 A. Yes. Kajin's shift took over.

 

Page 3860

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Page 3861

1 Q. When you mentioned Kole in response to questions from one of my

2 learned friends, you called him Komandir Kole. And I wonder if you can

3 just help us, those of us that can't speak Serbo-Croat, "Komandir" is a

4 lowly title, is it not, compared with "Komandant," which is a much higher

5 title?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. And when you use the word "komandir," you mean no more than shift

8 leader?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. You aren't able to give us much evidence about the shooting

11 itself, but you did say that you saw that there were very bright lights

12 and you also said that you saw Kole's shadow.

13 A. Yes, correct.

14 Q. And you're looking out of Room 1?

15 A. Yes. I saw his shadow and I heard his voice.

16 Q. Did you actually see his body?

17 A. Of course, since his shadow was there, his body must have been

18 there. I didn't see his body, but I did see his shadow and I heard his

19 voice.

20 Q. Thank you. So he wasn't just in front of Room 1 that you could

21 see his body, or probably not just in front of Room 2, which is next

22 door. It was the shadow of him which you remember; is that right?

23 A. His shadow could be seen on our wall in Room number 1 because of

24 the strong light, and he was standing with his arms wide apart saying,

25 "Don't shoot here. The people here are from Prijedor and Puharska."

Page 3862

1 Q. Now, you're not suggesting, are you - perhaps you are, but I hope

2 you're not - that nine years after the event, with all the trauma you've

3 been through, and you presumably didn't write it down immediately it was

4 said, that those words are precisely and categorically and undeniably the

5 ones that were used? You're not saying that, are you?

6 A. I have said what I heard. There may have been some other words

7 that I didn't hear that he may have added.

8 Q. Anything may have happened. What I'm suggesting is that unless

9 you wrote the words down immediately they were said -- did you do that?

10 A. I didn't write them down. I memorised them.

11 Q. When did you first write down what was said?

12 A. What do you mean write them down? Memorise them or put it down on

13 paper?

14 Q. You're not telling the court that you just decided to memorise

15 those words, are you?

16 A. I didn't tell the Court, those were the words that remained in my

17 mind.

18 Q. You told us that you had memorised them. Do you mean to say you

19 went over them again and again in your mind so that nine years later, you

20 could remember them exactly, word for word? Are you telling the court

21 that or not? I don't want to be unfair to you. If you're not saying

22 that, then say so.

23 A. I'm not saying that I know every single word, word for word, but I

24 do know that that man, that night, saved many people in Rooms 1 and 2.

25 Maybe if he hadn't said that, "Don't shoot here because the people here

Page 3863

1 are from Prijedor and Puharska," all of us might be dead, and I remember

2 those words well. He may have uttered some other words, but I didn't hear

3 them and I can't say I did.

4 Q. Anyway, there is no difference between you and me, that what Kole

5 was trying obviously to do was to get soldiers to stop shooting any more;

6 isn't that right?

7 A. To stop them shooting at Room 1 and Room 2.

8 Q. To stop them shooting any more.

9 A. To stop them shooting at Room 1 and Room 2.

10 Q. Why are you answering like that? Has somebody said something to

11 you?

12 A. No. No one said anything to me.

13 Q. Well, why can't you answer my question, that it was obvious,

14 whatever the words that were used, that Kole wanted the shooting to stop.

15 A. He said, "Don't shoot here. The people here are from Prijedor and

16 Puharska," and he stood between Room number 1 and Room number 2, but he

17 was closer to Room number 2 because that room was much bigger.

18 Q. You had just woken up; is that right?

19 A. Yes. I was woken up by the sound of strong shooting.

20 Q. That's right. What you'd heard was the machine-gun shooting

21 people, as we now know, in Room 3.

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And your impression is that he was saying, "Don't shoot over here

24 in these rooms. Stop shooting."

25 A. He stood between Room 1 and Room 2, but he was closer to Room 2

Page 3864

1 because it was bigger, and he said, "Don't shoot here because the people

2 here are from Prijedor and Puharska." This is the fourth time I've said

3 it.

4 Q. Yes. It may be the fourth time that you've said it but I want to

5 quite understand exactly what it is you are meaning by that. He'd

6 obviously -- the soldiers had obviously shot at Room 3 and had stopped

7 shooting at Room 3; is that right, at that moment?

8 A. Yes, correct.

9 Q. There was nothing that Kole could do about the shooting that had

10 already taken place at Room 3, was there?

11 A. I don't know whether there was anything he could do or not,

12 because I wasn't outside. I was sleeping, and I just heard this heavy

13 fire. That woke me up. And I heard his voice and saw his shadow.

14 Q. And it didn't make any difference, did it, him telling them to

15 stop shooting, because they carried on shooting, didn't they?

16 A. But they continued shooting at Room 3 and not at Room 1 and 2.

17 Q. They took no notice of him saying, "No more shooting," whether it

18 was Room 1 or 2 or wherever. They carried on shooting, didn't they?

19 A. Yes, they were shooting. We could still hear bursts of fire and,

20 later, single shots.

21 Q. And it was quite clear he had no control over them at all, isn't

22 it?

23 A. I don't know that. I'm not a military expert to be able to say

24 whether he had any control or not.

25 Q. And you think that's a proper answer to that question, do you,

Page 3865

1 Witness V?

2 A. I think I don't know whether he could have stopped it or not.

3 That is something I don't know.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.

6 Now Mr. Baly -- Mr. Mundis, I'm sorry. It's Friday afternoon.

7 MR. MUNDIS: It is indeed. The Prosecution just has one or two

8 follow-up questions for redirect.

9 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

10 Q. Witness V, on the night of the massacre, did the soldiers shoot

11 into Rooms 1 or 2?

12 A. They did not shoot into Rooms 1 or 2. Nobody shot that night into

13 the rooms themselves.

14 Q. So would it be fair to say that after Kole --

15 MR. LAWRENCE: [Microphone not activated]

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MR. LAWRENCE: Don't lead, please, in re-examination. That's not

18 allowed, under anybody's rules.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear the question.

20 MR. MUNDIS:

21 Q. You've testified that Kole said not to shoot into Rooms 1 and 2.

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Did the soldiers shoot into those rooms?

24 A. They didn't shoot into those rooms, the soldiers.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Witness. The Prosecution has no further

Page 3866

1 questions.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

3 And now, Witness V, you have concluded your evidence and you are

4 released. You will be escorted out.

5 Mr. Ryneveld.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Yes, Your Honours. I note the time.

7 Did you want us to start the next witness? My colleague, Ms. Baly, is

8 prepared to start another witness. However, I also have available a

9 two-page report, at the request of the Trial Chamber, concerning a matter

10 raised by Defence, and I'm ready and willing to distribute that to members

11 of the Trial Chamber and to my learned friends at this time if that's

12 convenient, but we're in your hands in terms of what you would like us to

13 do at this point.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please distribute the report.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're not going to have any argument on the

18 report now.

19 MR. GREAVES: I wasn't going to do that. There is a matter that I

20 would like to mention, if I may, please.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

22 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, my learned friend for the Prosecution

23 intimated to Your Honours earlier this week that there was no longer any

24 continuing objection to the three defendants having communication between

25 themselves. I don't think we've heard, either from Your Honours or from

Page 3867

1 the registry, what conclusion has been reached about that. May we know,

2 if there is a conclusion? It may be there is no conclusion as yet.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm informed that a draft order was prepared, and

5 it is assumed that it will be implemented, or perhaps it has already been

6 implemented. In any event, the registrar here will be in touch with you

7 after the hearing.

8 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. If I've nudged somebody's

9 elbow, I'm grateful for the opportunity to have done so.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the circumstances, there's not much point in

11 starting another witness, Mr. Ryneveld.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. If I might just then raise the

13 issue of scheduling for next week. Your Honours have received, I believe,

14 a list at one point about the witnesses that we still intend to call. I'm

15 unable to find my list, unfortunately.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have your list here.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you have one, two, three, four, five,

19 six, seven.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: We had hoped, actually, to finish the final

21 witness, K34, today. Unfortunately, we're falling a little bit behind

22 schedule. Three of the next witnesses are for cross-examination and

23 restricted, by the Court's order, to certain counsel. That leaves us with

24 two other, in addition to the one we didn't finish today, two other viva

25 voce witnesses which will be curtailed in terms of the amount of evidence

 

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Page 3869

1 that the Prosecution intends to call from them. One of those witnesses is

2 our investigator, who has prepared a report, and we're trying to get my

3 friends to perhaps give us an indication as to whether or not his report

4 may be admitted in lieu of the witness actually testifying. It's about

5 bodies and exhumations. If that's the case, we would hope to be able to

6 finish our case by Friday, June 1st, which would obviate or perhaps

7 resolve some issues about what might be done during the break in terms of

8 any motions my friends have to make and the timing, et cetera. We're

9 trying our best to accomplish that so that the scheduling would be

10 assisted and proper use can be made of the two-week break. I just thought

11 I would point that out to the Court so everybody is alive to the issues

12 that face us next week.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's very useful, and we have all heard from

14 the Prosecutor and I think we are all obliged to work as hard as we can

15 and as best as we can and, of course, as fairly as we can to ensure that

16 that schedule is maintained.

17 Sir Ivan.

18 MR. LAWRENCE: Can I ask the Court for some further clarification

19 about the timetable?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

21 MR. LAWRENCE: On the basis that the Prosecution finish their case

22 by the time that we adjourn for the beginning of June, we would presumably

23 come back and make, as I expect to be able to make on behalf of

24 Kolundzija, a Rule 98 bis application. I don't know whether my learned

25 friends will be doing likewise, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Page 3870

1 That would presumably take place at some time after the 18th of June,

2 those submissions, on and after the 18th of June.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. If we finish the Prosecution's case next

4 Friday, then the submissions, under Rule 98, would take place on Monday,

5 the 18th.

6 MR. LAWRENCE: And supposing they take a day or two - and I have

7 no idea how long they will take, but supposing they take a day or

8 two - what would be the Court's intention about ruling on them before the

9 Defence cases are called? I don't see anything in the Rules which says

10 anything like this will be a seven-day delay whilst the matter is being

11 considered, but it does occur to me that if the ruling does not

12 immediately follow, then any defendant who may be calling evidence would

13 be in a somewhat difficult position calling evidence, not knowing whether

14 the submission of no case, or the motion under Rule 98, had been

15 successful or not. I wonder if the Tribunal could give some indication to

16 us about its timing in those circumstances.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld?

19 MR. RYNEVELD: The reason I raised the issue when I did, and the

20 reason that I referred to the two-week break, is that my understanding of

21 Rule 98 bis is that if the Prosecution is to close its case on Friday,

22 June the 1st, my friends would have seven days within which to file their

23 motion, then I take it we would have time to respond, and so the documents

24 would all be available to the Court when we return. That was what I was

25 getting at, and if we waited until following the break before we did that,

Page 3871

1 my concern was we'd have a seven-day break problem, which is why we have

2 been doing our utmost in order to not have the matters delayed by a

3 further time delay. Yes, and my colleague just reminded me, this talks

4 about filing. I don't know, of course, whether the Court anticipates oral

5 arguments or not oral arguments, but that's why we are raising them now

6 because the Court might want to address us on those issues next week.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. No doubt we will. I think Sir Ivan's point

8 was slightly different. We would anticipate giving a ruling on the

9 submissions under Rule 98 as quickly as possible. We may even give an

10 oral decision with a written decision to follow, so that in any event the

11 Defence would know well in advance as to whether it will be called on to

12 present a case.

13 MR. LAWRENCE: If I may say so, if you gave a ruling orally, would

14 there be time then for the Defence to get all its witnesses here and

15 organise the logistics, or are we expected to do that in case the

16 application fails? I'm not quite sure what the situation is, and I would

17 be very grateful if the Court could give some indication to us.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you would have to be in a state of

19 readiness, if the application doesn't succeed.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.

21 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour may have spotted me reaching for my rule

22 book when we last raised this issue. I was somewhat puzzled as to how we

23 were going to do the logistics of it, but I'm slightly more concerned

24 now. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Your Honours come back and

25 you agree with some propositions, don't agree with other propositions that

Page 3872

1 the Defence had put forward. That, of course -- and we are then expected

2 immediately after an oral decision to get up and either make an opening

3 statement or call evidence. I really do think we ought to have an

4 opportunity to digest whatever it is you have said and alter, for example,

5 our preparations for what we might say by way of an opening statement,

6 which, for example, if you cut out genocide, would radically alter what we

7 have to say, and may well alter the witnesses we are going to call. So we

8 would need some time, I think, to digest the decision.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Have you decided whether you're going to make the

10 submission, Mr. Greaves?

11 MR. GREAVES: I think it is likely that we will do so in respect

12 of count 1. We may do so in respect of other counts or, rather, with

13 respect to other issues which are raised as part of a count.

14 JUDGE MAY: All this makes it imperative that we finish this next

15 Friday. Speaking for myself, we will have to sit the necessary hours if

16 cross-examination is prolonged.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic?

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Honour, I should

19 like to add that this Defence team also intends to make some filings.

20 This is just for the sake of information and scheduling.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we will determine these matters more

23 conclusively next week, no doubt in advance of the conclusion of the

24 Prosecution's case, which we anticipate to be on Friday.

25 We are adjourned until Monday at 9.30

Page 3873

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

2 4.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday the 28th day

3 of May, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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