Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4418

1 Wednesday, 27 June 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, you're to begin the presentation of

6 your case.

7 MR. GREAVES: Yes. There is a matter I'd like to raise both on

8 behalf of myself and indeed of the Prosecution arising out of last week's

9 proceedings, if I may, please.

10 Your Honours will recall the issue that we raised about the

11 torture counts and whether or not you had to deal with those, and Your

12 Honours gave a very, very short oral ruling in relation to those counts.

13 I looked again at the indictment and in particular at paragraph 37, which

14 by reference incorporates within counts 3 to 5 all the other counts, and

15 the phrase that is used is "including those described in paragraphs 43 to

16 50 below." What the Prosecution and I need to know for the purposes of

17 writing final briefs and making final argument is whether we have to

18 address in those final briefs and documents the counts which follow counts

19 3 to 5. I hope it isn't me being extremely stupid as a result of Your

20 Honours' ruling last week, and if it is, I apologise, but --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will take that into consideration,

22 Mr. Greaves.

23 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

25 MR. GREAVES: And I spoke yesterday with the Prosecution and I

Page 4419

1 know they also would seek the same clarification.

2 I turn now to very briefly address you about the nature of the

3 Defence case which will be called on behalf of Dusko Sikirica, but before

4 I do so, can I present the compliments of Mr. Londrovic who is not going

5 to be here until the first break? He apologises for his absence. I'm

6 sure that Your Honours will forgive him for that.

7 The case involving Dusko Sikirica will deal in essence with six

8 different features of the case. The first two witnesses from whom you

9 will hear in the case relate to essentially the issue of conditions within

10 Keraterm camp. The first two witnesses will deal with in particular the

11 provision of food at Keraterm, how that was done, where the food came from

12 and the nature of that food.

13 There will then be a group of witnesses who come from the hospital

14 in Prijedor. Most of those are going to give evidence without any form of

15 protection at all. They deal with the period in August 1992 when, as has

16 been asserted, Dusko Sikirica ceased to have any connection with Keraterm,

17 that taking place at the end of July 1992, and was assigned to guarding

18 duties at Prijedor hospital. And you will hear from a number of witnesses

19 who deal with Dusko Sikirica's presence at Prijedor hospital and, in

20 particular, how they are able to fix the date when he arrived because he

21 was responsible physically for bringing into the hospital a particular

22 piece of equipment.

23 You will then deal with a single witness who, like some of the

24 Prosecution witnesses, was a detainee in Keraterm camp but at the very

25 beginning, at the very opening of that camp, someone who was there for a

Page 4420

1 number of days and one of those who was released from Prijedor camp,

2 having been interrogated by the authorities.

3 There will then be three character witnesses who will deal with

4 the character of Dusko Sikirica, how they knew him from some considerable

5 time ago, and in particular, they will deal with his attitude towards

6 members of other ethnic groups, other nationalities, in Bosnia before the

7 war and before the change in political life took place.

8 There will then be a single witness who deals with an allegation

9 made by an early witness in the Prosecution case, an allegation that Dusko

10 Sikirica casually shot somebody close to the weigh hut, he having just

11 received goods from a friend of his, and it is the friend from whom you

12 will hear. And the Defence say that in relation to that particular

13 witness, it not only raises a reasonable doubt as to the taking place of

14 that alleged murder, but we say demonstrates that it simply did not happen

15 at all.

16 Finally, there will be two witnesses, the first of whom who will

17 deal with the assignment of Dusko Sikirica and others to the checkpoint,

18 of which we have heard somewhat in the case, the checkpoint at Hambarine.

19 The witness is a former reserve police officer who at the time, May 1992,

20 was responsible for maintaining rosters in relation to what work was to be

21 done by each individual reserve police officer working out of Prijedor II

22 police station.

23 The second aspect with which he will deal will be the issue of the

24 assignment of Dusko Sikirica to Keraterm, and in particular, what duties,

25 what powers he had upon his assignment to that place. Further, he will

Page 4421

1 deal with the individual about whom we have heard in the case during the

2 Prosecution's case, Zivko Knezevic, and how he was in command of Prijedor

3 II police station and how, in effect, he kept in his hands control of all

4 meaningful matters in relation to Keraterm.

5 Having spoken very briefly to the Prosecution yesterday and today,

6 I anticipate that the first group of witnesses may well go quite quickly,

7 and that will take us -- those are what I would call the conditions and

8 hospital witnesses, and so it's possible we may finish slightly early this

9 week. Our next group of witnesses arrives at the weekend. So it may be

10 that that's slightly bad planning by me, but I anticipate that we in fact

11 will finish probably by close of business on Friday of next week, I would

12 hope. I hope that's of use to Your Honour.

13 I call the first witness.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Your Honour, before my friend calls his first

16 witness, I do believe there is an outstanding motion with respect to

17 protective measures, and I don't know --

18 MR. GREAVES: There is, and I'm grateful to my learned friend for

19 reminding me, and I had completely forgotten that. Your Honour, before

20 the witness comes in, there is an application in respect of her to have

21 protection in the following way: that she be granted a pseudonym, that she

22 be able to give her evidence subject to both face and voice distortion.

23 Your Honour, you have the summary indicating what she did and what work

24 she did. She is extremely apprehensive as to the potential consequences

25 of being identified as someone who worked in Keraterm at one of its most

Page 4422

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4423

1 difficult parts of its history, and for those reasons she has requested

2 that she be granted the measures which are sought.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Needless to say, the Prosecution agrees that, where

5 appropriate, protective measures ought to be granted. We, in fact, have

6 been requesting protective measures where we deemed it was important as

7 well. My only concern is whether or not there is a need for voice

8 distortion, and although I take no position on whatever appropriate

9 measures the Court may deem to be necessary in order to protect the

10 identity of witnesses, I just do not know whether in these instances voice

11 distortion is a requirement. That may depend on the circumstances in each

12 individual case. I'm not here to question my friend as to what the

13 particular issues are, but that may be something that the Court may want

14 to make an inquiry about. I do not oppose. I simply raise the question

15 as to whether or not, other than a pseudonym and facial distortion, we

16 need to actually go into voice distortion as well.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: That has been the run-of-the-mill protection;

18 pseudonym and facial distortion.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Correct, including Prosecution witnesses, and we

20 have tried to minimise the -- not minimise, but provide adequate

21 protection and yet to have the proceedings as open as possible. As I say,

22 I'm not opposing. I do not want to be opposing. I'm raising the issue as

23 to the necessity of voice distortion, and that's all.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves.

25 MR. GREAVES: Yes. The objective of protective measures, in part,

Page 4424

1 is to allow the witness to feel that when they come here, that they are

2 comfortable in the knowledge that they will be protected by the Tribunal,

3 and each witness whom we were able to see down in Prijedor had explained

4 to them what measures are available. And in each case, the request of the

5 witnesses is that which has been placed before you as to what they felt

6 comfortable with which would enable them to come here and give evidence.

7 I note that it's not an objection by the Prosecution in respect of this

8 witness. That is how she felt comfortable enough to come here and give

9 evidence; in the knowledge that she could have those protective measures

10 granted to her.

11 On the second point, I make this observation: The Defence have a

12 large number of witnesses for whom no protection is sought at all,

13 probably a greater proportion of its witnesses than the Prosecution, and

14 so, yes, there is a considerable openness in that respect.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will grant the protection in the terms

17 sought.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 THE REGISTRAR: The witness pseudonym will be DA.

20 MR. GREAVES: I'm not expecting this witness. I'm expecting a

21 female witness with this name.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 [The witness entered court]

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 4425

1 WITNESS: WITNESS DA

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may be seated.

4 MR. GREAVES: Can we, for the purposes of establishing her name,

5 please go into -- very briefly into closed session, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, closed session.

7 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

8 [Private session]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 Thank you very much, Your Honour. We can go into open session,

Page 4426

1 please.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Open session.

3 [Open session]

4 MR. GREAVES:

5 Q. Witness DA, I'd like to ask you, please, about your employment

6 from August 1987. In August 1987, did you commence work at a factory in

7 Prijedor called Keraterm?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when you commenced work at Keraterm, what job were you doing?

10 A. [redacted]

11 Q. And in May 1992, did you -- were you still working in that

12 position?

13 A. Yes, we did.

14 Q. Do you recall the period when armed clashes, fighting, began in

15 Prijedor in May 1992?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When the fighting started, did you remain at work or was there a

18 period when you did not go to Keraterm?

19 A. For several days, we did not go to work. The morning when it

20 started to happen, they came for us to take us along so that we could go

21 to work.

22 Q. Witness DA, how -- who was it who came to ask you to go along to

23 go back to work?

24 A. My boss came, and Mirko Mudrinic, and a man called Dzelalija.

25 Q. And what was the name of your boss?

Page 4427

1 A. [redacted]

2 Q. When you returned to work at Keraterm, had detainees by that time

3 arrived at the facility?

4 A. Yes, there were already detainees there. We were offered to work

5 again to prepare food for these detainees.

6 Q. And can you help us about this; when you first returned to work,

7 were you able to assess how many detainees were present at Keraterm?

8 A. Because this was at the very beginning, there weren't that many of

9 them. I couldn't tell you exactly, but there would have been about 100

10 men. I couldn't tell you exactly. I did not know the exact count.

11 Q. Were you engaged in serving food to those detainees?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And from where did the food come that you served to the

14 detainees?

15 A. At first, that is the first two or three days, we prepared some

16 food ourselves. However, later on, as the number of arrivals grew, we

17 could no longer prepare the food because we did not have capabilities for

18 that, so from the mining cafeteria, food was transported to us.

19 Q. After a few days, did the number of detainees at Keraterm

20 increase? And if so, can you estimate to what number?

21 A. Well, frankly speaking, I don't know the exact number. We

22 distributed the food that arrived. The number of detainees did grow but I

23 did not know exactly how many did arrive.

24 Q. The food which came from outside Keraterm, how was it

25 transported? Can you tell us that, please.

Page 4428

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4429

1 A. Yes. I don't know. Probably by van. Some men would bring the

2 food to the door. I think that there were some men in a van. I don't

3 know, they probably were military. In any case, they would bring it to us

4 and leave it there and then we would distribute it.

5 Q. And in what sort of containers did the food arrive?

6 A. The food arrived in thermos containers. It was hermetically

7 sealed; in other words, it was protected from losing its heat.

8 Q. And when it arrived, was it taken to the canteen or taken

9 somewhere else at Keraterm?

10 A. At the entrance to the kitchen, the entrance we used to go in, we

11 had some tables there, and that's where we put the food; and they would

12 come there, stand in a queue, approach us, take food, and go to eat it.

13 Q. Witness DA, I'd like you to look, please, at I think it's

14 Prosecution Exhibit 2, some photographs of Keraterm. Would you first of

15 all just look through the bundle of photographs that is being placed in

16 front of you, and if you can find a photograph where the site from which

17 the food was distributed is shown, could you then ask for that to be put

18 on the ELMO, which is to your left. If you look through, there are other

19 photographs which may show it better.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the witness.

21 MR. GREAVES: Could you put the microphone on, please.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

23 microphone.

24 A. Here.

25 MR. GREAVES:

Page 4430

1 Q. Right. Would you put that, please, onto -- the usher will put it

2 onto the ELMO, and if you could then use the pointer to indicate on that

3 photograph where the food was served, please. You have to point to the

4 photograph.

5 A. It's here, inside, when you go through the door. We were inside

6 and they were outside. They were outside, and we distributed food to them

7 and they would go out.

8 Q. Were you able to examine the quality of the food which you were

9 serving?

10 A. The quality was medium quality. It was neither bad food nor

11 especially good food. For the conditions prevailing at the time, it was

12 normal.

13 Q. And could you describe to us, Witness DA, please, what type of

14 food, what sort of food it was, please.

15 A. It was food cooked in a big pot, so it was cooked food. And it

16 was quite thin. In our part of the world, when you cook in a big pot,

17 it's a kind of stew, and it contained vegetables, macaroni, rice, cabbage,

18 whatever. That's the way we cook in our part of the world: food like

19 that.

20 Q. Did it contain any meat; and if so, was it every day that it

21 contained meat or --

22 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. There wasn't a lot. There was small

23 pieces of meat, but there was some.

24 Q. And can you describe the process by which each detainee would

25 receive his meal?

Page 4431

1 A. They would come there, stand in a queue, and they would take the

2 food one by one. We poured it into bowls for them. And the bread was cut

3 up, so they would take some bread and take a bowl and go outside and eat

4 there.

5 Q. You described bread being served to them. How much bread was

6 served to each detainee?

7 A. Well, at the beginning, while I was there - because I wasn't

8 working there the whole time - they could take two or three slices each,

9 depending on how much they asked for. Afterwards, I don't know what it

10 was like, because I wasn't there all the time, but while I was there, they

11 could take as much bread -- well, two or three slices. That's how much we

12 would give them.

13 Q. Witness DA, how long did you remain at Keraterm doing this

14 particular job?

15 A. Approximately 20 days, not more, and then I asked my boss to

16 release me because I had some problems at home, so she let me go and then

17 a colleague of ours who used to work with us continued working with her.

18 Q. You've spoken earlier of the conditions prevailing at the time.

19 Were there, over the summer period, May to August 1992, were there food

20 shortages in Prijedor?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What sort of commodities were notably in short supply in Prijedor

23 over that period?

24 A. Well, in the beginning, we used what we had at home. We couldn't

25 go out much in the beginning. And then, later on, it was more normal. It

Page 4432

1 was possible to get food if one had money. If one had money, one could

2 get everything. But in the beginning, well, we had to find ways to manage

3 because we couldn't go about much.

4 Q. Were you aware of detainees receiving any other food from outside

5 the camp?

6 A. Yes. They could have food brought to them, and somebody probably

7 received that food and distributed it to them. I don't know exactly, but

8 I do know that at the time I was there at the beginning, they were able to

9 get food from outside. Later, I don't know.

10 Q. And how did you become aware that detainees were able to receive

11 food from outside?

12 A. From friends, from those who received food. They would even ask

13 me to tell a neighbour to bring some food.

14 Q. And did you pass those requests on, as you had been asked?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. And did those people, as far as you know, then bring food to the

17 people who had requested it?

18 A. I personally didn't see it, but I think they did. I didn't see it

19 myself.

20 Q. During the period that you were working at Keraterm, that you've

21 described, serving food to detainees, were you able also to see anything

22 of the water supply at Keraterm?

23 A. At that time, there was water. They had water in the compound, a

24 tap. The water supply was normal. If there were water shortages, then

25 water was brought in in tank trucks, so there was water.

Page 4433

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4434

1 Q. When you were engaged in distributing food to the detainees, how

2 long did that process take each day?

3 A. At the very beginning, while I was working there, I would work for

4 two or three hours at a time. That's how long I would spend there.

5 Q. Were there ever occasions when there was insufficient food for all

6 the detainees?

7 A. Well, maybe, because people were arriving all the time, brought in

8 in buses, so it was possible that someone was left without food.

9 Q. If there was a problem of any kind in relation to your job, to

10 whom would you speak in order to resolve that problem?

11 A. I spoke to my boss. She was the only one I could turn to. There

12 was no one else I spoke to.

13 Q. And help me about this, please, Witness DA: Do you know or did

14 you know at the time, a man called Dusko Sikirica?

15 A. No. I never knew anyone personally. I didn't.

16 MR. GREAVES: Witness DA, would you wait there, please, and answer

17 any questions from my learned friends.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

19 MR. GREAVES: The Defence may come first before the Prosecution.

20 We admire my learned friend's enthusiasm for the job but she must wait, I

21 think.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Any cross-examination, Mr. Rodic?

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Honour, just a few

24 questions.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

Page 4435

1 Q. Mrs. DA, during your testimony, when answering the questions put

2 to you by my learned colleague Mr. Greaves, you mentioned that only during

3 the first few days did you prepare food in Keraterm. Afterwards, it was

4 brought from the canteen in the mine?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you explain to us what the mine canteen was; where it was,

7 what it was.

8 A. In our town, the mine canteen was a socially-owned enterprise

9 where the miners used to eat.

10 Q. How far is that from the Keraterm camp compound, approximately?

11 A. Well, it's perhaps a kilometre or a kilometre and a half,

12 something like that.

13 Q. Could we say that the mine canteen was in the centre of Prijedor?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Answering the questions put to you by Mr. Greaves, you said that

16 when the war broke out, you had only what you had at home to eat, but

17 later on, if one had money, one could buy food. Could you tell us, that

18 period that you described as the beginning, when you were using the stores

19 you had at home, can you tell us how long this period lasted? For

20 example, starting in May or June 1992 until when? When could we say that

21 this period ended and that supplies became more regular or better

22 organised?

23 A. I don't know what to say. How long? How much time passed? Well,

24 I think it wasn't long. It wasn't long, but I couldn't tell you exactly.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. In answer to the question about water,

Page 4436

1 since you worked in Keraterm even before this period, that is May 1992,

2 could you please tell us, in the factory compound, in the Keraterm

3 building - I'm talking about the building now - the taps that existed in

4 the building, the water flowing from these taps, was it fit for drinking?

5 Was it drinkable water?

6 A. I think it was. We didn't have any other kind of water. We had a

7 tap in the compound which was used, and probably in the dormitories. I

8 didn't go inside there, but it was all normal, potable water.

9 Q. Did you drink this water too?

10 A. Yes, because we were working there.

11 Q. You also said, in answer to questions, that in the period while

12 you were working there in Keraterm, people arrived every day, fresh

13 numbers of people arrived.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us something about the distribution of food? Was it

16 always the detainees from the same room who queued up for the food?

17 A. I don't know. I think that when people arrived -- I don't know

18 whether it was always the same people. I'm not sure. I think that as

19 they arrived, they stood in the queue to receive food. And whether there

20 was some sort of system where it was fixed, I don't think so. I don't

21 really know, but I don't think there was.

22 Q. In the small room that you showed us on the photograph where you

23 were and from where you distributed food, was there a bread-slicing

24 machine?

25 A. Yes, there was, but we didn't use it much because there were power

Page 4437

1 cuts sometimes, so we would slice the bread by hand. And in the

2 beginning, while there weren't many people, we sliced it by hand, using a

3 knife.

4 Q. When the number of people increased, did any of the detainees help

5 you to cut bread?

6 A. While I was working there -- well, maybe later on, after I left,

7 but in the beginning, there were the two of us and there was no need.

8 Then probably later on, when there were more people, when my colleague

9 came to work, then probably that happened, but while I was there, there

10 was no need for that.

11 Q. And one brief question to finish: When we were talking about the

12 miners' canteen in the centre of town of Prijedor, from where food

13 arrived, that mining canteen, did it belong to the Keraterm plant or did

14 it belong to some other company or enterprise?

15 A. Well, it belonged to the mine, and that's where they prepared food

16 for their employees. We did not have anything to do with them. We had

17 our food and they prepared food for their people.

18 Q. The mine canteen, did it belong to the Omarska mine? I'm

19 talking -- sorry, the Ljubija, the Ljubija iron ore mine.

20 A. Yes. Yes. They had their own kitchen in Omarska, and this was

21 there for their employees working in town, working in offices in the town.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answers.

23 I have finished, Your Honours. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

25 Mr. Ostojic.

Page 4438

1 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I just have a couple of

2 questions.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:

4 Q. Ma'am, with respect to the food that you were providing to the

5 detainees for the 20 or so days that you were at Keraterm, can you tell us

6 if that food came every day?

7 A. Yes, every day.

8 Q. Can you also tell the Court, if you remember, whether the water

9 that was brought from time to time at the camp, whether it was plentiful?

10 A. I think there was water. I think there was enough. I don't know,

11 but I think there was enough water. We had enough while we were there.

12 Q. Did you yourself also drink the same water that was available for

13 the detainees?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. If you remember, [redacted]

16 [redacted] can you tell us the length of time

17 that the detainees had to eat the food that was provided to them?

18 A. Well, we stayed there -- well, probably as the numbers grew, we

19 stayed there until about 3.00, approximately, so they had probably 15 or

20 20 minutes to finish.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. That's all I have.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness DA, you told Mr. Ostojic that you drank

23 the same water as the detainees. Did you eat the same food as the

24 detainees?

25 THE WITNESS: We could eat it. We could eat the same food as they

Page 4439

1 did.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. My question was: Did you eat the same food

3 as the detainees, not whether you could eat it. ?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. Yes, I did.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly.

6 Cross-examined by Ms. Baly:

7 Q. Witness DA, did the guards in the camp eat the same food as the

8 detainees?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. It's the case, Witness DA, that the detainees were fed only once

11 per day. That's correct, isn't it?

12 A. Yes. Yes, because food arrived only once a day.

13 Q. You indicated in your evidence that when you first began

14 distributing the food, there were about 100 detainees in the camp and that

15 there was an increase. Would you say that that increase was a dramatic

16 increase in the number of detainees who arrived at the camp?

17 A. Well, it grew day by day. I couldn't tell you exactly. I didn't

18 know much about it, but the number did increase, yes. Sometimes more,

19 sometimes less, but it did increase.

20 Q. How many detainees would you estimate were in the camp at the time

21 you left, that is, on the 20th of June?

22 A. Well, in my estimation, there were probably about 300 or 400

23 people.

24 Q. Is it the case that the amount of food to be distributed did not

25 increase in accordance with the number of detainees who were brought into

Page 4440

1 the camp?

2 A. Yes. I think that as they arrived, it's possible that when there

3 wasn't enough food -- it's possible that such a thing happened if, after

4 the meal, people were brought in or -- I don't know. But mostly care was

5 taken that they would be provided with a meal.

6 Q. Sometimes the food ran out and detainees, some detainees, didn't

7 receive any food during a day; that's correct, isn't it, Witness DA?

8 A. As far as I know, I don't know, but it could have happened. It's

9 possible. Probably, as I said, if -- if they arrived after the meal when

10 we had gone home already or if someone was brought in afterwards, then

11 it's possible that they were left without food, but they could get food.

12 They could have it brought to them. They could receive food.

13 Q. When you say "they could have it brought to them," you mean they

14 could have it brought to them from people outside the camp? Is that what

15 you mean?

16 A. Yes. They could receive it from one of their own, if that was an

17 issue. Yes, they could receive that food.

18 Q. You've indicated, Witness DA, that there was a line, a queue, of

19 detainees who would come to you and you would distribute the food. It's

20 the case, isn't it, that sometimes all of those in the line would not

21 receive food, the food would run out before the line was completed?

22 That's the case, isn't it, Witness DA?

23 A. While I worked there, that did not happen, but I don't know what

24 was happening after I left.

25 Q. The food, would you agree, could be described as a watery soup?

Page 4441

1 Would you agree with that description?

2 A. I wouldn't agree with that. The food was not especially good but

3 it was not watery either. It was of medium quality, given the

4 circumstances, and in those circumstances, it was regular.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness DA, what do you mean by "given the

6 circumstances"? What circumstances?

7 THE WITNESS: I mean what happened there. There were people --

8 that is, given the circumstances for cooking for such people. It was

9 regular. It wasn't of extra quality but I think it was all right.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: You mean, then, given the circumstances in which

11 the detainees found themselves at Keraterm? Is that what you mean?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly.

14 MS. BALY:

15 Q. You began to distribute this food shortly after the camp was

16 established, so that you were able to observe the first arrivals, so to

17 speak, in the camp; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you observed these men over a period of 20 days; that's

20 correct, isn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you notice that the men were losing weight and losing weight

23 dramatically?

24 A. You know something, the environment in which we were, I myself was

25 losing weight by simply observing what was going on around me, in the

Page 4442

1 environment that we found ourselves in, the circumstances under which we

2 lived, of course. We were all losing weight. I too lost weight while

3 working there, and while observing what was going on.

4 Q. You, of course, were able to eat when you were outside the camp as

5 well; that's correct, isn't it?

6 A. Of course, when I would come home.

7 Q. The detainees were in a dirty and unkept state; that's correct,

8 isn't it?

9 A. I think that there was enough water for them to wash. I think

10 that was provided for them. I did not observe that -- that they were

11 especially dirty. I think that that was not the case, because there was

12 enough water.

13 Q. Are you saying, Witness DA, that the detainees appeared to you to

14 be in a clean state? Is that what you're saying?

15 A. Well, again, given the circumstances there, of course, I mean they

16 were not especially dirty. They did not work either. They were just held

17 there.

18 Q. Insofar as the state of the detainees is concerned, what

19 significance do you attach to the fact that they did not work?

20 A. I mean they simply stayed there. They had enough water to wash if

21 they needed to. I believe that there was no need for them to be dirty.

22 This is my opinion.

23 Q. The question I asked you is: Were they, in fact, dirty?

24 A. No. According to me, they were not.

25 Q. Witness DA, did you observe any injuries on any of the detainees

Page 4443

1 whom you served?

2 A. It did happen when they arrived that one could see some bruises on

3 some individuals.

4 Q. What do you mean by "when they arrived"? Arrived where?

5 A. When they arrived at Keraterm, when they appeared, I did observe

6 that some of them had some bruises on their faces or things like that.

7 Q. You were, in fact, serving this food from inside this kitchen

8 area; that's correct, isn't it?

9 A. Yes -- no. It was -- we placed tables outside so that they could

10 approach us more easily to take food, because the kitchen was on the top

11 floor. We had to go downstairs so that we would be closer to them, to

12 distribute it to them.

13 Q. And the circumstances in which you able to observe these detainees

14 were such that you -- they were in the line, queueing up for food, and you

15 were serving them the food; that's correct, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So how was it that you were able to tell that these detainees whom

18 you say were bruised had -- were recent arrivals in the camp? How could

19 you tell that?

20 A. Well, perhaps I did not see them on that day, but I would see them

21 the next day, and I would see that some of them had some bruises perhaps.

22 Q. You indicated that -- I think you said they had 15 minutes to

23 consume their food. Isn't it the case, Witness DA, that --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- they had a lot less time than that? They, in fact, had a very

Page 4444

1 tight time limit and they would be taken out of the line and beaten while

2 they were queueing for food; isn't that the case?

3 A. Well, I don't know that. I did not see that. It did not happen

4 in front of me so that I really did not observe that. I don't know that

5 anybody did that.

6 Q. But you were able to observe the line of detainees who were

7 queueing, weren't you, Witness DA?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are you saying that you never saw any of the detainees taken out

10 of the line and beaten?

11 A. No. I never saw that.

12 Q. Did you know the names of any of the guards at Keraterm?

13 A. No, I did not know that. They were in camouflage uniforms. They

14 were wearing sunglasses. I did not know these men at all.

15 Q. Did you ever observe a guard who had long hair and carried a

16 baseball bat and was referred to as Cupo?

17 A. No. They were around, but I really did not know anyone.

18 Q. Did you know a person by the name of Zoran Zigic?

19 A. I knew him because he lived near us. [redacted]

20 [redacted] But no, I did not notice him. I simply did not

21 pay much attention to who was there, what, but I did know him from before,

22 from the neighbourhood.

23 Q. Witness DA, Zoran Zigic would come to the camp and take people out

24 of the food queue and beat them. That's correct, isn't it?

25 A. I did not see that.

Page 4445

1 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Zigic in the camp?

2 A. I may have met him accidentally in passing when we would come in,

3 but I did not see him doing anything.

4 Q. What do you mean by, "I may have met him accidentally"?

5 A. When we would come to work, we saw him there.

6 Q. What was he doing when he was in the camp?

7 A. I don't know that either, what he did. I would come, do my job,

8 and did not see what anyone was doing really. I wasn't interested in

9 that. It was their job.

10 Q. You had an opportunity to observe what was going on in the camp,

11 didn't you, Witness DA?

12 A. I did have an opportunity, but I came to do my work, and when we

13 would finish it, we would go home, so that I really don't know what went

14 on there. While we worked, nothing happened; and after that, I don't

15 know. In front of us, while we worked there, nothing happened.

16 Q. Why do you say that you don't know what happened afterwards? Do

17 you suspect that something happened to the prisoners or the detainees

18 after you left? Is that why you say that?

19 A. I don't know. I really cannot tell you anything. I did not see

20 anything that I can tell you about, and I don't know about other things.

21 I cannot tell you about things that I don't know; I just cannot.

22 Q. It was very hot at that time, wasn't it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And your evidence is that there was one tap, apart from the water

25 tank, to service the detainees; is that right?

Page 4446

1 A. They were in rooms. I imagine they had water there. I never

2 entered those rooms. But I know that there was a tap on the perimeter,

3 and I really cannot tell you anything else. I did not enter those rooms

4 to see what they had in there. That was not part of my job, so I cannot

5 tell you anything about that. My job was to distribute food and to go

6 home.

7 Q. If you didn't enter the rooms, why do you say that you imagine

8 there was a tap in there or there was water in the rooms, if you didn't go

9 into the rooms?

10 A. Well, probably if they had water -- I don't know. As I said, I

11 never entered there. I don't know. I know that there was water. I

12 cannot say that they didn't have water, but I did not enter there, so I

13 don't know what they had in there. I know that there was enough water.

14 On the perimeter there was water. Anybody could use it.

15 Q. You don't know, Witness DA, what access or what permission the

16 detainees had to access that tap, do you?

17 A. That I really don't know. As I said, I went there to do my work.

18 When I would finish, I would go home, and I don't know what else was going

19 on and who was doing it, who was in charge of it. I don't know.

20 Q. Witness DA, would you accept a proposition that you turned a blind

21 eye to what was going on in the camp? Would you accept that?

22 A. I said that I did not have an opportunity to do anything. I

23 wanted to go home. And of course, I also did not have a wish to do that.

24 Q. A wish to do what?

25 A. I did not have interest to go in there to look who had water,

Page 4447

1 whether they had it or not, because I assumed that it was somebody else's

2 job. I did my job and went home, so that I really cannot tell you

3 anything about that.

4 Q. You indicated that if you had problems, you would speak to your

5 boss. Did you have occasion to do that during the time that you were

6 working?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you ever say to your boss that the numbers of detainees were

9 increasing but there was a shortage of food?

10 A. Well, she worked alongside with me.

11 Q. Do you know, Witness DA, that at the same time the Keraterm

12 detention camp was operating, the Omarska detention camp was operating?

13 Do you know that?

14 A. I only heard of its existence.

15 Q. Do you know where the food came from that was taken to Omarska?

16 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

17 MS. BALY: Would Your Honour just pardon me for a moment?

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 MS. BALY:

20 Q. Witness DA, you had no control over how the prison -- how the

21 detainees were taken from their rooms or called from their rooms and

22 allowed to queue for the food, did you?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. So you don't know whether some of the detainees were left in their

25 rooms without food, do you?

Page 4448

1 A. I don't know that, no, I didn't know that.

2 Q. Did you know any of the detainees?

3 A. Some I did know from the company where I used to work. Some I

4 knew from sight. There were a lot of people that I knew, because we would

5 pass by each other. We lived in the same town.

6 Q. So you know, Witness DA, that there were only Muslims and Croats

7 detained there; that's correct, isn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you, Witness DA, fear some retaliation from the Serbs at home

10 for testifying here?

11 A. I think that I have nothing to fear. I did nothing -- I think

12 that I only did some good by distributing food, and if that is a sin, to

13 feed someone, that is, then I would have reason for fear. As it is, I

14 don't. I think that I have no reason to fear anything.

15 MS. BALY: Thank you.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Baly.

17 Mr. Greaves?

18 MR. GREAVES: I have no re-examination. Do any of Your Honours

19 have questions for the witness, please?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: No.

21 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness DA, that concludes your testimony and you

23 are released.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves, your next witness?

Page 4449

1 MR. GREAVES: I was going to suggest starting the break slightly

2 early and finishing it slightly early, and then -- rather than just having

3 a few words from the witness and then breaking it off. Would that be

4 convenient?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes. We will take the break and resume at

6 25 minutes after 11.00.

7 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.55 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.

11 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, in respect of the next witness, there

12 is an application of exactly the same nature as the last witness, and I

13 would ask that she be granted those measures of protection, please.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but please outline the grounds.

15 MR. GREAVES: Yes. What I've indicated is the grounds are the

16 same as the last witness's. She too, having had explained to her the

17 basis upon which protection could be granted, indicated that she wished to

18 have protection. She was concerned about potential repercussions if she

19 was identified as having been in any way part of the arrangements at

20 Keraterm during 1992, whether it be from her own community or from the

21 other communities that were involved in the conflict in Prijedor in 1992.

22 And having had the measures explained to her, she indicated that she would

23 feel comfortable, only feel comfortable, if she had the benefit of

24 pseudonym, face distortion, and voice distortion.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 4450

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see that there is no objection from the

2 Prosecution. The measures are granted.

3 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for the witness will be DB.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let the witness make the declaration.

6 WITNESS: WITNESS DB

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may be seated.

11 MR. GREAVES: May we please go into closed session briefly while I

12 establish her name, please.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

14 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. We can go into open session, please.

Page 4451

1 [Open session]

2 MR. GREAVES:

3 Q. Witness DB, can you help us about this? Were you employed at

4 Keraterm in the occupation of cook in the 1980s?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When did you start working at Keraterm?

7 A. I couldn't tell you exactly. I worked in the Electrokeramika

8 complex in Ljubija, in Prijedor, in Selena, and at Keraterm. So we passed

9 from one plant to another, and it was all a single company, in fact.

10 Q. Approximately when did you start working at Keraterm?

11 A. Well, I worked there for about three years, I think, but I can't

12 tell you the date or the year. I don't remember that.

13 Q. Were you still working at Keraterm in May 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When the armed fighting -- the fighting started in the Prijedor

16 area in May 1992, did there come a time when you ceased to go temporarily

17 to Keraterm?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And for how long did that period last when you stopped going to

20 Keraterm?

21 A. Two or three months.

22 Q. When you next returned to Keraterm, was it still as a cook that

23 you went there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And when you next returned to Keraterm, had the function of

Page 4452

1 Keraterm by now changed from being a factory into being a place where

2 people were being detained?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you returned for the first time after this period, can you

5 say approximately how many detainees were there upon your return?

6 A. Up to a thousand.

7 Q. Was it your job at that time to distribute food to the detainees?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you go to Keraterm every day in order to carry out that

10 function?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And on each day, at what time would you go to Keraterm?

13 A. Well, approximately from 2.00 until we finished, and it lasted for

14 three or four hours.

15 Q. The food which was distributed to the detainees, was that cooked

16 on the premises or was it brought in from somewhere else?

17 A. It wasn't cooked on the premises. It was brought in, I think from

18 the mining company canteen.

19 Q. And in what sort of containers was the food brought in to

20 Keraterm?

21 A. Well, it was sort of thermos flask but very, very big.

22 Q. During your period when you worked distributing food at Keraterm,

23 did you receive any pay from the company which was -- which had formerly

24 run the Keraterm factory?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4453

1 Q. Was it your normal salary or was -- were you paid in some other

2 way?

3 A. Normal salary.

4 Q. How many -- apart from yourself, how many other people were

5 engaged in distributing the food to the prisoners?

6 A. When I was there, there was another woman.

7 Q. Apart from the food in the containers which you have described,

8 was there any bread provided to the detainees?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And was that in the form of ordinary loaves that were sliced?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were the loaves sliced at Keraterm or did they come ready-sliced?

13 A. We cut them in Keraterm.

14 Q. When you say, "We cut them," was that you and your colleague or

15 did the detainees have anything to do with it, or was there a machine?

16 Help us about that.

17 A. We did have a machine. When there was power, we used the

18 machine. When there was no electricity, four of the detainees helped us.

19 Q. Whereabouts was the food distributed from: inside the building or

20 outside the building?

21 A. In front of the building.

22 Q. And can you help us about this: Did the detainees form a queue in

23 order to receive their food?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did they have a bowl or did you give them a bowl of any kind,

Page 4454

1 or a plate?

2 A. We had our factory bowls from our canteen. They would take them

3 and then stand in a queue.

4 Q. The food which you served to the detainees, can you describe,

5 please, what the quality of that food was?

6 A. Well, it was of medium quality.

7 Q. What typically would the food contain in terms of ingredients?

8 A. Well, it was the usual kind of stew that's normally eaten in our

9 area. There would be beans or string beans or cabbage one day, paprikas,

10 potatoes.

11 Q. And would the stew contain meat?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And would there be meat in the stew every day, or what?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. If I can just return briefly to the bread. Where did the bread

16 come from that was distributed to the detainees?

17 A. From our town bakery.

18 Q. Can you recall if the food which you were serving was also served

19 to the guards?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. During the time when the detainees were in a queue, waiting to get

22 their food, did you ever observe any mistreatment of any prisoner?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were there ever any occasions when the food ran out before the

25 queue had come to an end so that some detainees didn't get fed?

Page 4455

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How often would that happen, and can you say why it happened?

3 A. It didn't happen very often. It happened sometimes when new

4 people arrived and they had -- their arrival hadn't been planned.

5 Q. The other person who was working with you, what was that person's

6 name?

7 A. Staka Polovina.

8 Q. Can you help us, please: Was there water connected and available

9 at Keraterm during the period when you were there in that summer?

10 A. Yes. When there was water from the town water supply, it could be

11 used. Sometimes that water ran out and then water was brought in by tank

12 trucks.

13 Q. Were you able to observe detainees using water from where you

14 were?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, we know from other evidence in the case that the Keraterm

17 facility closed around the 5th of August, 1992. Did you continue up until

18 the time when it ceased to be used as a detention facility?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And did the process of food distribution and water availability,

21 did that continue until that time, 5th of August, 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Would you wait there, please.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

25 Mr. Petrovic or Mr. Rodic.

Page 4456

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

3 Q. Madam, Witness DB, I have only a few brief questions for you. You

4 said that food was transported, as you said, from "our mining company

5 canteen." Did this belong to the Keraterm company?

6 A. No. It belonged to the Ljubija iron ore company.

7 Q. Can you tell me whether, during the time you were working in

8 Keraterm, there were frequent power cuts?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In those situations, I assume that, as you said, the bread-slicing

11 machines could not operate, so detainees came to help; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In situations when there was a power cut, was there water in

14 Keraterm?

15 A. When there's no electricity, there's no water either.

16 Q. Can you describe for us what the detainees used to eat out of?

17 A. The plastic bowls that we used to serve soups to our employees in

18 the canteen, soup bowls.

19 Q. So these bowls were used before the detainees arrived in the

20 factory?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell me who told you, who spoke to you, telling you to

23 come to work in Keraterm?

24 A. I was called to go to work by my boss.

25 Q. Is that the woman you were working with?

Page 4457

1 A. Yes, Staka Polovina.

2 Q. The job you did in Keraterm distributing food, was that your work

3 obligation?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can we say, then, that on the wartime conditions, you were

6 actually mobilised to do this job?

7 A. Well, in a manner of speaking, yes.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answers.

9 Your Honours, that completes my examination, thank you.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you Mr. Rodic. Mr. Ostojic?

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:

13 Q. Witness DB, I'm going to ask you a series of questions. With

14 respect to the slicing of the bread that you testified to, I think you

15 told us that bread was sliced by you, your boss, as well as four other

16 detainees; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, at any time when the detainees were slicing the bread, did

19 you instruct them on what size to slice each piece of bread?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did anyone instruct you as to what size to slice the bread from

22 the loaves that you were cutting?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Is it fair to say that you, as well as the four detainees and your

25 boss, were slicing this loaf of bread for the detainees as you would

Page 4458

1 normally in your home before and after June and July of 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, let me ask you with respect to the food that was served at

4 the camp. You mentioned that the food was also served to the guards,

5 correct?

6 A. No, not that food. They received food from the same canteen but

7 in smaller containers, other containers.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues]... to receive the food, you just

9 separated a canteen, a thermos full of the same food that the detainees

10 were eating and segregated that in a separate section of the camp,

11 correct?

12 A. That was done by the driver who brought the food. He would leave

13 what was for the guards at the entrance gate.

14 Q. Can you tell us who would order the food for the detainees as well

15 as the guards at the camp?

16 A. I don't know that.

17 Q. Do you know whether or not the guards at any time ordered the

18 foods -- the food?

19 A. I don't think so.

20 Q. What's the basis of that? Why would you say that?

21 A. Well, I think they had no influence, just as I had no influence.

22 Q. Isn't it true, Witness DB, that, in fact, neither you nor the

23 guards had any authority in terms of ordering food for any of the

24 detainees or people involved in Keraterm camp?

25 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your question.

Page 4459

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4460

1 Q. I'm simply asking you, Witness DB, whether or not you had the

2 authority to order the food, such as from the place that you're ordering

3 the food, the type of food that was being ordered. You had no authority

4 to do that, correct?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Isn't it also true that the guards didn't have authority to decide

7 where the food would be ordered from, the type of food that would be

8 brought in, or how much food would be brought in, correct?

9 A. They couldn't.

10 Q. The water that you spoke of at the camp, did you drink any of the

11 water there at any time?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it fair to say that you drank the same water that the detainees

14 drank, correct?

15 A. Of course.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you very much, Witness DB.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

18 Ms. Baly?

19 Cross-examined by Ms. Baly:

20 Q. Witness DB, did you eat the food, the same food, as the detainees?

21 A. No, I didn't.

22 Q. Why not?

23 A. I didn't need to. I stayed there only for three or four hours,

24 and then I went home to eat.

25 Q. You were simply employed as a person to distribute the food,

Page 4461

1 correct? That was the extent of your involvement or employment at the

2 camp; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How is it that you know what the authority of the guards in the

5 camp was?

6 A. Well, I had occasion to see. If there was one kind of food for

7 the detainees, they had the same kind of food.

8 Q. I'll just ask the question again. How is it that you know what

9 the guards' authority was as concerns the ordering of the food?

10 A. Well, sometimes I asked, "Can the amount be increased?" And they

11 would say they had no authority to do that.

12 Q. And you asked that question because clearly there was not enough

13 food to go around; that's correct, isn't it?

14 A. Well, it would happen sometimes that there wasn't enough.

15 Q. Did you also work in the Omarska detention camp?

16 A. No.

17 Q. When was it that you -- are you able to put a date on when you

18 started at the camp?

19 A. I don't know exactly. It was around, well, some 20 days after the

20 beginning.

21 Q. And at that time, that is when you started, you say there were a

22 thousand or so detainees at the camp; is that correct?

23 A. I said up to a thousand.

24 Q. When you left, that is when the camp closed, how many detainees

25 would you say - just an estimate - were detained?

Page 4462

1 A. I don't know that. Maybe over a thousand, a little over a

2 thousand, but I don't know how many.

3 Q. And you worked, I think you said, from 2.00 p.m. for two to three

4 hours; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You didn't have much time to serve each detainee, did you?

7 A. We had enough time.

8 Q. Enough time to do precisely what?

9 A. Enough time to pour the food, to hand them bread, and we didn't do

10 anything else.

11 Q. They only received one slice of bread per day; is that correct?

12 A. No. Sometimes two, three, depending on the amount of bread we

13 received.

14 Q. You were serving the food from outside the building, and so you

15 had, I suggest to you, ample opportunity to observe the prisoners or the

16 detainees as they lined up or as they queued for food. Would you agree

17 with that?

18 A. Well, we had an opportunity but we didn't have time to observe

19 them.

20 Q. Witness DB, the detainees were taking the food from you right in

21 front of your face, were they not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At that time, you had, I suggest to you, ample opportunity to

24 observe the state they were in; would you agree with that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4463

1 Q. Detainees were in a filthy and unkept state, weren't they?

2 A. Of course.

3 Q. And they had -- some of them had obvious injuries on their

4 bodies. That's true, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the detainees had obviously lost a lot of weight. That's

7 true, isn't it?

8 A. Yes. That was to be expected. They were in a prison and they

9 only received one meal per day. It affects your mental state. And I also

10 lost weight myself while working there.

11 Q. The detainees lost a lot of weight; would you agree with that?

12 A. Not all of them.

13 Q. Were you -- you were in the camp on the 1st of July, weren't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you've given some evidence that you spoke at times to the

16 guards at the camp. Did you know the names of the guards, or any of them?

17 A. Very few.

18 Q. Did you know a person by the name of Cupo Banovic, with long hair,

19 who carried a baseball bat?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you know a guard by the name of Kondic?

22 A. No.

23 Q. On the 1st of July, Cupo Banovic removed some of the prisoners or

24 some of the detainees from the food line and beat those detainees. That's

25 correct, isn't it?

Page 4464

1 A. I did not see that.

2 Q. Did you see Cupo Banovic on the 20th of July beat some of the

3 detainees?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You were there on that date; correct?

6 A. While I was there, nothing happened. There was no mistreatment.

7 Q. Did you ever have occasion to observe a Muslim priest who was in

8 the camp?

9 A. I had an opportunity to see people who were there, but I did not

10 know who was what there.

11 Q. In late July, a group of detainees from the Brdo region were

12 brought to the camp. That's correct, isn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And those men were placed into Room 3. That's correct, isn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And those detainees were not given any food or water for a number

17 of days. That's correct, isn't it?

18 A. That is not correct.

19 Q. How do you say those detainees from Room 3 received their food?

20 A. The first three days they did not come out, but the food would be

21 brought to their door.

22 Q. Who took the food to the door?

23 A. Some of the detainees.

24 Q. And what quantity of food was taken to the door?

25 A. The same as to the others.

Page 4465

1 Q. Do you know whether those detainees actually ate that food?

2 A. I don't.

3 Q. Now, you've indicated that you were aware of the presence of those

4 detainees in Room 3 and that they didn't come out for several days. Do

5 you recall an occasion when they were brought out and made to lie face

6 down in the sun for a number of hours one afternoon?

7 A. I did not see that.

8 Q. You were in the camp from 2.00 until approximately 5.00 p.m. every

9 day. That's correct, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You were in the camp on the day before the Room 3 massacre,

12 weren't you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you saw a machine-gun, at least one machine-gun, facing toward

15 Room 3; is that correct?

16 A. I did not observe that.

17 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Zoran Zigic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. He was in the camp frequently, wasn't he?

20 A. That is where I saw him. I personally did not know him.

21 Q. What did you see him doing in the camp?

22 A. Nothing in particular.

23 Q. Well, he must have been doing something while he was there. What

24 was he doing?

25 A. As I said, nothing in particular. I saw him walking around the

Page 4466

1 perimeter, but I didn't see him doing anything in particular.

2 MS. BALY: Thank you. Nothing further.

3 MR. GREAVES: I have no -- oh, I do have one question in

4 re-examination. Sorry.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Greaves:

6 Q. Witness DB, you've spoken about the food and were asked about the

7 food which was served to the guards. Can you help me about this, please:

8 Was the food which was served to the guards, did that come from the same

9 containers which had the food for the detainees or from different

10 containers?

11 A. I told you that it was the same type of containers, only smaller

12 in size.

13 Q. But the food which was in the smaller containers, that was the

14 same food which was in the large containers; is that correct?

15 A. I believe so because it was the same kind.

16 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. I have no other questions. Do Your

17 Honours have any questions for the witness, please?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. Witness DB, that concludes your testimony

19 and you are released.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 MR. GREAVES: May we go briefly into private session whilst I

23 outline the application in respect of protective measures for this

24 witness, please?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

Page 4467

1 [Private session]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 4468

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 WITNESS: WITNESS DC

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

5 MR. GREAVES: May we go briefly into private session so I might

6 establish his identity, please?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

8 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour just give me a moment, please?

25 Q. Witness DC, in May 1992, can you tell us, please, what your

Page 4469

1 occupation was.

2 A. [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 Q. I want to ask you, please, about the 30th of May 1992. Were you

5 working on that occasion?

6 A. Yes, on the 30th of May 1992, I was on duty in the hospital.

7 Q. And can you tell us, please, at what time did you start work on

8 the 30th of May, or if it was a shift that had started the day before,

9 when you started the day before, please.

10 A. That was a shift that started on the evening of the 29th at 1900

11 hours, and it lasted until the 0700 hours of the 30th. At least, that was

12 supposed to have been the end of that shift.

13 Q. I want to ask you, please, about the period at 4.40 in the

14 morning. Were you engaged in your duties away from the hospital at that

15 time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were you driving an ambulance at that time?

18 A. No. That morning, I was in the hospital. Yes.

19 Q. Did there come a time when you used the ambulance?

20 A. I did not understand the question.

21 Q. I'm sorry, I was told there was no translation of the question, in

22 fact. During the course of your duty that night, did you have occasion to

23 use the ambulance?

24 A. Yes, in the morning, around four -- 4.40 a.m., I received a call,

25 and I was to go to the centre of town.

Page 4470

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4471

1 Q. The ambulance that you used, did it bear red cross markings on

2 it?

3 A. Yes, they had all the markings of a professional ambulance. It

4 had the lights, it had rotation lights, it had the red cross signs on the

5 sides, and they were clearly marked as an ambulance.

6 Q. And at that time in the morning, was it already light?

7 A. Yes, it had already dawned. That was 20 to 5.00 on May the 30th.

8 Q. Help us about this, please: Did you carry out the job which you

9 had been sent to do?

10 A. No, I did not carry out the job, because halfway to the location I

11 was attacked by - how shall I put it - a group of extremists, which fired

12 on me from firearms while I was in the ambulance.

13 Q. Well, let's just take that in stages, please. Whereabouts were

14 you when this attack took place? What part of Prijedor?

15 A. I was under the overpass.

16 Q. And were you moving at the time when the attack commenced?

17 A. Yes. The vehicle was moving.

18 Q. At what speed was the vehicle moving when the attack commenced?

19 A. It was moving at approximately 40 kilometres per hour.

20 Q. The people who attacked you, were they in front of your vehicle or

21 behind it?

22 A. No. They were to the left and right of my vehicle.

23 Q. And were you able to observe them before the attack commenced or

24 as the attack commenced?

25 A. I observed them before the attack commenced, when I was coming

Page 4472

1 downhill towards the overpass.

2 Q. As you approached them, were you able to see if the people on

3 either side of the road were armed in any way?

4 A. I saw them, because the group was crossing. In fact, I disrupted

5 them, their crossing the road, and they were armed.

6 Q. Witness DC, were you able to identify what type of weapons these

7 people were armed with?

8 A. I could not recognise the weapons as such, but I saw that they

9 were armed with automatic rifles. But I couldn't tell you what make those

10 automatic rifles were. I just saw them with those type of weapons.

11 Q. Did there come a time when members of the group fired at your

12 vehicle?

13 A. Yes, at the moment when I arrived, when I was just -- when I had

14 reached the pillars, just under the overpass.

15 Q. And was it all the members of the group or just a few of them who

16 fired at your vehicle?

17 A. Most of those who were there shot at me.

18 Q. First of all, was your vehicle hit by the fire which was directed

19 at you?

20 A. Yes. The vehicle was hit by several bullets. In fact, it was

21 riddled with bullets, and the windshield was broken and the side windows.

22 The doors were also shot through, and the back door as well.

23 Q. At this time, were you wounded by any of the bullets which entered

24 the vehicle?

25 A. Yes. Several bullets wounded me.

Page 4473

1 Q. Whereabouts in your body were you hit at this time?

2 A. I was hit in both legs, both arms, the chest, neck; lower arm,

3 upper arm, lower leg, upper leg, to be more precise.

4 Q. Again, at this time, were you able to keep control of the vehicle,

5 or did you lose control of the vehicle in any way?

6 A. At that moment while the fire was going on, the left arm and the

7 right leg were shot. I lost control of them. But I kept the steering

8 wheel with my left arm. I was also grazed in the left forearm. And as

9 the vehicle was moving and as it had momentum, it just kept going uphill.

10 It went up and it came to a stop above the overpass, but they kept on

11 shooting after me.

12 Q. Were you injured again as a result of the continued shooting?

13 A. They fired shots behind me, and when I came out, they continued

14 shooting after me, when I passed through the underpass, and then I had

15 some entry/exit wounds in my back.

16 Q. Were you able to recover control of the vehicle or did you lose

17 consciousness at any stage?

18 A. I didn't lose consciousness straight away, not there. I tried to

19 move the vehicle toward the centre.

20 Q. And were you able, eventually, to drive from the immediate scene

21 where you had been attacked?

22 A. I moved forward twice in the direction of the SUP, hoping that

23 there would be someone there to give me assistance, because there was no

24 one in the street I could turn to. It lasted a long time, because I lost

25 consciousness twice. The second time -- the last time I lost

Page 4474

1 consciousness I stayed there longer, and from there they, after a time,

2 transported me to hospital.

3 Q. I'd just like to go back to the passage of your vehicle as you

4 approached and then passed the group of people who attacked you. As you

5 passed the group of people, how close were they to the vehicle as you

6 passed them?

7 A. They were a metre away, or a metre and a half, on the pavement.

8 They were standing on the pavement, on both sides of the road. So the

9 ones on the right-hand side were about a metre away, or a metre and a

10 half, and the ones on the left-hand side were the width of the road away.

11 Q. If you were standing a metre away from your vehicle, would the

12 markings on that vehicle be clearly visible?

13 A. The markings on an ambulance are clearly visible from a far

14 greater distance, and especially as my rotating light was on.

15 Q. As a result of your injuries, were you detained in hospital?

16 A. Yes. I had enormous consequences, because I was taken to Banja

17 Luka from Prijedor, and then from Banja Luka to Belgrade the same day,

18 because I was very seriously injured.

19 Q. Witness DC, we don't want to see your injuries, but please would

20 you be so kind as to describe what injuries you received, please.

21 A. I was wounded in the right arm, in the lower arm, in the right

22 shoulder, the right side of my chest, my right leg. My right leg was

23 seven centimetres off. It was ripped apart. That was above the knee, my

24 thigh. Then I was also wounded in my left thigh, my left arm, and my

25 neck.

Page 4475

1 Q. How long did you spend in hospital before you were released?

2 A. I spent 18 months in various hospitals in Belgrade, until I was

3 taken back to Prijedor.

4 Q. At the present time, have you been assessed, as it were, as to the

5 degree of invalidity that you have?

6 A. Yes. I'm a 90-per-cent permanent invalid.

7 Q. Prior to this incident taking place, had you been engaged in

8 duties as an ambulance driver, collecting wounded people?

9 A. Wounded people? Where? I didn't understand your question well.

10 Q. In the days immediately before you were injured, had you been

11 engaged in duties as an ambulance driver, collecting wounded people,

12 people who had been wounded in the fighting, anywhere in Prijedor or in

13 the Prijedor district?

14 A. At that time, there were no wounded people in Prijedor. There had

15 been no fighting in those days. On the 30th of May, in the morning,

16 that's when that started happening in Prijedor.

17 Q. And did you carry any of those wounded people or any wounded

18 people on that day?

19 A. No. I set out because I had received the call and I had set out

20 to the town centre.

21 Q. Do you know if people were injured and wounded that day?

22 A. I do. I heard that 18 people were killed and 35 or 36 wounded on

23 that day, after that, or rather after I was wounded.

24 Q. From whom did you hear that information?

25 A. People were talking about it in the hospital, everywhere, and it

Page 4476

1 was in the newspapers. The medical staff, the hospital staff, said that

2 there had been many wounded people, that they'd had a lot of work.

3 MR. GREAVES: May we go briefly into private session, please?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4477

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 4477 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4478

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 4478 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4479

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 4479 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4480

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4481

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no questions,

4 thank you.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ostojic? Sir Ivan?

6 MR. LAWRENCE: No questions.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Ryneveld?

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, thank you.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

10 Q. Sir, at the outset, I'm sorry to hear of your injuries. I'm just

11 going to ask you a few questions to attempt to clarify some of the answers

12 you gave us. Do I take, sir, from your name that your ethnicity is that

13 you're a Serb? Is that correct?

14 A. Yes. I'm Orthodox, a Serb, and Orthodox by religion.

15 Q. [redacted]

16 [redacted] Was that a civilian function, or at that particular

17 time were you assigned to some military organisation?

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 Q. Thank you. My question --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MR. RYNEVELD:

23 Q. My question, to keep it very simple, is: Was that in a civilian

24 capacity?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4482

1 Q. And with the outbreak of the conflict, were you required to report

2 to any military organisation and be a part of that, or were you allowed to

3 keep your civilian job?

4 A. When the conflict broke out, everybody was given a military

5 assignment.

6 Q. What was yours?

7 A. [redacted]

8 Q. So on the day in question, [redacted]

9 [redacted] is that correct?

10 A. No. On that day, I was a civilian. I did not have a military

11 assignment at all, because I worked throughout that time in hospital, in

12 the hospital.

13 Q. On that day, sir, do you know what kind of an incident you were

14 going to with your ambulance? Was it a heart attack or was it someone

15 being shot or was it a car accident? Do you know what you were going to?

16 A. No, I didn't know. I only knew the destination.

17 Q. Did you have any clue from the destination as to what type of a

18 call you were responding to?

19 A. No. Until I get there, I can't know what it's all about, so I

20 didn't know who I was going to collect, who I was supposed to collect. He

21 could have been a Serb or a Croat or a Muslim.

22 Q. Sir, you told us about the incident at 4.40 in the morning. I

23 take it -- you said that dawn was just breaking at that time; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, dawn was breaking. It had already -- it was already light.

Page 4483

1 Q. These people that you described, and I don't want to go into any

2 detail, you referred to them as extremists. What do you mean when you use

3 the word "extremists"?

4 A. Well, I meant by that that all those -- that people, as a group,

5 they can't all be considered to be the same. The ones who were there were

6 extremists, because they were shooting at a clearly-marked ambulance which

7 had a rotation light and an illuminated red cross on the roof, and also

8 red cross markings on the side.

9 Q. Sir, just a couple more questions. During the months of April or

10 May through to the 5th of August, did you have any involvement with

11 Keraterm in any way, or the facility at Keraterm?

12 A. I didn't understand your question.

13 Q. During the months of April through August of 1992, while you were

14 living in Prijedor, were you aware that there was a detention facility at

15 the former Keraterm ceramics facility?

16 A. No. I was wounded on the 30th of May.

17 Q. So at no time prior to the 30th of May did you have anything to do

18 with the Keraterm detention facility?

19 A. No. I had never heard of it.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Re-examination, Mr. Greaves?

22 MR. GREAVES: Yes.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Greaves:

24 Q. Yes. After the 30th of May, Witness DC, you were in hospital all

25 the time until some 18 months; is that correct?

Page 4484

1 A. Yes. I was injured on the 30th of May, and on that same day I was

2 taken by plane from Banja Luka to hospitals, where I stayed for 18

3 months.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Thank you very much, Witness DC.

6 Do Your Honours have any questions, please?

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry. I don't know whether I asked whether

9 Your Honours have any questions and whether you replied.

10 MR. ROBINSON: No.

11 MR. GREAVES: You don't. Thank you very much. May the document

12 become a Defence Exhibit, please.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We were just discussing that among ourselves.

14 It's not translated, and the relevance is not very evident.

15 MR. GREAVES: We've heard evidence about Mr. Cirkin in the case,

16 and I'm simply establishing what his present position is. And it's only

17 those two lines that I wish to establish. I don't see the point of having

18 the translators work at several pages of translation if it's only two

19 lines from it which can be dealt by the witness. I'm loath to make

20 translators do anything which is unnecessary, if you see what I mean.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, it is true that it's just the two

23 lines, but the rest of the document is in a foreign language, and the

24 principle is important. I think we will admit it when it is translated.

25 MR. GREAVES: Very well. We'll have it translated.

Page 4485

1 MR. RYNEVELD: If I might just address a scheduling matter for

2 today. We're moving along quite quickly. I understand my friend has a

3 potential number of witnesses. I don't know how many he has available

4 today. I just thought I would ask the Court one of two things: It's my

5 understanding that my presence will be required before another Judge on

6 another matter at 4.15 today. I can, of course -- if the Court were to

7 excuse me, my colleague obviously can continue, but I'm just wondering

8 whether or not, in light of the speed with which we are moving, it would

9 be absolutely necessary to -- or whether or not the Court might consider

10 shortened hours for today. I just raise that as an issue.

11 MR. GREAVES: We were going to make the same request, for this

12 reason: It is extremely difficult for us to go to the prison, if we wish

13 to do so, if we rise at 5.30. In fact, it's impossible. And during the

14 Defence case we do, from time to time, need to take instructions. If

15 possible, we would like to be able to rise, because we're making good

16 progress, at 4.00, if possible, so we can, if necessary, take instructions

17 from our client.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We will adjourn at 4.00 this afternoon.

20 Witness DC, that concludes your testimony and you are released.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're adjourned until 2.30.

23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.04 p.m.

24

25

Page 4486

1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.

3 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, during the course of this afternoon,

4 I'm going to be referring with witnesses to a number of documents. I've

5 got copies of the originals and an English translation thereof. The

6 French translation is still in process. Can I give them to you now,

7 please, before the witnesses are called? It seems to make sense.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

9 MR. GREAVES: Some witnesses deal with them more than once. They

10 will be distributed, there are copies for everybody. And that's the

11 English ones. I think the Prosecution has got copies of these documents.

12 I gave a copy to my learned friend this morning, hospital documents.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Yeah. But there is one. I got three copies. Are

14 they three different? I assumed they are two copies --

15 MR. GREAVES: Three copies of five different documents, I think.

16 Thank you very much.

17 I call, when Mr. Usher is ready, Rajko Vignjevic.

18 JUDGE MAY: What page?

19 MR. GREAVES: The three documents in the English version I'm going

20 to be referring to are the third, fourth and fifth in the bundle.

21 JUDGE MAY: Where in the witness summary?

22 MR. GREAVES: I'm terribly sorry, Your Honour, I didn't realise

23 that's what you meant. 9279, top right-hand corner.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

Page 4487

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4488

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 WITNESS: RAJKO Vignjevic

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

6 Examined by Mr. Greaves:

7 Q. Mr. Vignjevic, would you be so kind as to tell us your full names,

8 please.

9 A. Rajko Vignjevic.

10 Q. Mr. Vignjevic, were you employed in the general hospital at

11 Prijedor from 1976 onwards and are you still so employed there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you presently work there as a personnel officer?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In May 1992, were you working at the hospital as normal?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And in June 1992, were you transferred to the job of warehouseman

18 at the hospital?

19 A. It wasn't in June. It was in late May of 1992. That is -- that

20 is when I was transferred to the warehouse.

21 Q. And what was your job at the warehouse? Did you have more than

22 one warehouse to look after?

23 A. Yes. That was a warehouse which consisted of several units; a

24 food unit, technical equipment unit, then a protection -- protective

25 equipment, electric supplies and so on. I was in charge of all the units

Page 4489

1 except the one for food. In other words, anything that was -- that had to

2 do with technical equipment of any kind.

3 Q. During the course of your duties as a warehouseman in the summer

4 of 1992, were there occasions when items were donated by people from

5 outside the hospital, that were brought to your warehouses?

6 A. Yes. There were gifts, not only from the town of Prijedor, but

7 from other places too, and in addition to that there was humanitarian aid.

8 Q. And when such items were received, were records kept of those

9 items and their receipt?

10 A. Yes. There was a rule that whenever a gift would be received by

11 the warehouse, it had to be processed, and the procedure consisted of

12 first -- the gift that was intended would first be inspected, examined by

13 a commission, and then the gift-giver would be present with the

14 commission, and he would be present when the entry was made, and the chief

15 of the warehouse - in this case it was myself - we would all be present

16 when it was entered and signed.

17 MR. GREAVES: I'd like you to look at two documents, please.

18 And if Madam Registrar could give him one from the -- no. It's

19 the original versions, please. One from the pile labelled 3 and one from

20 the pile labelled 5, please. In the English translation, it's the third

21 and fifth pages.

22 If Mr. Usher just gives him one copy, that will be sufficient.

23 Q. Would you --

24 MR. GREAVES: My learned friend is on his feet, and I hope that --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

Page 4490

1 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm just hoping that there might be a copy of the

2 original as well for us to look at. Apparently it's a handwritten

3 document; is that correct?

4 MR. GREAVES: Partly handwritten.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: I would be grateful to have at least a look at that

6 document. Even though I had the translation, I'd like to see the

7 original.

8 MR. GREAVES: Of course. There should be a copy.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have the original?

10 MR. GREAVES: Do you want a copy of the original or the original?

11 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't need the original; just a copy of the

12 original so I can see what the original looked like.

13 MR. GREAVES: There are two documents, in fact. There's a second

14 one.

15 Q. Mr. Vignjevic, you're looking at the first document which was

16 given to you. Have you seen that document before?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that's the one which originally was numbered 3 in the bundle.

19 Can you tell us, what is that document exactly?

20 A. The document that I'm holding in my hand right now is issued from

21 the previous document. This is the entry -- document reflecting the entry

22 of the gift to the warehouse, and it was drafted on a previous document

23 registering the gift and its receipt at the warehouse.

24 Q. And can you tell us, please: It's signed, I think, at the

25 bottom. Whose signature is that at the bottom?

Page 4491

1 A. In the document that I'm holding in my hand, it is my signature.

2 This is my signature here.

3 Q. Thank you. Would you look at the other document, please, which is

4 to your left. Again, have a look at that document, please, and then would

5 you be so kind as to tell us what it is.

6 A. This document is the initial document on the receipt of a gift for

7 the hospital. This was compiled by the commission which received it and

8 it is reflected in the signature block, and it describes the article. My

9 signature on this document is not the same as the one on the previous

10 document, but I vary my signature. Sometimes it's a full, sometimes it's

11 a shortened. But it is my signature in both cases, except that in this

12 case it is abbreviated and in the other one it was a full signature.

13 Q. And to what item did those two documents relate?

14 A. They refer to the same item, the same article, which is a machine

15 for cleaning of floors, which the person had turned over to the hospital

16 as a gift. It is the same article. But the document reflects the

17 examination of it by the commission, and the other one its entry into the

18 warehouse.

19 Q. And Mr. Vignjevic, can you recall, please, who was it who

20 physically brought that item to the hospital?

21 A. This item was delivered by car. I think it was either a van or a

22 small pick-up truck that delivered it, and it was delivered by Dusko

23 Sikirica, with another man who was driving when the item was brought in.

24 He turned it over to the commission for examination and then, later on, it

25 was placed in the warehouse.

Page 4492

1 Q. And looking at the two documents, they are dated the 1st of August

2 1992. Was it on the 1st of August 1992 that the item was delivered to the

3 hospital by Dusko Sikirica?

4 A. Yes. That was the date of the delivery and when the item was

5 received, that machine, that is.

6 Q. Prior to August 1992, had you known Dusko Sikirica?

7 A. Yes. The acquaintance was not very close but we knew each other.

8 He is from the same neighbourhood, and when we would see each other, we

9 would just greet one another. That was it. We did know one another, not

10 very well, but we were acquainted with one another. Before the war, that

11 is, we had known each other.

12 Q. And how long before the war had you known him?

13 A. Well, let's see, perhaps three or four years. I cannot be more

14 precise, but I saw him -- I used to see him three to four years before the

15 war. We are of two different generations so we didn't know each other

16 well, but we did see each other.

17 Q. Prior to the delivery of the machine to the hospital on the 1st of

18 August, had you seen Dusko Sikirica around the hospital at all?

19 A. Yes. I first noticed Dusko, I think this was towards the end of

20 July, around 27, 28. That is when I saw him in the police uniform. At

21 that time, he was part of the security for the hospital. That is when I

22 saw him, and again, not every day but occasionally and subsequently.

23 Q. Would you see him more than once a day or just once a day? Can

24 you help us about that, please?

25 A. Well, it would happen that he was on his shift wherever that --

Page 4493

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4494

1 whenever that was, but sometimes I wouldn't see him for an entire day but

2 I would see him the next day. I didn't pay that much attention to that

3 either. I think that he was part of security and -- but I wasn't really

4 paying attention on when he was around.

5 Q. And in relation to the date of delivery of the machine, for how

6 long after that did you continue to see Dusko Sikirica at the hospital?

7 A. It is hard to say accurately, but I did see him occasionally. It

8 may have been a block of about a month to month and maybe two -- one to

9 two weeks, following the day when he brought the machine.

10 Q. Would you wait there, please, Mr. Vignjevic, and answer any

11 questions that may be put to you.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan? Mr. Ryneveld?

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

17 Q. Sir, you've been working in that warehouse since 1976; is that

18 correct?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I'm sorry, you were transferred to the warehouse in May of 1992,

21 but you'd been working at the hospital since 1976?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And between May of 1992 and the present date, I take it you must

24 have received a lot of equipment and a lot of machines from time to time

25 during the course of your employment; is that correct?

Page 4495

1 A. Well, I don't know what "many" is. I did receive some. There

2 were gifts, not that many, but if you -- in comparison, there was a lot

3 more humanitarian aid, that is, during the period when I worked in the

4 warehouse.

5 Q. Sir, my point is it wasn't a particularly momentous occasion for

6 you on the date when the floor polisher arrived, was it?

7 A. No, no, because it was usual, almost every other day, sometimes

8 two items would arrive of gifts or humanitarian aid, so in that sense, it

9 was usual. I did not pay any special attention to this particular piece

10 of equipment or any other, because there were similar items that came in

11 either before or after.

12 Q. Yes. And, sir, the incident that you're being asked to testify

13 about now is about nine years ago, give or take a month or two?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Nodding your head meaning "yes." Sir, do you recall when it was

16 that you were first approached and asked to think back about when it was

17 that you received -- you received the floor polisher in the course of your

18 duties? When was it that you were first approached by anyone to give

19 evidence about this case?

20 A. I was approached to give evidence in this case about perhaps

21 three, three and a half months ago, three to four months ago, perhaps even

22 more.

23 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that when you were first approached

24 about this incident, you had no specific recollection about this specific

25 floor polisher being delivered by anyone, did you?

Page 4496

1 A. Let me tell you, I did remember that the equipment, that this

2 particular equipment -- in fact, this particular piece of equipment is

3 still in our warehouse at the hospital, and when I was asked about it, I

4 immediately said that I did remember, but I did not recall any further

5 details until I went to the archive and I found the record and the entry,

6 and that sort of illuminated me a little bit more, if I can put it that

7 way.

8 Q. Well, let's just analyse what you did remember when you were first

9 asked, sir. You remembered that the floor polisher was around and that

10 you had received it sometime; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Until you looked at the documentation in the archives, is it fair

13 to say that you had no specific recollection about who brought it or when

14 it was brought or the exact date when it was brought?

15 A. You could say that in respect of the date, but I immediately

16 recalled who it was that brought it, that had brought it, because I knew

17 that person from before, if you understand me.

18 Q. I do, but I'm suggesting to you, sir, that it wasn't until you

19 looked at the document which had Dusko Sikirica's name on it that you

20 remembered that it was him. That's how you recognise: Yes, I know that

21 guy.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

24 A. No. No. As soon as I was asked whether a machine had been

25 brought to the hospital in early August, I said, "Yes, a machine was

Page 4497

1 brought in. It was a floor polisher." And I knew that Dusko Sikirica

2 brought it in a TAM truck. But I said that I would check it in the

3 archives, look in the records of the commission. But I remembered

4 immediately that it was Dusko who brought it, because most of the donors

5 that gave donations and came three or four times are people I remembered.

6 Maybe I don't remember their names, because -- I did know these other

7 people from before the war, but I did know Dusko better than I knew the

8 other donors, and I didn't know that Dusko might -- well, it wasn't he who

9 gave the gift; it was Mr. Mesanovic.

10 Q. So during the course of your employment, of all the items that you

11 received at the warehouse on a daily or twice-daily basis, you happen to

12 recall that the floor polisher that you were being asked about some nine

13 years later was brought to you by Mr. Sikirica before you looked at the

14 records. Is that what you're asking us to believe, sir?

15 A. Yes. Yes. I recalled because the machine was unusual, because it

16 was unusual and it was big and we didn't have a machine of that kind in

17 the hospital, and it was very useful. So when I thought of that machine,

18 I immediately recalled who had brought it, and I recalled immediately it

19 was Dusko. Because I wish to mention: Maybe I wouldn't have remembered

20 that if I hadn't known Dusko from before. I don't know what might have

21 happened, but it's probably because I knew Dusko from before. So I said,

22 "Oh, yes, I remember it was Dusko who brought it," and then I checked all

23 this in the documentation.

24 Q. Sir, from the documents that have been shown to you, is it fair to

25 say that these certificates, these documents, weren't shown to you before

Page 4498

1 the 11th of December of 2000; it would be sometime since the 11th of

2 December 2000?

3 A. I don't understand your question.

4 Q. All right. Sir, counsel for Mr. Sikirica showed you some pieces

5 of paper in your language. Those documents that you were shown, did you

6 also see a document from the general hospital in Prijedor signed by the

7 director, Radojka Elenkov? Were you shown that document? Were you shown

8 that document by the counsel?

9 A. Well, no. I can't remember that. I know we only talked about the

10 machine. I remembered who had brought the machine in. I didn't remember

11 the date, and I told the lawyer immediately that there must be

12 documentation about this donation. And later on I found these documents

13 and convinced myself that -- well, as for Radojka Elenkov, I can't

14 remember. I don't remember. Goran Elenkov -- Radojka, I don't know who

15 that is.

16 Q. Let's not worry about that any longer, sir, because I'm going to

17 ask you a couple of other questions. You were approached and asked about

18 your recollection about the delivery of this machine and then you went

19 back and looked in the records; is that fair to say?

20 A. Before I looked in the records, before I went to look at them, I

21 remembered the machine, and I remembered the person who had brought the

22 machine in, and it was only then that I went to confirm this in my own

23 mind. I didn't know the exact date, but when I checked the documentation,

24 then I saw what the date was.

25 Q. Were you given any assistance, sir, in terms of a possible date to

Page 4499

1 commence your search? Were you told that you should maybe look at your

2 search to be around a particular date, like the 1st of August? Were you

3 told?

4 A. Well, no. You know, this is in a file, and I went through the

5 year 1992. You can go through this very fast, and so leafing through

6 these documents, I came upon it.

7 Q. So let me just see if I get your evidence correctly, sir. You

8 made a totally independent search and you weren't given any assistance

9 from anyone, including the people who were asking you to check, as to a

10 time frame that might be helpful for you to look at?

11 A. Well, they only mentioned the machine, the people I talked to, the

12 lawyers, and then I said I would check it. They asked me for the

13 documents because they wanted to see it and they wanted to see when this

14 was. And I repeat now that I looked through the file, and I was assisted

15 by my associates from the bookkeeping department who keep this file in

16 their office. And so we found it and then we showed it to the Defence

17 counsel, and the record and the entry, all that. I mean, we couldn't do

18 that before I looked and saw whether we had the documents, but I did

19 remember both the machine and the person who brought it in, and then I

20 checked this and confirmed it in my own mind when I saw the documents.

21 Q. Sir, that's a very long answer to a very simple question. Let me

22 rephrase my question to see whether or not you will agree or disagree with

23 me. Is it your evidence that you were given no assistance by anyone in

24 terms of the time frame for you to look for the date that this receipt may

25 have been written?

Page 4500

1 A. Yes. Yes, they did assist, but it was my people from the filing

2 department, the bookkeeping department, who helped me, because they have

3 to make an entry as to the value of every donation, and then a colleague

4 of mine told me that she thought it was late July or early August. And

5 because these records are kept in files according to number, and I pulled

6 out the file and leafed through it, and I didn't want to open it in the

7 middle and try to find July, August at once. I went through from the

8 beginning. But I did get assistance from that colleague of mine, because

9 she was doing the bookkeeping end, the value of the machine, entering it

10 in the books, and she said that she remembered that it was late July or

11 early August.

12 Q. Let me try it one more time. Did counsel for Sikirica, or anyone

13 working on behalf of Mr. Sikirica's defence, give you assistance with

14 respect to a particular date when you might concentrate your search?

15 MR. GREAVES: I really think he's answered this question about

16 twice now.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: No. With respect, he hasn't.

18 MR. GREAVES: His answer was, "They only mentioned the machine,

19 the people I talked to, the lawyers, and then I said I would check it."

20 That, in our submission, is an answer to the question he is asking.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect, at line 0802, as a result of my

22 question, "Did anyone give you any assistance?" he says, "Yes, yes, they

23 did assist. But it was my people from the filing department who helped

24 me," et cetera. I'm now asking for clarification by what he means by

25 "they did assist."

Page 4501

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4502

1 Q. Did people from the Defence team assist you in concentrating your

2 search to a particular date? Yes or no.

3 A. No, no.

4 Q. Now, sir, do I understand your evidence correctly that you're not

5 really sure just how long it was that you knew Mr. Sikirica before the

6 armed conflict? Is that right?

7 A. I'm not sure. I'm not.

8 Q. And you're not sure about the date when you saw him in a police

9 uniform around the hospital either, are you, sir?

10 A. That, well, I saw Sikirica wearing a police uniform in late June.

11 It was the 27th of July, rather, yes.

12 Q. Sir, are you suggesting that you can now recall that you saw him

13 at the hospital in a police uniform on the 27th or 28th of July? Is that

14 your evidence?

15 A. Well, you see, the 27th of July is -- a traditional event takes

16 place near Prijedor on the 27th of July, and it's an event I usually

17 attend. I always go to these traditional events. A gathering. And it

18 was then that I was about to go to that gathering. So that day sticks in

19 my memory because it's an annual event. So it was the 27th of July.

20 Q. But that was a date before the delivery of the machine; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Sir, you say that he was there in a police uniform, and you saw

24 him from time to time?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4503

1 Q. You only assume he was there for the security of the hospital;

2 isn't that true? You didn't -- he didn't tell you that?

3 A. No. I wasn't told that he was there, but everyone -- that's what

4 people said. I didn't ask anyone, nor did anyone tell me of their own

5 accord, but people said that those people in police uniforms were

6 providing security for the hospital, and so I assume, because he was

7 wearing a police uniform and I saw him that day, I assume that he was

8 working on security, because as hospital employees, we were never given a

9 document which said that somebody was in the security. But seeing someone

10 in a police uniform, of course one assumed he was in the security.

11 Q. Correct. So that's an assumption that you drew from the fact that

12 someone in a police uniform was at the hospital; is that right?

13 A. No, no. It wasn't just he. Others. Would you repeat your

14 question, please?

15 Q. Let me rephrase -- let me ask a couple of others ones, sir. He

16 didn't tell you he was there on police security. It's an assumption you

17 made from the fact that you saw someone in a police uniform there; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You don't know, for example, if he was there bringing a prisoner

21 from the Keraterm detention camp for treatment. That's a possibility,

22 isn't it?

23 A. I don't know. I don't know anything about that.

24 Q. No, but if a policeman were to bring an inmate to the hospital,

25 that would be another explanation for seeing him there, other than the

Page 4504

1 fact that he's hospital security?

2 A. But you see, bringing a patient in, that was the entrance on the

3 opposite side of the hospital, and I was working in the basement on the

4 other side of the hospital. The entrance was on the other side. So if

5 someone brought in a patient, it wouldn't be something I would see or know

6 about, the arrival of any patients or anyone. But the building was

7 secured by policemen, and we noticed those policemen at the entrance where

8 I was, and that is why I assumed that was the hospital security at the

9 time.

10 Q. All right. Sir, did your records disclose to you who the donor of

11 this machine was?

12 A. Yes. Mr. Mesanovic.

13 Q. Did you know Mr. Mesanovic?

14 A. No, no, I didn't.

15 Q. Could you tell, sir, whether or not that is a Croat or Serb or

16 Muslim name? Are you able to say?

17 A. Well, the last name is a Muslim one.

18 Q. Was it -- did you receive many donations from Muslims at that time

19 of the conflict?

20 A. I wouldn't say we received many, but there were some smaller ones,

21 and bigger ones as well, like that machine. But we didn't receive much

22 from Muslims; not so much from Serbs either. It was from people of other

23 nationalities. There wasn't a lot of that, either from one side or the

24 other.

25 Q. Did you not consider it strange, sir, that an item like that would

Page 4505

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4506

1 be brought to you by someone in a police uniform as opposed to by the

2 donor personally?

3 A. Well, maybe it seems strange to me only now. At that time, I

4 didn't think about it, about that strange situation. Other Muslims made

5 donations, they made small gifts, so did Serbs, and they didn't appear odd

6 to me because I thought it was a gift to the hospital. I don't know how,

7 why. But anyway, it was brought in, it was handed in, it was a donation,

8 and I was doing my job.

9 Q. It was a donation purportedly from a Muslim individual brought to

10 you by the police; is that correct?

11 A. Dusko drove it to us in a truck, yes. The Muslim donated it.

12 Q. Did you confirm with the donor that this was a voluntary gift, or

13 whether it was appropriated? Did you do any follow-up when you received

14 this material?

15 A. No, I didn't check. I did not establish whether it was voluntary,

16 because I felt that it was a gift for the hospital. Otherwise, it

17 wouldn't be there. It wouldn't be in the hospital. Anyway, it was my job

18 to receive the donation, whoever brought it there. I couldn't refuse a

19 gift.

20 Q. I'm not suggesting you could, sir.

21 A. And I don't know how it was obtained.

22 Q. Sir, I just have one more question, you'll be happy to know. The

23 hospital, just how far is it away from the Keraterm camp?

24 A. Two and a half, three kilometres, two kilometres, something like

25 that.

Page 4507

1 Q. So someone could come and go between the two places on a number of

2 times in one day without any difficulty?

3 A. That's what you say.

4 Q. No. That's my question of you. I'm not suggesting -- is it your

5 evidence --

6 A. Yes, yes, he could, during the day. Two kilometres is -- it's --

7 you can go that distance on foot, if need be, in a quarter of an hour. If

8 you go both ways, it's half an hour.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Right. Thank you, sir. I have no further

10 questions.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.

12 Mr. Greaves?

13 Re-examined by Mr. Greaves:

14 Q. Mr. Vignjevic, on the occasions during the period of time you've

15 described during which you saw Dusko Sikirica at the hospital, was it

16 always at the side of the hospital where you were working as opposed to

17 the entrance where patients were brought in?

18 A. No. From time to time, I saw him on my side, at my entrance, or

19 rather, in front. Occasionally, not always.

20 Q. And what was he doing when you saw him at your side of the

21 building?

22 A. He was just walking around, patrolling around the gate. He would

23 go around, he would walk off. Whether he was going to the other entrance,

24 I don't know, but from my office I could see through the window when a

25 policeman passed around the perimeter. So I don't know whether he went

Page 4508

1 this way or that way. I didn't pay attention. But I would see him there

2 in front. I'm talking about the gate leading to my part of the building,

3 to the basement.

4 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

5 Do Your Honours have any questions of the witness, please?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I don't think so.

7 Mr. Vignjevic, that concludes your testimony and you are

8 released.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 MR. GREAVES: I wonder whether the two items which he has

11 identified may acquire exhibit numbers, please.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

13 THE REGISTRAR: D31/1, D/32/1.

14 MR. GREAVES: I call now Radenko Djervida. I'm sorry --

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Would my friend mind repeating the name? I missed

16 it.

17 MR. GREAVES: Would you give me a minute? It's Radenko Djervida.

18 It's 9277 in the bundle.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, apparently my presence is required

20 before another Judge at this particular time. May I please be excused?

21 My colleague will continue.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

25 WITNESS: RADENKO DJERVIDA

Page 4509

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Examined by Mr. Greaves:

7 Q. Mr. Djervida, would you please tell us your full names.

8 A. Radenko Djervida.

9 Q. Is your date of birth the 21st of September, 1957, are you a

10 resident of Prijedor, and are you of Serb ethnicity?

11 A. I'm a resident of Prijedor and I am of Serb ethnicity.

12 Q. From 1982, were you employed at the general hospital in Prijedor,

13 and did you work there as the manager of the technical services?

14 A. I have been employed at the Prijedor hospital since 1982, and I

15 still am today, and I am one of the managers of the technical services.

16 Q. And did you occupy that position in the summer of 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I'd like you to look at a document, please, if you will. It's

19 document labelled number 4 of the originals bundle and it's the fourth

20 page of the English translations.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us, please, Mr. Djervida: What is that document that

23 you have in front of you?

24 A. This is the document recording that I received a certain machine

25 and a certain liquid from Dusko Sikirica, and I signed the receipt with my

Page 4510

1 full name, first name and last name, and my signature.

2 Q. And what event was it that caused you to create that document?

3 A. Well, for every item, we always draw up a written document. This

4 is evidence that something arrived in the hospital, both this machine and

5 other types of humanitarian aid.

6 Q. And when such an item is received in the hospital, what is the

7 procedure by which it is, as it were, brought into the hospital's

8 inventory? What documentation has to be created?

9 A. Well, the basic document is this one, and this is evidence that

10 Dusko Sikirica handed over this machine; and I, as the responsible person

11 from the technical service, received it. All other goods are also

12 delivered with documents, with waybills.

13 Q. Now, we can see there that the first item listed is a machine for

14 the cleaning and polishing of floors. Do you recall that item in

15 particular?

16 A. Yes. Yes, I recall.

17 Q. And what is it about that item in particular that makes you recall

18 it nine years later?

19 A. Well, it was an important piece of equipment, because we have

20 20.000 square metres of hospital floor and it had to be cleaned, and it

21 was wartime and many people did not turn up for work, and it was of great

22 help to us.

23 Q. Prior to the receipt of this particular machine, had you had a

24 similar size machine or had you had a machine that was of a different size

25 for the floor cleaning?

Page 4511

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4512

1 A. We had something, but it was a small machine, not very efficient.

2 Q. And did the receipt of this machine improve the situation as far

3 as floor cleaning in the hospital was concerned?

4 A. Well, it did, as I said, because we had 20.000 square metres of

5 surface there, so we needed fewer people involved in cleaning and less

6 supplies.

7 Q. And what was the date upon which you received this machine from

8 Dusko Sikirica?

9 A. As it is stated here, on the 1st of August. I can add that it was

10 a Saturday.

11 Q. The person from whom you received the machine, Dusko Sikirica, was

12 he somebody that you had known from before the war?

13 A. I had not known him before the war. I didn't live in Prijedor. I

14 lived in Gradina. But I would see him during the war. We were not

15 personally acquainted.

16 Q. Did you see him -- apart from this occasion, the 1st of August,

17 1992, did you see him on other occasions at the hospital?

18 A. I did, following that day.

19 Q. Had you seen him at the hospital prior to the occasion on which

20 you received the machine from him?

21 A. Yes, I did see him before that day too, on several occasions.

22 Q. And whereabouts in the hospital? What part of the hospital did

23 you see him in before you received the machine?

24 A. I would see him at the entrance. Also there was a police platoon

25 that provided security for the hospital, so I saw him around the hospital

Page 4513

1 too.

2 Q. And when you saw him around the hospital, what was it that he was

3 doing?

4 A. There was a police platoon. I don't know how many men. They

5 provided security for the hospital, at the entrance, the hallways. It was

6 wartime.

7 Q. And was he part of that police platoon?

8 A. I don't know that.

9 Q. Focusing for a moment on the period before you received the

10 machine from him, how long before you received the machine from him did

11 you first see him at the hospital?

12 A. A couple of times, like the others. I did not pay very much

13 attention to the police presence. I was focusing on my job which was

14 technical services, but in passing, I saw.

15 Q. What I was after, Mr. Djervida, was the period of time before the

16 machine was brought to the hospital. How long before that machine was

17 brought in did you first see Dusko Sikirica at the hospital?

18 A. Well, I don't know how many days; maybe up to ten, seven, eight.

19 I don't know.

20 Q. And after the machine was received, how long did you continue to

21 see him at the hospital; for what period?

22 A. Well, several times when I would come to work.

23 Q. And how long did that go on for?

24 A. I think throughout August, the police was there for the security

25 of the hospital.

Page 4514

1 MR. GREAVES: Yes, would you wait there, please.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you, Your

4 Honour.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: No cross-examination? Ms. Baly?

6 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Baly:

8 Q. You've indicated that during this period before the machine was

9 brought to the hospital, that you saw Mr. Sikirica at the hospital a

10 couple of times, "like the others," you said. What others are you

11 referring to?

12 A. I said the police platoon. I don't know their number but they

13 provided security for the hospital.

14 Q. You also said that you were engaged in your own work at that time,

15 and that you didn't pay much attention to what he's doing; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Correct, because there was no power, there was no water, and we

18 had to keep the hospital running.

19 Q. Yes. And when was it that you were first asked to cast your mind

20 back to 1992, and in particular, to the whereabouts of Mr. Sikirica at

21 that time? When were you first asked to think back to 1992?

22 A. Nobody asked me. I remembered. The machine is still at the

23 hospital.

24 Q. Yes, but did somebody approach you and ask you something about the

25 machine or something about Mr. Sikirica?

Page 4515

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4516

1 A. Well, yes. The Defence counsel.

2 Q. And when was that?

3 A. I don't know whether it was in January or February.

4 Q. January or February of this year?

5 A. Yes, this year.

6 Q. And when you were approached, were you shown these documents that

7 record the date on which the machine was received as being the 1st of

8 August 1992? Were you shown those documents?

9 A. Yes, I was.

10 Q. And it's those documents that you base your recollection on? That

11 is, it's that date that's recorded on the document from which you conclude

12 that you saw Mr. Sikirica; is that correct?

13 A. Yes. I also have it in my agenda as an entry, as all other

14 significant things.

15 Q. What exactly is your agenda?

16 A. It's an agenda book where I noted down all important things then,

17 as I have continued to do to date, regarding business.

18 Q. So it's another document that records the machine as having been

19 brought on the 1st of August; is that right?

20 A. Yes, my personal note.

21 Q. So it's possible that, in terms of the period after the machine

22 was brought, that Mr. Sikirica wasn't at the hospital until, say, after

23 the 5th of August. That's possible, isn't it?

24 A. I don't know. It doesn't seem possible.

25 Q. Why doesn't it seem possible, given that your recollection is

Page 4517

1 based upon the document that records the machine as having been brought to

2 the hospital on the 1st of August?

3 A. I don't understand exactly what you're trying to say.

4 Q. I'm suggesting to you that your recollection of having seen

5 Mr. Sikirica at the hospital is based entirely upon the documents that you

6 were shown and your agenda that records this floor polisher as having been

7 received by Mr. Sikirica on the 1st of August, 1992. Do you understand?

8 A. Well, yes. On the basis of my notes and of the documents.

9 Q. So therefore you have no independent recollection - that's apart

10 from the documents - as to the date or dates upon which you saw

11 Mr. Sikirica at the hospital. Would you agree with that?

12 A. I do remember, of course I do, because we tested the machine in

13 front of him. We tested it to see whether it was in working order or

14 not. Of course I remember that.

15 Q. And that was on the 1st of August; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Let's focus on what you can remember for the moment, and again

18 I'll suggest to you that your memory as to when Mr. Sikirica was at the

19 hospital is based entirely upon those documents which record the date upon

20 which he brought the machine as being the 1st of August. Do you agree

21 with that?

22 A. I agree that it is both in the document and in my note. We spent

23 a certain time there testing it and everything else. We didn't just

24 receive it without checking it.

25 Q. Yes. I understand that. But it's possible, isn't it, that in

Page 4518

1 terms of this month that you saw him working at the hospital, that it was

2 sometime, say, after the 5th of August? That's possible, isn't it?

3 A. It's impossible. The document is dated 1st of August.

4 Q. You have no independent recollection of seeing him on any other

5 particular date. You follow?

6 A. I indeed do not understand what you're trying to say.

7 Q. Let me put it this way: You have no other documents which you can

8 use to refresh your memory as to when he was there, that is, apart from

9 the documents in relation to the floor polisher. That's correct, isn't

10 it?

11 A. Yes. No other documents. That is correct.

12 Q. And so I suggest to you that you're assuming that he was there for

13 the month or so after the 1st of August only because you have that

14 document.

15 A. Yes. There is a document, there's my note in the agenda book, and

16 the memory.

17 Q. You, as you've quite fairly said, were involved with your own

18 duties, and so you weren't paying a great deal of attention to what

19 Mr. Sikirica was doing when he was at the hospital; correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And Keraterm camp is some two kilometres away from the hospital;

22 correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 MS. BALY: Thank you.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Baly.

Page 4519

1 Mr. Greaves.

2 Re-examined by Mr. Greaves:

3 Q. Yes. Can you help me about this, please, just so that we're

4 clear: The document that's been referred to in the English language as

5 your agenda, is that what we would think of as a diary, with entries for

6 each day of the month and each day of the year?

7 A. You mean my agenda book?

8 Q. Yes. Just describe -- is that a book which contains, like a

9 diary, entries for each day and date of the year?

10 A. Yes. It was my personal agenda book or diary, and because we had

11 the sequence of events moving along very fast, I needed to keep notes.

12 Because of the shortages of power and water, for instance, for the

13 dialysis purposes and things like that, I had to keep all these notes.

14 Q. And you've described this book as being one where you put notes

15 about important events. Is it the position that the arrival of this

16 machine fell into the category of important events requiring you or

17 motivating you to make an entry in your agenda?

18 A. Well, yes.

19 Q. And is it, as you have described, those documents and your memory

20 which enable you to say that thereafter you continued to see Dusko

21 Sikirica at the hospital?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

24 Do Your Honours have any questions, please?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: No.

Page 4520

1 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. May he be released, please?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Djervida, that concludes your testimony and

3 you are released.

4 MR. GREAVES: And may the document acquire an exhibit number,

5 please.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

7 MR. GREAVES: I'm grateful.

8 THE REGISTRAR: D33/1.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 MR. GREAVES: Dusko Coric, please.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Which page is that?

12 MR. GREAVES: 9280, Your Honour.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let the witness make the declaration.

15 WITNESS: DUSKO CORIC

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

20 Examined by Mr. Greaves:

21 Q. Mr. Coric, would you please tell us your full names and your date

22 of birth.

23 A. Dusko Coric, 1st of March, 1963.

24 Q. And do you live in Prijedor and are you of Serb ethnicity?

25 A. Yes. I live in Prijedor and I'm of Serb ethnicity.

Page 4521

1 Q. Have you worked at Prijedor general hospital since 1986?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And from 1987, were you working there as a warehouse clerk?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you help us about this, please: The people who were working

6 in your section, were they drawn from all the ethnic backgrounds that

7 existed in Prijedor before the war?

8 A. Yes. There were Serbs, Croats, and Muslims working there.

9 Q. And is that a situation which continued throughout the summer

10 months of 1992?

11 A. The interethnic relations were all right until the interethnic

12 conflict started.

13 Q. Yes. The question which I asked you and which I'd like you to

14 deal with, please: Did the people from different ethnic backgrounds, did

15 they continue to work at the hospital throughout the summer of 1992?

16 A. Not all the summer. I don't remember, but they started leaving on

17 their own in May and June.

18 Q. Prior to May 1992, did you know Dusko Sikirica?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. How long had you known him prior to May 1992?

21 A. I've known him for a very long time.

22 Q. And how did you come to know him? Was he someone who lived near

23 you, or was he a friend or at school with you? How did you know him?

24 A. He lived near me and we went to school together; not the same

25 class but same school.

Page 4522

1 Q. And would you call yourself an acquaintance or a friend or a good

2 friend? How would you describe your relationship with him?

3 A. Dusko is a very good pal, a friend, like ...

4 Q. Help me about this: Was one of the duties you had as a warehouse

5 clerk involved in receiving items that had been donated from persons

6 outside the hospital?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. GREAVES: May he look, please, at D31 and D32.

9 Q. Would you look, please, at these two documents, Mr. Coric, and

10 when you've looked at them, tell us what they are, please.

11 A. This is a gift that Dusko Sikirica delivered to our hospital as a

12 gift from Mr. Smail Mesanovic. It was a machine for floor cleaning,

13 including tile cleaning.

14 Q. And were you present when Mr. Sikirica brought that machine to the

15 hospital?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Prior to that machine being brought to the hospital -- and I think

18 the date on there is the 1st of August. Prior to the 1st of August, had

19 you seen Dusko Sikirica at the hospital?

20 A. Dule started working as -- on security, I think, on the 27th, on

21 the security of the building.

22 Q. And when he started working on the security of the building, did

23 you see him, and indeed did you speak to him on that occasion?

24 A. Not much, just exchanged greeting on -- as I was arriving to

25 work. It was all done, just fast.

Page 4523

1 Q. In which area of the hospital did you see him for the first time?

2 A. At the entrance to the hospital. They were sitting there.

3 Q. And when you spoke to him, did you establish with him what his

4 duties at the hospital were?

5 A. To provide security for the building.

6 Q. And after the 27th of July, did you continue to see him on a daily

7 basis or weekly basis? Can you help us about that?

8 A. Not on a daily basis. They worked in shifts until, I think, the

9 end of August, somewhere around there.

10 Q. Is there any indication on the two documents you've got in front

11 of you that it was Dusko Sikirica who was recorded as having brought the

12 item to the hospital?

13 A. As far as I can see, there is his signature there.

14 Q. After the 1st of August, did you continue to see him in the same

15 place at the hospital or was he engaged in duties elsewhere in the

16 hospital?

17 A. In the lobby, for the most part.

18 Q. And did you see him in the days immediately following the delivery

19 of the machine?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. And until when did you continue to see Dusko Sikirica at the

22 hospital?

23 A. As far as I can recall, sometime towards the close of August.

24 Q. And when you saw him in the lobby, what was he doing in the

25 lobby?

Page 4524

1 A. Where the duty officers were sitting, in a chair or at the desk.

2 Q. And did you visit the lobby frequently as part of your duties or

3 go through it frequently, on a daily basis?

4 A. Every day, every morning when I went to work.

5 Q. Would you speak with Dusko on those occasions?

6 A. Well, briefly, I would just say, "Hello, what's new?" And then I

7 would hurry on to work because I had a lot to do.

8 Q. Would you spend -- if I can just deal with your knowledge of Dusko

9 Sikirica before the war, would you spend time, as it were, in social

10 situations with him?

11 A. I didn't understand. Could you repeat your question?

12 Q. Yes. Would you spend time with him? For example, would you go to

13 a bar with him or to a cafe or out to dinner with him or visit his home?

14 That's what I mean by meeting him in a social setting.

15 A. You mean before the war? Before the war?

16 Q. Before the war, yes.

17 A. Before the war, well, no. Well, he had his friends and I had

18 mine, but we were good friends.

19 Q. Were you able to observe him in the company with people from other

20 ethnic backgrounds?

21 A. Of course.

22 Q. And what impression did you form of how he dealt with, got on

23 with, people who weren't Serb? In other words, the Muslims and the

24 Croats?

25 A. They would have a drink together, joke around, keep company

Page 4525

1 together, and so on. Not just he, but everyone; people of different

2 ethnic backgrounds socialised before the war.

3 Q. And as to his personal character, would you describe him as

4 extrovert, outgoing, noisy, or introvert, quiet and retiring? How would

5 you describe him?

6 A. He was quiet but he liked to joke. But he was quiet. He -- he

7 didn't push himself forward.

8 MR. GREAVES: Would you wait there, please.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any cross-examination?

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: No cross-examination?

12 MR. LAWRENCE: No, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly?

14 MS. BALY: Your Honour, I probably will be some time with this

15 witness. I don't know whether Your Honour wishes to adjourn for the

16 afternoon.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We will adjourn. Mr. Coric, we are going

18 to take the adjournment for the afternoon. We will resume at 9.30 in the

19 morning. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence

20 with anybody, and that includes the members of the Defence.

21 We are adjourned.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

23 4.06 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday the 28th day

24 of June, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

25