1 Thursday, 28 June 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.40 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, you were about to commence your
8 MS. BALY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
9 WITNESS: DUSKO CORIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Cross-examined by Ms. Baly:
12 Q. Mr. Coric, you gave some evidence yesterday to the effect that in
13 May and June of 1992, Muslims and Croatian people started to -- that is,
14 Muslim and Croatian employees started to leave the hospital; is that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So in effect, during the summer of 1992, the situation was that it
18 was predominantly Serbian people who were working at the hospital; is that
20 A. I didn't understand your question. I'm sorry.
21 Q. Okay. Let me ask you that again. Is it the case, given your
22 evidence that Muslims and Croatian employees began to leave the hospital
23 in May and June of 1992, is it the case, then, that during that summer
24 there were mainly remaining working at the hospital Serbian employees?
25 A. Yes. Yes. The Muslims and Croats mostly left of their own
1 accord, so it was mostly Serbs who were left.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, let me ask you: It wasn't until very recently
3 that you were first asked to think about when Mr. Sikirica was at the
4 hospital in 1992. It wasn't until very recently that you were asked to
5 cast your mind back to 1992; is that correct?
6 A. You mean the time when he started providing security for the
8 Q. No. What I'm asking you, Mr. Coric, is: When was it that someone
9 came to you and said -- and asked you questions about when Mr. Sikirica
10 was at the hospital in 1992? When were you first asked to think about
11 that issue?
12 A. In January this year.
13 Q. And at that time, were you shown a number of documents that
14 recorded the fact that Mr. Sikirica had brought the floor polisher to the
15 hospital on the 1st of August in 1992?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And is it from those documents that you concluded that it was
18 around that time that he was at the hospital for about, I think your
19 evidence was about a month; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, but he started working a bit before that, around the 27th of
21 July. Because I know him, I know he started working as security for the
22 hospital before the 1st of August, before he brought that machine in.
23 Q. But in any event, he worked at the hospital for approximately one
24 month; is that correct?
25 A. Around the 27th of July until the end of August, around that time.
1 I'm not sure, but that was the period when he was there.
2 Q. Do you actually have a recollection now of what took place on the
3 27th of July, 1992?
4 A. Well, nothing happened except we had our national gathering.
5 Q. Has somebody suggested to you that it was the 27th of July, 1992,
6 that Dusko Sikirica started working at the hospital?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you say that you can recall seeing him on that day at the
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You yourself in 1992, where were you residing at that time, which
13 A. Cirkin Polje, which is a suburb of the town overlooking the
15 Q. Now, you indicated yesterday that Mr. Sikirica, when he was at the
16 hospital, worked shifts so that you didn't always see him when you were
17 there; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So is it the case that some days he wasn't, he wasn't at the
21 A. Yes. I was always in the first shift, and he changed shifts.
22 There were three shifts, and he rotated. It wasn't always the same on
23 every day.
24 Q. And how did those shifts work? Was there a morning shift, a day
25 shift, and an evening shift, or how did they work?
1 A. I think that's exactly how it was.
2 Q. So in any event, some days you just didn't see him; that's
4 A. Well, yes, because I was in shift number one every day, and he
5 would sometimes be on shift two or three, so of course I wouldn't see him.
6 Q. And you also indicated yesterday that you were very busy in the
7 warehouse performing your particular duties there.
8 A. Yes. After the Muslims and the Croats left, I had to do the work
9 that had previously been done by three people.
10 Q. So that during the days you were not, of course, observing what
11 Mr. Sikirica was doing because you were so busy yourself; is that correct?
12 A. Precisely so, but my department is in the basement in the back of
13 the building, so I didn't have time to walk around and observe what people
14 were doing. I was overworked. I was working from 7.00 a.m. till about
15 4.00 p.m. almost every day.
16 Q. You indicated yesterday that you mixed on a social basis with
17 Mr. Sikirica before the war but not during the war; is that correct?
18 A. It is correct, because when he got married, he became a family man
19 and I was still a bachelor, so we didn't socialise that much any more.
20 When we were both unmarried before the war, we did.
21 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Coric.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Baly.
23 Mr. Greaves.
24 MR. GREAVES: I have no re-examination. Do Your Honours have any
25 questions for the witness, please?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Coric, you worked at the hospital when you
3 say Mr. Sikirica also worked there. Are you in a position to say whether
4 there would be any records at the hospital to show that Mr. Sikirica
5 worked at the hospital?
6 A. Those documents could only be in the police station in our town.
7 The hospital had nothing to do with it.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why is that? Why would the records of his
9 working at the hospital not be at the hospital?
10 A. It's the people who provide the security that draw up rosters, I
11 think. I don't know, but that's what I think.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Are you in a position to say whether, in
13 relation to the kind of work that you say Mr. Sikirica did at the
14 hospital, he would have to sign something like a roster showing that he
15 came on duty at a particular time and left at a particular time?
16 A. I don't know. I think that should be in the SUP, the police
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: You were present when Mr. Sikirica brought the
19 machine, the gift from a Muslim. Did he say anything to indicate how he
20 came in possession of the machine?
21 A. He said, "I've brought this machine along and it's a gift from
22 Smail Mesanovic for the hospital. It's a donation to the hospital." I
23 was there.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
25 MR. GREAVES: May he be released, please.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Coric, that concludes your testimony and you
2 are released.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves. The next witness.
6 MR. GREAVES: I'm going to leave the usher -- but it is in fact so
7 that we can prepare Dusan Grbic, and if you look for 9278, top right-hand
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
11 WITNESS: DUSAN GRBIC
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. GREAVES: I wonder if the technical staff would lower the
18 ELMO, please. Thank you very much.
19 Examined by Mr. Greaves:
20 Q. Mr. Grbic, would you be so kind, please, as to tell us your full
22 A. Dusan Grbic.
23 Q. And your date of birth, please.
24 A. 21st of October, 1959.
25 Q. And is it right that you are a resident of Prijedor and that you
1 are of Serb ethnicity?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. And is it correct that in 1986 you commenced employment at the
4 general hospital in Prijedor?
5 A. Not in 1996, but 1997, September 1997.
6 Q. Do you mean 1997 or 1987?
7 A. 1987.
8 Q. Prior to commencing work at the general hospital, had you worked
9 somewhere else in Prijedor?
10 A. I worked in Celpak, from 1980 until 1987.
11 Q. When you worked at Celpak, did you come to know somebody called
12 Dusko Sikirica?
13 A. Yes. We worked in the same department. He was providing physical
14 security and I was in the fire prevention department.
15 Q. And how well did you know him when you worked at Celpak?
16 A. Well, we knew each other very well because we were working
17 together closely.
18 Q. At the beginning of the conflict in your country in 1992, were you
19 recalled to military service?
20 A. Yes, in mid-June.
21 Q. In due course, did you return to Prijedor to the hospital?
22 A. The same day. I just responded to the summons, and then I came
24 Q. And did you resume your work at the hospital?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What was the work that you were doing at the hospital in June
3 A. I was in the security service.
4 Q. And what functions did you carry out as a member of the security
5 at the general hospital?
6 A. I was in charge of fire prevention and in the security service.
7 Q. And when you describe it as the security service, what sort of
8 tasks did the security service carry out at the hospital?
9 A. Well, controlling entry and exit, mostly at the wards.
10 Q. In the period of June to August 1992, were additional people sent
11 to the hospital in order to carry out security tasks?
12 A. Yes. People from the police were sent.
13 Q. And were they regular police officers or reserve police officers?
14 A. They were reserve police officers. They had the same uniforms,
15 but they were reserve police officers.
16 Q. Can you help us about this: Were you employed in shifts on your
17 duties as a security officer?
18 A. Yes. We worked for 24 hours, and then we had three days off.
19 Q. Did the reserve police officers work the same pattern of shifts,
20 or did they have a different pattern?
21 A. No, they would work for eight hours on two consecutive days.
22 Eight hours the first shift, then the second day they would be eight hours
23 on the second shift, and then they would have the third day off.
24 Q. During the period of June to August 1992, were there many people
25 being brought in on a daily basis to the hospital as patients?
1 A. Yes, yes. There were patients, yes.
2 Q. And were the patients who came in, in that period, were they of
3 mixed ethnicity, in other words, Serbs, Muslims, and Croats?
4 A. Well, yes, yes. There were all three nationalities.
5 Q. Did there come a time when you saw Dusko Sikirica in this period,
6 June to August 1992?
7 A. Yes, I remember that that was at the end of July and beginning of
9 Q. And when you saw Dusko Sikirica, was he wearing any sort of
11 A. Yes, he was wearing a police uniform.
12 Q. Did he join the group of reserve policemen who had been detached
13 to the hospital?
14 A. Yes. He was one of them, that is, one of the seven or eight who
15 were detached to the hospital.
16 Q. Did you -- do you know the names of any of the others who were
17 serving with him who were from the reserve police?
18 A. There was Zeljko Trkulja, Milan Vukovrat, Svetko Njegic. There
19 was a man named Kos. That's approximately the names that I know. I know
20 others, but not by name.
21 Q. When you saw Dusko Sikirica at the hospital, did he have any sort
22 of rank, in other words, more than just an ordinary police officer?
23 A. No. They had no rank insignia on their shoulders.
24 Q. When you would see Dusko Sikirica at the hospital, whereabouts
25 would he be on duty?
1 A. There was a room near the entrance of the hospital, that's where
2 they were, and our area was about 20 metres beyond that. This is where we
3 were checking visitors to the hospital, people who were coming in.
4 Q. And apart from physically checking visitors who came in to the
5 hospital, was any patrolling done of the grounds of the hospital?
6 A. Yes, they were also in charge for the perimeter of the hospital.
7 Q. How long was it that Dusko Sikirica remained at the hospital as
8 part of the guard detachment?
9 A. It may have been until the end of August or early September. I
10 know that they were -- that group stayed there until that period of time,
11 end of August, early September.
12 Q. During that period, would you go and speak with, spend time with,
13 Dusko Sikirica in the hospital?
14 A. Yes. He would usually come to my room, and we would sit down and
15 we would have coffee, things like that.
16 Q. And would you see him on a daily basis?
17 A. Not on a daily basis. It depended on when our shifts would
19 Q. Did you ever observe Dusko Sikirica assisting staff at the
20 hospital, bringing patients in in any way, physically carrying them in?
21 A. Yes. They did that too. They would assist from the ambulance or
22 they would help -- if the power was cut off, they would help from the
23 infirmary to the other ward.
24 Q. And those people who were given such assistance, again, were they
25 of mixed ethnicities, in other words, Muslims, Croats, and Serbs?
1 A. Yes, there were different people.
2 Q. When Dusko Sikirica gave such assistance, did you ever observe him
3 or hear him in any way making remarks about the fact that people were
4 Muslim or that they were Croat or whatever?
5 A. No, we did not discriminate; at least, at the hospital we tried
6 not to treat people in that way.
7 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Mr. Grbic, would you be so kind as to wait
8 there and answer any questions that my learned friends have, please.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.
10 MR. PETROVIC: No questions. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: No cross-examination.
12 Ms. Baly.
13 MS. BALY: Thank you.
14 Cross-examined by Ms. Baly:
15 Q. Mr. Grbic, some of those patients of Muslim and Croatian ethnicity
16 who came to the hospital had been brought there from Keraterm camp.
17 That's correct, isn't it?
18 A. Well, we did not know where they were coming from.
19 Q. Some of them came with severe injuries to their bodies. That's
20 correct, isn't it?
21 A. There were wounded, yes, they were, but I don't know where they
22 were coming from.
23 Q. You yourself, when you worked, did you have to sign in when you
24 commenced your shift and sign off when you finished?
25 A. Yes. We had a log, the four of us who were working in security.
1 Q. And where was that log kept?
2 A. We had it in a drawer in our room.
3 Q. And the additional police officers sent, that is, the group of
4 reserve police officers, including Mr. Sikirica, did they also have to
5 sign a similar log?
6 A. They had their own roster, but they kept their own log books. We
7 had no access to them.
8 Q. And where were those log books kept?
9 A. They had their own room and they had their own drawers.
10 Q. That's at the hospital; is that right?
11 A. In the hospital, yes.
12 Q. Now, you've indicated that because you worked this shift where you
13 had every third day off and Mr. Sikirica was also working a different type
14 of shift, that you wouldn't see him on a daily basis. How often would you
15 say that you did see him, that you did coincide with your shifts?
16 A. Well, let's say three times over a period of about ten days.
17 Q. And those three times, on those particular occasions you would
18 have a cup of coffee but you wouldn't spend much time together, would you?
19 A. Yes, I had time to have a cup of coffee. It depended on the
20 amount of work, whether it was very busy, whether there were patients
21 coming in, what the frequency of arrivals at the hospital was.
22 Q. Now, it's only been in very recent times that you've been asked to
23 think about what happened and when you saw Mr. Sikirica in 1992. That's
24 correct, isn't it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So that the dates you've given us in terms of seeing Mr. Sikirica
2 at the hospital are only approximate, aren't they?
3 A. I'm sure that this was before the 1st, because on the 2nd of
4 August I asked for a day off, and that is -- I went to a sort of popular
5 gathering, and that is when I first met my wife. I was not married at the
6 time, so I then met my now wife.
7 Q. And that was on the 2nd of August, 1992; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You have no recollection of seeing Mr. Sikirica on that day; is
10 that right?
11 A. No, I don't recall seeing him on that date, but when I arrived to
12 the next shift, I saw him; I remember.
13 Q. When was the next shift after the 2nd of August?
14 A. I was supposed to work on the 2nd, but a colleague replaced me, so
15 I worked on the 3rd.
16 Q. You can't recall the precise date on which Mr. Sikirica finished
17 working at the hospital, can you?
18 A. I told you, it was somewhere around the beginning of September,
19 but I cannot say exactly whether it was the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th. It was in
20 early September.
21 Q. I would suggest to you that it's the same situation for when he
22 commenced work at the hospital: It's approximate. You can't remember the
23 precise date, can you?
24 A. No, I cannot recall the exact date. The 3rd or 4th, but not the
25 exact date.
1 Q. The 3rd or 4th of August; is that right?
2 A. No, September.
3 Q. I'm asking you about when Mr. Sikirica started working at the
4 hospital with that group of other police officers. What I'm suggesting to
5 you is that you can't recall the precise date on which he started working
6 at the hospital. Do you agree with that?
7 A. 27th or 28th of July because that was several days before the 2nd
8 of August. And also, he finished on the 3rd or 4th of September when the
9 -- was several days after the beginning of September, that is when the
10 whole group stopped working.
11 Q. Has somebody suggested to you that it was the 27th or the 28th of
12 July on which he started working?
13 A. No, nobody suggested it.
14 Q. How is it that you're able to recall those dates, that is, the
15 27th or the 28th of July?
16 A. Because on the 2nd I met my wife when I went to the gathering.
17 This is when I met her. I recall that very well, and this -- and I know
18 that I saw Sikirica several days before that at the hospital.
19 Q. In 1992, which village were you from?
20 A. Ljeskare.
21 Q. So on the 24th of June in 1992, were you working at the hospital
22 on that day, or were you elsewhere?
23 A. On the 24th of June? Can you please repeat.
24 Q. On the 24th of June, 1992, were you working at the hospital or
25 were you elsewhere?
1 A. I was working at the hospital, but I don't know exactly where I
2 was on the 24th.
3 MS. BALY: Would you just excuse me for a moment. Yes, thank you.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Baly.
5 Mr. Greaves.
6 MR. GREAVES: No re-examination. Do Your Honours have any
7 questions, please?
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Grbic, that concludes your testimony and you
9 are released.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, I'd like to find out how many more
12 witnesses do you have for this week?
13 MR. GREAVES: I have one more.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: One more for the week?
15 MR. GREAVES: One more for the week.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: And for next week?
17 MR. GREAVES: Next week it's the -- the balance are all arriving
18 on Saturday or Sunday, I think it is.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: How many?
21 MR. GREAVES: It's eight, I think, eight or nine. I will do a
22 quick count. Ten, I'm reminded by my learned friend Mr. Londrovic.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: When is your case scheduled to be concluded?
24 MR. GREAVES: By the time when you start the Plenary.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, just before the Plenary. That's the 12th.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 The 12th will be the last day, the 12th of July?
2 MR. GREAVES: Yes, that's the period that has been allotted.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: The 10th.
4 MR. GREAVES: The 10th.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: 10th, yes.
6 MR. GREAVES: Yes. I anticipate, however, that we shall probably
7 finish by the end of next week. That, in part, is because having gone to
8 Prijedor, we have been able to cut down on the number that we'd initially
9 thought of. Is that helpful, or can I assist in any other way about
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's, that's sufficient.
12 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.
13 The next witness is a protected witness, so the blinds should be
14 down. And I need to make the application, I'm sorry.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't know whose liability that is.
16 MR. GREAVES: I wasn't looking, so I wasn't aware of it. It may
17 be that because this is a witness who has -- who you may grant face
18 distortion to, it may be that we need to have that sorted out before we
19 can call him.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we would, because ...
21 MR. GREAVES: Yes, how are you going to get him over there,
22 because he is in a room that --
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh, okay. Our witnesses --
24 MR. GREAVES: That, I think, is too complicated. It may be
25 sensible for Your Honours to rise for a few minutes, I don't know.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: So that he could be brought from that side.
2 MR. GREAVES: Either that, or the blind could be restored. I
3 suspect it's probably -- that looks fairly fundamentally --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I think it's simpler to bring him from that
5 side, so we will rise for five minutes.
6 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
7 --- Break taken at 10.22 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.35 a.m.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.
10 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, the next witness appears, a summary of
11 his, at 9276 in the bundle. The application in respect of protective
12 measures is that he be granted the right to have his evidence given under
13 a pseudonym and facial distortion. Your Honour, he deals essentially with
14 two aspects of the case: firstly, events at Hambarine in 1992; and
15 secondly, events at the hospital in July and August of 1992. His concerns
16 are that he is identified by name as someone who, in particular, took part
17 in the events in Hambarine in 1992, which is set out at paragraphs 5 and
18 6, but also generally concerned to be identified as someone who has given
19 evidence in the Keraterm case.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, we observe that you haven't really
22 identified any specific basis for the grant of the measures. I mean,
23 merely to say that he has a concern that if identified by name something
24 might happen to him is not really enough. It's a very general concern.
25 MR. GREAVES: Yes. In particular, if you look at paragraphs 5 and
1 6, he's involved in one particular incident. He's concerned that if he is
2 identified, there will be repercussions, or there may be repercussions
3 upon him or his family. And if you look at paragraphs 5 and 6, there
4 is a particular individual was -- was subject of his work in a particular
5 part of the conflict, about which we have heard. That may well be a
6 matter of some contention on one side or the other. If he's identified as
7 having been part of that in any way, his concern was that that would have
8 personal repercussions for him or his family.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are concerned that protective measures should
11 not be seen as something that would be granted automatically, but in the
12 circumstances, particularly since there's no objection from the
13 Prosecution, we believe that it is right to grant the measures. The
14 measures are granted.
15 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for this witness will be DD.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
18 WITNESS: WITNESS DD
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please be seated.
23 MR. GREAVES: May we go briefly into private session whilst I
24 establish his identity.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
1 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
2 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 MR. GREAVES:
17 Q. Witness DD, is it right that you were employed from 1986 onwards
18 and you started employment then in the first aid station, part of the
19 Prijedor health centre, [redacted]?
20 A. I worked in the first aid from 1986.
21 Q. I would like to ask you now about May 1992, please, Witness DD.
22 Did there come a time in May 1992 when there was fighting in the Prijedor
23 area at the end of May of that year? Do you recall that?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Was there in May 1992 an attack on Prijedor?
1 A. Yes, the 31st of May.
2 Q. During the course of that attack, were you on duty?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And during the course of that day, did you hear the sounds of
5 heavy fighting taking place in Prijedor?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In due course, did people who had been wounded in that fighting
8 start to arrive at the hospital?
9 A. Yes, to the first aid station, which is located in the centre of
11 Q. Initially, the wounded people who were coming in, were they
12 civilians or police or military?
13 A. In the early morning hours, they were policemen. Later on, there
14 were also civilians and soldiers.
15 Q. And were you responsible for giving any sort of initial treatment
16 to those wounded people?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At that time, were you able to get people from the first aid
19 station to the hospital proper?
20 A. Not until 8.30.
21 Q. And were you then able to transfer some of the wounded to the
23 A. [redacted]-- because the first aid station was
24 overcrowded and some of the wounded were in danger of their lives, so on
25 my own responsibility I took them, although there was still shooting in
1 the town, but I transferred them to the hospital on my own responsibility.
2 Q. I'd like now to turn to an incident which took place at Hambarine
3 near Prijedor. Were you aware of the existence of a checkpoint at
5 A. No. Later on it turned out that the Territorial Defence of Bosnia
6 and Herzegovina had set up that checkpoint. It may have been there, but I
7 didn't know about it.
8 Q. [redacted]
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who was he?
11 A. As far as I know, as I learned later, [redacted]
17 A. They had organised their own medical corps of the Territorial
18 Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they had a medical centre, and he
19 was there in that outpatients' clinic. [redacted]
1 taken in. And I don't know what happened later on, but I assume that he
2 was well taken care of.
3 Q. [redacted]
5 A. The -- it was the doctor who was on duty who was in charge of the
6 ambulance drivers. He was the one who issued us with our orders and told
7 us to go to certain places, and he was the one who told us that we should
8 pick up that man, and so I did. I went to collect him.
9 Q. Did you have to pass through the Serb military positions in order
10 to get to Hambarine?
11 A. There were only a few policemen. There was no Serbian military
12 there at that time, but then there were Muslim forces from the cemetery --
13 from the, sorry, concrete plant onwards. It was the Muslim military. And
14 I passed through their units and went to their checkpoint, and then I came
15 back to the hospital.
16 Q. And may we conclude from that that you were given authority by the
17 police who were there to pass through and go on up to the Muslim
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And did you explain to the police what you were doing and who you
21 were going to collect?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I want to ask you now, please, Witness DD, about a period July and
24 August 1992. Do you know, and did you then in 1992 know, Dusko Sikirica?
25 A. Yes, I knew him.
1 Q. How long before the war had you known Dusko Sikirica?
2 A. I knew him mostly from the street. We said hello to each other,
3 but nothing more than that.
4 Q. Did there come a time when you saw Dusko Sikirica at the hospital?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you say roughly when it was that you saw Dusko Sikirica at the
8 A. I used to see Dusko before that wearing the uniform of a reserve
9 policeman, and in the hospital I saw him in the second half of July.
10 Q. And when you saw him at the hospital in the second half of July,
11 what was he doing at the hospital?
12 A. Securing the hospital.
13 Q. Did you continue to see him after the second half of July, and if
14 so, until what time?
15 A. I can't tell you the date exactly, but as I went to the hospital
16 every day at different times -- I remember the second half of July because
17 on the 18th of July my son was born in that hospital, in 1992. So I had
18 even more reason to go to the hospital, not only in an official capacity,
19 but privately as well.
20 Q. And do you know if Dusko Sikirica knew about the birth of your
22 A. Well, people knew. Everybody knew me, and there were a lot of
23 policemen providing security in two or three shifts. I don't know exactly
24 how they were organised. But they congratulated me, and I think he knew.
25 Q. And can you help us about this: Did you continue to work at the
1 hospital from July to August?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you continue to see Dusko Sikirica in August 1992 at the
5 A. I can't tell you the exact date, but I know I did see him in that
6 period, in the summer, and I connected in my mind to the birth of my son.
7 But whether it was August or September ...
8 Q. And on those occasions when you saw him, was he still part of the
9 security detachment?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And were you able to observe what tasks he was carrying out as
12 part of the security detachment?
13 A. I didn't know that. I would just see him at the entrance to the
14 hospital, upstairs in the hospital, but in what capacity he was there as
15 security ...
16 Q. Did you work every day of the week or five days of the week at
17 that period?
18 A. Yes, because there was a shortage of staff in the first aid unit,
19 so we worked round the clock, every day.
20 Q. And would you see Dusko Sikirica on a daily basis in that period?
21 A. I don't know whether it was every day, but yes, I did see him.
22 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Would you wait there, please, Witness DD.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.
25 MR. PETROVIC: No questions, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. For my first two
3 questions, might we go into private session, please.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session.
5 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 MR. RYNEVELD:
17 Q. Sir, as I understand your evidence, [redacted]
18 [redacted] is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And when the breakout of the conflict occurred, were you given
21 civilian -- were you given some military duties as well?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You did not respond to some call-out from the VRS?
24 A. I had -- until 1993, I had an obligatory work assignment at the
25 first aid unit. I was engaged in the civilian institution, in the first
1 aid station.
2 Q. And by that answer, do I understand that you were exempted from
3 military service? Is that what you're suggesting?
4 A. In that period of time, yes.
5 Q. So just so that I'm clear, sir, did you sort of get a call-out and
6 you presented your exemption certificate and they said, "Oh, okay. You
7 don't have to do military service"? Is that sort of what happened?
8 A. Well, it wasn't that I was exempt from serving in the military. I
9 didn't serve in the military at the time, but it was my obligation to be
10 at work round the clock.
11 Q. All right. Well, for the purposes of my question, then: At all
12 times that you've been talking about, you were engaged in a civilian
13 capacity and not in a military capacity; is that correct?
14 A. Until the beginning of 1993.
15 Q. All right. Now, sir, after the end of May -- I believe it was
16 your evidence that at the end of May, 31st of May, there were sounds of
17 heavy fighting and wounded were arriving, and you explained to us that on
18 that day there were both police, civilians, and soldiers that were
19 arriving; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And is it safe to say that those people were wounded as a result
22 of the armed conflict?
23 A. In the morning it was two or three policemen who arrived in the
24 first aid unit first, and they had been wounded not far from the first aid
25 station. They were wounded because they had been shot at from an ambush.
1 Q. My point is, sir, that the 31st of May people were wounded as a
2 result of an armed conflict. After the 31st of May, the fighting had
3 stopped, had it not?
4 A. Can you explain your question?
5 Q. Perhaps I'll rephrase it. You've told us about wounded arriving
6 on the 31st of May, okay? Is that -- are you with me so far?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In the month of June and July, are you aware of any fighting
9 taking place?
10 A. No.
11 Q. So there were still wounded people arriving in June, were there
13 A. No, not in the first aid unit.
14 Q. Okay. How about at the hospital at Prijedor? Do you know?
15 A. I don't know about the hospital. The first aid station is
16 separate from the hospital. The hospital is on the outskirts of town, and
17 the first aid centre is in the very centre of town.
18 Q. All right. So you didn't transport people to the hospital itself;
19 you transported people to the first aid station?
20 A. No, and to the hospital as well. Both to the first aid station
21 and then from the first aid station to the hospital, because our first aid
22 station doesn't have any specialised wards. It's just the general
24 Q. Sir, I'm going to turn to another area very briefly. The incident
25 about seeing Mr. Sikirica at the hospital, that's quite a time ago now,
1 isn't it? About nine years, roughly?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is it also safe to say, sir, that the only real memorable occasion
4 for you about that time period would have been the birth of your son?
5 A. The birth of my son, of course, but because -- I said that because
6 I came to the hospital both in an official capacity and privately because
7 my wife was in the hospital. And then after she came home, we took the
8 baby to the hospital together a few times, and then I remember very well
9 that I met Mr. Sikirica several times, both in the morning and at other
10 times, but it was in this period that I would see him in the hospital.
11 Q. Surely in 1992, the fact of meeting Mr. Sikirica was not something
12 that stood out in your mind; it was the fact of the birth of your son.
13 Isn't that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, sir, do you remember when it was that you were first
16 approached to recall the events of July of -- or August of 1992 in order
17 to come here today?
18 A. Could you repeat your question, please?
19 Q. Yes. You were approached by members of the Defence to come here
20 today to give evidence about your recollection. Do you remember when you
21 were first approached to think back to what happened in 1992?
22 A. Well, the counsel approached me some two or three months ago.
23 When Mr. Sikirica was arrested, when Mr. Sikirica was arrested I
24 immediately recalled some details from 1992. As soon as he was arrested,
25 I remembered Mr. Sikirica, and I said, "Oh, I knew him. I knew him
2 Q. Sir, how well did you know Mr. Sikirica? Did you have
3 conversations with him in July and August of 1992?
4 A. Yes. They were mostly more or less greetings because I was
5 usually in a hurry every time I went in and out of the hospital. And
6 afterwards, I don't remember exactly in what period, but I often ran into
7 Mr. Sikirica while he was at the checkpoint in Orlovci as a traffic
9 Q. And what time period are we referring to now that he was at a
10 checkpoint in Orlovci? When was that?
11 A. Well, in 1993 and 1994, my wife and I had some private business.
12 Whether it was in 1992 or 1993 or 1994, I knew him very well in that
13 period, and I know that he spent some time at that checkpoint.
14 Q. So, sir, the time that you've spoken to him was after the 1992
15 incidents when you think you saw him at the hospital; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I suggest to you, sir, you didn't have any conversations with
18 Mr. Sikirica about the birth of your son at the time of the birth of your
19 son. You didn't talk to him about that. You don't have any recollections
20 about that.
21 A. Let me tell you, I said that I came to the hospital, and there
22 were a lot of policemen there. I didn't spend time with any of them
23 specially, I just said hello.
24 Q. Did you have any discussions with Mr. Sikirica about what he did
25 prior to coming to the hospital or what other jobs he had? Did you know
1 what work he did?
2 A. No, no.
3 Q. You don't even know for sure, sir, whether it was -- whether you
4 spoke to Mr. Sikirica or whether Mr. Sikirica actually congratulated you
5 on the birth of your son. You just know that you spoke to policemen who
6 congratulated you, and at some time that summer, you remember seeing
7 Mr. Sikirica there. Is that safe to say?
8 A. Yes. I didn't say that Mr. Sikirica specially congratulated me,
9 but they knew about the birth of my son because there were a lot of
10 policemen there, and I usually left a bottle of drink on the table. And I
11 know I did see him around in that period of time. I left a bottle for
12 them. But there were no special congratulations from the policemen, just
13 from my colleagues who I worked with.
14 Q. Right. And the point I make is: You have no recollection of
15 speaking to Mr. Sikirica personally, just in general, the police who were
16 there were aware of the birth of your son and you left a bottle. Is that
17 fair to say?
18 A. I assert responsibly that I did see Mr. Sikirica around in the
19 hospital and a lot of other policemen as well who came there and did guard
21 Q. Just two more questions, sir - and I realise I'm over time, Your
22 Honour - but when you -- when you saw Mr. Sikirica, you had no
23 conversations with him, but is it -- did you assume that because he was at
24 the hospital and because there were police officers at the hospital doing
25 security, that Mr. Sikirica was also doing security at the hospital? Was
1 that an assumption you made?
2 A. Before the outbreak of the conflict, the hospital had its own
3 security. There were people who wore uniforms which were different from
4 the uniforms of the policemen who arrived to provide security for the
5 hospital. As far as I know, they were reserve policemen, and they had
6 different uniforms. They were police uniforms. And I knew that anyone
7 who was there wearing that kind of uniform, he was providing security for
8 the hospital.
9 Q. Do you know what kind of uniforms the police -- the reserve
10 policemen who were at Keraterm camp were wearing?
11 A. No. I never went to the Keraterm camp, and I don't know if they
12 had that kind of uniform or some different kind of uniform.
13 Q. So it's possible that the uniforms that the police officers who
14 were guarding Keraterm camp wore would have been the same as the people
15 who were providing security at the hospital; is that correct? You don't
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. And is it possible, sir, that Mr. Sikirica may have been at the
19 hospital when you saw him, bringing prisoners to be treated at the
20 hospital at Prijedor?
21 A. No, because at the entrance to the hospital, there was a place
22 where the reserve policemen providing security sat or stood in front, so
23 it was a place for them, not for people who came from outside.
24 Q. The fact remains, sir, you did not have any discussions with
25 Mr. Sikirica about his specific duties or what he was doing at Keraterm.
1 You assumed that.
2 A. No.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: No further questions.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.
5 Mr. Greaves.
6 MR. GREAVES: No re-examination. Do Your Honours have any
7 questions for this witness, please?
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: No.
9 Witness DD, that concludes your testimony and you are released.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, can I just briefly deal with two other
12 documents which were part of the bundle which were produced yesterday. In
13 the English version they're on pages 1 and 2 of that bundle. Your Honour,
14 those are -- and the Serbian versions thereof are letters which
15 demonstrate the provenance of the documents, and I'd ask to be able to
16 have those admitted into evidence, please, both the English and the
17 original Serbian versions.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.
19 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number D34/1, D35/1.
21 MR. GREAVES: And can I apologise for my having misjudged the
22 logistics of this week somewhat. My fault entirely.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we will adjourn now, then. Yes. We will
24 adjourn until Monday, 9.30 a.m.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.18 a.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of July
2 2001, at 9.30 a.m.