Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5122

1 Wednesday, 18 July 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, your next witness?

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, our next witness is

7 asking for protective measures, and I shall ask Mr. Rodic to explain the

8 reasons for them in a private session. Thank you.

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25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, open session.

Page 5124

1 [Open session]

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Before the war when you lived and worked in Prijedor, what was the

4 situation with regard to ethnic relations?

5 A. It was excellent. One never asked who was what ethnically.

6 Q. And could you do your job without any problems?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know, when did the authority in Prijedor change in 1992?

9 A. Well, I knew because there was this restlessness there, this

10 commotion, but I worked throughout, so that the relations between parties

11 turned out.

12 Q. And until when could you work and move around freely?

13 A. I moved about until May. I wouldn't know the date.

14 Q. And then what happened in late May 1992?

15 A. Well, the power was taken over by the SDS people, and it was on

16 the radio that flags should be put up of the Muslim and Croat ethnicity as

17 a sign that we were loyal to that authority.

18 Q. And when was the last time that you went to work or, perhaps,

19 started to work?

20 A. I cannot remember the date, but I can remember that there was the

21 shelling of Hambarine. It was about -- it was on the radio at 8 or 10,

22 that there was a checkpoint at the 13th or -- at Raskovac, that's what it

23 is called. It is about two kilometres in the direction of Bosanski Novi.

24 And my brother called, but they called him by telephone that we couldn't

25 go there, and that was, that was it.

Page 5125

1 Q. And who manned those checkpoints?

2 A. Those checkpoints were manned by active policemen or reserve in

3 blue uniforms.

4 Q. Were there guards anywhere?

5 A. Well, yes. In the beginning, yes, there were. In the beginning

6 they were all joint, but because in Croatia there was already a war on so

7 that no groups would intrude and things like that.

8 Q. When you say mixed guards, does that mean the area where you

9 lived?

10 A. Yes, yes, yes in Cerici.

11 Q. Were there any weapons around?

12 A. Yes, hunting rifles, pistols, but mostly those with licenses for

13 them.

14 Q. Was a Territorial Defence unit in your place?

15 A. Yes, there was the Territorial Defence unit. They were Muslims.

16 And then it was when there was already all this fray towards the end and

17 so that only Muslims stayed in it, the Serbs separated, and that is how it

18 happened, but that was towards the end when the attack on Prijedor was

19 about to begin. That's when it was done.

20 Q. And where were you during the attack on Prijedor?

21 A. I was at home all the time. Yes, as a matter of fact -- or,

22 rather, on the eve of it that they would collect us. I was at home all

23 the time. I didn't go anywhere. I didn't even know about the checkpoint

24 on the 13th, and it was my boss who let me know about it.

25 Q. Could you tell us, what is the checkpoint at the 13th?

Page 5126

1 A. Those were policemen. That is, my wife told me that because women

2 could move more freely around. And so there was no barrier, they just

3 controlled who -- those who wanted to go through.

4 Q. And where was -- were there any military operations in your place?

5 A. Yes. When I was at home that morning, my wife and I got up, had

6 coffee, and she told me to go and bring water because we had no water.

7 And I walked some 200 metres to a neighbour who has a well, so I took a

8 bucket along, and about 50 metres -- I was on the road, and about 50

9 metres away from my house, I could hear a shell, about three or four

10 hundred metres in that direction, when I was going to fetch the water.

11 One, two, three, around four times, three or four shells fell. And I

12 returned, I went back, because I didn't know what was going on.

13 Q. Did you see any troops around there?

14 A. No, I didn't, whilst that lasted, but when these shells started

15 falling, I went back to get my wife and my two children and my mother, and

16 we went to the nearest cellar. There were only two cellars. That is, we

17 had only two possibilities, this nearer one or the one that was further

18 away, and we went to the nearer one, and so that the whole street went to

19 that cellar, that is in one house.

20 Q. And did any troops come up at that time?

21 A. After that, after some roughly 20 minutes, half an hour, maybe 45

22 minutes, troops in multicoloured uniforms, camouflage uniforms and with

23 their faces painted turned up. In front of the house, they called us to

24 come out, and we did, and they lined us up on the road in front of the

25 house, and they asked if all that lived there were there, and we said

Page 5127

1 yes. But then we could hear some shots a little bit at a distance from

2 us, around the hills behind us, it could be about five or six hundred

3 metres, maybe 400 metres.

4 Q. Right. Very well. But tell us, did these troops take you and the

5 others from the area in any direction?

6 A. Yes. We were there -- we stood there for about 20 or half an hour

7 or maybe an hour, can't give you an exact time, and from there, we went to

8 Inpro. At the Inpro, we spent about one hour and from there we went to

9 Velepromet and that is where we spent the night. We were given bread and

10 milk for the children, some biscuits and suchlike.

11 Q. And did those troops that escorted you there and who -- did they

12 also guard you there?

13 A. No. They there, as we heard after we'd been brought to

14 Velepromet, we heard from the guards, from the neighbours who had come

15 there to see us, those were men in passing, those were people from

16 Bosanski Novi who were never put -- tasked with collecting people up.

17 They simply happened to pass -- to pass down my street and that is how it

18 happened that they cleansed us. Nobody ordered them that or something.

19 Q. Are you talking about these troops, those military that took you

20 along there, they were from Bosanski Novi?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And after that, did they take you anywhere else from Velepromet?

23 A. Yes. The next day, I don't know what time it was, but it was in

24 the morning, and they came -- I mean the police, blue uniforms, active

25 policemen, there were about three of them, they searched us to see if we

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1 had any weapons or something, one by one, on to a bus.

2 Q. Were they town buses for urban transport?

3 A. Yes, blue town buses.

4 Q. And could you tell us the date, roughly?

5 A. That was after the attack on Prijedor, a day or two, 24 hours,

6 that's when it was, after the attack on Prijedor, late May, in May, yes,

7 the 30th.

8 Q. And where did those buses take you then?

9 A. The bus was sent towards the town. We had to keep our heads down,

10 but I know roughly that we were in Prijedor because I commuted every day

11 there, so I knew by the time it took us there and we were to go to

12 Omarska. We didn't know we were to go to Omarska, but somebody said over

13 the Motorola that Omarska was full and that we could not go there, and

14 that is how we arrived in Keraterm.

15 Q. Did these buses enter the Keraterm compound? Did you pass through

16 that entrance gate?

17 A. Yes, we did.

18 Q. And what happened then when you got off the bus?

19 A. When we got off the bus, there were three or four in front of the

20 bus, and to the side, there were also uniformed soldiers. Three were

21 there. And as we got off, they asked for money, for gold, for jewellery.

22 Zoran, that is how I know him, as Zoran, or rather as Zoka, I know -- I

23 know him, he's from Prijedor. I know that he was wont to take money. So

24 that those who were there in front of that hut next to the scales, they

25 came there, got their hands on to them, started to beat them, only so that

Page 5130

1 they would return the money, gold and the rest, and they drove them away

2 and I never saw those people there again.

3 Q. Did I understand you well? Did uniformed men beat other uniformed

4 men?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were they soldiers?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And after that, did you ever see those men in Keraterm again?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And where were you put after you arrived in Keraterm?

11 A. I went to what we called Room 1, and we found there up to five men

12 from Puharska. Kapetanovic, I knew him and some others. But by and large

13 they were from Puharska because they had been brought in the evening.

14 Q. And in Room 2, was there anyone there, the room next to you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And when were these rooms filled, the room that you were in?

17 A. Well, the same day, the next day, and so on, as people brought

18 two, three, five, ten, depending on where people were, at home or around

19 town.

20 Q. And did you spend all your time in Keraterm in Room 1?

21 A. No. I was there for about ten to 15 days. That's it, roughly. I

22 can't say to a day. And then I moved to Room 2.

23 Q. And before you moved to Room 2, were you interrogated by anyone?

24 A. I can't remember whether it was before or after, but I think I

25 went for interrogation from Room 2, but I just can't remember.

Page 5131

1 Q. Who took you for interrogation?

2 A. A guard took us who was there on duty. I can't remember.

3 Q. Was this questioning carried out on the first floor of the

4 Keraterm building?

5 A. Yes, it was.

6 Q. Did you know any of the people who questioned you?

7 A. I knew one of them. He worked in the SUP. I don't know what his

8 function was. He had hair down to here, he had a moustache, wore glasses.

9 I never saw him in uniform. He was always in civilian clothes, and I

10 don't know what his function was over there.

11 Q. Did you know whether he worked in the police before the war?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did anybody beat you during the interrogation?

14 A. No.

15 Q. How much time did you spend in Room 2?

16 A. Well, about 15 days. That was about a month. Whether it was more

17 than a month or not, I don't know whether it took that long. Then I was

18 transferred to number 4.

19 Q. So a month in relation to your arrival to Keraterm, then you were

20 transferred to Room 4?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. I just want to ask you when you -- when I ask my question to you,

23 could you please make a little pause so that it can be translated before

24 you start your answer.

25 A. I apologise.

Page 5132

1 Q. While you were at Keraterm, did you see food being brought to

2 Keraterm?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Could you tell us a little more about that?

5 A. Yes. Food was delivered once a day. A captain would come. He

6 had ranks. He had a camouflage uniform. At that time he was about 50

7 years old. He would come in a military vehicle, and there would be three

8 or four containers of food brought in. It was either brought in a plastic

9 container or a basket. There were plates and spoons.

10 Q. Could you please tell me whether anybody distributed this food and

11 how.

12 A. Yes. There were two women also with this captain. They wore

13 white coats. They would distribute bread and food to us.

14 Q. Were the inmates ever -- did the inmates ever help with bread

15 cutting and so on?

16 A. Yes, they did. In the room, we had -- how shall I put it?

17 Q. Somebody in charge of the room?

18 A. Yes, somebody in charge of the room. So if we needed something,

19 we were supposed to ask him, and then he would convey that over there to

20 the guards or something like that. He would go to cut the bread. It was

21 the three Burza brothers. He was, how shall I say, a kind of chief in the

22 dormitory.

23 Q. Yes. When you received your food, where would you eat it?

24 A. We ate it in front, where the kitchen was. There was a path. We

25 would sit there in front of the dormitories and we would eat. After that,

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1 when we were finished, we would go to wash the plates and spoons so that

2 others could eat from the other dormitories.

3 Q. Why couldn't all of you go out at the same time?

4 A. Because there weren't enough plates and spoons to go around.

5 Q. How much bread were you given, and were you given any?

6 A. Yes. Everybody received two slices of bread.

7 Q. Can you describe what you ate? What was that food like that you

8 received?

9 A. The food was not of great quality, but in the conditions that were

10 prevailing then, it was all right. We weren't at home. We didn't eat

11 like that at home. There was stew, soup, beans, cabbage, sometimes there

12 was meat. Yes, more than on several occasions there was meat in the stew.

13 Q. Was there ever extra food?

14 A. Yes, yes. We would get seconds. There wasn't too much left over,

15 but some did manage to get seconds.

16 Q. And the quantity that you received for that one meal a day, how

17 much was that? How much did you get? Could you please tell us that?

18 A. I don't understand.

19 Q. How much food were you given?

20 A. One ladle. It was about this size, so it was one ladle per plate.

21 I don't know how many grams that was. I can't really say.

22 Q. Was the ladle enough to fill the plate?

23 A. No.

24 Q. What was the order that the food was distributed in?

25 A. There was no specific order. Usually Room 4 would go, then 3,

Page 5135

1 then 2, then Room 1. I don't know exactly, but mainly we would all go and

2 eat that lunch.

3 Q. Does that mean that no room was ever the first one to go; that the

4 order changed?

5 A. Yes, yes, the order changed.

6 Q. Well, please wait for the question to be translated before you

7 continue. What was the situation with water in Keraterm while you were

8 there?

9 A. In the beginning, we went to get water by ourselves -- not by

10 ourselves. Five or six or up to ten people would go to the well, and the

11 well was perhaps four or five hundred metres away. My brother would often

12 go to get the water. And as far as I know, a few others also went. They

13 went with Zigic to the well, and they would bring water in canisters.

14 This was in the beginning because there weren't so many of us, not so many

15 inmates.

16 Q. Was there any other water at Keraterm?

17 A. Yes. After that, this was perhaps for about ten days, then we

18 would go get the water, which was brought in cisterns. There was also a

19 water hydrant. And when there was electricity, the hydrant worked. But

20 the cistern came all the time, sometimes even twice a day.

21 Q. The water from the cistern, what did you do with it?

22 A. We washed the plates, we would drink it, we would wash ourselves.

23 If a person was able to, they would wipe themselves down, they would wash

24 themselves and so on.

25 Q. Did you have any containers to pour the water into?

Page 5136

1 A. Yes, we had canisters of five or ten litres. We had a bottles of

2 1.5 litres or two litres.

3 Q. Did you ever -- before you arrived at Keraterm in 1992, did you

4 ever go to Keraterm before that or had any kind of contact with that

5 facility?

6 A. I worked there, yes, for two months. This was in 1989, 1990. I

7 can't tell you the exact year. I worked there for two years through the

8 employment bureau. They sent me there.

9 Q. Very well. And then when you worked there, did you drink water

10 from the water pipes in the Keraterm facility?

11 A. Yes. This is part of the town water system, so we would drink

12 from a tap or from the hydrant, which worked normally.

13 Q. Thank you. Besides the food which was delivered to Keraterm once

14 a day, was there any opportunity to receive something that was

15 extraordinary?

16 A. Yes; bags would arrive. Women, they would bring food, as much as

17 they were able to.

18 Q. Did you personally receive anything?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Can you tell us from whom, how?

21 A. Well, yes. I received something from my neighbours, from my

22 friends, from my employer, [redacted]

23 [redacted]. He would bring me food, money, cigarettes, and so on.

24 Q. Did your wife ever bring you food?

25 A. Yes. She would come all the time and bring food.

Page 5137

1 Q. Since you were in Rooms 1, 2 and 4, did you see whether other

2 inmates had the opportunity to receive things?

3 A. Yes. Food would come when they would let it through the gate.

4 This would be brought in carts. And when the cart was loaded to full

5 capacity with these food bags, there would be a little note in each bag,

6 and this would then be brought in front of the dormitory number 1 or

7 number 2, and then names would be read out of the people for whom the bags

8 were intended. We were all there together. If we were locked up, one by

9 one of us would go out. If we were outside, then we would stand in a

10 semicircle around there and wait.

11 Q. Did it ever happen that you went to the gate to get the bag?

12 A. Yes, but this was out of the ordinary, when something would be

13 brought by a friend or something like that.

14 Q. You mentioned that your boss brought you food. Can you please

15 tell us how that was, what happened?

16 A. Yes. [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted] So I saw him, I was standing with Kondic. We were

23 standing there, talking. Kondic was a guard. We were friendly. And

24 that's how I saw Mico Karlica.

25 Q. [redacted]

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1 Kondic?

2 A. I went up to him and I said hello, and I asked him if it was

3 possible for me to get to a telephone or if it was possible for him to

4 call my boss, for my boss to bring me food. There was a soldier there in

5 front of the weigh hut, and he told him, "Let this man use the phone." He

6 told him. So I went in and made a phone call. [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]. I don't know, they said, "You're taking food to

13 traitors, to Ustashas." [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 Q. So you did receive that bag with food?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. From somebody who would often come to Keraterm, did you ask them

20 also to bring food for you or something?

21 A. Yes. [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]. When he wasn't, he would bring bread

Page 5140

1 at least, because the women at home couldn't, perhaps, manage to prepare

2 the food, so it was always agreed with him that they would prepare the

3 food the day before so that he could bring it when he brought the cistern

4 in.

5 Q. We'll move on to another topic now. When you arrived, did you

6 notice people who were securing Keraterm, guards? Were there any shifts?

7 How was that?

8 A. There were five or six people there, but they didn't have a set

9 post. They would be at the gate, at the weigh hut, and so on.

10 Q. Did you see those guards most frequently at the weigh hut?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Tell me, do you know how many shifts there were? How were they

13 allocated? How did they operate?

14 A. I'm not sure how the shifts operated, for how long, whether they

15 worked for 24 or so on. Mainly, I saw those people all day. When it was

16 night, I didn't. Whether there were two shifts or three, I can't really

17 say that for sure because I don't know.

18 Q. How were the guards dressed who guarded you?

19 A. They had all kinds of clothes on. They had camouflage uniforms or

20 they would have a top, civilian clothes. Then there were two or three,

21 perhaps, who had blue police clothes.

22 Q. Did you know any of the people that you saw there at Keraterm

23 before the war? Did you see them working as guards?

24 A. I did. I knew Damir Dosen. I knew Rade Gavrilovic. I knew

25 Kondic, also Drasko or Dusko. There were three brothers. I can't

Page 5141

1 remember their names, but their last name was Munjaz. So I knew several

2 more of them, but I didn't know them by name. I just knew them by sight.

3 Q. During your stay at Keraterm, did you find out any of the guards'

4 names?

5 A. I don't understand. Please repeat your question.

6 Q. The thing that I asked you before, there were guards that you

7 knew -- that you saw at Keraterm and that you knew before the war. Now I

8 am asking you, did you, during your stay at Keraterm, find out the names

9 of any other guards from other people?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Can you tell us whose names you learned?

12 A. I heard of Sikirica, then Zigic, Toma Prodan. I can't remember

13 the name. Two or three names I heard, I can't remember them now.

14 Q. You say you knew Kajin from before the war?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you describe to us in more detail how you knew him, what he

17 was like.

18 A. Kajin was always smiling. He was a good man. We knew him. We're

19 about the same age. There's a year's difference between us. He

20 socialised with everybody. He didn't pay any mind to anybody's ethnicity.

21 He is a good man.

22 Q. Can you tell me whether you had any contacts with Kajin while you

23 were at Keraterm?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did he only talk to you, or did he also talk to others? How was

Page 5142

1 that?

2 A. He talked to everybody, to those he knew and to those he didn't

3 know. He would address them. He would say, "When the questioning is

4 over, you're going to go home." He talked to people, made it a bit easier

5 for them with his talking, that everything would be all right and so on.

6 Q. Where did he talk to you; outside or inside the room?

7 A. He talked outside and in the room, Room 2 and number 1 and number

8 4.

9 Q. So that means he would go inside the room to talk to people?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What was your impression of him through his talk or by his

12 behaviour? Did he accept that -- did he agree with the fact that you were

13 there?

14 A. Since I knew him from before the war, I know what he was like as a

15 man. And when I saw him there, he left -- he made the same impression on

16 me, the same as he was before. He said, "I'm not here of my own free

17 will, but because I have to be here. It's not easy for me, either."

18 One day when I was in Room 2, he came inside, sat down. He

19 crossed his legs. He took an automatic rifle and he said, "Here, if you

20 people think that any of this is my fault, you can kill me." And this is

21 true.

22 Q. When you saw him at Keraterm while he was working, did Kajin ever

23 prevent anybody from getting food or from having access to water?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you ever see Kajin beat anybody there?

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Page 5144

1 A. I never saw or heard.

2 Q. Did you ever see him tell anybody else to beat prisoners?

3 A. I never heard him order anyone or anything like that, to do that.

4 Q. Did you see him in any situation when there was a fight or any

5 mistreatment of prisoners? Did you ever see him present there?

6 A. No, I never did.

7 Q. Could you say about him that he helped the people who were

8 detained at the camp?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. At that time, was it dangerous to help Muslims, in view of what

11 you have already told us about your boss? This is why I'm asking you this

12 question.

13 A. Yes. It was dangerous to help Muslims and Croats, because their

14 life would also be in danger, and whoever did that, helped us, was also in

15 danger, and I'm sure that that person was aware of that.

16 Q. The entire time that you were at Keraterm, did you ever hear that

17 Kajin personally called people out or abused them?

18 A. I never heard or saw anything like that. I know what kind of a

19 man he was while he was there at Keraterm. I didn't hear anything like

20 that at Keraterm or after Keraterm, after the war was over. I didn't hear

21 anything bad about him.

22 Q. Did you ever see or hear him sell cigarettes to the inmates or to

23 force them to take that?

24 A. No. If he ever -- I mean, if he had cigarettes or if somebody

25 asked for one, he would voluntarily give him one or a whole pack

Page 5145

1 personally. He would give them his own cigarettes.

2 Q. During your stay in Keraterm, was any medical assistance extended

3 to the detainees?

4 A. Yes. The armless doctor came, I don't know his name exactly, and

5 one or two nurses came. And we were given this powder on the head. And

6 they would take away people who had been wounded or sick, and brought some

7 tablets along. Because I never fell ill, I'm not really familiar with all

8 that, but I saw with my own eyes how they -- this doctor gave this powder

9 for the head, because lice had appeared on our heads, and we shaved those

10 who wanted to.

11 Q. Did you ever hear any detainee say or did you personally see Kajin

12 participate in a game which they used to call rider, horse rider, where a

13 detainee would ride another detainee, and this allegedly happening in

14 front of Room 2 in the presence of detainees who would be outside?

15 A. No. I did not hear anything like that or see, what they said that

16 there was a rider or something. It was Samir Sistek. People used to call

17 him Singer. Before the war, he had horses, and then they called him a cab

18 man, so perhaps they got things confused and that somebody was allegedly

19 riding on somebody's back [redacted]

20 [redacted]. He was with me in number 2 and number 1 and

21 number 4, in the end, before we left. He was with me all the time. If I

22 don't know other people, I surely know my own neighbour, and I'd have

23 seen, I'd have heard.

24 Q. But would Sistek tell you something about if he had any incident

25 with Kajin or if he had ill-treated him?

Page 5146

1 A. Yes, because we communicated in the rooms. We talked.

2 Q. Did anyone beat this Sistek?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who?

5 A. Zigic, and others, three or two, don't know who that was. They

6 had something from before the war, Zigic and Sistek. There were some

7 scores to settle from something that happened at a coffee bar by the rail

8 -- by the bus station, bus terminal, and Samir Sistek beat Zigic. So

9 that when Zigic came, he asked about the cab man, because this one came

10 out and was beaten that day, but he wasn't beaten and he sat with Zigic

11 and drank and went out and so on.

12 Q. Tell us, it is true that you saw Kajin often work with other

13 guards as a guard in Keraterm; is that correct?

14 A. It is.

15 Q. Did you ever hear Kajin give any order whatsoever to anyone there?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And tell me, this man that you mentioned as Sikirica, was he a

18 guard there?

19 A. Sikirica, a guard, yes, he was a guard.

20 Q. And tell me, did you see Kajin ever after the war? After

21 Keraterm, did you meet?

22 A. Yes, we did. We'd meet in the town in passing.

23 Q. Did you have any of your closer relatives detained in Keraterm?

24 A. Yes. Two of my cousins, of my close cousins, yes. We were there

25 all the time.

Page 5147

1 Q. And did your brother tell you about something in relation to

2 Kajin, but did he tell you about that after the war?

3 A. He did, yes. One day, and that was about a year ago -- I can't

4 say exactly, but about a year ago. Yes, that's about it. My cousin was

5 in the Orion, a restaurant at Cerici, went there for a drink. And

6 according to him, he was with Kole in that coffee bar, and Kole told him

7 then that he was on The Hague list. And I was taken by surprise. We both

8 wondered how could that be.

9 And it was only the next day -- where was I, somewhere in the time

10 or was I working? But as I was coming back home, around three or four or

11 five in the afternoon, I found -- that is, I saw Damir Dosen, Kajin, in

12 front of my brother's house, sitting there. And because I -- there is

13 about only 30 or 50 metres between my cousin's house and my house, so I

14 stopped my car, got out, and went to my brother's house, and it was Damir

15 Dosen there. So I said hello to him, and my cousin then says, "Well, we

16 were together with --" I was together -- "This is Kole." And I said, "No,

17 this is not Kole, this is Kajin." "Oh, yes," he said, "that's right. I

18 got that mixed up because Kajin and Kole both begin with a K." So he just

19 got their nicknames mixed up.

20 Q. Was Kole a guard in Keraterm?

21 A. Yes, he was.

22 Q. And to conclude, I'd like to ask you, how long did you stay in

23 Keraterm?

24 A. I was in Keraterm all the time until I went to Trnopolje, and I

25 spent 13 days in Trnopolje. So it was two months in Keraterm, give or

Page 5148

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Page 5149

1 take some time. I don't know exactly. I don't know the dates.

2 Q. And to conclude, let me ask you, since you spent two months in

3 Keraterm that you were in Room 1 and Room 2 and Room 4, were there many

4 detainees in those rooms that you were in?

5 A. Yes, there were.

6 Q. Did you talk about what had happened to you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you personally see or hear that Damir Dosen had participated

9 or done harm to someone -- as a man who had been through that and through

10 that plight, would you have ever come to testify for the -- as a Defence

11 witness for Damir Dosen had you heard anything like that?

12 A. I wouldn't.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

14 questions.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

16 Cross-examination.

17 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, Mr. Londrovic will be dealing with

18 matters for the time being, and my interpreter and I have duties in

19 connection with a case outside the Trial Chamber, if Your Honours don't

20 mind if I withdraw at this stage.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we understand.

22 MR. GREAVES: I'm grateful. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Londrovic.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Londrovic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Witness DN, on behalf of Mr. -- the accused Dusko

Page 5150

1 Sikirica's defence, I shall ask you a few questions; and to speed matters

2 up, will you please give me a very short answer, that is, yes or no.

3 My learned friend Mr. Rodic asked you a question and you answered

4 that that you learnt about Dusko Sikirica in Keraterm and that he was a

5 guard there. Did you ever, during your stay in Keraterm, see Dusko

6 Sikirica kill any detainee?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you, during your stay in Keraterm, hear from other detainees

9 that Dusko Sikirica had killed anyone?

10 A. I didn't hear it or see it.

11 Q. During your stay in Keraterm, did you ever see or hear Dusko

12 Sikirica ill-treat any one detainee?

13 A. No, I did not hear that or see that, nor did I hear about it after

14 the war, after the camp.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness DN.

16 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Londrovic.

18 Sir Ivan? Mr. Ostojic?

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:

21 Q. Witness DN, I represent Dragan Kolundzija.

22 The individual that you identified as Kole, do you know what his

23 name is?

24 A. Could you repeat your question, please? I didn't understand.

25 Q. During the direct examination in the questioning, you identified a

Page 5151

1 guard by the name of Kole, correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And do you know what that -- is that a nickname, Kole?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. Do you know what that individual's name is that goes by the

6 nickname of Kole?

7 A. Kolundzija, that's his last name. And the name, I ...

8 Q. Sir, did you, prior to your detention at Keraterm camp, did you

9 know the individual Kolundzija or Kole?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, during your detention at Keraterm camp from approximately

12 early June 1992 through August of 1992, did you have an occasion to

13 actually see Dragan Kolundzija, or Kole, at Keraterm camp?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell me, sir, during your tenure at Keraterm camp, whether

16 at any time from early June through August of 1992, if you ever personally

17 saw Dragan Kolundzija or Kole beat any other detainees?

18 A. No. I did not see it and I didn't hear it from others. They were

19 really outstanding guys.

20 Q. At any time subsequent to August of 1992, did you hear from any

21 other detainee or any individual that Dragan Kolundzija or Kole was

22 involved in any beating of detainees at Keraterm camp?

23 A. No, never heard about it. And the war is over and you see how

24 many years have already passed, and I still haven't heard anything about

25 it. I don't know why these people are here. They are innocent. Others

Page 5152

1 should come here.

2 Q. Let me ask you this: During the time that you were at Keraterm

3 camp, did you ever see Dragan Kolundzija, Kole, present during a beating

4 of any detainee?

5 A. No. I did not see that and I did not hear it.

6 Q. Did you ever, sir, see Dragan Kolundzija, Kole, encourage a

7 beating of any detainee?

8 A. Could you repeat the question? I didn't understand it.

9 Q. Sir, at any time during your tenure at Keraterm camp, did you see

10 or hear if Dragan Kolundzija encouraged that a beating take place of a

11 detainee?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Sir, at any time during your tenure at Keraterm, did you hear or

14 see Dragan Kolundzija, Kole, approve of a beating of a detainee?

15 A. No. They did not give orders to anyone.

16 Q. Your answer is they didn't give orders, that Dragan Kolundzija did

17 not give orders to beat any detainees, correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Is it also true that Dragan Kolundzija never approved of a killing

20 -- or of a beating, I should say?

21 A. No. He didn't approve anything to anyone.

22 Q. Did you ever see or hear that Dragan Kolundzija showed any

23 pleasure in the fact that a beating may have taken place of a detainee?

24 A. Could you repeat, please? I don't understand.

25 Q. Did Dragan Kolundzija, Kole, ever take pleasure in a beating that

Page 5153

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Page 5154

1 may have occurred on Keraterm camp?

2 A. No. He didn't give signs of any pleasures. Kolundzija was the

3 man, the right man, the man in his right place.

4 Q. What do you mean when you say he was a right man or a man in a

5 right place?

6 A. Well, he was very correct to us. He talked with us. We got

7 food. And he didn't have it easy. And you can see it, you can see it on

8 the man, that he really wasn't happy there, that he was forced to be

9 there.

10 Q. Sir, just --

11 A. Where he was.

12 Q. Just so that I'm clear, is your testimony that Dragan Kolundzija

13 in fact assisted or made the conditions at the camp a little better than

14 what they were; would that be fair?

15 A. Yes. He did his best, as much as he could. He helped, talked,

16 chatted with people, as much as he could.

17 Q. Did Dragan Kolundzija ever allow you particularly to receive any

18 food packages from members of your family, friends or employers that you

19 discussed earlier with Mr. -- my learned friend Mr. Rodic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So despite the fact that you didn't know Dragan Kolundzija prior

22 to your detention at Keraterm, is it true, sir, that Mr. Kolundzija in

23 fact permitted and allowed food to be brought in for you in particular,

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 5155

1 Q. Were you the only detainee that received food at Keraterm from

2 June through August of 1992?

3 A. No, I wasn't the only one. Others received food too. Depends on

4 who of their relatives brought it.

5 Q. And isn't it also true, sir, that Dragan Kolundzija allowed and

6 permitted food or access to food from the outside to other detainees that

7 he hadn't known or didn't know prior to the war, correct? Or prior to

8 Keraterm, June of 1992?

9 A. Yes. It is true about others that he didn't know, the food came

10 for them.

11 Q. So if someone were to suggest to you, sir, that in fact Dragan

12 Kolundzija, Kole, would only help those detainees who he knew prior to the

13 war, would your response be that that wasn't true?

14 A. Yes, that is true. He didn't help those he knew; he helped

15 everybody.

16 Q. Let me ask you a couple questions, sir. We discussed beatings.

17 Now, with respect to mistreatment or ill-treatment of detainees, did you

18 ever personally witness or see Dragan Kolundzija mistreat or ill-treat any

19 detainee at Keraterm from the tenure that you were there, early June

20 through August of 1992?

21 A. No, I didn't, ever --

22 Q. Did you ever --

23 A. -- heard.

24 Q. Did you ever, during your tenure at Keraterm, hear from any

25 detainees that Dragan Kolundzija, Kole, was involved, instigated,

Page 5156

1 encouraged, acquiesced, approved any such mistreatment or ill-treatment of

2 detainees?

3 A. No, never.

4 Q. Did you at any time, sir, subsequent to your departure from

5 Keraterm in August of 1992, up until today's date, hear from any detainees

6 that Dragan Kolundzija, Kole, was involved or encouraged, instigated,

7 acquiesced any mistreatment or ill-treatment of detainees?

8 A. No, I did not hear this. The war ended, and throughout all these

9 years, I never heard this from anyone.

10 Q. Let me ask you similarly, at any time during your tenure at

11 Keraterm, did you witness or see Dragan Kolundzija kill anyone?

12 A. No. I did not see it and I never heard.

13 Q. At any time, sir, did you see or hear that Dragan Kolundzija

14 participated or encouraged a killing of a detainee?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you ever see Dragan Kolundzija, Kole, at any time aid or abet

17 in a killing, beating, or mistreatment of a detainee?

18 A. Could you repeat, please? I didn't understand.

19 Q. At any time, sir, did you ever see Dragan Kolundzija, Kole, aid or

20 abet in a killing, beating, or mistreatment of a detainee?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Sir, having spent late May, early June through approximately

23 August of 1992 at Keraterm, were you able to formulate an opinion about

24 Dragan Kolundzija, Kole, as to what type of person he is?

25 A. Yes --

Page 5157

1 Q. And can you share --

2 A. -- I did.

3 Q. Can you share that with us.

4 A. Kolundzija was a well-poised man, even-tempered man. Whenever he

5 came to talk to us - doesn't matter which room, 1, 2, 3, or 4, because the

6 last one I was in was Room 4 - he always said, "This will be over. You'll

7 be out of here." He boosted our morale a little. And in his posture, in

8 his voice, in his eyes, you could see that the fact that he was there was

9 not of his own will, that he had to be there, that he had been ordered to

10 be a guard.

11 Q. Was he a good man, in your opinion?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was he a fair man, in your opinion?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Subsequent to August of 1992 when you left Keraterm camp and were

16 transferred to Trnopolje, at any time did you have an occasion to, up

17 until today, to meet or see Dragan Kolundzija, Kole?

18 A. No.

19 Q. During your testimony on direct examination by my learned friend,

20 you stated that approximately a year ago, that you ran into your cousin or

21 brother and there was a discussion about Kole, and the next day you

22 learned that in fact that individual that your cousin or brother were

23 talking about was Kajin. Do you remember that testimony?

24 A. I do, yes. And that is true.

25 Q. Did this conversation happen approximately one year ago?

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Page 5159

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And I believe you stated that when your cousin or brother told you

3 that he had met with this individual called Kole, you were, what,

4 surprised or shocked? Tell us what your feeling is when he told you that

5 he'd met him and that this individual told him that Kole was on the list

6 to be indicted at The Hague. What was your reaction?

7 A. I found it hard. I shivered all over because that self-same Kole

8 who is here does not deserve it. Those who should come here are not here.

9 Q. And later you learned that the individual that your cousin was

10 referring to was not in fact Dragan Kolundzija, Kole, but a different

11 individual. Correct?

12 A. Right. I told you that my cousin had been to the restaurant.

13 Q. If you can excuse me, Witness.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I'm ready to start a different area,

15 and I'm not sure, considering the time, if the Court would want me to

16 continue or if you'd like to take a break now.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now, Mr. Ostojic.

18 Witness DN, we're going to adjourn for half an hour, return at

19 11.30. During the adjournment, you're not to discuss your evidence with

20 anybody, including the members of the Defence team.

21 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ostojic, yes.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: May I continue, Your Honour?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

Page 5160

1 MR. OSTOJIC:

2 Q. Witness DN, earlier this morning on your direct examination, you

3 testified that someone was in charge of the various rooms at Keraterm

4 camp, and I believe you mentioned the Burizic [phoen] brothers. Do you

5 remember that testimony?

6 A. Could you please repeat this question and clarify?

7 Q. Earlier this morning, I believe - or at least, according to my

8 notes, during the direct examination by my learned friend Mr. Rodic - you

9 mentioned that the Burizic brothers or some name to that effect -- Burza

10 brothers, thank you, or one of them were in charge of a room at Keraterm

11 camp. Do you remember that testimony?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you say they were in charge of the room, you're talking about

14 one of the four rooms that we've been discussing at Keraterm, correct?

15 A. I'm talking about my room, Room number 4, one of the rooms.

16 Q. All right. With respect to Room number 4, where you were

17 detained, was this individual also a detainee at Keraterm camp?

18 A. Burza?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Burza, yes.

21 Q. Just so that the transcript is clear, was that individual also a

22 detainee at Keraterm camp?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know what the ethnic background of that individual was?

25 A. Muslim.

Page 5161

1 Q. Do you know, sir, if the other rooms at Keraterm camp during the

2 time that you were there, from late May, early June, through August of

3 1992, whether there were other individuals who were, as you put it, in

4 charge of the various rooms there?

5 A. Yes, there were, but I don't know the names.

6 Q. And can you tell us, again - and you may have given us this

7 testimony earlier, I apologise - how long you had been in Room number 4?

8 A. I was about -- I was in Room number 4 for about a month.

9 Q. Let me, if I may -- thank you, sir. If I may now turn to an

10 incident that we've put a date on of approximately July 24th, 1992, and,

11 sir, it was a tragic incident that we refer to as the Room 3 massacre.

12 Are you familiar with that date and that incident?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is it true, sir, that during the Room 3 massacre of July 24th,

15 1992, you were in fact in Room number 4, correct?

16 A. I was.

17 Q. Can you tell us, sir, whether or not you were able to hear or

18 witness anything in relation to the Room 3 massacre?

19 A. We couldn't see, but we did hear.

20 Q. Thank you. That's why I want to separate it. So you were unable

21 to actually witness anything, see anything, but you were able to hear

22 certain things, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Prior to the Room 3 massacre of July 24th, 1992, did you have an

25 opportunity to recognise and hear Dragan Kolundzija's voice?

Page 5162

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, on the evening of July 24th, the Room 3 massacre that we're

3 referring to, did you have an opportunity to hear Dragan Kolundzija say

4 anything on that evening?

5 A. Yes, I had.

6 Q. Can you tell us --

7 A. Those were --

8 Q. Sorry. Can you tell us what it is that you heard and from whom

9 did you hear it?

10 A. I heard directly from Kole, it was his voice. First of all, the

11 detainees in Room 3, it was hot inside. There was a -- it was crowded.

12 It was stifling hot, and they were thirsty. There was commotion, arguing,

13 singing, swearing against Karadzic. There were shots fired in warning.

14 Then Kole came to ask what was the shooting about. They said, "It's

15 terribly noisy in here," and Kole said, "It's enough, people. Calm down.

16 We'll resolve it all tomorrow."

17 Ten, 15 minutes later, it was all silent. Then 20 minutes later

18 the commotion started again in Room 3, a commotion between Rooms 3 and 4.

19 There was only a hall and a bathroom and a toilet between us. You could

20 hear everything.

21 And the second time when the commotion started, one or two shots

22 fired in warning were heard again. And again the same voice, that is,

23 Kole's voice, shouted, "It's you again. You are shooting again,"

24 something to that effect. He said, "Why? Who ordered this?" And then

25 there was shooting and yelling again. He came to calm down the situation

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Page 5164

1 once again and said the problem would be resolved tomorrow.

2 Then again there was silence, just as the first time. Perhaps it

3 lasted shorter or longer than the first time, I couldn't tell. And then

4 there was a commotion inside. They had inside those pallets on which they

5 slept. You could hear the sound of a plank being taken out of the pallet,

6 and you could hear the creaking when the plank was being taken out. We

7 didn't know what it was we were hearing. Then the next day we found out

8 that planks were being taken out of pallets when there was a fight

9 inside. Some of the people wanted to break down the door and others

10 didn't want that done, and there was arguing and commotion in Room 3.

11 They broke a window, and when they broke that window, there was

12 metal sheet around. You couldn't tell exactly what it was you were

13 hearing, but then there were shots later. It lasted for about two or

14 three or five minutes. Even five minutes is too long, I think. There was

15 commotion, moaning, shouting. And after that when it died down, the voice

16 we heard previously was heard again speaking in an even louder voice,

17 swearing, "Fuck your mothers. Stop shooting. Are you insane or what?"

18 That's what it was like. There was quarreling among them. And then one

19 of them started towards Room 4 where we were --

20 Q. Let me --

21 A. -- saying something like, "I'm going to kill them all." Then he

22 cocked his rifle.

23 Q. Who are you talking about, Witness DN?

24 A. I'm talking about Kole.

25 Q. Okay. If I may respectfully just go back to some of the testimony

Page 5165

1 that you gave at this time. You said that some individual said, "Stop

2 shooting." Now, who said, "Stop shooting"?

3 A. It was the same voice just as the previous two times. It was

4 Kole's voice. Because while I was in Room 4, after that shooting, when it

5 stopped -- when Kole said, "Who told you to shoot?" He shouted and

6 yelled, and he argued with the soldiers there. And one of them started

7 towards Room 4, to that dormitory where I was, saying, "I'm going to kill

8 them all." And Kole stood in front of that dormitory and said, "Only over

9 my dead body. You're not going to touch these people. They're innocent

10 people." And he cocked his automatic rifle at this guard or soldier, or

11 whatever you want to call him.

12 Q. Witness DN, were you able to formulate an impression with respect

13 to what Kole said, specifically, "Stop shooting"? Did Dragan Kolundzija,

14 Kole, in fact demand, scream, shout, yell, that the shooting stop with

15 respect to all the shooting vis-a-vis all the rooms? Was that your

16 impression?

17 A. In front of Room 4, Kole was wearing a camouflage uniform, an

18 ordinary uniform, and vest over it made of normal canvas sheets, and

19 that's how we recognised Kole.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: If I could interrupt the witness one minute? Your

21 Honour, I've been informed there might be some problem with the Serbian

22 translation to the witness for my question.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Which question? Which aspect of the answer?

24 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, the entire answer, I think it was

25 non-responsive to the question, or so I'm told. So if the interpreter

Page 5166

1 would be kind enough to read from the transcript the question, and then

2 perhaps have the witness try to answer it again?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic?

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe I'm able to

5 help. It's -- yes, I'm sorry. Your Honours, what it concerns is the part

6 of the question in line 11:47:32. That part was not interpreted.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. In fact, between 11:32 and 11:35? Well,

8 would you then repeat the question?

9 MR. OSTOJIC: I will, thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness DN, you testified earlier just now that Dragan Kolundzija,

11 Kole, stated, "Stop shooting," correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were you able to formulate an impression as to what Dragan

14 Kolundzija was intending when he said, "Stop shooting"?

15 A. He wanted to protect us detainees.

16 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that he wanted to protect and to prevent the

17 shooting that was going on with respect to all of the rooms and all of the

18 detainees?

19 A. Yes. I meant all of us, not only myself. I meant all the

20 detainees, Rooms 1, 2, 3, 4.

21 Q. And any time sir, did you hear Dragan Kolundzija say, "Don't

22 shoot," in any particular room, or is it a fact, sir, that what you heard

23 from Room 4 was that Dragan Kolundzija said, "Stop shooting," and that was

24 in essence for all the rooms, correct?

25 A. I didn't know which room was being shot at, and the bullets

Page 5167

1 entered through our windows as well. I didn't know what room it was all

2 about. And when Kolundzija said, "Stop shooting," it didn't refer to Room

3 1, 2, 3 or 4 in particular. He said to stop shooting at all the rooms.

4 Q. Did Dragan Kolundzija, Kole, ever encourage the shooting in Room

5 number 3?

6 A. No, never.

7 Q. In fact, isn't it true, sir, that Dragan Kolundzija tried his best

8 to prevent the shooting from continuing and tried his best to stop the

9 shooting, correct?

10 A. Yes. He tried, he did his utmost, and he resisted those people

11 who were shooting as much as he could. He argued, quarrelled with them.

12 Q. Did you, sir -- subsequent to the shooting, did you hear or learn

13 from any detainees whether or not Dragan Kolundzija threw his rifle on the

14 floor or on the ground? Did you ever come to know any such facts?

15 A. No. I didn't hear about it, but after that massacre, I never saw

16 Kolundzija there again until the end of my term in Keraterm.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may just have a moment, Your Honour.

18 Thank you, Witness DN, that's all I have.

19 Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

21 Mr. Ryneveld?

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

24 Q. Now, Witness, if I remember your evidence correctly, you were

25 telling Mr. Rodic some details about before the war there were excellent

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Page 5169

1 ethnic relations between all of the, shall we say, the ethnic composition

2 of Prijedor; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. We were all together. We didn't know who was which

4 ethnicity. We socialised. Everything was well until the parties were

5 established.

6 Q. Sure. And I think you probably agree with me, sir, that it was

7 not strange to have friends who were Croats or Muslims or Serbs? That was

8 a commonplace thing?

9 A. It was normal in our community. We socialised very well.

10 Q. Even intermarried; isn't that right?

11 A. Yes. As far as I heard, there were many ethnicities there.

12 Q. And it wouldn't then be surprising, sir, that people would have

13 friends of different ethnicity prior to the breakout of the conflict in

14 1992; isn't that right?

15 A. There was a lot of mixing. There were Romas, there were many

16 ethnicities in Prijedor. We didn't discriminate among ethnicities before

17 the war. We didn't even know who was what.

18 Q. Exactly. And my point, if you listen to my question, sir, is that

19 it was not unusual, then, for Serbs to have Muslim friends and vice

20 versa?

21 A. Yes. Everybody had his friend who was a Serb or a Croat or some

22 other ethnicity.

23 Q. But that kind of changed, didn't it, sir, in 1992? All of a

24 sudden people who didn't discriminate before the war changed?

25 A. Those who were up there in the parties, high up in the party

Page 5170

1 structures, they all made a mess of it. And that's how we came to this

2 ethnic, inter-ethnic turmoil.

3 Q. Sir, isn't it true that neighbour turned on neighbour, friend

4 turned on friend, and Serbs rounded up Muslims and took them to detention

5 camps? Isn't that true? Former friends turned on former friends and

6 former neighbours turned on former neighbours.

7 A. Well, yes, but there still remained friendships which last to this

8 day. But in those times, you didn't dare sometimes help your friends, at

9 least, those people who had friends from before. Some people changed

10 their views, though.

11 Q. Yes. And people who you would least expect it from during the

12 time of this conflict beat their former friends, mistreated their former

13 friends or neighbours. That happened, and you saw it happen, didn't you?

14 A. I didn't see that a former friend beat a former friend

15 specifically, but I heard rumours. There are always rumours, that's the

16 down side.

17 Q. And I take it you don't believe those rumours?

18 A. No, I didn't say that.

19 Q. Sir, this neighbourhood that you lived in, was that more or less a

20 Muslim neighbourhood?

21 A. I don't understand. Could you repeat it, please?

22 Q. Sure. You told us, sir, about the time when you went to get some

23 water from your neighbour's well and the shells fell, and then you and

24 some people went to a cellar, and then you were called out, lined up, and

25 you were taken somewhere. The people -- the area where you lived when

Page 5171

1 that occurred, was that in a largely Muslim-inhabited neighbourhood?

2 A. No, the Muslims were most -- the Muslims were mostly there, but

3 there are also Serbs. But there were more Muslims than Serbs, but it was

4 mixed.

5 Q. And did the Muslims -- I'm sorry, did the Serbs also get called

6 out onto the street and herded away with the rest of your neighbours, your

7 Muslim neighbours?

8 A. No, because there were no Serbs with us.

9 Q. Let me see if I get this straight. You lived in a mixed street.

10 Is that what your evidence was, or did I misunderstand you?

11 A. Yes, but the Serbs on that street where I was, there were not many

12 Serbs there. There were five or six households. And a day or two or

13 three, thereabouts, they were absent from their homes because they were

14 afraid of Muslims and Croats.

15 Q. So do I understand you that the handful of Serb families on your

16 street had left your street in advance of this roundup? Is that what

17 you're telling us?

18 A. That's right. A day or two or three before, they had fled from

19 their houses to their relatives, to where Serbs were a majority somewhere

20 else.

21 Q. Did they get some advance notice of this roundup and decide to

22 leave?

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I think that my learned friend is

Page 5172

1 incorrectly implying in his question the information of Serb families, and

2 the witness also clearly -- the previous question, that those Serbs, since

3 they were a minority in the street, were afraid of Muslims. In his

4 answer, he never associated those Serb families with the impending arrival

5 of the Serb troops who took people from his street.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: With the greatest of respect, Your Honour, this is

8 cross-examination. The purpose of cross-examination is to test the

9 witness. My friend seems to suggest that simply because a witness may

10 have given a different answer in an earlier question, that I was bound by

11 that answer and I'm not allowed to put other alternatives to him.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: I am hoping that the witness will be allowed to

14 answer my questions and that my learned friend will not interrupt me for

15 the purpose of giving the witness a suggested answer. That's improper.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Mr. Ryneveld.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

18 Q. Sir, in your evidence, I think you said - and this is my note -

19 you were taken to some location, I think you said Inpro - I'm not sure if

20 I wrote that correctly - and that you were not guarded. And then you used

21 the phrase, "They cleansed us." Do you remember using that phrase?

22 A. Well, that is what it was called everywhere: cleansing, rounding

23 up. It depends what kind of a word you use. It depends on you what words

24 will you choose, and I chose the word "cleansing."

25 Q. What did you understand that word to mean when you used it? In

Page 5173

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Page 5174

1 other words, could you clarify for us what you meant by "cleansing" when

2 you used it.

3 A. Well, I don't know how to answer it. Could you please explain it

4 in more detail?

5 Q. Sure. Well, allow me, then, to suggest an answer, and if you

6 agree with that, would you tell us so; and if you think something -- it

7 means something else to you, will you clarify it.

8 Do you mean by "cleansing" that they were basically removing the

9 Muslims out of that area and cleansing the Muslims out of there to leave

10 it a purely non -- to leave it a purely Serb neighbourhood? Is that what

11 you mean by "cleansing"?

12 A. Well, it's a word, "cleansing," rounding up. We have many such

13 words. We were herded up. Women and children stay at home, naturally.

14 So that men did not stay at home -- well, some of the elderly ones stayed,

15 even some younger ones stayed mostly, but those able-bodied, they were

16 more or less rounded up.

17 Q. All right, sir, we will move on. Tell me, you indicated, sir,

18 that you were taken to Keraterm, and when you arrived at Keraterm, you

19 were asked for your money and your gold. Were -- was anyone beaten when

20 they got off the bus, or otherwise mistreated?

21 A. I cannot properly remember if somebody from that bus was really

22 beaten, but those who took money or gold away, they were beaten by others,

23 by the -- those that were there, the military.

24 Q. And all of this happened inside of the Keraterm compound; is that

25 correct? Inside the fence structure, inside the gate leading into

Page 5175

1 Keraterm?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And would that be in the vicinity of the weigh hut?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And this was daylight, was it?

6 A. Yes. That was in the morning, 8.00, 9.00, 10.00. I didn't know

7 what time it was. I paid no attention to that.

8 Q. And this is the area where the guards of Keraterm used to hang

9 out, around the weigh hut; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that weigh hut was the office of the camp commander? That's

12 where he -- that was his office, was it?

13 A. I wouldn't know what it was, but, well, guards were there. I

14 don't know if it was -- no, it wasn't an office. It was a duty room,

15 something like that.

16 Q. A duty room, all right. We'll call it a duty room, then. That's

17 where the people who were running the camp, that's the duty room, that's

18 where they used to -- for the telephone, where the lists were kept, where

19 -- where they did their business? That was their place of business, was

20 it not?

21 A. Yes, that's where they were, in front of this -- of that weigh

22 bridge, all the time.

23 Q. And that hut, sir, there was always somebody there, wasn't there?

24 A. Well, I didn't see if there was somebody there all the time, but

25 they were in front of it all the time, so I guess they were also inside,

Page 5176

1 but I can't really confirm it, because, you know, I wasn't anywhere near

2 the hut.

3 Q. And it was the guards, sir, that greeted the bus upon its arrival;

4 is that right?

5 A. That's where the soldiers met us. Now, whether there were guards

6 or what, I don't know.

7 Q. You arrive, you're into the camp, and you see people in uniform

8 who then, I take it, searched you and took your money and your gold; is

9 that right?

10 A. I recognised one of them.

11 Q. And that was Zoran; is that right?

12 A. Yes, Zoka or Zoran, when they were seizing this. And those same

13 men who were there, they approached, they took away those two or three,

14 some five or ten metres away, they -- next to the weigh hut, and there

15 they beat them, they battered them, and then they returned money and

16 gold. But after that, I did not see those men in Keraterm again, and I

17 don't even know who or what they were or anything. I mean, nor those who

18 were on duty there, nor those who were taking that money and gold.

19 Q. Sir, you told us that you spent quite some time in Room 1, for ten

20 or 15 days, and then you moved to Room 2. You do not recall, as I

21 understand my note, when you were interrogated, whether it was before or

22 after you went to Room 2; is that correct?

23 A. Can't say properly, either 1 or 2. There wasn't much difference

24 in the transfer, whether I perhaps spent the night in Room 2 and then I

25 went for interrogation, or whether it was earlier, perhaps a day or two

Page 5177

1 before that, and then I went for interrogation from Room 1. I can't

2 remember it.

3 Q. All right. Just for clarification, before I finish on this point,

4 this Zoran or Zoka or Zoko or whatever, did you know his last name?

5 A. No. That's all I heard, from before the war, that nickname or

6 perhaps his name, I don't know.

7 Q. All right. I have another question. During your stay at

8 Keraterm, at any point did you hear of Zoran Zigic?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And was he a guard at the camp?

11 A. He was there in the beginning when my brother went to fetch

12 water. Well, he must have been a guard since he escorted him when they

13 went to get water.

14 Q. Okay. Now, moving back to the interrogation for a moment, when

15 you went upstairs, I understand that you were taken by a guard; is that

16 correct? One of the guards at Keraterm would come and get you from the

17 room, whichever it was, and then took you upstairs where you were

18 interviewed?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And how do you know it was your turn? Would he call out a name or

21 would he read your name from a list? Or how did that process happen?

22 A. There was a list, and they read out names. We couldn't say which

23 one of us would go or something. So name and last name, "Go for

24 interrogation." Then you go. And then he announces the next one to wait

25 and to be ready.

Page 5178

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Page 5179

1 Q. So not only were you there when your name was called out and you

2 were escorted upstairs, but you were there when other people's names were

3 read out off this list; is that correct? You saw this process before you

4 were called, and perhaps even after you were called?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it was guards, the guards at Keraterm, that read from this

7 list; is that correct?

8 A. They called out for interrogation, but until the end, after that

9 massacre, I don't know if there was -- there were any more interrogations

10 or not. I cannot really say. Whilst I was in Room 1 and 2, there were

11 interrogations.

12 Q. All right. Let's move on to the issue of food, sir. You said

13 that the food would arrive, and women in these white uniforms would arrive

14 with a captain and then the food would be distributed. Is that what I

15 understood your evidence to be?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did I also understand your evidence that since you arrived at the

18 latter part of May, that you were one of the first inmates at the camp?

19 Did I hear you say that there was nobody in Room 2, for example, when you

20 arrived?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And this arrival of food happened right from the start, did it?

23 Like, you arrive one day, and the next day the food started arriving on a

24 regular basis?

25 A. No. It was later, afterwards. Ten or 15 days later, I can't tell

Page 5180

1 you exactly, or perhaps eight days. But it wasn't so in the beginning.

2 In the beginning, we were getting our own food from our homes.

3 Q. So for the first week or so or longer, you didn't get fed, did

4 you?

5 A. We were getting food from home, but not those from the canteen

6 that we ate, because in the beginning, we were very few there.

7 Q. And not everyone was as fortunate as you to have relatives and

8 friends bring food; is that correct?

9 A. In the beginning, food did arrive, except that first day. Because

10 our wives, our parents didn't know where we'd gone, that day we were

11 hungry because there was nobody to bring food to us because they didn't

12 know where we were. They didn't know where we were. But when they found

13 out where we were, then food began to arrive. And there was surpluses,

14 and we gave it to people who had been captured and brought from other

15 places so that they had nobody to bring food for them. But in the

16 beginning, we were getting this food and there were even surpluses.

17 Q. And once the army started to, as you put it, deliver the food via

18 this captain and the two women, was there enough food for everyone?

19 A. As far as I know, basing it on my dormitory, when we went, we

20 would all regularly get a ladleful of food and two slices of bread. At

21 times you could have a second helping. And I know it, again basing it on

22 my dormitory, there would be something left over; who else can have some

23 more or who queues before somebody else, he gets it.

24 Q. So I take it, sir, that your evidence is that while you were at

25 Keraterm, you certainly didn't go hungry?

Page 5181

1 A. Right. Well, there was food. It wasn't good food, we were not at

2 home, but it was food nevertheless. There was potatoes and stew and beans

3 and cabbage and meat, even. That's what the conditions were like. You

4 were not home. You didn't have much to prepare. There wasn't enough

5 money and so on.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I have an objection, if I may.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: Quite frankly, when my learned friend asked the

9 question, the witness responded initially by saying "ne," and the written

10 transcript and the interpretation seems to suggest that "ne" means

11 "right." So I would just ask that we look at that, then we can clarify

12 it by listening to either the video or by playing it back, at your

13 convenience, of course.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: That will be -- we take account of that,

15 Mr. Ostojic.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, yes.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. You were there over two months. Did you -- do you remember how

20 heavy you were when you went in? What was your body weight?

21 A. Well, 72, 3, up to 75. And afterwards, I was -- well, I can't

22 tell you exactly, 60 plus something. I lost not more than 10 kilos.

23 Q. And I understand from your evidence that you, at least, were fed

24 every day; is that right?

25 A. I was getting food through connections. We had one meal there.

Page 5182

1 And those who were getting food through connections, who got it from

2 neighbours or friends, they somehow could bear it a little; and who had

3 nobody of his own or couldn't get it somehow, those had it hard.

4 Q. Then it wouldn't surprise you to hear, sir, that some of your

5 fellow detainees lost up to 40 kilos or more during their period of

6 detention. You would accept that, that that's possible?

7 A. I cannot say whether this is possible or not. As for the

8 kilograms, I can't say. Yes, people had lost weight, but how many kilos,

9 I can't say. I'm not able to really say.

10 Q. Sir, you had a lot of connections, didn't you? You had lots of

11 friends who brought food?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As a matter of fact, one of your friends was Kondic, wasn't he?

14 A. Yes, he is.

15 Q. And he happened to be a guard at Keraterm; isn't that right?

16 A. It is.

17 Q. Whose shift was he on?

18 A. I wouldn't know.

19 Q. You wouldn't know whose shift he was on?

20 A. No. All I know is that he was a guard. Whose shift, that is

21 something I don't know because all sorts of things were mentioned.

22 Q. Well, Kondic was an army friend of yours, wasn't he, when you

23 served in the JNA with him?

24 A. No. It was another Kondic.

25 Q. A different Kondic?

Page 5183

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Page 5184

1 A. No. It was Rade Gavrilovic, it wasn't Kondic. We were friends

2 before the war, like this. Well, not friends, but we would say, "Hello."

3 "Hello."

4 Q. This Rade Gavrilovic, was he a guard at Keraterm, too?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Whose shift was he on?

7 A. I can't say. I mean, I just don't know about those shifts. I saw

8 those people around, but those shifts I can't really specify.

9 Q. And another friend of yours was Damir Dosen, right?

10 A. Damir Dosen before the war. Well, we knew one another well. We

11 were not pals, but we'd meet, we'd say hello. That was it.

12 Q. Now, you talked about after the -- after the food started to get

13 delivered on a regular basis, as you've told us, did the supply of food

14 from outside the camp stop? In other words, did the supply of food from

15 friends and relatives, did that stop?

16 A. No, it did not. They brought it whenever they could, and depends

17 on what they had at home, if they had anything, that is.

18 Q. Why -- did you ask for food to be brought, sir?

19 A. I don't understand. Could you explain it a little bit, please?

20 Q. Sure, I'll be happy to. You were getting food on a daily basis,

21 and there was sometimes even enough for seconds; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, but -- but that is not enough, because it was just one

23 ladleful and two slices of bread and only one meal a day. At home, you'd

24 have three meals a day and perhaps some extra. And we -- we worked hard,

25 so we could eat a lot.

Page 5185

1 Q. So basically, you weren't being fed enough, is that it? And you

2 had to supplement it from outside?

3 A. Yes. We had to have some extra food.

4 Q. Now, you say you don't know anything about shifts or anything like

5 that. Did you used to get locked down at night?

6 A. No. Nobody locked us up in the beginning, in number 1 and number

7 2, until some incidents broke out, and then they made those bars and

8 started to lock us up.

9 Q. Thank you. So at some point during your detention, they used to

10 lock the doors in the evening; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that was it, locking up, not in the beginning, until

12 incidents started.

13 Q. And who would lock you up at night?

14 A. Well, those who guarded us round there, guards.

15 Q. And was there any particular one individual on each shift who

16 would have the keys?

17 A. No. Until late into the night, the door would be open. The

18 twilight, there was no electricity, there was -- well, nothing was said

19 definitely. Any of the guards, I mean, whoever happened to be there, he

20 would lock us up.

21 Q. So until late into the night, you could basically come and go as

22 you pleased, you could go to the washroom, anything like that, without any

23 problems; is that it?

24 A. To the washroom, to the lavatory, it depends. Everything depends

25 on the particular day, how it turns out. Sometimes we would go outside,

Page 5186

1 sometimes we would be inside. When those people who created problems,

2 like Zigic and his ilk would come, we stayed indoors, lots of times, to

3 keep our heads on our shoulders, because Kajin and Kole told us on several

4 occasions, "Please don't court trouble." When people like that come, they

5 said we should go as deep down into our dormitories as we could, to

6 protect ourselves.

7 Q. Sir, when you used to get the food delivered to you, I think you

8 told us that you would line up room by room, as it were, and this is my

9 impression of what you told us, that you would get the plate and the spoon

10 and you'd get served and then you could sit down and eat your meal; is

11 that right?

12 A. When we would take up our place in the line, all of us from one

13 room, we would go take a plate, a spoon each, sometimes we would pour the

14 food ourselves into our plates, one ladle each. There were ladies in

15 white coats working there. Sometimes it was one of those ladies who

16 served the food. Sometimes it was Burza from our dormitory who did that,

17 and also cut the bread. We would then sit outside on the grass, on that

18 podium in front of our dormitory. And when we finished our meal, we would

19 go to the water tank or the hydrant to wash the dishes and bring them

20 back, because there were not enough plates and spoons to go around.

21 Q. I understand you'd have to recycle the dishes. So I take it,

22 then, you'd take your food and you'd sort of sit in the sun or in the

23 shade and sort of have a pleasant little picnic and eat your food; is that

24 it?

25 A. There was no shade, and there was -- there was certainly no

Page 5187

1 picnics. We had it as we had it.

2 Q. You certainly weren't rushed or anything like that? You could

3 take your time to eat your meal?

4 A. No. If it was necessary, sometimes, they said, "Please hurry it

5 up a little so that everybody could have time to have lunch." It wasn't

6 an order or anything. Those ladies who came to the canteen accompanied by

7 the captain, maybe they had instructions to stay there for a half an hour,

8 for an hour, maybe longer, whatever it took to feed everyone, and the

9 plates needed to be brought back and the tables needed to be laid again.

10 Q. So they would more or less politely suggest that you don't take

11 too long because the ladies wanted to go home on time, I take it; is

12 that it?

13 A. I don't know whether they wanted to go home or whether they were

14 supposed to go home. I don't know what their working hours were or

15 whether they had any other obligations. All I can say is what I saw while

16 I was there eating or simply being around. It wasn't an order like, "Eat

17 it in such and such time and if you can't manage, throw it away." It

18 wasn't anything like that.

19 Q. Well, sir, I suggest to you, in fact, that's exactly what

20 happened. People were beaten in the lineups; isn't that true?

21 A. Those who came in, Banovics, Zigic and others, and the company, it

22 was them who did that. Banovic did some mistreatment, not that I saw

23 personally. Those were people who came from outside.

24 Q. Well, sir, isn't it true that the Banovics were guards, regular

25 guards, at Keraterm?

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Page 5189

1 A. I know about Banovic nicknamed Cupo, and I didn't see his brother

2 at all. I don't know his brother. This Banovic was on duty there, but

3 even when he wasn't on duty, he would come in. Actually, he came in as he

4 pleased.

5 Q. Sir, my question is, Banovic was a regular guard on -- at Keraterm

6 while you were there. Yes or no.

7 A. I think yes, he was. But afterwards, I don't know. Later, he

8 wasn't. I don't know for how long he was a guard because everything that

9 went on and -- where they stood and hung out was around the weigh hut, and

10 I was standing just outside when queueing or when in lineups. I couldn't

11 determine who was there.

12 Q. All right. But, sir, Banovic was a guard on Kajin's shift, wasn't

13 he?

14 A. I don't know that.

15 Q. Thank you. While I'm on the topic, wasn't it Kajin who had the

16 keys on his shift and would lock you down at night?

17 A. I don't know that he did the locking. It could have been him. It

18 could have been any of the others who were there, because the bars are

19 slightly deeper inside in Room 4, and behind the wall where I was

20 sleeping, I couldn't see. It could have been anybody who came in and

21 locked up. I wouldn't have seen that. But when there was one or two of

22 them there, they did lock up. It was never specified who was to --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I don't

25 think the interpreter understood what the witness was talking about. It

Page 5190

1 says here, "When there was one or two of them, they locked us up," whereas

2 the witness meant [as interpreted] to say that there were Rooms 1 and 2

3 which were being locked up. I think the interpreter misunderstood the

4 witness's meaning.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for the clarification, Mr. Petrovic.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect, I don't mind a correction about an

7 actual translation defect, but I don't appreciate counsel telling us what

8 the witness intended to say, if that's the distinction that's being made.

9 I'd rather just have an interpretation of what he actually said.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought he was saying that is what the witness

11 said.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh, I'm sorry, I thought he said "intended to say."

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are you saying, Mr. Petrovic?

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me, it

15 is completely inappropriate to claim that I am correcting what the witness

16 meant to say. I intervened to say that this, what I just said, was the

17 essence of what he said in the Serbo-Croat language. And when the

18 interpreters go through this part again or hear the tape again, it will be

19 completely clear that the witness was talking about Rooms 1 and 2 and not

20 about one or two people. And what he said in the B/C/S language was what

21 I just explained, and that is the essence of my interjection. There is

22 absolutely no intention to put any words in the witness's mouth, and the

23 Prosecution has every means of verifying the veracity of my words. My

24 intervention is only aimed at clarifying.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think that is a misunderstanding because the

Page 5191

1 transcript actually had you using the word "intend." But we now have it

2 clarified and we can proceed.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Absolutely. And I'm not suggesting at all. I was

4 reacting to the words, "what the witness intended to say," so I'll move

5 on. Thank you. I forget where I was. Excuse me one moment.

6 Q. Was it Kole who locked you down at night? Did he have the keys on

7 his shift?

8 A. I cannot say that with any certainty whether he had keys or not.

9 When I was in Room 4, as I explained a moment ago, I couldn't see anyone

10 who came in to lock up. I couldn't see any of the guards, the soldiers

11 there, because where I was sleeping, the door was behind me and I was

12 inside. It was only the other -- the others who were in the room placed

13 differently who could see the person coming to lock up.

14 Q. Sir, is it safe to say that you didn't suffer particularly much

15 during your stay at Keraterm? Is that the gist of your evidence? You had

16 lots to eat. You didn't have any water shortage.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, just a few words.

20 I didn't really react when the Prosecutor mentioned the picnics, but I

21 have to react now. You have in front of you a man who spent two months in

22 Keraterm, and cynicism with regard to such a victim is inappropriate. We

23 have in front of us victims. And we did the same when the Prosecution's

24 witnesses were on the stand.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why are you suggesting the question is

Page 5192

1 inappropriate? Are you suggesting there was some cynicism?

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it seems to me that

3 when speaking to a man who spent two months at Keraterm, it is insulting

4 to ask him about any picnics at Keraterm. I think it is an insult to use

5 the word "picnic" about anything that happened in Keraterm. And I think

6 this is the treatment this witness deserves as well as any other victim

7 whom we had in front of us here.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Witnesses are to be treated with dignity,

9 but I didn't appreciate that Mr. Ryneveld was doing otherwise. The

10 reference to picnics, I think, came earlier.

11 Proceed on, Mr. Ryneveld.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

13 Q. Do I understand the gist of your evidence, sir, is that you

14 particularly didn't suffer that much while you were in Keraterm? You had

15 lots to eat; you had food. You weren't personally beaten, were you?

16 A. I didn't have too much to eat. I had as much as I had. It was

17 enough for me, compared to others who didn't have anyone, any kin who

18 would bring them food, because those people in Trnopolje who were from

19 Kozarac had no one to bring them food. Since I was from Prijedor itself,

20 we had more opportunity to get food, if you can understand that.

21 Q. I certainly do. Sir, you've told us about Kajin coming and

22 speaking to you and others assembled there. On those occasions when he

23 would come to speak or address you, did you ever get the impression that

24 he had been drinking? And by drinking, I mean alcoholic beverages to the

25 point that he was under the influence.

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Page 5194

1 A. No, I never saw that man drunk, and I never heard about anything

2 like that, but even now, everyone has a beer or two. It's normal around

3 where we live to have a beer or two. I never saw him drunk or anything.

4 Q. You never got the impression, when he was addressing you or your

5 other fellow detainees, that he was under the influence; is that what

6 you're telling us?

7 A. I never saw him and I never heard about him being drunk or

8 mistreating anyone. When we saw that man, we were glad to talk to him.

9 He was a man who always had a smile on his face.

10 Q. Sir, during your stay at Keraterm, did you see any beatings?

11 A. Yes. Those were individuals, Zigic, then what's his name?

12 Banovic -- the Banovics, and there are others. I can't remember. I

13 can't -- I can't remember their names, or nicknames.

14 Q. People were beaten on a regular basis, weren't they, sir?

15 A. No. I didn't say that.

16 Q. People died as a result of these beatings?

17 A. That happened, but not always.

18 Q. People were starving?

19 A. Well, those who had no one to bring them food maybe went hungry,

20 but there was one meal. In my understanding, that's enough to survive.

21 Q. Hygiene conditions were terrible, weren't they? There was faeces

22 all over the toilet? You'd have to wade through the excrement to get

23 there?

24 A. I personally didn't go through that. If something like what you

25 are saying in any of the dormitories, I wasn't in those dormitories.

Page 5195

1 While I was in Rooms number 1 and 2, and number 4, I used the outside --

2 the outdoor lavatory normally, and what you are describing may have

3 occurred in other dormitories, perhaps, but I didn't see it.

4 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that people were beaten on all shifts.

5 Isn't that true?

6 A. I can't say which shift belonged to who, but those people who came

7 in drunk, I didn't look which of the guards was around. Whether it was

8 one or the other, I couldn't determine. I had my own problems. I was

9 thinking about my home, my own wife and children. I wasn't thinking about

10 those people who were around.

11 Q. Sir, returning to hygiene, people had lice? It was so dirty that

12 people couldn't clean themselves properly?

13 A. That was the case a little at the beginning, untidiness. In any

14 case, there was enough water to drink, to wash the dishes, to wash your

15 face. There was water and there were baths, there was washing when -- by

16 the hydrant, we would wear trunks, T-shirts, sports clothes. It depends.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: May I move very -- I'm conscious of the time. I

18 need to move into private session for about three or four questions, if I

19 may, at this point.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much longer will you be, because --

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Five minutes.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Five minutes. And Mr. Rodic, you will be

16 re-examining for how long? I'm trying to see whether we can conclude the

17 testimony of this witness in, say, ten minutes, and I would then -- I

18 would have to ask the consideration of the interpreters.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I also believe that I

20 wouldn't take more than five to ten minutes at the outside. Perhaps five

21 minutes.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, then, I would kindly ask the interpreters

23 to bear with us.

24 Mr. Ryneveld.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

Page 5200

1 Q. Sir, I'm going to move along very quickly. When counsel for

2 Sikirica was asking you questions, he suggested to you that Sikirica was a

3 guard. Did you know whether Sikirica was a guard?

4 A. Yes, but it was only later that I saw that man. He wasn't there

5 in the beginning.

6 Q. I suggest to you that he was a camp commander at the weigh hut.

7 Isn't that true?

8 A. No, I don't know if he was the camp commander. I did not hear

9 that or see that.

10 Q. Do you see that man that you refer to as Sikirica in the Court

11 today?

12 A. That man? I didn't know that man before the war, and while I was

13 in Keraterm I never had a good look at that man. I don't really know much

14 about this man. What I know is that I never saw that man do any harm, but

15 now whether he is here, I can't -- I mean, faces change because it was a

16 long time ago.

17 Q. Well, sir, if you don't know what he looks like, is that what

18 you're telling me, you don't know what Sikirica looks like? Is that

19 right?

20 A. I can't turn the film back. What was he like? Dark, medium

21 height, had a blue uniform. I didn't really look much at those guards. I

22 don't know what to say about those men.

23 Q. Back in Keraterm, would you be able to put a face to a name?

24 A. I don't understand.

25 Q. Well, sir, my question is simply this: If you didn't know what

Page 5201

1 Sikirica looked like, how could you tell that you never saw him do any

2 harm?

3 A. Well, I was there in Keraterm. I didn't much look around, but a

4 neighbour who was there with me, he went to school with him, and that's

5 how I heard it from him, Sikirica. But there were all sorts of rumours

6 going around Keraterm, that he was a shift leader, that he was a

7 commander, that he was this and that. There was all sorts of talk there.

8 I know that he was there as a guard, but all sorts of stories went around.

9 People got their fingers into all sorts of things. And I didn't really

10 look much. If I had a contact, then I --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... Please

12 proceed, Mr. Ryneveld.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

14 Q. You were there when the men from Brdo were put in Room 3?

15 A. Yes, number 4, in Room 4.

16 Q. They were put in Room 4? I'm asking --

17 A. No, no, no. I was in Room 4. I was in Room 4.

18 Q. And they were put next door to you in Room 3 just before the

19 massacre, a few days before the massacre; is that right?

20 A. They were put in number 3, yes.

21 Q. They were treated --

22 A. One day, one day, two, three days, that's --

23 Q. They were treated differently than the rest of the detainees?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, I've been consulting, and we think

Page 5202

1 it is not fair to the interpreters. We are going to take the break.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: And we'll resume at 2.30.

4 Witness DN, we are going to adjourn now. During the adjournment,

5 you are not to discuss the evidence with anybody, including the members of

6 the Defence.

7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.08 p.m.

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Page 5204

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I will try to wrap this up

4 fairly quickly. I just have a few more questions of this witness.

5 Q. Witness, when Mr. Kolundzija's counsel was asking you questions,

6 you were asked a question that I would ask you to clarify, if you could,

7 for us. You were asked something about whether Mr. Kolundzija was

8 involved in aiding and abetting. I think you gave a response to that.

9 What do you understand the term "aiding and abetting" to mean when you

10 answered the question? Do you know what that expression means?

11 A. I don't understand. To support whom?

12 Q. Do you recall being asked by counsel for Kolundzija whether or not

13 you ever saw Mr. Kolundzija involved in aiding and abetting others in the

14 commission of offences?

15 A. No, I didn't see that or hear.

16 Q. Yes. I understand that was your answer. What I'm asking you now

17 is, what do you understand that expression "aiding and abetting" to mean?

18 Do you understand what that means?

19 A. Well, it's something bad.

20 Q. Okay. Moving on, if I may, please. I believe you mentioned that

21 during the night of the Room 3 massacre, you explained to us there was

22 about a ten-minute period and then a 20-minute period of commotion, and

23 then you said you heard some shots fired, and I think you added the words

24 "in warning." How do you know those shots were fired in warning?

25 A. Well, we just knew it because there were warnings to keep silence,

Page 5205

1 to calm down.

2 Q. In actual fact, sir, all you can really tell us is you heard shots

3 fired; isn't that true?

4 A. We heard shots, but those who were outside, those who fired, those

5 who fired the shots, they were saying, "Quiet. Silence." Perhaps I did

6 not say that, but that's how it was.

7 Q. Now, you said that after -- this cycle repeated itself, and at one

8 point you say that there were shots fired again, and then they were

9 moaning and shouting, and at one point you said that you saw or heard

10 someone coming to Room 4, and you could hear them cocking their pistol; do

11 you remember that? Or cocking their rifle, words to that effect. This is

12 my note, so it may be imperfectly written down.

13 Do you remember talking to us about hearing someone coming towards

14 Room 4 and cocking their rifle or pistol or something?

15 A. Yes, that's right. Not a pistol. One could hear an automatic

16 rifle, a loud sound when it's cocked.

17 Q. All right. An automatic rifle, thank you. I'm corrected. And I

18 believe you also heard the words to the effect that, "I'm going to kill

19 them all." Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And being an occupant of Room 4, did you think that that meant

22 that you and your companions in Room 4 were about to be killed?

23 A. Well, it covered everybody, because he stated he'd kill everybody,

24 and it was happening in Rooms 3 and 4.

25 Q. And this voice that you heard, that you ascribe to Kole --

Page 5206

1 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I have to object. I don't think, with

2 all due respect to my learned friend, that he's properly -- I think he's

3 mischaracterising the evidence, number one. I think it's unfair of him

4 now to state that, in his prior answer, when he said, "he," that he's

5 actually applying that to mean Kole. Counsel hasn't asked him - and he

6 knows quite clearly from the evidence given earlier today that it was not

7 Kole who said those words that he's talking about now but in fact Kole

8 said, "Stop shooting." So it's unfair for counsel now to try to

9 mischaracterise and try to trick this witness, which I truly believe is

10 occurring here.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't believe there is any effort on any -- on

13 the part of any counsel here to trick, either on the part of the

14 Prosecution or the Defence, so let us not follow that route. I think we

15 can resolve the problem without getting into that kind of allegation.

16 Mr. Ryneveld --

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. I was interrupted --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you need to clarify the who said --

19 MR. RYNEVELD: I will, Your Honour. I was interrupted,

20 unfortunately. I was about to give the words that the witness used that

21 he ascribed to Kole. I am not for a moment suggesting that the words that

22 he used, "I'm going to kill them all," was in any way related to Kole, and

23 that was never the intention. And I was about to say the words that were

24 ascribed to Kole when my friend got up to object. So with the greatest of

25 respect, I think my friend interjected too soon.

Page 5207

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, let us continue. It's a very

2 important part of the case and so we understand the sensitivities.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

4 Q. I will go back over this area, sir, to be absolutely clear. Some

5 unknown person, as I understand it, who cocked an automatic rifle, was

6 overheard by you while in Room 4 to say, "I'm going to kill them all"; is

7 that correct? Just so that we are clear, that not being Kole.

8 A. No. I will deny that. It was somebody else, not Kole, who cocked

9 the automatic rifle.

10 Q. And it was somebody else other than Kole who accompanied that with

11 the words, "I'm going to kill them all"; is that correct?

12 A. Kole did not say that he'd kill us all. Kole cocked the rifle

13 when that man said that he'd kill us all. He was standing in front of

14 dormitory number 4 because that one had headed towards dormitory 4,

15 evidently to kill us. And he stood in front of him and cocked the rifle.

16 "You can kill these people only over my dead body." And I stand by what

17 I'm saying. That is the truth.

18 Q. Sir, I didn't for a moment suggest that Kole used the words that

19 he was going to kill them all. I'm saying there was someone else who said

20 that, and then Kole, according to you, used words to the effect of, "Over

21 my dead body," and I think you added in the first time, "These are

22 innocent people," or words to that effect. Isn't that what you told us?

23 A. Yes. I confirm that the people here are innocent.

24 Q. Now, is it your evidence, just so that we are clear, that Kole was

25 also in front of Room 4 when he used the words that you've just told us

Page 5208

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Page 5209

1 about?

2 A. Yes. Because I know Kole's voice, as he chatted with us,

3 befriended us. We spent there two months or more, I don't know exactly

4 how long, so that I knew very well those voices. We knew which voice

5 belonged to whom.

6 Q. So at the time you heard Kole's voice, he was in front of Room 4;

7 is that correct?

8 A. It is.

9 Q. Now, Room 4 is some distance from Rooms 1 and 2, is it?

10 A. It is, yes.

11 Q. Do you feel, sir, that you would have been able to hear what Kole

12 may have said if he was standing, for example, in front of Rooms 1 and 2,

13 or are you able to say?

14 A. Could you please elaborate on that question? I don't understand.

15 Q. Okay. Your evidence is that when you heard Kole's voice, you

16 believe that he was standing in front of Room 4, right? We've established

17 that.

18 A. Yes. He was standing in front of number 4 when the shooting

19 happened, when that man started off to kill us all.

20 Q. Right. You also agree with me - and this is pretty

21 straightforward stuff, sir - that Room 4 is some distance away from where

22 Rooms 1 and 2 were; is that right? It's down and then there's a little

23 indentation and then Rooms 1 and 2 were further away. They're some

24 distance, a number of metres?

25 A. They are at a distance, but what happened in Rooms 3 and 4, they

Page 5210

1 were there next to one another, just like 1 and 2 were adjacent.

2 Q. That's fine, Witness, I understand that. I understand that. My

3 next question, and listen to it, if you would, please: Do you believe

4 that you would have been able to hear Mr. Kolundzija say anything if he

5 had been standing in front of Rooms 1 and 2 in light of all the noise and

6 commotion that was going on that night?

7 A. When this commotion happened, when the gunfire started or when

8 there was a warning and when somebody said, "Silence," it was really

9 silent. When the shooting was over, all one could hear were cries of pain

10 here and there. And his voice was very audible because our windows were

11 open, and they were oblong, and on the door there was nothing but bars;

12 and it was night-time, so the sound carries very well.

13 Q. Let me approach it this way, sir: I'd like you to listen to my

14 question and tell me whether you remember hearing words to this effect.

15 Do you recall Kole, within your hearing, saying anything to the effect of,

16 "Don't shoot at Rooms 1 and 2"? Do you remember hearing that?

17 A. What I remember is that he said, "Don't shoot." He did not

18 mention Rooms 1, 2, 3, or 4. He meant everything.

19 Q. Do you recall hearing him say, "These people have already been

20 interrogated"?

21 A. No, I don't remember that. I did not say that, and I don't know

22 it.

23 Q. Thank you, Witness.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you Mr. Ryneveld.

Page 5211

1 Sir Ivan.

2 MR. LAWRENCE: Perhaps I might be permitted to point out --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Sir Ivan, please.

4 MR. LAWRENCE: Perhaps I might be permitted to point out that that

5 is just two of the many things that the Prosecution witnesses said, and

6 the other things haven't been put to this witness, either.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's a matter for the Prosecutor to determine

8 what aspects of his case he wishes to put to the witness.

9 Mr. Rodic, any re-examination?

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, very briefly.

11 Re-examined by Mr. Rodic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, did your brother, who was with you in

13 Keraterm and who described to you that post-war event, that when he sat

14 down with Kole, did that brother of yours know Kajin before the war or

15 during Keraterm? Did he know what he looked like?

16 A. No. I was the only one who knew.

17 Q. And how did then Kajin and your brother happen to sit together in

18 a restaurant and then the next day at his home?

19 A. Well, that night when they were there and my brother said that

20 he'd been with Kole and that he was on The Hague list, he was surprised,

21 and I was surprised, too. And it was only the next day, whether it was

22 3.00, 4.00, 5.00, I arrived from somewhere, whether I'd worked somewhere

23 or where I'd been --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, we heard this being led in-chief. I

Page 5212

1 did not cross-examine on it. It's within your discretion, but again, I

2 fail to see how this line of questioning arises out of anything I asked.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, it's quite true that counsel did not

4 raise any of these issues in relation to the brother in cross-examination,

5 so it does not arise. And this is not a situation --

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is so, Your Honour, that the

7 Prosecutor did not ask about this, but it was Mr. Kolundzija's counsel who

8 asked those questions during their cross-examination.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't recall, but if you say so, then very

10 well.

11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I believe my learned friends will

12 confirm that they did indeed ask that.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: We do respectfully, Your Honour.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't know. I withdraw my objection.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Rodic, yes.

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. Can you explain it to me, how did your brother happen to find

18 himself together with Kajin in the restaurant that night and the next

19 day? You say that you found your brother and Kajin sitting in your

20 brother's house and about the preceding night. Then your brother had

21 notified you that it was Kole by mistake.

22 A. Yes, because that restaurant in Cerici is well-frequented, and my

23 brother works with a tractor and he's always on the move and he drops by

24 for a drink there. So that night there must have been some music because

25 it was -- it's on on three nights; Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And

Page 5213

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Page 5214

1 that's how he found Kajin -- or, rather, he said it was Kole, and the next

2 day, when I came at 3.00, 4.00 or 5.00 - whether I'd worked or been

3 somewhere, I can't really say - and then when I arrived there, I found

4 Kajin sitting outside on a bench, on that ordinary wooden bench, sitting

5 there and talking with my brother. So I went home. I took my car, I

6 returned to my brother's house, I said hello to Kajin --

7 Q. Yes, you've already told us that. My only question was, if you

8 could explain it specifically, whether your brother, who on two occasions

9 sat down with Kajin, did he know Kajin from Keraterm as a face, as a

10 person?

11 A. Yes, yeah.

12 Q. Right. Thank you. When you mentioned a man called Zoka when you

13 arrived in Keraterm, was it a man named Zigic or somebody else?

14 A. No. It was another man.

15 Q. Man whom you often saw in Keraterm walk around with a dog,

16 remember mentioning that?

17 A. Yes, I did, when he hit my brother.

18 Q. Does the nickname Faca ring a bell?

19 A. Yes. They called him Faca, because he was -- he was the one who

20 said, "Where are you, Faca?"

21 Q. And finally, during your stay in Keraterm, during those two

22 months, you had occasion to watch guards; is that true?

23 A. It is.

24 Q. Did you happen to be in their vicinity or did a number of guards

25 were in your vicinity?

Page 5215

1 A. Well, they came up to us, they talked with us, mostly. Mostly

2 they stood in front of the weigh hut, but if you had to ask something, you

3 would call out to them, if you -- whether one you know or somebody you

4 don't, to come to you.

5 Q. And did you ever have an opportunity to hear any of those guards

6 issue any orders at any time?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And did you ever have an opportunity to see any of those guards

9 address another guard as his superior, as his boss or --

10 A. No, it was -- they just stood and talked. I did not see that or

11 hear that.

12 Q. Did you ever see or hear Kajin order anyone anything?

13 A. No, I did not hear it, ever.

14 Q. Or that somebody would address him as his superior?

15 A. No, never, nobody. I did not hear anyone issue any commands.

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I do not

17 have any further questions.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

19 Witness DN, that concludes your testimony. You are released.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the next witness for the

23 Defence is again a Muslim, again a man who spent a part of that summer,

24 that year, in Keraterm, and Omarska and Trnopolje, who, too, lives in the

25 area of Prijedor now and who has also asked for protective measures, that

Page 5216

1 is, the face distortion and a pseudonym. And I believe that for this

2 reason, his request is justified.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: The application is granted.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Pseudonym for the witness is Witness DO.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 WITNESS: WITNESS DO

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we go into private

14 session for a moment?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 5217

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9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] We can now move back into open

23 session.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, open session.

25 [Open session]

Page 5218

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Page 5219

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Before the war, in the place where you resided, what were the

3 inter-ethnic relations?

4 A. They were good.

5 Q. Towards the end of April, did something specific change the

6 situation in the Prijedor municipality?

7 A. End of April? On the 30th of April, I was driving on the

8 Ljubija-Prijedor line, and travelling on that route I saw many posters of

9 the SDS, the SDA, the HDZ. I continued working until the 22nd of May.

10 Q. Are you aware that on the 30th of April, the Serbs on the

11 territory of the Prijedor municipality took over power?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And about what you said about working until the 22nd of May, 1992,

14 what caused you to stop working then?

15 A. I got a mobilisation summons, a call-up, which I didn't want to

16 respond to. The military police came --

17 Q. Thank you, we will come back to that later.

18 In the company which employed you, were there any more Muslims?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did they continue working in your company until that 22nd of May?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you give us some names of such people from your company?

23 A. Hamdija Alisevic, Cosovic Cazim, Jasminka, Fikric Zahida.

24 Q. Thank you. On that day when you stopped working, did anything

25 happen, like an incident on the Prijedor municipality territory?

Page 5220

1 A. No.

2 Q. In the last days of the month of May, on which route did you work?

3 A. [redacted].

4 Q. Could you tell us the distance from Ljubija to Prijedor in

5 kilometres?

6 A. Twelve kilometres.

7 Q. That road which you took, does it go through Hambarine?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Moving along that road, did you perhaps see a checkpoint at

10 Hambarine?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us who was manning that checkpoint and what you saw

13 there? Could you elaborate?

14 A. It was just outside Hambarine in the field. It was manned by the

15 Muslims. There was the number 53 and there were three men.

16 Q. Did I understand you correctly, there were three men there at the

17 checkpoint?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were those persons uniformed?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When you say there was number 53, do you mean the old type of

22 light machine-gun?

23 A. Yes.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, will the counsel and witness

25 please make pauses.

Page 5221

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. On that road, were there any other checkpoints?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please tell us -- could you describe that?

5 A. I can. If you know the Sana river and across the Sana river

6 bridge by the near Prijedor Hotel, there was a checkpoint controlled by

7 the Serbs. They were also armed.

8 Q. The people at that checkpoint, were they wearing uniforms?

9 A. Yes. They were wearing police uniforms, uniforms of the

10 active-duty policemen.

11 Q. After the Serbs takeover on the 30th of April until the 22nd of

12 May, could you briefly describe the situation in Ljubija during those 20

13 days of May? What was it like in Ljubija? Was there a pronounced

14 division in among the people? Were there any incidents?

15 A. I could say briefly. There was a tavern called the Little

16 Paradise across the road, was held by Ivo Begic who was the one who

17 established the HDZ party. There was a Kemo Alic who had a tavern on the

18 piazza called Bijelouska. He belonged to the SDA. In Prijedor, there was

19 also the SDS party. And naturally, people started to form small groups,

20 and people kept saying, "There will be no war. There will be no war."

21 But if you drove or walked around in Ljubija you would see posters from

22 various parties glued all over the place. It was -- all kinds of people

23 came in that tavern.

24 Q. You said you refused the mobilisation call-up and then military

25 police came to see you. Could you tell us more about that?

Page 5222

1 A. Yes, I can. I had my own wartime assignment at the local commune

2 of Gornje Ljubija, near a school building, a forestry school. I got this

3 mobilisation call-up, as I said, but since I didn't respond, the military

4 police came and took me into custody and took me into the barracks.

5 Q. There at the barracks, did you talk to anyone? Were you

6 interviewed?

7 A. There was a major, I don't know his name, but I know the person

8 because I was a conductor and I know that he had his own tavern. He was a

9 reserve major, not an active-duty one. He was a tall man who told me that

10 I was a deserter, that I was dodging my duty, and that I have to go to

11 prison.

12 Q. Did you explain to him why you didn't want to respond to the

13 mobilisation?

14 A. Yes. I told him I didn't want to use a rifle against my own

15 people.

16 Q. After that interview with him, is it true that you ended up in

17 prison?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In that detention place within the barracks, were there other

20 ethnicities as well?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who?

23 A. There was [redacted]. There was [redacted]

24 [redacted]; who was also a Muslim but he was there as well;

25 there was [redacted]

Page 5223

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Page 5224

1 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that in that military detention

2 unit, there were Muslims, Croats, Serbs, all of them having refused their

3 mobilisation call-ups?

4 A. [No interpretation]

5 Q. Could you tell me, until what time did you stay in that detention

6 and what happened after that?

7 A. I was kept there until the 10th of June 1992. They sent us to

8 Keraterm.

9 Q. I apologise, but coming back to my last question, your answer was

10 not entered into the -- on record. I asked you: Would you agree with me

11 if I said that in that military detention unit at the barracks, Serbs,

12 Muslims and Croats were locked up together, having refused their

13 mobilisation call-ups?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Is it true that from that barracks, that detention

16 unit, you were transferred to Keraterm on the 10th of June?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you tell us who it was that escorted you to Keraterm?

19 A. The military police, in a small van, white, blue, with about 15

20 places inside.

21 Q. Were there any more people in that van, apart from you?

22 A. There was the driver, us, the military police.

23 Q. Were all the detainees from the military detention unit in that

24 minivan?

25 A. No, just those who were labelled as deserters.

Page 5225

1 Q. How many of you were there in the minivan, approximately?

2 A. Thirteen.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's request, will counsel please make

4 a pause.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, the interpreters are asking that you

6 observe a pause, and the witness, too, observe a pause after the question,

7 to allow for the translation.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. The military policemen, did they turn you over to somebody at

10 Keraterm? If so, could you tell us to whom and where?

11 A. Yes. They brought us there, up to the so-called weigh hut, and

12 that's where they turned us over to the civilian police. It was there

13 that they took down our personal details, and sent us to dormitory

14 number 2.

15 Q. The military policemen, were they present while your personal

16 details were taken down by the civilian police?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After taking down your details, after the taking down of your

19 details, you were sent to Room number 2; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you see any people outside that room or in the room?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How many people were there, approximately?

24 A. Outside, there were approximately 23 persons. Outside, I mean.

25 Q. At that time, was Room number 1 filled to capacity?

Page 5226

1 A. Yes. There was quite a large number of people inside.

2 Q. Just for the record, is it true -- I withdraw this question. Your

3 answer wasn't recorded. I asked how many people you saw outside Room

4 number 2 when you approached.

5 A. You mean outside and inside?

6 Q. Outside.

7 A. If you mean Room number 2, then there were people only outside.

8 Q. Within the compound of the Keraterm, did you meet anyone you knew

9 that morning when you were brought in?

10 A. You mean detainees?

11 Q. I mean guards.

12 A. Guards. We were told later to go into Room 2. We found pallets

13 on which we could sleep, and perhaps about an hour later Kajin came in and

14 said, "All the new arrivals, please come outside."

15 Q. So you who were newly arrived to that room, did you then come

16 outside?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What did Kajin tell you on that occasion?

19 A. He transferred us to dormitory number 3. Naturally, he talked to

20 us first about why we came there, and we told him we had no convictions,

21 that we had come straight from the barracks.

22 Q. At that time when he was telling you to move to Room 3, how many

23 people had been detained in Room 2?

24 A. Approximately 45.

25 Q. Was Room 3 empty at the time, or were there people there, too?

Page 5227

1 A. I was moved into Room 3, and there was no one inside.

2 Q. Did he tell you why you were being moved to that room?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Explain why.

5 A. He told us we were moving to Room 3 because we had just arrived,

6 and that was the only room that had a key and that it had to be locked up.

7 Q. So were you locked up? What was the situation like?

8 A. Yes. Mr. Kajin told us, "Stay here. Here, take the key and lock

9 yourselves up. If I come and call you out, you can unlock. Otherwise,

10 don't."

11 Q. Did you do as he said?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Concerning your stay outside the room or movement outside of the

14 room, did Kajin tell you anything?

15 A. Yes, he did. If you mean free movement.

16 Q. Can you tell us what it was that he told you about movement?

17 A. What do you mean, sir?

18 Q. Did he say that you shouldn't get out of your rooms, that you were

19 not allowed to move outside, or he told you that you could go outside,

20 that you were allowed to be outdoors? What did he tell you?

21 Will you please just wait for the interpretation and then you can

22 start answering.

23 A. He told us that we could freely go out of our dormitories, and if

24 we see anyone we knew, that we could talk to them.

25 Q. Did you then move outside of that room, go to visit other

Page 5228

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Page 5229

1 detainees?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you talk to other detainees? Did they tell you anything in

4 specific?

5 A. Yes. Do I have to answer this about what they specifically said?

6 They told us specifically to beware of Zigic, to beware of Duca,

7 to beware of the man called Pop. I don't know his name, but he was known

8 there as Pop.

9 Q. Did those detainees warn you against some other people who you

10 should beware of?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us who are those people?

13 A. They were brothers, Predrag and Nenad.

14 Q. Were there any military detainees in that area?

15 A. Yes, but the military prison was behind Keraterm. I apologise.

16 Q. Those military detainees, did they have the freedom of movement

17 inside Keraterm within the compound?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were they dangerous?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. After having spent time in Room 3, did you stay there?

22 A. No. In the morning -- I mean, the night passed quietly, and one

23 of the Banovics came in the morning. It was Predrag or Nenad. This one

24 had long hair. One had long hair and the other had short hair, and the

25 one who had short hair came in the morning, took the key, and transferred

Page 5230

1 us to dormitory number 2.

2 Q. So the next morning, all of you who were in Room 3 the previous

3 day were moved into Room 2; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Tell us, please, what kind of door did you have on Rooms 2 and 3?

6 A. It was a solid door on Room 3, but you couldn't lock it. In

7 number 2, you could see through the door, and it couldn't be locked.

8 Q. You mean those were not solid doors?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were there later some changes as regards those doors, and if there

11 were any, will you please describe them?

12 A. Yes, the doors were changed. At Kajin's initiative, bars were

13 placed there in the shape of a deltoid, like baklava [as interpreted],

14 rhomboid. And so that metal workers came and did that with bars so that

15 the doors to dormitories 1 and 2 could be locked the same way as the door

16 to dormitory 3.

17 Q. And in those early days of your stay in Keraterm, did anyone come

18 to visit you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you -- can you tell us who and describe the visit? What was

21 it about?

22 A. I can, yes. It was the -- I came to the camp on the 10th of

23 June. On the 11th of June, Milan Curguz came to Keraterm, and when he saw

24 us, he asked us, "What are you doing here?" And we said, "We've come here

25 without any charges, just as we told Kajin and those guards next to the

Page 5231

1 weigh hut." And then he said, "I'll check that. But you write down a

2 list of things you need so that I can bring them to you from home, and

3 I'll come again tomorrow."

4 Q. Did Milan Curguz have a nickname?

5 A. His nickname was Krivi, Crooked.

6 Q. And when he visited you, in what capacity did he come? As a

7 civilian or what?

8 A. As a reserve policeman.

9 Q. And where did he work as a reserve policeman?

10 A. In Gornje Ljubija.

11 Q. And at that time, did you know how many people from Ljubija were

12 there in Keraterm alongside you, your neighbours, your acquaintances?

13 A. You mean from the beginning?

14 Q. Yes, that's right.

15 A. Yes. I knew them. When I came there on the 10th of 6 -- of June,

16 they were about 25 men from Ljubija.

17 Q. And were then all those men from Ljubija write that list and give

18 it to Milan Curguz?

19 A. Well, you know, let me put it this way: Many did do that, but how

20 many lists were there and how many people had given those lists, I don't

21 know. All I know is that the next day, when he came, he indeed brought --

22 whoever could send something, he sent it. Whoever he found at home did do

23 something. How much of that there was of the things that he brought, I

24 don't know. He brought, for instance, for me personally.

25 Q. And the next day, when he brought those things, was Kajin present

Page 5232

1 there when those things were distributed?

2 A. He was.

3 Q. Did anyone stop or try to prevent Milan Curguz from distributing

4 those parcels?

5 A. No, nobody tried to prevent him. He entered in a green Mercedes

6 200D, and he went straight to the dormitories and gave us those packages.

7 Q. And do you also know who Pero Curguz is?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Can you tell us something about him?

10 A. Yes. He worked for the Red Cross. According to Milan Curguz,

11 Krivi, that was his brother, and that brother sent us eight tins for us

12 Ljubijans to split among ourselves.

13 Q. And did Curguz send you anything else, apart from those tins?

14 A. He did. He sent blankets. He gave us what he could, I mean, for

15 us. I mean -- well, he did what he could.

16 Q. And how about the use of the lavatory, of the toilet, during your

17 stay in Keraterm?

18 A. Well, let me put it like this: By day, we went to the toilet. At

19 night, we had a barrel which Mr. Kajin practically told us to take it in,

20 and never to go to the toilet one by one but always to go in a group -- in

21 groups of twos or threes. And for our safety, he put in -- or, rather, he

22 didn't put in, but he told us to take in a barrel because when the night

23 begins to fall, he told us not to go anywhere but to use that barrel as a

24 toilet, and in the morning, when we get up, to then take that barrel,

25 empty it.

Page 5233

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Page 5234

1 Q. And was that how it was in other rooms too?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Is it correct that he advised you -- how he advised you that he

4 did that, concern for your own safety?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Apart from you and others that you mentioned, you and your friends

7 from Ljubija, did other prisoners have an opportunity to get their food

8 from outside or perhaps some packages or --

9 A. Yes. The Prijedorans got it because their neighbours, their

10 relations, brought it, or their acquaintances, whether from the army or

11 the police. It depended on how one managed. For us, the Ljubijans, I

12 repeat, it was Milan Curguz, called Krivi, who brought it to us.

13 Q. Those neighbours, relations, friends and all the others, where

14 would they bring this food?

15 A. They would bring it to the gate. And from the gate -- but when --

16 when they brought this food, then they would put a note in the bag for

17 whom that food was intended, and they would bring it to the gate and hand

18 it over to the policeman, and the policeman would then bring it to us

19 because they could not enter.

20 Q. And were those things then handed over to detainees?

21 A. They were.

22 Q. Did that happen often during your stay in Keraterm?

23 A. It did, yes, during my stay there.

24 Q. Now, that was as regards these parcels. I now should like to ask

25 you something about food in Keraterm, that is food that came to Keraterm.

Page 5235

1 What can you tell us about that?

2 A. You mean what we had there, the rations?

3 Q. That's right.

4 A. Well, it came once a day, and when it came, it arrived in military

5 vehicles. That is, it was a green van which brought it. And then that

6 food was distributed among us. For instance, first goes the first

7 dormitory, that is ten of them come out and they get a ladleful of food.

8 And when it is over -- I mean, they also had to wash the plates, because

9 those who had eaten had to wash those plates and take it back to the cook

10 or those who -- or the servers, I don't know what to call them. So you --

11 today, for instance, we had dormitory 1 first. Tomorrow, it's dormitory 2

12 which is the first one. The third day, it's dormitory 3, and so on and so

13 forth. Now, if there is some food left over, then of course, you were

14 entitled to a second helping. And there were also detainees who would

15 give -- who swapped their lunch for two cigarettes. I did that. Ante

16 Perkovic did that, too.

17 Q. Excuse me, who did you swap it with?

18 A. The non-smokers, detainees.

19 Q. Until when were you detained in Keraterm?

20 A. Until the 7th of July, 1992.

21 Q. And during that time, did you get your ration of food every day?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know one of those who brought this food, who drove those

24 vans that you mentioned?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5236

1 Q. Can you tell us whom, do you know?

2 A. There was one Brko, a tall one. They addressed him as "Captain."

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, we will take a break at ten minutes

4 till four for ten minutes, and we'll work until five.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I shall mind the time. Thank

6 you.

7 Q. Can you now be more specific? When those food rations were

8 distributed among you, shall I call it when you got your lunch, what kind

9 of food did this lunch consist of?

10 A. There was rice, potatoes, cabbage.

11 Q. Did you mention beans, too?

12 A. Sure.

13 JUDGE MAY: There's no point, Mr. Rodic, you giving the evidence.

14 It's the witness who must give it. Can we move on.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I heard it in B/C/S, and

16 that is why I asked. I didn't intend to lead the witness. And I should

17 like to hear interpreted what the witness says in B/C/S, and one can check

18 what was said.

19 Q. And did you get any bread with that food?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How much?

22 A. Well, at times it would be a quarter of a loaf in one piece, and

23 at times there were only slices.

24 Q. And in relation to what we heard before you with regard to that

25 food and that bread, if I now tell you that one could see the mountain

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Page 5238

1 Kozara through those slices of bread and that the lunch was just water or

2 some watery soup with a leaf of cabbage, with a single leaf of cabbage,

3 would you agree with that?

4 A. No, not during my stay. When I was there, that was not so. But

5 there's one thing, and I've already said it: There were people who gave

6 their lunch for two cigarettes. There were people who received food from

7 home, for instance, a potato meal. So of course, they see that and then

8 they see that cabbage over there and -- no, I'm not saying that. I'm not

9 saying that it wasn't difficult through all that. But the one who had a

10 proper potato pie, he didn't offer me to have a bite. No, he sneered at

11 me, scoffed at me for eating the cabbage.

12 Q. But what you're saying is that that food certainly wasn't as good

13 as the one you had at home, but what would you call it?

14 A. Well, I had enough when I get something from home and I get a

15 little full of that, and at times I also gave food for two cigarettes.

16 Q. Did anyone force you to eat fast or could you eat at a normal

17 pace?

18 A. You know what? You get that ration and you eat five, ten minutes,

19 but you eat slowly, but then you think of those others, that they should

20 also. But nobody forced me something that I had to finish it in two

21 minutes or five minutes.

22 Q. And at the time when you were performing the meal that you

23 received once a day, how did you then wash those plates?

24 A. There was a cistern -- no, let me put it this way: If there was

25 power, then we used the water from the hydrant. If there was no power,

Page 5239

1 then the water was brought in water trucks.

2 Q. And did this water truck -- was this water truck often in

3 Keraterm?

4 A. Yes. Whenever the power was cut, then the water truck would come.

5 Q. And where would this water truck park when it came to Keraterm?

6 A. Well, I don't know if you know what it looks like, but it was

7 between dormitory 1 and 2. That is usually where it was parked.

8 Q. Tell us, could you freely use the water from the water truck and

9 for what?

10 A. Yes, we could use it freely. First when the truck comes, then you

11 fill the vessels that we have in the rooms, and then the rest is used for

12 other needs. And if there is some water left over, then we could wash

13 ourselves. And, well, it wasn't much of a washing, but, yes, we could

14 undress to the waist and, you know, a bit like this.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I believe

16 now it is time for a break.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

18 Witness DO, we will adjourn for ten minutes. During the

19 adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody, and that

20 includes the members of the Defence.

21 We are adjourned.

22 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 5240

1 Q. If I understood you correctly, when you were mentioning that a

2 barrel was brought into your dormitory to serve as a toilet during the

3 night, you also referred to the warning given to you as made by Kajin to

4 go to the lavatory in groups of two or three during the night for your

5 safety; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And as for the bars which were put up on the doors of Rooms 1 and

8 2, why was that done?

9 A. For our safety.

10 Q. Please, I would like to ask you one thing. When I ask a question,

11 make a pause before answering, because the interpreters asked us to make

12 pause between question and answer, to avoid overlapping.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. We talked previously about access to water in Keraterm. I asked

15 you whether anyone restricted your access to water.

16 A. No, not during the time I was there.

17 Q. Did it ever happen that a water tank arrived at Keraterm and that

18 the water was poured out onto the concrete while the prisoners were not

19 allowed to use it?

20 A. No, not during the time I was there.

21 Q. And concerning your time outside of your rooms, could you tell us

22 how that -- what that looked like?

23 A. When that door was put up, we got out at 7.00 in the morning, and

24 we were able to visit other dormitories from number 1 to number 4. We

25 could talk.

Page 5241

1 Q. Did it happen during the day that you had to go back to your

2 rooms?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Why?

5 A. What shall I tell you? Why? Because of fools, fools. Outcasts

6 would come in, and then we had to go back to our rooms for our own safety,

7 and until they leave, we couldn't go out again. And they stayed sometimes

8 for two or three hours, provoke people and say things like, "Kill the

9 Turks. Send them to the front line. Why are you defending them? Fuck

10 their Turkish mothers." I apologise for using these words, but that's

11 what it looked like.

12 Q. Could you clarify for the record who provoked these policemen?

13 A. I already said, Zigic, Duca and that man Pop. They provoked them,

14 and also the troops which passed on that road from Prijedor to Banja Luka,

15 they were also provoked by the military detainees and so on and so forth.

16 Q. In terms of its position, Keraterm is just by the thoroughfare

17 from Prijedor to Banja Luka; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did the army convoys use that road?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who forced you back into your dormitories when such soldiers would

22 arrive?

23 A. Kajin.

24 Q. Did other guards also make you go back to your dormitories in such

25 situations, when such people would come?

Page 5242

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Page 5243

1 A. No. In fact, it did happen, but it was him, for the most part,

2 who made us go back in for our safety. He always told us, "Beware of the

3 yellow Mercedes. Beware of the transports heading for the front line.

4 And if I'm not around, go back into your dormitories because they can open

5 fire from their vehicles, from their Deutz and other vehicles."

6 Q. And when such dangerous situations would be over, would you go

7 back outside?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know Kajin from before your time when you arrived at

10 Keraterm? And if you do, will you please describe him and tell us what

11 you know about him.

12 A. I made his acquaintance by accident. [redacted]

13 [redacted], and myself were going to a discotheque in the Prijedor hotel, and

14 [redacted], introduced me to Kajin, and

15 he introduced him as the bouncer at the discotheque.

16 Q. What was Kajin like in contacts with the detainees in Keraterm?

17 Did he have any contact with you?

18 A. Yes, he came by. I must say that when we were discussing charges

19 that brought us to Keraterm, he said that he would do what he could and

20 that we shouldn't bear him any grudge.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "When we were

22 discussing the fact that we were brought to Keraterm without any charges

23 being made against us," is what the witness seems to have said.

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. In what places and what locations did he talk to you?

Page 5244

1 A. In the dormitory or outside, outdoors. Whenever he caught a

2 convenient moment.

3 Q. So that is your knowledge and your impression which you just gave

4 us. Did you talk, did you talk to other prisoners about this and did you

5 hear similar things from them, or did they say something different?

6 A. You may believe or not believe what I say, but many said that they

7 slept well at night when Kajin was on duty at the camp. He inspired them

8 with some feeling of safety, security.

9 Q. Do you remember a specific situation related to him during that

10 period you were at Keraterm?

11 A. I will never forget it when he came out, took off his belt with a

12 pistol and threw it on the ground and said, "I can't do this job any

13 more," and he looked up at the windows. When he left towards the weigh

14 hut, another policeman came up, picked up his belt from the ground, and

15 went after him. And he also said, "I would rather go to Australia and

16 hunt for kangaroos, but I just can't do this any more."

17 Q. When you say he was looking up at the windows, where was he

18 located on that occasion when you saw this and heard this? What windows

19 did you mean?

20 A. I mean the upper windows of the dormitory number 2, and he came

21 from behind, from around the corner.

22 Q. You mean from around the corner up to the windows?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know roughly the time when this happened?

25 A. Roughly, it was about 11.00, 12.00.

Page 5245

1 Q. I mean the period of time, like date, month, if you remember.

2 A. It was just before my departure. At that time, of course, I

3 didn't know I would be going to Omarska, but it was sometime before that,

4 on the 20th, 25th, 26th, when he did that.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, 20th, 25th of June.

6 MR. RODIC:

7 Q. [Interpretation] And about those windows upstairs, up in the

8 dormitories 1 and 2?

9 A. I didn't go up there, but I heard from other people that

10 interrogations were held there. Who conducted the interrogations, I don't

11 know, because I didn't go up there myself. But I heard it from other

12 prisoners, detainees, inmates, whatever you want to call them, that there

13 were inspectors up there who questioned people.

14 Q. Did you see Kajin after that incident?

15 A. Yes. Before my departure for Omarska, I saw him again. I saw him

16 back. I don't know whether he came back of his own free will or not. I

17 don't know because I never discussed it with him.

18 Q. You already said that on the 7th of July, you left Keraterm.

19 Could you describe the moment of your departure in greater detail? What

20 did it look like?

21 A. Since we came to Keraterm, were brought to Keraterm, without any

22 charges against us, as military deserters, but there were no charges

23 against us nor any explanation of why we were there, one day, that was on

24 the 7th of July 1992, two buses arrived and they said we were going to

25 Ljubija, home to Ljubija. I mean the guard came and said this. However,

Page 5246

1 instead of going to Ljubija, we went to Omarska.

2 Q. During the time you were at Keraterm until the 7th of July, did

3 any medical staff come to Keraterm and, if so, who were they and what did

4 they do?

5 A. Yes. This man, Tomislav Miljenko, came every other day or maybe

6 once in three days. He issued medicines. What kind of medicines? I

7 think he gave medicines to patient -- to people with heart problems, and

8 also medicines that helped control anxiety.

9 Q. Did anyone ask you or could you approach anyone regarding medical

10 assistance?

11 A. Yes, we could approach -- I already said I didn't ask for medical

12 assistance myself, but many others did. I don't want it to sound like I'm

13 praising Kajin too much, but many people got medical assistance and

14 medicines through Kajin. He brought it -- he brought them from Prijedor

15 for people. I know Mladen Petrovic who also got medicines through Kajin,

16 and Ante, another man Ante also did.

17 Q. Until what time did you stay at Omarska?

18 A. The 6th of August, 1992.

19 Q. What happened to you after Omarska?

20 A. I went to Manjaca.

21 Q. After Manjaca, did you get out of the camp?

22 A. No. At Manjaca, I got -- well, I got dysentery back in Omarska,

23 and then up there at Manjaca, when [redacted] saw me in that condition,

24 he transferred me to Trnopolje.

25 Q. It's not reflected faithfully in the record. I want to ask you

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Page 5248

1 again: Where did you contract dysentery?

2 A. At Omarska.

3 Q. Is it true that, sick as you were, you were transferred to

4 Manjaca?

5 A. I was sick and I wasn't. I didn't know any longer who I was or

6 where I was.

7 Q. And did [redacted] then transfer you from Manjaca to Trnopolje?

8 A. Yes. He transferred me and [redacted] and another man. [redacted]

9 was his nickname. The three of us were transferred from Manjaca to

10 Trnopolje.

11 Q. Until what time did you stay at Trnopolje?

12 A. It took me some time to recover, to regain my senses, because

13 there was a doctor there and the Red Cross. And then some Ukrainian men

14 came from Orlovci, and then we went to pick corn. They were -- they had

15 this company, Velepromet, in Trnoplje, and they used us for work there.

16 And we stayed there until sometime near Christmas, the 22nd, the 23rd

17 November.

18 Q. Are you talking about the year 1992?

19 A. Yes, 1992.

20 Q. And in conclusion, I would like to ask you, during the time you

21 spent at Keraterm, did you ever see or hear from any of the other

22 detainees that Kajin had killed, beat, or in any way mistreated anyone?

23 A. No. As far as my time at Keraterm is concerned, I didn't hear any

24 such thing from anyone.

25 Q. Did you see anything like that?

Page 5249

1 A. No, I never saw him. But I know that Zigic, Duca, Pop, and

2 military extremists who had run out of control came in and did such

3 things.

4 Q. Did you ever see Kajin issue any orders to anyone at Keraterm?

5 A. How could an ordinary guard issue orders? No.

6 Q. Did you ever see Kajin present when somebody was ill-treated or

7 beaten? Was he around there?

8 A. I did, yes. I saw it once. No, the three that I just mentioned

9 ago. First he made us go back into the dormitory, and then he got into an

10 argument with them. And they were telling him, "Why don't you go to the

11 front? Why are you defending the Turks? Finish them off." Or at times

12 there were also incidents when they would come from the military prison

13 and we are back in the dormitory, and then for two or three hours he sits

14 in front of the dormitory.

15 Q. Which means that you saw him in situations when he prevented such

16 men?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And finally, let me ask you, had you seen or heard anything bad

19 about Kajin, would you have come to testify in his Defence?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

23 questions.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

25 Cross-examination, Mr. Londrovic?

Page 5250

1 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no

2 questions.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Any cross-examination, Sir Ivan?

4 MR. LAWRENCE: [No translation].

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I take that to mean "no."

6 Mr. Ryneveld.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I understand we're

8 breaking at five. I'll make every effort to be done by then.

9 Might I just ask to go into private session for a few questions --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: -- so I don't have to flip in and out? Thank you.

12 Are we now in private session, madam? Thank you.

13 [Private session]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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Page 5256

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]

7 MR. RYNEVELD:

8 Q. All right, sir. So Kajin was on duty when you arrived on the 10th

9 of June. And the next question I have, sir, is that you mentioned

10 something about a barrel being brought at night, and you were told to go

11 two by two or in threes. Was that because there were beatings going on at

12 Keraterm that you were concerned about?

13 A. No. That barrel didn't arrive that day -- I mean the day that we

14 arrived. The barrel came later, when the door was made for dormitory 2.

15 Q. Yes. The fact that you were told to use the barrel and not go out

16 at night, was that because there were beatings happening at Keraterm

17 during the evening hours?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was that happening on all shifts?

20 A. It happened, it did, during all shifts, but depends.

21 Q. Fewer on Kajin's, I take it?

22 A. Oh, come, it wasn't Kajin's shift. Let me explain something to

23 you, if I may, sir.

24 Q. Please.

25 A. Prijedorans knew Kajin. They knew the brothers, Predrag and

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Page 5258

1 Nenad. They knew Sanco and many other people. And that's how it turned

2 out. And I did not see Kajin have any rank insignia or anything to call

3 it Kajin's shift.

4 Q. I see. So you don't know whether Kajin had a shift. But

5 regardless of whose shift it was, these beatings happened on all the

6 shifts; are we agreed on that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Sir, I understand that you, in particular, felt you had enough to

9 eat while you were at Keraterm during your, what, 27 days some odd there?

10 A. Enough to eat? There was enough to eat when I'd be given a ladle,

11 but not enough to say I enjoyed it; I had something extra. There was food

12 prepared, a ladleful, but then I say I, I am the first one, and Ante

13 Perkovic, we gave whatever lunch that was, we would swap it for two

14 cigarettes. That is what it was.

15 Q. You were getting supplementary food from outside the camp, weren't

16 you?

17 A. From Ljubija.

18 Q. Yes. Did you lose a lot of weight during your 27 days at

19 Keraterm?

20 A. Well, let me see. In my opinion, just my assessment, about four

21 or five kilos during my stay in Keraterm.

22 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that there were others who didn't,

23 sir, who didn't fare as well as you did, who lost a lot of weight, who

24 went hungry?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5259

1 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that when people were lining up for their

2 food, they were in fact beaten while they were waiting in the queues.

3 Isn't that true?

4 A. In my presence, when people partook of their meals, no.

5 Q. I also suggest to you, sir, that the prisoners were given a couple

6 of minutes to eat their food - hurry, hurry, hurry - and if they didn't

7 finish it on time, they would be forced to either dump it on the ground

8 and quickly wash their dishes. That's what I'm suggesting to you. Do you

9 agree with that?

10 A. I said five minutes, seven minutes, ten minutes. Nobody shouted

11 at you, but we, because of ourselves, we wanted to eat it up because there

12 weren't enough plates, so we then wanted to wash them and return them.

13 And during my stay there, there were no beatings at lunchtime.

14 Q. Talking about these bars that were put on doors to Rooms 1 and 2,

15 I think you agreed with the suggestion by counsel that those bars were

16 there for your own safety. You were a detainee there; isn't that right?

17 A. Because of our safety, yes. And yes, I was detained there.

18 Q. And by definition, a detainee is someone who is there against his

19 will, correct?

20 A. Excuse me? Could you repeat that question, please?

21 Q. I'll rephrase it.

22 A. I mean, I apologise.

23 Q. I will rephrase it. I may have been somewhat obscure in the way I

24 asked it.

25 Would you agree with me that you weren't there of your own free

Page 5260

1 will; you were there because you were being detained there?

2 A. Naturally.

3 Q. Would you allow that the bars would also be there to keep you in

4 at night?

5 A. The bars were there for our safety's sake. Ours, that's what I

6 say, and I'll say it again if need be, because oftentimes these bars saved

7 many lives.

8 Q. When you say "saved many lives," isn't it true, sir, that there

9 were lots of beatings that happened at Keraterm?

10 A. I will say it again --

11 Q. It's simply --

12 A. Of course there were. Excuse me?

13 Q. Go ahead. I'm sorry, I didn't wait for the translation of your

14 reply before I asked the next question. That's my fault. Please answer,

15 please finish your answer.

16 A. I'll say it again: I am not saying that there were no beatings,

17 that there was no battery. I'm not running away from that. But where and

18 when ...

19 Q. You were not interrogated at Keraterm, were you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And yet you were shipped off to Omarska?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were there beatings at Omarska?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me one moment, please.

Page 5261

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Those are my questions, thank you.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld. Any re-examination?

4 Re-examined by Mr. Rodic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Witness DO, the Prosecutor asked you about shifts

6 and he mentioned Kajin, and I'd ask you, what did you know about shifts,

7 from your personal knowledge or from what somebody else told you? I mean,

8 the guard shifts, the shifts of guards which guarded Keraterm.

9 A. I've just said there were three shifts. Now, I don't know how you

10 will take what I'm about to say. I've just said that I didn't know about

11 Kajin. I didn't know about these brothers Banovic. I know there was a

12 fair guy, balding, Sanco was with him. One who used to work at the mines

13 at geological research. He works there to this day.

14 Q. Did all those people that you mentioned, were they all on the same

15 shift or did they work on different shifts? How was it?

16 A. They were on different shifts.

17 Q. And would you see, for instance, Kajin and brothers Banovic on the

18 same shift or not?

19 A. No, brothers Banovic and Kajin never worked together. They were

20 on different shifts. I mean, I saw them at different times.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. Thank

23 you.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

25 MR. LAWRENCE: Your Honour.

Page 5262

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan.

2 MR. LAWRENCE: Your Honour, as Your Honour will recall --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Sir Ivan, your microphone, please.

4 MR. LAWRENCE: It's on but probably not close enough to my mouth.

5 Your Honour will recall that this witness gave no evidence at all

6 concerning Kolundzija, and nor was he cross-examined. But in the course

7 of his answers he gave an answer about beatings which might be considered

8 to embrace - certainly the Prosecution will make the allegation - the

9 shift of Kolundzija.

10 In those circumstances, although I see the time and I would be

11 grateful of some opportunity to think about it, at the moment I want, if I

12 may, to leave open the possibility that I should seek the Court's leave

13 tomorrow to be able to cross-examine this witness about a matter which has

14 arisen ex improviso and possibly might have serious ramifications for my

15 client.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: How would it have arisen ex improviso?

17 MR. LAWRENCE: Well, the witness gave no evidence about the

18 matter, nor did I ask any questions in cross-examination arising out of

19 the witness's evidence, and therefore, until the answer was given that

20 beatings happened on all shifts, no matter had arisen which concerned

21 Mr. Kolundzija.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan, in the circumstances that you have

24 outlined, we would allow you, but it would have to be done this evening

25 and very shortly. It would not be reasonable to bring the witness back

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Page 5264

1 tomorrow for this purpose.

2 MR. LAWRENCE: I'm obliged.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence:

4 Q. Witness DO, do you ever remember seeing on -- in Keraterm when you

5 were there, a guard called Kolundzija or Kole?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do I take it from that that while you were there, he was never a

8 leader of any of the shifts, as far as you would -- as you could see? Let

9 me ask the question another way because that might be confusing to you.

10 Did you see all the guard leaders, that is, the leaders of all the various

11 shifts, or not?

12 A. I did not see any shift leaders at all, and I know nothing about

13 shift leaders.

14 MR. LAWRENCE: Might I just have a moment, please?

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, how many witnesses do you have for

17 tomorrow, to complete the list?

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are expecting four

19 witnesses for the day, but I think there will be only one witness who will

20 be -- who will take some time. Others are character witnesses, and I

21 believe they will be relatively short. So that I do think that we shall

22 be able to finish all that we had scheduled for this week.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: By tomorrow, which is the last day, yes.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I mean -- I mean the witnesses who

25 are in The Hague and whom we had envisaged for this week, and the same is

Page 5265

1 in the schedule that we filed for you.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

3 MR. LAWRENCE: May I continue?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Sir Ivan, yes.

5 MR. LAWRENCE:

6 Q. You've told us that you've never seen or heard of anybody called

7 Kole, Kolundzija. Did you hear -- ever hear anybody talking about such a

8 guard? A guard?

9 A. I'm sorry, I may have, and I may have not, but I just don't know

10 Kole. And I may have heard it, but it was eight years ago.

11 Q. You're saying that you may have heard it but you've forgotten?

12 A. I'm saying that I may have heard and I may have forgotten. I just

13 don't know. I can't remember now.

14 Q. And nobody has asked you about it?

15 A. No, nobody.

16 MR. LAWRENCE: I think that's as far as I can take it.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.

18 Witness DO, that concludes your testimony and you are released.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.30.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 5.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday the 19th day

23 of July, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

24

25