Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1488

1 Thursday, 20 September 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon. Would the registrar please call the

7 case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Examination-in-chief by the Prosecutor still

12 continuing.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Before I continue with the examination-in-chief, the sequence of

15 events that we were dealing with yesterday, there is one evidential matter

16 that I want to raise. On the list of exhibits provided to the Chamber for

17 the pre-trial proceedings, there was a list of documents and various other

18 items that I indicated were not to be produced in evidence, and you can

19 see them on the 65 ter list of exhibits.

20 This afternoon my colleague Ms. Reidy discussed one of those

21 exhibits with me; in particular, this witness' memoirs. And they're on

22 the -- for the purposes of Defence counsel and for the Chamber, they can

23 be found as B10 on the list of exhibits. I now take the view that those

24 memoirs are relevant and would be of assistance to the Tribunal, and in

25 effect, I want to change my mind about what I've written in the list, and

Page 1489

1 so I intend to produce those to this witness and seek to tender them into

2 evidence.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: So you would like the witness to discuss them?

4 MR. DI FAZIO: No. I just want him to identify him them, say

5 they're his, and put them in. Anything that we need, as far as the

6 Prosecution is concerned, at least, that we need, we can simply get from

7 the written word, from the document itself. So I don't need to dwell on

8 this particular piece of evidence. I simply want to tender it. I've

9 taken the liberty of advising my colleagues from the Defence table that I

10 propose to do this.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. We have English translations?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Now, the haste of my decision, unfortunately,

13 means that I don't have many -- or don't have sufficient copies. But as I

14 said, I don't intend to dwell on them. I simply will ask the witness to

15 identify them and then produce them into evidence.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But we still need the English

17 translations --

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: -- for purposes of the record and for purposes of

20 writing the judgement as well.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, yes. There's no question about that. They

22 won't simply be in B/C/S.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Are you tendering the English translation at a later

24 stage?

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'm told that we can provide the translation

Page 1490

1 possibly this afternoon.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So you notified the Defence counsels today?

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, just a matter of moments ago. So it's the

4 memoirs of Mr. Tihic.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Written by himself.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Written by himself.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. I'll hear from the Defence counsel.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, Your Honours, we strongly object

9 to this proposal from our learned colleague from the Prosecution on the

10 basis that we act here according to the rules. We have very precise and

11 stringent rules. Our colleagues from the Prosecution filed a list of

12 exhibits, and therefore notified Defence about the list, exact list of the

13 exhibits, and to some extent they gave us information about, I would say,

14 evidence framework for this proceedings. It is a matter of principle; and

15 due to that fact, I think if this application would be granted, then we

16 are entering into an area of legal insecurity, because we have very

17 precise rules. Thank you very much.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me ask some questions, Counsel. You did receive

19 these documents?

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, that's correct, Madam President.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: When?

22 MR. PANTELIC: It was in pre-trial phase, during the process of

23 reciprocal discovery.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: So you received them, and then, later on, that's

25 when the Prosecution indicated that they were not going to use them in

Page 1491

1 their case.

2 MR. PANTELIC: That's right. And that was in -- I do believe it

3 was in the month of April or something. So after this final approach, we

4 obviously made our strategies towards the certain direction of list of

5 exhibits.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. di Fazio, I have a question of you.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

9 JUDGE SINGH: These memoirs, can you tell us if these notes -- I

10 don't know what they are, maybe they are notes -- were they kept

11 contemporaneously? Is this a contemporaneous document?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: No. No, it's not a contemporaneous document. It's

13 literally memoirs.

14 JUDGE SINGH: Can you tell us when they were written and the basis

15 of which you seek to admit these documents?

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me? The document

17 itself, at least the English translation that I have, is undated, but I'm

18 informed by my colleague that it was prepared -- the memoirs were prepared

19 in April of 1995. The basis of admission of the document is that it is

20 simply relevant. It is his memoirs of the period of time that we are

21 dealing with. It is an account of the period of time that -- that we are

22 dealing with, and therefore, on that basis alone, it immediately becomes

23 relevant.

24 JUDGE SINGH: But what is the law on it? I can understand if he

25 keeps a diary of a contemporaneous nature, it's admissible, in all

Page 1492

1 probability. But if the document is kept much later, on what basis is it

2 allowed? You should be able to go to some law on that now.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'm not aware of any particular decision that

4 prohibits the admission of documentary evidence prepared at a later stage.

5 JUDGE SINGH: No. No. My question is what is the law that allows

6 it, not prohibits it, because you're speaking in negative tones now.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Rule 89(C): "A Chamber may admit any relevant

8 evidence which it deems to have probative value." That's Rule 89(C).

9 JUDGE SINGH: You're aware of other rules as well.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, yes.

11 JUDGE SINGH: The basic rule is, as far as documents are concerned

12 in respect of being brought into evidence, they should be of

13 contemporaneous nature.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down for the interpreters.

15 JUDGE SINGH: Either kept on the day of the events or probably

16 kept the next day or the day after, you see.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honour pleases, the rule or principle that

18 you have just referred to is one with which I am immediately familiar and

19 one which is completely apparent to me from having practised in Hong Kong

20 and Australia, and I expect that it's a principle of law well known in

21 common law jurisdictions with the rules of -- developed rules of evidence

22 that they have in those domestic jurisdictions. My position is that there

23 would be no such constriction upon this Chamber for the admission of the

24 evidence; there would be no requirement of contemporaneity for the

25 admission of the document. And so, in the absence of that rule, in the

Page 1493

1 absence of any such rule, developed common law rules relating to the

2 notions of contemporaneousness, you immediately have to go to first

3 principles, and that's relevance. And if you look at it from that point

4 of view, then I say that the memoirs must of necessity be relevant,

5 because they deal with the events in 1992. And that would be my

6 position.

7 JUDGE SINGH: But then again, on the first principles, you cannot

8 subordinate admissibility to relevance. In the first place, you must have

9 the right to produce it.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

11 JUDGE SINGH: But the other question I'd like to ask you, though,

12 is that -- I mean, if there is any material in there which you would like

13 to use, why not put it to him without looking at the diary and if he's

14 able to say so -- because you have already been examining him now for,

15 what, almost a week?

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, yes, yes.

17 JUDGE SINGH: Perhaps that might be a better course.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, yes, that would be one way of dealing with

19 the issue. But they are, of course, lengthy memoirs, and they are, of

20 course, detailed memoirs, and I'd -- it's a question of also time and

21 expediency. I don't want to spend too much time getting too much detail.

22 On the other hand, I don't suggest for one moment that the sort of detail

23 contained in the memoirs would be unhelpful or is extraneous or simply

24 would tax the Chamber. So that's the basis on which I can -- only basis

25 on which I can seek to produce it.

Page 1494

1 JUDGE SINGH: But you see, at the same time, if you produce his

2 memoirs -- and these memoirs, I don't know what length they are --

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

4 JUDGE SINGH: You would be imposing on the Court quite unnecessary

5 material as well. It is true that you may draw our attention to a couple

6 of paragraphs. But if that's so, then I think you can put these questions

7 to the witness, if you have already not put this evidence in.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Well, if that's the view of the Chamber, then

9 so be it, but ...

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Because following up on the questions you've been

11 answering, the rule is that where the witness is available, get the

12 evidence from the witness viva voce.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: And that would not put a strain on anybody, not even

15 the Defence.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'm certainly not arguing against that

17 principle, and I entirely agree that as a basic principle, that is the

18 correct way to proceed. Evidence should normally go in by way of viva

19 voce.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel slow down, please?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: We should apologise to the interpreters. We forget

22 about them.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I should extend my apologies. I have no quarrel

24 with the issue -- with the principle that the first source of evidence is

25 viva voce evidence. I can really only seek to introduce this evidence by

Page 1495

1 way of reference to two -- to the principle of relevance and on the basis

2 that it will, I say, I submit, assist the Chamber by the provision of even

3 greater detail. But that's the highest that I can put it at. And I

4 don't -- I've nothing more to put to the Chamber in terms of its

5 eligibility for admission.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 MR. PANTELIC: May I have a word?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Did you want to say anything?

9 MR. PANTELIC: Just a few seconds, please.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

11 MR. PANTELIC: I would kindly and friendly remind my colleagues

12 from the Prosecution that we have here a case law regarding that issue;

13 namely it is the Krstic case with regard to the admission of evidence

14 during the course of the trial, as well as Prijedor case and Krnojelac

15 Foca prison case. So we have plenty of case law with regard to that

16 issue. And needless to emphasise, that we are not feeling secure in the

17 course these proceedings if we shall be in situation to be faced with

18 numerous evidences which might be out of blue came to our attention at

19 that particular day. Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber will make the decision after the

21 break.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

23 WITNESS: SULEJMAN TIHIC [Resumed]

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown the bundle of

Page 1496

1 photographs. There's just four more photographs that I want to show him.

2 Exhibit P14, please.

3 Examined by Mr. di Fazio: [Continued]

4 Q. Mr. Tihic, I just want you to look at photograph F18, and if you

5 may at the same time also look at photograph F19, please. Both

6 photographs appear to depict vacant land with grass growing. Firstly, can

7 you tell us where the location of those photographs is?

8 A. This is in Bosanski Samac, in an area where the mosque used to be.

9 Q. Where was the mosque?

10 A. It was here, in a park.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: We need the use of the ELMO, Mr. di Fazio, so that

12 the accused persons can follow the proceedings, please.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

14 MR. DI FAZIO:

15 Q. Just point out where the structure of the mosque was on photograph

16 F18, please.

17 A. I think it was somewhere around here.

18 Q. Thank you. And just for the sake of completeness, indicate it on

19 F19, please.

20 A. I think this is the area.

21 Q. Thank you. And if you would now look at photographs F40 and F41.

22 We can see a structure there, and what is that?

23 A. This building is the Orthodox church.

24 Q. Thank you. In the area -- the vacant area depicted in the

25 photograph immediately in front of the Orthodox church in F40, was it

Page 1497

1 always vacant land?

2 A. This is where the Catholic church used to be.

3 Q. Thank you. And if you would just quickly look at F41. Is it the

4 case that on the left you can see the Orthodox church?

5 A. Yes. Yes, that is the Orthodox church.

6 Q. And so if I understand your evidence correctly, the Catholic

7 church stood across the road, and you can see the vacant area on the

8 right?

9 A. Yes, across the road from the Catholic church. You could see that

10 on the previous photograph.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I've finished with the photographs.

12 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Tihic, we had arrived at the point where you were

13 taken to Batajnica, and you described some of the activities, for want of

14 a better word, that occurred there. How long did you remain at Batajnica?

15 A. From the 3rd until the 27th of May.

16 Q. [redacted]

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What about Dragan Lukac?

19 A. Dragan Lukac was there too.

20 Q. Were those two men that I've mentioned ever taken away from

21 Batajnica while you still were there?

22 A. I think that I have already mentioned that Fadil Topcagic and

23 another person came from Bosanski Samac and that they took [redacted],

24 Dragan Lukac, Franjo Barugdzic [phoen], and another person from the area

25 of the municipality of Modrica or Gradacac to be exchanged. I don't know

Page 1498

1 where is it that they actually took them, but I do know that they took

2 them away from that room, and later on I learned that they were in fact

3 taken to Bosanski Samac.

4 Q. Thank you. I'll get on to that episode shortly, but I'm really

5 referring to before that. Were [redacted] or Dragan Lukac and possibly

6 other men ever taken away for a short period of time?

7 A. Yes. In the early days, in the first few days that we spent in

8 Batajnica, soldiers came, ordered them to take off the clothes they had,

9 gave them some military clothes, and they -- a couple of them, including

10 Selmo Mujkanovic, they put on those military clothes and were taken

11 outside of that area. Later on I learned that they were in the Zemun

12 prison. They came back a couple of days later. Zemun is part of

13 Belgrade.

14 Q. Is Zemun in Serbia?

15 A. Yes. It's quite close to Batajnica, 20 or 30 kilometres.

16 Q. The ethnic background of the prisoners in Batajnica, can you

17 comment upon that, please?

18 A. They were Bosniaks, Croats, and there was an American who was

19 brought in later.

20 Q. What was his name?

21 A. I can't remember now, but I know that he used to tell us that he

22 was married to a Croat woman and he had joined the Croatian army and was

23 captured in Brcko. I really can't remember.

24 Q. You've described mistreatment that occurred at Batajnica: being

25 forced to sing songs and being humiliated by being forced to engage in

Page 1499

1 bizarre exercises and beatings. Other than that, was there any other sort

2 of mistreatment that you observed?

3 A. There were also interrogations. They would take us one by one to

4 a building where we were interrogated. And on one occasion we were taken

5 to a TV show. We were to be taped, and we were supposed to say something,

6 and I think that one of the police officers hit me on that occasion

7 because I was saying things that were, in his view, untrue.

8 Q. What about the American? Did you ever see him mistreated?

9 A. They beat him. It was quite interesting, in fact. He would not

10 moan at all for a while, until a lieutenant came, and he held his hands

11 like this. This was some kind of a yoga exercise. And when they

12 separated his hands like this, then he started to moan too. Right at the

13 very end, he wore a collar around his neck because they hurt his neck in

14 some way, his spine, and later on I saw him at Sremska Mitrovica.

15 Q. Was beating the only form of mistreatment suffered by the

16 American?

17 A. Yes. Well, in the same way as they maltreated us, they would us

18 ask us, "How large is Serbia?" And then we would have to say, "It reaches

19 all the way to Tokyo." He also had to sing songs, and all those soldiers

20 were really maltreating us in various ways. They forced him to say things

21 against America, just as they forced us to say things, but they did have

22 it in for him particularly.

23 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Zdravko Filipovic?

24 A. Yes. They brought the two of them together. According to what

25 they told us, they went from Zupanija to Brcko, and they were captured

Page 1500

1 there by the JNA as they ate a meal of cevapcici, and then they were

2 brought to Batajnica. And then Zdravko was together with me in Sremska

3 Mitrovica, in the camp there. They beat Zdravko quite badly too. He was

4 in his 20s. The lad was in his 20s.

5 Q. Was Zdravko Filipovic incarcerated at Batajnica at the same time

6 as the American?

7 A. Yes. They were brought in together at the same time, and they

8 were there.

9 Q. Was Zdravko Filipovic mistreated in any way apart from beatings?

10 A. Yes. He was also maltreated, as was everybody else. The two of

11 them were beaten more than the rest of us because they had already had

12 their way with us, so to speak, and they were new. This guy was an

13 American, he was in the Croatian army, and that's why they singled him out

14 for special abuse. They beat them really bad. They used brass knuckles

15 on their backs, and they kicked them in the kidneys.

16 Q. In the time that you were at Batajnica, did you see any sexual

17 mistreatment of prisoners?

18 A. They forced the American and Zdravko to take off their underpants

19 and to simulate intercourse.

20 Q. Is this in front of other prisoners?

21 A. Yes, yes. It happened that way.

22 Q. Were you photographed at all in the time that you were at

23 Batajnica? I just mean photographed. Not interviewed, photographed.

24 A. Yes. One day, they came and they gave us a disposable razor, just

25 one, to shave. We had quite long beards at the time because we couldn't

Page 1501

1 shave at all, so it was quite hard to shave, but we managed somehow. Then

2 they took us to a park, myself, Izet, Lukac - Dragan Lukac - [redacted].

3 [redacted].

4 There were perhaps five, six, up to ten journalists who took photographs

5 of us. And then they took us back. The next day -- I'm sorry. The next

6 day, I know that the soldiers came with some newspapers where it was

7 described how we had slaughtered Serbian children and then they beat us,

8 especially hard.

9 Q. Did you -- [inaudible]?

10 A. No. That's the way they were telling us. They were showing us

11 the newspaper with our pictures in the newspapers, and the reservists

12 came. They did not -- they had no idea that we were criminals of this

13 sort. And then they beat us, despite the fact that the journalists never

14 interviewed us at all. They told me that allegedly the Muslim side had

15 sentenced me to death, but I did not see that. That's what they told me.

16 Q. Thank you. Apart from photographs, were you ever interviewed

17 whilst at Batajnica?

18 A. Yes. A TV team came and made a TV programme about us. I know

19 that it was broadcast. We were also cast in a negative light. And the

20 next day after that programme, we were beaten again. They placed us in a

21 context of the events in Bosanski Brod where allegedly somebody had

22 slaughtered Serbian children and raped the women. I concluded this on the

23 basis of what the people who were beating us were saying. They were

24 saying, "You were doing this and that," despite the fact that we had

25 nothing to do with it. And there was -- there were interrogations. A

Page 1502

1 major from the state security service wanted to talk to us. The

2 conversation was actually quite all right. It lasted for about two hours,

3 and we discussed political issues in general. No record was made, and I

4 was not made to sign anything.

5 Q. Thank you. Just briefly explain to the Chamber how it was that in

6 the course of the TV programme that was made about you, they were able to

7 place you in a context of events at Bosanski Brod. How was this

8 achieved?

9 A. One day, maybe seven or eight days after our arrival, they brought

10 in some people from various places, one of them, Aljo, who was killed, who

11 died of the beating, was from -- he was from Sijelcovac, near Bosanski

12 Brod. There was a little lieutenant from Tuzla, some Croats from villages

13 around Modrica. And that was probably -- they say that Alija was also in

14 this TV programme. That may have been the way in which they placed us in

15 this context. They can edit things. I did not see this programme, but

16 according to the response of the reactions of the guards, I got the

17 impression that I was also labelled a slaughterer.

18 Q. Thank you. Were you eventually transferred from Batajnica?

19 A. Yes. On the 27th of May, we were transferred to Sremska

20 Mitrovica. That was a military camp, military prisoner camp. It was in

21 the former prison building. This building was constructed in

22 Austro-Hungarian times.

23 Q. Was this actually a proper prison in the sense of a building

24 constructed for that purpose?

25 A. It was a large complex. It was a well-known prison in the former

Page 1503

1 Yugoslavia. And perhaps one fourth of this complex was used as the

2 military prison camp. There were prisoners from Vukovar and 13 people

3 from Bosnia. There may have been some other people too, but I know about

4 the 13 people from Bosnia who were transferred there from Batajnica.

5 These are large buildings, old buildings, with a big four-metre tall wall.

6 Q. Is Sremska Mitrovica in Serbia?

7 A. Yes, Sremska Mitrovica is in Serbia.

8 Q. Was any reason given to you as to why you were being transferred

9 from Batajnica to Sremska Mitrovica?

10 A. No. They didn't tell us anything. They simply told us to get

11 ready. They handcuffed us. Some new military police officers came, put

12 us into Pinzgaver vehicles, and took us to Mitrovica. At that time, we

13 did not know where we were going. In fact, one of the guards did tell us

14 that we were going to Sremska Mitrovica; Ivica Pavisic [phoen].

15 Q. Were you accompanied by anyone who -- anyone from Bosanski Samac?

16 A. No. Just the police, military police officers. They sat in the

17 back with us. And as soon as we lifted our heads, we would be hit with a

18 truncheon.

19 Q. I think you mentioned earlier in your evidence a gentleman named

20 Selmo Mujkanovic. Who was that person?

21 A. Selmo Mujkanovic was with me in all the camps. We were in fact

22 handcuffed together with the steel cuffs, because they handcuffed us in

23 pairs and put us into Pinzgavers that way. He was a police officer. He

24 used to be a police officer in the Bosanski Samac police station.

25 Q. What I want to know is did he -- did he accompany you to Sremska

Page 1504

1 Mitrovica?

2 A. Yes, yes. We were handcuffed together in the Pinzgaver vehicle,

3 and we actually shared a room.

4 Q. Describe for the Chamber your accommodation, the living

5 circumstances that you experienced at Sremska Mitrovica, please.

6 A. In Sremska Mitrovica, we were in a big room, perhaps 25 metres

7 long and seven, eight metres wide. There were 50 of us there, 52, 53,

8 thereabouts. We were from Bosnia, and the rest of the people were all

9 from Vukovar. At the bottom of the room was a sink where we could wash

10 and the toilet. We were again beaten, mistreated.

11 When we arrived, this is where it was -- when it was especially

12 dangerous because we were beaten -- stripped naked and beaten until 2.00

13 or 3.00 in the morning. When you faint, they take you back to the cell,

14 and when you come to, they take you out again. One of them told me to lie

15 down on the desk, and he beat me on the -- on my abdomen. I told him not

16 to do that because I had surgery, and he asked me where I had the

17 surgery. I showed him the scar, and then he beat me on the scar. This

18 was really terrible, this beating. It lasted until 6.00 in the morning.

19 There was a captain who was a Croat. He remained in the JNA despite that

20 fact. And then he stopped the beating. But later on, they again beat

21 us.

22 In Mitrovica, they beat us according to a schedule. After the

23 breakfast and after the evening, that was the collective beating. And

24 then in the meantime, they would take out whoever they fancied and beat

25 that person.

Page 1505

1 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Tihic, how long before did you have your

2 surgery? How long before did you have your surgery? How many years

3 before? How long earlier?

4 A. In 1972. That's where I -- when I had my surgery. And now we are

5 talking about 1992.

6 MR. DI FAZIO:

7 Q. What was the surgery for?

8 A. I had an ileus, and that's why they had to cut out one metre of my

9 intestines. I also had a surgery on my left hip, and I asked him not to

10 hit me on the leg, on the hip, and he intentionally beat me precisely on

11 those places where it hurt the most. In the morning, I was unable to sit

12 up because my whole body hurt, and this Pavisic brought in a doctor, a

13 lady doctor. They told me to strip, and then he asked me, "Who beat

14 you?" And I said, "Nobody did," because the guy who beat me stood right

15 next to him. Then he asked me what I was by profession. I said I was a

16 lawyer. And he said, "Shame on you. You're a lawyer and you're lying."

17 But the other guys who said who beat them, as soon as Pavisic left, they

18 were beaten again. The lady doctor could not believe my blood pressure.

19 She took my blood pressure, and she was unable to believe the reading.

20 She had to take it several times to make sure that it was correct.

21 Q. Was there any singing of patriotic songs?

22 A. It was the same as in all the other camps. We had the standard

23 songs. Let me call them Chetnik songs.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour, please.

25 JUDGE SINGH: Did you suffer from low blood pressure or high blood

Page 1506

1 pressure at that time?

2 A. Low, low blood pressure. I always had low pressure.

3 MR. DI FAZIO:

4 Q. Yes. Thank you.

5 In the time that you were at Sremska Mitrovica, were you

6 interviewed?

7 A. Yes. Just before we were exchanged, the camp commander came,

8 around 6.00 a.m., and he called out a man by the name of Filip Karaula, a

9 German by the name of Kurt [phoen], and myself. We went out. Two police

10 officers with electric batons were with him. We thought that we had been

11 called out to be beaten. We were facing the wall. And then he said -- he

12 couldn't pronounce "R" correctly, and there was a team of foreign

13 journalists. He said, "I want you to give a statement to him. I want you

14 to say that nobody beat you, that you have proper hygienic conditions,

15 that you are entitled to walk, to have a walk, in accordance with the

16 regulations of the Red Cross." He asked us, "Is that clear?" We said,

17 "Yes." He said, "Do you have any questions?" And I said, "If they ask

18 me what happened before in Samac regarding the Arkan's men and so on ..."

19 He said, "I'm not interested in that, but you'll be better off not

20 talking, because they can always come here and take their revenge."

21 Then they took us to have a haircut and to wash. Then we gathered

22 up all the nicest clothes we had, and we put them on. They took us to

23 give an interview. This man nicknamed Plavisa [phoen], who was the chief

24 security officer, was present there. There was also the camp commander.

25 We gave a statement, and it was broadcast. They wanted me to

Page 1507

1 denounce -- actually, to call upon Alija Izetbegovic to exchange the JNA

2 soldiers that had been captured in Bosnia for us, and that's what I did.

3 I called upon him to do that. They told me then, "Tihic, it is up to you

4 and your statement whether you will be exchanged or not." That's what the

5 commander told me. There had been this rumour going on about this big

6 exchange that would take place, and this was, in fact, the exchange in

7 which I also was exchanged.

8 Q. Who were the interviewers? Where were they from?

9 A. As far as I understood later, it was Sky News, and the journalist

10 was their correspondent from Serbia. He spoke our language. So that is

11 what I gathered. I know that he had a beard.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

13 I'd like to show the Chamber a short video and indeed ask the

14 witness to identify this short video. I understand it's been provided to

15 the technical people, and we have transcripts of the video in English and

16 in B/C/S.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: The title of the video, please.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, it's referred to in -- I think the best way,

19 so that we can easily identify it at a later time, would be "Sulejman

20 Tihic interview in Sremska Mitrovica."

21 Perhaps before it's shown, Mr. Tihic, can I ask you to pay

22 attention to the video that will be shown now.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Before it is shown, can we have the scripts.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, and for the benefit of

25 those in the technical box, I really propose to do what I did on the last

Page 1508

1 occasion and just get Mr. Tihic to identify the occasion, unless there's

2 objections from the Chamber and from the Defence. It's only a short

3 video.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall have the numbers first.

5 So can we have the number, the video and the transcripts, both the

6 English and the Serbo-Croat.

7 THE REGISTRAR: The video of the interview with Sulejman Tihic

8 shall be marked for the record Prosecution Exhibit P17, and the transcript

9 shall be marked for the record as Prosecution's Exhibit P17A, and the

10 B/C/S version shall be P17A ter.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The Prosecution can proceed.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If perhaps it now can be played.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

15 Q. Mr. Tihic, can you identify the occasion that's depicted in that

16 videotape, at least insofar as you appear in it?

17 A. It was in Sremska Mitrovica, as it was said here, a few days

18 before the exchange, and these are the rooms, the premises, of the camp in

19 Mitrovica.

20 Q. Thank you. You foreshadowed a question of mine. You had an

21 opportunity to see the buildings and the men marching around depicted in

22 the video?

23 A. It was a common thing, a common position there. You had to

24 crouch, put your head between your knees. When you went out, you had to

25 keep your head down. When you talked to some officials, you again had to

Page 1509

1 keep your head down.

2 Q. Thank you. One of the persons who spoke in the course of the

3 interview was apparently a gentleman named Filip Karaula. Do you know

4 that person?

5 A. Yes. Filip was in the same room with me. As he told us, he was

6 the commander of a part of the defence in Vukovar, of a part which is

7 called Mitnica, and I guess when those others fled, he just stayed behind

8 as the leader.

9 Q. Thank you. You saw your appearance, the way you looked in the

10 video, at least the upper part of your body, and the Chamber has heard

11 your evidence regarding the beatings and the mistreatment that you

12 suffered in all of these prisoners but also Sremska Mitrovica. So I ask

13 you the same question that I did the other day: How can you reconcile, or

14 how do you reconcile your appearance with the evidence that you've given

15 of beatings and so on?

16 A. I gave this statement two or three days before the exchange.

17 About seven days before the exchange, the order had arrived not to beat us

18 anymore, so that we could look more or less decent at the time of the

19 exchange, because there would be the Red Cross present and others. So

20 that that was one of the reasons. And it is also due to the fact that

21 this Simo, who beat most, one day suddenly turned up and called out me and

22 Kedacic and - I don't know - Mujkanovic, and we thought he would call us

23 out so as to beat us. But he said to lift our heads, because we kept them

24 down. And he said, "Lift your heads," so we did, and looked at him. And

25 he said, "I apologise to all of you. I'm sorry that I beat you." This

Page 1510

1 was incredible. We couldn't believe our ears, because Simo instilled

2 terrible fear in all of us. And then he said, "We had been informed from

3 Batajnica that you had slaughtered some Serb children, and that was why I

4 beat you." So that for about 15 or 20 days, as soon as we had been

5 amnestied, to put it that way, by Simo, then we began to recover a little

6 then about seven days prior to the exchange, total prohibition to beat us

7 arrived. I mean, that was violated too, but there was no further beating

8 in the true sense of the word.

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. di Fazio, I wonder whether I can ask

10 Mr. Tihic: What was the surname of the man Simo you're referring to here,

11 please?

12 A. I don't know his last name. I know he was Simo. I know he was a

13 big man. There was something in his eyes which seemed to show that he

14 wasn't quite normal, and if -- and I know because he talked to our doctor,

15 to Miroslav Kedacic and complained to him that he -- some problem, that he

16 had headaches, that he had some other complaints. And he only told us

17 that his name was Simo. He never gave us his full name.

18 MR. DI FAZIO:

19 Q. I think -- I'm sure Your Honour will correct me if I'm wrong, but

20 this Simo has got nothing to do with the defendant in our case, Mr. Simo

21 Zaric?

22 A. No, he doesn't. No, no, he doesn't. No. It was a soldier, and

23 guarded us there.

24 Q. Did you ever work whilst you were held at Sremska Mitrovica?

25 A. One day they called us all out, the whole camp, and lined us up

Page 1511

1 along the building, hands behind our backs, heads down, and we didn't know

2 where they were taking us. Then some vehicles arrived, some vans, I think

3 furniture vans, no windows or anything, and they loaded us onto those

4 vans. It was August, so it was very hot. And they forced more people

5 into a van than we could properly fit, and then when we'd be all up there,

6 they would run up to us with their batons and push us so as to fit -- to

7 squeeze more people in. It was very stuffy because these vans were closed

8 from all sides. There was no air to breathe. And then we -- they would

9 take us somewhere for about -- the ride lasted half an hour, perhaps, and

10 then we fetched up on a rather large plot of land, in a meadow, and then

11 they again lined us up. The length of a line was about 400 or 500 metres,

12 and we were all lined up like that, and we faced that field or something.

13 It was a sugar beet field. And of course all kinds of thoughts then

14 occurred to you, "Will they kill me here or what?" But now we were

15 ordered to weed out that field of sugar beet, and that's what we did that

16 whole day. There was a lunch break, and they brought us something to eat

17 there. And then they took us back in the evening.

18 Otherwise, the routine was to clean the rooms, to clean the

19 command offices, the corridors, the WCs, and the like. Quite often, I

20 volunteered to do that because it was better than to just sit in a cell

21 and wait for them to come and take you.

22 Q. Were you eventually exchanged?

23 A. Yes. The big exchanges that took place between Yugoslavia and

24 Croatia, and we Bosnians were included in that. It was on the 14th of

25 August at Nemetin, near Osijek. It was also a painstaking exchange. It

Page 1512

1 took from 3.00 in the morning until 8.00 -- 1800. We drove through all

2 the Vojvodina villages. People would board the vehicles, hit us, kick us,

3 spit on us, call us Ustasha, but, well, an end came to that too. There

4 were 15 buses, you know, and I think that in every village we would stop

5 and the crowd would board the buses, ask questions, hit, kick, swear at

6 you. Then they'd give some brandy to the policemen, and the policemen

7 drink and, of course, intoxicated, start to give even more vent to that.

8 Another one -- one of the -- one of them said, "Look, we tried to make

9 them look nice for the exchange and now, you fool, look what you're doing

10 to them." And the major says, "Well, because they were swearing at my

11 mother," which of course does not stand to reason. And as the first man

12 gets off the bus, the policeman just hits him and then the major tells

13 him, "Now, I'll swear at your mother," and so on and so forth. So that

14 this exchange also was very painstaking and painful.

15 Q. Where was -- what was the location of the actual exchange? Was it

16 in Croatia?

17 A. Yes. That was in Croatia. That's what that place is called,

18 Nemetin, near Osijek.

19 Q. What did you do once you arrived in Croatia? I don't want you to

20 take us step by step through this. I just want you to tell the Chamber

21 how you handled your freedom in Croatia, what were the main things you did

22 after your release. For instance, did you get medical treatment?

23 A. Yes. When the exchange was over, I was met by my family members.

24 They took me to Rijeka. All those who were in the camp went to have

25 medical checkups. We were also allowed -- granted some summer holidays

Page 1513

1 somewhere on the coast for three weeks. I used only one week of that.

2 And I went for a medical checkup. It turned out that I had some broken

3 ribs which had healed in the meantime. But the sternal bone had

4 already -- had already cracked, and also this bone here, and my front

5 teeth were also broken. But I managed to put that more or less right.

6 After I came out of the camp, I couldn't sleep for about a month because

7 one simply didn't know, "Am I in the camp? What is the truth and what is

8 a dream?" But gradually, it fades, it fades out, it fades away, and now I

9 feel well.

10 Q. Did you eventually make your way back to Bosnia?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When did you get back to Bosnia?

13 A. Between 1994 and 1996, I was in Germany, worked for the Bosnian

14 embassy. And then in 1996, I returned to Sarajevo. And from 1996, I've

15 been living in Sarajevo; September 1996.

16 Q. What did you do in the Bosnian embassy in Germany?

17 A. Well, since I am a lawyer, I was the head of the consular

18 department, dealing with the issue of passports and various documents.

19 Q. Do you now live in Sarajevo?

20 A. I do, yes, in Sarajevo.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, I think I've just

22 about come to the end of my examination-in-chief. If you propose to take

23 a break this afternoon, would now be a suitable time to do so? I only ask

24 that because, if possible, I'd like an opportunity just to confer with my

25 colleagues over the examination-in-chief and see if there is anything that

Page 1514

1 I've missed. But I can indicate that even if I have missed something, it

2 would only be a matter of --

3 JUDGE SINGH: Just one question here. You're now back in

4 Sarajevo. What do you do there now?

5 A. I am in Sarajevo now, and I work professionally as the

6 Vice-President of the Party for Democratic Action. That is the largest

7 party in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And I'm also the Vice-President of the

8 People's Assembly of Republika Srpska, which is one of the two entities in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: We have no problem. I think we can take our -- in

12 which case, we will have a longer break because we are supposed to resume

13 at 1615 hours.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: If indeed, as I expect, this is the end of my

15 examination-in-chief, the issue of how we proceed later in the afternoon

16 might arise. Shall we deal with that then?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: At 1615?

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will have our break, and we will resume at

20 1615, quarter past 4.00.

21 --- Break taken at 3.40 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber will give its decision on the

24 motion by -- on the application by the Prosecution to reinstate the

25 memoirs of the witness on the exhibit list and to have them admitted, to

Page 1515

1 which the Defence objected and gave their reasons. The Trial Chamber did

2 put questions to the Prosecution which were answered.

3 The Trial Chamber is of the view that since the witness is

4 available, he should have been able to give evidence of any material facts

5 in the memoirs, besides the fact that the notes were not made

6 contemporaneously, that is, as the events happened. We were informed that

7 they were made in 1995. That is quite some time after the events. We do

8 not see why the Prosecution -- we were not informed, rather, why the

9 Prosecution changed their mind at the time that -- during the pre-trial

10 stage, and it is indeed in keeping with the Rules of Procedure and

11 Evidence that the case for the Prosecution, including the evidence that

12 they intended to produce at trial, is laid on the table before the trial

13 starts. In the event of new evidence, of course, being available, the

14 Trial Chamber would take the interests of justice into account, besides

15 any other considerations, to decide the issue.

16 In the instant case, the memoirs have been available with the

17 Prosecution for some time. It appears to have been a case of lack of

18 diligence on the part of the Prosecution.

19 The objection by the Defence is therefore sustained.

20 The witness is still on the stand. Any other matters by the

21 Prosecution in examination-in-chief?

22 MR. DI FAZIO: No. I've finished my examination-in-chief, thank

23 you, if Your Honours please.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to turn to the Defence and find out how

25 many Defence counsel intend to cross-examine this witness.

Page 1516

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, as far as I'm concerned, I'm going to

2 have at least a maximum 15 minutes of cross-examination, and I understand

3 that the all counsels would like to pose some questions in cross. And we

4 have decided that we shall start with Mr. Pisarevic as a starter for the

5 cross-examination.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, how long do you think you will take,

9 just roughly?

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Well, to be honest, Your Honours,

11 perhaps an hour, an hour and a half.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: And then the other counsel, of course. That will

13 mean more than the time that we have today. Yes, you may sit down,

14 counsel. You may sit down. Perhaps we can go into private session to

15 discuss the arrangements further.

16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1517

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 1517 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 1518

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 1518 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 1519

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 1519 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 1520

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 1520 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 1521

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 1521 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 1522

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [Open session]

14 MR. DI FAZIO: There is just one matter that I want to raise with

15 the Chamber, if I may, very briefly.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: It's just a question of, I'll be frank, convenience

18 to the Prosecution. If I call this witness -- when we call this witness,

19 that effectively ends my ability to speak to him and proof him, continue

20 to proof him. Would it be amenable to the Defence and to the Trial

21 Chamber if I used the time available to us to simply lead him through

22 personal matters and background material and not get on to the actual

23 events of incarceration or any of the events that formed the basis of

24 material in the indictment and still be permitted to speak to him?

25 Because we've got tomorrow off and the weekend and so on before he

Page 1523

1 continues. And if the Chamber is amenable to that, would you be prepared

2 to waive the rule that I should not speak to witnesses once they've

3 started to give their evidence? That's the only matter that I wanted to

4 raise. I don't know if the Defence have any attitude towards that.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe I can hear from the Defence.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours, I do believe it's perfectly fine

7 with us. I mean, within limits.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: You have no problem with that?

9 MR. PANTELIC: No. I think I'm speaking on behalf of all my

10 colleagues. Yes.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution will be allowed to speak to the

12 witness tomorrow -- before Monday, that is, okay.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: And the other question you asked, whether you would

15 be permitted to lead him on the matters which are not in contention, yes,

16 you can go ahead, as long as you limit it to matters which are particulars

17 and facts which are not in contention.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. What I proposed to deal with mainly was

19 background material and go as far as I could with that until I get to what

20 I think is probably going to be contentious material and then stop my

21 examination-in-chief at that point.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Of course the Defence will be following, and if they

23 feel it's leading on a contentious matter, then they will say so.

24 There are no protective measures for the coming witness?

25 MR. DI FAZIO: No.

Page 1524

1 JUDGE MUMBA: So we will remain in open session.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Will the witness please make the solemn

4 declaration?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 WITNESS: DRAGAN LUKAC

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, please sit down. The Prosecution,

10 please.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

12 Examined by Mr. di Fazio:

13 Q. Your full name is Dragan Lukac?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. When were you born?

16 A. 16th of October, 1956.

17 Q. And are you a married man?

18 A. I am.

19 Q. Do you have children?

20 A. I do, two.

21 Q. Where do you currently reside?

22 A. In Orasje at the moment.

23 Q. How would you describe your ethnic background?

24 A. I am of Croat ethnicity.

25 Q. What's your current occupation?

Page 1525

1 A. I teach philosophy and sociology.

2 Q. Where do you do that?

3 A. At present, in Sarajevo at the Federal Ministry of the Interior of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

5 Q. And how long have you been doing that?

6 A. Well, I've held the present job for the last five months -- for

7 the last five months, but I've worked for the police for some 20 years.

8 Q. Your current position in the Federal Ministry of the Interior, is

9 that somehow attached to the police?

10 A. At present, I'm acting director of the federal police under the

11 Ministry of the Interior -- under the Federal Ministry of the Interior.

12 Q. And what sort of -- what exactly do your duties there in that

13 position involve?

14 A. It involves planning and supervision of all police operations

15 within the Federal Ministry of the Interior of the Federation of Bosnia

16 and Herzegovina, in simplest terms.

17 Q. I want to ask you some questions about your past, your

18 background. Where were you raised?

19 A. I grew up in a village near Bosanski Samac, and from 1989, I've

20 lived in Bosanski Samac. I'm referring to the pre-war period. Excuse me,

21 1979.

22 Q. Thank you. In the former Yugoslavia, was it compulsory to perform

23 some sort of military service as a young man?

24 A. It was, yes.

25 Q. Did you perform any such military service?

Page 1526

1 A. I did.

2 Q. And can you tell the Chamber what that was and when, when you

3 actually performed that military service?

4 A. I served in 1982, 1983. I did a year-long service, and I attended

5 the reserve -- the school for reserve officers at Sremski Karlovci [as

6 interpreted].

7 Q. Did you acquire any rank while you were doing that?

8 A. I was lieutenant -- second lieutenant when I left the army and

9 then lieutenant four years later.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

11 MR. PANTELIC: Just a little intervention. I think the witness

12 said "Karlovac" and not "Sremski Karlovac." It's different place.

13 Karlovci is in Croatia. Karlovac, not Sremski Karlovac. It is line 16

14 page 38, 16, "School for reserve officers at Sremski Karlovci." So I

15 think the precise place is Karlovac, Croatia.

16 As I suggested before - pardon me, Madam President - I think for

17 the most people out of former Yugoslavia, it should be wise to use when --

18 I mean, it's a suggestion for the Prosecution. When you are speaking with

19 your witness and when the name of time -- town appears, it's not problem

20 to say where it is, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, something like that, to be

21 more familiar, if it's not a big problem, of course. Thank you.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I'm sure the Prosecutor will clarify

23 that and will take note.

24 MR. DI FAZIO:

25 Q. You heard that exchange. Can you just clarify the town where you

Page 1527

1 did your military service, please.

2 A. I served in Karlovac, in the then Socialist Republic of Croatia.

3 Q. Were you aware of a Territorial Defence system operating in the

4 former Yugoslavia, a TO system as sometimes people refer to it? Just let

5 us know if you were aware of it or not.

6 A. You could say that, yes.

7 Q. Now, reserve officer school, did it produce officers for the TO

8 system?

9 A. Yes, indeed. Precisely for the Territorial Defence.

10 Q. Was that as opposed to the JNA? In contrast to the JNA, perhaps

11 is a better way of putting it.

12 A. Not in contrast with, because the armed forces of the Socialist

13 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia included two components. One of them was

14 the active-duty forces. That was the JNA. And the other one was the

15 Territorial Defence, which was, to all intents and purposes, the reserve

16 force, which would then be engaged in case of a war in the territory of

17 the former Yugoslavia.

18 Q. In the time that you conducted your military service for that

19 year, did you become acquainted with the structure of the JNA, the way it

20 operated, the way it was set up in the former Yugoslavia?

21 A. Well, we did acquire some knowledge about certain issues during

22 our training.

23 Q. What did you do following your completion of service in the

24 reserve, army reserve?

25 A. Before I went to do my military service, I worked for the

Page 1528

1 Municipal Department for the Interior, in Bosanski Samac. And after my

2 military service I returned back to my old job, to the old unit that I was

3 with before I had left for my army service.

4 Q. Thank you. So in effect, your military service interrupted your

5 civilian career, so to speak?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. What was the position that you had acquired with the

8 Municipal Department for the Interior?

9 A. Before I went to do my military service, and after it, I was a CID

10 inspector in the Municipal Secretariat for the Interior in Bosanski Samac.

11 Q. For the sake of brevity, is the Municipal Secretariat for the

12 Interior also known by the acronym as "the SUP"?

13 A. That's right. Except because at that time it was not called "the

14 Ministry" but "the Secretariat of the Interior," and that was sekretariat

15 za uno trasnje poslava [phoen]. So that SUP is the acronym for the

16 Secretariat of the Interior.

17 Q. Thank you. Following your reserve military training, you resumed

18 your career as CID man, a CID inspector?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Where were you based?

21 A. In Bosanski Samac. In the territory of the Bosanski Samac

22 municipality.

23 Q. Did you receive promotion at all?

24 A. I kept that job, that office, until the 31st of December, 1986.

25 Q. And what happened then?

Page 1529

1 A. And from the 1st of January, 1987, I was appointed acting

2 secretary of the Secretariat of the Interior of the municipality of

3 Bosanski Samac.

4 Q. That's quite a mouthful. Does that essentially mean that you were

5 in the police?

6 A. Yes. But it's not that I worked for the police only; I was the

7 number one there.

8 Q. And what sort of work did that position entail?

9 A. Well, that office presumes managing the whole police authority in

10 the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

11 Q. How long did you keep that position?

12 A. I stayed there until the 1st of July, 1987; that is, six months.

13 Q. And following that, what position did you take up?

14 A. After that I was appointed head of the public security in the same

15 secretariat.

16 Q. How long did you retain that position?

17 A. And I kept that office, as far as I can remember, until November

18 1987.

19 Q. Please continue. What career change occurred after November 1987?

20 A. Then -- yes, there was a change, because the police in

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina underwent a reorganisation at that time. It involved

22 the abolition of municipal secretariats of the Interior and the

23 establishment of public security stations in municipalities and

24 incorporation of these stations in the Ministry of the Interior of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was -- which practically meant a higher level of

Page 1530

1 centralisation of the police in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. And were you appointed chief of the criminal division of that

3 public security station?

4 A. Yes, I was appointed chief of the CID department in that police

5 station.

6 Q. Were you in charge of uniformed police officers, or some different

7 aspect of police work?

8 A. No, not the uniformed police; only the criminal investigation

9 police.

10 Q. What sort of area did you cover?

11 A. All aspects of crime, of criminal activities in the territory of

12 the municipality.

13 Q. Thank you. I was actually referring more to a geographical area.

14 What sort of geographical area were you responsible for?

15 A. This is the -- geographically, this is the territory of Bosanski

16 Samac, which means 26 localities. Twenty-five are villages and one town;

17 that is, that of Bosanski Samac.

18 Q. How long did you retain that position?

19 A. I remained in that position until the 11th of April, 1992.

20 Q. What happened on the 11th of April, 1992?

21 A. On the 11th of April, 1992, the Republican Ministry of the

22 Interior appointed me acting chief of the public security station in the

23 Bosanski Samac municipality.

24 Q. May I just return briefly to your military service. After you

25 completed your year with the army reserve, did you retain any reservist

Page 1531

1 status?

2 A. Yes. My assignment was duty within then Territorial Defence units

3 for the territory of the Bosanski Samac municipality.

4 Q. How long did you keep up that assignment, that duty?

5 A. I kept it since I -- since my return from the military service,

6 which was August or September 1983, until the 1st of January, 1987.

7 Q. Why did it come to an end?

8 A. I stopped doing that because I was appointed the acting secretary

9 of the Secretariat of the Interior in the municipality, and according to

10 the law, I had to be in charge of the police in case of any war-type

11 situation.

12 Q. Thank you. I'd like to turn now to the TO, the TO system that

13 existed in Yugoslavia. Can you explain to the Chamber precisely how it

14 worked in the former Yugoslavia, how it was structured, what its main

15 functions were?

16 A. Well, I can't be very specific, but I can give you a rough

17 overview of the structure of the Territorial Defence as it was at the

18 time.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. The Territorial Defence in the former Yugoslavia was organised on

21 the level of the republics, unlike the other component, the active-duty

22 component, the JNA, which was organised on the level of the entire state.

23 The structure of the Territorial Defence was organised at the republican

24 level, where you had the republican TO staff. And below the republican

25 staff, there were regional Territorial Defence staffs. I think there were

Page 1532

1 nine such regions in Bosnia-Herzegovina, but I'm not quite sure about the

2 number. And then at the level of municipalities, you had the municipal

3 Territorial Defence staffs.

4 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what, in practical terms, it actually

5 meant to have a TO structure at the municipal level? Did they have an

6 office? Did they have weapons? Did they have meetings? Did they have

7 drills? Did they recruit? Tell the Chamber what it actually looked like

8 to see the TO at work at the municipal level.

9 A. Citizens able to serve in the military after their national

10 service were assigned, in accordance with their ability, to the structures

11 of the Territorial Defence units that were set up at the municipal level.

12 Some citizens were also assigned to active units of the JNA as reservists,

13 because that was their assignment.

14 The Territorial Defence was composed of several units which had a

15 certain purpose. I don't know how many such units were, for instance, in

16 the municipality of Bosanski Samac. The TO staff, the commander of the

17 staff, with a certain number of reserve officers working in the staff, was

18 a standing organ which existed in Bosanski Samac, and this is where these

19 people worked on a daily basis. They were employed there. And if there

20 were some military exercises, some units were raised and then they

21 underwent the training that was carried out during such exercises. They

22 were called up. Such staffs had certain administrative personnel which

23 provided services to the staff and enabled it to work.

24 Q. Did the TOs have weapons?

25 A. The Territorial Defence had a certain quantity of weapons. It was

Page 1533

1 stored in the depots of the Territorial Defence over a certain period of

2 time. It was stored in the depots which existed in each municipality and

3 also Bosanski Samac.

4 Q. Was there only one depot of weapons per municipality, or were

5 weapons stored in various depots within a municipality?

6 A. I don't know the situation in other municipalities, but as far as

7 I know, in Bosanski Samac there was just one storage site. This is where

8 the weapons were stored.

9 Q. And what sort of weapons did the TO normally have? Were they

10 light weapons, heavy weapons, artillery?

11 A. I think that these were mostly infantry weapons, with a certain

12 quantity of artillery pieces, with the appropriate quantities of

13 ammunition for such weapons.

14 Q. I want to turn from the general structure of the TO to some

15 questions about Bosanski Samac itself and the municipality. I think

16 everyone agrees that there were three main ethnic groups living in the

17 municipality: Croats, Serbs, and Muslims. Is that the case?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. There were, I think, a number of villages surrounding the town of

20 Bosanski Samac. Were they divided into either Croat or Serb villages?

21 A. I have already said that in the municipality of Bosanski Samac,

22 there were 26 inhabited areas or localities. Twenty-five were villages

23 and one was a town. As regards the ethnic composition of the population

24 in the municipality of Bosanski Samac, I can say that in -- that Croats

25 lived in a certain number of villages, Serbs lived in a number of

Page 1534

1 villages, and there were villages where both Serbs and Croats lived, while

2 Bosniaks in our municipality lived exclusively in the town of Bosanski

3 Samac.

4 Q. Thank you. Within the town of Bosanski Samac, did you find

5 members of all three ethnic groups?

6 A. Yes. Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs, and others lived in the town

7 itself.

8 Q. Did they confine themselves to particular areas of the town, or

9 did they -- were they mixed?

10 A. They were mixed.

11 Q. Are you familiar with the term Posavina?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Pre-April 1992, if someone had mentioned that word to you, what

14 would it have meant to you?

15 A. It would have meant a region within Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 Q. Can you describe it?

17 A. It's an area located in the north eastern part of Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina. It covered an area including several municipalities. In

19 addition to Bosanski Samac, there was also the municipality of Derventa,

20 the municipality of Bosanski Brod, the municipality of Odzak, of Modrica,

21 of Orasje, of Brcko, a part of the Gradacac municipality, and a part of

22 the Doboj municipality.

23 Q. Do I take your answer to mean that those municipalities that

24 you've just mentioned formed part of the Posavina?

25 A. These municipalities made up the region of Bosanska Posavina,

Page 1535

1 Bosnian Posavina.

2 Q. Again, I think it's generally agreed that the Sava River, which

3 flows close to Bosanski Samac, forms the border with Croatia. Am I

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. In pre-April 1992, were there bridges crossing the Sava River into

7 Croatia in the Posavina area, and if so, can you tell the Chamber how many

8 bridges there were, where they were?

9 A. There were bridges. I don't know how many bridges there were

10 exactly, but there was a bridge between Bosanski and Slavonski Samac.

11 There was another bridge connecting Bosanski and Slavonski Brod. There

12 was another bridge connecting Orasje and Zupanja. There was another

13 bridge connecting Brcko and Guna on the other bank of the river in

14 Croatia. There was also a bridge connecting Bosanska Gradiska, and I

15 don't know the place on the other bank of the river in Croatia. These

16 would be the bridges in the vicinity of Bosanski Samac, relatively

17 speaking.

18 MR. PANTELIC: May it be convenient for Trial Chamber to have a

19 map and then witness can go to the map? I mean local map of Bosanski

20 Samac and Posavina. It's just a suggestion, of course. I'm not pressing

21 that issue. Sorry.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm about to leave the topic.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think the Prosecution will be left to present

24 their case the way they see fit.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I was going to skim over this topic, and I've dealt

Page 1536

1 with it. I don't feel that it's necessary at this stage, if Your Honours

2 please, to make reference to any map. I may do so later.

3 JUDGE SINGH: I think this is the kind of information also perhaps

4 if you have it at your fingertips you can even suggest to him, because I'm

5 sure these are incontrovertible facts which can be found in any common

6 tourist book if you --

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

8 JUDGE SINGH: So I mean, subject of course to any objection that

9 might be raised, that might make the proceedings go a little faster.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm grateful to Your Honour for that

11 suggestion, but as I said I intend to leave -- unless the Chamber wants me

12 to re-go over this evidence and point out the areas on the map, I'm going

13 to leave the topic of geography and move on to another matter. Thank

14 you. I'm grateful to Your Honours for the suggestions made.

15 Q. Just going back to your personal background, were you ever a

16 member of the Communist Party in the former Yugoslavia?

17 A. Yes, I was a member of the League of Socialists of Yugoslavia

18 until 1989.

19 Q. When did you join?

20 A. In 1978.

21 Q. Were you a member of that -- of the League of Socialists as a

22 result of genuine belief or heart-felt belief, genuine political

23 commitment, or was there some other reason for your membership of that

24 organisation?

25 A. I think this was not a political belief or ideological belief. In

Page 1537

1 the political system as it was in the former Yugoslavia, it was a

2 necessity, a requirement, if you wanted to prosper in your job. And if

3 you wanted to get a job at all, you had to be a member.

4 Q. Did you eventually -- sorry, you left in 1989. Did you join any

5 other political party?

6 A. No, I did not join any other political party. And I have not been

7 a member of any political party ever since.

8 Q. There has been evidence in the case that there were democratic

9 elections in 1990 and nationalist parties emerged. Does that sit well

10 with your recollection of events?

11 A. As far as I can remember, at the municipal elections, six

12 political parties participated in the multi-party elections in the

13 territory of Bosanski Samac. Out of the six political parties, three were

14 nationalist or ethnically based. The remaining three political parties

15 were not ethnically based.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

17 MR. PANTELIC: Same story, like before, several days. The witness

18 said three parties were national, not nationalistic, and it appears in

19 row -- sorry, it's 21st, page 20 -- page 49, line 21, "nationalist," but

20 we just heard that he said "national parties," which is rather different.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Please clarify that with the witness, Mr. di Fazio.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. You heard that exchange. The parties that emerged, the HDZ, the

24 SDA, and the SDS, what were they, nationalistic parties or national

25 parties?

Page 1538

1 A. I think that at that stage, when they participated in the

2 elections in 1990, I think that in that context, those parties - we are

3 talking about the Serbian Democratic Party, the Party of Democratic

4 Action, and the Croatian Democratic Union - that at that time and in those

5 circumstances, those were ethnically based parties, not nationalist

6 parties.

7 Q. In the early stage of their development, those parties, did they

8 have a common agenda? By that, I don't necessarily mean an agreed agenda

9 but an agenda that included the same objectives.

10 A. It's hard to say whether the -- they had the same agenda in their

11 platforms. I did not read any of the platforms of any of the parties at

12 the time, but it was quite obvious that the three parties represented

13 themselves as parties that wanted to realise the interests of the ethnic

14 group they tried to represent. That's how I would put it. So one

15 represented the Serbian -- the interests of the Serbian, another of the

16 Croatian people, and the third of the Bosniak people. I cannot talk about

17 their platforms because I never read any of their platforms or, rather,

18 manifestos.

19 Q. Do you know if they took any position on the continued existence

20 of the Communist Party? If you don't know, just tell us.

21 A. Well, of course, they took a position regarding the party that was

22 in power before -- that is the Communist Party -- and the three parties

23 tried, through the elections that were held in -- at the time, they wanted

24 to take power, and that's what in effect happened.

25 Q. Thank you. You've mentioned elections at a municipal level. Were

Page 1539

1 there elections at a national level in Bosnia involving these three

2 parties?

3 A. Yes. The elections were held at the level of the Republic of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina in all the municipalities that existed at the

5 time. I think we are talking about 109 municipalities in the Republic of

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 Q. When were those elections held?

8 A. These elections, as far as I can recall, were held in late 1990.

9 I think it was in December.

10 Q. I want to ask you if you know the defendants in this case, and

11 I'll start with Mr. Simo Zaric. Do you know him?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

13 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, if the Prosecution would like to

14 proceed with the identification of the Defence, I would like now to have a

15 short recess of one and a half minutes and the witness will be brought out

16 of the courtroom and then, according to the order of this Trial Chamber,

17 to rearrange the position of the defendants that we have spoke about

18 several days before.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. di Fazio, you've heard that.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I have, and I've no objection to that, and if

21 it's --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So --

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If the Defence want to do that. Before we embark

24 on that exercise, I just point out that I'm now -- and for the purposes of

25 the Chamber and for the purposes of the Defence, I'm going to now turn to

Page 1540

1 this witness' knowledge of the defendants. That may impact on the matter

2 that I raised before the witness was called, namely, my ability to ...

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay, before you turn to the identification.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I just wonder if by eliciting that evidence,

5 evidence of what this witness knows of these defendants and their

6 backgrounds, whether that would be regarded as a controversial area by the

7 defendants and whether or not they would then regard the witnesses, so to

8 speak, off-limits to me.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you -- yes, okay. Before you do that --

10 JUDGE SINGH: But what is your objection to Defence counsel's

11 suggestion that --

12 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no objection.

13 JUDGE SINGH: That might help things.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes. I have no objection to the witness

15 briefly leaving.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: So we have the usher leading the witness out,

17 perhaps for as long as it will take to make the rearrangements, and then

18 the witness will be led back into the courtroom.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 MR. PANTELIC: Of course, Your Honours, I think that Mr. Milan

21 Simic should stay where he is because of his condition, but the other

22 three can be --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So you can ask them to rearrange the way you

24 would like them to be, without interfering with security arrangements, of

25 course. So why don't you -- Mr. Pantelic, you can make suggestions who

Page 1541

1 you want to sit where, without interfering with security.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you so much.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness can come back.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 MR. PANTELIC: I do like to apologise to the witness for this

6 inconvenience.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. I'm sure he understands.

8 Yes. The Prosecution can go ahead.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

10 Q. Mr. Lukac, I was asking you about Simo Zaric. Can you see him

11 anywhere in this Court? If you can, please point him out.

12 A. The gentleman sitting at this first desk here, wearing glasses, in

13 this first desk where the accused sit, I mean.

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 MR. DI FAZIO: I think, as my colleague Mr. Weiner points out, I

16 think the record should indicate that Mr. Simo Zaric has been identified.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MR. DI FAZIO:

19 Q. And my next question is: Do you know a gentleman named Milan

20 Simic?

21 A. That is the gentleman in the wheelchair.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

23 Perhaps the record could also show that there's a correct

24 identification there.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

Page 1542

1 MR. DI FAZIO:

2 Q. And what about Blagoje Simic? Can you assist us with him?

3 A. Mr. Blagoje Simic is sitting in the back row, and he has this

4 short beard.

5 Q. And what about Mr. Miroslav Tadic? Do you know him, and if so,

6 can you indicate him?

7 A. He is between Mr. Simic -- Blagoje Simic, and Mr. Milan Simic.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: And I think if the record could indicate that the

9 witness has correctly identified Mr. Tadic.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. In fact, all the accused persons have been --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Her Honour.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: All the accused persons have been identified by the

13 witness.

14 MR. DI FAZIO:

15 Q. Mr. Simo Zaric, how long have you known him?

16 A. Well, I've known Mr. Zaric since 1979.

17 Q. Where did you first meet him?

18 A. Bosanski Samac is a small town, and practically everybody knows

19 everybody in that town. And Mr. Zaric, as far as I can remember, at the

20 time was the manager of the furniture factory in Bosanski Samac.

21 Q. What's the name of the furniture factory?

22 A. It was Buducnost.

23 Q. When you met him, what was your occupation? What was your job at

24 the time?

25 A. At the time I was a political -- professional political advisor in

Page 1543

1 the Council of Social and Political Organisations in the municipality of

2 Bosanski Samac.

3 Q. Now, you've told us that you met him when he was working at

4 Buducnost. Did you know of him prior to that?

5 A. Yes. I had heard about him prior to that, but I did not know him

6 personally.

7 Q. Did you know what his occupation was prior to his working at

8 Buducnost?

9 A. I know that it was the secretary of the Secretariat of the

10 Interior of the municipality of Bosanski Samac before becoming the manager

11 of this furniture factory.

12 Q. Is there any simpler way of putting "secretary of the Secretariat

13 of the Interior of the municipality of Bosanski Samac"? What sort of

14 position is that in common parlance?

15 A. Yes. Simply, he was the chief of the SUP, chief of police.

16 Q. Thank you. I appreciate your attention to detail, but unless

17 specifically asked, I think when you're describing this position, if we

18 could just use "chief of police." It's a lot easier for us all.

19 Now, do you know what period of time he was chief of police, I

20 mean in the period of time prior to Buducnost?

21 A. I'm not quite sure, but between 1974 and 1978, I'd say. That was

22 the period. Within that time framework.

23 Q. Thank you. How long was he associated with Buducnost?

24 A. I think that Mr. Zaric was its manager between 1978 and sometime

25 in 1981, perhaps early 1982.

Page 1544

1 Q. Did he -- in carrying out his duties with Buducnost, did he remain

2 in Bosanski Samac throughout that period of time?

3 A. Well, he held -- he was the manager, yes, of that factory in

4 Bosanski Samac, and that is where he lived.

5 Q. Did he ever go to Belgrade?

6 A. And after that, Mr. Zaric, from the office of the manager of

7 Buducnost, moved over, I think, to the office of that same processing

8 industry in Belgrade, and I think that he spent about a year in that

9 office.

10 Q. And is it the case -- I just want to be clear. I'm not suggesting

11 that this is correct or not, but was the period of time that he was in

12 Belgrade sometime during that period between 1978 and 1981 or 1982? Was

13 it during that period of time that he was in Belgrade for a year, or was

14 it in some other period of time?

15 A. No. It was after 1981. So I think that it was 1982, most likely.

16 Q. Did he eventually return to Bosanski Samac?

17 A. He did, in '80 -- I think early 1983.

18 Q. What did he do upon his return to Bosanski Samac?

19 A. Upon his return, Mr. Zaric began to work for the State Security

20 Service in Doboj.

21 Q. I want you to explain to the Chamber what precisely the State

22 Security Service was in the former Yugoslavia.

23 A. I have never been on the staff of that service, but as I

24 understand it, this is the intelligence service, the Civilian Intelligence

25 Service in the former Yugoslavia. Civilian, I mean, because of course the

Page 1545

1 army had its own intelligence service, so there was a separate Military

2 Intelligence Service and this one was civilian.

3 Q. Did it, like the MUP or the SUP or the TO, have its own acronym?

4 A. Yes, SDB [Realtime transcript read in error "SDP"], which means

5 sluzba drzavne bezbednosti, State Security Service.

6 MR. PANTELIC: SDB, not "P." SDB. That would be correct.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm very grateful --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure the Prosecution has seen that.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm very grateful to my learned friend

10 for that illumination. Thank you.

11 Q. Now, as an intelligence service, what sort of brief did it have?

12 What sort of responsibilities did it carry out, as far as you're aware?

13 A. The service of that agency was engaged in the collection of

14 intelligence information about individuals and events that could

15 jeopardise the system of the then Yugoslavia, or rather, in the republics,

16 members of the former Yugoslavia.

17 Q. Did you ever have any professional dealings with the SDB as a

18 police officer? I'm not talking about Mr. Simo Zaric, but just generally,

19 did the police ever liaise or have any professional dealings?

20 A. Well, yes. There were contacts from time to time, but it happened

21 very seldom.

22 Q. Was there an exchange of information between the police and the

23 SDB?

24 A. Well, I wouldn't say so. That is, I wouldn't call it that. I

25 wouldn't call it exchange. Rather, I'd say that the SDB from time to time

Page 1546

1 used some information or some intelligence about individuals or events

2 obtained by the other police, by the public police.

3 Q. Do I take it from your answer that as far as the intelligence

4 flows were concerned, it was one-way traffic, police to SDB?

5 A. Precisely.

6 Q. Now, getting back to Mr. Simo Zaric. You said that he obtained a

7 position with the SDB. Where was he based?

8 A. In Doboj. Doboj is a town, a municipality. At that time, Doboj

9 was the regional centre at the time, covering the ten municipalities in

10 the area.

11 Q. Can I just ask to you pause there?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps at this stage it would be a good idea for

13 us to refer to the Times map, which is the large map behind me. If it

14 could be placed on the easel, it might make it easier for the rest -- the

15 remainder of this witness's evidence. And that map is Exhibit -- for the

16 purposes of the transcript, it's P15.

17 I'm sorry. The usher has produced a map of Bosanski Samac, but

18 the Times map of the former Yugoslavia, the large map of the former

19 Yugoslavia. Thank you. I'm grateful to the courtroom staff. Thank you.

20 Q. Can you just point out on the large map where Doboj is, please?

21 A. It's here.

22 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. And perhaps if you'd resume your

23 seat now.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: And could I also produce to the witness Exhibit

25 P12, which is a rough map of the municipality, and that could be placed on

Page 1547

1 the ELMO.

2 Q. And could you please point out to the Chamber where it appears on

3 that map so that they can see it -- the members of the Chamber can see it

4 in more perspective?

5 A. It's here.

6 Q. Thank you. Thank you. I have no further need of the map.

7 Now, you said that the -- he was based in Doboj. Did the SDB have

8 any headquarters in the region?

9 A. The SDB didn't have headquarters, it had a centre. That's what it

10 was called, the Centre of the State Security Service for the Region of

11 Doboj, with its seat in Doboj.

12 Q. Can you comment on the geographical structure of the SDB, if any?

13 A. You mean the organigram, how that service was organised in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 Q. No, just the -- let me withdraw the question. Let me ask you

16 this: Did the centre in Doboj cover a certain area?

17 A. Well, I said that this centre covered ten municipalities. The

18 centre also had its detached offices in these ten municipalities. So

19 that, for instance, for Bosanski Samac municipality, the seat of this

20 detached office was in the neighbouring municipality of Modrica, so that

21 this detached office covered three municipalities, the municipality -- the

22 Bosanski Samac and Modrica and Odzak, all three of them.

23 Q. Do you know precisely what Mr. Simo Zaric's role was in Doboj? If

24 you don't, say so.

25 A. I think that during his assignment in Doboj, he was an operative

Page 1548

1 officer, an agent of that service. And after that, I think sometime in

2 late 1985, he came to head this detached office in Modrica.

3 Q. How long did he remain in that position?

4 A. He remained in that position as the head of the detached office,

5 so from the time he took it up. And I think it was the latter half of

6 late 1985 until September or October 1991.

7 Q. What happened in September or October 1991?

8 A. As far as I know, Mr. Zaric was then retired. He retired.

9 Q. Throughout that period of time, the late 1980s and into September

10 or October of 1991, did he reside in Bosanski Samac or elsewhere?

11 A. He lived in Bosanski Samac and then commuted to Modrica, to the

12 adjacent municipality, because that is where his detached office was.

13 Q. May I ask you some questions about the man you've identified as

14 Blagoje Simic? How long have you known him?

15 A. I can't remember exactly when he started his physician's practice

16 in Bosanski Samac, but it could have been sometime in early -- in the

17 beginning of the 1990s. That is, I met him before the war. I've known

18 him before the war for some seven or eight years. That would be roughly

19 that period of time. And he worked as a physician in the health centre in

20 Bosanski Samac.

21 Q. I'm sorry. Before we continue with Mr. Blagoje Simic, I should

22 just briefly return to Mr. Simo Zaric. You've told us about his work.

23 Did you ever have any social contact with him at all? Anything at all?

24 A. Possibly, but I really can't remember.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you. And now if we can return to Mr. Blagoje Simic.

Page 1549

1 In the seven or eight years that you knew him, what was the nature of your

2 relationship? Was it professional? Were you friends? How would you

3 describe it?

4 A. Well, we lived in the same town, so we knew one another. We were

5 acquaintances there. On the other hand, possibly within the framework of

6 my work, I may have contacted with him because he was a physician in the

7 health centre.

8 Q. Were you aware of his undertaking any political activities?

9 A. As far as I can remember, at that time, Mr. Blagoje Simic was not

10 politically active.

11 Q. And what about after that time?

12 A. I think he began in 1990 when the Serb Democratic Party was

13 formed. And as far as I know, he was elected the president of that party

14 for Bosanski Samac, and I believe that his political activity, political

15 commitment, began then.

16 Q. I want to ask you a general question. Did your activities as

17 police chief ever bring you into contact with him as a result of his

18 political connections, political activities? For example, did you attend

19 meetings, that sort of thing?

20 A. I think that we both attended the same meeting three or four

21 times. Different roles: I would be representing police at those

22 meetings, and Mr. Simic as the president of that party and later on as the

23 Vice-President of the Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Samac, because after

24 the multi-party elections, Mr. Blagoje Simic was appointed the

25 Vice-President of the Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Samac, as far as I

Page 1550

1 remember. It was not a professional assignment. He was a volunteer.

2 Q. Have you any idea about when he received that appointment?

3 A. He was appointed after the multi-party elections and after the new

4 Municipal Assembly was formed, so that should be the beginning of 1991.

5 As far as I've said, as my -- if my memory serves me well, because, after

6 all, it was ten years ago.

7 Q. Did he retain that position in April of 1992? Did he still have

8 that position?

9 A. Yes, he did.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I note the time. Do you

11 wish me to proceed, or would this be an appropriate moment to --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, this is the appropriate moment to break and

13 adjourn the proceedings to Monday, at 9.30 hours. I do hope that by next

14 week we shall have the facilities required by Mr. Milan Simic so that we

15 can use the afternoons as well so that the trial can move much faster.

16 Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

17 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, if I may, just a short issue,

18 actually a little issue. We have requested from the Registry to be

19 provided and supplied by the copies of audiotapes and videotapes of the

20 proceedings, and our basis was we have to give our observation to the

21 transcript in a week or eight days - I don't know. We cannot act without

22 these things. We cannot simply read the rough version of the transcript

23 and then to give our objections or submissions.

24 With regard to the videotapes, the Defence has certain, I would

25 say, methods for - based on the science, of course, forensic science -

Page 1551

1 with regard to the analysis of the witness behaviour, or witness behaviour

2 before the Court, and then we are trying to establish certain standards,

3 whether the witness is speaking true or not, et cetera. And we have been

4 informed by Mr. Marc Dubuisson that we cannot be provided with videotapes,

5 which is really surprising me because these are the open sessions, nothing

6 to hide. These sessions are broadcasting to various countries and

7 systems, and really I'm a little bit surprised. And we as Defence are

8 blocked now, because it was almost two weeks that we are in all these

9 proceedings and we do not have any audio or videotape, and we are in

10 problem because this burden will be getting more and more each day.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

12 MR. PANTELIC: So I kindly ask - and I can even formulate my

13 motion or application to this Trial Chamber - that the Registry or Court

14 Management be directed to provide us all this materials, of course subject

15 to all restrictions or other terms, of course. I don't know what is the

16 situation here. Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber will be able to ask the Registrar

18 and will be able to find out what the problem is or whether facilities can

19 be made available, and then the Trial Chamber will be able to inform the

20 Defence counsel.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me, Your Honours, for raising this issue,

22 because we filed our application and it was denied. It was refused.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: By the Registrar?

24 MR. PANTELIC: By the Registrar, by Mr. Dubuisson, or I don't know

25 who is in charge. It was refused, and now I'm getting to the upper

Page 1552

1 levels. That's a matter of our proceedings.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: So you're in fact appealing against that refusal?

3 MR. PANTELIC: That would be the case, of course, in the interests

4 of justice, for the Article 20, 21 of the Statute, rights of the

5 defendants, European Convention of Human Rights, et cetera, et cetera, all

6 these general principles of law. Thank you so much.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber was just discussing the

9 matter. We will find out from the Registry and also with the Prosecution,

10 and we will be able to give an answer probably before the end of next

11 week.

12 MR. PANTELIC: I'm much obliged, Your Honours. Thank you.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other matters?

14 The proceedings will adjourn, and we will continue on Monday at

15 9.30 a.m.. The Court will rise.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

17 5.52 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

18 the 24th day of September, 2001 at 9.30 a.m.

19

20

21

22

23

24

25