1 Tuesday, 25 September 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. The registrar please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav
9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
11 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President. Excuse me, before we start today,
12 I would like to bring to the attention of this Honourable Trial Chamber
13 the situation about the briefcase of my client, was not with him this
14 morning, and the security officer gave him his personal briefcase with
15 personal notes and attorney/client-privileged documents only twenty
16 minutes after. I don't want to be paranoic, but I have some doubts that
17 maybe this materials in this briefcase might be discovered to anyone in
18 the process of checking of documents, of the content of the briefcase, et
19 cetera so I would like -- I kindly can ask that for future situations, his
20 briefcase will be always with him or with the officer who is accompany --
21 who is escort him, because I really don't want to be in some situations to
22 think whether there is some misuse. So it's just for the note of this
23 Trial Chamber. Thank you so much.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I'm sure the registrar will look into
25 that matter and make sure that the briefcase is always within sight of the
2 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: I appreciate your concern. Of course, sometimes you
4 have confidential documents.
5 MR. PANTELIC: Always. Always, because we have materials for
6 the -- you know, following the witness statement, then some notes, et
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
9 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you very much.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution -- I see another Defence counsel.
12 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour. Just a quick
13 comment before we continue. This morning before the hearing, we received
14 a document from the Prosecution. It is unsigned, undated, and also we
15 don't know when it was received by the OTP. As you understand, three
16 Defences, Miroslav Simic [sic], Simo Zaric, and Miroslav Tadic have the
17 Rule 66 working, and regardless of whether this document will be tendered
18 or not, we would like to know why this document was discovered to us five
19 years into the proceedings. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, can we have the answer or the
21 explanation to the document?
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please, my colleague
23 Ms. Reidy has been dealing with this issue, and she will address the
24 Chamber on this specific issue just raised by Mr. Lukic.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
1 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honours. As you're aware, the obligation
2 for disclosure under Rule 66 and 68 is ongoing for both parties. This is
3 a document which turned up at the end of last week in the B/C/S version.
4 We made a search for it. I found there was a translation of it. The
5 version that we have and that I came across is an unsigned, undated
6 document which we have no intention of trying to use in evidence because
7 we have no way of authenticating its origins. And as matter of ongoing
8 disclosure, I simply disclosed it to the Defence this morning at the
9 earliest possible opportunity, and it's as simple as that.
10 There's no other sinister reason as to why this morning the
11 Defence have it. And they've also actually advised me that this document
12 was in fact disclosed to us by one of the Defence attorneys earlier and
13 they've already seen the document. They know of the document's
14 existence. And as I said, today was the first opportunity that this trial
15 team personally had to ensure that it had -- that it was disclosed to
16 Defence. It may even be a double disclosure. And it was a matter of
17 precaution that was disclosed this morning.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Defence counsel, that's the explanation for
19 from the Prosecution. Is it accepted?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is acceptable in -- this was
21 just out of precaution. And should either of the parties decide to tender
22 it, we can then state our positions on that.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The Prosecution is continuing.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, may I tend to some
25 evidentiary matters before proceeding? And they involve the evidence of
1 this witness. Firstly, I understand that the Chamber would like to have
2 A3-size or small-size prints of this map, Exhibit P9, showing -- depicting
3 the area around Bosanski Samac such that the witness can indicate the
4 checkpoints that he referred to yesterday on that. We don't have colour
5 prints. We do have black and white prints which I think are serviceable
6 enough for this purpose. So if it's okay, if it's acceptable to the
7 Chamber, I'll ask this witness to mark on this smaller black-and-white
8 version of P9 and introduce that into evidence, and in the future, I'll
9 have colour copies of a small size that can be used on the ELMO and marked
10 by each witness if they refer to it. Is that proposal acceptable?
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is acceptable. And once the witness has
12 marked it and then copies can be made out so that all the parties can have
13 a similar document.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you very much. I'll do that shortly,
16 The other matter is this: There is a -- in the list of the
17 Prosecution exhibits, there were two videos that the Prosecution did not
18 propose to lead evidence of. One of them is called -- is listed as
19 Exhibit V4. It's a video that was made on the 26th of January, 1995, and
20 it shows the area around Bosanski Samac. It's a long video. At the time
21 that I indicated on this that I wouldn't produce it in evidence, it seemed
22 to me at that time that it really just performed essentially the same
23 function as the photographs, and so for that reason, I didn't think it
24 would be useful. However, my colleague Mr. Weiner, who is not here at the
25 moment, has prepared an extract from that, which is only 12 minutes long,
1 and which shows certain features of Bosanski Samac, certain features
2 around Crkvina and certain features inside the police station, right
3 inside the police station, various rooms and so on, that the
4 photographs -- in fact it's that latter feature, depiction of the
5 interior of the police station that I suggest would be of assistance to
6 the Tribunal. And we are not going to impose an hour-long video, whatever
7 its length. As it was substantial length, it's been reduced to about 12
9 I would propose -- it's being created and formed and made as we
10 speak and should be available towards the end of today and certainly by
11 tomorrow morning. So I just want to provide notice to the Tribunal and to
12 my learned friends that I will be seeking to introduce into evidence a
13 small extract from V4.
14 This issue arose in a similar sort of fashion the other day when I
15 sought to introduce the memoirs of Mr. Tihic. At that time, the Chamber
16 commented that -- "Why not use extracts if there are specific items that
17 you wish to use?" And that's precisely what I've done here -- or
18 Mr. Weiner has done, I should say. So I don't propose to argue the matter
19 now if it's convenient to the Chamber. And there may not be objections -
20 I don't know - but I just wanted to provide notice to my learned friends
21 that that's what I will be applying to do later in this witness's
23 JUDGE MUMBA: What I haven't got clearly from you is whether this
24 extract is from the original made in 1995 or you are making out a fresh
25 one just depicting certain parts of the 1995 one.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: It's extracts from the video that was made on the
2 26th of January, 1995.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So you are creating a new one.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: A new one containing segments that were --
5 JUDGE MUMBA: From the 1995 one.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: From 1995, and it amounts to around 12 minutes, 12
7 minutes worth of material. And I haven't given you a full list of what it
8 will show, but they are the essential features, Crkvina, the crossroads at
9 Crkvina, a warehouse at Crkvina where we say a massacre occurred, and the
10 interior of the SUP, the police building.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: What will be the title? What title are you giving
13 MR. DI FAZIO: We could essentially give it a title perhaps the
14 same as V4, or with a slight variation, perhaps extract of -- from
15 Bosanski Samac from -- extract of video.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps when it's made, you can look at it and then
17 see what official title you need. We said we would like to have sharp,
18 short titles for the exhibits.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: That's not a problem. I can easily provide a title
20 to the Chamber.
21 JUDGE SINGH: Perhaps I might be a little bit of a help. I think
22 to begin with, you'll have to put the original video in as an exhibit and
23 mark that whatever number. And then the extracts, perhaps you can call
24 that a little version of whatever exhibit the original lists.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm quite happy to do that if that would be --
1 JUDGE SINGH: So that if the original is of any help to the
2 Defence, they can use that.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly. I understand Your Honour's point. It
4 would provide them with a context to see the extracts in. Otherwise, they
5 may not be able to cross-examine on it. So --
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I wanted to hear from the Defence with that
7 proposal, with the addition of what Judge Singh has suggested.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, with all due respect, we have already
9 raised this matter once concerning the admissibility of the evidence which
10 have been withdrawn within the -- this document, of the link of the
11 indictment to the evidence document. And I wouldn't like to repeat myself
12 or -- on behalf of the Defence. The objection stays the same. My
13 objection was, again, that it wouldn't be admissible, according to the
14 Defence position, to have a completely new tape. But as Honourable Judge
15 Singh suggested, I believe we can accept that. But we would like to have
16 an edited version which Prosecutor is intending to show beforehand, at
17 least 24 hours, so we can review it and make sure that it really
18 corresponds to the original.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. On your other -- on your original objection of
20 having evidential material which was not --
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Which was withdrawn?
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, which was removed from the list and then taken
23 back, this is slightly different, in the sense that, if I understand the
24 Prosecution correctly, it is merely showing geographical features of the
25 area, and with the caution that you will view it before it is tendered,
1 then you will be able to say whether or not that is correct, these are the
2 geographical features of the area being discussed.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: I agree with you, Your Honour, 100 per cent. But in
4 my understanding, it is not just the geographical overview of the
5 municipality of Bosanski Samac but maybe some other things, because the
6 Prosecutor said that they will edit the tape. So thank you very much.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: So you'll be able to view it before it is
9 MR. ZECEVIC: That was my request, yes. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. di Fazio, you have heard. You have
11 understood it has to be viewed by Defence counsels before it can be
12 referred to by your witness.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you. Well that can be done. That can
14 be done overnight. There is no reason why --
15 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. di Fazio, just one more question. You didn't
16 give the length of the original. What is the length of the original
18 MR. DI FAZIO: As I stand here, I can't -- I just don't know. I
19 have viewed it in the past, and I can tell you that its long. Oh, thank
20 you. I'm grateful to my colleagues. They've indicated it's 90 minutes.
21 The reason I didn't use it is that it shows long, protracted,
22 drawn-out scenes of corridors and rooms and so on that would have been,
23 frankly, I think a waste of time just to watch it, and so the reason I've
24 done this is to extract what I think, from the Prosecution's view, are the
25 essential points.
1 Just one general comment on admissibility. The question of
2 prejudice and usefulness of the item is -- I submit, should be paramount
3 in the Chamber's mind. In terms of prejudice, there can be none. The
4 document -- sorry, the video was disclosed and provided to the Defence in
5 February of 1999, 23rd of February, 1999. So they've had it now for
7 From the point of view of assistance, well, I've already made it
8 clear in what respects I suggest the video is of assistance. It shows
9 extra details that the photographs can't really provide to you, and they
10 are the two principal bases on which I submit that it should be
12 JUDGE MUMBA: I think the point the Defence is making in having
13 exhibits withdrawn and then reintroduced is that it interferes with the
14 plan and the preparation of the Defence case for their clients. I'm sure
15 you appreciate that, Mr. di Fazio, when you are an experienced counsel and
16 you keep having this and that withdrawn and then reintroduced during the
17 trial. It's a bit disturbing.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: I appreciate that, but of course this is not in the
19 nature of some fresh document or a fresh witness.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: No. No, that's not the point. That's the point I'm
21 making. We understand you did make the disclosure sometime back, but it
22 disturbs the Defence's planning in the preparation of their defence, and
23 also it introduces some unacceptable strategy by the Prosecution to take
24 the Defence by surprise, take them back and then -- you know that most --
25 the majority of these Defence counsel don't live here, and sometimes their
1 investigators are in the field or the people they think they can interview
2 for purposes of preparing their defence.
3 In the case of each particular material evidence that the
4 Prosecution produces, it may not be readily available for them. So I
5 think it's important for the Prosecution to bear that in mind. It's not
6 the question of having disclosed previously, no. It's the question of
7 proper planning for the preparation of the Defence case. And when you
8 look at the rights of the accused persons as provided for under the
9 Statute, I think the point made by the Defence is very important.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I fully -- I hear what Your Honour says, and
11 I fully accept that, and it's something that the Prosecution obviously
12 will seek to avoid.
13 My answer to the Tribunal on that issue, though, would simply be
14 this: It's not just a matter of saying, "Well, this inconveniences us."
15 There has been no indication from them in what respect they're
16 inconvenienced. And furthermore, the nature of the specific item that is
17 being sought to be introduced is one that, in the Prosecution view, can be
18 nothing other than helpful both to the Trial Chamber and to the Defence,
19 because it shows physical structures that witnesses have been speaking
20 about. That's as far as I can take the point.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think even if the Defence do not state in
22 which manner the inconvenience may arise, I think the Trial Chamber has a
23 right in controlling the trial, making sure that the rights of the accused
24 persons are complied with.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Absolutely no question about that, of course,
1 if Your Honours please.
2 If Your Honours please, there's one last matter, and that's just a
3 matter of protocol, I suppose. I'm given to understand that one of the
4 investigators in our case proposes to dine this evening with the witness.
5 I understand it's to be a social occasion, purely a social occasion, and
6 no -- not -- the case is not to be discussed. It's not a work occasion.
7 So I just thought I'd place my learned friends and the Chamber on notice
8 of that.
9 I understand there should be no -- the investigator was once on
10 the list of witnesses but was removed by -- at the pre-trial conference as
11 a witness in the case. It's not proposed to call him as a witness in the
12 case, and I just thought I should mention that. If anyone's got any views
13 about that, then now would be the time to express them, rather than after
14 the event.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me ask the Defence.
16 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, in principle, I think I'm speaking
17 about [indiscernible]. We don't have a problem. We don't have objections
18 to that. Also, we would like to know -- I mean, on an unofficial basis,
19 what is the name of this restaurant so that we can avoid this restaurant
20 tonight, I mean, not to interfere with it. Thank you so much.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. di Fazio, the name of the --
22 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't know. I'm sorry -- oh, the name of the
23 investigator is Mr. Yves Roy, R-o-y. Yves, Y-v-e-s, Roy. And I don't
24 know the name of the restaurant, I'm afraid.
25 MR. PANTELIC: It probably would be a French restaurant, I
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you. The point is taken. The
3 Prosecution can continue.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
5 WITNESS: DRAGAN LUKAC [Resumed]
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]
8 Q. Mr. Lukac, can you look at what I think everyone can agree is a
9 black-and-white version of the large map standing behind you, Exhibit P9.
10 Is that the same map as P9?
11 A. Yes, it is the same.
12 Q. Just using this pink marker pen that the usher will provide you
13 that I have here, could you just indicate with two pink dots the location
14 of the checkpoints on that particular map, the checkpoints that you
15 discussed yesterday.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thank you. As long as it's visible on the paper map itself,
18 that's all that's important. Thank you.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: And I seek to tender that into evidence.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a number of that version of P9, please?
21 THE REGISTRAR: This version of Exhibit P9 shall be marked for the
22 record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P9A.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Should we include something in the title for the
24 sake of ease at a later time? For example, indicating the --
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Checkpoints?
1 MR. DI FAZIO: -- checkpoints -- indicating checkpoints --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Discussed by mister -- the name of the witness.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: -- discussed by Mr. Dragan Lukac. Yes. Thank
5 Q. Mr. Lukac, yesterday we were discussing the events leading up to
6 the 16th and 17th of April and meetings that might have occurred in that
7 week, and you told us about a meeting involving the appointment of
8 Mr. Fitozovic as head of the new Territorial Defence. Was anyone else
9 appointed apart from him to senior positions in the new TO?
10 A. Yes. That is, at this meeting they were not appointed to these
11 duties. They were just proposed. So the commander of the Territorial
12 Defence was Mr. Marko Bozanovic, which is the top position in the
13 Territorial Defence. And the second, that is, the chief of the
14 Territorial Defence, the proposed person was Mr. Fitozovic. And the two
15 of them were appointed by the republican secretariat of the Territorial
16 Defence on the following day.
17 Q. In effect, official --
18 A. 14 April.
19 Q. Was that official confirmation of their position?
20 A. Yes. Yes. On the 14th, they were officially appointed to those
22 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of any other meetings of significance
23 having occurred in the municipality on the same day?
24 A. I did not know about it at that time. Later on, I received
25 information that on the same day, in the morning, another meeting was
1 held. A very important meeting, I think I can say. According to my
2 knowledge, it was held at the office of the President of Bosanski Samac
3 municipality, Mr. Mate Nujic.
4 Q. Thank you. Could I just ask you to pause there. I want you to
5 explain to the Chamber what your source of knowledge is, how you came to
6 find out about this meeting.
7 A. I received this information, while I was detained, from Mr. Franjo
8 Barukcic, who attended that meeting on 13th of April, 1992.
9 Q. Who is Mr. Franjo Barukcic? Incidentally, just pronounce the name
10 carefully so the interpreters can get it clearly. Is his surname
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Now, who is Mr. Franjo Barukcic?
14 A. Franjo Barukcic was from Bosanski Samac and before the war was a
15 member of the municipal board of the HDZ for Bosanski Samac.
16 Q. And approximately how long after this, the 13th of April, did he
17 pass this information on to you? I know you were in custody, but how
18 long? A matter of months, weeks, days?
19 A. No. This was, let's say, three or four months later. In July or
20 August 1992.
21 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can you now tell the Chamber of how you
22 know of that meeting based on the information that you had received?
23 A. On the basis of this information, that is to say, on the 13th of
24 April, 1992, in the office of Mr. Mate Nujic, President of the Municipal
25 Assembly of Bosanski Samac, at the request of the Serb Democratic Party,
1 specifically at the request of Mr. Blagoje Simic, a meeting was held of
2 the representatives of political parties and of the municipalities of
3 Samac, Orasje, Gradacac, and Odzak. These are the four neighbouring
4 municipalities in the area.
5 At this meeting, Mr. Blagoje Simic, who then held the position of
6 the president of the Serb Democratic Party for Bosanski Samac -- and I
7 already mentioned this. He was vice-president of the Municipal Assembly
8 of Bosanski Samac. He informed all that were present that the Serb
9 municipality of Bosanski Samac would start to function. He informed all
10 the people who were present there what was the territory of the Serb
11 municipality of Samac.
12 Bearing in mind the fact that in this area that was defined by
13 Mr. Blagoje Simic as the territory of the Serb municipality of Bosanski
14 Samac, included most of the settled areas where Croats and Muslims lived,
15 the representatives of the Croat people who were present at this meeting
16 asked what would happen with the Croats or Bosniaks who remained in the
17 area. He then said that they should move out of that area. After that,
18 the same person said to all who were present that they had a deadline of
19 seven days to state their views on the proposal that he had presented. In
20 my opinion, these are the key elements in relation to this particular
22 Q. You've said that you obtained information about this meeting from
23 Mr. Franjo Barukcic. Did you ever obtain information about it from anyone
24 else, or was that your only source?
25 A. After I got out during the war and after the war, when I talked to
1 some other people who had also been present at this meeting, I had all of
2 this information confirmed; that is to say, that it is correct.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, still on the theme of meetings, did you attend
4 any other meetings in the days leading up to and/or including the 16th of
5 April, 1992?
6 A. On the 16th of April, 1992, there was a meeting at the level of
7 the town of Bosanski Samac, the local commune. This meeting was attended
8 by representatives of certain political parties, from the territory of the
9 municipality of Bosanski Samac and the representatives of the local
10 commune of the town of Bosanski Samac.
11 Q. Did you attend the meeting?
12 A. I attended the meeting as the acting chief of the police station
13 in Bosanski Samac.
14 Q. Were any of the defendants present?
15 A. Out of the defendants, Mr. Simo Zaric was present at this meeting,
16 as well as his lawyer here, Mr. Pisarevic.
17 Q. In what capacity were they attending? In other words,
18 representatives of what? Themselves or an organisation or --
19 A. Sir, Simo Zaric was present at the meeting as the representative
20 of the 4th Detachment, and Mr. Pisarevic was present as the representative
21 of the Socialist Democratic Party for the municipality of Bosanski Samac.
22 Q. Was the meeting in the evening?
23 A. The meeting was supposed to start, as far as I can remember, at
24 5.30 p.m. However, it was postponed until 6.30 p.m. It was said that
25 Mr. Zaric was attending a meeting at Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic's and that
1 his return had to be awaited.
2 Q. Did the newly formed TO have any representation at this meeting?
3 A. This meeting was attended by Mr. Marko Bozanovic, Commander of the
4 newly established Territorial Defence, and Mr. Alija Fitozovic, Chief of
5 Staff of the Territorial Defence.
6 Q. Was this an extraordinary meeting, in the sense of an unusual or
7 isolated meeting, or was it part of a similar series of meetings?
8 A. This was one of a series of meetings of this kind, and that had
9 been held over the past month at the level of the municipality of Bosanski
11 Q. What had been --
12 A. Local commune of Bosanski Samac.
13 Q. What had been the purpose of this series of meetings?
14 A. The purpose of this series of meetings was discussing the
15 situation related to security in Bosanski Samac and agreements related to
16 how possible incidents would be resolved.
17 Q. What topics were discussed at this meeting on the 16th?
18 A. At that meeting on the 16th of April, there was a dialogue
19 predominantly between Mr. Zaric, as a representative of the 4th
20 Detachment, and the Commander and Chief of Staff of the Territorial
21 Defence. The Commander of the Territorial Defence, Mr. Bozanovic,
22 informed the persons present at this meeting of the purpose and intent for
23 which the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina was established. This
24 same person at a given point in time suggested to Mr. Zaric that the 4th
25 Detachment be included in the Territorial Defence of Bosanski Samac.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 Q. How was that proposal met?
2 A. Mr. Zaric refused that proposal and he said that the 4th
3 Detachment is a JNA unit and that it cannot be within the Territorial
5 Q. Did anyone seek to counter his argument?
6 A. I can't remember all these details, but I think that after that,
7 there was no further discussion with regard to that particular matter.
8 Q. Did the meeting end with no resolution of that particular issue,
9 as to whether or not the 4th Detachment should be incorporated within the
10 Territorial Defence?
11 A. No resolutions or conclusions were adopted at this meeting. This
12 meeting was intended to have information exchanged. The meeting ended at
13 ten past 9.00 in the evening.
14 Q. By this stage, you had, I think, been appointed as acting chief of
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you have anything to do with the fixing of schedules of
18 policemen around the town that night; in other words, who should be
19 working, where they should be working, what duties they should be carrying
21 A. I personally made the schedule for policemen or, rather, the
22 duties that they would be carrying out within 24-hour periods.
23 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what the strength of police was in the
24 town of Bosanski Samac that night? I don't want you to go into it chapter
25 and verse but just give a broad outline of how many police there were,
1 where they were mainly stationed.
2 A. As for the town of Bosanski Samac, during the night between the
3 16th and the 17th of April, 1992, on the shift between 2200 hours and 0600
4 hours, the policemen were working in the following way: In the police
5 station, actually in the building itself, there was a duty policeman.
6 Also, in the police building, there was a duty policeman at the
7 communications centre.
8 In terms of outside security, that is to say, guarding the
9 building of the police station itself, there were three policemen involved
10 in that. Ten policemen were guarding the bridge on the Sava River. As
11 for the bridge between Bosanski Samac and Prud on the Bosna River, there
12 were four policemen guarding it. In town, there was a mobile police
13 patrol that had a vehicle, and there were two policemen in the vehicle.
14 As for persons in higher positions, the deputy commander of the reserve
15 police force station in Bosanski Samac was on duty that night, and his
16 name is Mr. Namik Suljik. That was the police force engaged in the town
17 of Bosanski Samac during the night between the 16th and 17th of April,
19 I wish to point out one more thing: The persons I mentioned or,
20 rather, the number of people and their actual assignments that I mentioned
21 for that night was typical of any night, say a month or two before the war
22 broke out.
23 Q. Did the TO have any presence in the town that night? Guards, I
25 A. That night, as far as I know, that was practically the second
1 night since the Territorial Defence had been established, in the
2 waterworks building at Bosanski Samac, and this building is in the
3 immediate vicinity of the police station or, rather, the Territorial
4 Defence staff building. A certain number of members of the Territorial
5 Defence were supposed to be present there that night with a view to
6 providing physical security for Territorial Defence facilities. According
7 to the information I received after these events, I think that these
8 people were not in this particular facility that night.
9 Q. Thank you. The meeting ended at ten past 9.00, you say. What did
10 you do once it ended?
11 A. When this meeting ended, the Commander of the Territorial Defence,
12 Mr. Bozanovic, asked me for a police patrol that would escort him to his
13 house, because he lived in a village, specifically in Novo Selo in the
14 territory of the municipality of Bosanski Samac. That is here.
15 Q. Can you just indicate it again so that the Chamber can see it?
16 A. It's this village here.
17 Q. You've marked there -- that's approximately southwest of Bosanski
18 Samac, clearly depicted by its name. And about how far is it from the
19 town itself?
20 A. This is not southwest. It is southeast of Bosanski Samac.
21 Q. Oh, yes. I'm sorry. You're quite right.
22 A. It is between four and five kilometres away.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. The reason why he asked for this was that he told me that since he
25 had just been appointed to that position and since he had to pass through
1 a JNA checkpoint, the one at Srpska Tisina that I mentioned a while ago,
2 because he took this road home, he was afraid that he would be stopped by
3 these members of the JNA at that checkpoint.
4 Q. Thank you. I'd like to produce to you another black-and-white
5 version of the map that you've just referred to. I'll give you the pink
6 marker. Could you please indicate on this the route that you took from
7 Bosanski Samac to -- with Mr. Bozanovic, please? Just mark it?
8 A. [marks]
9 Q. Thank you. Just keep that item of evidence there for the moment.
10 I'll refer to it again shortly. Thank you. Right.
11 Did you provide the escort?
12 A. I already said that the meeting ended at 2110, and it might have
13 been around 2120 by then, and that is when the policemen on duty start
14 taking over different shifts. I already mentioned that these shifts take
15 place at 2200 hours, and I said that I would personally escort him because
16 I was there any way with the vehicle. And I did that.
17 Q. Where did you drop him off?
18 A. I dropped him off in this village, Hrvatska Tisina, somewhere
19 here, here at this location; that is to say, after we passed the
20 checkpoint, perhaps two kilometres later. I went back because there was
21 no need for me to escort him any longer. It's around here.
22 Q. Sorry, can you just indicate that again, please?
23 A. I escorted him to about here.
24 Q. Thank you. But you've indicated on the map that the pink line
25 extends a bit further. Did you drive on from that point?
1 A. No. From here, I drove back to Bosanski Samac, whereas he
2 proceeded home by himself.
3 Q. Oh, I see. I just want to be clear about what the pink line
4 represents. Is that the route that you both took up to Tisina, and then
5 he continued by himself?
6 A. That's right. That's right, to his house.
7 Q. So the latter half of the pink line that you've indicated is a
8 trip that you assume he took by himself after you dropped him off; is that
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. di Fazio, just put that map on the record.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Into evidence, yes. Thank you. If it could be
15 THE REGISTRAR: This map indicating the route taken by Dragan
16 Lukic from Bosanski Samac shall be marked for the record as Prosecutor's
17 Exhibit P9B.
18 MR. DI FAZIO:
19 Q. On the way back, did you see any soldiers?
20 A. I think that first of all, it is important to point out that when
21 escorting Mr. Bozanovic, as we were crossing this road at Srpska Tisina,
22 there was not a single soldier there, which was highly unusual, but there
23 were roadblocks on the road anyway, the ones they usually used to stop
24 vehicles. I found this very strange. At that moment, I thought that
25 perhaps the soldiers were having dinner at a restaurant which is just by
1 this checkpoint and on the left-hand side of the road. However, since
2 there is no light in this area, I did not see them there. However, on my
3 way back, I noticed something else.
4 Q. Tell us about that.
5 A. On my way back from this checkpoint, onwards towards Hrvatska
6 Tisina, perhaps 300 metres after the checkpoint, I encountered a soldier
7 who was wearing a JNA uniform. The thing that struck me was the white
8 ribbon that he had tied to the epaulette on the left shoulder, I think, of
9 his uniform.
10 When I got up to the main road and started going towards Bosanski
11 Samac, again after 200 or 300 metres I encountered yet another soldier who
12 was going in the same direction on foot. This soldier also wore a JNA
13 uniform and also had this white ribbon tied on the epaulette of his
15 Q. What -- why did you take particular notice of the white ribbon?
16 A. I noticed this white ribbon because at the very same moment, it
17 made me think of the members of the JNA that I saw on television when
18 Vukovar was occupied. They also wore these white ribbons on the
19 epaulettes of their uniforms, and that is why this struck me to such an
21 Q. It was night-time. How could you see the white ribbon?
22 A. I saw it because of the lights of the car that I was driving.
23 Q. Where did you go once you arrived in Bosanski Samac?
24 A. Before I went to see Mr. Bozanovic off after this meeting in
25 Bosanski Samac, I had agreed with Mr. Sulejman Tihic - that's the witness
1 who was here before me - and Mr. Izet Izetbegovic that we should meet in a
2 restaurant called Rustika when I come back, that we should meet for
3 dinner. So after returning, I went to that restaurant.
4 Q. What did you discuss?
5 A. I came to this restaurant perhaps at twenty to 10.00 or fifteen to
6 10.00. When I came there, I informed them about what I had perceived;
7 namely, these soldiers with the white ribbons. The two of them did not
8 have any particular reaction to this observation of mine.
9 After that, we found out from the waiter or, rather, the waitress
10 who was working there that their kitchen was no longer open because it was
11 late, so we gave up on having dinner there. After that, I went to the
12 police station.
13 Q. What did you do there?
14 A. I arrived at the police station at 2205. I went there in order to
15 receive information from the duty policeman about whether all the assigned
16 policemen went to where they were supposed to go, and also to get more
17 information regarding the security situation in the territory of the
19 Q. Did you do anything about the men with the white ribbons? The
20 soldiers with the white ribbons, I should say.
21 A. The duty policeman at the police station at that time was Mr. Luka
22 Gregurevic. That's a policeman with many years of police service. When I
23 arrived in the office of the duty policeman, I told him about my
24 observation; that is to say, the fact that I saw these soldiers with white
25 ribbons. He suggested to me then that he call the command of the
1 4th Detachment in Bosanski Samac and that we ask them whether they have
2 any information with regard to army movements and in relation to what I
3 had observed. I agreed with that, and the duty policeman telephoned the
4 command. Mr. Simo Zaric answered the call. After Mr. Zaric answered the
5 phone, the duty policeman gave me the receiver and then I talked to
6 Mr. Zaric.
7 Q. What did you say to him?
8 A. I told him that we had information that in the village of Srpska
9 Tisina, some soldiers with -- wearing JNA uniforms and white ribbons had
10 been observed. I did not tell him that it was I who observed. I just
11 said the police had such information. And I asked him whether he knew
12 anything about that.
13 Q. Just pause there. The phone call that you made was presumably
14 well after ten past 9.00, because that's when the meeting finished, and
15 you'd had time to go to Srpska Tisina, you had time to drive back, you had
16 time to go to the restaurant for dinner. So about what time would you say
17 the phone call was made to Mr. Zaric?
18 A. The call could have been made about 2210.
19 Q. Where? To where was the call made? You mentioned earlier in your
20 evidence that it was made to the command of the 4th Detachment. Was that
21 where the phone call was made; in other words, directed to the place?
22 A. The policeman on duty called the command post of the
23 4th Detachment, which should have been the location which we have
24 described yesterday, and that is the Samac textile industry facility in
25 Bosanski Samac.
1 Q. The building across the road from Cafe AS.
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. And so Mr. Zaric was working late that night, because he answered
4 phone; is that correct?
5 A. Because he picked up the phone, I assumed that he went there after
6 the meeting which we had, that he went to the 4th Detachment command.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I see the Defence counsel on his feet.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, we have to object to this kind of
9 questioning the witness. These are questions for cross-examination and
10 not for examination-in-chief, particularly the last one.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Which --
12 MR. DI FAZIO: I'd rather expected the objection to be that -- my
13 suggestion that he was working late. As far as the topic is concerned, it
14 is, I submit, completely within the bounds of examination-in-chief. It's
15 harder to think of a more relevant topic to establish, from the
16 Prosecution's point of view, where -- as to where the phone call was made
17 and the time that it was made, because of course it's of great
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think it's proper for the -- it's a proper
20 question for the Prosecution to make, and I certainly don't see the basis
21 for the objection. So the Prosecution can carry on.
22 MR. DI FAZIO:
23 Q. Now, I want to return you now to the substance of the conversation
24 with Mr. Zaric. In fact, you haven't really given us much detail. Can
25 you tell us what you discussed with him?
1 A. As I said, the conversation was very short. I just conveyed to
2 him that we had this information, that in the village of Srpska Tisina,
3 soldiers in JNA uniforms with white ribbons were observed, and I asked him
4 whether he had any information about what this was all about. He said
5 that he had no information about it, that he did not know what this was
6 about, and that he was going to call the president of the local commune of
7 this village to get information about what kind of military personnel that
8 was, and then that he would call us after he gets that information. That
9 is how the conversation ended.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you -- what did you do after the conversation
12 A. After this conversation, I left the building with the policeman on
13 duty. I checked the perimeter security. I issued some additional
14 directives regarding the security, and then I went to my apartment.
15 Q. Did you have any more phone calls or make any more phone calls
16 following your return to your apartment?
17 A. Sometime around 2300 hours, Mr. Zaric called me at home. He said
18 that he had called the duty officer at the police station and was told
19 that I had gone home. And he probably gave him my phone number, because
20 this was the first time that we had spoken like this. He had never called
21 me at home before. He said that he had checked on the information which
22 we had requested of him and that he received information from that village
23 that their local unit had night exercise and that they had put on these
24 white ribbons so that they could recognise each other. And that was the
25 end of that conversation.
1 Q. Thank you. You described the man that you saw in the roadway with
2 the white armband -- or the men, I should say -- as being in JNA
3 uniforms. You've just told us that Mr. Zaric referred to a local unit.
4 Did you receive any information at all as to what that local unit
5 precisely was, what formation it was related to, what military unit it was
6 related to?
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the witness answers, I see the Defence
8 counsel on his feet.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecutor just said
10 that he had seen -- that the witness had said that he had seen the soldier
11 wearing a JNA uniform. That's not what he said. He said that this
12 soldier reminded him of soldiers at Vukovar. So I would like that to be
14 JUDGE MUMBA: We can go back to the transcript. I'm sure that the
15 witness did say "in JNA uniform."
16 MR. DI FAZIO: What my learned friend says is correct. He did
17 mention a description of Vukovar, but I seem to recall he also said --
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. He said that after he said that he was wearing
19 a JNA uniform.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that's right. It's in the transcript.
21 Q. So my question is simply this, Mr. Lukac: You've said when you
22 drove back, they looked like they were JNA. But Mr. Zaric says they are
23 a -- on the phone, they are a local unit. What I want to know is: Was
24 anything conveyed to you to indicate what sort of local unit, 4th
25 Detachment, JNA, special soldiers, anything like that?
1 A. He said that this unit was the unit from the local commune of
2 Srpska Tisina. He did not specify whose unit it was, where it belonged or
4 Q. Thank you.
5 JUDGE SINGH: Excuse me. This local unit, are they uniformed
7 A. In all these Serbian villages, certain units were formed, and they
8 were all in uniform, and they received their uniforms and weapons from the
10 MR. DI FAZIO:
11 Q. Was your mind put at rest, having had this conversation with
12 Mr. Zaric?
13 A. In a way, yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Did you go to sleep or go to bed or prepare for the --
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Were you awoken?
17 A. Perhaps an hour later, I received a call from the duty officer,
18 that is, Mr. Gregurevic, and he told me that in two locations in town,
19 members of JNA - that's how he described them - had been observed. I
20 asked him where did he get that information, was that observed by our
21 patrol in town or was it reported by citizens? He said that information
22 was received by telephone from private citizens. I told him to send our
23 police patrol to the locations specified and that they should check on
24 that, taking into account that members of the 4th Detachment - and we
25 mentioned that before - had appeared in various locations in town
1 previously, as part of their patrols, at that point, it looked to me,
2 or -- that it was probably them. He said that he would do so, because he
3 had to follow the orders that I had issued him, and that was my last
4 conversation with the duty officer at the police station that night.
5 After that, I went back to sleep.
6 Q. Were you awoken?
7 A. After a short while, the phone rang again. I got up and picked up
8 the phone, but I noticed that after I had picked up the phone, that the
9 caller on the other side had hung up. So I again went to bed.
10 Q. Please continue your narrative of the events of the night.
11 A. After I went to bed, I heard that in the courtyard of the building
12 where I lived, somebody was running. And that was unusual because it was
13 already past 1.00 a.m. I went out to the balcony. I looked around the
14 courtyard. I couldn't see anything. In the middle of the courtyard, I
15 had parked the -- my official vehicle. It was not a squad car. It was
16 not a marked -- it was an unmarked car, and it was there where I had
17 parked it. I went back to bed and I fell asleep.
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. After a short while, I was awakened by bursts of fire -- gunfire
20 coming from various parts of town. I think that it was about 2.25 at that
21 point, from what I can recall. I realised, based on that gunfire, that
22 the town had been attacked. I immediately picked up the phone to call the
23 duty officer, but when I picked up the phone, I realised that it -- the
24 line had been disconnected, and I put it together that the last call,
25 which was hung up, had been somebody checking to see whether I was at
1 home. It was at that time that the war started; that is, the Serb
2 aggression against Bosanski Samac.
3 Q. I'd like you to move fairly quickly now through the remainder of
4 the events of that night. Did you go downstairs to a Muslim family's
6 A. Yes, maybe an hour later. These were my neighbours in the
7 apartment building where I lived.
8 Q. Were people gathered there?
9 A. In fact, I went there in order to use their telephone. However,
10 when I got there, they said that their telephone had also been
11 disconnected. And in the next two, three hours, other tenants of this
12 apartment block also joined them. It included Bosniaks, Croats, and
14 Q. Throughout this time, could gunfire be heard?
15 A. The gunfire subsided towards the morning. I think that perhaps it
16 went on for two, two and a half hours, and it came from different parts of
17 town. One could also hear explosions. It was a situation that had all
18 the earmarks of war.
19 Q. What did you decide to do?
20 A. In early morning, around 5.30, the phone service was back. I
21 called the police station from the apartment of this neighbour, several
22 numbers, and nobody responded to those calls. After that, I managed to
23 get on the phone the president of the local commune of Bosanski Samac,
24 Mr. Safet Hadzialijagic. I asked him whether he knew what was going on in
25 town, and he said that the town had been occupied by the JNA.
1 Q. Did you actually see any soldiers going about the town or
2 associated with this gunfire and explosions?
3 A. While I was in that apartment, you couldn't see anything much from
4 there regarding movements of people, especially not in the wider area. So
5 I used the opportunity that I was with a Serb man who was from Gornja
6 Crkvina. I asked him to bring us out of town virtually. I knew that
7 persons who had occupied the town would very quickly come to get me.
8 The reason for this was the fact the neighbour in whose apartment
9 I was had made several calls to various persons in town, I'd say family
10 and friends, and received information. Two persons had been killed by
11 that time in town, and that pointed to the brutality of those who had
12 occupied the town. As I said, those were my reasons for asking this
13 Serbian man to help us get out of town, with his assistance, and he agreed
14 to it. He said that he would take us to his parents' home in Gornja
15 Crkvina, which is a Serbian village in the territory of the municipality.
16 However, as we were leaving town in a vehicle, I observed that as
17 we were passing the hospital compound, a police vehicle was coming out, a
18 squad car with all the windows lowered, the front and the back doors, and
19 there were four men in camouflage uniforms in it. They had also
20 camouflage hats with wide brims on their hats. I concluded that they were
21 members of a group that had arrived from Serbia at Batkusa on the 12th of
22 April. This is what I concluded based on their appearance.
23 Q. Can you recall anything about their appearance that led you to
24 that conclusion? What was special?
25 A. I was led to that conclusion by the uniforms that they wore and
1 the hats that they had on their heads, because when this group from Serbia
2 arrived from Batkusa, I received precisely that information relating to
3 those hats.
4 Q. Did your trip out of town take you near Cafe AS?
5 A. Yes. I passed down that street. The door to that cafe was open
6 and there was nobody around.
7 Q. Yes. Please continue. You --
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
9 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, I kindly ask my learned friend
10 from Prosecutor bench to avoid these kind of questions. I will tell
11 you -- I will give you an illustration. In previous one he said, "Where
12 did you -- did you go to your neighbour's apartment, Muslim neighbour's
13 apartment?" The other question here is, "Did your trip out of town take
14 you near Cafe AS?"
15 The proper way of questioning would be "Where did you go after
16 event A?" or "Where -- did your trip out of town, was at that time?" or
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You're objecting to --
19 MR. PANTELIC: Why Cafe AS? Why Muslim neighbours? And so on.
20 Frankly, I'm very --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: These are leading questions, yes.
22 MR. PANTELIC: -- this kind of thing. It's not so important
23 thing, but the manner and the habit might be bad for future examinations,
24 questions, and then --
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is taken.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 MR. PANTELIC: -- we could jump into a very, very sensitive area.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
3 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Leading questions, Mr. Prosecutor.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Those two questions I agree are leading. I
6 don't take any issue with what Mr. Pantelic has said. I will avoid
7 those. I will fear that we may go slower, but I'll avoid them in future.
8 If -- I wouldn't have thought that they were contentious issues or matters
9 of great controversy, but I'll avoid them.
10 Q. Now, you were describing your trip out of town, and you've
11 described seeing a group of soldiers in camouflage uniforms and
12 wide-brimmed hats. On your trip out of town, did you see any further
14 A. After we came out of town, we moved along the highway in the
15 direction of Crkvina, the lateral roads joining this main highway, and at
16 each intersection there was a group of soldiers in JNA uniform. Those
17 were groups of four to five, up to six to seven soldiers each, and they
18 were all armed. I observed that these soldiers were somewhat older, 40,
19 45 years of age, and I concluded that these could have been members of
20 local villages, Pisari, Gornja Crkvina, Donia Crkvina.
21 Q. I have here a yellow marking pen, Mr. Lukac. Could you please
22 just mark on the map with the yellow marking pen the route that you took
23 out of town.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Thank you. You've -- were you able to get through the
2 A. When we arrived at the intersection at Gornja Crkvina where, as
3 I've explained before, the JNA had set up a checkpoint, which is here, I
4 observed that at the intersection there were, in my estimate, about 30 men
5 in uniform. A number of them were wearing JNA uniforms and others had
6 police uniforms. Also, on the highway there were road obstacles which we
7 called hedgehog, apex obstacles, which are anti-tank obstacles made out of
9 Two policemen stood there. One of them stopped our vehicles with
10 a little stop sign. After we were stopped, he asked the driver for his
11 document. And I was sitting next to him. The driver gave him the
12 document. After that, he looked through the window. He said, "Give me
13 your ID." I gave him my driver's licence because that was the only
14 document I had on me with a photograph. He looked at it and said, "You're
15 the one," on the basis of which I concluded that he knew who I was. And
16 he immediately told the driver to take the car in the courtyard of a
17 facility which was right by this intersection. It's a youth centre in
18 this village of Gornja Crkvina.
19 He did that, and a group of policemen and soldiers approached us.
20 They searched the vehicle, and they didn't find anything in the vehicle.
21 There was nothing there to be found. Then they took us inside this centre
22 and locked us up in one of the rooms, and they placed a uniformed soldier
23 with a rifle in front.
24 Q. If I can ask you to pause there.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, we're going to now move on
1 to a different area of evidence, and it's 11.00. Would this be an
2 appropriate time?
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's 11.00, and we'll have our break and
4 resume at 1130 hours.
5 --- Recess taken at 11.04 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution is continuing.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Before the break, Mr. Lukac, you told us that you were stopped and
10 you were taken inside a centre at Crkvina. What sort of place was that?
11 A. This is a village in the territory of the municipality of Bosanski
12 Samac that was populated by Serbs.
13 Q. Sorry, I meant the building after you were stopped. What building
14 were you taken into?
15 A. It's a group of buildings that belong to the youth centre. These
16 are the community buildings of that village. Specifically, the room that
17 we were brought in was the room where the local birth and marriage
18 registrar worked.
19 Q. Were any other people locked in there?
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. di Fazio, leading questions.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
22 Q. What happened when you arrived inside the room or the building,
23 the youth centre?
24 A. Upon entering this room, I found another group of people in there
25 who had practically been arrested before us and brought there. I cannot
1 tell you exactly how many people were there at the time, but let's say it
2 was five or six.
3 Q. Did you have freedom of access and freedom to move about?
4 A. We could not move anywhere. The dimensions of this room were
5 perhaps four by five metres. The door was locked and, as I said, there
6 was an armed guard in front of that door.
7 Q. Who were the other people who were there with you? Do you have
8 any idea as to who they were, what ethnic backgrounds they were, any
9 information about them?
10 A. I knew some of these persons, and I didn't know others. However,
11 people talked in that room, and I realised that some of these persons were
12 ethnic Slovenians, they were truck drivers, and they had parked that night
13 waiting to cross the bridge on the Sava River. I already said that at
14 1900 hours this bridge would be closed and then reopened at 6.00 a.m., so
15 when the Serb forces attacked town, they practically happened to be at
16 that position right in front of the bridge. After that, they were
17 arrested and brought to this room. Also, there was a doctor in there and
18 a driver. They both worked for the -- for the first aid service. And one
19 was a Bosniak, the other one was a Croat, and they were arrested that
20 morning when they went to answer an urgent call.
21 Q. Did you make any attempt to ascertain why you had been placed in
22 this situation?
23 A. After a while, Dragan Stefanovic entered this room. This is a
24 person who I had known before that, because he worked in the municipal
25 administration in Bosanski Samac. I think that at that point he was head
1 of the local commune of Gornja Crkvina. He wore a camouflage uniform at
2 that moment.
3 I then asked him on whose orders I had been arrested. He said to
4 me, "On the orders of the Serb Crisis Staff." I asked him who headed this
5 Crisis Staff, and he said, "Dr. Blagoje Simic."
6 Q. Did you ask for any more details, or did you leave it at that?
7 A. I didn't ask him anything else. However, I have to point out that
8 we spent the following three days there in that room, and this man treated
9 us very fairly.
10 Q. Were any other prisoners added to those already in the room?
11 A. During that day or, rather, the next day - that was the
12 18th - some new prisoners were brought in. In the meantime, some of those
13 who had been detained in there were released, inter alia, the truck
14 drivers, the Slovenians whom I mentioned who were there with us for a
15 while. At any rate, the number of people in there kept changing. Some
16 were being released and others were being brought in.
17 Q. Were you eventually taken from that youth centre in Crkvina?
18 A. On Sunday, the 19th of April, that is to say, the third day of our
19 stay in that room, the five of us who had remained in there, in that room,
20 were transferred by truck escorted by the Serb police to Bosanski Samac.
21 It could have been around 11.00 or 12.00 on that day.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, before we get on to events in Bosanski Samac, I
23 want to ask you some questions about documents.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the document that I'm going
25 to refer to now is indicated as C14, 1-4, on the list of documentary
1 exhibits. Copies are available in both original form, in B/C/S form, and
2 in translation.
3 For the purposes of the transcript, it can be described as Report
4 from 17th Corps Headquarters to 2nd Military District Command, dated
5 17 April 1992.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I see Defence counsel on his feet.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. For the sake of
8 defendants, would it be appropriate if we sort of have a rule that
9 everything which is put on the ELMO is in B/C/S? Because the defendants
10 cannot really see the --
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, cannot read English. Mr. di Fazio.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, could the interpreters then
13 please have copies in English.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters are also asking that they should
15 have copies in English.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: First of all with the ELMO, on the ELMO is an
17 English version. Underneath it there should be a BCCS. In any event, two
18 documents were handed, one in English, which is the English translation,
19 and one in B/C/S. As I said the other day, I highly agree with what
20 Mr. Zecevic says. The B/C/S should be placed on the ELMO.
21 As far as the interpreters are concerned, I have, I believe - I'll
22 just ask my case manager in a moment - some extra copies, and I can make
23 the English -- I think I can make the English translations available now
24 if you just permit me to make that inquiry.
25 Extra copies I now hand to the usher for the use by whoever may
1 need them, interpreters, translators, and anyone else. The Defence, of
2 course, have the documents. Both have been served and disclosed on them a
3 long time ago.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the exhibit numbers, please?
5 THE REGISTRAR: This document titled "Report from 17th Corps
6 Headquarters to 2nd Military District Command," dated 17th of April, 1992,
7 shall be marked for the record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P19, and the B/C/S
8 version shall be marked for the record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P19 ter.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Before I proceed, there is one further problem I
10 observed. The document in B/C/S is on the ELMO, but the witness himself
11 doesn't have one to use. Can you --
12 Q. Mr. Lukac, can you see --
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Is there no extra copy in B/C/S?
14 MR. DI FAZIO: I have an extra copy, which I can ask can be handed
15 to Mr. Lukac. Thank you.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Lukac, I think you have the benefit of both the written
17 B/C/S version and the ELMO as well. Firstly, at the top of the document,
18 you see that it's headed "17th Corps Headquarters." Was this the body
19 that the 17th Tactical Group was part of?
20 A. Yes. The command of the 17th Corps was in Tuzla.
21 Q. Thank you. At the bottom of the document is what appears to be a
22 "received" stamp. Can you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. It indicates the document was received on the 17th of April at
25 5.30 in the afternoon, or 1730 hours. Can you see that?
1 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I can.
2 Q. Thank you. Two names are mentioned in the -- on the face of the
3 document. Firstly, the author of the document appears to be someone named
4 - and I'm not sure of the pronunciation - Vice Pedisic. Do you know that
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Another name that's mentioned is Colonel General Kukanjac.
8 Do you know that person?
9 A. I do not know him personally, but I have heard of him.
10 Q. The document would indicate that members of the Territorial
11 Defence and MUP of the Serb Municipality of Bosanski Samac clashed with
12 another group. And I'll get on to the other group in a moment. But what
13 do you understand to be the Territorial Defence and MUP of the Serb
14 Municipality of Bosanski Samac?
15 A. The Territorial Defence should be the units that were formed in
16 Serb villages of the municipality of Bosanski Samac a long time before the
17 war, and they were attached to the JNA. I assume that these were members
18 of the detachments that we spoke of, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th. As for the
19 MUP of the Serb Municipality of Bosanski Samac, that should be the MUP
20 that was established within the establishment of the Serb Municipality of
21 Bosanski Samac. It was headed by Mr. Stevan Todorovic.
22 Q. Thank you. There is a reference there to a clash with members of
23 Alija Izetbegovic's Territorial Defence and MUP. Now, have you ever heard
24 of a body called the Alija Izetbegovic Territorial Defence and MUP?
25 A. I have never heard of any such thing. At that time, there was the
1 Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Ministry of the Interior
2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Alija Izetbegovic at the time was president of the
3 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that being the collective head of state
4 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
5 Q. The next sentence is interesting in its logic. It says that
6 members of the Territorial Defence and MUP of the Serb municipality took
7 control of the MUP of Bosanski Samac.
8 A. Well, that probably means that members of the MUP of the newly
9 established Serb Municipality of Bosanski Samac occupied the legal
10 Ministry of the Interior or, rather, its public security station in
11 Bosanski Samac.
12 Q. Thank you. The next sentence, or paragraph perhaps, says that
13 forces came from the Republic of Croatia and attempted an infantry attack
14 across the bridge. On the night of the 16th when you were still free, did
15 you see or hear anything that suggested that, that there was such an
16 attack from the Republic of Croatia?
17 A. No. And I don't think that this piece of information is correct
18 at all. Actually, what happened was the exact opposite. The forces of
19 the Serb Territorial Defence or, rather, the JNA, and especially the
20 special forces of the newly established Serbian MUP of the municipality of
21 Bosanski Samac, launched an attack against the members of our police, and
22 I said that there were ten of them who were then guarding the bridge on
23 the Bosna River, on the Bosnian-Hercegovinian side. I think that that
24 wording would correspond to the truth, not the wording of this telegram.
25 At any rate, an alibi had to be found for what had been done by the Serb
1 Territorial Defence or, rather, the JNA or, rather, the MUP of the Serb
2 Municipality of Samac.
3 Q. At the top of the document, in handwriting, there is some
4 handwriting. What does -- can you shed any light on what it says or what
5 it means? You see the number thirty -- what appears to be 31 in a circle
6 and then some writing. If you don't know what it says or what it means,
7 let us know.
8 A. I don't know what number 31 means, but the rest of the text says,
9 "Strictly confidential." That is the top level of confidentiality as far
10 as documents are concerned, and also there is the number of its filing and
11 also when it was received by the persons who were receiving it. It is
12 only logical that somebody would have received it at the headquarters, not
13 at the military district, because the military district is a far broader
14 notion, as was already mentioned by the Prosecutor a few minutes ago.
15 Q. Thank you. I have finished with that document.
16 JUDGE SINGH: Witness, just excuse me. What happened to your
17 policemen, the ten policemen who were guarding the bridge?
18 A. I can answer that. According to the information I received later
19 when talking to some of these policemen, a number of them were taken
20 prisoner on that occasion. I'm talking about the ten policemen who were
21 on the bridge. And a number of them managed to cross the bridge into the
22 Republic of Croatia.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. The next document, if Your Honours
24 please, and my learned friends from the Defence, is C15 on the list of
25 Prosecutor's exhibits. Perhaps that can be headed in this way so as to
1 distinguish it from the previous document I've just tendered in this
2 manner: Report or Communication from 17th Corps Headquarters to
3 2nd Military District Command Requesting Action by Air Force, dated
4 17 April, 1992.
5 Q. I'll be brief with this document, Mr. Lukac.
6 A. No.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps it could be given an exhibit number at this
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please?
10 THE REGISTRAR: This document shall be marked for the record as
11 Prosecutor's Exhibit P20, and the B/C/S version shall be marked for the
12 record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P20 ter.
13 MR. DI FAZIO:
14 Q. Now, again, it's got at the bottom a "received" stamp, and I trust
15 my learned friends won't accuse me of leading if I suggest that it's
16 obvious from the document that it was received on the 17th of April, 1992,
17 apparently at 10.30.
18 Do you agree, Mr. Lukac?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. There is also some writing, handwriting at the top. Can you
21 provide us with any information as to what that says, what it means?
22 A. Similar like on the previous telegram. It is strictly
23 confidential again, and also there is the number under which it was
25 Q. Thank you. The communication refers to the defeat of an enemy at
1 Bosanski Brod. Where is Bosanski Brod?
2 A. Bosanski Brod is west of Bosanski Samac. It is about 40 to 50
3 kilometres away. That is also a municipality in the region called
4 Bosanska Posavina.
5 Q. Is it on the Sava River?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, as far as the reference in this document to Bosanski Samac,
8 it indicates that there is a request for a flyover of aircraft, light
9 combat aircraft, to produce a psychological effect and intimidate enemy.
10 Thinking back now and the time that you were in Crkvina -- yes, in
11 the time that you were at Crkvina, can you recall any aircraft jets flying
12 across the -- or apparently flying in the area? If you have no memory,
13 just tell us.
14 A. I can't remember.
15 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: The next document I want to refer to, if Your
17 Honours please, is C16. Again, copies can be provided to the Court. For
18 the sake of the transcript and again to distinguish it from the previous
19 two documents, can it be headed "Communication by the 2nd Military
20 District Command to the Operational Centre of the General Staff of the
21 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia," dated 17th of April, 1992? And
22 I seek a -- that it be admitted into evidence.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: And the number, please?
24 THE REGISTRAR: This document titled "Communication by 2nd
25 Military District Command to Operational Centre of General Staff of
1 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" shall be marked for the record
2 as Prosecutor's Exhibit P21, and the B/C/S version shall be marked for the
3 record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P21 ter.
4 MR. DI FAZIO:
5 Q. Now, Mr. Lukac, the first question is this: This document appears
6 to be sent to the General Staff of the Socialist Federal Republic of
7 Yugoslavia. Where is that located?
8 A. Excuse me. I don't have the document in front of me.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: The usher is taking the documents out to the
10 interpreters, I think.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: I have a spare copy, and I see that court staff is
12 now providing the witness with a spare copy.
13 Q. Do you have it? Do you need me to repeat my question? The
14 question is: Where is the General Staff? Where is it located?
15 A. The General Staff is in Belgrade; was there.
16 Q. And I think you may have already touched upon this, but I want to
17 remind the Trial Chamber. Where is the 2nd Military District Command
19 A. The command of the 2nd military district was in Sarajevo.
20 Q. The first sentence speaks for itself. The second paragraph refers
21 to intervention happening after numerous conflicts and excesses along
22 inter-ethnic lines, preceded by an attempt by the armed forces of Croatia
23 to cross the bridge over the Sava.
24 The first part of that sentence, "asserts numerous conflicts."
25 Now, you've given evidence generally about the situation as it developed
1 in Bosanski Samac generally. Were you aware of numerous conflicts and
2 excesses along inter-ethnic lines in the period of time leading up to the
3 17th of April?
4 A. As far as I know, inter-ethnic conflicts and incidents in the
5 territory of Bosanski Samac were nonexistent before that.
6 Q. Thank you. You've already given us your views about any attack by
8 The second sentence -- the second sentence in that paragraph
9 asserts that there was an attempt to launch an attack on the forces of the
10 17th Corps between the village of Prud and Bosanski Samac. Can you tell
11 the Chamber if you are aware of any 17th Corps forces being located there,
12 that is, between Prud and Bosanski Samac?
13 A. In the Serbian villages in the neighbouring municipality of Odzak
14 that Prud borders on - and Prud was part of the Samac municipality, and
15 it's a Croat village - in the Serb villages, there were military units
16 that were formed like in the Samac municipality, and the JNA had to form
17 them, especially in Donja Dubica and Grad. Donja Dubica is, by the way,
18 the adjoining, neighbouring village.
19 Q. Again, the next sentence speaks for itself. Have you any idea
20 what the phrase "citizens have been isolated" means?
21 A. That meant that they were detained.
22 Q. Thank you. The document is signed by a gentleman named Nikola
23 Cego. Do you know him?
24 A. No.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm done with that document.
1 The next document that I wish to produce the Chamber will see
2 listed as C17 on the Prosecution's list of exhibits. Copies were
3 provided. While we are waiting for the documents to be distributed, for
4 the purposes of the transcript, it can be identified in the following
5 way: "Communication to command of 2nd Military Region by commander of
6 Operations Group 1," date 17th of April, 1992.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: And the number, please?
8 THE REGISTRAR: This document titled --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. di Fazio, would you please approach your
11 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] ... April 1992, shall
12 be marked for the record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P22, and the B/C/S
13 version shall be marked for the record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P22 ter.
14 MR. DI FAZIO:
15 Q. Firstly, do you know the author of that document, a gentleman
16 whose name is -- first name is Milan. And on my document, it's not very
17 clear on the translation. The name seems to end with "blincevic."
18 A. This is Colonel -- a JNA Colonel, Milan Stublincevic.
19 Q. Do you know him?
20 A. I don't know him personally, but to my knowledge, he was to occupy
21 the post of commander also of a forward command post of the 17th Corps
22 which was in Podnovlje in Doboj municipality.
23 Q. Thank you. And the remainder -- one other matter on this
24 document: There is handwriting again at the top of the document.
25 A. Here it states, "Not for now." It's probably from somebody from
1 the 2nd Military District. I guess it refers to a hold to the action for
2 now, which I assume to be the destruction of the bridge.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: I've finished with that document. If Your Honours
4 please, I propose to now produce into evidence two further documents.
5 I'll do them at the same time for the sake of speed. They are C18 and C19
6 on the Prosecutor's list of exhibits. For the sake of the transcript and
7 identification in respect of C18, could it be described in the following
8 way, "Communication from the 17th Corps Command, dated 18th of April,
9 1992, to 2nd Military District Command in Doboj, and signed by Major
10 General Savo Jankovic." And in respect to the -- of the other document
11 that I'll refer to later, or next after I've dealt with what is C --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please, the one we've
13 already received?
14 THE REGISTRAR: The document formerly known as C18 shall be marked
15 for the record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P23, and the B/C/S version shall be
16 marked for the record as P23 ter. And the document formerly known as C19
17 shall be marked for the record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P24, and the B/C/S
18 version shall be P24 ter.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. And for the purposes of the transcript,
20 the latter document, the one that was formerly known as C19, can be
21 headed, "Communication from 17 Corps headquarters to 2nd Military
22 District, dated 18th of April 1992, and signed by a Colonel Radomir
23 Rajevic." Thank you.
24 Q. Mr. Lukac, do you have the document dated the 18th of April and
25 apparently signed by Major General Savo Jankovic in front of you?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. To make it easier, you will notice that the paragraphs
3 are numbered. Paragraph 1 -- I'll withdraw that question.
4 The 17th Corps command, can you give the Chamber an idea of the
5 area it covered or was responsible for?
6 A. Are you referring to the 17th Corps or the 17th Tactical Group?
7 Q. Well, just again briefly, briefly tell the Chamber of the area
8 that the 17th Corps command covered and the area that the 17th Tactical
9 Group was responsible for.
10 A. I don't know exactly what the 17th Corps actually covered, but I
11 believe that it was the large part of the northwestern territory of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the 17th Operations and Tactical Group, its zone
13 of responsibility were six municipalities, because I heard that personally
14 from Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic during the conversation we had in his
15 office in the Brcko barracks, and I think I explained that before.
16 Q. Thank you. Go to paragraph 3. In the English translation, it's
17 on page 2. It's a long paragraph. Paragraph 3 has a -- is further
18 divided into paragraphs, and the third-to-last paragraph asserts that on
19 the 17th -- sorry, on the 18th of April, 1992 at 11.00, total control was
20 established over Bosanski Samac. Was there anything that you heard or saw
21 or observed at the time that you were in this youth centre, imprisoned in
22 this youth centre in Crkvina that accords with that assertion in the
24 A. I remember that on the 18th of April - that was a Saturday - while
25 I was detained in Crkvina, we could see from the room where we were the
1 road to Gradacac, and we saw a column of JNA tanks and APCs passing in the
2 direction of Bosanski Samac. One of the detainees counted the vehicles,
3 and I think that he counted 14 or 15 of them. And these tanks left in the
4 direction of the town of Bosanski Samac.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, just bear with me for a moment,
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm done with C18.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm done with C18.
11 Q. Now I'd like you to look at the next exhibit, formerly known as
12 C19. In fact, it's Exhibit P24. Okay. This document, again much of it
13 speaks for itself. The paragraphs I'm interested in is -- the paragraph
14 that I'm interested in is paragraph 4. It says that the Tactical Group 17
15 commander was ordered to secure the success that's been achieved and
16 abstain from taking any special steps. Who was the Tactical Group 17
17 commander at the time?
18 A. Lieutenant Colonel Stevan Nikolic.
19 Q. And there's some handwriting on the document that's not apparent
20 on the English translation. Can you shed any light on the handwriting on
21 the document?
22 A. It says, "Duty." I cannot read the second word. And underneath
23 it says, "Strictly confidential," in abbreviated form, and then a number.
24 Q. Thank you. I'm done with documents now, Mr. Lukac, and I want to
25 return to the events that occurred in Bosanski Samac after you were
1 transferred there from Crkvina. You said in evidence that you were moved
2 there on the 19th of April, Sunday. When you arrived at Bosanski Samac,
3 where were you taken?
4 A. When we arrived in Bosanski Samac, we got off the truck in front
5 of the entrance gate in the courtyard of the former Territorial Defence;
6 that is, the Territorial Defence compound. That is -- that compound was
7 across the street from the police station.
8 After we entered the courtyard, we were taken into a room which
9 had been used as a storage room for weaponry, and that's where we were
10 locked up. After we arrived there, I found there about 40 persons who had
11 been detained there beforehand.
12 Q. Inside the storage room?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, can you tell us of what ethnic background these people who
15 were locked up inside the storage room, what ethnic background they had?
16 A. People who were inside were ethnic Bosniaks and Croats, and there
17 was one ethnic Serb among them too.
18 Q. Did you recognise any of them?
19 A. I recognised most of them, because for the most part, they were
20 from the town of Bosanski Samac or from the territory of Bosanski Samac.
21 I knew most people by sight. Some of them I knew in other ways too.
22 Q. Perhaps I should also mention that a number of policemen who had
23 been on duty that night was also detained there. I'm referring to the
24 night of the attack on Bosanski Samac. Were they still in their police
1 A. Yes. For instance, one of them was a policeman who was one of the
2 group of policemen securing the bridge, and the rest were the policemen
3 who were providing security for the police station building that night.
4 Q. Who was guarding you? Sorry. I don't want to lead you on that.
5 Was anyone guarding you?
6 A. There was a metal door on that room which was locked by a cylinder
7 lock, and this door was always locked. In front of the door, two armed
8 Serbian policemen were standing who were guarding the room where we were.
9 Q. Can you tell us if the Serbian policemen were local Bosnian Serbs
10 or was there anything that indicated otherwise?
11 A. The policemen who guarded this room from outside were people from
12 the territory of Bosanski Samac municipality, but the policemen who were
13 going inside the room and who physically abused the detainees were members
14 of the special unit of the Serb public security station of Bosanski
15 Samac. There was a group among them who were men who had come from
16 Serbia, and those were the ones who before the war were stationed in
17 Batkusa. But there was also a number of local men from the territory of
18 Bosanski Samac who were wearing the same uniforms as the men who had come
19 from Serbia.
20 Based on information I acquired later, those men were trained in
21 the territory of the Republic of Serbia before the war - and I'm referring
22 to the local men from Bosanski Samac - which I believe is why they ended
23 up as part of this special police unit.
24 Q. You've mentioned physical abuse. I'm still confining my remarks
25 to the first day or the first period, initial period of time that you were
1 in the TO. Was there physical abuse at that stage?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was happening?
4 A. When I entered this room when they brought me there, I found all
5 these people who were in there to be in a very unusual position for me at
6 that time; that is, because they were all sitting round the walls of that
7 room. I noticed that these people were very frightened. At that moment,
8 I still had no idea why. Later on, I realised that they were frightened
9 because of the physical torture they were submitted to during their
10 arrests or when they were brought in from the police building.
11 Two or three hours after I was brought to that room, the door was
12 unlocked and a man whom I did not know walked in. He wore a camouflage
13 uniform, and he did not have any kind of cap or hat on his head. He was
14 holding a rubber police truncheon in his hand.
15 After he walked in, the door closed behind him. He stood in the
16 middle of that room. As I said, all the prisoners were by the walls. And
17 then he said, "Who is the newcomer?" No one responded to that question of
18 his. He repeated that question. From that question, I realised that he
19 meant someone who had just arrived there.
20 Then I got up and said that I had been brought there a couple of
21 hours before that from Gornja Crkvina. Then he said that I should come
22 closer to him. I did, and I stood in front of him. Then I actually had
23 the opportunity of taking a good look at that man. Later on, I realised
24 that I was not allowed to do that. When I talked to any one of these
25 soldiers or policemen who was standing in front of me, I was not supposed
1 to look at him, but I was supposed to look down at my feet. The most
2 noticeable thing about this man was the look in his eyes, which I shall
3 remember for the rest of my life. It was the look of a psychopathic
5 He asked me what my name was and what I did before the war. I
6 told him my name and surname, and I said to him that I was chief of crime
7 prevention police there at the police station. The very same moment, he
8 hit me hard on the back of my head with that truncheon, and he repeated
9 that a few times until he made me fall on the concrete floor of that
10 room. At that moment, I assumed that I was semiconscious, because these
11 blows were very strong, and as I said, in the back of the head, on the
12 left-hand side.
13 As I fell on to the concrete floor, I heard his orders, "Get up,
14 Bre." By the way he spoke, including the "bre," I realised that he had
15 come from Serbia proper, because that word "bre" was used only at that
16 time in the territory of Serbia. I got up. Then the blows followed, and
17 then I fell again. And I was falling and getting up again and being hit
18 once again several times in the same way. Ultimately, he stopped and
19 walked out of the room.
20 Q. First of all, what does "bre" mean?
21 A. It's an exclamation word that is used in everyday speech in Serbia
22 in the Ekavian dialect.
23 Q. This word "Ekavian dialect" has come up a couple of times. Just
24 briefly, where -- is that a region?
25 A. I think it's part of Serbia, a part of the area of Serbia, and I
1 think that this particular exclamation word is also used in Macedonia. It
2 is used in everyday speech. It is just a word that people resort to as
3 they are speaking. I don't know how to explain this, actually.
4 Q. Did you ever find out the identity of this man who attacked you?
5 A. After he left, the other prisoners helped me lie down and gave me
6 some kind of makeshift first aid, and then I heard from them that this
7 person's nickname was Lugar.
8 Later on, after I got out of the camp, during the following years,
9 I came to know that this person's name was actually Slobodan Miljkovic and
10 that he's from Kragujevac, which is a town in Serbia. He was also one of
11 the accused in this group that is on trial now, as far as I know. In
12 1998, this person was killed in Serbia.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown the bundle of
14 photographs? I've forgotten the exhibit number for the moment. I think
15 it's P14. It is P14. And I just want to show photographs at the end of
16 that bundle, consisting of photographs F68, F69, F70, and F71.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Lukac, have you seen these photographs before, or at
18 least that photograph?
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel?
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has a
21 principled objection to the way in which these photographs are shown. As
22 you can see on the photograph, in the upper left-hand corner, there is the
23 name of the person who is on the picture, and that's the same situation
24 that we had concerning all the photographs that were shown to witnesses
25 before. So we would like to suggest that this witness and all future
1 witnesses be shown photographs that will not include a caption saying what
2 is depicted or who is depicted.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: I was wondering, because the photograph we have
4 don't have the names.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: I apologise for that error. The photographs I have
6 in my bundle doesn't have any such indication. In fact, perhaps to avoid
7 this problem, I can just simply hand over the bundle that I'm using and we
8 can proceed with those.
9 I'd ask the usher just to make sure that there is no -- nothing on
10 them that indicates or leads the witness to any conclusions in
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think your problem has been taken care of.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'd like to get through this as quickly
14 as possibility. Perhaps if the usher could simply put them on, and I'd
15 ask Mr. Lukac to look at them in sequence. They don't have to be
16 displayed for a long period of time.
17 If you could now show the next photograph, please.
18 A. I think that it could be that person, the one that is depicted on
19 the second photograph, the one in this truck.
20 Q. Thank you. Keep looking.
21 A. That's that person. I'm talking about the person who is in the
22 cabin of this truck.
23 Q. Thank you. Just for the sake of absolute certainty, can you
24 please put the photograph that you recognise the person from onto the
25 ELMO. I just want to be --
1 A. This one.
2 Q. -- clear on your position.
3 Is it that you recognise the person in this photograph, but you
4 don't recognise any of the people in the other photographs?
5 A. I am sure that this person, Slobodan Miljkovic, nicknamed Lugar,
6 is the person who is on the photograph that is on the ELMO right now.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: And that is photograph number?
9 MR. DI FAZIO: F --
10 JUDGE MUMBA: So that the record can be straight here.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: It's F69.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I've finished with the photographs. I
14 ask that they be returned to me, because they are part of my bundle.
15 Thank you.
16 Q. Now, you've described this beating. Were you covered in blood as
17 a result of the beating?
18 A. Not as a result of the beating on that first day.
19 Q. Did you remain in the Territorial Defence building? Were you
20 taken away?
21 A. No. I stayed in the same room.
22 Q. How long did you stay there for?
23 A. I stayed that day and the following night.
24 The next day, Monday, those policemen took me out, local
25 policemen, and they took me to the police station building. As I said,
1 it's across the street from this particular facility. They took me into
2 one of the offices in that building. In that office, I found Stevan
3 Todorovic, who was in uniform. Then I found Milan Jekic there, the
4 pre-war commander of uniformed police. Then I found the security officer
5 from the 17th Operative Tactical Group there. He was wearing civilian
6 clothes. I also found a person who was in camouflage uniform there. I
7 don't know who that was, but I remember that person because while this
8 person was sitting there, he held in his lap a rifle that is a very
9 specific rifle in our part of the world. It's an American rifle that we
10 call a pump-action rifle.
11 Mr. Todorovic talked to me then. He asked me where my radio
12 transmitter was. I found that question to be illogical because I did not
13 know what kind of a radio transmitter he was talking about. However, he
14 kept repeating that question, and I said to him that I did not have any
15 radio transmitter, except for the official radio transmitters, the service
16 ones, that we used at the police station before the war. This was a very
17 brief conversation, perhaps about ten minutes, and after that, they took
18 me back to the storage room of the Territorial Defence.
19 Q. In the time that you were at the TO, did you ever go to your
21 A. That same day, as far as I can remember, after this interview with
22 Todorovic, two members of this special police came. They wore these same
23 uniforms, camouflage, and also these wide-brimmed hats. One of them was
24 from Serbia, and the other one was a local man. Milos Bogdanovic is the
25 name of the local man. He is from this village of Srpska Tisina. And
1 before the war, he was engaged by the JNA, within the military police.
2 They put me into a vehicle, and they took me to the building where
3 I lived. When we came in front of my apartment, I saw that the door to my
4 apartment had been broken, that it had been opened violently. After that,
5 they entered the apartment with me. They said that they came to take the
6 weapons that I had and also to take the official police vehicle that was
7 in the courtyard, as I had already mentioned, the courtyard of my
8 apartment building.
9 I handed over to them the official automatic rifle, police
10 weapon -- the official police weapon I had at home. I gave them my
11 police pistol, and I also gave them my own hunting rifle, a carbine that
12 was my personal property.
13 After that, they returned me to the same storage room of the
14 Territorial Defence building where I had been before that.
15 Q. How long in all did you remain at the Territorial Defence
16 building, locked up there?
17 A. In the Territorial Defence building? I and all the rest who were
18 with me stayed there for that whole week, or to put it more precisely,
19 until the 26th of April, 1992.
20 Q. Where were you moved to? Where were you taken then?
21 A. On the 26th of April - it was a Sunday - we were taken out. As
22 far as I can remember, there were 47 of us. We were taken to the military
23 prison in the JNA barracks in Brcko.
24 Q. I'll just interrupt you there. I'll get on to that episode in due
25 course. I just wanted to get a general picture. So you were transferred
1 on the 19th to the TO, and you stayed there until the 26th, when you were
2 moved to Brcko.
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. Now I want to deal with this period of time that you were in the
5 TO and the conditions that you observed. You've already described a
6 beating that you suffered at the hands of Lugar. Did you suffer any more
7 beatings yourself during this period of time that you were in the TO
8 building up to the 26th?
9 A. This beating was continued. Not only was I beaten but also the
10 other prisoners, every day. I think that the order "beating" is too mild
11 for what they did to us. It was actually a massacre. Nevertheless, I
12 have to point out that throughout this period, this physical mistreatment
13 was carried out only by the members of this special police.
14 In addition to this physical massacring, there was psychological
15 mistreatment of the prisoners by these same persons, notably. Perhaps the
16 most striking illustration of this is the demand that they made upon us
17 that whenever they entered the room, we would have to sing songs that were
18 Chetnik songs.
19 Q. How long would the singing have to go on for?
20 A. This singing sometimes went on for hours. As we sang all together
21 - because not a single prisoner was allowed to remain silent - we kept
22 repeating the lyrics of the song, for example, "From Topola to Ravna
23 Gora." That is a well-known Chetnik song from the Second World War.
24 Q. You described the extreme beatings. You described them as a
25 massacre. Can you comment on the frequency of beatings in that period of
1 time up until the 26th?
2 A. There was no rule involved. Usually the members of this unit
3 would come several times during the day or during the night, rather, and
4 repeat such ceremonies. These beatings were carried out in the following
5 way: When they would come, they would take a number of prisoners out into
6 the courtyard of the Territorial Defence building, and then two or three
7 members respectively of the special police would, as I had already said,
8 literally massacre the prisoners that they went out with. Sometimes they
9 would beat them also in passing as they would enter the room.
10 Perhaps it is also important to point out that a day before we
11 went to the military prison in Brcko, the first person in this storage
12 room was killed. Generally speaking, this was the first person who was
13 killed in the camp in Bosanski Samac, because in the period that followed,
14 many persons were killed.
15 If it is important, Slobodan Miljkovic killed that first person.
16 Q. What was the victim's name?
17 A. The victim's name is Anto Brandic, and he's from this village of
18 Donji Hasici that we mentioned earlier on during my testimony.
19 Q. Does he have a nickname?
20 A. Dikan was his nickname.
21 Q. We'll get on to that episode shortly, but I'd like to get some
22 details of previous events, please.
23 You've mentioned that special police were involved, special forces
24 were involved in the beatings. Can you give us any more names of people
25 other than Lugar, who you've mentioned, who participated in these
2 A. Well, at that time, we did not know the name of these persons.
3 They used nicknames when they addressed each other. So actually, I cannot
4 exactly identify these persons by name.
5 Later, later, I found out, for example, that one of these persons
6 who was from Serbia was called Predrag Lazarevic, his nickname being
7 Laki. We remembered him because he had two fingers missing on his right
8 hand. He had probably lost these fingers in the war theatre in Croatia
10 I wish to point out, though, that a local person also took part in
11 these massacres, and this person was on this special police force, and
12 this man is from Bosanski Samac. Just a minute. Let me remember this
13 person's name. Nebojsa Stankovic, nicknamed Cera. That's his name.
14 Q. Any other nicknames or names that you can recall associated with
15 the beatings?
16 A. Different nicknames were used, Crni, Debeli, Beli.
17 Q. Now, Crni and Debeli are the two I'm interested in. Did you ever
18 subsequently find out any information about them?
19 A. Yes. Crni is Dragan Djordjevic. He is supposedly from Vranje, a
20 town in southern Serbia; whereas Debeli is actually called Srecko
21 Radovanovic, and he is supposedly from the town of Kragujevac in Serbia as
22 well. I say "as well," because this Miljkovic is also from Kragujevac.
23 Q. And did these two people that you mentioned in particular, Crni
24 and Debeli, actually participate in beatings?
25 A. Yes, they did.
1 Q. You've described the beatings that you observed in respect of
2 other people. You've described a beating that you received at the hands
3 of Lugar initially. Were you personally beaten again in that period of
4 time leading up to the 26th?
5 A. They beat me every day. I was in this group of prisoners, let's
6 put it that way, who were beaten the most at that time. I'm talking about
7 prisoners who were then kept in the storage room of the Territorial
8 Defence building, because a number of prisoners were detained at the
9 police building as well.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prosecutor, when a witness is describing
11 beatings or any physical force used on them, it is important to describe
12 what, if anything, was used, any weapon, any item. For instance, in one
13 beating, police truncheons were used.
14 He should also say what articles were used, whether police
15 truncheons. And these others, Crni and the other one - he mentioned the
16 nicknames, people by their nicknames - what were they using? Because this
17 is important if we are discussing inhumane treatment, cruel treatment,
18 when we come to discuss -- when we come to write the judgement, because
19 whatever physical treatment, ill-treatment, it must be of a serious
20 nature, and the evidence has to come from the witnesses.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I take Your Honour's point, and I'll make
22 sure that there's evidence of that elicited.
23 It's just past the hour. Shall I ask that question now and deal
24 with it now that it's fresh in our minds?
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
1 MR. DI FAZIO:
2 Q. Mr. Lukac, you heard, I think, what Her Honour said. Can you
3 comment on anything -- any instrument that was used in the course of the
4 beatings, either on yourself or on other people, in that period of time
5 leading up to the 26th, when you were transferred to Brcko? You've
6 already mentioned police truncheons, but anything else that you can
8 A. At that time, that is to say, during those first days, most of
9 these beatings were carried out with police truncheons, hands, feet, or
10 military boots, to be more precise. However, Lugar, just before he killed
11 Brandic, on that occasion entered this room with a wooden stick, perhaps
12 one metre long. As for when I was beaten, it is only a rubber police
13 truncheon that was used, and also the physical strength of the persons who
14 were actually doing that; that is to say hands, feet, boots, et cetera. I
15 emphasise that this is the first stage. And other prisoners were treated
16 in a similar way, with similar means, so to speak.
17 I can, for example, describe a characteristic massacre to you. I
18 use that term because it is the most telling of all. On one day, I think
19 during the first week, I think it was a Tuesday or a Wednesday, a group of
20 these special policemen took me out into the courtyard of the Territorial
21 Defence building. Then Nebojsa Stankovic made me kneel on the concrete
22 there. As soon as I kneeled, he kicked me in the head with this military
23 boot, and, of course, I fainted because this was a very severe blow, and
24 the military boot is very heavy. He then knocked out four of my teeth.
25 Also, my face was cut by the eye then and my eye was completely swollen
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 and I bled a lot.
2 I am mentioning this only because the Presiding Judge of the Trial
3 Chamber asked for it, and I indeed agree with her point that it is very
4 important to have an accurate picture of what this exactly looked like.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you. Maybe we can stop there, and you
6 will continue tomorrow at 0930 hours. The Court will rise.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
8 1.06 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th
9 day of September, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.