Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2836

1 Thursday, 25 October 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the registrar please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness.

11 Ms. Baen, you are continuing with cross-examination.

12 MS. BAEN: Thank you. Good morning, Your Honours.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Cross-examined by Ms. Baen: [Continued]

16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bicic. Mr. Bicic --

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bicic, on Tuesday we ended the afternoon talking

19 about your whereabouts the week of April 17th, 1992, and you said that you

20 left town frequently for your business and also to move your family,

21 because of the psychosis the week of April 17th, 1992. Let me ask you:

22 You never left town, Bosanski Samac, for any other reason other than

23 business and moving your family?

24 A. What you said is correct.

25 Q. Mr. Bicic, you know Sulejman Tihic, do you not?

Page 2837

1 A. Yes, I do know him.

2 Q. He was the president of the SDA in Bosanski Samac in April of

3 1992; is that correct?

4 A. I think he was the president.

5 Q. You're not sure whether he was the president of the SDA in

6 Bosanski Samac in April of 1992?

7 A. As far as I know, he was in the topmost leadership, according to

8 what I heard, but whether he was president or not at that period, I'm not

9 100 per cent certain.

10 Q. Okay. Top leadership. Are you aware that he's already testified

11 here in front of the Trial Chamber in this case?

12 A. I'm not sure of that either.

13 Q. Have you ever had any business dealings with Mr. Tihic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What sort of business dealings have you had with Mr. Tihic?

16 A. He would often represent me. Actually, he was my attorney.

17 Q. All right. So other than in legal representation of you, did you

18 have any other business dealings with Mr. Tihic?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you ever have any dealings with the SDA itself? I know you

21 said you weren't a member, but did you ever have any dealings with the SDA

22 as far as assisting them in any way, or did you ever give any donations to

23 the SDA, or did you ever contribute your services to the SDA in any way?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you ever have an occasion to assist Mr. Tihic by transferring

Page 2838

1 anything for him or the SDA?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So you never transferred any material for either Sulejman Tihic or

4 the SDA on or about April 13th, 1992; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct; I did not.

6 MS. BAEN: Mr. Usher, could I please ask your assistance in

7 presenting these documents to the witness.

8 And, Your Honour, may I ask the usher's assistance? I'm sorry.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What are the documents? Can you --

10 MS. BAEN: Yes, Your Honour. They are entitled "Certificate,"

11 "SDA Certificate," dated April 13th, 1992. I have the original in the

12 Bosnian version and there's a translation in English.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Has the Prosecution seen the documents?

14 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour, we've seen this document. It was

15 the one where I requested an investigator put it to my client. That's the

16 document that was put by the investigator to the client after -- I said

17 I -- I personally had no contact on this --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. That's the document. Okay.

19 MS. REIDY: That's the document. And I've -- as I've notified

20 Defence, we will be objecting to its admission into evidence because

21 there's -- we have no reason to believe it's authentic. But I think that

22 will come out in the questioning.

23 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, we just ask if the Court could please just

24 mark it for identification purposes. That's all. And we understand the

25 Prosecution's objection.

Page 2839

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number for identification

2 purposes only?

3 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be D3/2 ter for the B/C/S and D3/2

4 for the English and ID.


6 Q. Mr. Bicic, do you have the Bosnian version of this exhibit in

7 front of you, sir?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Would you please read what is at the top left-hand corner of the

10 document? Read out loud, please.

11 A. "SDA."

12 Q. The next two lines, please.

13 A. "Party of Democratic Action. Bosanski Samac."

14 Q. Could you please read the next two lines, including the date.

15 A. "Number 36/92. Date: The 13th of April, 1992."

16 Q. And could you please read the title of the document in the middle

17 of the page in bold type.

18 A. "Certificate."

19 Q. And now, Mr. Bicic, could you please read for the Trial Chamber

20 the next two paragraphs of the document.

21 A. "It is certified that Hasan Bicic, son of Zijah, from Bosanski

22 Samac, for the Party of Democratic Action needs, can transfer necessary

23 materiel and equipment on the 13th of April, 1992.

24 "This certificate is issued for the purpose of transferring

25 materiel and technical equipment for SDA Bosanski Samac, and it cannot be

Page 2840

1 used for any other purposes."

2 Q. And what are the next two lines in this document on the lower

3 right-hand corner underneath those two paragraphs?

4 A. "President, Sulejman Tihic."

5 Q. Mr. Bicic, have you ever seen this document before?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So you never were presented with this document by an investigator

8 with the Office of the Prosecutor earlier in the week?

9 A. Well, I haven't seen this document.

10 Q. You're telling me this week, Ms. Reidy or no investigator from the

11 OTP ever showed you this document?

12 A. I don't remember ever having seen this document.

13 Q. Let me just ask you one more question. Let me just ask you one

14 more question.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe -- let's clear this. Maybe the copy isn't the

16 one he saw.

17 MS. BAEN: I have no idea. This is exactly the one that we gave

18 to the OTP, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecutor has a copy which he actually saw?

20 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. The copy that -- well, the copy

21 that I gave the investigator to -- to ask -- as I say, I wasn't -- I

22 wasn't there. I don't know. Perhaps -- perhaps --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. But it was a photocopy?

24 MS. REIDY: It was a photocopy.


Page 2841

1 MS. REIDY: It's in my office at the moment, that actual copy that

2 was shown, with some notes at the bottom from the investigator.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that's all right.

4 MS. REIDY: I'm guessing it has to be probably a photocopy of the

5 same -- of the same document, but, as I say, I don't know whether the

6 investigator ever --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Showed him.

8 MS. REIDY: -- showed him.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Fine.

10 MS. REIDY: I asked him to ask three questions about the document

11 and that --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Okay.

13 MS. BAEN:

14 Q. So we've established, Mr. Bicic, that you've never seen this

15 document before. Let me ask you one more question: You have told the

16 Trial Chamber that you had never been a member of the SDA or assisted the

17 SDA in any way. Do you have any idea why your name would appear on a SDA

18 document of this kind?

19 MS. REIDY: Objection. Objection. We've simply said --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution.

21 MS. REIDY: We've simply said that we would allow this document in

22 for identification. Our whole purposes -- we have no way of proving that

23 this is an SDA document. You can see -- well, perhaps -- there's no

24 stamping, no signing. There's nothing to suggest there's any authenticity

25 to this document --

Page 2842


2 MS. REIDY: -- as indeed other documents have seen -- we've seen

3 stamps on that. So to say that this is an SDA document is simply not a

4 factual thing that's been proved. So why it appears on this form is

5 another question.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because as it appears, like the Prosecution

7 have said, you cannot conclude that.

8 MS. BAEN: May I respond? We're going to certainly present this

9 document to Mr. Tihic to see if he will authenticate it. Right now we're

10 merely presenting this on cross-examination to see if this witness could

11 identify it, which, number one, he can't. But if he can't, does he have

12 any idea why this might even exist? I mean, we're allowed to

13 cross-examine him on the document. We're not offering it for evidence.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can, but not to make the conclusion that

15 you're making and putting it to him as the Prosecution protested. Yes.

16 MS. BAEN: Well, let me --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: So you may rephrase your question.

18 MS. BAEN: I'll rephrase it.

19 Q. Okay. Mr. Bicic, I'm sure you're following what's going on.

20 Mr. Tihic is coming back to cross-examine. We will ask him about this

21 document. My question is: You're saying you've never seen this before.

22 If Mr. Tihic says that this is an authentic document, do you have any idea

23 why your name would appear on such a document?

24 MS. REIDY: Objection.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Prosecution.

Page 2843

1 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, this is a simple matter. Again, you're

2 asking the witness to speculate on what Mr. Tihic might or might not say

3 at any time in the future. The question, simply put to the witness, is:

4 Do you know why your name is on this piece of paper? And the -- Ms. Baen

5 is not allowed to attribute any other quality to this specific document.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Baen. The objection is sustained. You can

7 cross-examine without giving the impression to this witness that this

8 document was authored by Mr. Tihic.

9 MS. BAEN: I'm not --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: That is a problem.

11 MS. BAEN: Okay. Mr. Tihic may not have authored this. It may be

12 a totally bogus document.


14 MS. BAEN: But if it is authentic, which we won't have a chance to

15 talk to Mr. Bicic about this again -- Mr. Tihic when he comes back and

16 identifies this and says it's an authentic document --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Then that's a matter for closing arguments --

18 MS. BAEN: We're not --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: -- because the witness has said he has never seen

20 this document, and that is clear.

21 MS. BAEN: I understand that.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So you can't put it -- confuse him by trying

23 to allege that this is -- this document was authored by Tihic.

24 MS. BAEN: They're saying that it's not authentic. They're saying

25 that it's a bogus document. So that's what I'm telling him. I'm saying

Page 2844

1 the OTP has been saying that this is a bogus document, this is not

2 accurate.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, I don't know where this will take you, but

4 proceed, but provided that you bear in mind that the witness has said he

5 has never seen it.

6 MS. BAEN: This is actually my last question, Your Honour. I just

7 want him to answer that question, and then I'll sit down.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm waiting for the question.


10 Q. The same question: Do you have any idea why your name is on this

11 piece of paper?

12 A. According to my knowledge, my name was on lots of different sorts

13 of documents, signatures and everything that goes with that. So I hope

14 that you're going to propose some of the ones that I signed in the

15 Cyrillic alphabet when they beat me in the police station when I gave

16 statements. I hope you have some of those documents too.

17 As far as this is concerned, I mean this document, the one that is

18 before me, I think that it would be even more credible or authentic in

19 character if, in addition to the SDA and President Sulejman Tihic, there

20 could have been the name of the president Alija Izetbegovic. It would be

21 more credible then.

22 Q. Your answer is you really have no idea why your name is on this

23 document; yes or no?

24 A. That's right; I have no idea.

25 MS. BAEN: Thank you, Mr. Bicic.

Page 2845

1 Your Honour, I have no further questions of this witness.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The next counsel. Is it Mr. Lukic?

3 Cross-examination.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours and all

5 other participants in the courtroom. Before I start my cross-examination,

6 I should like to ask the Court on this occasion to see the -- to introduce

7 the English versions of the documents that I introduced when I examined

8 Mr. Lukac on the 1st of October. In the meantime, I have received the

9 official translation of the document and I have prepared the documents,

10 and I think that this is the right time for me to tender them. They have

11 been given ter numbers, D3 to D8 ter, and I would like to tender those

12 documents into evidence. So I'd like to ask the usher's assistance. I

13 have already handed in the documents to the Prosecution and the Trial

14 Chamber.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can have the documents, and as they are

16 already -- you have said they are official English translations.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] They have been placed in order as they

18 were introduced and as the documents were lined up in the B/C/S version.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we just have the formal numbering,

20 please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: The English translations are numbered D3/3, D4/3,

22 D5/3, D6/3, D7/3, and D8/3.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The Prosecution.

24 MS. REIDY: Just so we don't interrupt Mr. Lukic's cross, I'm not

25 sure that we got all the official English translations. Or if he did,

Page 2846

1 could you just tell me -- if it's just the one you gave to me, the single

2 one?

3 MR. LUKIC: Four days ago.

4 MS. REIDY: Okay. That's good. Then I'll follow that up. Thank

5 you.

6 MR. LUKIC: Four days ago.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: I wasn't clear. Is the Prosecution saying they

8 haven't got the whole batch?

9 MS. REIDY: No, it's okay. I just -- this morning Mr. Lukic gave

10 me a document that he intended to tender into evidence, and the reference

11 to the official English translations of previous documents, I just wanted

12 to make clear if he had given it to our team members, because it wasn't me

13 personally. But if he has already disclosed them, then it's a matter for

14 the Prosecution to follow up.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

16 Yes, you can proceed, Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just to clarify, I handed it to the

18 Prosecution several days ago and I didn't want to tender it into evidence

19 until this came up. But I can say that the Prosecution did receive copies

20 of the official translation on the day that I received them too. That is

21 certain.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bicic. My name is Attorney

24 Novak Lukic and I'm Defence counsel for Mr. Miroslav Tadic, and on his

25 behalf, I'm going to ask you several questions.

Page 2847

1 First of all, Mr. Tadic has asked me to convey to you his regrets

2 for everything that you experienced and recounted here before the Tribunal

3 since the time you were arrested until the time you were released. But we

4 are all here to clarify certain issues and facts, and we should like to

5 ask for your assistance, as witness, to ascertain the relevant facts

6 regarding the indictment and the trial that we are here about.

7 I should like to move back quite a bit in time. You said that you

8 were from an old Samac family. Was your father also a caterer, and was

9 his name Zijah, the late Zijah?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And he had a cafe. You said that you took over the family

12 business of this cafe; is that right?

13 A. Yes. It was a restaurant.

14 Q. Since you were a boy, you helped your father in that cafe serving

15 customers, and that was one of the attractions, that your father would

16 bring in his small son and dress you and that you would help him serve his

17 customers; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. So we can say you were a caterer from the very earlier stage; is

20 that right?

21 A. Yes, more or less.

22 Q. Do you happen to remember that Mr. Miroslav Tadic used to frequent

23 that old family cafe while you were still a boy, when your father was

24 alive?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2848

1 Q. Do you remember that you -- that he played cards with your father

2 there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You also said that you were active with Mr. Tadic in the private

5 entrepreneurs' association and that you were president of the catering

6 association representing your particular branch.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you frequent the AS Cafe?

9 A. Yes, although I wasn't a very frequent guest.

10 Q. In 1992, from the beginning to the attack on the 17th of April,

11 did you frequent it during that period?

12 A. I'm not sure of that.

13 Q. When you would stop by, were then the normal number of customers

14 in the cafe? Was it frequented normally?

15 A. I assume so, yes.

16 Q. Then I suppose you know that people played cards there too.

17 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

18 Q. It was said that people would come to play cards there even from

19 further afield, outside Samac, from Serbia and from Croatia. Would that

20 be true?

21 A. I can't confirm who came.

22 Q. I'm sure you know that there was a hall with a billiard table

23 there and another one where cards were played.

24 A. Yes, I do know that.

25 Q. Do you happen to know the fact that the cafe worked round the

Page 2849

1 clock, as long as there were customers to sit in it?

2 A. Yes, I do know that. I know it was open for long hours. Whether

3 it was actually non-stop, I can't say, but I know that it was open for

4 long hours.

5 Q. Do you know that some respected citizens would come to the cafe,

6 these respected citizens of Samac who were not Serbs by ethnicity?

7 A. Well, I think everybody frequented that particular cafe.

8 Q. You said that members of all ethnic groups came to your pizza bar

9 as well, regardless of national affiliation, ethnic affiliation.

10 A. Yes. I don't think there were any ethnic bars or cafes in our

11 town, if I can put it that way.

12 Q. I completely agree with you there, and Mr. Todorovic's answer with

13 respect to your arrest, with respect to the alleged meetings of the HDZ in

14 your pizza parlour, as members of all ethnic groups would frequent the

15 establishment, and that he was surprised that that was stated.

16 A. Yes. I'm glad we can agree on something.

17 Q. Well, would the same criteria hold true for the AS Cafe, that is

18 to say that all ethnic groups frequented it, and if the cafe worked round

19 the clock until there were any guests left present, and if people from

20 outside Samac would come in for drinks and card playing?

21 A. In the short time prior to the aggression on Samac - when I say

22 "the short time," that is a debatable point - I don't know actually who

23 came -- who went there, because I didn't go, but it was common knowledge

24 that at least one month prior to the aggression, or even more than that,

25 longer than that, different sorts of people would gather there. But who

Page 2850

1 it was who actually frequented the establishment, I don't know, because I

2 didn't go to the cafe at that time.

3 Q. But you heard that members of the 4th Detachment frequented it?

4 A. Everybody in town knew that. Everybody knew that it was a meeting

5 place or headquarters of some kind.

6 Q. You will agree with me that people understand meeting places and

7 headquarters in different ways, they understand those terms differently?

8 A. Well, yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Do you know that opposite the AS Cafe there was a

10 shop -- the building of the SIT, Samac textile industry?

11 A. Yes, more or less. Yes.

12 Q. Let me now move on to a different area. Let me remind you of some

13 of the answers you gave to the Prosecutor in answer to his questions. You

14 said that after your arrest, that you were put up in the same room in SUP

15 [redacted] with an elderly Albanian man, and with Sulejman

16 Tihic. Is that right?

17 A. My brother was there too.

18 Q. Thank you. Were you all transferred to the warehouse of the

19 Territorial Defence together?

20 A. I couldn't tell you that at this point in time. My brother and I

21 were for sure, but with so much time gone by, I can't actually say whether

22 we were all transferred at the same time.

23 Q. You said that in the TO warehouse, you were kept there for about

24 ten days, after which you were transferred to Brcko; is that right?

25 A. That's what I said, yes.

Page 2851

1 Q. Mr. Bicic, did you, during your incarceration in the TO warehouse,

2 in that particular room, ever see Miroslav Tadic?

3 A. I don't think so, no.

4 Q. Thank you. And just one brief question, if you happen to

5 remember: You recounted the events in detail with respect to Dikan's

6 killing. Do you happen to remember in which vehicle, if it was a vehicle,

7 was his body transferred and who the driver was of that vehicle, if it was

8 indeed a vehicle and if you saw it?

9 A. I did not see it.

10 Q. I should now like to move on to discuss what you said on one

11 occasion when you had the -- received the happiest news, most joyous news,

12 which was, in fact, news of your exchange.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

14 introduce a list of exchange, the exchange list, which was used on the

15 occasion when the witness was exchanged. It is the list which exists

16 officially in the Prosecution's documents as evidence, and it was

17 disclosed by the Defence in 1998 to the Prosecution, and before the start

18 of trial, I sent this list to my colleagues of the Prosecution.

19 I have a working translation, a draft translation, but a few days

20 ago I gave the document up for official translation, which I haven't

21 received yet. So can we tender this provisionally, the translation I

22 have, while waiting for the official translation? It is the list, as I

23 say, dating to 1992.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we can have those documents, because when you

25 give -- if the documents are going to be referred to the witness,

Page 2852

1 obviously you have the Serbo-Croat, and then our interpreters can

2 interpret whatever is written on them. Yes. So we can receive it.

3 I just want to find out from the Prosecution if there's any

4 objection.

5 MS. REIDY: There's no -- no objection at all.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Before -- I'm sorry, before you ask, how

7 many lists are you going to use? Only one?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Only one, yes.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Can we have the number, please?

10 THE REGISTRAR: B/C/S version will be numbered D12/3 ter and the

11 English version D12/3.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would also like to ask the usher to

13 place the map, D15 - it is the Times map of Yugoslavia - on the ELMO,

14 please. It is a large map.

15 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, if I may be of assistance.


17 MS. REIDY: I'm not sure it's a map that the Prosecution -- is

18 it -- is it a large map that you're speaking -- I think Mr. Lukic is

19 referring to the map that's mounted on a hard back back here.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe --

21 MS. REIDY: Then the usher would find it back here in the corner,

22 rather than with the registrar.


24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bicic --

Page 2853

1 JUDGE MUMBA: The usher doesn't seem to be -- is there a map

2 there? It's empty?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Bicic, you have before you a document which you might be

5 seeing for the first time. It is a list. Can you just read the date and

6 the heading, what it refers to?

7 A. You mean on the left? The title, or the list of persons

8 exchanged, who left, on the 4th of July, 1992?

9 Q. Yes. That will be sufficient. Do you see your own name on the

10 list? If so, could you tell us the number?

11 A. I see my name under number ten.

12 Q. Thank you. You said that about ten people from your group left on

13 that occasion. Do you recognise any of those people on this list of

14 names? And please, if you happen to remember somebody, tell us.

15 A. I'll take it in order for persons whom I'm certain were from my

16 group. As to the other names, I don't really know whether they were

17 incarcerated in another prison or somewhere else.

18 Q. Yes, that's right.

19 A. So in addition to me under number ten, there was number 13, Atic

20 Kemal. Next I think it was number 14, I think, Tolic Ilija. I think he

21 was another one. Hurtic Salko.

22 Q. Is that number 25?

23 A. Yes, number 25. [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 That's as far as I can remember names. I allow for the

Page 2854

1 possibility that there are others whom I could not identify by name now

2 and who was in my group.

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 Q. Yes. Thank you. Would you just read, next to number seven, the

12 name Stipo Nogic. Can you tell us what it says here next to his name?

13 A. It says he did not go in this exchange.

14 Q. Can you read what it says under number 44, next to the name?

15 A. It just says "No."

16 Q. Thank you. You said you were exchanged on the 4th of July or

17 sometime -- 4th of July or sometime around the 4th of July. Do you say it

18 was on the 4th of July?

19 A. It's quite possible.

20 Q. Mr. Bicic, on the big map of the former Yugoslavia, would you

21 indicate Sid? I don't believe Lipovac is on the map, but if you could

22 point to the town of Sid for the Trial Chamber.

23 A. I think I should be able to find my way around. I have to stand

24 up. I should stand up.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness can stand up and look at the map closely

Page 2855

1 if that will help.

2 A. I have found Sid.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Can you move a little to the right?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: I wonder whether counsel can see. Yes.

6 A. It's here.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Thank you. Could you indicate it once again and stand a little

9 more to the side so that the Defence counsel can see?

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Indicated on the map. Yes.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I have no further questions

14 related to the map, so the witness may sit down.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

16 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I wonder if it may be of assistance for

17 the record and for the Trial Chamber to show -- just so the transcript

18 records the fact that Mr. Bicic pointed with a pointer to a location which

19 on the Times map is situated within Serbia. I mean, I think that's what

20 we saw, and if perhaps the transcript could just reflect that. Would that

21 be --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I can't understand that --

23 MS. REIDY: Sorry.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: -- because he was asked to indicate where Sid is on

25 the map. And what is your point?

Page 2856

1 MS. REIDY: My point is that we could all see in this -- see in

2 this room and see on the map that -- where he pointed to as being

3 identified as Sid was located within the boundary of Serbia, and I was

4 wondering whether it might be possible that the record could reflect that

5 for future --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see.

7 MS. REIDY: -- reference if necessary.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: That is within the boundary of Serbia.

9 MS. REIDY: Yeah. And while we could all visibly see that from

10 the map, it wouldn't be recorded as a -- on the transcript that we could

11 cross-reference to in future if we needed to.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. Okay. Yes. It will -- yes. It's

13 already in the transcript.

14 MS. REIDY: It's in the record. Okay. Thank you very much.

15 Thank you.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Do you remember approximately how far away Lipovac is from Sid?

18 After all this time, could you judge the distance?

19 A. Well, I can't answer you with any precision, but it could be about

20 20 kilometres. I'm not sure about this though.

21 Q. You said that UNPROFOR mediated in your exchange. Are you

22 familiar with the term UNPA zone, and if you are, what does it mean?

23 A. I think I heard about some terms such as the demarcation line

24 later on.

25 Q. Do you remember that in the place of your exchange, there were

Page 2857

1 representatives of the United Nations on the spot?

2 A. Yes, I remember.

3 Q. Was it perhaps the Russian battalion?

4 A. I couldn't say.

5 Q. Do you remember there were representatives of the European

6 Community there or OSCE?

7 A. I don't know that.

8 Q. Did you see representatives of the Red Cross?

9 A. I couldn't remember.

10 Q. Only a few details in connection with the trip itself. Do you

11 remember that you waited for a long time at the border between Bosnia and

12 Yugoslavia, at a place called Raca where there is a bridge? Did the

13 convoy halt there for a considerable period of time?

14 A. I don't remember exactly where it was that we waited for a long

15 time, but I do know that we waited for a few hours, and I heard that one

16 of the buses had broken down. But where it was exactly that we waited and

17 how long it was, I couldn't tell you now with any precision.

18 Q. Do you remember that when the convoy set out from Samac, after a

19 certain time it stopped in a wood near Bijeljina for people to take a rest

20 and relieve themselves?

21 MS. REIDY: Your Honour.


23 MS. REIDY: The witness never testified to any stop in the woods.

24 If the -- of course the counsel wants to ask him whether he remembers any

25 such a stop, that's one -- that's another matter. But I said -- he said--

Page 2858

1 he's suggesting in his question that the witness has testified to this

2 being a fact, and in my recollection and my review of the transcript

3 yesterday, I don't think the witness has ever testified to such a stop in

4 the woods.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. What you're saying is he shouldn't make a

6 suggestion. He should just put the question straight to the witness.

7 MS. REIDY: I'm just simply saying he shouldn't infer that the

8 witness has given that testimony himself. If he wants to ask whether it's

9 true or not, of course he is entitled to, but not to imply that this is

10 testimony the witness has given.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure counsel has understood the

12 objection.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I have understood the objection.

14 I simply asked whether he remembered that the convoy stopped in the

15 woods. I did not ask him whether he remembers testifying to this, but

16 only whether he remembers it. I didn't say that he had said this here.

17 That's in the record.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. It's clear now. The witness can

19 answer.

20 A. I don't remember stopping in the woods or somewhere else, but I do

21 remember that at several checkpoints we were stopped and that people

22 wearing military uniform boarded the bus, threatened us. And I've already

23 testified to this. They wanted to take one of the prisoners off the bus

24 and so on. But where it was exactly, I couldn't recall now. No, I'm not

25 able to recall it now.

Page 2859

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 Was the motel in Sid closed?

7 A. I don't remember that either.

8 Q. Mr. Bicic, I will ask you again whether you recall this: How many

9 buses or vehicles were waiting for you on the other side, on the side

10 under Croatian control, when you -- when you passed through the place

11 where you were exchanged?

12 A. I couldn't be sure, but I know I was sitting in a bus. How many

13 vehicles there were and what sort of vehicles they were, I really can't

14 say.

15 Q. Were there more than three buses?

16 A. I wouldn't be able to answer this with any certainty.

17 Q. Did you see the people who came to be exchanged from the other

18 side when you were passing them by? Because the way I understood it,

19 people passed by each other while they were being exchanged. That's what

20 we saw on the video.

21 A. Well, I saw some buses passing by, but I was not in any condition

22 to -- I don't remember.

23 Q. Let's be very specific. Did you see on the other side that the

24 people approaching towards your buses were elderly people, women,

25 children? Were there people like this?

Page 2860

1 A. I don't remember that.

2 Q. You said that you had been met by a friend who brought you some

3 clothes and shoes.

4 A. Yes. He was waiting for me at another motel near Zupanija.

5 Q. Did you ask him from whom he had found you out that you were to be

6 exchanged, where he got this information?

7 A. I don't remember asking him.

8 Q. After you were released, I assume you tried to find out when your

9 brother would be exchanged.

10 A. Well, it's only natural. Yes, of course I did.

11 Q. Who did you apply to for information about when your brother would

12 be exchanged?

13 A. I think I applied to someone who had this information in Slavonski

14 Brod while I was there.

15 Q. Have you heard of the commission for the exchange, the HVO

16 commission for the exchange of prisoners and imprisoned civilians?

17 A. I think I have heard of a Commission for Exchange. I think that's

18 what its name was, something like that, the Commission for Exchange.

19 Q. Your brother, as far as I know, was exchanged in Dragalic in early

20 September of the same year.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That was about two months after your release?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I have finished with the topic of exchanges. I will move on. I

25 have just a few more questions.

Page 2861

1 When did you first come back to Samac for the first time after

2 July 1992?

3 A. That's another question I couldn't answer with any precision, but

4 I can say perhaps -- well, yes. When I started working on this -- in

5 connection with my property, the restoration of my property. So perhaps

6 it was approximately a year and a half ago, but I can't be precise about

7 the time.

8 Q. In your opinion, did the war in Samac begin on the 17th of April,

9 1992?

10 A. I think, yes.

11 Q. In your view, did the war finish when the Dayton Accords were

12 signed in 1995?

13 A. I can't go into this now.

14 Q. Before the end of military operations, did you try to go back to

15 Samac?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You have described the state in which you found your house when

18 you went back to Samac. Do you know that your house was damaged by

19 shelling, by shells coming from Croatian territory, in the course of 1993?

20 A. I know that for a time there was some sort of headquarters in my

21 house. What kind of headquarters it was, I wouldn't know, whether it was

22 military or police or what. I only heard that there was some sort of

23 headquarters there.

24 Q. I asked you whether you knew that the house had been destroyed by

25 shelling.

Page 2862

1 A. I don't know what means was used to destroy it, but I allow for

2 the possibility, because when I saw that the walls were damaged and the

3 roof, I allow for that.

4 Q. Are you aware of the fact that a number of houses were damaged at

5 the same time from shelling coming from HVO-controlled territory?

6 A. I know that other houses were damaged too, but I don't know where

7 the shells came from.

8 Q. Do you know that Kenan Avdibegovic's house was damaged? He's a

9 well-known figure.

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you know that the house was severely damaged, the house of the

12 Repcic family, and that their child was a casualty?

13 A. I heard that.

14 Q. Thank you. On several occasions during this cross-examination,

15 you said that from the moment of your arrest until your release, you made

16 no decisions of your own free will.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You also said when Mr. Simic told you that you most probably would

19 be exchanged, that this news filled you with joy and that you could hardly

20 wait to tell this wonderful news to your brother.

21 A. Yes, I said that.

22 Q. During the exchange, while you were waiting in the convoy, you

23 said you were afraid that perhaps the exchange would not succeed.

24 A. Yes, I did say that.

25 Q. Just one more question: Did you want to be exchanged; yes or no?

Page 2863

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

3 questions.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

5 The next counsel. Mr. Pantelic.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Good morning, Your Honours.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bicic. My name is attorney

9 Pantelic and I am Defence counsel for Mr. Blagoje Simic.

10 A. Good morning, Mr. Pantelic.

11 Q. I will do my best not to speculate, like my colleague Ms. Baen

12 did, but to go directly to the facts, and I won't force you to speculate,

13 and so I hope that in this way we'll be able to stick to a 30-minute time

14 limit.

15 Mr. Bicic, let us ascertain some relevant categories essential for

16 this trial. You were arrested on the 18th of April; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You were incarcerated in Samac at the SUP and the TO up until the

19 end of April, which means around about the 27th or 28th of April?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You were later transferred to Brcko, and I think that you were in

22 Brcko until about the 1st of May.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. After Brcko, you were transferred to Bijeljina, and you were there

25 until the middle of the month, so we can say until approximately the 15th

Page 2864

1 of May; is that right?

2 A. Yes, we can put it that way, although I don't know the precise

3 date.

4 Q. Yes. Yes. That goes without saying, because a lot of time has

5 gone by since then. But at all events, when you returned to Samac in

6 mid-May, or rather, when you were returned, when they took you back, you

7 spent two or three days in the secondary school building; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then, sometime around the 20th of May, you were transferred to

10 the primary school?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And practically speaking, you stayed in the primary school until

13 the day of your exchange, which was sometime at the beginning of July or,

14 rather, the 4th of July?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Very well. We've got through that time period and the details.

17 Mr. Bicic, the members of paramilitary formations, on the morning

18 of the 18th of April, asked money and other valuables of you; is that

19 correct?

20 A. I don't know whose members they were, but what you say is correct,

21 yes.

22 Q. Next, those same members, in the SUP, forcibly took a gold chain

23 that was around your neck away from you?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. Next, may we agree that Lugar seized your jeep from you and that

Page 2865

1 you happened to recognise it, to notice it - at around the 20th of April,

2 you saw him driving your jeep, in fact - and that there were a lot of

3 goods from your pizzeria in it? Is that right?

4 A. No. I said that I saw some of that up in the room when I was

5 interrogated at the SUP building.

6 Q. Very well. Let us take another route and say that we can agree on

7 the fact that Lugar had seized your jeep; yes or no?

8 A. My jeep was seized. Now, whether it was seized by Lugar or

9 someone else, someone from his group, his team, I really can't say that

10 now.

11 Q. But you did see Lugar driving your jeep; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. In Brcko you were also searched, and they took away

14 all your documents and valuables, the ones that you had managed to have

15 with you still; yes or no?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you also agree that while you were in Samac, you had

18 contacts with somebody called Jusa and that he was from Belgrade? Is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that man, Jusa, had your gold chain on him; yes or no?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And he offered to return the chain to you?

24 A. No.

25 MS. REIDY: Sorry, Your Honour.

Page 2866

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

2 MS. REIDY: Could I -- if Mr. Pantelic is suggesting that the

3 witness has indeed said this, could he please, for the record and for our

4 benefit as well, tell us when the witness is alleged to have said that he

5 offered to return the chain to you? Because I'm not aware of that again

6 being in the record. And if it's from another source, then I just think

7 Mr. Pantelic should be putting on the record where he has that information

8 from.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think sometimes it's the problem of

10 language, the way the questions are phrased. It's not necessarily that

11 the witness did -- it is implied that the witness did give that evidence.

12 It's clear to me that he's simply asking whether this particular man

13 offered to return the chain to him.

14 MR. PANTELIC: In any case, I can withdraw this particular -- the

15 last question, I can withdraw. It's no problem. Thank you so much, Your

16 Honour.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Bicic, may we agree that on that

18 occasion, you had the impression that that man Jusa from Belgrade was some

19 sort of superior in relation to the soldiers who seized the chain from

20 you?

21 A. Yes, that's what it looked like.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, during this conversation with Jusa, did he say

23 that he had a cafe in Belgrade and you had a cafe too, so that you were

24 sort of colleagues along those cafe lines? Is that correct?

25 A. That we were colleagues, no.

Page 2867

1 Q. No. I mean as caterers, owners of cafes.

2 A. Well, he said that he had been to my house. He first of all asked

3 me whether I recognised the chain. I said I recognised it but that I was

4 no longer interested in it, and then he said that allegedly he would save

5 it for me and would return it to me after the war.

6 And he gave me a carton of cigarettes, and yes, he said that he

7 had been to my house and that allegedly he had leafed through some

8 photographs and saw that I had a daughter and he himself had a daughter

9 and a catering establishment in Belgrade and that I reminded him of

10 himself and that we even used the same aftershave lotion. So he

11 apologised and said he had taken a bottle of that aftershave lotion or

12 perfume, whatever, and then he discreetly asked me whether I wished him to

13 make some documents for me, compile some documents for me which would

14 allow me and my brother to get out.

15 Q. Thank you. You have come to my next question, actually,

16 anticipated it. This man Jusa offered to make false documents for you and

17 your brother and to transfer you both across Serbia into Hungary, yes or

18 no?

19 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter did not hear the

20 answer.

21 A. I said yes. Yes.

22 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. On that occasion --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: May I clarify with the witness? What year was this

25 and month, if possible, if you remember?

Page 2868

1 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Could you answer Her Honour?

3 A. 1992. It was when I was incarcerated in the primary school.

4 Q. Therefore, on that occasion, this man Jusa wanted you to drive

5 your new Mercedes off as well once he had made up these documents for you

6 and allowed you to go off into Hungary?

7 A. I assume that he thought it was hidden somewhere, in somebody's

8 garage perhaps or something of that kind.

9 Q. In fact, it was your impression that he was using this as bait in

10 order to learn where your Mercedes was and to seize the Mercedes from you;

11 is that right?

12 A. Well, I couldn't believe anything to the contrary.

13 Q. So your answer is yes?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. You will agree with me when I say that it was your

16 impression at that time that the beatings in the TO were for economic

17 reasons actually, is that right, lucrative reasons?

18 A. Well, not exactly.

19 Q. A certain person called Lazo Troja asked 30.000 German marks

20 from -- of you, along with the obligation to talk to the competent

21 authorities and to pull you out of your incarceration; yes or no?

22 A. Yes, more or less that was it.

23 Q. Mr. Bicic, I am very kindly requesting that you now read part of

24 your statement given in your own language for the record.

25 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] And may I ask for the usher's

Page 2869

1 assistance.

2 Q. It is the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, I think dated the

3 7th of March 1998. Can you read the portion -- that is to say, the last

4 paragraph, which begins with "I think"? Read slowly for the interpreters,

5 please. Thank you.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Could Mr. Pantelic identify where in the English

7 statement we should be looking at?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. So you want --

9 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I would happily do that, but unfortunately, I

10 have a very awful and bad copies of English. So probably the copy machine

11 in Prosecution office was so exhausted. So I have only B/C/S,

12 unfortunately, as I said. I mean, I followed it standard, but I really

13 cannot make any reference.

14 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I think we found it. If it helps the

15 Chamber, I think it's -- sorry. You don't have copies of the statement.

16 Then I think we've found it for the Bench.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the counsel asked the witness to read

18 slowly.

19 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Bicic, go ahead, please.

21 A. [As read] "I think that all the beatings at the TO also had an

22 economic purpose. I ask not see it then, but I've been thinking about it

23 after I was released. After almost every beating, a Serb called Lazo,

24 a.k.a. Trajan," with an "N" - it says "Troja" here, but he's "Trojan" with

25 an

Page 2870

1 "N" - "from Slatine turned up. He brought us pills and asked what had

2 happened to poor you. He asked us for money to save us. He told us that

3 he could pay JNA officers to release us. He can have been the man who

4 organised the beatings - I'm thinking about myself - to get money. Before

5 the war, I think he was a criminal. He was a criminal before the war."

6 That's what it says in the statement.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Verbatim; Interpreter's note.

8 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Would you turn to the next page, please?

10 A. [As read] "Sulejman Tihic, with the help of people, gave him more

11 than 20.000 Deutschemarks by help from people outside the camp but was not

12 released."

13 Do you want me to go on reading?

14 Q. Yes, please.

15 A. "After I had been severely beaten, Lazo also started the game with

16 me. He said that if I could, that he would get -- if I could give him

17 30.000 Deutschemarks, he would get me and my brother out of the country.

18 I told him that I had not money in Bosanski Samac but I had in Hungary.

19 Lazo said that he could not deal this way, because he first had to give

20 the money to Serbian officers. Lazo did never join the beating, but I

21 have reason to believe that many detainees were beaten because of him. It

22 was their way of earning money."

23 Q. Thank you. Just one correction. You said -- [In English] in the

24 transcript we have the word "but I had in Hungary," which is not true.

25 Actually, the witness followed the statement, and it was --

Page 2871

1 A. Yes, that's left out.

2 MR. PANTELIC: It's left out. It's not "Hungary." It's just left

3 out. Probably due to the confidential matters in English version this

4 name of this place was struck out. So it wasn't actually -- while

5 reading, he didn't mention a fact that he got money in Hungary, in

6 Hungary. Just for a clarification.

7 A. Just one moment, please. I said that I was -- that I was able to

8 pay once he had transferred me to Hungary. I didn't say that I had money

9 actually in Hungary, but perhaps that's not important at this moment.

10 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bicic. Having read out the statement that you gave

12 in 1998, can we agree that you had the strong impression that the basis

13 for all that mistreatment was the seizing and looting of money, cars, gold

14 chains, foreign currency by those bandits actually; yes or no?

15 A. At the beginning, I could agree with you. At the beginning.

16 Q. Thank you. That was the beginning, and you're probably coming to

17 another point now. Could you clarify what you mean by what you've just

18 said?

19 A. I can clarify it by saying that after they had seized all the

20 valuables, after everything had been looted and plundered, the beatings

21 continued to be very strong, and all the abuse as well. So they had

22 nothing more to seize, but they went on beating, just -- why? You would

23 have to ask them that.

24 Q. Thank you. Yes, that is my impression too. Mr. Bicic, we can

25 agree with the fact, can we not, that apart from Stiv Todorovic being the

Page 2872

1 chief of police, that he was -- that he beat you strongest with some sort

2 of baseball bats and bars; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, absolutely.

4 Q. It is my impression, on the basis your statements and these

5 general proceedings, that that man, Stevan Todorovic, took it out on you

6 particularly because he wanted to date your girlfriend who had rejected

7 him, the girl from Orasje, I believe.

8 A. Yes, I heard that afterwards, after my imprisonment. She never

9 mentioned that, but ...

10 Q. But your impression, when you learned about all this, was that he

11 took it out on you in particular precisely because, let us say, that

12 sentimental -- those sentimental reasons, if I can put it that way; is

13 that right?

14 A. Well, among other things. Probably because of that too.

15 Q. And once again talking about Stevan Todorovic, during the beatings

16 he would laugh like a maniac. That is what you said in your very words,

17 and I suppose you stand by them.

18 A. I can state here and now that he took pleasure in ...

19 Q. Thank you for your answers. Mr. Bicic, when you were in the

20 secondary school building, you said that Blagoje Simic turned up and

21 entered the hall, took a look around, made no comment, and left, went

22 out. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, accompanied by Stevan Todorovic.

24 Q. Did you recognise anybody else along with Blagoje Simic and Stevan

25 Todorovic?

Page 2873












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2874

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Were the two of them alone?

3 A. I don't think so, but I knew the two of them, so I can say that

4 the two of them were there.

5 Q. And what about in that hall with you? Who was there? Could you

6 enumerate all the people who were in the hall with you?

7 A. Mostly they were all the people from the group who they had

8 returned from Bijeljina.

9 Q. Could you give us a few names, please?

10 A. My brother, Ibrahim Salkic, Mersad Gibic. I can't now remember

11 all the names, but for the most part almost the whole group.

12 Q. I have to ask you this, because I have consulted my client and he

13 says that he was never there, which means that you are lying; right?

14 A. No. You're lying.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I think counsel provoked that sort of answer from

16 the witness by suggesting to him. He could be mistaken, for instance, but

17 he has given us the answer.

18 But, Witness, don't be rude to the counsel.

19 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Bicic, tell me, please, were you a member of some sort of

21 local party-armed formation; yes or no?

22 A. I didn't hear the question.

23 Q. Were you a member of a party-armed formation in Bosanski Samac?

24 A. No.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, I have two documents here.

Page 2875

1 Mr. Usher, I would like your assistance. There is enough copy for

2 Trial Chamber, for Prosecution.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What are they?

4 MR. PANTELIC: The documents are actually part of the previously

5 admitted documents of the military headquarter of SDA party in Samac and

6 Crisis Staff in Samac. These two documents, namely attachment number 6

7 and attachment number 8, are related. Attachment number 6 is the

8 communications section, which has the same form as the previous that I

9 mentioned, and attachment number 8 is the Hunters' section, just for the

10 -- to facilitate your following. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Is the Prosecution -- has the Prosecution seen the

12 documents or --

13 MS. REIDY: No, Your Honour, we haven't. As I said, the other

14 counsel did indicate which documents they wanted to use. I understand

15 from Mr. Pantelic's answers he said that they are part of documents that

16 he said are already in evidence. Then they should have an exhibit

17 number. If that's the case, then of course we have them. Apart from

18 that, we've never been given any other document from Mr. Pantelic.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I have to be clear what he says, they are part of

20 the documents. I don't know what that means. They could be in a similar

21 classification but certainly different documents, in which case they would

22 have different numbers if they were to be admitted.

23 MS. REIDY: Well, he hasn't indicated if they have an exhibit

24 number, so I don't know. And apart -- as I said, apart from exhibits that

25 have already been entered into evidence, Mr. Pantelic has not provided us

Page 2876

1 with any documents.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Let's clarify that, Madam President. I mean, this

3 document was disclosed to the Prosecution in pre-trial phase by my

4 colleague Mr. Pisarevic.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So it hasn't got a number on it.

6 MR. PANTELIC: They're in possession of this document. And you

7 will see at the first moment that are the same document that we have

8 discussed about the military Crisis Staff of SDA party and the headquarter

9 in Samac. Just a couple of questions, and we shall finish.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: No. What I want to be clear about is this: This

11 document that you want to discuss with the witness, has it been discussed

12 already or is it similar to other documents discussed? In which case it

13 is a new document, and we have to give it a number.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, we have to give it a number. I want to tender

15 it in evidence, because this is a part of my cross-examination and it's a

16 completely new document.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

18 MR. PANTELIC: For the references, for the facilitation, I make

19 these notes. So I kindly ask to have a number.

20 MS. REIDY: And Your Honour --


22 MS. REIDY: -- pending Prosecution examination of this document

23 and that -- if it could be only given an identification number, because

24 the Prosecution would object to its initial admission into evidence until

25 we have some time to consider the document.

Page 2877

1 MR. PANTELIC: I agree. I agree with that. No problem.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we can have the numbers for identification

3 purposes.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Numbers for identification will be number D16/1

5 ter for attachment number 6 for the B/C/S version and D16/1 for the

6 English; attachment number 8 will be D17/1 ter for the B/C/S and D17/1 for

7 the English.

8 MR. PANTELIC: May I proceed, Your Honour?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.

10 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Bicic, could you turn the page of the document you have before

12 you and read out the Bosnian version of the document on the right-hand

13 side. What does it say? Attachment --

14 A. It says "Attachment 6."

15 Q. Thank you. What is the title of the document?

16 A. "Communication Section."

17 Q. Very well. Under number 4, would you read out the name, please.

18 A. Hasan Bicic.

19 Q. And the number following it?

20 A. 62-970.

21 Q. Is that you? That is you. And is that your telephone number?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At that time, in 1992?

24 A. Yes, it is my home telephone number.

25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bicic, open the next document, please. Turn

Page 2878

1 to -- turn the page, please, because that is the English version, and read

2 out the upper right-hand corner. What does it say?

3 A. "Attachment 8."

4 Q. And the title of the document?

5 A. "Hunters' Section."

6 Q. Under number 1, where it says "reserve," what is the name?

7 A. Muhamed Bicic.

8 Q. Is that your brother?

9 A. Muhamed Bicic is my brother, yes.

10 Q. And what about the telephone number? Is that his telephone

11 number?

12 A. I think it is, his home number.

13 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 [In English] I think we are now 11.00. So we can take a break,

15 Your Honour, if you agree.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we'll take a break and start again at 1130

17 hours.

18 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pantelic continuing cross-examination.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bicic, you have had a look at the documents.

23 You did so before we had our break. Can you confirm that you were a

24 member of the communications section within the armed formation of the SDA

25 party in Bosanski Samac; yes or no?

Page 2879

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you have any knowledge about the fact that your mother

3 was --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Your brother, I'm sorry.

5 Q. -- was in the reserve formation for the Hunters' within the

6 framework of the SDA party formation in Bosanski Samac; yes or no?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Mr. Bicic, may we agree that just one number of -- just a part of

9 the population of Samac of Muslim ethnicity and Croatian ethnicity, after

10 the 17th of April, was arrested; yes or no?

11 A. I was incarcerated. I can't answer that question.

12 Q. Very well. You were incarcerated with some other Muslims and

13 Croats from Bosanski Samac; yes or no?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That means that not all Muslims or all Croats from Bosanski Samac

16 were incarcerated in Bosanski Samac under the control of the Serb police

17 force and paramilitary formations?

18 A. The place I was in, the area I was in, was not sufficient to take

19 everybody in, was not big enough for everyone.

20 Q. Yes, but did you know at the time that only a portion of the

21 population, on some grounds, whatever grounds, legal or illegal, were

22 imprisoned?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And that, for the most part, those people were Muslims and Croats

25 within the framework of party and certain armed formations; yes or no?

Page 2880

1 A. No.

2 Q. During your incarceration, did anyone in the police force or in

3 the TO tell you why you were under detention?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what was the reason they gave?

6 A. They mentioned certain lists.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bicic, can you confirm the fact that during your

8 education, both the Latin and Cyrillic scripts were equally used, used on

9 an equal footing at school?

10 A. I don't know how much they were equally used, but we were taught

11 both, yes.

12 Q. Yes, that's what I'm asking you. So you can read and write in

13 Cyrillic, can you not?

14 A. I use the Latin script myself.

15 Q. Yes, but I assume that during your years at school you had to

16 write certain things in Cyrillic.

17 A. I used the Cyrillic script only when I had to.

18 Q. That's just what I wanted to hear from you, what I was asking.

19 Thank you.

20 One more question, and that completes my cross-examination.

21 Mr. Bicic, I'm now going to, with the usher's assistance, show you part of

22 your statement to read. It is the statement you gave to the Prosecution

23 on the 7th of March, 1998 and it is in your mother tongue. Just one

24 sentence, and the sentence has been marked in black. Would you please

25 read out that sentence.

Page 2881

1 A. All I can do --

2 MR. PANTELIC: I can just make a reference that the B/C/S version

3 is number 00637131, and that is the, well, fourth paragraph. But

4 actually, I don't know. Is it -- relates to English version, because the

5 kind of typing is different, so I really don't know.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: It's all right. You can go ahead with the witness.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bicic, would you read out the portion that

9 has been circled in black.

10 A. [As read] "One of the detainees who were brought to the room after

11 me was Dzevad Jesofovic who came from a wealthy family in Bosanski Samac.

12 He was never beaten but was forced to watch every day how they mistreated

13 us. I think this was a strategy, because after he was released, Dragan

14 Djordjevic, one of the worst soldiers and a member of the Sivi Vukovi,

15 married his sister. I believe he wanted to scare the sister so that she

16 did not dare to deny marrying him."

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bicic. Do you know Dragan Djordjevic?

18 A. No. I heard that somebody nicknamed Crni, meaning "black," was

19 one of the commanders of that infamous unit and that his name was Dragan

20 Djordjevic, aka Crni. I didn't know him personally, or, rather, I don't

21 know if I ever personally met him.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Just a moment, Your Honour, to check the

23 translation.

24 Q. [Interpretation] You mentioned, Mr. Bicic, that he was the

25 commander or member of the infamous unit known as the Sivi Vukovi, or Grey

Page 2882

1 Wolves; is that right?

2 A. That's what I heard.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I've finished my

5 cross-examination.

6 [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bicic.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: I want to find out whether the other counsel has

8 questions. Yes. I can go ahead.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Good day, Your Honours.

10 Good day, Mr. Bicic.

11 On behalf of the Mr. Zaric's defence, I will cross-examine

12 Mr. Bicic, if it pleases Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, go ahead.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Bicic. I'm Attorney

16 Aleksandar Lazarevic, one of the Defence counsel for Mr. Simo Zaric, and

17 if you don't mind, I would like to put a few questions to you, first of

18 all for the clarification of some matters that you have already mentioned

19 in your testimony.

20 I wish to add that on behalf of my client and on my own behalf, I

21 wish to express our condolences for everything you have experienced and

22 gone through during the war in the hope that something like this will

23 never happen again, either on the territory of the former Yugoslavia or

24 elsewhere.

25 And now if we may, I will start with my questions. I would like

Page 2883

1 to start from what you mentioned in your testimony, and that is that you

2 learned of the existence of the 4th Detachment a few months before the

3 conflict broke out, which was the 17th of April, 1992. Is this correct?

4 A. I don't know whether I said a few months, but it was some time.

5 How long it was --

6 Q. If I can just jog your memory. It's on the transcript of the 22nd

7 of October, 2001, page 2626, line 20, where you say: [In English] "I

8 think several months prior to the conflict, before the war, before the

9 occupation."

10 [Interpretation] That was your reply to the question put to you by

11 Ms. Reidy; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, more or less.

13 Q. I would --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, do pause. Remember to pause so that the

15 answer from the witness can be completed by the interpreters.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I have it in mind.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Did you learn of the existence of the

18 4th Detachment through the media, among other methods?

19 A. I think not.

20 Q. Did you perhaps listen to the broadcasts of Radio Samac?

21 A. Very rarely.

22 Q. Can we agree, however, that the existence of the 4th Detachment

23 was common knowledge?

24 A. Yes, we can.

25 Q. Do you know perhaps that the headquarters of the 4th Detachment

Page 2884

1 was in the building of SIT, the Samac Textile Factory?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Perhaps I can refresh your memory. Do you remember that in front

4 of the building of the Samac Textile Industry there were two flags? One

5 was the flag of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The other one was of

6 the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as it was called at the

7 time. If you don't remember --

8 A. No, I don't remember.

9 Q. In that case, I will not insist.

10 With respect to the composition of the 4th Detachment, are you

11 able to confirm the fact that it was composed of members of all nations

12 and nationalities who lived in the town of Samac at the time?

13 A. I wouldn't know. I was not a member of it. And who the members

14 were, I allow for the possibility that they were all represented.

15 Q. Can we agree that the area of responsibility of the 4th Detachment

16 was only the town of Samac and that all the members of the 4th Detachment

17 were citizens of Samac?

18 A. That's another question I don't know how to answer.

19 Q. Thank you. I now wish to ask you about something you have already

20 mentioned in your statement or your testimony, your statement given to the

21 Office of the Prosecutor, and that is the following: Are you aware of the

22 fact that the commander of the 4th Detachment was Radovan Antic?

23 A. Yes, I heard that too, that one of the commanders was him. I

24 don't know exactly.

25 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that the deputy commander of

Page 2885

1 the 4th Detachment was Jovo Savic?

2 A. I don't know that. I don't remember that.

3 Q. Let me ask you whether you know if Simo Zaric was an assistant

4 commander for security, information, intelligence, and morals.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it "morals" or "morale"?

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: "Morale."

7 A. I can reply that I only heard that he was one of the commanders.

8 But what function he carried out exactly, I don't know.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bicic. I will now move on to another topic which

11 you mentioned in your statement, and those are the meetings or rallies

12 held in the town of Samac before the 17th of April, before the hostilities

13 broke out.

14 In your statement, you mentioned that several such rallies were

15 held, that you were present at one of them. Can we agree that at all

16 those meetings or rallies, the unanimous message was an appeal to preserve

17 peace and prevent the outbreak of hostilities?

18 A. I attended only one such rally.

19 Q. Thank you. We will now discuss that rally in greater detail. You

20 said it was about seven days before. Can we be more precise than that?

21 Would you agree that it was held on the 7th of April, 1992, the one you

22 attended?

23 A. I couldn't be more precise.

24 Q. You could not be more precise than you were before?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2886

1 Q. Well, let us try to recall this, then, to recall some of the

2 speakers at that rally. You said that at that rally, one of the speakers

3 was an elderly Muslim lady. Can we agree that this was Pakiza Seidic,

4 also known as Kiza, who has been active in the liberation struggle in

5 World War II? Is that the person you referred to?

6 A. Yes, that was the person I referred to. Her two sons were Serbian

7 policemen, and they guarded us when we were locked up in the camp, in the

8 primary school.

9 Q. Yes. Yes, you mentioned that.

10 I also wish to ask you whether one of the speakers at that rally

11 was Mesud Nogic, a Muslim from Bosanski Samac.

12 A. I think yes. I think I remember him speaking, yes.

13 Q. Thank you. At that meeting, at that rally, was one of the

14 speakers Marko Filipovic, a Croat from Bosanski Samac who was a

15 representative in the Municipal Assembly in Bosanski Samac?

16 A. I can't remember this because I don't think I was present

17 throughout the rally.

18 Q. I will put a few names of speakers to you. I have information

19 that they spoke of [as interpreted] the rally, so please tell me whether

20 you remember or not whether each of them spoke: Lazar Blagojevic?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. Sukreta Porobic, a Muslim lady from Bosanski Samac. She used to

23 be the president of the trade union in Bosanski Samac. Do you remember

24 her?

25 A. I remember her, but I don't remember that I was there while she

Page 2887

1 spoke. I don't remember hearing her speech.

2 Q. Huso Dedic, a metal worker from Bosanski Samac?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. And finally, was one of the speakers at that rally Ibrahim Salkic,

5 Ibela? Did he take the floor at his own request?

6 A. It's quite possible, but I really don't remember all the speakers.

7 Q. I will not, of course, insist. I wish to ask you whether at that

8 meeting an appeal was made to the citizens not to leave Bosanski Samac.

9 Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, more or less; at least while I was there.

11 Q. Thank you. And in connection with this rally and some other

12 rallies that were held, I wish to put just one more question to you about

13 this: The nature of these rallies was to promote peace; is that correct?

14 Can we agree on that?

15 A. Yes. Yes. They had that character.

16 Q. And the organisation of the rally - I'm referring to the one you

17 attended - it was not organised by the HDZ?

18 A. I don't know who organised it.

19 Q. I wanted to ask you about the SDA or the SDS. Did any of these

20 political parties organise that rally?

21 A. I don't know who organised the rally.

22 Q. Thank you. Let us now move on to another topic. I know that it

23 is difficult for you to talk about this once again, but for the sake of

24 clarification - I do apologise - I have to take you back yet again to

25 those events. I am referring to the 18th, when, according to what you

Page 2888

1 said, people in military uniform burst into your house, arrested you, and

2 looted your house. That's what you said; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, and I also said that they beat us.

4 Q. Yes. I apologise. I did not leave that out intentionally. I

5 wanted to ask you about the uniforms these men wore. According to the

6 information you provided, you served your military service in the JNA, is

7 that correct, in Sarajevo?

8 A. No. In Karlovac.

9 Q. I apologise. In Karlovac. I wish to ask you: The uniforms these

10 men wore, were these JNA uniforms? I'm referring to the olive-grey

11 uniforms.

12 A. I think they were military uniforms.

13 Q. I apologise. I may not have put my question with sufficient

14 precision. Were they olive-grey uniforms of the JNA, or were they

15 camouflage uniforms?

16 A. It's possible there were both kinds of uniforms, because there was

17 more than one kind.

18 Q. Did you see any patches on these uniforms, for example, something

19 like Grey Wolves, White Eagles, or something of that sort?

20 A. I think some of them did have insignia of some sort, but I cannot

21 recall now. I wouldn't be able to say now what sort of patches they were.

22 Q. Just one more question in this connection: Do you remember what

23 sort of caps they had on their heads?

24 A. I can't remember that either. I only remember that some of them

25 had masks and some had paint on their faces, some sort of black paint or

Page 2889

1 dark green. It's hard to say now at this moment, to be precise.

2 Q. So I'm to understand you don't remember what sort of caps they

3 wore?

4 A. That's correct. I don't remember.

5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bicic, you described in detail the beatings and

6 torture that you and the other prisoners underwent in the building of the

7 Territorial Defence. There is no doubt as to the extent to which your

8 physical integrity and your human dignity and your mental health were

9 threatened by this. There is only one matter I would like to clarify in

10 this connection. After the murder of the unfortunate Dikan and the

11 threats that were made against you and your brother by Lugar, can we agree

12 that there was a realistic threat to your life and the life of your

13 brother at that point?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can we agree further that there was a real danger that the other

16 prisoners could be killed, just as the unfortunate Dikan had been?

17 A. That danger existed until the moment of my exchange.

18 Q. Of course.

19 A. Throughout all this time.

20 Q. Well, I was referring to the moment when a murder happened before

21 your very eyes, for no reason at all. And when you were taken out and

22 that was said to you, I mean to say was the threat even more real at that

23 moment?

24 A. Yes, of course.

25 Q. I now wish to ask you whether we can agree that with your transfer

Page 2890

1 to Brcko, further killings and further terror over the prisoners in the

2 Territorial Defence building by Lugar, Zec, and others, as you call them,

3 people from Serbia, was prevented.

4 A. The way I would answer this is as follows: At that moment, yes,

5 but one of the people who were left out of our group - I knew that man.

6 He was a policeman of Croatian ethnicity. His name was Luka - was killed,

7 and at that moment it seemed that it was better for us to go anywhere but

8 where we were.

9 Q. Thank you. That's exactly what I was getting at.

10 Mr. Bicic, in your statement given to the Prosecutor of The Hague

11 Tribunal on the 7th of March, 1998, you said that Simo Zaric was in charge

12 of the transfer, and that, of course, means the transfer to Brcko. Is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's what I said. I think that we had information to that

15 effect.

16 Q. And that brings me precisely to my next question: Did you hear

17 about the fact that Simo Zaric was in charge of transport that afternoon

18 when Simo Zaric entered the TO premises and told the prisoners that they

19 were to go to Brcko for their own safety and security and protection from

20 further torture? What I'm asking you is: Do you have direct knowledge

21 about that? Did you see Zaric on that occasion and hear him say it?

22 A. The frankest answer that I can give would be that I don't

23 remember. I cannot remember. I allow for that possibility. That's

24 perhaps the way in which we learnt about this, but you must realise that I

25 was in a state of shock after what had happened that day.

Page 2891

1 Q. Yes, I understand you completely, and I don't insist upon

2 anything. I won't insist further on that fact.

3 Do you happen to remember Mihajlo Topolovac that day, that he

4 called out people's names from the list?

5 A. I think I remember. I seem to remember that, yes.

6 Q. Thank you. In the TO building, did -- were you detainees taken

7 over by the military police from Brcko?

8 A. I think that's right, yes.

9 Q. I should now like to focus on Brcko and to ask you about a few

10 details. You have told us quite a lot in your statement about that, but I

11 would just like to ask you the following: The conditions of your

12 detention in Brcko - and when I say this, I have in mind what you yourself

13 said about being allowed to wash, that there were fewer of you in the

14 cells, that some people received medical assistance, some of the

15 detainees - may we agree, then, that the conditions in Brcko were far

16 better than they had been at the TO?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. May we also agree that the attitude that the soldiers and officers

19 had in the barracks in Brcko towards you and the other prisoners were

20 better than what they had been at the TO? I apologise. Maybe I'm asking

21 you to compare two evils, the lesser of two evils, but I think that we can

22 go ahead, don't you, and see?

23 A. Well, yes, you noted that very well. Toward me personally, the

24 conduct was much better later than it was in the TO. But they did beat

25 other prisoners, and we heard that.

Page 2892

1 Q. Yes. I was asking about your own personal experience, and you

2 have answered me that question. Thank you.

3 I'd like to clarify one more point, something that Mr. Pantelic

4 brought up in his cross-examination. You said on the occasion that in

5 Brcko, when you arrived, they took your personal documents, ID documents,

6 away from you and, if I remember correctly, some money, some small monies

7 that had remained after they had previously looted you. Can we then agree

8 that they weren't any very valuable things that were taken away from you

9 on that occasion?

10 A. Yes, we can agree there. For the most part, they were documents,

11 but that was very valuable for me. But if you're talking about the

12 material sense --

13 Q. Yes, I am; material.

14 A. Then, no, they weren't very valuable.

15 Q. Thank you. During your sojourn in Brcko, you gave a statement to

16 Mr. Simo Zaric, and I don't think that is in dispute.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I should just like to ask now the

18 usher's assistance with that statement. May we have your statement placed

19 on the ELMO, please.

20 [In English] Your Honours, this evidence has the number P28 ter.

21 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. Just for the record, that was the

22 ID number, not the exhibit number.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: ID number.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It was for identification.

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: And this was the document that was shown to the

Page 2893

1 witness by the Office of the Prosecutor. So I don't have anything.


3 MR. LAZAREVIC: I would kindly ask the B/C/S version on the ELMO

4 or, rather, the B/C/S version to be given to the witness and the English

5 version on the ELMO.


7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Bicic, I'm not going to question you at length about whether

9 it is your statement or not and all the rest of it, but could you read out

10 the first sentence of that statement of yours if that is not a problem?

11 A. No, it is not a problem.

12 Q. Yes, it's not a very good copy. I apologise for that, but please

13 do your best.

14 A. I shall try.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. "In the last few months, according to my knowledge, arming of the

17 residents of all ethnicity on various bases has started, some of them

18 through political parties, some of them through Territorial Defence, some

19 of them through the JNA."

20 Q. Thank you. Is that the same thing you said here in this courtroom

21 before this Trial Chamber in the -- in your testimony here?

22 A. I don't know if it is exactly the same, but the gist of it, the

23 sense of it, the meaning of it is. Yes, we could put it that way more or

24 less.

25 Q. I don't want you to misunderstand me. I am not asking you whether

Page 2894

1 every word is the same as the words in the statement, but the gist of it.

2 Is it the meaning of it the same in the statement you gave and in your

3 testimony here before the Tribunal?

4 A. Roughly, yes.

5 Q. Thank you. And taking a look at the second sentence where you say

6 that "My brother Muhamed and I have decided to get some weapons ..." et

7 cetera -- I don't want to have to read it all out. But you bought two

8 automatic guns, and the price was 1.400 Deutschemarks; is that true too?

9 A. Yes, what you've just said is correct. I don't know what was in

10 between.

11 Q. Well, let's not insist upon the actual wording which goes: "At

12 the beginning of April, we bought ..." et cetera, et cetera.

13 It also says here that "It was purchased from two guys from the

14 Odzak municipality territory. One of the guy's names was Marko, and the

15 second guy was `Simo.'" Is that correct? I think that you said that here

16 as well.

17 A. Well, my answer is as follows: It was a statement which I gave to

18 Mr. Zaric in Brcko.

19 Q. Yes, absolutely so.

20 A. But not of my own free will, again.

21 Q. Mr. Bicic, I completely agree that the conditions under which you

22 gave the statement and everything else was not - how shall I put it? - was

23 not a rose garden. It was not a rosy situation.

24 A. May I say something else in connection to the statement? I had to

25 give it, like all the previous ones, but I said that nobody beat me;

Page 2895

1 however, I had to give it generally in the same context that I gave my

2 previous statements, because I thought that they would compare the

3 different versions.

4 Q. Yes, I agree with you completely, and I am not challenging what

5 you said. All I wanted to do was to conclude one point on the basis of

6 that statement, and that is: Did Mr. Zaric, in view of the fact that he

7 typed out the statement on the typewriter, which is what you said, did he

8 write down what you said to him?

9 A. I assume so, yes.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bicic. I have no further questions for you.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination by the Prosecution?

13 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. I have a few questions.

14 Re-examined by Ms. Reidy:

15 Q. Mr. Bicic, this morning Mr. Lukic, Defence counsel for Miroslav

16 Tadic, showed you a list which was given Exhibit number D12/3, and you, I

17 think, identified your name on it, and you identified two or three other

18 people who you said that you felt pretty certain they had been part of

19 your group. Do you remember that document, or would you like to see it

20 again to refresh your memory?

21 A. I remember that.

22 Q. Mr. Lukic said to you that you mightn't have seen it before, but

23 he never actually asked the question had you seen that before. So could I

24 just clarify that for the record. Had you ever actually seen that list

25 presented to you before?

Page 2896

1 A. I hadn't seen that list. I wasn't in a position to have seen it.

2 Q. So I take it that anything that you read off the list or into the

3 record, you were just commenting on now for the first time and you don't

4 know anything else about the background of this document?

5 A. Yes, you could put it that way.

6 Q. At one stage, you were asked to read out what was beside, I

7 think -- I think it was number 46, and you said what was written was

8 "no." Do you know what "no" means?

9 A. I assume I do, although I don't really know with certainty. But I

10 think I do.

11 Q. If you want to tell us what you think it means, please go ahead.

12 And when you say you think, does that mean you're speculating as to its

13 meaning?

14 A. Well, before that, I read another number and a name beside it, and

15 next to the name, it said that he did not want to go for the exchange.

16 Now, I don't know whether, thinking along those lines, I thought that

17 number 46 was "no," meaning that he did not want to be exchanged. I

18 assume that to be the case.

19 Q. The name that you read out at number 44 - sorry - at number 44 --

20 I apologise, Mr. Bicic. I don't have again the list in front of me, so I

21 don't know the name of number 44. Can you recall at this stage whether

22 that name meant anything to you and -- or do you recall the name beside

23 which was written "no"?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Does the witness have the document in front of him?

25 Because it's a bit too much, I think.

Page 2897

1 MS. REIDY: Yes, okay.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: If we are going to have so many questions, it's

3 better that he is given the document.

4 MS. REIDY: And perhaps if the usher could put the document on the

5 ELMO, yes, the second page of it. Thank you.

6 Q. Number 44. Perhaps you could read out the name of the person at

7 44.

8 A. As far as it is legible, it says "Vukovic J.," "Stipo" or "Stipe."

9 Q. Do you know this person?

10 A. I can't remember the name.

11 Q. Okay. Do I just take it that that name means nothing to you at

12 the moment?

13 A. I can't remember. No, not at this point in time.

14 Q. That's fine. I won't ask you any more questions. Okay. Again --

15 MS. REIDY: Sorry. I'm finished now with that document, and I

16 won't ask any more questions.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel for the Defence.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Excuse me, Your Honours. It was probably my

19 mistake that I forgot to ask the registrar to give me a number for the

20 document that I have just shown to the witness.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Which document?

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: For the document P28 ter, because it

23 has -- identification. Just the identification number, and I wanted

24 to ...

25 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought it has a number for identification

Page 2898

1 purposes, for identification only.

2 THE REGISTRAR: It has Prosecution identification number P28ID.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: It was identified.


5 JUDGE MUMBA: But it's not admitted into evidence.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: So I would like it to be admitted by the Defence

7 of Mr. Zaric, and that's why I asked for this number.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Any objection?

9 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I don't have an objection to the document

10 in the B/C/S version at the moment. However, the translation, while a

11 good translation is not - what do they say? - court certified. And I

12 think what I suggested to the counsel, I know it's been -- copies have

13 been requested that the actual -- the English translation accompanying it

14 at the moment is a working tool. I've had my language assistant --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see.

16 MS. REIDY: -- check it. And then the --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: The English translation, the formal English

18 translation, is yet to be --

19 MS. REIDY: Exactly.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: -- produced. Okay. Yes. But you said you have no

21 objection to the document being admitted into evidence.

22 MS. REIDY: I have no objection. I think the client has

23 identified his statement.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So we'll get the English, the formal English

25 translation later. Can we have the number?

Page 2899

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 THE REGISTRAR: The number for the document is Defence Exhibit

3 D8/4 ter.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

5 Yes. Re-examination continues.

6 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

7 Q. Again, Mr. Bicic, when Mr. Lukic was questioning you, he asked you

8 to comment on the state that you found your house in when you went back to

9 Samac, and you answered that you had known that for a time, there was some

10 headquarters in your house, and what kind of headquarters it was, you

11 wouldn't know. And I'd like to clarify: What exactly was it that you

12 found out your house had been used for?

13 A. According to what I learnt from the people who stayed on in Samac,

14 and after my exchange, and who left afterwards, I heard that there was

15 some headquarters, whether military or paramilitary or whatever. I even

16 heard that one of the guards, an elderly man, an ethnic Serb, that he was

17 in front of my house and that he had a sort of guardhouse, something like

18 that there, and that he had a heart attack there. I assume that they had

19 some sort of command or headquarters or something like that. I heard that

20 from the people who remained there. I assume that was so, if they had

21 this sort of guardhouse in front of my house. I don't know why they

22 actually opted for my house, but that's what I heard from some people, the

23 people who left afterwards.

24 Q. Did you hear -- when you got this information, was it clear to you

25 whether it was the military that had acquired your house, or it had been

Page 2900

1 confiscated by the civilian authorities, like you discussed with your

2 pizzeria?

3 A. I heard about that in the context of some sort of military

4 command. Now, what exact military command and what the unit was, what

5 kind of formation, I wasn't really interested, nor was I specifically

6 told.

7 Q. And then just one last question. You've also in this -- you had

8 said before that you had initiated proceedings in which to get your house

9 reinstated to the family. In the context of those proceedings, did any

10 more information come to your knowledge about the use of your house as a

11 headquarters?

12 A. No, I didn't learn of that.

13 Q. Thank you. And my final question in relation to the

14 cross-examination by Mr. Lukic is your answer to him when he said, "Did

15 you want to be exchanged; yes or no?" and you said "yes." My question

16 is: If you had not been detained on the 18th of April, and had you not

17 spent a number of months in detention, where you were beaten for several

18 months, and your property was looted, as you saw when you visited your

19 house, would you have wanted to have been exchanged and left Bosanski

20 Samac?

21 A. Could you repeat that question, please? And I should like the

22 interpreters to speak a little more loudly, please, to speak up.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I would also like it to be repeated. I hope

24 it's not speculation, asking the witness to speculate.

25 MS. REIDY: Okay. Your Honour, would you like me to repeat the

Page 2901

1 question as I've said it, or would you like me to rephrase it in a way

2 that --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: I think, yes --

4 MS. REIDY: -- is not -- okay.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: -- so that the witness is not asked to speculate.

6 MS. REIDY: Okay.

7 Q. Again, Mr. Bicic, I don't want you -- I don't want you to

8 speculate, but these are your feelings, or your impression, as you said.

9 He said, "Did you want to be exchanged; yes or no?" My question was: Did

10 the -- you answered it -- well, sorry. Mr. Lukic's question was: "Did

11 you want to be exchanged?" and you answered, "Yes." I guess my question

12 is: Was the reason you wanted to be exchanged -- did the fact that you

13 were -- had been imprisoned, and you had been imprisoned for several

14 months, and that you had been beaten during that detention, and that your

15 property had been looted, did that have an impact on whether or not you

16 wanted to be exchanged?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, before the witness answers.

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. A leading

19 question. Could the Prosecutor reformulate her question, sticking to the

20 facts, not opinions. Thank you.

21 MS. REIDY: I understand the Defence -- I don't believe it was

22 leading because I didn't suggest an answer, but I will repeat the

23 question.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: I think If -- if -- yes.

25 MS. REIDY: And I'm just asking for the witness's opinion on a

Page 2902

1 question that had already been asked in cross by Defence counsel. I think

2 maybe the way I lastly phrased the question, if I may have one more

3 attempt at it, was he has testified that he was imprisoned and that he was

4 beaten during that detention, and my question is: Is it -- did that have

5 an impact on whether you wanted to leave? And I think that's a very

6 straightforward question.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: I think what you should ask him is when he answered

8 yes, he wanted to be exchanged, of course my understanding was that

9 because of what had happened to him. So just ask him to clarify what he

10 meant by giving that answer when he was cross-examined. I think that will

11 be -- will get the answer maybe you need or the answer -- it will clarify

12 his state of mind then --

13 MS. REIDY: Okay.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: -- and as to what he meant when he answered that he

15 wanted to be exchanged.

16 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

17 Q. Mr. Bicic, I hope that you have been following that exchange, and

18 I think Her Honour Judge Mumba has put that very well.

19 A. Yes, I heard it.

20 Q. Basically what I'd like to know is you gave an answer yes, you

21 wanted to be exchanged. What was your -- why did you want to be

22 exchanged? What was your state of mind at that time when you said you

23 wanted to be exchanged?

24 A. I'm going to answer that in the following way -- let me take the

25 first part first. I wasn't asked whether I wanted to be exchange. My

Page 2903

1 name was simply read out, which meant that I was on the exchange list, and

2 I was beaten very severely then. And even without that, I think that the

3 situation was far from rosy for me not to want to go to be exchanged.

4 Therefore, what I'm saying is that I whole-heartedly embraced the chance

5 to be exchanged and considered that that was the only way at that time to

6 save my life.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bicic, and I have no more questions on the cross of

8 Mr. Lukic.

9 MS. REIDY: Sorry. I do have just some questions on the cross of

10 Mr. Pantelic and Mr. Lazarevic, and that would then be the end of the

11 Prosecution redirect.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Go ahead.


14 Q. I now turn to the cross of Mr. Pantelic, Defence counsel for

15 Blagoje Simic.

16 Mr. Bicic, you were also shown two documents by Mr. Pantelic.

17 They were given Exhibit number D16/1 and D17/1, and they were alleged to

18 relate to -- and these are identification numbers. And they were alleged

19 to relate to SDA plans or groups. Would you like to see those documents

20 again?

21 MR. REIDY: I think maybe the witness could just be shown them so

22 that we're clear.

23 Q. Again -- again these were put to you, but I -- I don't believe it

24 was ever put to you. Have you actually before today ever seen these

25 documents, Mr. Bicic?

Page 2904

1 A. No, I haven't seen them. But may I make a brief comment in

2 respect of those documents --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, go ahead.

4 A. -- with your permission?

5 As far as my name on this document is concerned, where it says

6 "Communications Section," I think that that piece of information is in

7 the Territorial Defence. That is to say, I'm certain that it was noted

8 down somewhere that I had been recruited some 20 years ago now, or even

9 more, and that that was the branch of the army I served in when I did my

10 military service in the Yugoslav People's Army, although I was in the

11 section for a very short period of time, because I was in the catering

12 business. So they transferred me to the army mess or restaurant, and

13 that's where I worked throughout my military service, at the army

14 restaurant.

15 So as far as the communications section is concerned and my name

16 on it, that piece of information was probably taken over. Now, who

17 compiled this list, I can't say. This is the first time I'm seeing it.

18 And as for my home telephone number, you could get it from any telephone

19 directly. It was not a confidential number. So I don't know about the

20 list, and I don't know who compiled the list. I allow that it was one of

21 the lists according to which they were accusing me and charging me with

22 while I was incarcerated.

23 As for the second list, the Hunters' section, that, too, I don't

24 know who compiled. And I can see that at the bottom where it says

25 "Reserve," with my brother's name and his home number, but once again, I

Page 2905

1 don't know about this list. You'll have to ask him that. But it is

2 unknown to me.

3 Q. Thank you. And that -- well, just to clarify. I think you might

4 have answered my question, but you did say to Mr. Pantelic that during

5 your interrogations you were told that you were on some lists. Were you

6 ever, during your interrogation, shown those lists which you were alleged

7 to -- to be on? Were you ever confronted with them?

8 A. I never saw any list nor was I confronted with them. And let me

9 tell you, I wasn't in a position to ask to be confronted with them, to be

10 shown them, that is.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]


13 Q. Mr. Bicic, could you just -- well, maybe just clarify for us,

14 then. You said you weren't in a position to ask to be confronted with

15 them. Did you ever attempt to see them?

16 A. It never entered my head to ask for anything like that.

17 Q. Thank you. And finally, again Mr. Pantelic asked you at some

18 length about the motivation behind your beatings and to read you -- read

19 various sections from your statement, and he said to you that was it your

20 impression at the time they were -- that the beatings were for economic

21 reasons. You said, "Well, not exactly." He read from your statement

22 where you said that the beatings in the TO also had an economic purpose,

23 and again you said that at the beginning you could agree that the

24 mistreatment was for the seizing and looting of money, et cetera.

25 Mr. Pantelic, I said, put to you that that was -- it was the

Page 2906

1 impression that you had that it was all economic. Were there also people

2 who didn't have your wealth, in the TO incarcerated with you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were they left alone, or were they also the recipient of

5 beatings?

6 A. They beat them too.

7 Q. Would it be fair to say, then, that they beat you and then took

8 advantage of the fact that you also had money, or would that be a

9 misstatement?

10 A. When I mentioned --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The way this question has been put

13 seems to me to be a leading question. Could it be put again?

14 JUDGE MUMBA: There is nothing wrong with the question as it is

15 put in cross-examination. This is cross-examination.

16 A. When I said that there was a lucrative reason for these beatings

17 and maltreatment, first of all, I spoke for myself, about my own case, and

18 that was my view of the beatings or, rather, my comment about the beatings

19 and the maltreatment.

20 I also said, however, that this continued even later, when we were

21 brought back to Samac, when there was nothing left for them to take from

22 me or to steal from me, because they had already taken hold of everything.


24 Q. Thank you. And now I just have, I think, approximately three

25 questions which concern the cross-examination conducted by Mr. Lazarevic

Page 2907

1 on behalf of his client, Simo Zaric.

2 Mr. Lazarevic did ask you -- ask you about the nature of the

3 uniforms that you'd said people had been wearing. Can I ask you whether ,

4 if you remember, that any of the people in military uniform, whether those

5 who arrested you or those in the TO, if they ever wore any special, say,

6 something on the shoulder, on the shoulder of their uniform?

7 A. I couldn't tell you that now.

8 Q. You mentioned a police officer called Luka, who you said also died

9 in detention. Could you tell me when he died? Roughly. Sorry, maybe

10 it's easier for you to tell us where he died. In the TO or one of the

11 other locations?

12 A. Where he died, I can't say exactly, because we had been taken from

13 Samac to Brcko and then to Bijeljina. But when we were brought back to

14 Samac, we heard that he had been killed. How he was killed is something I

15 can't say. I don't know whether he succumbed to injuries after a beating

16 or whether he was shot. I wouldn't know that. The only thing I know is

17 that he was one of our group and that he was left behind with a few other

18 people when they took us to Brcko. I think Mr. Izet Izetbegovic was with

19 him and a few others.

20 Q. Thank you. One -- another thing. You said when you arrived in

21 Brcko -- Mr. Lazarevic said to you that they had taken away some items

22 that you had, and you said indeed that they hadn't taken anything of

23 material value from you but that your documents were valuable. Did you

24 have anything of material value, apart from your documents, left to take?

25 A. Well, it was so insignificant. I happened to have in the back

Page 2908

1 pocket of my trousers my personal identity card, my weapon licence, and a

2 few banknotes of small value. I happened to have that in the back pocket

3 of my trousers, and this had not been confiscated previously. I can't

4 speak of money being taken away, but documents were taken away which were

5 never restored to me; not only to me but to all of us who were there. And

6 as far as I know, at least the people I know have not had their belongings

7 returned to them either. What they took from others, I don't know.

8 Q. Certainly. And I just want you to tell me about what was taken

9 from you. Did you have anything of value with you - and I talk about

10 monetary value - which they allowed you to keep?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. REIDY: And I do have one more question related to the

14 statement. Now, I understand that the Defence have moved to have it on

15 the record. So this is Defence document D8/4, I believe, and perhaps that

16 could be shown to the witness.

17 Q. Mr. Bicic, can I ask you to go to what I think is the last

18 paragraph of your statement? Not the very last sentence but the last

19 paragraph.

20 A. Yes. It begins with: "Having in mind that the pizzeria I

21 won ...." Is that it?

22 Q. Okay. That's exactly the paragraph I'm talking about. Well,

23 perhaps could I just ask you to read out just that sentence, the one you

24 started with.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: The one sentence or the whole paragraph?

Page 2909

1 MS. REIDY: Sorry. I think -- well, you can either -- I think

2 that the one sentence is sufficient, or if you prefer the full paragraph

3 on the record, I can also ask that, but just the first sentence of the

4 paragraph. I believe the paragraph contains two sentences.

5 Q. If you can just read out the first sentence, that is fine.

6 A. I will try, as far as it's legible.

7 [As read] "Bearing in mind that the pizzeria I own was a gathering

8 place for all those who wanted to come in, there were, I am sure, persons

9 there who were prone to commit criminal acts, and so I may have been

10 mistreated in these matters."

11 That would be the first sentence.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Just on that, can I ask you whether you

13 volunteered the information that because some people could -- who were

14 criminals could have come to the pizzeria or whether it was suggested to

15 you that, as Mr. Todorovic you said had done, that there were people who

16 had come to your pizzeria and were gathering? Do you remember asking

17 who -- how did that come to be in the statement?

18 A. I remember how it came to be in the statement. No suggestion was

19 made to me, but I said that this was a statement I had to make to fit into

20 the context of the other statements I had made before when they tried to

21 accuse me of procuring weapons, even dealing in weapons. And I don't know

22 whether that was the rule, for most of us to be accused of those things,

23 but in Brcko, I had received threats. Allegedly some young man from

24 Gradacac had been arrested at the checkpoint in Crkvina, the checkpoint I

25 mentioned where I had been searched, and that in the booth of their car,

Page 2910

1 some weapons had been found, some automatic rifles. And allegedly they

2 were accusing me of this, because these young men were later locked up, as

3 I heard, in Pelagicevo, in a military prison or whatever it was there, and

4 allegedly they said, or they were made to say under coercion, that they

5 had procured these weapons in the pizzeria. So I allowed for the

6 possibility that someone who was dealing in weapons and someone else who

7 was buying weapons might have been customers of mine and that maybe they

8 succeeded in carrying out this transaction - and that was something I had

9 no interest in and could have no influence over - and that they may have

10 exchanged money for weapons. So I allow for the possibility that they

11 could have discussed it, negotiated, because it's quite understandable

12 that people sit in catering establishments and discuss business.

13 So I had to say something to avoid being accused. If somebody had

14 been forced to make such a confession or if somebody claimed to have

15 bought weapons in my pizzeria, I had to say that that was possible but it

16 had nothing to do with me. So it was simply that in every statement, I

17 had to consider what I was going to write. And this one had to resemble

18 the previous ones, because I had the impression that they might be

19 compared, and if they differed, that I might have to pay for that dearly.

20 Q. Thank you very much. You said in your statement -- in your answer

21 there that "but in --" You said "but in Brcko I had received threats."

22 What you've just described to us, are those the threats that you received

23 in Brcko, or did you receive other threats in Brcko?

24 A. These were threats that were made to me in Brcko by people in

25 military uniform who, in the back part of the cell where I was, near the

Page 2911












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2912

1 window, hurled these accusations. I don't know who these people were, but

2 they probably had some connection with Pelagicevo. But if you want me to

3 be specific, I had no threats from Mr. Zaric.

4 Q. I just wanted to know who made the threats, and they were these

5 people in military uniform in your cell.

6 The last question, and then I'll be finished with my redirect,

7 is: You said also in that sentence that you read out -- or at least

8 contained in the sentence which you read out, you said: "That might be

9 the reason why I was mistreated in some matters." I don't know if that's

10 an accurate translation of what's written there, but my understanding of

11 that is that you said to Mr. Zaric that you had been mistreated or people

12 had been dealing with you in an improper way. Is that what you meant when

13 you said that, when you gave that statement? You said, "I was mistreated

14 in some matters."

15 A. Are you referring to the men in uniform in Brcko?

16 Q. No, sir. If you -- could you look at the statement in front of

17 you? You had just read out for our benefit on the record the first

18 sentence of the last paragraph. And you've given us an explanation of why

19 there's a reference to it that there was a possibility that people who

20 were criminals could also be in the pizzeria. Now I would just like you

21 to explain the latter part of that sentence, which I understand reads

22 something along the lines of: "That might be the reason why I was

23 mistreated in some parts, in some matters."

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel.

Page 2913

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the statement, it

2 doesn't say "mistreated." It says "I may have been treated differently."

3 So the sense is quite different from the one Ms. Reidy is giving it, in

4 B/C/S. So the interpretation is incorrect in the question.

5 MS. REIDY: Perhaps, Your Honours, with respect, the interpreters

6 could help us out, because I'm only going from the English translation.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's the problem of having, you know,

8 translations which are draft or inconclusive, because they can be quite

9 misleading.

10 MS. REIDY: Well, then, maybe the interpreters in the booth

11 could --


13 MS. REIDY: If they could read out --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. If they read it, if they read out the

15 Serbo-Croat.

16 MS. REIDY: -- very slowly, and then let the interpreters in the

17 booth tell us what the translation --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I see Mr. Pantelic.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, just as a matter of clarification

20 and a principle.

21 Actually, if -- correct me if I'm wrong, Ms. Reidy, please. The

22 official interpreters here, when following what he said in his native

23 language, no matter what the version of interpretation was submitted with

24 the original document, but these interpreters made mention of this word

25 "misinterpreted."

Page 2914

1 MR. ZECEVIC: "Mistreated."

2 MR. PANTELIC: "Mistreated," sorry. "Mistreated." So I mean, we

3 need clarification. So it's not a matter whether in one version or the

4 other version there is a misusing of word of translation, but let's hear

5 again maybe Mr. Bicic and then clarify these things. Thank you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I think the witness can read the sentence again, and

7 then the interpreters will interpret what he is reading in Serbo-Croat.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am going to read it, but I think

9 that there has been an error in the translation, because it says here: "In

10 some things." It ends with "wrongly treated in certain matters," and that

11 would be it. It would be wrong to say "maltreated," "mistreated."


13 Q. Thank you. So wrongly treated in some matters. And when you say

14 "wrongly treated," what does that mean, to be wrongly treated? Unfairly

15 accused or -- I withdraw that. Just can you explain what "wrongly

16 treated" means as opposed to "maltreated"?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I think what you want to ask the witness is

18 what he meant by that.

19 MS. REIDY: Okay.

20 Q. What did you mean by "wrongly treated"?

21 A. Well, I meant to say, that I had been accused of something that

22 had nothing to do with me. I meant false -- or rather, accusations that

23 were not true.

24 MS. REIDY: Thank you very much, and I think I have -- I have no

25 more questions on redirect. Thank you.

Page 2915

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Bicic, for giving evidence to the

2 Trial Chamber. You are now free, you are released, and you can leave.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to take this

4 opportunity to thank you cordially for giving me the opportunity to be a

5 witness at this Tribunal.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: You're most welcome.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: It's almost 1.00, and I think we can rise for lunch

9 hour and resume our proceedings at 1530 hours this afternoon.

10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.58 p.m.
















Page 2916

1 --- On resuming at 3.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the witness stand up and make the solemn

3 declaration, please.

4 MS. REIDY: Sorry, Your Honour.


6 MS. REIDY: There were one or two housekeeping matters which I was

7 instructed to raise before the witness gets sworn in, and it just has to

8 do with three documents which were to be handed up to the Trial Chamber.

9 And as I said, I just received advice that I should do it before the -- in

10 between witnesses. So if you would like me to do it, I can do it now in

11 the matter of a minute before the witness takes the oath.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So the witness can sit down. We have a few

13 matters to deal with.

14 Yes, you can go ahead.

15 MS. REIDY: Yes. Things will go very quickly. It's just a matter

16 of three documents. One is document with the Exhibit number P2N. It is a

17 map which was part of the first expert witness Robert Donia's

18 preparation. As I said, it was already given an exhibit number, but for

19 some reason it didn't get into the files of I believe what the Trial

20 Chamber has and the Registry has. So I now have four copies of it, a copy

21 each for the Trial Chamber and one for the Registry. A copy was already

22 given to the Senior Legal Officer and copies were given to Defence. So

23 for the record, I'd just like to hand up --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Yes.

25 MS. REIDY: -- the map with Exhibit number P2N on it. Why don't I

Page 2917

1 put all three together.

2 The second document is again part of Exhibit number P8 ter. P8

3 ter is the B/C/S version of one of the Official Gazettes from Bosanski

4 Samac. We have already handed up a number of translations relating to

5 that. There was, however, one article, article 136, which had been

6 omitted from that translation. It's simply a list of names. But I now

7 have it available, and again I'd like it to be added as part of P8. And

8 again, Defence counsel have a copy of it and I now have copies for the

9 Chamber and the Registry.


11 MS. REIDY: And finally, the last document I was asked to bring to

12 your attention was we have both the article official translations of it.

13 It is an article from the 12th of March, 1992 from Slobodna Bosna, which

14 again was raised in the testimony of Mr. Robert Donia. And as I said,

15 I've received one or two requests of when we would be submitting it, so I

16 have it here for submission, and I've also given copies to Defence. And I

17 understand this particular article doesn't have a particular status at the

18 moment, but I think that the Trial Chamber were at least interested in

19 viewing a copy of it.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: That was the document which was -- it hasn't been

21 admitted into evidence yet because we wanted to find out about the

22 source.

23 MS. REIDY: Exactly, Your Honour. Yes. It was a -- it has --

24 there is a document which has existed which has ID number 3 on it, and

25 then Mr. Donia said that he had first come across this when it was

Page 2918

1 reproduced in an article in a newspaper or in a magazine, and it is that

2 newspaper article and a full official translation of it which we propose

3 now just to make available, because, as I said, those are the instructions

4 I had received and that the Chamber was interested in having copies of it.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. All right.

6 MS. REIDY: May I just give all the folders to the usher and

7 that's the end of it. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: I think the other documents do have numbers

9 already. It's the newspaper article, the one which has just come in, part

10 of the evidence of Dr. Donia, which doesn't have an ID number.

11 MS. REIDY: That's correct, yes.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. I'll leave with the registry assistant to

13 look at them and then we'll have the ID number later. All right. We'll

14 have the number right now.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P29 ter for the B/C/S, and

16 P29 --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Which one is that? For the B/C/S, which one is

18 that?

19 THE REGISTRAR: P29 ter?

20 MS. REIDY: No. I think -- there were three documents which I --

21 that I've been requested to supply to the Chamber. One of them is a map.

22 That map was already given Exhibit number P2N - "N" as in night - and --

23 or in November. And then I gave another one, which is P8 ter. The B/C/S

24 version is already P8 ter. This is part of the P8 exhibit, or the English

25 version. And the last one, as I said, I don't -- it doesn't have an

Page 2919

1 exhibit number. I'm not sure it's necessary to give it one. It is part

2 of this ID document 3 collection, which status is yet -- is outstanding

3 for determination, is my understanding.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The one which is part of Dr. Donia's evidence.

5 MS. REIDY: Exactly. The newspaper article which he raised on the

6 stand.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. But we -- because that's the newspaper

8 article which is -- it's similar to the one that was identified, isn't

9 it?

10 MS. REIDY: It is the document -- it is the newspaper article

11 which Mr. Donia said that he had seen in Sarajevo, he had made a photocopy

12 of --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I see.

14 MS. REIDY: -- and that was his first contact with this particular

15 document.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So the one we have is the newspaper

17 version -- the magazine version, rather. I think we can have it given a

18 similar number with a stroke, either 1 or 2, A, B, I think, so that we can

19 distinguish it from --

20 MS. REIDY: -- A or something.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, so that we can distinguish it from the one

22 Dr. Donia actually looked at.

23 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have that?

25 THE REGISTRAR: It will be, then, P3A, and P3B for the English

Page 2920

1 translation, and A for the B/C/S.

2 MS. REIDY: Maybe, Your Honour, I might suggest it's ID3A for the

3 English version and then ID3A ter for the B/C/S version of the newspaper

4 article. I think that's probably consistent with the other exhibits.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: With the other one, yes.

6 MS. REIDY: If the Chamber is happy with that.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. That's fine.

8 THE REGISTRAR: If it's not admitted as an exhibit. Otherwise,

9 the ID -- if it's only for identification, it should be ID, but if it's an

10 exhibit, the ID should go --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: It's only for identification, yes.

12 The witness can stand up and make the solemn declaration.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Please sit down.

18 The Prosecution can proceed.

19 MR. WEINER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Phillip Weiner for the

20 Office of the Prosecutor.

21 Examined by Mr. Weiner:

22 Q. Would you state your name, please.

23 A. My name is Muhamed Bicic.

24 Q. How old are you?

25 A. I am 46.

Page 2921

1 Q. Where were you born, sir?

2 A. I was born in Bosanski Samac, in 1956, on the 8th of January.

3 Q. So you're going to be 46 in January?

4 A. Yes, I'll be 46 years old exactly in January.

5 Q. Are you married, sir?

6 A. Yes, I'm married.

7 Q. Do you have any children or grandchildren?

8 A. I have one daughter, and several months ago I got a grandson.

9 Q. Congratulations. Where did you go to school, sir?

10 A. Thank you.

11 Q. You're welcome.

12 A. I went to primary school in Bosanski Samac, and secondary catering

13 school in Tuzla, and I did my practical training in Gradacac, in a

14 department of that catering and hotel concern in Tuzla.

15 Q. When did you graduate from the hospitality or catering school in

16 Tuzla?

17 A. In 1971.

18 Q. Now, prior to April 18th, where did you live?

19 A. I lived in our family house in Bosanski Samac, and the street name

20 was Pere Bosica 56.

21 Q. And who did you live with?

22 A. I lived with my wife and my daughter, my brother, and my mother.

23 Q. And when you say your brother, was that Hasan Bicic, who just

24 testified here?

25 A. Yes, that's my brother.

Page 2922

1 Q. Sir, could you describe your house that you lived in?

2 A. It was a large family house of approximately 14 by 12 metres. It

3 had several storeys, and we all lived in it.

4 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that prior to April 18th, 1992, you had

5 lived your whole life in Bosanski Samac?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Sir, could you tell the Chamber: Were you involved in politics?

8 A. No, I was never involved in politics.

9 Q. Were you a member of any political party?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Are you a member of any national ethnic group?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Are you a practicing Muslim?

14 A. I am a Muslim, but I don't go to the mosques or do I practice my

15 religion, actually.

16 Q. Were you a member of the military service in April of 1992?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Had you completed your military service at some time?

19 A. Yes. I completed my military service in the Yugoslav People's

20 Army in the period between the 12th of April, 1974 and the 11th of June,

21 1975.

22 Q. What were you doing for work, sir?

23 A. I worked in the catering field.

24 Q. And did you, your wife, your brother, your family, own some

25 businesses?

Page 2923

1 A. Yes. We owned a catering establishment, a pizzeria, in fact, and

2 a coffee bar within its composition; I had a games shop in the centre of

3 town of Bosanski Samac; and my wife, together with me, owned a boutique in

4 the centre of Bosanski Samac itself.

5 Q. Were all these businesses located in Bosanski Samac?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you have businesses under construction in April 1992?

8 A. Yes. Added onto my family house, I had another catering

9 establishment which had almost been completed by the start of the conflict

10 and war.

11 Q. And your major business with your brother was the pizzeria. Could

12 you describe the pizzeria?

13 A. Yes. It was a large catering establishment. I think that it was

14 the best equipped in the whole area, both inside and outside, because we

15 had two terraces, one in front of the pizzeria, one behind. They were --

16 they had a nice fountain and looked very nice, and they had a grapevine

17 growing over the terraces, so that it was very pleasant to sit out on the

18 terraces.

19 Q. How many people could that restaurant hold?

20 A. With the hall inside and an area around the bar with standing

21 space plus the two terraces, I think it cold take about 200 customers.

22 Q. Now, sir, I ask you to look around the courtroom. Is there anyone

23 in this courtroom who would patronise your restaurant, your pizzeria?

24 A. Yes, there is.

25 Q. Could you please point them out, sir?

Page 2924

1 A. There was Mr. Pisarevic and Mr. Milan. From time to time, I would

2 see Mr. Tadic. But before, when we had a restaurant, we would see

3 Mr. Zaric in the restaurant, the one that we owned before the pizzeria.

4 Q. Other than Mr. Pisarevic, could you please identify or point to

5 Mr. Milan? Do you mean Milan Simic? Is that the person you're referring

6 to?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you please point out where he is and describe where he's

9 sitting?

10 A. He is sitting in the back row next to Mr. Tadic and next to the

11 policeman.

12 Q. And where is Mr. Tadic?

13 A. He is sitting to the left of Mr. Simic.

14 Q. And could you describe his face, Mr. Tadic's face?

15 A. Mr. Tadic has grey hair. He has a mustache. He is wearing

16 glasses.

17 Q. And could you please point out Mr. Zaric?

18 A. Mr. Zaric is sitting to the left of Mr. Tadic.

19 Q. And do you know a man by the name of Blagoje Simic?

20 A. He's sitting in front of them. He has a beard.

21 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may the record reflect that all four

22 defendants have been identified by this witness?



25 Q. Sir, did you own any firearms?

Page 2925

1 A. Yes. I owned a hunting rifle, and I also owned a pistol, and I

2 had the regular papers for them.

3 Q. Sir, did you belong to a hunting club in the area?

4 A. Yes, I was a member of the hunting club in the area, and its name

5 was Fazan, or pheasant, in Bosanski Samac.

6 Q. Sir, were you aware that a Territorial Defence was being

7 established in Bosanski Samac?

8 A. Yes. On one occasion, I heard about it.

9 Q. Did anyone ever ask you to join that?

10 A. In one particular conversation with Mr. Alija Fitozovic, he was

11 talking about the setting up of that Territorial Defence, but I didn't

12 have time for that.

13 Q. Where did this conversation occur?

14 A. I talked to him in front of the place his office was, not far off

15 from our pizzeria. Perhaps 50 metres away.

16 Q. And what did he say to you as you can recall, sir?

17 A. He said -- he asked me whether I would like to become included in

18 that Territorial Defence, which would consist of members of all the ethnic

19 groups living in the area and even a detachment, the 4th Detachment, which

20 belonged to the Yugoslav People's Army.

21 Q. What did you say to him in response?

22 A. I said, "If that is true and if all three ethnic groups plus the

23 4th Division belong and come under the Territorial Defence, then I would

24 be happy to take part in that as well."

25 Q. Was a Territorial Defence ever established, as described by Alija

Page 2926

1 Fitozovic?

2 A. No, as far as I know.

3 Q. So did you ever become a member of the Territorial Defence of

4 Bosanski Samac?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. Were you ever given a weapon by that Territorial Defence or Alija

7 Fitozovic?

8 A. No, I was not.

9 Q. Thank you. Sir, I'd like to go to the evening or the early

10 morning hours of April 17th, at approximately 3.00 a.m. Could you tell us

11 where you were at that time?

12 A. My brother and I were in our family house on the 17th, in the

13 morning.

14 Q. Was the rest of your family there?

15 A. No. The rest of my family was evacuated from town.

16 Q. And who got them out of town?

17 A. My brother and I.

18 Q. And did anything happen at approximately 3.00 a.m.? Please tell

19 the Chamber.

20 A. I did not understand the question. What three hours?

21 Q. At approximately 3.00 a.m., 3.00 in the morning on April 17th, did

22 anything happen to startle you?

23 A. Yes. At 3.00 a.m. in the morning, I was woken up by shooting

24 around town, strong detonation, that kind of thing.

25 Q. What did you do?

Page 2927

1 A. I called my brother, who got up. We talked. We telephoned to our

2 neighbours to see what was going on.

3 Q. Did you learn anything from the telephone conversations?

4 A. Well, the people themselves didn't know what was going on.

5 Q. What did you do next?

6 A. We went outside our house and were joined by our neighbours. We

7 discussed the situation. And a neighbour of the two people who worked for

8 us invited us over for coffee. She had made coffee. So we went and had

9 the coffee and went back to our own house after that.

10 Q. And who was that whose home that you went to? Who was these

11 people who worked for you?

12 A. It was Esad Dagovic, who worked as a waiter in our pizzeria, and

13 then there was Safet Dagovic, his brother, who worked in my shop, my game

14 shop.

15 Q. And where did they live in relation to your home?

16 A. Taking it from my house, they lived about 50-odd metres to the

17 left, in the direction of the Bosna River.

18 Q. So you had coffee at their house?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How long did you stay there?

21 A. Perhaps an hour. Half an hour to an hour. I'm not quite sure.

22 Q. After you left the Dagovic home, where did you go?

23 A. We went back to our own house.

24 Q. And when you say "we," that's you and your brother, Hasan;

25 correct?

Page 2928

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did you observe anything when you got back to your house?

3 A. The shooting continued and the explosions that could be heard.

4 You could hear detonations, shots. It was still dark, so that you

5 couldn't see anything yet.

6 Q. Where were your neighbours at that time? Did you see any of

7 them?

8 A. Yes, afterwards, when it was daybreak. The neighbours from the

9 surrounding houses and buildings had all somehow gathered there in that

10 new part attached to my house, and it was situated between an apartment

11 building and my house. We gathered there and discussed what was going

12 on.

13 Q. How did they seem?

14 A. They were terrified; just as we were. They didn't know what was

15 going on.

16 Q. What did you do?

17 A. We went into the house, and my brother called up Mr. Pisarevic on

18 the telephone. He asked what we should do, and Pisarevic said that he

19 would tell him but that he just had to see what was going on himself, to

20 check it out. And then he phoned later on and said that we would just

21 hand in our weapons and that everything would be all right.

22 Q. Where were you during the afternoon and evening of that same date?

23 A. For the most part, at home, in my own house. When I say "for the

24 most part," I mean that I was in the house and in this catering

25 establishment that was under construction, and we were able to see the

Page 2929

1 road from there and to see what was going on in the road from that part.

2 Q. Did you observe anything during the afternoon or evening hours on

3 that road?

4 A. Yes. We noticed that in the distance, there were some tanks and

5 that they were moving along the road.

6 Q. About how many tanks?

7 A. There were tanks, and the transporters, or whatever they're

8 called, APC's, similar to tanks, about five or six of them.

9 Q. And where were they coming from? From what direction?

10 A. They were coming from the direction of the memorial centre, Brcko,

11 Orasje, that region.

12 Q. Later that evening, what did you and your brother do?

13 A. We spent that whole evening at home, waiting to see whether they

14 would come to collect our weapons.

15 Q. Did anyone come that evening?

16 A. Nobody came to our house, not that day and not that evening.

17 Q. Let's go to the next day. Let's go to 10.00 in the morning, April

18 18th. What happened?

19 A. At 10.00 in the morning on the 18th of April, heavy shooting could

20 be heard near our house. Prior to that, we had lowered the blinds in our

21 family house. And there was a shattering that could be heard at the

22 entrance door, and my brother and I unlocked the door, and the door burst

23 open, and I received a severe blow to my head from a rifle. I fell down

24 in the hallway which led towards the bathroom, and I was a little -- I was

25 taken aback and not feeling fully conscious. People in masked uniforms

Page 2930

1 rushed into the house. They had been -- their faces were painted with

2 some sort of paint. And when they got me up, they transferred me into the

3 living-room. I saw that they were holding my brother up against the wall

4 with a knife to his neck. They were swearing and beating him, and me.

5 Q. Could you describe the uniforms that these people were wearing?

6 A. The people were wearing camouflage uniforms.

7 Q. And when you say you were struck with a rifle, which part of the

8 rifle were you struck in the head with?

9 A. He hit me with the rifle butt in my head, which means the back

10 part of the rifle which is usually placed on the shoulder.

11 Q. And what was your condition after being hit with the butt of the

12 rifle?

13 A. For a short time, I was sort of semi-conscious or

14 semi-unconscious, and I was so afraid. But from the blows and kicks with

15 the boot, I came to pretty quickly, because I was afraid they would kick

16 me in the face and head, which unfortunately did happen during the time

17 that I spent in the different camps.

18 Q. Were you bleeding?

19 A. Yes. My shirt, the shirt I was in, was more red than it was white

20 while it was on me.

21 Q. How many soldiers were in your home, as best that you can recall?

22 A. Well, there were not less than six or seven, as far as I

23 remember. Perhaps even as many as ten.

24 Q. Now, you're sitting on the floor at some point in the living-room?

25 A. Yes, I was sitting on the floor in the living-room.

Page 2931

1 Q. And a soldier has a knife to your brother's neck?

2 A. Yes. He put him up against a wall between the entrance to two

3 rooms; that is to say, the bedroom and children's room. He was put up

4 against a wall there, and he held the knife up to him, hitting him with

5 his other hand, and the others helped him beat him, and they beat him too.

6 Q. As they were beating your brother, Hasan, did they say anything to

7 him?

8 A. They asked for money, valuables, jewellery, gold. And they were

9 beating me and swearing at me. They cursed my Muslim mother.

10 Q. What were the other soldiers doing in the house?

11 A. The others were simply ransacking drawers of the cupboards and

12 cabinets and they were throwing the furniture outside. They were

13 ransacking it, searching. They went into the other rooms too. And quite

14 simply, they were looting and destroying the furniture in the process.

15 Q. What were they looking for, Mr. Bicic?

16 A. I didn't understand you.

17 Q. What were these soldiers looking for as they were looking through

18 the drawers and through the furniture?

19 A. They were looking for money, for valuables, for gold and

20 jewellery.

21 Q. Did you have any weapons in the house?

22 A. We had laid out our weapons on the floor, along with the licences

23 we had for the weapons, so that they didn't even look at the weapons.

24 Q. Did you ever learn the names of the soldiers that were in your

25 house, any of them?

Page 2932

1 A. Yes. After a few days in camp, on the premises of the Territorial

2 Defence, or rather, in the Territorial Defence storage room, I found out

3 that they were called Laki, Zec, Avram, Lugar.

4 Q. Had you ever seen these individuals before in Bosanski Samac?

5 A. No, I had never seen them before.

6 Q. Did you learn where these people had come from?

7 A. Yes. People said they were special units who had arrived from

8 Serbia.

9 Q. Was there anything about their accents or their dress or anything

10 that they did that indicated that they were from Serbia?

11 A. Yes. They spoke in the Ekavian dialect, which in our area was not

12 used.

13 Q. In what area is that dialect or accent used?

14 A. That dialect is used in Serbia. It's not the most frequent but

15 the only dialect used in Serbia.

16 Q. Let's go to Lugar. What did Lugar do in your house? Did he harm

17 you or your brother?

18 A. Yes. He beat us, and he was the first person who hit me on the

19 head with a rifle butt in our house.

20 Q. Did he beat you with any other instruments, either you or Hasan?

21 A. He beat us with a police truncheon. He kicked us, and he was

22 wearing boots.

23 Q. How long were these people in your home, these soldiers?

24 A. I don't know, but they beat us and held us there for about 20

25 minutes. Then they called for a car. This was a Golf. They pushed us

Page 2933

1 in. They had a pistol pointed at my neck and head. As the car was

2 driving, he kept changing the position. So it was sometimes pointed at my

3 neck, sometimes at my head. And the man who was sitting in front held an

4 automatic pistol pointed at my brother's head. And so we arrived at the

5 police station in Samac.

6 Q. When you arrived at the police station, what did you observe?

7 A. In front of the police station, there was a large group of

8 uniformed men. They were wearing JNA uniforms and also police uniforms.

9 Q. And what did they do?

10 A. They stood in two lines, and we had to pass through. They beat us

11 with their weapons, they kicked us, they used police truncheons to hit us

12 until we reached the entrance to the police station.

13 Q. Mr. Bicic, as you passed through that gauntlet, were they saying

14 anything as they beat you and your brother, Hasan?

15 A. They cursed our balija mothers, and as they were hitting us, they

16 simply cursed our mothers. We tried to run through as fast as we could,

17 although we stumbled from the blows.

18 Q. When you finally got inside the police station, what was your

19 condition and what was the condition, the physical condition, of your

20 brother, Hasan?

21 A. We were all battered, exhausted from the blows. We were in pain

22 all over our bodies. My head was aching. I have a -- I had a big gash in

23 my head which kept bleeding. Everything was bloodstained; my clothes, I

24 mean.

25 Q. Where did you go once you arrived at the police station? To a

Page 2934

1 certain office, or where did they bring you?

2 A. They put us in the reception office in the police station.

3 Q. Were both you and your brother in the same office?

4 A. Yes, we were at first. But after that, they put me on one side

5 and my brother on another. They separated us. They threw him onto a

6 table which was covered with a thick glass plate which was broken. They

7 took off his trousers and his shirt, and then they beat him with police

8 truncheons as he was lying naked on that broken glass on the table.

9 Q. When you say "they" did it, who is "they"?

10 A. They were the men who had entered our house. Stevo Todorovic was

11 there, policemen wearing police uniforms, and also men wearing JNA

12 uniforms.

13 Q. Now, as your brother is being beaten on that table, where are

14 you?

15 A. I was in another room which was directly opposite this one. And

16 through the open door, you could see across the corridor, which was about

17 a metre, a metre and a half away, so you could see the table through the

18 open doors. It was -- I was about four and a half metres away from the

19 table where my brother was being beaten.

20 Q. And as your brother was being beaten and you're watching it, were

21 they saying anything to him?

22 A. Yes. They asked for our cars. They cursed his Muslim mother. He

23 asked where he had hidden the cars. They asked where the money was. That

24 was it mostly.

25 Q. After they finished beating your brother, what happened?

Page 2935

1 A. Then they took us upstairs in the police station building.

2 Q. Where did they bring you upstairs?

3 A. They pushed us into an office upstairs.

4 Q. How long did you remain in that office upstairs?

5 A. We remained in that office until the evening. I think it was

6 about 10.00 p.m.

7 Q. While you were in that office -- or when you went into the office

8 at first, was there anyone else present?

9 A. They put a guard in that office. The guard was wearing a police

10 uniform and had a rifle, and they told him to watch the two of us

11 carefully until their return.

12 Q. Were any other prisoners brought into that office?

13 A. [redacted] Simnica Ramadani, and

14 later on Sulejman Tihic was also brought in.

15 Q. Did anyone enter the room during the time you were there, you and

16 the others?

17 A. Yes. A young lieutenant walked in who was wearing a JNA uniform,

18 and he questioned us.

19 Q. Did anyone else enter the room?

20 A. Lugar came in after that.

21 Q. And what did Lugar do?

22 A. Lugar beat my brother and me. He asked about our cars. We then

23 gave him the keys of our jeep, which was in the garage next to the house.

24 And for the moment, this satisfied him, but then he noticed the thick gold

25 chains we were wearing around our necks, and he tried to pull them off.

Page 2936

1 But we were afraid that he would hurt us even more, so my brother and I

2 took off our gold chains and put them in his hand.

3 Q. When Lugar beat you in that office, did he use any implement or

4 instrument?

5 A. Yes. He used a police truncheon. And since we were sitting on

6 the floor, he would often kick us with his booted feet in the chest or

7 wherever his foot landed.

8 Q. What happened after Lugar left the office with the keys to your

9 jeep?

10 A. After a certain time, he probably found the garage and the jeep,

11 and he came back in it. He returned upstairs, where we were. Then he sat

12 at a desk where there was a telephone. He dialed a number. And I

13 concluded from the conversation he had that he was talking to his wife or

14 maybe his girlfriend. He mentioned Kragujevac. And then he said, "Listen

15 to how these balijas are crying and this president we have caught." He

16 was referring to Tihic.

17 And the telephone was connected to the receiver, so he carried all

18 this closer to Tihic, beating him on the head with his truncheon. And of

19 course, he screamed in pain. And he put the receiver next to one of us

20 and then another one. [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 this lasted perhaps some 20 minutes or half an hour.

25 Q. Were you and your brother beaten during that episode?

Page 2937

1 A. Yes. Lugar beat us together with them, and he also put the

2 receiver close to us.

3 Q. Now, you said sometime during the evening, about 10.00 p.m., you

4 left that room.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where did you go?

7 A. The five of us were taken downstairs. We were directed, together

8 with a few other people who came out of other rooms, toward the big iron

9 gate of the Territorial Defence. And as we were crossing over to there

10 with our hands on our heads, soldiers were standing on either side of us,

11 and these policemen hurrying along, hitting us with various objects, that

12 is, the weapons they were wielding.

13 Q. Did they say anything as they struck you with a weapon?

14 A. Yes. They kept cursing us. Some of them cursed our balija

15 mothers, others cursed our Ustasha mothers. I think they were referring

16 to those of us who were Croats. And when they cursed our balija mothers,

17 they were referring to those of us who were Muslims.

18 Q. Did you eventually enter the gate into the TO courtyard?

19 A. Yes. At one point, I received a severe blow to the back which

20 propelled me through the gate, and there somebody helped me. Because I

21 stumbled, so someone helped me to straighten myself up. And we were put

22 into a room which was five by five metres, and there we found about 30

23 more people who had also been beaten. They were all townspeople from our

24 town.

25 Q. Just let me step back for one second. You indicated you were hit

Page 2938

1 in the back. Do you know what you were hit with? Was it a fist or an

2 object of some kind?

3 A. It was a military rifle, or rather, it was the rifle butt of a

4 military rifle.

5 Q. They place you in this room, five by five metres, you said. How

6 many other people were in this room?

7 A. I have already said that we found about 30 people who had been

8 beaten like us, who were covered in blood, as we were. They had swollen

9 faces, just as we had.

10 Q. Do you know the ethnic composition of the persons in that room?

11 A. I think that there were as many Croats as there were Muslims, and

12 there were even a few regular policemen who worked in the police station

13 in Bosanski Samac.

14 Q. And what was the condition of those police officers that were in

15 that room?

16 A. They had also been beaten up. They had big swellings on their

17 faces. They were covered with blood, just as we were. Their uniforms

18 were stained with blood.

19 Q. Were any of these individuals in the military or wearing military

20 uniforms?

21 A. Are you referring to the prisoners?

22 Q. The prisoners, yes.

23 A. No, none of them was wearing a military uniform, but as I have

24 already said, there were a few regular police officers who had been

25 employed in the police station, and a few of them were wearing police

Page 2939

1 uniforms.

2 Q. Were any of the people who were prisoners at the time, were any of

3 these people Serbs?

4 A. Not for the first few days. Afterwards, they brought in Dragan

5 Mirin, as we used to call him. I think his father was a Serb and his

6 mother a Croat.

7 Q. Were people standing or sitting on the floor?

8 A. We were sitting on the floor. Those other people were sitting on

9 the floor too. That's how I found them, leaning against three walls of

10 that small room.

11 Q. And what kind of floor -- flooring was there? Was it wood? Were

12 there mats on there? Was it rugged? Was it -- what was it?

13 A. Just concrete.

14 MR. WEINER: Your Honours, the witness last prepared a diagram. I

15 have served the diagram upon counsel. There is one which is in Bosnian

16 Croatian and there is another which is Bosnian Croatian with the English

17 subtitles so we know what the words mean. I'd like to place the diagram

18 on the ELMO and leave it there, and at different times during his

19 testimony about the TO he can refer to it, some of the beatings, where

20 they occurred, in the courtyard, where inside the building.


22 MR. WEINER: I've given those to the registrar already. If the

23 usher could place one on the ELMO. First, could we start off at the

24 bottom just for one second.

25 Q. Mr. Bicic, can you show us where the police station is?

Page 2940

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. Thank you. And, sir, just one step back. Did you prepare this?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. A few days ago? A few days ago, sir?

5 A. A few days ago, yes.

6 Q. Now, could you show us where the TO is?

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. And could you, going around to the left, tell us what these

9 different structures are in the area? Starting with the TO or --

10 A. This is the TO building. In the corner of that building was a

11 toilet, and we all used that toilet if we were allowed to do so. Next to

12 the building is the garage. Then this was an iron gate. These are the

13 warehouses or storerooms. This is the room in which we were

14 incarcerated. There were between 40 and 50 of us in this small space. We

15 were lined up from the entrance door here right round the walls of the

16 room. That's how we sat, on the concrete floor, leaning against the

17 wall.

18 Q. And what is this building or this room in front of the detention

19 room?

20 A. It was a shop selling spare parts for cars. It is within this

21 complex, but actually, it was separate. It was a separate car spare parts

22 shop.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you.

24 MR. WEINER: If we could leave the ELMO on and he can refer to it,

25 with the Court's permission, later in his testimony, so the usher doesn't

Page 2941

1 have to go back and forth.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I didn't understand what you said.

3 MR. WEINER: We could leave the ELMO on, and that way the usher

4 doesn't have to go back and forth, and he can refer to it during his

5 testimony.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Do you wish to have these diagrams produced into

7 evidence?

8 MR. WEINER: Yes. Could we have that marked?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the Defence to the diagram? No.

10 Can we have the numbers, please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P29 ter and P29, the English

12 translation.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.


15 Q. Sir, have you ever heard of a person named Laki?

16 A. Yes. It was another special forces person from Serbia who, on

17 that evening when they transferred us to the room where we were all

18 incarcerated in, he arrived with another man of the special forces also

19 from Serbia. And I saw around his neck, on the neck of this second

20 special forces person whom they called Kralj [sic] or "King," my gold

21 chain with the locket on which my nickname had been engraved.

22 Q. Was that the same gold chain that just a few hours before Lugar

23 had stolen from you or had robbed from you?

24 A. Yes. That was the chain that Lugar seized from me.

25 Q. Now, when Laki and -- do you know the full name of that gentleman

Page 2942

1 who you referred to as the King? Is that Goran Simic?

2 A. I couldn't say now whether it was Goran Simic or not, but Kralj

3 [sic] -- I think Kralj [sic] was Goran Simic, but I'm not quite sure

4 because a lot of time has gone by, so I can't be sure.

5 Q. When those two soldiers entered the room, what did they make you

6 do? What happened?

7 A. They made us sing.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Just to assist my learned colleague from

10 Prosecution, the nickname of this Goran Simic, probably was not Kralj

11 [sic] like "King." The witness said "Tralja." "T" like Tango, Romeo, et

12 cetera. So I mean, we are going, you know, in new questions, and then the

13 same nickname is used, which is not "King." Actually, it was Tralja,

14 T-r-a-l-j-a, as the witness said. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness can confirm that.


17 Q. Was the nickname of the second person who was wearing your stolen

18 gold chain Tralja?

19 A. I think it was Tralja.

20 Q. Thank you. You said that they asked you to sing Chetnik songs.

21 Who asked you to sing Chetnik songs?

22 A. That was Laki and the one with my chain around his neck.

23 Q. Once you started singing those Chetnik or Serbian patriotic songs,

24 what happened?

25 A. Two of them came up to me and my brother. Laki made me - and he

Page 2943

1 beat me on the head while he was doing this, and because my brother and I

2 were sitting next to each other, and he was beating with a police

3 truncheon on my head - he made me laugh. He ordered me to laugh. And

4 then he moved towards my brother and started beating him, and he kept

5 ordering me to keep on laughing. And then he swore at me and cursed my

6 mother because I was laughing while he was beating my brother, saying,

7 "See what your brother is like. Fuck him. He's laughing while we're

8 beating you."

9 Q. What was he beating you and your brother with?

10 A. A police truncheon.

11 Q. How long did that beating last?

12 A. Perhaps 10 to 15 minutes, and then he would move on to other

13 people. They would move on to others, whom they then started beating.

14 And this went on for about half an hour.

15 Q. Sir, how long were you held at the Territorial Defence building?

16 A. They kept us there for about eight to ten days. I can't remember

17 exactly. But some came a day earlier. We came on the 18th, in the

18 evening; that is to say, we were transferred there then. So some people

19 might have been there nine days, eight days, others ten days. I'm not

20 quite sure. Afterwards they would bring in more people, who spent a

21 shorter period of time there. For example, two or three -- for two or

22 three days they kept bringing new people in and throwing them into our

23 room.

24 Q. During the time you were at the Territorial Defence, were any of

25 the prisoners beaten?

Page 2944

1 A. They beat everybody mostly.

2 Q. How often were prisoners beaten?

3 A. Several times a day, and several times during the night too.

4 Q. And did this happen every day that you were there, sir?

5 A. Yes, every day.

6 Q. Where were the people beaten?

7 A. They beat them wherever they could. There were no special parts

8 of the body. All over the body, including the head.

9 Q. Where in the building? Were they beaten in the courtyard? Were

10 they beaten in the TO building? Were they beaten in the detention room?

11 In what location were the people beaten?

12 A. They beat them in the room we were in. They also beat them

13 outside, in the yard.

14 Q. How often were they beaten in the yard?

15 A. Mostly in the yard when the small group of people came to beat the

16 prisoners. Then what happened was that they would take two of us out at a

17 time, two or three out at a time, and then three or four of them would

18 attack us, beating us with their rifles, kicking us with their army boots,

19 police truncheons. Then they would send us back and the other people had

20 to stand up and sing Chetnik songs as loud as possible. We would go back,

21 and they would take three other people out. And this went on for as long

22 as an hour sometimes.

23 Q. How severe were the beatings in the courtyard?

24 A. So severe that we could barely make it back to the room on our

25 own, it was so painful. We were barely able to walk, so sometimes we'd

Page 2945

1 crawl back into the room.

2 Q. Did the victims of these beatings, did they ever cry out or make

3 any sounds during the beatings?

4 A. Yes. The people would scream out in pain and beg them to stop,

5 asking why they were being beaten, but they were cries and screams more

6 than ...

7 Q. And the soldiers, did they say anything during these beatings?

8 A. They would usually swear, using different swear words, but usually

9 they would swear -- curse our balija mothers or our Ustasha mothers. They

10 would beat us as much as possible.

11 Q. What was the tone of their voice as they swore at you or cursed

12 you?

13 A. They tried to speak as loudly as possible, to swear and curse as

14 loudly as possible and to instil even greater fear in us, in those of us

15 who had to take all those beatings.

16 Q. How long did a beating session last in the courtyard?

17 A. Well, I said that they lasted up to an hour, until we all took

18 turns, all those who were imprisoned in the room.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues]... particular session for the two

20 or three people who were brought out, was there any regular time or

21 general time?

22 A. No, there was no regular time or general time. Some people were

23 beaten more, others less. But generally speaking, for them to beat us all

24 lasted about an hour.

25 Q. Okay. Did they use any implements when they beat you? Please

Page 2946

1 tell the Chamber what type of instruments were used during these

2 beatings.

3 A. They beat us with different implements. In the garage which was

4 adjoined to the TO building itself, there was an old truck, army truck,

5 belonging to the JNA, where there were various wooden and metal objects.

6 So they beat us with that and also with the weapons they had with them,

7 and if anybody had a police truncheon, they would use that. Also, if some

8 of us fell down, then they would usually be kicked with an army boot in

9 the body or neck or head. So they used everything they had to hand to

10 inflict as much pain as possible.

11 Q. Now, sir, as a few prisoners are being beaten in the courtyard,

12 what would the rest of the prisoners be doing?

13 A. The rest of the prisoners had to stand up against the wall and

14 sing Chetnik songs which they were ordered to sing.

15 Q. Do you recall the names of any of these Chetnik songs or Serbian

16 patriotic songs, Mr. Bicic?

17 A. Yes, I do. At the beginning, the most frequent one was, until we

18 had all learnt the words, the lyrics, "from Topala to Ravna Gora." That

19 was one of them. And later on, somebody who had been taught to sing some

20 of these songs before, they were made to sing songs with similar lyrics.

21 Q. Could you explain that, sir?

22 A. We sang, as I say, "from Topala to Ravna Gora," and "General

23 Draza's guards are standing all around." General Draza Mihajlovic was a

24 Chetnik in World War II. He was proclaimed a war criminal. Then they

25 made us sing "King Petar send a salad. They will be meat. We'll

Page 2947

1 slaughter Croats to go with it."

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. Then we had to sing "Oy, balija, we're going to slit your throats

4 in this war like Milos did for Murat." And we had to sing in a circle one

5 song after another while they were taking people out to beat them in the

6 yard of the Territorial Defence building.

7 Q. Sir, are you familiar with a soldier by the name of Cera?

8 A. Yes, I am.

9 Q. And do you know where he's from?

10 A. He is from Samac.

11 Q. Did you ever see Cera at the TO?

12 A. Yes. He was always with a large group of people from Serbia, the

13 ones who came to beat us. He was one of their informers, and he would

14 point a finger or a police baton that he always had with him. He would

15 point to individuals, who would then be taken out and beaten.

16 Q. Now, as you said, Cera was a local person. He wasn't from

17 Serbia.

18 A. He was from Samac. I saw him before and I knew him. He's quite a

19 bit younger than me, but I knew him because he often helped or worked in

20 the bakery, the bakery that we -- which supplied us with our bread before

21 we opened the pizzeria. This bakery supplied us with buns, and we would

22 serve Bosnian specialties such as Cevapcici in those buns.

23 Q. When you saw Cera at the TO, how was he dressed?

24 A. He was also wearing a camouflage uniform, and he wore dark

25 glasses. He always had a police baton in his right hand and a rifle in

Page 2948

1 his left, so that he would point with that baton and beat the prisoners

2 with it too.

3 Q. Now, sir, do you recall an incident which occurred between Cera

4 and Omer Nalic between April 22nd and 24th, 1992? At the TO, sir.

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. And could you tell the Tribunal what happened?

7 A. On that day, Cera came in with some other men who were also

8 wearing uniforms. They made us get up and sing the Chetnik songs once

9 again. He would beat people with his baton, the ones he selected, and

10 that's how he hit Omer Nalic on one occasion. Nalic asked why, and then

11 he took out a bayonet from his belt, pulled out a bayonet and stuck the

12 knife in his hand.

13 Q. Where were you when this occurred and Omer Nalic was stabbed with

14 a bayonet?

15 A. I was a few metres away from Omer. We were standing opposite to

16 each other.

17 Q. What happened after he was stabbed?

18 A. After a few minutes had gone by, he took out my brother and me,

19 [redacted] Dragan Lukac, Izet Izetbegovic. That's what they did. They

20 would always take us out, almost always. Sometimes two by two, three by

21 three, and then four people or five people, depending on how many soldiers

22 there were from Serbia in the yard and in the room itself where we were

23 in.

24 Q. And what happened in the yard? Were you beaten?

25 A. In the yard, there were about 30 to 40 soldiers. So they took us

Page 2949

1 out, four or five of us, and they distributed us around the yard. I can

2 indicate this on the map --

3 Q. Please do.

4 A. -- on the diagram.

5 Q. One second. Let us go to the video. Please show us.

6 A. It was here by the water pump. It was a hand water pump --

7 Q. Who was there?

8 A. -- or tap. And they beat me. That's where I was beaten.

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 In this corner here, Cera stopped beating me and some others and

15 then he proceeded to beat my brother. And when they knocked him down to

16 the ground, when he fell down from the blows, Cera, with his boot, kicked

17 him in his open hand breaking three of his fingers.

18 In this area here towards the garage and iron gate, they beat

19 Dragan Lukac. They were beating Dragan Lukac at that time. And when they

20 had had their fill, they would make us get back into the room, beating us

21 all the time on our backs. And then they would take other people out, and

22 they would beat them in similar fashion.

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 2950

1 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, should we break here or --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. It's 1700 hours. We shall break, and we

3 shall continue tomorrow morning at 0930 hours.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.00 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day

6 of October, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.