1 Tuesday, 30 October 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.00 p.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav
9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is still continuing with their
12 MR. WEINER: Yes.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness. We are continuing.
14 MR. WEINER: Good afternoon.
15 WITNESS: MUHAMED BICIC [Resumed]
16 Examined by Mr. Weiner: [Continued]
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bicic. Let us return to September 4th, 1992,
18 the day that you were exchanged. Now, you're sitting on a bus. In what
19 city or location is that bus?
20 A. The bus was in Bosanska Gradiska in front of the bridge, right by
21 the bridge, by a park. That's where it was parked.
22 Q. Now, where was that bus in relation to Croatia?
23 A. It is across the river Sava.
24 Q. So you're right across -- Croatia is right across the river;
25 you're right on the border at this point?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And how long did you spend at the border waiting?
3 A. We got there between 12.00 and 1.00, so sometime around midday.
4 We waited there until about 5.00 in the afternoon.
5 Q. And then what happened?
6 A. At 5.00 in the afternoon, several other buses turned up. I don't
7 know where they came from. And then all together we started off across
8 the bridge, or rather, across the Sava River.
9 Q. Prior to being exchanged, did you see any of the defendants at
10 that location?
11 A. Yes, I did. I saw Mr. Tadic.
12 Q. And what was he doing?
13 A. He was sitting across the street in a cafe.
14 Q. At any point did he do anything in relation to the exchange?
15 A. I don't know, because I was sitting in the bus, so I didn't move
16 from there.
17 Q. How many people were on that bus?
18 A. There were many of us, and many of us sat on the floor. There
19 weren't enough seats for the number of people that were there. I can't
20 give you the exact number.
21 Q. Okay. At some point you leave the bus. Did you receive an order
22 to leave the bus?
23 A. No, we didn't leave the bus while we were waiting to be
24 exchanged. We were shut up in the bus, actually. We were just sitting
25 inside, waiting in front of the bridge, as I said, from 12.00 noon to
1 about 5.00 in the afternoon.
2 Q. Okay. At 5.00 in the afternoon, does the bus go over the bridge?
3 Do you walk over the bridge? What happens?
4 A. No. The bus drove on, I would say, for another half hour, perhaps
5 a little more, towards the motorway. And at a broken-down petrol station,
6 we waited for some more time, and then we got out of the bus and the
7 exchange started.
8 Q. Okay. At that point, at the petrol station, did you see any of
9 the defendants here?
10 A. Yes. Just Tadic.
11 Q. And what was Miroslav Tadic doing?
12 A. He had some papers in his hands and was talking to some people.
13 Talking, that's all.
14 Q. And what happened to you?
15 A. We were standing outside in groups as each bus turned up, and then
16 the exchange started, so that I crossed over to the other side, over a
17 sort of invisible line, if I could put it that way. I stepped over the
18 line where there were some other buses, and that's where we were
19 gathered. They collected us up.
20 Q. And when this exchange occurred, people were crossing each way,
21 where was Mr. Tadic and what was he doing?
22 A. I didn't actually pay attention to where he was much, but I do
23 know that he had some papers in his hands and was probably coordinating
24 something. I don't really know.
25 Q. You cross into Croatia. What happens next, Mr. Bicic? Tell the
1 Court. One second.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic?
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one correction in
4 the translation. The third line -- third page, tenth, or rather, twelfth
5 line, the witness said that he was negotiating, or rather, that he was
6 talking to some people, whereas in English, it says "was talking." So
7 could that be clarified? The witness said "negotiating" when he describes
8 what Miroslav Tadic was doing.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. I'm sure the Prosecution will clear that
10 with the witness.
11 MR. WEINER:
12 Q. Mr. Bicic, at some point you indicate that the defendant Tadic had
13 some papers in his hand and he was speaking or negotiating. Could you
14 tell as best you could what exactly he was doing? Was he negotiating?
15 Was he speaking? Was he giving orders? Please tell us all what he was
17 A. I can't say with any certainty, because I was about ten metres
18 away or maybe more from that particular spot. I saw several people there
19 who were talking to him. Now, what they were talking about, I really
20 can't say. I can't clarify that, because I didn't hear them.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, you cross into Croatia. What happens? Tell the
22 Court, please.
23 A. They put us onto the buses and drove us off towards Slavonski --
24 or rather, Bosanski Brod. They dropped me off at Slavonski Brod, at the
25 hospital there, where they examined me and gave me medical assistance.
1 They kept me -- they wanted to keep me there for treatment, but my brother
2 and my friends came to fetch me, so that I left the hospital and went to
3 stay with friends, to their homes, and stayed there for some time.
4 Q. At any point during the exchange, did you meet anyone? Was anyone
5 waiting for you?
6 A. Yes. My brother's friends were waiting for me.
7 Q. Tell us what happened.
8 A. They put me in front of some television cameras - Croatian
9 television I'm referring to - and I gave a brief statement about what had
10 happened in the camps that I was in.
11 Q. Did you see any relatives there?
12 A. Yes. In one of the buses - I learned later on that it came from
13 Doboj - but anyway, in that bus I saw my mother's sister and her husband
14 and their son. When I went up to them, they couldn't recognise me. They
15 were shocked and they kept looking at me, and it was only when we started
16 talking that they recognised my voice and realised that it was me. So we
17 had a chat. And they were expelled from Doboj themselves and had been
18 exchanged at the same spot in Dragalic, like me.
19 Q. These relatives that didn't recognise you, had you seen them very
20 often prior to the conflict?
21 A. Yes. My aunt, my mother's sister, had spent some 15 years living
22 with us together in Samac. That's where she worked in the social
23 accounting service, the SDK. And after that, we would visit each other at
24 least twice a month. They would come to see us or we would go to see
1 Q. When you say they couldn't recognise you, had you lost weight?
2 Had your face changed? Were you beaten at the time? Why couldn't they
3 recognise you?
4 A. Because I had lost quite a bit of weight, and also because my face
5 was all swollen from all -- and it was all black and blue, and my nose was
6 broken. So I suppose that's why they could hardly recognise me.
7 Q. How much weight had you lost?
8 A. When I was -- before I was detained, I weighed between 116
9 [Realtime transcript read in error "160"] and 120 kilos. When I was
10 exchanged, and in the hospital, when I weighed myself there, I weighed 63
12 Q. Sir, the transcript says "between 160 and 120." Is that 116, or
13 is that ...
14 A. One hundred and sixteen.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, you indicated that you were on Croatian
16 television at the time of exchange.
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. WEINER: At this point, Your Honour, could we play
19 approximately ten seconds of the clip which is Prosecution's Exhibit
20 number 27, just to have him identify?
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.
22 MR. WEINER: P27. It's already in the audiovisual room. Turn to
23 the video evidence.
24 [Videotape played]
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's me.
1 MR. WEINER: Thank you. Thank you very much.
2 Q. Do you have any question about that? That's definitely you,
3 Mr. Bicic?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. Mr. Bicic, I'd like to briefly discuss your financial loss. You
6 indicated that you owned an arcade or games shop in Bosanski Samac.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you describe what type of property you had in that shop and
9 what happened to it.
10 A. In the shop I had about 20 machines, gaming machines and
11 entertainment machines, and the machines included billiards, flippers,
12 video games, and poker machines.
13 Q. And what happened to it?
14 A. It disappeared, all of it. I don't know. Apart from that, we had
15 about 150 machines all in all, which we rented out to other establishments
16 for entertainment: billiards, football, table football, video games, that
17 kind of thing.
18 Q. And what happened to those 150 video games?
19 A. I don't know. Quite simply, they're no longer there.
20 Q. Now, you indicated, sir, that near your home you had a building
21 that was under construction.
22 A. Yes. Adjoining my house I had built another catering
23 establishment which was nearing completion. Construction work was almost
24 finished. And so some tiles remained in the pallets that they came in,
25 which I was going to put down on the floors, and I had some brass shelving
1 that I was going to put up inside, and quite a lot of other construction
2 material that I was going to build into the interior of the establishment.
3 Q. What happened to it?
4 A. I don't know that either.
5 Q. Is it still there?
6 A. No. That catering enterprise and part of my house was destroyed.
7 There is nothing in the house: no doors, no windows, no water pipes or
8 cables, electricity cables, or anything like that, or parquet floors, let
9 alone the furniture and all the other things that were in it. That has
10 all disappeared. And the house was devastated, completely destroyed.
11 Almost half the house was knocked down; how, I don't know.
12 Q. Your wife had a boutique. Tell us about that, please.
13 A. Yes, my wife did have a boutique. It was a container-type kiosk
14 boutique in the centre of town, opposite the hotel. There were some 20
15 kiosks of the same shape and size, and there were different shops in the
16 kiosks. There were boutiques, several boutiques with clothing, then there
17 were hairdressing salons, florist shops, bakeries, and so on. This was
18 that section of the centre of town, and it was called the Mini Trade
19 Centre, this row of kiosks. And in one of the boutiques they also sold
20 leather goods: handbags, belts, and the like, made of leather.
21 Q. What happened to these boutiques?
22 A. I don't know. I couldn't tell you. But last year a friend of
23 mine whom I sent a power of attorney that the boutique, which is still
24 located in Samac, that he should transfer it to where he was, to the
25 Domaljevac-Samac municipality -- however, despite all the attempts to do
1 so, he was not permitted to; he was not allowed to do that.
2 And then somebody transferred the boutique to a nearby village,
3 Tisina. When my friend attempted to repossess it, he was expelled from
4 the yard in which the boutique was located and they asked him to pay some
5 money for them to give it back to him, allegedly. However, sometime in
6 the early spring of this year the boutique -- the people who had
7 appropriated the boutique set it up at a crossroads towards Orasje and
8 Domaljevac, and at the junction towards Obudovac, at a turning there, then
9 my friend and some other people, with a big dredger, lifted the boutique
10 or kiosk, loaded it up onto a truck with this crane, and transported it to
11 his own back yard, the back yard of the house he still lives in today.
12 After that, they called him over the phone and asked allegedly to
13 be remunerated for the boutique. They said that they had done some
14 repairs to it. However, I heard from others, learnt from others, that the
15 boutique had in fact been used for several years by a policeman, or
16 rather, a police technician, from Samac, who still works in the police
17 force in Samac, and he himself asked my friend to pay him some money for
18 the renovations that he had allegedly done. He wanted four or five
19 hundred marks for this. But my friend had all the paperwork that I had
20 certified, or rather, my wife had authenticated the papers, so that when
21 the police came to establish what had occurred in respect of this kiosk,
22 he supplied all the necessary papers.
23 The police was able to see that everything was in order, that they
24 were all regularly kept and he no longer had any problems with it. But
25 the kiosk itself is ruined -- ruined quite a lot. Everything that was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 inside it has disappeared, including the shelves and mirrors, of course
2 the goods that were in it too. It was dented and broken. So one would
3 have to invest quite a bit of additional money to get it working again,
4 put it in shape, in proper repair.
5 Q. Sir, all of the property that you, your wife, and your brother
6 lost, did you ever receive any sort of receipt or certificate for this
7 property and/or did you ever receive any compensation for people either
8 taking it or using it?
9 A. No. We never received any receipt that it had been taken away
10 from us, nor were we ever asked about any compensation. Quite simply,
11 they just asked us to buy it again, to buy back our property, in fact.
12 Q. Sir, last question on property: Approximately how much money were
13 you and your family worth prior to April 17th?
14 A. It's difficult to assess the value, but we had four
15 establishments, catering establishments. We were the owners of three, and
16 one of them I had refurbished completely. I had invested a great deal of
17 money into that one. As I already said, we also had about 150 different
18 machines, gaming machines and others. Then we had the pizzeria, which was
19 one of the best restaurants in those parts, and well known beyond the
20 region as well. The value of all that property was enormous for those
21 circumstances, for the circumstances we lived in and for those standards.
22 Q. What did you have when you got out, when you were -- when you and
23 your brother were exchanged? What did you have?
24 A. I had I don't know whose T-shirt on me and trousers which somebody
25 had brought me so that I could be exchanged in a decent change of clothing
1 and not in bloodstained, dirty clothes, the kind that I was in. That was
2 all that I had. And my brother left looking like I had just described,
3 dirty, like I was, in a blood -- in bloodstained clothing which he was
4 wearing, the only clothes that he had on his back.
5 Q. The question I had was: You had an enormous amount of property
6 and financial holdings. At the time of your release, what did you have
8 A. I do not know because I did not have occasion to see, but when my
9 brother went to check over all the things and when he asked that our
10 property be returned, he told me -- and, in fact, took photographs of this
11 house of ours, which had been half not -- destroyed, and the shop, the
12 pizzeria that they asked him money for, to buy back the things that were
13 inside, his own things, and he told them that they were welcome to it all
14 and that we would buy other things. He saw the boutique somewhere near
15 the banks of the Sava River, behind the hotel. It had been left there,
16 abandoned. But when we were supposed to get it back, it was transported
17 to Tisina, which is a neighbouring village to Samac, and they also asked
18 to be paid some money for it.
19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, counsel.
20 I wonder whether, Mr. Bicic, you could clarify about bank
21 accounts. Did you have bank accounts with money left in those accounts
22 when you were detained?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We had bank accounts,
24 business accounts, with money on them, but the documents and booklets we
25 didn't have on us. Some of these were left behind in our house. And in
1 the barracks in Brcko, they seized absolutely everything we had on us, all
2 the documents, starting from our ID's, driving licences, and everything
3 else we had in our pockets. So that, I don't know. I simply don't know
4 what happened with those things.
5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just one further question: Did you attempt to
6 follow up after you were released until today, follow up with those
7 banking institutions concerning what had been in those accounts?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I haven't been to Bosanski
9 Samac at all since I was exchanged. My brother did go back, but I don't
10 know whether he made any such attempts. We never discussed it. And I
11 believe that the Jugobanka which used to exist in those days, as well as
12 the Sarajevska Banka in Samac, they probably have no data there, and one
13 doesn't really know whom one could address.
14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
15 MR. WEINER:
16 Q. And whatever papers you had, identity papers, papers that you
17 could have used at the bank, were taken from Brcko?
18 A. Yes. In Brcko, all of us were deprived of everything we had on
19 us. This didn't apply just to me and my brother but absolutely everyone
20 who was transferred there. And when they took us inside, one by one, into
21 the premises of the barracks, or rather, the prison in that barracks, then
22 they leant us against the walls, searched our pockets. They even took off
23 our shoes. Some people even had to strip as far as their underwear to
24 make sure that they were not concealing anything. And whatever they found
25 was thrown into a pile. What happened to that later, I don't know.
1 Anyway, we were never given any of it back.
2 Q. Sir, I would like to go from there, your financial loss, to your
3 physical condition on being released. You indicated you were checked at a
4 hospital, and you also mentioned previously that you had received medical
5 care. Let's start off with your head and your face. Could you please
6 describe the injuries that you had, beginning with your head and your
8 A. My head, I have several scars. One is right up here at the top;
9 it is about 5 or 6 centimetres long. The other one is to the left side of
10 my head, the injury above my left eye. A broken nose, teeth, the right
11 side of my face, my right eye, with which I am having problems. After
12 this exchange, for two years the right side of my face and my right eye
13 were affected, so that the treatment took almost two years. I had a
14 twitch on that part of my face. And even now when the weather changes,
15 that part of my face goes numb and I often lose control over the mucus in
16 my mouth. Then here on the chin too I have a big scar. My saliva starts
17 coming out uncontrolled. I also had problems with my urinary tract, but
18 that was also treated by doctors. But maybe the worst of all is the still
19 existing traumas, the nightmares, so that I sleep very briefly at night.
20 Q. Let's just take a step back for a moment. What about your hearing
21 and your eyesight? Could you comment upon that?
22 A. Yes. My eyesight has deteriorated quite a bit in relation to what
23 it was before, that is, the period prior to my detention. But now, on my
24 right eye, I see much worse. The left eye is also damaged but not to that
25 extent. My vision has been reduced. As regards my hearing, on one
1 occasion when they beat me, from my left ear blood started running, and
2 the hearing in my left ear is impaired in relation to my right ear.
3 Doctors treated me for this as far as they were able, but still to this
4 day I have a hearing problem.
5 Q. Sir, let's take the body: the neck, the shoulders, the chest, the
6 ribs. What, if any, injuries did you suffer in the area of the body, the
7 trunk portion of the body?
8 A. Yes. I have eight broken ribs. When the weather changes, I have
9 bad pains in the rib area and in my back, frequently my neck goes stiff;
10 and I must repeat that's mostly when there's a change of weather. My
11 right kidney has been damaged. It has been moved from the blows.
12 Q. Sir, let's talk about your legs, your feet, and your hands, any
14 A. Yes. On my right hand, my little finger was broken. On my feet,
15 I don't have any serious injuries, but from the blows they received [as
16 interpreted], they hurt me frequently. I feel pain in my legs.
17 Q. Sir, you indicated that you've suffered injuries all over your
18 body, from head to toe basically. Did you have any of these injuries or
19 problems prior to your incarceration in this case?
20 A. No, none.
21 Q. Let's finally talk about psychologically. You indicated that you
22 sleep less. Tell us what it was like that period right after you were
23 exchanged and the time following that, up to today. Tell us what it's
24 been like, sir, for you.
25 A. At first it was very hard. For almost two years I had very bad
1 pains, almost whenever I moved; and then gradually, after taking
2 medication, the pain gradually subsided and became less pronounced. And
3 as I was saying, only when the weather changes abruptly, then the pain
4 reappears. My nerves, of course, are also not what they used to be after
5 all this, so that, as I say, I sleep little. I get these nightmares, so
6 that I take some pills. I also smoke more heavily than I used to.
7 Q. Did any of these problems you've just described exist prior to
8 your being arrested and detained in Bosanski Samac?
9 A. No, none of them.
10 MR. WEINER: Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination. Is anybody going to
12 cross-examine the witness? Yes, Counsel.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. I will start with
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: On behalf of Mr. Zaric's Defence, therefore -- one
17 second. Your Honours, before I start with cross-examining this witness, I
18 believe this is the right moment to tender one document.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Which document?
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Actually, it is the official translation of the
21 statement of Mr. Hasan Bicic, who was our previous witness. We just
22 entered an unofficial version, so we have received an official version and
23 I would like to tender it.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Which statement is this one, if I may -- you made it
25 where? What is the number it has already been exhibited?
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: The number is D84.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: 8/4.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: 8/4, not 84. 8/4.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Can we just check with the Registrar?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The B/C/S version was submitted as D8/4, and
6 there was a provisional English translation.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have that one formally numbered, please?
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you very much.
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon Mr. Bicic. My name is Aleksandar
12 Lazarevic. I represent Mr. Simo Zaric. I will be cross-examining you.
13 But before I start with my questions, I should like, on behalf of my
14 client, to express regret for everything that you went through during the
15 war and all the bad things that happened to you.
16 If I may now, I would just like to ask you to go back to the
17 situation as it was in Bosanski Samac a couple of months prior to the
18 outbreak of the conflict, that is, prior to the 17th of April, 1992.
19 Would it be right to say that prior to the outbreak of the conflict, the
20 atmosphere in town was tense, as a result of numerous acts of sabotage and
21 incidents that had occurred in the territory of Samac? Can that be said,
22 or not?
23 A. My answer would be that there were some incidents, such as the
24 destruction of some long-distance cables across the Sava River.
25 Q. Mr. Bicic, we will come back to that topic. My question relates
1 simply to the atmosphere among the people of Bosanski Samac at the time.
2 Was there some tension or fear felt by the people at the time?
3 A. I would say no rather than yes, because in the establishments that
4 we had, I had contact with all our guests, belonging to all ethnic groups
5 from our town. Some were tense, others were not, during those couple of
6 months. But there were people who were not tense, who did not believe
7 that a conflict would occur in the town itself, that is, in Bosnia and
9 Q. Yes, certainly, but I'm just asking you about the feelings of the
10 majority of citizens. I'm not asking you about individuals. I'm, rather,
11 referring to the general climate in town.
12 A. Well, yes, probably. Probably there was tension. That would be
13 my answer.
14 Q. Thank you. Let me now go on to certain incidents that occurred at
15 the time. I will just ask you to confirm whether they occurred or not and
16 whether this had an impact on the atmosphere among the people of Bosanski
17 Samac. Can we agree in saying that, among other incidents, there was the
18 one in which two young men were killed, two young men of Muslim ethnicity,
19 and a young woman of Serb ethnicity in the Valentino Cafe? Did this
20 incident occur?
21 A. Yes. There was an incident, but I can't really remember. Yes,
22 near the Sava, I remember.
23 Q. Did this cause a disturbance among the people, the fact that two
24 young men had been killed and a young woman wounded?
25 A. Yes. There was a lot of talk about that.
1 Q. Thank you. Now, let me ask you about another incident in which a
2 police patrol of the reserve police were wounded, three persons. I'll
3 give you their names: Nizam Ramusovic, Mirsad Mesic, and Danilo Vitomir.
4 Did that incident also occur?
5 A. Yes. I heard that some policemen - I don't know which - had
6 engaged in an exchange of fire with someone, probably these people you
8 Q. Thank you. Did this incident also provoke a reaction among the
9 people, a feeling of insecurity among the people, when people were shot
10 and wounded?
11 A. Yes, certainly, it did.
12 Q. And let me ask you about just one more incident. There were many
13 more, but I don't wish to take up too much time. Can we agree that
14 sometime in the end of March in 1992 barricades were set up in Samac? Can
15 you confirm that?
16 A. Yes. I think it was a Wednesday, which was the market day in
17 Samac, and I was working in our pizzeria when I heard that some barricades
18 had been put up, that people were not allowed to enter town by car but
19 only on foot.
20 Q. That's what I had in mind. Would you agree that those barricades
21 were put up by members of the Party of Democratic Action?
22 A. I'm not able to tell you that because I was not interested in
23 those things.
24 Q. So you don't know. Very well.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you have to wait for the witness to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 complete his sentence.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Bicic, can it be said that at the time, there was large-scale,
4 illegal arming of citizens in the territory of the municipality of
5 Bosanski Samac?
6 A. I don't know which citizens you have in mind when you say
7 large-scale arming by the citizens, because some citizens received weapons
8 from the Yugoslav People's Army, and I'm mostly referring to citizens of
9 Serb ethnicity and members of the 4th Detachment, whereas the majority of
10 people, like my brother, had to or were forced to buy weapons for
11 themselves with which they would perhaps protect their property and
13 Q. Mr. Bicic, I primarily had in mind the people who were, through
14 the army -- who were not issued weapons by the army or the police. I had
15 in mind physical persons who were not members of the army or the police.
16 Those are the people I had in mind. But I think you've already given me
17 an answer.
18 So it follows from your answer, I think, that your brother, Hasan
19 Bicic, purchased two automatic rifles of the Kalashnikov brand, with three
20 sets of ammunition. Is that right?
21 A. I think he bought them.
22 Q. When I said "procured," I meant "bought." Is that correct?
23 A. I've given you an answer.
24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bicic, I should like to move on to another area
25 now, and that is Territorial Defence. You said before this Trial Chamber
1 that with Alija Fitozovic, you discussed the topic of territorial defence
2 and that he asked you whether you wished to join the Territorial Defence,
3 which would be composed of the members of all ethnic groups living in the
4 region, as well as the 4th Detachment, which belonged to the JNA. Do you
5 remember having said that?
6 A. Yes, I do remember, and I did say that if all three nations and
7 members of that 4th Detachment were in that Territorial Defence, then he
8 could subscribe me to that too, write my name down.
9 Q. Yes, I completely agree that you put it that way, that that is
10 what you said.
11 I should now like to remind you of something else that you said,
12 and that is that this conversation took place in front of his office, not
13 far from your pizza parlour, perhaps some 50 metres away. Is that what
14 you said?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. May we then agree that that conversation that you had
17 with Mr. Alija Fitozovic took place in front of the building in which the
18 Islamic religious community was housed? Is that the same building?
19 A. It was the building --
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. I haven't finished answering.
22 Q. I apologise.
23 A. It is a building which lies in the street leading towards my
24 pizzeria, or rather, our pizzeria, some 50 metres away? I do not know
25 whether it was the building -- that is, there were boutiques there, there
1 were some apartments and offices. Now, those offices, who they belonged
2 to, I don't really know.
3 Q. Let me ask you one more thing: Was it the building where the SDA
4 party headquarters were located?
5 A. I don't know. There was a bakery. So it was a small building
6 with small offices, and a boutique, a bakery, and I can't remember all the
7 other things that were there.
8 Q. I'm asking you this because I have a piece of information
9 according to which Mr. Alija Fitozovic, before the war, worked in the
10 electrical company, electricity company, and that, if you agree with me,
11 is about a kilometre away from your pizzeria. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes. Before, he worked in the electricity company, but
13 then - electricity board - but then he told me that he had moved to the
14 Territorial Defence and that he was head of Territorial Defence. That was
15 his position.
16 Q. Thank you. I think we now have a very full picture of all this.
17 In connection with your conversation with Alija Fitozovic, did you
18 discuss the conversation with your kum, Stipo Cerlinski?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Did Stipo Cerlinski tell you that he had some
21 reservations with respect to that and that the 4th -- especially with
22 respect to the fact that the 4th Detachment would become a part of the
23 Territorial Defence?
24 A. Stipo Cerlinski, my kum, told me that he doubted very much that
25 the 4th Detachment would also come under the composition of the
1 Territorial Defence.
2 Q. Thank you. Well, that's what I meant when I said "had
4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Lazarevic, I wonder whether you might get the
5 witness to tell us what a "kum" is, a k-u-m, please.
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. I will do it.
7 Q. Mr. Bicic, for the Trial Chamber, I should like to ask you to
8 explain the term and concept of "kum."
9 A. In our parts, "kum" means a witness at a wedding ceremony, so he
10 was a witness, with his wife, at the wedding ceremony of me and my wife.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bicic. I think that is sufficient explanation.
12 Let us now move on to another topic, the Territorial Defence and
13 the moment that you were already being held in the Territorial Defence
14 building. In your statement, you described the circumstances under which
15 Dikan was killed and also how Lugar took you and your brother out, you and
16 your brother Hasan, how he took you to the yard of the TO and threatened
17 you with death. Do you agree that there was a realistic danger of you
18 being killed had you stayed on in the TO building? Was that a realistic
20 A. Well, as in any other camp, the camp that we passed through, the
21 danger was always present, that at every moment, every second, when people
22 turned up to beat us and ill-treat us, we felt the danger looming over us,
23 the danger that they might kill us with all the beatings and blows or,
24 quite simply, with their weapons or implements that they used.
25 Q. Yes, Mr. Bicic. My question referred to the TO building, when you
1 were in the TO building and when you were present at the events that took
2 place there. Was there a clear and realistic danger that you would be
3 killed, you and your brother, the two of you who were in the yard?
4 A. Yes, it did exist, quite certainly.
5 Q. We are -- let's stay with the TO building in Samac. We are still
6 there. And I want to ask you this: Did that danger exist -- was there
7 that threat for the other people in the TO? Did the danger exist for them
8 too? Could they have been killed too, just like that unfortunate Dikan?
9 A. Yes, they could have.
10 Q. Thank you. I should like now to move on and dwell for a moment on
11 your stay in the military barracks at Brcko. According to your statement,
12 nobody beat you there, you personally. I'm asking about you personally.
13 Is that correct?
14 A. Except the first night when I arrived and when I received several
15 blows to my back and when they tied my hands behind my back. But after
16 that, nobody beat me.
17 Q. You describe this in your statement as being pushed more.
18 A. Well, yes, but also with kicks, with knees in my back, and I was
19 tied. It wasn't actually pushing.
20 Q. Well, I don't say that they were very gentle. I'm not claiming
22 Let me just ask you: You say you were able to wash; is that
24 A. Yes, several days later.
25 Q. Thank you. You did not have to sing Chetnik songs there, did you,
1 or as my learned friend of the Prosecution termed them, Serbian patriotic
3 A. No, we did not.
4 Q. You told us about the event when you sang the Yugoslav hymn and
5 you said that you sang it in one breath and that you were surprised.
6 A. Yes, we were shocked, so we sang it from start to finish in a
7 single breath.
8 Q. Does that mean that you felt relieved compared to what the
9 situation was like in the Territorial Defence?
10 A. Well, at one given moment, as far as the song was concerned, we
11 did, and the fact that we weren't beaten any more. However, there, too,
12 there was a brandishing of weapons, a machine-gun actually, a heavy
13 machine-gun that had been posed on some tracks in the corridor some 20
14 metres away -- which was some 20 metres long. So we weren't particularly
15 safe there either, because the people would aim that heavy machine-gun at
16 us, the people in uniform, in the JNA army uniform, I mean.
17 Q. May we take it, then, that some of the prisoners who were
18 transferred from the TO building to Brcko were given a certain amount of
19 medical assistance there? In Brcko, I mean.
20 A. Yes. Nalic received assistance and several other people.
21 Q. Thank you. May we agree that the conditions of your stay at the
22 barracks in Brcko were significantly better than what they had been in the
23 TO building in Bosanski Samac?
24 A. Not the first few days, but the last two or three days that we
25 spent there, the conditions were actually the same, and there were 50 of
1 us in a small room, so we were not all able to sit down. Some of us had
2 to stand while others sat. But that was to begin with. But several days
3 after we had bathed and been interrogated and given some statements, those
4 of us who had given statements were then transferred to another cell, a
5 similar cell, but we were given a blanket there to cover ourselves with.
6 Q. Does that mean that we can say that in that second period, in the
7 second half of your stay, the conditions were a bit better, significantly
9 A. Well, not significantly better, but a bit better, I would say.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to ask you about the conduct towards
11 you in Brcko, how people behaved towards you, that is to say, on the part
12 of the people who were in charge of you. Did these people behave better
13 towards you than the people who held you at the TO building in Samac?
14 A. Yes, better, somewhat better.
15 Q. And finally, to round off this topic, let me ask you the
16 following: May we agree that your transfer from the Territorial Defence
17 building in Samac to the barracks in Brcko did away with the danger of you
18 being killed? Did it do away with that threat, killed or terrorised by
19 the Serbian special forces in Samac? Would that be correct to say?
20 A. Yes. That transfer did temporarily waylay the -- discard -- do
21 away with the danger of the threat of Serbian special forces, but quickly
22 after that, they took us towards Bijeljina, where we experienced the same
23 things as we had done in the Territorial Defence building, almost
24 identical events as far as the beatings were concerned and forcing us to
25 sing and kneel and all the other kinds of mistreatment, and significant
2 Q. Mr. Bicic, I was just speaking about the transfer to Brcko, and I
3 think you have already answered my question and said that that danger had
4 been temporarily postponed.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. That was my question.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, we would like to tender one document
8 to the Court.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can you describe it, if it has a date, and tell
10 us whether the Prosecution have been given a copy.
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. This is a statement of Mr. Bicic given to
12 Mr. Zaric in the barracks in Brcko on 28 of April, 1992. This document
13 was provided to the Defence by the Prosecutor, and we have here a B/C/S
14 version and the provisional translation in English. We already gave this
15 document to be officially translated, but we still haven't received it.
16 So for the moment, I would like to have the number for B/C/S version
17 and --
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Before we decide on the documents, we have
19 already had a slight problem with provisional translations before, and if
20 it's your intention to put the contents of the statement to the witness,
21 it's important that we have a full -- the acceptable translation in
22 English, because sometimes counsel or ourselves, as the Trial Chamber, get
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: I fully understand your words, Your Honour, and I
25 believe that this translation is pretty correct. As I have already said,
1 we gave this document to be translated by the official service here in the
2 Tribunal, and actually we expected to receive it today, but unfortunately
3 it wasn't finished yet. Also, I would like maybe to hear the opinion of
4 the OTP, because we gave them this translation, so ...
5 JUDGE MUMBA: I'll hear from the OTP. But on the translation, we
6 should not waste time, because we can use the Serbo-Croat if there are
7 passages read out loud by yourself or the witness and then our
8 interpreters can deal with the problem and then we can receive the
9 official translation, the English one, much later, rather than have the
10 provisional one.
11 I would like to hear from the Prosecution.
12 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, if it would help the Chamber, we, during
13 discovery, provided a final translation, an English copy. We have both
14 the B/C/S version and a final version or a certified translation. I have
15 two here. That's all I have. I didn't expect to --
16 JUDGE MUMBA: So you have the formal English translation?
17 MR. WEINER: Yes, we do.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think we should get that copy for the
19 Registry, and that's the copy the Trial Chamber will use. So we will have
20 the Serbo-Croat and the formal English translation.
21 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?
23 MR. WEINER: No objection. But once again, we weren't prepared to
24 file several copies of the English translation today, but I could provide
25 them tomorrow for the Court. I'd be happy to --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So counsel can proceed with the
2 statement. Can we have the copies so that we have the formal numbering
3 and all the parties concerned?
4 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I have one for counsel, and we can --
5 JUDGE MUMBA: The English?
6 MR. WEINER: Yes, a copy for counsel in English.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: So we'll get the Serbo-Croat from the Defence
8 counsel and then the formal English from the -- the formal English
9 translation from the Prosecution.
10 MR. PANTELIC: This is a real way of cooperation.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I mean, these are statements which are not in
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can go ahead. Let's have the numbers.
15 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be numbered Defence Exhibit D9/4
16 ter and the English D9/4.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Counsel can proceed.
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bicic, I should like to ask you to take a
20 look at the document before you. It is a two-page document; is that
22 A. Yes, it has two pages. But it is fairly illegible.
23 Q. I apologise for that. Perhaps I'll be able to help you. On the
24 first page, in the right-hand corner, do you see the signature "Muhamed
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Would you now take a look at page 2, the lower left-hand corner.
3 Does it say "Muhamed Bicic" there too?
4 A. No.
5 Q. On page 2. Page 2, please.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would you take a look at the document now, please.
8 A. Yes, I can take a look, but I'm sure that you yourself can see
9 that it is not very legible. I haven't got my glasses with me, so that --
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I didn't think that --
12 MR. WEINER: [Previous translation continues] ...
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe that copy can be given to the witness
14 for purposes of Defence counsel's questions, so that the witness can
15 easily read, if possible, although he has said that he hasn't got his
16 glasses. Maybe what you can do, if there are passages, like I said
17 before, you point out where the passages are to the witness and then you
18 do the reading, all right, slowly.
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Thank you very much, Your Honour. I will do
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bicic, is this the statement which you gave
22 at the barracks in Brcko to Simo Zaric on the 28th of April, 1992?
23 A. Probably it is.
24 Q. Bearing in mind the suggestion just made by the Trial Chamber and
25 Her Honour, I should like to quote some details from the statement, and
1 you will say whether that is what it says, yes or no, for the record.
2 Then I will ask you something with respect to those details.
3 In paragraph 1 of that statement, and the line is line 9 -- I'm
4 going to read it out to you and you try to follow, just to tell me whether
5 I've read it out properly:
6 "My brother Hasan, in early April, via some connections -- through
7 some of his connections, purchased two Kalashnikov automatic rifles with
8 three ammunition magazines each, and paid 700 German marks for them
10 Have I read this out correctly?
11 A. I assume you have, but I haven't got my glasses, as I say, and I
12 can't see the words clearly.
13 Q. Well, what I have just stated, did you say the same thing before
14 this Trial Chamber?
15 A. What you have just quoted, yes, I did say that my brother Hasan
16 bought two -- purchased two automatic rifles.
17 Q. That was my question. Thank you.
18 Now, the next sentence goes as follows:
19 "In addition, I had a hunting rifle and a pistol, for which I had
20 obtained permits from the SUP."
21 Did you state that, too, here before the Trial Chamber?
22 A. I did possess a hunting rifle and a pistol, and I had the
23 necessary licences and papers that were issued in SUP.
24 Q. I'm not questioning that, Mr. Bicic. I'm just asking you whether
25 you recounted that to the Trial Chamber, whether you said you had a
1 hunting rifle and a pistol, with a licence to carry it. Have you ever
2 told us that here in the courtroom?
3 A. Well, I've just said that I did have that.
4 Q. I should like now to refer to a portion of your statement which
5 says something in connection with Alija Fitozovic:
6 "He called me to the TO office, to his office at the TO, and told
7 us that a Territorial Defence was being set up in the town of Samac and
8 that it would include all three nationalities, including the 4th
9 Detachment of the JNA."
10 Did you say that here as well?
11 A. I said that in front of the office in which he worked - I don't
12 know what kind of office it was - I said that we had talked about that and
13 that I said to him that if all three nations, plus the 4th Detachment,
14 became part of the Territorial Defence, then I would be happy to join that
15 same organisation.
16 Q. Yes, I fully accept that. So that is, in principle, what you said
17 here in the courtroom, that Alija Fitozovic said that members of all the
18 nationalities would become members and that the 4th Detachment would too?
19 A. Yes, in front of the building.
20 Q. Thank you. Let me read out now:
21 "After that I spoke to Stipo Cerlinski, my kum, my best man, and
22 he said he had some reservations about that unit, particularly that he
23 doubted that the 4th JNA detachment formed in Bosanski Samac would join."
24 So you have already told us that.
25 A. Yes. He told me that he didn't believe that all these would join
1 the Territorial Defence.
2 Q. I don't wish to dwell extensively on this statement, but maybe
3 just one further point. When speaking about the weapons seized from you
4 when the special forces broke in, and you said, "We collected the weapons
5 that we owned in one place in our house," that is also something that you
6 have said here in Court.
7 A. Yes. Yes, in our living room, on the floor of the living room.
8 Q. "And then we got into a Golf vehicle and went to the public
9 security station, where we were detained."
10 A. We didn't get in; we were forced in. They beat us and had their
11 weapons pointed at our heads. And then they drove us in this Golf to the
12 police station.
13 Q. Yes, I agree that's what you said, but in fact, you were
14 arrested. They took you into custody and drove you to the police
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And after that, you were incarcerated in the SUP building, or
18 rather, the TO of Bosanski Samac?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So that's what you told us here in Court: First you were detained
21 in the SUP and then in the TO?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bicic, as far as your statement is concerned. I
24 just wish to clarify a few points. I have just one more question for
1 You have already said that when you gave this statement in Brcko,
2 that no one beat you, that no one threatened you, and that this was, in
3 fact, a frank conversation. So let me just ask you, in that connection:
4 Would it be right to say that what you stated during that conversation is
5 reflected in this statement? Or let me put it this way: Was the
6 statement correctly drawn up, and does it reflect what you said there?
7 A. I can't read the statement in its entirety, how correct it is, but
8 my signature is there. We really did have a discussion. I was not
9 beaten. We discussed also where we would go. I asked whether we could be
10 released in Brcko, because there was no war ongoing there, but I was not
11 given an answer. If that is what it says --
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you have told us all that in
13 the courtroom here, and it has all been recorded in the transcript. I
14 wish to thank you for testifying. I have no further questions for you.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you sit down, Counsel, I just want to make it
16 clear on the status of this statement and what the witness has said,
17 because he hasn't read it. He had never read it, so other than the
18 statements which you actually put to him, he can't be held against
19 everything in the statement. Yes, that is clear. Okay.
20 Any other counsel wishing to cross-examine the witness? I see
22 Any re-examination?
23 Oh, I'm sorry. Maybe I didn't wait for the translation. Yes.
24 Any other counsel wishing to cross-examine the witness? Yes, you can go
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. May I
2 just inquire are we working until 5.00, so I can adjust my
3 cross-examination accordingly, or later? Because we were told that we
4 would be working until 4.30.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes. I think all of us forgot that we were
6 supposed to have a break. Let me find out from the interpreters and maybe
7 from the Registry assistant.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me ask the interpreters whether it would be okay
10 if we went on to 5.00, because there is 25 minutes more.
11 THE INTERPRETER: I think so, yes, Your Honour. We will manage.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you very much. So you can
13 proceed. It just shows how relaxed all of us are this afternoon.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] And good afternoon, Mr. Bicic. My name is Dragan
17 Krgovic. I'm one of the Defence counsel for Mr. Miroslav Tadic, and I
18 have a few questions for you. I will not examine you in detail about the
19 things that you have told us about in detail, your arrest and the
20 treatment you received, but we will touch upon some other issues. So as
21 we have some 20 minutes available, and we'd like to get through the
22 cross-examination as quickly as possible, please give me a yes or no
23 answer or just say that you don't know, if you don't know, and then we'll
24 get through this more easily.
25 First of all, Mr. Bicic, during your testimony here in court, you
1 said that prior to the outbreak of the conflict, you and your brother had
2 taken your families out of Samac?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did the other people, regardless of their ethnicity, take their
5 families or parts of their families away to safety immediately prior to
6 the outbreak of the conflict?
7 A. Yes, but let me clear this up. On the 11th of April, there was a
8 rally in Bosanski Samac, in the square in front of the boutique, that was
9 owned by my wife and me. I was there close by, when the people going onto
10 the stage or the podium speaking through the microphones could be heard,
11 and they were accusing one another. Some people were pointing to their
12 own families that were in front of them and asking others where their
13 families were. And then my daughter told me, "School has been dismissed
14 and we have been given marks as if we have completed our grades," even
15 though school was supposed to continue for another two months before the
17 Q. Does that mean that even before this rally that you just
18 mentioned, people had taken away their families already?
19 A. Yes. Samac was mostly left without the Serbs, both in school as
20 well as in town. Especially the women and children had left, whereas the
21 adults stayed behind in town and could be seen.
22 Q. What about members of the Croatian ethnic group? Did they take
23 away their families too?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the Muslims?
1 A. Very few of them.
2 Q. Do you know that Mr. Tihic's family had left town just before
4 A. No, I don't know that.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, let me move on to another topic, and that is the
6 time you spent in the SUP building and the warehouse of the Territorial
7 Defence. During your testimony, you said that from the SUP building, you
8 were transferred to the TO building together with your brother, Sulejman
9 Tihic, [redacted], and an old Albanian. Isn't that what you said?
10 A. Yes, and a few other men from the other premises of the SUP
12 Q. In the TO building, you spent some ten days or so, didn't you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. While you were in the TO warehouse, did you ever see Miroslav
15 Tadic there?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Let me now go on to the procedure of your exchange and the
18 exchange itself. You said in your statement that at the playing field in
19 front of the school, there were many citizens who came to see you off when
20 you were being exchanged. Isn't that so?
21 A. Yes. Unofficially, informally, people approached the playground
22 and came up to about 10 metres from the buses.
23 Q. Were citizens of all ethnic groups present who came to greet you?
24 A. I'm unable to answer that. There was simply a large group of men
25 that were -- of people that were waving as we were leaving. We were
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 called out, and as we were called out, we got into the buses. I was
2 sitting on the side towards the school, so that I could only see over the
3 heads of other people, as I was sitting on the floor, that is, between the
4 rows of seats. So I could hardly see much, simply arms waving. So I
5 don't know who it was who came to see us off.
6 Q. Who called out your names when you came out of the building that
7 you were staying in?
8 A. The person who called us out was Sveto -- I forget his surname.
9 He was a teacher, a Montenegrin, who lived in our town for many years and
10 he was a teacher in the neighbouring village. I think he was a teacher in
11 the village of Tisina.
12 Q. If I tell you that it was Sveto Vasovic, would you agree?
13 A. Yes, that's right, Vasovic.
14 Q. Do you know Veljo Mastic perhaps?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Escorting those two buses that were taking you for the exchange,
17 were there any police cars?
18 A. I couldn't tell you. As I was saying, I was sitting on the
20 Q. You said that you saw Mr. Tadic in Gradiska when you were at the
21 parking lot there. Did you see Mr. Tadic in front of the school when you
22 were entering the buses?
23 A. No, I didn't.
24 Q. When you were taken for the exchange, was Dragan Lukac with you in
25 the bus?
1 A. I think that he was in another bus, in the other bus, if I'm not
2 mistaken. I can't remember. I don't know.
3 Q. Earlier, during your testimony, you described the time you spent
4 in Bosanska Gradiska. Are you certain that no one got off the bus in
6 A. From the bus that I sat in and got up in to stretch my legs, like
7 all the other people, I didn't see anyone getting out, except Sveto and
8 the driver. I don't know whether there was anyone else in the back, any
9 other member of the escort who was accompanying us.
10 Q. From your bus or from the other bus, did people go down, step down
11 on the pavement, and some go to the toilet?
12 A. No. The people that were being taken to be exchanged did not.
13 Q. Did you see Dragan Lukac sitting in the cafe next to Miroslav
14 Tadic and drinking beer?
15 A. No, I didn't see him.
16 Q. But you did see Mr. Tadic?
17 A. Yes. I saw Mr. Tadic with Mirko Pavic, my neighbour, and
18 policeman, who used to be a policeman before, too, in the Samac police
19 station, and with some other men who were also wearing either police
20 uniforms or civilian clothing.
21 Q. Do you know Simo Krunic?
22 A. I can't remember.
23 Q. He was also a policeman?
24 A. I can't remember.
25 Q. On page 3028 of your statement, you stated that in the gym of the
1 elementary school, a large number of old people were brought in and that
2 you knew many of them?
3 A. The evening prior to the exchange?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You said that some of them were over 80 years old, didn't you?
7 A. Yes, there were some old grannies who could hardly walk.
8 Q. Do you know the names of any one of those people who were over 80
9 years old?
10 A. I do not. They're mostly from the environs of Samac, so I didn't
11 know them.
12 Q. Mr. Bicic, when you reached the place for the exchange, were there
13 any policemen that you may have seen in the cafe, or other policemen in
15 A. When we arrived?
16 Q. No, no. During the actual exchange at the petrol station.
17 A. I saw men in uniform from UNPROFOR or whatever they were.
18 Q. Did you perhaps see representatives of the International
20 A. Yes. I just said, men from UNPROFOR.
21 Q. What about the OSCE or something?
22 A. I couldn't really tell you exactly who they were, but anyway, they
23 were foreign citizens, foreign nationals.
24 Q. Were some of them representing the Red Cross?
25 A. Possibly, but I can't tell you. I don't know.
1 Q. Do you know Mladen Borbeli?
2 A. If you mean Mladjo --
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Yes, I do know him.
5 Q. What about Stipo Vukovic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you know Alija Cosic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you know Alojz Balogh?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you know Lonac, Ivan?
12 A. Yes. He used to be a policeman or a police chief.
13 Q. Did they go to be exchanged together with you?
14 A. Some were with me in the bus, like Stipo, I think Borbeli. I
15 can't remember now.
16 Q. Do you remember that they crossed into Croatia with you?
17 A. I don't remember, because when I was brought to the buses that
18 were supposed to take us on, I was separated by my friends, put in a car,
19 and driven off in the direction of Slavonski Brod. And at a petrol
20 station some, perhaps, 10 kilometres away, my brother was waiting for me,
21 and then they took me to have a bath first and tidy myself up, and then to
22 the hospital. The others were transferred, I think, to Bosanski Brod. I
23 don't know exactly.
24 Q. Do you remember that in Dragalic, when you were being exchanged,
25 Miroslav Tadic, or anyone else, asked you, asked people individually,
1 whether they wanted to be exchanged?
2 A. I don't remember, because I quickly separated from the group and
3 joined these friends of mine. So I didn't rejoin the group again except
4 when, close to the buses, I spotted my aunt and her husband and son.
5 Q. Do you know where these people that I just mentioned are now? I'm
6 referring to Mladen Borbeli, Stipo Vukovic, Alija Cosic, Alojz Balogh, and
7 Ivan Lonac.
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Do you know perhaps whether they're living in Samac?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. You said that you were met there by friends. Who did they learn
12 from when you were coming? Do you know that, and did they tell you how
13 they learnt about it?
14 A. No. They attended each exchange, together with my brother, who
15 kept waiting in the hope that I would appear in the group that was being
17 Q. Did they tell you who they heard from when the exchange would take
19 A. I don't remember. I don't know.
20 Q. Do you know that there was a commission for the exchange of
21 prisoners of the HDZ -- I'm sorry, of the HVO?
22 A. Yes. I learnt that in hospital while I was being examined. I met
23 some people who came to see me and greet me.
24 Q. Have you heard of Mijo Matanovic?
25 A. Yes, I've heard of him.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Do you know that he was president of the Commission for the
2 Exchange of Prisoners of War and Arrested Civilians of the Croatian
3 Defence Council, the HVO?
4 A. Yes, I know that he worked in that team of people who were in
5 charge of that.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, I have no further questions. I've
7 finished my cross-examination.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I think we -- the Prosecution, will you
9 be re-examining? Or is there somebody -- oh, Mr. Zecevic. Okay.
10 MR. PANTELIC: Me too. Me too, Madam President. Don't forget us.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Yes. We'll adjourn. I think we have
12 overworked our interpreters. We will adjourn and continue our proceedings
13 tomorrow at 0930 hours. And tomorrow, up to Friday, we shall follow the
14 usual programme: 0930, and then, in the afternoon, 1530 hours. Thank
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.58 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 31st day of
18 October 2001, at 0930 a.m.