1 Monday, 5 November 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.00 p.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav
9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.
11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good afternoon. On
12 behalf of my client, I would like to point out a fact; namely, duly taking
13 into account all the problems involved in the organisation of these
14 proceedings and the proceedings themselves, and also the gravity of his
15 position and the position of the other accused who came to this building
16 this morning at 8.30 and since then they have been in cells, on their own,
17 for them and for their psychological condition, this is unbearable. They
18 would kindly ask the Honourable Trial Chamber to look into this situation
19 and to prevent this from happening again, namely, from having them brought
20 to the Court building and then not knowing whether Mr. Simic will come or
21 when. So now, after all that time, they have to spend another three or
22 four hours here. They should follow the proceedings. They say that they
23 have certain difficulties with their concentration and things like that.
24 I would kindly like to ask you the following: If there is the
25 possibility - and I believe there is such a possibility - to allow my
1 client to address the Trial Chamber directly. Thank you.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Why? Is there anything you can't speak for him?
3 Because if the problem is what you have expressed, then it is understood.
4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] That's it, basically.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Then there's no need for the accused to
6 address the Chamber directly, because this is really an administrative
7 matter. It's unfortunate that this is what happened today. The Trial
8 Chamber was not aware. One would have thought that they would have been
9 taken back, especially after it was decided that the proceedings can't
10 start earlier than 1500 hours. It's unfortunate. The Trial Chamber will
11 see to it that this doesn't happen again, and the Registry assistant will
12 take up the matter with the people responsible for the keeping of the
13 accused here and the transportation, especially in this case, where we
14 have these unusual problems which are not common with other trials.
15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you
16 also for the efforts that you will make in order to improve their
17 situation. Thank you.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution still continuing with
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
21 WITNESS: IBRAHIM SALKIC [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examined by Mr. di Fazio: [Continued]
24 Q. Mr. Salkic, you've told us about the period of time that you were
25 in Batkovic and that you were being kept in some sort of agricultural
1 storage facility there. Is that the place that you were eventually
2 exchanged from?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I want you to turn your attention to the period of time
5 immediately preceding your transfer from Batkovic and your eventual
6 exchange. Firstly, in the period of time shortly before your exchange,
7 did you see any of the defendants at Batkovic?
8 A. Yes, yes. I saw -- you see how names can just slip your mind.
9 Brko we called him. Miroslav Tadic.
10 Q. Where were you when you saw him? I know you were at Batkovic, but
11 what were you doing? Were you doing any work, or were you just sitting
12 around as a prisoner? Under what circumstances did you see him?
13 A. Yes. The first time I saw him in Batkovici, it was a few days
14 before the exchange would actually take place. And I actually was on that
15 list for that exchange. This was probably a preparation for our
16 exchange. I saw him from the yard. There was a barbed-wire fence around
17 the yard, and there were two submachine-guns at two corners that were
18 there in order to prevent anyone from escaping. During the day, you could
19 walk around there a bit. I did not go to work on that day because the
20 proceedings had been initiated against me, so I saw very well when the
21 gentleman went from the car to the office, to the office of this warden of
22 the camp, prison.
23 Q. Thank you. Just -- I'd like to clarify two points that arise from
24 your answer. You say that you were actually on the list for that
25 exchange. On the day that you have just described when you saw Mr. Tadic,
1 did you become aware of your name being included on any list, or did you
2 find out about that at a later stage?
3 A. No, no. I found that out only later when they called out our
4 names in the morning. They said the names of some persons who were not
5 supposed to go and work that day. Some people went to work; I didn't.
6 They said that we should stay behind. They did not explain to us why they
7 did not call our names out.
8 Q. Thank you. I'll get on to the list, then, at a later point.
9 The second matter that I wanted to clarify is that you didn't --
10 you didn't go to work that day because "the proceedings had been initiated
11 against me." At the time that you saw Mr. Tadic in Batkovic, had the
12 court proceedings in Bijeljina been completed? Or were they still
13 ongoing? Or were you meant to go to Bijeljina that very day? Can you
15 A. No, no. Actually, they kept us in Bijeljina only for a few
16 hours. Then they brought us to this hangar, and then these people who
17 were staying at the hangar were people against whom these criminal
18 proceedings had already been initiated and they had already been
19 convicted. There would people there whose sentences had already been
20 pronounced by this court.
21 Q. I see. So was that the case for the majority of the people there;
22 in other words, that they had been convicted and were serving their
24 A. No, no, no. In the other hangar on the other side -- actually, in
25 the other two hangars, there were other people, people whose turn had not
1 come yet for criminal proceedings to be initiated. So in this hangar,
2 there were only people against whom criminal proceedings had been
3 initiated and had been completed. I know two of them: Bahrija Begic and
4 the other one is Suljic, I think, Jadrenko. They had already had
5 sentences pronounced; five, six, seven years of imprisonment, I don't
7 Q. I understand now, Mr. Salkic. Thank you. What I want to know is
8 this: I take it from your answer, there were three hangars, one of which
9 kept sentenced prisoners, and were you in that one; is that right?
10 A. Yes, yes, but also those against who proceedings were only
11 initiated, whose proceedings were just underway.
12 Q. Yes. I understand. Thank you very much. Now, just one last
13 question on the hangars. Were these three hangars all part of one
14 complex, or were they widely separated, different parts of Batkovic?
15 A. Well, this was at a big agricultural farm where they stored grain,
16 so this was in one complex within one compound but at two different
17 localities. They were about 150 to 200 metres from one another.
18 Q. After you had been to court, were you transferred from one of the
19 hangars to this new hangar in which prisoners awaiting trial or serving
20 sentences were kept?
21 A. Yes. I was previously staying in one of the two hangars, and I
22 was there only perhaps for an hour, an hour and a half, and then they took
23 me to this court, where the proceedings had been initiated, and I did not
24 return there any more. I went to the other hangar over there, where
25 people who were already convicted were staying or people whose trials were
2 Q. Thank you. Now, in this hangar where people who had been
3 convicted or who were awaiting trial, I'd like to you tell us what their
4 ethnic background was and whether there were any soldiers or combatants
5 amongst them, please.
6 A. These were Muslims and Croats. There were only four or five
7 officers of the former Yugoslav People's Army. As far as I could hear,
8 they did not want to take part in the war, and they were detained together
9 with us, and they had special treatment, different treatment from us.
10 They were the only ones from who were in uniform. Actually, they were not
11 in uniform. They were in civilian clothes. But they were addressing them
12 in a different way, in such and such a way. They were not wearing
14 Q. Did you see -- just answer this next question with a yes or a no.
15 You've told us that you saw Mr. Tadic on an occasion. Did you see him
16 again at Batkovic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How much time passed between you seeing him on the first occasion
19 and the second occasion? Approximately, if you can't tell us precisely.
20 A. Three to four days.
21 Q. Can you tell us if any of the prisoners in the hangar in which you
22 now found yourself were doing any forced labour?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I don't want you to go into the detail, but can you give us an
25 idea of how many, what sort of proportion of the prisoners were doing
1 forced labour?
2 A. Well, as far as forced labour is concerned, about 80 per cent of
3 the people from this hangar went there, perhaps even 90 per cent of all
4 the people there.
5 Q. Now, you've told us that you saw Mr. Tadic on this first
6 occasion. I think you said that you saw him beyond the barbed wire. How
7 long did you see him for? In other words, were you able to look at him
8 for quite a long time, or was it just a glimpse as he passed by? Can you
9 please tell us.
10 A. I saw him only when passing by to the office of this warden, as we
11 called him, the warden of this camp. It could have been about 15 metres
12 or something like that. However, I did not see him throughout. I saw him
13 quite well, very well, as a matter of fact, for about 10 metres or so.
14 Q. All right. Did you speak to him, or was it just a question of you
15 seeing him and his walking on to wherever it was that he was going?
16 A. Yes, I saw him well, but I did not talk to him. I just saw him,
17 that is to say.
18 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to ask you of the circumstances under
19 which you next saw him. Was it in the same -- imprisoned in the same
21 A. Yes, still.
22 Q. And you've told us it was a matter of a few days later.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Tell us now how it was that you came to see him again on this
25 second occasion, please.
1 A. Well, this is the way it was: A guard came. He called out our
2 names. Those were the same names that were called out when they said who
3 should not go to work that day. They took us out in front of this
4 building where the warden's office was. That is to say, they took us out
5 of the compound, or rather, beyond the wire. That was the second time
6 that I saw Mr. Tadic.
7 Q. And you were taken beyond the wire. What happened next?
8 A. Then they searched all of us. They took away all the papers that
9 we had from the court. They said that if anybody would hide such a paper,
10 he could easily lose his life. So they took away all these papers. They
11 didn't take the little bit of clothing we had. That is to say, that all
12 the papers we had were taken away from us.
13 Q. Now, I think you said on Friday that you managed to retain some
14 papers. Are these the papers that you -- are these the sort of papers
15 that were taken from the other prisoners but which you managed to somehow
16 secrete and keep with you?
17 A. Yes. Yes. Approximately this could have been on the same day, in
18 the afternoon hours. They searched the entire hangar, and they took other
19 things from other people. I had a hunch that the same thing could happen,
20 so then I took my shoe, lifted the insole, and I put this in. Since I had
21 already had two hearings in court, there were lots of papers. And they
22 did not look for this one particular paper. They didn't look at all of
23 this in detail. So this first paper that said that criminal proceedings
24 were being initiated against me, I managed to get that one out, and I took
25 it out with me when I was exchanged.
1 Q. Can I ask you why you were keen to keep this paper? What
2 significance did it hold for you?
3 A. Well, it never occurred to me that it would be this kind of a
4 court, but I thought that I should have some paper so that it would be
5 known what kind of stupid things we were being charged with.
6 Q. And is this the paper that you say can be faxed to us because it's
7 at your home, faxed to the Prosecution?
8 A. Yes. Yes, yes. That's at my home right now. I had intended to
9 take it here; however, since time was so short when I was about to leave,
10 this wallet I have with telephone numbers, papers, my camp ID and things
11 like that, it just stayed behind. So if necessary, I can ask them to fax
13 Q. At some point did you ascertain that you were to be exchanged?
14 A. When we had already got out, when they read out our names,
15 actually, they already started saying that we were going to be exchanged.
16 When we saw Mr. Tadic, we knew that he was involved in these exchanges, so
17 even before it was announced, we knew that this was the group that would
18 be exchanged.
19 Q. How did you know that Mr. Tadic was involved in these exchanges?
20 I'm not asking you about knowledge that you may have acquired since, but
21 I'm asking you about the position back then, when you were in the camp.
22 At that point in time, what was it that made you conclude that Mr. Tadic
23 was involved in the exchanges? Think back to the time that you're
24 standing there with your name being read out. What would have made you
25 say then that Mr. Tadic was involved in the exchanges?
1 A. We all knew that Mr. Tadic was carrying out these exchanges,
2 because he came earlier, and we heard about it. It was known from day one
3 when these exchanges started that that is the way things were going
4 involving this gentleman. I also heard this from others that there were
5 other ways for people to get out, even if they would not be on the list.
6 They told me about one particular man, and I had the opportunity of seeing
7 that myself. If you ask me, perhaps I can explain that to you as well.
8 Q. Will it provide us with insight as to why you say that Mr. Tadic
9 was involved in carrying out the exchanges? If so, please tell us.
10 A. On one occasion I saw in the camp my sister, whose name is
11 Jasminka, Beba. She said that she went to see Mr. Tadic in order to see
12 what the possibilities were for me going out on an exchange, because time
13 had been going by and by. And he said that it would take a long time for
14 me to get out. And that turned out to be true. It took 14 months for me
15 to get out.
16 Q. Where did Jasminka see you?
17 A. This was while I was still at the primary school.
18 Q. How did she manage to get in to see you?
19 A. Well, it could happen when some of the guards would be, as we used
20 to put it, very simply, a good man, and then a person could get in, not
21 for a long time, for a minute or two, and you just ask, like, what the
22 news was, whether somebody got killed or whether somebody was hurt or
23 whatever. But we couldn't talk for very long. But she just told me this
24 very quickly.
25 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, can we go back to your -- Batkovic,
1 please. Your name was read out. You realised that you were to be
2 exchanged. Were you placed on buses?
3 A. No. They placed us on a truck.
4 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. And how many of you were placed on the truck?
5 A. As for this exchange from Batkovic, there were 16 of us who had
6 left then.
7 Q. Where were you taken?
8 A. From Batkovic, they transferred us to Samac. They practically
9 drove us to Samac, where they detained us at the TO building again.
10 Q. Thank you. In the -- I'll withdraw that.
11 Can you tell us what Mr. Tadic was doing during the course of the
12 trip from Batkovic to Bosanski Samac?
13 A. Well, I can't really say anything, because on the journey itself,
14 I didn't see him any more. But he came to -- he came to Samac when we
15 did, so he was probably in another car or something.
16 Q. I see. Did you see him on -- upon your arrival in Samac?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Now, can you --
19 A. He handed us over there.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, you were taken into the TO building. Can you
21 tell us of the sort of reception you received at the TO building on this
23 A. Well, it's not that we were received. You can't put it that way.
24 You are just bringing in an inmate whose life is worthless. When you say
25 "received," it makes me think of a very nice reception, when you are
1 really making an effort about someone. However, I'll tell you what it was
2 like. We came there around -- sometime during the day, and until 6.00
3 p.m., we did not have any problems whatsoever. And for about an hour, an
4 hour and a half, we did not have any problems. That's what I'm trying to
6 Q. At the beginning of this trial, Mr. Salkic, you experienced some
7 difficulties hearing. Do you have any hearing loss?
8 A. No, no. I have exceptionally good hearing. That is to say, I did
9 have exceptionally good hearing. But from that 6.00 p.m. to 4.00 a.m. in
10 the morning, my hearing was to suffer greatly.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like you to tell the Court how it was -- what
12 happened in that period of time, and in particular I'd like to you tell
13 the Court how it was that your hearing suffered on that occasion.
14 A. About 6.00, perhaps a little later, Mr. Todorovic appeared with
15 his entourage. There were five or six of them with him: Pop, Zvaka, Sole,
16 and the old beaters. And Stevan ordered me to kneel down in front of him,
17 which of course I had to do. He kicked me several times in my chest and
18 stomach, and I remember him saying to the others that they shouldn't beat
19 us in visible places because we would be up for the exchange.
20 At one particular moment, Pop - that's what his nickname was, they
21 called him Pop - came up to me from behind and hit me on the ears with the
22 two palms of his hands, and from this compression, he broke my eardrums,
23 and at the same time, he kicked me and I flew forward, I fell forward, and
24 Mr. Todorovic proceeded to kick me. When he took aim for my stomach, he
25 actually missed my stomach and hit me in the face, kicked me in the face,
1 and I had a swelling and came to the actual spot for the exchange. I'll
2 tell you about that later on. I fell by the line. But they beat us, four
3 or five of us, and for one they used a bayonet, which they stabbed one of
4 these young guys with, the two guys were from Rijeka in Croatia. They
5 beat us unbearably. We couldn't take it any more. And I think that
6 Mr. Tadic will confirm this: He called me out for an interview, probably
7 with his superior.
8 Q. I'll get on to that interview in -- that you mentioned in due
9 course. Were you removed from the TO the next morning, or the next day?
10 A. Yes. From there, we got into the buses and set out to the spot
11 where the exchange was supposed to take place.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment
13 while I confer with my colleagues?
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I may be referring to the
17 Times map, and I regret to say I've forgotten the exhibit number of it,
18 the large map which is behind us. But I'd like to have a brief look at it
19 before I do use it, if I use it.
20 Might I ask that my colleague, Mr. Weiner, be permitted to go and
21 get the map while I continue so we don't lose any time?
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that's okay.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
24 Q. All right. Now, you said that you got onto buses and set out for
25 the spot where the exchange would take place. Did you -- at that point in
1 time, did you see Mr. Tadic, at about the time that you were loading onto
2 the buses and getting ready to start the journey?
3 A. Yes. In front of the SUP and the TO, I didn't see him, because
4 there was a crowd. There were a lot of people there, civilians, Muslims,
5 and Croats who had stayed on, so that we were looking to see whether we'd
6 see any people we knew of our families or relatives or something like
7 that. So they didn't really need to make any lists or call out names.
8 Q. Do I take it that there were others who were exchanged with you
9 but who did not appear to have been imprisoned or incarcerated, as you and
10 your fellow prisoners had been?
11 A. Yes. Standing around the buses, there were Muslims and Croats who
12 had not been incarcerated, who -- those who were ready and prepared for
13 the exchange were somewhere else, and they were loaded up onto the buses.
14 We couldn't see that, nor did we know. So the people there were Muslims
15 and Croats who were still free, moving around town.
16 Q. Did they have -- did the people who were obviously civilians and
17 who hadn't been in prison but who were to be exchanged have their
18 possessions with them, little suitcases and so on?
19 A. Well, those two buses stopped at the village of Crkvina, and that
20 is about 4 kilometres away from Samac, and they would take them in with
21 their belongings into that village hall, as we referred to it, whereas us
22 detainees were separated to the right, and they searched all our
23 belongings. And if anybody had any valuables or money, they were
24 confiscated, but they had nothing to confiscate from us any more because
25 we had moved around and they'd already done that. But nonetheless, they
1 did search us all, but didn't find anything, no valuables. No valuables
2 left on us. I heard that jewellery, money, gold, valuables were taken
3 away, anybody who had taken these things when they went for the exchange.
4 Q. What was the purpose in stopping at Crkvina? Do you know?
5 A. Yes. I said for the search.
6 Q. All right. I see.
7 A. To see if anybody had anything left over and if they did, to
8 confiscate it.
9 Q. Did you see any of the civilians - those who had some belongings
10 with them - being searched?
11 A. Yes. They were taken there. Some were crying and said --
12 everybody said, "They'd taken everything that we had left. I'm going into
13 the world now, and I have nothing left with me." So there was just 10
14 metres between us and them.
15 Q. Did you -- I'll withdraw that question.
16 How many buses all together were involved in this particular
18 A. There were two buses, but they were so full, so crammed,
19 jam-packed. There were 150, 160, maybe 170 people in them. I can't give
20 you an exact figure, but lots.
21 Q. And where were you taken after Crkvina?
22 A. In Crkvina we got into the buses again, and they took us off in
23 the direction of Modrica, some 50 kilometres, where the road goes on to
24 Derventa, and we continued in the direction of Banja Luka. However, we
25 didn't take the left turning to Banja Luka; we went right towards
1 Gradiska. And nearby, there's a place called Dragalic, which is where the
2 exchange would take place.
3 Q. Where is Dragalic?
4 A. Dragalic is not far from Gradiska, in the neighbouring republic of
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Usher, might I ask, with the Court's
7 permission, that the Times map be placed on the easel just briefly.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, and then we can check whether it has an Exhibit
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE MUMBA: It's P15, I understand.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm grateful to the Chamber.
13 Q. Mr. Salkic, could I ask you just to stand up and see if you can
14 point out -- see if you can find Dragalic or Dragalici - I'm not sure how
15 you pronounce it - and then point it out to us.
16 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I had taken off my
18 Q. Mr. Salkic, could you please have a look at the map and see if you
19 can locate either the town or village of Dragalic; and if you can't find
20 it, try and find the area in which it's located, in any event. Okay?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Get close to the map and have a good old look and tell us if you
23 can find it.
24 A. It would be in this area here, this section between Okucani and
1 MR. DI FAZIO: May I approach the map itself and have a look
2 myself, if Your Honours please?
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Nova Gradiska, and Okucani
5 is here. This is the cross. We were exchanged between Okucani and
6 Gradiska on the motorway.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the witness is indicating
8 an area on the map near Nova Gradiska, in Croatia, and I think that should
9 be sufficient for the --
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: The precise location is not a matter of great
12 significance for the Prosecution, but it's inside Croatia and it's in that
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
15 MR. DI FAZIO:
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salkic. Resume your seat, please.
17 All right. Now, you told us that you were taken there. Tell us
18 how events unfolded after you had arrived at the exchange point.
19 A. Yes. Well, it seemed to go on forever, a whole year, but
20 actually, it was one or two hours. But it seemed to be eternal. And
21 there were even rumours that the exchange wouldn't actually take place,
22 which made us even more nervous. But nonetheless, the exchange did take
23 place eventually. The people crossed over to one side and the others came
24 over to the other side. And when I was saying goodbye to my
25 friends - they didn't let us say goodbye while we were in the bus. I was
1 saying goodbye to the civilians - Mr. Tadic at one point came and stood
2 next to me and asked me to have a talk with him.
3 Q. What did he say?
4 A. He told me that he had been sent by a superior of his, a
5 high-ranking superior from the 1st Corps, or the 5th Corps perhaps, Banja
6 Luka corps, and that he wanted to see me and hear who had done what they
7 had done to my face. And I answered in the affirmative. I said yes, I
8 wanted to tell them who had done it to me.
9 Q. Yes, please continue.
10 A. Anyway, all this was taking place at the petrol pump, and he took
11 me over to the man who wanted to see me. He looked at me, and I looked at
12 him, and he asked him, "Miro, who did this to this man?" Miro told me to
13 say who it was, and I said that it was Stevan Todorovic, such-and-such,
14 and that he had done such-and-such a thing to me.
15 And at that point, a man from Batkovici interfered, somebody who
16 was the chief or the security chief or something like that. He
17 interrupted and he told Tadic, "Miro, I didn't give you people like this.
18 I gave you people who were perfectly in order. They were in a proper
19 state." And I know that he said to Tadic, "Miro, you can come to Batkovic
20 in future, just bringing a list of people for the time and place of the
21 exchange. I'm not going to give you any more people for them to end up
22 looking like this man here." And I remember very well that Mr. Tadic said
23 to him, "Well, it's not my fault," he said. And I went away from there.
24 I left.
25 Q. Did you succeed in crossing over the war lines and getting into
2 A. Yes. It was the section of Croatia that was under UNPROFOR's
3 control, and that's where the exchange took place. We got into the buses
4 and were driven off towards Zupanja, Orasje. And between Zupanja and
5 Orasje, we crossed the river Sava, which is the border between Croatia and
6 Bosnia, in fact, and I reached the village of Domalja [phoen].
7 Q. Which village? The name of the village, please, the full name of
8 the village.
9 A. Domaljevac. Domaljevac.
10 Q. And is that now in the Federation part of Bosnia?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And is that just a matter of some kilometres down the road from
13 Bosanski Samac?
14 A. Yes. Before the war, the village belonged to the Samac
15 municipality. It is just 12 kilometres from Samac.
16 Q. Is that where you now live?
17 A. Well, I live even closer to Samac, also in the Federation. The
18 village is called Grebnice where I live.
19 Q. And did you remain in that area, in Domaljevac and Grebnice, in
20 the years following your release? Basically, have you been in that area
21 ever since?
22 A. No. I was there -- actually, I was on the battlefront until my
23 wife and two children arrived, and they too had spent seven whole months
24 in a camp --
25 Q. Where?
1 A. -- and they were exchanged. The camp was called Zasovica. That's
2 also a Croatian village which was completely emptied of Croats, and later
3 on they set up a camp for Muslims and Croats there at that spot.
4 Q. How far from Bosanski Samac is Zasovica?
5 A. About 5 kilometres, 6 at the most, going into the actual village.
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Would the Chamber just bear with me for one moment,
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, I'd just like the
11 witness to point out to the Chamber the small village of Zasovica. You
12 can see that on the map of Bosanski Samac and environs. Again, I regret
13 to say I just don't have the -- my colleague tells me it's Exhibit P9.
14 It's the map of Bosanski Samac.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: If it could just be quickly placed on the ELMO, we
17 can identify where Zasavica is -- Zasovica, I should say.
18 Q. Can you just point out to Their Honours where one can see the
19 village of Zasovica?
20 A. If you move from Samac on the Samac-Modrica road, you turn off the
21 road and there is a small bridge, and that's where the village of Zasovica
22 is located.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Usher. I've finished
24 with that.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: You indicated where it was shown on the map.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, it's marked on the map, so we don't need to
2 mark it or anything like that, if Your Honours please, but for purposes of
3 the transcript, the witness did identify that the village of Zasovica.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
6 Q. Now, I know that you weren't there at Zasovica, and I know you
7 have no direct knowledge of what the place was, but from anything that you
8 have heard, can you tell us who was kept there, who was imprisoned there?
9 A. Yes. And my wife spent a lot of time there. You have already
10 heard that my daughter was three and a half and seven months, actually,
11 when she was incarcerated. My son was already 12 years old. My wife --
12 that is to say, the children had only just been born, some of them. I
13 don't know whether there were those who had -- who were actually babies.
14 There were quite a bit of elderly people too, who I heard had died from --
15 of old age, and that was the last few moments of their lives. And they
16 all went to do forced labour. For my wife, I can guarantee that because
17 she told me about it.
18 When they took them to Odzak, they had them loot the houses and
19 factories and work on the factory farms, to pick plums for slivovitz and
20 pick the maize, the corn, and the kinds of physical labour that she had
21 never done before.
22 Q. Can you tell us - and again I know it's only from what you have
23 heard - who was imprisoned there? By that, I mean the ages of people who
24 were imprisoned there and the sex of people who were imprisoned there, if
25 there was anything in particular as far as those features are concerned.
1 A. Well, this is how it was. There were Muslims and Croats. Nobody
2 else was shut up there. There were women and there were children, as well
3 as elderly people. Able-bodied -- there were no able-bodied men there
4 because if they wanted to incarcerate an able-bodied man, then he was with
5 us in the camp we were in, where they kept us men.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, you also said that you saw action after your
7 release. Where did you fight?
8 A. Well, yes. I was in the Croatian Defence Council. That's where I
9 spent - and I can give you the exact date too - up until 1994. And when
10 my wife was exchanged, that was then - and I was to hear about this from
11 her - she was exchanged on the other side of the Federation, where the
12 Muslims and Croats were at war, so that she was not able to come in this
13 circuitous route to meet up with me. I didn't see her for two years --
14 actually, two years minus 16 days, 16 days less than two years.
15 Q. How old was your child, your daughter, I should say, when you were
16 arrested? How old was she when you were reunited with her?
17 A. She was three years and two months old. She was a little, little
18 girl. And my son was barely 11. When we met up, he was a different child
19 altogether by that time, and when he saw me for the first time, he said to
20 me, "Daddy, you're not as fat as you used to be." I don't want to talk
21 about that.
22 Q. All right. Now, I just need to ask you a few more questions, and
23 then I'll be finished asking you questions, Mr. Salkic.
24 A. Yes. Please go ahead.
25 Q. Up until the time that your name was read out on a list by Mr. --
1 by Mr. Tadic, did you have any input, any influence, any say --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel?
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection, a leading
4 question. The witness did not say that Tadic had read out any kind of
6 A. Well, I'll say this ten times if I need to.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: I think Mr. Krgovic's objection is -- may be
8 correct. I apologise if I led the witness. I didn't mean to. But I'll
9 set matters straight with the witness.
10 Q. Mr. Salkic, I just want to know about the list. You mentioned it
11 already briefly. I assumed somebody read it out. Can you tell us who in
12 fact did read out the list of the names, of the 16 names of the men who
13 were to be exchanged from Batkovic.
14 A. Well, loading us up into that truck, in order to take us off to
15 Samac, Mr. Tadic read out 16 names. And I can repeat some of them,
16 because it's a sort of new birthday; you remember those things. I don't
17 remember my birthday or celebrate my birthday any more but that, I do.
18 There was Mr. Nalic, Tihic, Salkic, Tihic, Zaimbegovic, and many, many
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. That list was read out by Mr. Tadic.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, what I was leading to was this: At the time that
23 that list was read out to you and you were loaded up into the truck, had
24 you had any say or input or participated in the decision of whether or not
25 you would be exchanged? Now, it may seem perfectly obvious to you, but I
1 want to know. Tell us.
2 A. Well, let me answer that. After all the suffering that one went
3 through, it would be -- I don't know which term to use, but it wouldn't --
4 it would not be fitting to ask somebody whether they wanted to or not. It
5 was the only way to save my head. There was no other solution for me but
6 to be exchanged.
7 However, on one occasion, actually that night when they beat us -
8 and I forgot to say this, so let me take advantage and let the Trial
9 Chamber know - when Mr. Todorovic beat me, he -- as I was lying down,
10 bending down to kiss his feet, he put his leg on my neck and said, "Don't
11 you dare come back from the exchange, from the delineation line and come
12 back." And I said, "Well, I never -- it would never enter into my head to
13 come back after that."
14 Q. Before you were arrested in April 1992, did you have any plans or
15 intention of leaving your home and the town in which you'd lived in all
16 your life?
17 A. Several months before, I bought the video games, I invested my
18 money, and for the -- those times, it was a lot of money. Maybe it's not
19 much money for here, but at the time it was a lot of money. And my
20 friends, the Serbs, said that there would be a war coming and that I
21 shouldn't invest, that I should wait and see, and I said, "I'm sure it
22 won't come to that." And never, under any normal circumstances, would I
23 have left my own town had there not been a war, because that's where all
24 my family is buried, all my forefathers, in the cemetery there. My son is
25 buried there. All my family is there. That's where I was born. And
1 quite certainly, quite certainly, I would never have left it of my own
2 free will.
3 Q. When you were taken in the bus and you finally arrived at
4 Dragalic, did you have anything given to you by any authority, a soldier,
5 a civilian, a bureaucrat, anyone, indicating the property that you had
6 left behind, the video -- the little video store and the kombi van and
7 your workshop and your tools and all that sort of stuff? Did you have
8 anything to prove that you were the owner, or to compensate you for that
10 A. [No interpretation]
11 MS. BAEN: We don't have a translation over here. I don't know
12 about you.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Neither did we get any.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: No.
15 Q. Mr. Salkic, I'll repeat the question.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us now? Because something went
17 wrong in all the interpretation booths.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
19 MR. DI FAZIO:
20 Q. Mr. Salkic, there was a bit of a problem with the interpretation.
21 I'll ask the question again. When you were handed over at Dragalic, when
22 you were exchanged, did you have anything from anyone at all proving or
23 attesting to your ownership of property that you'd left behind in Bosanski
24 Samac, things like your kombi van, your workshop, your wife's video store,
25 your apartment, things like that? Or, indeed, had you been given anything
1 that would enable you to receive compensation for the taking of that
3 A. No, no. No certificate, no document. I didn't get anything from
4 anyone. And I didn't hear of anyone else having gotten anything either.
5 Q. Were you aware of anyone else who was being exchanged who was
6 given such documentation or compensated?
7 A. No, no, I did not hear of any such thing.
8 Q. And the last topic that I'd like to just ask you about briefly,
9 Mr. Salkic, is this: You have described injuries that you received, the
10 hearing, hearing loss. Have you had that tested?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Are you ever going to get your hearing back to the levels it was
13 before you were attacked and assaulted?
14 A. Well, no. It is no longer possible, except through some kind of
15 expensive surgery, and I haven't got the money for that kind of thing.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. No further questions.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination?
18 MR. PANTELIC: Just one question, Your Honours. What is our
19 schedule for this afternoon? Do we have a break in half an hour?
20 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall have a break at 1630 and then resume at
21 1700 hours to 1830.
22 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Salkic, I am Pantelic, attorney at law, for
25 Mr. Blagoje Simic. If you're upset because of all of this, please tell
1 the Trial Chamber, and if you'd like a break, I'm sure that things could
2 be arranged.
3 A. I don't know how much time is left until we actually have the
4 break. I guess I won't mind. Could you just tell me what time it is and
5 how much time we have left?
6 Q. It is five past 4.00 now, and we'd be working until 4.30.
7 A. Thank you. I can manage that, and thank you for having asked me
9 Q. Mr. Salkic, you gave two statements to the Office of the
10 Prosecutor; is that correct?
11 A. Three.
12 Q. Yes, but according to my records, I have one statement from the
13 7th and 9th of February, 1995. Do you remember that statement?
14 A. Could you please speak up a bit? I really have trouble hearing
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness also
17 speak into the microphone, please.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher assist the witness, please, to come
19 closer to the microphone, and also increase the volume for the earphones.
20 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Can you hear me now?
22 A. Yes. Yes, I do. Please go ahead.
23 Q. Mr. Salkic, I have here before me a statement that you gave on the
24 7th and 9th of February. You gave it to the OTP. Do you remember that
1 A. Which year?
2 Q. 1995.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The second statement that I have in my records was given on the
5 10th of March, 1998. Do you remember that one? That's shorter than the
6 first one.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. But I haven't got the third statement. Can you help
9 me with that? When did you give this third statement?
10 A. Unfortunately, I don't know, so you can talk to your colleague
11 about that.
12 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [In English] Please, if my learned colleague can clarify this.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe we can have clarification.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't know what third statement Mr. Pantelic is
16 talking about. I know that we disclosed notes of --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: No. It's the witness who mentioned that he made
18 three statements.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry. My apologies. I don't know what statement
20 the witness is talking about. I know that we disclosed notes of certain
21 conversations we had with this witness to the Defence, and that related to
22 conversations we had with this witness in July of this year. But they
23 were notes, our notes, that we disclosed to the Defence. They weren't
24 reviewed or signed by the witness, and in that sense they're not classical
25 statement. But I don't know if that's of assistance to Mr. Pantelic or
1 not, but that's the situation that --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: -- as far as I know.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: So that's the situation with the Prosecution. All
6 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
7 Q. So that was sometime in July this year, as the Prosecutor had put
8 it. Actually, it wasn't a statement; it was probably just an interview or
9 conversation with you.
10 A. Yes. Yes. That's the way I considered it. I'm not really very
11 good at writing and things like that.
12 Q. I understand that. Thank you.
13 Mr. Salkic, please, it seems to me there is some kind of a
14 misunderstanding because so much time has gone by. As far as I can
15 remember, before this Trial Chamber you said that in Bijeljina there was a
16 certain judge, Goran Blagojevic, who said to you that it's not important
17 what kind of sentence you're going to get; it's important for you to go
18 for an exchange. Do you remember having said that?
19 A. Yes, yes, but he was not the one who was trying me. The judge,
20 that same man, was my friend before the war, during the war, and he's
21 still my friend.
22 Q. That is the point. We should clarify things here, because in your
23 statement you said that on one occasion Mirko Vasiljevic, president of the
24 court, walked in, and Predrag Drinic, a judge, is that correct, and then
25 they said that to you.
1 A. Don't you tell me what they said. You asked me what they said,
2 and I'll tell you, not what you say that I said that they said to me. I
3 don't agree with you on that.
4 Q. Please go ahead. Tell us.
5 A. In one room, that I described very nicely, I was talking to
6 Mr. Goran Blagojevic, and Goran Blagojevic said this to me. And in the
7 hallway I met these two gentlemen. I also said hello to them, we greeted
8 each other, and there wasn't much that was said, as far as I can remember.
9 Q. Yes. Could you please read this section to me from your
10 statement, the one that I have marked, and then give me a comment in terms
11 of that. Was that statement correct or this, what you have been saying
13 MR. PANTELIC: Statement of 7th and 9 February 1995, ERN number --
14 this is B/C/S version. ERN number is 00637760. Unfortunately, I don't
15 have a paging in this copy, but the ERN number is that.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please read slowly for the
18 A. Yes, I see this. We were standing in the hallway, and they were
19 walking through this hallway. Yes. So you'd think it's just words. Then
20 Mirko Vasiljevic, president of the court, and Predrag Drinic, a judge,
21 walked in. They greeted me nicely, because we knew each other from
22 before. They said to me the higher the sentence was, it would be better,
23 because I would be exchanged earlier. Yes, yes, but that's not the way it
24 had been put. Goran said that to me, and I saw these two men in court.
25 So I'll read this on, and then I'll make further comments:
1 "I told them about the beating and they issued orders to the
2 effect that this should not take place. Two days later Goran called me
3 and said to me that it would be best if they would return me to Batkovici
5 How come? How could Goran call me? I know there are going to be
6 questions in this regard.
7 "It would be best if they would return me to Batkovic again.
8 That's what happened. And I was travelling in a van with markings of the
9 new Yugoslav army, and I would see --"
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Salkic, can you read slowly, because the
11 interpreters have to interpret in the language we understand.
12 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know where they stopped with the
13 interpretation, but I'll proceed:
14 "This happened. I was travelling in a van with
15 markings -- insignia of the new Yugoslav army, the JA. I frequently saw
16 troops of a Serbian corps, Vlasenica and Valjevo Corps, in January and
17 February 1993. The corps had been stationed near Vlasenica for a while."
18 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So, Mr. Salkic, if I understood that statement correctly, it is
20 contrary to what you have just explained to us. So basically, you abide
21 by the version you just gave to the Trial Chamber, that this is not the
22 most fortunate of versions of what you just said.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please pause.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. Mr. Salkic, because you are speaking the
25 same language with counsel, you should remember that the interpreters have
1 to interpret what counsel has said before you can answer, so please do
2 pause. Can you start your answer again?
3 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Salkic, please tell us about this event slowly.
5 A. Should I describe it in detail?
6 Q. No, no, just in principal.
7 A. The guard brought us -- brought me into Mr. Blagojevic's office.
8 He had asked to see me. He knocked at the door, and he said, "Captain, I
9 have brought this man," and now, not to go into all the details, taking
10 off my handcuffs and things like that. I walked in. He said what he said
11 to me. Mr. Blagojevic said it. It was not Vasiljevic and the other one.
12 However, this is probably some kind of confusion. I don't know.
13 But I got out of the office, and then -- and then Mr. Mirko
14 Vasiljevic and Predrag Drinic walked into the hallway from the stairs. We
15 greeted each other, and of course we exchanged a few words, but they did
16 not say this to me. It was only Mr. Blagojevic who said it. And then I
17 was taken to the courtroom.
18 Q. Thank you. Can I please get this back? Thank you.
19 Precisely. So that was the objective, for us to clarify these two
20 versions that are different. You see, Mr. Salkic, when reading your
21 statement from 1995, I came to the conclusion that you did not go into
22 detail with regard to your transport from Bijeljina to Samac. You spoke
23 about this in a bit more detail before this Trial Chamber. So please,
24 could you just give answers to a few more questions so that we could
25 clarify this particular matter as well.
1 When you arrived on that bus from Bijeljina via Loncari to
2 Samac - I'm talking about the 13th of May - can you tell us: When you got
3 into Samac, where did you exactly stop with this bus? Where did they
4 drive you to with that bus?
5 A. We stopped in front of the hall of the secondary school, right in
6 front of it, and then we got off.
7 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a few names, a few persons, actually,
8 who were with you at the time. Can you tell me whether Mr. Izet
9 Izetbegovic was with you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was Mr. Muhamed with you, and his brother, Hasan Bicic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. On the bus, was there somebody else from Samac whom you knew from
15 A. Well, all of us, except for those who were added to our group.
16 Q. But please give me a few names.
17 A. Well, I can give you names. [redacted]; Bicic, Muhamed;
18 Bicic, Muhamed; Bikic, Ames; Tabakovic, Sulejman; [redacted].
19 And now give me time and I will write the names of all 60-odd people for
20 you, but just give me enough time to do that.
21 Q. This is quite sufficient. Thank you.
22 While looking through your statement from 1995, not in a single
23 place did I find the event that you described when Stevan Todorovic, as
24 you said, when Blagoje Simic came to the gym. Did you not remember it at
25 the time, or was there some other reason why you didn't say this in 1995?
1 A. Perhaps it wasn't necessary for me to remember it. However, when
2 you see that these details are being requested, then I did remember.
3 Q. You mean requested by the Office of the Prosecutor to explain
5 A. Ah, don't be so provocative. Please don't.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Salkic, counsel is asking questions because he
7 has a duty to do so. He is defending his client, Mr. Blagoje Simic. And
8 the Trial Chamber has allowed him to cross-examine you. The Trial Chamber
9 is also searching for the truth, so on the other hand, counsel is also
10 asking for these details on behalf of the Trial Chamber, so please be
11 polite to counsel.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would also ask him
13 at the same time not to answer these questions -- I mean not to put
14 questions like this to me, like, "You did say this or you did do this,
15 didn't you?" I imagine he should just put a question to me, rather than
16 giving the answer as well.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. He -- at the moment, he has the statements
18 which were recorded by the Prosecution. The statements were from you.
19 Now, he is entitled put the contents of the statements to you. Now, if
20 what is your statement is not correct, it's not because Mr. Pantelic is
21 quoting the wrong thing. So you simply explain why there are differences
22 between the evidence you've given in court and the contents of your
23 statement which you gave to the Prosecution.
24 Perhaps it would help if counsel -- if when you want to quote what
25 is in the statement you specifically say, "In this paragraph, in this line
1 of your statement," and then counsel reads that. Then it will be clearer,
2 I think, to the witness.
3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Madam President. That is the situation. In
4 this statement, as I said, which is around 11 pages, I didn't find any
5 mention, any reference to name of my client.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So you asked --
7 MR. PANTELIC: I don't know how to ask negative questions, so I
8 put him this question. I reviewed this statement. There is no mention of
9 my client. And now he said, "Okay, it wasn't mentioned but someone asked
10 me." And I simply want to know who asks him and when.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think I explained to the witness. I'm sure
12 from now on we will have no problems.
13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you.
14 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Salkic, since you did not mention
15 Mr. Blagoje Simic at all in your statement from 1995, and you probably
16 talked to the Prosecutor in preparation of this trial, and the Prosecutor
17 probably put some questions to you, did he then ask you about this detail
18 concerning the presence of Mr. Blagoje Simic in this gym?
19 A. He did not ask me about this detail. I told him about that
21 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
22 Mr. Usher, please, your assistance.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Salkic in your statement from the 10th of
24 March, 1998 --
25 MR. PANTELIC: The B/C/S version of the statement of March 10,
1 1998, ER number is 00637103, page number 3, paragraph 6. Paragraph 6.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Salkic, there is a sentence here in your
3 statement from 1998. Please read it. Just read it out to me, please.
4 I've marked it with the magic marker. Just the sentence that I marked
6 A. Yes, yes. I'll read it to you with pleasure.
7 Q. Please just read it.
8 A. "During the war, I did not see Blagoje Simic."
9 Q. Thank you. That's all I wanted. Thank you.
10 A. However, that was when I gave my first statement and --
11 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you about that.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a number for that statement?
13 Identification only?
14 MR. PANTELIC: Actually, Madam President, I don't know if you want
15 to put all these statements, but this is the extract.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: You are through? Okay.
17 MR. PANTELIC: There is no -- I think my learned friend will not
19 JUDGE MUMBA: It's all right.
20 MR. PANTELIC: It's a part of the statement, and it's in
21 transcript now, so ...
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Salkic, please, could you briefly sketch out
23 the gym for me, with the entrance, the entrance hall as well. If you
24 would please be so kind as to do that. We are talking about this
25 particular event now, so I just need a very, very basic sketch, just the
1 entrance and the gym, please.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Which one --
3 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct, Madam President, gym of secondary
5 Q. If maybe you have a magic marker which is a little bit better.
6 The other one, I think. No, no, the black one. That one is better.
7 A. [Witness complies]
8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Salkic, please, before you put it -- or actually,
9 if it's easier for you, perhaps you can mark it there directly. This
10 arrow, that is the entrance into the school, isn't it?
11 A. That is the entrance into the school. This is the gym, this.
12 This is the gym, "s-a-l-a."
13 Q. Fine. Thank you. And the entrance into the gym is this part,
14 isn't it? Could you just mark it with a small arrow?
15 A. This is the entrance. I'll mark it. I'll mark the door.
16 Q. Could you please mark in this gym, with little crosses, your own
17 position, where you were.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. And could you please put the letter "A" there.
20 A. [Marks]
21 MR. PANTELIC: So this is the reference to the position of the
22 witness with the letter "A."
23 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please now put another "X" in the place
24 where Hasan Bicic was, or if you know someone else who was with you.
25 A. I can tell you how people were standing, but you're asking me for
1 a lot now.
2 Q. Right. How they were standing.
3 A. Yes, yes. Through the gym, this way. Now, not to give them all
4 numbers. We were all around there.
5 Q. Very well. So we are stating that practically all the detainees
6 were lined up round the walls?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. And tell me now, since Stiv Todorovic appeared at the
9 door, could you please mark Stiv Todorovic with an "X" as well.
10 A. He was here.
11 Q. There?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Would you mark him with a number "1."
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And where was Blagoje Simic standing?
16 A. Here at that door, too, a bit further away. First Stiv walked in,
17 looked through the gym. Since the door is a bit narrower than the usual
18 double door but it is still wider than a usual door, Stiv withdrew there
19 and Blagoje remained there with his body at the door.
20 Q. Could you please mark Blagoje with number"2."
21 A. [Marks]
22 MR. PANTELIC: And I think, Your Honours, it's time for a break.
23 Probably I'm finished but several questions, I would have to say.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Could we have a number for this sketch, please?
25 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, can we have a number? The title can be,
1 "The sketch of Mr. Ibrahim Salkic of the secondary school gym."
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Just wait for the number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be D19/1 ter.
4 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Mr. Salkic.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall adjourn now and resume our proceedings at
6 1700 hours.
7 --- Recess taken at 4.32 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 5.02 p.m.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination continues. Mr. Pantelic.
10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Madam President. Just a couple of questions
11 and I'm done with my cross-examination.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Salkic, you mentioned the fact that there
13 were several other people with these two, Blagoje and Stivo; is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Does the name Srecko Radovanovic ring a bell?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And how about the nickname Debeli?
19 A. Well, we called Osman Semso, in Samac, Debeli, but I don't know
20 anybody else nicknamed Debeli, or "fat," in translation.
21 Q. You didn't know any of the members of the paramilitary units or
22 policemen whose nickname was Debeli?
23 A. No.
24 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Salkic.
25 [In English] I've finished my cross-examination. Thank you, Your
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The next counsel. Mr. Zecevic.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Zecevic:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Salkic.
5 A. Good afternoon to you too. Well, it's already evening, but
7 Q. Mr. Salkic, I'm going to ask you a few questions, and I should
8 like to ask you, if possible, to answer with "yes" or "no" or "I don't
10 A. I understand, yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Salkic, you were born in Bosanski Samac; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And your father's name was Meho; is that right?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. You served the army -- did your military service in the navy
17 between 1973 to 1975, is that right, 21st of March, 1975, in fact?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You were trained in anti-sabotage activities in the army; is that
21 A. No. I can give you the exact branch. It was the mine and
22 anti-mine unit, and it meant laying mines on the seabed and to dismantle
23 them afterwards on ships.
24 Q. Thank you. So this mine and anti-mine training was your
1 A. Yes, that's right, but in the navy, to do with ships.
2 Q. I see. So mine and anti-mine training for ships.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You testified before this Tribunal, Mr. Salkic, and said that as a
5 hunter, you possessed two hunting rifles, I believe. One was a carbine;
6 is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you also said that you procured a Kalashnikov.
9 A. You mean hunting weapons?
10 Q. No, but that you procured a Kalashnikov; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Your friends Hasan and Muhamed also procured a Kalashnikov each;
13 is that right?
14 A. Well, let them tell you that.
15 Q. I'm asking you whether you know about that.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Salkic, on page -- on a page of the
18 transcript of the 1st of November, the number of the page is 3208 and
19 3209, line 25 and the second and third line, you confirmed, asked by the
20 Prosecutor, that you procured the weapons illegally; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, just the Kalashnikov, but I had the licences for my hunting
22 rifles. That was in order.
23 Q. I see. Thank you. But I was thinking of the Kalashnikov. You
24 have been a hunter for many years?
25 A. Yes, and I'm still a hunter today.
1 Q. As a seasoned hunter, I'm sure you know about the provisions
2 relating to the possession of firearms that were in force in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time?
4 A. Yes, I said that. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. I'm sure you also know that on the basis of those
6 rules and regulations, it was -- you were not allowed to possess military
7 weapons such as Kalashnikovs. You know that, don't you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You are also aware of the fact that the law provided that the
10 possession and harbouring of, and carrying of, illegal firearms, and
11 especially automatic weapons, was a crime?
12 A. At that time, that law was no longer in force. It didn't exist
13 because Yugoslavia didn't exist any more.
14 Q. I'm asking you about the laws that were in force in
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina before April 1992.
16 A. Well, I saw that others had these zolja type of weapons from the
17 4th Detachment, and Kalashnikovs. Why shouldn't I buy some? If they were
18 allowed to, why shouldn't I be permitted to do the same?
19 Q. I should just like you to answer my question. I understand you
20 completely, but please limit yourself to my questions and answering them,
21 to facilitate the work of the Trial Chamber and all of us present in the
22 courtroom. Thank you. So if I understood you correctly, you were aware
23 of that, you did know the law?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mr. Salkic, you testified here before this Trial Chamber and said
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that you were not a member of any form of armed formation of the SDA
2 before April 1992; is that correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [In English] Could the usher please help me with
5 something? Could these documents be marked for identification, please?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit, Defence Exhibit D8/2 ter ID and D8/2 ID.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you. Yes, the original to Mr. Salkic, and the
8 one on the ELMO.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Salkic can you see the document in front of
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Would you read out, please, the left-hand corner, what it says
13 there? Where it says number "2," what does it say after that?
14 A. "Anti-sabotage section."
15 Q. And underneath that?
16 A. "KD," which is probably "Commander," Husein Arapovic, aka Arap,
17 and the telephone number.
18 Q. Do you know Mr. Husein Arapovic, nicknamed Arap?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Sir, tell me -- no, I withdraw that question.
21 Mr. Husein Arapovic, was he a member of the SDA?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Would you please read out what it says under number "7."
24 A. Yes. My name is there, comes to be there, but I don't know how.
25 Ibrahim Salkic, aka "Ibala." I'm not Ibala. I'm Ibela, with an "E."
1 Q. Ibela is your nickname, is it?
2 A. Yes, Ibela, and not Ibala. I-b-e-l-a and not I-b-a-l-a.
3 Q. So you're saying that it's Ibela?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So under that number, that is your name next to the number, is it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Tell me, please, the five numbers that follow, 63238 --
8 A. That's my former telephone number.
9 Q. -- that was your telephone number in April 1992; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have you ever seen this document before?
12 A. No. No, I tell a lie. Yes, I did see it in the SUP, in Bosanski
13 Samac, when the war began.
14 Q. You mean when you gave your statements?
15 A. Yes, but not before that. I didn't see it before that.
16 Q. You were shown the document on that occasion?
17 A. Yes, that was the first time I saw it in my life.
18 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Salkic, who else from this list that you have
19 before you was incarcerated with you, first in the Territorial Defence
20 building and then in the primary school building? Give us just the
21 numbers -- that is to say, the number first and then the name, like you
22 see it on the list.
23 A. Well, let me see: Number 3, Hakija Srna -- no, not Hakija, no,
24 not Hakija. Osman Jasarevic was there, number 5. Seljakovic was brought
25 in but was released when Simo -- ah, Hajrudin. I'm mixing up their
1 names. One of them was returned to the 4th Detachment, as his surname was
2 Seljakovic. Now, whether it was Hajrudin or not, I'm not sure. I also
3 know Enver Ibralic. No, the rest weren't. None of the others were.
4 Q. My question was --
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, remember to pause.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. I'm sorry, Your Honours.
7 Q. [Interpretation] The question was: Which of these people were
8 incarcerated together with you in the TO and the primary school, and not
9 whether you know them.
10 A. Jasarevic, Osman, nicknamed Roma.
11 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, Mr. Salkic: You know Mr. Sulejman
12 Tihic, do you not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. He was the president of SDA of Bosanski Samac at that time, was he
16 A. I think he was, yes.
17 Q. Do you know Fuad Jasenica?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. He was a member of the SDA, wasn't he?
20 A. I really don't know.
21 Q. Do you know Izet Izetbegovic, the founder of the SDA party in
22 Bosanski Samac?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What about Alija Fitozovic? You know him too, don't you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In the course of your testimony, in the transcript of the 31st of
2 October, page 3186, line 4 and 5, asked by my learned colleague the
3 Prosecutor whether you were ever a member of any political party, you
4 stated the following:
5 "No, no, until about one year prior to the war, when I joined the
6 SDA political party, and I stepped down from the party six months later."
7 Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, give or take a month.
9 Q. But that's the statement you made here, is it not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. That could mean that sometime at the end of 1991 you ceased to be
12 an SDA member.
13 A. Yes, thereabouts.
14 Q. On that same LiveNote, of that same page, line 22, 24, asked by
15 the Prosecutor once again whether you had taken part in any party
16 activities, such as meetings and the collection of funds or similar
17 activities, your answer was in the negative.
18 A. Yes, and that is my same answer.
19 Q. So by that you mean no?
20 A. Yes, I mean no.
21 Q. Mr. Salkic, that means, if I understood you correctly, that while
22 you were a member of the SDA party, you did not procure any equipment for
23 the party, did you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. If you didn't procure anything while you were an SDA member, I
1 assume that you didn't procure anything like that when you ceased to be a
3 A. That's right. I never did.
4 Q. Is it not true, Mr. Salkic, that in April 1992 - or more exactly,
5 the 14th of April, to be specific - for the needs of the SDA of Bosanski
6 Samac, you brought in something from Croatia?
7 A. No. I never brought anything for the SDA.
8 Q. Let me remind you. I am thinking of the case when, together with
9 Fuad Jasenica, you brought in weapons which were subsequently distributed
10 in the TO building.
11 A. I never brought in any weapons to Samac except my rifle, the one
12 that I purchased outside Samac.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: May I have the usher's assistance, please.
14 Can they be marked for identification, please?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document D9 --
16 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document D9/2 ter ID and document D9/2 ID.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry. I do apologise. I was concerned that
21 the document was being tendered into evidence and not merely marked for
22 identification, but that's my mistake. I see that it is being marked for
23 identification. I'm sorry for the interruption.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Salkic, would you please read the document out, slowly, from
1 the beginning, please, the heading and everything else.
2 A. The SDA party, the Party of Democratic Action, the Municipal Board,
3 Bosanski Samac.
4 Q. Read it slowly, please.
5 A. I think you'll read it out better than me, and I'll just say what
6 the certificate is about. Read it instead of me. I don't see very well
7 and I think you'll do a better job of it, and then I can say yes or no or
8 to whatever you ask me.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: If the Court would allow me, I would like to read
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I shall read it, then.
13 The SDA, Party of Democratic Action, Municipal Board, Bosanski
14 Samac, number -- blank. Date, the 14th of April, 1992.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's in English.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Yes. Have a look at the document in front of you, and you can say
18 if what I'm reading out is what is written there. Tell me if I read
19 something out wrongly. Bring my attention to that straight away, please:
20 "Certificate for Jasenica, Fuad, son of Husein; and Salkic,
21 Ibrahim, son of Meho, both from Bosanski Samac. This is to certify that
22 the above named are authorised to communicate with relevant organs in the
23 Republic of Croatia in the name of this board and for the purposes of
24 acquiring or receipt of equipment against a receipt for the needs of the
25 residents of Bosanski Samac. The above named are authorised to take over
1 the agreed equipment." SDA, as a signature, the Municipal Board, and
2 Bosanski Samac.
3 Q. Tell me, please: Have I read this document out correctly?
4 A. Yes. It's a -- yes.
5 Q. Have you ever seen this document before?
6 A. This one? No. This is the first time that I'm looking at it, the
7 first time.
8 Q. I see. The first time. Thank you. Tell me, please: Do you know
9 that Mr. Sulejman Tihic wrote a book called "Recollections" with respect
10 to the events in Bosanski Samac?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You don't know that he wrote a book like that?
13 A. No, I don't.
14 Q. You haven't read the book?
15 A. No, I haven't.
16 Q. Well, you see, Mr. Salkic, in that book Mr. Tihic explicitly says
17 that --
18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Counsel. I could be wrong, but it's
19 my recollection when Mr. Sulejman Tihic was on the stand for
20 examination-in-chief and wanted to introduce his so-called memories or
21 memoirs, that there was an objection and he wasn't allowed to introduce
22 them. As I say, I could be wrong, but I raise it.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: You are right.
24 Your Honour, but it wasn't me who objected.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: No. It was the whole of the Defence team, from
1 what I can recall. But --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm surprised.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: But despite that, there's also another matter that
4 I think precludes the question. I can see where it was going, and was
5 going to ask this man to comment on something that Sulejman Tihic wrote.
6 And unless he's disgusted or has read the book or is aware and has aired
7 his views, together with that of Mr. Tihic, you can't really expect him to
8 answer anything about the book, given that the author is Mr. Tihic
9 particularly, as he'll be here next. So on that basis also, I would
10 object to the question.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: I just want to be clear in my mind: Is this the
13 memoirs, or is this a book, different from the memoirs?
14 MR. ZECEVIC: It is the book named "Memoirs," by Sulejman Tihic,
16 JUDGE MUMBA: I see.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: With due respect, Your Honours, I believe I'm
18 entitled to ask the witness about the fact of his opinion about the
19 certain fact which I am going to present to him or put to him.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: He can say, "No, it's not true," and I will be more
22 than happy to ask Sulejman Tihic about that, of course.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: That is a book written by Mr. Tihic.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Sulejman Tihic. That is right.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So how can he answer yes or no on the contents
1 of the --
2 MR. ZECEVIC: He can say whether the facts which Mr. Sulejman
3 Tihic is saying in his book are right or wrong.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: He doesn't know what research Mr. Tihic made.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: He doesn't know what research Mr. Tihic made.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: No, but I'm going to read the facts about what
8 Mr. Tihic was referring to, and he can say whether that is true or not,
9 simple as that.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. di Fazio.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: That can be done. There's no question that
12 Mr. Zecevic can achieve his objective. But by putting it in the mouth of
13 Mr. Tihic before he asks the question is what makes it objectionable. If
14 Mr. Tihic says that the sun rises in the north and sets in the south,
15 Mr. Zecevic can ask the witness if that's, in fact, correct.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: According to the sun rising in Bosanski Samac.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: So he can put what Mr. Tihic -- what he may know or
18 not know about what's in Mr. Tihic's book to the witness, but he mustn't
19 put it on the basis of "This is what Tihic says. What do you say?"
20 Because it's unfair.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, instead of putting them as if they are facts --
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: -- put the text.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Put the text or put the idea or put the fact or put
25 the proposition to the witness, simple. And if that happens, then I've
1 got no problem. And then --
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I have a text before me. I can read
3 it, and then the witness can give his opinion on that.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Not his opinion. He can only answer --
5 MR. ZECEVIC: His position.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: -- whether he agrees or disagrees.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Whether it is right or not.
8 Q. [Interpretation] "The SDA in Bosanski Samac received from Croatia,
9 I think from Slavonski Brod, another shipment of weapons, quantity of
10 weapons, about 50 automatic rifles, two mortars, several zoljas, hand-held
11 rocket launchers and some ammunition. These weapons were brought by Fuad
12 Jasenica and Ibrahim Salkic, and they obtained them on the basis of a
13 receipt which I gave to them on behalf of the SDA. I did not believe that
14 they would get the weapons, but they did bring them in. So I sent it to
15 the TO staff, which was established two days before that. The bulk of the
16 weapons were distributed immediately in the TO headquarters, mostly to
17 Muslims and also a few weapons to Croats."
18 If I understood you correctly, Mr. Salkic, what is written in this
19 book is not correct. Is that what you're saying?
20 A. Yes, that is quite certain. It is not correct. That is his -- he
21 wrote that, and I am telling you the truth. I never saw this receipt or
22 certificate, ever.
23 Q. I am asking you about the facts set out here.
24 A. Perhaps those weapons were brought in, but I was not present nor
25 did I have anything to do with it. But I can't say that it didn't
1 actually take place. What I'm saying is that I did not take part in it.
2 I received no certificate or receipt. I did not bring in any weapons, nor
3 do I know whether any weapons were in fact brought in.
4 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, Mr. Salkic: You said that you were
5 arrested on the 18th of April; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that you were then put into the TO building on the 19th of
8 April, which is to say, the following day?
9 A. Yes. I would say that.
10 Q. And you were incarcerated there until the 26th of April, when you
11 were transferred to Brcko; is that right? I didn't hear the answer.
12 A. The answer was yes.
13 Q. Tell me, please, in those seven days that you spent in the
14 Territorial Defence building, with you were the Bicic brothers, Dragan
15 Lukac, Izet Izetbegovic, and several other people; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You mentioned that you were taken a few times to have lunch at the
18 Utva factory, right?
19 A. Yes, that's right. Breakfast or lunch.
20 Q. A meal?
21 A. Yes, twice, in the morning and in the afternoon. So there were
22 not three meals, there were two, and we went for the first two or three
24 Q. You testified here that on one occasion when you were in Utva, you
25 saw Milan Simic; isn't that right?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. In the transcript dated November 1st, you said, on page 3288,
3 lines 17 through 19, that you had the feeling that he was embarrassed
4 because all of you were people that he knew well. Is that the way you put
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You meant you and the Bicic brothers; right?
8 A. Yes, all of those who were present, because he knew quite a few of
9 the people there. Samac is a small town.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
11 come closer to the microphone.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Tell me, Mr. Salkic, did you make any comments with regard to this
14 with the other people who were standing in the line with you?
15 A. Well, you couldn't really talk very much, so I doubt that there
16 were many comments there. You'd just eat what there was, keep your head
17 down, and then back.
18 Q. However, they could certainly have seen him, too, if you managed
19 to see him?
20 A. Well, at the first moment, when a few of us walked in, the first
21 ones, the gentleman was standing there. Since I worked in that company
22 for a few years, I know that very well. If necessary, I'm going to
23 describe that moment.
24 Q. No. There is no need for that. I'm just asking whether others
25 could see him as well.
1 A. Some of them, yes, some who…
2 Q. Thank you. You were in Brcko from the 27th of April until the 1st
3 of May; isn't that right?
4 A. Yes, that's right, something around there.
5 Q. You also testified that in Brcko you were detained in two rooms?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. With you in the same room were the Bicic brothers, who were also
8 detained, if you remember?
9 A. I can remember the people who were with me.
10 Q. Well, tell us, then.
11 A. Well, Dragan Lukac, Mersad Gibic, Dragan Delic, then a little guy
12 called Legija. There were about 30 of us, 35 at the maximum. I can't
13 remember at this moment.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours.
16 Q. [Interpretation] You said on November 1st, page 3300, line 19,
17 that you saw Simic in Brcko as he was standing in the vicinity of the
18 building where you were detained; is that right?
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. In the same transcript, a page later, line 8, you said that
21 whenever you would see someone, it would give rise to your hopes that you
22 would go home; is that right?
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. On the same page, Mr. Salkic, line 25, you stated that what you
25 saw was very brief, only a few minutes, or rather, a minute and a half and
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that then they left?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You saw Milan Simic, you said, together with Topcagic and
7 A. Djuheric, yes.
8 Q. Did you share that with someone in your room?
9 A. All of us saw it.
10 Q. All of you who were detained in that room?
11 A. In that room and in the room next to it.
12 Q. Next to it?
13 A. Well, everyone. Everybody was looking forward to good news that
14 we were going home, because Brcko was already a free town, free, and then
15 your hopes go high. You hope that you'll be released.
16 Q. Are you sure that the others saw him too?
17 A. I cannot assert anything on behalf of anyone else, but the five or
18 six of us or whatever who were at the windows could see this quite
19 clearly. Some could not get up due to the injuries that they had, and
20 they could not see.
21 Q. Yes. Thank you. Tell me, in your statement of the 7th and 9th of
22 November in 1995 that you gave to the OTP, you did not mention that you
23 saw Milan Simic in Utva and in Brcko; is that correct?
24 A. Well, yes, I thought that that was unimportant, that what was
25 important was only what would come in the following description. However,
1 in the additional explanation, I realised that that had to be mentioned
3 Q. Yes. I'll get to that too. You are aware of the fact that Milan
4 Simic voluntarily surrendered to the Tribunal in February 1998; right?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. You gave your statement to the investigators of the OTP
7 immediately after this event, that is to say, on the 10th of March, 1998;
8 isn't that right?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [In English] If the Court pleases, I can mark this
11 for identification purposes.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: What is it?
13 MR. ZECEVIC: This is a statement of this same witness given to
14 the OTP back in 1998 on the 10th of March, 1998.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: 1998, yes. We can have it marked for
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document D10/2 ter ID.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: We have the English translation as well, isn't it?
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, we have. It's on the ELMO, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Could we have the number?
21 THE REGISTRAR: The English translation will be D10/2 ID.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Salkic, take a look. Is this your statement?
24 A. Yes, it is, but I can see straight away that there is a mistake,
25 because I and Mr. Simic never worked together.
1 Q. I'm going to put a question to you, sir.
2 A. I'm sorry.
3 Q. Tell me, Mr. Salkic, this is your statement, isn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Take a look at it.
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. You gave this statement voluntarily of your own free will, without
8 any coercion involved; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Would you please be so kind as to turn to page 3 of the statement,
11 that is, the next page.
12 A. Only there is one thing that I just cannot understand. I just
13 have to ask you about this. Just as I thought that this is a mistake,
14 then this is also a mistake too. What does "Rdovno" mean, R-d-o-v-n-o?
15 What does that mean, Bosnia and Serbia and Croatia? What does that mean?
16 Q. It must be a typo.
17 A. Well, then, there was another mistake, too, concerning Simic.
18 What can I say?
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, the Prosecution is following. If there are
20 any problems, the Prosecution will deal with that. Now, for the time
21 being, counsel is simply cross-examining. So you simply do as he says.
22 You turn to the page, to the paragraph, and he'll be asking you
23 questions. So you simply answer the questions as he asks them.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Could you please be so kind as to look at the next page and to
1 read these two sentences out, the ones that are highlighted in the second
2 paragraph, please. The second paragraph, page number 3. See, it's on the
3 bottom of the page, page number 3. Would you please be so kind as to read
5 A. "I also saw Milan Simic on one occasion in Brcko. He came
6 together with Simo Zaric but was waiting outside while Zaric was
7 questioning us."
8 Q. Thank you. Sir, Mr. Salkic, that is your statement, that is what
9 you stated then, if you'll remember?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Then you asserted that he came with Mr. Zaric, and you did not
12 mention Fadil Topcagic and Djuheric; right?
13 A. Yes. When my -- what should I call him? Rather, the Prosecutor,
14 when he asked me to describe this event in greater detail, then I did so,
15 and then I remembered that several people were present there, and that is
16 what I told the Court.
17 Q. Tell me something else: You said then that Mr. Simic was waiting
18 for Zaric, and in your statement -- or rather, while you were testifying
19 last Thursday, you said that it was only between a minute and a half and
20 two; is that right?
21 A. Well, please allow me to speak a bit. I cannot just say "correct"
22 or "incorrect." I have to explain this sentence, if you'll allow me to do
24 Q. Of course I'll allow you to do that, but just please answer my
25 question. Of course I'm going to allow you to explain.
1 A. I saw Mr. Simic with Zaric, but Zaric walked into the building and
2 the three gentlemen remained outside. And they were there very briefly,
3 as I said, and they left.
4 Q. That's not what it says in that statement dated February
5 1998 -- March 1998, rather.
6 A. It's not explained in detail like now.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, usher.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Since this is one of the stipulations we made
10 with the Prosecution, you know that Mr. Simic was appointed only on the
11 30th of May, 1992 to be head of the Executive Council. Don't you know
13 A. I didn't know that. I learned about that only later.
14 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Salkic: You are the best friend of
15 Muhamed and Hasan Bicic; isn't that right?
16 A. They are my best friends, and I'm probably their best friend too.
17 Q. You came to their pizzeria; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That's where you saw Milan Simic from time to time; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In the transcript dated the 31st of October, page 3189, line 15
22 and further on, you said:
23 "From time to time we would meet at the cafe, here and there. It
24 could be said that we were on good terms. Because Samac is a small town,
25 everybody knew everybody. It's not a big city. We socialised, and
1 sometimes when I would need something, he would do me a favour."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that what you stated, exactly?
4 A. Exactly.
5 Q. Further on, on page 3190, line 19, you said -- in response to a
6 question related to the relationship between Hasan and Muhamed Bicic and
7 Milan Simic, you answered the following to the Prosecutor:
8 "Yes. They would often meet at the pizzeria that the Bicics had.
9 They met and talked. Actually, I think that they were on much better
10 terms with him than me."
11 Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You never worked together with Milan Simic?
14 A. No. No. That's some kind of a mistake.
15 Q. You were not a close, intimate friend of his?
16 A. Well, I don't know how people see this, but whenever we would see
17 each other, we would say hello to each other, chat a bit, have a drink.
18 So I don't know to what extent you think that this should be. I mean, for
19 me that was enough. This was friends.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please pause between putting the
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Zecevic --
23 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Remember to pause. I know you get --
25 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: You get taken away.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I was carried out.
3 Q. [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I have to repeat the question. I'm
4 sorry, Mr. Salkic. When I say "close, intimate friends," I mean did you
5 confide in each other, did you go to see him at home?
6 A. No.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Mr. Usher, may I please have the statement again,
8 the previous one of March 10, 1998, the second page, and put the English
9 on the ELMO, please.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, Mr. Salkic: Over there on page 1, could
11 you please read this.
12 A. Yes. "Milan Simic and I before the war were close friends. We
13 worked together ..." This is a mistake. We did not work together. We
14 socialised, "... for periods and met on a regular basis." That's okay.
15 Why don't you go on.
16 Q. In that statement, it says that you were intimate friends and that
17 you worked together.
18 A. That we worked together, no. That's some kind of a mistake, just
19 like over here, see. But we did not work together, not ever.
20 Q. So that's not what you said to the investigators of the OTP?
21 A. Yes. It's a mistake, maybe a typographical error or whatever,
22 like over here, see.
23 Q. Was this statement read out to you?
24 A. Yes, but I didn't really pay attention to every little word, on
25 what terms I was with Milan, you know. For me, this was a good
1 relationship, that we would meet, say hello to each other, chat, have a
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Now let us deal with what happened at the primary
6 school. Mr. Salkic, in the transcript dated the 2nd of November, page 48,
7 line 12 of the unofficial transcript - because we still haven't got the
8 official transcript - you said that this event took place in mid-June,
9 sometime around 10.00 in the evening, that it was dark but there was
10 moonlight, so you could discern things; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That's what you said?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Salkic: At that time in Samac there wasn't
15 any electricity; right?
16 A. There wasn't.
17 Q. Not at all?
18 A. Well, we didn't have any over there. I don't know.
19 Q. Thank you. Further on in the transcript, on the same day, on
20 page 33, line 1 and further on, you said -- in response to the
21 Prosecutor's question whether anybody could go into the gym at any time,
22 you answered the following:
23 "Anyone. Serbs, civilians came, even some women came to beat us,
24 soldiers, policemen. Whenever anyone wanted to come in, the door would
25 simply open and they would walk in and beat us."
1 Is that what you stated?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Salkic: These people who walked in like
4 that to beat you, they didn't have uniforms or did they come on some kind
5 of official business; they simply felt like beating someone and they would
6 walk in?
7 A. Precisely, just the way you put it.
8 Q. I assume that it is your assumption that the guards allowed that;
9 isn't that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. While giving your -- while testifying, in response to the
12 Prosecutor's questions related to one of the photographs --
13 [In English] F59, please, the photograph by the Prosecutor. I
14 don't know which is the evidence number, but it's P -- F --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: P14A.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: F59 I believe it's --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: P14A.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: P14A. I'm sorry. Thank you.
19 [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. Salkic.
20 [In English] If you can put it on the ELMO. That's the one, yes.
21 Show it to the witness, please.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember this photograph?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Tell me, Mr. Salkic: When the Prosecutor showed you this
25 photograph, you said that you were sitting in the right-hand corner,
1 viewed from the entrance into the gym itself. Is that right?
2 A. I can show this to you.
3 Q. Yes, please go ahead.
4 A. It's here. It's this small part that's missing. If we were to
5 extend it a bit on this side, it would be here.
6 Q. It is the right-hand corner?
7 A. When you enter.
8 Q. When you enter the gym. The gym did not look this way then;
10 A. Well, no. There were parts of that Swedish ladder over there, and
11 there were some -- there are some things there now than what is here.
12 Q. At any rate, it was in better condition than this dilapidated room
13 that you can see now?
14 A. Well, no. The difference is not considerable. It's only the
15 Swedish ladder that's missing.
16 Q. I see. Thank you.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... the usher to
18 show to the witness P30/1 ter.
19 [Interpretation] I'm going to show you another diagram that the
20 Prosecutor showed you.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: You can put it on the ELMO, please, the one which
22 the witness did draw something on. Yes.
23 Q. [Interpretation] That is the drawing that the Prosecutor showed
24 you; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you -- would you show me in this drawing in which part of the
2 gym you were sitting, if that's not a problem.
3 A. Yes. It's around here.
4 Q. Could you please take a magic marker --
5 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. Can we do this on this copy, or ...?
6 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got no objection, as long as it's clearly
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. If we can use a different colour.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Different colour and a different -- and perhaps
10 lettering or something like that instead of numbering, something to make
11 it distinct and clear.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Distinct, yes.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Numbers, okay. Or would you agree that we put the
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Anything, as long as it's distinct and clear.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe you can put the witness' initials there.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Sure. I've got no problem with that.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Please be so kind as to put your initials at the
21 place where, in your opinion, you were, roughly.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salkic. Tell me, please, if you remember: Who was
24 sitting next to you, on one side and on the other side?
25 A. There were the two Bicic brothers.
1 Q. Just tell me who was sitting next to you, right next to you.
2 A. The two Bicic brothers were by me. I think that on one side was
3 Muhamed and on the other side -- well, I don't know whether he was here or
4 there now.
5 Q. Well, I'm just asking you if you remember.
6 A. Well, at any rate, the Bicics were right there by me, and also
7 there was Srna. I think his first name was Safet. He was there by me.
8 Q. Do you perhaps remember Silvestar Antunovic?
9 A. Well, Silvestar was a bit further away, and he lay there immobile,
10 and now -- while he was there, but now whether he was there on that
11 particular moment, I can't confirm that. He was taken to Belgrade. I
12 don't know exactly which date.
13 Q. I'm just asking you about the position.
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. For the transcript, you know, can you give us a better
16 explanation? If Muhamed and Hasan are on your left and right, where was
17 Silvestar Antunovic in relation to Muhamed?
18 A. Silvestar was on our right-hand side as we were standing or lying
20 Q. The first one next to Muhamed?
21 A. Probably. I can't remember that exactly.
22 Q. Thank you. Tell me, if you remember: Who was sitting next to the
23 door or right behind the door?
24 A. At first it was Omer Nalic right by the door, on the Swedish
25 block, and then he left, and then there was Dragan Delic.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm not going to bother you any more.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, Mr. Salkic: In the transcript dated the
4 2nd of November, page 49, line 23 and 24, you said: "Many of us recognised
5 his voice," and you were referring to Milan Simic; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If I understand you correctly, you did not clearly see him and
8 recognise him. It was the voice.
9 A. This was at the entrance into the gym. He shouted that we should
10 get up because a Serb minister was coming in, and then what followed, as I
11 have described it.
12 Q. And that's when you recognised him by his voice; right?
13 A. By then, I already saw him as he walked in.
14 Q. You say that he introduced himself as a Serb minister; right?
15 A. A minister in the government, the Serb government.
16 Q. I imagine that he was speaking loudly as he walked in?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. So that other detainees could also hear him?
19 A. Yes. Well, when people could really focus, because everybody was
20 so afraid, and if they could really hear things.
21 Q. I'm just asking you very kindly to answer my questions, if that's
22 not a problem.
23 A. Yes, but, you know, I can't explain things to you if I do not
24 answer with additional matters.
25 Q. I asked you whether others --
1 A. Could hear, yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Then five of you were called out; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You, the Bicic brothers, Perica Misic, and Mersad Gibic; is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you went out into the corridor, there was a candle burning
8 and they had flashlights; is that right? Is that what you said?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you happen to remember who was holding the flashlight?
11 A. No.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you. [In English] If I could have the
13 assistance of the usher again, I'm sorry, about this. It's the same P30/1
14 ter document.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, if you happen to remember, Mr. Salkic,
16 where the candle was.
17 A. The candle was here.
18 Q. On the ELMO, please, Mr. Salkic.
19 A. Yes. There were big windows here, and they were raised about 1
20 metre 30, 40 above ground, and they were standing on the window ledge
21 there. And there was another one here on the table where the guards were.
22 Q. On this document, you marked the place where you were standing and
23 the order in which you were lined up along the wall, the crosses on the
24 right; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, I've said that. That's what I said.
1 Q. So that is between the guard bench and the corner of that room?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Salkic, the guards who were on duty in the
4 corridor, did they sit at that table?
5 A. I didn't pay attention to them. I didn't really notice.
6 Q. But usually? Would you say they usually sat there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Tell me, please, the wall you were lined up against, facing the
9 boiler room, it was half brick and half glass; is that right? There was a
10 glass partition above the bricks?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Let's return to the events now and focus on them. You
13 testified that Simic said some nonsensical things and started from Perica
14 Misic and ordered you to spread your legs, and he then kicked you with his
15 knee in the groin, in the genitals; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. His escorts would then continue to beat you; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do I understand you correctly to say that he kicked each of you
20 four in the genitals with his knee?
21 A. Well, he kicked me once. As far as I was able to notice, he
22 didn't do this to the rest, but he repeated it several times to the people
23 standing behind.
24 Q. And he then slapped you?
25 A. Yes. It wasn't anything that terrible compared to the others.
1 Q. You said "mildly." It wasn't interpreted. Did you say "mildly"?
2 A. Yes. It wasn't a strong slap. It was a slap, but he didn't
3 actually beat me very hard. I don't -- there might be a misunderstanding.
4 Q. No, no, no, no misunderstanding. I was thinking of the
6 A. I said it wasn't a strong blow. It was a mild, light slap.
7 Q. Do you remember whether he slapped each of you? If you remember,
8 Mr. Salkic. Only if you remember.
9 A. Well, I couldn't tell you now. I really couldn't say at this
10 point in time.
11 Q. Did he seem to you to be under the effects of alcohol, Mr. Simic?
12 Was he drunk?
13 A. Well, I still have that dilemma today. I'm still troubled by that
15 Q. Does that mean you're not sure?
16 A. Yes, that's right. May I be allowed to comment? May I be allowed
17 to comment? I'm not going to say anything terrible. Had he been drunk, I
18 would have found it easier at the time.
19 Q. Is that the dilemma that you were talking about?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell me, please, on the transcript of the 2nd of November,
22 page 53, line 1 goes on to say -- you said that you, and I mean all of
23 you, that his escorts proceeded to beat all of you with metal bars on your
24 chest, and Muhamed received three or four blows because he tried to
25 dodge. Is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That's what you said?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. On that same page of the transcript, you said, "Simic stood over
5 there, and behind him was a man with a weapon of some kind. They shot
6 above Perica's and Hasan's head." Is that what you said?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, if I remember correctly, Hasan was
9 closest to the entrance. Would you take a look at the floor plan? He was
10 closest to the entrance where it says "F57." Is that the cross denoting
11 Perica Misic?
12 A. Yes, because Gibic had gone inside. There was Perica, Hasan,
13 Muhamed, and then me.
14 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, did you see who did the shooting, who
16 A. I'm in a dilemma now. Those are the kinds of things that one has
17 a dilemma over. Now, can I just say I'm not thinking of anything bad? I
18 don't wish to confirm something at any point which is not true, not
19 correct, and I hope you'll understand me, the Defence counsel and the
20 Prosecution and the Trial Chamber, when I say this, that I am faced with a
21 dilemma. So I'm not going to say something I'm not absolutely certain
22 of. So once again, I can say that I'm not certain of who fired, although
23 others said who it was, but I didn't actually see it taking place.
24 Q. So you allow for the possibility that somebody else standing
25 behind Milan Simic might have done the firing?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. As I say, I didn't see it actually happen, so I don't want to
4 confirm or claim something that I didn't actually see. I was a
5 participant. I could join those who thought that way and said that, but I
6 didn't see it, and even if I think that I might -- that it might have
7 happened that way, I don't want to say that I actually saw it, because I
9 Q. Tell me, please --
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Just a moment, please, Your Honours.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, please, a moment ago, you said that
12 Perica and Hasan were closer to the corner. Is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The bullet that was fired ended up in the ceiling, the wall,
15 somewhere above their heads; is that right?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. You then saw Simic going out with his escorts; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So that means you were still lined up in the hallway of the school
20 when he came out?
21 A. Yes. He went out, and some of them went out, but not everybody.
22 Q. I'm asking you about him.
23 A. Yes, Mr. Simic went out.
24 Q. In that same transcript dated the 2nd of November, page 54 of the
25 unofficial transcript, line 22 and 23, you stated the following:
1 "I -- we thought they were finished, and then Muhamed asked
2 whether anybody had been wounded."
3 Is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Very well. Then you were sent back into the gym; is that right?
6 And you said that you were standing the whole night, singing, following
7 orders from the guards?
8 A. Those who stayed on with Mr. Simic who were last, who went out
9 last with him.
10 Q. Yes. But what I'm saying is that somebody ordered you to do that
11 and you had to stand all night and sing; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Nobody offered you any assistance, any compresses of any kind?
14 A. No, only what we had amongst ourselves.
15 Q. No. I'm saying did you help each other?
16 A. Well, we wouldn't be here now if we didn't.
17 Q. I mean on that occasion.
18 A. I see, yes.
19 Q. And then you said, "Five to seven days later, Milan returned,
20 brought out Hasan and Perica, Perica Misic, and they returned somewhere at
21 dawn." Is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. On that same transcript dated the 2nd of November, page 58, line
24 20 onwards, you said that they told you they had changed clothes, that
25 they talked to Milan, and you said, "I think that he sent us two cartons
1 of cigarettes."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that "He told them to apologise to me, Muhamed and Mersad
4 Gibic." That's what you said here; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Tell me now, please, why apologies to Mersad Gibic when he was
7 sent back to the gym and not beaten?
8 A. Yes, he was beaten. He got his share, inside when he was taken
9 out, but not by Mr. Milan Simic over there.
10 Q. If I understand you correctly, Mr. Milan Simic did not beat him.
11 He wasn't beaten by Mr. Milan Simic in the gym?
12 A. Now I have to comment. Make I make my comment? Can I comment
13 now? He was beaten in the hallway or corridor in between. There is a
14 middle corridor.
15 Q. Yes. But a moment ago you said that he wasn't beaten by Milan
17 A. No, he wasn't when we were brought out here, when we were taken
18 out here, and that's why I crossed him out there. But he probably thought
19 that it was his turn to apologise, which was nice of him.
20 Q. Just let's clear up one point, please. Mersad Gibic, was he
21 beaten by Milan Simic or not; yes or no?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You mean by Milan Simic?
24 A. Yes. But let me explain. Let me explain where.
25 Q. Yes, please, go ahead and explain.
1 A. You see this passageway here, from the entrance moving this way?
2 He was brought here, and then he was returned inside, straight away.
3 Somebody kicked him with his leg and said, "Go inside," told him to go
4 inside. That means that only the four of us remained standing there.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you. [In English] Could I just have a minute,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
8 JUDGE SINGH: Sorry, could I just seek a clarification? You were
9 asked, "Was he beaten by Milan Simic; yes or no?" And you said yes. "You
10 mean by Milan Simic?" You say yes again. Is that your answer, that he
11 was beaten by Milan Simic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE SINGH: Mersad Gibic?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mersad Gibic. He beat Mersad
15 Gibic, who was returned, sent back to the gym.
16 JUDGE SINGH: It's just that earlier at 1813, I think you said
17 that, "No, he was not beaten by him."
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He did not beat him at this place
19 here, in this position, this spot, that I indicated.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Just to complete the clarification, where, in which
21 area, did he beat him, did Mr. Milan Simic beat him? If you can point out
22 with your pointer.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That was here.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Indicating the entrance hall - thank you - to the
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you put a mark at the spot where this happened, a circle with
3 a cross inside, please, if you can remember where this happened.
4 A. You mean where Mr. Milan took -- beat Gibic? It was here.
5 Q. Did he beat anybody else there?
6 A. That was in passing, because Gibic came out first. That's why he
7 stood there in the hallway first.
8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Salkic, in 1995, or more exactly on the 7th and
9 the 9th of February, you gave a statement to the investigators. Do you
10 remember that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. There were three investigators, if you recall.
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. You don't remember?
15 A. I know there were three. Now, whether one of them was an
16 interpreter or not, I don't know. But there were three people.
17 Q. All right, three people.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Put it on the ELMO, please, the first page. The
19 cover page, yes.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, please, Mr. Salkic: Have a look at the
21 statement. It's your own statement.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And take a look at the screen, and you'll see signatures. Is that
24 your signature among them?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. On each of the pages you placed your initials. You initialed each
2 page; is that right? Take a look at the English version, please. Turn
3 the page and have a look at the pages, each of them. It's a bad copy?
4 A. Yes, it is. Can you help me out here? I don't know what you're
5 asking me about. I see my initials.
6 Q. I just want you to confirm whether that is your statement and your
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The statement is 13 pages long; is that right?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Well, have a look at the Serbian text.
12 A. Yes, 13.
13 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please: At that time, your memory was much
14 fresher, in view of the fact that you were exchanged a year and a half
15 before you gave this statement; is that right? Would that be correct?
16 A. Yes, but you can't say that. I can say whether I felt okay or
18 Q. I didn't ask you whether you felt all right or not; I asked you
19 whether your memory, your recollections were clearer then than they are
20 now. You said then rather than now.
21 A. Well, all right. Continue with your questioning. I don't -- I
22 see that my opinions aren't important.
23 Q. I'm just asking you: Yes or no?
24 A. My memories are always very clear in my mind when I think back to
25 those events, the events that took place and the things that I
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Witness. Please remember to pause, and please
3 don't be rude to counsel.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Would you be so kind as to turn to page 8 of your statement and
6 take a look at the last paragraph on page 8. And it has been marked in
7 yellow. The passage has been marked in yellow. Have you found it,
8 Mr. Salkic?
9 MR. ZECEVIC: It's the number 8 in English version as well. Yes.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Would you read that whole paragraph out, please.
11 A. You will do that and I will listen carefully.
12 Q. Very well. Then please give me the statement back.
13 A. If it was shorter, I would be happy to read it out, but like
14 this --
15 MR. ZECEVIC: It's fine. Just leave it with the witness so he can
16 check it out whether it's right or not.
17 Just bear with me, Your Honours. I'm sorry.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's okay.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You check to see if I'm reading out correctly:
21 "Stevo Todorovic would enter the gym and we would have to sing
22 Serbian songs. As he was the police chief, Stevo, with his bodyguards,
23 sometimes four or five, including Goran Hasic, Goran Ristic, and Slobo
24 Vakic, would start by -- would start from Omer Nalic and then move on to
25 the others, to the rest of us. He would ask whether we had any children
1 and said that we would no longer have them any more, and things like
2 that. We were made to stand with our legs spread and he would kick us in
3 the balls. When you fell down, the others would beat you and he would
4 move. Kissing his boot was another demand, as a 'Serbian boot walking
5 Serbian land.' He would kick kneeling prisoners, and then we had to thank
6 him for teaching us how to respect the Serbian chief and Serbian people.
7 Todorovic would then make a second round of the gym and would always
8 choose specific prisoners. As far as I recall, besides myself, the
9 victims were Behrem Masic, the brothers," whose name has been deleted,
10 "the Bicic brothers, [redacted] and Omer Nalic. The others who
11 were with Stevo would carry on with the beatings until the victims fell
13 Have I read that out correctly, your statement?
14 A. Yes, precisely as it happened, just the way it was.
15 Q. So you explained to us here the way in which Stevan Todorovic and
16 his entourage beat you; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. He beat all of you like that, including Muhamed Bicic?
19 A. Well, he would rarely miss him.
20 Q. Rarely miss him?
21 A. Yes. I think he was always beaten.
22 Q. Tell me, Mr. Salkic: You make no mention of Milan Simic in that
23 statement anywhere, not a single word.
24 A. Well, I said last time --
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please --
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't object to the question if Mr. Zecevic is
3 asking whether there's any mention of Milan Simic in that paragraph, nor
4 do I object if he's --
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Not the paragraph; the whole statement.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: The whole statement. That's right. Now, as long
7 as that's specified and made clear to the witness, because I wasn't clear,
8 and I think that's important that that be clarified. Otherwise, I have no
9 objection, just subject to that clarification.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I cannot follow the translation, but I
11 did ask: Have you had -- mentioned Milan Simic in this statement? That
12 is exactly what I said.
13 Q. [Interpretation] That's what I said: in the statement.
14 A. Not in that statement, but in the other statement, yes.
15 Q. When you say "the other statement," do you mean the March 1998
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Salkic: In this 1995 statement that you have
19 in front of you, you make no mention, as you have said, of the Utva and
20 Brcko sites, nor do you mention the beating of the four of you.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You mean you don't mention them?
23 A. Not in this one. Probably not. I don't know. I would have to
24 read through it, but I don't think so, no.
25 Q. You don't mention the shooting and firing that you took -- that
1 you mentioned above the head of your own brother when you thought at one
2 moment that he might be killed. You don't make any mention of that
4 A. No.
5 Q. So all these events appear in the statement of the 10th of March,
7 A. I don't know when that second statement was, what the date was.
8 Q. Would you like to take a look at it?
9 A. No. There's no need. I said what I said.
10 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you now: The events that I enumerated a
11 moment ago appear the first time in the 1998 statement?
12 A. Yes. That's when the investigators came. I saw fit to tell them
14 Q. What made you think that this was a fit occasion to tell them
16 A. Well, just so that that was -- that became common knowledge, that
17 this truth should out [sic].
18 Q. Yes, but it has nothing to do with Milan Simic's surrender in
19 1998, did it?
20 A. Yes. Yes. That's how I got the idea to state what I had seen.
21 It brought it to mind.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, it's --
23 MR. ZECEVIC: I have just one more question, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Salkic: Before this Trial Chamber, you said
2 a moment ago that your memory is equally fresh at all times; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. On page 10 of the transcript dated the 2nd of November, having
6 described this event in the primary school in its entirety and Mr. Simic's
7 departure, asked by the Prosecutor whether anybody used a weapon or
8 instrument of any kind, your answer was: "Yes. As I have already said,
9 when they prepared to leave, they were at the entrance or exit. I forgot
10 to say that." Is that right?
11 A. Who do you mean was at the exit? Are you reading that or what?
12 Q. Yes. I'm reading from the transcript.
13 A. Well, in that case I meant Todorovic, Simic, and the escorts,
14 because he said they were his escorts.
15 Q. I completely agree, but I'm just asking you: You said, "I forgot
16 that." Were those your words? Did you say you had forgotten it, and the
17 Prosecutor reminded you of it?
18 A. Yes, I forgot to say that. I forgot to say what took place as
19 they were going out.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salkic.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: I'd like to know whether the other counsel would
22 like to cross-examine. I can see Mr. Lukic shaking his head.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on behalf of my
24 colleague Mr. Pisarevic, I can say that both of us will be examining the
25 witness. It will take about half an hour. Maybe my colleagues will take
1 a little longer.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We shall adjourn now, and we shall
3 resume tomorrow morning at 0930 hours, hopefully, if we have all the
4 services that are required for these proceedings.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: I wonder, if Your Honours please, if Mr. Pisarevic
6 could give us a brief indication. It's just for purposes of getting
7 Mr. Tihic here. We don't want him sitting around for too long. If we
8 start at 9.30 and we know that Mr. Lukic is going to be about half an
9 hour, if Mr. Pisarevic could indicate about how long he will be, that
10 would enable us to get Mr. Tihic here at a more reasonable hour. He's
11 been driving a long time, I think, and it would be ideal to ensure that
12 he's not here at -- that he's here at a more appropriate time.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.
14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I intend to
15 cross-examine Mr. Salkic for at least one hour.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: So Mr. Tihic can be brought after the break.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Court will rise.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.35 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day of
22 November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.