1 Tuesday, 6 November 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav
9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Good morning, Witness.
11 We are continuing with cross-examination. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
13 morning to everybody taking part in the proceedings.
14 WITNESS: IBRAHIM SALKIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:
17 Q. Mr. Salkic, good morning.
18 A. Good morning to you too.
19 Q. My name is Novak Lukic. I'm the attorney and Defence counsel for
20 Mr. Miroslav Tadic, and I'll be asking you a few questions on his behalf.
21 I should like to ask you, as we did yesterday with respect to clarity and
22 time economy, to give us brief answers: "yes," "no," or "I don't know."
23 Let us go back to the events you were describing when you were
24 arrested and the circumstances of your arrest. On Easter, the 19th, I
25 think you were arrested and taken to the SUP premises, and from there you
1 were transferred to the TO warehouse; is that right?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You were arrested on the 18th and transferred to the TO warehouse
4 on the 19th; is that right?
5 A. Yes. I was arrested on the 18th, and on the 19th, or the 20th, in
6 the morning -- but I think it was the 19th, yes, in the morning.
7 Q. Before noon?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you said you encountered 20 to 30 people who were there
11 A. No. All the people went there together with us.
12 Q. So the warehouse was actually empty before you all went into it,
13 before you were transferred from the SUP premises to the TO warehouse; is
14 that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. At the time, Dragan Lukac was transferred together with you, was
17 he not?
18 A. I'm not sure about that - I think that he was -- had still not
19 been brought in - whether he was transferred from the SUP to the TO or
20 whether he was brought in later.
21 Q. Yes, but he was at the TO until you were exchanged?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The brothers Bicic, Hasan and Muhamed, were they transferred to
24 the TO building together with you?
25 A. No. They were brought in later, but then they stayed with us all
1 the time.
2 Q. What about Mr. Tihic? Was he in the TO building too with you?
3 A. He came later. He was brought in later, like the others.
4 Q. So he wasn't there on that weekend, was he, none of those people?
5 A. No, I don't think so.
6 Q. Mr. Izet Izetbegovic, how about him? Was he in the TO building?
7 A. Yes, but he wasn't brought together with us from the SUP, but he
8 was brought in later.
9 Q. As far as I was able to understand, all these people except
10 Izetbegovic were transferred to Brcko the following week for Easter, the
11 26th, as far as I know, unless I'm wrong on the dates.
12 A. Yes, because I -- yes.
13 Q. Sir, Mr. Salkic, did you see Mr. Miroslav Tadic while were you in
14 the TO warehouse?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you. I should like to move on to another area now. In your
17 examination-in-chief, you said that you would like to go back to the topic
18 that I'm going to discuss, but the Prosecutor didn't ask you any questions
19 on that topic further. What I'm talking about is your description of the
20 events between the 16th and 17th and your meeting with Mr. Namik Suljic.
21 You said that he called the policeman standing on the bridge, on page 322
22 actually, and later on it turned out that Namik was right because all
23 those people were also incarcerated, and I'm quoting your words, what you
24 said. Do you remember having said that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know how many policemen there actually were at the
2 checkpoint on the bridge across the Sava River?
3 A. I think that four people were detained, three, but actually I
4 think there were four.
5 Q. Thank you. And they were all taken to the TO building or the SUP?
6 A. Yes. They were already in the SUP building and they were taken to
7 the TO with us.
8 Q. Were they wearing police uniforms?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Talking about uniforms, you mentioned people who were detained in
11 Brcko - or Batkovici, I'm sorry. I meant Batkovici - and you said that
12 there were several officers of the former JNA. You assumed they were
13 officers, otherwise they were wearing civilian clothing. Now, do you
14 recall that in Batkovic, together with you, Lucic, Ivo and Sacic, Boris
15 were incarcerated with you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know that they were soldiers of the Croatian army from
19 A. Yes, I had heard something about that along those lines, but I
20 couldn't be sure because they were in civilian clothing and I didn't talk
21 to them much.
22 Q. Thank you. You said that some friends talked about the formation
23 of units set up by citizens themselves for the organisation of the town,
24 that you didn't actually join because you didn't have time for things like
25 that. I'm interested in knowing the following: Can you remember, when
1 they told you about this newly established TO, who told you about that?
2 A. Friends and acquaintances from town.
3 Q. Did anybody invite you to go there?
4 A. No. I went at my own initiative.
5 Q. During your examination-in-chief on the 1st of November, 2001, you
6 said that when you came to where the people were being registered, that
7 that was the real thing, the proper thing, that "we were together again."
8 You said something like that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You saw the members of all three ethnic groups and you were happy
11 to see them there. That was something that you were happy to see; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did anyone force you to sign up to this newly established TO?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You also said that you went inside, that you waited for about half
17 an hour, if I remember correctly, and that then you signed a joining-up
18 document. I remember you saying that. Do you happen to remember what it
19 said on this membership formula?
20 A. Well, no. It was a list and there was a form to fill in that had
21 come from the ministry, that it was saying that it was a legal institution
22 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that anybody could take part and become a member
23 who were in favour of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And I was in favour of it, so I
24 subscribed to the list.
25 Q. Yes, but nobody forced you to place your signature there?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You did it of your own free will?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What about --
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, pausing, pausing, please.
6 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
7 Q. [Interpretation] What about the others who were there with you?
8 Were they forced to sign the form to enlist?
9 A. No. I don't think so. There was nobody to force them.
10 Q. Would you -- would there have been any kind of sanctions for
11 punishment if you did not join up?
12 A. No. It was my moral duty towards my country, as an able-bodied
13 man, to become a member of that organisation.
14 Q. Did anybody force you to become a member of the Fazan hunting
16 A. No.
17 Q. You said that after you did your military service, you were
18 assigned to the Territorial Defence of the old SFRY, within the frameworks
19 of the armed forces; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. May we take it, then, that after doing your military service, you
22 were called up to report to the Secretariat for National Defence to be
23 given your wartime assignment as a member of the reserve formation of the
24 armed forces; is that right?
25 A. Yes. We even had some training and some practice, which is quite
2 Q. Had you not gone to the Secretariat for National Defence to
3 respond to the call-up, would they have taken any sanctions against you?
4 A. Yes. According to the system that existed then, I would have been
5 criminally prosecuted.
6 Q. Had you not gone to the military exercises and training, would you
7 have been criminally prosecuted as well?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. As far as I can remember, all the call-ups for military training,
10 it said on the invitation you received, that failure to respond to the
11 call-up would imply sanctions. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I have just a few more questions for you. Mr. Salkic, did you,
14 since you were freed and at liberty and since the war ended, did you go to
15 Samac at all?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How frequently, can you tell us, and when did you start going back
18 to Samac?
19 A. Well, I can't give you the exact date. But when I returned from
20 Germany, that was July or August 1998, so from that time onwards, whenever
21 I was able to, I went back.
22 Q. How often? Once a month perhaps or ...
23 A. Well, sometimes even three times a day. Sometimes I wouldn't go
24 for a month, depending on the circumstances and whether I had any need to
25 go into town.
1 Q. Did you do any work, professionally speaking, relating to your
2 trade? Did you have any business dealings in Samac?
3 A. Yes. Of late, yes.
4 Q. I have one more question for you. You described in detail in this
5 courtroom the beatings that took place, the beatings by people who beat
6 others from outside Samac, from Serbia, and also people from that area.
7 Now, during your stay in Samac, did you see any of the people who beat
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. Thank
12 [In English] Your Honour, I've finished cross-examination.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The last counsel, Mr. Pisarevic.
14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Salkic.
17 A. Good morning to you too, Mr. Pisarevic.
18 Q. I am Borislav Pisarevic, Defence counsel for Mr. Simo Zaric.
19 Before we begin with the cross-examination, I should like to say the
20 following, and that is that Mr. Zaric, Mr. Simo Zaric, and I, acting as
21 his Defence counsel, would like to express our profound condolences for
22 all your sufferings and hardships during this unfortunate war.
23 As you said, you and your family have lived in the town and
24 municipality of Samac for many years. May we take it that in addition to
25 the Muslims, Serbs, and Croats, Bosanski Samac was inhabited by quite a
1 number of Yugoslavs, people who declared themselves as Yugoslavs, and
2 Montenegrins, Albanians, and other nations and nationalities?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. May we also take it that the Muslim ethnic group in the town of
5 Bosanski Samac numbered 25 per cent, approximately?
6 A. Well, I can't be sure of the percentage, but thereabouts.
7 Q. Very well. Thank you. May we also agree that in the municipality
8 of Bosanski Samac, taken as a broader area, the Muslims numbered
9 approximately 7 per cent?
10 A. Yes. Seven point something per cent. So my answer is yes, more
11 or less.
12 Q. You said that you knew Simo Zaric and that you have known him for
13 25 to 30 years.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. May we agree, then, that Simo Zaric, in the town of Samac and the
16 municipality itself, was a respected citizen?
17 A. Yes, we can, fully.
18 Q. Can we also agree that Mr. Simo Zaric never demonstrated any lack
19 of tolerance?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Lack of tolerance towards other people, regardless of their
22 national and ethnic affiliation?
23 A. Yes, up until one point.
24 Q. Did he demonstrate tolerance to religious affiliation of citizens?
25 A. Yes. That is to say, his wife is a Muslim herself, so he did
1 not --
2 Q. Perhaps you didn't understand me, Mr. Salkic. My question was as
3 follows: Was Mr. Zaric tolerant towards other religious affiliation?
4 A. Yes. I apologise. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Did he show tolerance towards different political affiliation of
7 A. Well, I would say of late, yes.
8 Q. And did Mr. Zaric have a positive attitude towards all the
9 citizens, regardless of their social status?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now I'm going to ask you the following: Do you happen to know
12 that the wife of Mr. Simo Zaric is Muslim?
13 A. Yes, up to a certain point in time.
14 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me when I say that Simo Zaric was
15 a true supporter of the idea of Yugoslavhood and Yugoslavia?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You said that you were a member of the Fazan hunting society of
18 Bosanski Samac; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you confirm and do we agree that Simo Zaric was also a member
21 of the Fazan hunting society of Samac?
22 A. Yes. We even went hunting together sometimes.
23 Q. Just wait for my answers [as interpreted], please.
24 A. I apologise.
25 Q. You said that your hunting society numbered about 15 members.
1 A. Yes. This number changed. Some people would turn up, others
2 wouldn't, but more or less there were between 10 and 15 of us in our
4 Q. Can you confirm the fact that your hunting group was composed of
5 different ethnic groups, nationalities?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. May we also take it that there were members of
8 different religions in your hunting society too?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you agree that among the members of your hunting group there
11 were members with different political views and affiliations?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Would you also agree that in your hunting group there were
14 workers, tradesmen, entrepreneurs, members of the police force, respected
15 citizens, and intellectuals alike?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you agree with me when I say that according to the rules and
18 regulations governing hunting societies, you could only hunt in the
19 hunting season, when hunting was permitted within the frameworks of a
20 hunting group?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Would you agree with me too that the hunting season, open season,
23 ended in November?
24 A. Well, I can't give you a yes or no answer there. It depended. It
25 depended on the weather conditions. Sometimes we could go up to the new
1 year. Sometimes the end of the season would be in December,
2 mid-December. But more or less up to new year, yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 When was the hunting season declared open in the spring?
5 A. Well, it opens on the 1st of June. Open season the 1st of June.
6 The official opening of the season begins sometime around the 1st of June.
7 Q. May we also take it that in this period of time, when it was
8 closed season, your hunting group met less frequently, very rarely or
9 hardly at all?
10 A. Well, we did meet nevertheless. We would meet on weekdays, but we
11 didn't go hunting, of course.
12 Q. As far as hunting was concerned, you met rarely?
13 A. Well, yes, but we used to socialise. So it was that group that
14 would meet from time to time.
15 Q. Very well. Thank you. As far as I'm aware - and you'll correct
16 me if I'm wrong - all the members of the hunting organisation had to have
17 hunting weapons to go hunting with?
18 A. They didn't have to. They could be members of the hunting society
19 and not possess a rifle, but those were rare cases in our parts.
20 Q. I'm referring to the majority.
21 A. Well, yes. That would be right, then.
22 Q. You would agree with me, I think, that shotguns -- shotguns were
23 used for pheasants, rabbits, and smaller game, that kind of thing?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I think you'll also agree with me when I say that carbines were
1 used for larger game?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Such as deer, boars, and so on?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And can we agree that many hunters in Samac, and the members of
6 your group too, hunting group, owned carbines?
7 A. Well, mostly, yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you confirm the following fact, that the carbine
9 was a weapon which is not an automatic weapon? Is that true?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. And can you answer this: How many bullets are there in a carbine
12 ammunition box?
13 A. The ones we had, the ones we used when we hunted together, there
14 were a maximum of five or six and then the additional bullets in the
16 Q. Thank you. And could you give us the calibre of that ammunition?
17 A. Well, depending on the different calibres, we had different
18 calibre carbines. 857, that kind of thing.
19 Q. Thank you. I assume that using that kind of ammunition, you can
20 also kill a bear, deer, and so forth, but that you could also kill a human
21 being using the same ammunition?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Big-game hunting is done at a distance of several hundred metres;
24 is that right?
25 A. Well, depending on the target, whether you have an optic sight, a
1 sniper or not. And you had to do it from a special vantage point, looking
2 down on to your target.
3 Q. Thank you. You needn't go into the details. Can you confirm that
4 with a carbine -- or rather, on a carbine itself, you usually have an
5 optic sight for precision targeting, in view of the distance at which you
6 are shooting?
7 A. Yes, for those of us who had money to purchase the optic sight or
8 who needed to use it.
9 Q. Thank you. May we also agree that a carbine with optic sight is
10 in fact a weapon known under the common term of "sniper"?
11 A. Well, yes. That's what we called it.
12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Salkic, in view of the fact that you spent your
13 whole life living in Bosanski Samac, I'm going to ask you several
14 questions concerning some events that took place in the municipality of
15 Samac and the town of Samac itself. I'm sure you know that at the end of
16 1991 and in the course of 1992, in Samac municipality, various sabotage
17 activities took place, there were various explosions and things of that
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I'm sure you will recall the event that took place on the 27th of
21 January, 1992, when the Serbian Orthodox church was demolished in Bosanski
22 Samac on their saint day, St. Sava's Day?
23 A. Well, believe me when I say that I don't actually remember that.
24 I'm not saying that it didn't happen.
25 Q. Very well. You say you don't remember. You are aware of an event
1 when two young Muslim men were killed and a girl of Serbian nationality
2 was seriously wounded on the 14th of February, 1992, in the Valentino
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you agree with me that on that occasion, the populace of the
6 town of Samac was very disturbed, upset, especially the Muslims?
7 A. Yes, I agree. I think people of every nationality were upset.
8 Q. Yes, but mostly Muslims. Are you aware that this event was used
9 to blame the Serbs, the JNA, and accuse them of being involved in this
11 A. If you will allow me just a brief comment, my own view.
12 Q. Yes, go ahead.
13 A. Well, of course there were rumours, but the truth was known.
14 Unfortunately, it was tragic for those people in that cafe.
15 Q. Do you remember that because of the mounting tension and the fact
16 that the citizens of Samac were disturbed, a rally was held in the cinema
17 in Bosanski Samac?
18 A. I am not aware of that rally.
19 Q. But you must be aware of the fact that the SDA, the Party of
20 Democratic Action, and its military wing, on the 21st of March, 1992, set
21 up barricades at the entrance to Bosanski Samac from the villages of
22 Tisina and another village?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I assume you are also aware of the leaflet that was distributed on
25 the 1st of April, 1992, around Samac about traitors, drawn up by the SDA?
1 A. I don't know. I only heard about it. But who wrote it and who
2 distributed it, I really don't know. I have heard of this leaflet, but I
3 cannot say either yes or no, because I myself never saw it.
4 Q. Did you learn in some other way who the people were mentioned in
5 that leaflet?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can we agree, then, that that leaflet contained the names of
8 members of the 4th Detachment of the JNA who were Muslims?
9 A. If you will allow me another comment.
10 Q. Either you know or you don't.
11 A. I don't.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. But if you will allow me --
14 Q. Go ahead.
15 A. Can I say "yes and no" and then just give a little comment? There
16 were rumours going around town, but I myself never saw the leaflet. I
17 know more or less who the people were mentioned in the rumours. I myself
18 never saw the leaflet. I don't know who issued it. But people talked
19 about it in town. So I can say both yes and no, but I cannot be certain,
20 because I myself never saw it, so I cannot confirm it.
21 Q. Did people say that the people were Muslims?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel and the witness, please pause. You are not
25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.
1 Q. Very well. I believe you are aware of the wounding of Osman Mesic
2 and Danilo and others near the Mol Cafe [phoen] in Bosanski Samac. Can we
3 agree that all these events contributed to a high degree of insecurity
4 among the citizens of Bosanski Samac?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Salkic, you said that you were a member of the SDA and that
7 you left the party six months before the outbreak of hostilities in
8 Bosanski Samac.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Whether it was six or five, it's not really important.
11 Mr. Salkic, in the period from the 3rd of March to the 7th of March, 1992,
12 were you a member of the patrol organised by the SDA in the town of Samac
13 without receiving any remuneration for your participation like the other
15 A. I was never in an SDA patrol.
16 Q. Can you confirm the fact that you were at the barricade on the
17 21st of March, 1992? And I'm referring to the barricade near the
18 veterinary station.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you tell me that you were called up by Alija Fitozovic, the
21 commander of the party armed formation for the town of Samac, and told to
22 participate in manning this checkpoint?
23 A. No. I came on my own initiative.
24 Q. How did you learn, Mr. Salkic, that barricades were being set up
25 at the entrance to the town of Samac?
1 A. I received a phone call from someone, and he explained to me that
2 the war had already broken out - not war as such, but there were
3 problems - and I got into my car and went there.
4 Q. Can we agree that the checkpoints were manned exclusively by
5 members of the Party of Democratic Action, members who were Muslims,
6 members of the armed party unit, and reserve policemen of the public
7 security station in Bosanski Samac who were of Muslim ethnicity?
8 A. Yes, we can agree about some of these details, but not overall.
9 So if you will allow me to comment, nobody had a label stuck to their
10 foreheads saying whether they were party members or this or that. Yes,
11 you're right that most of them were Muslims. A few were Croats, and there
12 were policemen, but who the formations belonged to, I couldn't tell you.
13 Q. Thank you. Can we agree that the people manning the checkpoints
14 were armed with military weapons?
15 A. Some of them, yes.
16 Q. Mr. Salkic, were you at the barricades with the weapon you had
17 bought illegally, your Kalashnikov? Was that the Kalashnikov you bought
18 for a thousand German marks?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, because the question
21 was double-barrelled, I don't know if the witness is saying, "Yes, that's
22 the Kalashnikov I bought for a thousand German marks" or whether he's
23 agreeing -- that the Kalashnikov he bought cost a thousand German or
24 whether he was at the barricades. I think he might be answering yes to
25 both, but the question should be framed differently so that we're clear
1 about that. I would like to know, and it's a little bit unclear.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure the witness has understood what you
3 are saying and he can explain his answer.
4 And, Counsel, do make sure that your questions are not loaded.
5 One aspect at a time, please.
6 So, Mr. Salkic, please explain your answer.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was there with that
8 Kalashnikov which I had bought and paid for with my own money.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel can go ahead.
10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. When you were buying this Kalashnikov, did you also buy ammunition
12 for it?
13 A. Not at the time, but I did later on.
14 Q. When you bought your Kalashnikov, did you also buy ammunition for
16 A. No.
17 Q. Can you confirm the fact that you got ammunition for that
18 Kalashnikov - 4 rounds, 40 armour-piercing weapons, 45 piercing bullets,
19 and 40 incendiary bullets - from the party armed formation, commanded by
20 Alija Fitozovic?
21 A. No. I never received ammunition from them.
22 Q. Can you confirm to me, or deny, the fact that from Alija
23 Fitozovic, the commander of the party armed unit and later on the Chief of
24 Staff of the Territorial Defence, that he gave you a uniform of the
25 Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina with lilies and that it was
1 a green uniform.
2 A. Not from Alija, but from the people in Cafe Buco, from some people
3 I knew. I never, never received a uniform.
4 Q. If I understood you properly, you received a patch?
5 A. No. I had a patch. I never received either a uniform or a patch
6 from Alija Fitozovic.
7 Q. When you are talking about the patch, are you referring to the
8 lilies I mentioned?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can we agree that the fleurs-de-lis were the official emblem of
11 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
12 A. Whether it is official, I couldn't say. I simply got them from a
13 friend and they were the symbol of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pisarevic, if I could ask Mr. Salkic.
15 You, in response to a question, said that you did not get a
16 uniform from Alija. Your answer is, "Not from Alija, but from the people
17 in Cafe Buco." I'm just wondering, Mr. Salkic, what did you get from the
18 people in the cafe?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I probably wasn't clear. Only the
20 patch. I didn't have a uniform because I had my hunting uniform and I
21 didn't need any other uniform, nor was I getting ready for war so that I
22 would require a uniform.
23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Salkic, this patch that you received, did you wear it openly
1 around the town of Bosanski Samac?
2 A. Yes. On one occasion, I stuck it onto my hunting uniform.
3 Q. Very well. Thank you. So the patch you received, you wore on
4 your hunting uniform?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Salkic, are you aware of the fact that the presidency of the
7 Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia on the 13th of December, 1991,
8 when -- while Bosnia and Herzegovina was still part of the Socialist
9 Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, established a general mobilisation of
10 military-able persons?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Mr. Salkic, you did not respond to the call-up of the JNA? You
13 did not report to the 4th Detachment of the 17th Tactical Group of the
15 A. No. I didn't receive the call-up, but even if I had, I certainly
16 would not have responded.
17 Q. Thank you. You will agree with me that as a citizen and a
18 military-able person, it was your duty to respond?
19 A. No, I don't agree. And if you will allow me a short comment, I'll
20 explain why.
21 Q. There is no need. There is no need. Can we agree that you did
22 not respond?
23 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm not clear with the time perspective with regard
24 to the answer of Mr. Salkic, because at first he said he didn't receive
25 the call-up, but even if he had, he would not have joined, and then he was
1 explaining it was not necessary. I want to know what he means. Was it at
2 that time? Because he didn't receive the call-up, so he couldn't have
3 said at that time that it was not necessary to join. And then you can't
4 put it to him that it was wrong not to join, if his answer is that he
5 didn't receive the call-up. So I would like Mr. Salkic to explain what he
6 means. Did he receive the call-up or he didn't. If he did, did he find
7 it necessary to join or to answer the call or not to?
8 Can we have an explanation, please?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I will be very brief. There
10 was already a war in Slovenia and Croatia. I knew that draft notes were
11 being sent out. I was not at home very often. And I told my wife, "You
12 must not receive the draft note. I do not want to join the Yugoslav
13 People's Army to go to neighbouring Croatia and kill innocent people."
14 That's my explanation.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Can we agree that apart from the reasons you have mentioned just
18 now, you did not respond to the call-up because you are a Muslim and Alija
19 Izetbegovic, the president of the SDA, on the 7th of October, 1991,
20 publicly called on all Muslims not to respond to call-ups to do their
21 regular military service or to the draft notes?
22 A. Again, I will not agree. I would like to comment.
23 Q. There is no need to comment.
24 A. I wouldn't agree. I wouldn't agree.
25 Q. Do you know of this appeal made by President Alija Izetbegovic?
1 A. Maybe yes, maybe no. Basically I don't remember it, so -- I
2 already had my view of things, so I did not need any suggestions from
3 outside. I don't know about it.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, perhaps I'm missing
5 something here, but I don't know what appeal by President Alija
6 Izetbegovic Mr. Pisarevic refers to.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Where?
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Line 19, there is a question: "Do you know of this
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. You don't understand the appeal, what he
12 MR. DI FAZIO: No. If I'm missing something, then I don't need to
13 pursue it, but I don't understand.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: The counsel can explain.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm concerned that the Chamber might have my
16 difficulty as well, so I just wonder if that could be clarified.
17 JUDGE SINGH: Yes, because I think just a little earlier at
18 14102149, he said, "The president of the SDA on the 7th of October, 1991,
19 publicly called on all Muslims not to respond to the call-up to do their
20 military service."
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see.
22 JUDGE SINGH: Because that question is double-barrelled, because
23 if you look at it, "You did not respond," and then, "Did he say this?" So
24 I mean, it's very difficult for him to answer this question. So one
25 question at a time, please.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Could the witness answer?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to make a
3 correction, if I may, Your Honour, just to correct something. He was then
4 the legally elected president of Bosnia and Herzegovina, not the party
5 president of the SDA. So that he probably did issue a public appeal to
6 the population, but I do not feel that he was the president of the SDA but
7 he was the president of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: So the implication there is that he made that appeal
9 in his capacity as president of B and H, not president of the party? Is
10 that so, Witness?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. His Honour said the president
12 of the SDA. I didn't want this to be misunderstood. He was then the
13 legally elected president of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it was probably
14 in this capacity that he made this proclamation to the people, but I'm not
15 aware of it.
16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we shall clarify the
17 situation now.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Can we agree that Alija Izetbegovic was the president of the Party
21 of Democratic Action in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Salkic, you said he was the president. Can we agree that he
24 was not the president of Bosnia and Herzegovina but that Mr. Alija
25 Izetbegovic was the president of the presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
1 A. Yes. So I probably didn't express myself properly, but the
2 president, yes. There was a presidency, then, at the time probably. I'm
3 not very familiar with this, but yes, in essence, I agree with you.
4 Q. Can we agree that even at the cost of having criminal proceedings
5 instituted against you for the criminal act of failure to respond to a
6 call-up, you decided not to respond to the call-up?
7 A. I did not receive the draft note. It was never handed to me. I
8 explained how I avoided having it handed to me.
9 Q. According to your statement, when Tihic, Pasaga, informed you of
10 events in the town, you took your Kalashnikov and some ammunition, put on
11 your hunting uniform, and set out towards the centre of town. Is that
12 correct? On your hunting equipment that evening, were you wearing the
13 patch of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
14 A. No.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I don't want to be pedantic, and again it's
16 the same problem. What's the answer "no" to: whether he was wearing the
17 patch or whether he went to the town with his Kalashnikov and some
18 ammunition? I don't understand.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Again, it was a loaded question, yes.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: It's just two questions. Do one at a time, and
21 then there's no ambiguity.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Salkic --
25 MR. DI FAZIO: And one other matter is the - and Mr. Weiner points
1 out to me - the occasion is not identified. I think it's the barricades
2 episode that Mr. Pisarevic is referring to, but again, that should be --
3 it should be clarified.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let counsel break down the questions, and also
5 identify the event, possibly the date.
6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Salkic, on the 17th of April, 1992, at around 2.00, you were
8 informed [redacted] of some events in the town; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You took your Kalashnikov?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You took some ammunition for it?
13 A. Of course I did. Why would I carry an empty gun?
14 Q. We are simply clarifying. You put on your hunting uniform?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You set out toward the centre of town?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you carry binoculars with you?
19 A. Not at that time.
20 Q. Did you take your Motorola?
21 A. Not then.
22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 Q. The Kalashnikov that you did take with you, was it the same
25 Kalashnikov that you had purchased and that you were at the barricades
1 carrying on the 22nd of March in Bosanski Samac by the vet clinic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What about the ammunition that you took? Was it the ammunition
4 that you had received from the party SDA armed formation in Samac?
5 A. No. And I state again that I did not receive any ammunition from
7 Q. Where and when -- where did you procure that ammunition?
8 A. Well, it was very easy to do that before the war. I bought it on
9 the black market. They had plenty of it, and I paid one Deutschmark per
10 bullet. That was the going price.
11 Q. You also said that on the occasion you met Suljic, Namik, the
12 commander of the reserve police force of the public security station of
13 Samac, who was on duty that particular night.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Would you agree that from your house, you [redacted]
16 [redacted] left your house [redacted] at about 2.15?
17 A. Well, more or less.
18 Q. May we also take it that you met Namik Suljic at about 2.30?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Does that mean to say that you and [redacted] and Namik Suljic
21 were in front of the hotel in Bosanski Samac?
22 A. Yes. We met up there. We found ourselves there later.
23 Q. Can you state whether you moved to the park in Bosanski Samac
24 after that, which is opposite the hotel, on the other side of the road?
25 A. Not the park, but in front of the SDK, or social accounting
1 services building.
2 Q. Thank you. In the course of your testimony before this Tribunal,
3 you stated, on page 3220, line 25 --
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. We have
6 a comment regarding the transcript.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: This witness said that they went to the park
8 place, something, and we don't see this in the transcript, so maybe it
9 would be good to clarify this at the moment.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe the counsel can ask the witness again.
11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. After meeting up in front of the hotel, did you go to the park
14 A. Yes. I'm going to describe that. You have the hotel on one side
15 and --
16 Q. Could you indicate that to us on the map. Could you draw it for
17 us, please.
18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] That is to say, could the witness
19 be shown the map of Samac, which is Exhibit P9.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: But at the same time, you want him to make out a
22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 [Witness complies]
24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Could you indicate with the pointer the hotel building in Bosanski
1 Samac. Could you point it out to us.
2 A. That's the new hotel, that's the old hotel, that's the SDK
3 building, and the park. That is where we met.
4 Q. So you met in the park area?
5 A. Well, you can't have a car go into the park, so we stopped there
6 and we were on the corner by this kiosk, but it already belonged to the
7 park section.
8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, may we note that
9 the witness indicated the part of the park in which the witness Salkic
10 stood [redacted] Namik Suljic.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And many others. And many others
13 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues]...
14 MR. DI FAZIO: I was just about to say that it should be
15 identified where the marking -- a number or something --
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps a circle with an "X" inside.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
18 [Witness complies]
19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Salkic, you said a moment ago that many other people were
21 there too. These other people, the many other people that you mentioned,
22 were they in the park?
23 A. Well, some came through the park, some came along the road,
24 because you could hear the shooting round about the SUP building already,
25 and people had taken to their feet.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you proceed, can we have a number, please,
2 for the sketch by Mr. Salkic.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D10/4 ter.
4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many people were in the park at
6 that moment?
7 A. Three, four, five maybe, depending on who was on the move. Some
8 came via the road, others came from another direction, other people were
9 sitting in the cafe at Ena's, because it worked around the clock. So in
10 the 10 or 15 minutes that I was there, there might have been 10 to 12
12 Q. And can you confirm the following fact: that these people came
13 with weapons, carrying weapons?
14 A. No, not all of them, at least, but probably there were some who
15 did have weapons. Namik was a policeman, so he was armed. [redacted]
17 [redacted] And then people came in. Now, whether they did or
18 didn't, I don't know. It was already dark. But I was armed. I can claim
19 that for myself, but I can't say about the others.
20 Q. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that some people were
21 armed and others were not. Is that right?
22 A. Yes. It was me and Namik. They were the ones that I said were
23 armed. Some other people were not armed.
24 Q. The people who came to the park in Bosanski Samac, were they --
25 were some of them carrying army weapons?
1 A. Perhaps. I can't say for sure.
2 Q. Can you say that you saw people coming?
3 A. Well, I've just told you, there were four to five people to begin
4 with, later on, ten people before I had left and went on further.
5 Q. May we also agree that you stayed in that park until 5.00 a.m.,
6 5.00 in the morning?
7 A. No.
8 Q. During your testimony before this Court, you said, on page 3220,
9 line 25, the following: "We then decided to move off towards the river
10 and the bridge." On page 3221, line 10, you say that it was the bridge on
11 the river Bosna.
12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask the usher's assistance?
13 Could he show the witness his statement, the statement he made on the 7th
14 to the 9th of February, 1992, the Serbo-Croatian version or the B/C/S
15 version, which has the portions marked and so it is marked also in the
16 English version. It is page 00637751, line 6.
17 Q. Could the witness read it out, please. But if you find it
18 difficult to read it out, I shall be happy to do so.
19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pisarevic, I assume there is an error in the
20 transcript here. It says, "The statement he made on the 7th to the 9th of
21 February, 1992." I'm presuming this is the 1995 statement. Is that
23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] 1995, yes, Your Honour. Thank
24 you. 1995.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness should read the passage slowly so
1 that the interpreters can interpret.
2 MR. PISAREVIC:
3 Q. [Interpretation] It is the 6th line: [redacted]..."
4 A. You want me to read that? "I went [redacted] to a command post
5 set up in a private house nearby. This was now about 5.00 a.m. We tried
6 to contact some of our people we could rely upon and who had weapons. I
7 went with Nedim Alajbegovic to the bridge over the Bosna River, since we
8 had a major headquarters across the river in Prud."
9 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that those two statements of yours are in
10 opposition to each other, contradictory, whereas they are about the same
11 event that took place?
12 A. Yes. But I can't explain that without making a comment. May I be
13 allowed to comment?
14 Q. Tell us, please, which command post did you [redacted] go to
15 which was set up in a private house nearby? That means nearby the hotel
16 and park.
17 A. It was in fact a group of people who -- there was probably a
18 mistake in the translation. They were self-organised citizens. They were
19 a larger group of people, and we had decided that should an attack or
20 aggression of this kind take place on our town, that we were to meet up
21 there, and then to see what we were going to do next. And with respect to
22 the village of Prud --
23 Q. You said self-organised group of citizens. Is that what you said?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That self-organised group of citizens, was it armed with military
1 automatic rifles?
2 A. Some were, yes.
3 Q. The commander or commanding officer of that self-organised group
4 of citizens, was he Alija Fitozovic?
5 A. No. It was a group of narrow circle of my friends, and if you
6 want, I can give you their names. [redacted]-- Dasa Gibic, I mean.
7 Q. Could you give us the names for the record?
8 A. Yes. There was Gibic, Osman, nicknamed Semso. There were about
9 10 of us, 10 to 15 of us who were a group of friends that met up quite
10 often. We socialised.
11 Q. In addition to these people, were the Bicic brothers there too?
12 A. No. They were probably somewhere else, because they had a lot of
13 work at that time, so they weren't --
14 Q. May I take it they were not there, then? Is the answer no?
15 A. That's right, no.
16 Q. Your self-organised group of citizens, did it have a command of
17 any kind?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Can you tell me who determined this command post, as you refer to
21 A. There was probably an error in the translation. It was a
22 collection point. This "command post" was probably a mistake in the
23 translation, but it was the point that we had agreed to meet and that was
24 around Buco's Cafe where we would always stop by. That's where we would
25 go when we were socialising.
1 Q. This collection point or rallying point or whatever you like to
2 call it, can you state and confirm - or meeting point - that in the
3 call-up and the draft note that was sent out by the Secretariat for
4 National Defence, and in the military booklet, army booklet, when you were
5 mobilised, that the meeting point was designated in the draft note and the
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer, please?
8 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting to the
9 line of cross-examination or to the subject matter, but I don't quite
10 understand the question.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: What draft note sent out by the secretariat? And
13 are they saying that the meeting point, whatever this draft note was, was
14 Buco's Cafe? Is that the idea?
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we do need clarification.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: I just don't understand the question. I don't
17 object to the topic.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: The Secretariat for National Defence, which one?
19 The government one? If we can have clarification, if you can break up the
20 questions again.
21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I shall try to clear this point up
22 with the witness, Your Honour.
23 Q. Witness, you used the term "meeting point"?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So that self-organised group of citizens, or units --
1 A. Not unit, no.
2 Q. Very well. Group, then -- had determined a meeting point, and the
3 meeting point was in Buco's Cafe, is that right -- or rather, the cafe
4 belonging to Mesic, Osman, nicknamed Buco or Semso; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you had done your military service in the Yugoslav People's
7 Army and when you received your wartime assignment, in your military
8 booklet, in case of mobilisation, the members of the reserve formation of
9 the Yugoslav People's Army, as such, you had a certain meeting point to
10 which you were to report; is that right?
11 A. Well, I'm waiting for you to ask the question. Very well, my
12 answer is yes.
13 Q. Thank you. You further state that you tried to establish contact
14 with people whom you could trust and who were armed?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were those people the people who belonged to your self-organised
17 group of citizens?
18 A. Yes, yes. Some -- well, when we saw what was happening, we were
19 very glad to take anybody in who was willing to join us.
20 Q. Can you tell me whether at that meeting point -- how many people
21 responded and came to the meeting point?
22 A. Well, as you know the town, and as you know that it is in the
23 centre of town, surrounded by buildings, there were loads of people.
24 Q. How many? Ten? A hundred?
25 A. Well, maybe 50, 100. They would all flow down from the street
1 because it was a junction of four or six streets, so people were flowing
2 into the centre from the side streets.
3 Q. Would you agree with me, Mr. Salkic, that all this was happening
4 during the night, between the -- on the 17th of April, 1992, in the early
5 hours of the morning, in fact?
6 A. I just don't agree with the date. It was the night between the
7 16th and the 17th. So it wasn't the night of the 17th. It was the early
8 morning of the 17th, the early hours of the morning of the 17th of April.
9 Perhaps we didn't agree on that point, or I didn't hear you.
10 Q. I said on the 17th, in the early morning hours, and I used the
11 term "night" to mean darkness; it was still dark then.
12 A. Oh, yes. I understand. Right.
13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I think this would be an opportune
14 moment to take a break, Your Honours, perhaps.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: How many more minutes? Because you indicated
16 yesterday that an hour, and you had one hour and 15 minutes. How many
17 more minutes?
18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] About 30, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Because we are worried about completing Mr. Tihic
20 this week. So yes, I will allow you not one minute more. All right?
21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll do our best and
22 get through it within that time.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll have our break --
24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: -- and resume the proceedings at 11.30 hours.
1 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination is continuing.
4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Salkic, you said that around 5.00, you and Alijbegovic, Nedim
6 went to the bridge over the river Bosna "since we had a major HQ over the
7 river in Prud." Can we agree that that "major HQ," as it says in the
8 statement, was the command or headquarters of the Croatian army and
9 Croatian Defence Council in the Croatian village of Prud?
10 A. No, I don't agree with that. But let me clarify one point, and
11 then I could give you an affirmative answer after that.
12 Q. Go ahead, please.
13 A. It was not the Croatian component of the Croatian army, the army
14 from Croatia; it was, as I heard it, a Crisis Staff, and probably it was
15 composed of Muslims and Croats.
16 Q. Thank you. When you arrived at the bridge, on the embankment you
17 came across a patrol of the 4th Detachment; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What were the members of the 4th Detachment patrol wearing?
20 A. They were wearing the SMB olive-green/grey uniforms of the
21 Yugoslav army, the Yugoslav People's Army of the day.
22 Q. Did they prevent you from crossing the bridge?
23 A. At first, no, but when I started to move towards -- move on the
24 bridge, then they shot at me, those same people from the 4th Detachment.
25 So let me clarify this question in order to be able to give you a yes or
1 no answer. They did not prevent me going on the bridge, but afterwards
2 they shot at me.
3 Q. That's the question that I was going to ask you.
4 A. Well, I apologise, then.
5 Q. Did the members of this patrol, including Trivo and two other
6 members, did they shoot at you?
7 A. I cannot say with certainty, because from that direction and from
8 the left-hand side, the shots were coming at me while I was on the bridge.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters please ask the witness
10 and counsel to speak into the microphone. Thank you.
11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. May we then take it that you're not sure --
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can you speak into the microphone, please.
14 The interpreters are having difficulties.
15 And the witness can have his chair pushed toward the microphones,
17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Do you know an agreement -- about an agreement reached in the
19 local community of Samac, according to which the members of the 4th
20 Detachment were to patrol the embankment around the town of Samac?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you. You make mention of some bunkers on the left-hand side
23 of the bridge and some snipers' nests. Can we take it that that is one
24 and the same thing?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell us more or less how far those snipers' nests were
2 away from the bridge over the Bosna River?
3 A. Yes, I can.
4 Q. Were they 500 metres away? Did the witness say yes or no?
5 A. No. The distance, it was 300 to 350 metres away at the most.
6 Q. Thank you. Did you see the snipers' nests yourself, or did you
7 notice them when the firing started from them?
8 A. Well, I knew about them from before, because those snipers' nests
9 were set up five or six days beforehand, and I learnt about them five to
10 six days before.
11 Q. The snipers' nests, were they on the embankment, or in the fields?
12 A. In the fields.
13 Q. When you crossed into Prud, where did you go to? Did you -- yes,
14 go ahead.
15 A. I went to the centre of the village.
16 Q. Did you come across Alija Fitozovic there, the Chief of Staff of
17 the TO and commander of the party unit?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, I'm just a bit
20 concerned about the question and the answer there and what precisely the
21 witness is agreeing to. There has been evidence that Alija Fitozovic was
22 Chief of Staff of the TO, and I think this witness has said that he held
23 some command position in the TO, but Mr. Pisarevic went on to put a second
24 limb to the question, that he was commander of the party unit, and I don't
25 think this witness, from what I recall from his evidence -- from what I
1 recall of his evidence, has said anything about party units. And I don't
2 know which party; I assume the SDA. And so it's that second aspect of the
3 question that troubles me, and I don't know what the witness is agreeing
4 to, both the things, that he was Chief of Staff of the TO and commander of
5 the party unit, or only one or whatever. And it's important to know
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Or that he came across Fitozovic, yes. There are
8 three parts.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, or that he came across. It's not the coming
10 across that concerned me. It's what he is agreeing to about Alija
11 Fitozovic. Is he agreeing that he was Chief of Staff and commander of the
12 party unit? That, I don't know.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure the witness has heard and the witness can
14 explain his answer.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I answered in the affirmative
16 to the part of the question of whether I had seen Mr. Alija Fitozovic
17 there. As to the positions he held, I can't confirm that. That is to
18 say, I can confirm that he was in the command, whether he was the Chief of
19 Staff or whatever in the legal institution and officially in the TO.
20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. You said that in Prud, you received a Motorola; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell me whether you saw a motorised column of military
24 vehicles in Prud on the occasion?
25 A. No.
1 Q. With Alija Fitozovic, the Chief of Staff of the TO of Samac, did
2 you, together with him, try to return to Bosanski Samac?
3 A. Yes. And I succeeded in crossing, whereas Mr. Fitozovic, from the
4 shooting at the bridge, did not succeed. I don't know whether he did
5 later on or not.
6 Q. May we take it, then, that you returned to Bosanski Samac at about
7 8.00 on the 17th of April, 1992?
8 A. I think it was quite a bit earlier than that, actually.
9 Q. While you were in Prud, did you hear an announcement over the
10 radio, Radio Samac, calling upon the citizens to surrender their weapons,
11 which -- if they possessed any illegal weapons?
12 A. I think I heard that when I had returned to Samac.
13 Q. Did you, with the Motorola you had, call units of the Croatian
14 army from the Republic of Croatia and the Croatian Defence Council from
15 Prud to come to assist the town of Samac?
16 A. Once again for me to say yes or no, I have to explain, I have to
17 comment. I have to comment the titles and names of those formations, if I
19 Q. Well, tell me if you called any of them or not.
20 A. It wasn't the Croatian army, nor was it the HVO. It was still the
21 legal -- the legal unit, either of the TO or the local community which
22 existed in that village, the village of Prud.
23 Q. May we agree, then, that you used your Motorola to call members --
24 to call up members of the units of the Prud local community to come to the
25 assistance of people in the town of Samac?
1 A. Yes. I explained the situation to them. I tried to contact --
2 come into contact with them.
3 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Do you know that Alija
4 Fitozovic, the Chief of Staff of the TO, returned to Samac, Bosanski
5 Samac, across the bridge on the river Bosna, at about 10.00 on the 17th of
6 April, 1992?
7 A. I was to learn about that only when I was exchanged, later on,
8 when I was exchanged.
9 Q. That means that you were not aware of the fact that Alija
10 Fitozovic, as Chief of Staff of the TO, took over the command of members
11 of the unit which was located in the town of Bosanski Samac?
12 A. No.
13 Q. What you're saying is that you don't know that the -- that means
14 that you don't know that the demarcation line in the town of Bosanski
15 Samac existed?
16 A. Well, that's right, because I still moved around town, and I know
17 where the different units were, the formations of the 4th Detachment and
18 the special forces that we call them, the Chetniks, who were in
19 collaboration with the 4th Detachment and the police.
20 Q. That means, if I understood you correctly, that in that part of
21 town, freely and unimpeded, the members of the Territorial Defence could
22 move around, and the self-organised citizens of Samac municipality. Is
23 that what you're saying?
24 A. Well, whether they were allowed to move around freely or not, I
25 don't know, but they could move around.
1 Q. Thank you. Did you, on that particular day, talk by telephone
2 with Safet Hadzialijagic, the president of the local community of the
3 Samac municipality?
4 A. I don't recall that specific detail, but I did have some telephone
6 Q. Very well. I'll go on to that. On that particular day, did you
7 talk to Mr. Sulejman Tihic, who was the president of the SDA of the
8 municipal board of Bosanski Samac municipality?
9 A. On that day, I absolutely did not talk to Mr. Sulejman, nor did I
10 see him at all.
11 Q. Tell me, please: Can you confirm that you talked over the
12 telephone with Mr. Simo Zaric?
13 A. No. But I was present when Mr. Pero Vasiljevic talked to him, and
14 he received a telephone number from him, and later on we were to talk to
15 some other people using that number.
16 Q. Did you have a telephone conversation with Lieutenant Colonel
17 Nikolic, the commander of the 17th Tactical Group?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you agree with me that on that occasion, the commander of the
20 17th Tactical Group, Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic, told you that all the
21 people should disperse, should go home, and that they should surrender
22 their weapons and hand them in to the army when the time comes?
23 A. Yes, he told me that, but also -- well, I won't comment. I'll
24 just give you an affirmative answer.
25 Q. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
1 A. Perhaps you'll go on to ask the question that I was going to
2 comment on.
3 Q. Can we agree that a large number of the members of the defence and
4 self-organised citizens group, after that, went home and dispersed, in
5 fact? Would you agree with that?
6 A. Well, some did, others didn't. And if I may make a comment, I
7 could expand to give you a yes or no answer.
8 Q. What do you mean percentages, a percentage of the people?
9 A. Well, some people took stock of the situation and went across the
10 Sava River, some swam across, some went across in boats, whereas it is
11 true that others acted as Mr. Nikolic advised them to.
12 Q. You yourself remained in Bosanski Samac, did you not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You have said that you were arrested on the 18th of April, 1992 in
15 front of your own home.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You also said that at that moment, some armed people turned up.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that they told you to go outside. That was all?
20 A. No. There were some threats as well. Let's take it point by
21 point. They told me to come out without any weapons, to leave my weapons
22 behind, to --
23 Q. Did they ask you to raise your hands up above your head?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did they say that if you failed to do so, that they would
1 shell your house? Is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who were the people who told you to do that?
4 A. They were the members of the 4th Detachment.
5 Q. Which of the members of the 4th Detachment? Alija
6 [as interpreted] Topcagic? I'm sure not everybody addressed you. Who
7 addressed you personally?
8 A. Well, on both sides, but the loudest among them was Fadil and
9 Cvikan, Cvikan Tesic.
10 Q. Mr. Salkic, I'm sure you'll agree that not everybody said those
11 words to you, not all at once.
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Can you tell me who exactly addressed those words to you?
14 A. Fadil and Cvikan Tesic, once, and the second time -- you must let
15 me comment, you see. If you let me comment on my answers, then I'll be
16 clearer. You must let me do that.
17 Q. Very well. Was there a police vehicle of any kind?
18 A. Well, the police car came a little later on.
19 Q. How much later?
20 A. Well, half a minute, a minute, two minutes. There were two
21 soldiers in the police car; not policemen, but soldiers.
22 Q. Were they members of a paramilitary formation of any kind?
23 A. Well, as I was to learn later on, because I think the gentleman
24 was a lieutenant or something like that and he said that he was a member
25 of the Yugoslav People's Army. He introduced himself, and he said that I
1 shouldn't worry much, that they would take me to the SUP in safety.
2 Q. Did that same individual whom you refer to as "lieutenant" tell
3 you that Lugar was their man?
4 A. I don't remember them having said that at that particular moment.
5 Q. Not at that moment. I'm not asking you about then, but at the
6 time they took the package from you which you were carrying on orders from
8 A. Now, that's the second time that I was in the vehicle, so if I may
9 once again make a clarification. Let me describe the situation to you
10 briefly, how I came to find myself in the vehicle for the second time.
11 Q. Yes. You've already described that. Thank you. But you also
12 said that in taking the package from you, he said, "Lugar is our man."
13 A. Yes. When I said -- just a moment, please. When I said that
14 Lugar had told me that it belonged to Lugar and that I was to take it to
15 the MUP or SUP, and they said they would take it over and that he was
16 their man. That's how it was.
17 Q. During your incarceration, did you see those two men?
18 A. Yes, one of them.
19 Q. Was he a member of the police force or perhaps the special units,
20 special forces?
21 A. The one in the Golf car, the lieutenant, if you mean the
22 lieutenant, he even came to visit me once in the barracks at Brcko where
23 he told me where my wife and children -- child were and that they were
24 alive and well.
25 Q. Thank you. Did those two men hand you over to the SUP, to Stevan
1 Todorovic and Dragan Djurdjevic, nicknamed Crni, there?
2 A. I don't know which one - let's clarify this point - because I
3 actually met them three times, twice at the SUP and once in the street.
4 Q. On the morning of the 18th when you were arrested, that's what I'm
5 asking you about.
6 A. Yes, they handed me over. First, when they took me to SUP, they
7 took me into the office there, as I described. And I knew Stevan, he was
8 there, and I was to learn who Crni was later on, that other one.
9 Q. Thank you. Tell me this: With members of the 4th Detachment, you
10 collected weapons, did you not?
11 A. I have to tell you just briefly.
12 Q. Give us a yes or no answer, please.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Did all the citizens turn in -- turn over their
15 weapons and leave them in front of their flats, houses, yards and so on?
16 A. I can't confirm that, because I don't know. But a number of
17 citizens did turn in their weapons.
18 Q. Did the members of the 4th Detachment enter flats and houses and
19 search the premises?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you tell me where?
22 A. Well, precisely where your legal offices are, at Lajbi and Mirza.
23 And I can describe that detail too. I can also describe the fact that
24 they went into the house of -- I think it was Tihic's house, opposite your
25 law offices.
1 Q. Just a moment, please. I'm asking you about the members of the
2 4th Detachment, the members of the 4th Detachment.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honour pleases, the witness was
4 saying --
5 A. Yes, I said yes.
6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] That means yes. Thank you very
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. di Fazio?
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I wasn't following this aspect of the question. I
10 thought the witness was saying members of the 4th Detachment went into
11 Mr. Tihic's house.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, he said that. Yes.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I'll withdraw my objection. I just wasn't
14 following the evidence at that time. Perhaps it was my mistake.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Counsel can continue.
16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Do you agree that members of the 4th Detachment, when they were
18 gathering up weapons, did not loot the apartments and homes where you were
19 and according to what you saw?
20 A. I was there, and I can say no. Now, what was happening behind me
21 down there, I can't vouch for that, but I did not see that happen.
22 Q. I'm asking you only about what you saw. Would you agree that in
23 addition to the members of the 4th Detachment, the citizens too wore white
24 armbands on their left shoulder?
25 A. Yes. And I was one of them.
1 Q. And you had been given a white armband; is that true?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In this collection drive for weapons, did Pasaga take part?
4 A. Well, he stayed behind down there somewhere. I don't know what
5 happened to him later, but at one point we were together.
6 Q. Your parents throughout the war stayed on in Samac, and they were
7 not incarcerated; is that right?
8 A. No, they weren't incarcerated, but they were evicted from their
10 Q. That's a different matter, but they weren't incarcerated?
11 A. No.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel repeat his question, please?
13 Could counsel repeat that question?
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, could you repeat the question you asked?
15 The interpreters didn't pick it up.
16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Your brother, Ahmed Salkic, nicknamed Salko, was also in Samac and
18 was not incarcerated; is that right?
19 A. Yes. But he had a work assignment, compulsory labour.
20 Q. Thank you. Can we agree that at the SUP in Samac, about 50
21 Muslims from Bosanski Samac were incarcerated until the 24th of April?
22 A. Yes, something like that.
23 Q. Can we agree that these were mostly those who had illegally
24 obtained weapons?
25 A. Well, again, I have to comment. There were those who did, and
1 there were also those who didn't.
2 Q. Would you agree with me that many Muslims and Croats were released
3 from detention?
4 A. No, I don't agree.
5 Q. Are you aware of the fact that members of the 4th Detachment who
6 were Muslims were released?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Milos Savic was then the chief of
9 the crime unit of the police station in Bosanski Samac from the 17th of
10 April on?
11 A. I don't know whether he was the chief, but yes, he did perform the
12 job of an investigator.
13 Q. How and where did Mr. Zaric tell you that for security reasons, he
14 would move you?
15 A. He told me this upstairs in the office. And as I stated, I
16 thanked him for that, and I would hear -- I was to hear it again when
17 leaving the SUP or going in.
18 Q. What did you hear on that occasion?
19 A. Somebody asked him -- and Sulejman and Dragan and others were
20 there. I can't remember every detail, but, of course, we wanted to know
21 what was going on. We saw there was -- there were murders. So some
22 people asked him; so did I. I looked at him, although he told me a few
23 details before, and he told me we were going to a safer place.
24 Q. Thank you. Could this have been heard by the other people who
25 were there with you?
1 A. Well, maybe two or three or maybe even more of them, because it
2 wasn't too loud.
3 Q. When you said Sulejman and Dragan, were you referring to Dragan
4 Lukac, Sulejman Tihic?
5 A. Well, maybe Dragan Delic or Dragan Mirin, I don't know, but there
6 were people there. As I said, we were going in. Many had already arrived
7 before me.
8 Q. Was Sulejman Tihic there?
9 A. I think he was there very close to Simo.
10 MR. PISAREVIC: I would like to ask the usher to show the witness
11 his statement which he made on the 10th of March, 1995 -- 1998, sorry. We
12 also have the English version. And if he would only read the second
13 paragraph on page 4.
14 Q. Just slowly.
15 A. Yes, I'll read it. "Simo Zaric saved my life and the lives of 36
16 others when he sent to us Brcko. The conditions in the camp in Bosanski
17 Samac had then become so bad that I'm sure that we would have been killed
18 if we had not been transferred."
19 Q. Would you agree that you made this statement of your own free
20 will? And do you still maintain that Simo Zaric saved the -- your life
21 and the lives of other detainees in the Samac Territorial Defence?
22 A. Well, if you want, I will confirm this, but let me comment. I'll
23 say yes. That's my opinion.
24 Q. Thank you. You said, however, that Simo Zaric accompanied you
25 during that transfer. Did you see him when you arrived in Brcko or not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Yes or no?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So you saw him. What were the conditions like in detention in
6 A. Quite a bit better than in Bosanski Samac.
7 Q. In your statement, you said that there they beat you and you were
8 not allowed to cry.
9 A. Yes. I don't mean cry. I meant yell or scream.
10 Q. Very well, scream.
11 A. I can explain that too, because it's clear to me now why.
12 Q. Please pay attention. Who, in your sight, from the group that
13 arrived from Samac, was beaten in the Brcko barracks?
14 A. You mean apart from me? Because I was beaten there.
15 Q. I'll ask you about that later.
16 A. Well, [redacted], Dragan Lukac. They were taken out into the
17 corridor one by one, and we were able to see. I can't remember all their
18 names now.
19 Q. Well, you see, Mr. Salkic, Mr. Lukac testified here before this
20 Tribunal, and in his testimony --
21 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I object.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. di Fazio?
23 MR. DI FAZIO: What possible value can this question have? I
24 assume that Mr. Pisarevic is on his way now to put to the witness
25 something Mr. Lukac said in evidence on a previous occasion, at an earlier
1 time. What can this witness say about that? What can he say about what
2 Lukac said or didn't say or what motivated Lukac to say or did not say in
3 his evidence? He's being asked to comment on what another man said, and
4 he just can't, because he wasn't there, for a start, and he doesn't
5 know -- he can't possibly know why -- the reasons that Lukac mentions or
6 doesn't mention various things. Mr. Pisarevic is perfectly free at a
7 later time, if he wishes, to point to differences in witnesses. I'm not
8 trying to stop him from doing that. But to ask Mr. Salkic to explain why
9 did Lukac say that on an earlier occasion, or to confront him with it,
10 serves no purpose.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's not the practice here. That's not the
12 practice, Mr. Pisarevic.
13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Then I withdraw my question.
14 Q. Very well. Would you agree with me that the conditions as regards
15 washing facilities, going outside to do some work within the barracks
16 compound, the way you were treated, et cetera, were considerably better,
17 and that, in a manner of speaking, you recuperated while you were staying
19 A. Well, we did not go out, but the conditions as such were better.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, your half hour is long, long gone. Wind
21 up, please.
22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am approaching the
23 end, but my learned friend has taken away some of my time. I did not
24 count on that.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Actually, I allowed you even breathing time.
1 Please wind up.
2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. You said in your statement that Simo Zaric -- as for Tihic and
4 others, Zaric and Omeragic, that he took them from the Brcko barracks,
5 that he took them away somewhere. Did you see this? Did you see Simo
6 Zaric driving them off from the barracks in Brcko?
7 A. Simo Zaric was there at the barracks, and when the names of these
8 men were called out, they left, and we were to learn the other details
9 later on. So I did see Simo at the barracks, and then we concluded it was
10 he who took them away. But whether he was actually driving, I cannot
11 confirm that.
12 Q. [No interpretation]
13 A. Yes. He was there with a captain who was there at the barracks.
14 Q. You testified - and that is something you mentioned for the first
15 time here in this courtroom - that you saw Mr. Simo Zaric in front of the
16 SUP building in Bosanski Samac when the Red Cross came.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When was this? Can you tell us the month or ...
19 A. Well, it was towards the end of September, the end of September or
20 perhaps the very beginning of October.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting to the
22 topic, of course. It's a proper matter. There's just something that
23 concerns me about the question by Mr. Pisarevic a few points back. He
24 said, "This is something you mentioned for the first time here in the
25 courtroom," and then went on to say that, "You saw Mr. Simo Zaric in front
1 of the SUP building in Bosanski Samac," and the witness said, "Yes." Now,
2 that's going to come across in evidence as agreement to two things: number
3 one, that he saw Simo Zaric in front of the SUP building; that doesn't
4 concern me. But number two, that he's mentioned it for the first time
5 here in Court.
6 Now, Mr. Pisarevic has received all of our correspondence and all
7 of our documentation and has received various notes made by this witness,
8 including some made earlier this year, and will know, therefore, that the
9 earlier part of the question cannot be true. And that's what I'm
10 concerned about, that you will be left with the impression that the first
11 time Simo Zaric was ever mentioned by this witness in front of the SUP
12 building was here in court, and I think Mr. Pisarevic is armed with
13 certain material that will indicate that that's not so.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure counsel have understood the point of the
16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, I have
17 understood. My standpoint, however, is that the notes made by the
18 Prosecution are not a witness statement. I said very clearly that
19 Mr. Salkic, in his first statement, made from the 7th to the 9th of
20 February, 1995, and the one of the 10th of March, 1998, did not mention
21 the presence of Simo Zaric in front of the SUP building in Bosanski Samac
22 in the presence of members of the Red Cross, and that's why I put this
24 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. At first -- yes.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no objection to that question. I think
1 that's fine.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That explains it, yes.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no problem. Yes. As long as the witness is
4 clear. But otherwise that other impression that I mentioned would be, I
5 think, incorrect.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the counsel has corrected the
8 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got no problem with that question at all.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: And the witness can go ahead and answer.
10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Why, in your two earlier statements, did you not mention this
13 A. Well, everybody has the right to recall some things sooner and
14 some things later, or to consider some things not important or important.
15 Q. To conclude: You recalled this at a later stage?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you, while you were there in that attic, looking out of that
18 window, see -- or rather, were you able to see distinctly who was in front
19 of the SUP building, all the people there?
20 A. Well, I never mentioned things I wasn't sure of, and when I was
21 sure about something, I described it.
22 Q. But, Mr. Salkic, Mr. Zaric says he was never in front of the SUP
23 building in the presence of members of the Red Cross.
24 A. I saw him. What his role was, whether he was there in an official
25 capacity dealing with the Red Cross or not, that's something I cannot say,
1 but he was there in front of the SUP building, and as far as I could
2 follow him with my eyes, he was there. Whether he went in, whether there
3 was someone else there tasked with the duty of receiving them, that's
4 something I cannot say.
5 Q. You mentioned the commander of the public security station,
6 Mr. Stoko.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In your view, in the situation you were in, did he contact the Red
9 Cross representatives who arrived?
10 A. As I see it, yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have completed my
13 cross-examination, and I do apologise for this.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, before you sit down, a question for
15 clarification from the Bench.
16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes. Mr. Pisarevic, in one of your questions to
17 the witness, you mentioned that the Serbian Orthodox church was demolished
18 on 27th January 1992. I want to know whether the translation is correct.
19 "Demolished," to me, I understand that to mean, you know, razed to the
20 ground, similar to the pictures, the photographs we've seen of the mosque
21 and the Catholic church in Bosanski Samac. And I'm just a little
22 confused, because in those photographs we are seeing the Serbian Orthodox
23 church standing. So I wonder whether you could just clarify what you
24 meant by "demolished."
25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will explain this.
1 The Serbian Orthodox church you saw is still standing. It is the church
2 in the town of Samac, the Serbian Orthodox church. I was referring to a
3 house of worship which we called a church, which was on the Serbian
4 cemetery -- in the Serbian cemetery in the town of Samac. I might
5 describe this as a chapel, let us say, and/or a little church, a small
6 church. And this chapel was blown up with explosives, and it does not
7 exist there now.
8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: And maybe we can hear from the witness, Mr. Salkic,
10 whether he understood that to be the chapel and whether his answer is
11 consistent with the fact that you were referring to the chapel.
12 Mr. Salkic?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As regards the chapel in the Serbian
14 cemetery in Samac, it has not been destroyed. It was slightly damaged, as
15 I heard, because I passed by later on, and it still had a roof and doors
16 and windows, and it was there until the war broke out. I don't know what
17 happened later on. It was not destroyed. Whoever did that, it was only
18 partially damaged, not destroyed, because, as the gentleman said, it was a
19 month or two before the war broke out, and I passed there every day, and
20 the building was still standing, so it was not completely destroyed. And
21 whoever did this is certainly to blame, because even to damage such a
22 building is wrong. But that's my explanation.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you.
24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination by the Prosecution?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
2 Re-examined by Mr. di Fazio:
3 Q. In the period of time leading up to April 16, 1992, was this
4 Orthodox chapel, or small church, in a damaged but still-standing state?
5 A. Yes, it was damaged, but it was still standing. It's about
6 50 metres from the street, and you couldn't even see the damage from the
8 Q. Have you got any idea how the damage occurred? Was it a bomb or
9 damage inflicted in some other way?
10 A. I don't know anything about this event. I would like to be able
11 to tell you about it. Whoever did this to any house of worship, on his
12 head be it. It's a shameful thing to do. But at any rate, the building
13 was still there until the war broke out, with a roof on it, and it had all
14 the doors and the -- all the walls and the door that you can see from the
15 street. They say it was damaged; I didn't know this. I heard this here
16 for the first time.
17 Q. Thank you. I'm just going back now. I'm going to ask you to
18 clarify a number of things that you've said in your evidence, but I'm
19 working backwards, so I'm going to deal with things that you said this
20 morning in answer to Mr. Pisarevic's questions. Okay? We will just
21 clarify a few aspects of your answers.
22 Mr. Pisarevic asked you about your mentioning Simo Zaric being
23 outside the SUP building during the arrival of the Red Cross, and you
24 agreed that you hadn't mentioned that in your statements in 1995 and
25 1998. Did anyone else ask you about that episode before you came to
1 Holland, before you came to give evidence here in the Tribunal?
2 A. Yes. I made my statement, I don't know whether I should call it a
3 statement or what I should call it, but I told the gentlemen from the OTP
4 who came to talk to me and then I told them this.
5 Q. Where -- came to talk to you where?
6 A. In Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the town of Domaljevac.
7 Q. And who were the gentlemen who did that?
8 A. They were from the Tribunal. They were investigators.
9 Q. You were asked about conditions in Brcko, and you said that they
10 had -- they were an improvement on what you had -- on what you had endured
11 in the TO.
12 A. I can't hear very well. It's not loud enough.
13 Thank you. It's much better now.
14 Q. Now, I was asking you about conditions that Mr. Pisarevic asked
15 you about in Brcko, and you agreed that they were an improvement on what
16 you had faced in the TO. What about aspects of food, bedding, heating,
17 those sorts of things? Were they an improvement in that sense?
18 A. When I said that the conditions were considerably better, once or
19 twice we even received medical assistance, but unfortunately, they did not
20 stop beating us. We didn't have to stand and sing, because the town was
21 still free, and the barracks was in the centre of town, and we saw Muslim
22 civilians and Croat and Serb civilians, all the people living there,
23 walking around normally, and they still kept us detained in that barracks
24 in the centre of town. That's why, as I said, we were not allowed to yell
25 when we were beaten, because the civilians all around would have been able
1 to hear this. But all in all, the treatment was considerably better than
2 in Samac.
3 Q. Now, I know that your evidence is that you were incarcerated
4 throughout your period of time in Brcko, but was the question of possible
5 release so that you could join the Muslims and Croats walking around the
6 town of Brcko ever aired or discussed with any authorities, authorities in
8 A. The people who were transporting us to Brcko, they were the ones
9 who were able to decide whether they should release us or continue keeping
10 us in detention. Because this was a town in which fighting hadn't broken
11 out yet, because we could see this through the barracks fence. This gave
12 us some hope that we might be released there. But unfortunately, they
13 didn't do that.
14 Q. You mentioned, in answer to Mr. Pisarevic's questions to you, two
15 matters relating to your personal family: Firstly, the fact that your
16 brother was doing forced labour. Under what circumstances was he doing
17 that forced labour, and what sort of forced labour was he doing, and for
18 how long was he doing that forced labour?
19 A. Yes. My brother, whom Mr. Pisarevic mentioned, was, as they said,
20 under a work obligation. He had to go and cut timber in the woods. He
21 had to go and dig trenches at the front line. He had to do all the tasks
22 that were needed by the army at that time. That is something he had to do
23 without compensation, without remuneration. And I myself never received
24 remuneration for anything. When he got his second draft note and had to
25 go to the front line as a Serb soldier, he had some connections and he had
1 an ID made saying that he was a Serb, and he was able to cross over and
2 stay in a refugee camp with his wife and son until 1998.
3 Q. You mentioned that he had to do work in trenches, dig trenches on
4 the front line. Did he ever describe to you the extent of that work,
5 where the trenches were?
6 A. Yes. We often discussed it. He told me that he had to dig
7 trenches and then connecting trenches between the two lines, and many
8 people unfortunately lost their lives digging those trenches.
9 Q. And do you know where these front lines that he was digging these
10 trenches in?
11 A. He told me --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel?
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. This is
14 not an objection, but an intervention in the transcript. As I understood,
15 the witness said that his brother crossed over to Serbia with that ID, to
16 a refugee camp, and the word "Serbia" is not here in the transcript. So I
17 would like this to be clarified by counsel. That's page 61, line 7.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I thank counsel for those comments.
19 Q. Mr. Salkic, you just heard what counsel said. Did you say that,
20 in fact, your brother crossed over into Serbia?
21 A. Yes, I did say it.
22 Q. Now, my question was: Where were the front lines that your
23 brother was digging trenches?
24 A. Yes. It was between Gradacac and Samac, the village was called
25 Sibovac, and this is where he was taken most frequently by night, digging
1 trenches, dugouts and so on.
2 Q. You also mentioned, in answer to Mr. Pisarevic's questions about
3 your family, that your parents were evicted. Under what circumstances
4 were your parents evicted from their home?
5 A. Yes. My mother told me this, so did my father. Simply some Serbs
6 arrived from somewhere, Vudovar [phoen], Glamoc, I don't know. They
7 didn't allow them to take anything, even the smallest thing, with them.
8 They simply said, "This is no longer your house. Get out." I just have
9 to add that at the time, my father was about 68 or 69, and he was under a
10 work obligation from morning until night. He had to go and work, at his
12 Q. Was he paid?
13 A. No, no. Like all the others, he was not paid.
14 Q. Where did they go to live after they were evicted?
15 A. Not far. Next to my parents' house, there was another house
16 from -- where a relative was there, a Serb married to a Muslim, and they
17 put them up in a little shed in the yard. This was really a shed, rather
18 than a proper building. They gave them some things, and this is where
19 they spent the war.
20 Q. Where are they now, your parents?
21 A. My father has died. He died in 1998. And my mother is now in
22 Samac, in her own house, which she has got back. But let me add that the
23 house is badly damaged and that when she got it back, there was nothing in
24 it. None of the things were still there.
25 Q. When did she recover her house?
1 A. Yes. She recovered her house, I can't remember exactly, but I
2 think more than a year ago. It's been about 14, 15, maybe 16 months since
3 she got it back.
4 Q. You mentioned in evidence that citizens -- and you were referring
5 to the events surrounding the commencement of hostilities in Bosanski
6 Samac. You said that citizens wore white armbands and that you wore one
7 too. Now, you have already told the Chamber of the circumstances under
8 which you wore a white armband. What I'd like to know is who were these
9 citizens who wore white armbands, if you can tell us? And why did they
10 wear white armbands? And if you don't know, make sure that you tell the
12 A. Well, if I understood the question properly, you're thinking about
13 those from the 4th Detachment who were in uniform. Or were you referring
14 particularly to the citizens? Now, I saw few citizens in civilian
15 clothing with those white bands, arm bands, on, whereas all the soldiers,
16 the police and members of the 4th Detachment and the JNA formations who --
17 which were in town, they wore the bands.
18 Q. Now, the few citizens in civilian clothing who wore the white
19 armbands, can you tell us who they were? Were they locals? Were they
20 members of the 4th Detachment or not? Can you tell us what information
21 you have regarding those civilians in white armbands?
22 A. Well, I can't tell you much about that. I can just tell you what
23 I heard - now, I don't know if that's important - that they were those who
24 had already received various obligations, been given obligations, whether
25 labour obligations or others. First of all, for me and some of the other
1 civilians -- me and some of the other civilians didn't wear any armbands,
2 white armbands. It was only later that they would mark these people going
3 on their work assignment in that way. That's what I heard from others.
4 Q. I see. Now, right. Now I'm talking about your evidence when you
5 were answering Mr. Pisarevic's questions and you mentioned seeing
6 civilians with white armbands at about the time of the events of the
7 commencement of hostilities around the 16th and 17th. That's what I'm
8 concerned to know about. What white armbands did you see on civilians,
9 and who were these civilians?
10 A. Well, as far as I was able to see, they were Muslims, those
11 people, but it all happened on that first day while I was still at
13 Q. These Muslims that you saw wearing white armbands, can you tell us
14 if they were members of the 4th Detachment or not?
15 A. Well, no. Had they been in the 4th Detachment, they would have
16 worn them on their epaulettes, up on their shoulder. But the ones that
17 were wearing these armbands, they were marked like the Jews used to be
18 marked in World War II.
19 Q. How many of such civilians wearing white epaulettes -- or
20 armbands, rather, distinct from the epaulettes, the white epaulettes on
21 the shoulders? How many of such civilians did you see?
22 A. Well, I can state that there was me; [redacted]
23 [redacted]; there was Tihic; and perhaps one
24 or two others --
25 Q. Which Tihic?
1 A. -- at that time who were Muslims and who wore this white armband
2 on their arms and not up here. [redacted]
3 Q. You also gave evidence of a phone call to Mr. Zaric which was made
4 by a gentleman named Pero Vasiljevic and that that resulted in a
5 subsequent conversation that you had with Mr. Nikolic. Now, I'd like to
6 know about that episode, please. About what time was the conversation,
7 and on what day?
8 A. Well, that was the first day of the conflict, in the late
9 afternoon. We met round about some buildings, which is where I met
10 Vasiljevic, who was not in uniform. Otherwise, he's a Serb; he didn't
11 carry a weapon either. We talked just like any other citizen would, and
12 he suggested that he should go and see with Simo what was to be done
13 next. There was a man called Omeranovic there too. And that's how we got
14 to the telephone with Mr. Nikolic.
15 Q. How many of you were gathered at the telephone? Was it just you
16 and Pero, or were there a number of other men?
17 A. There were four to five, perhaps six other people there.
18 Q. From where was the phone call made?
19 A. Well, we telephoned from a flat. I think it belonged to
20 Omeranovic. I don't remember the name exactly.
21 Q. Presumably you didn't hear what Mr. Zaric was saying, but what was
22 Pero saying to him, from what you can recall?
23 A. Pero told us that Zaric had given us the number, and everything
24 else -- he explained everything else, and that we could address Colonel
1 Q. Do you recall what it was that Mr. Zaric -- what was reported to
2 you as having been explained over the phone by Mr. Zaric?
3 A. Well, Vasiljevic, actually, who called, told us that. He said we
4 should call up that number and that we would get all the information
5 there, what we were supposed to do next. And so we called up that number
6 later on and established contact with Nikolic.
7 Q. I see. Okay. And who spoke to Nikolic?
8 A. First of all, it was Mr. Vasiljevic who spoke to him, and he told
9 me later that I should talk to Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic, and I did. I
10 took the receiver from him and talked to Nikolic. I explained briefly
11 what was going on in town, that some people had already been killed and
12 that the paramilitary units or the 4th Detachment were rampant in town.
13 And I said that -- he said that I should tell the people that they weren't
14 to worry, that his army was already there, very close, and that the
15 citizens were to be cautioned to give up their weapons and to wait for
16 further instructions. That was the gist of that conversation.
17 Q. How did you react to that? What was your response?
18 A. Well, I said, "Mr. Nikolic, I hope you're not going to be like the
19 others here, killing the people," and he said that it wouldn't be like
21 Q. Thank you. You also mentioned in your evidence, in response to
22 Mr. Pisarevic's questions, that there was a meeting point at Buco's Cafe
23 and that you had been advised of this in some sort of military booklet. I
24 understood your evidence in respect of this episode to be that you had
25 been advised of this meeting point in a booklet that you got during your
1 military service. Is that a correct understanding or not?
2 A. No. In my military booklet, I had quite a different assignment.
3 It was an internal assignment of us friends, a sort of internal agreement
4 that there should be those 10 or 12 of us, a maximum of 15, who would see
5 each other every day; that if something of that kind would happen, that we
6 should meet in the centre of town, meet up there and then see what we were
7 going to do. I had no leaflet or pamphlet or military assignment or
8 anything of that kind. It was an internal agreement that we had decided
9 to do, should the need arise.
10 Q. And was the agreement -- did it involve meeting at Buco's Cafe in
11 the event of trouble?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So the meeting at Buco's Cafe was not ever part of any sort of
14 document or book or anything that you had from the years -- your military
15 service 20 years or so beforehand?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You were asked some -- quite a few questions by Mr. Pisarevic
18 regarding gathering of people in the park on the night of the commencement
19 of troubles, and you've given quite a bit of evidence about that,
20 including numbers of people. What I want to know is this: Was it a fluid
21 situation in respect of the people, in the sense that people were coming
22 and going, rather than an assembly of a fixed group of people? That's
23 what I want you to comment on.
24 A. Yes. It wasn't a fixed group. People would come and go. Some
25 came to see what was going on. They heard the shooting down there. So it
1 wasn't any kind of fixed gathering; it was just people who had heard
2 something and they would go off somewhere else. We didn't spend too much
3 time there. We didn't stay there long. I don't know. Maybe some people
4 came later on too, but after some 15 or 20 minutes, I myself left and went
6 Q. You've mentioned that you had this internal arrangement with your
7 friends to meet at Buco's Cafe. Did that fact eventuate? Did that
8 internal agreement kick into action and did all the people turn up, as
9 planned, at Buco's Cafe?
10 A. No. No. No. It wasn't even close to what we were thinking
11 about. But some turned up. Most of them didn't. But there were two,
12 three, four of us. And it's only 200 metres away, or 300 metres from the
13 park, from one side of the park to the other. You just walk across the
14 park, and you're in front of that cafe.
15 Q. Thank you. You were asked about a fleur-de-lis insignia that you
16 had, a patch. Mr. Pisarevic asked you if you wore it on one occasion.
17 I'm sorry. My apologies. I misquote the evidence. You answered in
18 response to a question that you wore the patch on one occasion. Do I take
19 it it was a one-off situation when you wore the patch, or did you take to
20 wearing it as a matter of habit?
21 A. No. It was a one-off. I only had it once. But it was a legal
22 sign of the Territorial Defence, so that even if I had continued to wear
23 it, it was nothing illegal, not something that was contrary to the law.
24 Because as of some date - I don't know which - it was the emblem of the
25 Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pisarevic asked you whether Mr. Simo Zaric had
2 displayed a national -- tolerance of national and ethnic affiliations, and
3 you said, "Yes, up until a point." And he asked you whether Mr. Zaric had
4 displayed political tolerance, and you said, "As of late, yes." Those
5 answers seem qualified, and I'd like to know why you qualify those answers
6 by saying that his tolerance in national and ethnic affiliation only went
7 up to a point and that his political tolerance was existent as of late.
8 That's not the most elegantly asked question, but I hope I make my meaning
9 clear. Please let me know if it's not clear to you. Okay?
10 A. Well, yes. I doubt that I would have answered it that way. What
11 I said was yes, but in recent times, no. So prior to the war, the month
12 or month and a half before the war, this division had started, the
13 separation had started. They were no longer this or that man, Simo or me,
14 or what we were once. We weren't the same people we once were, because it
15 was simple: If you weren't with them, you were against them.
16 Q. Yes. I understand. Thank you. I want you now -- I want to turn
17 now to the evidence of Mr. Pantelic -- sorry, the questioning by
18 Mr. Pantelic. In questions asked by Mr. Pantelic regarding movements of
19 prisoners, you said that a number of prisoners were returned from -- were
20 returned from Bijeljina to Bosanski Samac, and you mentioned some names.
21 You mentioned Hadzialagic, Bicic Muhamed, Bicic Tabakovic, Sulejman, and
22 Safet Hadzialijagic. You mentioned Mr. Sulejman Tihic -- I assume that
23 was a reference to Sulejman Tihic. Is that correct?
24 A. No, no. Sulejman Tabakovic, and Sulejman Tihic, Dragan Lukac,
25 Sead Mujkanovic, they had been transferred by helicopter before that.
1 They had been taken to Serbia. It was Sulejman Tabakovic, nicknamed
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. May the witness be shown his B/C/S
4 statement? It's been marked for identification. I don't have the number
5 with me at the moment.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Which one?
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, the B/C/S and the English.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: For which year?
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, 1995.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Does he have them? Can the usher check
11 whether the witness has got the --
12 THE REGISTRAR: I need to have a number, Your Honour, to get the
13 document, but I don't think it has been submitted yet.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: No, it was just referred to as a statement.
15 MR. PANTELIC: If I may be of assistance, Your Honour, the
16 witness, he has in front of him one copy of this B/C/S version. Maybe we
17 can just make a reference to the page.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, perhaps I could just leave
19 this question at the moment because I need to be certain about the
20 numbers, and I think it's important that we have it in the transcript. I
21 had hoped to finish by 1.00. I'm not going to, but I'll be finishing
22 shortly thereafter, very shortly thereafter. Perhaps if I just continue
23 on with another topic, and later I'll return to this questioning, if I
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: It might be quicker if we do things that way.
2 Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, I have some
4 problems. I would like to leave the courtroom for a minute. I'm very
5 pressed. May I leave the courtroom, please? May I be excused?
6 JUDGE MUMBA: We can adjourn. It's about 1.00. We will adjourn
7 and resume our proceedings at 1530 hours.
8 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.59 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination by the Prosecution.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Can the witness please be shown D10/2 ter ID. That's the B/C/S
5 1998 version of his statement, please. Thank you.
6 Q. And Mr. Salkic, I just want to ask you this: That is the 1998
7 version of your statement in B/C/S. Now, look at the pages, at the bottom
8 of the pages. Do you see your signature, or indeed anyone's signature,
9 anywhere on that document?
10 A. No, not here.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'd like to have marked for
12 identification the English version of that statement. Now, the witness
13 doesn't speak English or read English, and I'd just like to have it marked
14 for identification.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it can be marked for identification.
16 Can we have the number for identification purposes only.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D10/2.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm not sure if an English version was
19 provided to the --
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. The Registrar was provided with the English
21 version as well, yes, and it was on the ELMO while we were cross-examining
22 the witness.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to Mr. Zecevic for pointing that out,
24 and now I can assume that it has been formally marked. And just for the
25 sake of completeness, could the English version please be quickly produced
1 to Mr. Salkic.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: I see Mr. Pantelic. Yes.
3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Madam President. If our learned colleague
4 would be so kind to explain what is the purpose of this kind of
5 questioning, this line of questioning with this statement, so that we know
6 what is the final aim, and then, with your permission, I would like to
7 have the floor for us, several words. Thank you.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Sure. There was reasonably extensive
9 cross-examination of this witness by both Mr. Pantelic and also
10 Mr. Zecevic regarding the statements - who made them, the truthfulness of
11 the statements, and so on - and I'm trying to ascertain from the witness
12 what precisely is his statement and what may not be his statement. I
13 don't know. It depends on the evidence of the witness. Now, I've got a
14 certain statement that is signed and others that are conspicuously not,
15 and that's what I'm trying to --
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, you are limiting your re-examination to the
17 matters raised in cross-examination?
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: I hope so. Okay.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if the Chamber is troubled, I can take you to
21 the points, I think, in the evidence where he was questioned about it.
22 That's the sole purpose of my -- of this line of questioning.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Then go ahead.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. That's all I'm trying to establish.
25 So if the witness could -- thank you. If the witness could now be
1 given -- quickly given the English version of the 1998 statement that has
2 just been marked for identification. I'm sorry. The witness has it,
3 Mr. Usher?
4 THE USHER: Yes.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
6 Q. Just quickly look at that. Can you see your signature or anyone
7 else's signature on that document?
8 A. No, again no.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, would you please look at these two statements.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: And I don't believe that these have been produced
11 or marked for identification, if Your Honours please and if members of the
12 Defence please. I'm referring to the 1995 statements.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, okay.
14 MR. DI FAZIO:
15 Q. Now, would you please look at these two documents that I provide
16 to you, Mr. Salkic, please. Firstly look at -- one is obviously in
17 English, and I doubt that you'll be able to read that, but the other one
18 is in B/C/S. Please have a look at the B/C/S version.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we can mark them for identification only.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Perhaps the B/C/S version can be marked for
22 JUDGE MUMBA: And the English translation.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: And the English translation, of course.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: When it comes to documents, whether marked for
25 identification purposes only or marked as exhibits, they should have both,
1 because the official language is English.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Certainly, Your Honour. I was going to do
3 that, but later when I dealt with it. But perhaps it's more convenient
4 now to give them both identification numbers, the 1995 B/C/S version and
5 the 1995 English version.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: If they have not already been marked, can we have
7 the numbers? Maybe they were.
8 THE REGISTRAR: They have not been marked. The B/C/S document
9 will be marked Prosecution Exhibit P33 ter ID and the English version
10 P33 ID.
11 MR. DI FAZIO:
12 Q. All right. Please look at the B/C/S version, Mr. Salkic, Exhibit
13 P33 ter ID. Now, simple question: Do you see your signature or anyone
14 else's signature on that document?
15 A. Here, no.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, look at the English version of the 1995
17 statement, please. That's Exhibit P33 ID. Now, do you see signatures on
18 that document?
19 A. Yes. There are three signatures here. Mr. Ole, to whom I gave
20 the statement, Mr. Fiser, and my signature.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, quickly flick through the pages - you won't have
22 to spend long on that - and you'll see three signatures at the bottom of
23 each page. Do you recognise those signatures?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. Are they the same person's signatures?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, on the last page - you probably won't be able to
3 read the English - but do you see a last signature and a date? You
4 probably won't be able to read the date, but at least do you see a
5 signature at the top of the page? Is that yours? Very last page, last
6 page of the statement. It's numbered page 13.
7 A. Yes. Here it is, up here. That's my signature.
8 Q. Okay. All right. Now, thank you. Finally, if you would now,
9 please, go to the B/C/S version so that you can read, and again go to the
10 page 13, or the last signed page. At the top there are the words "Witness
11 Acknowledgement." Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And your signature just immediately underneath; is that right?
14 A. On the English version here, I do see it, not on my version here.
15 Q. That's exactly the point that I'm trying to make. You see it on
16 the English version but not on your B/C/S version; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Usher. I've
19 finished with those documents.
20 Q. The situation therefore is --
21 MR. DI FAZIO: May I just interrupt my questioning? Have these
22 not been marked for identification?
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Only the ones marked for identification, but copies
24 are usually retained by the Registry assistant for the archives only.
25 They are not part of the record.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you very much.
2 Q. Now, you've given evidence that you didn't sign the 1998
3 statement, and of the 1995 statement, you only signed the English
4 version. That's your evidence. Okay?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you explain -- do you know -- can you account for that? Do
7 you know how it was that that's the way things turned out? If you don't
8 know, just say so, but if you do know, let us know.
9 A. Well, I don't know. Or when the interviews with me were held, the
10 version that was taken down was in English. The interpreter read it back
11 to me, and I signed it.
12 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. Did that exercise -- what you
13 just described, the interpreter reading it back, you signing it, did that
14 exercise occur in respect of the 1998 versions?
15 A. I think so, yes.
16 Q. All right.
17 A. There was no translation into Bosnian, but of course, the
18 interpreter read it back to me in Bosnian. But there was no version in
19 the Bosnian language.
20 Q. All right. Thank you for your assistance on that topic,
21 Mr. Salkic.
22 Now, Mr. Zecevic asked you some questions. He asked you about the
23 firearms law that existed in the former Yugoslavia and whether your
24 possession of Kalashnikov rifles violated any laws back then. In the
25 period of time leading up to April of 1992, can you tell the Chamber, if
1 you know, and only if you know, whether the police were enforcing firearm
2 possession laws?
3 A. I wasn't able to explain to the gentleman that from the 31st of
4 March on, after the referendum, the law of the Federal Republic of
5 Yugoslavia was no longer valid in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the
6 gentleman asked me about this. Whether the police enforced the law as it
7 was then in Bosnia, that's something I couldn't say.
8 Q. Thinking back now to that period of time, in the weeks leading up
9 to the 16th and 17th of April, 1992, were you concerned about whether or
10 not the police would find you in possession of a Kalashnikov? Was it a
11 worry that troubled you?
12 A. Well, yes and no. On the one hand, yes; on the other, no.
13 Because I'd had sufficient opportunity to observe people carrying weapons
14 openly, those from the 4th Detachment, and the police did nothing about
15 it, so I could say I wasn't really worried about my Kalashnikov.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: I was wondering what the point of this question is.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: My question or the --
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the question you posed, whether he was worried
19 about being found or seen by the police or whether the police were
20 enforcing that.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, it depends to a large extent on the purpose
22 of the examination-in-chief on that topic, and it's been -- I think the
23 Bicics were also cross-examined on that particular topic. I don't know
24 what the purpose of that is. I can only speculate that the purpose of it
25 is to attack character or on the basis of --
1 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I understood from the Defence side, but from
2 the Prosecution side. I mean, I know you are re-examining, but you are
3 not obliged to raise every issue.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: No, I don't. My only point was to ascertain from
5 the witness, if possible, what the atmosphere at the time in 1992 was in
6 relation to citizens walking around the street carrying weapons and
7 whether or not anyone cared two hoots about a firearms law which, given
8 the circumstances in 1992, I wouldn't have thought --
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, whether in fact there was lawlessness.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: That's the only point of the question, if Your
13 Honour pleases.
14 Thank you. If the witness could quickly be shown D8/2 ter, the
15 document headed "Anti-sabotage Section." Thank you.
16 Q. Mr. Salkic, do you read Cyrillic?
17 A. Yes, but not really well, but I can read it, yes.
18 Q. The translation that we -- the English translation of this
19 document suggests that next to number 5, Osman Jasarevic, and next to
20 number 7, yourself, there are two words, "arrested." I think Mr. Zecevic
21 established that of these people, the only two people -- of this list of
22 people in this document, the only two that you know of who were arrested
23 were, in fact, yourself and Jasarevic. Is that correct, or can you tell
24 us if others were also arrested?
25 A. Yes. There was Enver Ibralic.
1 Q. Was he arrested?
2 A. Yes, and Admir Djakic.
3 Q. Do you know --
4 A. Fadil Sabanovic, Mirza Sehapovic.
5 Q. Do you know what period of time they were arrested? Around the
6 same time that you were, or was it much later, or can't you say?
7 A. Well, it's like this: Sabanovic was arrested. He was
8 unfortunately killed in Bijeljina. Fadil Sabanovic was arrested at the
9 same time as me. But not long after that, he was released, so he did not
10 continue on to Brcko, Bijeljina, together with us.
11 Mirza Sehapovic was also arrested. I don't know the exact date of
12 his arrest. But later on we encountered each other in camp. Sehapovic,
13 arrested about the same time as me; Ibralic, a little later; and Djakic,
14 also a little later, and they spent a certain time together with me in the
16 Q. Are all those gentlemen listed there in that document of Muslim
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Back in 1992, how old were they? Were they all youngish men?
20 A. Yes. They were all aged not more than 45, 40 or 45.
21 Q. And you said that --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, with all due respect, I would like to
24 clarify this issue, if my learned colleague can do that. Because
25 actually, the witness in his cross-examination really mentioned that only
1 he himself and only Jasarevic were arrested, and now he comes up with
2 another seven names. So his answer right now in redirect actually is
3 completely -- it's a complete contradiction to the answer he gave me
4 during the cross-examination, and I would like my learned colleague to
5 clarify that. Thank you.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm happy to do that.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: With the witness, yes.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm happy to do that. I've got no problems about
9 doing that, if Your Honours please.
10 Q. I think you heard what Mr. Zecevic had to say, Mr. Salkic. And
11 when one reads your evidence, your cross-examination from Mr. Zecevic, he
12 asked you about people on that list who had been arrested, and it took a
13 while for you to -- there were a number of questions and answers, but you
14 were asked, "Which of the people were incarcerated in the TO or the
15 primary school?" and you mentioned Osman Jasarevic, nicknamed Roma, and
16 yourself, of course. What's your final position on this? Were the men
17 that you've said today who were arrested, is that your -- is that certain,
18 what you say today?
19 A. I'll answer your question, yes. The gentleman did not allow me to
20 comment on the entire list. If he had formulated his question to say,
21 "Who was arrested at that moment," that was Jasarevic and me. But now
22 that I've had an opportunity to see the entire list, I was able to comment
23 on some others who were detained and who were in the camp also.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown D9/2 ter ID, and that is
1 the certificate. Thank you. If you could put it on the ELMO.
2 Q. Now, I think your evidence is that you never saw this document,
3 you have never seen this document before. It purports to be a document of
4 the SDA Municipal Board, and it is a certificate apparently for Jasenica,
5 Suad. Suad, S-u-a-d. Do you know any person called Suad, Jasenica Suad?
6 Is that the correct spelling?
7 A. "F," Fuad, yes. I know Mr. Fuad Jasenica.
8 Q. Okay. The B/C/S version, or the original of the document, has no
9 handwriting or stamp on it. Can you see any there?
10 A. That's right. There is no stamp here or any sort of signature,
11 and if this document was authentic, it would probably have to be stamped
12 and signed, but I have never seen it before. I say that again.
13 Q. Thank you. In the time that you were in the -- in the SDA, did
14 you become familiar -- did you have an opportunity to see SDA
15 documentation, letters, that sort of thing, in the period of time that you
16 were a member?
17 A. Well, I did not hold any positions, so I didn't look at any
18 documents, but I do know that something like this, without the letterhead,
19 the SDA letterhead, without the SDA stamp, would not be considered
20 authentic. So up here in the corner, there was a green circle with "SDA"
21 in white letters inside, and from time to time, I would get a letter
22 containing some information or -- and that's what it always looked like.
23 And here, that's missing, and also there is no stamp and no signature.
24 Q. Thank you. You were pointing with your finger. Maybe the Chamber
25 couldn't see. Was that the top, left-hand corner of the document that you
1 were referring to? Perhaps just put it on the ELMO quickly so that the
2 Chamber can see.
3 A. Here, up here in this corner, it was approximately this shape.
4 That was the letterhead. It was green, the background was green, and the
5 letters were white. And almost every piece of paper I received from the
6 SDA had this letterhead. For example, an invitation to a meeting or
7 something like that, or some information that was sent to me, it would
8 always have this letterhead with a green background. So I have never seen
9 anything like this.
10 Q. Thank you. I'm finished with that document. Perhaps before it's
11 returned, may I have a quick look at it myself, please? Glad to say I'm
12 just about finished, Mr. Salkic. In your evidence in-chief, when Mr.
13 Zecevic was asking you questions, at one stage he was asking you
14 questions --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please counsel.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry.
17 Q. He was asking you questions about the night of the attack on you
18 by Mr. Milan Simic. You mentioned the presence of -- unless I've misread
19 the transcript or unless I misheard the evidence -- and I haven't got the
20 full transcript, but I think you mentioned the name Todorovic. Was he
21 there on the night of the Milan Simic episode, or was he not?
22 A. No, certainly he wasn't present. He wouldn't have been there
23 without coming to see us, to beat us, no.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: No further questions.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Salkic, for giving evidence to the
1 Tribunal. You are now released. You can go.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours, for
3 giving me the opportunity of saying everything that I have said here.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Now, Your Honours, the Prosecution is in a position
6 to call Mr. Tihic. I believe he's outside. We are ready to go with him,
7 but perhaps before we do, there is just a matter that I think needs to be
8 raised, and the matter that the Defence may be able to assist us with.
9 At lunchtime, or just after the break, I had a conversation with
10 my colleagues from the Defence table, and they informed me that their
11 estimates of how long Mr. Tihic is going to take have been drastically
12 reduced. Up until lunchtime today, I thought the challenge for this week
13 was going to be getting him finished by Friday, and I know that the
14 Chamber has indicated they were prepared to sit -- the Trial Chamber was
15 prepared to sit longer hours. So I've been operating on that basis, and
16 as a consequence, we've not made arrangements for any stopgap witnesses to
17 come along.
18 Now, at lunchtime today -- and I'm not blaming them, but the
19 ground has suddenly shifted radically, and I'm told that we could be
20 finished - on an extremely optimistic note - I think the assessment was
21 late Wednesday and possibly Thursday, but certainly by Thursday, unless
22 I've got things wrong. That means we've got Thursday afternoon and Friday
23 to deal with, to use up.
24 Now, I proposed to my colleagues informally at the break that we
25 could call Ms. Ewa Tabeau, who is the demographics expert. However, they
1 are reluctant for that to occur, on the grounds that they have not yet
2 received certain advice or certain evidence from other witnesses or
3 someone that they want.
4 So that's the situation that has arisen. In one sense, it's good,
5 in the sense that we will definitely finish Mr. Tihic, but in the other
6 sense, it causes some considerable problems for the Prosecution because
7 really the only stopgap witness we can produce at short notice is
8 Ms. Tabeau, who works in the OTP and is available at short notice. So --
9 JUDGE MUMBA: And what is the nature of her evidence?
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Demographics. She is a demographics expert. She
11 is going to give evidence of the population distribution.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: She is an expert?
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, yes, she is an expert.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: We already have the report?
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes. It's anticipated that she would be
16 called, there would be some evidence in examination-in-chief, and then she
17 would be opened up for cross-examination by the Defence.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for one moment
20 while I check?
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 MR. DI FAZIO: And I might also, while I'm on the topic, mention
23 the position of the Prosecution. We can call her. Mr. Weiner has
24 conferred with her earlier this afternoon. She's available. The
25 Prosecution, however, does not wish to have her evidence split, to have
1 her evidence split, which was a proposal aired by the Defence. In other
2 words, examination and then, at later stage, cross-examination.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I think the -- if we are going to have her at
4 all, if her report is with -- has been filed under Rule 94 bis, she won't
5 be long in examination-in-chief. It's only getting her report received
6 formally and her CV.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: I think there are a few aspects of her report that
8 need to be explained and perhaps need to be highlighted. I can assure the
9 Chamber that we wouldn't be long with her, though, in
10 examination-in-chief. I don't think that's the problem, though. I think
11 the problem - and perhaps the Defence should explain this, rather than
12 myself - but I think the problem is that they are waiting certain other
13 evidence and they don't want to cross-examine her straight away.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: It's just to confirm that today, because of the
15 special Plenary, we will not be able to sit beyond 1700 hours. I'm sure
16 the parties were informed, because I instructed the officials to inform
17 them. It's about Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, when we are scheduled to
18 sit up to 1830 hours. So maybe I can hear the Defence, how long their
19 estimates are with the cross-examination for Mr. Tihic.
20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Madam President, I would be in position to
21 raise certain issues, although I'm sure that with regard to the other
22 aspects of this problem, maybe my colleagues could also give you
23 additional information. I am referring, first of all, to my colleagues,
24 Defence counsel on behalf of Mr. Milan Simic. That's another issue
25 regarding the hours, et cetera.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 But first of all, we have in our transcript, a significant number
2 of changes in list of the Prosecutor witnesses due to the various facts.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Let's leave that aside. How long will your
4 cross-examination take for Mr. Tihic? Speaking for yourself - I'll ask
5 each counsel - how long do you think you'll need?
6 MR. PANTELIC: As I said previously, Your Honour, depending of the
7 communication with the witness, about the -- whether he will follow the
8 pattern of the cross-examination, not to go into additional explaining, so
9 on and so forth, well, I would say at least two hours, maybe two and a
10 half. But as you know, I mean, it's very, very rough, rough estimate.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is for you alone.
12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. It's a very rough estimation.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
14 MR. PANTELIC: Also we were informed that Mr. Dagovic will come
15 this week.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. Let's just deal with Mr. Tihic because
17 he's waiting to be called. So you think you'll take two and a half hours.
18 MR. PANTELIC: Something like that. Maybe three.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Zecevic, about how long do you need?
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Forty minutes to one hour. Thank you.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Forty minutes to one hour? That's too wide. I'll
22 make it one hour, for cross-examination, that is.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: I will try to my best to limit myself to 40 minutes.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Mr. Krgovic?
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Forty minutes.
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Our estimation is something like
2 two hours.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: A fast estimate would be a total of seven hours, I
5 MR. DI FAZIO: That takes us to about Thursday morning, I think,
6 by my rough calculations.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Just to be on the safer side, because I usually
8 don't like really stopping counsel in cross-examination, for obvious
9 reasons, because sometimes the answers bring some more questions.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Of course.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Sometimes. And it's better that we complete what
12 they need to complete.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thursday morning on those estimations. Even if
14 things don't go well, don't go smoothly, say, even to the end of
15 Thursday. We've still got Friday to use.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because we need to include the time for
17 re-examination, and usually re-examination will depend on the issues
18 raised on cross-examination.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: I was a bit longer than I expected to be today, but
20 I would hope to keep it short.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic?
22 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may address the second issue about the sitting
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: I don't think, with all due respect, that this is
1 possible, because I have been conferring with my client about his
2 well-being and his medical status at this moment, and he says, as I
3 previously told this Trial Chamber, that he is -- by sitting until 5.00,
4 it is about the limit he can really bear at this moment.
5 This, today, he also experienced another problem that the new
6 nurse came, which is inexperienced, so -- I mean, Your Honours, there is
7 so many problems, we have to deal with that - I mean just logistics - that
8 I don't really -- I really don't think that it is achievable, with the --
9 we are trying on our side, as Defence, to limit, as you have seen, about
10 the Mr. Tihic's cross-examination, we tried to really expedite this
11 trial. We are doing our best. But this is something we cannot really
12 compromise on that. Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure that everybody is trying to do their
14 best. And the authorities in the Tribunal are also concerned about the
15 welfare of Mr. Milan Simic; that is why they are trying to provide
16 whatever they can provide. And we also have a duty to get the trial
17 going. So if we all stick to the hours mentioned for cross-examination
18 and perhaps re-examination, perhaps we can cut off sitting beyond 1700
19 hours, especially due to Mr. Milan Simic's condition, so that it wouldn't
20 be in anybody's interests if his health broke down before we finish the
21 witnesses who are directly mentioning him in the charges against him.
22 So we will revise our sitting schedules and stick to completing
23 our proceedings each day at 1700 hours; that is, today -- no. Today it is
24 because of the special Plenary. Tomorrow, Wednesday, Thursday, and
25 Friday. So we'll change the hours only up to 1700 hours; the usual lunch
1 break, 1300 hours to 1530. I hope that will be of some help to Mr. Milan
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Your Honours, my client just informed me -- he
4 called me over there, and I had to excuse myself to go over there.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: He says that he is experiencing very strong
7 difficulties today, and with the Court's permission, he would like to rest
8 tomorrow in UNDU.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: At the Detention Unit?
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, at the Detention Unit, and not come into the
11 Court, because he doesn't feel well. That is his -- but as I understood
12 him, we can go on with the trial tomorrow --
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because it's the cross-examination, actually.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Yes.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Yes, that will be granted. He can be
16 excused. He can rest the whole day tomorrow, because we are just dealing
17 with cross-examination of a witness he has already heard himself.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: You're welcome.
20 So the Registry assistant will inform the relevant officers,
21 please, for tomorrow only.
22 Yes, Mr. di Fazio.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry to burden the Chamber with even more
24 problems --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. di Fazio.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry to burden the Chamber with even more
2 problems, but better to deal with them now than later, and that's the
3 question of who do we call next.
4 Now, as the Chamber rightly pointed out, estimates are we'll
5 finish Thursday this witness, perhaps late Thursday, but that still leaves
6 Friday. Now, I propose to call - Mr. Weiner will take that witness - I
7 propose to call Ewa Tabeau. But, as I said, the Prosecution doesn't want
8 to do that if it's going to result in split testimony, in other words, her
9 examination-in-chief on one occasion and then, at a later stage, after
10 other witnesses, she's called back for cross-examination.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, because, you see, we cannot limit the
12 cross-examination. If she is going to start on Friday, for instance, and
13 then - I don't know how long you will take. Maybe one hour or so - and
14 then we have four Defence counsels to cross-examine.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I think -- I'm sorry. Perhaps I didn't make
16 myself clear. I've got no problem with her going off during that break in
17 the following week and then finishing off her cross-examination, but what
18 I understood from Defence counsel was this: They're happy for her to give
19 her evidence in chief and then for her to be adjourned off at a later
20 date, much later date, in the same way --
21 MR. PANTELIC: No, no. Next week, after the break.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Because next week we are not sitting.
23 MR. PANTELIC: After the break.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: I see. Perhaps I've misunderstood.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Let me confirm with the Defence counsels. My
1 understanding is that this expert witness will come and give evidence
2 possibly on Friday, maybe the examination-in-chief will be completed, but
3 that the Defence counsels are saying they would need more time to prepare
4 for cross-examination, in which case they wouldn't be ready to start
5 cross-examination right away.
6 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: They would rather have the cross-examination after
8 our break.
9 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely correct. A hundred per cent, Your
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
12 MR. PANTELIC: In addition, allow me to say, Madam President, that
13 in light of the fact that Mr. Milan Simic tomorrow will not come here, we
14 propose to have a shorter lunch break, so we can start at 2.30 p.m., and
15 to have sitting hours until 5.00, if it fits --
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
17 MR. PANTELIC: -- if it's fine with all of us.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is a possibility, because we won't need
19 the long lunch break, and we can revise the sitting hours. Perhaps start
20 at 14.30, have a break at 1600 hours, and continue at 1630 to -- from
21 1630 - how much is one and a half hours? - have another one and a half
22 hours. I'm very bad at maths.
23 MR. PANTELIC: 1830, Your Honour. It's 1830, if we have a
24 30-minute --
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, have two sessions in the afternoon as well.
1 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Two sessions in the morning, two sessions in the
3 afternoon. Yes, that's perfectly okay.
4 The Prosecution? Because that will complete cross-examination
5 much faster.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got no problem with that at all. I'm happy to
7 sit those hours. And I think it's a fine suggestion. And if the Chamber
8 is happy with that, I'll --
9 JUDGE MUMBA: For tomorrow only, because Mr. Milan Simic will be
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. That's fine. I've got no problem with that.
12 And if the Chamber wants that, then --
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll confirm that with the Registry assistant
14 after finding out from the other trials whether they will not use the
15 Trial Chamber. So that is a proposal which the Trial Chamber is pleased
16 to accept, subject to the Registry being prepared to prepare the courtroom
17 for that. And then on Thursday and Friday, if Mr. Simic is able to come
18 on Thursday, then we go back to our normal hours, up to 1700 hours only.
19 All right?
20 MR. DI FAZIO: The problem -- I have no problem with that either.
21 And what I'm foreshadowing is what happens when we've finished with
22 Mr. Simic. That's what I'm concerned about.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: When we are finished with Mr. Tihic.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: With Mr. Tihic, sorry.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. But I thought we were agreed that the
1 examination-in-chief of the expert witness can go ahead.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, okay. Well, what if that's an hour or two
3 hours? Then we might be left with an afternoon or --
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Do you see what I mean? And I'm concerned that the
6 Chamber will then say, "Well, where's your next witness," and what do we
7 do in that situation?
8 JUDGE MUMBA: We are having too many problems. I think what we
9 can do is -- I can't say, but I thought that the Prosecution -- the
10 Defence counsels would be perhaps ready with maybe another witness where
11 they would go into cross-examination right away.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't know. There is --
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Because right now we don't know whether Mr. Milan
15 Simic will be well enough to come on Thursday, after resting tomorrow, so
16 we can't even say whether or not we can bring another witness directly
17 concerning Mr. Milan Simic. So let's leave it at that. Let's see what
18 happens. Can we start Mr. Tihic, please?
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, very well. Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: And who is going to start?
21 MR. ZECEVIC: I am.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Mr. Tihic. You are still under
25 solemn declaration. We are now going to start cross-examination, and
1 thereafter the Prosecution will do their re-examination.
2 So Mr. Zecevic is starting.
3 WITNESS: SULEJMAN TIHIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Zecevic:
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Tihic.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Tihic. I'm going to ask you a few questions
9 with respect to your testimony about a month ago. You recall your
10 testimony, do you not?
11 A. Yes, of course.
12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tihic, if I understood you correctly, you were a
13 judge, prosecutor, and then an attorney. Is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. This is perhaps a good moment, Mr. Tihic, for you to clarify one
16 point. As an experienced lawyer, I'm sure you can tell us something about
17 some relevant legal provisions in the BH republic in 1992.
18 A. Probably, yes.
19 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Tihic, if you know, and I assume you do: The
20 possession of automatic weapons, such as a Kalashnikov or some similar
21 weapon, was not possible legally, was it?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Possessing such a weapon was a criminal act in conformity with the
24 Criminal Code of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?
25 A. I don't know if it was a criminal act or an offence - I can't
1 quite remember - or a misdemeanour. But anyway, something along those
3 Q. Does that mean that there was punishment if somebody had committed
4 this offence, misdemeanour, or crime?
5 A. Yes, and probably a fine would have been incurred.
6 Q. A fine for the possession of illegal automatic weapons?
7 A. It could have been a fine, yes, depending on the case, and if it
8 was a recidivist or if it was a first-time offender.
9 Q. Yes, but there was a prison sentence as well?
10 A. Probably as an alternative. Both were possible: fines and terms
11 in prison.
12 Q. Does that mean, Mr. Tihic, that the deprivation of freedom for
13 people who are suspected of having committed the crime or misdemeanour
14 would be in keeping with the legal provisions?
15 A. No, it would not.
16 Q. Why?
17 A. Because it wasn't a crime for which the sentence of deprivation of
18 freedom is prescribed. It is not so grievous as to merit that sentence.
19 Q. I asked you about arrest.
20 A. I don't think that a person would be arrested for having committed
21 that particular act.
22 Q. Mr. Tihic, I'm asking you whether the competent authorities in the
23 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina - and I mean the police force first and
24 foremost - did they have the authority to undertake measures? If somebody
25 was suspected of being in possession of arms illegally, could they arrest
1 that person and could they file a criminal report and undertake
2 proceedings against them?
3 A. It would have been cause for detention and interrogation, but not
4 for a prison sentence; otherwise you would have to incarcerate half of
5 Bosnia. But formally and legally, it was not such a serious crime which
6 would imply a prison sentence.
7 Q. I did not -- I was just asking you about an arrest, whether an
8 arrest would be warranted. Thank you.
9 Mr. Tihic, another matter: You were incarcerated, if I remember
10 your testimony rightly, at the SUP building and the TO building in the
11 first few days; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. A total of about 50 people were incarcerated there; is that right?
14 A. Yes, thereabouts.
15 Q. I think you said, Mr. Tihic, that most of them were Muslims and
16 Croats as regards ethnicity.
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. What is the overall population, approximately speaking, if you can
19 tell me, of the Croats and Muslims as an ethnic group, an ethnic community
20 in Samac, in the town of Samac, taken together, approximately?
21 A. Well, in the town itself, in the town proper, there were 40 per
22 cent to 45 per cent Muslims; 15 per cent were Croats; 20 per cent was the
23 maximum for the Croats.
24 Q. Would that mean about 3.000 people were Muslims and Croats, taken
25 together? Would I be correct in saying that?
1 A. I would say three and a half thousand, a little more.
2 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, Mr. Tihic: After the elections in
3 1990, you were elected deputy of the Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Samac;
4 is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Tell me, if you recall: The budget of Bosanski Samac for 1990 [as
7 interpreted] was never adopted, was it?
8 A. I can't remember.
9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tihic, you are the vice-president of the Assembly
10 of Republika Srpska at the moment; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And your professional career is linked to legislation, as far as I
14 A. Political. The rest was tied up with --
15 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I was -- I was told that
16 there is a problem with the transcript. It's page 9625. It says "1990,"
17 and the question was "1992." Would you like me to --
18 JUDGE MUMBA: The budget for 1992.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: That's right.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can repeat the question, I think.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I apologise, Mr. Tihic. There was an error in the transcript.
23 Could you repeat? I asked you with regard to the budget for 1992.
24 A. I don't know whether the budget for 1992 was adopted or not.
25 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Tihic: Looking at your C.V., you have
1 had a lot of practical experience, because you worked in the judiciary.
2 A. That's correct, yes, more or less.
3 Q. You also have experience in the legislative branch of government
4 at the level both of the municipality and the republic; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Then, Mr. Tihic, you must be aware of the fact that the Republic
7 of Srpska had very lively legislative activity in 1992.
8 A. I'm not aware of it.
9 Q. Do you know that in that year, the constitution and a lot of
10 legislation, a large number of decrees, decisions, were adopted?
11 A. Everything that was enacted was annulled by the constitutional
12 court of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I know some things were
13 adopted, but the constitutional court annulled it.
14 Q. I am referring to the decisions and the decrees enacted by
15 Republika Srpska.
16 A. The decrees adopted in 1992 up to the beginning of the aggression
17 were rendered null and void. I know that the constitutional court of the
18 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina rendered some of these null and void,
19 and none of this was published in the Official Gazette, so I could not
20 have been aware of it. We considered these institutions to be parastate
21 institutions. They were not legal. They were not part of the system, so
22 what they issued was not valid, up to the signing of the Dayton Accord
23 when Republika Srpska was recognised. That was in 1995.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you. I would like the usher to help me --
25 Q. [Interpretation] I will now show you some documents, Mr. Tihic,
1 and I would like you to identify them and see whether we agree on their
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, this is the extract of Official
4 Gazette of Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina dated Monday, 8 June
5 1992, number 10, and the actual document is an executive order of some
6 kind. It has a number 176 as a decision. You can put the English version
7 on the ELMO.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Is there an English version?
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, there is. Oh, I'm sorry, we didn't have the
10 time to -- we gave it to the translation department, but we never got
11 the -- of all these documents, we don't have translation, Your Honours.
12 So what I will do is ask the witness to read the name of the executive
13 decision, and then we will mark it for the identification, and after we
14 have the translation, then we will ask that it be admitted to evidence.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, provided that all the questions, whatever
16 questions you have, will be based on the passages that the witness will be
17 asked to read.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Exactly, Your Honours, but I'm not going to go into
19 the contents of the executive orders or any other documents which I am
20 about to present. I just want the witness to explain the nature of these
21 documents -- of these executive orders, nothing else.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I don't want to be seen to be agreeing
23 to the admissibility of this document at this stage. I'm happy for it to
24 be marked for identification. I'd just like to ascertain whether it was
25 ever disclosed to us and --
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because before the English translation, really
2 you can't be in a position to state your position.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Exactly, so I remain at liberty to object at a
4 later stage if necessary.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, these documents have been disclosed to
6 the Prosecutor by myself. Let me remind the Prosecutor those are the
7 Official Gazettes number 8, 10 and 12 of 1992, and --
8 JUDGE MUMBA: But they were still in Serbo-Croat.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. They were disclosed to the Prosecutor in
11 JUDGE MUMBA: So we will go by the system I have elaborated.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Could we have the number for identification
14 purposes, please?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document D11/2 ter ID.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
17 Q. [No interpretation]
18 A. I didn't hear you.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Would you be kind enough to read what it says in
20 the letterhead, I mean the title above Monday, the 8th of June, 1992?
21 A. "Official Gazette of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina,
22 number 8, page 311."
23 Q. Thank you. And the decree?
24 A. "Decree on organising and performing work obligation for the needs
25 of defence."
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 [In English] Your Honour, could we have the second document?
3 Maybe the Registrar can just give it subnumbers under the -- no? Okay.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: She will decide how to number them.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document D12/2 ter ID.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Please bear with me, Your Honours, just a second.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Tihic, would you be so kind as to do --
12 A. "Monday, 8th of June, 1992, Official Gazette of the Serbian People
13 in Bosnia and Herzegovina, number 8, page 317."
14 Q. Could you please read the decision 189?
15 A. "Decision on the functioning and protection of businesses and
16 industrial plants under conditions of an imminent threat of war in the
17 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Tihic.
19 [In English] Could the usher help me with the third document,
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document D13/2 ter ID.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Tihic, I apologise for troubling you like this, but because we
24 do not have versions in English, it is necessary for you to read this.
25 A. "Page 318, number 8, Official Gazette," and it's probably of the
1 Serbian people, but it's not legible.
2 Q. Under number 189?
3 A. "Order on restarting production and on stocks of finished
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Could we have the next document, please?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document D14/2 ter ID.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Page 356, number 10, Official
8 Gazette of the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Tuesday, the 30th
9 of June, 1992."
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Would you please read decree number 275? It's the first one on
12 the right-hand side.
13 A. "Decree on the manner of safe removal of animal carcasses and
14 other inedible animal parts and products under conditions of threat of
16 Q. [In English] Thank you.
17 A. Again?
18 Q. [Interpretation] Yes, again.
19 A. "Tuesday, the 30th of June, 1992, Official Gazette of the Serbian
20 People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, number 10, page 361."
21 Q. Please, if you can, read decision 279.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Could we have the number?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Number D15/2 ter ID.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. If you could please read decision 279, Mr. Tihic.
1 A. "Decision on the manner of determining remuneration, compensation
2 for work in state organs and companies."
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 [In English] May we have the next document, please?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document D16/2 ter ID.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Tuesday, the 30th of June, 1992,
7 Official Gazette of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, number
8 10, page 369. Decision on limiting the prices of staple foodstuffs on the
9 territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Tihic.
11 [In English] Could we have the next one, please. I'm sorry.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document D17/2 ter ID.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, there is a matter that I'm
14 grateful to Mr. Weiner for having pointed it out to me, and it relates to
15 this. I think I should raise it now.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. di Fazio?
17 MR. DI FAZIO: That's this Rule 90(H)(i), says that
18 cross-examination has got to be limited to the subject matter of the
19 evidence-in-chief and matters affecting the credibility of the witness.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: And?
21 MR. DI FAZIO: And where the witness is able to give evidence
22 relevant to the case for the cross-examining party to the subject matter
23 of the case. To the subject matter of the case. Now, I
24 don't -- obviously it's not -- this documentation and this issue can't go
25 to the issue of credibility, and I don't see how it arose -- how it arises
1 from anything that occurred in the context of anything that was said in
2 the evidence-in-chief of this witness. And so --
3 JUDGE MUMBA: But what about any matter that may support the
4 Defence case of the cross-examining party?
5 MR. DI FAZIO: It doesn't say that. That Rule doesn't say that.
6 Now, I suggest that -- what I'm concerned about is that Mr. Zecevic might
7 be using this witness essentially just to present his case, and that's
8 what concerns me, and the operation of the Rule may well prevent that.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: This was (H)(i)?
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. These are documents produced by the Republika
11 Srpska in a period of time when this witness was incarcerated. Now, it's
12 got somehow to be relevant to the case for the cross-examining party.
13 Now, I don't know if it is or isn't relevant. I can't see what the
14 relevance of it is at this stage. If Mr. Zecevic can explain how it
15 becomes relevant or -- then I withdraw my objection, but at this stage,
16 try as I will, I can't see what the relevance of this material is to his
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Which material? The documents?
19 MR. DI FAZIO: These decisions, this material that's going in.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Why don't we wait for his questions, and see?
21 MR. DI FAZIO: As Your Honours please.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Because he's just asking the witness to identify
23 what these are. And a part of the problem in this case is who was in
24 power, who was who, state-wise.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps what I'll do is hope Mr. Zecevic bears in
1 mind what I've said, and I'll sit down, and perhaps he can continue, but
2 at some point, that will have to be demonstrated, the relevance of this
3 material will have to be demonstrated. Otherwise, I'd like it to be known
4 that I will be objecting to its admission into evidence.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, and I think the other thing that must be borne
6 in mind in this trial, where we have four people, is that sometimes
7 Defence counsel share which areas of the case they will cross-examine. It
8 may not necessarily be only cross-examining only on the charges facing the
9 accused. And that sharing of topics does save time, because otherwise
10 each counsel would have to repeat what they think is for their case.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: I appreciate that, if Your Honours please.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure Mr. Zecevic has understood what you're
14 MR. DI FAZIO: It's something that, as I watch this material come
15 in, it concerns me, and I just raise it for Mr. Zecevic's consideration
16 and so that he knows the position of the Prosecution. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, and I will not allow Mr. Zecevic to explain in
18 reply. Just go ahead with your cross-examination.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Very shortly, Your Honour, we believe we are
20 entitled --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. It's simply a matter of time because the
22 Chamber has no problem at all. Just go ahead with your cross-examination.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, I didn't understand.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tihic --
25 A. "Page 372, number 10, Official Gazette of the Serbian People in
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Tuesday, the 30th of June, 1992."
2 Q. Please, would you read us the instruction numbered 300?
3 A. "Instruction on increased security of -- for supplying households
4 with potable water."
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Are we going with the numbers in sequence?
6 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we shall always wait for the Registry
7 assistant to give us the number. I think it's much better that way.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: I was trying to save time, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we would rather have a clearer record, yes.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: That's true.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document D18/2 ter ID.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Page -- I think it's page 400. It's
13 a little bit illegible, but the Official Gazette is number 12, "Official
14 Gazette of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Friday, the 31st
15 of July, 1992."
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Would you please read decree 358.
18 A. "Decree on the temporary use of flats, business premises and
19 residential buildings."
20 Q. Thank you.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document D19/2 ter ID.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Page 430, number 12, Official
23 Gazette of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Friday, the 31st
24 of July, 1992. Decree on the work recruitment of the population in
25 gathering the harvest."
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tihic. Tell me, Mr. Tihic, could you explain
3 briefly what a decree is to the Trial Chamber?
4 A. A decree is a by-law issued by the government on the basis of its
5 authority and the law.
6 Q. Thank you. And a decision? Is that also a by-law?
7 A. A decision is also a statutory act, but it can be issued by other
8 bodies, other than the government. It can also be an assembly or a
10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tihic, as far as you know, I assume you are seeing
11 these documents for the first time?
12 A. Yes, I'm seeing them for the first time now.
13 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that this is legislation passed by
14 the Republika Srpska?
15 A. I have no reason to doubt it.
16 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Tihic, at the beginning --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's just be clear, I'm sorry, Mr. Zecevic on the
18 question you asked Mr. Tihic, when you say -- he has answered that he has
19 no doubt that this is legislation passed by Republika Srpska. Is it still
20 in -- this legislation is still in force or was it the legislation --
21 MR. ZECEVIC: It was the legislation to the relevant time of this
23 JUDGE MUMBA: It's no longer in force?
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honour, you're asking me a million dollar
25 question, really, because some of it is probably during the time it has
1 been changed, some of it is in force, and some of it is not in force any
3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So we limit it to the relevant time
4 covered by the indictment.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. It's limited to the relevant time in the
7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tihic, you said a minute ago, in answer to my
10 question about decrees and decisions, that they were not published in
11 Official Gazettes.
12 A. These Official Gazettes have a basic flaw. They are said to be
13 official gazettes of the people. People do not have official gazettes;
14 municipalities do, and other bodies. No nation, no people issues a
15 gazette; it's a state that issues a gazette. These gazettes were not
16 available at the time. They may have been printed somewhere, but I was
17 not able, as an ordinary man, to get hold of them. Maybe the government
18 did issue these things somewhere, but it's very strange that they say it's
19 an official gazette of the people. It is states, entities, cantons that
20 publish official gazettes, not the people.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Please bear with me, Your Honours. Can I have a
22 minute, please?
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. When you mentioned the decision of the constitutional court of
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Tihic, did you mean the decision of October
3 1992, by which the declaration of the Serbian people on the establishing
4 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was rendered null and
5 void? Is that the decision you are referring to?
6 A. You must mean 1991, not 1992.
7 Q. 1992.
8 A. I can't tell you exactly what the title of this document was,
9 whether it was a declaration or whether it was a constitution. But the
10 constitutional court rendered null and void the document concerning the
11 establishment of Republika Srpska, and if that was rendered null and void,
12 then all the other by-laws stemming from it were not valid.
13 Q. I understand you fully.
14 A. Well, that's from my point of view, of course.
15 Q. Let us just clarify something. Are you referring to the decision
16 by which the fundamental piece of legislation was rendered null and void,
17 thereby rendering null and void all the other documents stemming from it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. This means that none of these lower-level documents were directly
20 annulled by the constitutional court.
21 A. No, not one by one, not individually.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tihic. We shall agree that these regulations that
23 you glanced through in fact represent matters falling within the
24 competence of the executive branch of government; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. By "the executive branch of government," you also mean the
2 executive committee of the municipality?
3 A. Yes, but these were not issued by the executive committee of the
4 municipality, what we just read. But in a broader sense, yes, yes, an
5 executive committee is part of the executive branch of government at a
6 lower level.
7 Q. And is it up to the executive branch to enforce this legislation?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Tihic, to move on to another topic: At
10 the time of these events in April 1992, you were the president of the town
11 committee of the SDA, the town board in Bosanski Samac; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you wrote a book of memoirs?
14 A. Well, when I was released from camp in 1992, I made notes in the
15 order that these events came back to me.
16 Q. And in this book -- shall we say it's a book?
17 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tihic, in this book you described in detail
19 all the events you could recall pertaining to the time before and after
20 the 17th of April, 1992; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, more or less. Not in total detail, but yes, quite
23 Q. I will ask the usher to show you a document.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Could I have the document D3/2 ter ID, D3/2 ter ID.
25 Could you put the English version on the ELMO and the original one before
1 Mr. Tihic.
2 Q. Have you had a chance to look at it? Do you recognise this
4 A. I don't remember this document. I see what it's about, but I
5 don't remember that this document was issued to Hasan Bicic.
6 Q. Is your name typed here where the signature is?
7 A. Yes, but it wasn't I who signed it, and I don't remember that
8 there was any need to issue this certificate to Hasan Bicic.
9 Q. You know Hasan Bicic?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. You know him well?
12 A. Well, he was an innkeeper in Samac.
13 Q. He was a member of the SDA?
14 A. Maybe, but if he was, it was only on paper. He wasn't active, not
15 active enough to warrant this sort of certificate.
16 Q. And his brother, Muhamed Bicic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You know him?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Was he a member of the SDA also?
21 A. I don't remember. If he was, he wasn't one of the active people.
22 They were more concerned with their own private business enterprise.
23 Q. So you cannot remember having issued this document to Hasan Bicic?
24 A. No, I can't. I probably didn't. It's more likely that I didn't,
25 because I see no reason for issuing Hasan with this certificate.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Do you have any idea what sort of materiel and technical equipment
2 could have been referred to on the 13th of April, 1992?
3 A. Well, it's precisely because of this. I don't think Hasan could
4 have got hold of this sort of certificate. Materiel and technical
5 equipment could refer to anything. But at that time, this was just before
6 the attack on Samac. This could not have been issued to Hasan, no way. I
7 remember on one occasion issuing a similar certificate, but this referred
8 to other persons - and I think I mentioned it in my testimony - but not
9 for Hasan.
10 Q. So you say you issued such certificates.
11 A. I issued just one other one, and that was for Fuad Jasenica and
12 Ibrahim Salkic.
13 Q. We'll come to that.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, it's 1700 hours. We'll adjourn --
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Tihic. We'll
16 continue tomorrow.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: -- and we will resume our proceedings tomorrow at
18 0930 hours.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.02 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of
21 November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.