Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4029

1 Monday, 19 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

7 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

8 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution.

10 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour, I believe that the

11 Chamber had been informed through the legal officer that the witness whom

12 we were examining at the end of -- well, before we rose on Friday, the 9th

13 of November, has unfortunately had to return to Bosanski Samac because of

14 a death in the family. It was the father-in-law, who was sick prior to

15 him giving testimony, but that testimony was given on short notice because

16 of the shortened time of cross-examination of Sulejman Tihic. In the

17 intervening period, the father-in-law has died and the witness has had to

18 return home to look after the funeral arrangements and that. He will be

19 available towards the end of the week for cross, but we propose that we

20 would then move straight ahead and call the next witness, who is a

21 protected witness, subject to a prior order from 1999, and has been given

22 the pseudonym Witness G. And Defence counsel were advised of the

23 situation once the Prosecution learned what had happened to the witness,

24 Mr. Dagovic.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness G has also got facial distortion, face

Page 4030

1 distortion?

2 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. Witness G has facial distortion,

3 and I believe she has also requested voice distortion. I'm not sure

4 whether that has been put in place this morning.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Because the order did say that the witness has got a

6 pseudonym and face distortion, and, upon request, can be granted voice

7 distortion, and that has been put in place, we've been told.

8 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, the Prosecution is happy to proceed as

9 the order has indicated, facial distortion and voice distortion, because

10 the witness would be --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: And the voice distortion, both parties, when asking

12 the witness -- after the question, you switch off the microphone,

13 otherwise the voice of the witness will go through your system and then

14 can be heard outside. So it's a bit of a mechanical aspect.

15 I want to hear from the Defence. Have you been informed about the

16 change of witness? We can't have the other witness for cross-examination

17 this morning, as stated by the Prosecution.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, indeed we have

19 been advised by the OTP that this unfortunate thing has happened with

20 Mr. Esad Dagovic and that they would like to proceed with Witness G, and

21 we don't have any objection to that. Thank you.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I want to remind -- to ask the

23 Prosecution: [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted] Now, the Trial

Page 4031

1 Chamber would like to know whether this is still on or it has been -- it

2 has fallen through, because throughout, the Prosecution -- his name was

3 being mentioned. So can we have a submission on that? What is the

4 position?

5 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour is correct. That witness's name has

6 actually been put on the public record. And the reason for the initial

7 protective measures was because Witness A had -- whilst in detention had

8 been subjected to treatment -- it was, in particular, of a sexual nature,

9 and it was a request for a matter of privacy, personal privacy. Whilst

10 that person's name has been put on the record as of him being a person

11 detained and a victim of beatings, so far his name has not come up with

12 specific incidents of that nature, and for that reason, if the witness is

13 still to testify, we would ask that, when testifying, he be protected so

14 that he would not be identified as a specific victim of that treatment.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So we'll come to that when he actually

16 comes --

17 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: -- and can testify. Okay.

19 MS. REIDY: Of course, we have also -- although the name has been

20 put on the record, I've sought to ensure that his name would never be

21 directly linked with either the pseudonym or with that treatment.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Thank you. So we can go ahead. The witness

23 can be called.

24 MS. REIDY: Sorry, Your Honour. Just before the witness is

25 called, may I just seek a procedural clarification?

Page 4032

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

2 MS. REIDY: It concerns how Your Honour would like to proceed with

3 the witness identification. I have a sheet of paper which I have left

4 with the Registry and with the Defence, indicating the witness's name,

5 date of birth and place of birth, which I could propose to put to the

6 witness and to have the witness confirm whether or not those are indeed

7 the details, and then those persons in the courtroom could also confirm

8 that we are indeed dealing with the appropriate pseudonym.

9 After that, as has been practiced, there would be a couple of

10 biographical questions I would like to put to her about where she came

11 from and connections with the area she used to live in, and that might, of

12 course, lead to identification of the witness, and I would request, if

13 it's possible, that this first few minutes just be done in private session

14 so that there's no identifying information, and I believe the Defence

15 counsel wouldn't have an objection to that. I did run it by them this

16 morning and I think that they feel that that's satisfactory. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Normally that's what we do. We use a piece of

18 paper where the particulars are printed, and then the piece of paper is

19 admitted into evidence under seal, and it will have a number. So that's

20 normally the procedure.

21 MS. REIDY: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I do hope that the Defence have no objection to

23 going into private session for the first few questions, as indicated by

24 the Prosecution.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: No, Your Honours. We don't have any objection.

Page 4033

1 Thank you.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: So we can proceed. We'll go into private session

3 after the solemn declaration and after the piece of paper --

4 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: -- has been admitted.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please make your solemn

8 declaration.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS G

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution.

15 MS. REIDY: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

16 Examined by Ms. Reidy:

17 Q. Good morning.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. Witness, I think I've already explained to you that you are -- you

20 have certain measures which are protecting your identity whilst you give

21 your testimony to the Chamber, and for that reason, I'm not going to ask

22 you to put your name on the record. However, you will now be shown a

23 piece of paper, and when you're shown the piece of paper, I'd like you to

24 confirm whether or not the details on that paper refer to you.

25 MS. REIDY: Could I ask the registry to present the witness with

Page 4034

1 the piece of paper.

2 A. Yes. It's all right.

3 MS. REIDY:

4 Q. Can you just confirm for me at the letter "A", that's your name,

5 is it? That is your name at the letter "A", is it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that is your date of birth at letter "B"?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. And at the letter "C", is that the place where you were born?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. REIDY: And I'd ask the Chamber now if that could be placed

13 under seal or would the Chamber like to inspect the paper that the -- that

14 the witness has just read out or has just read to herself.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Could we have the number, please?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The number is P34, under seal.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you.

18 The Prosecution can proceed.

19 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. And at this stage, I request

20 that that we go into private session while I ask the witness a few

21 biographical details.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

23 [Private session]

24 [redacted]

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Page 4036

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24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are now in open session. You may proceed.

Page 4037

1 MS. REIDY:

2 Q. Now, ma'am, I'd like to ask you about some of the other people who

3 were living in Bosanski Samac in April 1992. Can I ask you whether or not

4 you know a person called Blagoje Simic?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Would you say that you knew Blagoje Simic quite well?

7 A. Well, I knew Doctor -- Mr. Blagoje Simic when he was a boy, when

8 he was ten years old, because I used to work with [redacted]

9 [redacted]. Later, when the doctor started to work, [redacted]

10 [redacted], so I would see him around. We didn't have a

11 personal relationship, no.

12 Q. Thank you. And could I ask: Would you be able to tell me whether

13 Blagoje Simic is sitting in this room today?

14 A. The gentleman, can I show, point him out with my hand or should I

15 say it? The gentleman in the dark suit with the beard.

16 Q. I think the description is clear, but you can also point to him if

17 you wish so that we all know exactly who you're talking about.

18 A. The last row, where the police officer is, and then right next to

19 him, that's the gentleman.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MS. REIDY: I think the record can show that the witness has

22 correctly identified Mr. Blagoje Simic.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

24 MS. REIDY:

25 Q. Again, do you know --

Page 4038

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour, but I have

3 information from my clients that the translation into B/C/S is not heard

4 on some of the channels, so we're not able to hear what the witness is

5 saying in their headphones. I can hear the witness, but the accused are

6 saying that in some changes, they're not able to follow what is being

7 said.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Usually when we have voice distortion we

9 normally have such problems. So I think they have to change the channel

10 each time the witness speaks.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Lukic, please.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone, please.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You can hear it very well on

14 channel 7, because before it was set on channel 6.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Maybe we can proceed now.

16 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

17 Q. This was just a technical problem. So I was going to ask you

18 about a second person who you may know from Bosanski Samac. Do you know

19 someone called Milan Simic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And again, how would you say -- how do you know Milan Simic?

22 A. I know Milan quite well. We worked together. [redacted]

23 [redacted], and our families have had

24 very close ties for years.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Could I ask you the same question? If you

Page 4039

1 see Mr. Milan Simic in the room today, could you tell us and describe to

2 us where you see him?

3 A. The gentleman in the black and white shirt.

4 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. I think the record could

5 reflect that the witness has correctly identified Mr. Milan Simic.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

7 MS. REIDY:

8 Q. Do you know someone by the name of Miroslav Tadic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And how do you know Mr. Tadic?

11 A. I just know him slightly. [redacted]. I would pass by his

12 house and we would just greet one another: Good day, good day.

13 Q. And if he was in the courtroom today, would you be able to point

14 us to him? Would you be able to tell us where he was?

15 A. Yes. The gentleman in the grey suit, with a white moustache,

16 sitting right there.

17 MS. REIDY: Thank you very much.

18 And again, if the record could reflect that Mr. Miroslav Tadic has

19 been identified.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

21 MS. REIDY:

22 Q. And finally, I believe you also know Simo Zaric.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you say you knew him fairly well or very well?

25 A. I think I know him very well. We were friends.

Page 4040

1 Q. Did you know his family?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you know his wife?

4 A. Yes. We grew up together. We're friends. I am very fond of

5 Mr. Zaric's son, Mirel.

6 Q. And just for the record, could you please indicate to the Chamber

7 if you can see Mr. Zaric here this morning.

8 A. Yes, I see him. In the glasses. The gentleman sitting next to

9 Dr. Blagoje Simic.

10 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

11 And again, I think the record can identify that all four

12 defendants have been identified.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

14 MS. REIDY:

15 Q. Now I'd like to ask you just about April 1992 and events in

16 Bosanski Samac. Can you hear me correctly?

17 A. Yes. Yes. I just -- I positioned my headphones properly now.

18 Yes, yes, I can hear you. Thank you.

19 Q. In the month of April 1992, did you notice any change in

20 atmosphere in Bosanski Samac or any --

21 A. Just one moment, please. Just one moment. Yes. Yes, you could

22 notice it. In the building where I lived, for example - and this is one

23 thing that you could notice - very few of us would stay there over the

24 weekend, on Saturday and Sunday. Perhaps out of the 24 residents who

25 lived there, perhaps two or three families would stay at home. All the

Page 4041

1 others would go to their families in the countryside.

2 Q. And I take it this was a new development; it wasn't something that

3 had normally happened in Bosanski Samac?

4 A. Yes. Yes. It was something new. Then there were some guards,

5 and then on the 11th of April - I think it was the 11th of April - there

6 was a meeting, a rally in the town, where people requested that some

7 soldiers who were around be removed. They were positioned around the

8 town.

9 Q. And did you attend this rally on the 11th of April?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And you said that it was requested that some of the soldiers who

12 were around the town be removed. Were the soldiers removed after the

13 rally?

14 A. I don't know whether that happened after the rally. All I know is

15 that Ibrahim Salkic, a fellow citizen, came out to the podium. He stood

16 at the microphone and he addressed Mr. Simo Zaric. He asked him directly

17 that these soldiers be removed. And Mr. Zaric then said that nobody will

18 enter Samac, that the 4th Detachment would defend Samac from Serbs and

19 Croats, from everybody, so this 4th Detachment will be there to save Samac

20 from anybody who would try to move in. That's what I remember. And this

21 person, Salkic, then said that his children were there, and he asked, "And

22 where are their children?" And then when he said "their," he probably

23 meant all the officials there, because many of them sent their children

24 away. Some had sent them to Croatia, some away to Serbia.

25 Q. Did you -- before the 17th of April, did you ever get any other

Page 4042

1 indication or warning that something was about to happen in Bosanski

2 Samac?

3 A. Yes. There were stories going around even in our bank. Our

4 director said one day -- since we have large windows, the bank has a lot

5 of glass, the building, so she said that we should put tape on the windows

6 in case there were any bomb blasts or detonations; we should put this tape

7 on the glass so that the glass wouldn't shatter. Sometime, I think

8 perhaps it was the 14th of April, my childhood friend, Predrag Blagojevic,

9 came to my office and said that he had just talked to his father and that

10 his father had told him that he was perhaps either at Obudovac or Batusa

11 and that Arkan's men had arrived. And he said, "I'm taking my children to

12 Novi Sad. [redacted], why don't you come with me?" My friend, my colleague,

13 was also there, Mara Mokric, and we laughed at that and told him, "Oh,

14 come on." His wife's name is Biljana and his mother's name is Zora. And

15 so we were just joking, "You just want to get rid of Zora and Biljana."

16 We thought it was some kind of joke. However, Pero left, and then three

17 days later what happened, happened.

18 Q. Thank you. Can we move to those -- to that three days later? On

19 the evening of the 16th of April, what were you doing?

20 A. It was [redacted] that day, the 16th of April. Until 3.00, in

21 the afternoon, I was at work. We were issuing paycheques. And then on

22 that day I also sent the paycheque for Mr. Milan Simic. I sent it with

23 Nijaz Huskic, who worked at that company as financial director. Because I

24 hadn't seen Milan at work from Monday that week. He didn't pick up his

25 paycheque. So I asked this man, Nijaz Huskic, "Perhaps you'll see Milan

Page 4043

1 this afternoon so you can take him his salary."

2 After 3.00, we went to a restaurant to celebrate [redacted]:

3 Gordana Nogic, Mina Nogic, Vesna Ivkovic, Mrs. Fatima Zaric, Ruzica

4 Markovic. We were at the restaurant until about 5.00. Then Fatima went

5 to the shop. She had her own shop. Ruzica also left, and those who

6 remained were Vera Ivkovic, Cica. She left as well. Gordana Nogic and

7 Mina Nogic and myself stayed on at this restaurant, this fish restaurant.

8 Around 7.15, 7.30, the waiter told us that they are closing and

9 that we should leave. We went outside to the street. [redacted]

10 [redacted], and we were planning to

11 continue [redacted] with my brothers, at my mother's house.

12 And you could see on the street that something was happening. We went to

13 my mother's house, and after about five or ten minutes, Mrs. Cvijeta

14 Bradasevic came - she is Mr. [as interpreted] Gordana Nogic's

15 sister - and she called her to go outside. And she probably warned her

16 that there was something wrong, that something was about to happen,

17 because Gordana came in and said, "Oh, dear. There'll be -- war might

18 break out." And she called her husband, Dr. Mesud Nogic, who was at a

19 restaurant called Scorpion, to check with him what the situation was. And

20 the answer that she got from him was, "Just keep on with

21 your -- continue with your celebration. Nothing will happen. I've just

22 been with Sulejman Tihic, who has just come back from Kruskovo Polje or

23 some other place. There won't be any war. Nothing will happen. You just

24 continue with your party."

25 That day, my brother was completing the first cement block. He

Page 4044

1 had started to build a business facility for his own son. And

2 Mr. Djordjic Zika, called Srbin, he was the contractor who was carrying

3 out the work, and he was the brother-in-law or the son-in-law of Milan

4 Jovanovic. I can't remember. Gordana and Mina left at about 9.30, and we

5 continued with our party. We stayed there. And then we received a

6 telephone call from Milan Jovanovic. He called his son-in-law and he

7 wanted him to come home right away. But this young man didn't go home

8 right away, so there was another phone call. So that this young man got

9 up and left together with this -- this Srbin, this craftsman. And then we

10 went to bed at about 10.30.

11 Q. Thank you very much. So you'd gone to bed. You didn't think of

12 leaving -- you and your brothers didn't think of leaving Bosanski Samac

13 that night, did you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And what happened later that night after you'd gone to bed?

16 A. Well, let me tell you. When war would be mentioned or that

17 something would happen, I always thought about it. I don't owe anybody

18 anything. I haven't done anything bad to anyone. Whoever wants to take

19 power might as well. I don't want power. Nobody's going to do me any

20 harm. So now I'll proceed along the lines of what you asked me about.

21 We went to bed, and sometime before dawn, occasional gunfire would

22 be heard, occasional gunfire. About 6.00 in the morning, Zijad Huskic,

23 nicknamed Cicko, knocked at my mother's door, and he said, "War has broken

24 out."

25 My brother had two very young children, one four years old and his

Page 4045

1 little girl seven years old, and my mother and I, we were all in the same

2 house. In the yard is my other brother's house, who had a wife, a

3 mother-in-law, and two sons.

4 Around 6.30 or 7.00, somewhere around there, somebody said that in

5 the neighbourhood, [redacted]

6 [redacted]. I went there to see what indeed was going only. He was

7 there. He was tipsy, tipsy, a bit tipsy. I asked him, "Izet, what's

8 going on?" He said that he didn't know, that he didn't know. That's what

9 he said. That's just what he said. Then I asked him where his family

10 was. He said that his people were on the other side.

11 In front of him, he had something like a green rifle. It's the

12 first time I ever saw that kind of thing. I had no idea what it was. And

13 I knew that my brother did not even have a slingshot, this brother who had

14 these very young children. And I took this away from him. I snatched it

15 away from him, from Izet Izetbegovic. And I thought, Well, if this kind

16 of thing is needed, let my brother have it.

17 I left there. And then Pasaga, Pasaga Tihic came up. He is the

18 son-in-law or bother-in-law of Izet Izetbegovic. I got out and went back

19 to my mother's house, and on a small table I left that rifle. My brothers

20 were in the yard.

21 In this same street, only a few houses away, I saw in the street

22 Mr. Franjo Barukcic. That's an elderly gentleman. I ran up to him.

23 Although there was occasional gunfire from the embankment, I saw this

24 Dzeva shooting. I don't know his real name. I just know that nickname of

25 his. He was shooting onto the street.

Page 4046

1 I ran towards Uncle Franjo to ask what was going on. Franjo was

2 frightened, very, very frightened, just like me. I said, "Uncle Franjo,

3 what is this? What's going on? What is this?" Although we had seen war

4 on television, in Croatia and before that in Slovenia, but we were really

5 taken aback. Franjo did not know what to say to me either. He was as

6 frightened as I was.

7 I returned home. Perhaps about half an hour later, I saw a few

8 young men from Samac who wore civilian clothes. They were going up

9 towards the embankment. Among them was Ibrahim Salkic, who on his way

10 back said that he had come to the Prud bridge and that he returned from

11 there. Some of these young men crossed over to Prud, and he returned.

12 That's as far as that day is concerned, I mean, up to noon, as far

13 as I can remember.

14 Q. Thank you very much. So after you knew that war had broken out,

15 did you return to your own house or did you go back to where your mother

16 and brothers and nephews and nieces were?

17 A. No, no. I was at my mother's house, at my mother's house. I

18 didn't go to my apartment. I didn't dare to, no.

19 Q. And did you stay in your mother's house then for the rest of that

20 day?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. Could you tell what was happening outside of the apartment? Did

23 you -- what did you witness from the apartment that was going on outside?

24 A. You mean that day?

25 Q. That day and over the next few days. The first two or three days

Page 4047

1 after war had broken out.

2 A. Sometime in the afternoon, people started driving round in their

3 cars, different people in different uniforms, quite a few people who I did

4 not even know. Actually, we were watching all of this from the windows.

5 I think that on the next day -- was it the next day or was it that

6 evening? In this other street, away from my mother's house, where this

7 restaurant was where we had been, loud applause was heard. This was late

8 in the afternoon. Something to the effect of the, "Army's coming, the

9 army's coming, the army's coming." You could hear that people were being

10 happy on account of that.

11 Now, I don't know. When this transporter or whatever it is called

12 came to the street where my mother's house is, near the house of some

13 certain Crna, Crna Izet, Izet. His son is Sead Crna. I don't know

14 whether he was in the reserve police or whatever, and he had had some kind

15 of an incident. There was a lot of shooting in front of that house.

16 There was a lot of shooting there.

17 I don't know whether this is a transporter or -- whatever you call

18 it. There was a lot of shooting from that transporter. And several days

19 later, the children brought in these long casings, whatever they are.

20 And then with Stojadin cars -- these were people who were not from

21 Samac, because they spoke Ekavian. They were speaking through a

22 loudspeaker. Is that what you call it? And they were calling this Crna

23 to come out. This was a provocation. He wasn't even there.

24 Opposite them is the house of Dusanka, Sead Ristic, Nezirevic.

25 Somebody moved the curtain, and then they started shooting. And they

Page 4048

1 said, "That's where a sniper shooter is." That was often a pretext. When

2 they entered their -- when they entered our houses, they would say that

3 there was a sniper shooter hiding in there.

4 Q. Thank you. And during these few days when you could see activity

5 of vehicles and some people being detained, did you ever see any of the

6 defendants from your window?

7 A. When arms were being collected -- I forgot to say this. That a

8 few hours later on that same day - and thank God that's the way it was -

9 Mr. Izet Izetbegovic came to in front of my mother's house and took that

10 rifle, and he gave me a little pistol, and he left with this.

11 Now, I don't know whether this was two days later or one day later

12 when they were collecting weapons. They were doing all this in a regular

13 sequence. And I saw Mr. Simo Zaric through the window, and Mr. Stojan

14 Blagojevic, that I managed to recognise. They were looking for weapons.

15 My brothers didn't have anything to hand in out of these weapons that were

16 allegedly being distributed.

17 My late brother, my oldest brother, he had a hunting rifle because

18 he was a hunter, and he had legal documents for that. He handed that in

19 to Cvijan Tesic. That was his hunting rifle, and that's what he handed

20 in.

21 Q. Thank you. Whilst you and your family were in the apartment, were

22 you able to receive information as to what was going on outside? Did you

23 have a radio or other communication from outside your apartment?

24 A. Well, let me tell you, very often when they were cautioning us

25 that we should wear our white armbands, they would be driving round in a

Page 4049

1 car and speaking over a Motorola or whatever you call this thing. They

2 were informing us that we should wear these white armbands when we go

3 out.

4 Secondly, my brother worked at the health centre. He would come

5 back and then we'd hear quite a bit about this from him.

6 Q. Thank you. You say that you were told that "we should wear white

7 armbands." Could you explain to us exactly who was expected to wear white

8 armbands?

9 A. Well, let me tell you. I don't know who they meant, but while I

10 was going to the SUP to register there, I would see Muslims, Bosniaks,

11 wearing this, and also Catholics, Croats, wearing these white armbands.

12 Q. Thank you. And could you also explain one other thing to us? You

13 said that the men you had seen around were not from Samac because they

14 spoke Ekavian or with Ekavian accents. Where would that normally mean

15 that they were from? Where was the Ekavian accent from?

16 A. This accent is from Serbia proper.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, I think you've told us that you would be informed

18 that you should wear white armbands if you were to go out. Were there

19 other restrictions put on --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were there other restrictions put on you and others who were

22 living in Bosanski Samac at the time? I'm thinking particularly of the

23 Bosniak and Croat communities.

24 A. Yes. Soon a curfew was imposed. I don't know whether this is

25 customary when there is a war. Then for a while we were not allowed to

Page 4050

1 lock our houses. And also, we were not supposed to socialise, that three

2 non-Serbs were not allowed to be together. More than three, I mean. More

3 than three were not allowed to be together.

4 Q. Thank you. Were you ever given an explanation as to why you

5 weren't allowed to lock your houses or why more than three non-Serbs

6 shouldn't socialise together?

7 A. Well, let me tell you, I had no opportunity of asking for an

8 explanation, because very soon I went through this torture of mine. And

9 apart from that, I'm a coward. So I wouldn't dare ask for explanation.

10 Q. Thank you. Can tell me how long roughly did you stay in the

11 apartment, in your mother's apartment?

12 A. In my mother's apartment, all the time, until I was taken to

13 custody, and later.

14 Q. Now, you've mentioned now that you were taken to custody, and I'll

15 move on to this incident now. About how long after war had broken out

16 were you, as you said, taken into custody?

17 A. The eleventh day of the war.

18 Q. Thank you. And were you taken from your mother's apartment then?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And who came to tell you that you were going to be taken into

21 detention?

22 A. A police car came with five policemen. I knew one of them

23 personally. We are related. His name is -- his last name is Sejdinovic.

24 Naser is his first name. His nickname is Cagar. And these young men are

25 from our neighbourhood. Rather, they are from the rural area there. I

Page 4051

1 wouldn't know their names, but I know their faces.

2 Q. And so how many -- so the five policemen came, and then did they

3 tell you --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- what they wanted you for?

6 A. Sejdinovic said that I was supposed to go in for an interview, to

7 the MUP.

8 Q. And so did they take you then away to the MUP?

9 A. Three went with me to the MUP and two went up to my mother's

10 house. When we came to the car, one of them pushed me. He pressed my

11 head and pushed me into the car. I was already frightened then. I

12 realised that this would not be just an interview.

13 Q. Did they take you directly to the MUP or did you go somewhere

14 else?

15 A. Directly to the MUP.

16 Q. And can you tell us what happened when you arrived at the MUP?

17 Did you -- were you taken into a room to give your details?

18 A. When I came to the MUP, first I had to report at the reception

19 office where Mr. Djurdjevic was. Was Savo his first name, or whatever?

20 He had come from Croatia. He asked me whether I had shoelaces, a belt,

21 whether I had any of my personal documents on me. He knew me personally,

22 but nevertheless he asked for this, and he wrote this down on a piece of

23 paper, that I had reported in.

24 Then he sent me into the hallway. I stood there in the hallway.

25 Different people were passing by, different people in different uniforms:

Page 4052

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6

7

8

9

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15

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18

19

20

21

22

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Page 4053

1 military and camouflage uniforms, and police uniforms, and civilian

2 clothes, quite a few of them that I knew as children; for instance, Nesa

3 Lukic, then Savo Savic, et cetera. They passed by, but nobody paid any

4 attention to me until the moment when Mr. Stevan Todorovic came here. And

5 I'm really sorry that he is not here now. I asked him then, "Stevan,

6 Stevo, what am I doing here?" I still could not realise why I was there,

7 what I had done wrong so that I'd have to be at the police station. His

8 answer was, "Madam --" You said that I shouldn't mention my name, right?

9 But he did address me by my name and surname. "You are going to tell us

10 what we don't know." He turned towards Nesa Lukic and said that he should

11 take me upstairs.

12 While we were walking upstairs, -- oh, yes. While I was in the

13 hallway, horrible screams could be heard from the cellar: crying, moans.

14 As we were walking upstairs, as I was walking, a younger man sort of ran

15 by me, a well-built, big young man, and I noticed these tattoos. I'm

16 scared of that, so I noticed that. I remember that. And he was

17 bloodstained all over, and he was playing like this with a truncheon as he

18 was walking upstairs.

19 As you get off the staircase, there is an office, a room, and

20 that's where he took me in. There was a young girl there, and I wanted to

21 sit down, but this girl wouldn't let me sit down. Soon after that, a girl

22 came. Can I mention her name?

23 Q. Yes, you can mention her name.

24 A. I can't hear you.

25 Q. I'm sorry. Yes, please, you can mention her name if you'd like

Page 4054

1 to.

2 A. Dilista Prcic came. The door opened and Svetlana Ceca Bozic came

3 in and said we should go to a different room. It's a room that looks out

4 towards Croatia. So that very often they would tell us, "Well, we'll let

5 your own people kill you." But I don't understand what they meant,

6 because they couldn't kill me from Croatia, because I'm a Muslim.

7 So we went to this room. It was like a storage room. It was

8 quite large. There was a shelf right here on this side, and on the shelf

9 were various pieces of uniform; and then on one side there was a chair and

10 in the middle there was a mat, a sort of piece of sponge. I don't know

11 how you would call it.

12 While we were there, we could hear the interrogation from the room

13 next door, shouting: "Where did that Ustasha place the minefields? Where

14 are those minefields?" They wanted him to show where they are. The doors

15 were opening and closing. Young men kept coming in to take a uniform or

16 something else. Each time -- this was still all right before we went

17 through this treatment. Sometimes somebody would say something insulting

18 to us.

19 Not long afterwards the door opened and a gentleman came out. He

20 was wearing camouflage trousers and he was wearing a T-shirt, and he

21 called out, "Dilista Prcic." And he had a lot of trouble reading out her

22 name. He had a lot of trouble reading it out. And he spoke with an

23 Ekavian accent and told her to go to another room.

24 I think that not even ten minutes later, much less than that, you

25 could hear horrible moans, swearing, insults. This was really very loud.

Page 4055

1 It was ringing. And I could really hear it very well in the room where I

2 was.

3 Q. Excuse me. Just before you continue, you've said that people who

4 came into your room used to make insults and that you could hear swearing

5 and insults coming from the other room. What sort of insults and swearing

6 was being directed at you and could you hear from the room next door?

7 A. We were -- and this is still pretty good. I apologise to you.

8 They were cursing our balija mothers, Ustasha mothers, Ustasha whores,

9 whores, sluts, and so on. Samac is a very small town, and everybody knows

10 everybody else very well. I, as a woman, would never be called a slut or

11 a whore by any man in Samac, and I was definitely not one.

12 But from that other room, you could hear insults. Probably they

13 were interrogating a Croat, because you could hear, "Ustasha," cursing his

14 Ustasha mother, "Where are the minefields? Where did you place the

15 minefields?" This is what we could hear. And I say it again: I'm very

16 easily frightened. I get scared very easily. So I was very, very

17 afraid. I didn't know, I couldn't even assume what I would experience in

18 a few minutes -- actually, in about an hour.

19 Dilista stayed there for an hour and then they just brought her

20 back into the room where I was. Then they called me out by my first and

21 last name. My name is also difficult to pronounce, so this man had a lot

22 of trouble with it.

23 When I entered that room -- it was quite a large room and there

24 were about 15 men inside the room. They were all wearing different

25 uniforms and there were different people there. I really didn't recognise

Page 4056

1 any of them at that time. At the table, on the left side, there were a

2 few bottles of a drink called Stock. I noticed that because that drink is

3 packed in very nice bottles, so I noticed them. The table was placed

4 underneath the window and the window was open. It was open wide.

5 I don't know how long it lasted. Out of those 15 men were young

6 enough to be my sons [as interpreted]. They were very young. They didn't

7 even have beards. Five of them were young enough to be my sons. Then a

8 few minutes later ten of them left and then five of them and me stayed in

9 that room.

10 There was a cassette player, and it was on, and you could hear a

11 voice which was congratulating me, wishing me a happy Bajram. Our Bajram

12 was on the 5th of April that year, I think. I was in the office, and a

13 friend of mine, a colleague, came in. His name was Mr. Milos Culapovic.

14 And he literally said this to me, even though I don't know whether this

15 was from my cassette or whether it was taped somewhere, but it was, "Good

16 wishes, sent by Josip Pavelic." And he was my cousin and he was wishing

17 me a happy Bajram. So this was what was playing on that tape, these

18 wishes for a happy Bajram to me.

19 At that moment, a man was standing next to me. I think that

20 nobody in this courtroom is as short as he was. He was very short and he

21 was dark-skinned. On my other side was this gentleman, Lugar. I didn't

22 know, but later I found out from Dilista Prcic that this was Lugar. They

23 ordered me to take my clothes off.

24 At that moment when he told me to take my clothes off, I was

25 shocked. I was surprised. Perhaps this lasted for a moment or perhaps it

Page 4057

1 lasted a little longer, but I just stood there without moving next to that

2 table. And he repeated again, "Take your clothes off, whore."

3 I continued to stand there, and then he slapped me and ordered me

4 to take my clothes off again. I had very narrow-fitting trousers, and I

5 thought that I could gain some time. And I was taking them off very

6 slowly, and I tried to fold them neatly, and I placed them on the table

7 which was on my left-hand side. Unluckily for me, at that time, I had my

8 period. So then I also had to take off my underpants, and I did take them

9 off, and I tried to, to arrange or fold it in such a way so that they

10 wouldn't see my sanitary napkin. At that moment, one of them swore, and

11 he said, "You dirty balija," something like that. And it was very

12 insulting. And he took my clothes and threw them in the direction of the

13 door. And he told me to lie down on the table, to spread my legs. It was

14 a desk, a work desk, and it had drawers on the sides.

15 I simply couldn't understand that something like this could ever

16 happen to me in my life, that I would have to lie down on a table in front

17 of five men. At the time that he was ordering me to do this and pushing

18 me towards the desk, this young man, this short man, took out -- I don't

19 know whether he took out a knife from his boot or from his pants. And he

20 stood next to the table and told me to lie in such a way that this knife

21 was resting right underneath my throat and that I couldn't, mustn't move,

22 that I had to stay still.

23 Somebody who was standing behind my back said, "Fifty strokes with

24 a belt," and 50 -- he didn't say a bat, but he used - I don't know - some

25 other term. I don't know which one. But they did hit me with a bat. He

Page 4058

1 didn't say the word "bat." He said something else.

2 The whole time that they were beating me, they were insulting me

3 so terribly that even if I had five more lives, I don't think that I could

4 hear such insults again. It's true that each -- the first time that they

5 hit me, the knife fell. That's true. It flipped over.

6 I was crying. Then they turned up the music so loudly. You could

7 hear this music throbbing above your head. They were insulting me and

8 hitting me.

9 A couple of times I felt really, really weak. I felt sick. And

10 then one of them said that they should cool me off, and he urinated on

11 me.

12 Q. Are you okay? Would you like to take a glass -- do you want to

13 take a sip of water?

14 A. I'm fine. At one moment, I felt sick, and I probably slipped off

15 the table so that as I slipped or I don't know if they turned me, but I

16 was facing the door. At that moment, I saw Mr. Zaric standing at the

17 door. And as Mr. Zaric was standing, a gentleman passed by him who

18 addressed one of these men. He cursed God, and he said, "What are you

19 doing to this woman?" The man was speaking in an Ekavian accent. He was

20 from Serbia proper. And I noticed that as he raised his hand towards this

21 other man, I noticed that he didn't have -- some of his fingers were

22 missing.

23 Mr. Zaric left. I don't know if he did anything or not, but they

24 continued to beat me, probably to -- to strike me 50 blows, which was what

25 they were planning to do.

Page 4059

1 Afterwards, two soldiers pulled me out, dragged me out of this

2 room and took me to the other room, and they laid me down on this mat.

3 Yes. Do you understand what I mean when I say "mat"? This piece of

4 sponge.

5 And this gentleman, Laki, was there again. That's what they said

6 later that his name was. And I would like to thank him a hundred times.

7 He went to get my clothes. While those two soldiers were taking me out,

8 my -- they were taking inside the room my neighbour Barukcic, and across

9 from there I could see Bicic -- no, not Bicic, Dzemal Muric, called

10 Dzemak.

11 Since I had my period, and I had received so many blows and this

12 man had urinated on me as well, I was also covered with blood. And this

13 man, Laki - I don't know his proper name - went to get my clothes, and

14 together with Dilista, they dressed me. I was not feeling very well

15 again. I felt faint. This woman, Dilista, she was a very brave woman.

16 She asked Svetlana Ceca Bozic for a glass of water. However, she didn't

17 permit her to get this glass of water. She said we were prisoners and she

18 could not give us a glass of water.

19 Again this gentleman went out and he brought us water, and then he

20 said, "Madam" -- he didn't know my name. He was asking, "Madam, what did

21 you do so that they are doing this to you?" I don't know what I did. I

22 didn't know to this day what I did. And I'm here mostly in order that

23 somebody here would tell me now what is it that I did wrong so that this

24 happened to me.

25 He went to get us water. The water was in a jar. He said that he

Page 4060

1 had never hit a woman. By "hitting," he probably meant in the way that we

2 were hit. But he said that if we did anything to ourselves, that he would

3 not help us.

4 Q. Thank you. Can I just ask you is to pause there for a minute?

5 And I'd just like to ask you some questions about what you've told us.

6 Okay?

7 A. Go ahead.

8 Q. When you were in the room, you said that you were getting a lot of

9 insults and insults like you'd never heard. Were they the same sort of

10 insults that you had been receiving when you were waiting to be taken into

11 the room where the table was?

12 A. While we were waiting, what we were going through was nothing

13 compared to the insults that you could hear around. It was really

14 something that a normal mind cannot even comprehend. I think really that

15 those people were not normal. Each one of them has a mother. They have a

16 sister. How could they not imagine their mother or their sister perhaps

17 in our place? I don't know.

18 Yes. And I forgot to say while they were hitting me, they kept

19 telling me the whole time that I was cursing their Serbian or Chetnik

20 mother, which is quite impossible, really impossible. This was the

21 beginning of the war. In my ears, in my vocabulary, the word "Chetnik"

22 was something that was really not familiar to me. There was no way I

23 could have cursed somebody's Chetnik mother. They kept saying that I

24 cursed their Serbian, their Chetnik mother. And then they were cursing

25 me, my balija mother and my Ustasha mother. They used all kinds of

Page 4061

1 insults and curses.

2 Q. Thank you. You indicated that at one stage after you had fallen

3 from the table, you looked up to see Simo Zaric at the doorway. Was he in

4 the hallway or the doorway or was he actually in where --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- you were being beaten?

7 A. He was inside the door of the room. So he was inside the room,

8 inside the doorway. That's where Mr. Zaric was standing. I don't know

9 for how long he could have been standing there, because I had my back to

10 the door and they were hitting me for a long time and I was feeling

11 faint. So I just saw him for an instant. But I know that at that moment,

12 since at that time, and now I respect Mr. Zaric very much, I was very much

13 ashamed that he could see me in such -- in such a state. I was bloody. I

14 was naked. It was really, really, ugly.

15 Q. You told us that the person who came in beside Mr. Zaric,

16 Mr. Laki, had said, "What are you doing to this woman?" Did Mr. Zaric

17 ever try to intervene or say anything to the men who were hitting you?

18 A. No, not Mr. Zaric. Yes. Yes. I don't know. Mr. Zaric left, so

19 I don't know whether he intervened somewhere or not, but he didn't

20 intervene while I was in the room. At least I didn't hear it.

21 Q. Can you remember at the time what Mr. Zaric was wearing? Was he

22 in civilian clothes, military clothes?

23 A. When I used to see Mr. Zaric during the war, I would see him in a

24 camouflage uniform, especially at the beginning of the war. I would see

25 him quite often, because I had to report every morning and every evening.

Page 4062

1 I had to report to the MUP or the SUP.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think the question was answered.

3 MS. REIDY:

4 Q. Can you tell me specifically at that time when you saw at the

5 doorway, at the doorway, so not other times that you saw him but when you

6 saw him there in the doorway, can you remember what clothes he was in?

7 A. I really am not able to remember now because I was in such a state

8 that -- really.

9 Q. You've told us that you were eventually taken out of that room and

10 you were --

11 A. Excuse me. Excuse me. In the late afternoon, I would meet

12 Mr. Zaric again at the exit to the MUP, and I saw him then. At that time,

13 he was wearing a camouflage uniform. But at that moment, I'm under oath,

14 and I really am not able to tell you what he was wearing.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, you said that you were taken to -- when you were

16 eventually taken out of the room where the beating occurred, you were

17 placed in a room where Dilista was and that you were helped to dress and

18 given a glass of water.

19 Can you explain to the Chamber --

20 A. No, not then. This gentleman helped me, and Dilista. Yes, two of

21 them.

22 Q. Could you explain to the Chamber how you felt then at that time in

23 the room after you'd gone through this beating?

24 A. There are many women here right now. I don't know if even for a

25 minute you can imagine how a woman feels in a situation where you are

Page 4063

1 completely helpless and you are surrounded by drunken, drugged, and rude

2 people who are humiliating you so much. I felt very, very miserable,

3 really miserable and hurt and humiliated.

4 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, it's coming up to 11.00. I'm going to

5 ask about what happened during the rest of that stay, and rather than go

6 into a detailed discussion, maybe we should make a break.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can have our break and continue our

8 proceedings at 1130 hours.

9 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is continuing.

13 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Q. Welcome back. When we took our break, you were just telling us

15 how you had felt after you had been returned to the room where you were

16 with Dilista now and you had been -- you had your clothes back on and you

17 had been given a glass of water. How much longer did you stay in that

18 room for that day?

19 A. All the time up to the curfew we stayed in that room. Soon after

20 that -- actually, Dilista went out into the hallway, because there was a

21 man called Cedo Simic there who had gone to school with her, and she came

22 back from the hall and she said that Cedo had said to her that they were

23 getting some people ready to go to Brcko, and maybe we would go to Brcko

24 too, she said.

25 Soon after that they came to get Dilista, and she went to the room

Page 4064

1 where she had gone from. She didn't stay long. She came back. She said

2 that she had been questioned by Mr. Dragan Djordjevic and Mr. Simo Zaric,

3 that they were very correct, that they only showed her some lists on which

4 the name of her relative, Sefko Prcic [phoen] was, and they asked her

5 about him. So she returned very soon, as I said.

6 I don't know how much time had gone by. Mr. Stevan Todorovic

7 walked in. Since I could not sit, I was sort of kneeling on that mat. I

8 was leaning on my hands and knees. He passed behind my back and he kicked

9 me in the rear. He looked at me and then he slapped me in the face. And

10 he asked me whether my nose could pierce the sky now, and he said to

11 me -- he addressed me by my name, my first name. He said, "You know, this

12 was not done to you by the Serbs; this was done to you by your own

13 people." That's the way he had put it. And then he left. After --

14 Q. Can I just ask you a question before you continue? You said that

15 Dilista had left the room, and when she came back, she told you that she

16 had been interrogated by a man called Dragan Djordjevic and Mr. Simo

17 Zaric.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Am I correct that this interrogation had taken place after Dilista

20 had received her beatings of 80 lashes?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. And could you also tell me: You said that you

23 couldn't sit and therefore you were kneeling.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was this because you had --

Page 4065

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- wounds on your back?

3 A. It wasn't wounds. Only two days later -- actually, that evening

4 when I arrived - I thought that I would tell you about this later - there

5 was a doctor there, Mesud Nogic, Dr. Mesud Nogic, and Dr. Ruza Brdar

6 Masic, and they examined me. I wanted to tell you about that later, but

7 do you want me to tell you about it now?

8 Q. You can tell us about that later when we get to that. I just

9 wanted to clarify: Was the reason you couldn't sit, was that a direct

10 result of the beatings that you had received in the other room?

11 A. I had been beaten up.

12 Q. Yes. So my understanding is correct, is it, that the reason that

13 you had to kneel down was because you were still so sore on your back from

14 the beatings that the men had given you in the other room?

15 A. Can I answer your question now?

16 Q. Yes, you can.

17 A. The strokes went on for a long time, or rather, I felt their

18 effects for about ten days, at least, that entire part of my body that

19 they had been beating, here above the kidneys. And then the strokes went

20 down all the way to the knees. On the one side this man with the belt was

21 beating me, and on the other side, this man with a bat. So it was like

22 when you're putting cubes one on to another. The strokes just followed

23 one after the other.

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Ms. Reidy, perhaps to clarify if I could ask the

25 witness: Was there a chair in that room that you could have sat on if you

Page 4066

1 had wanted to?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where?

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: The room where you say you were kneeling down and

4 then Mr. Todorovic, you say, kicked you. I'm asking you whether you had

5 to kneel because there was nowhere where you could sit, a chair, for

6 example.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a bench, and we could not

8 sit there, no way. Dilista was kneeling on her knees and was leaning with

9 her hands against this bench. When they threw me in, they threw me onto

10 that mat immediately, that sponge mat. And then when they dressed me,

11 Dilista and Mr. Laki, I remained in that same position, because that's the

12 only position I could sustain.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

14 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

15 Q. Just one follow-up question on that. Was it painful for you to

16 try to move into any other position then?

17 A. Very much so.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. Although while it was still warm, so to speak, it was sort of all

20 right. The real pain came later when it all cooled off.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Now, you've told us that

22 Mr. Todorovic came in and that he kicked you.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You said that Dilista had heard some information that you may be

25 transferred to Brcko with some male prisoners. Were you taken to Brcko

Page 4067

1 with the male prisoners?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I think maybe you didn't answer me. So were you and Dilista

4 actually taken to Brcko?

5 A. No. No.

6 Q. So do you know why you weren't taken to Brcko?

7 A. Since people were coming in and out of that room all the time, the

8 door was open. And at one moment a voice was heard, a voice that was

9 saying precisely this: "If you take," and then they mentioned the name,

10 "then take me as well." Mr. Milorad Aleksic, nicknamed Miso came up to

11 the door. Since the door was ajar, I said, "Miso." I called out to him.

12 However, Miso waved his hand and left. And I thought, my goodness, now

13 even Miso won't help.

14 He went across the hall. After awhile, it was getting dark and

15 that's probably when the curfew was coming up. I don't know whether it

16 was at 7.00 or 8.00. I don't know when the curfew actually started. They

17 came to pick me up, and they said that I was going to see Stevan

18 Todorovic.

19 I came to him. He was sitting at a desk, and there was also a

20 small table there by the side, and there was a man sitting there,

21 Mr. Radovic. Mladen was his first name. He didn't even raise his head.

22 He was probably ashamed to see me there. At least that's the way I take

23 it.

24 Stevan said that we should go home and that from the next day

25 onwards, we should report in the morning at 7.00 and in the evening at

Page 4068

1 7.00 every day. He opened the door, and again he shouted out, he called

2 out the name of this young man, Nesa Lukic. He said that he should drive

3 us, that he should take us in the car. However, Dilista had come with her

4 car.

5 I always say of this woman that she is very brave, exceptionally

6 brave. And she said that a driver did not have to take us, that she would

7 take us. When we came to the car, she opened the door. I couldn't sit

8 down. She had a Renault 4. I was in the back seat, and I was leaning

9 forward, and she said literally, "Now you're going to see how you can sit

10 on the back." Somehow she managed to drive us home, only God knows.

11 The next day she walked, because there was no way she could sit in

12 the car again when we went in the morning to report again.

13 Oh, I'm sorry. As we were getting out of the MUP, at the very

14 door, I met Mr. Simo Zaric, Mr. Savo Cancarevic, and Mr. Radovan Antic.

15 They were getting in. I said at the outset as well that I take Mr. Zaric

16 to be a friend, and that's how I took him then as well. It's a very

17 narrow hallway, and I leaned against him, and Mr. Zaric said to me that I

18 should never say anywhere what I had experienced and why I was beaten up,

19 because I have three brothers. My understanding then was a threat, that

20 that was a threat. I don't know which way Mr. Zaric meant it then.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Can I go back now and ask you some questions

22 about the next -- that portion of your testimony? You mentioned that when

23 you were still up in the room, you'd heard a person with the surname

24 Aleksic, nicknamed Miso, you said.

25 A. Yes. I saw him.

Page 4069

1 Q. Thank you. Do you know what function Miso had in the MUP or in

2 the military?

3 A. I don't know what his position was in the MUP, but Miso was a

4 soldier of the Republika Srpska. At that time, the daughter of my late

5 friend Dzuheric Enes, his daughter Melita Dzuheric came around 12.00 to my

6 mother's home, and my mother said that we -- that they had taken me to the

7 MUP. Melita took her bike to the Savski Most, the bridge on the Sava

8 River, and she found Miso there. Miso is her uncle. And she said to him

9 that they took me to the MUP. By profession, Miso is a land surveyor.

10 Q. Thank you. You said he was a member of the Republika Srpska, I

11 think you said, a soldier of the Republika Srpska.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know what he did as a soldier?

14 A. At that time, they were laying mines by the bridge on the Sava so

15 that the other army would not cross the bridge coming from the other

16 side.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: When you talk of "the other side," what do you mean,

19 Witness, please?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My town is divided only by the Sava

21 River. Croatia is on the other side. And they were probably afraid that

22 this Croatian army might cross the bridge.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

24 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

25 Q. So this Miso, again you said that you heard him say that --

Page 4070

1 something like, "If you take her with me -- if you take her to Brcko, you

2 must take me too."

3 A. Yes. Yes. He was quarreling with someone in the hall.

4 Q. Do you know who he was quarreling with? Could you see that from

5 your room?

6 A. No.

7 Q. But after you heard him quarreling, do I understand that you

8 weren't taken to Brcko then?

9 A. No, we were not taken to Brcko.

10 Q. And I also understand from your testimony that you yourself were

11 never interrogated that day or didn't have to give a statement; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Well, let me tell you, nobody asked me a thing. I was beaten up,

14 insulted, and I never gave any statement to anyone. I have never known

15 what I'm being blamed for and what it is that I had done wrong.

16 Q. You also told us that on the way out, you had passed by three

17 persons, I think it's Savo Cancarevic, Radovan Antic, and Simo Zaric.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At that time, were all three men wearing military uniform?

20 A. Mr. Zaric and Mr. Cancarevic were. As for Mr. Antic, I don't

21 know.

22 Q. Okay. Could you tell whether Mr. Zaric was carrying a weapon or

23 whether he was unarmed?

24 A. I don't know that.

25 Q. Thank you. You said he also said to you not to say ever what had

Page 4071

1 happened to you because that you had three brothers?

2 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly.

3 Q. And you said you took that as a threat.

4 A. That's how I took it.

5 Q. Were you -- did you take the threat seriously? Were you

6 frightened by what he had said?

7 A. Very seriously. I expected Mr. Zaric to react differently. As I

8 said, we were friends. I like Mr. Zaric. I appreciate him. I respect

9 him. And I expected him to react quite differently, because had the

10 situation - heaven forbid - been the other way around, I as a woman

11 certainly would have reacted differently had it been Simo.

12 Q. Thank you. Was that the only thing that passed between you, this

13 threat? He didn't say anything else to you?

14 A. No. No, nothing else.

15 Q. And you didn't say anything back to him after he'd threatened

16 you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you. I understand that Dilista then drove you to your house

19 or your mother's house?

20 A. My mother's house. At my house there were already other people.

21 Q. Could you explain to the Chamber what you mean when you say that

22 at your house there were already other people?

23 A. They had broken into the house. [redacted] [phoen],

24 and her husband. They stayed there for about two months. They only

25 changed the lock on the door. They didn't move a thing. Everything was

Page 4072

1 the way I had left it. They really didn't touch a thing.

2 Once I had the opportunity of meeting [redacted]. She is from

3 Slavonski Samac. I thought she was a Catholic, so I said to her, [redacted]

4 [redacted] [phoen], you a Catholic, me a Muslim. Why did you enter my

5 house?" And as I said to you, they were there for two months, that is,

6 from the moment when they broke into the house, and then two months later

7 the keys were returned to me. They didn't touch a thing. The keys were

8 returned to me.

9 But soon, three or four days later, perhaps, Mr. [redacted]

10 came, who worked in the same company with me. He said to me that I should

11 give him the keys to my apartment of my own free will or that he would

12 come with armed people and throw me out so that he could move into my

13 house. He allowed me to take out the furniture from my living room, and

14 some other things, and then the police came. I think -- actually, it's

15 not that I think. I'm sure that he called the police. And they asked me,

16 where is my warrant, do I have a warrant for taking my things out of my

17 house? And I said that I did not have a warrant, because I was terribly

18 afraid of the police. Since I had experienced what I had experienced, I

19 would have left everything for them there and gone away. However, I did

20 take this part of my things and I left this with [redacted] [phoen],

21 a neighbour of mine, and I left it for safekeeping with him, but I never

22 got it back, actually.

23 Q. Thank you. This person [redacted] [phoen], who you've

24 mentioned --

25 A. [redacted].

Page 4073

1 Q. Thank you very much. I'll call him Dragan. Do you know what

2 ethnic background he had?

3 A. A Serb, a Serb, Orthodox.

4 Q. Thank you. And did you finally find out whether Mandric

5 Bozic -- which ethnic background she had?

6 A. She was Orthodox. There are a few houses that are Orthodox in

7 Slavonski Samac, and she was from one of them. Although I said that these

8 people had really not touched a thing.

9 Q. You said that you didn't get the things back you had left for

10 safekeeping. Did you -- were you ever given any official document from

11 the police who came, or from this [redacted], that showed that he was entitled

12 to have your house or take over your apartment?

13 A. Well, let me tell you: I was not evicted by the official

14 authorities who were then evicting non-Serbs from their homes. I was

15 evicted by [redacted]. He did not have any documents. He didn't show

16 me anything. He just threatened me. And due to his threat, I left. He

17 said to me, since he painted my apartment -- on the 11th of January is the

18 anniversary of the death of my late husband, and I always commemorate that

19 day. This [redacted] was painting my house in January, and then he

20 said to me, when he was evicting me from the apartment, that on the 11th

21 of January he knew that that would be his apartment.

22 Q. Thank you. You said the police had come, though, whilst you were

23 trying to gather some of your possessions. Did they try to stop Dragan

24 evicting you from your apartment?

25 A. No. They prevented me from taking my things.

Page 4074

1 Q. And you also told me that there were the Serb -- I think the Serb

2 authorities who were evicting non-Serbs from their apartments. How did

3 you find out about this information?

4 A. My daughter-in-law was thrown out like that. She was in the same

5 yard together with me. Some people came. [redacted]

6 [phoen] [redacted]. I think her last name was Petkovic. And they

7 told them that they have to leave their homes. They wrote down -- made a

8 list of all their belongings and told them that they had to leave, and

9 this happened to other people in my neighbourhood. They drove them out to

10 Zasavica and further out.

11 Across the street from my mother's house there's a [redacted]family

12 living there, and at that time I saw a barefoot woman, an elderly woman in

13 her 60s, and her husband as well. She was placed in a truck with no shoes

14 and in bare feet, and her husband too, and they were taken to Zasavica

15 like that. I happened to see that, because my movements were restricted,

16 so that I don't know too much about what was happening further out, but I

17 was able to see what was going on in my neighbourhood.

18 Q. Thank you. And these people who were moved to Zasavica, for

19 example, the elderly woman and the man, were they ever told why they had

20 to leave their houses and why they were being put on trucks and forced

21 into Zasavica?

22 A. Let me tell you: I don't know what they were told, because I

23 didn't talk to them. Those people went to Zasavica. But I know about my

24 sister-in-law, because this happened in our yard. My sister-in-law was

25 still there, and they told her that they were going to take her to

Page 4075

1 Zasavica the next day. And somebody moved in to her first floor, and she

2 spent that night in her -- on the ground floor of her place, and that

3 night she was there, but then the next day she went to Zasavica and then

4 further on.

5 There were six families in one kitchen [as interpreted] In

6 Zasavica. There was my mother; myself; my mother's sister; my brother's

7 mother-in-law, also who was expelled; my aunt, who had been expelled from

8 her house; my cousin. There were five of us, five families who had all

9 been expelled from our homes. [redacted]

10 [redacted]. These were all families who were

11 expelled from our homes. They were not expelled by anybody in authority,

12 while I was expelled by Dragan.

13 Q. Can I just ask you to clarify one or two things? I don't

14 understand, and it may be a problem just with the transcript which I see

15 in front of me. You said that there were -- the transcript says that you

16 said there were six families in one kitchen in Zasavica. Do you mean

17 there were six families --

18 A. No. No.

19 Q. Could you then tell us -- [Microphone not activated]

20 A. No. No. No. I didn't say "in Zasavica." [redacted]

21 [redacted]."

22 Q. So when you say that your mother, yourself, your mother's sister,

23 your brother's mother-in-law, and your aunt and your cousin were all

24 together in one family -- in one kitchen, you mean they were all evicted

25 from their houses [redacted]?

Page 4076

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2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4077

1 A. No, no, no, no, no. I didn't say "kitchen." I said "in [redacted]

2 [redacted] house."

3 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. And then the other thing I'd just

4 like to clarify is: You said that while you were expelled by [redacted], they

5 were not expelled by anyone in authority. Do you mean that they were

6 expelled by someone in authority or that they were not expelled by someone

7 in authority?

8 A. No. I was not expelled by anybody in power. I was expelled by

9 [redacted], while all the others were expelled -- my mother's sister

10 is an old woman in her 70s. She is 77 or 78. She was that age at the

11 time. She wasn't able to go to Zasavica. She had a broken hip, so she

12 was staying at my mother's house. Dika Cehajic, she is also an elderly

13 woman of 62, 63 at that time. She was expelled from her flat. She was in

14 Zasavica, and then from Zasavica, through some connection of hers, she was

15 released. So she was also staying at my mother's house. She was with

16 us. Risaha Jusufovic, he was expelled. He was expelled by the

17 authorities. He received a warrant to leave, an order to leave his

18 house. He was living in my mother's house, and I was also living in my

19 mother's house, and of course my mother.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Now, I think I understand your living

21 situation at that moment in terms of where you were staying and why you

22 couldn't return to your own apartment. Could you please now tell us what

23 happened after you arrived home that first evening from the SUP after

24 Dilista had brought you back in her car.

25 A. Before I came back home, my mother knew more or less what happened

Page 4078

1 to me, because [redacted], my neighbour, my mother's first

2 neighbour, was passing by. He had been at the SUP and then he heard from

3 some young people who were downstairs at the building that two mature

4 women were beaten up, and he knew before that that we had been taken in.

5 So that even -- so when I got home, my mother didn't even ask anything.

6 She was crying, and of course I was crying together with her.

7 Shortly afterwards, Dr. Mesud Nogic came by. He examined me a

8 little bit. He lifted up my top, and he looked. He also took down my

9 lower clothes to see how I was. And then he said he was going to the

10 health centre, to the medical centre, and that he would send something for

11 me so that I could make dressings and place them on my back. I think it

12 was Rivanol or something like that.

13 Shortly after Dr. Nogic left, Dr. Ruza Brdar Masic came, and she

14 brought me those things that I could use to make dressings, and she could

15 also -- and she also brought me a couple of sedatives so that I could have

16 them for that evening. And she asked me, woman to woman, whether I had

17 been sexually abused. I wasn't, and I always say, "Thank God." In spite

18 of all the bad things that happened to me, that was one bad thing that I

19 didn't have to go through. However, after receiving all those blows, I

20 stopped having my period for eight months. I did not get my period for

21 another eight months.

22 We slept at the house of [redacted], in view of the fact

23 that Mr. Zaric told me that I shouldn't talk about what happened

24 anywhere. There were plenty of people in that shelter. This was some

25 kind of shelter. At night, I would wait. I think there were 15 of us or

Page 4079

1 maybe more at this shelter. I would wait for everybody to go to sleep.

2 My mother would bring a wet towel, and then we would place wet towels on

3 my injuries so that they could be -- that I could have some relief from

4 the pain. After seven or eight days, the bruises were black, really

5 black, black like soil, from the blows.

6 The next day, I went early in the morning to report. And this is

7 how things went on until November. I would report in in the morning and

8 in the evening.

9 Ninety per cent of the time that I would go to the MUP, I would

10 experience something really bad when I would go to report in.

11 Q. Can I just ask you a question before you tell us about your

12 experience when you were reporting to the MUP? You said that you had a

13 visit from Dr. Ruza Brdar Masic. Did the doctor help you

14 psychologically as well as for your physical injuries?

15 A. By nature, I am - and I always say this about myself - I'm easily

16 frightened and I'm afraid. I lost my husband when I was very young. My

17 husband was very seriously ill. So that I am very much afraid. I'm an

18 easily frightened person. I'm a religious person by birth and by choice.

19 So when I came back from the SUP, I really felt that life wasn't worth

20 living. I had been sickened by life.

21 However, after Dr. Nogic left, and Dr. Ruza Brdar Masic came and

22 we were talking, at one point she said to me, and probably I told her that

23 I was afraid that I could do something to myself, she told me that

24 compared to her, I hadn't had such a difficult time. When -- when she

25 told me that and I looked at her, and I thought this woman must be crazy.

Page 4080

1 How can she say something like that to me? But then she explained to me.

2 "Can you imagine how I feel when they start to insult me like that and

3 they say, `Look at this handsome Bula,' or when they swear at me and curse

4 me as a Bula, when they insult me? And I happen to be a Catholic and I

5 dare not say I'm a Catholic."

6 So this gave me some strength. It really gave me some strength.

7 I thought, Well, perhaps she's right. At least I know I'm a Muslim. And

8 they cursed my balija mother. And when he was throwing my underwear, he

9 said, "Dirty Turkish underwear." And there was no question that it could

10 be dirty. It wasn't.

11 So then I understood perhaps I didn't have it so bad as Dr. Ruza

12 did, because she wasn't allowed. She didn't dare to say how things really

13 were.

14 She did a lot of good things to all of us. She helped us out the

15 whole time, together with Dr. Nogic. She supplied me with sedatives. I

16 was taking a lot of sedatives, because after what happened to me, I really

17 didn't feel quite right. I simply couldn't have survived without those

18 sedatives.

19 Q. Just for the record, you used the term "Bula." Is that an

20 insulting term or reference to Muslim?

21 A. Let me tell you, all of these things were so new at that time, at

22 the beginning of the war, the words "Chetnik," "Bula," "Fuck your Turkish

23 mother." Things like that. There's no way I could be Turkish. There's

24 absolutely no way. I couldn't be a Bula. I couldn't be a Balinka. So

25 that those who said that, they thought it was a disparaging, an insulting

Page 4081

1 term, and this is what they used to insult us.

2 Q. And just again to clarify, it was supposed to be insulting for

3 Muslim people; is that correct?

4 A. Well, "Bula" should really mean "a woman," "woman." Dr. Ruza

5 Brdar Masic is a very attractive woman, a beautiful woman. So I don't

6 know. If somebody called me a Bula and since I'm a Muslim, I would not be

7 insulted. But Mrs. ^ Ruza Brdar Masic, who happens to be a Catholic, was

8 definitely insulted by this term.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, that was that evening. Now, you said that you --

10 after that evening, you had to start reporting every day to the MUP. What

11 exactly -- when you say "reporting," what did you have to do?

12 A. Each morning, regardless if there was shelling or not, and at that

13 time there was shelling quite often, I had to go to the MUP at 7.00 a.m.

14 to show myself and for them to take my name down. And every evening at

15 7.00 also I had to report in.

16 Q. And you began to say that often when you went to report that it

17 wouldn't be very pleasant. Could you tell us in what way it wasn't

18 pleasant when you had to go give your name in?

19 A. Well, it depends. For example, during the weekend, some young men

20 from the outside would come in. They wore different kinds of uniform.

21 They would happen to be in different moods.

22 The very fact that you entered the MUP meant that each time you

23 could hear moans. The TO was right across the street from the MUP. These

24 were all my co-citizens, people that I knew from around town. So you

25 would see bruises on their faces. You couldn't say anything to them, and

Page 4082

1 they couldn't say anything back to you. Fear is more powerful than

2 anything else.

3 One day, for example, we were going in to report. At the door --

4 at the entrance to the MUP there was a driver [redacted]

5 [redacted]and who used to be a very nice man. [redacted].

6 And he was rocking back and forth in his chair, and his legs were

7 stretched out towards the door, in the direction of the door. And I said

8 to him, "Hello [redacted]," and he said, "Go back three steps and greet me in

9 a way that is fitting for a Serbian soldier."

10 My mother is a village [redacted], so that women from the country,

11 from villages, would come into my mother's house. So that you would hear

12 the expression Pomoz' bog very often in my mother's house because elderly

13 Serbian women would come into her house. So this Serbian greeting was not

14 new to me. But at that moment, I could not remember, and I was -- I had a

15 block. I couldn't remember how I was supposed to greet him.

16 Behind me, together with us, there was a young man whose name was

17 Ado Harcinovic. He was a young man, and he understood right away, and he

18 said, "Pomoz' bog unaca. Hail to you, courageous man." And this helped

19 us pass by so that we could go in and report.

20 I remember when people came from Novi Grad through Bosnia and some

21 of them arrived at the police station, then it happened a couple of times

22 there that on our way in, they would point a rifle at us, at our chest,

23 cursing our mother, calling us Balinka. These were normal, usual insults,

24 so that I got used to it and didn't even react any more when somebody

25 insulted me.

Page 4083

1 In July, I was beaten once again. I came to report in, and I

2 did. There was a young man of about 20 at the reception office, and he --

3 his name was Zoran. And when I reported in, I don't know how exactly it

4 happened, but he hit me below my knees, in the backs of my knees, so that

5 I fell to my knees. And then he grabbed me into the hall by my chest, and

6 he started to kick me. It was a small corridor. He was literally kicking

7 me in this small corridor. The door to the reception office was open, and

8 I could see an older citizen of Samac. His name was Alojzije Bah, and he

9 used to be an electrician.

10 The room next door to the reception office, somebody shouted out,

11 "Zoran." So this young man left. And I just remained in this hall,

12 kneeling and expecting him to come back and to continue to hit me.

13 However, a gentleman came by. Just one moment. Boro Savic. He used to

14 be an interrogator at the MUP, and he was a friend of my friend from

15 school. And he leaned down and he just said, "Run, [redacted]." And I don't

16 know where I found the strength, but I simply got up and I ran out so that

17 I wasn't beaten any more.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, there is a small intervention, and I

20 think the interpreters can help us. It's page 51, line 12.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

22 MR. PANTELIC: The witness stated that there is an expression in

23 B/C/S language called -- in this particular line is Pomoz' bog, which is a

24 little bit strange that this quite simple expression was not translated by

25 our learned friends from interpretation booths. Actually, "Pomoz' bog,"

Page 4084

1 in B/C/S language means, "So help you God." I mean, it's very simple.

2 So I just need this clarification, because it is not appropriate

3 to be in the transcript this original form of this expression. So I mean,

4 maybe for the whole picture that this Trial Chamber should have about the

5 events in Samac, I think our that friends from the translation booth

6 should intervene with this particular expression. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps counsel for the Prosecution can clear

8 that with either the witness or the interpreters.

9 MS. REIDY:

10 Q. I'd just like you to help us, if you can just clarify something.

11 I believe you said that when Serbian women would come to your mother's

12 house, you would hear an expression they would use when they -- when they

13 arrived. And again taking into account my pronunciation, I believe the

14 expression was Pomoz' bog. Could you let us know what --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- that expression means. Or could the interpreters please give

17 us a translation of the expression?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Ask the witness first what she understood by

19 that. I'm sure she has heard what Mr. Pantelic has said.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you. This is something that

21 was used before the war. A lot of elderly Serbian women would come to my

22 mother's house because my mother was the village [redacted]. And the

23 women -- a seamstress. So when they would come in, they would use their

24 greeting, Pomoz' bog, and it was "God be with you." And it was something

25 that was quite normal to me. I would hear that greeting from the time

Page 4085

1 that I was a child.

2 MS. REIDY:

3 Q. Thank you. I think that is now clear, what that expression

4 means. And can I then just clarify? Was that the expression that you

5 were expected to use to the guard on the reception when you arrived?

6 A. Yes. We were supposed to say that. Well, the young boy used this

7 greeting, "God be with you, Serbian hero."

8 Q. Thank you. So can I just clarify? He used that phrase and then

9 also added to it, "Serbian hero," is that correct?

10 A. I didn't, but this young man, Ado Harcinovic, this is how he

11 greeted this man. And then he moved his legs so that we could pass by.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I think it's now clear.

13 MS. REIDY: Thank you. Please bear with me while I try to find

14 the last place in the transcript. Thank you.

15 Q. Now, before we had that clarification, you had explained on one

16 occasion how you were again kicked. You said at the beginning of your

17 testimony that when you used to come to report, you would sometimes see

18 Simo Zaric; is that correct?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. Would you see him in the streets or in the building of the SUP, or

21 whereabouts would he be when you'd see him?

22 A. I saw Mr. Zaric at the SUP when he would arrive there, when he was

23 there, but we didn't have any contact. Sometimes I would see him in the

24 car, on the street. But let me say it once again: My movements were

25 restricted, so I knew about what was going on in the town only as far as I

Page 4086

1 was able to see on my trips to the MUP and back.

2 Q. Thank you. And at any other stage on your trips to the MUP and

3 back, did you see or observe any of the other defendants: Mr. Miroslav

4 Tadic or Mr. Milan Simic or Mr. Blagoje Simic?

5 A. I never saw Dr. Blagoje -- Mr. Blagoje Simic in Samac. I would

6 see Mr. Tadic in the car. I didn't have any interaction with him. I saw

7 him in the car maybe once or twice. And I think, even though it's not

8 really clear to me, that when he sent me once to the department

9 store -- there were two men called Brko in Bosanski Samac. They

10 called -- Brko is -- they call Brko Mr. Tadic, and also Enes Djuheric is

11 called Brko. One time he sent me to the department store, and my mother

12 came with me, and there was a water fountain there, and my mother went to

13 see if there was any water there, because at the time I weighed only 42

14 kilos, so I felt very faint. However, this water fountain was not

15 working.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. It happened for the second

18 time in the transcript. Actually, the witness had said that she didn't

19 feel well, and the transcript says, "He sent me to the department store."

20 And she said, "When I was near the department store, I wasn't feeling

21 well." And it is page 55, number 10, and before that, it's -- yes, it's

22 number 7, yes.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: So the responses of the witness were not being

24 completed.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, but it happened twice already. The witness has

Page 4087

1 said, "I didn't feel well," and it was translated, "He sent me." That is

2 why I objected.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. Thank you.

4 Please, you heard counsel, Ms. Reidy. Can you deal with that,

5 please.

6 MS. REIDY: Certainly. It did seem a bit strange.

7 Q. Again, we're having a technical problem, so could you explain to

8 us: Was it that on an occasion you were going to the department store and

9 that you didn't feel well on the way to the department store? Is that how

10 the beginning -- is this how this story begins?

11 A. No. You made a mistake. The gentleman is right. I said that as

12 I was going to the MUP to report there, by the department store I started

13 feeling unwell, and across the street from the department store there is a

14 water fountain. My mother crossed the street to get her hands wet so that

15 she could wash my face. However, the water fountain wasn't working.

16 There was no water there. And that's when I saw Mr. Tadic in the car.

17 And I still don't know whether it was Mr. Tadic who helped me then, as

18 Brko, or this other one, Djuheric. But whoever it was, a thank-you to

19 that person. At any rate, I went to the MUP, I reported there, and I went

20 home, my mother and I.

21 Sometime around 7.00 a car stopped. Mr. Simo Zaric came with his

22 driver. Mr. Teso Tutnjevic, Teso Tutnjevic, came to my mother's house.

23 And he said, straight from the door -- he addressed me by my name and he

24 said, "What's with you?" And I said to him, "Simo, I cannot report any

25 more. Let them do whatever they want, let them kill me, but I cannot go

Page 4088

1 there and report any more." Mr. Zaric then said, "Brko had just told me

2 that he had seen you and that you were not feeling well."

3 So I always wonder -- I very often wonder whether it was Mr. Tadic

4 or whether it was Mr. Djuheric, but whoever it was, a thank-you to that

5 person, and thank you to Mr. Zaric as well. I did not have an opportunity

6 of thanking him earlier, because I did not see him in Samac, and I indeed

7 thank him for that. And he said, "Well, what do you mean, [redacted]? What

8 kind of reporting?" And I said, "Simo, I cannot go to the MUP any more to

9 report there." And Mr. Zaric -- I don't know whether it was a Mobitel or

10 whatever, a mobile phone. At that time I didn't know that mobile phones

11 existed, or what -- the thing that the military have, whatever. He put a

12 number in there and he called the MUP and he said, "From this day onwards,

13 Mrs. --" And then he said my name and surname, " -- is not supposed to

14 report any more. If you need her, she is at the street of [redacted]

15 [redacted] And thank God almighty that I did not have to go to the MUP

16 anymore. However, he told me then that I should not leave the yard, that

17 I should be there, that I should be around.

18 Q. Thank you. Could I then just clarify one thing? You said that

19 someone called Brko, and you're not sure which Brko it is, helped you. Do

20 you mean you learnt that later or do you mean that whilst you were feeling

21 ill they actually approached you and assisted you at that moment?

22 A. No. I told you: When Mr. Zaric came, he said that Brko had told

23 him that he had seen me and that I was not looking very well, that I was

24 feeling unwell. And Mr. Miroslav Tadic -- I mean, then, when my mother

25 went to get her hands wet so that she could wash my face, a car passed by,

Page 4089

1 and I thought, I believed, that it was Mr. Tadic. And I told you that I

2 know two men in Samac who are nicknamed Brko. I know Mr. Tadic only in

3 the sense that we say "good day, good day" to each other, and this Brko is

4 a friend who calls it my home [as interpreted], so I really don't know who

5 out of the two helped me and sent Mr. Zaric.

6 Q. Thank you. And when Mr. Zaric arrived at your house, he was able

7 to call someone and stop the reporting to the MUP there and then?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. Did you ever get any other calls or inquiries from the police

10 station as to why you were no longer reporting after that?

11 A. No. No. I never had any other calls. Nobody ever came looking

12 for me. Once when I went to report - actually, I was supposed to go in

13 and report - there was shelling and I was half an hour late with my

14 reporting. The police came to check where we were. However, from then

15 onwards, nobody came again.

16 Q. But you said that -- so you didn't have to report, but Mr. Zaric

17 instructed you not to leave your mother's yard, was it?

18 A. Not to go out; to be there.

19 Q. Thank you. Could you -- you said that this happened an evening,

20 and after you had been feeling unwell on one trip to the MUP. Do you know

21 roughly when this was? Could you tell us which month this was?

22 A. November. It was November.

23 Q. So do I take it that you had been going every day to the MUP in

24 the morning and the evening for six months up until then?

25 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, your understanding is correct. People had

Page 4090

1 already stopped reporting. This young man, Ado Harcinovic, he had swum

2 across. Dilista was wounded once, and then she didn't report. Hasan

3 Izetbegovic also did not report any more. Then Lamija -- may I proceed?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Again, a short intervention. It is the 58 page

6 [Microphone not activated] --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone, yes.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry. This is page 58. It's -- sorry. It is

10 line 24. "Dilista was wounded once." But the witness said, "Dilista was

11 wounded once due to the shelling." Just for a clarification, please.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel. Can you deal with that, please?

13 MS. REIDY: Certainly. I'll deal with two matters.

14 Q. The first one is: You said Dilista was wounded once. How was she

15 wounded?

16 A. A shell had fallen into the house, or rather, in front of the

17 house, where her sister was and where she was. And she had perhaps just

18 gotten out in order to go to report, and then she was wounded by shrapnel.

19 Q. Thank you. And you also said that the young man, Ado Harcinovic,

20 had swum across, I guess, a river. Could you just clarify which river he

21 swam across? It doesn't appear on our record.

22 A. The Sava. The Sava River.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Now I'd like to ask you: During May to

24 November you were reporting daily to the MUP. Were you the only member of

25 your family who was reporting on a daily basis to the MUP?

Page 4091

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What about your three brothers and their families? Did they have

3 to report? Did they have to do something else or were they just sitting

4 at home in the apartment?

5 A. This is the way it was: [redacted]

6 [redacted]. That's what he did before the war, before the war and

7 during the war.

8 My other brother had a work obligation, together with his two

9 sons. His orientation was that of a pure Yugoslav. That was his

10 conviction as well. He was mistreated in different ways, and he passed

11 judgement on himself. He committed suicide. He simply couldn't take it

12 any longer. He couldn't take the worrying any longer, that his children,

13 his two sons, went out for trench digging every day. He worked at a

14 carpentry shop. He made chests. He is a carpenter. He couldn't take it

15 any more. He passed judgement on himself. My youngest brother was in

16 Orasje, at Domaljevac, at the front line there. He was a member of the

17 HVO.

18 My middle brother worked at that moment, until my mother and I

19 left Samac. When we left, I heard that he started drinking heavily, that

20 he lost his job, that he lost his apartment. He went to dig trenches

21 towards Brcko; at least, that's what they told me. I don't know about

22 that. That's what others told me. I was in contact with Dr. Ozren

23 Stanimirovic, and he said to me that at Pelagicevo, my brother had lost

24 his way in a forest. However, other people said that he tried to escape,

25 that he tried to go across to the other side. He was beaten up very badly

Page 4092

1 there, and from there he was transferred to Pelagicevo. Dr. Stanimirovic

2 brought him to Samac from Pelagicevo. I say once again: These are the

3 stories that I heard from others, because at that time I was not in

4 Samac. I don't know whether it all went that way.

5 Then he was brought to Samac, and then he spent some time at the

6 internal medicine ward, and then they brought him to my mother's cellar,

7 and then he felt sick there again. They took him to hospital in Doboj,

8 where he died, and on the next day probably, he was buried in Samac.

9 Q. Thank you. I take it that whilst you were in Samac, that your two

10 nephews were forced to go out to dig trenches.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that eventually your other brother who died in Doboj was also

13 required to dig trenches and ...

14 A. Yes, that's what they told me. A man who was with me said that to

15 me. [redacted]. He was there. He was there where this

16 brother of mine had lost his way and was beaten up. That's what this man

17 told me.

18 Q. After you stopped reporting to the MUP but you were required to

19 stay in your mother's apartment, did you or your mother make any attempts

20 to get out of Samac, to have you escape from Samac?

21 A. My mother left. First of all, it took me some time to get used to

22 the fact that I didn't have to go in and report. At that time I was in

23 pretty bad health. It took me a while to rest up. Then my mother went to

24 the local commune to try to register me so that I would go for an

25 exchange. And then my mother was told that I am wanted by the HVO from

Page 4093

1 Osijek. That's what somebody said. Oh, no. Sorry. Caritas, Caritas,

2 that they were asking for me, that they were asking for me to be

3 exchanged.

4 Mr. Mirza Vajsovic was at the local commune then, a man that I

5 grew up with, and we were together all our lives. And he asked my friend

6 Nukic Mina, who also had to go for work obligation, [redacted]

7 [redacted]?" However, she was afraid that this might be a work obligation,

8 and she motioned with her hand towards the Sava River, and his

9 understanding of that was that I swam across and that I went to Croatia.

10 And then the answer that was sent was that I was not in Bosanski Samac.

11 Later on, when my mother went to register me, the exchanges had

12 actually stopped. There were very few exchanges at that point. Then we

13 bought two Serb IDs. We paid them 500 Deutschmark each. We paid the

14 woman who drove us 400 Deutschmarks. She took us to Backi Breg. She

15 drove us there. And then we went across to Hungary. I spent seven months

16 there and then returned to Gradacac.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Can I go back to the time before you managed

18 to acquire these Serb IDs?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: And also can you type out what month, if she can

20 remember, when her brother committed suicide.

21 MS. REIDY:

22 Q. Perhaps you could answer the -- your -- the Judge's question

23 first.

24 A. Yes. The 31st of June.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

Page 4094

1 MS. REIDY:

2 Q. Could you just -- which -- was this 1992 or later?

3 A. 1993.

4 Q. So it was the 31st of June, 1993?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. And you were still in Bosanski Samac at this time?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Ms. Reidy, just a technical question. There is

9 no 31st of June. June is one of the months with only 30 days. Can we

10 just correct that with the witness, do you think?

11 MS. REIDY: Certainly.

12 A. 31st of May. I beg your pardon. We Muslims have a holiday,

13 Kurban Bajram. It was precisely that day when he committed this.

14 MS. REIDY:

15 Q. Thank you. So it was the month of May in 1993 when this

16 happened.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Were you ever told or was your mother ever told that

19 you would be tried by the new Serbian courts or by the new Serbian law?

20 A. In the neighbourhood, in my mother's neighbourhood, a young man

21 got killed, a 18-year-old child, Nurkic Dzevad. His funeral was held, the

22 Dzenana. My mother went. When people were gathering there for the

23 religious ceremony, the Dzenana, she saw Mr. Pesarovic, and he was with

24 Mr. Mersup Serapovic and Ralje [phoen]. Since -- we all like

25 Mr. Pisarevic. He was always kind and helpful to Bosniaks and Croats. He

Page 4095

1 with part of his family. I would like to mention his sister Dragica as

2 well and her husband.

3 My mother walked up to him and asked him, asked him about me.

4 Mr. Pisarevic then said that the court was supposed to move from Modrica

5 to Samac and there would be no problem, that I would be tried there, that

6 there wouldn't be any problems, that I would be tried. But there's no

7 indictment. They never indicted me for anything.

8 Q. So you were never given any explanation as to what you would be

9 given a fair trial for?

10 A. No. Only that I was cursing Chetnik and Serb mothers.

11 Q. Thank you. And --

12 A. That's why I was beaten up. That's why I lived through what I

13 lived through.

14 I just want to say something else, please. Sometimes it would

15 happen as we would go to the MUP, very often when Mr. Jovanovic, Zoran was

16 on duty, when it was his shift, and when these other men came for the

17 weekend, and we were especially afraid when we saw them with those black

18 banners with a white skull on it. I don't know why, but we were always

19 very frightened of that.

20 This young man would come out in front of the MUP door, and as we

21 were coming up, when we would get to the reception office of the municipal

22 assembly in Samac, he would wave off like this and show some -- show this

23 sign, meaning that he would write it down that we had reported.

24 Q. Yes.

25 MR. REIDY: Could the record show that the witness waved her hand

Page 4096

1 in the air and made a motion sign like as if she was writing something on

2 a piece of paper.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Uh-huh.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's what he would show us.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And she has explained what that meant to her,

6 and she --

7 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

9 MS. REIDY:

10 Q. And do I take this to mean that there were people who worked in

11 the authorities who were willing to help people like you and others who

12 were subjected to obligations to report or forced labour, that there were

13 some people in authority who would help?

14 A. Well, I don't know about the authorities, but as far as this young

15 man is concerned, he worked there at the reception office. But I know

16 that there are some people, when I have to put it this way, Serbs who --

17 who really remained human beings. I mean, human beings. Who really

18 wanted to help, who never changed.

19 For example, Pero Vasiljevic and his wife Slavica. Then Mr. Mitar

20 Dudukovic and his wife Persa. These are old people from a village

21 Kruskovo Polje near Samac. And then Mitar would take a motorbike on

22 Wednesdays to bring things to my mother. I don't know. Potatoes, beans,

23 whatever was needed.

24 It happened to him that at the checkpoint, they would make him

25 take this out. [redacted]."

Page 4097

1 That's what they called my mother. And this was an old man of about 70.

2 He would then take his little motorbike through the ploughing fields and

3 come and bring this to my mother.

4 And then Cvijan Danicic and his wife Dragica, they were always

5 there to help you, to help out. We were afraid when we would have money

6 to go to shop in the store, because it would happen that people would be

7 beaten up for a hundred Deutschemark in the evening. This happened in my

8 yard. [redacted],

9 [redacted]. So everybody was afraid. There were

10 people who wanted to help.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. I'm sorry. Begging your pardon. I have to say this. Dr. Joka

13 Savic, a lady doctor. I should by no means forget to mention her.

14 Q. Thank you. And can I ask? Did you yourself or did your mother

15 ever approach any of the other defendants, Mr. Milan Simic or Mr. Blagoje

16 Simic, for help or assistance?

17 A. Mr. Blagoje Simic. I never asked him for anything, or Mr. Tadic,

18 or Mr. Zaric, although finally Mr. Zaric helped me. However, my mother

19 once went to see Milan at the municipality when my apartment was broken

20 into. However, Mr. Milan Simic said that he was powerless in that

21 respect, that he could not help her with that. I don't know if he

22 remembers that.

23 Q. Thank you, you said that your mother went to the municipal

24 building to ask Mr. Simic to intervene when your apartment was broken

25 into. Why the municipality building?

Page 4098

1 A. Well, Mr. Simic was there.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I'm sorry. The whole

4 part, about three sentences, were not in the transcript about Milan Simic,

5 because the witness was saying that her mother went to see Milan Simic and

6 all that, but I don't see it in the transcript at all. Because it says,

7 "My mother once went to see Milan at the municipality ."

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. There is a mistake. Yes. Yes. I'm

9 sure has noticed that the transcript doesn't appear to be correct.

10 MS. REIDY:

11 Q. Yes. Can I -- could I ask you to go back a little bit? And we

12 need to just hear your answer again about what your mother did because

13 there's a mistake on our record. So I had asked you whether your mother

14 had approached anybody, and I think you said that your mother had

15 approached someone. Could you please repeat what your mother had done?

16 Thank you.

17 A. My mother went to the municipality to ask Milan if he could help

18 so that my apartment would not be broken into. With my mother went

19 Ljubomir Mijanic. Ljubomir Mijanic brought my mother there. However,

20 Milan [Realtime transcript read in error "Ljubomir"] said to me that he

21 was -- said to my mother that he was powerless, that he could not help me,

22 although at that time he had this duty, this position at the executive

23 council. He did hold some kind of a position.

24 Q. Thank you. Do you know exactly which position he held in the

25 executive counsel?

Page 4099

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The problem is still there. Mr. Zecevic.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. The witness has said her

3 mother went with a person name Mijanic. "Brought my mother there.

4 However, Ljubomir said to my mother that he was powerless." Which

5 Ljubomir?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: And yet it was "Milan."

7 MR. ZECEVIC: "That he could not help me," and that is exactly

8 what the witness did not say. The witness said that Milan said he

9 couldn't -- he said, "I cannot help you," or something like in -- in --

10 something like that, not that he wouldn't help. I mean, this is

11 really ...

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, and it's important that --

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course. It is --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: -- the evidence be --

15 MR. ZECEVIC: -- important, and this is happening --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: -- corrected.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: -- for the fourth time now in five minutes. Thank

18 you, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It is causing concern, actually, and I'm

20 wondering why this is happening like this.

21 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: It is important that we have a correct version of

23 the evidence from the witness. And this is not a matter where we can

24 simply say the audio unit will correct it. It better be corrected now.

25 MS. REIDY: Yes, of course Your Honour. It's a concern for us

Page 4100

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Page 4101

1 too. So I can only follow it -- I'll try to keep a closer eye on the

2 transcript, but --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I am aware that it's not your problem.

4 MS. REIDY: No, but I will -- what I will do -- it is 1.00, but I

5 think we should try to correct this now and then we cold take our break.

6 I'll --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think let's correct it while it's fresh.

8 MS. REIDY:

9 Q. I'm sorry. I'm going to have to ask you again. In the -- you

10 went -- your mother went to the municipality building to ask for help when

11 your apartment was broken into. Could you say very clearly and slowly,

12 and if you can give the first and the second name, who she spoke to and

13 what that person said? Thank you.

14 A. My mother went to the municipality to see Mr. Milan Simic.

15 Ljubomir Mijanic went with my mother. My mother asked Milan to help her

16 so that the breaking in would stop. Milan said that he was powerless,

17 that he was powerless, that he could not do anything about that.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. REIDY: May I just ask one last question before the break?

20 Just -- it was in that sequence.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

22 MS. REIDY:

23 Q. You had said that -- you had previously said, "But however, Milan

24 had held a position on that executive council." Do you know that Milan

25 Simic held a position with the authorities?

Page 4102

1 A. I don't know what position he had, but I knew that he was highly

2 positioned, that he was in some high position in the municipality.

3 MS. REIDY: Thank you very much, and I think I've finished for

4 now.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll adjourn and continue our proceedings at 1530

6 hours.

7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.

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Page 4103

1 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is continuing.

3 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Good afternoon.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. This morning we had, I think, gone quite a bit through your

7 testimony of what happened to you in Bosanski Samac in 1992, and you had

8 said that you had eventually acquired two Serbian identity cards and had

9 paid someone to drive you, and you had then left Bosanski Samac and

10 eventually arrived, I think you said, in Hungary. Could you tell us when

11 this was, when approximately this happened?

12 A. In January 1994.

13 Q. Thank you. And then I think you said you stayed there for a

14 number of months and then you returned to Gradacac.

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Since you left Bosanski Samac, have you remarried?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And do you have any children from this marriage? You don't need

19 to mention any names.

20 A. Yes. I have two.

21 Q. And are you still living in Gradacac?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Where do you currently live?

24 A. A little bit in Modrica and a little bit in Samac.

25 Q. So I understand you to say that you have moved back and you spend

Page 4104

1 some of your time now back in Bosanski Samac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And when did you move back to Bosanski Samac?

4 A. My apartment was returned on the 11th of November, 2000, and then

5 I came to Samac in January of 2001.

6 Q. Thank you. When you had your flat returned to you in November

7 2000, what state was the apartment in? Could you live in it straight

8 away? Was there any damage done to it?

9 A. No, you couldn't move in. The apartment was totally demolished.

10 And there is a record from our ministry about this, from our ministry in

11 Samac.

12 Q. Had your possessions been removed from the apartment?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you get the impression that your apartment had been looted and

15 everything, fittings and that, taken from it?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE SINGH: I just need a clarification, Witness. You said that

18 your apartment was returned on the 11th of November, 2000 to you, and then

19 a few -- a little while later you said that it had been completely

20 demolished. They couldn't rebuild it for you, or not?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, they didn't rebuild it. I

22 understood the question to mean what was the state of the apartment

23 inside. It was demolished. All the installations, all the fittings were

24 pulled out, destroyed. It needed to be painted, it needed to be refitted,

25 the electrical wiring and everything had to be replaced, the plumbing.

Page 4105

1 They had taken away the water heaters and all the other necessary things

2 in an apartment so that it would be habitable.

3 JUDGE SINGH: Just one more question on that. When your flat was

4 returned to you, had it previously been registered in the name of somebody

5 else or was it still registered in your name?

6 A. I really don't know. I have an example of a man who was in the

7 apartment took away the electricity meter. So when I went to the utility

8 office, he claimed that he hadn't taken it away. However, they checked it

9 in the computer, and it was still in my name, the meter, which means that

10 he had paid his electricity bills based on this meter, which means that

11 the apartment was registered in my name. And this is how, actually, we

12 had found out that he had stolen the meter, which he eventually returned.

13 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.

14 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

15 Q. I believe you told us this morning that the rest of your family

16 also had some apartments and property in Bosanski Samac, and I think you

17 said your brother had laid the first foundations of his stone to extend

18 his house. Did any of your other family get back their property?

19 A. Yes. My -- my sister-in-law, the sister-in-law of my oldest

20 brother, the one who was killed. And also the business space that had

21 just started to be built was returned to my nephew. Also, the property of

22 my middle brother, it was returned.

23 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us when this was returned?

24 A. In October 2000.

25 Q. Do you know whether that property was in a similar state as yours,

Page 4106

1 that there had been things removed from it, that it was, as you said,

2 demolished on the inside, there were possessions missing? Was that a

3 similar story for your relatives?

4 A. I think the state of their property was much, much worse. They

5 have a family house, so they had craftsmen and workers working there for

6 quite awhile in order to make it habitable. It's very rare. I think very

7 few people found their property, the movable items, in their homes when

8 they returned.

9 Q. Did you receive any compensation for the movable property which

10 you said you lost or for all the work that you had to do to restore your

11 flat to being possible to live in again?

12 A. No. No, I didn't receive anything, but I didn't request anything

13 either.

14 Q. Do you know whether you could have requested anything? Do you

15 know of anybody who has received compensation for property they've lost or

16 damage done to their property?

17 A. I don't know. I only know that the things that I had left at

18 [redacted]for him to keep for me, which I left so that he

19 would keep then for me, so I asked him to return those things to me. I

20 even tried with a lawyer, Mr. Goran Blagojevic, for this man to return the

21 things to me which he had promised that he would return to me. In the

22 meantime, unfortunately, he died, and his wife didn't allow me, not even

23 to enter her yard, because she claimed that I did not have any right to

24 enter into her yard, onto her private property in order to ask for my

25 things back.

Page 4107

1 Q. And just to finish that point, was there nobody in authority who

2 you could have gone to to help get your things back?

3 A. I don't understand.

4 Q. I'm sorry. You said that you had tried to have a lawyer involved

5 to help you get some of your things back, and I was just wondering that

6 apart from a lawyer, was there any of the official authorities, the local

7 authorities who could have helped you or even the local police who could

8 have helped you to regain your personal possessions?

9 A. I went to see Mr. Savo Cancarevic, because I was told that I could

10 go to him. And he told me, he promised me that as soon as I hear that

11 this woman, [redacted], comes back, that I should inform him and that

12 he would send his people there. But unfortunately, this didn't work

13 either.

14 Q. You said that it was January 1994 when you left Bosanski Samac.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you have any idea at that time how many -- approximately how

17 many Muslims or how many Croats were left in Bosanski Samac?

18 A. I think that very few remained. Mostly people who were in mixed

19 marriages stayed or who were soldiers in the army of Republika Srpska.

20 Perhaps 300 Muslims. And I think even fewer Croats, maybe about 100.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Ms. Reidy. I wonder whether you could

22 seek a clarification. We're told on page 73, line 13, that the witness

23 went to see a Mr. Cancarevic, and I'd like to know who he is. And also, I

24 think it would be helpful that he promised the witness that as soon as

25 [redacted] comes back, that might change the situation. But it doesn't

Page 4108

1 really -- where is she? You know, coming back from where? So maybe you

2 could just seek a clarification.

3 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, could we just return to the question again of your

5 property. I have think you've heard the Judge's question.

6 Who exactly was Mr. Savo Cancarevic?

7 A. The gentleman is the chief of police in Samac, or a commander of

8 the police. I don't know what his title is. Commander of the police.

9 Q. And when he told you that -- when you heard that [redacted]

10 was coming back, that you should tell him, what did he mean? Where was

11 [redacted]?

12 A. [redacted] lives in Banja Luka and she has a house in Samac,

13 but she lives in Banja Luka, and she comes back occasionally to Samac. So

14 when I heard that she was back, I called Mr. Cancarevic and I told him

15 that she was back. However, I didn't receive any information back from

16 him.

17 Q. And so when you didn't receive any information back from him, was

18 that your understanding, that he had not followed up on your request to

19 ask her about your property?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, is that clear for the record?

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes, that clarifies everything.

23 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

24 Q. Also, I think I had a few moments ago asked you about how many

25 Muslims and Croats were left in Bosanski Samac when you were leaving in

Page 4109

1 January 1994, and you had indicated a few hundred Muslims and possibly

2 even less Croats.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And is this also correct: I think that you testified previously

5 that at around this time, the exchanges had also begun to stop.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. REIDY: I was wondering, Your Honour, could I ask just to go

9 into private session? I would like the witness to indicate one or two

10 things on a map from Bosanski Samac, and again, they would be identifying

11 pieces of information which I would prefer to have in private session, if

12 that's possible.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we can go into private session.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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13 Pages 4110 to 4120 redacted private session.

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Page 4121

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are now back in open session and you may

5 ask your question again.

6 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour.

7 Q. I'd like to ask you the question I started, which was: Since

8 you've left Bosanski Samac in January 1994, or indeed, since you've

9 returned to Gradacac, or back to Samac, have you had any contact with any

10 of the defendants in this case?

11 A. Personally, with the gentlemen concerned?

12 Q. Personally, with the gentlemen concerned, or through any

13 intermediary with the gentlemen concerned.

14 A. Personally, not with a single one of these gentlemen. I didn't

15 have any contact with them, except sometime in 1996/1997, a young girl

16 came from Samac, Sanda Ceribasic, to the house where we lived in Gradacac,

17 and she said to me that Mrs. Fatima Zaric would like to see me very much,

18 that we should really meet up. This happened at the door of the house.

19 We talked a bit more. My husband came up and he said to the young girl

20 that I cannot see Mrs. Zaric, since her husband is accused of war crimes.

21 I asked if they could possibly send their son, Mirel, because I wanted to

22 see him. However, there was no contact with Mirel.

23 Q. Was that the only contact you had with Fatima Zaric, or did you in

24 fact later ever speak directly with Fatima Zaric?

25 A. Yes, I talked, when I returned to Samac. After a few months, my

Page 4122

1 mother was on the terrace and I was in the room, and I heard my mother's

2 conversation with someone at the terrace. And from the room, I said, "Who

3 are you talking to, Mother?" And Mother did not hear me and she didn't

4 answer. And then I went out onto the terrace. I leaned forward and I saw

5 Mrs. Zaric, Fatima. She started crying from down there, and it was very

6 hard for me too, because she really started to cry. And then I said,

7 "Don't cry. Come on up here." I had just come. A lot of people had

8 changed there. In front of my building I hardly know anyone.

9 Mrs. Zaric came up to the apartment. We kissed and talked. The

10 conversation started in general terms, like how she was doing, about her

11 health, my health, the children's health. [redacted]

12 [redacted]. We dealt with him as well. And then, as we talked,

13 Mrs. Fatima said to me that her husband, Mr. Zaric, told her once that it

14 was particularly hard for him when he came to the SUP and when he saw me

15 in that situation. When Mr. Radulovic was beating me, that it was very

16 hard for him.

17 I asked Mrs. Fatima that we not talk about this, that her husband

18 is the best and only one she has, as far as she's concerned, and that my

19 opinion is different. And I did not want to talk about that, and she

20 respected that. So we no longer discussed it.

21 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that she raised the name of Radulovic,

22 who was beating you. Was that the first time that you'd heard that name,

23 or did you know this man previously?

24 A. That was the first time that I heard the name of Radulovic. When

25 I was being beaten, since I did not dare talk about that to anyone, what

Page 4123

1 Mr. Zaric said to me, that I had to remain silent, that I should not talk

2 about this anywhere, I really stuck by that. And I was afraid to speak to

3 anyone.

4 Two months later - I forgot to tell you that - my brother was at

5 the health centre, and Nevenka Babic was there. And there was also

6 another doctor. Crlja came, who was also a driver. He asked my brother

7 who had beaten me at the SUP. Since my brother did not know that I was

8 being beaten -- he knew that I was beaten, but I didn't say. My brother

9 said that he didn't know who beat me or that I had been beaten.

10 So later I heard that it was this Nikolic who beat me, and Zvaka.

11 Later on, I heard this latest bit, that there was this Mr. Radulovic there

12 as well. However, I said this morning which way I was turned, and anybody

13 could have beat me, whoever wanted to. I couldn't see that.

14 Q. Thank you. Could you -- you told us already this morning that

15 after the beating and that -- I think you said you didn't get your period

16 for a number of -- eight months and that you were given some drugs to

17 sedate you by some of the doctors who were in Samac. Do you still suffer

18 from any effects from your experience in 1992 and 1993 in Samac?

19 A. Yes. Yes. I have problems. I have this early menopause, and I

20 have problems with that. That is very troublesome for me. And then also

21 there are these traumas.

22 A few days ago, I felt repulsed over my own body. I went to take

23 a bath, and all of a sudden this occurred to me, when this man urinated on

24 me. Believe me, I was revolted by my own body.

25 Q. Finally, you've testified, said that you returned to Samac and you

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Page 4125

1 mentioned that a lot of it has changed. Why did you want to return to

2 Bosanski Samac?

3 A. There is -- our family grave is in the cemetery there. My two

4 brothers are buried there. My mother wanted to return. My husband has

5 been -- had been working on our return from day one. He believes that we

6 should all go back where we belong.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. REIDY: That's my final question.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, with your permission, could I

11 approach my client to show him this map, because this is something new for

12 us, just to make some clarification about this position?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Just for a second.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

17 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

18 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Who is going to start cross-examination?

20 Mr. Lukic. Yes.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. I'm Novak Lukic, attorney-at-law. On behalf of the team of

25 Miroslav Tadic's defence, I'm going to put a few questions to you. My

Page 4126

1 questions will primarily pertain to the climate in town before the

2 conflict broke out. And we heard from your statement that during the war,

3 you spent quite a bit of time in Samac, and you can therefore clarify some

4 other things from your statement to us in relation to the period that you

5 spent in Samac.

6 I shall also ask you to answer these questions either with "Yes,"

7 or, "No," or, "I don't know," or, "I don't remember," so that we would go

8 through these questions of mine as fast as possible and that we make it

9 possible for the procedure to be as speedy as possible.

10 During the proceedings here, we have heard, and I think this has

11 by now become undeniable in these proceedings, perhaps you can confirm it

12 for us, that in the town of Samac, there were all three ethnic groups

13 present in the population, the urban population, whereas in the rural

14 areas around Samac, there were mainly Serbs and Croats living there; isn't

15 that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You also said this morning during your testimony that you noticed

18 that over the weekend, neighbours primarily went to the country and that

19 two or three families remained in the apartment building, as far as I can

20 remember. Can we agree that it was Croat and Serb families that were

21 going to the country, to villages, to see their relatives? Isn't that

22 right? Can we agree on that?

23 A. Yes.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel is proceeding too fast. The

25 interpreters cannot follow him.

Page 4127

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. Please pause and wait for the

2 interpretation to be completed.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. So I'll repeat my question. Did you talk to your neighbours? Why

5 were they leaving town over the weekend?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You also said that many citizens, many of your fellow citizens in

8 Samac removed their families to Croatia and to Serbia before the

9 conflict. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You also mentioned that your friend Blagojevic -- I forgot his

12 first name.

13 A. Predrag.

14 Q. Predrag. That he also made an offer to you for you to leave with

15 his child or children to Novi Sad.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell the Court, where is Novi Sad, in which state?

18 A. At that time it was still Yugoslavia. It's in Serbia.

19 Q. Is it still in -- in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia nowadays,

20 Novi Sad?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. There is another question I'm interested in. I think that you are

23 competent to clarify this for us. It was my understanding that you were

24 born in Samac and that your ancestors come from Samac. Do you know, in

25 the territory of the municipality of Samac - I'm not only referring to the

Page 4128

1 town but to the entire municipality - before the war, were there fellow

2 citizens of yours who were temporarily employed abroad?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know about entire families going to work abroad or was it

5 only parts of families? What was your perception?

6 A. [redacted]

7 [redacted]. It was parts of families that were

8 going. I don't know about entire families going.

9 Q. As for this climate that prevailed before the war, did Muslims

10 also send their families out of town?

11 A. Some did, yes.

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I have just to say a few words about the

16 translation.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Where?

18 MR. LUKIC: Because in the first part, during this morning

19 proceeding, the witness also said that that board was city committee, but

20 I think the better translation is this is municipal board.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can ask the witness to correct that.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Could you please clarify the exact name of that body? And also,

24 was there another body at the level of the city of Samac that was above

25 this body?

Page 4129

1 A. As far as I know, it was called Gradski Odbor, city board,

2 committee. I can't clarify it any better than that.

3 Q. Do you remember how many members that municipal board had?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "The city board had."

5 A. No.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Was Mr. Izetbegovic, Izet with you together on that board?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Sulejman Tihic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know whether members of their family left Samac before the

12 war broke out?

13 A. That morning, I found from Mr. Izetbegovic that his family left

14 for Croatia the night before. And as far as Mr. Sulejman Tihic is

15 concerned, as far as I know, in the course of those first few days, I

16 think that his family left then, as far as I know.

17 Q. Yes. That's fine. If you don't know, just tell us so.

18 I have another question. This morning in your testimony, you were

19 talking about [redacted], and they were in your

20 apartment for about two months or so.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And if I understood you properly, she returned to you the key of

23 that apartment.

24 A. I think that they just changed keys. I have a feeling that they

25 didn't even go inside the apartment, because nothing was moved into the

Page 4130

1 apart. Then after two months, they returned this key to me.

2 Q. She told you she was from Slavonski Samac?

3 A. No, she didn't tell me that. I knew it, because she worked in the

4 Budcnost company, and she would collect the paycheques at the branch [redacted]

5 [redacted].

6 Q. Can you tell us why she came to your apartment then? Why didn't

7 she go to her own apartment in Slavonski Samac?

8 A. She lived in Samac as a tenant. She was renting an apartment. I

9 don't know. Her husband was from Dubica or somewhere, so that they rented

10 an apartment in Bosanski Samac.

11 Q. Did she tell you, was she afraid to go back to her apartment

12 there?

13 A. Well, she didn't live in Slavonski Samac. She was married and

14 lived in Samac.

15 Q. Several times during your testimony this morning, you mentioned

16 shelling.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. First you mentioned Mr. Miso Aleksic, who was planting mines near

19 the bridge over the Sava River in case another army came over, Croatian

20 army came across the bridge.

21 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. You also mentioned that there was frequent shelling when you had

23 to go to report to the SUP every day.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You mentioned also that you were wounded from a piece of shrapnel

Page 4131

1 from one of those shells.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You spent a large part of the war in Samac. Could you please tell

4 us, how frequent was the shelling?

5 A. Yes, it was quite frequent.

6 Q. Weekly, biweekly, every day, every two or three days?

7 A. In the beginning, it was more frequent. Later, it was less

8 frequent. It depends on how things were back at the line, because Samac

9 was very close to the front line at Grebince. So all of this probably

10 affected whether Samac was shelled or not.

11 Q. Where did those shells come from?

12 A. I don't know. They probably came from the direction of Dobljevac

13 [phoen], Orasje. From that area.

14 Q. Do you agree that the shells mostly came from the territory that

15 was controlled by the HVO, i.e. Croatia?

16 A. Those shells came precisely from there.

17 Q. You also mentioned Dzevad Nurkic today. Do you remember how he

18 was wounded or killed?

19 A. Yes. He lived in my mother's neighbourhood. He's a young man of

20 18. He went to dig trenches together with his father, and that's where he

21 was killed.

22 Q. I have several more questions about some people that you mentioned

23 today. You mentioned Avdo Harcinovic.

24 A. Ado.

25 Q. Ado. He's a Muslim by nationality; isn't that right?

Page 4132

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. And what is Ruza Brdar Masic by nationality?

3 A. A Catholic.

4 Q. What about Mesud Nogic? What is his nationality?

5 A. A Muslim.

6 Q. In the war, they were doctors and they worked at the Samac health

7 centre?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where your brother was also working, in the sanitation -- sanitary

10 department?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, before I start, I have some documents

14 over here which I would like to present to the witness and put afterwards

15 into the evidence. These documents, however, due to the reasons which are

16 already known to this Trial Chamber, are not translated at the moment.

17 They have been disclosed to the Prosecutor some time ago, and what I have

18 here is Serbian or B/C/S version of these documents.

19 Therefore, in order to follow our procedure, I would need the

20 witness to read through these documents. By reading these documents, I'm

21 afraid that it might be that this information which are contained in these

22 documents might be the information which sort of identifies the witness,

23 and that is why I have talked to my learned colleague from the Prosecutor

24 side and with my colleagues over here at the Defence side, and I am

25 willing to ask this Trial Chamber to allow us to go into the private

Page 4133

1 session in order that we protect the witness's -- the identification

2 details about the witness or her family.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can go into private session.

4 [Private session]

5 [redacted]

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7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.05 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day

9 of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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