Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4147

1 Tuesday, 20 November 2001

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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you just wait? We are now in open session. You

22 can proceed.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, when you were going up the stairs or when

25 you were being taken up the stairs, you said that a strong, well-built

Page 4177

1 young man with tattoos ran past you and that he was covered with blood and

2 that he had a bat in his hand.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was that Lugar?

5 A. At the time, I didn't know that it was Lugar. Later I was told,

6 after some time. This lady, Dilista Prcic, who moved around much more

7 than I did, she told me later that it was Lugar who had beaten me.

8 Q. From your answer, I understand that you found out that it was

9 Lugar only later.

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. When you found out that you were convicted - let me put it that

12 way - whatever it was, that you were sentenced to a beating, do you know

13 who was the person who decided that you should have this beating?

14 A. Behind my back, on my right side, there were two men who were

15 standing there. There was also that man, but he had changed his clothes

16 now. He wasn't wearing that bloody T-shirt any more. And next to him was

17 this other short man. His nickname was Sumadinac. And this was what I

18 found out only later when I was coming back from the SUP. Somebody from

19 behind my back said, "Fifty strokes with the belt." And he said, "Fifty

20 strokes." He didn't use the word "bat." He used a different word. But I

21 found out that it was a bat that they used.

22 Q. Was it your impression that those two men who were standing behind

23 you, did you feel that Lugar was the one who was issuing the orders, that

24 he was the person who had a greater influence, if you happen to know?

25 A. I'm under an oath, and really, now, I don't know. Then, I didn't

Page 4178

1 know.

2 Q. Very well, madam. Do you perhaps need a break? I can see that

3 you are shaken. If you want, you can have a drink of water.

4 A. No, no. There is no need. Thank you.

5 Q. When the beating started, at that time, besides the two of them,

6 the other people who remained in the room were Zvaka Nikolic and a man

7 called Slavko; is that true?

8 A. Yes. This is what they -- how they addressed one another. This

9 young man, Slavko, he's a young boy. I could have been his mother.

10 Q. Do you know, amongst those people who were in the room, do you

11 know who was the person who actually administered the beating, if you

12 know?

13 A. Sir, I was -- I explained this yesterday. I had to take my

14 clothes off and I was placed on the table. I was told to lie down on the

15 table. And this man took a knife either from his boot or from his pants,

16 and I think it was a psychological measure. He placed a knife under my

17 throat. After the first stroke, this knife slipped. So I was lying on my

18 stomach and I couldn't tell who was beating me. They were behind me. I

19 just know that they were beating me with one stroke, using a belt on one

20 side and then using a bat on the other side.

21 Q. I apologise. I know you explained this to us yesterday, but I was

22 just asking you again if you are able to tell who the people actually were

23 who administered this beating.

24 A. I had my back to them, so I don't know who was standing behind me

25 or who was administering the beating.

Page 4179

1 Q. You say that they beat you with a police belt; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You also said that you had to bend over the table.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let me ask you this --

6 A. I had to have my legs spread out. That's what they said.

7 Q. I'm trying not to insist on things that you find difficult to

8 relive. I am only trying to ask you what is indispensable for the sake of

9 clarification for the needs of the Trial Chamber.

10 At one point, did the situation arise in which you and Dilista

11 Prcic were beaten together?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You have already told us that you are not an especially courageous

14 woman and that you did not imagine anything like this could ever happen to

15 anybody. You will agree with me that this would have been very traumatic

16 for a much stronger person than you are?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

19 MS. REIDY: Just one point. I was wondering if Defence counsel

20 could please switch off his microphone when he's finished the question,

21 just so the witness's voice is not picked up.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have the voice distortion, so I'm afraid

23 counsel has to make sure he switches off the mike.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: I am very sorry, and I apologise to the Trial

25 Chamber and my learned colleagues. My colleague here is taking care of

Page 4180

1 that, so probably at one moment it didn't go quite well.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Actually, Mr. Lazarevic, I'm just

3 looking here at the transcript, and I think yesterday what the witness had

4 said, if I recall correctly, is that she is easily frightened. At least,

5 I think, in the English language, I would distinguish "easily frightened"

6 from the wording that you've just used now, which is "not especially

7 courageous." I think there is a difference between those two.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour, for the

9 instruction. Actually, in our language, it sounds pretty much the same,

10 but I will ask the witness again to clarify this fact if necessary.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I don't think so. It was just a matter of -- I

12 don't think there's a need to do that.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. If I can proceed now.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, what you lived through was very traumatic

15 and it's hard to understand. Did this cause you to be in a state of

16 shock, in view of the fact that you are a woman and that you are not

17 especially courageous and that this happened to you?

18 A. Yes, of course, and in general, I am not a very stable person

19 psychologically.

20 Q. I would like to put one more question to you. As Defence counsel,

21 we have read statements in this case, so I would like to ask you to

22 clarify one point. During this event, did you faint? Did you lose

23 consciousness?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If I understand you correctly, this happened as many as three

Page 4181

1 times.

2 A. Yes. More than once.

3 Q. After these moments when you lost consciousness, did you know what

4 was going on around you during those periods, and how long did they last?

5 A. How could I know?

6 Q. I'm sorry, but for the record, does this mean that you didn't?

7 A. No, I didn't, and I don't know how long this lasted.

8 MS. REIDY: Sorry.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

10 MS. REIDY: Again, my objection. I'm not sure if it's clear.

11 There were two questions: Did you know what was going on around you? and

12 secondly, did you know how long those lasted? The witness answered, "How

13 could I know?" So I would like to clarify: How could she know how long

14 they went on for or how long -- how could she know what went on, so it's

15 clear which part of the question that the witness is answering.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: I will clarify that with the witness.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel, but -- yes, go ahead.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. For the record, madam, the Prosecutor has objected to my question

20 because it really consists of two questions, so let's break it down.

21 A. I understood that you asked me, while I was unconscious, did I

22 know what was happening around me, and I said I didn't know.

23 Q. Thank you very much. That's exactly what I was about to ask you.

24 And also, do you know how long these periods of unconsciousness lasted?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 4182

1 Q. At one point you said that you saw Simo Zaric when you glanced

2 towards the door.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you remember whether Simo Zaric told the man who was beating

5 you: "What are you doing?"

6 A. I don't remember that. I do remember when he passed by, a young

7 man, and later on I heard that this young man's name was Laki. He raised

8 his hand and cursed God and said, "What are you doing to this woman?" I

9 remember that.

10 Q. There's another detail in connection with this, and I do apologise

11 for insisting on it a little longer. But after this, the beating went on?

12 A. They hit me again.

13 Q. Did you perhaps hear that the policeman said on that occasion that

14 you were being punished? And my research --

15 A. No. No. He didn't say that.

16 Q. I apologise. Twenty-five with a bat and 25 with a --

17 A. Fifty. I remember that well, because I was still conscious then.

18 Q. Do you remember perhaps that Zaric said, if you were aware at that

19 moment, that he said, "Go out"?

20 A. He may have said that, but I didn't hear it.

21 Q. Just one more thing in connection with this event. Do you

22 remember, did Zaric perhaps tell you to put your clothes on then?

23 A. I know that when I saw Mr. Simo, I felt terrible because he saw me

24 naked and bloody, and I tried to cover myself. Maybe Mr. Zaric did say

25 something, but I really, really didn't register this.

Page 4183

1 Q. Madam, I have finished with this part of your testimony, and I

2 will not put any more questions to you in connection with this event. I

3 would just like to ask you --

4 A. Just a moment.

5 Q. Madam, when you feel ready, please tell us. Don't hurry.

6 When you left the police station, you said, as you were leaving,

7 that you saw Simo Zaric at the door.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On that occasion, was Teodor Tutnjevic, also known as Toso, with

10 him?

11 A. I don't know. In fact, I didn't see.

12 Q. On that occasion, can you confirm that you tripped on the stairs

13 and practically fell, fell on his shoulder?

14 A. Yes, precisely so. I leaned on Mr. Zaric. Years have passed by

15 since then, and yesterday I said, and I still say that today, I really

16 like Mr. Zaric. And I'm sorry a little, because when I was there, when I

17 was being beaten and I saw him there, he could have acted differently.

18 And at that moment when I leaned against Mr. Simo Zaric, I felt as if I

19 was leaning on my brother.

20 Q. Thank you, madam. Do you remember perhaps on that occasion that

21 Simo addressed the duty policemen who were there at the entrance and said

22 that no one was to call you to the SUP again? Do you remember that?

23 A. No. I only remember that Simo then told me that I must not tell

24 anyone what had happened to me there and that I had three brothers.

25 Q. These words I quoted to you, I just wanted to know if you

Page 4184

1 remembered them or not.

2 A. No, I don't remember.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Could Your Honours bear me with me for one moment,

4 please.

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did you leave the MUP premises by car together with Mr. Zaric?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you perhaps sit in the back seat with him while Toso Tutnjevic

10 was driving?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did they take you to your mother's house?

13 A. As far as I remember, Dilista brought us there. I say again I was

14 in a really bad condition.

15 Q. I will put two more questions to you about this topic and then I

16 will move on.

17 On that day, did Simo Zaric talk to your mother, and did he tell

18 her he would call SUP and not to call you there again?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. After this event, did you see Simo Zaric in the SUP when you went

21 to report there?

22 A. At first, I did see him.

23 Q. Can you tell me, in connection with this duty to report at

24 7.00 a.m. and 7.00 p.m., to what extent or, rather, how long did you spend

25 there on average?

Page 4185

1 A. Well, sometimes it was only a moment. We would turn up at the

2 desk and they would note it down. But sometimes there were bad people

3 there who created various problems. Sometimes we didn't even go in when

4 Zoran Jovanovic was on duty. He would come to the door and give us a

5 signal that he would make a note.

6 Q. He would enter a symbol next to your name?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Zaric was wearing a military uniform, was he not? Not a police

9 uniform.

10 A. Yes. Yes, a camouflage uniform.

11 Q. I would like to go back to a detail. Before you were arrested by

12 these policemen, you spoke of collecting weapons from the citizens of

13 Bosanski Samac. This was on the 18th of April?

14 A. I only said in my mother's street.

15 Q. I would like to clarify something. These soldiers did not

16 actually enter houses, did they?

17 A. They did not enter my mother's yard. My brother took his hunting

18 rifle outside and handed it over.

19 Q. Another question in connection with this. You saw Mr. Zaric on

20 that occasion?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I would like to know, of course if you can tell me, on that day,

23 the uniform he wore, was it the usual suit of olive-grey military uniform

24 or was it some other sort of uniform?

25 A. I can't tell you that.

Page 4186

1 Q. Madam, I would like to go back now to the second half of 1992. Do

2 you remember that Simo Zaric visited you in the house of your mother, Simo

3 Zaric and his son Mirel? Do you remember that?

4 A. Mirel came to my flat, the flat where I lived. He rang the bell,

5 and then when these other people came out, he asked where I was, and they

6 told the child I didn't live there any more. Mirel had brought some juice

7 and a box of cigarettes. He met my kuma, [redacted]. He gave it to her

8 and told her to bring it to me. He said he was ashamed to visit me. I

9 don't remember after that because I was taking sedatives and because I was

10 so terrified of going to the MUP.

11 Q. Madam, let me ask you something about this. You have already said

12 this during your testimony yesterday, and you've mentioned it again

13 today. Can you tell me what sort of sedatives were you taking? Do you

14 know what this was?

15 A. I don't know. They were pills, tranquilisers.

16 Q. You don't remember what sort of pills?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Can you tell me, approximately how long did you going on taking

19 these?

20 A. Until the moment Mr. Simo Zaric told me I didn't have to report

21 any more.

22 Q. Five months?

23 A. Well, until November. That's how long I had to report every day.

24 Q. I would like to clarify one point which was raised by the

25 Prosecutor during the examination-in-chief and that was your contacts with

Page 4187

1 Mr. Zaric's wife, Fatima. If I remember -- if I understand correctly,

2 this was in 1998, wasn't it, when she sent some girls to you?

3 A. I don't know exactly, but it was when the entity line was

4 established between Gradacac and Samac.

5 Q. But this line was established in 1996. So --

6 A. Yes. But let me tell you, I couldn't be precise about this.

7 Q. You made your statement to the Prosecution in 1999, if I am not

8 mistaken. The 1st of January, 1999.

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Just one more question in connection with Mrs. Fatima Zaric. Did

11 she influence you in any way as to how you would testify before this

12 Tribunal?

13 A. No. No, she didn't.

14 Q. Madam, I will put some questions to you about some personal

15 relations between you and your family and the Zaric family, and that will

16 be all, so if you will bear with me for that much longer.

17 A. I apologise, but I think that yesterday I said that Fatima only

18 told me that it was hard for Mr. Zaric, and I told her I would prefer not

19 to discuss it with her, and she respected this.

20 Q. Well, to be more precise, my questions will be about your

21 relations before all these events took place in Samac, so I wanted to ask

22 you about some relations from that time. At that time, can we say that

23 your family and you were friends with Mr. Zaric's family?

24 A. Yes, real friends.

25 Q. [redacted]

Page 4188

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14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was it your impression that Mr. Zaric was a Yugoslav-oriented man

16 who did not draw distinctions between people of different religions,

17 nationalities, ethnic groups?

18 A. Yes, I think that was so.

19 Q. Madam, thank you for testifying before this Tribunal. I have no

20 further questions for you.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I'm finished with my

22 cross-examination.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination by the Prosecution?

24 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: We are in open session.

Page 4189

1 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honours. The Prosecution notes that.

2 Also, just before I begin my re-examination, for the record, can I just

3 make a correction? It was at page 40, line 1. Mr. Lazarevic quoted the

4 statement having been taken from this witness as of the 1st of January,

5 1999, or at least that's what appeared in the transcript. It was indeed

6 the 21st of January, 1999. That's what appears in the statement. So

7 I -- if that's permitted, I'd like just to have that correctly recorded on

8 the transcript.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: I can confirm the information that the Prosecutor

11 has just given. It is actually 21st. Maybe it was just some

12 misunderstanding in the transcript, because I haven't checked it closely.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

14 MS. REIDY: Thank you very much.

15 Re-examined by Ms. Reidy:

16 Q. I just have a few questions to ask you. When you were being asked

17 questions by Mr. Zecevic, he asked you whether or not you had to perform

18 work obligations, and you said no. Do you know whether other women had to

19 perform work obligations? And please, just answer yes or no, and there's

20 no need to mention any names of persons who did.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. You also mentioned that there was a Dzevad Nurkic who

23 was wounded or killed. And I apologise, this is in a question that

24 Mr. Lukic, on behalf of his client, Mr. Tadic, put to you. He mentioned

25 Dzevad Nurkic, and you said that he was killed digging trenches.

Page 4190

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you confirm what ethnic background Mr. Nurkic had?

3 A. Muslim, Bosniak.

4 Q. Thank you. Do you happen to know if he had volunteered to go dig

5 the trenches where he was killed?

6 A. Nobody volunteered.

7 Q. Thank you. And similarly, in cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic,

8 you told him that your brother Ibrahim went in the evening to dig

9 trenches. And for clarity, could you just say: Did he voluntarily go to

10 dig those trenches?

11 A. No, he did not go voluntarily to dig trenches.

12 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like then just to ask you one or two

13 questions about the documents that you were shown by Mr. Zecevic?

14 MS. REIDY: And it may be appropriate, Your Honours, if we -- I

15 can either handle it by going into private session, since we had

16 previously done that with these documents, or I could just ensure that

17 none of the names who are related to the witness are put on the

18 transcript. Which do you prefer to proceed in?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't see how you will succeed with that. I think

20 it's safer to go into private session.

21 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. Then, with the Bench's

22 permission, I would like to go into private session while I ask the

23 following questions on the documents.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 [Private session]

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10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE MUMBA: We are now in open session. Yes.

12 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. There is, with the following two

13 witnesses, an outstanding matter. We have --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: This is -- these are the two witnesses where there

15 is an application for -- yes.

16 MS. REIDY: Exactly, Your Honour, yes. It will be the two

17 witnesses who we've applied to have testify under a pseudonym and with

18 protective measures, the reason, therefore, being --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I can't hear you. I can't -- can you just repeat

20 what you said?

21 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour, certainly. I said: Yes, this

22 is -- the next two witnesses are those for whom we've applied for

23 protective measures, those measures being a pseudonym and facial and voice

24 distortion, and the grounds for that is because the witnesses, in late

25 2000, late last year, have moved back living in Samac, in Republika

Page 4199

1 Srpska, and therefore they feel that they are obviously in a position

2 which is now more vulnerable to potential retaliation, and they have

3 expressed their concerns and fears to us, and we have requested the

4 Chamber for those measures on the basis of that.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I just wanted clarification from the Defence.

6 There is a joint -- a response which is in opposition to the motion by the

7 Prosecution on protective measures, and part of this response is that the

8 names of the witnesses have been in the public domain during the pre-trial

9 phase, and I just wanted some explanation on which documents were these

10 names, apart from the pre-trial brief of the Prosecution?

11 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, as far as we know, they appeared on the

12 pre-trial brief of the -- the Prosecutor's pre-trial brief back in 1999.

13 And I really cannot tell you much more about whether their names appear on

14 other documents, because I was not representing the client at that time.

15 So it was -- I had a predecessor, my colleague, Mr. Avramovic, from

16 Belgrade.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The decision of the Trial Chamber is that the

18 protective measures will be granted to both witnesses, as requested, and

19 the reasoning of the Trial Chamber will be issued in writing.

20 So we can go ahead with the witnesses. And what will be the -- if

21 we can have the first one you are going to call, the pseudonym.

22 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. In line with the list that we read

23 out on Friday, the 9th of November, it would be now Witness L who would be

24 taken next, and then Witness K.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps we can adjourn for the lunch break and

Page 4200

1 start the next witness at 1530 hours, unless there are other matters

2 counsel wish to raise.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, there's just one matter

4 that perhaps would be wiser to raise now rather than later --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: -- rather than at 3.00, and it's a matter for

7 Mr. Pisarevic and Mr. Simo Zaric's legal defence, and that's this: This

8 next witness is going to discuss, very briefly, an episode in which his

9 farm was burnt in -- I'm not sure exactly when. I think it was late

10 1991/early 1992. And he will give evidence briefly of being aware of a

11 newspaper interview that Mr. Pisarevic gave to a Sarajevo newspaper called

12 AS, in which it was suggested, apparently, by Mr. Pisarevic that it was

13 because of the hoarding of weapons at this farm that the farm was burnt.

14 And so in that sense, Mr. Pisarevic's name will arise in the evidence.

15 I've asked the witness if he's ever had any legal dealings with

16 Mr. Pisarevic, in the sense of Mr. Pisarevic acting for him, and he says

17 no. I've asked the witness if he has any concerns about Mr. Pisarevic

18 questioning him, and he's also said no. So I just thought I'd raise

19 that. I have no particular application to make in respect of this

20 witness, but I know that the Trial Chamber has raised this and wants to be

21 aware of these sorts of issues before the witnesses are called, and I

22 thought that now might be the appropriate time to raise it, rather than at

23 3.00, when he's sitting in the witness box.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And if I may seek clarification: When was

25 this interview? You did say the farm was burnt maybe in 1991, 1992, but

Page 4201

1 when was the interview in the newspaper when Mr. Pisarevic is alleged to

2 have made the --

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't know. Obviously post-burning and pre-16th

4 or 17th of April, and my memory from proofing the witness tells me that it

5 was in the early part of 1992 that the interview was given.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because if -- that is one of the issues

7 of -- that may fall on the Prosecution, for instance. I'm asking the

8 question.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: And if that -- yes. And if that interview came

11 around this time when the -- covered by the indictment, then it would

12 appear that that response appeared to be justifying the burning of the

13 farm.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Well, it may be. I confess, I hadn't given a

15 thought to that.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I know you haven't given it a thought, but the

17 perception would be that.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Well, perhaps we can have a think about that

19 over the break, also an issue for Mr. Pisarevic. I'd like to withhold my

20 response, if I may, at this particular point, on whether or not it's

21 evidence that could be used by the Prosecution, and I'd like to state my

22 position.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You see, the problem here is this: The

24 witness can give that evidence.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

Page 4202

1 JUDGE MUMBA: And maybe the interview never happened, maybe it

2 did.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe, if it did, maybe Mr. Pisarevic was misquoted,

5 which usually happens. So that, you see, you -- Mr. Pisarevic himself may

6 be put in a situation where he has to give evidence about this interview.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, yes, that's right.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So this is the danger.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure Mr. Pisarevic is following this.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: This is the danger.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: It is a danger, and I --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: It's sufficient that you've brought it to the

15 attention of the Trial Chamber, and Mr. Pisarevic will bear this in mind.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: There was one another thing, I think the schedule

18 for this week. We'll sit up to Thursday 1700 hours. We will not sit on

19 Friday because of the programmes of the Tribunal. So Friday there will be

20 no sitting. We shall sit up to Thursday, 1700 hours, and then the

21 following week.

22 So before the witness will start, the Trial Chamber will give its

23 decision whether or not Mr. Pisarevic will cross-examine this particular

24 witness.

25 We will rise until 1530 hours.

Page 4203

1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.

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Page 4204

1 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, just before the witness is

4 sworn, that issue that I raised with you briefly before lunch regarding

5 Mr. Pisarevic --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: -- I think that I misled the Court and it was

8 unintentional.

9 In that respect, the newspaper article which we were talking

10 about, apparently the utterance by Mr. Pisarevic was something to the

11 effect that due to the mistake of irresponsible persons, this witness's

12 farmhouse was burnt down because it was assumed SDA weapons were there. I

13 had misunderstood what -- in the course of proofing precisely what was in

14 the article. I took the opportunity to clarify that, and there is no

15 allegation of a direct accusation on the part of Mr. Pisarevic against

16 this witness. So I thought I ought to clarify that.

17 That doesn't mean, of course, that all those issues of conflict of

18 interest and so on don't arise. But I think I got the allegation wrong,

19 and so I just thought I ought to correct that for the sake of the Court

20 and for Mr. Pisarevic.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you very much for that correction.

22 The Trial Chamber has looked in this matter, and we have decided

23 that Mr. Pisarevic and Mr. Lazarevic will be listening to the testimony of

24 each witness, and depending on the type of evidence that comes out of each

25 witness, they, between them, will decide to share the cross-examination.

Page 4205

1 If the Trial Chamber observes that the sharing of the evidence between the

2 two counsel for purposes of cross-examination may still impact on the

3 problem that we have been facing in this trial, the Trial Chamber will

4 still make the final decision as to who cross-examines. So we will

5 proceed along those lines.

6 And as far as this particular witness is concerned, the

7 explanation by Mr. di Fazio makes it clear that there may not be any

8 possible conflict.

9 So the witness can go ahead and make the solemn declaration.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS L

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The Prosecution.

15 Examined by Mr. di Fazio:

16 Q. Sir, I would like to show you a document which I believe has a

17 number of your personal details on it.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Could the registrar please produce to the witness

19 the document concerned.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I was just wondering whether we have -- there are

21 copies for the Judges.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe there are.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Because usually that's the practice, although in one

24 incident we don't have copies. We're supposed to have copies as well.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry.

Page 4206

1 Q. Thank you. Now, will you please look at that document, and next

2 to letter "A", is that your name?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Next to the letter "B", is that your date of birth?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And next to the letter "C", is that the town in which you

7 currently live?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, you are married, and in the course of your

10 evidence, if it arises that you need to discuss or mention your wife,

11 would you be so kind, please, as not to mention her name but, rather,

12 refer to her by the letter "K." If you have trouble remembering that,

13 don't worry; just don't refer to her and either refer to her as the

14 Witness K or as your wife, okay? Just don't mention her actual name when

15 you're testifying. Do you understand that? Can you let us know, please.

16 Can you answer?

17 A. Yes, I understand.

18 Q. Good. Now, you've mentioned the town from which you come.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number for the document?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I'm sorry.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The number is P35.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: And it will be under seal.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to the Chamber for that.

24 Q. You've mentioned the town in which you live. I'd like to ask you

25 how long your family has resided in that place.

Page 4207

1 A. A hundred and forty-six years.

2 Q. Does it go back to your great-grandfather living in that town?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You've mentioned that you're a married man. When did you marry?

5 A. In 1969.

6 Q. May I ask what is your ethnic background? How would you describe

7 yourself?

8 A. I am a Muslim.

9 Q. And what about your wife? How would she describe herself?

10 A. She is married and she's a Muslim.

11 Q. How many children do you have?

12 A. Two.

13 Q. And what are they? Two girls, two boys, or a boy and a girl?

14 A. A son and a daughter.

15 Q. And do they reside in the town in which you live or do they reside

16 elsewhere?

17 A. No. My daughter lives in another town and my son lives in another

18 town.

19 Q. In the former Yugoslavia or beyond that, in other countries?

20 A. [redacted].

21 Q. Did you perform military service when you were a younger man?

22 A. Yes, I did, in 1972.

23 Q. And where in the former Yugoslavia did you perform that service?

24 A. In the town of Nis. I was in the technical service.

25 Q. Just explain that in a little more detail for the Chamber. What

Page 4208

1 does "technical service" mean?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I was just about to say, counsel should be

3 switching off the mike to protect the voice of the witness.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'll endeavour to -- I

5 apologise, Your Honour. I'll endeavour to ensure that that occurs.

6 A. I worked in a workshop repairing vehicles, engines, trucks, and so

7 on.

8 Q. Have you lived in the town in which you currently live for all

9 your life?

10 A. All my life, up to 1992.

11 Q. I want to ask you some questions about your work background, and

12 in particular, your work background before April of 1992. What did you

13 do?

14 A. I got a job in a socially owned company in 1969. I was a

15 salesman, selling petroleum and petroleum products.

16 Q. And what's the name of this socially owned company, please?

17 A. It was called [redacted].

18 Q. Did you work with that company, [redacted], up until April of 1992?

19 A. From 1969 until 1992, that is, the 17th of April, I worked in the

20 same company.

21 Q. When you say "salesman," what exactly does that mean? Did you --

22 were you only selling products of the company or did you own a petrol

23 station or a gas station?

24 A. No, I never owned a petrol station. I was in a socially owned

25 company, and I was employed there throughout this time.

Page 4209

1 Q. When you say "employed there," where exactly? That's what I want

2 to know. Where did you actually carry out your day-to-day duties?

3 A. My job was to act as a gas-station attendant, to fill tanks and

4 charge for that, and also to sell all the other products sold at gas

5 stations for the supply of vehicles.

6 Q. Have you returned to live in the town that you were born in?

7 A. Yes, I have returned.

8 Q. When did you return there?

9 A. I returned in October 2000.

10 Q. Did you return there with your wife?

11 A. My wife and I returned.

12 Q. And at the time that you returned up until now, have your children

13 resided overseas? In other countries, I should say.

14 A. Yes, all this time.

15 Q. And what sort of work have you been doing since October of last

16 year?

17 A. I remained in the same company [redacted],

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Could Your Honours just bear with me for one

21 moment, please.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]

24 MR. DI FAZIO:

25 Q. I want to ask you if you know a gentleman named Blagoje Simic.

Page 4210

1 A. I do.

2 Q. How long have you known him?

3 A. Over 30 years.

4 Q. Do you know his family?

5 A. I do. I know his father.

6 Q. In the course of carrying out your work duties before 1992, April

7 1992, did you ever have occasion to speak to him? In other words, at the

8 gas station, the petrol station.

9 A. Yes, as a customer.

10 Q. Did you ever socialise with his -- with his father's friends?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Look around the courtroom, please, and if you see him, point him

13 out.

14 A. Yes. The second man sitting next to the wall.

15 Q. Thank you. Do you know a gentleman named Milan Simic?

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. di Fazio. Maybe we should

17 clarify. "The second man sitting next to the wall." To the left? To the

18 right?

19 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to Your Honour.

20 Q. Let's just be a little more specific if we can. Second man, as

21 Her Honour pointed out, from which side?

22 A. There's a security officer, and then the man right next to him,

23 with the beard.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: For the purposes of the record, I would ask it to

25 be noted that he has correctly identified Mr. Blagoje Simic.

Page 4211

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

2 MR. DI FAZIO:

3 Q. I was now going to ask you about Milan Simic. Do you know him?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Again, how long have you known him?

6 A. For all his life.

7 Q. Do you know his father?

8 A. We were friends. We visited each other's houses.

9 Q. Do you know his uncles?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Is he married?

12 A. Milan Simic?

13 Q. Yes. Yes.

14 A. Yes, he's married.

15 Q. Did you attend his wedding?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Does your wife know his family?

18 A. We were friends who visited each other at home.

19 Q. And again, can you conduct the same exercise and please identify

20 him? Tell the Judges where he's sitting. Make it clear.

21 A. The first on the left-hand side.

22 Q. Not the security guard, I take it.

23 A. I am not going to count the guards any more.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: And for the purposes of the record, I'd ask that it

Page 4212

1 reflect that the witness has correctly identified Mr. Milan Simic.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

3 MR. DI FAZIO:

4 Q. The next gentleman I want to ask you about is Miroslav Tadic. Do

5 you know him?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Does he have a nickname?

8 A. Yes, he does.

9 Q. What is it?

10 A. Brko.

11 Q. And about how long have you known him?

12 A. Since 1965.

13 Q. Were you a student at school in -- I think I'm permitted to

14 mention the town pursuant to the Rules. Were you a student at school in

15 Bosanski Samac?

16 A. Yes. I went to primary and secondary school there.

17 Q. Did you ever see him?

18 A. Miro Tadic was my teacher. He taught practical work.

19 Q. And again, can you identify him to the Judges, please.

20 A. Yes, I can.

21 Q. Please tell us where he is.

22 A. The second from the left.

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Simo Zaric, do you know him?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. How long have you known him?

Page 4213

1 A. Well, 30 or 35 years.

2 Q. What sort of -- what sort of contact did you have with him over

3 those 30 or 35 years? Was it social contact or was it contact from time

4 to time or was it no contact at all? Please describe it to the Court.

5 A. There are about 7.000 to 7.500 inhabitants in the town, and we all

6 knew each other. Mr. Zaric lived [redacted].

7 [redacted], and for a time he worked in the SUP, later on in

8 the furniture factory called Budcnost, and after that, he went on to do a

9 job in the state security service. We often saw each other [redacted]

10 [redacted]. He was a frequent customer of mine.

11 Q. And again, can you please identify his position in the courtroom,

12 if you see him, to the Chamber, please.

13 A. He's sitting in front of that group. He is at a desk on his own.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, may the record reflect

16 that the witness has correctly identified both Mr. Miroslav Tadic and

17 Mr. Simo Zaric.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 MR. DI FAZIO:

20 Q. In the former Yugoslavia, were you ever a member of the Communist

21 Party?

22 A. No, I wasn't.

23 Q. Did you ever join any other political party?

24 A. In 1990.

25 Q. What political party did you join?

Page 4214

1 A. The SDA.

2 Q. Can you recall when in 1990 you joined that party?

3 A. In August.

4 Q. In mid-April of 1992, were you still a member of that party?

5 A. Yes, I was.

6 Q. Did you ever achieve any high rank or position within that party

7 other than being a member of it?

8 A. [redacted].

9 Q. I'm not clear from your answer whether that means that you were a

10 member -- sorry, whether that was a position in the SDA or whether it was

11 a position -- some other position.

12 A. Some other position.

13 Q. I'm only now referring to your position within the ranks of the

14 SDA party, okay, and my question is: Within the ranks of that party, did

15 you ever achieve any sort of position other than being a paid-up member of

16 it?

17 A. [redacted]

18 [redacted].

19 [Prosecution counsel confer]

20 MR. DI FAZIO:

21 Q. I'm not just very clear from your last answer. I'd just like you

22 to be a bit more precise, if you can. You say that you were elected to

23 represent the town of [redacted]. Was that a position on the municipal board

24 or in some sort of official municipal organ, or are you referring to

25 something else?

Page 4215

1 A. No. I didn't have any authority in the party. There was an

2 executive committee which decided on certain tasks. The executive board

3 had seven members. I was not a member of that.

4 Q. Thank you. And when you talk about the executive board, you are

5 referring, I believe, to the executive board of the SDA party.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Were you a particularly active member of the SDA?

8 A. I don't consider myself to have been especially active.

9 Q. What did SDA party activity mean for you? What sort of things did

10 you do?

11 A. Well, we enrolled new members in the party, we explained to people

12 what the statute of the party meant, and we recruited members. Mostly we

13 did that.

14 Q. Have you ever heard of an organisation or body called Fazan?

15 A. No, I've never heard of it.

16 Q. Are you a hunter by inclination or for any other reason?

17 A. No. I have never been a hunter in my life.

18 Q. Did you ever possess weapons in the -- when you were living in

19 Bosanski Samac prior to mid-April 1992?

20 A. No. I have never possessed any weapons in my life.

21 Q. And my question, of course, is directed to the possession of

22 weapons, both legal or illegal. I want to make it a broader question.

23 What do you say about that?

24 A. Yes. When I served in the Yugoslav army, I was issued with an

25 M-48 rifle. When I left the army, I returned it, so that I didn't have a

Page 4216

1 gun -- a rifle until the 16th of April, 1992. I didn't have either legal

2 or illegal weapons.

3 Q. Thank you. You say that you didn't hold a gun or a rifle up until

4 the 16th of April, 1992. I'd like you now to explain to the Chamber if

5 you acquired possession of a weapon on that date.

6 A. Yes, I did receive a weapon.

7 Q. Where did you take possession of it?

8 A. To be exact, in the yard of the TO building, the Territorial

9 Defence building in Bosanski Samac.

10 Q. How did you come to be taking possession of a weapon there?

11 A. I was informed by telephone to come sometime in the afternoon to

12 take a semi-automatic rifle, and so I went there.

13 Q. Can you recall who it was that informed you to go and do that?

14 A. No, I don't remember.

15 Q. Tell the Chamber what you saw when you arrived at the TO in the

16 afternoon.

17 A. I saw a lot of my fellow citizens who had also arrived with the

18 same intention as myself. There were about 100 of us.

19 Q. And what was happening in respect of weapons with the hundred or

20 so men that were there?

21 A. Yes. Many were waiting in a line, just like I was, and there was

22 a list of people who were supposed to be issued with a rifle. So I stood

23 in that line as well. I saw that I was on that list. And as they were

24 issuing the weapons, we would form a sort of semi-circle in the TO

25 building yard, and then when everything was issued, then the people who

Page 4217

1 were there shortly explained to us how to handle the rifle and how to

2 clean it.

3 Q. Had you handled a weapon since your military service?

4 A. No. No, I didn't handle a gun at all, a rifle.

5 Q. Did you pay attention to the lesson on how to handle the rifle and

6 how to clean it?

7 A. Yes. I did watch, but I didn't have the opportunity to do it

8 myself.

9 Q. Want I want to know is was that an empty exercise or was it in

10 fact instructive? In other words, did you know how to do it already or

11 did you learn something?

12 A. I couldn't learn anything that time.

13 Q. Was that because you didn't have the opportunity or because you

14 already knew it? That's what I want to know.

15 A. I didn't have the opportunity. There were many of us, and they

16 couldn't show it to everybody. One of the people who was issuing the

17 rifles showed us how to handle it, how to clean it, how to take it apart,

18 and how to fire it.

19 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what the ethnic background of the hundred

20 or so men who were gathered was?

21 A. Now when I think back on it, I've had enough years to think about

22 this. So when I do think back on it, it was mostly Croat and Muslim

23 citizens who were there.

24 Q. The weapon that you were issued with, what was it?

25 A. It was a semi-automatic rifle with two ammunition rounds.

Page 4218

1 Q. Did you have to sign any documentation or perform any sort of

2 official -- rather, complete any official document to show that you'd

3 taken possession of this weapon?

4 A. Yes. There was a list of everyone, and on the list where my name

5 was there was the number of the weapon and also the number of the

6 ammunition rounds, and I signed it there.

7 Q. Were you given any instruction as to under what circumstances you

8 might use the weapon?

9 A. No. We didn't receive any instructions except that they told us

10 that we would meet again on Sunday. This was a Thursday, and we were

11 supposed to meet again on Sunday to organise ourselves into companies and

12 to learn more about how to handle, how to fire the rifles.

13 Q. Where was this meeting to take place, this meeting on the Sunday?

14 A. At the town stadium.

15 Q. Do you remember what day - sorry - what the date was for the

16 Sunday? If you don't remember -- if you don't remember, just let us know,

17 but if you do ...

18 A. The 19th of April, 1992.

19 Q. Now, it's not in dispute that across the road from the TO building

20 in Bosanski Samac was the SUP. On the occasion that you've just been

21 describing, when the hundred or so men were gathered, did you see any

22 police officers observing the events across the road at the TO, the events

23 in which you were participating?

24 A. Yes. I noticed there were a couple of gentlemen who worked at the

25 police station. They were standing at the window. And there were also

Page 4219

1 two police officers standing outside in front of the police station.

2 Q. Can you remember who they were?

3 A. I don't know their names, but I know their faces.

4 Q. Do you know what ethnic background they are?

5 A. It's difficult to say right now, but I know that one of them who

6 worked at the police station, his name was Dragan, and I know that he's a

7 Serb by ethnicity.

8 Q. And do I take it from that last answer that he was one of the

9 gentlemen either standing at the window or standing outside the building,

10 outside the police station?

11 A. I can't give you a precise answer right now.

12 Q. How long did the whole exercise of collecting the weapons take?

13 A. Perhaps about an hour altogether, an hour and a half.

14 Q. What did you do after the distribution of these weapons had been

15 completed?

16 A. I went outside, and I got into my private vehicle, and I drove off

17 in the direction of my house.

18 Q. I should have asked you this: Were there sufficient weapons to go

19 around? In other words, enough to provide a gun to each of the men

20 assembled.

21 A. No. This wasn't possible. As far as I know, there were comments

22 that this person didn't get one, that person didn't get one. So it wasn't

23 possible for all of us to receive one.

24 Q. Was it just a question of luck as to who got one or who didn't get

25 one, or was there some other system for deciding who would be the person

Page 4220

1 to get a weapon and who wouldn't?

2 A. It's difficult to say anything about that now. However, there was

3 a list from earlier. I don't know who made the list, the list of people

4 who were to receive weapons.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, you've said that you went home. Did you stay at

6 home?

7 A. Yes, I stayed at home.

8 Q. That night, was your sleep disturbed for any reason?

9 A. Yes, sometime after midnight.

10 Q. Can you please tell the Chamber what happened.

11 A. I woke up, and my wife also woke up. We were woken because of

12 loud shooting from a direction that was not known to us at the time. But

13 you could hear firing, and it was getting louder and louder, and I could

14 tell that it was moving from the direction of the town and also towards my

15 house.

16 Q. Did you do anything?

17 A. No, I didn't do anything, but at that time a man came to my door

18 who informed me that I shouldn't leave the house until a courier came to

19 get me.

20 Q. Did a courier indeed come and get you?

21 A. I didn't have the patience to wait for him. It seemed to me that

22 it was so long, so perhaps half an hour afterwards I took the weapon and

23 set out towards the centre of the town where I live.

24 Q. What was the name of the gentleman who came to your door and told

25 you not to leave until a courier came?

Page 4221

1 A. His name was Aziz Hecimovic.

2 Q. Now, you said that you went towards the town with your gun. Did

3 you go there alone?

4 A. Yes, I went there alone.

5 Q. Were you going there, to the centre of town, that is, pursuant to

6 some pre-existing plan, or was it just something that you decided to do at

7 that moment? In other words, was there an arrangement that existed to go

8 into the centre of town in the event of strife?

9 A. I decided on my own initiative.

10 Q. How far from the centre of town did you live?

11 A. Four hundred metres away.

12 Q. Did you walk into town or did you drive?

13 A. I went in my vehicle.

14 Q. What did you observe once you got into town?

15 A. I saw about 15 of my fellow citizens who had also received weapons

16 the previous day.

17 Q. Were these men that you had seen at the TO on the occasion when

18 the weapons were distributed?

19 A. Yes. They were the same men who were present when the weapons

20 were being issued.

21 Q. Were these men who you saw also armed?

22 A. Yes, they were armed.

23 Q. Having joined them, was any plan of action decided upon, or did

24 any of you do anything collectively?

25 A. We were waiting for the person who had issued us with the weapons,

Page 4222

1 but he didn't appear, and it seemed a very long time to us, but nobody

2 appeared. And I can't remember exactly, but I think that nobody else

3 joined us.

4 Q. What was the name of the chap you were waiting for?

5 A. I don't know his name.

6 Q. Were the -- I'll rephrase my question. Can you tell me -- or

7 sorry, tell the Chamber, rather, the ethnic background of the men who were

8 gathered, armed, in the centre of town with you?

9 A. Now that I think about it, they were all Croats and Muslims.

10 Q. You've told the Chamber that there was a period of waiting. Was

11 any action taken or did you just mill around in the centre of town?

12 A. We noticed that the firing was getting closer minute by minute,

13 getting closer to us. Later I found out that the forces who were entering

14 the town were approaching from the village which is the first village that

15 borders with the town, the village called Tisina, and they were taking

16 over factories one by one and capturing the security guards at the

17 reception, as well as the workers, if they happened to be working on the

18 third shift, and they were bringing them in. So I was there until 4.30.

19 As far as I understood, and as much as I can remember, it was

20 getting light, and I decided, and the others did the same thing, we

21 decided to disband. So I sat in my car and returned home.

22 Q. In the time that you were in the centre of town, did you or any of

23 the other men fire any shots in anger?

24 A. No. There was no firing out of anger or any kind of rage, and

25 there was no shooting between the warring factions.

Page 4223

1 Q. Thank you. Okay. You returned home. What did you do once you

2 got home?

3 A. I put my weapon away. I couldn't sleep. I kept going up and down

4 the stairs, going from one room to another. And at one point I saw that

5 our elementary school was burning. It was in flames.

6 Q. Could you see that from your apartment?

7 A. Yes. When I went out to my balcony, or my terrace, I could see it

8 from my apartment, from the house.

9 Q. Were you getting any information as to what was going on, for

10 example, from the radio or from the television or from your neighbours or

11 from telephone messages?

12 A. I called many of my fellow citizens by telephone. We were

13 reporting to one another what was going on in Samac.

14 Q. Was that the only source of information that you had at that point

15 of time, telephone calls from your neighbours?

16 A. At that time, it was the only source of information, plus contacts

17 with my immediate neighbours, the ones that lived right next door to me.

18 Q. Did you keep possession of your weapon throughout that day?

19 A. No. Around 9.00, I heard the voice of my fellow citizen over the

20 loudspeaker, who was warning us that the weapons that we had been issued

21 with the day before we should bring out into the street and give it back.

22 Q. Can I have the name, please, of your fellow citizen who was

23 speaking over the loudspeaker?

24 A. His nickname is Ibela. I can't remember his name. Ibrahim

25 Salkic.

Page 4224

1 Q. You say you heard this. Did you actually see him holding a

2 microphone or see him walking around exhorting the surrender of weapons?

3 A. No. I didn't have the possibility to see him [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted] so that my view was blocked.

6 Q. How did you react to this -- to this invitation to go and

7 surrender your weapon? What did you do?

8 A. At that moment, there was a voice over the radio. We were anxious

9 to get some information, so we were switching stations on the radio. And

10 then we found the radio station Republika Srpska Samac, and information

11 was being broadcast for weapons to be turned in, and those who turned the

12 weapons in will suffer no consequences. I was in a panic. I was afraid

13 to go out, [redacted]

14 [redacted], and I had heard or I was concerned that perhaps there

15 were snipers up there who might start shooting.

16 I asked my wife to go out into the road and to inform the

17 gentlemen who were issuing the warning over the loudspeaker and for her to

18 turn the weapon back to them, because I thought that she wouldn't have as

19 hard a time as I would.

20 Q. We'll get on to the actual surrender of the weapon in just a

21 moment, but first I want to ask you about this radio station Republika

22 Srpska Samac. Had you ever heard of a radio station by that name prior to

23 the 17th of April, 1992?

24 A. No. We had Radio Bosanski Samac.

25 Q. Okay. So your wife, did she actually go out into the street and

Page 4225

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 4226

1 surrender the weapon?

2 A. Yes. She went out into the street, and she brought a Serbian

3 fighter into the apartment. He agreed to that. And he asked me at the

4 door, "Where is your weapon?" I was already in the hall. I was moving.

5 And I said, "It's right there behind your back." He took the rifle and

6 the two rounds of ammunition. He asked me, "Do you have any more

7 weapons?" And I replied that I did not. And it's true; I did not. He

8 said, "Very well. There are no problems. If they ask for weapons, tell

9 them that the Serbian police was here and that they took your weapon."

10 Q. I'd like you to give us a fuller description of this man. I'd

11 like you to tell us a few things about him. I'd like you to describe his

12 clothing, and also if you can comment upon whether he was a local man or

13 whether you can say that he came from -- from Serbia.

14 A. No, that man was not from my town. He introduced himself as a

15 member of the Serbian police from Serbia, that he was a member of the

16 special forces. He was wearing a black uniform, and he was well armed.

17 Q. Was there anything about his accent that identified him as coming

18 from Serbia?

19 A. I was under a lot of stress, I was in fear, so I was unable to

20 tell.

21 Q. Thank you. I take it from your answer that this man didn't

22 mistreat you or offer any violence to you or your wife.

23 A. Not the least violence. I was even very satisfied with the way he

24 treated me.

25 Q. Thank you. In the ensuing hours, did you try to ascertain what

Page 4227

1 was -- precisely what was going on in your town?

2 A. Yes, we did try. We used the telephone because the phone lines

3 had been connected again. For a while, they had been disconnected, both

4 power and telephones, but then electricity arrived. And we were informed

5 that the townspeople should stay quiet, that they should not go out into

6 the streets, that the Serbian army had entered to disarm paramilitary

7 formations and that whoever obeyed these instructions would not suffer any

8 consequences.

9 Q. When you say you were informed that the townspeople should stay

10 quiet and not go out into the streets and so on, where did you get that

11 information from? Was it on the telephone or over the radio or

12 television? Please let us know.

13 A. Over Radio Samac. I listened to it, and I heard this order on my

14 transistor. We didn't have a TV set at the time.

15 Q. I'm just not quite sure about the radio station. You've just

16 mentioned Radio Samac. Previously in your evidence --

17 A. Radio Srpski Samac.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: There is one thing. It might not be that important,

21 but the witness says, "We didn't have a television at that time." And

22 it's 77, 19. It says "TV set." Of course they had a TV set at that

23 time. Because in our language, the television -- the TV set and the

24 television as a whole is the same word.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see.

Page 4228

1 JUDGE MUMBA: So counsel can clarify that, yes.

2 MR. DI FAZIO:

3 Q. What you meant was that you didn't actually have the device, the

4 box, the TV set, in your house at the time; is that correct?

5 A. I did have a TV set in my house, and many other things, yes, but

6 in Samac there was no broadcast, so we couldn't get any information that

7 way.

8 Q. Thank you. I think that's clarified the matter.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we need for clarification. Was the station

10 just off that day or --

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll do that, if Your Honours please.

12 Q. Okay. Now, you've told us you actually had the TV set inside your

13 house. Were programmes being broadcast on that particular day?

14 A. Yes. We did get other TV broadcasts from Sarajevo, from Tuzla,

15 but they didn't know what was going on in Samac.

16 Q. I see. So you could tune in to television stations from around

17 the country, and --

18 A. Yes. Yes. We could tune in to other television stations around

19 the country.

20 Q. Were those television stations reporting events in Bosanski Samac?

21 A. No. No, because they didn't know.

22 Q. Prior to the 17th and the 16th of April, had there been a more

23 local television station that delivered programmes into the town of

24 Bosanski Samac?

25 A. No. No.

Page 4229

1 Q. All right. Did you remain at your home for the rest of that day?

2 A. Yes. I stayed at home for the rest of the day.

3 Q. And what about the following day? What did you do?

4 A. On the following day we were informed through Radio Srpski Samac

5 that we should report to the yard of the Buducnost commercial building in

6 order to discuss our future life together and our future work.

7 Q. Did you in fact report there?

8 A. Yes. I went there, as did many of my fellow townspeople.

9 Q. Did you ever have occasion in the next few days to go to the TO?

10 A. Yes. That was on Sunday, the 19th. I went to the Territorial

11 Defence because there was an announcement on the radio station that I

12 should go to the Territorial Defence building to be given my assignment.

13 Q. I'd just like to get the sequence clear. Which place did you go

14 to first in response to the radio message?

15 A. I apologise to the Court, but I wouldn't know now whether I went

16 to Buducnost first on that day or whether I went to the Territorial

17 Defence first.

18 Q. Thank you. Okay. Now, before I get you to describe those visits

19 to the Territorial Defence and to Buducnost, I'd like to ask you what you

20 saw when you were still back in your apartment. Did you have an

21 opportunity to see what was happening out on the streets?

22 A. No, I didn't have an opportunity, because I didn't have a view. I

23 didn't have a view of the street, so I couldn't see what was going on

24 there.

25 Q. Thank you. You've told us that you went to both places but you

Page 4230

1 can't remember which place you went to first. Can you recall how you were

2 dressed when you went to either of those two places, the TO or the

3 Buducnost factory, any features of your dress?

4 A. I was wearing a tracksuit.

5 Q. Were there any other features of your apparel that you can

6 remember, the clothes you had to wear?

7 A. I can't remember now. Maybe I had a coat on, because it was

8 April.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, please, of your visit to the TO,

10 please?

11 A. Yes. When I heard the announcement that we should all report

12 there, when I left my yard, I ran into a few of my neighbours. So we set

13 out in the direction of the Territorial Defence together. As we

14 approached it, the number of people grew so that when I arrived there,

15 there were some 20 people waiting in a queue in front of me. So I stood

16 in the queue myself. And we had to say when -- our date of birth, our

17 first and last name, and we were not given any specific assignments but

18 simply told to return to our homes.

19 Q. What was the ethnic background of the 20 or so people that were

20 gathered there at the TO with you?

21 A. When I think of it now, they were all Croats and Muslims.

22 Q. Think back now and the clothing that they were wearing. Was there

23 anything about the clothing that they had on that you can recall?

24 A. All of us who came to report, we were all wearing civilian

25 clothes, civilian clothes.

Page 4231

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: May I seek the assistance of the usher, please.

3 I'd like to show Exhibit P14, and in particular -- 14A, I should say, and

4 in particular, photograph number 50. This is the only one that I want to

5 refer to at this stage.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: It is a set of photographs, quite large

7 photographs. It should be P14A, because that's the one without any

8 headings.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: And perhaps it could be placed on the ELMO so that

10 the witness can just demonstrate where the people were gathered.

11 A. This is --

12 MR. DI FAZIO:

13 Q. Thank you. Just tell us what building that is, first of all.

14 A. This is the building of the Territorial Defence in my town of

15 Bosanski Samac. This is the main entrance, and this is the room where I

16 went in and stood in the queue waiting to report.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, I'd like you to do just exactly the same

18 again, except this time use the metal pointer and point to the photograph

19 on the device just on your right, because then we'll all be able to see it

20 on our TV screens, okay? Just turn around.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: And with the assistance of the usher, he can gently

22 direct the witness to the photograph. Thank you.

23 Q. Now, what's that door that you're pointing to?

24 A. This is the building of the Territorial Defence in my town. This

25 is the main entrance. This is the first room to the left when you come in

Page 4232

1 where there was a desk with three people sitting behind it making a list

2 of us who were queueing up to give them our details, our names and dates

3 of birth. In front of this building stood an armed soldier with a rifle

4 on his shoulder, and he was wearing a camouflage uniform.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I think I've finished with the photograph,

7 Mr. Usher. Thank you.

8 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. di Fazio, this sort of evidence seems, to my

9 mind, to be repetitive evidence which has never been objected to by the

10 Defence counsel.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

12 JUDGE SINGH: So I'm wondering, is there a need to go through with

13 these sort of details.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, no. If the Chamber is not going to be

15 assisted by that, then I won't take it through in this sort of detail.

16 Alternatively, is Your Honour suggesting I should be leading the witness

17 and getting through it faster? I'm not quite certain -- sure of the

18 position Your Honour is taking.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I think the point being made is that we've seen this

21 photograph of the territorial building so many times now, so that it may

22 not be necessary for the witness to actually view the photograph and refer

23 to it. I don't think there is any dispute that that is the building of

24 the Territorial Defence.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Okay. I understand that point, and I won't

Page 4233

1 take the witness through it chapter and verse in the manner that I've been

2 doing up until now. And I'm grateful to the Chamber for that. It will

3 assist me to get through this faster. Of course, this evidence that this

4 witness is now giving is from a different perspective, that of a person

5 who was not a prisoner, and from that point of view, of course, it's quite

6 important.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Thank you.

9 Q. Now, on the way to the Territorial Defence, was it safe to walk

10 the streets?

11 A. No, it wasn't.

12 Q. Were you able to take any precautions to ensure that there was

13 some safety at least? Anything you could do to make it safer?

14 A. Yes. We crept along next to walls or crossing yards if it was

15 possible. There was constant shooting. We didn't know where the shots

16 were coming from, but we had the feeling that -- well, the armed people we

17 met in the streets yelled, "Snipers. Snipers. There are snipers on the

18 buildings." So sometimes we had to duck, and we had to bend over as we

19 were walking, to run across the street, for example.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, can you tell us about your visit to the Budcnost

21 factory?

22 A. I was informed in the same manner that all citizens were to report

23 there, and I again decided to call my neighbours, or maybe they called me,

24 I don't remember, but two or three of us set out together toward the

25 Budcnost furniture factory. As we approached it, the group grew. When we

Page 4234

1 arrived in the yard of the Budcnost building, there were about 150 of my

2 fellow citizens there already. We were all unarmed, and we were civilians

3 wearing civilian clothes.

4 Q. Can you comment on the ethnic background of the civilians who were

5 assembled there, please?

6 A. Well, now that I think about it, they were all Croats or Muslims.

7 Q. What happened when you arrived there?

8 A. We waited to hear what Jovo Lukic would tell us. He had been

9 appointed commander of the Territorial Defence.

10 Q. Had you -- did you know that he'd been appointed commander of the

11 Territorial Defence?

12 A. That's how he introduced himself. And behind his back there were

13 a few stairs, and then he climbed up to the top and then he introduced

14 himself as such.

15 Q. What else did he tell you?

16 A. He said we were to be quiet, that Serbian forces had entered our

17 town, that there was no reason to worry, that we should simply obey

18 orders, and that nothing bad would happen to any of us, that we should all

19 join together to preserve the town from attacks by extremists.

20 Q. Was the meeting interrupted?

21 A. Yes, it was interrupted, because a truck arrived from the

22 direction of the city centre, with three or four armed soldiers on it, and

23 they asked for Igor Rukavina from our group, accusing him of being a

24 sniper operator.

25 Q. Was he arrested?

Page 4235

1 A. Yes. He was in our group. He was reluctant to report. It seemed

2 to me that a long time had passed, but several of us saw him among us.

3 But we all waited for him to declare himself, and when he finally mustered

4 the courage, he was brutally pushed in the truck. And we were told from

5 the truck to disperse, and if someone had any questions, he should ask

6 General Adzic, who was the commander of the Yugoslav army at the time.

7 Q. Thank you. Following the meeting, did you go home?

8 A. Yes. The new commander of the TO had the same opinion. He said,

9 "We'll disperse now. Go to your homes." And we set out in groups toward

10 the centre, and I went to my house. There was shooting again. Allegedly

11 it was snipers. So we stayed close to fences and crept along. That's how

12 my fellow citizens and I moved along, and in this manner, I reached my

13 house.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Sorry. Perhaps we may stop here. The Trial Chamber

15 was informed that there are some matters the Defence counsel would like to

16 raise. And perhaps you can release the witness and let him leave the

17 courtroom. The proceedings will continuing tomorrow - this is for the

18 witness - and he will be informed at what time.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Actually, there are two

22 things which I wanted to raise with the -- and I informed the Registry and

23 the Senior Legal Officer about that.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: First of all, the problem which my client faced

Page 4236

1 today, and this is, like, at least the third or the fourth time I have

2 informed the Registry about it. This place where he is kept during the

3 time when he's resting, there is a problem with the heating, and it is

4 very cold down there. And the guards have been helping, trying to fix

5 that, but to no avail. And this creates a lot of problems for my client,

6 because out of staying in a cold room, he is experiencing some problems

7 with his health. That is number one. And I understand this has to be

8 clarified somehow with the Registry, and I informed the Registry Already

9 for -- this is the third time now, and then I needed to raise it right

10 now, here with the Trial Chamber. Of course, this problem comes out only

11 when it is very cold --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because we are moving into winter now. It's

13 been fairly cold the past few days, and even today.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Exactly. And the second matter, Your Honours, is

15 that we have raised these questions at least twice right now in these

16 proceedings about the direct versus indirect testimony against my client.

17 Because my client, since he is not feeling well, he would like to rest

18 tomorrow afternoon and not to come into the Court, and I am -- we

19 requested already, as you know, Your Honours, that we have some guidance

20 from this Trial Chamber what is considered direct or indirect evidence

21 against our client. And that is what I would like to clarify before the

22 Trial Chamber decides whether we can work without my client, or rather,

23 that we have simple guidelines so my client knows, when he waives his

24 right, that he exactly knows what might be the -- what is his or our,

25 Defence's, position. Thank you so much.

Page 4237

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. On the first point, of course the Trial

2 Chamber will follow up the matter with the relevant office. We accept

3 that you did inform the Registry, and of course it's your duty as Defence

4 counsel to deal with the immediate problems of your client. And we do

5 hope that either they will move him to a room where the heating system is

6 working if they can't repair the heating system where he normally rests,

7 but at least to make sure that he's not exposed to the cold, because

8 obviously it will aggravate his poor health.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: On the second question of whether the witness is

11 direct or indirect, we really haven't delved into that and we haven't got

12 that classification of witnesses yet. I know we alluded to it, but we

13 haven't got that classification yet, for the simple reason that the

14 summaries that we have, as we have observed as the witnesses come and give

15 evidence, quite often the evidence goes beyond what appears to be in the

16 summary, so it is difficult for anybody really to tell what the witness

17 will be able to say in the witness box.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours, completely, and that is

19 why I raised this question with the Prosecutor, because the Prosecutor

20 might tell us that. And if the Prosecutor says this is not direct

21 evidence, then we will have to have some kind of assurance in that respect

22 that this is not direct evidence against our client.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps that is a matter that can -- I think

24 it was dealt with by the Prosecution, but I don't think sufficiently. And

25 what the Trial Chamber has observed, like I said, the summaries don't

Page 4238

1 appear to be, you know, followed in most of the cases. There's more

2 evidence beyond what the summaries provide. And perhaps that can be

3 looked into to try and see how we can assist the Defence counsel, and

4 Mr. Simic himself, when giving instructions to his counsel as to whether

5 or not he feels he can rest during a particular proceeding during the time

6 that any particular witness is giving evidence. Of course, the ideal

7 situation is to have Mr. Milan Simic in the courtroom so that he can

8 observe the witnesses for himself, and that would normally jog his memory

9 here and there perhaps, and then he would be able to give instructions.

10 We have been informed by the administration that they're looking

11 into the matter of providing the facilities we thought they would be able

12 to provide at the Detention Unit. It will not be possible before the end

13 of the proceedings this year, because of so many reasons which I wouldn't

14 go into, and the fact that some trials are beginning perhaps at the

15 beginning of December. So it may not be possible. They are saying that

16 it may be possible in January, when we start. So that even if he's

17 resting in the Detention Unit, he may be able to follow, if he's in a

18 position to follow the proceedings, and that would be the ideal

19 situation. But as to whether or not the witnesses are direct or indirect,

20 that is a matter which I think we have to go into, we would ask the

21 Prosecution to go into very, very carefully, so that we avoid undermining

22 the basic rights of Mr. Milan Simic when he -- as to when he should -- if

23 he's not feeling well, when he can rest in the Detention Unit, rest

24 assured that he is not missing the opportunity of giving you instructions.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 4239

1 JUDGE MUMBA: I think, besides that, I don't think there is

2 anything we can say right now. If he's not feeling well and he feels like

3 resting tomorrow afternoon, I think that is a matter between you and him.

4 Because I cannot say whether the witness -- this witness or the next one

5 will be direct or indirect.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I hope you understand that neither my

7 client nor I are willing to stall these proceedings.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: We are really trying to expedite it as much as

10 possible. That is why I raise this question. Otherwise we could just

11 stand up and say that he doesn't feel well. That is why I'm trying to be

12 cooperative in this respect, and that is why I need the guidelines from

13 the Trial Chamber, in order that my client knows exactly what kind of

14 rights he's waiving at a certain moment.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: At any time. Yes. Yes. Yes. The Trial Chamber

16 accepts what you're saying and your assurance that you are also

17 interested, as is your client, in expediting these proceedings.

18 So I'll ask the Prosecution. I may not ask for direct answers

19 right now, but see what can be done in view of these problems. There's

20 nothing we can do about the witness on the stand right now, because we

21 just have to continue tomorrow.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. If Your Honours please, I understand my

23 learned friend's dilemma, and I sympathise, and the Prosecution will do

24 whatever we can to assist. The question of guidelines, however, is

25 troubling, I think, and this particular witness provides a salutary

Page 4240

1 example. In the course of proofing him, I've ascertained that he mentions

2 Mr. Milan Simic's name briefly in respect of a particular episode that

3 occurred very shortly after the takeover that is not mentioned in his

4 statement. I'm going to inform Mr. Zecevic of that shortly, after we

5 break. In addition, during the afternoon break, having seen some of the

6 documents that were produced, I think, to witnesses while I wasn't here,

7 we ran those documents past the witness and suddenly all this new

8 information is provided, and that illustrates the sort of problem that

9 arises. And I mentioned before that many of these witnesses have given

10 statements back in the mid-1990s, and we proof them just before they come

11 into Court, and the best that you can do is hopefully get to Defence

12 counsel before they're actually in the box.

13 Another example, to be contrasted, is that of Mr. Todorovic. I've

14 been proofing him and I'm getting my notes together, and as soon as that

15 exercise is complete, I'll be able to provide those notes to counsel well

16 in advance. Not all of the notes but disclosure of the new features of

17 evidence to Defence counsel in advance. There won't be a problem there.

18 The problem arises with witnesses just like this one, who arrive shortly

19 before trial, are proofed right up to the point where they walk into

20 court, and because of that, it's very hard to adhere to any sort of

21 guideline and the matter has to be approached, I suggest, on an ad hoc

22 basis.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: It will be witness by witness.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Witness by witness. And that's really the only

25 effective, practical way of dealing with this matter.

Page 4241

1 Bearing that in mind, of course, the Prosecution will do whatever

2 it can to ensure that --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: -- Mr. Simic is told through his counsel which

5 witnesses will be speaking about him directly.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

7 JUDGE SINGH: As for this witness, Mr. di Fazio, looking at the

8 timetable will you be finished with him by tomorrow 11.00 or 1.00? So

9 that if he's going to be away tomorrow afternoon, then cross-examination

10 is going to start and then he'll be away during cross-examination

11 possibly.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: As -- doing my best, if Your Honours please, my

13 prediction is that I'd be finished with him either very late tomorrow

14 morning or early tomorrow afternoon, I hope.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Zecevic, you've heard what Mr. di Fazio

16 has said about the impossible task of being able to ascertain what the

17 witness will say. And this is compounded by the situation, by the fact

18 that most of the Prosecution witnesses do not live in The Hague, I mean,

19 in this country. So there is no opportunity for counsel to see them

20 beforehand, like even a day before, to be able to inform you. So we will

21 just have to do it the best we way we can, and the Prosecution will

22 undertake to inform you as to the particular references regarding your

23 client so that you can get instructions on that and be able to decide.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: If you allow me Your Honours, just very short.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

Page 4242

1 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand the situation very clearly. That is

2 why I insisted that we have guidelines from this Honourable Trial Chamber

3 in order that we can decide whether this is direct or indirect evidence.

4 I mean, what this Trial Chamber assumes as a direct or indirect evidence,

5 that is what we would like to know. And then we can only decide whether

6 this is appropriate for us that Mr. Milan Simic waives his right or not.

7 That is the point.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: That is an impossible task for the Trial Chamber,

9 because by the time Mr. di Fazio finishes proofing any his witnesses,

10 there may be just sufficient time to inform you of the details. Perhaps

11 then maybe he may be able to inform the Chamber that actually there is

12 evidence touching on Mr. Milan Simic. But for the Trial Chamber to

13 make -- to make a cutout list that these witnesses are direct, these are

14 indirect, no, because we don't have that concept, at least in the

15 Tribunal. So that makes it difficult.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand. I understand very well, Your

17 Honours. But this is the issue that we have raised --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, before.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: -- in this trial before, and that is why I was

20 referring to that.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: No. At first it appeared simple, that where a

22 witness is not mentioning Mr. Milan Simic, then one may say that is not --

23 the evidence does not directly involve Mr. Milan Simic. But you can see

24 the overlap in the evidence of the various Prosecution witnesses. And

25 even though the name may not be mentioned, some of the evidence may be --

Page 4243

1 may be attributed to the fact that your client was involved, and that is

2 where the problem is. Yes. And then also very much depends on how the

3 questions are put to a witness.

4 And the other problem is a witness may walk in here and look at

5 the defendants and then remember. You see? So it isn't a matter which

6 the Trial Chamber can really decide before the evidence is even heard.

7 It's difficult.

8 So all I can say is we'll leave it to the Prosecution. Once they

9 proof their witnesses, then they discuss with you, and then you discuss

10 with your client. The decision should be yours, between you and your

11 client. It is important that that is done that way, because some of the

12 witnesses who come here, you may know them, your client may know them. We

13 don't know the witnesses. So --

14 MR. ZECEVIC: I don't know them as well, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Some of them. Maybe your client knows them, yes.

16 So normally you find that some information which the Prosecution or the

17 Defence counsel or indeed the accused may know is not known by the Trial

18 Chamber.

19 So that directed version, no. I don't think we can make that at

20 this stage.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll rise and continue at -- I'm sorry.

25 Mr. Lukic. Yes.

Page 4244

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I will

2 take up just one more minute of your time, but I mean to refer directly to

3 the first point that my colleague Mr. Zecevic mentioned.

4 I didn't want to burden the Trial Chamber with the problem of my

5 defendant, which began right at the beginning when we started to have

6 morning and afternoon sessions. I'm talking about the two-and-a-half-hour

7 break. He has considerable problems which could be resolved quite

8 simply.

9 What my colleague Zecevic had said about the cold that we all felt

10 when we went there during the break. My client is 65 years old, and up

11 until recently, he was the eldest accused at the Detention Unit. He has

12 considerable health problems, and there is medical documentation about the

13 treatment he had while he was on temporary release.

14 There are two alternatives. Either he be permitted during that

15 two-and-a-half-hour break to be in the rooms right next to the Trial

16 Chamber - he would be able to be quite comfortable there - and also he

17 would request a slightly softer, more comfortable chair. I really didn't

18 have the intention of bringing this before the Chamber, but since my

19 learned colleague Mr. Zecevic has already mentioned a problem of this

20 kind, we're all very concerned about the health of our clients and -- so

21 that they are able to follow the proceedings in the most comfortable and

22 the best possible way.

23 This is all I wanted to say.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I just want it to be clear. Does your client

25 wait in the same room that Mr. Milan Simic waits in during the lunch

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1 break? Is it the same room?

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] They are all in similar rooms which

3 are next to one another downstairs. I don't know which room Mr. Simic is

4 in, but I was in one of those rooms. There are plastic chairs there that

5 are attached to the floor and you cannot move them, and they're very

6 uncomfortable to sit in, especially for older people. And unfortunately,

7 I have to treat him in that way.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. Yes. It is important that you bring the

9 health concerns of your clients to the attention of the Trial Chamber,

10 yes, because of the obvious reasons that, you know, we're supposed to make

11 sure as much as possible the accused persons are looked after during the

12 proceedings and in that way they're able to follow the proceedings

13 properly.

14 The Trial Chamber will deal with these matters by raising them

15 with the relevant offices, and we are very hopeful that something will be

16 done. Either the rooms will be improved or portable heaters maybe can be

17 provided, but we'll leave that to the people concerned. But we'll make

18 emphasis on that. We're not prepared to kill the accused slowly, if I

19 dare say that. We're really interested in their health.

20 We will adjourn and continue our proceedings tomorrow morning at

21 0930 hours.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.14 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21 day

24 of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

25