1 Thursday, 22 November 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav
9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution is continuing with
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 WITNESS: WITNESS L [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio:
16 Q. Witness, yesterday we started to -- I started to ask you questions
17 about the exchanges, and I want to return to that topic now. In the time
18 that you were in Batkovic, were prisoners from time to time exchanged?
19 A. Yes, on several occasions.
20 Q. And eventually did that happen to you?
21 A. Yes, it did happen. On the 5th of October, 1994.
22 Q. And where were you taken to? In other words, to what area were
23 you released?
24 A. I was brought to the line between Serb Sarajevo and Sarajevo. The
25 exact location is Grbavica.
1 Q. In the time that you were in Batkovic, did you see any of the
3 A. Yes, on several occasions.
4 Q. Who did you see on those several occasions?
5 A. I saw my professor, Miro Tadic.
6 Q. Can you recall on about how many occasions?
7 A. Two or three times.
8 Q. And where precisely did you see him on those two or three
9 occasions? Was it inside the hangar or outside the hangar or at a
10 location close to the hangar?
11 A. Yes, I saw him in the hangar.
12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. di Fazio, could the witness tell us
13 approximately what dates? Was it in 1992 that he arrived there, 1993,
14 1994, whatever?
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'll do that, Your Honour.
16 Q. You heard the Judge's inquiry. Can you tell the Chamber
17 approximately when these occasions were? Think back on the period of
18 time. If you can give us precise dates, by all means do, of course. That
19 would be preferable. But if you can't, think back on the period of time
20 and try and put a fix when in that period of time these two or three
21 occasions were.
22 A. Throughout the period of my imprisonment, pencils and paper were
23 taken away from us. We only got them when we would write home through the
24 Red Cross card. These messages were read. We were not allowed to mention
25 important names and dates. Afterwards, these pencils were taken away from
1 us. That is to say that I can only try to remember.
2 Mr. Miro Tadic, my professor, came to Batkovici on several
3 occasions until the end of 1992. I cannot recall whether it was two or
4 three times. He brought a list of my fellow citizens from Bosanski
5 Samac. He personally read that list, meaning who was supposed to be
7 Most people from the list were from the hangar; however, it would
8 happen that some of my fellow citizens would be on the list, and these
9 people were in their houses in Bosanski Samac. He registered this
10 diligently, and when he returned to Bosanski Samac, as far as I know, he
11 collected these people who were at their homes, put them on buses, and
12 took them to lines of delineation in order to have them exchanged.
13 As far as I can remember, this is when the religious holidays were
14 coming up, as the end of the year would be coming up, that is to say, the
15 23rd, the 24th of December, 1992. I cannot recall exactly. There were
16 faster exchanges, two or three of them, because of the religious
18 Once I managed to get through all of this commotion through my
19 fellow citizens. I already said that there were a lot of old people,
20 exhausted people, young people, crippled people, and many of my fellow
21 citizens and many citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina wanted to get to Mr. Miro
22 Tadic. I managed somehow to pass through this throng, and I said,
23 "Professor, I need to talk to you."
24 Q. Can I ask you just to stop there? I'm interested in what you're
25 about to say, but I'll get to that later. I'd just like to cast your mind
1 back to times, okay, so that we can assist the Chamber on that inquiry
2 about when it was that Mr. Tadic came to visit you.
3 Now, in your last answer, you said that he came to Batkovic on
4 several occasions until the end of 1992. You said yesterday that you were
5 exchanged -- sorry, that you were transferred to Batkovic in late November
6 of 1992. Is it your position that he came on these two or three occasions
7 sometime between late November 1992 and the end of that year? Is that
8 what your memory tells you?
9 A. Yes. Yes. That's the period I meant.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just permit me to just reread
12 briefly his last answer?
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
15 Q. All right. Now, you started to tell us about this occasion when
16 you were able to approach Mr. Tadic, and I'd like you now to continue your
17 narrative there. You've already described that there were a lot of people
18 who wanted to get to him. My first question -- to get to him and speak to
19 him. My first question is: Why did they all want to approach him and
20 speak to him? What was the reason?
21 A. Our understanding was that Miro Tadic could change the list, to
22 add somebody's name to the list so that person would go and be exchanged.
23 Q. On the two or three occasions that he came to Batkovic, did he
24 appear to physically have a list, that is, a piece of paper with names on
25 it? If you can tell us, please do; if you don't know, say so.
1 A. Yes. I said earlier on he had a list in his hands containing the
2 names and surnames of my fellow citizens.
3 Q. Thank you. All I want to know is if that was the case, that he
4 had such a list on the two or three occasions that he came.
5 A. Every time he had a list.
6 Q. Thank you. On the occasions that he came, did you attempt to get
7 close to him to be able to speak to him on the topic of exchanges?
8 A. Yes. When I got closer, I addressed him. I just said,
9 "Professor, may I talk to you a bit?" This was already the end. The
10 list had already been read out of the persons who were supposed to pack
11 and go for an exchange.
12 We went in the direction of the gate, the big iron gate. Its
13 dimensions were about 15 by about 7 metres. The guards who were around
14 him moved aside and the two of us walked through this iron gate into the
15 yard. The yard had a fence all around it, a wire fence. By "wire fence,"
16 I already mentioned that.
17 The two of us exchanged a few words and I said to him, "Professor,
18 I am ready to give some money for helping the Serb army. Please put me on
19 that list." He asked me, exactly, as he was looking into the ground,
20 "Where have you got this money?" And I said to him that I haven't got
21 any money on me, because the exchange goes through my town every time.
22 This was the ongoing practice. When I go to town, I would borrow money
23 from someone. He said, "All right. We'll see." And he continued walking
24 towards the exit out of this fenced-off yard. My task was to go back to
25 the hangar. I was awaiting the result.
1 The last time, to the best of my knowledge, he came to the area of
2 that camp in June 1993. I did not have an opportunity to see him.
3 My fellow citizens say that this was the last exchange that was
4 carried out through the Samac commission. I was disappointed, and I spent
5 the rest of the time there. And I don't know which town it was that
6 exchanged me and which commission.
7 Q. This conversation that you had with Mr. Tadic, was it the only
8 conversation that you had with him during two or three occasions that he
9 came to Batkovic? In other words, did you not speak to him on other
11 A. I did not have an opportunity to get close to him.
12 Q. Did you in fact have money available to pay if things had worked
13 out to your advantage?
14 A. I had some money at home. It was hidden away. When leaving my
15 town, my son, when he was leaving, he took this and everything was taken
16 away from him, snatched away from him at the line. I have certificates to
17 that effect.
18 Q. Why did you make this approach in this particular way, offering
19 money? What was your reasoning?
20 A. I was afraid of being robbed at home. My son had stayed back, and
21 I was already informed at the SUP, when I was detained there, by the other
22 inmates who were brought in after me, that my wife was taken to a camp as
23 well. So I was afraid that apartments would be searched because there was
24 robbery and looting all over the place.
25 Q. Yes. I think perhaps you misunderstand me. My question really is
1 directed to the issue of the money, the offer of the money. Why did you
2 offer him money? I mean, I understand what your ultimate purpose was, but
3 why did you choose that means to bring about your ultimate purpose of
4 getting an exchange?
5 A. Every camp inmate, the way I saw it, could not get out. Otherwise
6 either his family would give money or he personally would give money and
7 then he would be put on a list.
8 Q. Is that what you heard from other inmates, that they would pay
9 money to get out?
10 A. Yes. I heard from other inmates and also from my family.
11 Q. Is what you heard from other inmates and from what you heard from
12 your family connected with your offer of money? Is that the reason why
13 you, you offered money to Mr. Tadic?
14 A. I had a lot of time to think about this, why I wasn't on the list,
15 and as I talked about this with my other camp inmates, I came to this idea
16 on my own.
17 Q. What did you hear from the camp inmates, the other camp inmates,
18 as to the practice of offering money? What was your understanding?
19 A. That these people who had the misfortune of remaining at home,
20 that they gave money in order to be put on the list and be exchanged. We
21 who were detained could not have any money on ourselves because there were
22 frequent searches and money was taken away from us. So if some fortunate
23 person would have his family at home pay money for him, then he would be
24 on the list, and that is quite well known.
25 Q. Were you aware of such cases, such instances, in the time that you
1 were in Batkovic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In the time that you were at Batkovic, up to mid-1993 when
4 Mr. Tadic last came, were there other men coming with lists, other men
5 doing the same sort of job or performing the same sort of role as
6 Mr. Tadic or was he the only one?
7 A. The other accused who are here, I never saw them there, and I
8 didn't hear of them coming there. However, other teams did come. They
9 read lists, and they took detained people from there.
10 Q. In the time that you were in Batkovic, did you get any news of
11 your wife's whereabouts?
12 A. When I was registered the first time, after the 11th of August, as
13 being a camp inmate, on the 13th of December the following thing
14 happened: It was the first time I got a little piece of paper and a
15 pencil giving me the right to write to my family. To the best of my
16 knowledge, my family was no longer in Samac. I could not remember any
17 other addresses. So I wondered who I should write to.
18 I talked about this to the gentlemen from the Red Cross, and they
19 said to me that I should write the name and surname of my daughter, [redacted]
20 [redacted], and that they would try to find her. That is
21 what I did. That was my first contact with the world, through a piece of
22 paper and a pencil, on the 13th of December, 1992.
23 JUDGE SINGH: So, Witness, at the end of the day, did you pay any
24 money to Tadic?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not, because I got out in
1 1994, and to the best of my knowledge, he was not coming after the month
2 of June 1993.
3 MR. DI FAZIO:
4 Q. By the time you came to be exchanged in October 1994, were there
5 many Bosanski Samac people left in the hangar?
6 A. When I was taken to the line of delineation, as far as I can
7 remember, there were about 20 of us camp inmates. About 40 stayed behind
8 after me, who were still detained.
9 Q. Have you got any idea as to why it was that you were chosen to go
10 on that particular date? In other words, was there any rhyme or reason as
11 to October 1994 as opposed to June 1994 or some other day?
12 A. I think that only God brought this joy to me.
13 Q. What did you do after you were exchanged? Did you stay in
15 A. Yes. When I got out into the besieged Sarajevo, a transporter
16 took me. I think the transporter belonged to the UN. This lasted quite
17 awhile. However, the drive was only 500 metres. When I got out to some
18 kind of freedom, I thought that this was unreal. So for a long time, I
19 walked around a table where I was supposed to give my name and surname, my
20 year of birth and to say where I was from.
21 I was brought to another town which was unknown to me then because
22 that town had changed completely. When I came to a bit, I registered
23 there, and I asked these gentlemen who were working there on exchanges, or
24 to be more precise, Amor Masovic was there then. "Sir, I came to Sarajevo
25 several times. Tell me where is the centre? In which direction is the
1 Cengic Vila?" Because from earlier on, I had my brother there, Cengic
2 Vila, and I had intended to go to his place.
3 Everything seemed foreign to me. There weren't any trees around
4 me. Houses had been destroyed. There was nothing lively about the
5 place. Sarajevo was an empty town. Later on, I found out that these
6 people who were in Sarajevo were praying to God to get out of town. To
7 the best of my knowledge, Sarajevo was besieged, and there were three
8 encirclements around it: sniper shooters, tanks, mortars. Every day,
9 including that day, as far as I can remember, we were shelled in Sarajevo.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. di Fazio. I was about to ask where we were
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, I just want to know: Were you
15 eventually reunited with your family? I just want to know when, if and
16 when that occurred.
17 A. I was taken, and I will find this out later, to the command of the
18 1st Corps, where I gave them my information: who I am, where I'm from, my
19 date of birth. And I told him, "I have a brother," and they called him
20 immediately on the telephone. And at the first moment, we couldn't even
21 recognise one another. He had lost a lot of weight. He was deformed, and
22 most probably this is how I looked to him as well. We exchanged a few
23 words. We were not able to stand. We went towards his house under a rain
24 of bullets, a shower of bullets. When I got to the house, I had
25 difficulty recognising everything. His two daughters were with him. We
1 didn't have anything to eat that day. However, we were happy because we
2 were beginning to come together again.
3 Q. Were you reunited with your wife eventually?
4 A. It wasn't possible to call. There was no possibility. However,
5 some phone numbers -- or some telephones, which I didn't know before, were
6 at the Presidency, so my brother took me there and we told them about my
7 case, and they made it possible to get in touch with my wife from the
8 Presidency building, with my wife who was with my daughter in Austria.
9 I told her that I was released, and she asked, "What have you
10 decided?" And I said, knowing the situation in Sarajevo, the hunger, the
11 exhaustion, the siege, it was not possible to leave Sarajevo, but I was
12 offered by the UNPROFOR, the Red Cross, and the government to take me
13 out. Sarajevo looked big to me. Most probably, after that hangar and
14 that cell where I spent 27 and a half months, I didn't want to leave
15 Sarajevo. My wife took her bags and she came to Sarajevo. She entered
16 beneath the ground, through some tunnel, which I will later use on many
17 occasions. We remained there the whole time, until the news in the year
18 2000, in the month of October, when the Serbian government decided to
19 return my property to me, which was completely destroyed.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. And within 20 days, I --
22 Q. Sorry. I cut you off. Within 20 days you did what?
23 A. I packed, and on my own expense, [redacted]
25 [redacted]. That's how I estimate the time.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you give us a brief description, please, of the
2 state of [redacted] when you returned. What sort of condition
3 was it in, was it being used, that sort of thing. And just make it brief,
4 okay? We just need a brief summary of what's happened in respect of your
5 property, and we'll start with [redacted], okay?
6 A. When I arrived at Bosanski Samac, [redacted]
8 Q. What's the name of this lady?
9 A. [redacted].
10 Q. How much rent did she pay to you?
11 A. I never received a single dinar.
12 Q. [redacted]
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. di Fazio, I'm advised because of the
14 difficulties of spotting identifying matters of the witness, maybe we move
15 into private session now that we appear to be closing in on his family.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful for that. I'm sorry. Once again, it
17 escaped my mind, and I'm grateful to the Chamber for reminding me. Thank
19 JUDGE MUMBA: So just a few minutes.
20 [Private session]
13 Page 4365 – redacted – private session.
13 Page 4366 – redacted – private session.
13 Page 4367 – redacted – private session.
13 Page 4368 – redacted – private session.
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are now in open session.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Zecevic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. I'm attorney Slobodan
25 Zecevic. I will ask you some questions. And I kindly ask you, and I will
1 also try to formulate my questions in such a way, that you respond with
2 "yes," "no," or, "I don't know," to my questions if you don't know.
3 Sir, let's go back a little bit in relation to the questions that
4 were asked you by the Prosecutor. I would like to take you back to the
5 fire at [redacted]. If you remember,
6 on page 6, line 16 of the unofficial transcript, you explained that an
7 article appeared in the [redacted] magazine, if I understood you properly.
8 A. Mr. Zecevic, it wasn't some article. [redacted]
10 Q. So yes, there was an article in the [redacted] magazine?
11 A. Yes, there was an article in the [redacted] magazine.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Can I remind the witness, please, since you're
13 speaking the same language with counsel, do remember to pause before you
14 answer counsel's questions, because the interpreters have to complete
15 interpreting the question by counsel.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. In the transcript, when you paraphrase the contents of that
18 article from the [redacted] magazine, you said that it was something in -- along
19 the general lines of there was another burning in Bosanski Samac and
20 another explosion on such-and-such a day. Is this what you said?
21 A. There was another burning, [redacted]
23 Q. Allow me to read it back to you. I will read it in English
24 because the transcript is in English.
25 [In English] "Yes. Time at the beginning of 1992, an article
1 appeared in a weekly paper [redacted]
3 [redacted]. And there was a photograph and also an article on one page with
4 a general -- I cannot tell -- I cannot tell you the general sense of the
5 whole article word by word, but it went something like this: `In Bosanski
6 Samac, there's been another burning and another explosion on such-and-such
7 date. A weekend house and a farm burned down owned by -- it burned down.
8 It is assumed that there were weapons there, that the owner held SDA
9 weapons at that location.'"
10 [Interpretation] Did you state this yesterday?
11 A. Yes, something like that. It was assumed that there were arms
12 there. This is what I stated, sir.
13 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me -- you also mention an
15 A. Yes, I mention an explosion.
16 Q. Was there an explosion or not?
17 A. I'm not -- I wasn't there. The firefighters and the MUP were
18 there, and they have an official report. [redacted]
19 [redacted] the
20 firefighters were concerned that this would blow up and hurt other people,
21 and this is stated in the official report on this event.
22 Q. Thank you. I would like to read another portion from your
23 testimony of yesterday. This is a section of the unofficial transcript,
24 page 32, line 7 onwards:
25 [In English] "Now that I remember, and when I analyse, my town
1 seemed more like a barracks to me, a barracks that was within firing
2 range, and also the target of other weapons, so that the separation line,
3 the line of separation, was in direction of [redacted]
5 [redacted], so that we lived inside as if we
6 were exposed to constant shelling."
7 [Interpretation] Is it true? Did you state this?
8 A. Yes, that is what I said.
9 Q. Could you please tell me, sir: What you stated was something that
10 referred to the entire town of Bosanski Samac or it only referred to your
12 A. To the entire town of Bosanski Samac.
13 Q. This means so that the town was practically encircled and was
14 targeted the entire time?
15 A. Yes, it was encircled. It was encircled, and we were a target.
16 Q. It was constantly shelled; is that true?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you said that this referred to the whole town, I assume you
19 mean that it included all of the citizens of that town.
20 A. Yes, it did include all of the citizens of that town.
21 Q. This shelling and this feeling that you had, is that what you
22 meant when at one point, on page 37, line 10, you said:
23 [In English] "At every moment, from the 17th of April until I was
24 released, until I was sort of set free, I was exposed to danger"?
25 [Interpretation] Did you mean this also? Is that what you meant?
1 A. Yes, that too. That was also one of the reasons. Because it
2 would happen that my citizens, my fellow citizens in the town of Samac,
3 would be killed in the yards of their homes or in the rooms where we were
4 held, where we were detained in the SUP and TO buildings. Many of them
5 were killed in this way.
6 Q. From shells?
7 A. From shells. According to my information, a number of children
8 and women were also victims of the shells, women who were not active, and
9 also a large number of civilians. Some of those civilians were also being
10 held at the TO and the SUP.
11 Q. Thank you. Regarding your work in April of 1992 and onwards, you
12 stated, on page 31, line 25 of the unofficial transcript from yesterday,
13 you stated the following:
14 [In English] "We would load those sandbags into a truck and then
15 used them to protect certain buildings in Samac, like the municipal
16 building. We would also place these sandbags in front or behind windows,
17 as a parapet."
18 [Interpretation] Is this what you stated?
19 A. Yes, that is what I meant.
20 Q. Could you please tell me: The building of the Municipal Assembly
21 of Bosanski Samac, it's in the centre of town?
22 A. It's right by the river.
23 Q. On the other side of the river is Croatia; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So this is one of the places from which Bosanski Samac was
1 shelled; is that true?
2 A. I wouldn't know that.
3 Q. Could you please tell me, if you can remember: How high up did
4 you put these sandbags on the municipality building?
5 A. Two or three rows from the window sill, so there could be a bit of
6 light inside the building as well.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: May the usher please show the photograph -- I
8 believe it's P14, and the photograph is number F46.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: P14A, I think.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: P14A.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Zecevic, please.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I've been clicking it off and on. I'm
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's a bit of a task. We have to comply.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: You can put it on the ELMO.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, could you please tell me: Is this the
18 municipality building?
19 A. Yes, this is the municipality building in my town of Bosanski
21 Q. Could you please be so kind as to use the pointer and show us how
22 high up these sandbags went on the municipality building.
23 A. I'm going to avail myself of this opportunity, now that I've been
24 given the floor. This is the building, and 300 metres away from it, over
25 here, is this Spomen Dom. That was surrounded by sand. We loaded sand
1 into bags and we put it in, and then we loaded the sandbags into the
2 little truck owned by Hurtic. The little truck transported sand up to the
3 municipality building. Then we took these sandbags and then we went
4 through the hall and then we went to the fourth or fifth door there. I
5 know the municipality as well as I know my own pocket. This window here
6 and this window there were for the president of the municipality at that
7 time. That's what people talked amongst us. And this was for Milan
8 Simic. That's what people were saying. And it was nicely decorated
9 inside. There was also a TV set, tables, things like that.
10 Three or four rows we placed there, to the best of my knowledge,
11 because the sandbags were longer than the window sill, so they were a bit
12 folded. So then we put three or four sandbags up to the half of the
13 window, and then there would be some room left towards the top of the
14 window so that light could get in. If necessary, I can clarify this more.
15 Q. Thank you. Tell me, did you put the sandbags inside as well?
16 A. We went in through the building and then we put the sandbags
17 there. Some people helped from the outside so that they would not fall
18 off; and those who had the task of working inside, there was an open
19 window, and then we placed these sandbags on the window sill on the
21 Q. If I manage to understand what you've been saying, it is only the
22 upper part of the window that was used for bringing sunlight in; all the
23 rest was covered by sandbags.
24 A. Well, my estimate is that the sandbags took up about half of the
1 Q. These sandbags prevented light from coming in and sound; right?
2 A. No, sir. These sandbags were there for saving people, because the
3 shells would fall there from the line of separation. So it was because of
4 shrapnel, so that shrapnel could not fall directly into the building.
5 That is why these sandbags were put there.
6 Q. Yes. Yes. I have understood that, but I'm asking you, to the
7 best of your knowledge: These sandbags that were used as protection from
8 shrapnel also prevented light and sound from getting into the buildings;
10 A. Well, these sandbags probably did that. There was less light in
11 these facilities, and also there was less noise, if they managed to give
12 that kind of protection.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Could the usher please --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Zecevic, please.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone, Counsel.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. Could you please show the witness the
18 photograph number F56.
19 Q. Sir, this is the SUP yard, isn't it?
20 A. Sir, Mr. Slobodan, this is the yard of the SUP building where I
21 was locked up for three and a half months, underneath from where this
22 picture is, or, rather, three metres down are the windows where I was
23 detained for three months. I kept looking through this window all the
24 time. Oh, yes. This is the location of the SUP yard.
25 Q. Thank you. That's what I wished to know only.
1 Tell me, towards the top you can see some willows and the river.
2 Is that the Sava?
3 A. Mr. Slobodan Zecevic, these willows were full of communication
4 trenches where Serb soldiers were. And since I had the opportunity of
5 digging these trenches and cleaning them, these other willows towards the
6 top, they have other parapets and other trenches. Who was digging for
7 them and who was there at that time, I didn't know at the time. That is
8 territory of the previous Croatia and nowadays of the State of Croatia.
9 Between these two rows of poplars is my Sava River.
10 Q. Could you please use the pointer and point out the Sava River and
12 A. The Sava is here. Croatia is here.
13 Q. Thank you. Tell me, in the left-hand corner of this photograph,
14 we can also see a prefabricated building. This prefabricated building, is
15 it in fact in the yard of the municipality?
16 A. Yes. Before, these were garages that were intended for parking
18 Q. Please point all of this out on the ELMO.
19 A. Yes. All of these garages were made previously, before the 17th
20 of April, and they were used to park vehicles. And when the 17th of April
21 happened, many were used for detaining my fellow citizens.
22 So in garage number 4, there were two of my fellow citizens
23 detained in there, and they spent all of their time there while I was at
24 the SUP.
25 Q. I really do not wish to interrupt you. I beg your pardon. But I
1 just asked you about the prefabricated building in the left-hand corner of
2 the picture. That is in the yard of the municipality building.
3 A. Are you saying building number 1?
4 Q. No. See in the left-hand corner, you can see a roof and some
5 windows? Yes, that's it. Precisely.
6 A. This is part of the municipality building, of the municipal
7 assembly building. That is where the land surveyors were, those who
8 measured our ploughing fields and our houses and all the property we had
9 before 1992.
10 Q. Are you trying to say that this is where the land surveyors were
11 before the 17th of April, 1992? Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know whether this building was used at all after the 17th
14 of April, 1992?
15 A. Many buildings like the municipal assembly that we saw awhile ago
16 were moved to safer locations. I personally, sometime in the month of
17 June 1992 while I was still apparently free, from the attic of the
18 municipal assembly building, I collected documents and carried them to the
19 premises downstairs, the second room on the left-hand side. When you
20 enter through the entrance door of my municipal assembly, that's where it
22 We talked about this, but it seemed that it was to prevent these
23 documents from having a shell fall on top of that building and then
24 burning all of these documents.
25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. If I could ask the witness --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: By all means, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: -- a question.
3 Witness, could you tell the Chamber whether the prefabricated
4 building on the left of the picture also had sandbags halfway up the
5 windows there.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring to this building
8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not enter that building during
10 the course of the war. I don't know whether there were sandbags there.
11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
12 JUDGE SINGH: Just one question following from that. Looking at
13 that picture, you pointed out the Sava River, the trenches on this side of
14 the Sava River, your side, and then the barricades on the other side of
15 the Sava River, the barricades of the Croats. Now, when you refer to the
16 sandbags being placed there for protective measure, was it from the shells
17 coming from the Croat side across the Sava River?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The shells were coming from all
19 sides, shells unknown to me. I said before where the separation line was
20 in my town. It was driven through, so to speak. So I'm going to repeat
22 On the left-hand side, in my estimate, about 500 metres away from
23 my house which is in the centre of town; or from this location, 700 metres
24 as the crow flies, from the western side; on the northern side, 150
25 metres. From the eastern side, 2 to 3 kilometres.
1 I don't know exactly where they were coming from, but they were
2 coming every day from all sides.
3 JUDGE SINGH: My specific question was: Did shells also come from
4 the Croat side?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a civilian at that time, I had
6 concluded that they were coming from that side, too.
7 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: May I proceed? Thank you.
9 Thank you, Mr. Usher.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, tell me, do you remember -- since we're on
11 the subject of shelling, do you remember that the Croatian air force
12 attacked Bosanski Samac?
13 A. At that time, sir, I had already been detained, but I heard,
14 because news spread quickly amongst us, that some aircraft had come either
15 in October or November, to the best of my knowledge. And we laughed a
16 bit. That's what they told us, that that side did not have any weapons.
17 It was an agriculture aircraft that had come and that had thrown gas
18 canisters that were full of dynamite and pieces of iron, and they exploded
19 in my town, the location of the street that was formerly called Ivo Lola
20 Ribar. [redacted].
21 [redacted]. And this location is near the
22 waterworks, the waterworks that supplied our town with water, that is.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. I'm going to read another portion of your
24 statement from yesterday to you. Just bear with me for a second, please.
25 [In English] "As we were passing by, if we were going on foot, it
1 was very, very difficult to move because there were frequent checks in the
3 [Interpretation] Can you hear me, sir?
4 [In English] "And they were practically capturing Muslims and
5 Croats only because their name wasn't right. And they would take them to
6 the municipal building. And all of us citizens knew that, so that even
7 when we were going home on our way back from work, then we will hide."
8 [Interpretation] Is this what you stated?
9 A. Yes, sir, something to that effect, like what it was -- like what
10 was interpreted to me right now. I don't know whether that is what was
11 written down as well, but if necessary, I can repeat all of this.
12 Q. I'm just interested in this, what you said, the municipal
13 assembly. Have you referred to the municipal assembly building or some
14 other building? Could you please tell me what you meant if you meant
15 another building?
16 A. The MUP building.
17 Q. Thank you. Tell me, sir, we are going to show you a document now
18 that was shown to you yesterday as well.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Show the Witness P35, please. I believe that's the
20 order which the Prosecutor produced yesterday. It's P35, according to my
21 knowledge. Maybe it's a different number. I have it over here.
22 Mr. Usher, if --
23 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Usually when we have already got the
24 document --
25 MR. ZECEVIC: No. I'm sorry, Your Honour. I wrote "P35," but I
1 believe with --
2 THE REGISTRAR: Thirty-six.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thirty-six. Yes. That's why I --
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So the correct number is P36.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: That's right. Please put it on the ELMO.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, please take a look at this document that is
7 in front of you in the B/C/S language.
8 A. Yes, I can see that.
9 Q. Tell me, please, this order pertained to all persons, all citizens
10 of Bosanski Samac; isn't that right?
11 A. This order I never had in my hands, but often I heard through the
12 mass media in Bosanski Samac. I don't know what this referred to or who
13 this referred to, but most probably everybody had to observe this.
14 Q. Could you please be so kind as to look at it, look at this order?
15 Please read the text. I mean, you don't have to read it out loud. Read
16 it to yourself. We have an English version here.
17 Just tell me whether there is anything that states ethnic
18 background or something like that.
19 A. Mr. Zecevic, I did not come here to prove anything. I came here
20 to say this. Namely, what I heard and saw.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, you answer the questions put to you by
22 counsel. If you don't know, you say so. If you can't tell by looking at
23 this document and answer the question put to you by counsel, you say so.
24 I do agree with you that you may not be able to interpret
25 documents. So you simply say you don't know or you can't tell. Don't be
1 rude to counsel.
2 A. I do apologise if that is how I have been understood. However,
3 behind your back is a large number of my fellow citizens. I believe that
4 they all knew that.
5 Those previous prohibitions as far as ethnic background is
6 concerned, on the 17th of April, this remains imprinted in my memory.
7 Also this order that I see here in front of me, I think that it
8 related only to Bosniaks and Croats, because during the curfew hours, the
9 citizens of Serb ethnicity had to hold the lines and move about town.
10 Q. Sir, I just asked you to tell me whether in this document there is
11 anything stating that this refers to citizens of Croat and Muslim
12 ethnicity or not, or whether it pertains to all citizens; just that, yes
13 or no.
14 A. This document pertains to all citizens of Bosanski Samac.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, when you talked about that certificate that
18 you got three or four days later, after the 17th of April, actually, in
19 1992, you said that you came to the Uniglas building.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Over there, there were some other people who were waiting. You
22 said that they were all of Serb ethnicity; isn't that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You talked to them. Were they also seeking such certificates?
25 A. I had the opportunity of talking to them for about four or five
1 minutes, and they were seeking these certificates too.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Just bear with me, Your Honours.
3 [Defence counsel confer]
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Tell me, please: Like you, these were people who had some
6 business there, and that's what they needed these certificates for; right?
7 A. They were citizens of Serb ethnicity. They wore camouflage
8 uniforms. They did not have any weapons. I don't know what their
9 business was. Like my fellow citizen Laza Devetka, who needed a
10 certificate to get some business done in Serbia. I don't know what his
11 business was.
12 Q. Thank you. Tell me: When you entered this room where you saw
13 Milan Simic, you said in the transcript that with him,
14 Mr. Jovanovic -- there was Mr. Jovanovic with him too.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. This is Mirko Jovanovic; right?
17 A. No. Oh, I'm sorry. I don't know his name, but I shall describe
18 him, so if necessary, my fellow citizens will know who he is. Before the
19 17th of April, he was head of the economic department in the Municipal
20 Assembly of Bosanski Samac. He wore a beard. I don't know where he was
21 from. I think he was from the territory of Orasje. However, he had got a
22 job in Bosanski Samac perhaps a year or a year and a half before the war
23 operations started.
24 Q. So he was head of the economic department in Bosanski Samac before
25 the 17th of April?
1 A. If I introduced him properly.
2 Q. Let us just clarify one thing, please: This person whom you saw
3 in that room, with the last name of Jovanovic, was head of the economic
4 department in Bosanski Samac in the municipality of Bosanski Samac before
5 the 17th of April, 1992; is that correct?
6 A. That is to say that he worked in the Municipal Assembly. He was
7 the second person there in terms of importance, in terms of the categories
8 involved. It was the president of the municipality and then him.
9 Q. Thank you. Tell me: You know Milan Simic and his family well;
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Did Milan work as a clerk for this Mr. Jovanovic at that time or
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. You don't know?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Thank you. Sir, let me ask you something else now. You discussed
18 that yesterday with the Prosecutor during your examination. As far as I
19 can remember, you did your military service, didn't you?
20 A. Yes. I did my military service in 1972.
21 Q. In 1992, you were a reserve military conscript, weren't you?
22 A. I had my war assignment, wartime assignment, that if war were to
23 break out, I was supposed to report [redacted]. I was not a
24 member of the TO until the 16th of April, 1992. I had a wartime
25 assignment. That's the way things were in our country. Everybody knew
1 where they were supposed to report. I was supposed to report at
3 Q. So that was the place -- that was the wartime assignment that you
4 had before 1992?
5 A. Yes, sir. That's right.
6 Q. In this company, at [redacted], that's where you worked; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You have worked there for a long number of years; right?
9 A. On the 15th of December, 1969.
10 Q. You started working then and you've been working there from then
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. [redacted]
14 A. [redacted]
15 Q. Do you know, since you worked in this state-owned enterprise and
16 you had your wartime assignment there, et cetera, do you know that work
17 obligation in case of an immediate threat of war or threat of war was the
18 obligation of each and every citizen?
19 A. Yes, I know that. It was the obligation of each and every
21 Q. Thank you. This obligation was general, wasn't it, except for
22 those who were military conscripts?
23 A. I did not quite understand your question, but I agree with you
24 that that's the way it is.
25 Q. When I put this question to you, I was referring to the
1 following. Let me just explain this to you in order to prevent any
2 misunderstandings. Work obligation was general, whereas military
3 obligation pertained to those who had wartime assignments, that is to say,
4 military-aged men between the ages of 18 and 60; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So if you were involved in the military obligation, if you had a
7 wartime assignment, then you did not have a work obligation; right?
8 A. Yes. My wartime assignment was to report at the gasoline station,
9 because this was of military significance.
10 Q. Tell me, if you remember: In 1992, did you want to join the JNA?
11 A. Yes. I had already been there. I considered myself to belong to
12 the JNA units.
13 Q. Could you please explain how you considered this?
14 A. I don't understand your question.
15 Q. Were you in some JNA unit in April 1992?
16 A. No, I was not.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: I see it's 11.00. Maybe it's ...
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will take our break and resume at 1130
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We will continue later.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome, Slobodan.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at a 11.33 a.m.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The cross-examination is continuing.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, just one request. I've been warned by the
2 interpreters, so please wait until my question is completely interpreted
3 and then begin with your answer. I will try to be as slow as possible,
4 and I would ask you also to do the same. The interpreters work very hard,
5 and we need to give them time to translate everything that's being said.
6 A. Yes. I understood. I will try to fit in. It's not -- I'm not
7 used to sitting here and answering questions.
8 Q. Thank you. Sir, please tell me: On the 16th of April, you joined
9 the TO of the BH; is that right?
10 A. Yes. On the 16th of April, 1992. I joined as soon as I received
11 a weapon. I joined the TO of the BH.
12 Q. Thank you. I would like to go back to some documents that the
13 Prosecutor showed you yesterday.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Would the usher please show the Witness P39 ter.
15 Q. [Interpretation] You remember the document from yesterday, don't
17 A. Yes. This is a list of names from 1 to 9, the names of my fellow
19 Q. Could you please tell me: In column number 3, under the column --
20 under the title "Work post," their duties, their work is stated, isn't
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You said that you know the gentleman under number 2. Is that
25 A. Yes. This is my fellow citizen Dzevad Celic, and [redacted]
2 Q. Do you know the gentleman under number 1?
3 A. This is my fellow citizen Sejfudin Sejdinovic. [redacted]
5 Q. So you do know him.
6 A. Everybody on the list.
7 Q. Sir, could you please tell me if you know whether this group of
8 nine people made up the list of people for work obligation.
9 A. I don't know whether they did or not.
10 Q. In the title, it says: "The clerks and others, DR, for the
11 brigades." Is that what it says?
12 A. Yes, that's what it says.
13 Q. Could you tell me what is the usual job, the usual work of the
15 A. The clerks, as far as I know, work with pens and paper.
16 Q. Thank you. Sir, could you please tell me the following: In your
17 previous statement, you said that as far as you know, the gentleman under
18 number 2, your family friend, did not work as a clerk up until the 11th of
19 August, i.e. up until the date that you were detained.
20 A. Yes. Dzevad Celic went with me to the work assignments several
21 times. He wasn't working as a clerk until the 11th of August, 1992.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: May I have the document number 1, which I -- Your
23 Honours, I would like to introduce a document and be marked for
24 identification. Actually, this is -- this is the payment list of the
25 reference typists, the couriers, and the other couriers who are working on
1 the organisation of work in the working brigade. That's the title of the
3 JUDGE MUMBA: During the period --
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. During the period from April until August.
5 Actually, if I may just assist the Court.
6 When I disclosed the document P39 ter to the Prosecutor, this
7 document was actually the second page of that document when I disclosed it
8 to the -- yesterday the Prosecutor used this page only, and this second
9 page is basically referring to the first page. But in any case, I would
10 like to introduce it.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: So we haven't had that page which you call the
12 second page?
13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry?
14 JUDGE MUMBA: We haven't received that page which you call the
15 second page?
16 MR. ZECEVIC: You haven't seen it. I'm just now introducing it.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So we can have it marked for
18 identification only. It hasn't got the official English translation, not
20 MR. ZECEVIC: No, Your Honours, I'm afraid not, not yet.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: For identification purposes only.
22 THE REGISTRAR: The identification number will be D23/2 ter.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, might I just cross the
24 courtroom and confer with my colleague? I'd like to make sure that I've
25 got the same document in my hand that he has.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Because I can't tell. I suspect I've got the right
3 one, but I'm not sure.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: By all means.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please do so.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. We sorted that out.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Sir, could you please look at this document.
10 A. Yes, I've looked at the document.
11 Q. Would you kindly read the title of the document, on the top of the
13 A. "Payment list of the clerk, typist, courier, summons courier, and
14 those working to organise the work in the work brigade."
15 Q. Could you please read the clerk, item number 2.
16 A. It says here the name Dzevad Celic.
17 Q. I would just like to ask you once again to pause between my
18 question and before you begin your answer.
19 After the name and the surname under number 2, in continuation,
20 there are some numbers which pertain to certain months.
21 A. Yes. They pertain to April, May, June, July, and August. Total
22 time, total amount, and also remarks.
23 Q. Could you please tell me: These numbers under item 2 - 4, 26, 31?
24 A. Total number of days, 61.
25 Q. Do you understand this to mean that these are the days that the
1 gentleman under item 2 spent on work duty?
2 A. I understand that as meaning that Dzevad Celic spent 61 days over
3 the past five months as a clerk, working as a clerk.
4 Q. But you claim that this is not true?
5 A. Celic Dzevad did not work as a clerk until the 11th of April.
6 When I was taken into the SUP building, I heard from my fellow citizens
7 who were brought in after me that Mr. Dzevad Celic was working on those
8 duties which are more or less described in the heading of the document. I
9 firmly claim that Dzevad Celic was not a clerk. I have proof of that.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can you just wait? The witness mentioned
12 the 11th of April.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, exactly. That was what I --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Could you clarify that with him?
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Sir, you said the 11th of April. Did you mean the 11th of August?
18 A. Yes, I did. I meant the 11th of August.
19 Q. Thank you. Could you please also read to me, if you see it on
20 this copy, what it says at the bottom of the page, where the signature
22 A. [redacted]. That is the name of my fellow citizen and
23 also my school friend.
24 Q. That's the gentleman who is on this list under item number 1; is
25 that right?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. Above his signature, it states "certified by."
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. Does that mean that, according to you, do you understand this to
5 mean that the information that is in this document was verified [redacted]
7 A. I would rather say that he falsified this information.
8 Q. Thank you. If I understood you properly, you allow for the
9 possibility that some of these documents are incomplete because they
10 pertained to the months of April to August, but they were compiled in
11 November. Is that right?
12 A. No, that is not what I meant. I meant that specifically Dzevad
13 Celic was not a clerk, and I have proof for that.
14 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that the same mistake could have
15 appeared in some other documents?
16 A. Yes, I do. It's possible for mistakes to creep up.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Would you be so kind to show the witness two
18 documents simultaneously: D22E/2 ter and P37 ter.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Which documents?
20 MR. ZECEVIC: D22E/2 ter and P37 ter.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you were shown yesterday or the day before
22 both of these documents; is that right?
23 A. Yes. I think that these documents were shown to me. I can see
24 the names and the surnames of my fellow citizens.
25 Q. Thank you. I'm only interested in the following: Could you
1 kindly read the heading of the document that you are holding in your hand,
2 and that is D22E/2 ter. Could you just please read the heading.
3 A. "List of workers engaged in the work brigade for the months of
4 April, May, June, July, and August 1992."
5 Q. Thank you. Would you kindly read the heading of the second
6 document, and that is the document P37 ter.
7 A. "List of the workers engaged in the work brigade for the months of
8 April, May, June, July, and August 1992."
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction: "Payroll list of the
10 workers engaged," and so forth.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Could you please tell me if there is anything above what you have
13 just read to us?
14 A. "Supplemental." "Supplemental payroll list."
15 Q. Do you take this as a document which can be attached to the
16 previous document?
17 A. Sir, I cannot claim something like that. I don't have any reason
18 to claim that, because the previous document has been certified on the
19 last page. The earlier, previous pages are not certified anywhere, and
20 this document here is certified. And I would say that it belonged to some
21 other document which is not certified at the end.
22 Q. When it says "Supplemental payroll list," does that usually
23 indicate that information has been added which was not included in a
24 previous document?
25 A. Yes. That's what it means to me as well.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. Mr. Usher, you can take the documents.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, yesterday during the examination-in-chief,
4 you said the following, and I will read it back to you --
5 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Zecevic.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE SINGH: I'm so sorry to intervene at this stage. You asked
8 him a question that P37 was supplemental to D22E.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE SINGH: I assume you have checked both lists and all the 11
11 names are indeed D22E.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry?
13 JUDGE SINGH: Are all the 11 names in D22E?
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry.
15 JUDGE SINGH: You see, you've got 11 names in P37, right?
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE SINGH: And this is supplemental you put to him.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. And they're already included in this.
19 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. Are they all in D22E?
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, I know, Your Honour. Yes, I know.
21 JUDGE SINGH: I'm asking you to confirm.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Oh. I'm sorry. I didn't understood.
23 JUDGE SINGH: No, no. I'm asking you to confirm if all these
24 names are there.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I have to check it out, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE SINGH: Then you must check this out before you even ask him
2 the question, because if it's not, then it cannot be supplemental.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: No, no, no. Your Honours --
4 JUDGE SINGH: So can you check it out now, please?
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, I will. Please bear with me.
6 Your Honours, what I was referring is that this document, by its
7 title, says "Additional list." That was the only purpose of my questions,
8 that this is additional list.
9 What I'm trying to explain to this Honourable Trial Chamber is
10 that the lists are not complete. So there are some additional lists,
11 because people who are working on that probably missed some of the people
12 who were -- who are not on the original list. That was the only purpose
13 of my question.
14 JUDGE SINGH: So the words "Additional payment" --
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry.
16 JUDGE SINGH: So the words "Additional payment" on the top does
17 not mean additional payment to those persons to whom payment is set out in
19 MR. ZECEVIC: No. It means additional people which have not been
20 included in this list, the previous -- D22E/2 ter.
21 JUDGE SINGH: Additional names.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Additional names. Exactly.
23 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Let me read to you what you stated earlier. This
1 is unofficial transcript page 42, line 10 onwards:
2 Q. Doing the best you can --
3 [In English] This is the question posed to you from the
5 JUDGE MUMBA: And please read it slowly.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, of course I will.
7 Q. Doing the best you can, about how many people did
8 you hear of being killed in the way that you've
9 described between April and August when you were
11 A. I think that I said two or three men. Several
12 persons were wounded.
13 A. Sir, Mr. Slobodan Zecevic, which people did you mean, those who
14 were detained at the SUP or those who were working in the communication
15 trenches or those who were in the town of Bosanski Samac?
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the witness is right to ask that.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but I haven't posed the question
18 at all.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: The witness was answering to me before I posed the
21 question to him.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. You hadn't completed. Because it's fair
23 to tell him about which aspect.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course. Of course. It was my intention, but I
25 didn't finish the question and I didn't want to cut short the witness.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. I think maybe you can go ahead now.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Excuse me, sir. We probably misunderstood one another. I meant
4 the following: You responded to this question when you were talking about
5 the people who were killed -- while -- killed or wounded while carrying
6 out their work obligation.
7 A. Yes. I understood the question. According to my estimate, two to
8 three men were killed while performing the jobs of digging the
9 communication trenches or cutting the grass in front of the communication
10 trenches. So two or three of my fellow citizens were killed.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Would the usher please show the witness P38 ter
14 Q. [Interpretation] You looked at this document yesterday, isn't that
16 A. Yes. This document was before me yesterday.
17 Q. Could you please tell me, under the heading "Killed," how many
18 numbers are there and how many names of people?
19 A. Unfortunately, three people.
20 Q. So this is in accordance with what you told us a little while
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Under the heading "Wounded," how many?
24 A. Under that column, "Wounded," four of the citizens from my town.
25 Q. According to your information, is this correct?
1 A. There were many that were wounded. There were many more wounded
2 and there were many more killed.
3 Q. Sir, I'm only thinking -- I'm only limiting myself to those
4 persons who were in the work brigades.
5 A. If you are thinking of the work brigades, when we were taken out
6 from the camps, then I would add, sir, Slobodan Zecevic, that many more of
7 my fellow citizens were killed while digging trenches and carrying out
8 forced labour jobs than there are on this list.
9 Q. I see that we will have to clarify this. The document that is in
10 front of you pertains to the months of April through August 1992; isn't
11 that right?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. It says "workers in the work brigade" in the heading, and then it
14 says, in brackets, "killed or wounded"; isn't that right?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. A few minutes ago you confirmed that the number of killed persons
17 corresponds to what you remember and what you know; isn't that right?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. Now I'm asking you about the number of wounded persons. Does that
20 match what you know? If you don't know, just say "I don't know," and if
21 you do know, say either "yes" or "no."
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That means that it corresponds to your own knowledge; this which
24 is written in this document corresponds to what you know?
25 A. Yes, it does.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. Very importantly, you did not ask me whether it pertains to these
3 four or five months. You asked me, to the best of my knowledge, whether I
4 agree with the number of persons wounded who were in the work brigades. I
5 said that I did not agree. However, when I see this document, for all
6 these months, to the best of my knowledge, yes, I do agree.
7 Q. I do apologise. My mistake. I shall try to be clearer in the
8 future. I do apologise.
9 Let us just finish with this document. So in your opinion, the
10 facts mentioned in this document are true, to the best of your knowledge?
11 A. Yes, as far as I could be informed of such matters.
12 Q. Tell me, sir: Yesterday when you were answering the Prosecutor's
13 questions in relation to work obligation, a few times you said that you
14 did not know about some persons whose names were read out here, whether
15 they were involved in work obligation or not; isn't that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know that work obligation, as I said, was of a general
18 nature and that it existed in all companies in Bosanski Samac that were
19 operating at the time?
20 A. Had I not been aware of that, that everybody had work obligation,
21 I would not have responded to each and every call-up when we were supposed
22 to go into action [as interpreted]. I would have stayed sitting at home,
23 thinking that it was not my obligation to do this.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. The witness has said -- it's 48,
2 4. He said "to go into working action" and not "the action."
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, so you want to --
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. May I ask the witness again to clarify that?
5 JUDGE MUMBA: To clarify, yes.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. I think that there is a mistake in the transcript, a small one.
8 You said that, "Had I not been aware of that, that everybody had work
9 obligation, I would not have responded to each and every call-up when we
10 were supposed to go into working action." Is that what you said, "work
12 A. I think that's the way I put it. God gave it to all of us. God
13 gave us all eyes, ears, and the power of speech. We are all not the same
14 as far as play with words is concerned. I was referring to forced labour
15 that we went to do every day. There is a possibility that I make a
16 mistake in the future as well.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you know that in companies like the Samac textile
18 industry, there were people who were working in terms of work obligation?
19 A. I know about that firm, and I always tried to sidestep it, because
20 this is where Serb soldiers were staying, those who wore uniforms, and
21 whoever went there would return with bruises. When Serb soldiers would
22 find out that this person was of Muslim ethnicity, then my fellow citizens
23 would sometimes be beaten up at that facility.
24 Q. All right. Do you know then, for example, in the company of
25 Master, did you know that there was work obligation?
1 A. Yes, I know about that. A fellow citizen of mine was working
2 there, and he tried, day after day, as he was going to work obligation at
3 Master, to give us some food while we were detained at the SUP. We were
4 fortunate because his brother was among us. During the first 15 days or
5 so, I was in front -- I was in the front part of the SUP building in
6 Bosanski Samac. I had the opportunity of seeing this man when he went for
7 work obligation. A few times he succeeded in giving us a sandwich or
8 something, so we would share this among ourselves. He had work obligation
9 at Master.
10 Q. Thank you. I am only interested in whether you know that other
11 fellow citizens of yours had work obligation in Bosanski Samac or in other
12 institutions. Just yes or no, please.
13 A. Yes, everybody. All Muslims and Croats had forced work
15 Q. Is it possible that because they worked in these enterprises, you
16 did not see them there where you worked?
17 A. Yes. Many times when I would be taken to a different location, I
18 would not have the possibility of seeing all my fellow citizens when they
19 were working at other facilities.
20 Q. Thank you very much. Tell me, sir: A while ago, today, this
21 morning, in response to the Prosecutor's question that had to [redacted]
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Tell me: [redacted]?
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Please, could you just pause before you answer. I don't even
3 manage to switch off the microphone, and the interpreters should also be
5 A. Yes, sir. [redacted].
6 Q. Tell me, please: Do you know that in line with the law on
7 abandoned property, the tenants of such shops are duty-bound to pay rent
8 to the municipality? Do you know that?
9 A. No, I don't know about that. I don't know. I considered things
10 like that to be robbery.
11 Q. You say "robbery." Did anybody ever take away your ownership over
12 this shop?
13 A. Yes, as soon as I was detained and exchanged. On several
14 occasions I was told, "What have you got to do in Bosanski Samac?" Or to
15 be more precise, in Serb Samac. "You are here. You have nothing any
16 more. Don't you know that this is Serb land?"
17 Q. In documents concerning [redacted] and the ownership of [redacted]
18 [redacted], ever over these ten years was anybody else's name put in there
19 instead of [redacted]
20 A. I did not have this before me. However, if I am the owner of
21 something, no one can transfer this to someone else's name without my
23 Q. I absolutely agree with you.
24 A. Why are you putting this kind of question to me?
25 Q. In order to clarify some facts. You answered my previous question
1 by saying that you did not know about rent being paid to the municipality
2 for the use of your shop; right?
3 A. I'm not aware of that. And I would wonder where this money went.
4 I would wonder whether a single shop or house was taken away from anyone
5 of Serb background. I would wonder whether all of that which was taken
6 away was returned.
7 Q. You are certainly aware of the fact that this happened all
8 happened over Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sarajevo and elsewhere; isn't that
10 A. I felt this on my very own skin quite pronouncedly. [redacted]
12 [redacted]. Buildings were made, and many participants in this
13 courtroom here live in these apartments [redacted]
15 Q. Of course, you are talking about the time before the 17th of
16 April, 1992, and we here are not interested in that.
17 A. Yes. Yes. That's when we were the owners of that. After the
18 17th, in 1992, I would like to erase all of that, all of it.
19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. I have a question, actually for
20 yourself, Mr. Zecevic. You were saying that where there were abandoned
21 buildings, the tenants, so I presume new tenants, [redacted]
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: -- would pay rent to the municipality.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Exactly, Your Honour.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So what I would like to know is, obviously being
2 unfamiliar with the municipal law there --
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course.
4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: -- what did the municipality do with that money
5 that was paid in rent?
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I really can't answer that question,
7 because I don't know what has been done, but during our case we will
8 present the proof that these funds have been under the control of the
9 municipality, and as far as I know, the previous owners, or the real
10 owners, are entitled to ask from the municipality reimbursement of all the
11 rent which was paid to the municipality.
12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Let's just clarify something. You were talking
15 about these buildings, about the property that your ancestors had in
16 Bosanski Samac.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You thought that this was taken -- you meant that this was taken
19 away from you during the communist regime, right?
20 A. You asked me whether before 1992 I had owned anything.
21 Q. Sir, that's not what I asked you. I just asked you about your
22 boutique, only the boutique.
23 A. Oh, the boutique. The boutique? I was the owner until 1992. And
24 after the month of November 2000, that's when I became the owner again.
25 Q. In the meantime, was somebody else the owner?
1 A. You asked me whether I know that this could be given to someone
2 else, handed over to someone else.
3 Q. Let us just understand each other clearly. There is ownership and
4 there is use. You are the owner but it was used by somebody else because
5 you were not in Bosanski Samac, as we know; right?
6 A. I could not get my personal documents either, let alone documents
7 about ownership over something that I had. So I was kicked out of my own
8 town. I did not get any documents where it said that I was the owner of
9 something. I did not have the possibility of getting my personal ID, and
10 I own that too. Even that was taken away from me. And I only had a card
11 that was issued to me by the Red Cross, the International Red Cross with
12 its seat in Geneva. There was a number on it and a name and a surname, no
14 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Zecevic, what is the exact thrust of your
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours --
17 JUDGE SINGH: He says he had a boutique. He owned it in 1992.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
19 JUDGE SINGH: And then in the year 2000, after he came back, he
20 repossessed; right?
21 MR. ZECEVIC: He repossessed it. Exactly, yes.
22 JUDGE SINGH: So what is the question between 1992 and 2000 now?
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, the point, Your Honour, is that his ownership
24 was undisputed all this time.
25 JUDGE SINGH: Yes, but --
1 MR. ZECEVIC: His ownership is undisputed. The possession is the
2 other thing. That was the only question that I wanted to ask him, whether
3 someone else was owning this particular boutique since 1992 until 2000.
4 That was the only thing I wanted to ask. And he said -- I mean, the
5 witness was explaining other things. I just wanted that answer to that
7 JUDGE SINGH: I understood you to mean that between the year 1992
8 to the year 2000, whilst he was away, somebody else may have been using
9 it and --
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
11 JUDGE SINGH: -- and the question possibly to ask is: "Did you
12 rent it out? Did you give permission to anybody to use it while you were
13 in detention?" That is the first question.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: No. Exactly, Your Honours, but he answered that
15 question that no rent was paid to him and that he never rented this
16 boutique, while he was examined-in-chief this morning. So I didn't want
17 to repeat myself again.
18 So I know that he didn't rent it on his own will, and he never
19 received the rent. I'm just trying to focus on the ownership, nothing
21 JUDGE SINGH: So what is the question? Because he has said that
22 he was the owner.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. But I would like the witness to answer if he
24 knows whether somebody else was, in the meantime, from 1992 until 2001, if
25 somebody else -- was somebody else listed in the books as the owner, so
1 that his ownership was taken away from him.
2 JUDGE SINGH: You must frame the question clearly to him.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: I am trying my best, Your Honours.
4 Q. [Interpretation] I hope you've understood what the point of my
5 question is. Do you know that between 1992 and the year 2000, when this
6 boutique was returned to you, that anybody else's name was in any kind of
7 document as the owner instead of you?
8 A. No, I'm not aware of any such thing.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. I would like to ask the witness a
11 question if I could.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 It would appear from my question to counsel a few minutes ago that
14 for the period that someone was renting your property, between 1992 and
15 the year 2000, that rent would have been paid to the municipality in your
16 town, and it would appear from what we've heard that you would be entitled
17 to go to the municipality in Bosanski Samac and seek compensation for that
18 period, 1992 to 2000.
19 I have two questions for you, Witness. The first is: Were you
20 aware -- are you aware that you're entitled to compensation? And
21 secondly: If you are aware, have you actually, since being back there in
22 your town, have you made a request for compensation and received it?
23 A. Madam, I hope that you've put this question to me.
24 I have been there for 13 months now. During those 13 months, I
25 went to various institutions with the request to bring electricity back to
1 my house. Everything that I had to do, starting with the electricity
2 meter to the switches, nobody wanted to give me a thing. [redacted]
4 I have always been given the following answer: that I should find
5 the thief, either by myself or with the assistance of the police of
6 Bosanski Samac, and then that they would prosecute the person who took
7 away my equipment.
12 [redacted] had to pay for that pole before
13 the war so that we could get electricity. I said, "People, there was an
14 electricity pole here before." And they said, "Well, it's not there, and
15 if you want electricity, you will have to pay for this pole again and to
16 pay for power being brought to your boutique."
17 When I realised where I came back, when I rented out this boutique
18 to a gentleman of Serb ethnicity, I asked him that he ask for electricity
19 to be returned and that he asked for some kind of compensation. In that
20 case, he did get electricity back within two days. And I paid myself for
21 having the boutique painted, and I put in a few electric switches. And
22 now he is paying rent to me on a regular basis.
23 I did not have the money [redacted]. Wherever I would get,
24 I would have to start with electricity. And then I thought perhaps
25 somebody would give me some other material or some equipment, but I did
1 not meet with any understanding from the commander of the police station
2 to the manager of the power supply company. And the International Red
3 Cross is --
4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Witness. My question was directed
5 solely to the issue of the rent that was being paid, the money that was
6 being paid to the municipality and so on. If you could just address
8 First of all, did you go, have you been to whatever the official
9 municipal offices are in Bosanski Samac to seek money back for the rent
10 that was paid by whoever was the tenant? Could you answer that, please?
11 A. I was not in a position to ask for that. I didn't even know about
12 these regulations. Not a single citizen of Muslim or Croat ethnicity who
13 returned did get any compensation for the use of either business premises
14 or a house.
15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
16 JUDGE SINGH: Just a follow-up there. [redacted]
23 [redacted]. And from our own savings that we saved up from our salaries, we
24 created this. And we created this new workplace for her. And this was
25 her new workplace until the 17th of April, 1992, until this was taken away
1 and until all the goods were taken away. All of it was plundered.
2 JUDGE SINGH: My simple question is: After -- just before 17th of
3 April, did you -- did you rent this premises out to anybody else? Yes or
5 A. No.
6 JUDGE SINGH: Okay.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Singh, please.
8 JUDGE SINGH: The next question is: While you were away from 1992
9 to 2000, did you know at any time that somebody was occupying your
10 premises, either operating it as a boutique or operating it as something
11 else, and did he have your permission to do so?
12 A. That person did not have any permission. [redacted]
15 When we warned her, saying that she was in this facility
16 illegally, without our permission, she answered us over the phone, "What
17 do you want? Do you know that this is Republika Srpska?"
18 JUDGE SINGH: Now, the last question: Did you go to the
19 municipality and find out if she had been paying rent to the municipality,
20 rent which was in fact due to you?
21 A. Your Honour, I did not check this.
22 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: May I proceed?
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: May I proceed?
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, let's go back to the period immediately
4 before the 17th of April, 1992. As you told us here, you possessed this
5 semi-automatic weapon.
6 A. Yes, I did, until the 17th of April [as interpreted].
7 Q. Yesterday during the examination-in-chief, you said that you do
8 not remember who gave you this weapon in the TO building.
9 A. Yes. I think that that is what I said.
10 Q. On the 30th of August, you gave a statement to the Prosecution,
11 1998. Is that true?
12 A. I do not remember the exact date.
13 Q. But you did give them a statement; is that right?
14 A. Yes. I gave a statement on several occasions.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Would the usher please assist me.
16 I would like to present this statement to the witness. It's the
17 statement given to the Office of the Prosecutor on 30th of August, 1998.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Just show it to the witness so.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The witness said that
21 he had owned or possessed the weapon until "17 hours," and not until the
22 "17th of April." Page 59, line 4 of the transcript.
23 A. Yes. It states here my name, my surname, date of birth, the year
24 of birth, and the place of birth.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. And you see that it says here as the date of the interview as the
2 30th of August, 1998.
3 A. Yes, that's what it says, the 30th of August, 1998.
4 Q. Could you please look at the last page? There is a confirmation
5 of your signature there, isn't there?
6 A. Yes. It says here, "Witness acknowledgement."
7 Q. Thank you. This is one of the statements.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry. I was directed there is a problem with --
9 please bear with me, Your Honours.
10 Q. [Interpretation] We have a problem. We will go back to your
11 statement. A little while ago when I asked you about the weapon, the gun,
12 you said that you had it in your possession for a total of 17 hours; is
13 that right?
14 A. Yes, for about 17 hours. That's right.
15 Q. From the moment you took it until the moment you gave it back; is
16 that right?
17 A. As far as I know. The municipality of Srpski Samac has better
18 information. It is in possession of the proper documents, so that they
19 will tell me, and probably, with their consent, we will arrive at the
20 exact time.
21 Q. I only asked you this so that we could clear up something in the
22 transcript, because something else was written in the transcript. Thank
24 This is your statement, isn't it?
25 A. I haven't read it, but I hope it is my statement.
1 Q. Would you please look at it.
2 A. I'm not checking, but I will just see if it is really my
4 Yes, sir, Mr. Slobodan Zecevic, this is my statement.
5 Q. Thank you. A little while ago you said that you spoke with the
6 Prosecutors on several occasions.
7 A. Yes, on several occasions. Whether it's called "the Prosecutor"
8 or "the Prosecution," I don't know, but it does say here "The
9 International Criminal Tribunal for the Prosecution of persons responsible
10 for serious violations of international law committed in the territory of
11 the former Yugoslavia since 1991."
12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting, but I
13 just -- I'm a little unclear if the witness and Mr. Zecevic are talking
14 about investigators or prosecutors, meaning lawyers from the --
15 MR. ZECEVIC: The investigators, of course.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful. I wasn't clear about that. Thank
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Just to clarify something: You spoke with the investigators from
21 the Prosecutor's office? Did you speak with them?
22 A. I couldn't tell you for sure. I had contacts with many people
23 after the war.
24 Q. But this is the only official statement that you gave?
25 A. Sir, I gave many statements, in the press, in the media, and also
1 these statements. I gave a statement as soon as I was released from the
2 transporter of the UN on the 4th of October, 1992. Who they were, whether
3 they were investigators or whether they were fellow citizens over there of
4 my Sarajevo at that time, I really wouldn't be able to tell you.
5 Q. Thank you. Would you kindly turn to page 4.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: I wonder if Mr. Zecevic could tell us where in the
7 English it is so that I could follow this portion of the evidence.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: It is --
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Unfortunately, they're not numbered, but --
10 MR. ZECEVIC: It is the page number 3.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: It's the fourth paragraph.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone, Counsel.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. It's the page number 3, fourth
16 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, would you be kind enough to read the fourth
17 paragraph of this statement. It begins: "At 9.00 a.m. of the same
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Please read it slowly.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Could you please read it out loud.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. That's what I wanted to clarify with you.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Would you please read it out loud.
25 A. Me?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Yes. I apologise. I didn't understand that I was supposed to
3 read it out loud.
4 "At 9.00 a.m. the same morning, I heard Ibrahim Salkic speaking
5 from a megaphone. From the megaphone, he asked all of those who were
6 given arms at the TO to hand those weapons over to the Serbs and thus
7 avoid further problems. I didn't know if he was captured at that time.
8 He was one of the men who armed us at the TO. I surrendered my rifle to
9 one member of the Serb paramilitary."
10 If that is the passage that you meant.
11 Q. Yes, that is exactly the one that I meant. You indicated here
12 that Ibrahim Salkic was one of the persons who gave you weapons at the TO;
13 is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Yesterday, in response to the Prosecutor's question, you said that
16 you did not remember who armed you.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Does that mean that now you remembered, now that you have read
19 this statement, and is it true what you stated in 1998?
20 A. What I stated in 1998 is true. And I would also like to say
21 something else. I believe that everything that I saw and heard is not
22 possible for me to express. I would need maybe three months for somebody
23 to listen to me, and even then I wouldn't be able to tell everything.
24 I think that there were five or six people there whose names I
25 didn't know. I'm not very good with names. I'm suffering some
1 consequences. I still can see quite far, and I hear very well. If
2 necessary, I will explain how this came about. There were several people
3 of Serbian nationality who were present when the weapons were being
4 issued. One of them was called Durmusic. His father's name is Janko. He
5 worked at the TO. The second one wasn't there. He was the commander of
6 the TO. His name was Milos Bogdanovic. He's of Serb ethnicity, from the
7 village of Skarici. He's not among the living any more. I wish he was,
8 so that he could confirm that he was the commander.
9 If you wanted me to tell you why I received the weapons from him,
10 I thought that this was a multi-ethnic army; that the commander, the
11 Serb -- was a Serb; that the second person who was issuing the weapons was
12 a Serb; that the other man, Mato, who worked at Velepromet, was a Croat;
13 [redacted] I was
14 expecting this to be a multi-ethnic army and that we would be defending
15 the town from the enemies, who would disrupt the life together in Bosanski
16 Samac. However, this is something that I was disappointed about.
17 Q. Thank you, sir. So on the 16th, you didn't know that the
18 commander of the TO, the gentleman you mentioned just now, the Croat Mato,
19 and Marko Bozanic -- Bozanovic - I apologise - and Alija Fitozovic, this
20 is something that you didn't know on the 16th?
21 A. No, I didn't know that they were the commanders. As far as I was
22 concerned, on the 16th, the commander was Milos Bogdanovic.
23 Q. Thank you. During your examination-in-chief, you stated that on
24 the night of the 17th of April, you left your house, with your rifle, and
25 went to the centre of town.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. "The centre" is a sort of general term. Could you give us a
3 little more detail?
4 A. The centre of town is where the green market is.
5 Q. This is near the park; is that right?
6 A. Everything is close in Samac. I don't know exactly what you
7 mean. Perhaps some 50 metres away as the crow flies.
8 Q. From the park?
9 A. From the park.
10 Q. During your testimony, you said that while you were standing there
11 at that place with other people, the firing, the shooting, was getting
12 closer to you; is that right?
13 A. Yes, that is what I said.
14 Q. On that same page, you said the following in response to the
15 Prosecutor's question:
16 [In English] "Did you or any of the other men fire any shots in
18 [Interpretation] Your answer was:
19 [In English] "No. There was no firing out of anger or any kind of
20 rage, and there was no shooting between the warring factions."
21 [Interpretation] My question is: If the shooting was getting
22 closer to you and you weren't shooting, who was actually shooting?
23 A. Unfortunately, my fellow citizens, who happened to be at the
24 entrance to the town. Many of them are no longer alive.
25 Q. Thank you. So this means that there was shooting between the
1 warring sides; isn't that right?
2 A. Yes. That is what I said, that there was shooting.
3 Q. Thank you. Sir, could you please tell me: You were a member of
4 the SDA; isn't that right?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. Were you a member of the party military unit of the SDA?
7 A. No, I wasn't a member of the party military unit of the SDA, until
8 the 17th of April.
9 Q. Were you a commander of the logistics or the supply squad of that
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the witness's
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Could you please repeat your answer.
15 A. This is the first time that I heard about that, at the trial in
16 the spring of 1993, at the court in Bijeljina.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: May I have the usher --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: It's the number 2 document. Would you please mark
20 it for identification purposes. It's the -- [No interpretation]
21 JUDGE MUMBA: What? Which document?
22 MR. ZECEVIC: I don't know in English. That's why that's the name
23 of the document. Supply unit. Supply unit, yes. I'm sorry.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: What number is it?
25 THE REGISTRAR: The ID number will be D24/2 ter, identification
2 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I'm a bit tired.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Can I just see the document briefly so that I can
4 clarify it's the same one?
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Would you please look at this document.
7 A. Yes, certainly, with pleasure. Yes. This is a document where
8 there are the names and surnames of my fellow citizens.
9 Q. Is your name at the beginning of the document under the item
11 A. Yes, that's right. [redacted]. This is my
12 phone number. Had you asked me, I wouldn't have known it off by heart,
13 but now I remember. This is the phone number that was never returned to
15 MR. ZECEVIC: I just --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Your microphone.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I asked very properly. I said: "Is it
19 your name which appears as a commander on the top of that? Just answer
20 yes or no." And the witness --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have that problem usually.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, but I mean, I really didn't anticipate
23 that the witness will read the document.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Normally that happens, because of the flow of the
25 evidence --
1 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I'm truly sorry, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: That will be redacted.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, of course.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: And depending on the area of cross-examination,
5 maybe --
6 MR. ZECEVIC: No. I'm not -- I'm not -- this was just -- nothing
8 JUDGE MUMBA: One of -- okay. It's not necessary for private
10 MR. ZECEVIC: No, no. It's not necessary that we go into private
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. The name will be redacted.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Could you please tell me: Have you ever seen this document
16 A. Never, before the 17th of April, 1992.
17 Q. Did you see it at the military court in Bijeljina?
18 A. They didn't show it to me. However, in the material, I was
19 charged as being the commander of the supply squad.
20 Q. Does it state at the very beginning of this document "supply
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You said that other people who are on this list are your fellow
24 citizens and that you know them.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know, if you know, whether anyone else from this list was
3 A. [redacted].
4 Q. I don't know either, believe me. Only if you know.
5 A. Yes, I do know most of my fellow citizens.
6 Q. Do you know if any one of them was arrested? This is what I'm
7 asking you.
8 A. Yes, I do. He was arrested together with me.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Please just read -- don't read the names,
13 please. Just read the number.
14 A. Number 2 was with me for a long time, if we're thinking of the
15 same person. Number 6 was with me for a long time. Number 8 was with me
16 for a long time, and his father, who was born in 1911.
17 I know the others, but I know them by name. So I'm afraid that I
18 would make a mistake.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Mr. Usher.
21 Your Honours, thank you. I have finished my cross-examination.
22 [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: I think at this stage we have a few matters to
24 discuss before the other counsels can start cross-examination which, from
25 the time, may not finish today. So the cross-examination will continue on
1 Monday, from 0930 hours. And can the witness be led out of the courtroom,
3 [Witness stood down]
4 JUDGE MUMBA: We have to vacate the courtroom by 1.00 so that the
5 equipment can be harnessed in for the meeting in the gallery this
7 I just have one item for the Prosecution which the Trial Chamber
8 would like clarification on during the latter stages of your case with
9 witnesses. The area is rather grey. Maybe it's too early in the
10 Prosecution case. This is the issue of forced labour.
11 From the evidence received so far and from the cross-examination,
12 one can see that it's a very grey area. There were people who had
13 assignments before the war, who had been in the military before, who had
14 been informed that, "At any time when war is declared, you report to
15 such-and-such a place for your work obligations during the war period."
16 There were people who were not assigned like that, who were not --
17 who had not been in the military, either due to age or whatever reasons,
18 but who were assigned work obligations when the war started in 1992.
19 From some of the lists shown to the witnesses, there are names of
20 professional people like doctors, for instance, health workers, for
22 Now, we have to clarify whether some of the professional people
23 who had to work during wartime, after the war started in 1992, were
24 working in the same institutions where they were working and were getting
25 the same salaries that they were getting before the war but who were
1 ordered never to leave, or whether the case was that even those who
2 continued within their professions in the same institutions were not
3 paid. And the other issue is whether or not in any of those categories of
4 people who were made to work during the war, were they paid or not or was
5 it a question of low wages for the labour.
6 So these matters have to be clarified as you proceed with your
7 witnesses, because it's quite a grey area to be able to determine what
8 amounts to forced labour under the circumstances of this case.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: The question of salaries and the question of --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: The question of salaries and the question of
12 professionals working in places like the hospital and so on.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because we have the evidence that some lists
14 were shown to witnesses that did say that these were doctors. They appear
15 to have continued to work as doctors, as medical doctors during the --
16 after the war started, and is the question whether they were ordered never
17 to leave their places of work, for instance, to leave Bosanski Samac
18 altogether, to resign like any employee would do, and whether or not they
19 continued receiving the same salaries or it was low wages or no salaries
20 at all.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: For instance, this witness still on the stand did
23 say -- he did explain where he was working before the war. He did say he
24 was supposed -- it was something like he was supposed to go back to work
25 at that station after the war started, but he explained.
1 So even though he was given other assignments, did the company
2 where he was supposed to continue working, where he had been working
3 before, pay anything to him, recognising the work that he was assigned to
4 do after the war started.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: These areas need to be clarified during the further
7 evidence that may be eliciting from your witnesses, because in other
8 trials, it is quite a grey area as to what amounts to forced labour --
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: -- when an indictment is drawn the way this one is
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Sure.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand the concerns --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: -- and I will make sure that the witnesses -- that
17 we proof the witnesses on these issues and we get every bit of evidence
18 that might be useful to the Chamber in that respect.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Just thinking off the top of my head, one of the
21 witnesses that we deleted from our list was, in fact, a doctor who worked
22 in Bosanski Samac. May I just very briefly confer with my colleague?
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You'll deal with that.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll deal with the issue that you have raised.
3 Thank you. Yes.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber was informed that Mr. Pantelic
5 wanted to raise some issues.
6 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours. Very briefly. During these
7 proceedings, I think that we established -- we have a well-established
8 practice about this swapping the place of our defendants.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: The accused, yes.
10 MR. PANTELIC: Yesterday, the court officer -- well, court
11 policeman here was in charge, like a superior to the unit of yesterday --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
13 MR. PANTELIC: -- by his own initiative made another position of
14 the defendants which might be a problem for the future. So the issue is
15 whether we are following your instruction here or instruction of this
16 particular person.
17 If -- the bottom line is if the interference in this situation
18 will occur in future, then we shall be in situation to lose and not to
19 know what the previous position was, because my understanding was that for
20 each particular witness, we have the same position of the defendants, and
21 then for the next witness, the next position.
22 If it will be -- changes during the examination of one witness,
23 then it will -- we shall be bring into the situation where we shall not
24 follow the standards.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. If --
1 MR. PANTELIC: I mean, I'm very sorry. I said to my learned
2 colleague here not to raise this to the Trial Chamber, but they told me --
3 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The position was that, and the position is
4 still that -- for each witness, before a new witness comes --
5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: -- the defendants change positions.
7 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right?
9 MR. PANTELIC: And if we have two days of examination --
10 JUDGE MUMBA: They retain those positions.
11 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. It's illogical to change for the --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. They retain the same positions until we
13 finish -- before the next witness comes, they again vary their positions,
14 retain those positions and up to the end of the witness.
15 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely. That was my understanding.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: There's no problem with that.
17 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you so much. I hope Ms. Registrar will
18 inform, although I have very nice relations with all the officers, and
19 they are very kind and very professional, still but, you know, there are
20 some persons who think that my --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
22 MR. PANTELIC: Another short issue, Madam President, is that on
23 several occasions I raised that issue that we need as soon as possible the
24 transcript from yesterday's session for today during our cross. So I
25 kindly ask and beg my dear friends from the Registry to -- I know that
1 they are overloaded, but to do the best specifically for this period, when
2 we have a cross, to obtain these transcripts. Because today, for example,
3 we didn't get --
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yesterday's --
5 MR. PANTELIC: From yesterday, yes.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
7 MR. PANTELIC: And it's a little bit hard to go through this
8 working draft version. So I hope that it will be done.
9 And also, I hope that our learned friends from Prosecution will
10 inform us about the list of coming witnesses for next week so that we can
11 have an idea how many witnesses we have and then if we can be informed
12 according to our previous practice, of course. Thank you so much.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I wanted to assure Mr. Zecevic and Mr. Milan
14 Simic and the other defendant, Mr. Tadic, that the Trial Chamber is
15 following up the issues raised for -- they are aware of the -- in the
16 cells within this building.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I didn't follow you, Your
19 JUDGE MUMBA: The matters you raised regarding the heating system
20 and the chair for Mr. Tadic as well.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is following that up.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you so much. I'm sorry, I didn't follow Your
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would also like to thank you, Your
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Honours. I would just like to thank you, thank you for the efforts made
2 by the Trial Chamber to have this resolved as soon as possible.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: You're welcome.
4 We shall adjourn now until Monday, 0930 hours.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.05 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day
7 of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.