Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5086

1 Tuesday, 04 December 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. Case number IT95-9-T,

8 the Prosecutor against Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and

9 Simo Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution is continuing its

11 examination-in-chief.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. If Your Honours please,

13 yesterday, you made a query regarding the time frame that the witness was

14 talking about when he was referring to this Spomen Dom meeting. I've

15 checked the transcript. He mentioned June or late June.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: 1992?

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, yes, yes.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]

21 Q. Witness, I'd just like to go back briefly to the Spomen Dom

22 meeting that you mentioned yesterday. You told us how you became aware of

23 it with the posters around the town, and the attendants, the number of

24 people who were there, the ethnic background, and some of the

25 personalities who addressed the meeting. Were there any armed guards at

Page 5087

1 the meeting?

2 A. Yes, there were. I saw two of them standing at the door at the

3 entrance to the Spomen Dom.

4 Q. Can you tell us if they were members of the 4th Detachment?

5 A. I don't know exactly whether they were members of the 4th

6 Detachment, but they were armed, and they were standing by the door.

7 Q. How long did the whole meeting take?

8 A. The meeting lasted for a very short time. After the speech by

9 Jovo Savic, people started leaving the meeting. I think Vlado Sesic stood

10 there and wrote down the names of those people who had left the meeting.

11 Q. Did you have to sign in or notify anyone of your attendance at the

12 meeting, the fact that you'd gone there? For instance, sign in on a

13 document or something like that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You mentioned that some people did take up the invitation to take

16 up arms. Do you know if they did that at the meeting, or was that

17 something you learnt subsequently?

18 A. Right after the meeting.

19 Q. Did you consider taking up arms and relieving yourself of work

20 obligation?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you about the -- your commencement of

23 work in Odzak. About when did you start going to Odzak?

24 A. Sometime around the 9th, after the mosque was destroyed. That's

25 when I started working in Odzak, the 9th, the 10th, July.

Page 5088

1 Q. I apologise, Witness. I realise there are a number of issues on

2 the Spomen Dom meeting that I didn't ask you about and I must ask you.

3 I'll get on to Odzak just shortly.

4 You said that there was a great escape that followed after the

5 meeting in the Spomen Dom.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you give us an idea of the sort of numbers of men who made

8 their escape?

9 A. Around 130 people.

10 Q. How did you become aware of it the fact that these men had

11 escaped?

12 A. The next day, right in the morning when we gathered in front of

13 the local commune building.

14 Q. Were people talking about it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was the meeting ever -- sorry, the escape, rather, ever commented

17 on over the radio?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did you hear said over the radio as regards this escape?

20 A. I think that the announcer, Mira Ljujic [phoen] said over the

21 Radio Samac that the remaining people should be dealt with, because we

22 were all the same, and the best thing would be to let us go down the river

23 Sava and not across the river.

24 Q. The expression used, "go down the river Sava," can you think back

25 and tell us precisely what the expression was that she used to describe

Page 5089

1 going down the river Sava?

2 A. That we should be killed, the rest of us.

3 Q. Did this radio announcer have a nickname?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What was it?

6 A. Sesula [phoen].

7 Q. Following the escape, was there any change in the conditions of

8 life for the inhabitants of Bosanski Samac, and yourself included?

9 A. As far as I'm concerned, there were no changes. I continued

10 working, but the families of those who had escaped were gathered up and

11 taken to the Zasavica camp.

12 Q. I may have asked you this, but I'd like to -- like you to remind

13 the Chamber just again. About how long after the night of the escape, did

14 the Zasavica roundup of civilians occur?

15 A. One day later.

16 Q. Was that commented on or mentioned in the radio, as far as you can

17 remember?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to turn to Odzak, please. You've told

20 us that you started going there around the 9th and 10th of July.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And was that as part of work groups sent from Bosanski Samac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is it the case that you would go there, work during the day, and

25 then return at night to Bosanski Samac?

Page 5090

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How were you transported to Odzak?

3 A. By truck.

4 Q. You've mentioned earlier that there were armed guards who

5 accompanied you on previous work assignments. Were there armed guards on

6 your trips to Odzak?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On these trips to Odzak, were there women workers present on the

9 trucks?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On the way to Odzak, did the truck have to pass through

12 checkpoints?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In Odzak, is there a hotel?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where did you normally assemble and report for work duty when you

17 were going to Odzak?

18 A. In front of the hotel.

19 Q. Can you describe the scene that you saw of Odzak to the Chamber

20 when you went there for the first time on such a work detail? What did

21 the place look like?

22 A. It was abandoned. There was a lot of destruction. A lot of

23 houses had been burnt. I saw that the mosque had been destroyed.

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Witness, to your knowledge, do you

25 know who was suspected of blowing up the mosque?

Page 5091

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned that later on. I was not

2 there when the mosque was destroyed.

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Could you tell us what you learned later?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned later that the army

5 destroyed the mosque, that my fellow citizen was there when the mosque was

6 blown up, and I heard it from him.

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you. So when you say "the army," so you're

8 saying the JNA blew the mosque up, to your knowledge?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was the reservists who

10 did that, because when we say -- when I say "JNA," I mean the young

11 soldiers. And the people who were 50 years of age, I do not consider them

12 to be members of the JNA. These were the Serb reservists, paramilitaries

13 of sorts.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'll be leading at a later

16 point fuller evidence of the destruction of the various religious

17 institutions.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, you had mentioned that a couple of

19 witnesses ago, so this will be being done with a future witness? Is that

20 my understanding?

21 MR. DI FAZIO: And this witness has got matters -- can talk about

22 the destruction of these religious institutions as well, so there will be

23 evidence from this particular witness on the various institutions, as

24 much as he can tell, of course. But I will lead evidence of it.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

Page 5092


2 Q. Yes. Now, I think you said that you would report to the hotel for

3 your work assignments. What I want to know is this: The tasks that you

4 were assigned in Odzak, were they given to you in Bosanski Samac, or is it

5 the case that you were taken to Odzak and there handed work assignments,

6 there in Odzak informed of what it was that you were to do?

7 A. We were driven from Samac, and we were given our tasks in front of

8 the hotel, the tasks that we were supposed to do in Odzak.

9 Q. Did you ever see Simo Zaric in Odzak?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How often?

12 A. Very often. Virtually every day.

13 Q. Where did he have -- I'll rephrase that question. Did he have an

14 office in Odzak?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where?

17 A. I saw him often standing by the bar at the entrance, and

18 allegedly he had an office upstairs. But he sat there at the table all

19 the time.

20 Q. I take it you mean the hotel?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you ever see him issuing orders and instructions to various

23 people around the place?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you have any idea of what sort of authority or position he

Page 5093

1 held in the city of Odzak, the town of Odzak?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell us what you know about that.

4 A. I think he was -- he had the superior authority. He was in charge

5 in Odzak.

6 Q. Turn your attention now to the moments when you would be gathered

7 in front of the hotel receiving your work assignments. Who assigned work

8 to you? That is, who came up and orally -- and told you, actually told

9 you, spoke to you, explaining what your work assignment would be for that

10 day?

11 A. It was Stojan Blagojevic. He issued orders to us, and he

12 guarded us.

13 Q. How big was the work detail or the work group that went to Odzak?

14 How many of you were there?

15 A. Around 50 of us would gather in front of the hotel, men and

16 women.

17 Q. Now, when Mr. Stojan Blagojevic was telling the assembled people

18 what their work would be, was Simo Zaric ever present?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On such occasions, would he be in a position to hear what was

21 being said to the assembled workers, in your judgement?

22 A. He probably could have heard me because he was quite near.

23 Q. Did you ever see any sort of communication going on, talking,

24 exchange of documents, anything like that, at about the time that

25 Blagojevic would hand out the work assignment?

Page 5094

1 A. No.

2 Q. When Simo Zaric was present at the time that work assignments were

3 being handed out, what would he be doing?

4 A. He looked at us, and he would often say that an additional two or

5 three people should join such and such a group or five people should go

6 there.

7 Q. Yes, thank you. What sort of work did the women do in the group

8 that used to go to Odzak?

9 A. They cleaned the town, did maintenance in the hotel, cleaned the

10 police station, cooked food for the police, and cleaned the apartments of

11 those Serbs who returned to Odzak.

12 Q. And give us an idea of the sort of work that the men were

13 engaged, not just the work that perhaps you did, but the work that you

14 knew other men were doing. Just give us a list of the type of tasks.

15 A. One group worked on the farm, and another group looted the town,

16 taking things out of apartments, and I did work on the water supply system

17 in Odzak. I did some repairs and some preparations for the

18 re-establishment of the water supply system in Odzak.

19 Q. Insofar as looting is concerned, did you participate in that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who would decide, for example, which street or houses had to be

22 looted?

23 A. Stojan Blagojevic led us. And before that, he had a meeting with

24 Mr. Zaric, and that is where the orders that were issued to us stemmed

25 from.

Page 5095

1 Q. Okay. Do you know the town of Novi Grad?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. During your trips and your work, labours, in Odzak, did you ever

4 have occasion to go to Novi Grad?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Dusko Popovic? Just answer me yes

7 or no.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell the Chamber of the circumstances under which you went

10 to Novi Grad.

11 A. One day I was picked up from the water supply company in a police

12 car, and I was driven to the hotel. Mr. Zaric then said I should go to

13 Novi Grad to repair the hydrant line. They said I would be taken to Samac

14 to take the materials I need and then on to Novi Grad. And then he

15 addressed Dusko Popovic, who was a policeman of the Serb Republic - Simo

16 Zaric addressed him - and said, "If he fails to repair it, hang him

17 there."

18 Q. Let's go through this a little more slowly. Am I correct in

19 understanding that you were already engaged on work at the water supply

20 company in Odzak when a police car came to your job site, got you, and

21 took you back to wherever Simo Zaric was, and then this conversation

22 occurred?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Earlier in your evidence, you told us of your training as a

25 plumber and how you had done work on domestic and industrial plumbing,

Page 5096

1 appliances. Was the sort of job that you eventually did at Novi Grad

2 something that was within your capability, something that you could do?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Very well. After this conversation, or rather, after you heard

5 the words from Mr. Zaric, "If he doesn't repair it, hang him there," were

6 you in fact taken to Novi Grad, and did you work on some sort of water

7 works installation there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How long did you -- how long did you work at the job?

10 A. That day, I worked very late. It was already dark when I

11 finished. But I had to finish.

12 Q. Did you stay overnight in Novi Grad?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Were you taken from the water works to Simo Zaric, where you heard

15 his words about repairing it, and then from there, to Novi Grad, under

16 armed guard?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. In the time that you went to Odzak, did you ever come

19 across a gentleman named Perko? P-e-r-k-o, Perko.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you ever do any particular jobs with him?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Tell the Chamber what that particular job was.

24 A. We were burning books.

25 Q. Okay. Now, give us a bit more detail. Was this -- were you part

Page 5097

1 of a work group when you did this?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was it within the town of Odzak or a neighbouring village? Where

4 exactly was it?

5 A. It was in the town of Odzak.

6 Q. About how many workers were engaged in this particular task of

7 burning books?

8 A. We were about eight.

9 Q. Who assigned this particular job to you?

10 A. It was the teacher by the name of Perko, a man from Montenegro. I

11 don't know his last name.

12 Q. How was it that he could order you to do any sort of job at all?

13 Did he hold some sort of authority in Odzak, as far as you're aware, or

14 did he liaise with anyone? Do you know, in other words, how he acquired

15 the authority to direct you to do a job?

16 A. He told us then that he got his orders from the command.

17 Q. Were you at the hotel or assembled at the hotel at the time that

18 you got your orders from Perko or started off on the job with Perko?

19 A. We were gathered outside the hotel. Perko picked us out. And

20 before that, he had come out of the hotel, selected us, and we started

21 off.

22 Q. Do I understand that to mean that he had been inside the hotel

23 first and then came out and selected you or the workers who were to

24 accompany him? Is that a correct understanding or not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5098

1 Q. And this occasion, were you assembled in front of the hotel, as

2 you were on the other occasions when you started work in Odzak? In other

3 words, was it part of the normal routine that you had at Odzak?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Very well. Tell the Chamber what Perko decided was your work

6 assignment for that day.

7 A. To take out books from various homes, houses and apartments, books

8 written by non-Serbian authors. We were to pile them up and burn them.

9 Q. First of all, the homes that you took them from, can you comment

10 on the apparent ethnic background of the occupants of the house, if you

11 can tell us?

12 A. Those were Muslim and Croat homes.

13 Q. They were presumably empty homes?

14 A. Yes, they were.

15 Q. Explain to the Chamber how it is that you can walk into a home and

16 tell if it's Croat or Muslim. What sort of things do you look at to help

17 you identify what sort of people used to live in the house?

18 A. It is very easy to identify Croat homes. You would see the

19 crucifix there and similar things, pictures of the Madonna and so on. And

20 Muslim homes are also easy to tell, if you look at the furniture, the

21 objects around.

22 Q. Thank you. Was there any way of --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: What about the other ethnic group, the Serb houses?

24 What would distinguish them?

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I was just go to get on to that topic.

Page 5099

1 JUDGE MUMBA: I was thinking he was mentioning things you find

2 inside the houses.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: So perhaps they would get in and say, "Oh, this is a

5 Serb house," and perhaps get out.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Or perhaps not go in at all.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. If there were signs outside the house.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I was about to get on to that very topic, if

9 Your Honour pleases.

10 Q. Perhaps, Witness, you heard the discussion between myself and Her

11 Honour. And we are interested to know if there was any way of identifying

12 a Serb house when you were carrying out this sort of --

13 A. That was very easy because it was written on the door, "Don't go

14 in. Serbian fighter," the cross with the four letters "S." A Serbian

15 house was very easy to tell.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. By those symbols which were outside the door?

17 Is that what you're saying, Witness?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I'm saying.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.


21 Q. Were these symbols ever spray-painted?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps on the symbols, the things he's talking

24 about, how you identify different homes belonging to different ethnic

25 groups, was that always the case, even before the war? Even today is that

Page 5100

1 the case? Or was it just during that period when the war -- did the

2 differences arose 1991, for instance, up to about 1993, or is that the

3 way people live there?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was an abnormal way of

5 life, and this marking of houses started in 1992.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

7 Q. Just on this issue, you've mentioned that once you got inside a

8 house, you could tell if it was Croat by various religious insignia and

9 symbols; and once you got inside a house, you could tell if it was Muslim

10 by the style of the house and the interior decoration, I suppose. Was

11 that something that had always been in Bosnia that -- and long before the

12 war, you would be able to tell if you went into a house whether it was a

13 Croatian house or indeed a Serbian house or a Muslim house, judging by the

14 things that you'd see inside it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. But this other phenomenon that you mentioned, the

17 insignia, the slogans written on the front of the house that there was a

18 Serb fighter there, and that sort of thing, was that apparent before the

19 war, or was that something that happened during the war or started after

20 the war?

21 A. That started during the war, the marking of houses.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, I gather, then, that it was easy for to you

23 select or avoid going into, rather, Serb-occupied homes by the insignia on

24 the outside. Was that the only thing that stopped you from mistakenly

25 going into a Serb home?

Page 5101

1 A. Since Stojan Blagojevic often escorted us, he knew those houses,

2 and we didn't enter Serb houses at all.

3 Q. Did he -- on the occasions of your entering the Croat and Muslim

4 houses, did he point out which ones were to be entered and your work done?

5 A. We went from house to house.

6 Q. Thank you. All right. Now let's get back to this episode with

7 Perko and the books, please. I think you said that you selected books by

8 non-Serbian authors. Were these -- what did you do with these books?

9 A. We would stack them and then burn them.

10 Q. Were there individual stacks of books, or was it by bonfire, so to

11 speak?

12 A. It was more like a bonfire.

13 Q. Tell the Chamber how you were policed to make sure that you chose

14 the non-Serb books, or indeed, how you chose non-Serb books. What was it

15 that you looked for in the book to decide if it was Serb or non-Serb?

16 A. We would take out books, and then the teacher, Perko, would

17 inspect them, dividing them into groups, non-Serbian writers to one side,

18 and the other books to be burnt on the other side.

19 Q. What happened to the books that made it through this cleansing

20 process, in other words, the Serb books?

21 A. Perko, the teacher, took them, because a library was supposed to

22 be established in Odzak.

23 Q. I see. Thank you. How long did this job take?

24 A. It took up the whole day.

25 Q. Thank you. Do you know a gentleman named Fadil Mustafic?

Page 5102

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Can you tell us if he is distantly related to any of the

3 defendants?

4 A. He's related to Mr. Simo Zaric's wife.

5 Q. In 1992, the period of time that you were going to Odzak, about

6 how old was he?

7 A. About 60.

8 Q. And of what ethnic background was he?

9 A. He was a Muslim.

10 Q. Was he doing forced labour assignments in Odzak?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What sort of work was he doing?

13 A. He tuned cars in the SUP in Odzak.

14 Q. Did he normally reside in Bosanski Samac or elsewhere?

15 A. In Bosanski Samac. That's where he resided.

16 Q. When he was working in there, did he ever stay overnight in

17 Odzak?

18 A. He did.

19 Q. Did you ever hear, overhear, any conversation between Fadil

20 Mustafic and Simo Zaric?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. Can you recount that conversation to the Trial Chamber, please, as

23 carefully as you can, what you overheard and who said what?

24 A. One day, when we were going to lunch, Mr. Simo Zaric was sitting

25 at his table. Fadil Mustafic approached him and asked him, "Simo, when

Page 5103

1 are you going to let me go?" And he replied, "Brother" - using the word

2 for brother-in-law - "be good and I'll let you be exchanged."

3 Q. Where was this lunch?

4 A. At the hotel.

5 Q. Did Fadil Mustafic ever manage to get out through an exchange?

6 A. He did.

7 Q. Now, how did he manage that?

8 A. He was together with me when we were transferred to the Batkovici

9 camp, and he returned to Samac in 1993. Then Fadil Topcagic from Samac

10 took him all the way to the Hungarian border, where Fadil's son, Dino,

11 gave him 4.000 Deutschmarks and got him out, got him out of Samac.

12 Q. Gave who 4.000 Deutschmark?

13 A. To Fadil Topcagic.

14 Q. Is this something you heard about later?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Pero Krstanovic?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. Did you ever see him when you were doing labour assignments in

19 Odzak?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. Did you ever hear Simo Zaric speak to him in Odzak?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Once again, please tell the Chamber of what you overheard and what

24 happened on the occasion that Krstanovic spoke to Mr. Zaric?

25 A. I don't quite understand the question, I mean.

Page 5104

1 Q. In the course of your assignment in Odzak, did you ever dismantle

2 installations in homes?

3 A. I did.

4 Q. Did you ever dismantle any radiator systems?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. Were you ever instructed by Simo Zaric to dismantle any

7 radiator systems?

8 A. I wasn't personally, but he instructed Stojan Blagojevic and Pero

9 Krstanovic.

10 Q. Were you present when that -- when he issued those instructions?

11 A. I was.

12 Q. Did you in fact go on to dismantle radiator systems?

13 A. I did.

14 Q. Okay. Well, that's the episode that I'm interested in. So let's

15 start at the beginning, and you can tell us what you overheard and what

16 you did.

17 A. It was the second house, if you go from Odzak towards the Catholic

18 church. I dismantled the heater from the central heating system, together

19 with the radiators. We also dismantled some of the installations because

20 those were copper pipes, very expensive at the time, and we loaded that on

21 the truck, driven by Pero Krstanovic.

22 Q. What I'm actually more interested in, though, is what happened

23 before you did the job, how you received the instructions, what you heard

24 being said about the job, and who said it. That's what I'm interested

25 in.

Page 5105

1 A. Well, it was a long time ago, but I think Mr. Simo told us to pick

2 out the good things, and that's what we did.

3 Q. How many of you were engaged in this particular assignment

4 involving these copper expensive radiator systems?

5 A. I was assisted by Sead Zigic, and later more people joined us from

6 this work detail when we were loading the heater onto the truck.

7 Q. Did you receive the instructions for this particular job as usual

8 in the -- in front of the hotel in Odzak?

9 A. Well, you could say it was in the usual way, with the proviso that

10 Mr. Simo came personally to see us, because the house was very close to

11 the hotel.

12 Q. Do you mean he attended at the job?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did he watch what was going on?

15 A. He just took a look, and then he went back.

16 Q. Whose house was it?

17 A. It was a Muslim home. I don't know the name of the owner.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I'd like to ask the witness a question just for

20 clarification.

21 It appears I think that you said that Mr. Zaric told

22 Mr. Stojan Blagojevic and Mr. Pero Krstanovic to go and dismantle the

23 radiators and the copper pipes. Is that correct?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And then the orders that you got to go to the

Page 5106

1 home and participate in that dismantling, did you get those orders from

2 those two gentlemen, Mr. Krstanovic and Mr. Blagojevic?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were my immediate superiors,

4 who led me wherever I was supposed to go and guarded me at the same

5 time. They would take me to a house, and I would have to do whatever they

6 told me.

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.


9 Q. Can you tell the Chamber if after those two gentlemen, Krstanovic

10 and Blagojevic received their orders from Mr. Zaric, were you then taken

11 to the house to conduct the extraction of the radiator system?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. And you tell us about how the job ended. You got to

14 the point where you said it was -- I think, it was placed on a truck. And

15 Where was the radiator system taken after that?

16 A. To Samac, in front of Fadil Topcagic's house.

17 Q. Did you go on the truck to accompany this equipment?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What happened at Fadil Topcagic's house?

20 A. That's where we unloaded this, the radiators and the heater, in

21 front of his house.

22 Q. Did you then drive away, leaving it there?

23 A. No. We did not drive away because we all lived in Samac, so

24 everybody just went back to their homes.

25 Q. I see. Yes. Thank you.

Page 5107

1 Were you eventually arrested in Bosanski Samac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was the date, as far as you can recall, or the approximate

4 period of time?

5 A. It was in September. I think it was the 7th.

6 JUDGE SINGH: Just one question here. After leaving the radiator

7 system in front of Fadil Topcagic's house, do you know what happened to

8 that system?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.


11 Q. Now, you told the Chamber that you started working in Odzak around

12 the 9th and 10th of July and that you were arrested on -- in September,

13 early September. Throughout that period of time, did you work only in

14 Odzak, or rather, were you taken to Odzak every day, in that period of

15 time leading right up until your arrest?

16 A. It depended on the actual need. Sometimes they would leave me

17 there if I had to do something for somebody in Samac.

18 Q. Can you comment on whether or not you spent most of that time,

19 that is, between early July and early September, doing work assignments in

20 Odzak?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know of a place called the Borovo factory?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown Exhibit P9. I think I've

25 got the exhibit number right. It's the photographs. I believe it's P9.

Page 5108












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5109

1 And in particular, photograph 35.

2 THE REGISTRAR: I think it's Exhibit P14/A.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to the Chamber.

4 And might I just see the photograph, perhaps, before it's handed

5 to the witness?

6 Would Your Honours please bear with me for one moment.


8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 JUDGE MUMBA: So the witness is being shown P14/A photograph

10 number.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: 11, if Your Honours please. I'm sorry about the

12 delay. I didn't have the photograph number in my notes.

13 Q. All I need you to do, Witness, is just to have a look at that

14 photograph and tell us what it depicts.

15 A. This is the factory of the uppers, footwear uppers, in Odzak, the

16 Borovo factory in Odzak.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Mr. Usher. That's all I needed the

18 witness to do.

19 Q. Did you get engaged in any work at that factory?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did you do there?

22 A. I dismantled the machinery that was left there.

23 Q. Any idea who issued orders or instructions for that?

24 A. I don't know who issued the orders, but I do know who took me

25 there to work.

Page 5110

1 Q. Who took you there?

2 A. Stojan Blagojevic.

3 Q. How long did the job there take?

4 A. Four to five days we worked there.

5 Q. And was it just a question of dismantling machinery and getting it

6 out of the factory, taking it away?

7 A. We also loaded the machinery onto trucks.

8 Q. Where was it taken?

9 A. To Samac.

10 Q. How long did the job take?

11 A. Four to five days, until we cleaned it all up.

12 Q. And do you know what happened to the machinery that you took to

13 Samac from the Borovo factory?

14 A. They were unloaded at the Mladost factory, and then the rumour was

15 that they went -- that the machinery was taken to Zlatibor in Serbia.

16 Q. You say "the rumour." Are you referring to what you were informed

17 by other citizens, as to what had been the fate of the machinery?

18 A. Other citizens told me that. The people that worked with me, they

19 had some information about that.

20 Q. Now --

21 JUDGE SINGH: Are we going to have evidence of a rumour?

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I'm not presenting it as anything other than

23 that, if Your Honours please. That's precisely why I asked the question.

24 And to clarify that, I am fully aware that it is regarded -- it might be

25 regarded as hearsay in other jurisdictions, and I don't seek to present it

Page 5111

1 as anything more than what it says on its face, if Your Honour pleases.

2 Q. The -- when you did the job at the factory, had the factory been

3 damaged?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Had it been apparently damaged by war activity, by shells, bombs,

6 bullets, that sort of thing?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In the five days that you did work there, were you or was the

9 factory targeted or struck by shells or gunfire at all?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, you've described in detail all of the

12 sort of work that you conducted in Bosanski Samac and neighbouring

13 villages and in Odzak. In all of the time that you were engaged in this

14 sort of labour, these sort of projects, did anyone ever record, write

15 down in any way at all, the days that you worked or the hours that you

16 worked?

17 A. No.

18 Q. In all the time that you worked in Bosanski Samac and in Odzak,

19 did anyone ask you how many hours you had worked or how many days you had

20 worked?

21 A. No.

22 Q. In all the time that you worked in Bosanski Samac and in Odzak,

23 were you ever paid for any of the work that you did?

24 A. No.

25 Q. In all the time that you worked in Bosanski Samac or in Odzak, did

Page 5112

1 you ever see anyone being paid for the work they did or even hear of

2 anyone being paid for the work they did?

3 A. No.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown D22 E/2 ter, please.

5 Q. Witness, can you please just read out for the benefit of the

6 Chamber, the title at the top of the page so that we can refresh our

7 memories of what this document says, there not being any translation at

8 this stage.

9 A. "List of workers involved in the work brigade for the month of

10 April, May, June, July, and August 1992."

11 Q. Thank you. And you will see that the pages are obviously divided

12 into columns. At the top is an explanation of what the columns

13 represent. Start at the left and read across and tell us what the columns

14 are, please.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the document please be placed on the ELMO

16 for interpreters.

17 A. First we have the serial number, full name.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters are asking whether the document can

19 be placed on the ELMO.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I've not go problem with that as far as -- unless

21 it's under seal.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it?

23 THE REGISTRAR: That document is under seal, yes.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: So we have to go into closed session.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

Page 5113

1 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Di Fazio can you ask him when he's familiar with

2 that sort of document, whether he's ever seen one.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we go in closed session?

5 [Closed session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

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22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 5114













13 Pages 5114 to 5118 redacted closed session.













Page 5119

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

Page 5120

1 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness please be shown P38 ter.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: We are now in open session.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

10 May I ask the Court if this is a document under seal? Can it

11 be --


13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If we can please place it on the ELMO.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Can you place the document on the ELMO so

15 that we can see it? Good. Now, is that a -- is that document headed

16 "Workers in the work brigade, dead or injured"?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it apparently refers to the period of time between April and

19 August of 1992.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It also lists the number of -- the number of workers who were

22 killed. And you see them there: Mr. Idrizi, Mr. Nurkic, and Omeragic.

23 First of all, can you tell us where those persons were killed, what sort

24 of work they were doing when they were killed?

25 A. Redzep Idrizi got killed while digging trenches at Zasavica.

Page 5121

1 Dzevad Nurkic got killed at Pisari, also digging trenches. Fikret

2 Omeragic got killed outside his own home in Samac. Follows a list of the

3 wounded: Rizo Jusufovic, Fuad Bobic, Almir Kapetanovic, and Mirsad Tihic.

4 Q. Let's just concentrate on those killed, rather than those wounded,

5 first of all. It says there were three people killed in that period of

6 time, presumably while doing work. Do you know of any others, any other

7 men, or indeed women, who were killed while carrying out work obligations

8 or forced labour, whatever term you apply to it?

9 A. Yes. Missing from this list are Ibro Ibralic, who was a courier.

10 He got killed while delivering summons on his bicycle.

11 Q. You say he was killed while delivering summonses. What sort of

12 summonses are you talking about there?

13 A. Those were summonses for the work obligation.

14 Q. And can you tell us if he was killed during the period of time

15 that is purportedly covered -- that this document purportedly covers, that

16 is, between April and August of 1992? Was it during that period of time

17 that he was killed, or was it outside of that period of time?

18 A. He was killed within this period of time indicated in the

19 document.

20 Q. Thank you. Now look at the list of those who were wounded. Can

21 you tell us what sort of work they were engaged in at the time that they

22 were wounded?

23 A. All of them were engaged in digging trenches, and that's where

24 they got injured.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it the witness's assertion that they were injured

Page 5122

1 by crossfire?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I was just going to clarify that.

3 Q. You heard Her Honour's question. That's something we'd like to

4 know, if you can tell us. What sort of activity were they engaged in at

5 the time that they were injured?

6 A. They were digging trenches. And since we were in front of the

7 line while doing that, there was an exchange of fire in which they got

8 wounded.

9 Q. That applies to all four of them?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And all four wounded in different -- on different occasions, as

12 far as you're aware, or was that just the one occasion?

13 A. They were wounded on different occasions.

14 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: I wonder if Mr. Usher would be so kind as to

16 retrieve that and give the witness Exhibit P39 ter, P39 ter. And I don't

17 think this one is under seal either, so it can be placed on the ELMO.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's not under seal.


20 Q. This document is an accounting document of some sort relating to

21 the months between April and August of 1992. Look at the first two names

22 there, please, Sejdinovic and Celic. It asserts that they were clerks

23 or -- can you tell the Chamber if in that period of time, that is, April

24 to August, they in fact were working as clerks?

25 A. No.

Page 5123

1 Q. What were they in fact doing?

2 A. They were engaged in digging trenches, and they became clerks only

3 towards the end of the month of July.

4 Q. When in relation to the great escape that you've mentioned did

5 they become clerks? Before or after?

6 A. After that.

7 Q. Is the fact of their becoming a clerk and being taken off trench

8 work in any way related to that event, the escape?

9 A. Dzemal Kapetanovic escaped, nicknamed Beg, and Saba Hudinogic, who

10 had been clerks before they escaped.

11 Q. Now, I was interested in the two men whose names appear in the

12 document, numbers 1 and 2, Sejdinovic and Celic. You said they were

13 clerks -- you said they became clerks but only in -- towards the end of

14 July. What I wanted to know was whether the fact that they became clerks,

15 Sejdinovic and Celic, did that have anything to do with that large escape

16 of men swimming across the Sava River that you mentioned earlier in your

17 evidence. Were the two issues in any way connected?

18 A. They are very closely related, these events, because with the

19 escape of the two former clerks, two vacancies appeared. The two men,

20 Kapetanovic and Nogic, who had escaped, were educated men. I believe they

21 were engineers. And these two on the list, Celic and Sejdinovic filled

22 their positions.

23 Q. Thank you. Can you comment on the ethnic background of the people

24 whose names are listed in P39 ter? Just run your eyes down the list,

25 starting at 1, finishing at 9, and tell us what ethnic background those

Page 5124

1 people are.

2 A. Number 1 is a Muslim; number 2, a Muslim; number 3, a Muslim;

3 number 4, a Muslim; 5, Muslim; 6, Muslim; 7, Muslim; 8 and 9, also

4 Muslims. All of them are Muslims.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Mr. Usher. I've finished with that

6 document.

7 Q. Okay, Witness, I want to turn now to another issue, and that is

8 the fate of the mosque in Bosanski Samac. Let's try and get -- perhaps

9 I'll withdraw that, and I'll ask you this: Was the mosque destroyed in

10 Bosanski Samac?

11 A. Yes, it was.

12 Q. Just try and get a fix on when that occurred. If you know the

13 precise date, of course tell us. If you can give us an approximate period

14 of time, tell us.

15 A. I think it was between the 27th and the 28th of July, towards the

16 end of July, at any rate.

17 Q. Can you tell us if you were still based in Bosanski Samac? And by

18 that I mean was this before you started the regular work assignments in

19 Odzak?

20 A. At that time, I was working indeed in Odzak, and that event

21 occurred during the night between the 27th and the 28th. And I worked as

22 usual getting my work assignments outside the local community.

23 Q. Do you know a gentleman named -- or rather, gentlemen named Perica

24 Krstanovic and Marinko Stefanovic?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 5125

1 Q. When did -- did you ever have any dealings with them in Bosanski

2 Samac?

3 A. I knew them very well. Perica used to be the director of the

4 electrical company, and Marinko was an employee with the electrical

5 company in Samac.

6 Q. What background were they? What was their ethnic background?

7 A. They were Serbs.

8 Q. Did they hold any positions within any of the organs of the town,

9 for example, the 4th Detachment or the police force, anything like that?

10 A. I couldn't give you a precise answer because I don't know what

11 kind of position they held in town after the war broke out, but I know

12 that Perica was the director of the electrical company and Marinko was

13 employed with the same company. Perica wore a uniform.

14 Q. A military uniform?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did those men ever visit you at your home?

17 A. One evening, before the mosque was destroyed, Marinko called on

18 me. He arrived in his car, I believe it was a Zastava 128, and I saw that

19 Perica, the director was sitting inside. They wanted me to give them my

20 Hilti drill. Since I told them I didn't have it, they left.

21 Q. Firstly, I have two questions in respect of this drill. Firstly,

22 was it true that you didn't have such a drill? And secondly, is this

23 drill capable of getting through concrete and stone?

24 A. To your first question, I'll tell you: I had it, but I didn't

25 give them because I didn't think they would return it, and it is a very

Page 5126

1 expensive drill. To your second question: The answer is yes, it is used

2 normally for drilling through concrete and stone.

3 Q. Was this an unusual visit from these men, in the sense of they are

4 not men who normally came to your house or you normally had any dealings

5 with?

6 A. Yes, and I was surprised by their visit.

7 Q. During the night or the early morning, did you hear anything?

8 A. That morning, I heard a loud explosion, but I didn't know what had

9 happened.

10 Q. Did you ascertain what had happened?

11 A. I did, later, because at that time the curfew was still on, and we

12 were not allowed to leave our homes.

13 Q. I'll be asking you about the curfew later on, but at this stage

14 tell us if you eventually left the house and ascertained what had happened

15 in respect of that explosion.

16 A. When I left my house, I met -- I ran into Suhra Porogic who told

17 me that the mosque was destroyed. Since I was supposed to go

18 and report for work, I took a different road past the mosque to see it. I

19 saw that it was destroyed, and I continued walking towards the local

20 community.

21 Q. Now, do you know of a place in Bosanski Samac called the Posavka

22 department store?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you notice anything unusual about the Posavka department store

25 this morning that you were -- walked past the mosque?

Page 5127

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Tell us.

3 A. I saw two thin wires, one white, the other grey, going across the

4 asphalt to the back of the department store.

5 Q. Apparently leading from where to where?

6 A. From the department store to the mosque.

7 Q. What did the mosque look like at the time that you saw these two

8 wires?

9 A. It was destroyed.

10 Q. When you arrived at your assembly point, work assembly point, did

11 you discuss the fate of the mosque with anyone or did anyone discuss it

12 with you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Tell us who spoke to you, if anyone, and what exactly --

15 exactly they said to you on the issue of the mosque.

16 A. I talked to Kemal Mehinovic who told me that he had seen

17 Marinko Stefanovic unrolling the wire from the back of the department

18 store towards the mosque, and he saw another man, Perica, inside the

19 department store, which was the origin of the explosion apparently.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Judge Williams, please.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I apologise.

22 Mr. Di Fazio, I have a question for yourself. Destruction of

23 religious institutions. Now, this is contained in the Statute of this

24 Tribunal and Article 3(d), violations of the laws or customs of war, ie,

25 (d) seizure of, destruction, or wilful damage done to institutions

Page 5128

1 dedicated to religion, and so on and so forth.

2 Obviously this is based on well-known fact in international

3 criminal law that cultural property, religious property, is protected in

4 time of armed conflict, 1954 Hague Convention, and so on and so forth. So

5 my question is: We have no mention in the current indictment of damage to

6 religious institutions. So my question to you, Mr. Di Fazio, given that

7 we are contained here by the four corners of the present third amended

8 indictment: Are you seeking to bring destruction to the mosque and other

9 religious institutions within count 1, persecution, based on Article 5(h)

10 of the Statute of the Tribunal, and particularly page 5 of the indictment,

11 paragraph 14(e), which concerns wanton and extensive destruction,

12 plundering, and looting of the property of Bosnian Croats, Bosnian

13 Muslims, other non-Serb civilians, including dwellings, businesses,

14 personal property, and livestock? No mention is made of religious

15 institutions. Are you wanting - shall we say - a more liberal reading

16 of (e) to include religious institutions such as the mosque and the

17 Catholic church in Bosanski Samac?

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, if Your Honour pleases, as far as 14(e) is

19 concerned, it should be covered by that particular paragraph.

20 May I just have a moment to confer with my colleague on this, on

21 this issue?


23 [Prosecution counsel confer]

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honour's question, with the utmost respect is

25 entirely appropriate and I think highly pertinent and needs to be

Page 5129

1 answered. It does, however, take me by surprise at this point in time,

2 and I can address you on this issue. If I could do so at a later point,

3 it would, I think, be of benefit both to myself and to Your Honour to do

4 that.

5 I understand from my colleague, Mr. Weiner, that there is a recent

6 decision that might touch upon this issue, and I would like to have an

7 opportunity to read that. I understand it's Kupreskic.

8 So would Your Honour be satisfied if I dealt with this question

9 and addressed you upon it at a later stage and proceeded to take this

10 evidence at this time?

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, I would have one other question to

13 add to that.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: -- to the previous question, and then the Chamber

16 would give you time to consider what your response to the questions would

17 be. But the Chamber is of the view that that should be done before the

18 cross-examination of this witness to give the Defence the opportunity to

19 include it in their cross-examination if they so wish.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honour refers to my reply to you, or any

21 application to amend, or both? That should be done before, before any

22 cross-examination of this witness.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think the reply. And if the reply will

24 include your proposal to amend, then it better be, because it's through

25 the evidence of witnesses that we deal with all these matters, and it is

Page 5130

1 important that the Defence are notified in due time before they

2 cross-examine. And as Judge Williams said they can decide whether to take

3 up those matters with this witness or not to, depending on what the

4 defences of their clients are.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, very well. Well, in that event, might I use

6 the rest of the day to consider our position, confer with my colleagues,

7 and answer that inquiry tomorrow morning and give any indication on that

8 very issue tomorrow morning?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think so.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: And before Defence counsel have to stand up and

11 cross-examine.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And before you wind up with the witness,

13 because then it will become necessary whether or not that evidence should

14 be elicited or not.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. That will be attended to.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, just the second point if you could

17 add into your consideration of this question: Again referring to

18 paragraph 14(e), the one I read out from the indictment --

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: -- the meaning of "the property of Bosnian

21 Croats, Bosnian Muslims," do we read in private property there or do we

22 also read in - should we say - public property of religious institutions

23 not owned, therefore, by individual Bosnian Muslims or Croats living in

24 the municipality of Bosanski Samac?

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

Page 5131

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And then there is also the question of the word

2 "including" in that portion of the indictment, whether that can be read

3 more broadly and so on and so forth.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I understand the point. And I'll address the

5 Chamber on that, as I said, tomorrow, and before the close of this

6 witness's evidence, his examination-in-chief.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And perhaps we -- you can leave that part of

8 your examination-in-chief and move on to other matters, if there are still

9 other matters for your examination-in-chief, so that we can move on at

10 least for the time we have, and then adjourn, and then you can prepare

11 yourself before you go to this particular aspect.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, of course. So I take it that the Chamber

13 wishes me not at this stage not to continue with any evidence on the

14 destruction of any --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Religious.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: -- religious. Yes, very well. I can do that.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think we can include other destructions

18 which -- other matters concerning (e), perhaps to be on the safe side, and

19 then you move on with your examination-in-chief on other matters related

20 to other things.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand. This was a very specific topic that

22 I was going to deal with, institutions in Bosanski Samac, Odzak,

23 the mosque, and the Catholic church in Odzak, and also the Catholic

24 churches in some other villages. I'll skip that and move on to another

25 topic and only get back to that after we have conferred tomorrow and I've

Page 5132

1 made submissions on the issue.


3 I thought I saw Ms. Baen or somebody from the

4 dense standing up.

5 MS. BAEN: Actually, that was the issue I was going to address is

6 that he should not go into this topic on direct, and so we are in

7 agreement with the Court on that. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So you can move on with examination-in-chief

9 in other areas of the evidence of the witness.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. The next topic that I'm going to propose to

11 deal with, given the results of this discussion, are rapes that occurred

12 in Odzak. And I propose to do that on the basis of the ruling that you

13 made the other day in respect of the witness led by Mr. Weiner. It's

14 essentially the same sort of material covered by Mr. Weiner. And I take

15 the position that you having given the ruling, as far as that witness is

16 concerned, it applies to whatever this witness can say.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: However, names will be mentioned of victims, and I

19 wonder, therefore, if we should go into private session for that --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Right away.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: -- and avoid names, take the risk of names being

22 mentioned when I deal with this topic.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So we move into private session.

24 [Private session]

25 [redacted]

Page 5133













13 Pages 5133 to 5143 redacted private session.













Page 5144

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are in open session now.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Q. Okay. Now, you said that trucks would pass through checkpoints on

10 the way to and from Odzak. In the evenings, would the -- would the truck

11 pass through checkpoints on the way back?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. On such occasions, were there ever girls or young women on the

14 truck? And I mean of course occasions when you were there.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who manned the checkpoints?

17 A. The Serb troops.

18 Q. Did any of the girls or the young women ever get off at the

19 checkpoints?

20 A. The girls didn't get off. They were pulled off by Serbian

21 soldiers. Three or four girls would be picked out and pulled off the

22 truck, and we would continue on to Samac without them.

23 Q. When this happened, would there be -- would you still have the

24 guard with you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5145

1 Q. And presumably, a truck driver?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were they locals from Bosanski Samac, the guard and the truck

4 driver?

5 A. It would very often be a member of the police or the Serbian army,

6 and most often, it was Stojan Blagojevic who accompanied us.

7 Q. Now, where was Stojan from? Was he from Bosanski Samac?

8 A. He was from a village called Pisari, near Bosanski

9 Samac.

10 Q. So essentially he was a local living in the municipality of

11 Bosanski Samac; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, when these girls were taken off the truck, did he have an

14 opportunity to see this happening?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Ever hear him complain to anyone about what was happening to these

17 women? Ever hear him complain to any of the defendants or indeed anyone

18 else about what was happening to these women as they were taken off at the

19 checkpoints?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When would you next see the women after they were taken off the

22 truck at the checkpoint?

23 A. The next morning.

24 Q. Did -- what sort of condition would they be in when you saw them

25 the next morning?

Page 5146

1 A. Exhausted. They looked as if they were drunk from lack of sleep,

2 fatigue.

3 Q. Did the soldiers who put them back on the trucks ever say anything

4 that you overheard? And if you did overhear it, I want to hear exactly

5 what was said. Okay?

6 A. When the truck stopped, Stojan would get off, and they would get

7 in. We were sitting in the truck.

8 Q. So this guard would have an opportunity to see them being taken

9 off the truck and being put back on the truck the next day.

10 A. Right.

11 Q. All right. I want to ask you now about some questions about the

12 hotel in Odzak, the hotel in which Mr. Simo Zaric had his office, or

13 apparently had his office, and where you assembled in the mornings to be

14 given your tasks. Do you know a man named Novica Simic?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. Who is he?

17 A. I think he's a general of the Serbian army, the East Bosnia Corps,

18 something like that.

19 Q. Did you ever see him in Odzak?

20 A. Only once.

21 Q. Where was that?

22 A. Inside the hotel, on one of the floors.

23 Q. What were you doing inside the hotel on this occasion?

24 A. I think I was repairing taps in the bathroom.

25 Q. Tell the Chamber under what circumstances you saw Mr. Simic,

Page 5147

1 Mr. Novica Simic?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I was just about to say whenever we have a name

3 of somebody else other than the defendant, please use the full name.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

5 Q. Okay. My question is, Witness, when did you -- under what

6 circumstances did you see Mr. Novica Simic?

7 A. I saw him in one of the rooms. The door was slightly open, so

8 when I was passing by that room, I saw one of the girls from my town in

9 the room.

10 Q. What was her name? Just before you answer that, just before you

11 answer that, I think we are in open session. Are we not?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So you want private session?

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Just for --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: A few minutes.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: -- For a few minutes while we get this evidence out

16 and then we can resume.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Then we will go back, yes.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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13 Pages 5148 to 5155 redacted private session.













Page 5156

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

8 1.01 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

9 the 5th day of December, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.