1 Wednesday, 27 February 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Milan Simic not present]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number
9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav
10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Ms. Reidy, you're continuing with
13 Yes, Ms. Baen.
14 MS. BAEN: Just for purposes of the record, Your Honour, our
15 client has waived his appearance today and will watch the trial via
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
18 MS. BAEN: Also, yesterday afternoon, the Prosecutors asked if my
19 client would waive any issues regarding his identification by this
20 witness. I discussed it through an interpreter with my client, and we
21 have faxed over a written waiver where he says he's willing to waive that
22 so we don't delay the trial. I'm having that faxed back into the Registry
23 just so that it's in the record so that there's no problems.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you very much.
25 MS. BAEN: Thank you.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Ms. Reidy, you can proceed.
2 WITNESS: SNJEZANA DELIC [Resumed]
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Examined by Ms. Reidy: [Continued]
5 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Delic.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. Yesterday I began to ask you some questions about the conditions
8 for you living in Bosanski Samac, between the 22nd of April and the 4th of
9 September, 1992, and I'd like to pick up on that topic again this
10 afternoon. Could you please tell me, during that time after your husband
11 was arrested until the time you left Bosanski Samac, did you continue to
12 have electricity in your home all the time?
13 A. Not all the time. Because that part of town was cut off from
14 electrical supply because of shelling or whatever. At any rate, starting
15 with mid-June, we had no more power. What was particularly curious to me
16 was that non-Serbs did not have telephone communication already in the
17 month of May. Their telephone lines were down for whatever reason.
18 Q. So for clarification, the electricity from mid-June, was that cut
19 off for everyone, or did you notice that some people had electricity and
20 others had no electricity?
21 A. In my part of town, people had no electricity for the most part,
22 all those who lived there.
23 Q. Thank you. And the telephone lines, you said that non-Serbs did
24 not have telephone communication already in the month of May. Do I
25 understand you to say that at the beginning, in April, that you were able
1 to use your telephones, but that at some stage you lost the telephone
3 A. Precisely. In the beginning, the telephone communication
4 functioned. But at the later stage, we were cut off, while our Serbian,
5 Serb neighbours, still had telephone communication.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
7 MS. REIDY: Yes.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have an explanation how she got to know that
9 the Serbian neighbours had communication. And also on the electricity, at
10 the part of town where she used to live, was this a mixed neighbourhood?
11 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour. I'll pursue those two
12 clarifications right now.
13 Q. The first one perhaps is on the matter of the electricity. Was
14 the area where you used to live in town, was that a mixed neighbourhood,
15 and so was it that both Serb apartments and Muslim and Croat apartments
16 all suffered from the same extent to lack of electricity?
17 A. As far as electricity is concerned, I can't say that non-Serb
18 population was targeted. That part of town had a mixed population. All
19 ethnic groups were represented. And I can't say that I did not have
20 electricity because I was not a Serb. But with regard to telephone
21 communications, the case was clearer. For instance, my left-hand and my
22 right-hand neighbours, next-door neighbours, were Serb families, and I
23 know for sure that their telephones continued working.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you --
25 JUDGE SINGH: I'm sorry. Then you say "for sure." I mean, what
1 does that mean? Your left-hand and your right-hand neighbour, did you try
2 to call them yourself?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't call them. But we
4 shared gardens and open fences, so I could communicate with them. I could
5 talk to them. And they would tell me that they had called their family
6 and relatives in Samac and things like that.
7 MS. REIDY:
8 Q. Thank you. And you said that you got cut off. Are you speaking
9 specifically about your apartment, or do you know of other non-Serb
10 families who also lost the ability to use the telephones?
11 A. I know for certain that other citizens who continued living in the
12 town and were not Serbs did not have the possibility to communicate by
14 Q. And the reason you know this for certain is what?
15 A. I know that from conversations I had with those persons, and they
16 told me that they could not telephone anyone either inside the town or
17 outside of it.
18 Q. Thank you. You also mentioned yesterday that --
19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Ms. Reidy. I wonder whether you could
20 clarify with the witness whether once it was known, for example, that her
21 family's telephone was cut off, whether she communicated with any
22 administrative person in Bosanski Samac to see whether -- what the problem
23 was and whether the phone could be fixed.
24 MS. REIDY:
25 Q. Did you understand Your Honour's question?
1 A. I did not approach or address anyone because fear already reigned
2 to such an extent that it never occurred to me even to ask for an official
4 Q. Do you know whether any of your other non-Serb -- the non-Serb
5 people you'd spoken to who had also lost their telephone lines, do you
6 know if they had ever inquired why the telephone lines were no longer
7 working or if something could be done about it?
8 A. The people that I knew did not do any such thing.
9 JUDGE SINGH: Just two quick clarifications. How long were you
10 without electricity, and how long were you without the phone?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're asking for the exact date
12 when our telephone stopped working, I couldn't tell you. But I know it
13 was sometime in the middle of May. Starting with mid-May, I no longer had
14 telephone access. And electricity was cut off in the end of May.
15 JUDGE SINGH: [Previous translation continues] ...
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 MS. REIDY:
18 Q. Mrs. Delic, you also mentioned yesterday that a curfew was imposed
19 at the beginning of the takeover. Did that curfew continue throughout the
20 time you stayed in Bosanski Samac?
21 A. Throughout the time I stayed in Bosanski Samac, the curfew was
22 on. And it lasted from 9.00 p.m. to 6.00 a.m. In the summer season, it
23 was shifted to 10.00 p.m. and lasted until 6.00 a.m. Windows had to be
24 shaded and there was a ban on movement in that interval.
25 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, my colleague has just brought to my
1 attention an omission on the transcript which could become important.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
3 MS. REIDY: And it was the question posed by Your Honour Judge
4 Singh, which was, I believe, did you ever get back the electricity and the
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
7 MS. REIDY: And the witness said, "No." But the question is not
8 recorded. So maybe now the record could reflect that was Your Honour's
10 JUDGE SINGH: If it was restored, yes.
11 MS. REIDY: Thank you very much.
12 Q. Ms. Delic, that was just a problem with the record. This curfew,
13 did you know whether all citizens obeyed the curfew? Or was there a
14 problem with respect to Serbs and non-Serbs with respect to obeying the
16 A. Discrimination existed in that respect as well. My Serbian
17 neighbours could move around that as they pleased, and they paid no
18 attention to such rules or bans.
19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Ms. Reidy, I wonder whether you could clarify
20 whether this curfew was imposed on everybody: Serbs, Muslims, Croats, or
21 whether it was just imposed on non-Serbs. And therefore, if it was
22 imposed on everybody, that some chose to disobey it. I'd just like to get
23 a better sense of that.
24 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour.
25 Q. Could you -- Ms. Delic, could you clarify when the curfew was
1 announced, was it directed to the entire population, or was it
2 specifically directed at certain groups of the population?
3 A. In any case, non-Serbian population did not dare to violate the
4 curfew. I don't know whether the others were allowed to disregard it or
6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And just one supplementary question, Ms. Reidy.
7 I wonder whether you could clarify with the witness how the population of
8 Bosanski Samac knew that there was a curfew. How was it proclaimed:
9 posters, word of mouth, and so on and so forth?
10 MS. REIDY:
11 Q. Ms. Delic, could you tell us how the curfew was imposed. And
12 perhaps you could tell us the first time you heard about it, which I
13 believe you testified yesterday, and whether there was further information
14 about the curfew given to the population.
15 A. It was announced on the radio, the Serbian radio of Bosanski
16 Samac, which made such announcements and announced such decisions, and
17 this was one of them.
18 Q. And in the announcement -- the announcement was directed at the
19 population as a whole, or at certain groups of the population?
20 A. From the way this announcement was formulated, I understood it
21 only concerned non-Serbian population. I cannot remember right now
22 whether it was expressly said that Serbs could move around during the
23 curfew. But I remember that non-Serbs had an obligation to adhere to the
25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I apologise, Ms. Reidy. But just an extra
1 supplementary question. This was an announcement on the radio. When the
2 announcer on the radio made this announcement, was it stated who had
3 issued this proclamation? Was it the Crisis Staff? Was it some other
4 body? Was it in the name of an individual or individuals representing
5 that body? I think that would be important for us to know.
6 MS. REIDY: Certainly.
7 Q. Ms. Delic, could you please answer that. Thank you.
8 A. The Crisis Staff was behind both these announcements, the Crisis
9 Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac.
10 JUDGE SINGH: I'm sorry. Do forgive me. When you say, "The
11 Crisis Staff was behind these announcements," did the radio broadcast
12 mention the Crisis Staff to your hearing? Because you probably heard the
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I heard it myself.
15 JUDGE SINGH: And was the Crisis Staff mentioned in the radio
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was mentioned in the announcement
18 as well.
19 JUDGE SINGH: Very well.
20 Ms. Reidy, so that the witness is quicker, when you're talking
21 about various discriminatory measures, please make your question very
22 specific and try to get to identify the source, whether she's relating
23 from her observation, from documents, from the radio, television, so that
24 we all quickly -- I mean clear, quickly.
25 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour. I'll adopt that approach in
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the future. Thank you.
2 Q. Ms. Delic, could I also ask a clarification before we move on from
3 this? You did say that the Crisis Staff was behind both announcements.
4 Could you clarify when you're talking about both announcements which
5 announcements you mean, as that implies there was at least -- well, there
6 was two announcements.
7 A. I mean the announcement that was made on the radio, but also in
8 the form of posters put up in various public places around town. And one
9 of the provisions in such announcements said that it was prohibited for
10 two or more non-Serbs to gather in public or socialise, and this decision
11 was also signed by the Crisis Staff.
12 Q. So can I be clear. The announcement -- or you learned about the
13 curfew through a radio announcement which specifically said that the
14 Crisis Staff imposed this curfew; is that correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Did you ever see posters or notices, as you said, in public places
17 with the similar information just about the curfew, or was your source of
18 information about the curfew the radio, the Serbian radio?
19 A. I only found out from the radio.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So Ms. Reidy, the witness has said that these
22 posters were signed by the Crisis Staff. If she only heard this
23 information on the radio, how does she know the posters were signed by the
24 Crisis Staff?
25 And secondly, if signed by the Crisis Staff, who in the Crisis
1 Staff signed it?
2 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. I'm just hoping to clarify that.
3 Q. So you spoke of posters you saw in town. The posters you saw in
4 town, did they relate, then, to the curfew, or did they relate to other
5 measures which were imposed on you?
6 A. It seems I should clarify a bit more. I was talking about the
7 decision to impose the curfew, which was announced on the radio, and it
8 was said in the announcement that this was a decision of the Crisis Staff
9 of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac. Other decisions were
10 published in the form of posters which were put up in various public
11 places around town: the doors of shops and such places. At the bottom of
12 such posters, it also said that the decision was made by the Crisis Staff,
13 and the signature below was that of Blagoje Simic, the chairman.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, one of those posters you said you saw related to
15 a prohibition on two or more Serbs to gather in public places; is that
17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Ms. Reidy, I do have to refer you back
18 to page 9, your question, line 15, where you asked the question re: the
19 curfew, "Was your source of information about the curfew the radio, the
20 Serbian radio?" Answer from the witness: "I only found out from the ^^^
21 radio." Hence my question is: How does the witness know about the
22 posters and whatever is on it if she only knew about the radio and didn't
23 see the posters?
24 Your question to her was then on line 13, and you say "Now, one of
25 those posters you said you saw," but the witness says she only found out
1 from the radio. So this is rather confusing.
2 MS. REIDY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I have to say my
3 interpretation of the transcript was that it was clear that the witness
4 had said the information about the curfew was from the radio and then
5 she'd said she had seen other posters in town but they don't relate to the
6 curfew but to other decisions but -- it's now gone off my screen. I can
7 go over this evidence if -- I don't want there to be confusion on the
8 record, because that certainly my understanding of the witness's
10 JUDGE SINGH: Ms. Reidy, I think it says that other decisions were
11 in the form of posters. And then she went on to say that in the name of
12 the Crisis Staff and the name of Blagoje Simic appears. But she -- as I
13 said earlier to you, the source of the information, she doesn't say that
14 she saw that herself. It's important that if she sees something, she
15 tells us; she hears something of her own personal knowledge, she tells
16 us. If "X" said something, she says "X" said something. You follow? We
17 don't want gossip and rumours to come up in evidence here. Please try to
18 avoid that.
19 MS. REIDY: No. Your Honour, I'm trying to avoid that. I will, I
20 think maybe just for clarification for the record I'll -- I hope I'll not
21 going to get into repetition, I'll just go over these matters.
22 Q. Ms. Delic, could I ask you just to return again just to the
23 information concerning the imposition of the curfew. Did you hear that
24 through the radio, Radio Serbian Samac?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Did you hear that -- you heard that yourself. You didn't hear it
2 from someone. You heard the actual radio announcement yourself?
3 A. Correct. I heard it myself.
4 Q. And when you heard that announcement yourself, you heard it being
5 said on the announcement that the curfew was being imposed on the
6 authority or instruction of the Crisis Staff; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. At that time, with that announcement, did you hear any specific
9 name being mentioned from the Crisis Staff, or was it just generally the
10 authority of the Crisis Staff that was being invoked?
11 A. Just the Crisis Staff.
12 Q. Thank you. The information about the curfew, did you see it
13 repeated anywhere else, on a poster, a notice, a sign -- a letter brought
14 to your door, or was your sole source of information what you yourself
15 heard on the radio?
16 A. At this moment, as I said, I heard it on the radio. There were no
17 pamphlets or any other things. I just heard it on the radio.
18 Q. At any other stage, did you again see the same information from
19 another source on a poster or on a notice, just about the curfew, or was
20 your personal knowledge of the curfew based on the radio announcement?
21 A. Yes, that's true.
22 Q. Can you clarify that -- okay. I'm going to ask you, at any other
23 stage did you see that information on written form on a poster or a notice
24 -- just about the imposition of the curfew.
25 A. I can't say that I saw it in any other written form.
1 Q. So it remains that your personal knowledge of the curfew was based
2 on the radio announcement?
3 A. Yes, that's true.
4 Q. Now, you said you also learnt of an order that there wasn't to be
5 a gathering together of, I think you said, two or more non-Serbs. How did
6 you learn of that information?
7 A. I heard about that by reading about it on a notice or a poster
8 that was posted on several public places around the town.
9 Q. So you saw this instruction yourself, that there were to be -- not
10 to be a gathering of two or more non-Serbs.
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. And when you saw that poster, could you see who was giving that
13 order? Could you see a name or a signature or a stamp? And if you could,
14 could you, to the best of your memory, tell us what you saw on that stamp
15 -- you saw on the poster.
16 A. The Crisis Staff was in the place where the signature was supposed
17 to be. It was the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski
18 Samac. It was stamped. The stamp had the 4-S sign in the middle. And
19 around the edge of the stamp, it said: "Serbian Municipality of Bosanski
20 Samac." The poster was also signed by Dr. Blagoje Simic.
21 Q. Thank you. Could you please give an idea of the time when it was
22 that you first saw a poster like this.
23 A. The posters appeared a little later, perhaps only in the month of
24 June. I can't tell you the exact date when the poster first appeared.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you see other posters like the one you've just
1 spoken about, that had other information or instructions about what was
2 permitted and what wasn't permitted?
3 A. I don't remember any other information that was officially
5 Q. Thank you. This prohibition on the gathering of two or more
6 Serbs, can you remember exactly what it meant, what it said you could and
7 couldn't do, and what would happen if there was a gathering of two or more
9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes. I think for the sake of the record, we
10 should have it corrected. Your first statement, Ms. Reidy, was this
11 prohibition on the gathering of two or more Serbs, which you might want to
13 MS. REIDY: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I would, for the
14 record, like to correct my statement. It was the prohibition on the
15 gathering of two or more non-Serbs.
16 Q. Ms. Delic, if you could explain exactly the nature of that
17 prohibition, and if there was any penalty for violating it. Thank you.
18 A. No fines were mentioned, in case of any kind of violation, no
19 penalties. There were no instructions either on how to follow all of
20 these directives.
21 Q. So the posters simply said that there was to be no gathering of
22 two or more non-Serbs; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. Ms. Delic, did you ever receive an instruction that as a member of
25 the non-Serb community, that you should leave the doors of your apartment
2 A. I received instructions like that, yes. And they were given
3 verbally. This happened during the first few days, when certain military
4 officials also appeared whose duty it was to collect weapons from the
5 citizens and to hand them over. And on that occasion, they emphasised
6 that the doors have to remain unlocked and accessible for any kind of
7 controls or inspections.
8 Q. So these verbal instructions came from military personnel, to keep
9 your doors open?
10 A. That's correct. But right now I cannot name any persons. But in
11 any case, the person who came that morning was entrusted with making sure
12 that all the weapons were collected from the population, from the citizens
13 in that street, the non-Serbian population, and also to inform and
14 instruct these people about how they should behave in relation to access
15 to their apartments or houses.
16 Q. To your knowledge, were the Serb population instructed to leave
17 their apartment doors unlocked? For example, were your -- did your Serb
18 neighbours keep their apartment doors unlocked?
19 A. I don't know about that, and I didn't ask them. We didn't talk
20 about that.
21 Q. Did you keep your apartment door, as a rule, unlocked throughout
22 your stay in Bosanski Samac until September 1992?
23 A. Yes. They were unlocked constantly, and they stayed unlocked when
24 we left Samac.
25 Q. Why did you continue to keep your apartment door unlocked even
1 though you got the instructions in the first few days?
2 A. These occasional visits and inspections could take place at any
3 time. I was by myself in the house with the children, so I didn't want to
4 draw attention to myself by violating any of these instructions, so I
5 complied with them.
6 Q. Do you know whether any of your non-Serb neighbours also did as
7 you did and left their apartment doors unlocked?
8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Ms. Reidy, I think you already asked that
9 question. Line 14, page 15.
10 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I thought that was relating to the Serb
11 population. This one was whether she herself personally chose --
12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I stand to be corrected.
13 MS. REIDY: Sorry.
14 Q. This question isn't about your Serb neighbours but about other
15 non-Serb persons living in your neighbourhood. Do you know whether they
16 also left their doors locked or whether they chose to lock them? Thank
18 A. Yes, they also kept their doors unlocked.
19 Q. And you know this from personally seeing their doors unlocked or
20 from conversations with them?
21 A. From conversations with them and from the house where I was living
22 in. There was a family living on the ground floor, and I know for sure
23 that they constantly kept their doors unlocked.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 JUDGE SINGH: Is my understanding right, then, that when you went
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to sleep at night with your children, your door remained unlocked or open?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
3 MS. REIDY:
4 Q. Ms. Delic, just as a follow-up to that, did you keep your door
5 unlocked at night because you believed that these inspections or checks
6 you talked about could happen at any time of the day or night?
7 A. That's right. It was something you could expect. Until that
8 moment, I never expected any such visits. But from that moment on, it was
9 reality, and I kept my doors unlocked in case of any inspection.
10 Q. Do you know or were you told of any visits which did occur, for
11 example, in the evening or at nights where people would come and inspect
12 or search or check apartments?
13 A. I heard about it, and I know about them. But at this moment, I
14 can't really say specifically who it was and what happened to them.
15 Q. But you had sufficient information at that time to want to keep
16 your door unlocked; is that correct?
17 A. In any case, yes.
18 Q. Mrs. Delic, you've told us that your husband was arrested on the
19 22nd of April. Were any attempts made to arrest you before you left
20 Bosanski Samac?
21 A. There were such attempts. For example, for a period, my husband
22 was in Bosanski Samac from the 22nd of April until the 29th of April.
23 Then he was moved to Brcko, then to Bijeljina. And then on the 13th of
24 May, he was returned to Samac. I remember that date because at that time,
25 during those days, there was a raid that was carried out in order to
1 gather all the Croat women in town, to round up all the Croat women in
2 town. This raid began on the so-called market, on the square where
3 vegetables and fruit were sold and where, in the morning, there would
4 always be a large number of women. One of my neighbours, a Muslim woman,
5 and my -- and my sister-in-law were running from the direction of the
6 market, and they came to my house and told me that I should leave the
7 house as soon as possible because they were going to find me, they would
8 find me. Of course at that moment, I couldn't have known that they were
9 looking specifically for me. But I did take that seriously, and I went to
10 a different apartment with my children in order to be in a more secure
12 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you some more questions about this
13 incident. You say it took place on the 13th of May. You were at home at
14 the time; is that correct?
15 A. I was at home. I'm not sure whether it was exactly the 13th of
16 May or the 12th of May. I really couldn't confirm it right now. But in
17 any case, it was during those two or three days in the middle of May that
18 this was happening.
19 Later, I would find out that as a Croat woman, I was also on that
21 Q. Thank you. I'll come to that in a minute. But just for the time
22 being, I'd like us to make sure this incident at the market place is clear
23 for the record. You were at home, and I understand that your neighbour
24 and your sister-in-law came to your house, having left the marketplace; is
25 that correct?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. And they told you what had happened to them in the marketplace
3 just moments before they ran to your house; is that correct?
4 A. They told me what was going on at the market. I must note that
5 both of these women were of Muslim ethnicity, so they were not the ones
6 who were being sought in that raid. So they were able to come to me in a
7 calm manner and help me and tell me that I should leave my house in order
8 to hide.
9 Q. Thank you. And what -- you said it was because they were Muslim.
10 What exactly did they tell you? They told you that Croat women were being
11 detained? And if so, by whom and in what manner? Was there some trucks
12 there? Were there military people? Were there police? How much detail
13 did they give you about the manner of the arrests that they had witnessed
14 at the marketplace?
15 A. They told me that there was a truck covered with tarpaulin on the
16 street marked next to the market, and they were simply taking away these
17 women. They recognised these Croat women who were their neighbours and
18 that they were taking them away in this truck.
19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Ms. Reidy, you might be going to do this, but
20 just in case, could you get a clarification from the witness why was it
21 Croat women and not Muslim women?
22 MS. REIDY: I will.
23 Q. Ms. Delic, we can deal with that question first. Were you told
24 why there was -- why it was Croat women and not Muslim women?
25 A. I still don't understand why it was just Croat women. Was it in
1 order to meet some quotas or something like that, number of persons. But
2 I don't know why.
3 Q. Sorry, when you say "to meet some quotas," what did you have in
4 mind, that there was a quota of Croats that should be detained, or what
5 did you mean when you used the term "quota"?
6 A. That's precisely what I'm speaking about. There had already been
7 situations where Croat men were taken away to camps, to isolation camps,
8 in order to be exchanged, so that perhaps the women at that point in time
9 were also being rounded up because of the same reasons. Later it would
10 turn out that a large number of non-Serb population would be taken from
11 their homes and then later exchanged or expelled from the town.
12 Q. Ms. Delic, you said that there had already been situations where
13 Croat men were taken away to camps, to isolation camps, in order to be
14 exchanged. Do you have personal knowledge of Croat men being detained and
15 being kept in isolation somewhere?
16 A. I know that in the gym of the secondary school, there was a large
17 number of Croats, a large group of Croats, who were in that camp. And it
18 was called an isolation camp. And that it was their fate to be expelled
19 in a number of exchanges. Let me tell you how I know this. I want to
20 emphasise that I was called as a former teacher of that school to tell the
21 new management of that school and my colleagues who were still active at
22 that time, and also that I should hand them over the documents that I had
23 from my students, their birth certificates, their old grade certificates,
24 and other documents like that. In order to enter the school building, I
25 had to pass through the schoolyard, then I went into the school through
1 the back entrance through the yard, and then in the hall -- I looked down
2 the corridor which was leading to the gym -- so through that corridor, you
3 could access a certain number of classrooms. And then it went --
4 continued on to the gym. So at the entrance to that corridor, there was a
5 soldier standing, and he had weapons.
6 Q. Mrs. Delic, this -- I'd just like to clarify this incident. You
7 personally received an instruction to go to the school, to help resolve a
8 matter with the new management of the school; is that correct?
9 A. At that time, the school year was about to end, so I found only my
10 Serb colleagues in the staffroom. The new person in town was a well-known
11 teacher, Zarko Milanovic, and there were also some other colleagues there
12 of Serb ethnicity. And they told me that they had to write the graduate
13 certificates for that year. And they asked me in case I still had some
14 documents like that, that I needed to hand them over.
15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Ms. Reidy, could you clarify, then, because I --
16 I don't think we've heard this before. From what the witness is saying,
17 the secondary school was still continuing to operate as a school, although
18 in the gym there were guards and allegedly the persons who were being
19 detained, mostly of Croat or Muslim ethnicity. But the school was still
20 operating as a school? There was still the faculty common room and
21 teachers and management and graduation certificates. Could you clarify
22 that, please.
23 MS. REIDY: Absolutely.
24 Q. Ms. Delic, could you explain? Was there -- you went to the
25 school by -- let me just take this in -- how did you know that you should
1 go to the school? How were you informed to attend?
2 A. A student of mine. She was already in her final class. They sent
3 her to inform me that I should come to the school and to bring with me
4 documents, if I happened to have any at home, the documents that I still
5 had with me from my former students, and also to take out from the locker
6 in my school and hand over those documents as well. So after that visit,
7 I went to school, and I saw what I just explained that I saw. However,
8 there were no pupils, no students in the school. It was just the
9 administrative part, where in the staffroom, which happened to be on the
10 first floor of the school, there were several of my colleagues. They were
11 writing graduation certificates. And in that way, they were finishing the
12 paperwork at the end of the school year.
13 Q. So --
14 JUDGE MUMBA: What month was that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the end of May. Because the
16 graduate students already were supposed to finish their school year, so in
17 any kind of emergency circumstances, the school year could be ended in
18 this way.
19 MS. REIDY:
20 Q. So when you went to the school, you saw people only carrying out
21 administrative functions but no classes or normal school life going on; is
22 that correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And the persons carrying out the administrative functions, those
25 you knew, were they all of Serb ethnicity, or were there a mix of
1 ethnicities working at the school?
2 A. Those were Serbs only. And even the students who helped out were
3 only Serbs.
4 Q. You also testified that when you went up there, you saw a soldier
5 guarding the entrance to the secondary school gym; is that correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And did you ask him who was being held in the secondary school gym
8 or if people were being held in the secondary school gym?
9 A. As far as the soldier is concerned, I didn't ask him anything.
10 But upstairs in the staffroom, I ran across a colleague of Serbian
11 ethnicity who taught literature and who was married to a Croat. She
12 herself was a Serb. And at that moment, I found it very unusual -- I
13 found it very unusual to hear from her that she was going to take a
14 mattress down for her husband to use in that isolation room, in
15 confinement. But that's what she said.
16 Q. So she told you that her husband, who was a Croat, was being
17 detained in isolation in the secondary school gym; is that correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. This event you've testified took place at the end of May, and you
20 testified that the event in the marketplace, the attempted arrest of Croat
21 woman took place in the end of May. So by mid-May, when this attempted
22 arrest in the marketplace went on, did you then also have some information
23 that the Croat men had been detained?
24 A. Certainly. Croats were being detained.
25 Q. And that was information you heard how, through conversations that
1 people were having, or did you witness anything?
2 A. Perhaps I should mention one example which comes to mind. My
3 brother, also a Croat, was being targeted. And at that moment, he was not
4 in Samac because he tried to stay away, knowing that he was on one of
5 those lists as a Croat. So they came looking for him in my apartment, and
6 they said, "Where is that Ustasha? Is he hiding anywhere here?"
7 Q. So you had a visit from the police or military persons looking for
8 your brother because he was a Croat; is that correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Was it police or military who came looking for him? Can you
12 A. The police.
13 Q. Thank you. You say he was being targeted. By "targeted," do you
14 mean people were looking for him?
15 A. Yes, they were looking for him by name and surname.
16 Q. Thank you. And you say that you know he was on -- or he knew he
17 was on one of those lists. Are these lists that you saw or that he saw or
18 people had heard about lists being drawn up? Could you explain what those
19 lists were and if you have any personal knowledge of those lists.
20 A. I cannot confirm that, but I know that this one policeman who came
21 was looking for him specifically and mentioned him by name, although he
22 didn't even know at the time whether my brother was in town or not.
23 Q. Did you yourself ever see any list with your name or your
24 brother's name on it?
25 A. Not with my own eyes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Did someone else see a list and tell you that your name was on it?
2 A. As for a list, including my name, I know for certain that it
3 existed. But the raid which was carried out to round up the people on
4 that list happened a bit later, sometime in mid-September.
5 JUDGE SINGH: Ms. Reidy, I think that question was unnecessary,
6 because she said earlier that she wouldn't have known if they were looking
7 for her.
8 MS. REIDY: Sorry, Your Honour. That's fine then. Thank you.
9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Have you said that, Ms. Reidy, though, being that
10 the question was asked and the answer does say -- the witness says,
11 concerning the list, page 245, lines 1, and 2, "As for a list, including
12 my name, I know for certain that it existed." So can we find out how the
13 witness, even if she didn't see the list, how she knew for certain that
14 it existed.
15 MS. REIDY: Yes.
16 Q. Ms. Delic, you've testified that you did know a list existed. And
17 I understand from your testimony that the list --
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. -- that list was connected later to a raid in September. But for
20 now, could you please tell the Court how you know that this list existed.
21 A. I'm certain that such a list existed because one of the policemen
22 who were in charge informed me that I was on the list, although I didn't
23 see it with my own eyes. But I know from his words that I was on the
25 Q. So do I understand you correctly that at some stage in September,
1 a police officer told you that you were on the list which he was looking
2 for people on, he was searching for people on that list?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Thank you. Could I ask you to return now to this first incident
5 in the marketplace. I believe you testified that what your sister and
6 your -- your sister-in-law and your Muslim neighbour told you was that
7 there were people in the marketplace taking women that they identified as
8 Croats into trucks. Did they tell you whether this was, again, by the
9 military, or was it by police officers? Did they know, or did they tell
10 you that information?
11 A. They told me that the men beside the truck were police officers.
12 Q. And they told you that they were picking up these Croat women and
13 putting them onto the trucks; is that correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Did you learn where the women on the trucks were taken to?
16 A. That group of women were taken in the direction of the Crkvina,
17 where they were housed.
18 Q. And how do you know that the women were housed in Crkvina?
19 A. Fourteen days later, some of those women -- in fact, at least one
20 of these women whom I knew told me that she had been released to go home,
21 together with her daughter. Nobody explained to her why she was being
22 released or why she had been taken away in the first place, but in any
23 case, she was allowed to go home together with her daughter.
24 Q. So you personally spoke with one of the women who had been
25 detained in the marketplace and taken to Crkvina; is that correct?
1 A. Correct. The woman is Marija Adriani.
2 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that she said she had been released to
3 go home together with her daughter. Do you know how old her daughter was,
4 and is it a correct understanding that her daughter was detained with her
5 in Crkvina?
6 A. The daughter was taken away together with her because they found
7 them together in their home, and the daughter was 17 years old.
8 Q. So this lady, Mrs. Adriani, she was taken from her house but not
9 from the marketplace that day; is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Did she say that other women kept with her in Crkvina had been
12 arrested in the marketplace?
13 A. There were such cases in that group. And among those women, were
14 also some who lived in the surrounding villages.
15 Q. Did she say roughly how many women were detained in Crkvina?
16 A. I don't really know. She seems to have said that they were
17 divided into several rooms. But I don't know exactly how many there were.
18 Q. Do you know which building they were detained in Crkvina?
19 A. No, I can't say I do.
20 Q. Thank you. Did she mention --
21 JUDGE SINGH: Sorry. Perhaps you can tell us how many women did
22 she see at the secondary school going away in the truck.
23 MS. REIDY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Do you mean away from the
25 JUDGE SINGH: No, no. She went to school. Remember? And then
1 she saw this truck. There were women going into the truck. How many did
2 she see?
3 MS. REIDY:
4 Q. Mrs. Delic, did you see women getting into a truck when you were
5 at the secondary school?
6 A. I think there must be a mistake here somewhere, because we're
7 talking about two different events. First, I discussed the isolation of
8 Croats in the building of the secondary school, and then we continued to
9 discuss the raid which happened later. But these two events are not
11 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you. I just wanted to know, coming back to
12 the earlier point, if you saw how many women were taken into the trucks.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Not exactly.
14 MS. REIDY:
15 Q. Do you know -- were you told how many trucks there were in the
16 marketplace? Was there one truck, or was there more than one truck?
17 A. There was one truck at that moment, on the marketplace. Whether
18 there were any other trucks rounding up people from their homes or other
19 places -- but on the marketplace, there was only one truck.
20 Q. And this is the information that your Muslim neighbour and your
21 sister-in-law came to tell you by way of warning not to go to the
22 marketplace; is that correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Thank you. Can I ask, in the place where the person you spoke to
25 was detained in Crkvina, did she mention whether or not there were any
1 children detained along with the women, or whether those women who were
2 detained had to abandon their children at home?
3 A. That woman was together with her daughter at the time, and those
4 who had children with them at the moment, were taken away together with
5 their children. So there were children in that group, too.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, you say that the woman you spoke to -- I believe
7 your testimony was that she was released after about 14 days. Do you know
8 if everybody was released after 14 days or she personally only spent 14
9 days detained in Crkvina?
10 A. Rather a large number of women was released after a while, and I
11 know another lady, an elderly lady, who was allowed to return to her
13 Q. Thank you. When you say "an elderly lady," can you give us an
14 estimation of how old elderly is? Was she over 65, or ...?
15 A. I didn't really say she was elderly. It must be a
17 Q. Okay. And just so -- the other lady who was allowed to return to
18 her apartment, had she been detained by herself, or had she been detained
19 with her children, or indeed did this other lady have any children?
20 A. She was alone.
21 Q. Thank you. Can I ask now about the situation of forced labour or
22 any work obligations that you were asked to --
23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Ms. Reidy, before going on to that, we've heard
24 that these women of Croatian ethnicity and those with children, the
25 children also, were detained in Crkvina. Does the witness have any
1 knowledge from these conversations with the people she knew who returned
2 what the conditions were like in which they were detained and so on?
3 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Ms. Delic, I think you've understood what Her Honour Judge
5 Williams has said. So if you have any knowledge about the conditions of
6 the detention and who was in charge of the women while they were being
7 detained, could you please tell the Court.
8 A. The conditions were not good. The rooms where they were placed
9 had bare floors. And I know they had to hand over any gold jewellery they
10 had, any valuables. But I have no other information about that.
11 Q. You say that they had bare floors. Do you know if they were given
12 mattresses to sleep on, or did they have to sleep on those bare floors?
13 A. No. They didn't get anything.
14 Q. Were you given any information about if they were given food and
15 water during their detention time?
16 A. I don't know anything about that.
17 Q. Were you given any information about the guards, whether they were
18 police or military personnel, whether they were local people or people
19 that they didn't recognise?
20 A. I don't know that either.
21 Q. I began to ask you about forced labour. Did you yourself have to
22 perform any forced labour?
23 A. I did not do forced labour.
24 Q. Were you given any reason why you didn't do forced labour?
25 A. No particular explanation was given, but I do know that the first
1 group of women who had to go to work included women who had no small
2 children and who were relatively free of obligations. They either had
3 grown-up children who lived alone, or they were elderly and lived alone
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
6 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honours. As we stated earlier, I
7 think it's not permissible to ask any witness here about the notions and
8 categories which are practically based on the legal -- legal theory and
9 doctrine, which means in particular situation, I think the Prosecutor
10 should refrain to ask this and all other witnesses with these kind of
11 formulations. Maybe the proper way would be -- whether it's a work
12 obligation or something, but forced labour, deportation, prosecution, and
13 all that kind of stuff are, I think, directly -- directly suggestive to
14 witnesses. And finally, they don't know the difference between the
15 various form, for example, in this particular case, of work. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. I'm sure Ms. Reidy -- I must
17 apologise to interpreters. I always forget to wait for the interpretation
18 to be completed.
19 You understand what Mr. Pantelic is trying to say about these
20 terms which we are using, "forced labour."
21 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. I take that point aboard. However,
22 I would also rather not use "work obligation," because obviously that
23 again is debated. That's what the Defence claim. So I'll try to use a
24 neutral term.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Neutral language: "Did anybody ask you to
1 work anywhere?" She has already said she was a teacher. Come 17th, she
2 couldn't go. And from the evidence so far, she hasn't gone back to
3 teaching. So you can ask along those neutral lines.
4 MS. REIDY:
5 Q. Mrs. Delic, as Her Honour Judge Mumba has pointed out, you stopped
6 working as a teacher. Did anyone come to your house and require you to do
7 any other -- either continue as a teacher or to perform any other form of
8 work whilst -- after the 17th of April?
9 A. No. Not all the way up to the 27th of June that same year. Until
10 that date, nobody called me up or informed me about anything of the kind.
11 Q. Prior to the 27th of June, did any of your non-Serb neighbours or
12 relatives have to go perform labour which they had been requested to do or
13 been instructed to do?
14 A. I do know that others went out to perform that sort of labour.
15 And I know about women who used to work as saleswomen or clerks in various
16 offices. But during those days, they were picked up early in the morning,
17 loaded onto trucks, and taken out to fields, where they had to do
19 Q. Mrs. Delic, when you say "they were picked up early in the
20 morning," are you referring to -- who do you mean by "they" exactly?
21 Which? Serbs? Non-Serbs? Women? Men? A whole mixture? Thank you.
22 A. In this case, I was talking about non-Serb women who were called
23 up to perform work obligation of this kind, and they were told at what
24 time to show up at a certain assembly point, from which they were
25 transported by truck to the place where they were supposed to carry out
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 this work obligation.
2 Q. And did you see people -- see these non-Serb women being picked up
3 by the truck, or did someone tell you about the truck picking up these
4 non-Serb women?
5 A. One time I saw such a group of women myself, and I recognised
6 [redacted] among the women who were already on the
7 truck waiting to depart.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned also that you knew about women who
9 used to work as saleswomen or clerks. But then in those days, they used
10 to be taken out to the fields. Do I understand you to mean that there was
11 two different types as work, one as salespeople and clerks and one in the
12 fields, or that in the beginning, people worked in the fields and later
13 they worked as clerks? Could you clarify what you mean when you talk
14 about those two different types of labour.
15 A. I must emphasise that in that period, when those new Serb
16 authorities were coming into being, the women and children from Serb
17 families were not in town at all, were not in their homes. They had been
18 moved for their own safety. The new authorities tried to organise life in
19 town and to bring it back to normal, to organise the work of shop and the
20 exchange of currency. And when I mentioned one of -- some of those women
21 who were taken away to do labour, Suada Hadzialiagic and others -- the new
22 authorities, after a while, managed to normalise life and Serb women and
23 children returned. But the people I mentioned before were out of jobs
24 now, and the women who I mentioned before who worked in those shops
25 earlier were replaced now by Serbs.
1 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, I think I could pick up this subject at
2 quarter past, since it's now time for the break.
3 JUDGE SINGH: Just before we adjourn, perhaps you can just tell us
4 what the age of your two children was in 1992.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My son was born in 1974. He was
6 then aged seven. And my daughter was born in 1981, and she was then aged
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The son was born in
9 1984, '84.
10 JUDGE SINGH: And do you think that that could possibly be one
11 reason why you were not detained, you were just left to look after your
12 children at home?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about the
14 reason why I was not arrested. But as far as the work obligation is
15 concerned, I believe that is the reason why I was spared. Why I was not
16 included in the group of women who were obliged to go out to work.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall take a break until 16.15 hours.
18 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy. You are continuing.
21 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And before you do, Ms. Reidy, I wonder whether
23 you could seek from the witness whether she has any knowledge concerning
24 her visit to the secondary school when the management and teachers were in
25 the teacher's common room and they were doing things, including issuing
1 graduation certificates. Does she have any knowledge as to whether those
2 graduation certificates were being issued to graduating pupils of all
3 ethnic backgrounds?
4 MS. REIDY:
5 Q. Welcome back, Mrs. Delic. I think you've heard the question that
6 Judge Williams is interested in. If you have the sort of knowledge that
7 she's interested in, could you please advise the Bench?
8 A. I wasn't informed about who was issued with the graduation
9 certificates and who later received these graduation certificates. I
10 didn't take part in these talks. Nobody asked me anything about it or
11 informed me about it.
12 Q. Were your -- did you know any non-Serb students who had been
13 attending the school -- attending the school up until the 17th of April
14 who received a graduation or a -- a graduation certificate?
15 A. I don't know. I didn't have any more contact with the students.
16 Q. Prior to 17th of April, 1992, would you usually have partaken in
17 the whole process of the administration of graduation certificates?
18 A. Of course. After each quarter, we would issue certificates about
19 the term success of each student. At that time, on the 16th of April, we
20 were supposed to issue these term -- end-of-term results. So in that way,
21 we would verify that 75 per cent of the curriculum had been carried out.
22 The meetings were already held, so we only needed to write the end-of-term
23 certificates, based on those meetings. Up to that point, everything had
24 been all right.
25 Q. On this point, could I ask you, were you ever formally told that
1 you were no longer required to continue your work as a teacher at the
3 A. I didn't receive any official information about whether I was
4 still employed or not. However, on that occasion, I wanted to pick up my
5 work papers because I wanted to, in a way, provide information that I was
6 no longer informed -- that I was no longer employed. But in a way, I was
7 told that I really shouldn't do anything like that. I didn't receive any
8 kind of official notification, so that there is no paper trail indicating
9 that I had ever worked at that school.
10 Q. When you speak of that occasion, do you mean your visit to the
11 secondary school at the end of May?
12 A. Yes, that's right. I wanted to use that visit to put that
13 question, and this is what I did. But I didn't manage to get an answer,
14 and I didn't manage to get my employment card which had the record of my
15 prior employment at that school.
16 Q. So do I take it you wanted to be told officially if you had been
17 fired but show that you -- what happened, and up to that date you had
18 worked in the school? That's the sort of information about your status
19 you were looking for; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. You testified yesterday that because you were working, you had
22 your own bank account. Did your salary continue to reach your bank
23 account after the 17th of April?
24 A. I didn't go to that bank any more, so I don't know if my salary
25 continued to be deposited. But I didn't receive any notification later
1 about the amount that was on my checking account, or if there was anything
2 on my checking account.
3 Q. And can I confirm, you said you didn't go to that bank any more,
4 but you did try to go to the bank once after the 17th of April, did you?
5 A. That's correct. That's what I said yesterday, that at one time I
6 tried to go to the bank and that I got an answer that without a decision
7 by the Crisis Staff, I could not get a hold of money from that account.
8 And this was after the 22nd of April. I don't remember if it was perhaps
9 the beginning of May, but it was definitely after my husband had been
11 Q. Thank you. And also for the record, was it the normal practice
12 that you would receive notification that your salary had been put into
13 your account?
14 A. The school took care of these administrative questions, so that --
15 the institution where I worked. So I didn't receive anything informing me
16 about my salary, not -- up until the 16th of April. And then after that,
17 I didn't go there any more.
18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Ms. Reidy, I wonder whether you can seek from the
19 witness any information as to whether since the end of the armed conflict
20 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, whether she has tried to get the balance out of her
21 account in that bank.
22 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
23 Q. Mrs. Delic, I think Her Honour's question is quite clear. Have
24 you tried to access the account that you had in Bosanski Samac since you
25 left and particularly since the end of the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 A. After the end of the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina -- and I was
2 absent the entire time, absent from Bosnia and Herzegovina -- I didn't
3 have any contact with Bosanski Samac at all. I wasn't able to go to
4 Bosanski Samac at all.
5 Q. So since you left Bosanski Samac in September 1992, you haven't
6 been back to Bosanski Samac; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's true.
8 Q. And you have known -- sorry?
9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Oh, I was just wondering whether you had tried by
10 way of a telephone call to the bank or whether by way of writing a letter
11 to the bank from wherever you were living, to again see what the balance
12 was and to close the account and get that balance remitted to you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't do that. I didn't even
15 MS. REIDY:
16 Q. Mrs. Delic, before the break, you were describing to us how you
17 had -- at least on one occasion yourself, seen women who were going out to
18 do labour tasks, being put onto -- being picked up by a truck. And I
19 understood you to say that the women who were being put on the trucks were
20 women who were, prior to the war, had worked maybe as clerks or worked in
21 shops and that, and then in that period after the takeover, that they
22 would be made to go to the fields and do labour. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. Now, you did also mention in your evidence that at that period
25 that many of the Serb women and children had been moved out of the area
1 for their own safety. And I'd just like to ask you some questions on that
2 evidence. When you say "at that period," could you indicate which period
3 you're talking about, which month you mean, that this occurred.
4 A. This occurred already in the month of March 1992, perhaps even at
5 the end of February, March, April, until the middle of May or the end of
6 May, when the new authorities realised that life can be normalised in
7 these new conditions.
8 Q. And when you said that Serb families or women and children had
9 been moved out for their own safety, do you mean that they had been forced
10 to move out or there had -- you had witnessed families moving out of the
12 A. They were leaving, according to their own free will, their own
13 personal wish, using vehicles which they had. And they went with children
14 and came back, perhaps, when they wanted -- once they felt the situation
15 was improved or better. In any case, there was no ban or movement or any
16 kind of order that they had to leave or come back.
17 Q. Thank you. And can I clarify? Although you've said that some of
18 the Serb women and children had left the town in April -- or on the 17th
19 of April, 1992, and immediately after that, you did still have Serb
20 neighbours who were living in and around your apartment or house; is that
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Thank you. So you then -- I believe you testified that many of
24 the non-Serb women, some of them who you'd seen get onto the truck, had
25 previously worked in shops or as clerks. And I understood you to say that
1 afterwards, that the positions they had held were filled by people of Serb
2 ethnicity. Is that correct?
3 A. It's correct that in those shops, the non-Serb saleswomen --
4 besides the non-Serb saleswomen, there were also Serb saleswomen who
5 continued to carry out their duties while these other non-Serb women were
6 -- lost their jobs.
7 Q. So do I understand that earlier when you spoke about the
8 authorities harmonising or normalising conditions of life, you meant
9 insofar as the -- those of Serb ethnicity could continue working in their
10 jobs and continue their lives?
11 A. That's right.
12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Ms. Reidy, do you think you could ask the witness
13 to answer your question, page 40, lines 3 and 4, as to the position -- to
14 use your words, "the positions they had held, were they filled by people
15 of Serb ethnicity," please.
16 MS. REIDY:
17 Q. Yes, Mrs. Delic, do you have any knowledge of situations where
18 there were jobs previously held by a non-Serb that after the 17th of
19 April, they were replaced by someone of Serb ethnicity?
20 A. Let me say it more clearly. For example, if we're talking about a
21 supermarket which at that point employed only non-Serbs, because all the
22 others were absent. Once they came back, the women or the saleswomen who
23 were not Serbs lost their jobs, and these others could continue working in
24 their posts. They were used in a way at that time, because there was
25 nobody there to do this work.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Could you explain for us -- when you say "at that time" -- "they
2 were used at that time, because there was nobody to do this work," what
3 time period do you mean?
4 A. I am thinking of the period from the end of April until May.
5 Middle, yes.
6 Q. Sorry. So you mean that the Serb women were used to do the work
7 because there was no non-Serb -- no non-Serb people there to do the work;
8 is that correct?
9 A. They were carrying out that job because they had come back from
10 their exile, and they continued to work in their former jobs, while the
11 others, the non-Serb workers -- women, were prevented from continuing to
12 carry out their jobs. They lost their jobs.
13 Q. Thank you. And you witnessed some of those Serb women who had
14 lost their jobs being put onto trucks and taken to do farm labour; is that
15 correct? Some of those non-Serb women who had lost their jobs being put
16 onto trucks and taken to do farm labour; is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Thank you. Do you have any knowledge about whether or not the
19 women put on the trucks received any payment for the work that they
20 carried out?
21 A. They didn't receive any payment.
22 Q. And do you know this from speaking to them, or are you -- do you
23 have another reason why you say that they didn't receive payment?
24 A. I know this because I had conversations with them.
25 Q. Thank you. Do you happen to know if any of the Serb women who
1 were working in other sorts of work, so non-farm labour, received payment
2 for the work they carried out?
3 A. They probably received payment for the work that they were
4 carrying out in their regular jobs. Yes, this is something that I know.
5 Q. Can I just clarify. You say you know it, but you've also said
6 that they probably received it. Is this something that you believe they
7 received, or again, you know it because of a specific source of
8 information to that effect?
9 A. Since I lived in a street where they continued to live -- Serb
10 women continued to live, in conversations with them, they explained that
11 they worked at Tekstilac, a factory for ready-made clothing. That's where
12 they were sewing uniforms, and that they received salaries for their work.
13 Q. Thank you. I think you've explained your knowledge of any of the
14 work that women did after the 17th of April. And I know that your own
15 husband was detained. Were any of your male relatives or male non-Serb
16 neighbours also required to do work?
17 A. My husband's brother will over the next few months, in the period
18 from the summer, July, August, and so on, until the month of November, be
19 carrying out forced labour of that kind.
20 Q. And you say "of that kind." What exactly -- what were the tasks
21 that he was required to do?
22 A. They would go to the fields. They would go to places where the
23 front lines were quite close. And that's where they would dig trenches.
24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Ms. Reidy, I think the transcript -- if you look
25 at line 19 of page 42, you'll see that -- this is an obvious error. The
1 witness would appear to be saying that her husband's brother will be doing
2 forced labour over the next number of months. I think we should --
3 MS. REIDY: Clarify that.
4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Amend that, clarify it.
5 MS. REIDY:
6 Q. Again, Mrs. Delic, on the record it's showing that your testimony
7 is that your brother-in-law will be performing this kind of labour in the
8 months to come in the future. Could you just please clarify for the
9 record when exactly you meant that he was required to carry out these
11 A. He was on such work obligation for the months of July, August,
12 September, and so on, until the month of November, when he was arrested.
13 Q. This was 1992, was it?
14 A. 1992.
15 Q. Thank you. Did your brother-in-law receive any payment, to the
16 best of your knowledge, for the digging of trenches that he carried out?
17 A. No, he never received any payment.
18 Q. And did you have some contact with your brother-in-law during this
19 period so he could tell you this directly?
20 A. I did have contact with him, with him and his family.
21 Q. And did he tell you specifically that he hadn't been paid or that
22 he received no payment for the tasks?
23 A. Yes. We talked about it. And in any event, he did say that they
24 didn't receive any kind of compensation for that kind of work.
25 Q. And your brother-in-law is a Muslim as well, like your husband?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And you said he was arrested in November 1992?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. You testified earlier this afternoon that, up until the 27th of
5 June, no one had ever approached you about being required to go out on
6 some form of labour. Can you please tell us what happened on the 27th of
7 June to change that. Did someone come and ask you to join any of these
8 work forces?
9 A. On the 27th of June, a soldier came into the courtyard of my
10 house, a soldier by the name of Stojan Blagojevic. His intention was to
11 tell my neighbour downstairs that he had been receiving greetings from her
12 husband from Orasje, from across the Sava River, on a daily basis, because
13 the husband of that woman had joined the Croatian army, or the HVO, or
14 whatever. And that was provocation of sorts. So that's why he came.
15 And I happened to be outside in the yard at that moment, so he
16 addressed me, too, and said, "Oh, hello, ma'am. How come you are here?
17 How come you're not working anywhere, fulfilling your work obligation?"
18 So I tried to explain, saying that I had small children and I was relieved
19 from such work. But he continued in a different vein, saying something
20 like, "Well, you know, there are easier jobs than that. You should go and
21 report to the Tekstilac factory, and they would give you suitable work
22 obligation. You should do so tomorrow."
23 And while this conversation was going on, he noticed that the door
24 of the garage behind the house was closed, so he said, "What's in the
25 garage, by the way?" I didn't say anything to that. I just opened the
1 door of the garage. And inside was our private car, Zastava 101, and some
2 other things that we usually stored in the garage, mainly, two machining
3 tools, lathes, that my husband used to do jobs on the side. And when he
4 was leaving, he said, "Please don't let anyone come in here or take
5 anything away. I'll come back." After that, the soldier left.
6 Q. Thank you. Did you know Stojan Blagojevic before he turned up in
7 your yard on the 27th of June?
8 A. I didn't know Stojan Blagojevic, but my neighbour explained later
9 that he used to work together with her husband in the Mebos company, where
10 my husband had been employed as well.
11 Q. So your neighbour could identify the soldier. Did you know who he
12 was there -- you said he was in the military. Do you know whether he was
13 working for the JNA or the 4th Detachment or any other body?
14 A. He was dressed in a military camouflage uniform. I can't recall
15 whether the insignia on the uniform was of the JNA or of the Serbian army.
16 Q. So he told you that you should report to the textile factory the
17 next day. Did you in fact report to the textile factory, or did you take
18 some other action based on those instructions?
19 A. This conversation took place in the afternoon, and several hours
20 later, this soldier would come back later, with company, to officially
21 confiscate the car. And around 6.00 or 7.00 p.m., from the neighbouring
22 courtyard, Miroslav Tadic showed up. I knew that he was involved with the
23 Red Cross, and I asked him to come up to the -- to my fence. It was just
24 a few steps away. I wanted to talk to him and to explain what had just
25 happened earlier that day. He told me that since I had small children, I
1 didn't have to go and perform any work obligation, but he was not really
2 authorised to decide, and he said that Simo Zaric would come instead and
3 make an official protocol and implement the orders accordingly.
4 Q. Thank you. Can I just clarify. This discussion you had with
5 Miroslav Tadic, it took place after your car had been confiscated; is that
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. I will come back to address the confiscation of your car, but for
9 the moment, I'd just like to get the full details about your call to the
10 textile factory. So you've testified that Mr. Simo Zaric would come and
11 give you an official protocol and implement the orders accordingly. Did
12 Mr. Zaric in fact call to you later that night?
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic -- or Mr. Lazarevic.
14 MR. LAZAREVIC: Objection, Your Honour. The translation was not
15 accurate. I don't believe that this was what the witness stated, that --
16 according to her testimony, what I understood in our language was that Mr.
17 Tadic informed her that Simo Zaric would come and make some sort of
18 information -- of some official information about the event that happened,
19 and not that he will issue an order to her for this kind of labour. So
20 maybe my colleagues from the Prosecutor could clarify that.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
22 Yes, Ms. Reidy, you can go back to that point and find out exactly
23 what the conversation was.
24 MS. REIDY: Certainly.
25 Q. Mrs. Delic, I think you've gathered there's maybe a translation
1 confusion. We're talking now about the conversation with Mr. Tadic that
2 evening. And he told you that Mr. Simo Zaric would come back instead of
3 him. What exactly was it that he said Mr. Zaric would do when he came by?
4 A. He said that Simo Zaric would take over, that he would explain to
5 Simo Zaric the entire situation, and that he would then take over and help
6 resolve the matter. He said that he personally was not in a position to
8 MS. REIDY: I think that explains it.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Just only one thing for the
11 record. She said that "he will make a record of the event," this is
12 something that we heard.
13 MS. REIDY: I'll ask that specifically.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Ms. Reidy, you can ask that again.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We said "protocol" in order
16 to denote some sort of official minutes or record.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: There's an explanation from the interpreters.
18 MS. REIDY:
19 Q. Okay. Mrs. Delic, we have an interpreter's explanation of the
20 matter. So could you now tell us if Mr. Zaric did in fact come by and, if
21 so, what he did when he came to see you.
22 A. In the evening hour, Mr. Zaric did indeed arrive, and I repeated
23 my explanation about what had happened earlier that day. He said he would
24 take care of it and that I didn't have to go to the Tekstilac factory the
25 next day and that I didn't have to work because I had small children at
1 home with me. That was the end of our conversation, and I had no further
2 contact with Mr. Simo Zaric. And I should also note that this Stojan
3 Blagojevic never came to my door again.
4 Q. Did Mr. Zaric simply come and tell you that there was no need for
5 you to turn up at the --
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, the witness has clearly explained. So
7 you can ask her whether there was anything else that he said. Instead of
8 you repeating what she has already said, and you know, we are taking a bit
9 too much time.
10 MS. REIDY: Okay, Your Honour.
11 Q. My question was: Did he give you anything in writing, or was all
12 his information to you oral?
13 A. I did not receive anything in writing, no decision or anything
14 like that. But he emphasised verbally that there should be no more
15 problems, that he would take care of everything, and that I didn't have to
16 go to perform any work obligation. I know that he made some notes in his
17 pad, but I don't know what he wrote down.
18 JUDGE SINGH: Excuse me, please. What about the car that was
19 taken away? Did you try to -- want to get it back?
20 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, would bit of assistance -- there is some
21 detailed information with respect to the confiscation of the car and
22 indeed a document -- an exhibit that we would like to tender into
23 evidence. So I'd now like to return to that. I just wanted to close the
24 matter of -- her instructions to return to the textile factory.
25 JUDGE SINGH: No. Because she didn't talk about the car at all.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MS. REIDY: I'll move back to that right now.
2 JUDGE SINGH: I mean, cars are important to some people.
3 MS. REIDY: Absolutely. And I'll turn to that right now.
4 Q. You said that someone came back and confiscated the car. Could
5 you tell us what happened when someone -- what happened with the car.
6 A. That soldier named Stojan Blagojevic -- at least, I learned later
7 that was his name from several persons -- he said that he would be back
8 shortly. And by "shortly," I mean an hour, not more. And he came back
9 together with another soldier, whose name I also learned later. And they
10 came carrying a written document which said that the car is being taken
11 away to meet to all requirements of the Republika Srpska. It was signed
12 by the Crisis Staff, and had the signature of Dr. Blagoje Simic on it.
13 In the bottom right-hand corner, there was also a stamp next to
14 the signature with the four letter "S" sign, and around the edge of the
15 stamp, it said, "Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac," and also, "The
16 Pelagicevo municipality in the process of being established."
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, I'd like to tender into evidence the
19 document which the witness has -- is talking about. I have given copies
20 to my colleagues. I've got copies here for the Bench and, of course, the
21 registry. And I also have the original which the witness brought with
22 her, if the Bench would like to instruct it, or perhaps the original could
23 be placed -- or a copy could be placed on the ELMO for the witness.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: How -- what is the title of the document? How would
25 you describe it?
1 MS. REIDY: The title is a "requisition order, dated the 27th of
2 June, 1992, reference number 12/06/92."
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
4 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, if I may ask, could I -- I wish to
5 produce and to enter into evidence a copy of the document. And the
6 original is simply available for inspection, if that's okay with the
7 Chamber. I'd rather give it back to the witness.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can inspect the original. The Defence
9 counsels can also inspect the original, just to make sure that the copies
10 -- we will retain exact copies of the original. It's translated, is it?
11 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. There is a final revised English
12 translation accompanying the document.
13 Maybe could I ask for the number of the exhibit to be given.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number -- oh, first let me ask
15 the Defence whether that have any objection to it being admitted into
17 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, first I would like to have a short
18 look on the original, if I may, because it's -- well, this is a new
19 document for us. But still, we can resolve this matter about the --
20 JUDGE MUMBA: When was the document given to the Defence?
21 MS. REIDY: Exactly, Your Honour. For the record, this document
22 was disclosed originally to the first defendants who came in, I believe,
23 August 1999 with the statements. Mr. Pantelic had a copy of it then. He
24 then received it as volume 8 of his disclosure when he was acting as
25 counsel for Blagoje Simic. Then, last week, I reproduced another copy of
1 it with the draft translation for him, putting him on notice that I would
2 be introducing it through this witness. I then gave him a final copy
3 yesterday. And yesterday, I brought in the original. I left it for
4 inspection. He looked at it, said, "I don't think it's important for my
5 client," and gave it back to me. So he has -- and it's exactly the one
6 he's looking at now. So this is not new. And he has also had an
7 opportunity to inspect the original prior to this witness ever taking the
9 Sorry, just for the record, this document is referred to both in
10 the statement of this witness, which Mr. Pantelic has had, and it's
11 referred to in the statement of her husband.
12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I appreciate, of course, this
13 very detailed explanation from my learned friends. In fact, I didn't say
14 that this document was never tendered to us. But simply, as I said, I
15 would just like to have a short look on the original. That's all, very
17 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. You did say, "It's a new document for
18 us." It's there on the transcript. And I heard it.
19 MR. PANTELIC: Well, in that case, I do apologise myself. It's --
20 it was not --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
22 MR. PANTELIC: -- the meaning of --
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's wrong to mislead the Court, Mr. Pantelic.
24 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I mean, it was not the -- in that sense, of
25 course. What I meant is that it's a new document for us to see in the
1 original form. That was my --
2 MS. REIDY: Sorry.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: But Ms. Reidy has explained that she had shown you
4 the original before today.
5 MR. PANTELIC: At this moment, I can confirm that this document
6 has the -- has the title, also has the headings of the authority who
7 issued this document. Of course, there is a stamp, there is a seal --
8 there is a seal, which it seems it's original. But -- I mean, these are
9 all elements for one document to be, I would say, genuine. But I take a
10 note -- and I have -- I got certain confrontations with my client. The
11 signature is absolutely -- is not a signature of Dr. Blagoje Simic. In
12 addition --
13 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, with respect, Mr. Pantelic is now giving
14 evidence. That's fine if --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
16 MS. REIDY: -- he wants to put his client's case -- yeah, when
17 Mr. Simic takes the stand, if that's what his wish is, we can hear that.
18 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry, but just another detail --
19 JUDGE MUMBA: So your stand is that the signature is not that of
20 your client. Right?
21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, and also, Your Honour, there is, on the
22 official transcript, you may see before the -- Dr. Blagoje Simic, in
23 parentheses, there is a question mark, and then "for," which means that -
24 according to my knowledge - I completely agree with the translator that
25 someone probably signed for him.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah, we -- yeah, we are dealing with admissibility
3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: So as to how much weight, you can deal with that in
5 your Defence case.
6 MR. PANTELIC: Of course. And I can -- I don't have any objection
7 for this document to be admitted as evidence.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we have the number, please.
9 MR. LUKIC: Sorry. Your Honour, may I just say a few words?
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to object
12 to the admission of this document for formal reasons. As my colleague
13 from the Prosecution said, this document has indeed been disclosed to us
14 in the pre-trial stage, and we got it together with the documentation
15 related to this witness. In the reciprocal procedure, we received this
16 document. But in the pre-trial brief, the Prosecutor did not indicate
17 this document would be used as evidence at the trial. It is an identical
18 situation as with the book of Mr. Tihic which was disclosed to us, but the
19 Prosecutor did not indicate in their trial brief that they will be
20 introducing it. And then the Trial Chamber decided that it cannot be
21 tendered. It's the same grounds in this case.
22 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ... For these
23 words of my colleague. In that case --
24 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Pantelic.
25 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ...
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, you have agreed for your client. The
2 record is that for Mr. Tadic, I think, there is an objection.
3 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And the basis is not valid.
6 MS. BAEN: We concur with Mr. Lukic's objection, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I was expecting that, actually.
8 Mr. Lazarevic?
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, as a matter of principle, also the Defence
10 of Zaric agrees fully with Mr. Lukic.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The objections are noted, but the Trial
12 Chamber will go ahead and admit the document. Matters of weight can be
13 discussed and resorted to by the Defence in their case. And at the end of
14 the trial, the Trial Chamber will decide how much weight to attach to the
16 So can we have the number, please, as an exhibit.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It's Exhibit P49 ter for the
18 B/C/S version, and P49 for the English translation. Thank you.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, you can go ahead.
20 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE SINGH: Sorry, just one minute. Mr. Pantelic, I -- as I
22 understand your position, your position is that this document was issued
23 for -- purports to be issued for and on behalf of Dr. Blagoje Simic but
24 not by him. So it is signed by somebody who is signing that document as
25 the issuant for and on behalf of Dr. Blagoje Simic. That's your stand.
1 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely, Your Honour. That is my submission.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Go ahead, Ms. Reidy.
4 MS. REIDY: Thank you. Could I also ask -- I noted that there is
5 a -- it's P49, which is on the ELMO. And it may be helpful to have P49
6 ter on the ELMO so that the accused can also see the document.
7 Thank you.
8 JUDGE SINGH: Sorry, again. Could we come down lower to the
9 signature again a bit. Thank you.
10 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, just for the record, what is on the ELMO
11 now is the photocopy -- the same one that everybody now has in front of
12 them. The original is just in front of the witness. So just in case you
13 thought that on the ELMO you were actually viewing the original.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.
15 MS. REIDY: Would Your Honour like to see the original on the
17 JUDGE SINGH: [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry. Yes.
18 MS. REIDY: That's no problem.
19 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. Show it to Mr. Pantelic, please.
20 Mr. Pantelic.
21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE SINGH: You will see on the translation a slash at the
23 bottom against the signature, a slash, a question mark, and the word
25 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. That is the situation.
1 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. And you confirm that that's what appears in
2 the B/C/S version: the slash, the question mark, and "for,"" and then
3 another slash?
4 MR. PANTELIC: My understanding, Your Honour, is for this
5 particular detail is that that was some kind of intervention of the
6 Translation Unit saying that they are not sure whether it is a word in
7 B/C/S language "for." It is a usual approach in many of the documents
8 that someone is making this detail. And that's my understanding. I mean,
9 it is not actually the situation that we have in B/C/S version of document
10 "slash," "question mark," "for," and then "slash." It is not the case.
11 But rather, I think that it's a kind of -- maybe an opinion of the
12 interpreter that that means that, this small blue detail in front of the
13 title of Mr. Blagoje Simic, which means that it's for him and that someone
14 is signing.
15 JUDGE SINGH: That's all right. No. I just want to know if in
16 the B/C/S it just says "for." Does it say that?
17 MR. PANTELIC: It seems to me, yes.
18 JUDGE SINGH: "For."
19 MR. PANTELIC: "For."
20 JUDGE SINGH: And there's nothing else -- leave the question mark
21 aside, the interpreter's question mark or someone else's question mark
23 MR. PANTELIC: There is no -- on the B/C/S version of document,
24 there is no question mark.
25 JUDGE SINGH: And there is no slash, too.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. PANTELIC: There is no slash, too.
2 JUDGE SINGH: Just "for."
3 MR. PANTELIC: Just "for."
4 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.
5 MR. PANTELIC: You're welcome, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
7 MS. REIDY: Could I just say that Mr. Pantelic is absolutely
8 entitled to assume that the squiggle in the Cyrillic version could mean
9 "for." And my understanding of the translation -- the English revised
10 translation, is that the interpreter said, well, it could possibly mean
11 it. But with respect, I think if you look at the squiggle which is beside
12 the Cyrillic "DR," standing for Dr., it could be that. I'm not saying Mr.
13 Pantelic's interpretation is completely wrong. But I don't think that
14 necessarily means that that is "for."
15 JUDGE MUMBA: No. No. Ms. Reidy, this is your case. You are the
16 people who got this document. So from your source, you should have been
17 told what this is all about. You should have anticipated that there would
18 be, you know, problems with the signature or anything, like it is usual in
19 every document. So you should tell the Trial Chamber what the position of
20 the Prosecution is.
21 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, the position of the Prosecution is clear.
22 It's going to come through this witness that she received this document.
23 What was on it, I was simply -- I'm sorry, I didn't -- just trying to draw
24 a distinction between Mr. Pantelic saying that that's what it is and
25 that's what his impression of it is. And I just hope that's clear on the
2 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. All you have to say is, as far as the
3 Prosecution case is concerned, this signature or this document, whatever
4 it is, is this. That's all. You don't have to explain anything. Just
5 tell the Trial Chamber what the position of the Prosecution about this is.
6 That's all.
7 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, we go by the -- by the translation -- by
8 the translators here that it possibly could mean "for." We have not
9 spoken with Mr. Blagoje Simic. We cannot verify that he signed this.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no.
11 MS. REIDY: So I mean --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think that's what I meant. Just go ahead
13 with your witness. Maybe it will become clearer.
14 MS. REIDY: But the Prosecution's position is that the little
15 squiggle is as the interpreters have made it clear on the English
16 translation. It could possibly mean "for," but it is unclear as to
17 whether that means it.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. All right.
19 MS. REIDY:
20 Q. Mrs. Delic, could you please have a look at the document that
21 appears on the screen in front of you, and it's also to your right. And
22 is this the document you were handed by Mr. Blagojevic when he came to
23 confiscate your car?
24 A. Yes, that's correct. That's the document. I have been in
25 possession of this document from that day, the 27th of June, 1992.
1 Q. Thank you. When -- I'd ask you to look at that document and to
2 look to the third set of lines which need to be filled in, and there's
3 some handwriting in it. And my understanding of the document is it says
4 it's for the needs of the Bosanski Samac Crisis Staff. Was that your
5 understanding at the time? Or you also said you thought it might be used
6 for the army. What were you told when you were given this document?
7 A. I wasn't given any particular explanation, and I tried to find out
8 from this document what will happen with my car, who will take it over.
9 Q. The document says that at the time of requisitioning the items, a
10 record should be compiled and signed by the owner and the user." Did that
11 occur when you car was confiscated?
12 A. No, it -- it didn't happen.
13 Q. Were you ever asked to sign any document?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Is it correct that the actual owner of the car is the name stated
16 on that document, your husband Dragan Delic?
17 A. Yes, that's correct. The car was handed over with the car's
18 documents which were in the car, as well as all the other documents that
19 go together with the car, as well as two sets of keys. But this wasn't
20 noted in any particular record or report.
21 Q. The document says that: "Where an asset is requisitioned in the
22 absence of the owner, it shall be done by a committee comprising three
23 members." How many people came to requisition your husband's car?
24 JUDGE SINGH: [Microphone not activated] The committee would not
25 come down. That would be just a legal owner, isn't it -- "If the asset is
1 requisitioned in the absence of the owner, the requisition will be
2 conducted by a committee comprising three members." Could that mean that
3 the requisition is signed by the committee?
4 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'm afraid I've got: "The requisition
5 shall be conducted," not "the requisition order shall be issued by." So
6 that's just -- I'm just following my logical interpretation of the word
7 "conducted," rather than "requisition order issued by."
8 Q. How many people came to requisition your car? Was it Mr.
9 Blagojevic by himself or was he in the company of anybody else?
10 A. Besides Blagojevic, there was another soldier. He appeared later
11 with another person. He didn't tell me the name. He didn't introduce
12 himself. But I found out later that his name was Aco Jokic -- Joksic --
13 but I didn't know this person and I never saw him again.
14 Q. Thank you. Did you ever see your car after it was taken away by
15 Mr. Blagojevic?
16 A. After about ten days, I saw that my car was being driven around
17 town by some person. I didn't see that the person who was driving the car
18 was in a military uniform or any kind of uniform. I simply don't know who
19 it was who was driving the car.
20 Q. Thank you. And was that the only time you saw your car for the
21 rest of the time you remained in Bosanski Samac?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Have you made any attempt to get back your car since you left
24 Bosanski Samac?
25 A. No. And it states at the end, in any case, that with proper
1 documentation -- I don't have any -- I don't have any papers any longer
2 proving that I had the car.
3 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether -- I think, sorry --
4 MS. REIDY: I'm now finished with my use of the documents, so
5 maybe it can be taken from the ELMO, unless the Bench have any questions
6 about the documents.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I just have one question. She did say she
8 didn't sign anything. Was there a copy of this order, was any copy given
9 to her, just as a record that they had taken the car?
10 MS. REIDY:
11 Q. Your Honour was asking was this -- this document was given to
12 you. Was this the only record given to you when your car was taken away?
13 A. That's the only document that I have about that.
14 JUDGE SINGH: And just, what was the value of your car?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not really very good at
16 determining the value, but it states the make of the car is Zastava
17 Stojadin 101. It wasn't new. It was perhaps five years old. So perhaps
18 an estimate can be made later. But I'm not very good at giving you such
19 an estimate.
20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I just have one question as well. In the English
21 version, the third line in the first paragraph says inter alia: "The
22 following shall be requisitioned for temporary-permanent use." Okay? And
23 then the bottom paragraph only talks about reimbursement for the temporary
24 use of assets or requisitioned goods and so on. I'm wondering what
25 "temporary/permanent use" is. If the requisition was for permanent
1 use and not temporary use of the car, then the bottom paragraph would seem
2 to indicate that the Crisis Staff was not going to be giving any
3 composition, even with proper documentation. And whether it's
4 clarification from counsel or from the witness as to the meaning of
5 "temporary/permanent use," I would appreciate it.
6 MS. REIDY: Certainly. I think maybe the witness would certainly
7 be in a better position than me to answer that.
8 Q. But were you told whether your car was just being temporarily
9 requisitioned or permanently requisitioned? Any indication as to what
10 exactly it was being used for or how long it would be kept?
11 A. The car was taken without any additional explanations. And in
12 such situations, a visit by these two soldiers was sufficient for me just
13 to feel happy that they left as soon as they could, and I wasn't even
14 thinking about the material value of the goods that were being taken away.
15 I didn't receive any kind of explanation about this, neither did I seek
16 any explanation.
17 MS. REIDY: It may not be of assistance, but I think that's as far
18 as we can go.
19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Well, I think that's as best as one can.
20 And I'm assuming that you're also going to be discussing perhaps
21 whether the two lathe machinery items were also removed or left in the
22 garage, as the case might be.
23 MS. REIDY: Yes, I will -- I was going to ask.
24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay fine. Thank you.
25 MS. REIDY: No problem. But is the Bench satisfied with the
1 inquiries about the document itself, while I ask the --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think it's fine.
3 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
4 Q. Now, Mrs. Delic --
5 MS. REIDY: Sorry, I can give the original back to the witness,
6 may I?
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
8 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
9 Q. Mrs. Delic, you've testified and shown us a document showing that
10 your car was taken. Was there other items from your garage, such as the
11 machinery, or other things taken, or from your house?
12 A. At that time, nothing more was taken. But it was indicated to me
13 by this soldier, Blagojevic, that I shouldn't touch anything and that he
14 would come back to look for these things.
15 Q. Did he come back?
16 A. No, he never came back. It all remained in the garage after the
17 4th of September.
18 Q. Did you have any foodstuffs in the garage at the time?
19 A. No. There was just a crate of beer there. And they took that
20 away, of course, without making any kind of record. On that day, the 27th
21 of June, I know that it was very difficult to get those kinds of beverages
22 on the market, so they took that, thinking that I probably obtained that
23 from somewhere. So they were questioning me about it. But they were very
24 satisfied to have found these drinks. They didn't take anything else.
25 Q. Do you know whether any other cars or vehicles were taken from any
1 of your other non-Serb neighbours?
2 A. Most of the vehicles had already been confiscated. So it was
3 quite strange to find a car like that in a garage after such a long time.
4 And the reaction was such that -- that even this confiscation was carried
5 out very quickly.
6 Q. And did you notice whether your Serb neighbours were -- still had
7 their cars, were driving around in their cars?
8 A. Of course they had their own cars and used them for their private
10 Q. You --
11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Ms. Reidy, I apologise if you might be going to
12 ask this. But once again, just in case, could you clarify with the
13 witness whether she went and spoke to anybody in official circles in the
14 municipality about the confiscation. You know, maybe just a "yes "or a
15 "no," and if "no," why not?
16 MS. REIDY:
17 Q. I don't think I need to repeat the question.
18 A. I didn't talk with anybody from the official authorities. During
19 those days -- and it should be clear -- that it was very difficult for me
20 to live in such conditions and that something like that never even crossed
21 my mind, to ask for my vehicle or to ask for an explanation why it was
23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: The reason I was asking the question was because
24 in the circumstances of the work obligation in the textile factory, of
25 course you did have a few words first of all with Mr. Tadic, and then
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 secondly, with Mr. Zaric, who helped you. And -- so therefore, I was
2 wondering whether, with respect to the property, you might have done the
3 same thing, spoken to somebody like Mr. Tadic -- like Mr. Zaric, for
4 example, or somebody else. But I mean, you've answered the question. But
5 to explain why I was asking it.
6 MS. REIDY: In fact, I will re-ask the question.
7 Q. I understand you said it was in the conditions, you didn't think
8 of going to an official authority. But you did speak with Mr. Tadic a
9 number of hours later. Did you mention it to him that your car had been
10 taken at that time?
11 A. I mentioned that in that conversation, but this was considered to
12 be normal in these conditions. And as he explained, he said, "This is
13 normal right now, in this situation."
14 Q. So you told him your car had been taken, and he said that was
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Did you ever ask him why your car was taken and why some of your
18 Serb neighbours' cars weren't taken? Was that normal?
19 A. I didn't have that much courage to ask why the vehicles hadn't
20 been confiscated from them. I didn't ask him that.
21 Q. You said that you spoke with Mr. Zaric later. Did you also refer
22 to the incident of your car being confiscated in your conversations with
24 A. I don't think that I mentioned that topic later. I was satisfied
25 just about the fact that he would try to do something so that I would not
1 be called for work obligation.
2 Q. Did you have further conversation -- you testified about one
3 conversation with Mr. Tadic in your yard on that day. Did you have
4 further conversations with Mr. Tadic after the 27th of June and before you
5 left Bosanski Samac?
6 A. That was the first contact, when I complained to him that I was
7 afraid that something like that would happen again. And he himself
8 confirmed that it could happen, that somebody could come to the house and
9 take something and that -- then I talked about the possibility of leaving
10 the town as well as whether it was possible that I be included in the list
11 for exchange. So I was asking about the possibility of getting out of the
12 town in some way. The town at that time was closed. It was like a town
14 Q. And why did you ask Mr. Tadic about the possibilities of leaving
15 the town?
16 A. Because he was involved in work in the Serbian Red Cross, and he
17 dealt with exchange issues and the possibility of leaving town.
18 Q. And how did you come to know that it was Mr. Tadic who you should
19 deal with if you wanted to leave town?
20 A. I knew that because certain similar exchanges had already taken
21 place. When I say "similar," what I mean are exchanges through which
22 citizens left. They had the opportunity or the possibility to leave
24 Q. Why did you want to leave Samac? Why did you raise the question
25 of getting out of Samac with Mr. Tadic?
1 A. At that time, it was already obvious that there was no other way
2 to normalise the life of my children, my husband, and myself, in that
3 town. I couldn't just get into my own vehicle and leave town when I
4 wanted to. My husband was arrested, and the conditions that he was there
5 and all the things that he had to bear there were getting worse and
6 worse. So I spent many hours, a lot of time, trying to get my name and my
7 husband's name on some list for exchange.
8 Q. Thank you. We'll come to deal with that in greater detail. But
9 could I ask you first if you also know someone by the name of Ilija
11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Could I just interrupt before you do that. I
12 don't see, unless my eyes are deceiving me, an answer to your question on
13 page 66, line 24 and 25, when you say, Ms. Reidy, "Why didn't you raise
14 the question of getting out of Samac with Mr. Tadic?" If you can point to
15 me to the answer, fine. But I don't -- I don't think I heard it, and I
16 don't think I see it.
17 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. I think it's because I badly
18 phrased the question. Is your concern why she raised it with Mr. Tadic
19 specifically, or what was her impulse for deciding -- for raising the
20 topic of leaving at all? Because --
21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: With Mr. Tadic specifically.
22 MS. REIDY: Okay. I thought I had covered that in previous
23 questions, but I have no problem --
24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: If the answer is simply because he was involved
25 with the Red Cross, fine. If not, maybe there's more. I -- you know, I
1 leave it up to you, counsel.
2 MS. REIDY:
3 Q. I think it would be helpful just for the record if you could
4 clarify why was it again, with Mr. Tadic that you raised the possibility
5 of leaving Samac.
6 A. Precisely because he dealt with exchanges. He was involved in the
7 work of the Serbian Red Cross.
8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
9 MS. REIDY:
10 Q. I'd asked you whether or not you know anybody called Ilija Ristic.
11 A. I knew him as a citizen of Bosanski Samac.
12 Q. Did you ever meet Ilija Ristic in Bosanski Samac after the 17th of
13 April, 1992?
14 A. During a visit to the Red Cross, on the premises of the Red Cross
15 somewhere, I met him in the corridor. I don't know what day it was. When
16 he saw me, he asked me right away what I wanted and why did I come there.
17 Then I told him, "Because I wanted to ask to have my name and my
18 children's names placed on the exchange list." He was surprised, in a
19 way, and he said, "Well, I thought that you would remain as loyal citizens
20 here in town. And now you are asking to leave."
21 Q. And what did you say back to him?
22 A. "I don't have any other means of living a normal life. I don't
23 have any other funds. And this is the only way for me to get out of this
24 situation that I am in."
25 Q. Thank you. Now, you've testified to trying to get your name and
1 your children's name on a list. How did you do this? You met with
2 Mr. Tadic on the 27th of June, and then what efforts were involved in
3 trying to get your name and your children's name on a list for exchange?
4 A. The information that I had at that moment was as follows: Just
5 the fact that I reported in there meant that I consented to some -- to
6 this particular way of leaving town, because that was the only way that
7 was open to me. In my first contacts, it was explained to me that for me,
8 because I was a Croat, and for my children, there would be no problem to
9 do something like that but that my husband was problematic because it
10 wouldn't be so easy for him to leave.
11 Q. And your husband was problematic why?
12 A. I never got a specific official explanation why he was a problem.
13 But when speaking to Mr. Tadic, I always got the same answer, that it was
14 very difficult and that all matters related to prisoners were decided by
15 the Crisis Staff, which was based in Pelagicevo. However, I never got any
16 official information about that. I always associated permissions for
17 certain people to be released with the name of Stevan Todorovic, although
18 I don't know what his capacity for official decision-making was and what
19 his true influence was.
20 Q. You said that you reported -- the fact that you'd reported to that
21 place meant that you had given some form of consent. Where exactly were
22 you reporting?
23 A. I always went to the offices of the Serbian Red Cross, where I
24 could find Mr. Tadic, who was the person to address on such matters.
25 Q. How many -- could you tell us to the best of your knowledge
1 roughly how many times you went to the Red Cross or spoke with Mr. Tadic
2 about an exchange between the 27th of June and the 4th of September?
3 A. I don't know exactly how many times I went there, but it must have
4 been at least four or five times.
5 Q. When you went, were you given any information as to what the
6 exchange would involve, what you'd be allowed to bring with you, that sort
7 of information?
8 A. It was only sometime in August that the possibility of such an
9 exchange began to materialise and that it became possible even for my
10 husband, perhaps, to be included in such a list. I was told that I could
11 take some personal belongings and not more than 200 Deutschmark.
12 Q. And who told you that information?
13 A. Mr. Tadic.
14 Q. When did you find out that you were actually going to be
16 A. After several attempts, I was officially informed on the 3rd of
17 September, the evening of the 3rd of September, by a messenger carrying a
18 piece of paper with a list of names on it. I was not allowed to inspect
19 this paper and read the names. I was just told by this messenger that I
20 should be ready for the exchange that was scheduled for 8.00 in the
21 morning. In fact, at 8.00 in the morning, we were supposed to show up --
22 to report to the courtyard of the school where buses or trucks would be
23 waiting and that one travel bag per person was allowed as luggage.
24 Q. Did you know the messenger who came to your door?
25 A. I knew him. His name -- or nickname was Pasan; his last name was
1 Subasic. And working as a messenger was his work duty or work
2 obligation at the time.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, prior to being told - this was in
4 September - you also said that in September there had been another
5 attempt to arrest you. Was this before or after you learned that you were
6 to be exchanged?
7 A. That notification about the exchange on the 3rd of September did
8 not come as a surprise, because I was waiting for it by that time. But on
9 the 2nd of September, or perhaps in the last 15 days prior to that, that
10 is, from the end of August into early September, deportations continued of
11 the remaining family members of detainees, men who had left some family
12 members behind at home. If the person who took that particular man away
13 saw at the time that there were other family members inside that home,
14 would remember that, and these people would be later taken to Zasavica.
15 So I was waiting for them to come for me too, and I had already prepared
16 for that. I had my bags packed and ready to be taken away to Zasavica.
17 On the 2nd of September, it was a warm day. I was in my back
18 yard together with my neighbour with whom I shared that house, and there
19 were two more neighbours from the same street with us, all women. Since
20 we had been without electricity for a long time by that, we cooked
21 outdoors. And at one point, I noticed a truck was pulling up, a truck
22 with orange tarpaulin, and I could hear somehow that below the tarpaulin,
23 the truck was not empty, there were people inside, and you could hear the
24 hum of their voices. And I realised at that moment that I was in danger
25 of being taken away in this raid and deported.
1 My children were playing with the neighbour's children at the time
2 not far away, and my first thought was, My children are safe. I told my
3 neighbours, "If somebody comes looking for me, tell the them I went to the
4 Red Cross office to talk about some exchange." And perhaps naively I hid
5 behind the garage.
6 All I could see from then on was a policeman entering my house. I
7 couldn't exactly see him entering the house, but I could see him climbing
8 the stairs leading up to my door. So from my hiding place, I could see
9 him walking about -- walking to and fro on the balcony looking for me.
10 And failing to find me, he asked -- he asked my neighbours about me, and
11 they replied I wasn't at home. He did not insist nor did he bother them
12 any more with the questions. They later said that they were under the
13 impression that he was in a hurry. He just went back to his truck,
14 started it, and left.
15 That happened in the afternoon of the 2nd September. And the
16 next -- and I thought that I was safe for that day. However, I was afraid
17 that there would be another attempt to collect me, and I went the next day
18 to the Red Cross office to ask Mr. Tadic if any exchanges were planned.
19 And I told him they had been to look for me already, and if no exchange
20 materialised in the near future, I would be taken to Zasavica for
21 certain. It was then that he told me that an exchange would be taking
22 place the next day.
23 Q. Did he tell you at that time that you were going to be part of it
24 or just simply that there was an exchange taking place?
25 A. He told me that I would be part of it and that my husband would be
1 included too.
2 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, I see it's coming to 6.00. And while
3 there are a lot of questions, I think, that arise out of that answer, it
4 may be wise to pick that up tomorrow.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just one very short question. And it can have, I
7 think, a yes-or-no answer. And that is: To be on the exchange list, did
8 any person ask you for money?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, nobody asked me for money.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: We will adjourn and continue tomorrow in the
11 afternoon at 14.15 hours.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just say something, please?
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what happened with this
15 original. I'm confused. Did I already have it with me, or is it
16 somewhere around?
17 MS. REIDY: There's no need to worry. I have it, and I'll retain
18 it and ensure it gets back to you when you've finished your testimony.
19 MR. PANTELIC: The document is in safe hands.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
22 at 6.00, to be reconvened on Thursday,
23 the 28th day of February, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.