Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6482

1 Thursday, 28 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Milan Simic not present]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: We are continuing with examination-in-chief.

12 MS. REIDY: Thank you.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Ms. Reidy: [Continued]

16 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Delic. I would like to ask you some

17 questions about your final piece of testimony yesterday. You mentioned a

18 place called Zasavica, and you said you had your bags packed and ready to

19 be taken. Where is Zasavica and what exactly was it? Was it a detention

20 camp?

21 A. Zasavica is a village near Bosanski Samac. It was mostly

22 inhabited by Croats. It also bordered with some Serb villages. But it

23 was also in the direction of the Crkvina Samac road. So this is where the

24 road turned off to Zasavica. It was a right turning on that road.

25 Q. And you testified that people were being taken there to be

Page 6483












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6484

1 detained; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. Who was being taken for detention there?

4 A. Mostly Croats and Muslims were being detained, women and children,

5 sometimes entire families. Mostly non-Serb citizens.

6 Q. Do you know yourself of people who were taken and held in

7 Zasavica?

8 A. I know for sure that Muftic Jasna, with her child, was taken from

9 her house. She was among the first. Sultanija Abramovic. Later in this

10 period in September, this occurred more frequently, and more people were

11 being taken away, so that all those who had somebody who was detained in

12 the camp in Samac, the family members, were simply gathered up from their

13 homes and deported to Zasavica. For example, Filduza Nalic was also taken

14 away. I'm speaking about people who I know personally.

15 Q. Thank you. And when they were put in this village, were they put

16 in -- or do you have any information as to where they were detained there

17 or the conditions of their detention in the village?

18 A. The conditions there and what was going on there is something that

19 I know about from talking with those people. They were accommodated in

20 the houses of people who used to live there before, Croats. A

21 considerable number of the population who lived there before had already

22 been deported in various exchanges, or they were expelled from their

23 homes, so that new people were constantly being moved into these family

24 houses in Zasavica.

25 Q. And were the people who were taken to Zasavica free to leave if

Page 6485

1 they wanted?

2 A. The people that I knew told me that they couldn't leave the

3 village simply. It was being monitored. They were also obliged to carry

4 out work duties. I don't know whether you could call this compulsory

5 labour or forced labour.

6 Q. Thank you. Can I turn now to the morning of the 4th of

7 September. And you had received instructions to go to the courtyard of

8 the school, you said. Did you go to the school on the 4th of September?

9 A. Yes, that's correct. I went there in the morning before 8.00 a.m.

10 Our house was nearby. Some of the neighbours who were not about to be

11 exchanged, non-Serbs, my neighbours, they accompanied me, they helped me

12 carry the bags that we had packed. They went with me to the schoolyard of

13 the primary school. In the schoolyard, I found a large number of people,

14 a crowd. Some were ready to leave and others were there to see off

15 members of their families who were supposed to be leaving town.

16 Q. In this large crowd, were there -- what was the ethnicity of the

17 people?

18 A. I recognised mostly my neighbours, my Croat and Muslim neighbours.

19 Q. And were the people combatants, military persons, or were they

20 civilians?

21 A. They were all civilians: women, children, the elderly. Also

22 there were some younger people, but they were all civilians.

23 Q. You said the crowd was large. Could you give us some estimation

24 as to how many people were there.

25 A. There were about 200 people at least in that crowd. Not all of

Page 6486

1 them went for the exchange, but at that point, that was how many people

2 there were in the yard.

3 Q. Could you tell us what happened next after you gathered in the

4 yard.

5 A. I found out then that the primary school building in some hall or

6 corridor, there was also a group of prisoners who were supposed to leave

7 in that exchange as well. My husband was among them, and they told me

8 that I could go inside, into the premises of the primary school, to see

9 him, to see him for the first time after so many months and to actually

10 speak to him freely.

11 Q. Did you go and see your husband?

12 A. Yes. I went up there with my children, and I saw him in a group

13 with a few others who were supposed to be exchanged that morning. They

14 were ready for the exchange.

15 Q. Where did this meeting take place exactly?

16 A. It was just one section of the corridor, and the people who were

17 there were brought there that morning, and they were waiting for 8.00 when

18 the roll call was supposed to start and when people were supposed to start

19 getting onto the buses.

20 Q. What was the condition of your husband? What did he look like,

21 for example, when you met him on this occasion?

22 A. I noticed something that was very easy to notice: His head was

23 shaved, and he looked much neater like that, compared to earlier occasions

24 when I managed to see him when he had very long, dirty hair and also an

25 unkempt beard. The others also had shaved heads. He also had a shaved

Page 6487

1 head, and he was neatly shaved. He was wearing a jacket that he had had

2 from before. His eyes were sunken. His face looked tortured. He was

3 very emaciated. He was much thinner than when he left home on the 22nd of

4 April.

5 Q. Did you see his teeth?

6 A. He attempted to smile, but he was trying to conceal that. And I

7 tried to hide my astonishment because of the way he looked. He had always

8 taken care of himself, and he had taken proper care of his teeth. But at

9 that point, I noticed that a lot of teeth were missing, that he had gaps

10 in places where he once had teeth.

11 Q. Would you please tell the Court what happened after you spoke with

12 your husband.

13 A. You could hear the voices of the people from outside much louder

14 now, and then we were told that we should be going up to the buses. My

15 name was called out. They knew that I was coming with two children, so we

16 were able to get onto the bus among the first. Then the other civilians

17 were called out from the crowd. They quietly entered the buses. They

18 were -- and we were handing our bags over to be placed in the luggage

19 compartment. I had brought a bag for my husband as well, because we

20 thought that each person would have the right to carry one bag. And since

21 he didn't have anything, we brought a bag from home.

22 Q. Did your husband get on the same bus as you and the children?

23 A. He was called out later from a different list, and these people

24 got onto the same bus. The prisoners, Dragan included, got onto the bus

25 where we were, so we were able to sit together with our children.

Page 6488

1 Q. How many buses in total were filled in this manner at the primary

2 school?

3 A. There were three buses ready at that point, and they were used for

4 that particular exchange.

5 Q. Do you know the person who called out your names, who was reading

6 the names off the list?

7 A. One of the members of the Serbian Red Cross was on the bus. He

8 used to work as a teacher before. So he was on the bus. And I know now

9 that he was one of the people who was calling out the names. He called

10 out my name, and we went into the bus. His name was Stevo Vasovic.

11 Q. Did you see Mr. Tadic at the primary school that morning?

12 A. Mr. Tadic joined the exchange as well. He was in a special -- in

13 separate car. He wasn't on the buses, but he was following the buses. He

14 was accompanied by two people in police uniforms. He had lists of people

15 who were permitted to take part in the exchange.

16 Q. You say he joined the exchange. So he joined it after the buses

17 had left the primary school, or he joined it in that car at the primary

18 school?

19 A. He was there as people were getting onto the buses.

20 Q. Thank you. So when the buses left the primary school, where did

21 they go to?

22 A. From the schoolyard of the primary school, the buses went first in

23 the direction of the police station. Then several people were brought out

24 of the police station in Samac who also got onto the buses, and they were

25 also exchanged. I didn't know these people. They were from the nearby

Page 6489

1 villages, as I found out later.

2 After this short break, the bus went in the direction of Zasavica,

3 and then a group of people who used to live in Bosanski Samac also got

4 onto the buses, so they were in Zasavica at that time. And they also

5 participated in this exchange.

6 Q. Did anybody who joined you either in the police station or in

7 Zasavica wear a military uniform, or to the best of your knowledge, were

8 they all civilians?

9 A. They were all civilians: Women, children, men. They were all

10 civilians.

11 Q. To the best of your knowledge, what was the ethnic background of

12 the people who joined the exchange?

13 A. People that I knew from the town were Muslims and Croats. But I

14 could also tell from the clothes that the women were wearing, I could tell

15 that the women -- some women came from Croat villages, and they were

16 wearing their full costumes.

17 Q. Thank you. After you took -- collected some more people in

18 Zasavica, where did you go then?

19 A. We went on further towards Modrica. On the road, we were joined

20 by several people from Modrica, also non-Serbs, because we inquired where

21 they were from. The bus and the other buses were getting more and more

22 full. Then we continued our journey through Doboj, Podnovlje, then

23 Prnjavor, Bosanska Gradiska, and we were supposed to reach Dragalici,

24 which was supposed to be the place of exchange. The journey lasted from

25 8.00 in the morning. We were in Bosanska Gradiska sometime after noon. I

Page 6490

1 think it was 12.00 or 12.30.

2 Q. Did the bus stop then in Bosanska Gradiska, or did you continue on

3 through Dragalici?

4 A. The bus stopped there because they told us that there were some

5 slight problems because somebody was perhaps not being careful enough in

6 their conversation, because we had heard that the number of people who

7 were supposed to cross the bridge over the Sava does not correspond with

8 the number of people that were supposed to be there in that exchange.

9 Then there were people joining the convoy who were from other places, in

10 Krajina and other places. In any case, we stopped at that place and we

11 spent several hours there, until this problem was resolved.

12 Q. From whom were you getting the information that there was a

13 problem with numbers?

14 A. I think that they discussed this normally, the people who were

15 accompanying the bus, the people from the Serbian Red Cross, and that's

16 how we accidentally found out what the whole thing was about. Nobody

17 actually explained this to us.

18 Q. Can you tell the Court what happened after this problem was

19 resolved.

20 A. After that, we continued on our way. We crossed the bridge over

21 the Sava and passed into the so-called pink zone, where we encountered UN

22 soldiers. We continued our journey, and I know that these soldiers were

23 there at the ramp across the bridge. The road led towards Dragalici and

24 continued on towards Slavonski Brod, in that direction. We continued our

25 trip without stopping all the way until Dragalici. It was an abandoned

Page 6491

1 and destroyed petrol station, a kind of resting area, a resting area along

2 the highway.

3 Q. And what happened when you arrived at the petrol station?

4 A. The buses stopped. They were parked one next to the other. We

5 were permitted to get off the buses. The roll call was carried out

6 again. Those who were called out, or a group of people which was called

7 out, was permitted to leave that place. At the same time, we could see

8 that there were buses on the opposite side full of people who were also

9 coming out and crossing to the other side towards us in groups, and we

10 were going in their direction.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, at this stage could I ask the witness to

13 be shown two documents which I would like to actually tender into

14 evidence. They are lists of exchanges from this day, and the witness's

15 name appears on both lists.


17 MS. REIDY: Defence counsel have been provided already with these

18 lists.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

20 MS. REIDY: And for the record, Your Honour, one of these lists is

21 in fact already in evidence as Exhibit D4/3. But on that particular

22 version, the -- there is a marking on the -- this witness's name, and so

23 it's not legible. So I'd propose just to provide this copy of the list

24 and -- where the witness's name is visible.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: So a copy of D4/3 which is much better, which is

Page 6492

1 clearer.

2 MS. REIDY: Exactly.


4 MS. REIDY: It seems that on the other copy someone took a blue

5 highlighter or something to the witness's name, and when it got

6 photocopied, it didn't -- you can't read it. So this is one without that

7 highlighting, so the witness's name is clearly visible.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So maybe we can look at D4/3 as well when we

9 are looking at this cleaner copy, so that we just make sure it is one in

10 the same document.

11 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour.

12 Your Honour, I'll deal maybe first then with the list which is the

13 same as Exhibit D4/3, and that is a list entitled, "Prisoners exchanged on

14 the 4th of September, 1992 in Dragalic."

15 And could I ask if the usher could put a B/C/S version on the ELMO

16 for the defendants.


18 MS. REIDY: Yes, D4/3.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, just one intervention.


22 MR. PANTELIC: Because this document -- yes, it's maybe a

23 confusing matter, but maybe I misunderstood the transcript. This is the

24 line 15, and my learned friend is actually -- Ms. Reidy told us that it's

25 Exhibit D4/3, and it's a list entitled, "Prisoners exchanged on the 4th of

Page 6493

1 September, 1992 in Dragalic." And the exact title of this document is --

2 it's a list of "Persons exchanged on 4th of September, 1992 in Dragalic."

3 Maybe --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: That is the title of D4/3?

5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, of the document in B/C/S version which is now

6 on ELMO. So maybe it's rather confusing.

7 MS. REIDY: Sorry, I'm corrected. Mr. Pantelic is correct. It

8 should be "Persons exchanged on the 4th of September in Dragalic," and not

9 "prisoners exchanged." And that's --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: So the translation is a mistake.

11 MS. REIDY: Yeah, I'll get that rectified. Because the

12 translation of the -- the translation which exists with -- well, which is

13 P4/3 where the witness's name is crossed out, has the correct title on it.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's get this sorted out. D4/3 has got the English

15 translation already.

16 MS. REIDY: That's correct, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And that says, "List of persons."

18 MS. REIDY: "List of persons."

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So then we do away with this one which -- the

20 copy. The other translation which has a wrong title, then.

21 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. The only problem then is when you

22 look at D4/3, beside number "1," where the witness's name is, in the

23 translation -- in the English version it will say "crossed out," because

24 that's what it looked like on D4/3 ter.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can I look at D4/3, the English translation of D4/3.

Page 6494

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Ms. Reidy, and also to the Defence counsel, I

3 wanted us to agree that we take D4/3, the one which says, "List of persons

4 exchanged on 4 September, 1992 in Dragalic," if we all agree that it's

5 actually one and the same list and use that one for purposes of the

6 evidence of this witness.

7 Yes.

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we have these

9 two copies to look at and compare.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. D4/3.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May I just briefly consult with my

13 client, with your leave.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.

15 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence is able to

17 confirm this and agrees to this being admitted as evidence, with the

18 proviso that on document marked D4/3, the name of Delic, Snjezana is

19 clearly visible.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Is that agreeable? Ms. Reidy?

21 MS. REIDY: Yes, I'm quite happy to use D4/3. But I'm just

22 wondering how we addressed the problem that on D4/3, it's currently on the

23 record, the first name is recorded as being crossed out.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought it was a machine smudge when taking the

25 photocopy.

Page 6495

1 MS. REIDY: Yes. Well, my understanding is it wasn't so much a

2 smudge but a highlighter that -- in the photocopy. But D4/3, that being

3 the English version, actually says at point 1, "crossed out." And that's

4 actually my concern. Because if that's the record, then it's going to be

5 difficult to ask the witness to identify this name.

6 I have to apologise to the Court, I'm completely at fault about

7 the second translation not being correct and I'm sorry it's causing

8 inconvenience. Maybe it will be easier to work on the basis -- I'm happy

9 to agree that it should be "persons exchanged," not "prisoners." And I

10 will get that amended and have it filed with the Chamber as an exhibit.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So we do not accept this translation for

12 the time being.

13 MS. REIDY: Exactly, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: And we'll just deal with the Serbo-Croat copy.

15 MS. REIDY: That would be fine, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we should have -- it should have its own

17 number.

18 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because in case of any matter arising, then

20 all the copies will be there for whoever is looking at the evidence to

21 check.

22 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number for it.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be P51. And the

25 previous exhibit that says "list of women to be exchanged," is P50, and

Page 6496

1 that is under seal? Did you want that under seal?

2 MS. REIDY: No, there's no need to have it under seal.


4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, there seems to be a bit of confusion

5 in the transcript, because all the way down this document is being called

6 D4/3. And now it's P -- whatever the number that was just given. Could I

7 clarify. Is this a "D" or a "P" document?

8 MS. REIDY: The two new documents I've handed up are now "P"

9 documents. There is already a "D" document on file.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So what the Prosecution will do is we'll get a

11 correct translation of D -- of P51.

12 MS. REIDY: That's correct, Your Honour. So that we're now

13 dealing with P51 ter.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I didn't ask the Defence about -- okay. Maybe

15 I'll ask them when you deal with P50 whether they have any objection. All

16 right. You can proceed with P51 ter.

17 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

18 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise, Your Honours. In line 3 of page of

19 14, the Registrar said, Your Honours, the number will be P51, and now my

20 learned colleague says it's P51 ter.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Because it's in Serbo-Croat, that's all. That's

22 the reason.

23 MR. PANTELIC: That's all.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah. When the correct translation comes on the

25 scene, then it will be P51.

Page 6497

1 MS. REIDY: Is it possible to put P51 ter on the ELMO.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I suppose so, yes, with the assistance of the usher.

3 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

4 Q. Mrs. Delic, is that your name at the top of that list?

5 A. Correct. That's my name and surname.

6 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at the bottom of that document. And

7 you see the name Mijo Matanovic. Do you know that person?

8 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me, Your Honours. We don't have the whole

9 document on our screens. Maybe --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. You can't see the bottom.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe Mr. Usher can help us with zooming.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. It will be moved appropriately so we can

13 all have a view.


15 Q. Mrs. Delic, can you now see the name Mijo Matanovic at the bottom

16 of that document?

17 A. I can see it, yes. I didn't know Mijo Matanovic before that

18 exchange. I met him at the exchange because he shook hands with everyone

19 who was set to leave and who was coming in through that exchange. As I

20 said, I hadn't known him before that.

21 Q. And was he working for the authorities you were leaving, or was he

22 working for the authorities in the place that you went to following the

23 exchange?

24 A. At any rate, he was in the employ of the authorities who were

25 taking care of the departure of citizens of Bosanski Samac who were not of

Page 6498

1 Serb ethnicity. This modality was the only way for them to leave Samac.

2 Q. Was he working in Samac, or was he working in Croatia?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. The document shows a list of 21 persons. Do you know some of the

5 other people on that list?

6 A. Certainly. I recall my former fellow citizens. I recognise the

7 name of Mesic. It's Mesic in the English translation, but it's actually

8 Mesic, followed by Stanic, Marija, a retired teacher.

9 Q. It would be helpful for us maybe if you also mentioned the number,

10 just the numbers of the list of the people that -- thank you.

11 A. Number 2 is Evica Mesic, whom I also now from around town. Number

12 3 is Marija Stanic. Number 4, Ridvana Mujkanovic, marked with -- her name

13 is marked with plus 2, which means she had two children with her. Number

14 20 is Anica Nikolic, and number 21, Sultanija Abramovic. Those are the

15 persons whom I knew personally.

16 Q. Although there's 21 people on this list, were you exchanged with

17 just the people on that list, or were you exchanged with a lot more

18 people?

19 A. With more people. Those other persons could have even lived in

20 Samac or in the surrounding villages. I'm not sure about that. But at

21 any rate, the truck was full -- the bus was full.

22 Q. Thank you. Could I ask the witness now to be shown P50 ter, and

23 if P50 ter could be put on the ELMO?

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Ms. Reidy, while that's happening, I wonder

25 whether you could clarify with the witness, at the bottom of the document,

Page 6499

1 in the English translation, it says President of the commission for the

2 exchange of prisoners and arrested civilians." I'd like to know from the

3 witness whether she had ever been arrested as -- and/or was ever a

4 prisoner to be therefore on this list designated as either of those two

5 categories.


7 Q. Mrs. Delic, would you answer Her Honour's question?

8 A. I don't know how I would qualify my status at the time. I was

9 living at home, but my movement was restricted. I could not simply leave

10 Bosanski Samac; that was not possible, because the entire town was in a

11 blockade, was strictly controlled. At least, that's how it appeared to

12 me.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: All I was going to say -- clearly, I understand

15 that the English translation that I read from is the one that we have not

16 admitted because of the -- the incorrect language in the title, as pointed

17 out by Mr. Pantelic. But therefore, could I ask with respect to the

18 question which you've just answered, with reference to the B/C/S version

19 which is on the ELMO, being that I can't read B/C/S, I have to assume that

20 it says the same thing.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, I think we can have that corrected --

22 dealt with, if we can have a copy given to the translators.

23 MS. REIDY: I believe the translators have a copy in their booths.

24 It was --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So they can assist us --

Page 6500

1 MS. REIDY: I would only note that it appears to me that both

2 translations, the translation which is D4/3, also uses the term "president

3 for the commission for the exchange of prisoners," and it says "captured,"

4 as opposed to "arrested."

5 JUDGE MUMBA: So what are you saying? Is the English translation

6 correct at the bottom of the document?

7 MS. REIDY: As far as I'm able to attend it would appear so,

8 because if you look at D4/3, you get the same translation.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Why don't we ask the people who can translate, in

10 the booth?

11 Mr. Pantelic.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours. I would like to be of

13 assistance to this Trial Chamber and also to my colleagues. In fact,

14 Mr. Mijo Matanovic is a Croatian official, and it's not possible to

15 translate because it's on Croatian language. And you have in English

16 language practically one term. But in fact, I think that Her Honour Judge

17 Williams, may be a little bit confused. It is not the commission of Samac

18 municipality. Actually, Mr. Matanovic is an official from Croatian side,

19 and this is a title of Croatian commission, in fact. Just for

20 clarification. I don't want to spend so much time and have

21 cross-examination. I mean, you can understand my position. Thank you so

22 much.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you for the correction. And can we just have

24 the interpreters deal with that, on P51 ter.

25 JUDGE SINGH: So basically, Mr. Pantelic, this list means list of

Page 6501

1 persons in respect of a completed exchange, and it's issued by the

2 Croatian side.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely, Your Honour. That is the conclusion.

4 That is the case.

5 JUDGE SINGH: And that is their document.

6 MR. PANTELIC: To the other side. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

8 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. Would you like the --

9 JUDGE SINGH: And just one second. This word "prisoners," again,

10 is that accurate? Prisoners? Is it "prisoners," or "person," or you

11 don't know, in Croatian?

12 MR. PANTELIC: The title of Croatian commission is -- well, the

13 signature is Mr. Mijo Matanovic, president of commission for exchanged

14 prisoners and captured or arrested civilians. That is the official title

15 of Croatian commission.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah. Yeah. We will simply wait for the English

17 translation of P51 ter.


19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah. Counsel cannot translate for us.


21 JUDGE SINGH: Ms. Reidy, I think when you put in these documents,

22 just put them in one by one in an orderly fashion and explain what the

23 document is, because by just putting all these documents at one go, four,

24 five, six, there's a lot of confusion and a waste of your time.

25 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. I will.

Page 6502

1 JUDGE MUMBA: So we are now dealing with P50?

2 MS. REIDY: I thought we were going to finish P51 ter and just

3 have the witness read out the name of the commission in B/C/S so that it

4 would be translated. Is that --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah, you can complete that. I think the best way

6 is just to wait for the translation of P51 ter.

7 MS. REIDY: Okay.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: But you can complete your questions on P51 ter.

9 MS. REIDY: When you say wait for the written translation, you

10 mean not an oral translation now.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Look, this witness was just one of the people who

12 was exchanged. I don't think she's competent to tell us who Mijo

13 Matanovic was. She had already said she didn't know him. She met him on

14 that day.

15 MS. REIDY: I'm aware of that, Your Honour. That's why I -- you

16 know, I didn't get into the testimony which Mr. Pantelic gave. I simply

17 wanted to clarify if you would like a translation of the title -- of his

18 title now orally from the translators here in the booth or whether, when

19 you speak about translation, you mean waiting for the --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. We shall wait for the whole document

21 P51 ter to be translated into English, and that's the one we shall rely

22 upon. Definitely, counsel can't translate for us. That's the normal way

23 of our procedures.

24 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. As far as I'm concerned,

25 that's finished with P51 ter, and I will ask the witness to have a look at

Page 6503












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6504

1 P50 ter.

2 And could I ask the usher if he could place P50 ter on the ELMO.

3 Could I ask you to please move the document up a little bit so we could

4 see the stamp at the bottom.

5 Your Honour, just at the bottom, if you want to know, is a

6 document with a Serbia Red Cross stamp, and the Prosecution's position is

7 that this was the list prepared on the Serbian side for the exchange

8 within which this witness was involved.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I want to object.

11 There is no stamp of the Serbian Red Cross on this document. That's not

12 what's written on the stamp, unlike what Ms. Reidy says. What it says on

13 the stamp is just "Red Cross," not "Serbian Red Cross."

14 MS. REIDY: Okay. I apologise. And I just wanted to make out

15 that this is from the Serbian authorities and not from the Croatian

16 authorities.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: If you look at the English translation, P50, it

18 says, "stamp of Bosanski Samac Red Cross," and then "signature." That's

19 what the English translation says. And we take that as the correct

20 translation.

21 If the Defence are disputing that, then they can say -- they can

22 place their stand on the record, and then during the Defence case, they

23 can call witnesses, yes, to discuss the stamp or any other matter

24 surrounding the exhibits.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we will raise this

Page 6505

1 issue during the cross-examination of this witness. We just wanted to

2 avoid the record including that this is a document marked by a stamp of

3 the Serbian Red Cross. It can be introduced as a document issued by the

4 Bosanski Samac Red Cross. Moreover, the organisation of the Red Cross is

5 not an authority. It's a humanitarian organisation designed to help

6 civilians. That is the essence, the main point of our objection.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

8 Ms. Reidy, you can go ahead.

9 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

10 Q. Mrs. Delic, can you confirm for us whether your name also appears

11 on this list.

12 A. I can. Number 1 is Snjezana Delic, marked with plus 2, meaning

13 with two children.

14 Q. Can I ask you to look at names at numbers 5 and number 6 on that

15 list. Do you know those two names of those two people?

16 A. Numbers 5 and 6 are persons I know, Marta and Azra Vuco, both from

17 Bosanski Samac. They are interrelated. Azra Vuco is the daughter-in-law

18 of Marta Vuco.

19 Q. Do you know the ethnic background of these two women?

20 A. Marta Vuco is a Croat, and Azra comes from a Muslim family and

21 married Marta's son. I don't know how she declared herself at that time,

22 but she was originally a Muslim.

23 Q. Mrs. Delic, did these two women -- do you know for a fact if they

24 were exchanged with you on that day on the 4th of September?

25 A. Yes, they were. They were both exchanged that day, together with

Page 6506

1 me.

2 Q. Can you confirm from that list that -- anyone you recognise on

3 that list, that these were all women and they were civilians?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: What are you asking the witness to do? To confirm

5 from that anyone you recognise on the list --

6 MS. REIDY: I was just --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see, the people she recognised.

8 MS. REIDY: Who she recognised, exactly.

9 A. Besides the people that I already mentioned, at the end of the

10 list, under number 27, it's Anica Nikolic, and the name under 28,

11 Sultanija Abramovic. I knew those two people as well. All the mentioned

12 persons were civilians.

13 Q. And I take it they were all women as well, were they?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Mrs. Delic, just for the record, there is a different number of

16 people on the list you're looking at now compared to the other list which

17 said -- which only had 21. Would you have any information as to why

18 there's a difference in numbers?

19 A. No. I didn't receive any explanation about this.

20 Q. Thank you. Can I ask, did you see this list that you have in

21 front of you at any stage on the 4th of September when you left Bosanski

22 Samac?

23 A. No, I personally didn't see a list. I never held one in my hand.

24 My name was called out, and that was it.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 6507

1 MS. REIDY: I've finished with the document, if the Bench have any

2 questions, or else I'll ask the usher to remove it from the ELMO.

3 Thank you. I'm finished with the document.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, they can be removed.

6 I just want to make it clear that P50 ter and P50 have been

7 admitted into evidence with the objections of the Defence, as explained by

8 Mr. Krgovic, noted.

9 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

10 Q. Mrs. Delic, on -- at the time of your exchange, were you given any

11 documentation with respect to the property you had left behind you in

12 Bosanski Samac, the things you couldn't fit into the bags you had?

13 A. I didn't receive any documents. Everything stayed the way it was

14 on that last day.

15 Q. Were you given any explanation about what would happen to

16 everything that you had to leave behind you in Bosanski Samac?

17 A. I didn't receive an explanation, but I must say that I didn't ask

18 for one either. We had this opportunity to get out, and we didn't want to

19 disrupt it by asking any questions or by being wise guys, if I can put it

20 that way, or to ask for something that was not possible for us to get at

21 that point in time.

22 Q. At any stage prior to that, when you had gone to check in at the

23 Red Cross, were you ever told by Mr. Tadic or any other person there what

24 would be the fate of your property?

25 A. No, I didn't find anything out. I wasn't told anything about

Page 6508

1 that.

2 Q. Mrs. Delic, do you have any family left in Bosanski Samac now?

3 A. I don't have any family in Bosanski Samac. My mother lived in

4 Bosanski Samac until 1995. She's living with me now. She left Bosanski

5 Samac. My brother no longer lives in Bosanski Samac either, and I don't

6 have any other family members.

7 Q. Was your brother -- did your brother leave Bosanski Samac also in

8 an exchange or for some other reason?

9 A. He left with the help of friends. He left Samac earlier. He

10 didn't get out through an exchange.

11 Q. And why did your brother leave Bosanski Samac?

12 A. My mother lived alone in an apartment in Samac. At that time,

13 that was already 1995. So it's several years after 1992, after we left

14 Bosanski Samac. She was born in 1910, and she thought that she would stay

15 there, live there for the rest of her days, remain in town. At that time,

16 Serb citizens from other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina were settling in

17 Bosanski Samac, so that her apartment was required to house new refugees.

18 She was told that she would be in the position where she would have to

19 have her apartment -- she would have to make her apartment available for

20 the use of refugees, and therefore, we managed to get my mother out of

21 Bosanski Samac with the help of a few friends.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. REIDY: Can I just consult with my colleague for a minute.

24 [Prosecution counsel confer]

25 MS. REIDY: That's the end of the Prosecution examination.

Page 6509

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

2 Cross-examination?

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just would like to

4 ask the Chamber to make it possible to have a break now so that we could

5 consult -- I could consult my client about this part of the testimony

6 concerning the exchange. Some topics have been mentioned which I haven't

7 had an opportunity to consult about with my client, so I'm wondering if it

8 would be possible to have the break now, instead of in 15 minutes.

9 MS. BAEN: You know, maybe I can help here, Your Honour. If you

10 want to use the next 15 minutes, I have only one line of questioning, and

11 I can probably finish --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: So you want to cross-examine. You can start.

13 MS. BAEN: I can probably fill five or ten minutes until the

14 break.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Yes, you can go ahead.

16 Mr. Krgovic, if you want to speak with your client as the

17 cross-examination by Ms. Baen goes on, you can go ahead.

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will do that during

19 the break, because I think that the cross-examination by Ms. Baen will

20 take -- take up the time until the break.


22 MS. BAEN: I don't know about that, but I guess we'll find out.

23 Cross-examined by Ms. Baen:

24 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Delic. My name is Catharine Baen, and I'm one

25 of the lawyers for Milan Simic. And I actually just have one area I'd

Page 6510

1 like to cover with you, which is on the primary school. That's really

2 what I want to focus on.

3 Okay. So you testified today that you -- your husband was being

4 held in the primary school; right?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And you also mentioned earlier today that at some point, you were

7 allowed to go in and visit your husband at the primary school. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And this wasn't the only time that you actually had been allowed

11 to go in to visit him; correct?

12 A. That's correct. But I want to explain what is implied under the

13 term "visit" in my case. I could see him very briefly, and I couldn't

14 always talk to him.

15 Q. Well, I'm going to get to that. And in fact, I'm asking my

16 questions from your statement that you gave to the OTP. So I'm going to

17 give you a chance -- if I don't give you a chance to explain it, then I

18 promise you Ms. Reidy will let you explain it. Okay? So we'd established

19 that that wasn't the only time that you went in to visit your husband;

20 right? In fact, you had been allowed to see him at one point, I think, on

21 the average of once a week; right? The guards would allow you in once a

22 week?

23 A. Once again, I would like to say that these visits were not

24 permitted. It depended on the goodwill of a guard whom I knew. So at

25 that point, on his own risk, he would let me see my husband.

Page 6511

1 Q. Exactly. And that's what I'm saying. But you didn't just walk in

2 freely. Somebody had to allow you to go in. Correct?

3 A. I did not go in. It was just a visit in front of the entrance to

4 the primary school.

5 Q. So you would go to the primary school, and one of the guards you

6 knew would permit your husband to come to the front of the primary school,

7 and you would visit him; correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And this happened, on the average, once a week for some period of

10 time; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, more or less. I can't confirm that exactly, but if we

12 averaged out the number of visits and the time, yes, that was it, on

13 average.

14 Q. And this was because some of these guards you mentioned, they

15 actually had been pupils of yours at the school at one point; isn't that

16 correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And these guards that we're talking about, they also allowed you

19 to send food and to send some clean clothes to your husband; is that

20 correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. How often did that happen? How often did you send food and clean

23 clothes to your husband? How often were you allowed to do that?

24 A. We're using a term here "once a week." If this is statistically

25 the average then yes, we could work it out like that. But, in fact, I

Page 6512

1 don't know whether it was three days in a row and then no visit for ten

2 days because it wasn't possible to bring anything, and so on. So there is

3 a difference there.

4 Q. I know. And I promise I'm not trying to hold you to any set

5 number. I'm just trying to give the Trial Chamber a general idea of what

6 was going on, that's all. So thank you for that.

7 And at the primary school, there were also some - I think I'm

8 using [Realtime transcript read in error "Yugoslavia"] your words,

9 actually - "good guards," who allowed other prisoners to be visited by

10 their families; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, you could say that, that they had contact with their

12 relatives in the same way.

13 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, I think there needs to be a correction in

14 the transcript. Page 29, line 8, it says "I think I'm Yugoslavia."

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes.

16 MS. BAEN: I may have said that, but I don't remember saying

17 that.

18 I think what I said was "I'm using your words, actually," instead

19 of "Yugoslavia."

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes. The audio people will correct it with the

21 people who work on the transcripts finally.

22 MS. BAEN: All right.

23 Q. And we were talking about the good guards.

24 You lived near the primary school at that time; isn't that

25 correct?

Page 6513

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And since you lived near the primary school, you were actually

3 able to see and you knew who was guarding the prisoners; isn't that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, I could. Not always, but that was also how I found out who

6 was on duty.

7 Q. You don't like the word "always," but quite often you were aware

8 of who was guarding at the primary school; isn't that correct?

9 A. All these terms are so indefinite, and they give a stronger

10 impression, but there is actually very little behind them. There is so

11 little that one could have done on these visits, even with the good

12 guards.

13 Q. Ms. Delic, I'm sorry to hold you down. I don't mean to quibble

14 over words. And that's why so many people don't like lawyers is because

15 we do that. But I'm just trying to get a general idea of what you could

16 see and what you knew, and I promise you I'm not trying to trick you.

17 Okay?

18 So since you knew -- if you don't like the word "often," you knew

19 at some point who was guarding the primary school, and I guess I'm

20 assuming you knew when they were changing shifts, too. Sometimes you had

21 that information, didn't you?

22 A. Sometimes I knew -- yes, this solution is a little more

23 realistic. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Okay. So based on your knowledge or based on the proximity of

25 your house to the primary school and the times when you saw the guards

Page 6514

1 changing shifts, could you get an idea of --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.

3 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. Could I just intervene, because I

4 think it's not clear. The witness's answer was "sometimes I knew, yes.

5 This solution is little more realistic." It's certainly my impression

6 that she's saying that sometimes she knew. What exact meaning -- that's

7 the frequency of time she knew. But it's not clear what that information

8 was she knew. That she knew they were there? Who the guards were? Or

9 specifically, as Ms. Baen had asked, about the changing shifts. And since

10 Ms. Baen wishes to pursue this issue about changing guards, I think it's

11 important to clarify whether the witness knew sometimes who the guards

12 were or sometimes knew when the shifts or exactly what it was she knew

13 sometimes.


15 MS. BAEN: That's fine with me. She can explain -- that's fine

16 with me. I'm headed that way, but we can clear that up right now, if you

17 like.

18 Q. Ms. Delic, did you understand the Prosecutor, what she was wanting

19 you to clarify?

20 A. I didn't know exactly when the guards were changing. When I saw

21 or found out that it was possible to take something, then I would use such

22 an opportunity. And this happened occasionally.

23 Q. Could you tell me generally when these shift changes took place.

24 Were they in the middle of the afternoon? Were they late at night? Were

25 they early in the morning? Just generally.

Page 6515

1 A. I don't know when the shifts took place, the change of shifts took

2 place. I couldn't always walk around, move around, and follow things like

3 that. I couldn't even go up to the school, because that was sometimes

4 very risky.

5 Q. But what I'm asking is, obviously, you waited until one of these

6 guards you knew or these ex-pupils of yours would come on shift, because

7 then you knew it was sometimes okay to go over there to maybe visit your

8 husband. What I'm asking you, if you remember, is when this happened.

9 Was this late at night when you went to visit your husband? Was it early

10 in the morning? Was it in the middle of the afternoon? Do you remember

11 when you went to go visit your husband?

12 A. I used to go in the mornings usually, around 9.00 or 10.00 in the

13 morning, or in the afternoon at about 3.00 or 4.00.

14 Q. Okay. So -- okay. So it seems as though there were at least two

15 to three shifts? Answer if you know.

16 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, can I -- objection. Ms. Baen is now

17 making --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. --

19 MS. REIDY: -- a leap of information which is simply not a true

20 reflection of the record. Because I think the first question, the witness

21 simply testified that she went -- she said either in the morning or the

22 afternoon. She's not testified that she went at the times when guards

23 were shifted or anything like that. And because the question -- the last

24 question Ms. Baen posed was: Do you remember when you went to visit your

25 husband? Ms. Baen is now trying to imply that she always went at the same

Page 6516

1 time there was a shift change. And that's not what the witness testified.

2 I think the record reflects that. You know, so -- so again, I think that

3 the question of Ms. Baen's is misleading, and on that ground, I'd object

4 to it.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, I -- I don't think so, because the witness can

6 answer if she knows, because she says -- the question is: So it seems as

7 though there were at least two to three shifts? Answer if you know." If

8 the witness doesn't know, she can say so.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know how the guards changed

10 shifts. It wasn't something that I knew.

11 MS. BAEN:

12 Q. Okay. Thanks. The names -- what I'd like to know now is can you

13 give me the names of these pupils who helped you -- ex-pupils who helped

14 you at the primary school.

15 A. I don't know their names any more.

16 Q. Where did you teach them?

17 A. They were different generations during the course of 14 years of

18 my work. Some of them had completed school earlier. And sometimes they

19 were there once during one period. But in any case, I can't repeat their

20 names. I can't remember their names.

21 Q. How many of them were there who helped you?

22 A. It's two or three people together. Not all of them were my

23 pupils. It was two or three guards, and then -- it was the guards and

24 then two or three people who were there next to the guards who would say,

25 "Well, you can let her go." I mean, they would say something simple like

Page 6517

1 that to them.

2 Q. So these two or three people who used to be students of yours who

3 were helping you to see your husband as he was being held at the primary

4 school, you don't remember anything about them. Is that what you're

5 telling the Trial Chamber?

6 A. I didn't even try to remember their names.

7 Q. But all these pupils -- you never taught anywhere but Bosanski

8 Samac; isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes, just in Bosanski Samac.

10 Q. So hypothetically, if I showed you a yearbook with all the

11 students when you taught there, would you recognise these people who

12 helped you at the primary school?

13 A. I'm not sure that I would. They have very similar names and

14 surnames. There's different school generations.

15 Q. So you weren't -- these men were doing you a huge favour, it

16 seems, and you don't remember anything about these men who did these huge

17 favours for you?

18 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, may I --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

20 MS. REIDY: I object. The witness has said she doesn't remember

21 their names, not that she doesn't remember anything about them, as Ms.

22 Baen is trying to put it. And this is the second time she's asked this

23 question. I didn't object the first time but now she's exactly said, "you

24 didn't remember anything about them," and the witness has clearly said she

25 doesn't remember their names.

Page 6518

1 MS. BAEN: May I say something?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't agree with the objection. I don't see

3 anything wrong with pursuing the matter, as Ms. Baen is doing.

4 Ms. Baen, you can go ahead.

5 MS. BAEN: I do want to -- I don't want to intimidate this woman,

6 and I feel like -- this is what I feel like.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: No. You can go ahead. The objection is overruled.

8 You can go ahead.


10 Q. Ms. Delic, I think you have told someone before that the reason --

11 or that actually, these guards that helped you, these ex-pupils that

12 helped you, that they could have gotten in trouble -- it was your opinion

13 that they really could have gotten in serious trouble if anybody found out

14 that they were helping you. You've told someone that at some point,

15 haven't you? Did you not ever tell the OTP that when you gave your

16 statement?

17 A. Well, it's possible to assume that they would not have been in a

18 favourable position at that time.

19 Q. And it's really important that if there are some witnesses who

20 might help any of our clients in this case, if we find out about them,

21 that it's real important we find out who they are so that we are able to

22 go talk to them, investigate, and see if they should come testify before

23 the Trial Chamber, and that's why I'm asking these questions. So if you

24 in fact -- I know you say you don't remember anything about these people

25 who helped you. But if you in fact remember, there are things that we can

Page 6519

1 do to protect these people's names. You don't have to say on the Internet

2 or live in this courtroom what their names are. So bearing that in mind,

3 is your -- is your answer still the same? You don't remember anything

4 about these men whatsoever?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.

6 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, with respect, I'm happy to let Ms. Baen

7 pursue the matter about the memory of this witness and that and test in

8 that sense a credibility issue, but she simply said she's doing this in

9 order to investigate her client's case, not to question this witness on

10 the testimony she's given here or to pursue matters, to find out if

11 there's a witness for her client. She's taking instructions from her

12 client. And I just think this is somehow inappropriate in

13 cross-examination, where she's asking for the names for a purpose, it

14 seems, beyond testing the testimony she's given here in court today.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me take it up.

16 Witness, the point the Defence counsel is trying to get at is

17 this: If you know the names of these persons who were helping you, who

18 allowed you to see your husband during the time that he was in detention,

19 but you feel that if you disclose their names, they may be in trouble with

20 the authorities because that could be -- that conduct would be seen as

21 betrayal on their part, you can have their names written on a piece of

22 paper, and that piece of paper can be passed to the Defence counsel and

23 the Prosecution counsel and to the Bench, and that piece of paper will not

24 be produced on public records. It can be on the Trial Chamber's record,

25 under seal. And the orders on documents which are under seal is that

Page 6520

1 nobody should disclose the contents of those documents to anybody outside

2 this courtroom without the authority of the Trial Chamber. So they can be

3 protected. We've had those procedures, you know, done before in -- with

4 regard to other witnesses and other persons, the names who have to be

5 protected.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could give several names of people

7 who took part in this. Whether they were my pupils or not is probably

8 something that can be established later. There is no need for me to

9 protect them especially. These people didn't do anything bad by

10 permitting a bag with two or three sandwiches or a bag with some fresh

11 clothes to go through.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. Maybe we can -- yes, we can take our break,

13 as usual, and resume our proceedings at 16.15 hours.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Baen.

17 MS. BAEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Ms. Delic, we left off, and I believe you told the Trial Chamber

19 or Judge Mumba, you said you could give several names of people who took

20 part in this. Whether they were your pupils or not, to be established

21 later.

22 Okay. Do you want to go ahead and provide those names now? Would

23 you do that for the Trial Chamber?

24 A. I could give you two names, for instance. At this moment, I

25 recall the name -- last name only vaguely. The name is Misa, and he's the

Page 6521

1 son of Pero Sargija from Samac, and the other man is -- and the last name

2 of that man is Bogdanovic. And another person is Veselin Zugic. I also

3 wish to point out that they did not always serve as guards on that spot,

4 but they were able to help me. And I didn't know all the guards, but on

5 those occasions, they helped me get some stuff inside.

6 Q. Okay. And these people, the names you just mentioned, were these

7 the people who were your ex-students, or were these the other people who

8 were guarding who were not your students?

9 A. Misa was a former student of mine. Veselin used to be a

10 colleague of my husband's.

11 Q. Okay. And you just mentioned that sometimes these people were

12 guards and at other times they weren't serving as guards but they helped

13 you; right?

14 A. They had friends and acquaintances who had access to the guards.

15 I don't know why they happened to be there on the spot, but they managed

16 to put this bag of sandwiches into the guard's hand.

17 Q. Okay. You testified just a little bit ago before the break - page

18 33, line 22, for purposes of the record - "It's two or three people

19 together. Not all of them were my pupils. It was two or three guards,

20 and then it was the guards, and then two or three people who were there

21 next to the guards who would say, 'Well, you can let her go. I mean, they

22 would say something simple like that to them.'"

23 Do you remember the names of any of these other people who

24 helped -- these other people you mentioned?

25 A. Oh, no. I didn't even know those people. I can't remember their

Page 6522

1 names. I must say that they all had the same kind of uniform, and at that

2 time, I was not able to distinguish who was a guard and who was not. The

3 only thing that mattered to me was which one of them displayed enough

4 goodwill.

5 Q. Of course. Okay. I'm almost done, but I have just a few more

6 detailed questions about these people working at the primary school.

7 These several people who helped you, some of the ones you mentioned, and

8 these other ones who had uniforms on, when they helped you, was it always

9 the same group together helping you, or were there different combinations

10 of them there at different times?

11 A. Of course there were different people. I didn't know them. But I

12 contacted the wives of other detainees who would sometimes tell me, "Give

13 me your stuff, and I'll get it inside. I happen to know the guard." So

14 those were just attempts with -- without any guarantee of success. It was

15 not a regular transaction.

16 Q. Ms. Delic, maybe my question was just confusing. What I'm trying

17 to get at is all the people you mentioned, your ex-students, and then

18 these other people who worked as guards, all the people you mentioned who

19 helped you see your husband or get food through to your husband or clothes

20 through to your husband, did all those people who helped you, were they

21 always working there together at the same time when you went to visit, or

22 were they changed up different times you went to visit? Was it maybe one

23 of that group of people you mentioned -- different combinations, is what

24 I'm trying to find out. Or were they always the same people at the same

25 time?

Page 6523

1 A. Different people in different combinations. It was not one and

2 the same group all the time.

3 Q. Okay. One more thing. When you and I first started talking here,

4 these "good guards" who helped the other families that you were talking

5 about just a second ago, these were different guards from the ones who

6 helped you, some of them, or were they all the same guards? In other

7 words, were there some different guards who didn't help you who you

8 learned helped these other families who went to the primary school?

9 A. It didn't happen that way. You could either get something through

10 or not, regardless of who was bringing it.

11 Q. I must have asked another confusing question. What I'm trying to

12 find out -- you mentioned all these people who helped you on different

13 occasions. Earlier, you mentioned that there were some other families who

14 were also helped at the primary school. Were these families helped by the

15 same people who helped you, or were there some other guards who were

16 different guards who helped those other families? Or if you don't know,

17 you don't know.

18 A. I'm not sure I can give you a for-sure answer to that question. I

19 can't say that the people who helped me didn't help others, or the other

20 way around, that they were unwilling to help me and were able to do

21 something for someone else.

22 Q. Well, let me try it one more time. When you talked to these other

23 people who went to visit their families or were helped at the primary

24 school, did they give you the names, or did you hear about -- from them,

25 did you hear about other guards who had helped them at the school? In

Page 6524

1 addition to the people who helped you, were there people who helped these

2 other families?

3 A. You can put it that way, too. If I may add to my previous answer

4 an illustration of a successful contact of that kind: At one point,

5 having spotted a good moment, I headed for the primary school, and I took

6 the children with me on that day because I thought it might be possible

7 for them to see their father. I don't know that guard. He's originally

8 from one of the surrounding villages. But at that moment, I was allowed

9 to approach the primary school.

10 Q. Does this have to do with the names of the guards? I'm sorry to

11 interrupt you. Does this have to do with the names of the guards? Okay.

12 What was the name of the guard? I know about this in your statement, and

13 we can go on and on about that, but right now what I want to know about is

14 just the names of the guards. And I promise you, if you want to go on

15 with this on direct examination, you can do that. But this is my last

16 question, and I'm going to sit down and leave you alone. Is this a name

17 of another guard that you didn't tell me about who helped you?

18 A. In this case, I'm talking about an attempt which was aborted

19 because another person prevented it. But the guard in question had

20 displayed his goodwill.

21 Q. And what was that guard's name who showed the goodwill?

22 A. The name of the guard, I don't know it. Sorry.

23 MS. BAEN: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

24 Thank you, Ms. Delic.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. The next counsel. Mr. Krgovic.

Page 6525

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Delic. My name is Dragan

3 Krgovic. I'm an attorney at law. And I was appointed by this Court as

4 Defence counsel for Mr. Tadic. Before starting my cross-examination, I

5 wish to say something that I was authorised to say by my client, namely,

6 that he is deeply sorry for all that you and your family, specifically

7 your husband, your brother, and your sister-in-law, had to endure. He

8 knows that you were his former colleague at school. He knew your

9 brother-in-law, and he is -- he regrets everything you had to endure in

10 Bosanski Samac.

11 A. Does that mean that he recognises that it was indeed so terrible,

12 that it was real torture?

13 Q. He only wishes to express his regret over everything that had

14 happened.

15 A. Thank you very much.

16 Q. In your statement and in your testimony, you said that before the

17 outbreak of the conflict in Bosanski Samac, there was a municipal

18 conference of the Red Cross. That was the official name of the Red Cross

19 organisation at the time which existed even before the outbreak of the

20 conflict. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know that in November 1991, a large exchange took place in

23 the territory of Bosanski Samac between the Republic of Croatia and the

24 Republic of Yugoslavia?

25 A. I am familiar with that event.

Page 6526

1 Q. Do you know that the Red Cross of Bosanski Samac was involved in

2 that exchange and in the later accommodation of people who had then

3 arrived into the territory of Bosanski Samac, and in the departure of

4 those who were leaving the place?

5 A. I'm not sure we are speaking about the same event. Maybe I have

6 something different in mind. But if we are talking about the same thing,

7 what I know is that at one point in the secondary school building, namely

8 in the gym, a large number of people was housed, people who had come from

9 Vukovar, and were put up on the school premises for the time being.

10 Q. The local population and the Red Cross organisation, I suppose,

11 helped out in this endeavour?

12 A. I don't know the details. I know that they would spend a certain

13 number of hours there, and it would have been logical for people to

14 participate in helping.

15 Q. You mentioned that on the first day of the outbreak of the

16 conflict in Bosanski Samac, bread and milk were distributed during the

17 first days while the shops were closed; is that correct?

18 A. That's correct. During the first days, these products were

19 distributed to people -- at least, the people who I knew, people from my

20 street.

21 Q. Do you know that this distribution was organised by

22 neighbourhoods?

23 A. I don't know. I don't know how it was organised.

24 Q. Do you know that all the citizens of Bosanski Samac profited from

25 this distribution, regardless of their ethnicity?

Page 6527

1 A. I know that I myself was able to get this bread and milk during

2 the first two days. Those were the only two products that were

3 distributed. Otherwise, I couldn't get hold of them in any other way.

4 Q. Do you know that people who were of poor financial status received

5 allowances or some sort of assistance in aid, in food?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Do you know that your husband's father, Hasan Delic, received some

8 sort of aid?

9 A. During my stay in Bosanski Samac, he didn't.

10 Q. Mrs. Delic, the offices of the Red Cross were in the home for

11 retired people.

12 A. That's correct. The new building.

13 Q. I have to wait a little for the interpreters so they can catch

14 up. You and I speak the same language and understand each other very

15 well.

16 Outside that building, there was a flag of the Red Cross flying.

17 A. I can't remember now, but it would have been logical for it to be

18 there. I don't know if it was there the whole time.

19 Q. On the ground floor, there were rooms where there were people

20 dealing with the work obligation.

21 A. I don't know any such details. I don't know what happened on the

22 ground floor.

23 Q. And upstairs, there was the office where you would find Mr.

24 Tadic?

25 A. Correct.

Page 6528

1 Q. Do you know that this office where Miroslav Tadic sat belonged to

2 the civilian defence and that Mr. Miroslav Tadic was employed by the

3 civilian defence?

4 A. I wasn't aware of that.

5 Q. Do you know that Mastic, Velimir -- Velimir Mastic was involved in

6 the work of the Red Cross?

7 A. I suppose I know this man --

8 Q. I'll try to help you. He used to be the director of the centre

9 for social work.

10 A. Yes. I do know him.

11 Q. How about Anka Jovanovic?

12 A. I knew her, too.

13 Q. Dusanka Petrovic?

14 A. I can't recall at the moment. I can't recall that I knew her.

15 Q. These people that you knew, did they first work in the centre for

16 social work and then transfer to the Red Cross?

17 A. Anka Jovanovic and Velimir did indeed.

18 Q. Do you know that Husein Mustafic worked in the Red Cross of

19 Bosanski Samac?

20 A. I can't really place that name at this moment.

21 Q. How about Zijad Pelesevic, only if you know him.

22 A. I don't know any Zijad Pelesevic.

23 Q. Bahrain -- Baknia Abdebegovic [phoen], did he work at Mebos?

24 A. I'm not sure. I cannot recognise the name.

25 Q. Suhra Porobic?

Page 6529

1 A. I know she's in Bosanski Samac.

2 Q. Was she involved with the Red Cross?

3 A. I don't know about that. I knew her as a worker of the Sit

4 company.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name, the last

6 name.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness -- or is it counsel? The

8 interpreter said they didn't hear the last name.

9 MR. KRGOVIC: Barjaktarevic, Husein.

10 Q. Husein Barjaktarevic?

11 A. It doesn't ring a bell.

12 Q. Mustafa Pistoljevic, nicknamed "Dzigara"?

13 A. I know that he lived in Bosanski Samac. I don't know him.

14 Q. Did he work at the Red Cross?

15 A. I don't know that.

16 Q. Mustafa Omeranovic?

17 A. All these people you are mentioning, I don't know whether they

18 were involved with the Red Cross, whether they worked there. I don't know

19 about it at all.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show this witness

21 document P50 ter, with the assistance of the usher. It was discussed in

22 the direct examination of this witness.

23 Q. Mrs. Delic, do you see the stamp? It's document P50 ter. Do you

24 see the stamp in the bottom right-hand corner?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6530

1 Q. Can you read here what it says in the Latin alphabet?

2 A. I can, but --

3 Q. If you want me to, I can help you. Shall I read it and then you

4 can follow me?

5 A. Yes, go ahead?

6 Q. "The Red Cross of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the municipality

7 conference of Bosanski Samac."

8 I am right?

9 A. Yes, I assume that that's what it says.

10 Q. And there is the logo of the Red Cross and also the stamp. And

11 then on the other side -- well, it's written in the Latin alphabet. Can

12 you read that? It's on the same stamp, just different alphabet.

13 A. Yes. I believe you when you say that that's what it says.

14 Q. And then the writing on the other side of the seal looks like it's

15 in Cyrillic, in the Cyrillic alphabet. But I think that it says the same

16 thing.

17 A. The stamp is not very clear, but you probably know what it says on

18 the seal.

19 Q. Well, I can recognise the letters, and I think it is Cyrillic

20 writing, so I just want you to confirm that.

21 A. Yes. I read the Cyrillic as well.

22 Q. Could you tell me whether it was usual before the outbreak of the

23 conflict that all stamps of official institutions have both Cyrillic and

24 Latin alphabets?

25 A. Yes, it was usual.

Page 6531

1 Q. Let's just go back for a second. The names that I mentioned that

2 I read out to you, so based on the names and the last names, were

3 they people of Muslim ethnicity?

4 A. Yes, they were people of Muslim ethnicity.

5 Q. Thank you. I no longer need this document.

6 A. May I say something, please? Is this an old stamp then, before

7 the establishment of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac.

8 Q. Well, if I may tell you, this is your document, the document from

9 the exchange of the 24th of September. And it's on all documents, because

10 that was the only seal that was exist -- in existence. So even after that

11 period, the Red Cross did not change its status.

12 A. Well, I am not familiar with this reorganization.

13 Q. Well, you may return this document. We don't need it any more.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

15 MS. REIDY: May I make an intervention just for the purpose of the

16 transcript? It was recorded that the document was from the exchange of

17 the 24th [as interpreted] of September. Now, I'm not sure whether that's

18 what counsel said, whether he said the 4th and it was translated as the

19 24th. But perhaps he could clarify just what he means, because I -- I

20 think he meant the 4th. The transcript should talk about the 4th.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's the 4th of September,

22 1992.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mrs. Delic, we're going back to the topic now of your meeting with

Page 6532












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6533

1 Miroslav Tadic. You mentioned that you saw him in your neighbour's yard.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You met Miroslav Tadic by accident then.

4 A. Yes. He came by at a favourable moment for me.

5 Q. He was at your neighbour's house. Do you know that your

6 neighbour's son worked at his cafe as a waiter?

7 A. No. I don't know. I didn't know that.

8 Q. Well, since you said that it was just a coincidental meeting, you

9 don't need to answer, then, this following question.

10 You then mentioned that there was a conversation about a

11 confiscated vehicle, when Mr. Tadic said that this was a normal occurrence

12 in such circumstances. Did Mr. Tadic say that his car also was mobilised

13 by the authorities, it was requisitioned?

14 A. No, I don't remember him discussing that.

15 Q. On that occasion, you also talked about the possibility that your

16 things might be taken away from you, and you were talking about your

17 safety. Do you remember if Miroslav Tadic offered you that if you feel

18 that something unpleasant might happen to you, that you could go to his

19 house and be with his wife, together with your children, in view of the

20 fact that his wife was home all the time?

21 A. I don't remember him saying anything like that.

22 Q. Now we're moving to another topic, and that's your visit to the

23 Red Cross, when you found out that you and your husband were going to be

24 exchanged. You mentioned that Miroslav Tadic told you that you were

25 allowed to take only 200 German marks with you when you went on this

Page 6534

1 exchange.

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. I'm going to read a part of your statement now which you gave to

4 the Prosecution. It's a statement of the 6th and 7th of April, 1995. Do

5 you remember giving a statement then?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. On the last page, when you -- of the statement, when you were

8 describing your arrival to Bosanska Gradiska and when you were waiting,

9 you stated the following. I am reading: "The soldiers there wanted to

10 search us, but the guards didn't allow them to do that." Do you remember

11 stating that?

12 A. Yes, I do. I don't know whether it states "guards," but it's

13 actually the people who were accompanying the buses from -- the people

14 from the Red Cross who were accompanying the buses.

15 Q. Did Miroslav Tadic tell you that you might be searched en route

16 and that your money might be taken away?

17 A. No, he didn't. He didn't say anything like that.

18 Q. Did you understand this warning from Mr. Tadic to -- as a friendly

19 warning and that perhaps he wanted you to conceal this money?

20 A. I couldn't say that, because during that time, the money that I

21 had left that remained in Bosanski Samac had disappeared. My mother

22 remained in Bosanski Samac after I left. Other families, they also had no

23 means to live on.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness be

25 shown document D3/3 ter. I apologise, D5/3 ter.

Page 6535

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. D5/3 ter, yes.

2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Have you looked at the list -- have you seen this list before?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Could you please tell me, this stamp in the bottom right corner,

6 can you see it? It's a little more legible. Can you read it more easily

7 than the previous one that I showed you? Can you see what it says on the

8 seal?

9 A. It's the same stamp, like on the previous document. It's the old

10 stamp, I guess the one that was used, because you probably didn't have

11 another one.

12 Q. Do you know Dragan Lukac?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. Can you find whether his name is on the list or not?

15 A. Yes. It's under number 25. The number is not fully legible.

16 Q. Well, it's in between number 24 and number 26, so it should be

17 number 25; isn't that right?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Was he in the bus with you? Was he in that exchange with you, if

20 you are able to remember?

21 A. At this point, I can't say. I don't know.

22 Q. Do you see on that list the name of your husband?

23 A. His name -- my husband's name is under number 20.

24 Q. Was he in the bus with you?

25 A. Yes, he was on the bus with us.

Page 6536

1 Q. And then he crossed to the other side.

2 A. Yes, that's true.

3 Q. Do you know Muhamed Bicic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you see whether he's on the list?

6 A. Yes. He's right behind number 20, under number 21.

7 Q. Was he with you in the bus?

8 A. Yes, he was on the bus with us.

9 Q. Was -- did he cross to the other side together with you?

10 A. Yes, he did.

11 Q. Do you know Stipo Vukovic?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know Alojzije Balogh?

14 A. Yes, I know Alojzije Balogh.

15 Q. Was he on the bus with you?

16 A. Yes, he was on the bus.

17 Q. Did he cross with you to the other side?

18 A. No. He was at Dragalici, but he remained on the bus.

19 Q. Do you know Mladen Borbeli?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Is he on this list?

22 A. He's under number 6.

23 Q. Was he with you on the bus?

24 A. Yes, he was.

25 Q. Did he cross to the other side together with you?

Page 6537

1 A. I don't remember about him. You're probably talking about people

2 who did not cross to the other side. But I don't remember his face

3 specifically.

4 Q. If I understood you properly, that means that there were some

5 people who arrived for the exchange but they refused to cross to the other

6 side. Is this true?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Did anybody ask you whether you wanted to cross to the other side

9 while you were leaving the bus? If you remember.

10 A. No, I don't remember. I assumed that this was organised in that

11 way, but I don't remember anybody asking me that question.

12 Q. Can you tell me whether during the exchange in Dragalici, there

13 were representatives of the International Red Cross, the OSC, or any other

14 officials from European humanitarian organisations?

15 A. I don't remember whether there were any such representatives on

16 the place where the exchange took place, but I know that on the bus, en

17 route, in the so-called pink zone, there were some UN vehicles and that

18 there were some soldiers there in blue uniforms.

19 Q. Mrs. Delic, do you feel that Miroslav Tadic helped you and your

20 family to be exchanged, that he helped you and your husband? Did you

21 believe that then or do you believe that now, in view of the fact that you

22 knew him and that you addressed him several times before you went to the

23 exchange?

24 A. I don't know whether he helped personally, but I know that he did

25 take part in the so-called negotiations regarding the exchange and that in

Page 6538

1 personal contacts, he said -- he was talking about the staff or the

2 command at Pelagicevo, that was -- he mentioned Stevan Todorovic that as

3 being one of the people who were actually holding up the exchange of

4 certain people.

5 Q. But did you have the impression that he was trying to help you?

6 A. I must say that I did accept that as help, because for me, as far

7 as I'm concerned, that is like recognition of the fact that it was

8 impossible for me to survive on that side. And he helped me in a certain

9 way to get expelled from Bosanski Samac.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the question from

11 the counsel.

12 A. And I did find a way out of that situation. I saved my life.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: The last question before the last answer was not

14 picked by the interpreters. If you can check the transcript.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Because of the transcript, we will

16 have to repeat this.

17 Q. This engagement, this effort from Mr. Tadic, did you feel that

18 this was done out of good intentions towards you?

19 A. Since he was a member of the Red Cross at the time, I considered

20 that to be a normal thing to do.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, any other counsel.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, if there's any danger of us

24 finishing before 6.00, I think we better be informed now because I haven't

25 got the next witness ready to go. I spoke to my colleague, Ms. Reidy, and

Page 6539

1 our best estimate was -- and she spoke to Defence counsel and our best

2 estimate was there was no way we were going to finish with this witness

3 before 6.00, and on that basis I don't have the next witness ready.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: You see, Mr. Di Fazio, in these proceedings, it's

5 difficult most of the time to predict at what time the proceedings with a

6 particular witness will come to an end, because although sometimes

7 indications are given as to how long the cross-examination will take, we

8 tend to go over that.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. The witness is on standby, and he's at the

10 end of a telephone line. I've made arrangements for that. He's not just

11 at loose, so to speak. And I can get him here. But if counsel can

12 indicate if they are going to be finished in ten minutes' time, I'd

13 appreciate it so I can leave the courtroom and make arrangements to get

14 him in.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Yes, Mr. -- which one is

16 cross-examining?

17 Mr. Pisarevic. How long do you think you will need for

18 cross-examination?

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I need three

20 minutes.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. And Mr. Pantelic, are you going to

22 cross-examine?

23 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Are you going to cross-examine?

25 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I will.

Page 6540

1 JUDGE MUMBA: How much time do you think you will need?

2 MR. PANTELIC: If everything would be, you know, smoothly, without

3 so many objections and, you know, the explanations, then I would say that

4 I can finish until 6.00. Thank you so much.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: How much time?

6 MR. PANTELIC: Until 6.00 this afternoon.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Mr. Pantelic, you're very cooperative.

8 Mr. Pisarevic, please go ahead

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Delic. I have only one

12 question for you. But before I actually put it, I wish on behalf of my

13 client, Mr. Simo Zaric, to express our regret for all that you and your

14 family had to endure throughout the events in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The

15 question that I want to put to you relates to the event when you were

16 harassed by one member of the Serbian army, Stojan Blagojevic.

17 When I spoke to my client about this event, he told me that

18 everything happened exactly the way you described it, as far as his

19 encounter with you is concerned. I also found out that my client was

20 informed of the incident by your father-in-law, Hasan Delic. So can you

21 please confirm, if you know, the fact that it was your father-in-law,

22 Hasan Delic, who informed Simo Zaric of this incident and asked him to

23 help you in some way?

24 A. Simo Zaric came by that evening, and my father-in-law, Hasan

25 Delic, came together with him because he would often stay the night with

Page 6541

1 me and the children. I don't know whether he found out from my

2 father-in-law on the way to my home or he had found out even earlier, but

3 in any case, I understood that it was not from Miroslav Tadic that he

4 learned about it.

5 Q. We'll come later to what exactly it means. But I wanted you -- to

6 hear from you that he came that evening together with your father-in-law.

7 Does it mean really that Simo Zaric came that evening to your house

8 together with your father-in-law?

9 A. Yes, that's true. But I thought of it as a coincidence, as a pure

10 coincidence. I was expecting my father-in-law to come at that time.

11 Q. But if I understood you correctly, you have no way of knowing

12 whether it was a matter of coincidence or agreement between them.

13 A. I can't answer that one.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] No more questions.


16 Mr. Pantelic.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Delic.

19 A. Good afternoon.

20 Q. I know you have been through some very difficult moments, but you

21 will agree with me that it was the common fate of all the inhabitants of

22 your town during the war.

23 A. I wouldn't agree with you. I don't think we all had to go through

24 the same things. We all fared more or less badly, but not the same.

25 Q. Mrs. Delic, on the 7th and 6th of April, 1995, you gave a

Page 6542

1 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Also, on the 28th of May, 1998, you gave another statement to the

4 OTP.

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. You gave those statements without coercion, of your own free will,

7 against no promises from the Office of the Prosecutor; is that correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Before 1995, did you give any other statements relating to the

10 events in Samac to the police or any other authorities?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And how about after 1995, except for this 1998 statement? Did you

13 give any more statements to any authorities regarding the events in Samac?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. You and your family have residence now in one of the countries of

16 Western Europe.

17 A. Outside Bosnia and Herzegovina, at any rate.

18 Q. When you arrived in that country and when you were dealing with

19 the immigration formalities, did you talk about your past in Samac and

20 what your family had to go through?

21 A. That was not necessary. I got out with the help of my friends

22 and -- using my personal contacts.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, in order to facilitate these

24 proceedings, I kindly ask your permission that these two statements of

25 this witness would be put in front of her so that we can go through

Page 6543

1 certain portion.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes. Go ahead.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

4 Mr. Usher, can I have your assistance, please.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: You have the Serbo-Croat?


7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And when you were dealing with a particular

8 paragraph, please direct us to the English version paragraph.

9 MR. PANTELIC: For the benefit of my learned friends from the

10 Prosecution, I will go through this B/C/S version, although it is not

11 consistent with the English version, but it will be chronologically, so

12 you can easily follow -- follow the events. Actually, we would speak

13 about events, so ...

14 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So which statement are you starting

15 with?

16 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I will start with statement of 6th and 7th

17 April, 1995.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

19 MR. PANTELIC: First page of B/C/S version. The -- there is no

20 paging on this statement, but there is ERN number, and the last two digits

21 are 64 in B/C/S version.

22 Accordingly, in English version, it's second page, the last

23 paragraph. And then we can go on.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Delic, to facilitate this procedure, if you

25 don't mind, I will read, and you just listen carefully and confirm if I am

Page 6544

1 reading this correctly and if that was indeed what you said when you gave

2 the statement. Is that all right?

3 A. That's all right.

4 Q. Mrs. Delic, you signed those two statements. And you were warned

5 by the investigators that the statements may be used in these proceedings

6 and that this represents your truthful statement?

7 A. Correct.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

9 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, could I ask Mr. Pantelic to clarify

10 whether he has a version of the statement -- the second statement, because

11 he did talk about the two statements, the one from 1998, in front of him

12 with her signature on it, because certainly the version I have and I

13 understand the version was disclosed was an unsigned statement. The first

14 one was signed, but not the second one.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. We are dealing with first one, the 1995 one.

16 Can we deal with that first. And then if he's going to refer to the other

17 statement, then we'll -- you can raise the matter.

18 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pantelic, I just want to confirm with you that

19 this B/C/S version of the statement, you mean it has no page numbers and

20 it has no paragraphs?

21 MR. PANTELIC: The B/C/S version has more pages than English

22 version.

23 JUDGE SINGH: No, no. Are there numbered paragraphs?

24 MR. PANTELIC: No, no. In B/C/S version, no.

25 JUDGE SINGH: Are there page numbers?

Page 6545

1 MR. PANTELIC: Page numbers, also. But there are ERN numbers. So

2 we can go through the ERN numbers.

3 JUDGE SINGH: So no page numbers.

4 MR. PANTELIC: No page numbers in my copy.

5 MS. REIDY: I'm sorry, Your Honour -- well, Mr. Pantelic, perhaps

6 I could just direct your attention to the bottom right-hand corner, and I

7 think you'll see a number 2 at the bottom of the same page. It has your

8 ERN number ending in 64 and -- et cetera.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, probably. But due to the fact that there is

10 voluminous material, probably my learned friends during the copies made

11 wrong position of the page. So in my copy, actually, I don't have page

12 numbers.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We can go by the ERN number.

14 MR. PANTELIC: We can go through ERN number, and then it will be

15 easier.

16 Q. [Interpretation] In that statement, in the one paragraph before

17 last of the page you are looking at, the first -- the last two numbers in

18 the upper right-hand corner are "64." You stated the following:

19 "In the beginning of 1992, there was a referendum about Bosnia

20 staying within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. All the Serbs

21 participated in this referendum, voting for Bosnia to stay in the Federal

22 Republic of Yugoslavia. A small number of Muslims participated and almost

23 no Croats. The Muslims who took part in the referendum voted for the most

24 part for or in favour of Bosnia staying within Yugoslavia. I think they

25 did so because they believed that was the only way they could survive as a

Page 6546

1 nation."

2 You did state that. Can you confirm?

3 A. That's what it says.

4 Q. This atmosphere reigning in Samac from January to April 1992, you

5 will agree with me that it created among the population of Samac a certain

6 feeling of insecurity because national rifts started to occur along ethnic

7 lines, along three ethnic lines, among the constituent nations.

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, interpreters.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Will you please be so kind as to turn the next

11 page with the last two digits "65." We are reading paragraph 3.

12 "From speaking to my students, I found out that the general

13 situation in the Croat and Serb villages had become rather tense and that

14 the people in those villages started to guard the villages. I learned

15 that some of my students also participated in this. Boys of 18 or

16 slightly older sometimes stayed away from school, missed classes. Other

17 students would tell me that they had been on night shifts as guards. I

18 remember that one of my students, Marko, was absent for this reason."

19 We are moving on to paragraph 4.

20 "The students told me that the situation between the villages was

21 tense and insecure. They told me that their parents did not allow them to

22 go out after dark because of several shooting incidents that had happened

23 in the villages on several occasions. In the villages, the political

24 tension was worse than in the town. Some of the children stopped coming

25 to school altogether. Some classes had to be cancelled. When I asked the

Page 6547

1 parents why the children were not coming, they explained it was for

2 reasons of safety."

3 Mrs. Delic, you stand by this statement, don't you?

4 A. That's how I described it at that moment.

5 Q. And that was true of all your students: Croats, Muslims, and Serbs

6 equally; is that correct?

7 A. I mentioned here that the students in question were those who came

8 from villages. I said that I had noticed that the situation in Croat and

9 Serb villages had become rather tense and that -- and then I continued

10 with the explanation that I got from my students who came from these

11 villages.

12 Q. But we can easily agree, can't we, that there were Muslim and

13 Croat students in Serb villages?

14 A. I don't know about Muslim students. I know that there were no

15 Muslim villages around Samac and the strict environs of Samac comprises

16 Croat and Serb villages only. But at any rate, it was about these

17 particular students that I spoke in this paragraph.

18 Q. Would you please be kind enough and listen to my question. I

19 didn't ask you about the structure of the villages. I asked you very

20 clearly whether the Serb and Croat villages also had Muslim families or

21 students. Yes or no, or you don't know?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Thank you. Now we are moving to the third paragraph from the

24 bottom on the same page, the middle of that paragraph.

25 "Some students also left the area with their families, who already

Page 6548

1 at this time foresaw the war and decided to go abroad. On the other hand,

2 new pupils arrived. They were refugees who had fled the war in Croatia.

3 Most of them were Serbs from Vukovar."

4 Mrs. Delic, can we agree in view of the fact that you are an

5 educated woman, you're a teacher, that in an atmosphere or war and the

6 threat of war, one of the defence mechanisms of each individual is to

7 protect themselves and their family. And one of the ways to do that also

8 is to leave that territory and to go to a safer place. Isn't that true?

9 A. I was not of that opinion, and I stayed in Bosanski Samac until

10 the end, in that situation, because I felt that if I was not connected

11 with the activities of parties of that kind or with legal or illegal

12 groups which created such a situation and such an atmosphere, that I

13 should have nothing to fear and that I could stay in that town.

14 Unfortunately, that is what I thought, and I stayed until the end in that

15 period in Samac.

16 Q. Well, let's still go back to my question. Can we agree that

17 certain individuals in order to save themselves and their family and in

18 order to leave an uncertain, insecure area decided to go abroad; yes or

19 no?

20 A. Yes, this happened, of course.

21 Q. Thank you. The second question which arises from this part of

22 your statement is as follows: You confirmed while my colleague was

23 cross-examining you, that there were also some Serb refugees, and you've

24 also said that just now. Do you have any knowledge about the fact that in

25 the period from January to June 1992, several thousand Serbian villagers,

Page 6549

1 people from the surrounding settlements where power was taken over by

2 Croats, left those areas and came to Samac as refugees? Do you know that?

3 A. I don't know that because in such a large number of people, it

4 would be possible to see that. I was simply describing the situation

5 where children from -- or youth from the villages of Dubica and Novi Grad

6 at the time came to school from Crkvine or from the neighbouring villages

7 from that area, and that is why I talked to them about how and why they

8 ended up being there.

9 Q. Mrs. Delic, if I may assist in this procedure and if I may assist

10 the Trial Chamber, the surrounding villages, Novi Grad, Odzak, Prud, these

11 are all villages in the environs of Samac, populated by, among other,

12 Serbian citizens; yes or no?

13 A. Prud was mostly inhabited by Croats.

14 Q. Were there any Serbs?

15 A. Probably. As many as there were Croats in Serbian villages. It

16 wasn't possible to make a precise division. It wasn't easy to do that.

17 So I don't know the exact figures, and I wouldn't even go into anything

18 like that.

19 In this particular case, it's probably true that there were Serbs

20 in Croat villages and that there were Croats in Serb villages. But

21 everybody knew more or less what was the majority population of any

22 particular village.

23 Q. Mrs. Delic, let's be very clear. I am asking very clear

24 questions. Could you please give me more clear -- clearer answers.

25 The first question is as follows: Were there any Serbian citizens

Page 6550

1 in the region of the village of Dubica?

2 A. Just one moment. I -- the structure of the village of Dubica or

3 any villages near Dubica or its environs is something that I don't know.

4 I just know the pupils who came to school from the village of

5 Dubica. But I didn't really pay any attention to the population structure

6 of any particular village. I didn't consider that to be very important

7 for me to know at that point, for example, what the majority population of

8 any given village was.

9 Q. I asked you to answer with a "yes" or "no." But you are

10 continuing to expand your answer. I am interested, Mrs. Delic, in the

11 minority, the Serb minority in those areas. Were there any Serb pupils in

12 your school who came from that area; yes or no?

13 A. Yes, I confirm that. There were some villages like that.

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. And I know that because of them that there were such citizens in

16 those villages.

17 Q. Were there any Serb inhabitants in the town of Odzak?

18 A. I don't know. Probably there were. I assume so. I don't

19 understand why you are asking me. This is something that is probably

20 known on the basis of research or official documents.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, just answer questions put to you by

22 counsel, because counsel is dealing with the whole indictment in this

23 case, and some of the matters contained in the indictment may appear to be

24 matters which somebody can do some research on. But just answer the

25 questions as put to you by counsel. If the questions are not proper, the

Page 6551

1 Trial Chamber will say so.

2 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. My question was: When you were in Samac, did you notice in the

4 period from January to June that there were Serb refugees, men, children,

5 women, in the town of Samac and the surrounding villages; yes, no, or I

6 don't know? It's simple.

7 A. I can give an example. In my neighbourhood, I know that there was

8 a Serb refugee from Croatia.

9 Q. I'm asking you, the neighbouring villages from Samac, do you know

10 whether there were any refugees in Samac or its environs; yes or no?

11 A. No, I don't have any information about that.

12 Q. Do you have any knowledge about Serb refugees from the region of

13 Gradacac, which is a Muslim area, specifically from the village of Srnice,

14 that Serb refugees from that region -- came to Samac in May and June of

15 1992; yes or no, or don't know?

16 A. I don't know. I didn't hear about that at that time. I don't

17 know whether anybody from that village was in Bosanski Samac.

18 Q. The paragraph before last, on the page that you have in front of

19 you, reads as follows:

20 "In the week between the 6th and 10th of April, our school was

21 closed because of the tense situation in Sarajevo and in our area. It was

22 a decision taken at a meeting between all employees in the school."

23 This is what you stated in 1995; isn't that true?

24 A. Yes, that's what it says here in the statement.

25 Q. Mrs. Delic, would you kindly turn to the page which bears the last

Page 6552

1 two numbers "67." I will read the fourth paragraph from the top. And the

2 first paragraph is just one sentence. So counting from that first

3 paragraph. It begins like this:

4 "On the third day after the attack, I went to visit my mother, who

5 lived near the primary school. My mother told me that she had seen on the

6 17th of April a group of men in camouflage uniforms, masked with ski caps.

7 They questioned all the people from the building, asking if they had any

8 information about who had set the primary school on fire."

9 That is what you stated in your statement; isn't that right?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. We would agree that those people in camouflage uniforms and with

12 the balaclavas on their heads were special units from Serbia who

13 terrorised the people; isn't that true?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. But what I'm interested in here is whether it was they who set the

16 school on fire or did somebody else set the school on fire, since they

17 were actually asking for information about who set the school on fire.

18 Could you please clarify that sentence a little bit. Who was it that set

19 the school on fire?

20 A. That thought here is expressed in such a way or is grammatically

21 formulated in such a way that you cannot notice anything but the fact that

22 they were making inquiries. So it's just an affirmation of the fact that

23 that is what they did. But there is no further explanation. I don't know

24 if there is a short passage missing here, but in any case, if I need to

25 provide more details regarding this particular piece of information, then

Page 6553

1 they simply went around making inquiries about who was it who set the

2 school on fire, which does not mean that they didn't do it themselves but

3 just that they found a reason to, as you said, abuse the people who were

4 living in that building so that they wouldn't think that it was them who

5 actually did it.

6 Q. Yes. This is an interesting theory. But could you please answer

7 this question: Is it possible that some other groups, armed groups,

8 carried out this act of sabotage and that these members of the special

9 units were looking for those who carried out that action? Is that

10 possible?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honour, it's inviting the witness to

12 speculate, and I can't understand why the -- Mr. Pantelic simply doesn't

13 ask the witness: Do you know who did it? It's simple and straight

14 forward and to the point.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Actually, I was thinking that maybe it's --

16 the problem is the language, maybe. Because when we hear "is it

17 possible," then obviously for us we conclude that you're asking the

18 witness to speculate.

19 MR. PANTELIC: No problem, Your Honours. I will ask directly.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Directly, yes.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Directly.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know who set the school on fire?

23 A. I didn't see that act, so I cannot say that I know who set the

24 school on fire. But after the explosion, the first morning after the

25 explosion, and on the third day when I saw what was happening and who

Page 6554

1 actually was in possession of the weapons, it was logical that these

2 people were securing the entrances to the city in that way and that they

3 were the same ones who set the school on fire.

4 Q. You probably have information that all three ethnic groups armed

5 themselves secretly, don't you?

6 A. The parties -- there were nationalist parties, and they probably -

7 I can't confirm this - but they probably received weapons. And it's a

8 fact that possession of weapons and the private acquisition of weapons was

9 something that was going on.

10 Q. On all three sides; isn't that true?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Excuse me. Can we look at the paragraph -- one paragraph before

13 last on the same page I am reading:

14 "On both sides of our house, our neighbours were Serbs. One day,

15 one of them told my husband that he heard from relatives in the police

16 that Serbs were looking for him. He was on a list of suspicious persons,

17 because somebody allegedly fired from our house."

18 You stated that in 1995, didn't you?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. So we can conclude that at that time -- and we're talking about

21 your family -- there was an awareness that your husband was possibly a

22 suspect because of this incident which you described. So he could have

23 been a possible suspect from the police authorities.

24 A. Well, I don't know exactly which police authorities you mean.

25 This was after the 17th of April.

Page 6555

1 Q. Yes, that's right. By the ministry of the internal affairs of

2 Republika Srpska, the police station which was headed by Stiv Todorovic.

3 That's what I meant.

4 A. Yes, then it's possible that something like that could have

5 happened.

6 Q. Thank you. We are moving now to the next paragraph.

7 "That same day, on the 22nd of May, 1992, the new Serb head of the

8 police, Stevan Todorovic, called on the phone and asked for my husband.

9 When my husband answered the phone, he was told to report to the SUP or he

10 would be picked up by the police. My husband went to the SUP

11 immediately. It was about 5 p.m. An hour later, my husband called me on

12 the phone. He told me that he would not come home and that he had to stay

13 at the SUP for a certain period of time."

14 This is what you stated; isn't that right?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Regardless of the fact that Stevan Todorovic was the chief of the

17 police, we all know that he was a criminal and that he's not a very

18 virtuous man. So please tell us, doesn't that seem logical to you if the

19 police summons somebody, they go to find out what it is all about? Is

20 there anything strange in the fact that, regardless of who is the chief of

21 police, a citizen who is summoned by the police should respond to that

22 summons? You're an educated woman. Doesn't that seem logical to you?

23 Please answer with "yes," or "no."

24 A. Well, I cannot answer with "yes" or "no" after you have yourself

25 stated that we are talking about Stevan Todorovic, who is a criminal. I

Page 6556












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6557

1 hope that you would agree with me. We're talking about a person who will

2 not stop at anything in order to become a chief of police.

3 Q. Theoretically. Let's forget Stevan Todorovic.

4 A. No. He's a very important person at this point. Also for the

5 rest of the events as they will unfold.

6 Q. The Serbian police summoned your husband because of some problem.

7 Do you think that this is logical, that this is a legal procedure for the

8 police to summon somebody to see whether they had seen anything, if

9 they're a possible witness?

10 A. Yes. Very well. I agree with that.

11 Q. Thank you. This is what I wanted to hear.

12 Could you please turn to the next page? The last two numbers on

13 that page are "68." I will read paragraph 5 on that page of your

14 statement.

15 "I didn't receive any official information regarding the arrest of

16 my husband, but through conversations with Serbs, I heard that one of the

17 reasons could possibly have been the fact that my husband's company

18 financed the purchase of weapons for Muslims and Croats. The first month

19 they told me that his company was officially being checked, audited. They

20 wanted to find out whether my husband had signed some compromising

21 documents on behalf of the Mebos company."

22 That is what you stated.

23 A. Yes, that's what I had stated.

24 Q. Mrs. Delic, in this situation - and I am quoting your statement -

25 we have a suspicion that shots were fired from your house. And then on

Page 6558

1 the other hand, there is another suspicion that your husband, through

2 certain financial transactions or operations - so this is not proved, it's

3 just a suspicion - that he financed the purchase of weapons for Muslims

4 and Croats. Should official organs, meaning the police, in your opinion

5 have the right in such a situation to call your husband to clarify the

6 situation? Does that sound logical to you?

7 A. Very well. Let's say that that it is so.

8 Q. Thank you. My next question -- it's paragraph 3, counting from

9 the bottom:

10 "Members of other ethnic groups, including women, were taken away

11 for forced labour. I was not taken away because I fell into the category

12 of women who were relieved from forced labour because of my educational

13 attainment level and the fact that I had two minor children."

14 Are you aware of the fact that women of Serb ethnicity, too, had

15 to perform work obligation during wartime?

16 A. Did you mean forced labour or work obligation?

17 Q. I mean the obligation, the work duty.

18 A. They did. It depends all on what you imply by "work obligation."

19 Was it in the same job that they used to work before the war?

20 Q. Mrs. Delic, you have graduated from the university in Sarajevo,

21 department of economics; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You must be familiar with the economic concept of wartime economy,

24 economic conditions during wartime. Was it in your curriculum during your

25 studies?

Page 6559

1 A. Of course it was.

2 Q. Perfect. Now, will you please tell me, during the war, when

3 normal routes of business and economy are disrupted, when everything is in

4 chaos, is there an obligation for everyone, regardless of gender,

5 ethnicity, or profession, to make an effort, a war effort, to deal with

6 these problems?

7 A. I was never involved in decision-making about such situations.

8 Q. No. Please, I'm asking you only hypothetically.

9 A. Hypothetically or theoretically, if we are speaking about equal

10 citizens in such a state community, yes.

11 Q. Well, then is it in keeping with the economic doctrine and a

12 certain legal system, if you know about this at all, that during the war,

13 the Ministry of Defence, in addition to its normal duties and purview,

14 should organise also the civilian life and work, things like organisation

15 of the economy, wartime turnover, communications, transactions? From what

16 you know, is this a fact? Is the Ministry of Defence during wartime

17 charged with such things as well?

18 A. Yes, that's the case.

19 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the Ministry of Defence of the

20 Republika Srpska and other competent ministries regulated the question of

21 work obligation through decrees and by establishing a certain hierarchy

22 from the supreme authorities, the government, to the local authorities?

23 A. I'm not familiar with the way it was organised under the new

24 conditions which appeared at the time, which came into being and in which

25 I had to live.

Page 6560

1 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Delic. We have finished with your statement from

2 1995. And I think that perhaps now we could move on to a different part

3 of your testimony.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Please, I would like to registrar to provide us to

5 put on the ELMO Exhibit P40, and P40 ter. It is in fact the order where

6 -- signed by head of the public safety station that it's forbidden for

7 three or more Muslim Croats to gather together in public places.

8 Q. [Interpretation] In the meantime, while the registrar is looking

9 for this document, if I remember correctly your testimony here before this

10 Court, you told us that you had seen posters and announcements placed

11 around town prohibiting assembly of non-Serbs in groups of more than two

12 or three. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You also said you had seen the signature on such orders, and the

15 signature was that of the crisis staff. Is that correct? Will you please

16 answer?

17 A. That's what I said.

18 Q. Now, please look carefully at the title of this document.

19 Legibility is poor. But this document P50 ter, the upper left-hand

20 corner. What does it say?

21 A. "Bosnia brigade, Bosanski Samac."

22 Q. Yes, please go on.

23 A. The date --

24 Q. Will you please read the number and the date.

25 A. 990/92. Date: 4th of August, 1992. "In compliance with" --

Page 6561

1 Q. No. You don't need to read that.

2 Will you please read the signature on this decision. Which

3 service? What does it say at the bottom of the page?

4 A. Legibility is not the best. I suppose it says "head of -- "

5 Q. And what does it say below?

6 A. Stevan Todorovic, at any rate.

7 Q. Mrs. Delic, we will now agree that your memory was not serving you

8 very well when you said that that order was signed by the crisis staff.

9 We now see something completely different?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I object to that question, and I'd ask the witness

11 not answer it. That's not what the witness has said at all, nor has she

12 confirmed that this particular document is the document that she saw or

13 has attested to you. That has not been established at all. That question

14 has to be asked first before it can be established that her memory is

15 faulty or that she's mistaken.

16 JUDGE SINGH: Sorry, just one correction. I think in the

17 transcript, line 14, it says "P50" the exhibit is. I think it's P40.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I think that's so, if Your Honour please. That

19 must be a mistake.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The exhibit we are dealing with is P40.

21 MR. PANTELIC: P40 ter and P40.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps if I might also add to my objection another

23 matter, that perhaps the witness's attention could be drawn to the top

24 left-hand portion of the document says "confidential."

25 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6562

1 Q. So Mrs. Delic, let me remind you of your statement. I can give

2 you a copy.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, please.

4 Q. [Interpretation] So you can ascertain whether what you stated is

5 correct.

6 Now, Mrs. Delic, in your statement of year 1995 to the OTP, page

7 69, perhaps 5, counting from the top, you said the following:

8 "The decree banning the assembly of Muslims and Croats, that is,

9 non-Serbs, was published later. This decree said that members of other

10 ethnicities may not assemble in public places and not even on their

11 balconies or verandas."

12 Did you state that to the Office of the Prosecutor in that

13 statement?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it's correct.

17 Q. Did you see this document which is now before you? Did you see it

18 in Samac when you were speaking about this ban on assembly?

19 A. This document and the signature doesn't matter to me at all at the

20 moment. What concerns me is the essence. That's what's important. It's

21 a prohibition of continued normal life within that community. It was an

22 outrage to publish something like this. Whether it was signed by this or

23 that person is --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The question hasn't been answered. The

25 question was: Did you see this document?

Page 6563

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say I had seen the same

2 document. Even this copy is not a very good one.

3 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Did you see any other document containing the same ...

5 A. With similar contents.

6 Q. So it could have been the same document.

7 A. It could have been. I can't confirm that.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ... She has said

9 that "I can't say I had seen the same document."

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the situation, I would have

11 thought, could have been remedied in such a simple way. The witness has

12 testified to having seen posters around the town with this prohibition.

13 And it says so in the statement. Why can't counsel ask the witness: Is

14 this the document you saw plastered around town? Simple.

15 MR. PANTELIC: That was my question, Your Honours. Is this a

16 document that you saw and that you described, simply as that. And I got

17 the answer that "I am not so sure." What else can I do? Maybe I can try

18 in the other way and then -- because it's 6.00, we can finish for today.

19 Q. [Interpretation] So Mrs. Delic, you are aware of the ban on

20 assembly of three or more Muslims or Croats in Samac.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you saw it somewhere around town?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When you look at this document now, is it possible that it is that

25 document that you saw posted around town?

Page 6564

1 A. What is possible is that the contents is the same as the one I

2 saw.

3 MR. PANTELIC: I think, Your Honours, I'm finished for today.

4 It's 6.00, so we can --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We shall -- how much time do you think

6 you need?

7 MR. PANTELIC: Well, Your Honour, I have several -- just virtually

8 several questions about the order for requisition of witness's personal

9 car, and then another document that I provided -- I gave it to my learned

10 friends from the Prosecution.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: So you think you need an hour?

12 MR. PANTELIC: No, no, no. I don't think so.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Less than an hour?

14 MR. PANTELIC: Less than an hour. 20 minutes maximum, 30

15 minutes.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm asking this because the Prosecution has to

17 know whether or not to bring another witness.


19 MR. PANTELIC: As far as I'm concerned, half an hour would be

20 enough.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio, the next witness who is around --

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: -- how long is he likely to be?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: My assessment is probably about the length of this

25 witness, and I would hope somewhat shorter.

Page 6565


2 MR. DI FAZIO: Somewhat shorter. But --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. In view of the fact that the witness is

4 already here, I think it's -- it's better that we go ahead with the

5 witness.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I think so. They're husband and wife.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: And then after that witness --

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: -- then we finalise our problem on Variant A and B.

10 Yes, I think so.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Because we are trying to cut down on how long the

13 witnesses remain in The Hague.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, of course.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So we'll continue tomorrow with the

17 cross-examination of the witness at 14.15 hours.

18 Tomorrow we'll have to stop our proceedings at about 17.45. We

19 would like to use the last 15 minutes for a Status Conference. We want to

20 look at the list of witnesses for the Prosecution, to see how many more

21 Prosecution witnesses we have and also to find out about the facilities

22 for Mr. Milan Simic, how well they are working, so that we can decide on

23 how we are going to use the facilities as from Monday. So we'll adjourn

24 today and continue our proceedings tomorrow at 14.15 hours.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

Page 6566

1 at 6.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

2 the 30th day of February, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.