Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6567

1 Friday, 1 March 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Milan Simic not present]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Judge Singh is away on urgent personal reasons. The

11 proceedings will continue under Rule 15 bis.

12 Mr. Pantelic was cross-examining.

13 Ms. Reidy, you have something to say.

14 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Reidy.

16 MS. REIDY: Yes, it's just simply to advise Your Honours that the

17 official translation for that list is now available, P51.


19 MS. REIDY: I've distributed a copy to the Defence, and there are

20 copies with the Legal Officer, so it is now available. And should Mr.

21 Pantelic need it, the official version is here.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Maybe we can have our copies.

23 Can we have the number formally stated, please.


25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Pantelic, you can proceed with

Page 6568

1 cross-examination.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon, Your

3 Honours.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic: [Continued]

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Delic.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Prior to continuing, I have just short intervention

9 in yesterday's transcript. During the cross-examination and certain line

10 of questioning with regard to the Exhibit P40 and P40 ter, which was on

11 the page 6560, line 21 of yesterday's session, when I asked the witness

12 about the title in this document on the left-hand upper side, she

13 responded that it's "Bosnia Brigade, Bosanski Samac." Maybe it was also

14 my misunderstanding in reading this particular document, or maybe it's

15 some kind of interpreter's error. Anyhow, I would like to clarify that,

16 because according to my knowledge, the heading of this document is

17 "Posavka [phoen] Brigade."

18 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we can have it on the ELMO.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Just as a matter of clarification. I mean, it's

20 not so big thing what is on the document. But still, in order to clarify

21 the transcript, yes.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we can have the B/C/S on the ELMO.

23 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mrs. Delic, it's a minor matter, or rather, omission. We want to

25 rectify it. Would you please be so kind as to read the heading in the top

Page 6569

1 left-hand corner of the document on the ELMO. What does it say?

2 A. It says, "Posavina Brigade, Bosanski Samac."

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. May I also add something?

5 Q. There's no need to. We have clarified this. Thank you.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, I think the issue is clarified now.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can proceed with your cross-examination.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Delic, can we agree with the assertion that

10 the institution of work obligation during wartime was within the purview

11 of the Ministry of Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina and its branch office

12 in Bosanski Samac?

13 A. I apologise, but I would really like to say something about the

14 previous point, the document with which we closed our work yesterday.

15 Q. I don't think that's possible now, but perhaps when you are

16 questioned later by the Prosecutor again, you can raise that issue. I

17 would like to come back to what I have.

18 A. I have to insist. Perhaps I should address myself to the Trial

19 Chamber.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think --

21 A. Because it was a last-minute thing.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness can go ahead and say what she

23 wants to say.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My testimony about the document

25 which was presented to me yesterday was not my final word about the

Page 6570

1 entirety of the document. My last sentence read: "I could agree with the

2 contents." That part of the testimony regarding contents has been

3 misunderstood as referring to the contents of the entire document.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you.

5 Mr. Pantelic, you can continue.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Frankly, Your Honours, I didn't understand this

7 explanation. I don't know which document we are speaking or what it is

8 about, but probably my learned friends in redirect can clarify all these

9 issues. I'm not -- I don't have any intention to go to this line of

10 questioning.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You proceed with your questions.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

13 Q. [Interpretation] So my first question was: Can we agree with the

14 assertion that during the state of war, the institution of work obligation

15 was in the purview of the Ministry of Defence of the Republika Srpska and

16 its branch office in Bosanski Samac? Yes, no, or I don't know?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. You spoke about the requisition of your husband's car, and you

19 presented us with evidence which has been admitted here as P49.

20 MR. PANTELIC: And I would like this exhibit, P49, to be put in

21 front of the witness and also on the ELMO.

22 Q. [Interpretation] In the meantime, you mentioned that a certain

23 person, a soldier, Stojan Blagojevic, came to you on a certain occasion

24 and requisitioned your car against this piece of paper; correct?

25 A. Correct.

Page 6571

1 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether this person, Stojan

2 Blagojevic, is one of suspicious character with a criminal record? Do you

3 know anything like that?

4 A. I didn't know him at all.

5 Q. After this event about -- after the requisitioning of your

6 vehicle, did you learn what kind of person Stojan Blagojevic was? Did you

7 make inquiries around town?

8 A. I did not -- I did not find out anything distinctive about his

9 character or behaviour.

10 Q. Will you please look at this document now. I think we need to

11 clarify certain points to the Trial Chamber. First of all, will we agree

12 that this word in the first paragraph, "temporary-permanent use." Have

13 you found it?

14 A. Yes, I have.

15 Q. Shall we explain to the Trial Chamber that in our practice, in the

16 practice of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in such documents and in similar

17 documents, it is usual to include two alternatives and then cross out the

18 option which does not apply to this -- to this specific case?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

20 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, with respect, I think now that

21 Mr. Pantelic himself is testifying from the bench. Because this question

22 about whether or not this could assist the Trial Chamber, on the use of

23 permanent, temporary, what it meant in the content of this document, et

24 cetera, was posed specifically in a question from the bench, and the

25 witness testified on that. Mr. Pantelic is now trying to put forward his

Page 6572

1 evidence on the record, testifying from the bench, when this has already

2 been addressed and the witness has made clear that she doesn't know

3 anything about it in the context of this document. And it was a question

4 from the bench. So I'd object to Mr. Pantelic now trying to get around

5 that.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pantelic, the objection is sustained.

7 What you can do, if you have any other instructions on the document, is to

8 bring them up during the Defence case.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. My idea was, Your Honour, just to clarify,

10 the form of the document, which might be of importance for this Trial

11 Chamber to follow. But I will proceed, of course.

12 Mr. Usher you can sit. I don't need your assistance, please.

13 Thank you.

14 Q. [Interpretation] So in the course of your experience of contacts

15 with official institutions, you would see two options in such documents,

16 and the one which stands out to be unnecessary is usually crossed out; is

17 that the case?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Can we agree that this person, Stojan Blagojevic, acted in an

20 unauthorised manner on behalf of the Crisis Staff in requisitioning your

21 vehicle?

22 A. I don't know whether he came on official business to my house or

23 he did so of his own accord.

24 Q. Did he show you his ID, his papers? Did he show you a document

25 authorising him to do anything when he came in?

Page 6573

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Will you please read the last paragraph of this document?

3 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ... Just move the

4 document on the ELMO, please, the last paragraph.

5 Q. [Interpretation] The last paragraph, please. Please read it.

6 A. "The reimbursement for temporary use of assets or requisitioned

7 and expended goods shall be calculated and payment made -- " It's

8 difficult to read, because it's partially covered by the stamp -- "after

9 the -- on the basis of authentic documentation." I can't read what's

10 under the stamp.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness says because of the stamp, she's

12 unable to read the last part. But it's a matter you can read yourself to

13 her and then you can proceed with your questions.

14 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. So "this reimbursement shall be calculated after the termination

16 of the state of war based on authentic documents," isn't that what it

17 says?

18 A. Yes. One can suppose that this is what it says, "based on

19 authentic documentation."

20 Q. You are an economist, and you are familiar with the doctrine and

21 theory of your science and profession that during a state of war, military

22 authorities may requisition certain assets, with the proviso that they

23 reimburse owners after this state of war is terminated.

24 A. I haven't read any documents of that kind. I can only assume one

25 way or another, but I can't confirm.

Page 6574

1 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that the Dayton Peace Accords

2 envisaged the return and reimbursement of property to all citizens of

3 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: That's not a question for this witness.

5 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Are you personally familiar with the fact that you have the right

7 to approach the authorities of Republika Srpska asking for compensation

8 for the use of your property?

9 A. Nobody addressed me personally on that matter.

10 Q. I think there's a misunderstanding here. It's not the authorities

11 who are supposed to contact you. I was asking, did you contact the

12 authorities with the objective of obtaining compensation, a refund, for

13 the use of your property? Did you take any steps in that direction?

14 A. Not as far as this vehicle is concerned, if we are talking about

15 the requisitioning of our personal car, of our private car.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pantelic, I wonder whether you could clarify

17 with the witness, although I believe she did mention this in

18 examination-in-chief, but maybe you could clarify once again on this issue

19 of the document in front of us saying that the claimant would have to

20 provide authentic documentation as to ownership and so on and so forth.

21 Could you clarify with the witness as to when the car was requisitioned,

22 you know, was the logbook of the car and other documentation probably to

23 do with insurance and -- you know, whatever a car owner has, were those

24 documents also taken away when the car was taken away, please.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. You are reading my mind. That

Page 6575

1 was one of my next questions. But still -- thank you.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That's giving me something extra to know that I

3 can read your mind, Mr. Pantelic.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

5 Q. [Interpretation] So if I understood you correctly, you did not

6 claim compensation for your car. Have you claimed any other type of

7 reimbursement for anything else from the authorities?

8 A. We are talking here only about the requisitioning of the car and

9 the document about that. I object to being asked questions about anything

10 else.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, this is a proper question which you should

12 answer, and please do answer it.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, Mr. Pantelic, but if you could ask

14 this witness what I suggested, and you said I was reading your mind about,

15 as to the documents re: the car, which seem to be necessary in Exhibit P49

16 ter.

17 MR. PANTELIC: I absolutely agree with you, Your Honours. But

18 still I would like to establish the personal attitude of this witness with

19 regard and towards the officials. I mean, as an order anywhere --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we can hear the interpreters chatting.

21 Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

22 MR. PANTELIC: It happens.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: You can go ahead.

24 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Could you please reply whether you had applied for restitution or

Page 6576

1 compensation of any property. Did you initiate any proceedings?

2 A. I personally did not.

3 Q. Did your husband do it?

4 A. Well, he should be the one to testify about that.

5 Q. Did you discuss or make contacts with any lawyer about initiating

6 such issues?

7 A. The property that I had in my marriage is all in my husband's

8 name, so I could not really get into any activities regarding that

9 property, because it wasn't in my name.

10 Q. Specifically about your car, did you get in contact with any

11 lawyer in Bosnia and Herzegovina, for him to make representations on your

12 behalf?

13 A. No, I did not, because for that, you required to have certain

14 documentation.

15 Q. Now, I hope that you would agree with me that the documents that

16 you need in order to do this is precisely this document that you have in

17 your possession. That is the document that you'll require; do you agree

18 with me?

19 A. I don't know these legal rules to such an extent.

20 Q. Well, these are not legal relations or rules, Mrs. Delic. When a

21 body, in this case, a municipal body of Bosanski Samac, the Crisis Staff,

22 for the needs of the state of war, et cetera, as you see at the top of the

23 document -- so if the municipal organ, which is part of the authority,

24 states that they will compensate you for the use and that at that point,

25 it was taking the car documents, the traffic permit, the car itself, and

Page 6577

1 in return was issuing you with an appropriate document, of which you

2 possess the original, that means that you, with the documents that you

3 possess or the document that you possess, could ask for the restitution or

4 the return of that vehicle or your property. Do you agree with me?

5 A. If that is so, then I do agree.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.

7 MS. REIDY: Again, Your Honour, I waited to see where Mr. Pantelic

8 would end up with this, but he's, you know -- the witness has said, "I

9 don't know these legal rules to such an extent." He then tells her, "This

10 is the case, this is it," putting his interpretation of the document on it

11 when the witness says she doesn't know the legal rules. And again, I

12 think this is an improper question. If that is an interpretation he

13 wishes to put forth for the Defence case, then he does it at the

14 appropriate time and not ask the witness who said she didn't know the

15 legal rules.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pantelic, you've understood the objection?

17 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honour pleases, may I just add something to

18 what Ms. Reidy said in this regard.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: One wonders as to the usefulness of this line of

21 cross-examination, because if the -- I'm only guessing here, of course.

22 But if the case for Dr. Blagoje Simic is that this is a forgery; it's

23 nonsense; it's a piece of paper that was produced by a thug with a gun in

24 order to steal a car. Then all of this is completely unnecessary

25 cross-examination. I just wanted to add that. It may assist Mr. Pantelic

Page 6578

1 in whether he wanted to pursue this line of cross-examination.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I would agree with you, Mr. Di Fazio. And

3 also the witness has already said that she didn't make any claims. The

4 car was registered in her husband's name. So I think maybe that is

5 sufficient for you to understand that --

6 MR. PANTELIC: I agree that it is rather a legal matter, so we can

7 discuss that in our legal submissions.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

9 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. One example, Mrs. Delic. For example, before 1992, when you were

11 changing your personal ID documents, a passport, your identify card,

12 before 1992 in Bosanski Samac, did the appropriate body issue you with a

13 kind of receipt that you had given them these documents?

14 A. I really don't remember whether they did or not.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, you can take these exhibits, please, and

16 we can proceed with the other lines.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Delic, now we will talk about the curfew

18 which you took -- regarding which topic you provided certain answers

19 during the questioning from the Prosecution. I will remind you that you

20 said that you heard on the radio that the Crisis Staff of Bosanski Samac

21 had imposed a curfew; isn't that true?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. My first question is whether you would agree with me that in a

24 state of war, police and military bodies can impose a curfew?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 6579

1 Q. In your statement, you said, amongst other thing, page transcript

2 6405, lines 21 to 24, that the curfew was imposed from 9.00 p.m. to 6.00

3 a.m., and that also there was an order to darken all the windows. Isn't

4 that right?

5 A. Yes. In any case, all the lights had to be turned off.

6 Q. So we can conclude that if there -- the reason for having to turn

7 out the lights and to darken all the windows was the fact that the town

8 was in danger of being shelled?

9 A. I'm sorry. I cannot answer with "yes" or "no." I can't give my

10 answer with just "yes" or "no."

11 Q. During your stay in Bosanski Samac, until September 1992, did you

12 perhaps hear or were present during shelling of the town, when shells were

13 falling on the town?

14 A. Of course.

15 May I add a sentence here, please?

16 Q. No.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, may I --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Let the witness add the sentence. Can the witness

19 add the sentence.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, of course. I didn't have any further

21 questions.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Go ahead. Her Honour Judge Mumba has

23 given you her permission.

24 A. Thank you. Citizens like myself, those who did not have equal

25 rights at that time and equal duties in the newly established authority in

Page 6580

1 power, were used as a sort of defence from possible shelling at that time,

2 bombing, et cetera. We were there as kinds of hostages, as shields. I

3 don't know if my opinion is perhaps wrong.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, with all due respect, if this is a

5 cross-examination, I think that I'm entitled as Defence counsel to follow

6 the principles of cross-examination, otherwise the witness will expand

7 certain stories, give personal opinions which are not related to my

8 questions.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe I'm wrong.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: If the Bench allows the witness to say what she says

12 she wants to say and it doesn't make sense to you, you simply ignore it.

13 You go ahead with your cross-examination.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It will have no consequence on your

16 cross-examination.

17 MR. PANTELIC: But maybe, Your Honour, this kind of statement will

18 put me in a situation to put another question, and then the

19 cross-examination --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. Those are not matters you have to ask

21 for permission. You know what your client's defence is. Yes, so you go

22 ahead with cross-examination which will assist your client's case. That's

23 all.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Your Honour, I would like to tender it

25 into evidence one document which was previously disclosed by one of my

Page 6581

1 colleagues to the learned friend from the Prosecution. I believe it's 98,

2 or 99, something like that. In the meantime, we obtained official

3 translation of this document, and the document is actually the order of

4 the Ministry of Interior, police station Bosanski Samac, with regard to

5 the curfew and --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: It's dated ...?

7 MR. PANTELIC: Dated 17th of April, 1992. And I hope that my

8 learned friends will confirm --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Did it have a court number? You said it was

10 disclosed.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Not yet.


13 MR. PANTELIC: So I would like for my learned friends to confirm

14 that fact.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe the usher can assist by getting the document

16 from you, Mr. Pantelic, and showing it to the Prosecution so they can

17 easily look at it.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Sure. Thank you.

19 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. For the record, I --


21 MS. REIDY: I can confirm that the Prosecution had received this

22 from Defence counsel for Mr. Simo Zaric, and we had also received an

23 English translation from Mr. Pantelic, I believe, yesterday. Thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: And what is the position of the Prosecution?

25 MS. REIDY: And we have no objection to it being entered into

Page 6582

1 evidence.


3 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be D28/1, D28/1 ter.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

5 Mr. Usher, could you please put the B/C/S version in front of --

6 yes, in front of the witness and then the English translation on the

7 ELMO. Thank you. Could you zoom it more, to see the last part where is

8 the signature?

9 Excellent. Thank you.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Delic, could you please read the heading of

11 this document in front of you.

12 A. "Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina, Bosanski Samac public security services centre. Number:

14 01-10/92. Date: 17th of April, 1992." Should I read until the end?

15 Q. No, no. This is enough.

16 Could you now read to yourself the document. You don't have to

17 read it out aloud. Just acquaint yourself with the contents of the

18 document, because I wanted to ask you some questions about it.

19 A. Excuse me.

20 Q. Have you read the document?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Very well. Could you please read who signed this document. Could

23 you please state the function of the person who signed this document.

24 A. Chief of the public security station.

25 Q. Thank you. So we will agree that this is the chief of police,

Page 6583

1 isn't it?

2 A. Yes. If that is the same thing, then very well.

3 Q. Does it state anywhere in this order, or is there a provision in

4 this order which imposes the curfew only for the non-Serb population, or

5 does this order apply to all citizens of Samac?

6 A. Did I state in my statement that this was only for non-Serb --

7 applicable only to non-Serb population.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ... Counsel has put

9 a question to you in relation to the contents of this order which you have

10 read. So just answer the question as it is put to you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. No, it's a general order

12 applicable to all citizens in order to protect the order of the Serbian

13 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The -- no particular ethnicity is

14 being singled out.

15 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And the document was not issued,, nor signed by the Crisis Staff

17 of Samac?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think that is a fair question for this

19 witness. All the witness can see is the signature and what is written on

20 the document. To ask her whether it was issued on the authority of the

21 Crisis Staff is not fair.

22 MR. PANTELIC: I will rephrase my question, Your Honour.

23 Q. [Interpretation] You heard on Radio Samac that a curfew was being

24 imposed; isn't that right?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 6584

1 Q. And you testified here that the order on the imposition of the

2 curfew in Samac was practically made by the Samac Crisis Staff; isn't that

3 right?

4 A. Yes, that's right. But I am talking about Radio Samac. I'm not

5 talking about an order like this, a written order.

6 Q. Is there a possibility in view of the fact that this happened in

7 1992 that perhaps you misheard and that perhaps it was announced on the

8 radio that the curfew was being imposed by the chief of the police? Is it

9 possible, since ten years have gone past since then?

10 A. No. I stand by what I have stated.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, you can take these documents to the

13 registrar. Thank you.

14 Q. [Interpretation] In order to be more precise about certain parts

15 of your testimony, I would kindly ask you to look at your statement from

16 1995 which you provided to the Prosecution. And I would like you just to

17 confirm some things from that statement. This is the statement that we

18 talked about yesterday which you provided to the Prosecution in 1995.

19 Could you please turn to the page where the last two numbers are

20 "71." The last passage on that page I would read, and if you can agree

21 with me, please, say whether this is in your copy of the statement and

22 whether you said that at that time.

23 "I don't know whether Tadic was able to help my husband. I

24 personally think that Todorovic and the army command in Pelagicevo were in

25 charge of the release of the prisoners. I got this perception because the

Page 6585

1 other Serbs also referred to Todorovic in that way."

2 Did you state that in 1995?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Now I will read a part of your statement from 1998 which you

5 provided to the Prosecution. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy in your

6 native language, so that the interpreters will translate this section.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.

8 MS. REIDY: If it would be of assistance, we have a B/C/S version

9 of that.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.

11 MS. REIDY: And secondly, just on this, I would just like to then

12 remind Mr. Pantelic that, yesterday, he talked about this statement being

13 signed by the witness, and I put on the record it wasn't. And we agreed

14 that if we ever came to discuss the statement, he would then reclarify

15 with the witness whether what he's now reading from is a signed statement

16 or not.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, this is a 1995 statement now.

18 MS. REIDY: 1998, Your Honour, I believe.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Now we are speaking about 1998.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: 1998.

21 MR. PANTELIC: And there's no problem for the Prosecution to

22 explore this issue in redirect. It's no problem. Whether it's signed or

23 not, I mean the statement is a statement. Otherwise --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: No. We have to be clear with that. It's not the

25 Prosecutor's notes.

Page 6586

1 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, this is a statement.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, what is it, according to the

3 Prosecution?

4 MS. REIDY: It's a statement that the witness gave, but it's not a

5 signed statement. The one from 1995 is signed. The one from 1998 is not

6 signed. And Mr. Pantelic put on the record yesterday that both the

7 statements were signed without -- so that's what I'd like to clarify. And

8 we said that only if we dealt with that document could we -- would we

9 raise the issue and address it now in this context, which is why I make

10 the intervention. So our statement is it's a statement she gave but it's

11 a not-signed statement, just so it's clear.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But it's a statement that was recorded by an

13 investigator of the Prosecution's office.

14 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour, it was.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I see.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. In the meantime --

17 Q. [Interpretation] I will, of course, remind you that you gave this

18 statement on the 20th of May, 1998. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And there is a paragraph here which says: [In English] [Previous

21 translation continues] ..."To the best of my knowledge and recollection."

22 You remember this -- they asked you whether you gave this

23 statement under coercion or under duress. You said no; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. -- Oh, all right.

Page 6587

1 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe we can get a copy for --


3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, the B/C/S.

4 MS. REIDY: I have a copy. I don't know whether Mr. Pantelic

5 would like a copy of the B/C/S translation.

6 MR. PANTELIC: I don't need. I have English translation. You can

7 put the copy in front of the --

8 MS. REIDY: And also to complete the record, the paragraph which

9 Mr. Pantelic read out: "To the best of my knowledge and recollection," et

10 cetera, it's not signed. That paragraph is, of course, in the format;

11 it's in the statement in the sense that it's a formality pro forma, but

12 the witness has not signed anything after that, that statement which Mr.

13 Pantelic read out. Just in case the Trial Chamber might think that her

14 signature exists after the statement he put on the record.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's just -- it's just an anomaly that a

16 statement recorded from a witness by a Prosecutor's investigator is not

17 signed by the witness.

18 MS. REIDY: It depends on the statement. Often they're taken back

19 and then revised and read back to the witness. Other times, the

20 investigator makes the notes and they're not signed. It really depends

21 on the -- often the second statement isn't signed.

22 MR. PANTELIC: It is rather, Your Honour, a matter of diligence.

23 For example, if the statement --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. Mr. Pantelic --

25 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ... was signed, I

Page 6588

1 don't see why the witness statement from 1998 wasn't signed. But that's

2 my opinion. It's not important

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic -- no, no, you go ahead with the

4 cross-examination. It's for the Trial Chamber to draw conclusions.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: May I assist just on this issue, if Your Honours

7 please.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: There are two statements: One is taken in 1995 and

9 the other one is taken in 1998.


11 MR. DI FAZIO: The statement in 1995 has been signed by the

12 witness.


14 MR. DI FAZIO: She has acknowledged it as her statement, and we

15 can see that in the acknowledgment section.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mm-hm.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Also, the interpreter has signed that she

18 interpreted the statement. So you can tell immediately that it's --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have no problem with 1995.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. It's just that Mr. Pantelic is now going to

21 the statement of 1998 and assuming that it is her statement, and we just

22 don't know. We don't know if it's a summary of the interpreter's notes or

23 whether it's something that was read back to her and that she --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: But those are matters which the Prosecution should

25 have state -- should be able to state, according to their position,

Page 6589

1 according to the position of the Prosecution. This statement -- you say

2 what your position is about it.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Because you know how it was taken.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: You should know. And you are the people who gave it

7 to the Defence counsel.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Well, our position is this: There is nothing

9 to indicate that this is her statement. She has not signed it. It says

10 her statement -- that it's her name on the document. It's got the date.

11 It's interview, the name of the interviewers, and so on and so forth. But

12 it stands in total contrast to that of 1995. Now, it may be that if the

13 witness is asked, look, did you -- "Was it read back to you?" She might

14 be say, "Yes, it was read back to me, I understood every single word, I

15 acknowledge it as mine completely." But we just don't know at this

16 stage. Now, if the Chamber asks me that we should know what the position

17 is, well, I could find out. I could go to the interviewer.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. You see, Mr. Di Fazio, the problem is

19 counsel is cross-examining on a statement which was handed to him as a

20 statement made by the witness. If you are -- if you are contesting that,

21 then you say so. That's all.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not contesting that. I'm not contesting that.

23 I'm saying I don't know. I don't know. Because in 1995, you can tell --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. Mr. Di Fazio, we are through with 1995.

25 It is the status of the statement recorded in 1998 which is causing a

Page 6590

1 problem.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Let counsel go ahead with cross-examination. The

4 re-examination can be done. The submissions will be made at the right

5 time.

6 Mr. Pantelic, please go ahead.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Just to help my friends, this witness has answered

8 to this question. I asked her whether it was your statement, did you say

9 that, and whether it was read to you. She said yes. No problem with me.

10 You can check the transcript.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Delic, will you please so kind as to find

12 the fifth or sixth paragraph on the last page. It concerns the same event

13 with Tadic. In your statement, the English version bears the number

14 67006711.

15 MR. PANTELIC: The ERN number is 00 -- 00611647.

16 Q. [In English] "Later I used to come to the Red Cross premises to

17 ask about the exchange. I had to contact Miroslav Tadic all the time in

18 order to be exchanged. I would like to mention that he often used the

19 words "this arrangement does not include Dragan," and he would also say

20 that the lists had gone to Pelagicevo, meaning that someone in Pelagicevo

21 was making the decision. They would not allow Dragan's name to be put on

22 the list, because he was a Muslim."

23 [Interpretation] You did say this to the Prosecution in 1998?

24 A. I did. But that was from the words of --

25 Q. I'm just asking you, is that what you said?

Page 6591

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Are you aware of the fact that electricity supply in 1992 was made

3 difficult or impossible due to sabotage actions carried out on

4 transmission lines in the surrounding area; yes or no?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the supply of electricity to Samac

7 was cut off by the centre for distribution of electricity in -- under the

8 control of the Muslims; yes or no?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you agree with me if I were to say that during the state of

11 war, many public utility services, such as electricity supply, telephone

12 communications, water supply, et cetera, work under extraordinary and

13 difficult conditions due to the state of war?

14 A. I think the telephone communication is an exception.

15 Q. But everything is more difficult during the war.

16 A. I don't know whether at that time it was the case only with parts

17 or the entirety. I was not familiar with details of electricity supply or

18 other public utilities and their situation.

19 Q. But you did testify that in certain neighbourhoods of the town,

20 for longer stretches of time, there was no electricity at all; right?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Do you, as a well-educated person who has experience and ability

23 in assessing the situation, do you believe it is normal when -- for power

24 cuts to exist during wartime, or do you think everything should run just

25 as normal, just as always?

Page 6592

1 A. I can't answer that question.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, precisely. I didn't think so, that this is the

3 question for the witness.

4 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So we are talking about Samac and telephone lines. In wartime in

6 Samac, do you believe it was quite normal for problems to exist with

7 telephone communication?

8 A. I can't answer that question with "yes" or "no."

9 Q. Answer as you like.

10 A. I did experience problems during the war in Bosanski Samac.

11 Q. Did you have problems with your telephone before 1992?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did it happen at least once before 1992 that your personal -- your

14 private telephone line was cut off?

15 A. No. At least not for more than an hour, and it was a minor

16 dysfunction.

17 Q. So when your telephone isn't working, you contact the telephone

18 service and ask for it to be repaired; is that right?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. But you told this Court that in 1992, when your telephone wasn't

21 working, you didn't call the operator and ask for your telephone to be

22 repaired. Why?

23 A. Because I knew that all my friends and neighbours of non-Serbian

24 ethnicity also had dead telephones. I didn't know who to contact, and I

25 didn't know if I should. And out of fear, I didn't dare to contact

Page 6593

1 anyone. I was cut off from the social and economic life of the new

2 regime, and that's how I felt.

3 Q. Let us assume that your theory is correct.

4 A. I would appreciate it if you would agree that it is completely

5 correct.

6 Q. Will you please wait for me to finish my question. Let us assume

7 that your theory is correct. Were you aware of the fact that military and

8 police security services, due to the suspicion that hostile elements are

9 guiding their shelling equipment at Samac, are cutting off telephones to

10 prevent communication with the enemy? Did you have any such knowledge?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You spoke about a tragic event concerning the isolation of

13 non-Serbian women and children at the stadium in Crkvina near Samac.

14 A. I didn't mention the stadium. I don't know exactly where they

15 were.

16 Q. Or was it Crkvina?

17 A. From speaking to the women who had been taken away, I know that

18 some of them had been in Crkvina. But I didn't learn any details about

19 it.

20 Q. And when was that approximately in 1992?

21 A. It could have been the 12th of May or -- mid-May. Sometime

22 between the 10th and the 13th of May.

23 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Serb refugees from the surrounding

24 villages were expelled by Croats and arrived in Samac precisely in

25 mid-May; yes or no?

Page 6594

1 A. At that time, I was able to spot a large group of newly arrived

2 neighbours in Bosanski Samac. They were moving into houses and apartments

3 owned by non-Serbian citizens who had previously been taken away to camps

4 -- or to the camp.

5 Q. Do you know that in that interval, there were several thousand

6 Serbs who were detained in surrounding villages in the area of Samac,

7 detained by the Croatian Defence counsel, the HVO?

8 A. I have no evidence to that effect.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, that type of evidence, whether or not

10 the Serbs were expelled from anywhere or detained from anywhere, does not

11 provide a defence for the charges against your client. Those are matters,

12 I think, for the Prosecutor's office to take on and deal with and

13 prosecute the people responsible.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, if I may pose certain questions and

15 you will see the line -- the logic line of the events in Samac, with

16 regard to this particular incident.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.

18 MS. REIDY: Of course Your Honour is absolutely correct. But he

19 says, "if I pursue this line." The witness has said she has no

20 information and no knowledge. So how can he pursue anything with a

21 witness who doesn't know any of the things that he is alleging happened?

22 He's put a number of allegations, none of which have been confirmed by any

23 knowledge, personal knowledge, of this witness, so I really can't see how

24 he can continue to pursue down this, except for what you said, having it

25 put on the record some form of defence which doesn't actually have value

Page 6595

1 in the jurisprudence of this Tribunal.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: The objection is sustained, Mr. Pantelic.

3 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mrs. Delic, are you familiar with the incident in which a large

5 number of Serbian refugees in Samac threatened in the middle of May that

6 they would lynch the non-Serbian population of Samac because they and

7 their families are targeted and subjected to horrors by Croats?

8 A. I am not aware of that fact. I didn't hear anything about it.

9 Q. I'm talking about an event when a large number of Serbian refugees

10 gathered in the centre of the town and made a protest rally against the

11 non-Serbian population in Samac. Do you know anything about that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know that military and political authorities, with the view

14 to protect the citizenry, decided that a large number of non-Serbian

15 population should be moved to Crkvina to relieve the tension?

16 A. This is the first I hear of it.

17 Q. But in your testimony, you did say that after a certain time,

18 women started coming back from Crkvina to Samac. Is that correct?

19 A. I did say that some of them went to be exchanged and others came

20 back. Not always to their own homes that -- at that. I learned about it

21 from one person who did come back to her own apartment.

22 Q. Regarding the work obligation in Bosanski Samac, are you familiar

23 with the fact that the director of an enterprise decides about employment

24 in that enterprise?

25 A. It depends on the institution. I assume that it was like that,

Page 6596

1 yes.

2 Q. You mentioned that your husband's brother was on work obligation.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was he a military conscript?

5 A. I wouldn't go into that. I would not wish to testify about

6 whether he was or wasn't. I don't know.

7 Q. Are you aware of the fact that if somebody who is mobilised as not

8 going to the army must carry out certain work obligations? Do you know

9 that or not?

10 A. No, I don't know.

11 Q. Mrs. Delic, I am almost at the end of my cross-examination. And I

12 must tell you that while talking with my client, I obtained the following

13 information: The Crisis Staff never made the orders that you mentioned

14 regarding curfew; the Crisis Staff never made any decisions banning the

15 gathering of three or more persons that you mentioned; the Crisis Staff

16 had no role in any of the things that you talked about. And I would now

17 ask you whether -- after these proceedings, either to correct your

18 position or state that you did not talk about the Crisis Staff or that

19 your recollection of the activities of the Crisis Staff was not really

20 very good.

21 A. Should I respond to that right now?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. I made my statements according to the best of my recollection and

24 knowledge, and I have no intention of changing what I have said.

25 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Delic, for your assistance before this Trial

Page 6597

1 Chamber, and thank you for your testimony.

2 A. Thank you.

3 I would also like to insist, I personally as a witness, if I may

4 address the Honourable Judges one more time.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can say what you want, Mrs. Delic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would just like to

7 recall the document which yesterday in one minute before 6.00 was resolved

8 as a topic for question and answer. What I said regarding that document

9 remained unclear to me. I don't know whether this was translated in

10 English the way that I said it, but I think that while I was talking about

11 that document and my stance regarding that document were not identical.

12 Now I am talking about the translation of the document.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Which document is this?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the decree or order for bidding

15 the gathering of more than two Muslims or Croats and so on. I don't

16 remember the document number.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure Ms. Reidy can take that up in

18 re-examination if it's important for the Prosecution.

19 Yes, you can go ahead with re-examination.

20 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

21 Re-examined by Ms. Reidy:

22 Q. Mrs. Delic, I'll address it as a matter of concern. But I would

23 just like to start off the re-examination by allowing you to answer the

24 question which Judge Williams put to you that Mr. Pantelic, in fact,

25 didn't. So if you recall, Judge Williams had asked about documentation,

Page 6598

1 possibly I think she meant permits, logbook, that sort of documentation,

2 which was normally attached to ownership of a car. What happened to that

3 documentation when the car was taken away?

4 A. All the documents relating to the car were together with the car's

5 documents, and they were in the -- they were in the car. Everything that

6 was in the car, all the documentation were taken away. It was all in the

7 glove compartment. So I don't know exactly which documents they were, but

8 all the documents regarding the car were there, and they were all taken.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, is that enough clarification on that

11 matter?

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes. That's fine. Thanks.


14 Q. Mrs. Delic, I will continue just now to pick up matters that

15 Mr. Pantelic raised in his cross, since I started there. And perhaps I'll

16 start again with this document that concerns you.

17 MS. REIDY: For the record, it's P40.

18 Q. Now you testified yesterday that the contents of that document,

19 the prohibition, was the same contents as what you had -- what you had

20 seen. Can I ask you, on the 27th of June, when your car was taken, by

21 that time -- so prior to the 27th of June -- had you already seen on a

22 public poster or something like that an order saying that there should be

23 a -- there should be no gathering of two or more non-Serbs?

24 A. I can't state the exact date, but the month of August was on the

25 document. I don't know the exact date when it was.

Page 6599

1 Q. Absolutely, Mrs. Delic. I'm not asking you to talk about the

2 document, which speaks for itself. And you're correct; it's August.

3 Just, you talked about the contents of it. And I want to know whether you

4 knew the contents of that order. So were you aware of a prohibition on

5 the gathering of non-Serbs before, for example, the 27th of June? I know

6 you don't know when exactly you first heard it, but by the time your car

7 was taken, were you already aware there was a prohibition on the gathering

8 of non-Serbs?

9 A. Before the 27th of June. It was -- in any case, in the month of

10 July, I already was informed about it.

11 Q. Thank you. Could I -- and to clarify, did you know this

12 information from reading, like, a public poster, a sign? Or was it an

13 order, an issue, put through your door?

14 A. It wasn't issued per person, but these were all public posters.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. REIDY: Could I ask if the witness could be given a copy of her

17 statement from 1995 which is signed and Mr. Pantelic had asked her a

18 number of questions about it. I have a copy here.

19 For the record, the witness is being provided with the B/C/S

20 version of the statement which Mr. Pantelic based his cross-examination

21 on.



24 Q. Mrs. Delic, could I ask you to turn to the page which Mr. Pantelic

25 asked you about. I think it was page 6, or with the ERN in the top corner

Page 6600

1 ending in "68." Have you got to that page? In the bottom right-hand

2 corner, it will say "6," and the top will have the last two digits "68."

3 Okay. Can I ask you to look at the fourth paragraph from the

4 bottom of that. And does the second sentence -- or perhaps you could read

5 out the second sentence of that -- the fourth paragraph from the bottom.

6 A. "I saw posters" -- is that the passage?

7 Q. That's correct. Thank you.

8 A. "I saw posters in public places and institutions in which Serbs

9 forbade the gathering of Muslims and members of other ethnicities in

10 public places."

11 Q. Thank you. I now ask you -- Mr. Pantelic had then turned to the

12 next page, page 7, or the one in the top-hand corner with a "69" in it.

13 And he'd asked you to, I think, read the fourth -- anyway, one of those

14 paragraphs from the B/C/S. And then he didn't ask you to continue. So

15 I'd ask you to go to the fourth paragraph from the bottom of the statement

16 in B/C/S. And then if you could perhaps read it out and tell me whether

17 or not you confirm that that's also part of your statement.

18 A. "The orders were issued by the Crisis Staff and the President of

19 the Serb Assembly, Blagoje Simic. They were announced on posters posted

20 in public places, and over the radio. The posters were signed, not

21 originally. And they also bore the stamp with the 4-S logo." And I abide

22 by what I have stated.

23 Q. Thank you. And can I confirm, this is something that you said in

24 1995, just three years after the event and not just here in the courtroom;

25 is that correct?

Page 6601

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned in the paragraph you just read a

3 stamp with 4 C's on it. Is that the same stamp that you described seeing

4 at the bottom of the document you were provided with when your car was

5 taken away?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 MS. REIDY: Could I ask the witness just to be provided with two

8 exhibits, the Exhibit P49 and the Exhibit D28/1. And sorry, in both

9 cases, could the witness be shown the ter versions, the B/C/S.

10 Q. Mrs. Delic, could I ask you to look at both of those documents in

11 front of you and ask whether the stamp on both of those are the stamps --

12 the sort of stamp you're referring to as seeing in these public posters

13 and that in 1992 in Samac.

14 A. That's correct. They're the same stamps.

15 Q. And your understanding of the stamps is what, that this was from

16 the official authorities at the time? Or what did that stamp mean to the

17 people in Samac at the time when they saw that on something?

18 MR. PANTELIC: Objection. Objection. It's calling for

19 speculation, of course.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. Yes, what did the people in Samac at the

21 time they saw that, what did they think? Okay. Maybe just the witness,

22 as to what she thought.


24 Q. I'm not asking you to testify about other people's impression, I'm

25 sorry. But for you, you said this was the stamp you saw on orders. What

Page 6602












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts. Pages 6602 to 6608.













Page 6609

1 did it mean to you?

2 A. To me, it meant that this was the stamp of the official

3 authorities, the new Serb municipality or the Serb Republic of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina.

5 Q. Thank you. That's all I wanted to raise with those documents.

6 MS. REIDY: If the usher would like to assist me and just take

7 them back from the witness.

8 Q. Mrs. Delic, you were asked about whether a document put in front

9 of you by Mr. Pantelic made any reference to the curfew only being

10 applicable to any particular ethnic group or only to non-Serbs, and you

11 confirmed that the document in front of you didn't specify it. Do you --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, when you're asking the witness "a

13 document put in front of you," can you -- at the end of your question, can

14 you say "I'm referring to exhibit number or identification number,"

15 please.

16 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry. I was referring on that

17 occasion to the Exhibit D28/1.

18 Q. Now, you said your knowledge of the curfew came from the radio and

19 not from that document. But -- sorry. And then my question is: Did you

20 experience from your observation of the curfew and the way it was imposed

21 that different members of different groups were expected to -- could obey

22 it or were free to disobey it if they chose?

23 A. I could understand that, based on the events which followed after

24 I found out about this announcement.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Baen.

Page 6610

1 MS. BAEN: I'm sorry. I'm just objecting on speculation, really

2 just the form of the question. This witness obviously can testify to what

3 it meant to her from her observation. But when the questions are broad,

4 trying to elicit some general impression, I just think that's improper and

5 I think it can be remedied by reformulating the question. Thank you.

6 MS. REIDY: I'm happy to reformulate. I certainly don't want the

7 witness to speculate. I had thought I had asked specifically from her

8 experience and her observation when she was in Samac, her personal

9 knowledge. How was the curfew actually observed and enforced from her

10 personal experience.

11 Q. So that's the question, Mrs. Delic, from your personal

12 experience.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. From her personal experience. That's proper.

14 You can go ahead, Ms. Reidy.

15 A. What I noticed was the fact that despite the curfew, after the set

16 hour, 9.00 p.m., some people were moving on the streets. I could

17 recognise a few of my neighbours who went to visit one another in the

18 evening hours, and then they would come back home normally after 21 hours.

19 Q.


21 Q. Thank you. Here it says that a few of your neighbours went to

22 visit one another. They would normally come back after 21 hours. Were

23 those neighbours of Serb ethnicity, of non-Serb ethnicity, or were they

24 both?

25 A. These were Serb families. It's no secret that the Dujmusic

Page 6611

1 family, the Todorovic family, the Krstanovic family, all lived in my

2 neighbourhood, and they socialised, they visited one another. So I could

3 see some members of those families who were moving around after the

4 curfew.

5 Q. Thank you. I turn now to questions that were posed about rumours

6 you'd heard concerning the background of your husband's arrest. Mr.

7 Pantelic brought up the fact that you'd heard that he could be on a list

8 of suspicious persons, that someone allegedly fired from your house. Did

9 anybody fire from your house?

10 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. I think I didn't bring up

11 the fact. I just put the statement, her statement, in front of her. I

12 just -- so in that terms, you can, my dear friend, reformulate your

13 question.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The question is okay. The objection is

15 overruled.


17 Q. Mrs. Delic, you can answer. Did anyone fire from your house?

18 A. Nobody ever fired from the apartment where I lived -- where I used

19 to live. I apologise. Where I used to live at that time.

20 Q. Did your husband have a weapon which he could have fired from?

21 A. He did not have a weapon. And of course, all of those who did

22 have a weapon had to have a permit in order to carry that weapon or to

23 purchase a weapon. These -- we did not have that kind of permit.

24 Q. Then, as you had said in your statement and it was raised by

25 Mr. Pantelic, you heard another reason, that maybe your husband -- they

Page 6612

1 were investigating whether your husband had signed any compromising

2 documents in the Mebos factory about financing the purchasing of weapons.

3 And again, did your husband, to the best of your knowledge, sign any

4 compromising documents about financing the purchase of weapons?

5 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. It's improper question.

6 How she could know what her husband signed or not? I mean, it's a

7 question for her husband, anyway. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Some couples exchange information. Maybe the

9 husband could have told her. And the question was "to the best of your

10 knowledge," to the best of the witness's knowledge. So she can answer

11 that.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe the question could be reformulated, whether

13 your husband told you something about this particular event or not, did

14 you speak with him. I mean, it's rather general.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. Yes. But she did add "to the best of

16 your knowledge." That's sufficient.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I agree.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, you can proceed.

19 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

20 Q. Ms. Delic, could you answer the question: To the best of

21 your knowledge, did your husband ever sign any documentation, compromising

22 documentation about the financing of purchasing of weapons?

23 A. He didn't sign such documents. And I would like to add here to my

24 statement that during those few days, because of rumours like that, I

25 tried to find amongst the new leaderships or the authorised persons of the

Page 6613

1 public accounting service in Bosanski Samac, and I contacted Mr. Ilija

2 Mitrovic, who had been in the public accounting service before, and I

3 tried to find out whether there was any information or any document in the

4 public accounting service about this matter, and he told me that up to

5 that time, none -- documents of that kind were found.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I believe it's quarter to 4.00, and that

8 would normally be the time for the break.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall have a break and continue our

10 proceedings at 14.15 -- at 16.15.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy. Re-examination continuing.

14 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Q. Mrs. Delic, I just have one or two more questions on the questions

16 put to you by Mr. Pantelic. Prior to the 17th of April, 1992, did you

17 have any hesitation in approaching the official authorities if you had a

18 problem, for example, with your telephone, or if somebody had -- you know,

19 you were entitled to compensation? Would you have hesitated to go to the

20 authorities before the 17th of April, 1992?

21 A. No. Nor did I have any problems with having my claims or requests

22 satisfied.

23 Q. You've testified that you didn't go to the telephone company or

24 you didn't pursue a number of matters with official authorities. Was

25 there such a dramatic change after the 17th of April that you no longer --

Page 6614

1 I mean, was it usual that you wouldn't have continued as you had before

2 the 17th of April?

3 A. It seemed a normal conclusion to make for me, from my point of

4 view, because I was no longer welcome at my work and I was excluded from

5 the social and economic life of the community under the new regime, and I

6 therefore understood that I no longer had the opportunity to have any of

7 my claims or requests met through normal official channels.

8 Q. Mr. Pantelic asked you a lot about how difficult war conditions

9 are, and in general, the problems of running things during wartime. And

10 he began his questioning by asking you whether or not it was the common

11 fate of all the inhabitants of the town. And you said that you did not

12 all share the same. Can I ask you, in your personal experience and based

13 on your -- the fact that you were a non-Serb living in Bosanski Samac in

14 April 1992, did you experience discrimination after the 17th of April,

15 1992, because you were a non-Serb?

16 MS. BAEN: Objection. Calls for a legal conclusion.

17 "Discrimination," that's a legal term.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Partly upheld.

19 Ms. Reidy, you can rephrase the question, I think.

20 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour.



23 Q. Ms. Delic, were you treated differently as a non-Serb in Bosanski

24 Samac after the 17th of April, 1992, in your experience?

25 A. I could conclude that with certainty from the way I was living,

Page 6615

1 and I have to say this again, from the way I was included, or rather,

2 excluded from the economic life of my town, the work duties, et cetera.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: I think it would be -- it will be more helpful to

4 ask if she gives us a few more details in what way she was excluded, in

5 what way she was treated differently, and who was being treated as usual.


7 Q. Would you help us in that in filling in some details.

8 A. When I say that I was not included in the social and economic life

9 under the new regime, I mean to say that I simply felt as if I didn't

10 exist. And there was an awareness in me that if a person is not invited

11 to work even in a wartime economy, when one has to make a special effort

12 to make ends meet, and after all, I was alone with two children living in

13 my flat from the 17th of April to the 4th of September. And I have

14 already stated in my testimony which of my colleagues from the school

15 continued to work as teachers or administrators. So that's all I would

16 have to say about that.

17 Q. So could you tell us, the people you were being treated

18 differently from, who were they exactly? Were they -- which population

19 group were they? Were they Serb?

20 A. Certainly, citizens of Serb ethnicity had rights. I have already

21 quoted examples of saleswomen. And I said that Serb -- non-Serb

22 saleswomen were left out at one point, were relieved, whereas Serb

23 saleswomen continued in their jobs.

24 Q. So one example where you experienced being treated differently was

25 with relation to continuing to work as a teacher. Are there any other

Page 6616

1 examples you could give the Chamber as to how you were excluded or treated

2 differently from people of Serb ethnicity?

3 A. Reading decisions such as the decision banning socialising or

4 gathering of non-Serbs, I clearly realised my new status in that newly

5 established Serbian community.

6 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'll leave that there and move on to the

7 cross-examination of Ms. Baen.

8 Q. Ms. Baen asked you specifically about the issue of visits to the

9 primary school. And at one stage, you began to relate an anecdote or an

10 incident about how you tried to go to the primary school and then you used

11 the word, you had to "abort" the attempt. And you weren't allowed to give

12 that example. But I'd like you now to say -- to fill us in. Could you

13 please continue what you wanted to say about that time you tried to see

14 your husband.

15 A. I think I said that on that day, I went to that school, together

16 with my children, thinking that I would be able to arrange for my children

17 to see their father, at least for a few moments. They were overjoyed, of

18 course. I took a small lunch bag, as usual, and a bag with fresh, clean

19 laundry, a change of clothes, and we were standing at the entrance to the

20 building.

21 At the same time, a car approached, driven by a police officer,

22 Savo Cancarevic. I was able to recognise him, and I knew that he worked

23 as a policeman in town even before the war. He was yelling, "What is this

24 woman doing here? Who allowed her to be here? I'll shoot." I just told

25 my children to run ahead and leave the courtyard. I didn't want to run

Page 6617

1 myself though. I just tried to contain my pride and started walking away

2 slowly. That, again, once again, reminded me of my status in that town

3 and my current way of living.

4 Q. So based on that, I take it that these visits were not officially

5 sanctioned visits in any sense of a prison visit. They were simply the

6 opportunities you took to get a glimpse of your husband or tried to get

7 him through something. Is that correct?

8 A. Certainly. I would also like to add that sometimes my attempts to

9 see him did not succeed also because he was unable to get up and walk up

10 to the door because he had been beaten up the night before and he was

11 unable to move the next day, or a couple of days even. Sometimes I could

12 only receive a bag of dirty laundry through the guard, and this laundry

13 had bloodstains on it. And that -- in that way, I was able to know what

14 was going on inside. It was like a message from him.

15 Q. Did the guard ever tell you that he was unable to come to you, or

16 he just simply told you that you wouldn't be allowed to see your husband

17 that day and gave you these bloodstained clothes?

18 A. He would just say, "Here. This is for you." No explanation.

19 Q. Did you ever hear singing when you went to try to see your

20 husband?

21 A. Sometimes in the evening or late at night -- my house wasn't far

22 away from the school, and in the summertime, you could hear what was going

23 on; not clearly perhaps, but you could hear singing from that direction.

24 The songs were Serb nationalist songs.

25 Q. And my last question on this point is: Do you know whether the

Page 6618

1 guards who were minding it had any instructions about working certain

2 shifts or working any routine?

3 A. I know nothing about that.

4 Q. Thank you. I turn now to the examination by counsel for Mr.

5 Tadic.

6 Did Mr. Tadic warn you to hide your money when you went on the bus

7 because it might be taken from you? Did he give you that warning?

8 A. I don't remember about that, and I think I said in my statement

9 that I hadn't heard anything to that effect from him.

10 Q. Thank you. You were asked about the name of this organisation who

11 was arranging exchanges, and you called it the Serbian Red Cross. And who

12 told you that it was now called the "Serb Red Cross," and not the

13 "Bosanski Samac Municipal Red Cross"?

14 A. Unfortunately, I have no proof with me, but I'm certain that there

15 existed emblems and signs with the lettering "Serbian Red Cross." I am

16 certain that such signs existed in Bosanski Samac at that time.

17 Q. You were asked about the building that the Serbian Red Cross was

18 in, and you were asked about whether or not they flew the sign of the Red

19 Cross over it. And I want to know, at that building, did you see armed

20 personnel --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic.

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The question that I -- the questions

23 that I asked are not properly quoted by Ms. Reidy. I asked questions

24 about the headquarters of the Red Cross, not the Serbian Red Cross, so I

25 would appreciate it if the Prosecutor would pay attention to that when

Page 6619

1 re-examining.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, I think you can check the transcript.

3 MS. REIDY: Yes. I think -- Mr. Krgovic is absolutely right. He

4 himself, I think, called it the Bosanski Samac conference of the Red

5 Cross. And I didn't mean to imply that he had called it the Serbian Red

6 Cross. The witness refers to this institution as the Serbian Red Cross.

7 And I was saying that she was asked questions about the building where

8 that was. So I'm sorry if it's misleading that Mr. Krgovic had put it

9 that way, then I stand corrected. It was asked about the building -- it

10 was referred to as a building, "the office of the Red Cross were in a home

11 for retired people."

12 Q. So Mrs. Delic, I'll rephrase the question, and the tenor of the

13 question remains the same. You were asked about the building where Mr.

14 Krgovic calls it the Red Cross was -- the offices of the Red Cross were,

15 and about the flag flying. And my question is, in the place where the

16 flag was flying, did you also see military people or armed people?

17 A. Those were the premises of the Red Cross, whichever one of them we

18 are talking about. I visited offices of the Red Cross located in the home

19 for retired people. At that time, Mr. Tadic owned weapons himself when he

20 was in those offices, and I think it says somewhere in my statement that

21 his gun was lying on the desk. I don't know anything about the others.

22 At that time I didn't have any contact.

23 Q. Was Mr. Tadic in a military -- wearing a military uniform or

24 civilian clothes when you went to see him in the offices?

25 A. Most of the time he was in a military uniform, a camouflage

Page 6620

1 military uniform.

2 Q. Sorry, I think for the clarity of the record, you do say "most of

3 the time." Does that mean that sometimes he wasn't?

4 A. I remember that on the day of the exchange, he wasn't wearing his

5 uniform. I clearly remember that he was wearing a summer or a light

6 shirt. In any case, it was civilian clothing. But during my visits, he

7 was wearing a camouflage uniform.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, that's the end of my re-examination.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Mrs. Delic, for giving evidence

11 to the Tribunal. It's now over. You can go.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, it has nothing to do with the

16 witness. I just think maybe it is a good time for us, because we have

17 received some translations, official translations of some documents that

18 we already introduced into evidence. So maybe it is a good time --


20 MR. LAZAREVIC: -- for us to give it.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. While we are waiting for the next witness,

22 yes.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours, please, is Mr. Lazarevic asking us

24 for -- is he going to just hand up the translations, or ask us whether or

25 not we consent to documents that are identified going fully into

Page 6621

1 evidence? I've got no problem, of course, with the translations being

2 handed up. But as to if you want an answer from the Prosecution as to our

3 position on these documents, then I'd need more time to look at them, go

4 through the transcript, see why we objected in the first place and so on.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. All right. I'm sure Mr. Lazarevic will be

6 able to say whether or not the documents were given an ID number because

7 of lack of translation or for some other reason.

8 Yes.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, these are documents that already have

10 number. They were identified just for identification. So they have ID

11 numbers. English translation have been provided to the Office of the

12 Prosecutor, to their case manager, a couple of days ago. I was just

13 waiting for a proper moment, not to interrupt anything here in the -- at

14 the Bench. And so the Prosecutor is fully aware of the content of these

15 documents.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: But anyhow, the translation that we have received

18 of some -- these are translation of some portions, so of constitution, of

19 law, of All People's Defence, and things like that. So I don't believe

20 that there will be any dispute in these regards. But of course, if the

21 Prosecutor insists -

22 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. Just give us document by document, and

23 the ID numbers.


25 JUDGE MUMBA: All right?

Page 6622

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: First is number D11/4 ID. So far it was marked

2 ter, so this is, I believe, D11/4 ID. Then D12/4 and D13/4, these three

3 documents.

4 MR. PANTELIC: And in the meantime, Your Honours, following our

5 standard procedure with regard to the position of the Defence prior to a

6 new witness, maybe we could just make a quick swap.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm asking the security to allow the accused

8 persons just to swap places, in any order.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: While that's occurring, may -- if Your Honours

10 please, may I just approach the Defence bench.


12 MR. DI FAZIO: I need to speak to Ms. Baen.


14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the English translation -- okay.

17 Maybe we can bring in the witness, and the documentation can be

18 dealt with.

19 Ms. Baen -- I mean, Ms. Reidy. It's Friday.

20 MS. REIDY: I know.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.

22 MS. REIDY: I just wanted to advise you that I've had a quick

23 review of those documents, 11 through to 13/4, and the Prosecution

24 position is we have no objection at all to them being fully entered into

25 evidence. They're straightforward translations.

Page 6623

1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please make the solemn declaration.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

9 Yes, the Prosecution can proceed.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

12 Q. Mr. Di Fazio, the witness who just walked out of court, Snjezana

13 Delic is your wife, I believe.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you have children?

16 A. We have two children.

17 Q. And is that a boy and a girl?

18 A. A boy and a girl.

19 Q. And are you and your family currently residing in a nearby

20 European country, not being Bosnia?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. What's your current occupation, the occupation you have as we

23 speak?

24 A. I work in a printing shop.

25 Q. I want to know a bit more about your past. Where were you born?

Page 6624

1 A. I was born on the 15th of July, 1952 in Doboj, Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina.

3 Q. Tell the Chamber where you went to school. I'm talking about both

4 elementary school and your high school, please.

5 A. I finished elementary and secondary school in Bosanski Samac, and

6 I received a degree in machine engineering in Sarajevo.

7 Q. Up until April of 1992, had you lived most of your life in

8 Bosanski Samac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And by that stage, that is, April of 1992, you, I think, already

11 had -- both your children had already been born and you were living there

12 with your wife; is that correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. How old were your kids in 1992? Can you give us an idea, please.

15 A. My daughter was ten and my son was seven.

16 Q. Where were you working in 1992?

17 A. I worked at the Mebos factory.

18 Q. And what sort of job were you performing there?

19 A. I was the president of the managing board.

20 Q. In addition to high school education, did you attain some sort of

21 university education?

22 A. I finished the faculty of mechanical engineering in Sarajevo.

23 Q. And did that background assist you in working at Mebos?

24 A. Yes, it did.

25 Q. As a citizen of the former Yugoslavia, did you perform military

Page 6625

1 service?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Tell the Chamber when you performed it, how long you performed it

4 for, if you specialised in anything, and where you performed it.

5 A. I served in the military in 1979. I was in Sombor and Bihac for

6 a year, and I completed special training for a signalman.

7 Q. In plainer English, would that be basically radio operating, the

8 use of radio sets in the military setting?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. I also want you to tell the Chamber if you have had any

11 affiliations or associations with any political parties. And I'm really

12 speaking about the period of time leading up to April of 1992.

13 In fact, to clarify matters, I should expand the question. I'm

14 really covering any political affiliations at any time in your life, but

15 leading up to the period of time in April of 1992.

16 A. As a competitor in the state sports teams, I was accepted into the

17 Communist Party 1970. I was not an active member of the League of

18 Communists since 1990.

19 Q. What about your ceasing to be an active -- the period of time

20 after your ceasing to be an active member of the League of Communists?

21 Did you engage in any other political activity or join any other political

22 parties?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. If asked to describe your ethnicity, how would you describe it?

25 A. My father is a Muslim; so is my mother; and so am I.

Page 6626

1 Q. Can you tell the Chamber if your name, your full name, Dragan

2 Hasana Delic, is an obviously Muslim name. In other words, would a normal

3 citizen of the former Yugoslavia in the early 1990s, upon hearing your

4 name, instantly recognise you as being a member of the -- or being Muslim

5 by ethnicity?

6 A. If you said "Dragan Delic," you wouldn't know immediately that I

7 was a Muslim. If you added my father's name, son of Hasan, then you could

8 tell that I was a Muslim.

9 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Blagoje Simic?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. Can you tell the Chamber approximately when you first met him and

12 how long you've known him.

13 A. I know him from about town. And the last time I saw him was a

14 couple of months before the aggression on Bosanski Samac, in the premises

15 of the waterworks company, in the office of the director, Muharem

16 Barjaktarevic.

17 Q. Do I take it from your answer that you didn't have any sort of

18 extended social or professional contacts with him?

19 A. That's true; I did not.

20 Q. Look around the room and see if you can see him. And if so, point

21 him out.

22 A. He is sitting over there. He has a small beard, and he's wearing

23 a blue tie.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: May the transcript reflect that the witness has

Page 6627

1 correctly identified the defendant Mr. Blagoje Simic.



4 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Simo Zaric?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. I have the same questions for you that I had in respect of Mr.

7 Blagoje Simic; in other words, how long you've known him, the sort of

8 contact you had with him, whether it was professional or social. And

9 after you've told us, answered those questions, could you also identify

10 him, if you can see him in the room.

11 A. Yes, I can recognise him. Simo Zaric is sitting in the middle.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: And may the transcript reflect that the witness has

14 identified Mr. Zaric.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: He hasn't answered fully how long has he known him

16 and his social contacts, please.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

18 Q. Now can we deal with the other aspect of the question, namely, how

19 long you've known him, the sort of contact you had with him.

20 A. He's been working and living in Bosanski Samac for a number of

21 years. I know him very well. He used to be the director of the Buducnost

22 company. I know him well.



25 Q. I have the same series of questions in relation to a gentleman

Page 6628

1 named Mr. Tadic. Can you inform the Trial Chamber if you know that man,

2 Mr. Miroslav Tadic, how long you've known him, the sort of contact you had

3 with him, and if you can look around the room and see if you can identify

4 him.

5 A. I've known him for a number of years now: As my neighbour, then

6 as a teacher of a practical subject at school. Then he opened a shop

7 where we often shopped, me and my family. After that, he opened the AS

8 Cafe, where I didn't used to go, but I know him very well. He's sitting

9 at the beginning, and he is wearing a moustache.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: And may the transcript reflect that the witness has

12 correctly identified Mr. Miroslav Tadic.


14 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honour pleases, I'm not going to deal with

15 the identification issue of any other defendant in this case, for obvious

16 reasons. I understand that from having spoken to Ms. Baen that the issue

17 will be resolved, I believe -- I think to our satisfaction and the Court's

18 satisfaction by Monday.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. You can go ahead.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't need to trouble the Chamber with that issue

21 at the moment. But I just wanted to point that out, that -- for obvious

22 reasons.

23 Q. Now, you've said that you -- after you left the League of

24 Communists, you didn't have any political connections. In the period of

25 time leading up to April of 1992, did you ever attend any political

Page 6629

1 rallies, political meetings, or meetings where current and important

2 issues of the day were discussed?

3 A. I attended one meeting of the local commune where the topic of

4 opening the bridge across the Sava was discussed, opening it up to normal

5 traffic. The bridge was closed at that point in time. The meeting was

6 attended by Simo Zaric and Miroslav Tadic.

7 Q. I'd like to get more details of this meeting. First of all, was

8 it attended by representatives of various nationalist political parties:

9 the SDS, SDA, and HDZ?

10 A. Yes, they were. They did attend.

11 Q. And tell the Chamber how it was that you came to attend this

12 particular meeting.

13 A. I was very interested in opening the bridge up for traffic because

14 my company obtained certain spare parts from Slovenia. So we were in the

15 situation where we had to halt our production because we were not able to

16 get our supplies of the material that we needed. Amongst other things, I

17 heard at that meeting for the first time openly from Simo Zaric that there

18 exists a formation called the 4th Detachment, which was part of the

19 military forces of the JNA from Brcko.

20 Q. Can I just interrupt you there. I need to get more details about

21 the meeting itself. First of all, where was the meeting conducted? And

22 secondly, when was the meeting conducted in relation to events of the 16th

23 and 17th of April, 1992? If you can't give us a precise date, please give

24 us an approximation.

25 A. This was a couple of months before the 16th and 17th of April.

Page 6630

1 Q. Where was it conducted?

2 A. The meeting was held in the building they called the old

3 pensioner's hall, which had a meeting room where the local community also

4 held its meetings.

5 Q. I earlier asked you how you came to attend at the meeting. In

6 fact, I was interested in how your attendance was arranged. Did you go

7 there on your own initiative? Were you invited, or did you find yourself

8 there through some other means?

9 A. Sulejman Tihic informed me that the topic of opening the bridge

10 would be discussed at that meeting. And I gladly agreed to attend this

11 meeting. Sulejman Tihic was the President of the SDA party.

12 Q. That's exactly what I'm interested in. Is the fact that he was

13 President of the SDA party of significance in the fact that you attended?

14 A. I attended that meeting because my company had an interest in it.

15 I was a non-party representative, speaking on behalf of the SDA party.

16 Q. Can you explain that idea to the Chamber. What does it mean to be

17 a non-party representative but nonetheless to speak on behalf of a party?

18 A. A non-party candidate means the following: This person is not a

19 member of the SDA party but it's possible for that person to participate

20 in certain meetings and, in certain circumstances, he is also expected to

21 address the meeting or say something.

22 Q. Did you have any instructions from the SDA or any representative

23 of the SDA as to any particular stance that you should adopt on any

24 particular issue at this meeting?

25 A. No, I didn't. And I requested at that meeting that a solution be

Page 6631

1 found, that a way be found, for the bridge across the river Sava to be

2 opened, otherwise, we would find ourselves in a situation that 500

3 employees of the company where I worked would lose their jobs and also

4 lose their means of living. We were not able to continue production in

5 these circumstances.

6 Q. Thank you?

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Di Fazio. That being said, the

8 witness had said on page 57, line 7, "non-party representative, speaking

9 on behalf of the SDA party," and then you went on to ask him what it means

10 to speak on behalf of a party as a non-party representative. But it now

11 appears in some of the later statements that the witness was not speaking

12 -- was not instructed by a party. So I'm wondering whether the earlier

13 reference on page 57 is just maybe something in the translation. So maybe

14 -- maybe you can identify was he speaking on behalf of the SDA, or was he

15 not speaking on behalf of the SDA.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I understand Your Honour's dilemma in the

17 evidence. I -- I'll do what I can do clarify that. I'm alive to the

18 issue.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe the company he worked for, did he -- was it a

20 company owned by SDA?

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. This business of the non-party representative of the SDA is

23 obviously troubling the Chamber, and we want to be absolutely clear about

24 what it means. You say that you had to go along as a non-party

25 representative. But it appears that you didn't adopt any stance or say

Page 6632

1 anything on behalf of the SDA. First of all, is that absolutely correct?

2 You made no statement or utterances that reflected SDA policy or SDA

3 positions or issues? If it's not correct, please tell the Chamber what

4 the true situation is.

5 A. In the local elections, I was a non-party candidate of the SDA.

6 I came to that meeting as a businessman in order to resolve the problem of

7 spare parts supplies. I used the fact that I knew Mr. Sulejman Tihic, and

8 I asked him to tell me when it would be possible to discuss the question

9 of opening of the Sava bridge to traffic, which is what he did.

10 Q. I see. Did you initiate the move to attend at the meeting?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You also said that in local elections, that you were a non-party

13 candidate of the SDA. First of all, did you ever stand for public office

14 in any elections?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Again, doing the best you can, can you explain as clearly as you

17 can to the Chamber what it means to be a non-party candidate of the SDA in

18 local elections.

19 A. There was the possibility that besides candidates of the national

20 parties, the party proposes a certain number of non-party candidates.

21 Q. I understand that it was a -- a political party could nominate

22 candidates, notwithstanding the fact that they were not members of that

23 party?

24 A. Yes, it could propose that they carry out certain duties within

25 the town or in the local community.

Page 6633

1 Q. Did you have political sympathies with the SDA, notwithstanding

2 the fact that you weren't actually a member?

3 A. I did not uphold or support the policies of any nationalist party.

4 Q. Did you initiate or take any moves to become what is known as a

5 non-party candidate of the SDA, or was that done for you?

6 A. Someone else, Izet Izetbegovic, asked me.

7 Q. What did he ask you?

8 A. Whether I would be willing to be a non-party candidate of the SDA,

9 in view of the fact that many people knew me in town and that this would

10 be good for the town.

11 Q. Did you agree to this?

12 A. I agreed to be a non-party candidate.

13 Q. What was the practical effect of your agreeing to do this? Did

14 anything actually happen as a result of you agreeing to do this?

15 A. When the local elections took place, they published a list of the

16 national parties. The SDA issued its own list, but they didn't separate

17 the non-party candidates.

18 Q. Does that mean that you would have appeared on that list as an SDA

19 member?

20 A. After the list was published, I made a remark. And after that,

21 there was an explanation that Perica Krstanovic was against placing non-

22 -- against separating the non-party candidates on the lists.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I don't know how far you

24 want me to pursue this topic. It's not of any great consequence of the

25 Prosecution. I don't know if you're satisfied with how far I've taken it.

Page 6634

1 JUDGE MUMBA: I think it's sufficient.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

3 Q. Can I ask you to turn your attention now to the meeting itself

4 that you were talking about earlier. And you said that Mr. Simo Zaric

5 spoke at that meeting.

6 I'd like you now to tell the Chamber what exactly, as far as you

7 can remember, he said at that meeting.

8 A. He said openly on that occasion that rumour had it in Samac that

9 there existed a 4th Detachment. He said it was true. He said such a

10 military formation did exist and that military formation belonged to a

11 military unit in the town of Brcko. Then he said that he could even state

12 the number of members of that unit, if the others were prepared to tell

13 him the number of the police in the national parties. By that time,

14 national parties had established their national police forces, and these

15 national police forces existed alongside the regular police in town.

16 Q. Yes. Did anyone else speak on that particular topic, apart from

17 him?

18 A. No, no one did.

19 Q. Can you recall if -- anything else he said, or is that the extent

20 of your recollection of what he said on that particular meeting?

21 A. He said that the 4th Detachment had been established as a military

22 group that was to protect the town of Samac, but he didn't say from whom.

23 Q. Was he asked? That is, was he asked from whom the town was to be

24 protected?

25 A. No one asked him that.

Page 6635

1 Q. Thank you. Again, have you now told the Chamber of all that you

2 can recall Mr. Simo Zaric saying at that particular meeting?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Delic, it's not beyond dispute -- sorry, it's not

5 in dispute in this case that in the months leading up to April of 1992,

6 there was considerable tension in the town of Bosanski Samac and that

7 people were armed -- some people were armed. Did you possess any weapons

8 in the period of time leading up to April of 1992?

9 A. I never possessed a weapon.

10 Q. Did you ever try to acquire a weapon in the time leading up to the

11 16th of April, 1992?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever join any patrols that might have been operating in

14 the town of Bosanski Samac or in the municipality?

15 A. Never.

16 Q. You are aware, I think, of a body called the TO, or Territorial

17 Defence. Did you ever join that body or seek to become an active member

18 of it?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Just returning now to your position at Mebos. I think you said

21 you were the managing director. Is that correct?

22 A. I was chairman of the board of directors. And in addition to

23 that, I dealt with all affairs related to technology and development.

24 Q. Did you have access to funds of the company in an uncontrolled

25 way, that is, at your own discretion?

Page 6636

1 A. No, I didn't.

2 Q. You've told the Chamber that you didn't own weapons or try to own

3 weapons. Did you ever try to purchase weapons on behalf of anyone else?

4 A. Never.

5 Q. Did you ever use Mebos funds to try and purchase weapons?

6 A. Never.

7 Q. Would it have been possible for you to use Mebos funds to purchase

8 weapons?

9 A. It wasn't possible.

10 Q. Prior to the 16th of April, 1992, had anyone spoken to you or

11 accused you of trying to purchase weapons on behalf of -- through the

12 offices or the agency of Mebos?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did anyone else at Mebos purchase weapons in the period of time

15 leading up to the 16th of April, 1992, to your knowledge?

16 A. No.

17 Q. I now want you to turn your attention to the events of the night

18 of the 16th and 17th of April, 1992, please. First of all, at the time,

19 were you residing somewhere in the actual town of Bosanski Samac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What sort of place was it? Was it an apartment or a separate

22 house standing by itself?

23 A. It was a house with two apartments in it. It was owned by the

24 organisation where I worked, that is, by my employer. One employee of the

25 same company occupied the ground floor, and I occupied the first floor.

Page 6637

1 Q. Who was the person who occupied the ground floor?

2 A. It was an employee of the maintenance unit, Josip Josarevic --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Asim Josarevic. Sorry.


5 Q. So was it a two-storey building, two apartments, you're in one of

6 them and the other fellow was down below; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like you to describe to the Chamber what

9 you saw and heard during the night of the 16th and 17th of April, 1992.

10 And I'm not talking about the day of the 17th. I'm talking about the

11 night. The night.

12 A. The night -- the night of the 17th of April, two or three hours

13 after midnight, an explosion was heard, followed by a number of shots.

14 And then after a while, everything went quiet. I stayed inside with my

15 family, waiting for the morning.

16 Q. Thank you. And what did you see in the morning?

17 A. The next morning, a neighbour, Perica Krstanovic, knocked on my

18 door and told me to come out immediately, to come outside. And when I did

19 so, there was a vehicle on the other side of the street and a group of

20 five to six men in camouflage uniforms. They beckoned me to come up to

21 them.

22 Q. Thank you. Can I just interrupt you there. This man Krstanovic,

23 what ethnic background was he? And secondly, where did he work? What was

24 the name of his employer?

25 A. Perica Krstanovic is a Serb by ethnicity. He was the director of

Page 6638

1 the electrical company in Bosanski Samac.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, please continue. You were describing the scene.

3 You'd seen a group of men in camouflage uniforms and they beckoned to

4 you. Did you approach them? And if so, carry on the story from there.

5 A. When I approached, the men in camouflage uniforms had their faces

6 painted with some sort of black cream. They had black caps, and they had

7 their arms cocked and ready to shoot. They asked me what my name was.

8 And when I answered, they asked me, "Are you a Serb?" I said no. I said

9 I was a Muslim. They asked me if I had any weapons inside my home. I

10 said no. They asked me to swear to that, and I said, "I do swear." Then

11 they said, "Swear on your mother's name." And I said, "I do swear on my

12 mother's name."

13 Q. Can you comment on the accent that they spoke with?

14 A. They spoke the Ekavian dialect which is spoken in Serbia.

15 Q. Thank you. And do you know a gentleman named Muharem

16 Bajrektarevic?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. Was he mentioned that morning on this occasion?

19 A. At that moment, Muharem Bajrektarevic was not standing outside

20 his front door. And one of the members of the special unit asked, "Where

21 is the man from that house?" Somebody replied that he was probably in the

22 basement. Then that man said, "He should be told to get out of the

23 basement immediately, because if he doesn't, we will deal with him the

24 same way we dealt with such things in Vukovar. We'll throw a bomb." And

25 Vukovar is in Croatia.

Page 6639

1 Q. These men in camouflage uniforms speaking with the Ekavian

2 dialect, were they accompanied by any local people, any local people that

3 you recognised? Or were they apparently on their own?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you not hear my question? Shall I repeat it?

6 A. There were no locals among them.

7 Q. Thank you. Did the men in camouflage uniforms succeed in flushing

8 out Mr. Barjaktarevic?

9 A. Later, somebody went around the back of the house and informed him

10 that he should come.

11 Q. About how old was this gentleman, Mr. Barjaktarevic, and secondly,

12 of what ethnic background?

13 A. He was about 65 years old, and he is a Muslim.

14 Q. Now, was there anything in the scene that you saw when you were

15 out on the street to indicate that the resident of that house was missing?

16 A. I didn't understand the question.

17 Q. Okay. Let me put it this way: Was there anything that you could

18 see that showed that the people gathered on the street did not include the

19 resident of the house of Mr. Barjaktarevic, in other words, that he was

20 missing, that he wasn't there?

21 A. There was nobody standing in front of his house, and that's why

22 they reacted and asked where the man occupying that house was. I suppose

23 that they knew in advance who lived where, in which house. And on the

24 basis of that knowledge when they were questioning me, I think they knew

25 what my answers would be in advance.

Page 6640

1 Q. That's precisely the issue I'm interested in. You say that you

2 suppose that they knew in advance who lived where. Thinking back now, is

3 there anything that you can point to that led you to that conclusion or to

4 that suspicion?

5 A. Muslims were standing in front of their houses. And when there

6 was nobody outside a certain house, they would react immediately.

7 Q. Could you see any Serbs standing outside or lined up outside their

8 houses in the same manner that Muslims were lined up or standing outside?

9 A. Only my neighbour Perica, the one who asked me to come out in the

10 first place.

11 Q. What was he doing?

12 A. He was standing at the gate to his garden, his yard.

13 Q. Did you see him questioned by the men in camouflage as to his

14 possession of weapons?

15 A. They didn't question him. And judging by his behaviour, I thought

16 he wasn't excited or surprised, or anxious. You couldn't detect any fear

17 in him.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, you've told us that the men asked you about

19 whether or not you had guns, made you swear, and then asked about the

20 elderly gentleman, Mr. Barjaktarevic. Did they eventually accept your

21 explanation that you didn't have weapons and let you go?

22 A. In the meantime, over the radio unit through which they

23 communicated with other members of their unit, somebody interfered with

24 their communication. And then this member of the special unit yelled at

25 the person who was interfering, cursed his Ustasha mother, and said that

Page 6641

1 unless he gets out of the way immediately, he will shoot everyone in the

2 street. After that, he yelled again and said, "Listen, you all. Not a

3 single shot must be fired from this street. If a single shot is fired,

4 I'll have you all killed." When somebody asked, "And what happens if

5 somebody else shoots," he answered, "You have to prevent it."

6 Later they continued in their military vehicle and left our

7 street.

8 Q. Did you see where they went?

9 A. When they arrived at the first intersection, one of them motioned

10 with his hand towards a restaurant.

11 Q. What restaurant was that and who owned it, and what ethnic

12 background was the person who owned it?

13 A. The restaurant was owned by Atif, Rajec. He was a Muslim and a

14 member of the SDA. When I returned to my home --

15 Q. Thank you. Carry on your account of things. I want to hear what

16 happened as they got to the end of the street and the man pointed at Atif,

17 Rajec's restaurant. Tell us what happened.

18 A. When they reached the end of the street, people had already

19 started going back inside their homes. And ten minutes later, we could

20 hear an explosion.

21 The next day, I heard from my neighbour, Barjaktarevic, that a

22 grenade was thrown -- had been thrown on the restaurant that I just

23 mentioned.

24 Q. Was the restaurant destroyed, as far as you're aware?

25 A. From the description I heard, the lower part of the restaurant was

Page 6642

1 destroyed because it was mainly made of glass, and could not be used any

2 more.

3 Q. I take it from your answer that the destruction of the restaurant

4 was something that was reported to you and not something that you were

5 able to observe with your own eyes.

6 A. No, I didn't see it with my own eyes.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours, please, I'm going to move on to

8 another topic now, events of the following day. I recall what you said

9 yesterday about the Status Conference. It's a little early by a few

10 minutes, but it is Friday afternoon, after all, and if you would like to

11 proceed to that now, this would be a convenient time, as far as I'm

12 concerned.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

14 Witness, we will continue with your evidence on Monday, at 14.15

15 hours. You'll be led out of the courtroom for now.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 -- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

18 5.43 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

19 the 4th day of March, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.







Page 6643