Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7145

1 Thursday, 18 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused M. Simic not present]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case Number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Before re-examination, there is a matter that the

12 Registry assistant raised with the Trial Chamber before we came into the

13 courtroom regarding the map that was discussed with the witness by

14 Mr. Pantelic. We wanted to be clear on record, we gave it a number as an

15 identified document only so that it's not produced, it's not part of the

16 evidence. Is that satisfactory, Mr. Pantelic?

17 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. It's satisfactory.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. The other point is that the witness did

19 make markings, but then there is no key as to what represents what, so we

20 were wondering whether we can go through that again and so that he marks

21 one represents this, two represents this, three and four and five, even

22 though it's not being produced as part of the record, because in the event

23 of an appeal, and the Appeals Chamber may want to look at it so it be

24 clear, it must make sense. So perhaps you can go through that again, the

25 document -- the map will be given to the witness and then you can ask him

Page 7146

1 to mark 1, 2, whatever, so that it makes sense.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I absolutely concur with your

3 approach. Yes.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter

6 Further cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzijusufovic, let us deal with this as best

8 we can. You made a circle around the area of Grebnice, didn't you? If

9 you will please look at the map, this ellipse here. Just put number 1 on

10 the Grebnice area.

11 A. Why would I mark this as Grebnice? Because Grebnice stretches

12 upwards, as far as I know. The map is rather unintelligible. I would

13 prefer to make a drawing for you indicating the spot where I worked.

14 Anyway, it's not a problem. I'll make a circle around whatever you want.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, we are not reviewing the evidence you gave

16 yesterday or the markings of that map. We just want to complete it as it

17 is for whatever it's worth. So you are being asked to make markings by

18 the Prosecutor -- to place numbers so that it makes sense with the

19 record. So you are not being asked to redraw anything; it's just putting

20 one where you placed whatever circle according to the direction of the

21 counsel.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand you.

23 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Hadzijusufovic, put number 1 to mark Grebnice, number 2 to

25 mark Lijeskovac, number 3 to mark Brvnik, and number 4 on the line that

Page 7147

1 you drew in this area above Grebnice marking Tursinovac. Put number 4

2 there.

3 A. [Marks]

4 MR. PANTELIC: [In English] Okay, for the records, Your Honours,

5 the witness marked with number 1 a place called the name Grebnice. With

6 number 2, place Lijeskovac. With number 3, place Brvnik. And with number

7 4, place Tursinovac, which is the bank of the Sava River.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. That's okay.

9 MR. PANTELIC: It's okay now, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: So it remains numbered for identification only.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: So we proceed with re-examination by Mr. Weiner.

13 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

14 Re-examined by Mr. Weiner:

15 Q. Good afternoon.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. Yesterday, some questions were asked concerning your being

18 convicted and sentenced to one year. For what were you convicted, as best

19 you know?

20 A. From what I learned, it was a violation of the borders of

21 Republika Srpska.

22 Q. Were you ever notified of any charges being brought against you,

23 any official notification, sir?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you ever served with a complaint?

Page 7148

1 A. No.

2 Q. Advised of any rights?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Provided counsel or told to obtain counsel?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you ever appear at any hearing or at any trial?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you receive any official notice of any judgment or a sentence?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And were you notified of any right to appeal?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Let's go on to some other matters which were raised in the past

13 few days. Do you know a man by the name of Sveto Vaskonic? Did I

14 pronounce the name Sveto?

15 A. Vasovic. I do know him.

16 Q. How long have you known Sveto Vasovic?

17 A. Since he moved to Samac, for about 15 years or so.

18 Q. And what, if any, relationship did you have with him? Were you

19 friends, neighbours? What relationship, sir?

20 A. We were friends from the football club. We would talk when we ran

21 into each other.

22 Q. And you indicated to counsel that you went to see him some ten

23 times about getting exchanged. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what did he tell you when you asked him on all those

Page 7149

1 occasions? How did he respond to you?

2 A. He will put my name on the list. That's all he can do. And

3 Miroslav Tadic is the one who decides about it.

4 Q. And where was his office located, sir, in relation to the

5 defendant Miroslav Tadic?

6 A. When you go up the stairs, Miroslav Tadic's office is straight

7 ahead; and on the right-hand side next to it is Sveto Vasovic's office.

8 Q. And did Sveto Vasovic tell you who was in charge of the exchanges?

9 A. Yes, he did.

10 Q. Who did he tell you was in charge, sir?

11 A. Miroslav Tadic.

12 Q. Let's move on to your exchange. Now, you said when questioned by

13 Defence counsel that you were the first off the bus or the first in line.

14 Could you explain that, please. Is that, sir? You were the --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Why were you the first off the bus or the first in line?

17 A. Because I knew from speaking to the people who were coming from

18 exchanges in Dubica and elsewhere that if the opposite side, or if one of

19 the sides, had extra people who didn't want to be exchanged, then it could

20 happen that some people on the other side do not get exchanged.

21 Q. So you wanted to ensure that you would become exchanged. Correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, on the occasion of your exchange, was anyone prevented from

24 being exchanged on that -- at that time?

25 A. We were told so when we arrived there. A man came to address us

Page 7150

1 and said that the exchange was successful, but that two persons remained

2 and were not exchanged. Two persons stayed behind.

3 Q. When you say two persons, two persons from what area stayed

4 behind?

5 A. Those two men were supposed to cross over together with me, to

6 cross over the line into Croatia.

7 Q. And was there a reason why they weren't exchanged?

8 A. He didn't tell us.

9 Q. Let's move on, sir. You were also questioned by counsel

10 concerning your being forced to loot homes in the Odzak area and what

11 happened to that furniture. They asked you about the furniture which went

12 to Dubica. All those items, the furniture, the appliances, the electrical

13 equipment that was looted and that was brought to Bosanski Samac, do you

14 know the people who received that furniture and all those other items?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. And were these refugees from other areas?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just ask my

19 learned friend from the Prosecution to clarify which of the Defence

20 counsel had asked these questions, because in redirect, questions may be

21 asked only in reference to the questions that had been asked in

22 cross-examination.

23 MR. PANTELIC: And also another matter, Your Honours. I think the

24 term "looting" is not appropriate for the use in this examination. I

25 mean, that's a rather legal question. So I kindly ask our friend from the

Page 7151

1 Prosecution to adjust this term, please. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, it may be too much to ask Prosecution

3 counsel to always point out which Defence counsel raised the question,

4 because the record is clear. And if you follow the transcript and you

5 find that actually in cross-examination nobody raised that, then you are

6 entitled to raise it with the Trial Chamber. But that particularization

7 is not necessary. And on the use of the word "looting," Mr. Weiner,

8 what's your submission on that?

9 MR. WEINER: We have been using looting from the start. I think

10 it is a situation of looting. If you like, I can use theft, theft of

11 property instead.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Zecevic, is it some point you want to make a

13 submission on?

14 MR. ZECEVIC: If it may please the Court, I would just like an

15 explanation. The point which Mr. Lukic was making is that, in fact,

16 nobody brought this during the cross-examination. That is why Mr. Lukic

17 was asking the our colleagues to say whether it was brought in the

18 cross-examination, because according to the Defence teams over here,

19 nobody brought these questions about the looting of the property or

20 whatever during the cross-examination. And that was the point, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. He didn't make it clear. It wasn't --

23 MR. ZECEVIC: That is why I wanted to assist the Trial Chamber.

24 Because I saw that it was a misunderstanding. Mr. Lukic brought this up

25 asking the Prosecutor to say who out of the Defence teams particularly put

Page 7152

1 these questions to the witness during the cross-examination, because

2 according to our knowledge, they were not put.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Then that is clearer, Mr. --

4 MR. PANTELIC: Also, Your Honour, if I may --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.

6 MR. PANTELIC: -- maybe an appropriate term would be a "seizure,"

7 because the other approach to this matter might be that during the war,

8 there are certain regulations, war regulations, where for example military

9 command is absolutely entitled, according to the military law, to collect

10 all goods in the area. So maybe the other term which could be a seizure

11 or collection or something like that, would be appropriate. More

12 appropriate. Thank you.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. I think the point being made here

14 is that it's a matter which is going to be decided by the Trial Chamber

15 whether or not anybody had the authority to collect the goods, clear the

16 homes or the houses and that sort of thing, so that when you question the

17 witness, make it a neutral term.

18 MR. WEINER: I'll use seizure.

19 With regard to the other issue, Your Honour, Mr. Lukic brought up

20 the matter of where the goods were taken, and he tried to raise an

21 impression with the witness that it was brought -- the goods were brought

22 to refugees thereafter. And I would just like to talk about Bosanski

23 Samac where this gentleman was from and ask him who received the goods and

24 let him tell you about -- let him tell the Court about how these goods

25 were, in fact, distributed.

Page 7153

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, my questions

3 referred only to firewood.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

5 MR. WEINER: My view was --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you check the record.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 MR. WEINER: I'll move on while we find it.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: So you leave that point.


11 Q. Very quickly, sir, yesterday, the name Pero Pita was mentioned by

12 Mr. Zecevic just about at the end of the day.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And is that the mentally handicapped gentleman from Bosanski

15 Samac?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, also yesterday, you were shown an exhibit, a notice to report

18 for military service. Do you recall that, sir?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that was apparently the second notice that you had received?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How many notices had you received to report for military service?

23 A. Three.

24 Q. And for what army did you receive the notices?

25 A. The army of Republika Srpska.

Page 7154

1 Q. Now, who was the army of Republika Srpska fighting?

2 A. Croats and Muslims.

3 Q. And what ethnic group, are you, sir?

4 A. I'm a Muslim.

5 Q. Did you want to fight against your own people, sir?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. I didn't want to fight at all.

9 MR. WEINER: One moment, Your Honour.

10 Your Honour, I don't have it at this time. I can go back to my

11 office. The easiest thing I can say is he raised the issue of refugees.

12 Mr. Pantelic also raised the issue of refugees, and they also raised the

13 issue of looting, and I felt that they left the impression that the

14 matters that were looted or seized or however you want to refer to it were

15 taken to the refugees, and that's all I wanted to clear up.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic's point was the reference to property

17 being taken, rightly or wrongly, was only to firewood, as raised in

18 cross-examination.

19 MR. WEINER: Then I would refer to that. May I at least have the

20 right ask the witness who got the firewood back in Bosanski Samac, was it

21 the refugees or the local citizens.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.

23 MR. WEINER: Thank you, ma'am.

24 Q. Now, sir, the persons who received the firewood in Bosanski Samac

25 that you seized from other villages and other municipalities, who were

Page 7155

1 they?

2 A. They were ethnic Serbs. I drove firewood to shops and to those

3 women up there, and I remember now they had lived in Samac for a long

4 time. They were two sisters. One was called Mara, and I don't know the

5 other's name.

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour --

7 A. If you allow me just one more thing, if I may say something about

8 this.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About this seizure, as they call it,

11 for the benefit of the refugees, I went to the house of Tovarice when you

12 are going in the direction of Tisina, it's the first house on the left

13 after the bridge. That man was living in his own house. He was not a

14 refugee and I brought him a complete irrigation system, complete with a

15 pump and engine. That is just one small detail, one of the many things

16 that I delivered to him.


18 Q. And this person who received this property, the seized property,

19 was this person a refugee without any property?

20 A. No.

21 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, on page 7001 -- actually it starts at

22 page 7.000:

23 Q. When leaving, when going and taking, removing property from

24 family homes, did the -- were the owners present there?

25 A. No.

Page 7156

1 Q. In your opinion was it abandoned property?

2 Then there was an objection regarding to the objectionable -- we

3 got into a difference of opinion on that, and you told us to move on.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, so the term used was "property."

5 MR. WEINER: And then it continues. The property question.

6 Q. "The property that you were removing, that you were taking,

7 was it usually most frequently given to refugees and the persons

8 who had no property whatsoever?

9 And the witness then asked, "Are you talking about Samac or

10 Dubica?" And he said "Dubica." I just want to show the rest in Samac

11 where he is familiar with his neighbours, who got the property.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: So it's also inclusive, because property includes

13 furniture.

14 MR. WEINER: Yes.

15 Q. Sir, let's go back to the property matter. The property which was

16 seized from the houses, the furniture, the appliances, the electrical

17 appliances that was brought back to Bosanski Samac, who received this

18 property?

19 A. Well, most of it was given to Rada, called Rada Specijalka, the

20 mother of Mile Pancir. I took most of this to her.

21 Q. Other than Mile Pancir's mother, did you ever bring property to a

22 home, any furniture to a home, that had a large number of similar-type

23 property there?

24 A. Well, I moved a family who lived close in proximity to Mebos where

25 there was a restaurant. That man was living along the gate of Mebos. The

Page 7157

1 owner of the building rented two homes. Well, I helped to move him to an

2 apartment building in proximity of the retirement home. That was, I

3 participated in that, and the other person, my school friend known as "the

4 Chinese." I think they moved to the fourth floor. So I moved his

5 belongings from those two rooms, of very poor quality, worn, rundown, and

6 he moved into this apartment. I don't know to whom that belonged

7 previously. Probably a Catholic, but I cannot say anything precise about

8 that. But in that apartment, we found furniture which was much, much

9 better than what he had. We were going up the stairs with his items, and

10 this was exactly across the road from the retirement home. It was also a

11 tall building of a few floors. That's all.

12 Q. The seized property that you obtained, did you give it -- were you

13 giving it to refugees?

14 A. To the refugees, I don't know. I know -- I knew a few of these

15 refugees, but I wasn't taking it to them. I knew all the people to whom I

16 was taking the items with the exception of two or three people. But the

17 refugees were mainly housed in the buildings and apartments and homes

18 which were already furnished. The home of my father was then a refugee

19 lived in that apartment which was completely furnished. Everything

20 remained in these apartments. It's only the owners who left.

21 Q. When you say the home of your father, was that when he was removed

22 from his home and sent to Zasavica?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Finally, did he give anyone permission to move into his home and

25 use his furniture and other personal items?

Page 7158

1 A. No.

2 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I would like just to for

5 the record to file an objection to the -- I didn't raise it because I

6 thought that it would -- I didn't want to interrupt my learned colleague,

7 because I thought it would be maybe deemed as the abuse of my right,

8 because we are objecting maybe too much. But it was quite inappropriate,

9 quite inappropriate question concerning the mental state of one of the --

10 of one Pero Pita posed to this witness, because this witness is not an

11 expert. And according to my knowledge, this Mr. Pero Pita, which the

12 reference was made, is having a family and he is working normally, so I

13 don't think that was a proper question from the Prosecutor's side posed to

14 this witness about the mental health of a third person. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, there has been previous testimony

17 concerning this Pero Pita, and there was previous testimony that he had

18 certain mental disabilities. And even in this testimony here, they said

19 that he got a job, but they would never allow him to carry a gun which was

20 consistent with the previous testimony that it was a mentally disabled

21 person whose name was listed on a work list of some kind.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And the Trial Chamber obviously require a

23 medical report if any finding was to be made, and it's the matter which

24 the Defence can take up during their case. Because the what witness has

25 stated is only limited to his own observation of the individual concerned.

Page 7159

1 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours. But it was not -- the

2 way how the question was posed was -- it's in the transcript, it's page

3 9.11, until 9.13. The question was: "This Pero Pita, is this a mentally

4 handicapped person?" And then the witness answered "yes." It was put to

5 him --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. Your objection it was a direct -- it was a

7 leading question, rather.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: It is a leading question, moreover, and in my

9 opinion, it was not appropriate. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Your objection is observed.

11 You are through, Mr. Weiner?

12 MR. WEINER: Yes.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much for giving evidence to the

14 Tribunal. We have now completed, and you may leave the courtroom.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, in the meantime while the next

17 witness is coming, I would like to report a problem with the display of

18 the first monitor.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Which monitor?

20 MR. PANTELIC: This one in front of our Bench.


22 MR. PANTELIC: And if the technical people can check during the

23 break what is going on. When we want to have a video vision here,

24 suddenly it is changed to transcript. We have numerous problems with

25 that. We have to stand and then to disturb the trial proceedings. So we

Page 7160

1 would kindly ask if the technical people can check that during the break

2 what's going on with this monitor.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: You have your own monitor.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, but we are following the transcripts here, you

5 know, with the PC and the official monitor. I mean, for the time being

6 it's okay, but if during the break they can check that, it would be of

7 assistance for us.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: You just want to use that monitor for the video.

9 That's all.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, that's all. And normally, it was okay until

11 today. But probably something is happening. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: You must understand that the people who control what

13 is viewed have got their own rules which they comply with, all right. And

14 that cannot be changed by the Trial Chamber unless it is occasioning some

15 problem, some prejudice. And the point is in practice, you are entitled

16 to only one monitor.

17 You remember the question you raised on identification. I think

18 it was yourself.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I remember, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: So that monitor has to be controlled by the people

21 responsible because nobody is using, whereas the monitor you are using is

22 controlled by yourself. You can switch to the video, you can switch to

23 the transcript. So you have no right actually to use two monitors.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Okay, Your Honour. I understand. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the next witness, please.

Page 7161

1 MR. PANTELIC: In the meantime maybe we can follow our practice

2 about the position of the defendants. They can swap up, please.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, they can swap before the witness is brought

4 into the courtroom.

5 Can the witness be taken outside for a moment. Just for a moment.

6 Yes, the accused persons can switch places. They can switch.

7 They know whoever sits where. That's fine. Thank you.

8 The usher can now bring the witness into the courtroom.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, please make your solemn declaration.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Please sit down.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

17 MR. Di FAZIO: Thank you.

18 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

19 Q. Is your brother Esad Dagovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The same Esad Dagovic who gave evidence in this case some weeks

22 ago?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Just answer the next question with a yes or a no. Are you now

25 residing in a European country?

Page 7162

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean outside the Balkans?

3 MR. Di FAZIO: Yes, I should have clarified that. Outside the

4 Balkans and in a European country.

5 Q. Are you living in a European country outside of the Balkans?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where were you born?

8 A. In Bosanski Samac.

9 Q. Was the remainder of your family born there?

10 A. Yes, they were.

11 Q. How many generations of Dagovics have lived in Bosanski Samac?

12 I'm referring to your parents, grandparents, going back, and so on.

13 A. A few generations. My parents, my grandparents. A few

14 generations.

15 Q. Were you educated in Bosanski Samac?

16 A. Yes, I was.

17 Q. What level of education did you attain?

18 A. Secondary school.

19 Q. Did you perform military service in the former Yugoslavia?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. When was that?

22 A. In 1984.

23 Q. And did you specialise in anything in particular during your year

24 of military service?

25 A. No, I did not.

Page 7163

1 Q. After you finished school, what sort of work did you do?

2 A. I worked in a factory in Bosanski Samac as a tool mechanic.

3 Q. How long did you do that for?

4 A. Approximately eight years.

5 Q. In April of 1992, what sort of work were you doing?

6 A. I was working in the private sector at the time.

7 Q. Tell the Chamber what sort of work in the private sector you were

8 doing. Just go into a bit more detail, please.

9 A. I worked in a casino where we had poker slot machines and similar

10 devices.

11 Q. Would it also be apt to describe this place as a games arcade?

12 A. Yes, it would.

13 Q. Who owned this place?

14 A. Hasan Bicic.

15 Q. And does he have a brother called Muhamed?

16 A. Yes, he does.

17 Q. Were you friends with those two men?

18 A. Yes, I was.

19 Q. What about your brother Esad? Was he friends with them as well?

20 A. Yes, he was.

21 Q. Were you a member of any political party in April of 1992?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. What party was that, and when did you join it?

24 A. The Party of Democrat Action, and I joined it in 1990.

25 Q. And is it fair to say that that party was aligned with the Muslim

Page 7164

1 community in Bosnia?

2 A. Yes, in a certain sense, yes.

3 Q. Had you achieved any rank in the party as at April of 1992?

4 A. No. I was just an ordinary member of the SDA party.

5 Q. Had you served on any committees or taken part in any political

6 activities on behalf the SDA?

7 A. No, I did not.

8 Q. Had you participated in any military activity organised on behalf

9 the SDA?

10 A. No, I did not.

11 Q. Was your brother a member of the SDA?

12 A. Yes, he was.

13 Q. What about your father?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If asked how to describe your ethnic background, what would you

16 say?

17 A. Bosniak.

18 MR. Di FAZIO: Could the witness be shown D14/4 ter ID, please.

19 This document, I believe, if Your Honours please, has not been translated

20 yet. It's a Defence document, so I'll just ask the -- I think it's fairly

21 easy to understand. It's just the title, and I'll ask the witness to run

22 through the title of the document.

23 May I see the original itself just before it's given to the

24 witness. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: It's a Defence document. Why hasn't it been

Page 7165

1 translated yet?

2 MR. Di FAZIO: It may have been, but I don't think the Prosecution

3 has --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe the Defence counsel concerned --

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honours. I can confirm that it has been

6 translated, and I can provide the Court, Trial Chamber with the

7 translation, official translation during the break. We were just waiting

8 for an appropriate moment to bring the translation of this document. We

9 didn't expect that this is going to be tendered today by the Prosecution.

10 But we do have an official translation of this document.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have it then.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: I don't have it here. It is actually in the

13 Defence counsel room in our locker. So during the break, we will bring it

14 here.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll have it after the break.

16 MR. Di FAZIO: I don't think it will trouble the Chamber much. It

17 really consists of a list and the heading at the top, and once I get the

18 heading translated, the rest is just names. So it shouldn't bother us

19 unduly

20 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You can proceed then.

21 MR. Di FAZIO:

22 Q. Witness, would you please read out the heading of this document,

23 the first page.

24 A. A list of self-organised inhabitants of Bosanski Samac engaged in

25 the defence of the city.

Page 7166

1 Q. And I believe you've already had an opportunity outside of the

2 courtroom to cast your eye through the names on this list. Have you not?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Can you tell us what ethnic background the majority of the names

5 are.

6 A. Muslims.

7 Q. Thanks. Go to 154 and 156, and you see the name Safet Dagovic and

8 Esad Dagovic, and next to that Pere Bosica. Do you see that?

9 A. Yes. I see it.

10 Q. I assume that's you and your brother, and that Pere Bosica is the

11 street that your family used to live in in April 1992. Is that right?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to who created this document or as to

14 why your name and your brother's name appear in it?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio, those are two distinct questions, and

16 the answers to both are important.

17 MR. Di FAZIO: I'll split it in two.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.

19 MR. Di FAZIO:

20 Q. Do you have any idea who made that document, how it came into

21 being?

22 A. No, I don't.

23 Q. Do you have any idea why your names, that is your name and your

24 brother's name appear in the document?

25 A. I do not know.

Page 7167

1 Q. Until you arrived in The Hague to give evidence, had you ever seen

2 that document before?

3 A. No. I'm seeing it now for the first time.

4 Q. Thank you. I'm finished with the document.

5 Do you know a gentleman named Blagoje Simic?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. About how long would you say that you have known him?

8 A. A few years.

9 Q. Can you describe your relationship with him. Was it a close one,

10 one of acquaintances, or did you just know him by sight?

11 A. I knew him just by sight.

12 Q. Have a look around the courtroom, see if you can pick him out. If

13 you can, identify him.

14 A. The gentleman in a blue suit, a blue tie, and a beard.

15 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Miroslav Tadic?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. About how long have you known him?

18 A. Approximately as long as Mr. Blagoje Simic.

19 Q. Did you know him when you went to school?

20 A. Yes, I did, but only for a short period of time.

21 Q. Did he have any connection with your school?

22 A. While I was attending the secondary school, Mr. Tadic was teaching

23 me one of the subjects.

24 Q. Have a look around the courtroom and go through the same exercise

25 again. See if you can identify him.

Page 7168

1 A. The gentleman sitting in the middle with a moustache and glasses.

2 Q. And do you know a gentleman named Simo Zaric?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. How long have you known him?

5 A. Some years.

6 Q. And can you comment on your relationship with him? Was it a close

7 one, one of mere acquaintances, or did you just know him by sight?

8 A. I knew him just by sight.

9 Q. See if you can identify him.

10 A. The third gentleman with grey hair, glasses, and sitting.

11 MR. Di FAZIO: If Your Honours please, can the record reflect that

12 the witness has correctly identified those three defendants, please.


14 MR. Di FAZIO:

15 Q. Do you know a man named Milan Simic?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. How long have you known him?

18 A. Well, approximately as long as the other gentlemen.

19 Q. Think back to 1992, about how long would you say you had known him

20 then?

21 A. You're thinking before the war, the period before the war.

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. A few years.

24 Q. Think of it in this way: Would you say that you knew him when you

25 were a child? Would you say you knew him when you were a teenager, or

Page 7169

1 would you say you got to know of him when you became an adult?

2 A. When I became an adult.

3 Q. And prior to the 16th of April, 1992, did you own or possess any

4 weapons?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Prior to the 16th of April, 1992, had you engaged in any patrols

7 organised by any body or organ, patrols that were operating in the

8 Bosanski Samac area?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I want to take you to the events of the night of the 16th and

11 17th. But perhaps before I do, I should ask you a few more questions

12 about weapons. Did your brother own any weapons?

13 A. Yes, he did.

14 Q. What sort of weapon did he own?

15 A. He had a pistol.

16 Q. What about your father? Did he have any sort of weapon?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thanks.

19 Now, let's go to the night of the 16th and 17th of April. Were

20 you in Bosanski Samac on that night?

21 A. Yes, I was.

22 Q. Did you hear any disturbances or -- yes, did you hear any

23 disturbances during the evening?

24 A. Yes, I could hear the shooting.

25 Q. When did that start?

Page 7170

1 A. At night, from the 16th to the 17th.

2 Q. Did you know what was going on?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. Did you attempt to find out what was going on?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. Why was that?

7 A. I was afraid. I didn't know what was going on. We could hear a

8 lot of strong shooting.

9 Q. Okay. The following morning, that is, the morning of the 17th,

10 did you ascertain what had been happening during the night?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What did you do on the 17th?

13 A. On the 17th, I went, I left to go to work. And I saw that the

14 military were moving around the town, and then I returned home.

15 Q. What sort of military did you see?

16 A. They were members of the 4th Detachment, and there were soldiers

17 wearing camouflage uniforms and grey olive drab uniforms. I didn't know

18 who they were.

19 Q. The people who you saw in the 4th Detachment on the 17th, were

20 those people who were obviously known to you, local people, people from

21 Bosanski Samac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you stay at home when you returned there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Throughout the remainder of the 17th, was there any sort of

Page 7171

1 military activity around your house or in the street outside your house or

2 in the area of Bosanski Samac in which you lived?

3 A. There was, in a part of Bosanski Samac.

4 Q. Is that part of Bosanski Samac close to where you lived, or was

5 that somewhere more distant from your home?

6 A. More distant.

7 Q. Did you actually see what was happening there, or was it something

8 that you heard about or was informed of?

9 A. We heard gunfire.

10 Q. Thanks. Did you stay at home on the night of the 17th?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I want you to turn your attention to the events on the following

13 day, the 18th of April. On the 18th of April, was your entire family at

14 home?

15 A. Yes, they were.

16 Q. And incidentally, your family consists in its entirety of you,

17 your brother, and your parents, mother and your father?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did anything happen on the 18th?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What happened?

22 A. On the 18th of April, members of the 4th Detachment came to my

23 house and asked us to turn over our weapons.

24 Q. All right. Thinking back, would you say that they arrived in the

25 morning or in the afternoon or in the evening of the 18th?

Page 7172

1 A. I think it was around noon. It was daytime.

2 Q. Okay. Did you see these 4th Detachment members in your street

3 prior to their arriving at your house?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. How did you see them? How were you able to see them?

6 A. Because all the houses in the vicinity of my own belonged to

7 Muslims, and I saw them through my window going from one house to the

8 next.

9 Q. Were there any Serbs living in the vicinity of your home?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, you say you saw them, the soldiers, going from house to

12 house. Did they enter Muslim houses, that is, houses owned by members of

13 the Muslim faith?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you notice if they entered homes owned by ethnic Serbs?

16 A. No, they didn't.

17 Q. Are there any apartment blocks close to your home?

18 A. Yes, there was one apartment block.

19 Q. Where was that in relation to your home?

20 A. On the right, looking from my house.

21 Q. Could you see it from your house?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was it inhabited by both members of -- by both Muslims and Serbs?

24 A. Yes, it was.

25 Q. Did you notice if members of the 4th Detachment went to that

Page 7173

1 apartment block?

2 A. They entered, yes.

3 Q. Did you notice if they went into the homes or the apartments, I

4 should say, of the Muslims in that apartment block?

5 A. Yes, they entered Muslim apartments.

6 Q. Can you tell the Chamber if they entered the apartments owned by

7 Serbs in that particular apartment block?

8 A. No, they didn't.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, you say that they eventually arrived at your

10 house. Were they accompanied by any vehicles?

11 A. Yes, there was a tank with them.

12 Q. Yours was a house, a free-standing house, not part of an

13 apartment. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. Did it have like a little front yard?

16 A. Yes, it had a front yard.

17 Q. How many soldiers came to your house?

18 A. About 10 to 15 soldiers.

19 Q. What did they do? Go through this slowly, and giving us the

20 detail, please.

21 A. When they came to the courtyard, they called my brother and myself

22 out into the yard.

23 Q. What did they want?

24 A. They asked us to turn over our weapons.

25 Q. Did you do that?

Page 7174

1 A. Yes, my brother turned over his gun.

2 Q. Gun or pistol? Was it a pistol, a hand weapon, a handgun?

3 A. It was a pistol.

4 Q. Were your parents there? That is, standing around, aware of what

5 was going on?

6 A. Our parents were outside, that is, they had come outside, but they

7 told them to go back inside.

8 Q. Who told them to go back inside?

9 A. Those soldiers.

10 Q. Were the soldiers armed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Heavily armed?

13 A. Yes. They had automatic rifles.

14 Q. Where was the armoured vehicle or tank or whatever it was in

15 relation to your house?

16 A. The tank was in the street headed -- that is, facing my front

17 yard.

18 Q. Now, you said that these soldiers were members of the 4th

19 Detachment. Were they local men, men from Bosanski Samac?

20 A. Yes, they were.

21 Q. Did you notice if any of the defendants were amongst them?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who? Which ones? Which defendants were there?

24 A. Mr. Tadic and Mr. Simo Zaric.

25 Q. What were they doing?

Page 7175

1 A. They were standing on top of the tank.

2 Q. How were they dressed?

3 A. Mr. Zaric was wearing a camouflage uniform.

4 Q. Was he armed?

5 A. Yes, he was.

6 Q. What about Mr. Tadic? Tell the Chamber how he was dressed.

7 A. Mr. Tadic was also wearing a camouflage uniform and a leather

8 raincoat on top of it.

9 Q. What colour leather raincoat?

10 A. I can't really remember the colour.

11 Q. Did he have a beard?

12 A. Yes, he did.

13 Q. What sort of beard?

14 A. A short beard.

15 Q. Full beard?

16 A. Yes, a full beard.

17 Q. What was he doing?

18 A. He was also standing on top of the tank.

19 Q. Was any member of this group of soldiers, including both of these

20 defendants that you've mentioned, apparently giving orders to the others,

21 or apparently in command or apparently in some sort of senior position?

22 A. As far as I could conclude, Mr. Zaric and Mr. Tadic were occupying

23 some sort of commanding positions.

24 Q. Was anyone else up on the tank with them, or just those two?

25 A. Yes, there were other soldiers.

Page 7176

1 Q. Yes, there may have been other soldiers. But were there any other

2 soldiers up on the tank?

3 A. Yes, there were.

4 Q. So it was not just Mr. Tadic and Mr. Zaric who were up on the

5 tank, but there were other soldiers as well in that position?

6 A. Yes, that's true.

7 Q. Were all of the soldiers there, all of them, local men?

8 A. No.

9 Q. What makes you say that?

10 A. I'm saying that because there were soldiers among them who were

11 from Serbia.

12 Q. And why do you say that? Why do you say that they were from

13 Serbia?

14 A. You could tell by the accent.

15 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Fadil Topcagic?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Was he there?

18 A. He was.

19 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Goran Buzakovic?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Was he there?

22 A. He was.

23 Q. ... they were both local people from Bosanski Samac?

24 A. Yes, they are.

25 Q. Was your house searched?

Page 7177

1 A. It was.

2 Q. Were you there when the people were searching the place?

3 A. I was present.

4 Q. What were they looking for?

5 A. They were looking for weapons.

6 Q. Did anyone take the time to explain to you why they had come to

7 your house with an armoured car and armed men, why they seized your

8 weapons, why they were searching your house?

9 A. No, nobody explained the reason for the visit.

10 Q. Did the men, soldiers, including the defendants, eventually leave?

11 A. Yes, they eventually left.

12 Q. Apart from the unpleasantness of having armed men come to your

13 home, were you or your family mistreated in any way? On this occasion, I

14 mean.

15 A. No, they didn't mistreat us.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 In the following days, the days following the 18th, did you have

18 an opportunity to listen to the radio?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. Was that a source of information as to what was going on in your

21 community?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What had it been called prior to the 16th of April, this radio

24 station?

25 A. Radio Samac.

Page 7178

1 Q. And in the days and weeks and months following the 16th and 17th

2 of April, what was it called?

3 A. Serb Radio Samac.

4 Q. So, did you listen to the radios fairly closely in the days

5 following the 18th?

6 A. Yes, I listened. Not very often, though.

7 Q. Did you and the rest of the population of Bosanski Samac receive

8 any sort of instructions over the radio?

9 A. No, we didn't.

10 Q. Did you find on occasions in the ensuing days and weeks that you

11 had to go out of your house and out into the streets?

12 A. I did have occasion, yes.

13 Q. Did you have to wear anything in particular?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. What did you have to wear in particular?

16 A. We had to wear a white armband on our left arms.

17 Q. I want to you give the Trial Chamber details about this. Who had

18 to wear the white armband and where did you first hear of this

19 requirement?

20 A. Those white armbands had to be worn by all Muslims and Croats in

21 Bosanski Samac.

22 Q. In the ensuing weeks and months, did you wear white armbands when

23 you went out?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. Where did you first hear about this requirement of having to wear

Page 7179

1 white armbands?

2 A. The first time, I heard about it on the radio.

3 Q. And doing the best you can, how long after the events of the 16th

4 and 17th of April would you say that you first heard that? Matter of

5 months or weeks or days?

6 A. Perhaps a couple of weeks after that.

7 Q. Did you ever go back to work in the games arcade that you had been

8 working at prior to the 16th and 17th of April?

9 A. No, I didn't go back there.

10 Q. Did you find that events took a turn that caused you to be doing

11 work in the ensuing months after April 1992?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I want you to tell the Chamber about that. First of all, when did

14 you hear for the first time that you would be doing work in the next few

15 months?

16 A. A courier came for me, to my home.

17 Q. And what did the courier tell you?

18 A. That I had to report to the building of the Territorial Defence.

19 Q. And doing the best you can, about how long after the 16th and 17th

20 of April was that?

21 A. Two weeks later roughly.

22 Q. Did you, in fact, report to the TO building?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Did your brother go with you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7180

1 Q. The courier who came and told you, what ethnic background was he?

2 A. He was a Serb.

3 Q. Uniformed?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Armed or unarmed?

6 A. He didn't have a weapon.

7 Q. Now, apart from the courier, did you ever hear of the necessity to

8 report there through any other means?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Tell the Chamber what you saw when you reported.

11 A. In the yard of the Territorial Defence, there were a lot of Croats

12 and Muslims standing and wondering what was going to happen to them.

13 Q. Yes. And did anyone inform them as to what was going to happen?

14 A. Yes. They informed us we had to go and do forced labour.

15 Q. Who informed you that? Can you recall?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Can you tell us, sir, if the person who informed you was a local

18 person, or was it a stranger from somewhere else in Yugoslavia?

19 A. He was a local.

20 Q. Were you provided with any details as to how to start going about

21 this work?

22 A. No.

23 Q. How long did this whole encounter take at the TO? Were you there

24 for a matter of minutes or hours?

25 A. We were there for about 40, 45 minutes perhaps.

Page 7181

1 Q. Did you, in fact, start to perform work following that visit to

2 the TO?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. And when was that?

5 A. Perhaps the very next day.

6 Q. How long did you perform this, to use your term, "forced

7 labour"?

8 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, objection.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

10 MR. PANTELIC: I think it is not appropriate for my learned friend

11 Mr. Di Fazio to use the term of one layperson which is strictly legal. So

12 please, I ask my learned friend to avoid --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, I think let's solve this problem this

14 way: The Prosecution will be allowed to use the word "forced labour,"

15 whatever it means, but they know that they have to prove all the elements

16 that are required be proved for the Trial Chamber to make such a finding.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, well --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: So I'll allow them to use that term loosely, that's

19 all. They know what they have to prove.

20 MR. PANTELIC: It's your decision. I concur with it. Thank you,

21 Your Honour.

22 MR. Di FAZIO: With respect, this isn't a jury trial, and you are

23 the judges of fact and, with respect, you know very well what the

24 Prosecution has to prove. It is not it would be unthinkable that the

25 Chamber would be swayed by the use of terms rather than facts, so I don't

Page 7182

1 think it's a problem.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, very well. That's the point I was trying to

3 make to Mr. Pantelic. Please proceed.

4 MR. Di FAZIO: Thank you.

5 Q. Now, how long did you perform this forced labour? Through about

6 1992, now. I just want you to give the Chamber an overall picture of your

7 movements over the next few years before I start to look at the events in

8 detail. So how long in 1992 did you perform forced labour? Until when?

9 A. From April 1992 until December 1992.

10 Q. Now, what happened in December of 1992? Not in detail, just tell

11 us what change there was.

12 A. In December 1992, I was mobilised by force.

13 Q. Is that into an army?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Which army?

16 A. The Serb army.

17 Q. How long were you mobilised by force into that army?

18 A. Until December 1993.

19 Q. When did you eventually get out of Yugoslavia?

20 A. In August 1994.

21 Q. And was that through -- did you go to Belgrade with the assistance

22 of someone and eventually make your way through to the rest of Europe?

23 A. Yes, first I went to Belgrade.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to look at the events from April 1992 to

25 December of 1992, the period of time in which you were performing what you

Page 7183

1 refer to as "forced labour."

2 First of all, you say that you engaged -- started upon this very

3 soon after the meeting at the TO. How were you informed of whatever your

4 assignment was?

5 A. A courier would come for me and take me wherever I was supposed to

6 work.

7 Q. How long did that system go on for, that is, the system using the

8 courier, taking you to your work location?

9 A. It didn't last for long, perhaps about a month.

10 Q. And thereafter, what system was used to get you to your workplace?

11 A. First we had to report to the retirement home. That was an

12 assembly point, and then they would transport us to town.

13 Q. Yes. On the second system that you just described, who would

14 report to the retirement home, first of all?

15 A. All Muslims and Croats who had this forced labour thing had to

16 report there.

17 Q. All right.

18 MR. Di FAZIO: Would that be an appropriate time, if Your Honours

19 please.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we'll take our break and resume the proceedings

21 at 16.15 hours.

22 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. You just want to inform

Page 7184

1 the Trial Chamber that I have provided the colleagues from the OTP with

2 the English translation of the Document D14/4 ter ID. Also I gave to the

3 Registry a number of copies for the Bench, and I believe that I'm going to

4 need the number for this English version.


6 MR. LAZAREVIC: And then I would like to have an evidence number

7 instead of ID number, because we will use these documents on many other

8 occasions with some other witnesses.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: I notice that only the top part has been translated

10 into English. Is it because the names -- the one in Serbo-Croat, the

11 names --

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: The names haven't been translated because it

13 contains all the names and addresses with name of the streets and

14 numbers. So this is the official translation that we have received.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. There are no annotations at all against any

16 names?

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Nothing, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: So this one has to be used in conjunction with the

19 ter one. So we can just have the formal number, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. May I just inquire whether

21 this is to be admitted into evidence as requested by counsel?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?

23 MR. Di FAZIO: It could just be given a full exhibit number rather

24 than ID number.


Page 7185

1 THE REGISTRAR: Okay, Your Honours. The B/C/S version is D14/4

2 ter, and English translation is D14/4.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Yes, that's okay.

4 We can proceed with examination-in-chief.

5 MR. Di FAZIO: Thank you.

6 Q. Now, before the break, we were moving into the area of the forced

7 labour that you performed throughout 1992. And you've told us of the two

8 methods that were used to direct you to your location, namely the arrival

9 of a courier who told you where to go, or assembling in front of the

10 pensioners' hall and then getting the directions. There's just a few more

11 details that I want to know about the pensioners' hall. First of all,

12 where was it located?

13 A. In Bosanski Samac.

14 Q. In the centre of town?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In the ensuing months, did you find yourself gathering there in

17 the mornings?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. What sort of numbers of people would be gathered there waiting to

20 receive their assignments?

21 A. Well, quite a number of people.

22 Q. Okay. Now, do your best. Try and give us a figure. Are we

23 talking about 20 or 30 people, 15.000 people? What sort of numbers?

24 A. Approximately 50, 60 people.

25 Q. What ethnic background?

Page 7186

1 A. Muslims and Croats.

2 Q. Men and women?

3 A. Yes, women were also present.

4 Q. What time would you gather in front of the pensioners' hall?

5 A. Early in the morning, approximately 7.00 a.m.

6 Q. Okay. Once everyone had gathered, what would happen?

7 A. Then we would wait, depending on where we were to go and work.

8 Q. Yes. Presumably, not everyone who was gathered would go to the

9 same location. Presumably, the assembly would then be split up and

10 different groups would go to different jobs. Am I correct in saying that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So how would the different groups be formed and how would they be

13 told where to go?

14 A. Well, it depended on the assignment, depended on the location of

15 the assignment. There were the usual soldiers who would come out, and

16 they would say, "You, you, and you go with me." And then we would board

17 the trucks, and we would be taken there.

18 Q. Okay. And would this scene be repeated every day?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Saturdays and Sundays?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What sort of trucks would you get into? Were they covered trucks

23 or open trucks?

24 A. They were covered trucks.

25 Q. Were you accompanied by a guard?

Page 7187

1 A. Yes, we were accompanied by guards.

2 Q. Armed guards?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Let's go back to the assembly in the morning before you would set

5 off for your particular task. Presumably, there would be more than one

6 armed guard going around directing people to which particular task they

7 had to perform.

8 A. Yes, yes. There were two or three of them there. It depended.

9 Q. How long would it take for the assembled people to be given their

10 instructions for them to disperse off to their tasks? Was it matter that

11 would take two or three minutes, or would it take 15 minutes, half an

12 hour? What sort of time?

13 A. Well, approximately 5 to 10 minutes. It didn't last long.

14 Q. On these occasions when you assembled there, together with your

15 fellow workers, did you ever see any of the defendants?

16 A. Yes, on occasion I did see Mr. Zaric and Mr. Tadic.

17 Q. At that time of the morning, 8.00 or thereabouts, were there many

18 other people around the street and around the pensioner hall, or did your

19 group stand out?

20 A. There weren't many people in the street. Practically we were the

21 only ones there standing and waiting for the assignments to be allotted to

22 us.

23 Q. On the occasions that you saw either Mr. Zaric or Mr. Tadic, what

24 were they doing?

25 A. They were entering the building of the pensioners' hall. But what

Page 7188

1 were they doing there, I do not know.

2 Q. The hall in front of which you were assembled, the same hall. Am

3 I correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you just try and give the Chamber now a list of the types of

6 work that you did and the locations that you performed them at. And do it

7 as best you can in chronological order. Once you've provided the Chamber

8 that list, I'll ask you some more detailed questions about those

9 particular jobs. Start at the beginning and try and finish at the end.

10 A. My first job was work performed at the silo.

11 Q. Okay. Thank you. Second job, third job, and please continue.

12 A. After that, I was located at Grebnice where we built bunkers and

13 dug trenches.

14 Q. Yes. Continue.

15 A. After that, I was in Zasavica where I performed the same type of

16 work as in Grebnice.

17 Q. Continue.

18 A. After that, I was in Odzak. There, I did a number of jobs.

19 First, I worked in the SUP headquarters. And I did all the jobs that were

20 required of me to do.

21 After that, in Odzak, we had to enter together with the soldiers

22 from the homes of Muslims and Croats and bring out everything which they

23 demanded that we bring out. After that, in Odzak, we entered Muslim and

24 Croat homes where we would be loading coal and firewood.

25 After that, I worked in Grebnice on a farm where I was given

Page 7189

1 cleaning jobs. After that, I worked on the harvesting of wheat.

2 Q. Where?

3 A. In Obudovac. This same type of work I performed in Gornja

4 Slatina. After that, I worked in Brvnik in building bunkers and digging

5 cross-trenches. And the last job which I performed was the cleaning of a

6 farm in Pisari, cleaning and other jobs.

7 Q. All right. Well, my limited knowledge of geography I think

8 suggests that Zasavica -- sorry, I'll start again. My limited knowledge

9 of geography suggests that the silo is in Bosanski Samac. Is that right,

10 in the town?

11 A. Yes, yes, they are located in the town.

12 Q. Zasavica is in the municipality of Bosanski Samac, isn't it?

13 A. Yes. It's in proximity of Bosanski Samac.

14 Q. Okay. What about Grebnice? Is that in the municipality of

15 Bosanski Samac or where else?

16 A. It's on the territory of the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

17 Q. Obudovac?

18 A. Also within the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

19 Q. And Gornja Slatina?

20 A. Also on the territory of Bosanski Samac.

21 Q. What about the last two, Brvnik and Pisari?

22 A. Also in the territory of the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

23 Q. Okay. Let's go to the first job you did, the silo job. What

24 exactly did that involve?

25 A. There, we were assigned. We were taken to the roof of the silos

Page 7190

1 with sand bags, and it was there that we were building a type of a bunker,

2 because the Serbian soldiers were setting up their machine-gun nests, and

3 that is why we carried up the sandbags.

4 Q. Did you have to carry up heavy sandbags, fairly heavy sandbags?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Upstairs to the top of the silo?

7 A. Yes, yes, we had to carry these bags, these sacks, up to the roof,

8 to the top.

9 Q. And the machine-gun emplacement was at the top of the silo?

10 A. Yes, on top of the silo. It was on the top of the silo.

11 Q. Manned by Serb soldiers?

12 A. Yes, they were located there, on the top.

13 Q. Were you guarded at this work site?

14 A. Yes, we were.

15 Q. In performing this job, were you ever there when the machine-gun

16 emplacement was firing or being fired upon?

17 A. A couple of times it did happen that there was fire, machine-gun

18 fire.

19 Q. How long did you perform that work for?

20 A. Approximately a few days.

21 Q. Now, who were the soldiers manning the machine-gun emplacement?

22 A. Members of the 4th Detachment.

23 Q. Do you know who the commander of the 4th Detachment was?

24 A. Mr. Simo Zaric.

25 Q. Did he ever come along and inspect how the sandbag emplacements

Page 7191

1 were going, that you recall?

2 A. No. No, he didn't come there. I didn't have the opportunity of

3 seeing him there.

4 Q. Thank you. How long -- thank you.

5 Do you know a place called Prud?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. That's a small village very close to Bosanski Samac, is it not,

8 across the Bosna River?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. You didn't mention it before when you were listing your work. But

11 did you perform any labour at that site, at that place, or close to it?

12 A. Yes, I did. I had an assignment there.

13 Q. Where in the sequence would you put it in relation to the silo

14 job? Was it after the silo job or much later or what?

15 A. After the silo job. It was then.

16 Q. Tell the Chamber what the nature of the work was.

17 A. There, we were building a bunker. And after that, we had to also

18 do some work around a tank which was located there in the direction of

19 Prud.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... in the tank?

21 A. Yes, we had to dig the embankment so that then the soldiers could

22 place the tank at that location.

23 Q. How many workers were engaged along with you?

24 A. Well, approximately five or six people were working with me.

25 Q. I don't think I asked you were how many were working with you at

Page 7192

1 the silo job. Can you just tell us how many were working with you there?

2 A. I can't remember exactly, but I believe approximately ten.

3 Q. Okay. Let's back to this Prud job that you were doing. In the

4 time that you were working at Prud digging in the tank and digging

5 bunkers, was there any exchange of fire?

6 A. Yes, there was an exchange of fire.

7 Q. And how far away were the enemy lines?

8 A. Well, they were rather close, and only -- the lines were very

9 close because the only division was River Bosna.

10 Q. And again, soldiers from which detachment or unit were active at

11 this location at Prud?

12 A. Members of the 4th Detachment.

13 Q. How long were you on this job in Prud doing the bunkers and

14 digging in the tank?

15 A. Approximately a few days, four to five days.

16 Q. Were you guarded?

17 A. Yes, throughout that time.

18 Q. Thanks.

19 What was the next job that you performed?

20 A. Digging trenches and connecting trenches in Grebnice.

21 Q. How far is Grebnice from Bosanski Samac approximately? I don't

22 need to know precisely. Approximately.

23 A. I assume 5 to 6 kilometres.

24 MR. Di FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment.


Page 7193

1 MR. Di FAZIO: Thank you.

2 Q. How many workers engaged on this particular job at Grebnice and

3 what were their ethnic backgrounds?

4 A. Some 15 to 20 people, all of us Muslims.

5 Q. How long were you engaged in trench digging at Grebnice?

6 A. Approximately two months.

7 Q. Was this two months of continuous work there day after day, or did

8 you occasionally have time off?

9 A. No, that was we were working without interruption, day after day

10 in Grebnice.

11 Q. During this particular job, what time would your working start,

12 what time would it finish?

13 A. We would begin early in the morning at 7.00, 8.00 a.m., and end

14 very late in the evening. The days used to be long, so we would be

15 working 14, 15 hours a day, until 11.00 p.m., 12.00 p.m.

16 Q. This was a summer job, I take it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you provided with food?

19 A. No.

20 Q. All right. Now, tell the Chamber how far away the enemy lines

21 were? I use that word "enemy" just to differentiate between the people

22 you were working for and the people who were engaged in warfare with

23 them. So how far away from the enemy lines?

24 A. Depended. In some cases, the distance was between 50, 60 metres,

25 up to half a kilometre or a kilometre, distance of a kilometre. It

Page 7194

1 differed from place to place.

2 Q. You've described having performed work on occasions when there was

3 exchange of machine-gun fire. Was there similar exchanges of fire at

4 Grebnice while you were working?

5 A. Yes, quite often.

6 Q. In addition to the exchange of machine-gun fire, was there

7 artillery and mortar fire?

8 A. Yes, there was.

9 Q. Again, while you were working?

10 A. Yes, while we were working.

11 Q. What exactly did you have to do when you would dig a trench? Tell

12 the Chamber how you would go about that task, what it involved. First of

13 all, did you do it by hand, shovels, did you have earth-moving equipment?

14 How did you carry out the job?

15 A. All you received -- all we received were shovels and picks, and no

16 earth-moving machinery, so it was all manual work.

17 Q. When you started a trench, would you have to be working above

18 ground, so to speak, because you hadn't yet dug yourself in?

19 A. Yes, that's right. Correct.

20 Q. Would you then be exposed to enemy fire?

21 A. Yes, we would.

22 Q. Apart from digging, did you have to actually help construct the

23 trench, put in ramparts, supporting beams and so on?

24 A. Yes, we did.

25 Q. Was that heavy work, moving in those supports and beams and so on?

Page 7195

1 A. It was very heavy work, because these were beams, railroad beams,

2 sleepers, and they were very heavy.

3 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Mile Zoranovic?

4 A. I know him.

5 Q. Was he at Grebnice?

6 A. Yes, he was guarding us in Grebnice while we were performing these

7 jobs.

8 Q. Armed?

9 A. Yes, he was armed.

10 Q. Now, was he attached to any particular unit?

11 A. He was a member of the 4th Detachment.

12 Q. In the time that you were working at Grebnice, were you ever

13 required to clear vegetation to enhance the field of fire for the

14 soldiers?

15 A. Yes, many a times.

16 Q. Tell the Chamber what that involved.

17 A. Well, in front of the bunker there was grass or trees. We had to

18 clear that so that the visibility would be as good as possible.

19 Everything had to be removed.

20 Q. Were you often fired upon in these circumstances, or did the enemy

21 hold their fire, perhaps knowing who you were?

22 A. Well, we were often fired upon because often the Serbs would open

23 fire and provoke, and they intentionally provoked the other side.

24 Q. And fire would be returned?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7196












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7197

1 Q. And this was when you were clearing vegetation?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In effect, you would be placed in between the lines -- the enemy

4 lines, so to speak, in front of the Serb lines and confronting you were

5 the lines across the river, the Croatians?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. While you were working at Grebnice, was anyone wounded?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who was that?

10 A. Fuad Bobic was wounded.

11 Q. Where was he wounded?

12 A. He was wounded in the stomach and in his backside.

13 Q. Can you recall what he was doing at the time, digging trenches,

14 clearing vegetation, having his lunch? Have you got any idea?

15 A. We were digging trenches at the time when the gunfire started.

16 Q. And is he of what ethnic background?

17 A. Muslim.

18 Q. What happened after he was wounded?

19 A. After that, we had to carry him for about 2 kilometres to the

20 building housing the command from where he was taken to the hospital. And

21 don't know what became of him later.

22 MR. Di FAZIO: Can the witness be shown P38, please.

23 Q. Perhaps before you're shown that, can I just ask you one

24 question. Were you ever paid at all, at all, for the work that you

25 performed between April and December of 1992?

Page 7198

1 A. No, I was never paid for those jobs.

2 Q. Thanks.

3 MR. Di FAZIO: Can the witness be shown P38 now.

4 Q. This document speaks for itself. You see over on the left-hand

5 side of the document there's a number of names, and I think you'll see

6 Mr. Bobic's name under the "injured." Do you see his name there, second

7 on the list?

8 A. Yes, I can see it.

9 Q. It says he worked for 73 days, and that he was paid 10.950 dinars

10 or rather there is an entry for 10.950 dinars next to his name. Were you

11 aware of him ever being paid any money or given any money for his work?

12 A. No, nobody was paid.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I have to object at this time. The

15 witness just testified that after the moment this person was shot and

16 wounded he never saw him again. And then the question comes whether he

17 was paid. How the witness can know that since he hasn't seen this person

18 after this person was shot. Thank you.

19 MR. Di FAZIO: I'll tailor my question.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

21 MR. Di FAZIO: I'll change my question.

22 Q. Up until the time he was shot, was he ever paid?

23 A. No, he wasn't.

24 Q. Did you ever hear of anyone else being paid a cent or dinar,

25 anything at all? By that I mean your fellow workers between April and

Page 7199

1 December 1992.

2 A. No, nobody was ever paid.

3 Q. In those months between April and December of 1992, were you short

4 of money?

5 A. Yes, we were short of money.

6 Q. In those months between April and December 1992, as far as you're

7 aware, were your fellow Muslims and Croats living in the town and

8 municipality of Bosanski Samac short of money?

9 A. They probably were.

10 Q. In all the time that you worked, between April and December of

11 1992, was any record kept of the hours or the type of work that you did,

12 other than, of course, for the sort of record that you see in front of

13 you?

14 A. As far as I know, no record was ever kept of the hours people

15 worked.

16 Q. Perhaps I should be a little more precise here. You weren't --

17 I'll withdraw that. Were you asked to keep a record of hours, days, and

18 locations and types of work that you performed?

19 A. No, I was never asked to do that.

20 Q. Did you ever see any of your fellow workers at any time at all

21 between April and December of 1992 recording details of hours or days or

22 locations or types of work that they performed?

23 A. No, I never saw any of my work colleagues taking notes of their

24 work hours.

25 Q. Did any officials, such as, for example, Mr. Zoranovic, apparently

Page 7200

1 record the days and the hours and the locations and the types of work that

2 you performed? Did you ever see them writing down in their notebooks what

3 you were doing?

4 A. No, he never took the notes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. Di FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I may come back to this

7 document later, but I think for the time being, I've finished with it.

8 Thank you.

9 Q. What was the next job after Grebnice?

10 A. I cannot recall precisely, but I believe it was the job in Odzak.

11 Q. Did you do any work in Zasavica?

12 A. Yes, I worked there.

13 Q. Thinking back, which would you say you did first, Odzak or

14 Zasavica?

15 A. I can't remember the sequence precisely. I can't tell whether

16 Zasavica came before Odzak.

17 Q. Okay. Well, I think I'd like to ask you first about Zasavica, so

18 that's what I'd like you to direct your attention to, please. What sort

19 of work were you doing there?

20 A. The same kind of jobs I did in Grebnice.

21 Q. Digging trenches?

22 A. Yes, I dug trenches.

23 Q. Clearing vegetation in front of the Serb lines?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you work there when there was fire being exchanged between the

Page 7201

1 sides?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you guarded by armed guards?

4 A. Yes. We were guarded by armed guards all the time.

5 Q. If it was suggested to you that the guards were there for your

6 protection, how would you react to such a suggestion?

7 A. In my opinion, they were not there to protect us. They were there

8 to guard us and keep us from running away.

9 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what makes you say that?

10 A. I'm saying that because in that period, many Muslims and Croats

11 tried to escape, and many -- some succeeded.

12 Q. Were there any escape attempts at Zasavica?

13 A. While I was in Zasavica, no.

14 Q. And when you say that in that period, many Muslims and Croats

15 tried to escape and that some succeeded, are you referring to people who

16 were engaged in this sort of work?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Before the war, what was the ethnic background of the inhabitants

19 of Zasavica?

20 A. They were mostly Croats, almost the entire village consisted of

21 Croats.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Do you know a gentleman named Dzevad Nukic?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Did he work at Zasavica?

Page 7202

1 A. He did.

2 Q. In April -- or rather in 1992, how old was he?

3 A. 19.

4 Q. When he was working at Zasavica, where was his father?

5 A. He was working together with him.

6 Q. Did anything happen to Dzevad Nurkic at Zasavica?

7 A. Yes. There was an exchange of fire, and Dzevad Nurkic was hit in

8 the head. 10, perhaps 15 minutes later, he died.

9 Q. Was his father working there on the trenches as well?

10 A. Yes. His father was perhaps 50 metres away from Dzevad when this

11 happened.

12 Q. Was he given an opportunity to watch his son die?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, I don't -- unless there's an objection, I don't need to show

15 you the document I showed you before. You can take it from me his name is

16 mentioned there. And the document asserts that he worked for 32 days, and

17 next to that, there's an entry for 4.800 Dinars. Are you aware of Dzevad

18 Nurkic having been paid any money up until the time he was shot in the

19 head?

20 A. No, he wasn't paid any money.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Again, our friend from the

23 Prosecution side is trying to create an impression which is really not

24 appropriate. First of all, this document is dated 17th November, 1992.

25 So obviously this amount of money cannot -- couldn't have been paid before

Page 7203

1 to Dzevad -- the late Dzevad Nurkic only later to his family probably.

2 But I don't really see what is the point of posing the question in this

3 respect to this witness when from the same document which my learned

4 colleague is referring to, we see that the document was created on the

5 17th of November, 1992. Thank you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Unless the Prosecution have the impression that a

7 record could have been kept of the payment and then endorsed on that

8 document?

9 MR. Di FAZIO: With respect, I'm not of any impression if Your

10 Honour please, and I don't see that you can draw the conclusion that

11 Mr. Zecevic argues for from that the document. I see nothing in that

12 document, nothing on the face of that document that suggests that there

13 was a late payment. Nothing at all. The document says that it was

14 created in November. It asserts that he worked for 32 days. It asserts

15 next to that a sum of money. We don't even know if it was paid. For what

16 it's worth, Mr. Zecevic may be perfectly right. He may be absolutely

17 wrong. But there's nothing on the face of the document, nothing at all,

18 that allows -- that leads you to the exclusion that he suggests you have

19 to draw from looking at it.


21 MR. Di FAZIO: For that reason I think I'm perfectly entitled to

22 ask if the man was paid for is work.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think you can go ahead and ask that question,

24 and Mr. Zecevic, this is a matter the Defence case can deal with when they

25 call the evidence, as to whether or not any person listed on any document

Page 7204

1 was actually paid.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: By all means, Your Honour. I understand that. Thank

3 you.

4 MR. Di FAZIO: Sorry, I don't recall if there was an answer to my

5 question, but just to be clear.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can ask the question again.

7 MR. Di FAZIO: I'll ask the question again.

8 Q. In the time, up until he was shot, did this boy ever receive --

9 this young man I should say, did he receive any money as far as you are

10 aware?

11 A. No, he wasn't paid any money.

12 Q. Okay. I think you mentioned that you performed farm work at

13 various locations. Can you tell us about that. First of all, can you

14 list the locations at which you performed farm work. I'm not talking

15 about going into people's houses; I'm not talking about trenches. I'm

16 just talking about farm work now. First of all, where? Where did you do

17 it?

18 A. I did that in Pisari and at a farm in Grebnice. And after that, I

19 worked twice, once in Obudovac, and once in Slatina harvesting wheat.

20 Q. I won't ask you in detail about each location. I just want you to

21 give a general picture to the Chamber. First of all, what sort of jobs

22 did you do at all of these locations? Just give us an idea of the sorts

23 of work.

24 A. Well, on those two farms, we had to clean, there was a lot of

25 cattle there, cows. We had to clean out -- we had to clean the stables,

Page 7205

1 to feed the cattle, to do all kinds of jobs that were needed on a farm.

2 Q. And were these privately owned farms or some sort of state

3 enterprise before April of 1992?

4 A. Yes, before April 1992, those were state-owned farms, not private

5 farms.

6 Q. When you were doing this farm work at these different locations,

7 how would you get there?

8 A. Every morning, we would come to the pensioners' hall and be picked

9 up by a truck.

10 Q. And did the same pattern apply? You would be driven to the

11 location in the company of an armed guard, and were your fellow workers

12 Muslims and Croats?

13 A. Yes. We would always go there accompanied by a guard, and the

14 people were Muslims and Croats.

15 Q. What was the sort of sizes -- I'll withdraw that question. How

16 many people would go to -- how many workers would go to these farms?

17 A. Ten.

18 Q. What sort of hours did you work on these farms?

19 A. That was not clearly defined. We could work for up to 10, 12, 15

20 hours. It all depended.

21 Q. What would be the shortest day that you ever worked, say would you

22 say, when you were doing farm work?

23 A. All days were the same. The hours were not defined, and I cannot

24 remember the shortest day I spent doing such work.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, perhaps we could find out if these

Page 7206

1 farms were state-owned farms up until April of 1992, after April 1992,

2 where was the ownership if they weren't state-owned any longer?

3 MR. Di FAZIO: I don't need to repeat Her Honour's question. It's

4 perfectly clear.

5 Q. Can you tell us?

6 A. Yes. Until April 1992, those were state-owned companies. Later,

7 I don't know to whom they belonged. Perhaps they were in the hands of the

8 military. I really don't know.

9 Q. What about the running of the farm? Was it the same

10 administration that was running the farm, same people working there

11 running the place, making decisions, as had been there prior to April of

12 1992? If you don't know, say so. But if you can give us any information

13 on that, please tell us.

14 A. I don't know whether the same people remained there, the same

15 people who worked there before the war.

16 Q. You didn't actually exit or get out of Bosanski Samac until 1994.

17 Do you know who was running the farms at that stage? If you don't know,

18 just tell us. But if you've got any idea, tell us.

19 A. During the war, those farms were run by persons of Serb ethnicity.

20 Q. Presumably, when you went out to the farms, there was more than

21 just the guard; there would have been other men, other workers, apart from

22 yourself, your group of workers, who were doing things about the place.

23 Did you have a chance to see them, see what they were doing?

24 A. No. While we were on a farm, we were alone with the soldiers.

25 We, the people who were doing forced labour.

Page 7207

1 MR. Di FAZIO: I don't think I can take the topic any further than

2 that. Thank you.

3 Q. Did you ever give consideration to escaping or trying to escape?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. I take it you didn't.

6 A. I didn't understand the question. Could you please repeat it.

7 Q. I take it you didn't escape from this labour that you were

8 performing because you didn't leave until 1994. Am I correct?

9 A. I left Bosanski Samac, that is, I got out, in December 1993.

10 Q. Yes. I understand that. What I'm talking about is the period of

11 time in 1992 when you were performing this forced labour. During that

12 time, you said that you gave consideration to trying to escape. I take it

13 that you did not, in fact, escape.

14 A. No, I didn't escape. But I often thought about it.

15 Q. Okay. That brings me to my next question: What prevented you

16 from making the attempt?

17 A. What prevented me was the fact that my brother was in one of the

18 camps, and I thought if I run away, there's no telling what might happen

19 to him. They sometimes took their revenge on people who stayed behind.

20 And that was one of the reasons why I didn't run away.

21 Q. That was one of the reasons. If you had put your shovel down or

22 whatever tool you were using on the farm and told the guard with the gun

23 I'm sick of this, I want to go home, would you have been in a position to

24 do that?

25 A. No, I wasn't.

Page 7208

1 Q. What did you think the guard would have done in such a situation?

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Calling for speculation.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio. The objection is sustained.

4 MR. Di FAZIO: I'll withdraw. Thank you.

5 Q. In the time that you were performing farm work, can you comment on

6 the sort of food that was supplied to you, if any?

7 A. We got soldiers' food, which was of very bad quality.

8 Q. And how often were you fed? Once a day or twice or more often?

9 A. It was one meal a day.

10 Q. What was that usually?

11 A. Usually, thick bean soup or cabbage and bland. Very bad quality.

12 Q. Were you hungry?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. By the time December 1992 came around, had you lost weight?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. About how much?

17 A. About 18 kilos.

18 Q. You said your brother was in custody. When was he arrested?

19 A. On the 5th of May, 1992.

20 Q. Prior to that, was he performing any of the sort of work that

21 you've described?

22 A. Yes. He worked together with me at the silo. And we were also

23 together at the bridge near the railroad where we did some digging.

24 Q. All right. I'd like you now to turn your attention to events in

25 Odzak. Firstly, how would you be taken to Odzak?

Page 7209

1 A. With trucks.

2 Q. Again, was there an armed guard?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you were going to Odzak, would women accompany you as well?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. Would you receive the assignment to go to Odzak from in front of

7 the pensioners' hall or were you directed there by some other means,

8 directed to Odzak, I mean?

9 A. Well, we had to rally there, report in front of the pensioners'

10 hall. And it was there that we would receive the assignment.

11 Q. How long did you work in Odzak for?

12 A. Approximately a few weeks, maybe a month.

13 Q. Am I correct then that the system was you would assemble in the

14 morning, you would be put on the truck, taken to Odzak where you would

15 perform your work, and then trucked back to Bosanski Samac in the evening?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Women would accompany you back on the truck in the evenings?

18 A. Yes, they would.

19 Q. What sort of condition were they in when they would go back in the

20 evenings, the women, I mean?

21 A. Very exhausted and tired.

22 Q. Where would you be taken in Odzak upon arrival?

23 A. At the beginning, I was assigned to the SUP, the police station

24 building. That is where they would take me, to their headquarters there.

25 Q. What was your job there?

Page 7210

1 A. All types of jobs. I had to bring in water, so I had to walk to a

2 well some 500 metres away and bring in water and do all the other jobs

3 they ordered me to do within the police headquarters building.

4 Q. Were you basically cleaning up the place and making it habitable

5 after a recent conflict?

6 A. Yes, you could state it in that -- put it in these terms.

7 Q. Making it habitable and usable for whom? Who? Who would use that

8 building, the SUP?

9 A. I didn't understand the question. Who was using the building?

10 Q. Yes. As far as you're aware, while you were working there was

11 anyone using the building, making use of it, for example --

12 A. Yes, it was in use. It was used by the members of the Serbian

13 police.

14 Q. Right. Were they engaged in fighting?

15 A. No.

16 Q. What sort of other work did you do in Odzak apart from carrying

17 water and fixing the SUP building?

18 A. After that, we had to go into the Muslim and Croat homes and to

19 bring out everything that they ordered us, all that was valuable. And we

20 were to bring it out.

21 Q. I want to get a bit more detail on this particular activity. Who

22 would direct you to the particular houses?

23 A. Soldiers.

24 Q. Would you be doing this job in groups of fellow workers?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7211

1 Q. So you were organised in the sense of being put into groups,

2 organised in the sense of someone would take you and direct you to a

3 particular house into where you would carry out this work?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what about when you went into the house to get the material,

6 get the property? Who would select what was to be taken?

7 A. Well, the soldiers would select, those who were with us. So it

8 was all that was of any value in that given home.

9 Q. So the same men who told you which home to go into would be the

10 man who told you what to select and take outside?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was he armed?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Once a choice had been made as to what to take, would it be taken

15 out?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Then what happened to the property?

18 A. This property was then taken away.

19 Q. By whom?

20 A. Mostly it was taken away by these soldiers. They would be taking

21 these items for their personal use.

22 Q. Do you know what soldiers they were? I mean it may be an obvious

23 question, but I have to ask them sometimes. So what sort of soldiers were

24 they?

25 A. Well, soldiers of Serb ethnicity.

Page 7212

1 Q. So your role basically was just to empty the house, and after

2 that, the stuff was taken away by others?

3 A. My role was to bring the items out, to load them on a truck, and

4 then they would be taken away.

5 Q. Is it the case that you don't know actually know where the truck

6 was taken, or you have through some information or other means you have an

7 idea where the trucks were taken?

8 A. I didn't know what was the destination of these trucks and where

9 they are heading.

10 Q. How long were you engaged in this sort of activity?

11 A. Approximately a week or two weeks.

12 Q. And what sort of homes did you go into?

13 A. Muslim and Croat homes.

14 Q. Did you ever have occasion to collect firewood and coal?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Was it customary in the countryside and towns and villages of

17 Bosnia to collect coal and firewood during the summer for storage and

18 eventually use in winter?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Customary, I take it, before the war?

21 A. Yes, it was.

22 Q. Okay. Did you -- where did you go and collect the firewood and

23 coal?

24 A. We went into Muslim and Croat homes.

25 Q. Just want to establish a few other basic things first. Did you do

Page 7213

1 so in groups, groups of workers?

2 A. Yes. Yes, we were performing this in groups.

3 Q. Were your fellow workers Muslims and Croats?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you guarded?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. Did you receive these assignments from in front of the pensioners'

8 hall?

9 A. No. Doing these jobs, we did not receive orders for that in front

10 of the pensioners' hall.

11 Q. How were you directed to this particular type of job, namely,

12 collecting firewood and coal?

13 A. In the morning, we were told to go to Odzak, and we only found out

14 the type of job we would be doing when we arrived to Odzak.

15 Q. I see. So -- right. Did you collect the firewood and coal only

16 in Odzak or in surrounding villages?

17 A. In Odzak and the surrounding villages also.

18 Q. Did you have to go into homes to collect the firewood and coal?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What sort of homes?

21 A. I didn't understand the question.

22 Q. Have you any idea of the ethnic background of the owners of the

23 homes into which you went to collect coal and firewood?

24 A. Well, Muslim and Croat homes.

25 Q. Once the coal and firewood had been directed, what would be done

Page 7214

1 with it?

2 A. The coal and firewood was taken to Bosanski Samac and to the

3 surrounding villages and distributed to Serb families.

4 Q. First of all, let's go into a little bit more in detail. Was it

5 loaded on to trucks? Did you participate in that loading?

6 A. Yes, it was loaded on to trucks, and I did participate in that

7 loading.

8 Q. Did you accompany the trucks back to Bosanski Samac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was it there distributed, as you say, to Serb families?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you help in unloading the trucks and delivering the coal and

13 firewood?

14 A. Yes, yes, I did perform that.

15 Q. And where exactly did you deliver the coal and firewood? Was it

16 to private homes, or was it private homes and businesses or any other

17 combination of destinations?

18 A. We delivered to private houses.

19 Q. By the time -- I'll withdraw that question.

20 Just briefly answer these questions: In the time that you were

21 mobilised after December, did you from time to time get relief from your

22 fighting and go back home, back to your house, to rest up for a few days?

23 A. Yes. I would get some leave.

24 Q. Okay. So you spent part of the winter of 1992/1993 in Bosanski

25 Samac, or at least very close to it?

Page 7215

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In the time that -- during that particular winter, I should say,

3 were you supplied with coal and firewood to keep you warm?

4 A. Very little.

5 Q. Who supplied it to you?

6 A. These were our stores from the earlier season. I didn't receive

7 it from anyone.

8 Q. What about during the winter of 1992/1993, did you have occasion

9 to visit Muslim and Croat homes from time to time?

10 A. Yes, I did have the opportunity.

11 Q. Did they have sufficient coal and firewood for their needs?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Can you comment on whether the same conditions were being suffered

14 by members of the ethnic Serbs in Bosanski Samac?

15 A. No, they weren't.

16 Q. How do you actually know that? Tell the Chamber what makes you

17 say that. Is it something you saw or heard or what?

18 A. I saw that people of ethnic ethnicity [as interpreted] were

19 receiving coal and firewood for winter. Of Serb ethnicity. I saw people

20 of Serb ethnicity receiving coal and firewood for the winter.

21 Q. Okay. You've told us about two episodes of trench digging that

22 you were engaged in, Grebnice and Zasavica. Did you ever go back to

23 trench digging in the period of time leading up to December of 1992?

24 A. Yes, I did return to that.

25 Q. Where was that particular location?

Page 7216

1 A. Brvnik.

2 Q. And how far is that from Bosanski Samac?

3 A. Approximately 10 to 12 kilometres. I don't know exactly, but I

4 believe it's approximately that.

5 Q. You've mentioned features in your testimony this afternoon of

6 going to these work assignments, and groups of Croats and Muslims being

7 guarded at these work locations. Did the same conditions apply in Brvnik?

8 A. Yes. It was the same in Brvnik.

9 Q. You've also mentioned in your testimony that when you were engaged

10 in other trench digging exercises, there was live fire going on between

11 the two sides. Did the same apply to Brvnik?

12 A. Yes, it does.

13 Q. How long were you working in Brvnik?

14 A. Approximately a few weeks, not very long.

15 Q. Okay. And prior to your mobilisation, was the last job that you

16 had at Pisari, and was that farm work?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. And all of those features that I have been asking you about this

19 afternoon, the guards, your fellow workers and their background and so on,

20 did the same considerations apply to that particular job?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to turn -- ask you to turn your

23 attention to other aspects of events in Bosanski Samac during 1992.

24 Perhaps we could start off with this.

25 MR. Di FAZIO: Can the witness be shown P40, please.

Page 7217

1 Q. Now, just have a quick look at that document.

2 MR. Di FAZIO: For the benefit of Your Honours, this is the

3 document referring to the prohibition of the gathering of three or more

4 Muslims or Croats and signed by Todorovic.



7 Q. Witness, I think you'll see that it is dated August 1992, the 4th

8 of August, 1992. It speaks for itself. You can see what it says.

9 Were you aware of any prohibition or edict or order in existence

10 prior to August of 1992?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thinking back, can you recall when you first become aware of this

13 prohibition against the gathering of three or more Muslims or Croats in

14 public?

15 A. I heard for the first time about this over the radio.

16 Q. Can you give us any idea of when you heard this over the radio?

17 A. I cannot remember exactly the month, but possibly two months after

18 the takeover of Samac.

19 Q. Did you become aware -- I'll withdraw that.

20 Other than the radio, was there any other source of information

21 about this prohibition?

22 A. No. I didn't know about any other source.

23 Q. In the months leading up to December of 1992, did you personally

24 take care not to assemble in groups of more than three Muslims or Croats?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7218

1 Q. Were you aware of other citizens of Muslim or Croat ethnicity

2 taking the same precautions?

3 A. I wasn't aware, but probably they were undertaking -- adopting the

4 same identical measure.

5 Q. Do you know the man who signed this particular document, Stevan

6 Todorovic?

7 A. Yes, I do know him.

8 Q. There is no dispute that he was appointed the chief of police in

9 Bosanski Samac. Did you ever see him in that capacity, speak to him, as

10 chief of police?

11 A. I did have the opportunity of seeing him, but not of talking to

12 him.

13 Q. Did you see any writing of any form referring to such a

14 prohibition, the prohibition we have just been talking about? I'm not

15 talking about the document in front of you.

16 A. Well, such orders were posted in the city. You could see them in

17 the city pasted on walls.

18 Q. Posters, I take it, were fixed around the town?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How did you feel to see that sort of order being posted around the

21 town in which you lived?

22 A. Well, it was unpleasant.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. Di FAZIO: I've finished with that document. Thank you,

25 Mr. Usher.

Page 7219

1 Q. You mentioned that your brother was arrested, and I think you gave

2 us a date, the 5th of May. Can you tell the Court the circumstances under

3 which he was arrested. What happened on the occasion that he was

4 arrested?

5 A. On the 5th of May, 1992, members of the Serbian army entered our

6 home with a paper which was supposedly a warrant to take my brother for an

7 informative talk to the SUP. However, that after this interview he would

8 be returning home, which wasn't what happened, because he didn't return.

9 Q. Other than informing you of the reason -- I'll withdraw that

10 question and rephrase it. Other than telling you that they wanted to have

11 an informative talk, did they provide any other reason for his arrest?

12 A. No, they were just saying that they would be taking him in for an

13 informative interview.

14 Q. Were the men who arrested him locals or were they from elsewhere?

15 A. Well, both locals and two persons from Serbia.

16 Q. Did they appear to be policemen or soldiers, or couldn't you tell

17 the difference?

18 A. They all wore camouflage uniforms, and I couldn't tell the

19 difference whether they were policemen or soldiers.

20 Q. Do you remember the names of any of them?

21 A. Yes. I know Dragan Tugonjic, nicknamed Tugonja, and he was from

22 Bosanski Samac.

23 Q. Was he in any organisation, for example, police, or the 4th

24 Detachment, or something else? If you don't know, say so.

25 A. He was a member of the 4th Detachment.

Page 7220

1 Q. Did you ever see him again? I don't mean years later, but in the

2 ensuing months.

3 A. Yes, I did see him in the ensuing months.

4 Q. How often?

5 A. Approximately four or five times in the ensuing months.

6 Q. And where did you see him?

7 A. In the street in front of the SUP building.

8 Q. Was he in the street?

9 A. He was on two or three occasions standing in the street in front

10 of the SUP building.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, it's not an objection but a question.

13 What is the reason for this line of questioning? What is the reason for

14 all these details? I think maybe our friend can explain that and maybe to

15 stick to the indictment and to the general issues and important issues. I

16 don't see that this kind of questioning is in accordance with the standard

17 principle of proceedings.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: There is nothing wrong with this questioning.

19 MR. PANTELIC: That was my impression. Maybe I'm wrong. Sorry.

20 MR. Di FAZIO: I'm happy to answer, that but it's 5.45. Perhaps

21 the witness can be led out of court.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: No. We shall have a break and continue our

23 proceedings at 18.05. We'll take 20 minutes.

24 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 6.07 p.m.

Page 7221

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, continue.

2 MR. Di FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, this relates to your line of

4 questioning. Page 74, line 6, where the name of this person is mentioned,

5 it simply says "Dragan, Bosanski Samac."

6 MR. Di FAZIO: I'm sorry, what page is that?

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: 74, line number 6. So presumably the man's

8 surname is missing, because I doubt his surname is the name of the town.

9 MR. Di FAZIO: Yes, I see the problem.

10 Q. Can we just have the name of the man you recall who came along to

11 arrest your brother, one of the men anyway. We got the first name in the

12 transcript, that's Dragan. But what about the surname?

13 A. Dragan Tugonjic, T-u-g-o-n-j-i-c, nicknamed, Tugonja.

14 Q. Thanks.

15 Now, what I'm actually interested in when I ask you about visits

16 to your brother is whether or not you saw at the SUP or in the vicinity of

17 the SUP any of the defendants during those visits.

18 A. I visited my brother only once, but I saw Mr. Simo Zaric a couple

19 of times. On one of those occasions, he was entering the building of the

20 SUP.

21 MR. Di FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment

22 while I check something in the transcript. Thank you.


24 MR. Di FAZIO:

25 Q. You said earlier before the break that you saw your brother about

Page 7222

1 four or five times in the ensuing months following his arrest and now you

2 say you saw him once. Either I misunderstood your earlier answer or

3 there's been some other problem. What is your position? Following his

4 arrest, how often did you see your brother?

5 A. Once.

6 Q. And that the occasion that I saw Mr. Zaric going into the SUP?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you see any of the defendants on other occasions in or near

9 the vicinity of the SUP?

10 A. No, not in the vicinity of the SUP, but I saw Mr. Tadic a couple

11 of times.

12 Q. On the one occasion that I saw your brother, what sort of physical

13 shape was he in?

14 A. In very bad shape. He was covered with bruises, and he had lost a

15 lot of weight.

16 Q. Did he have any blood on him?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was your mother permitted to visit him more often?

19 A. Yes, but those were not regular visits. You just brought some

20 food and water and tried to get them through while staying outside in the

21 street.

22 Q. On the occasion you saw your brother, did you try to get food and

23 supplies to him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you successful?

Page 7223

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How is it that you went to visit your brother only once in that

3 time?

4 A. Throughout that time, I was under work obligation. And the second

5 reason was that I was afraid I might be arrested, too, if I happened to be

6 in the vicinity of the SUP.

7 Q. Okay. I want you to turn your attention to June and July of

8 1992. Was there ever an occasion when men came to your home demanding

9 money and jewellery and so on?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who were the men who came to your home and how many of them were

12 there?

13 A. That happened twice. The first time was in April when two members

14 of paramilitary units from Serbia came to my house and brought Hasan Bicic

15 with them. They demand from me, my brother, and my parents to gather the

16 amount of 1.000 deutschmark within 15 to 30 minutes. And they said if we

17 managed to do that, they would release Hasan Bicic. My brother tried to

18 put that amount together within the given time, which was impossible,

19 because there was no one who could give you that sort of money. And when

20 my brother returned empty-handed, they left, taking my brother's car with

21 them. And they also took two gold chains off my neck, and they left,

22 taking Hasan with them.

23 The second time was in June --

24 Q. Just before we get on to June, and thank you for raising the

25 incident with Hasan Bicic. I'll get on to the June incident in just a

Page 7224

1 moment, but there's a couple of matters I want to clarify from this April

2 incident.

3 First of all, what sort of condition was Hasan Bicic in?

4 A. Hasan Bicic was in very bad state. He had a broken nose. He had

5 many scars on his face. He was black and blue and covered with blood. He

6 had blood stains on the clothes he was wearing. He was very thin.

7 Q. The men you say were from Serbia. Were they dressed in

8 paramilitary-type uniform, camouflage uniforms?

9 A. They wore camouflage uniforms; but on their sleeves, they had the

10 emblem of the Grey Wolves.

11 Q. Okay. What happened to your brother's car? Did you ever see that

12 again?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you feel that you could do anything to get the car back? Did

15 you feel, for example, you could go to the authorities or anything like

16 that?

17 A. No, I didn't even think about it. I knew it was futile. I knew

18 that we would never see the car again.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, can I ask you to tell the Chamber of the event in

20 June that you started to describe.

21 A. In June, members of the paramilitary formations from Serbia,

22 Seselj's men, came to our house. There were three of them. At the time,

23 my parents and my neighbour, with his wife, were in our house. They

24 started searching our house and demanded from me and my mother to hand

25 over all the jewellery and money that we had. On that occasion, my

Page 7225

1 father, my neighbour, and I were mistreated. They beat us the whole time.

2 Throughout the time they were there, they threatened me and kept telling

3 my mother that they would kill me. The one who introduced himself as

4 their commander demanded from me that I address him as "Mr. Chetnik." And

5 all the time he held a pistol and a knife in his hands and kept putting

6 the gun to my temple and the knife to my throat and asked my mother: "How

7 do you want us to kill him? Do you want us to shoot him in the head or

8 slit his throat? I think it would be quicker to slit his throat. It

9 takes only two seconds. It would be better." And all that time, he kept

10 shooting around the room at the ceiling. And once a bullet was fired

11 between my legs and hit the couch. He also gave me a piece of paper and

12 told me to write a list of all the members of the SDA and the HDZ, which,

13 of course, I didn't do because I didn't know all the members of these two

14 parties.

15 After that, he brought a bottle of whiskey, put it in front of me,

16 and told me to drink. And I had to do that.

17 Q. Did you have to drink the whole bottle?

18 A. I don't know. It was summer. There was no water or electricity

19 at the time. And my mother put the fire stove on to cook lunch, and it

20 was terribly hot in the room. I don't know how much I had drunk before I

21 passed out. And I simply don't know what happened after that.

22 Later, when I came round, they told me they would return in half

23 an hour, and that the list should be ready by then. Otherwise, they would

24 take me with them. After that, I lost consciousness again and woke up in

25 my aunt's house. And on that occasion, a certain amount of money was

Page 7226

1 taken away from my house.

2 Q. Was damage caused to your family's possessions in the house?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was broken or damaged?

5 A. Well, they kept firing all the time that they were there. All the

6 windows were shattered. They fired into the ceiling making many holes.

7 And just before leaving, the one who asked me to call him Mr. Chetnik took

8 the knife out and made -- and broke the television set and other pieces of

9 furniture. They turned the house upside down trashing it.

10 Q. Okay. Had you ever seen these men before in Bosanski Samac or did

11 you see them subsequently in Bosanski Samac?

12 A. No, I had never seen them in town before. I did see them later,

13 though. But after that incident, I didn't see them again. It seems that

14 they left.

15 Q. Hang on. That's not very clear. You say: I did see them later,

16 though, but after the incident, I didn't see them again.

17 What I want to know is following the episode where they shot

18 around the house and forced you to drink liquor, did you see them around

19 the town again on another occasion?

20 A. I saw them in town once, but not after that.

21 Q. Who were they in company with?

22 A. They were in the company of strange people. I didn't know them.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 Now, were your father and brother eventually exchanged?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7227

1 Q. Can you remember the date when they were exchanged?

2 A. The 5th November, 1992.

3 MR. Di FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I want to produce a

4 document that hasn't been produced before. It's an exchange list. It is

5 material that was provided to the Defence as part of the Prosecution

6 exhibits, so they have had it for a long, long time. And they have also

7 been given copies today.

8 Unfortunately, I don't have a translation at this stage. I didn't

9 think -- anticipate that I would be needing it, but it just confirms one

10 aspect of this witness's evidence. I am told by the case manager that if

11 it's admitted, at least marked for identification today, we can have the

12 full translation by the time we resume proceedings on the 1st of May.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.

14 MR. Di FAZIO: Furthermore, the copy is not particularly clear,

15 but I think it's sufficient for my purposes. I understand that Mr. Lukic

16 may well have used the document in any event himself.

17 Q. So Witness, would you please look at this document that I produced

18 to you. Witness, have a good look at it. Regrettably, it's not very

19 clear.

20 MR. Di FAZIO: If I may interrupt my questioning, I understand

21 that Mr. Lukic may well have a better copy in his possession and that he

22 may be able to assist the Court at a later stage. I don't think he has it

23 here, but I understand he may be able to assist the Court.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic, is that the case?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as this document

Page 7228

1 is concerned, I'm not sure I have a better copy. But regarding this list

2 of people, there is another document for the same exchange, and that is a

3 list made by the committee for exchange itself. I think it is much more

4 legible, and I think I have an English translation as well. But the

5 problem is I don't keep this document in my office in The Hague, and I

6 will be able to provide this other document only at our next trial date,

7 at our next hearing.

8 Just one more clarification: Those are actually the same two

9 documents. This particular list was made by the Red Cross, and another

10 list of the same people was made by the commission handling the exchange.

11 And this other paper is much more legible.

12 MR. Di FAZIO: When the time comes, if that other document is

13 tendered or produced by the Defence, I'm sure that will assist us in

14 reading this particular document. In the meantime, can I proceed with --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number for identification

16 only, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, it's P52 ter ID. Thank you.

18 MR. Di FAZIO: Thank you.

19 Q. Witness, all I want you to do is quickly have a look at the

20 document, and it is beyond dispute that there are a number of names

21 there. Have a look at number 11 there -- doing the best you can, can you

22 read the name there?

23 A. Esad Dagovic.

24 Q. Is that your brother's name?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7229

1 Q. And doing the best you can again, go to item number 46 on the

2 list. Doing the best you can, can you read the name there?

3 A. Sabrija Dagovic.

4 Q. And for the purposes of the transcript, would you please read the

5 heading of the document. That is the writing at the top of the list in

6 the middle of the page and I think it starts with the word "Komisier".

7 A. "Committee for the exchange of arrested and other persons." And

8 then again, it says: "For exchange on the 5th of November, 1992" writes

9 down - I'm not sure about this word - "the following persons."

10 MR. Di FAZIO: Thank you very much. I've finished with the

11 document. And if Your Honours please, I will have a full translation, I

12 hope, by the time we resume in May at stage I will be seeking to have it

13 tendered fully into evidence.

14 Q. Prior to November 1992, had your family been making attempts to

15 engineer or bring about an exchange for yourselves?

16 A. Yes, we tried.

17 Q. Tell the Chamber of your efforts to get exchanged. Where did you

18 go? How often did you go there? What did you do when you got there?

19 A. Every time we heard there was an exchange coming, my mother went

20 there to see if she could be included. However, she was not successful

21 until that very date when she was actually exchanged. And my father did

22 the same thing. He tried to put his own name on such a list for exchange.

23 Q. Did you ever accompany them when they went to wherever it was to

24 attempt to get on a list?

25 A. Yes. I was present once.

Page 7230

1 Q. And what was the location of the place? Where did you go in order

2 to try and get on this list?

3 A. Well, the headquarters of this commission for exchange was in the

4 building -- in the headquarters of the social welfare building.

5 Q. Were any of the defendants present?

6 A. Yes, Mr. Miroslav Tadic.

7 Q. Did you speak to him in connection with getting exchanged?

8 A. Yes. On one occasion, I did speak to him about an exchange.

9 Q. Tell the Chamber what you said to him as best you can recall, and

10 what he said to you, as best you can recall.

11 A. Well, I asked Mr. Tadic whether he could place us on the list for

12 the exchange, and Mr. Tadic gave an affirmative answer. However, this

13 exchange which took place on the 24th of December, 1992, I was on the list

14 in front of my mother. But the next day when the exchange was to take

15 place, I wasn't on the list any more. Instead of my name, there was

16 another name entered.

17 Q. How did you get to see any lists and see your name on any list?

18 Where did you see such lists and under what circumstances?

19 A. In the building of the social welfare where the commission for

20 exchange had its headquarters.

21 Q. Were the lists put up on a wall or something?

22 A. No. The list was in an office. That was the deputy of Mr. Tadic

23 where I could see -- he showed me the list and I could see my name and the

24 name of my mother.

25 Q. P52, the document ter ID, the document I just showed you,

Page 7231

1 indicates that the exchange was on 5th of November, 1992. Can I take it

2 that you saw some sort of list on the day before, the 4th of November?

3 A. I didn't quite understand your question, whether I've seen the

4 list before.

5 Q. Okay. I'm sorry if I've misled you. Let me start again. When

6 did you first see your name on any list for exchange?

7 A. I saw it on the 23rd of December, the day before the exchange.

8 Q. And your mother was exchanged when?

9 A. On the 24th of December, 1992.

10 Q. I'd just like to know how it was that you came to see your name on

11 the list on the 23rd of December. Did you go to the office specifically?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did someone show you the list?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you examine the list?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you saw your name and your mother's name?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The following day, the 24th, was the day of your mother's

20 exchange. But you were not exchanged. That's correct, isn't it?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. The following day again, did you have a chance to examine any

23 list?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How do you know your name was taken off the list?

Page 7232

1 A. Because prior to the exchange when people are going on the --

2 boarding the buses, the names on the list are read out. And prior to my

3 mother's name, another name was read out, and I wasn't on the list.

4 Q. So I assume you and your mother went along ready to be exchanged,

5 but she was the lucky one and you weren't. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Right. So now you found yourself in a situation where your whole

8 family had been exchanged, your brother and father had gone the month

9 before, and your mother went on the 24th, and now you were left in

10 Bosanski Samac. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. How old were you at the time?

13 A. 30.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you.

15 What did your family members take with them when they were

16 exchanged? I don't want every item, but were they able to take large

17 items, or did they just have a bag or something?

18 A. They could take just a few personal items, not very many.

19 Q. Did you remain living in the family home?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I want to now turn your attention to another issue, please. Are

22 you familiar with a place called the Spomen Dom?

23 A. Yes, I do know it.

24 Q. What is that place?

25 A. In the memorial hall, before the war, it was the headquarters of

Page 7233

1 the radio station with a few shops and a few conference venues.

2 Q. In 1992, did you ever go to any meetings there?

3 A. Yes, on one occasion.

4 Q. When was that occasion?

5 A. On that occasion, the members of the 4th Detachment called upon

6 all Muslims and Croats to come and report to the memorial hall.

7 Q. How did they go about calling upon all Muslims and Croats? Was it

8 a radio announcement, a letter, personal visit? How was it organised?

9 A. I can't remember exactly. Was it -- it was either the radio or in

10 written form; however, we were all told to come and report there.

11 Q. Did you go?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who was there?

14 A. Members of the 4th Detachment were there.

15 Q. Any of the defendants there?

16 A. Yes. Mr. Simo Zaric.

17 Q. Did he participate actively in the meeting in the sense of

18 speaking or doing anything like that?

19 A. Yes. He held a speech.

20 Q. What was the effect or the thrust of the speech?

21 A. Well, essentially, they gathered us in order to mobilise us and to

22 give us rifles. And the speech of Mr. Zaric was -- went in that

23 direction. If we would take up weapons, we would have certain privileges,

24 and we would be relieved of our work duty.

25 Q. Do you recall the word that he used to describe work duty?

Page 7234

1 A. I cannot -- I cannot remember exactly. Did he mention work duty

2 or forced labour? I cannot remember exactly.

3 Q. All right. When he referred to work duty, did you understand that

4 to be a reference to the sort of things that you had been engaged in

5 during the preceding months?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How long did the meeting take?

8 A. Approximately 40 minutes, up to an hour. Not longer than that.

9 Q. Did any of the -- withdraw that question. What ethnic background

10 were the assembled men?

11 A. Muslims and Croats.

12 Q. Amongst them, did you recognise any men who had been engaged in

13 work details and work assignments, or forced labour, of the sort that you

14 had been doing?

15 A. Yes, I did recognise them.

16 Q. Did any of the men take up the offer?

17 A. Yes. Only one.

18 Q. Following that meeting, did any of the men who had been assembled

19 leave Bosanski Samac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How did that take place?

22 A. I believe that on the very same night or the next night, a big

23 group of Croats and Muslims left -- fled, and swam across the Sava River

24 to Croatia.

25 Q. Following that episode of the men swimming across the Sava to

Page 7235

1 Croatia, were there any arrests of women and children, or rounding up of

2 women and children?

3 A. Immediately after that, yes. All those people who swam across the

4 Sava River, their families, mothers, fathers, wives, children, they were

5 all arrested.

6 Q. Did you actually see any of this process occurring with your own

7 eyes?

8 A. Yes, I did see when my neighbour and her two sons were taken in.

9 Q. In addition to seeing your neighbour and her two sons being

10 rounded up, did you come to hear of the people who had been rounded up

11 having been taken to Zasavica?

12 A. Yes, I did hear it.

13 MR. Di FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it's 12 minutes to 7.00.

14 I've got only a brief matter that I need to raise, but I'm informed by

15 Defence counsel that they had another matter they wanted to raise. I was

16 told some 15 minutes before closing today's session. I don't know if

17 that's correct or not.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.

19 MR. Di FAZIO: So I don't know if this would be an appropriate

20 time.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we will adjourn the proceedings until the 1st

22 of May at 14.15 hours.

23 MR. Di FAZIO: Yes, it's precisely that I want to now raise with

24 the Chamber. In fact, I suppose it concerns this witness as well. I

25 understand, I wasn't here the other day, I read the transcript, I

Page 7236

1 understand we're resuming on the 1st of May, which is a Wednesday, and

2 that the Chamber has granted the Friday --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, for the religious observation of the

4 defendants.

5 MR. Di FAZIO: That's right. That means that we will have two

6 days of sitting that week, Wednesday and Thursday.


8 MR. Di FAZIO: I haven't got too much more to go with this

9 witness, probably about another hour I would say. And then there's

10 cross-examination. We no longer have any witnesses I'll say locally, that

11 is, close to The Hague who can be slotted in quickly. I wonder if the

12 Defence could indicate how long they will be in cross-examination when we

13 resume in May, because we could face a situation, for example, where I

14 take a part of Wednesday, and cross-examination starts on Wednesday and

15 continues on Thursday, and then we finish there and then, and then we will

16 be breaking for three days. If we have got a witness from Bosnia that

17 means they have to sit around in a hotel room for three days.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I can find out from the Defence.

19 MR. Di FAZIO: If we have some idea.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: You are saying you need an hour more to complete

21 examination-in-chief?

22 MR. Di FAZIO: About an hour.


24 MR. Di FAZIO: What I'm concerned about is bringing in someone for

25 half an hour or an hour's testimony --

Page 7237

1 JUDGE MUMBA: And then hold them over.

2 MR. WEINER: I was wondering if the Chamber was minded to adjourn

3 early on Thursday --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: I think I can find out just roughly because you

5 haven't yet finished so they wouldn't know what the other one hour would

6 reveal. Anyway, just roughly, if they have a statement.

7 Yes, while the Defence -- yes.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may, Your Honours. I have been informed that

9 my colleagues will take four hours, I will take one hour, and Mr. Pantelic

10 informed me half an hour. So all in all, five and a half hours. Of

11 course, subject to whatever the witness is going to testify.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Another hour.


15 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a question to the Prosecutor,

16 Mr. Di Fazio. If my memory serves me right, you asked earlier during the

17 witness giving his testimony whether during the first period of digging

18 trenches, he received any food during work time. And if I am correct, the

19 answer was no. Is that so?

20 MR. Di FAZIO: Do you want me to clarify that particular issue,

21 Your Honour?

22 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Yes. During that first period, and also the

23 following periods of digging trenches, were they fed during work time?

24 MR. Di FAZIO: Yes, I can clarify that now. I'll do that, Your

25 Honour. Thank you.

Page 7238

1 Q. Cast your mind back to Grebnice, Zasavica, Brvnik, the places

2 where you engaged in trench digging. Now, was it the case that in those

3 places you weren't fed or provided with any food at all? Or was it just

4 in the one location, or was there no established practice? Can you please

5 clarify the situation for the Chamber.

6 A. In Grebnice, in Zasavica, we received no food. But you see, the

7 food, if we had something from one's home, we took it along. But we

8 didn't get anything from the soldiers.

9 Q. Was that lack of supply of food from the soldiers the same

10 wherever you went digging trenches? Or was it irregular? Sometimes you

11 were provided, sometimes you weren't?

12 A. No. We didn't receive food. They didn't give us food.

13 Q. That was a constant. They never gave you food at any of the

14 digging locations. Is that your position?

15 A. No, they didn't give us food. We didn't receive food.

16 Q. So when trench digging, any food that you consumed during the day

17 was stuff that you supplied yourself?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Maybe the witness can be taken out of

20 the courtroom.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 MR. Di FAZIO: If Your Honours please, my case manager has kindly

23 done the calculations on the estimates.


25 MR. Di FAZIO: If we were to stick to our predictions, if that

Page 7239

1 were to come true, we would finish about 3.45 on the Thursday.


3 MR. Di FAZIO: Sorry. 5.15 on the Thursday. 5.15 on the

4 Thursday. So we would lose that --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: That bit of time. In terms of expense, it would

6 definitely cost the Tribunal more to keep the witness over the three days.

7 MR. Di FAZIO: Exactly. With respect, it's not just a question of

8 expense, is it, Your Honour? They are from far away. In a strange

9 environment. Three days -- it's strain on people and --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. In that case, we will simply deal with this

11 witness over these two days.

12 Yes. The Trial Chamber was expecting Mr. Christian Rohde to come

13 into the courtroom. I'm wondering if he may be somewhere outside, if the

14 usher can check.

15 Yes. The Trial Chamber wanted information on the facilities

16 available to Mr. Milan Simic while he is in the detention unit during the

17 proceedings. He has been signing his consent to be excused from

18 attendance in the courtroom and the Trial Chamber is under -- has been

19 given information that the videolink is working and that he is able to

20 follow the proceedings. So the Trial Chamber wanted information from

21 Mr. Christian Rohde especially regarding the mode of contact with his

22 counsel.

23 MR. ROHDE: May I approach a microphone?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think there is one just in front of counsel.

25 MR. ROHDE: Your Honours, according to our research and time logs,

Page 7240

1 the videolink is working well with an occasion hiccup so to say. It's

2 not, let's say, a very simple tool. The videolink functions during the

3 entire procedure while Mr. Simic is absent. The contacts with his Defence

4 counsel, according to our time log, with occasional hiccups function

5 well. The normal procedure is that Mr. Simic contacts a guard and is then

6 able to use a telephone with, according to our calculations, with a delay

7 in between 30 seconds and a couple of minutes.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. And that is the position up to today?

9 MR. ROHDE: That's correct.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

11 We will hear from Mr. Zecevic what his instructions are.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 I would, Your Honours, if I may, I would like to introduce -- I

14 would like to address this issue in Serbian language for the benefit of my

15 client, because he is listening to us.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, if you can go slowly so that the interpreters

17 can follow. I want to make it clear, that this is not an inquiry by the

18 Trial Chamber. It will just be a question of you stating what you know

19 from the instructions from your client, and that will be the end.

20 Thereafter, the Trial Chamber will decide to do what -- if there is any

21 need for any decision.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Exactly, Your Honours. It will take just two

23 minutes. I would like to explain just explain what is our position, the

24 position of myself and my client. If I may.


Page 7241

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 [Interpretation] As you are aware, Milan Simic and his Defence

3 team have agreed with the arrangement introducing videolink into his cell

4 in the Detention Unit. At any rate, that arrangement is not easy on our

5 Defence or our client, because it involves certain problems. However, we

6 appreciate that this trial needs to take its course unhindered. And in

7 the interest of my client's health who, as you know, is a paraplegic with

8 a high degree of disability, we have agreed that this trial proceeds with

9 him remaining in his cell for most of the time following the course of the

10 proceedings through videolink. On the other hand, this also implies that

11 between the Defence team and the client, there is unhindered prompt and

12 efficient communication. May I remind you that the Registrar has

13 addressed us with two proposals, one of them being a laptop computer with

14 a direct link, and the second alternative was a telephone line wherein I

15 would pick up the receiver and immediately be able to speak to my client.

16 And of course, he would be able to contact me that way as well.

17 As far as the Defence is concerned, we have found this arrangement

18 satisfactory until now because it gave us the opportunity to speak to our

19 client with a delay of 40 to 60 seconds from the moment I would pick up

20 the receiver. The day before yesterday, while visiting my client, I was

21 allowed to visit him in his cell because of his condition. And in the

22 course of our conversation, I asked him about his opinion on the way the

23 arrangement was functioning. On that occasion, my client informed me that

24 every time he wanted to speak to me while the proceedings were ongoing, he

25 would press a button, which I assume is some sort of alarm button, or

Page 7242

1 rather a signal going to the room of the guards on the ground floor, and

2 then the guards would inform a third person in the administration of the

3 Detention Unit - I believe his name is Harry - located on the same floor

4 as my client, and after that the telephone set would be brought to my

5 client physically. And only then is he able to speak to me. And when I

6 ask him how long this procedure usually takes, he told me it was over ten

7 minutes. And he doesn't think that this arrangement is really

8 satisfactory from his point of view.

9 I addressed the Registrar, Madam Registrar from the courtroom, and

10 I explained the problem to her and asked her if we could find a solution

11 to this problem, which I believe is of purely technical nature, without

12 encumbering the Trial Chamber with it. However, two days later, I was

13 informed that the problem cannot be solved without the assistance of the

14 Trial Chamber. If the Trial Chamber finds that their assistance is in

15 order.

16 And just one more thing, and then I'll conclude. Today, during

17 our hearing, I had occasion to test this arrangement in practice. Namely,

18 I will remind you of the moment when I made an objection regarding

19 Document P38. According to the Livenote, which also makes a record of the

20 time, the objection was raised precisely at 17.30. Our exchange of

21 arguments and the decision of the Trial Chamber lasted until exactly 17

22 hours 02 minutes, 46 seconds. At 17.06.36, I was informed by the Registry

23 that my client wished to speak to me. I answered the telephone, and my

24 client told me that he had wanted to give me a clarification and an

25 instruction regarding this particular document, and that he had asked to

Page 7243

1 talk to me at the very moment when I was making the objection. In other

2 words, it took him about five minutes to establish communication with me

3 in order to give me a certain instruction.

4 In situations like this, as well as situations of

5 cross-examination, I believe that a five-minute delay is extremely long.

6 And from that point of view, for that reason, I would kindly ask --

7 request on my client's behalf and in my own name that my client be enabled

8 during the course of the proceedings to have a telephone set right next to

9 him within his reach and to use it solely for the purpose of communicating

10 with my telephone set so that we are able to exchange consultations or

11 instructions within the shortest possible time.

12 [In English] Thank you so much.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Any other matters to be raised by the

14 Prosecution, the Defence? The Trial Chamber has two points: We have

15 observed that during examination-in-chief, especially of the first witness

16 this week, there was an amount of repetition of questions to the witness.

17 And this does take time, because there's no need for repetition. And this

18 was both on the Prosecution side and the Defence side when

19 cross-examining. I do hope that the parties will take this into

20 consideration for the next witnesses and avoid repetition of questions.

21 The other point I wanted to ask the Prosecution is that before we

22 resumed the proceedings the last time we adjourned, I had asked the

23 Prosecution to consider recording some of the witness evidence under the

24 provisions of Rule 92 bis. The Trial Chamber has observed that there

25 appears to be no movements, at least we haven't seen any copy of any

Page 7244

1 applications to the Registrar to move the matter into process. So I

2 wanted to find from the Prosecution what the position is. The reason for

3 our request really is to cut down on hearing time. We have observed that

4 some of the witnesses spend a few minutes discussing the involvement of

5 the accused, and under Rule 92 bis, most of the rest of the evidence can

6 be placed in a statement and produced before the Trial Chamber. And then

7 the rest of the evidence regarding the involvement of the accused and the

8 other matters accepted under Rule 92 bis can be given viva voce. So I

9 wanted to find out what the position of the Prosecution is in this, trying

10 to work out Rule 92 bis to cut down on hearing time, what their position

11 is.

12 MR. Di FAZIO: Well, the position is that the Prosecution is aware

13 that most of the remaining witnesses from now on will give evidence that

14 at some point or another will touch upon the activities of the defendants

15 themselves. And so for that reason, we thought that it best that they

16 give their evidence orally, completely. If the Chamber, however, wants us

17 to approach those witnesses who did speak about the defendants only from

18 time to time in their evidence and put in the rest of their evidence

19 pursuant to statements, then without committing myself, it's something

20 that I'll immediately raise with the rest of the trial team and try to

21 address. It may be that some witnesses would be quite -- their testimony

22 would lend itself to using that system, and it may be that others would

23 not be -- the nature of their testimony would not be such that we would

24 prefer to have all of their evidence to be heard orally.

25 I haven't made any moves to attempt to get any of the remaining

Page 7245

1 evidence in under 92 bis because of the fact that they did touch upon the

2 personal activities of the defendants.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: If you notice, what we have observed, the evidence

4 so far involves discussion about their arrest, first of all, the

5 disturbances before 17th April, and then the arrest of some of the

6 witnesses, the way -- the detention, the beatings, and then the work

7 obligations in different places at different times. Most of that is on

8 record with most of the Prosecution evidence. So that if the rest of the

9 witnesses are also people who went through the same experiences as these

10 other witnesses, it is possible to get most of that evidence on a

11 statement, and only leave out the activities of the accused.

12 MR. Di FAZIO: Yes.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Which can be given -- that evidence can be given

14 viva voce in which case whether a statement under 92 bis is recorded or

15 not, all the Prosecution witnesses may have to come and appear, especially

16 for cross-examination.

17 MR. Di FAZIO: Yes.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: But at least that would cut down the hearing time.

19 In most cases, I think, to an hour in evidence in chief. Because it would

20 be just the identification of the accused, how many times they saw

21 whatever they were doing, and that can be put into mostly one hour if most

22 of the other evidence is on paper, and then clarification here and there

23 perhaps, and then cross-examination and then re-examination. It would cut

24 down on most of the time.

25 MR. Di FAZIO: It would. I've got no -- I don't take any issue

Page 7246

1 over that. That's absolutely true. It would there's no question about

2 that. I think that the Prosecution can conduct a review of the remaining

3 witnesses and come up with some sort of list of witnesses who might, who

4 could, give their evidence partially pursuant to the provisions of Rule 92

5 bis and partly orally.


7 MR. Di FAZIO: But I haven't conducted that exercise as yet

8 principally because all of the remaining witnesses or the vast majority of

9 them speak about some of these defendants. I can now, if the Chamber

10 wishes me to, conduct such an exercise in conjunction with my colleagues

11 and do that. Does the Chamber wish me to embark to do that?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber would urge the Prosecution

13 to do that. It's an exercise that is possible. And like I say, you can

14 divide the evidence. Touching the defendants, you leave that out, the

15 rest of the evidence comes on paper, and then when the witness is in

16 Court, you fill up what is remaining, and then the cross-examination can

17 be conducted. In fact, even if all the witnesses except for the three

18 experts were allowed to give most of the evidence in written form, they

19 would still have to come for purposes of cross-examination and also

20 filling in the activities of the accused for those who have anything to

21 say about that. But I'm sure that it would cut down the time, almost

22 one-third of the remaining time that we have.

23 MR. Di FAZIO: It would be a big drain, though, on the resources

24 of the Prosecution. We would have to -- I haven't got the rule right in

25 front of me as I am speaking to you, but I think it would require --

Page 7247

1 JUDGE MUMBA: It does require appointing a presiding officer.

2 MR. Di FAZIO: Appointing a presiding officer.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: And the presiding officer travelling to the venue,

4 wherever it is.

5 MR. Di FAZIO: Yes, exactly. And obviously trial team -- members

6 of the Prosecution team would have to go to --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Some of the members of the team to make sure

8 that the statements are properly --

9 MR. Di FAZIO: Pertains to what the Prosecution wants, yes.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The idea of Rule 92 bis is really to cut down

11 on hearing time, because the Tribunal, as you know, is loaded with pending

12 trials. And we are very concerned about accused persons waiting for too

13 long.

14 MR. Di FAZIO: Very well. Can I say this, then: The Prosecution

15 will conduct an exercise of review of the remaining witnesses and

16 endeavour to come up with perhaps a list of witnesses who would be

17 suitable, we think, to adopting that procedure in respect of those

18 particular witnesses.


20 MR. Di FAZIO: And I can report to you when we resume.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Because the Trial Chamber is aware that the nature

22 of the evidence will not change. Because instead of the brief statements

23 given to the Defence, it will be a full statement in each case, in which

24 case it will even be better for the Defence.

25 MR. Di FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I understand what

Page 7248

1 Your Honours are saying completely. And as I said, I'll undertake this

2 review and to -- and report to you when we resume again. And I'm sure

3 that we can make some headway adopting this procedure.


5 MR. Di FAZIO: I'll do my best efforts to make sure we utilize the

6 procedure. Some of the witnesses will talk about issues that don't

7 concern these defendants or don't touch upon the activities of these

8 defendants directly. For example, some witnesses will talk about the

9 Crkvina massacre, the site where quite a large number of people were

10 murdered, in Crkvina, a small village close to Bosanski Samac. That sort

11 of evidence, for instance --

12 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. I think it's premature to

13 speak about the -- in terms of massacre.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, will you sit down.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Okay, Your Honour. Yes.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Nobody is giving evidence. Mr. Di Fazio is not

17 giving evidence.

18 MR. Di FAZIO: Now, that sort of thing would be the first time the

19 Chamber will be hearing about it, and that sort of evidence I would like

20 to present orally in Court. But nonetheless, I know what Your Honours are

21 saying about many witnesses going over the same sort of phenomenon that

22 we've heard about, the arrests, the torture, and so on.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And if you look at the provision of Rule 92

24 bis, it is not necessarily only that aspect that it is the same type of

25 evidence. If it would be completely new, I realise as long as it isn't on

Page 7249

1 the activities of the defendants, it can be put in a statement.

2 MR. Di FAZIO: It can. All I was saying is that there are some

3 types of topics, some sorts of topics that, as a Prosecutor, I would

4 want you to hear about firsthand.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that has always been a problem in lots of

6 trials because the Prosecution usually would prefer to have evidence heard

7 by the witnesses and all and sundry, that is understood. But the Trial

8 Chamber's view is that even that can be put in a statement. After all, it

9 would be public, it would be in the public records.

10 MR. Di FAZIO: I'll conduct that exercise, and I'll report to you

11 when we receive it.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

13 MR. Di FAZIO: The use of 92 bis.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall now adjourn until the 1st of May at 1415

15 hours.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.20 p.m., to

17 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of May,

18 2002, at 2.15 p.m.