Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7478

1 Tuesday, 7 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [The accused Milan Simic not present]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is continuing with

12 examination-in-chief. Ms. Reidy.

13 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. May I address the Bench on

14 three brief matters before I continue with the examination?


16 MS. REIDY: The first is just to advise the Chamber and the

17 registrar that sitting with the Prosecution today is another lawyer from

18 the Prosecution's office, Mr. Jonathan Ratel, who is sitting with the

19 Prosecution in the absence of two of the other trial members.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. He's welcome.

21 MS. REIDY: Thank you. The second matter is that I've spoken with

22 the Defence counsel for Mr. Milan Simic concerning the matter of

23 identification, and my understanding from our discussions is that

24 Mr. Milan Simic concedes that were he to be in court, that this witness

25 would be able to -- identify him and to that extent waives his right to be

Page 7479

1 in court for court identification.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Zecevic.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon.

4 That is a correct assumption. That is what we have agreed. Thank you,

5 Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: You're welcome.

7 Yes, you may proceed.

8 MS. REIDY: And finally, Your Honour, the third matter relates to

9 a number of documents which are the result of the proceedings against this

10 witness in the Bijeljina court. I indicated yesterday that we were

11 expecting the translations back. Those translations unfortunately are not

12 back. Mr. Novak has informed me that they were submitted to the

13 Translation Unit on the 25th of March, but due to the overwhelming tasks

14 imposed on the translation at the moment they're not available today.

15 They will be available by the end of the week. As a number of those

16 documents are of interest -- well, are of interest to the Prosecution and

17 the Defence to have the witnesses' comments on them, what we would propose

18 is that those documents which we wish the witness to testify about would

19 be placed on the ELMO by the witness in the B/C/S version, with a portion

20 highlighted. That small portion could be read into the record by the

21 witness and then commented upon with the final English version being

22 entered into evidence when it's available at the end of the week.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's proper. It is workable that way. Yes.

24 MS. REIDY: I believe that's what -- okay. Then we'll proceed

25 along that manner and hope it works.

Page 7480


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Examined by Ms. Reidy [Continued]

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mehinovic.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. At the end of yesterday's testimony, you were speaking about one

7 time when you were in Batkovici camp and Mr. Tadic had come to the camp

8 and had read a list of names out of people who were to be exchanged, and

9 your testimony was that your name was initially read out and then that you

10 saw Mr. Sabah Seric hand to Mr. Tadic, I believe, a hundred Deutschmarks

11 and promised him further money and that after this exchange that you

12 witnessed had happened, that your name was no longer on the exchange

13 list. Do you recall that testimony from yesterday?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, I'd like to clarify is exactly what happened next,

16 because you then discussed about a meeting with the warden of the camp.

17 So could you please -- after you saw this money exchange hands, did you

18 personally have a meeting with the camp warden and with Mr. Tadic, or did

19 Mr. Tadic and the camp warden have meetings just among themselves?

20 A. No. They were together in their office because we went there for

21 further talks. That's where approval was decided for people to go --

22 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, just for a second. My earphones appear

23 not to be working, as I'm not receiving the English translation, although

24 my colleagues on the Bench [sic] are.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Usher.

Page 7481

1 MS. REIDY: Thank you very much for your assistance.

2 Q. So after the lists were read out, Mr. Tadic went off with the camp

3 warden to his office; is that correct?

4 A. No, that's not his office; that's the camp warden's office.

5 That's where meetings were held.

6 Q. So where did Mr. Tadic and the camp warden hold this meeting?

7 A. In the warden's office.

8 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'm very sorry. I'm still getting no

9 English translation through my earphones.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Testing, testing. Can you hear English?

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a test?

12 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three. Can you hear English now?

13 MS. REIDY: Yes. Thank you very much. I can hear it now. I

14 apologise to the Bench. I didn't appreciate that until someone spoke.

15 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, I apologise for this. It's a technical problem

16 with my earphones.

17 So I understand from your last answer that this meeting took place

18 in the warden's office. Were you also in the warden's --

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. And you said yesterday as well that he said you didn't have enough

21 money. Who said that you had no money?

22 A. Both of them. Both he and the warden.

23 Q. And when you say "he," who exactly do you mean?

24 A. I mean Mr. Tadic.

25 Q. Mr. Tadic told you personally that you did not have enough money

Page 7482

1 to deserve to go on the exchange list; is that the essence of your

2 testimony?

3 A. Right. The warden had two letters of invitation sent by my family

4 from Italy and Turkey, certifying that I have family abroad, and that was

5 to confirm that they could expect some remuneration on my behalf.

6 Q. And when you protested -- or when you protested in that meeting,

7 how did -- well, did Mr. Tadic or the camp warden react?

8 A. Nothing. I said nothing. I was just returned to the hangar. I

9 think it was a policeman, a local policeman, who had a nickname of "little

10 dragon" who took me back to the hangar.

11 Q. Were you exchanged during this exchange following Mr. Tadic's

12 visit?

13 A. No. No.

14 Q. Was Sabah Seric indeed exchanged?

15 A. He had left, yes. He had gone.

16 Q. How much longer did you stay in -- sorry. Did you see -- did you

17 receive a visit from Mr. Tadic a second time or did you see Mr. Tadic in

18 the camp a second time after this episode?

19 A. Yes, I did. If I remember correctly, it was in July 1993, when an

20 exchange based on the all-for-all principle was to take place, on the

21 Satorovic separation line. Out of 400 or so prisoners in the camp, only

22 two of us from Samac remained. 180 had already been exchanged in previous

23 exchanges over the previous several months, so that only 20 of us

24 remained. Mr. Tadic was involved in this exchange, but he took us apart.

25 He singled us out and left us behind in the Batkovici camp.

Page 7483

1 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, this visit or this episode in July 1993, did

2 Mr. Tadic himself turn up at Batkovici camp? Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Had you received information prior to Mr. Tadic's arrival that an

5 exchange would take place?

6 A. We were so advised by the warden and the police. They said that

7 the camp would be closed and that an all-for-all exchange would be carried

8 out. Unfortunately, that's not what happened.

9 Q. You then said that Mr. Tadic took you apart, singled you out and

10 left you behind. Can you describe exactly what happened on the day that

11 you were told the exchange would occur and what exactly Mr. Tadic's

12 actions were in singling you out and leaving you behind?

13 A. In the compound of the camp, within the parameter, an order was

14 given: Muslims go to the left and Croats to the right, and people from

15 Samac stand in the middle. I didn't know the reason, because we too were

16 Muslims, and I don't know why we were not allowed to join the group of

17 other Muslims, why we were singled out, but that's what happened. And

18 when this order was given, names were read out, the names of those other

19 people, and they boarded the buses, whereas we were left behind.

20 Q. When the order was given for Muslims to go to the left, Croats to

21 the right, and the people from Bosanski Samac to stand in the middle,

22 where was Mr. Tadic? Was he present?

23 A. Yes, he was there.

24 Q. Was he the one who gave the instructions that people from Bosanski

25 Samac should stand in the middle?

Page 7484

1 A. Well, he and the warden of the camp were standing at the gate, and

2 the orders were announced by that policeman nicknamed "little dragon."

3 His name was Dragan.

4 Q. Were you ever given any explanation as to why the people from

5 Bosanski Samac were not allowed to board the bus?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you see Mr. Tadic in Batkovici camp after this episode in July

8 1993?

9 A. No, never.

10 Q. How much longer did you stay in Batkovici camp, Mr. Mehinovic?

11 A. Again, I was sent out to work to Panafleks company. Then I would

12 be taken back to Batkovici. And immediately before my release, I was in

13 Janja, but I was returned to Batkovici the day before my release. There

14 were 12 of us people from Samac there. I don't know when the others had

15 been exchanged, but there were 12 of us remaining, and we were taken to

16 the Pale camp. It was only at 5.00 in the afternoon that we got to the

17 Pale camp. We were supposed to be exchanged then and there, but it was

18 late, and the ICRC took us in, talked to us and told us that we were going

19 to be exchanged. After a while, we were put on a bus and got seated, and

20 we were at a separation line, where Mr. Jakusi was. And during all that

21 time that we spent at the separation line, we stayed there until 5.00

22 a.m., and at 5.00 a.m. we started boarding transporters headed for the

23 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was on the 6th of October,

24 1994.

25 Q. So Mr. Mehinovic, is it correct that you were in detention by the

Page 7485

1 Serb authorities until the 6th of October, 1994?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And whilst you were mainly detained in Batkovici, I understand

4 from your testimony that you've just given, that you were also taken out

5 on forced labour duties to various other locations during the 18 months or

6 so you spent in Batkovici.

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Yesterday you testified to a day when you were brought to what

9 appeared to be a courthouse in Bijeljina, and you were brought into a room

10 before people who you assumed to be judges. Apart from that incident in

11 the whole time you were detained, were you ever brought to any other

12 judicial proceedings?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, I'd like to ask you some questions on three

15 documents which relate to that episode in Bijeljina you told the Chamber

16 about yesterday.

17 MS. REIDY: And if I could ask for the usher's assistance.

18 Your Honour, the Defence counsel have these documents and I'll now

19 give to the usher copies to be distributed to the registry and the Bench.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe we have some technical

21 difficulties, because we cannot see what is on the ELMO. Actually, it is

22 a black screen here. Now it's okay. Thank you.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

24 The Bench has a black screen. Yes, now we are okay. You can

25 proceed.

Page 7486

1 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, for the record, this is a document which

2 bears the date the 19th of January, 1993, and subject to corrections by

3 Defence counsel, it purports to be a record of a hearing before a panel of

4 judges by this witness that took place in Bijeljina.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: This document was given to you by the Defence or --

6 MS. REIDY: That's correct, Your Honour. It was disclosed to us

7 by --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we can have the confirmation from the Defence

9 what this document is. Maybe it will cut down time.

10 Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these documents and

12 several following documents that will be presented during the proceedings

13 are actually criminal records of the court in Bijeljina in the proceedings

14 that were conducted against this witness here. On the 26th of March I

15 made them available to the Prosecution, and as far as I know, the

16 Prosecution has interviewed the witness about these documents. And the

17 only thing that is pending are translations; I'm informed they will be

18 ready by Friday. Under the law on criminal proceedings of the SFRY, this

19 document is a record of the questioning of the accused before the

20 investigating judge. I believe that is written on the title -- on the

21 cover sheet. Perhaps the Prosecution intends to elaborate on this, so I

22 will not go into any further explanations.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

24 Yes, Ms. Reidy.

25 MS. REIDY: Can I just make one correction to the record.

Page 7487

1 Mr. Lukic is correct, he did disclose a number of documents to us on the

2 26th of March. At that time, I believe due to the clerical error, two

3 pages of what he disclosed to us were not received. One page which I

4 addressed the Bench on yesterday and I was allowed to approach the client,

5 the second page which didn't come through with the documents was in fact

6 the second page of this three-page document. And just this morning

7 Mr. Lukic brought it to my attention that we hadn't received it because it

8 was on the reverse side of the original documentation. So the witness

9 will in fact, according to his evidence, never have seen one of these

10 pages. But I'm happy to proceed just to ask him questions on it without

11 addressing it.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You can go ahead.


14 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, could I ask you to look at the document that is on

15 the ELMO beside you. It may be easier for you to look at the actual

16 document rather than the screen, just so you can see the whole document.

17 Highlighted at the bottom is a signature. Does that -- do you recognise

18 that signature?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it your signature?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 MS. REIDY: Could I ask the usher to turn the page over.

23 Q. Could I just ask you to look at the signature at the bottom.

24 Again, that page, is that also your signature?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 7488

1 Q. And finally, the third page of that document. In the middle of

2 the page there's a third signature. Is that your signature?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mehinovic, you've heard the Defence counsel put on

5 the record that this purports to be a record of the hearing that took

6 place in Bijeljina. Did you give a statement to the judge whilst you

7 were -- when you were brought to this courthouse in Bijeljina?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did the judge -- whilst you were in front of who you believed to

10 be the judge, did the judge record anything and come down and make you

11 sign -- or request you to sign a statement?

12 A. He didn't make any notes. I don't remember signing this, but

13 maybe I was so afraid that I signed it without remembering.

14 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, could I ask you to look now at the second page of

15 the document, and there will be a portion at the bottom which is

16 highlighted. Could I ask you to read out very slowly on to the record, as

17 best as you can read the document, what it says in that highlighted

18 paragraph.

19 A. "The accused is informed that he has been assigned defence counsel

20 ex officio Ziko Krunic, attorney from Bijeljina. The request for the

21 conducting of an investigation by the military prosecutor's office of

22 Bijeljina."

23 THE INTERPRETER: The numbers are unclear.

24 A. "Number 22/52, dated 4th of January, 1993, is read out.

25 Q. Thank you. What you've just read out says that you have been

Page 7489

1 assigned an attorney from Bijeljina by the name of Ziko Krunic. Have you

2 ever heard the name Ziko Krunic before?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Have you ever met any person called Ziko Krunic?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Were you at any time told that you had a lawyer assigned to you by

7 the name of Ziko Krunic?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Before being in this courtroom today, have you ever read that

10 paragraph in this document which you just read out to the Chamber?

11 A. [No interpretation]


13 Q. Could you please repeat your answer to that question? I didn't

14 hear it.

15 A. No, I haven't had it so far.

16 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, could I ask you now to look at the third page of

17 that document, and again at the bottom there is a paragraph which is

18 highlighted, and I'd be grateful if you could read out slowly, for the

19 benefit of the interpreters, so that the Chamber knows what it says.

20 A. "An investigation will be conducted against the accused Kemal

21 Mehinovic, son of Muradif, from Bosanski Samac, on well-grounded suspicion

22 that he has committed the crime, suspicion that he committed a crime from

23 Article 124, paragraph 1, and related to Article 139, paragraph 3, taken

24 over from the Penal Code of the SFRY in the manner indicated in the

25 request for investigation. The present decision has been notified to the

Page 7490

1 accused, who states that he waives his right to appeal. The decision is

2 notified to the accused, who states that he waives his right to appeal and

3 does not require the decision to be overturned."

4 I do not wish to read the minutes. My statement has been recorded

5 truthfully, or faithfully, which I confirm with my signature."

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I might be -- Your Honours, I might be

8 wrong, but my English is not my native language. But I believe that the

9 last -- it's 13 -- page 13, row 3. "Require the decision to be

10 overturned." Actually, what it says is that the person does not wish that

11 the written copy is handed to him, so he waives the right -- because he's

12 waiving the right to appeal. He is also waiving the right to receive a

13 written copy to be handed over to him. I don't know whether the

14 "overturned" is exactly what it does say in the original. If the

15 translators can - I don't know.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters apologise. This word was really

17 unclear to us and the "overturning" was a guess.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: So what, according to the interpreters, what is the

19 correct version, then?

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters simply don't know. I'm sorry.

21 What counsel is saying may be completely right.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll proceed, because we are going to

23 have the English translation anyway, so we'll deal with it that way.


25 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, did you waive your right to appeal -- were you

Page 7491

1 advised of any decision that had been taken against you whilst you were in

2 any of the rooms in Bijeljina?

3 A. I personally am sure that I did not waive my right to appeal,

4 because based on all these things, from what I know, it is death penalty

5 that is the penalty for this, and I don't believe there is any such person

6 that would sign their own death penalty.

7 Q. Were you ever asked -- were you ever advised that you had a right

8 to appeal any decision taken by that panel you appeared in front of?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, the first part of your question at line

11 25: "Were you advised of any decision that had been taken against you?"

12 hasn't been answered.

13 MS. REIDY: Absolutely, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, could I ask you to address that same question

15 again? Did anyone ever advise you that a decision -- that there was a

16 well-grounded suspicion that you had committed a crime against Article 124

17 and related to Article 139 had been made?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And I understand from your last answer that you were never advised

20 that you had any right to appeal.

21 A. No.

22 Q. And did you at any stage, then, waive -- yourself decide that you

23 would waive a right to appeal?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you ever advised that you had a right to have a copy of any

Page 7492

1 decision that was reached against you, given a copy of that decision

2 handed over to you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you ever indicate to anybody in the courtroom that you waived

5 any right to have any copies of decisions given to you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ever state to anyone in the room of which you were --

8 which you were called into that you had no desire or you did not wish to

9 read any minutes that were taken of the proceedings?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Were you ever asked by anyone in the room whether or not you

12 wanted to review minutes of proceedings?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Was your statement recorded whilst you were in that room?

15 A. Not while I was there. This name, first and last name of the

16 person who was taking the notes, I see for the first time, and on the

17 right-hand side, from the decision, there is no signature of the

18 investigative judge. Therefore, I do not consider this decision to be

19 legally binding.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mehinovic. If you can just answer my questions on

21 the document, and we'll leave the other conclusions to be drawn.

22 Did you ever state that your statement had been recorded

23 truthfully or faithfully or did you ever see -- were you ever presented

24 with a copy of your statement which you acknowledged to be a truthful and

25 faithful recording?

Page 7493

1 A. No. No.

2 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, when was the first time that you saw this document

3 which -- from which you've just read --

4 A. Here at The Hague.

5 Q. At no stage during your period of detention did you ever read any

6 part of this document?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you have any explanation as to how your signature came to be

9 upon it?

10 A. As I said before, when I was at the so-called court, there were

11 only two or three words that were exchanged, and I don't quite remember

12 whether it was that I signed this here or in the hall, when the police

13 officer was supposed to take me to the correctional centre.

14 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, is your testimony that you don't remember signing

15 anything at all or that you remember signing something but you're not sure

16 whether it was in the hall or where you might have signed something?

17 A. I don't know. I cannot remember.

18 Q. So you cannot recall whether or not you signed something at all;

19 is that it?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. REIDY: I have a second document which I'd like to be shown --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have it numbered first for identification

23 purposes only.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It will be document P55 ter.

25 Thank you.

Page 7494

1 JUDGE MUMBA: For identification only, yes.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's right, Your Honours. It's P55 ID

3 ter. Thank you.

4 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, this is another document which we

5 received from Defence counsel for Mr. Tadic, and for the record, it

6 purports to be a receipt for the handover of certain documents to Mr. --

7 to a Mr. Kemal Mehinovic.

8 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, if you see that document on the ELMO, in the centre

9 of the page there is a word in Cyrillic highlighted. Could you just read

10 that out into the record.

11 A. "Receipt."

12 Q. On the right-hand corner of that document, there is a place for a

13 signature and there's a faint name. Can you read out, to the best of your

14 ability, what appears on the right-hand corner of that document.

15 A. In the first line, I can read a signature, Mehinovic, and the

16 second part, however, is very blurry. I don't think this is the original

17 of the signature. I didn't -- I mean, I disagree with the signature.

18 Q. Mr. Mehinovic --

19 A. Whether it's my signature or not, I don't know.

20 Q. You're saying -- so the name on the right-hand corner, you do not

21 positively recognise as your signature; is that your testimony?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, up in the left-hand corner there's also a

24 highlighted line. Could you read out what is highlighted there on the top

25 left-hand corner.

Page 7495

1 A. In my opinion, it says "March 27th."

2 Q. Can you recall whether sometime in March you were ever handed any

3 sort of documents relating to trial proceedings in Bijeljina?

4 A. I cannot recall.

5 Q. Did anyone ever give you any documents relating to decisions taken

6 against you in Bijeljina or to the assignment of counsel to you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you ever remember signing any receipt acknowledging acceptance

9 of delivery of documents?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. At any time on the 27th of March 1993, or at any time in 1993 and

12 1994, did someone come to you in Batkovici and give you documents?

13 A. I did not receive any. It might the case that I was working at

14 the time, but I didn't receive any documents, nor do I know that anybody

15 came to give me documents.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, again could I ask that this be given an

18 identification number.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Could we have a number for identification

20 only, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: It is P56 ter ID, Your Honours.

22 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, this is the third and final document of

23 this nature I'd like to put to the witness. I'm afraid the copy itself is

24 quite faint, and I'm hoping that we will be able to read out just the

25 important parts to advise the Chamber what this document is about.

Page 7496

1 JUDGE MUMBA: The copy which is given to the witness is as bad as

2 these copies?

3 MS. REIDY: If Your Honours are able to see the ELMO, you will see

4 that when portions which I'd ask the witness to read out are highlighted,

5 it does make the writing that little bit more visible.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You can proceed. Yes, you can proceed,

7 if the witness will be able to read. That's fine.


9 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, again you'll see a document on the ELMO, and there

10 will be a portion in it which is highlighted. Could I ask you again to

11 read out, as best as you're able to - and please read it slowly so that

12 the interpreters can catch the interpretation - what that highlighted

13 portion of this document says.

14 A. "Decision terminating the criminal proceedings against the accused

15 Mehinovic Kemal, son of Muradif, born on the 6th of May, 1956, in

16 Bosanski Samac, residing in Vuk Karadzic Street number 64. For the crime

17 of armed insurgency based on Article 124, paragraph 1 relating to the

18 Article 135, act 3..."

19 These two things I cannot discern.

20 "Because the law amending the law on amnesty, public gazette of

21 Republika Srpska number 17 through 39 -- through 99 was relieved of

22 prosecution."

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can confirm that the

25 witness read the text; however, the first two words that the witness read,

Page 7497

1 therefore -- I have a much better copy. Therefore, I would like to read

2 the first two words again. I would like to suggest that the witness do it

3 again.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The criminal proceedings against

6 the accused Kemal Mehinovic is being terminated. He's the son of Muradif,

7 born on May 6th, 1956 in Bosanski Samac and resides in Vuk Karadzic Street

8 number 64. For the crime of armed insurgence see based on Article

9 124, paragraph 1, relating to the Article 135, Act 3, KZRS because the law

10 amending the law on amnesty S1 gazette of RS number 17 through 99 of July

11 15th, 1999 was relieve of prosecution."

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, just for the purposes of accuracy,

14 it's the Article 139 and not 135. It says armed insurgency according to

15 Article 134 paragraph 1 in connection to Article 139, paragraph 2 or 3. I

16 don't know. I don't see it. And the transcript it's 135. So if the

17 witness can read again, because he has a much better copy than I have on

18 the ELMO. But I know it's 139.

19 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, just to save the witness reading it,

20 we're willing to concede it's 139.


22 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you. Then it's no problem.


24 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, could I ask you to turn again to the document on

25 the ELMO that you've just been reading from, or maybe indeed you could

Page 7498

1 keep your eye on the better copy that the Defence provided you with. Can

2 you see a date on this document in the top left-hand corner?

3 A. The date is March 22nd, 2000.

4 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, were you advised that criminal proceedings had been

5 terminated against you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. When was the first time that you learnt of this decision?

8 A. Here in The Hague.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. REIDY: And again, I'd just ask that that be given a number

11 for identification purposes.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have a number for identification

13 purposes only.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. I apologise, Your Honours. It

15 seems that we've been having a problem with the electric microphone. We

16 have the technicians on it right now.

17 It will be document P57 ter ID.


19 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, you have told the Chamber that you were finally

20 released in October 1994. In which place in Bosnia were you actually

21 released?

22 A. In Sarajevo. I had an exchange in Sarajevo.

23 Q. And ultimately, Mr. Mehinovic, where did you end up living, or

24 where do you live now?

25 A. I live in the United States now, in Salt Lake City, in Utah.

Page 7499

1 Q. After you were detained in Bosanski Samac, what happened to your

2 wife and your son and your daughter? Did they remain in Bosanski Samac?

3 A. No. They were exchanged, I think in July of 1993. The location

4 of the exchange was Dragalicevo, on the Croatian side. Orasje, that

5 belonged to Croatia, to the HVO. They took in my family until I arrived

6 from the exchange in 1994. Towards the end of 1994/early 1995, I asked

7 for help in Osijek from UNHCR. There I was informed that I can leave

8 Croatia and ask to be resettled into another country. From them I

9 received all the possible documentation, also paid transportation to the

10 United States.

11 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, did you ever discuss with your wife her exchange?

12 A. No. I wasn't able to, nor did I have the opportunity. When I met

13 up with my wife, she told me that she had not wanted to be exchanged

14 because I was still in a camp at the time, and she thought it would have

15 been better for her to stay in Samac in expectation of my release.

16 Q. Thank you. So can I just clarify something, Mr. Mehinovic. At

17 the time I understand you did not have the opportunity to discuss your

18 wife's exchange, but after she was exchanged and after you were reunited

19 with your family, did you have an opportunity to discuss with her her

20 exchange and what had happened to her after you had been arrested?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And if she told you that she didn't want to be exchanged because

23 she didn't know what your fate was, why was it that she was exchanged in

24 Dragalic in 1993. Did she explain to you how that came about?

25 A. The explanation is simple: They were not able to stay there

Page 7500

1 because a large group of people from Bosanski Samac was taken for an

2 exchange.

3 MS. REIDY: Could I ask that the witness be shown a document?

4 This is a list of persons to be exchanged in Dragalic. I believe it

5 contains the name of this witness's wife and his children and other

6 persons, and we have an English translation of it. So perhaps the B/C/S

7 could be put on the ELMO beside the witness and the English translations

8 distributed to the Bench --


10 MS. REIDY: -- and the legal officer.

11 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, can you see to your right there a document which

12 purports to be a list of persons to cross into Croatia for an exchange

13 planned on the 15th of June, 1993, in Dragalic? Do you see that document

14 beside you?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Could I ask you to turn to the second page of that document,

17 second page in the B/C/S version, and to look down the left-hand column,

18 and you'll see names beside the number 46, a name Fazila Mehinovic. Do

19 you know Fazila Mehinovic?

20 A. That's my wife.

21 Q. Could you advise the Chamber who the next five persons under the

22 name of your wife are, the next five persons, down to the number 52?

23 A. That is my wife's sister and her children. My children are under

24 numbers 51 and 52. Damir and Elvira Mehinovic.

25 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us how old your children were at the

Page 7501

1 time of this exchange?

2 A. My son was about 15 and my daughter 9.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. REIDY: I think those were the only questions I have to ask

5 the witness. He won't be familiar with the list otherwise. Could I ask

6 that it be entered into evidence and be given an exhibit number.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think there's no objection from the

8 Defence. Can we have the document as an exhibit.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will be P58 for the English

10 translation and P58 ter for the B/C/S version. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

12 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I have one final document to show the

13 witness. It's a document that we have an English translation of, but I

14 think it would serve the Bench better when they have the document in front

15 of them that I explain what it is.

16 Your Honours, this is a list of persons of Muslim and Croat

17 nationality left in Bosanski Samac. As you see, we've provided a

18 translation of it, and because the document, which is four pages, is in

19 essence a list of names, going from numbers 1 through to 277, what the

20 Translation Unit have done is just to pick out those names on the list

21 where there appear something more than just the name of the person. So,

22 for example, at number 22, the name Sehapovic Ahmet, it says "and child."

23 So is the Bench clear on how the Translation Unit have approached this

24 translation?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, except -- yes. These names on the -- what are

Page 7502












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7503

1 called the English list is an extract from the Serbo-Croat list, and it

2 just shows some extra information about certain names. What I want to

3 know is: The list says of Muslims and Croats in Bosanski Samac. Is it --

4 at what stage?

5 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, this is indeed a problem. The document

6 was given to us by both sources, people who had worked from the Serbian

7 commission of exchanges and also those on the Croatian side who had

8 received persons who formerly lived in Bosanski Samac. The document came

9 to us in this format, and unfortunately it doesn't have a date on it,

10 which does mean that it's not clear when this was. Now, this witness's

11 name appears on this list, the wife -- the names of his wife and children

12 and that don't. So I'm afraid that the Prosecution had simply stated

13 that -- this was at some stage after July 1993, and we're in a position we

14 can say -- we don't know exactly when -- what date this list was drawn up

15 and except that it was -- it appears to be after July -- after June 1993,

16 and certainly prior to this witness being released from custody or being

17 transferred to Batkovici. But I'm afraid both copies were given to the

18 Prosecution without a date indicated, and we realise that that has an

19 impact on the weight which the Bench can attach to it, but we would like

20 to have it in evidence nonetheless.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: What's the purpose of having it in evidence? What

22 is it supposed to show?

23 MS. REIDY: Well, Your Honour, you'll know that the Prosecution

24 case is that from 17.000 or more Bosnians and Muslims who used to live in

25 Bosanski Samac, that by this process of what we've termed so-called

Page 7504

1 exchanges and other means, that the Bosnian and -- that the Muslim and

2 Croat population in Bosanski Samac, at the end of this process, had

3 dwindled to just under 300, and that is a figure that we came up with from

4 the evidence available to the Prosecution. This is one of those pieces --

5 this was a document where it is purported they have listed the remaining

6 Bosnian -- and the commissions drew up a list of the remaining persons

7 [Realtime transcript read in error "Americans"] in Bosanski Samac who had

8 Muslim or Croat ethnicity. As I said, I know that as a document it has

9 its flaws, and therefore the weight to be given to it must be carefully

10 considered by the Bench, but we would like to have it in evidence for what

11 it's worth as it is part of the Prosecution case.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, the problem is it has no date, and from

13 your explanation, why don't you call the sources of the document to give

14 evidence on it? Because this witness can't explain anything about this

15 document.

16 MS. REIDY: No, Your Honour, but the witness can identify that his

17 name appears on the list. He does also have information as to other

18 persons from this list who are of -- supposedly of Croat and Muslim origin

19 and who this list purports -- are still remaining in Bosanski Samac. This

20 list has been disclosed to all Defence counsel for a couple of years now,

21 and we've never had any challenge to it as it being in any way less than

22 authentic. And I said the sources were both -- we got this document from

23 both a Serb source and a Croat source. These were exchanges going on

24 about persons living in the area and presumably involved in the whole

25 process of swapping population figures and names in exchanges. So as I

Page 7505

1 said, Your Honour, we know it is a flawed document, but we do consider

2 that we would like to see it in evidence and the appropriate weight to be

3 attributed to it in the final overall evaluation when the Prosecution case

4 rests.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. First of all, -- sorry. Yes.

7 Thank you. Your Honours, in fact, I would like to intervene. It's page

8 26, line 5. It's something a little bit unlogic, unclear. "A list of

9 remaining Americans in Bosanski Samac who had Muslim or Croat ethnicity."

10 Maybe it's not the case. So it's just intervention in order to clear up

11 the transcript.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: To correct.

13 MR. PANTELIC: But about the submission of our learned friends

14 from the Prosecution, maybe we could add something later. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, what's the correct -- what is it supposed

16 to be? How should it read correctly?

17 MS. REIDY: Well, it certainly shouldn't read "Americans," so I'm

18 happy to go with persons of -- I think persons of Muslim and Croat

19 ethnicity is probably the appropriate term.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought I saw some other counsel. Mr. Lukic.

21 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I suggest that for now

23 we give this document only a number for identification. First of all, I

24 believe that this document was only partially delivered to the

25 Prosecution -- in fact, sorry, it was made available to the Prosecution by

Page 7506

1 only one side, the Serbian side, not the Croatian side, and that also

2 bears on the weight to be attached to this evidence. And some of the

3 facts stated by my colleague from the Prosecution, such as that there were

4 only 17.000 Croats and Muslims in Samac are not quite true. There were in

5 total 5.000 citizens of all nationalities in Samac. This list purports to

6 be a list of people located in Bosanski Samac. That's why I believe that

7 it would be worthwhile to call the person who made this list available to

8 the Prosecution, and I believe it was only one side, not both sides, that

9 presented the list. But that is something that I can confirm only after

10 the break.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.

12 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'm happy to have it marked for

13 identification purposes now -- I'm sorry. Your Honour, I'm happy to have

14 it marked for identification purposes now, and --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: You'll deal with matters that have been raised

16 later.

17 MS. REIDY: Exactly. And further witnesses may be able to comment

18 and throw light on this document.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Essentially -- okay. I think we'll have the one in

20 Serbo-Croat marked as usual and the one in English will have its own

21 number, for both identification purposes only.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the B/C/S version will be P59 ter ID

23 and the English version P59 ID. Thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

25 Yes, Ms. Reidy. You can proceed.

Page 7507


2 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, can I ask you to look at the document on the ELMO,

3 and perhaps you could turn to the third page of the document.

4 Mr. Mehinovic, at number 171, does your name appear?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was there any other Kemal Mehinovic living in Bosanski Samac at

7 the time, that you were aware of?

8 A. No. No. I'm the only Kemal Mehinovic in Bosanski Samac. Apart

9 from my family, that is, the family of my father, there is -- there are no

10 other Mehinovics in Bosanski Samac.

11 Q. Do you know anyone by the name of Hasan Mehinovic, the name that

12 appears below yours?

13 A. There is no such name in Bosanski Samac.

14 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, did I ask you to have a look through this list at

15 the weekend when you arrived in The Hague?

16 A. You did.

17 Q. Did you recognise a lot of the names that appear on this list?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. And of those you were able to recognise, did most of them come

20 from Bosanski Samac, or did all of them come from Bosanski Samac?

21 A. Most of them -- all of these people are from Bosanski Samac.

22 Q. Out of the names listed, did you recognise a lot of those names as

23 persons that you knew to be members of the 4th Detachment?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. On the page on which your name appears, could you perhaps just

Page 7508

1 indicate by reference to the numbers any of those people who you said were

2 with the 4th Detachment.

3 A. Number 158, number 169, 170, 173, 177, 183, and 184, 186, 188, 196

4 and 197.

5 Q. Okay. Mr. Mehinovic, I'll ask you to stop there. I think you've

6 given us some indication of the number. Before you came to The Hague, had

7 you ever been shown this list before?

8 A. No, I haven't.

9 MS. REIDY: That's all I wanted to ascertain from the witness from

10 that list for the moment. Thank you.

11 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, so that you were finally able to move to the United

12 States, is it the case that since you've been in the United States, that

13 you initiated a lawsuit based on some of the things that happened to you

14 in Bosanski Samac?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. Was that a criminal case or a civil case?

17 A. A civil case.

18 Q. And who was the civil case against?

19 A. Against Nikola Vukovic, also known as Batan.

20 Q. Was Nikola Vukovic also in America at the time that you instigated

21 this case?

22 A. Yes, he was.

23 Q. How did you know that he was in America at the time?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in keeping with the

Page 7509

1 ruling of the Trial Chamber made last week, we are talking here about the

2 period of time which goes far beyond the indictment. I mean, the

3 questions that are being asked by the Prosecution now, and I believe also

4 the questions are being asked about persons who are irrelevant for our

5 case.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, yes.

7 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, the only reason I go down this route is

8 because this is a case which Defence counsel have frequently brought into

9 issue here. They have -- particularly Defence counsel for Mr. Milan Simic

10 raised it and in fact asked this Bench to take judicial notice of the

11 initial filing by lawyers of this civil case. We now have before us the

12 primary witness who initiated that suit. I only intend to ask a few

13 questions. I don't need to, if the Chamber considers this wholly

14 irrelevant, I'm happy to stop. That is the only reason I led evidence on

15 this at all, because of what has already arisen in this case, initiated by

16 Defence counsel. So if they're not going to raise the case with this or

17 any other witness, then of course I will not lead on it.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: You can go ahead, for whatever it's worth.


20 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, the question I asked you was just: How did you

21 know that Mr. Vukovic was in America at the time?

22 A. Through a friend who lives in the same city and works for the same

23 company. He called me and said, "Your friend Batan is in Atlanta."

24 Q. During those proceedings that you started, how many times did you

25 ever make a statement to the court about your -- what happened to you in

Page 7510

1 Bosanski Samac?

2 A. One day when both of us -- both he and I were summoned, together

3 with many witnesses, we appeared before the court, and that's when our

4 case was discussed. But there was a period before that during which my

5 lawyers were engaged on it.

6 Q. This one day, when was it?

7 A. As far as I remember, it was in the year 2001, towards the end of

8 the year. I'm not sure.

9 Q. Was Mr. Vukovic actually in the courtroom --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


12 Q. Was Mr. Vukovic actually in the courtroom when your case was

13 discussed?

14 A. No. He didn't show up, nor were his counsel there.

15 Q. Were you successful in the case against Mr. Vukovic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was Mr. Vukovic the only defendant in the case in the United

18 States?

19 A. Yes, he was.

20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mehinovic, just to finish your examination, I'd

21 like to ask you some questions pertaining to any long-term injuries or

22 medical complications you may have sustained as a result of what you

23 experienced during detention in Bosanski Samac. Could you advise the

24 Chamber whether or not you -- or after you had been released, whether you

25 required any form of medical intervention or medical treatment as a result

Page 7511

1 of injuries or complications you sustained following from your detention

2 in Bosanski Samac.

3 A. After I was exchanged in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I had no occasion

4 to see a doctor. There were not enough doctors. And moreover, I didn't

5 have enough money. However, when I arrived in the States, via Croatia, I

6 was entitled to medical assistance and I went through first check-ups, and

7 they confirmed my original suspicions about some dark areas in my abdomen

8 and elsewhere in my body. Until 1999, I continued working; however, one

9 morning I was unable to get up, and paramedics arrived, together with my

10 doctor, who said, "You'll have to see me one of these days and we'll have

11 to do something urgently." On the 11th of January 2000, I underwent four

12 surgeries in six days. Half of my stomach was extracted, and eight

13 centimetres in one section of my intestines and eight centimetres of

14 another intestine and half of a kidney. I have proof, and my doctors can

15 confirm, that these injuries were due to blows and that I had in those

16 areas dark stains which could be seen on x-rays and scans. These parts of

17 organs had to be taken out. I have to this day problems with my ribs and

18 my head. On the back of my head, there is a fissure, five centimetres

19 long and two centimetres deep. To this day I have frequent pains, for

20 which I take painkillers.

21 Thank you very much. That's it.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a break?

23 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll have a break and continue our proceedings at

25 1615 hours.

Page 7512

1 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

4 MS. REIDY: Thank you. I'll just be a few minutes more, Your

5 Honours, and then I intend to close the examination-in-chief.

6 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, before the break you told the Chamber of various

7 medical treatments you've undergone. Are you required now to constantly

8 take medication for your ailments?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Have your doctors indicated to you that that medication -- you'll

11 have to take that medication for the foreseeable future?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, I now want to finally ask you about what happened

14 to the flats and the two restaurants that you and your brother owned,

15 which we saw in the photograph entered into evidence as Prosecution

16 Exhibit P53. When your wife and your children were forced to partake in

17 the exchange in June 1993, were they told what was going to happen -- or

18 were they allowed to take with them all the possessions that were in your

19 flat in Bosanski Samac?

20 A. No, they were not allowed to take anything. There was a military

21 policeman called Naser Sejdic, and there was another colleague of his who

22 made a record and a list of the property, of my entire property. They

23 were only allowed to take one bag. My wife was allowed to take this one

24 bag to have a change of clothes.

25 Q. Was your wife given a copy of this record or list of property

Page 7513

1 which was made?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Was your wife told what would happen to the property which was

4 recorded on this list?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Have you ever since then received back or received any information

7 about what happened to the property that was put onto that list?

8 A. I found out that the majority of my property was thrown out or

9 dispersed, and later, first there was a police command in my apartment,

10 and also -- on my side and on my brother's side, and after that they moved

11 out, and then they allowed other persons to move in who were families of

12 Serb ethnicity.

13 Q. From whom did you find out that your property had been thrown out

14 or dispersed?

15 A. From my friends who came to the States and who were longer in

16 Bosanski Samac than I was.

17 Q. Have you made any attempt to reclaim or get compensation for your

18 property or your businesses and flats which you had to give up in Bosanski

19 Samac?

20 A. Last year my brother went to Bosanski Samac. I gave him a power

21 of attorney for my property, so that he could start proceedings to have my

22 property returned. In the meantime, he got his part of the house, but he

23 did not get my part of the house because he said that the power of

24 attorney was no longer valid and that I had to go there by myself.

25 Q. Did your brother get any of his possessions back?

Page 7514

1 A. Yes. My brother got his part of the house back and also his

2 establishment. In the part where my establishment used to be, my friend,

3 Uros Cane was located. In the meantime, he closed the establishment. He

4 won't give the key to anyone. The establishment no longer operates. And a

5 woman with her child is living in my apartment currently.

6 Q. Did your brother get any of his movable possessions back in

7 addition to the physical house and the establishment?

8 A. No. There was none left.

9 Q. And did your brother ever receive any compensation for any things

10 that he had lost or that had been destroyed or that had been taken away

11 from his properties in Bosanski Samac?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, would you yourself ultimately like to go back to

14 Bosanski Samac?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you say that you exercised your free choice to leave Bosanski

17 Samac?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you want to leave Bosanski Samac in April 1992?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did your wife or your children want to leave Bosanski Samac in

22 April 1992?

23 A. No.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, calls for speculation. How can he

Page 7515

1 know when he was in prison what was the idea of his wife and his children?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps wife and husband are one.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps wife and husband are one.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: You don't understand what I'm saying. Perhaps

7 husband and wife are one so he --

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Probably, but she should somehow rephrase the

9 question whether he was told by his wife.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: By his wife, yes.

11 Ms. Reidy.

12 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I've already covered this in my

13 examination. I've asked the witness whether or not since he was reunited

14 with his family did he discuss her exchange and that, and I didn't ask, I

15 think, you know specifically this, but I think the fact that they talked

16 about it and some of the circumstances are already on the record. So I

17 think the ground is already laid as to --


19 MS. REIDY: -- context or how he could answer that question.

20 Indeed, Your Honour, that is my final question in examination-in-chief.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

22 Cross-examination. Who is going to start. Mr. Lukic.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Mehinovic. I am going to ask

25 you a number of questions in the cross-examination section. Before I

Page 7516

1 begin this cross-examination, I would like to ask you, and I'm also going

2 to make sure that my questions are formulated in such a way, I would like

3 you to answer me as short as possible so that we can finish this section

4 as soon as we can. I would like your answers to be "yes," "no," or "I

5 don't know" if you do not know anything about the circumstances in

6 question.

7 I would also like to remind you, and I'd also like to remind

8 myself, that the two of us here are speaking and understanding the same

9 language, but it is necessary for the interpreters to interpret both my

10 questions and your answers to other participants, and therefore I would

11 like to ask you to make a short pause before you start responding so that

12 the interpreters can catch up; otherwise there will be an overlap.

13 I would like to ask you a number of questions about the conditions

14 in Bosanski Samac before you were confined, while you were still under the

15 labour obligation and you were moving around the town. You answered the

16 Prosecution's questions once by saying that the water supply system was

17 broken. Could you please tell me when that water supply system was broken

18 and how long there was no water.

19 A. I don't know the exact date when the water supply system was

20 broken, and I also don't know when it was restarted, because I was taken

21 to Batkovici. While I was there, there was no water.

22 Q. So the entire -- your stay until you were taken to Batkovici,

23 there was no water?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you please tell me the situation regarding water --

Page 7517

1 electricity?

2 A. Same. There was no electricity.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.

4 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, could I ask counsel to be more clear, to

5 ascertain more clarity as to this water supply system. Because the

6 witness testified to the fact that there was no water whilst he was

7 already in detention, while he was in the SUP building and that building

8 had no water in the toilet. And if Mr. Novak is talking about general

9 conditions, then I think it's important to clarify that this information

10 about the water was -- the witness has testified only about when he was in

11 detention, and I think what's on the record now is not clear that it

12 relates to that period.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. Mr. Lukic can do that.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I understand the remark of the

15 Prosecutor. My first question was: Before he was incarcerated, in the

16 period before he was incarcerated in Bosanski Samac, while he was still

17 under the work obligation, was there no water then?

18 A. Yes, there was no water. We were bringing water from the artesian

19 well.

20 Q. Did any citizens of Samac have water?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you remember what the situation was with electricity? Were

23 there any cuts of electricity?

24 A. In the first day, there was electricity. I don't remember the

25 time or the date, but later there was no electricity.

Page 7518

1 Q. Can you tell us approximately whether this was after a month that

2 there was no more electricity, ten days, fifteen days?

3 A. No. I think it was maybe three to four days.

4 Q. So if I understand you correctly, several days after April 17th,

5 there was no more electricity in Samac.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I assume that there was also no electricity for all the citizens

8 of Samac equally.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was there any shelling of Samac?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were those shellings frequent?

13 A. In the first days, yes, they were. That also happened maybe four

14 or five days, there was shellings then.

15 Q. I assume there was a lot of damaged buildings.

16 A. In the area of the embankment, Vjenac JNA, from what I know, yes.

17 I could only see that because that's where I was working. I don't know

18 anything about the rest.

19 Q. Could you tell us more about this area of embankment? From what

20 area were these shellings coming from? Could you answer?

21 A. I don't know. I'm not an expert.

22 Q. But opposite from this embankment there was this territory was

23 under the situation -- under the rule of the HVO; is that correct?

24 A. I think so.

25 Q. I'm going to use the numbers from the unofficial transcript,

Page 7519

1 because we haven't received the official transcript yet. On page 12,

2 during your statements yesterday, while you were describing your movements

3 in the morning of April 17th of 1992, you said that you saw your fellow

4 citizens, Ibela Bicic and some other civilians, and you went into the

5 streets with them, went towards the department store, and then joined them

6 in their movement towards the school.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. These people that you saw, how many were there, approximately?

9 Can you make an assumption?

10 A. I think I already said this once. I think there were about 20

11 people. I don't know the exact number.

12 Q. Were they armed?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did they have automatic rifles? Or let me ask you in a more

15 simple way. Did they have both rifles and automatic rifles? Did you see

16 that somebody had that type of weapon?

17 A. I saw rifles, the so-called PAPs.

18 Q. You already stated several times yesterday that at that moment you

19 did not have any weapons with you.

20 A. No, I did not.

21 Q. Before you went into the streets, you described that your brother

22 warned you not to leave the house; is that correct?

23 A. I said that he came to my establishment, to my bakery, and told

24 me, "What? Are you crazy? Where are you going? Can't you see it's

25 war?" And then I returned home.

Page 7520

1 Q. Did you feel any fear when your brother told you this?

2 A. No.

3 Q. But you still did not stay in the bakery?

4 A. No, of course not. I went home.

5 Q. You also stated that you heard Mr. Ibela Salkic saying that there

6 was a massacre of citizens in Donja Mahala and that they were going there

7 to defend them, and that's why you went with them.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. After April 17th, did you hear anything about that massacre, what

10 kind of a massacre it was?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you hear that that day or on a later day there was any

13 massacre at all in Bosanski Samac?

14 A. On that day, I didn't hear.

15 Q. Did you hear that somebody was murdered on April 17th of 1992?

16 A. On the 17th of April, I didn't hear anything, but I did hear

17 something about that on the 18th.

18 Q. How many people were killed on the 18th?

19 A. As far as I know, in Donja Mahala, one person was killed. This

20 was a person of Croatian ethnicity. He was called Ropo Dzebic.

21 Q. This was the only death, forced death, so to speak, in the period

22 of 17th, 18th, in Samac?

23 A. Yes, as far as I'm aware.

24 Q. In responding to the Prosecutor, you didn't say this, but I'm

25 asking you now: Why did you go with these people?

Page 7521

1 A. Because I was curious, and also because of my security, because I

2 wanted to know where to go.

3 Q. When you were told to go back home, you weren't curious any more

4 to continue?

5 A. No.

6 Q. This whole event and your movements on April 17th was described in

7 the same way to Milos Savic and here in front of the Chamber?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I compared it, and these are really identical facts, except that

10 you are claiming --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

12 MS. REIDY: Can I have the statement directly from the record?

13 This is the counsel now putting his comments on the record. I've compared

14 these are identical. He's making assertions. If he wants to ask the

15 witness some question, he can, but that phrase is inappropriate.


17 Yes, Mr. Lukic. The objection is sustained.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You have read the statement in front of the Chamber before you

20 testified that was also found at -- by -- with Milos Savic. Are there any

21 differences in what you said there and what you said here, except for the

22 part where you claim that you weren't carrying arms?

23 A. No, there is no difference except that I was not carrying any

24 arms.

25 Q. That's how I understood you.

Page 7522

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Also when you were describing the work obligation, you said that

3 you were digging trenches, as far as I understand, in Pisari. Were you

4 digging trenches anywhere else?

5 A. At the embankment in Bosanski Samac. I showed you on the map.

6 That was digging trenches and also building bunkers.

7 Q. And you were also digging trenches in Pisari. That you said at

8 the very beginning.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That was the separation line with the opposite side?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did this separation line also reach the village of Zaselica?

13 A. I don't know, because I didn't go there.

14 Q. You said that you gave the statement to inspector Savic in July of

15 1992.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On page 67 of yesterday's transcript, you also said that you saw

18 Tadic at one occasion while you were incarcerated at the TO.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When there was an exchange planned, and the Prosecutor asked you

21 what the people that were detained there looked like, and then you

22 described two people that you know were injured while you were there.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. But you also said you are not personally familiar with the issue

25 whether prisoners were exchanging clothes or not.

Page 7523

1 A. No, I wasn't.

2 Q. But then on page 62, you said that, when the Prosecutor asked you

3 whether the family could through guards --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

5 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, this may be a problem with the

6 transcript, but the question of counsel that "you are not personally

7 familiar with the issue whether prisoners were exchanging clothes or not"

8 appears to my reading that could be the prisoners were exchanging clothes

9 amongst themselves or something. I think what the witness testified to

10 was that he did not know after prisoners were taken away whether or not

11 they were given some sort of clean clothes. They just left in the same

12 clothes they came in with. After that, during the exchange he couldn't

13 know whether they were given clean clothes. I would just like it to be

14 clarified, because for me that question whether the prisoners were

15 exchanging clothes or not could refer to a completely different action.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's a bit misleading, Mr. Lukic. Can you

17 rephrase your question.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I'm going to read to the witness what he said on the page 69,

20 because the translation is also unclear to me, and through that, through

21 his statement, we could clear this up what he said.

22 When asked, on page 69, line 8, when asked by the Prosecutor

23 whether Mr. Tadic could see whether the prisoners had clean clothes, he

24 said, and I will read this in English.

25 [In English] "I personally don't know if they received or changed

Page 7524

1 clothes, but from the TO, they left. They went out wearing the same

2 clothes that they had when they first arrived."

3 [Interpretation] That's what the transcript says, and therefore I

4 would like to ask you to clarify. Relevant to the prisoners that were

5 imprisoned at the TO building, did they go through the exchange dressed

6 the same way as you saw them when you were there?

7 A. Yes. They were taken from my room wearing the same clothes that

8 they had on. They were taken to the buses. The bus was in front of the

9 doors of the TO building. And what happened later, I have no idea.

10 Whether they were changing clothes later or not, I do not know.

11 Q. The Prosecutor asked you, on page 62, whether the families could

12 bring food and clothes through the guards. You said yes.

13 A. Yes. After June or July, that was being allowed a little bit,

14 because we all said to our guards that we had lice and that we had yellow

15 jaundice. It is well known to everybody that those days we were -- our

16 heads were shaven and we were allowed to change clothes, those people that

17 had clothes to change, who received them from their families.

18 Q. Were you -- was your head shaved before or after you came to talk

19 to Milos Savic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You didn't say this to the Prosecutor yesterday. So before July

22 of 1992 --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

24 MS. REIDY: Again, it maybe just a transcript problem but at the

25 moment the record states that the question was: "Was your head shaved

Page 7525

1 before or after you came to talk to Milos Savic?" And the answer is

2 "Yes." So the record doesn't reflect whether it's before or after, so

3 perhaps counsel could clarify that.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I thought I just asked whether he had his head shaved before, not

7 after, but in the transcript it says both.

8 So did you have your head shaved before you went to see Milos

9 Savic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Also on page 73 of yesterday's transcript, describing your

12 appearance when meeting Milos Savic, you said that it took place in July

13 and you said that prisoners had the opportunity to change into the clothes

14 brought to them by their families.

15 A. Yes. That was in July.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

17 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, what the witness actually said was -- he

18 was asked: "Were you in the same clothes you were arrested in on the 27th

19 of May?" He said "Yes. Only after the interrogation did we begin to get

20 a change of clothes and other things that our families..." Now the

21 question again, as I read it on the transcript, is saying, is being put to

22 the witness that he said he had the opportunity to change his clothes

23 before the interrogation, and that's not what the witness put on the

24 record yesterday. So I think it's mis -- it's misleading the witness as

25 to what he had said yesterday.

Page 7526

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, you can clarify that with the witness or

2 rephrase your question.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I didn't want to mislead the witness.

4 I just wanted to have these facts clarified. But I'll ask just one more

5 question.

6 Q. When did you see Tadic?

7 A. I think it could have been February or March. I'm not sure. No,

8 not February. No, no, not February or March. It was in May when the

9 exchange of Croats took place, because among that number of 180, there

10 were about 70 Croats.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: What year was this?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992. I can't pin down the month

13 exactly, but it was after we were transferred from SUP to the TO an

14 exchange took place, before we were allowed and before we got lice.

15 That's when this exchange took place. I'm not sure about the time.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. But it was Croats who were exchanged, in your words?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Just one more thing. My question was not recorded in the

20 transcript. This refers to your sighting of Tadic in the TO yard; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You described, Mr. Mehinovic, your trip to the court in

24 Bijeljina. Was that the first time that you were going to a court?

25 A. It was the first time that I went to a military court, yes.

Page 7527












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7528

1 Q. And before that, had you visited a civilian court?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were criminal proceedings instituted against you in the former

4 Yugoslavia for the crime of embezzlement?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you were convicted?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us when this was?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Did you ever, before talking to Milos Savic, in any kind of

11 proceedings, give a statement at a police station?

12 A. No.

13 Q. In those criminal proceedings for embezzlement, you also gave no

14 statement to the police?

15 A. No.

16 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, can I --


18 MS. REIDY: I'd like to object to this line of questioning. I

19 have no problem with Defence counsel seeking to elicit whether or not a

20 witness has any prior convictions as quite the permissible. But to go

21 into details about the procedures and what he went through, has absolutely

22 no relevance to do with the indictment or this trial.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think my questions are relevant,

25 because they relate to the procedure and the proceedings, since the

Page 7529

1 witness has already confirmed that he had been a defendant in criminal

2 proceedings, I suppose the procedure that applied to citizens living on

3 the territory covered by those laws matters. That's why I want to

4 compare, together with him, the procedure applied then and the procedure

5 in the military court, his experience of the military court in Bijeljina.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Unless there's going to be evidence that the

7 procedures are the same, and even if that evidence was elicited, the

8 witness can only inform the Court as to what transpired when he appeared

9 himself, what he was told, what documents he was given.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to be allowed to

11 pursue this line of questioning because it refers to the procedure he

12 described in answering the Prosecutor's question. I don't want to ask any

13 questions about the previous matter. I just want to know how the criminal

14 proceedings against him were conducted.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.

16 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, again I'd object. These are not the same

17 proceedings. This was a criminal proceedings which was conducted in the

18 former Yugoslavia at some time. We're now talking about a procedure in

19 front of some sort of military court, in a time of conflict, by

20 authorities who the Prosecution case is -- that whole question of what law

21 they were applying, who the authorities were. It was -- you know, this is

22 a Republic of Srpska Bijeljina military court. I mean you cannot -- if

23 the Defence want to put evidence before this Chamber, then they can --

24 about proceedings and that, they can do that through their defence case,

25 if they wish to say that it was lawful or not. And I don't think that

Page 7530

1 comparing criminal proceedings from the former Yugoslavia that this

2 witness may have experienced several, several years ago and the military

3 proceedings to which he was -- appears to have been put through during his

4 time of detention in this time of conflict, where there are so many legal

5 issues outstanding and applicable law, et cetera, are in dispute before

6 this Court serves any evidential evidence and we would object to this line

7 of questioning being pursued as it's not relevant and is not permitted

8 within the Rules on cross-examination.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Prosecutor has asked

11 a number of questions regarding the procedure and presented documents

12 relating to that procedure before the military court in Bijeljina. I

13 don't see any reason why I'm not allowed to ask questions about the

14 proceedings conducted against him. If that is a topic raised by the

15 Prosecution. These are proceedings conducted against -- before a military

16 court. In previous cases, the Trial Chamber was interested in matters of

17 procedure.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: I think it's not a question of saying that you can't

19 cross-examine on the proceedings which the witness faced. I think it's a

20 question of interpretation as to what the relevance may be. But the Trial

21 Chamber will allow you, and follow your questions and see whether or not

22 it's proper cross-examination. So you can go ahead.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you remember what sentence was meted out to you in those

25 proceedings for embezzlement?

Page 7531

1 A. I apologise to the Trial Chamber, but I don't think I will

2 continue to answer this question and similar questions. I will, however,

3 be willing to answer different questions.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, you are going to ask questions dealing

5 with military court and the proceedings in Bijeljina which the Prosecution

6 was dealing with, and not these embezzlement proceedings, which the

7 Prosecution didn't deal with. So I'm surprised at your next question.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wish to explain, Your Honours. In

9 the document introduced by the Prosecution, and that is the record of the

10 hearing of the accused before the investigating judge, it says that the

11 witness we have here has a prior record. That is a piece of information

12 contained in the document introduced by the Prosecution. If the Trial

13 Chamber doesn't wish me to, I will abandon this line of questioning. I'm

14 not insisting on your answer.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I think the line of questioning dealing with the

16 embezzlement proceedings should be abandoned.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I accept the Chamber's decision.

18 Q. When you were at Milos Savic's office, you two were alone in

19 there, weren't you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And as far as I understood, he was typing right there in front of

22 you.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You confirmed yesterday the authenticity of your signature on that

25 statement, on both the first and the second page; isn't that right?

Page 7532

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You said that you had signed the statement without reading it.

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. During that investigating procedure, was there any coercion or

5 beating by Inspector Savic against you?

6 A. There was no coercion, but I was frightened.

7 Q. So he never addressed to you a word of threat?

8 A. No, he didn't.

9 Q. Can we agree that your fear was caused by the very fact that you

10 were before an inspector?

11 A. Yes, and because of all the things I had been through in the

12 previous days.

13 Q. And you also confirmed yesterday that the contents of this

14 statement is accurate, as far as your interview with him is concerned,

15 apart from the claim that you carried a rifle.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did he ask you at all about whether you were armed or not on that

18 day?

19 A. On that day he didn't ask me anything about it. He just asked me

20 where I was and what I did at the relevant time, and I told him all I had

21 to say about it.

22 Q. Yesterday, when you described this statement to Inspector Savic in

23 detail, on page 74, you said that setting off with Kemal Atic and passing

24 by the retirement home, you saw several young people.

25 A. Yes, young people.

Page 7533

1 Q. You mentioned Sladjan Grbic and Ibrahim Doslic; isn't that right?

2 A. Yes. I think Milan [sic] Savic was there as well.

3 Q. Do you remember that Junuz Atic was there as well?

4 A. I couldn't say.

5 Q. But you do know him?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Did you see Sladjan Grbic in Samac after that event?

8 A. I don't understand what you mean by "in Samac." You mean moving

9 around freely?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Bear with me for a moment, Your Honours. I have a problem with

13 the transcript.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The answer was not recorded to my

15 question.

16 Q. Do you remember that on that occasion Junuz Atic was there as

17 well? The question was recorded, but not your answer. I'm asking you

18 again so that we can have your answer on record. Could you please repeat.

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. Did you perhaps see Sladjan Grbic later when you were detained?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you see him later, after you were released and exchanged?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So from the moment of your detention, you never saw him again?

25 A. No.

Page 7534

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like the Trial Chamber's

2 leave to present a document to this witness originating from the archives

3 of the military court in Bijeljina. I provided copies to the interpreters

4 and I would like the witness to read slowly a part of this document. For

5 the time being, we are only dealing with the B/C/S version, and I would

6 like to have it identified, marked for identification, as in previous

7 similar cases.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the document about?

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It is the statement of Sladjan Grbic

10 given at the police station of Bosanski Samac in August 1992. I believe

11 it was given to Inspector Savic again, but I can't claim with any

12 certainty.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Now, Mr. Lukic, this is a statement made by somebody

14 else.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is a statement by Sladjan Grbic,

16 given in the course of proceedings against this defendant, relating to the

17 facts that he knows relative to the 17th of April and the proceedings

18 concerned were against this witness here. Also, for your information, I

19 am advised that this person is now deceased.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: So how is his statement -- the contents of the

21 statement going to be tested?

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this statement was

23 evidenced in the proceedings conducted against our witness, and it had

24 probative value at the time when the proceedings were conducted against

25 him. I don't see why it has to be tested now, when we are concerned with

Page 7535

1 the credibility of this witness.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: No. My question was alluding to the information you

3 gave the Trial Chamber, that the maker of this statement is deceased. I

4 hope I heard you correctly. Is that correct?

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you understood me correctly.

6 That can always be verified, and it is always one of the premises of my

7 defence that we can hear the inspector who took the statement. He can

8 confirm whether such a statement had ever been given or not.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.

10 MS. REIDY: Unless -- no. The Prosecution position is that we

11 object to the use of this document for many of the reasons that Your

12 Honour has already raised in questioning counsel about it. But again,

13 we're in the situation where they're trying to put a statement from a

14 third party to the witness. The counsel has said it was used in

15 proceedings conducted against this witness. We have no evidence to that

16 whatsoever. In fact, the only evidence before this Chamber is that no

17 documents or no evidence or no information of whatsoever kind was shown to

18 this witness during any proceedings. So these are all assertions by

19 counsel. If counsel, as part of their defence case, wish to make this

20 available to the Bench, then they can do that in the defence case. At the

21 moment, this stands here as a statement of a witness who is not only in

22 court but cannot come to court. We have no information about how it was

23 taken, about any truth as to the contents, about when it was used, how it

24 was used. If it's of assistance to the Bench, maybe the witness could say

25 whether or not he's ever seen this document before. But as I said, our

Page 7536

1 position is that we object to it being used at all. And if the Defence

2 want it as part of their Defence case, then let them introduce it during

3 their case.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: You want to respond to that?

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, if you please.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] During previous cross-examination of

9 other witnesses, they were presented with statements, various statements,

10 by third parties, and that was allowed. For instance, in the case of

11 Witness M, it was allowed for a statement by a third party to be presented

12 to him, and also it is not disputed that such statements can be shown to

13 the witness regarding certain facts which may be important for determining

14 credibility. I believe the facts in question are relevant, and the

15 witness could tell us the very circumstances and comment on the very

16 circumstances relative to what he has told us about the 17th of April.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe, because the other problem we have is we

18 haven't got the English translation. I'll allow you to ask the witness

19 whether he has seen this statement at any stage, and let's see how he

20 answers. And thereafter we will be able to decide whether or not we can

21 proceed with the contents of the statement.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have never seen this statement

23 before, before right here in The Hague.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may add one

25 explanation to assist the Trial Chamber in establishing the following

Page 7537

1 fact: Under the law on criminal proceedings that was applied at the time,

2 statements given at the SUP are not presented at criminal proceedings to

3 any single person. On the contrary; the person involved is questioned to

4 the circumstances. If that is of any help to you. So this witness could

5 never have seen this statement. That's perfectly natural.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think so. The point here is that you can't

7 use this statement because it's made by another witness, and the other

8 witness [sic] is that the witness can't be tested on the contents of this

9 statement. So you can't use it with this witness. If you want to use

10 this statement at all, then you had better call somebody who knows

11 something about this statement, somebody like the recorder of the

12 statement perhaps.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Does that mean that another witness

14 could confirm that one person has said something without the possibility

15 of asking this witness if he knows anything about the incident? I

16 understood you as saying that certain witnesses can be presented with such

17 statements, while others can't.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. What I was saying is if you want to use

19 this statement at all, since you are saying that the maker of the

20 statement is dead, I was saying that perhaps you can call the person who

21 recorded it. So you can't use it with this witness. And the other

22 question is: Why is there no translation?

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just explained this

24 before. All the documents introduced by my learned friend from the

25 Prosecution that I provided her with were given to the CLSS on the 29th of

Page 7538

1 March.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Including this one?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Including this one. That is a

4 document that was part of the criminal file in the military court in

5 Bijeljina against this witness here, and that's how I got this entire

6 file, this entire documentation that I presented to the Prosecution. I

7 was promised to get the translation of all these documents by the end of

8 this week.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Anyway, we'll proceed, since you can't

10 use it anyway.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just wish to point out, because my

12 colleagues warned me, I want to add that this statement was an official

13 document, part of a court file in Bijeljina, and I got it as such. So it

14 is a document of a certain body, a certain authority, institution. It is

15 a document.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you've explained that, but you would have to

17 call evidence to that effect, because you are only counsel.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I accept this, of course, Your Honour.

19 Q. All right. I have a few more questions to ask you.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can this statement be marked for

21 identification or not at all?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Not at all.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. Do you know of a weapon, an automatic weapon, called Zagi?

25 A. No.

Page 7539

1 Q. Did Kemal Atic have an automatic weapon of any kind on him on that

2 occasion?

3 A. He did have some kind of weapon, but I don't remember the type or

4 the make.

5 Q. Did he have several weapons?

6 A. I can't remember. He had a large, loose jacket, which made him

7 look big, and I don't know what he carried.

8 Q. I would now like to ask you some questions about the proceedings

9 before the court in Bijeljina. You said that you had only received a

10 verbal invitation from the competent persons in the prison that you should

11 go to the court in Bijeljina; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Are you aware that under the regulations applicable at the time,

14 no enactment or indictments are receivable by the person who is to appear

15 before an investigating judge?

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.

18 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, could I just have that struck again.

19 We've had this ongoing debate about what was or was not applicable at the

20 time. That's in dispute before this Chamber. And also, I don't believe

21 counsel has established that this witness who was a baker and owned

22 restaurants and was based in the food service industry would have any

23 insight, knowledge, into the law contained in military procedure. I think

24 the question is inappropriate and it's simply again an attempt to put into

25 evidence by Defence counsel something that is not yet in evidence.

Page 7540

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. The objection is sustained.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness already gave me the

3 answer, but I would like to remind the Prosecutor that the witness

4 earlier, when asked by the Prosecutor, when he was shown a document, the

5 document P55, that when he said that he thought that that document was not

6 legally binding -- was not fair.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] However, I will not be asking any more

9 questions about this.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: You see, Mr. Lukic, the witness may go on speaking

11 and make his own conclusion. That does not mean that the Trial Chamber

12 has accepted the conclusion of the witness. I remember that when he said

13 it was not clear, I remember that, but that does not mean his conclusions

14 are accepted by the Trial Chamber.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I had no doubts, but I would still

16 like him to explain his legal views.

17 Q. My question is as follows: You are a baker; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You're not a lawyer?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How did you know that for that criminal offence the penalty was

22 the death penalty?

23 A. Yes, because in the camp we had competent people who knew about

24 these things. They had -- some of them had completed law school, so they

25 knew.

Page 7541

1 Q. So when you were with the judges, you were told what you were

2 being prosecuted for or charged with?

3 A. I read the decision that I got, and I asked people what that was,

4 and I asked to have it explained to me later.

5 Q. What kind of a decision was this?

6 A. The decision that I was guilty. And what happened later, there

7 was no explanation. And I don't know, but I think that the Court still

8 has this decision.

9 Q. While you were answering the question of the

10 Prosecutor, you said that you did not receive any decision by the Court.

11 Yes or no.

12 A. I might have forgotten.

13 Q. So that means that in prison you received the decision of the

14 Court, in which you were explained that you were being charged with a

15 certain criminal offence? Yes or no.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then you found out that the penalty for that crime was the

18 death penalty?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On page 84 of yesterday's transcript, you said that in this room

21 where the judge was, except for the two people that brought you in, there

22 were two more people. Is that correct? Did I understand you correctly?

23 A. I don't understand. In the area of the court, or where?

24 Q. In the courtroom, in the room where the judge was, how many people

25 were there?

Page 7542

1 A. With me there were seven people.

2 Q. Could you please remember who was there? I will say what I

3 understood -- or actually, maybe you could just explain it once again.

4 A. In front of me there were two persons. On the left and the

5 right-hand side, there was one person -- there was one person each, and

6 then there was also one person on my left and on my right.

7 Q. But this was not a trial with a jury?

8 A. No.

9 Q. No evidence was led; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was there a note taker present?

12 A. I didn't see any note taker.

13 Q. I would like to present to the witness once again P55 ter.

14 I would like you to turn to page 2. In the middle there it says,

15 under number 14, if you could please read out what it says there.

16 A. "Convicted."

17 Q. Above that there's a question. It says there something by 14?

18 A. "Has he ever been where and why convicted?"

19 Q. Did the judge ask you at this moment whether you have ever been

20 convicted before?

21 A. He has not asked me.

22 Q. Did you -- have you -- were you asked whether you were a baker?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Could you please read on the same page, under 10, what it says

25 there?

Page 7543

1 THE INTERPRETER: Under 8. Interpreter correction. Under 8.

2 A. Occupation, baker.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Could you please look more closer at this document. Could you

5 please tell us whether this is your signature. I think yesterday you said

6 that it was.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Also you said this morning to the Prosecutor that you might have

9 signed something but you were unsure because you were scared.

10 A. I think that's correct.

11 Q. Do you remember where you were signing these? In the courtroom or

12 in the hall?

13 A. Since I'm not certain, I can't remember.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

15 MS. REIDY: And again, Your Honour, I just wanted to have the

16 counsel correct his question. His question is: "Do you remember signing

17 these?" The witness has not said that he signed these. He said it was

18 his signature. He remembers signing something. Whether or not it is

19 these he remembers signing is the whole -- you know, it's up for debate.

20 It's not -- he doesn't have that clear a memory. So where he remembers

21 signing something is another question, but I think the witness has said he

22 really can't remember.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. You understood what Ms. Reidy has

24 pointed out?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have the

Page 7544

1 transcript in front of me of today's statements and questions, but that's

2 why I wanted to clear this up. Since he said that he was also standing in

3 the hall, I asked him whether he might have remembered that he signed it

4 there, and he said, well, he doesn't, and therefore I don't think there

5 was anything wrong with my question.

6 Q. Could you please read on page 3, which is actually marked page 2,

7 but in reality it's actually page 3 -- you read to the Prosecutor this

8 part here that's highlighted. Could you please read what it says two

9 lines above this area that you have read out, just what it says in capital

10 letters and above. That's what I'm interested in, because this is not

11 something that you read out.

12 A. Do you mean this thing here that says Atic Kemal? I don't

13 understand.

14 Q. You read these parts that were highlighted, but the parts above

15 it, what does it say, and also the part above?

16 A. Oh, I see. You mean the decision?

17 Q. Correct. And then what does it say above that?

18 A. You mean above it? Would you like me to read the whole

19 paragraph? Where should I start from? I don't understand you.

20 Q. I'm interested in the line above the word "decision."

21 JUDGE MUMBA: You can show it to the witness and show him the

22 line, so that we can move on.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: And then the witness will have to wait until you get

25 your microphone on. So the witness should wait -- yes. The witness can

Page 7545

1 go ahead and read.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The investigating judge brings --"

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. And then it says there in capital letters?

5 A. "Decision."

6 Q. And the line above that one, the last sentence, the last sentence

7 in that paragraph, if you could please read that one out, slowly.

8 A. Did you say above?

9 Q. It says -- it starts with, "After the war events in Bosanski

10 Samac..." That is the very last sentence of the whole big paragraph:

11 "After the war events in Bosanski Samac ..."

12 A. "After the war events in Bosanski Samac, and especially the work

13 obligation, I worked in the village Zaselica and Pisari. I do not know

14 this village."

15 Q. You still claim that you have not said a single word to the

16 investigating judge?

17 A. Yes, because Zaselica does not exist in the municipality of

18 Bosanski Samac.

19 Q. And in Pisari you were digging trenches?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That you confirmed?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. This fact about Pisari and digging trenches, you didn't mention

24 this to Savic in your statement?

25 A. Well, he didn't ask me about that. He asked me about that

Page 7546

1 particular day: Where I was going and where I was moving on the day of

2 April 17th of 1992. He wasn't interested in the rest.

3 Q. So the investigating judge put something into the record that you

4 did not say to him?

5 A. I don't think it's true that I said this, because he didn't ask me

6 about the days that I was going to work under the work obligation. I

7 don't think that was necessary.

8 Q. But he still guessed that you were working as part of the work

9 obligation in Pisari?

10 A. Of course he knew, because he was the one that organised it.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, you can't put that to the witness,

12 whether or not the investigating judge guessed.

13 MS. REIDY: There are a million different ways he could have known

14 that, particularly because he was part of the same authorities that forced

15 this witness to dig trenches.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The investigating judge -- I

17 understand, Your Honour.

18 Q. The investigating judge entered into the record the fact that you

19 were working in Pisari, but you didn't mention this fact to Milos Savic?

20 A. I see that now, but I have no idea what he was entering. He did

21 not ask me that.

22 Q. While you were at Milos Savic's and at the investigating judge,

23 you signed more than once a record; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And it cannot be -- there is no doubt that it is your signature,

Page 7547

1 the signature that is on the statement of the investigating judge?

2 A. I think I already said once that we were not allowed to read what

3 was said on the document. We were only allowed to sign the document.

4 Q. I would like to ask you just to read one part of that statement,

5 on page 2, second paragraph -- actually, last paragraph, on the very

6 bottom of the page.

7 A. "The defendant has been advised -- the defendant has been informed

8 that he was appointed counsel ex officio, Krunic Ziko, attorney from

9 Bijeljina. The request to undertake the investigation has been read of

10 the military court in Bijeljina, IVTK, number 22/92, 2 -- January 1st

11 1993."

12 Q. I would like to ask you to read the next paragraph, please, now.

13 A. "The accused has been informed that he does not have to defend

14 himself, although in doing so, he can jeopardise his criminal and legal

15 position, after which the accused stated that he wants to give his

16 statement based on the request to undertake the investigation."

17 Q. Thank you. And underneath this text is your signature?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did somebody force you to sign this?

20 A. In my opinion and knowledge, yes, because I underwent so many

21 beatings; therefore, I didn't dare to say a single word.

22 Q. I didn't ask you about your feelings; I asked you whether somebody

23 forced you there on the spot to sign this statement?

24 A. I wasn't talking about my feelings; I was talking about the

25 beatings that I underwent and about my fear, and I signed everything

Page 7548

1 because I was afraid.

2 Q. You again did not answer my question. Did somebody force you

3 there, on that spot?

4 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I think this is now badgering the

5 witness. The witness has made clear that he felt afraid whenever he

6 signed documents. We still have not established whether this witness

7 specifically remembers signing this page. He acknowledges the signature,

8 that at some stage being required to sign some documents. He testified

9 today, and this particular page that the counsel is now examining on, was

10 one of the pages that, not through fault of Defence counsel but through

11 clerical error was not disclosed to us. The witness saw it, read it for

12 the first time after he had taken his oath when he was sitting here, and

13 it has never established that he actually remembers, recalling signing

14 this document, and now he's saying that when he signed things he felt

15 afraid. So now -- this is now badgering the witness because he's being

16 asked when he signed this particular document, again a fact in dispute

17 whether or not someone forced him. So he cannot ask him if someone forced

18 him to sign it when he doesn't specifically acknowledge signing this

19 particular document or even recalls he may have signed any number of

20 documents put to him during his time in detention.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness has explained as to what had

22 happened to him and his state of mind at the time. Counsel is asking

23 whether if at all he did sign, at the time he was signing, was there

24 somebody standing right there and telling him or ordering him to sign? I

25 think that's the question of counsel.

Page 7549

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that was my question.

2 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour, and our objection is still that

3 counsel has not established that the witness recalls specifically signing

4 this particular page. He acknowledges his signature, but he has not

5 recalled signing this specific page.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is noted, Ms. Reidy.

7 Yes. Perhaps the witness can answer.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I would like to ask you just to say whether somebody forced you or

10 coerced you in any way when you were -- if you were signing this.

11 A. No.

12 Q. You gave a statement to the Prosecution on the 23rd of April,

13 1998; is that correct?

14 A. I don't understand. What year?

15 Q. April 23rd, 1998, you gave a statement to the Prosecution of the

16 Tribunal?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Have you maybe read this statement now that you were in The Hague,

19 before you testified here?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you stand by this statement?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, can I make it clear, because Mr. Lukic

24 appears not to be putting it on the record. This is not a signed

25 statement of the witness. It is a statement which was a short three-page

Page 7550

1 statement which was taken indeed from the witness. It specifically says

2 in bold at the end of it, "This statement was not read to the witness and,

3 therefore, the witness has not had opportunity to verify or acknowledge

4 the accuracy and truth of the statement." And the witness's signature

5 appears nowhere on the statement. So if he wants to ask him whether he

6 adopts specific things he says in it now, then the witness should at least

7 be given the opportunity to read and address specific questions from

8 counsel.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Is counsel -- okay. Let me wait for the

10 interpretation to be completed.

11 Mr. Lukic, does that statement you're holding have the contents

12 spelled out by Ms. Reidy, saying that the statement was not read to the

13 witness?

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, this statement does say that

15 the -- that it was not reread to the witness, and therefore my question --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Your question was misleading to the witness,

17 when you say: "Do you stand by this statement?" He could have said yes,

18 not understanding the implication what he's answering to. So your

19 question was misleading.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right. I do not want to create

21 any kind of a trap.

22 Q. I asked you whether you read the statement which you have not

23 signed and whether you read it in The Hague.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you have enough time to read it?

Page 7551

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you stand by everything that is stated in this document?

3 A. Yes. My statement -- I stand behind my statement of 1998.

4 Q. Did you say at that time to the Prosecutor, and relevant to your

5 interrogation in Bijeljina, the following question. I will read you - the

6 following statement. I will read you what is stated in this document:

7 "When the judge made his decision, he asked me to sign it. I

8 refused to sign it, and the judge ordered police to take me to the

9 correctional centre."

10 Is that something you said in 1998?

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. And now you said, in front of the Chamber, that, out of fear, you

13 signed the statement.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Please explain. Which is true?

16 A. I don't know what you're looking for. I signed the statement out

17 of fear, which you know, and you know even today that I have this fear.

18 And it is true whether he gave me the statement on the very same day and

19 whether I was taken to the correctional -- or when they first brought me

20 to the correctional centre, I don't remember that.

21 Q. But you said that you signed it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That's important to clarify.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe it's time to make a break now,

25 Your Honours.

Page 7552












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7553

1 JUDGE MUMBA: There's two more minutes.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to move on to another topic.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We can have our break and resume at

4 1805.

5 --- Recess taken at 5.43 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. You continue with

8 cross-examination.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I will read out to you one more sentence from your statement to

11 the OTP from year 1998, when you said the following, and it has to do with

12 the same trial at the military court in Bijeljina:

13 "After a while I was taken to the courthouse in Bijeljina. I was

14 given a Serb defence counsel. I was not allowed to talk during the

15 trial."

16 During saying that to the Prosecutor?

17 A. I believe so, yes. I'm not sure.

18 Q. When you were giving your statement to the OTP in 1998, you knew

19 for a fact that a defence counsel had been assigned to you at the military

20 court in Bijeljina?

21 A. That is something I heard from that policeman, but I was not shown

22 around or told what was what and who was who.

23 Q. But yesterday, in response to a question from the Prosecutor, you

24 didn't say that you knew you had a defence counsel, a court-appointed

25 lawyer.

Page 7554

1 A. It was a long time ago. I can't remember everything.

2 Q. So you were informed by the policeman there in the courtroom that

3 a defence counsel had been assigned to you, but you were not introduced to

4 him; is that correct? Did I understand you correctly?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I would now like to introduce, only for identification again, one

7 of those documents that I received from the file in the military court in

8 Bijeljina, and again regrettably I only have the B/C/S version. I would

9 like the witness to read out only one sentence. The document has been

10 distributed to the OTP, and the interpreters.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ...

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document is entitled "Decision on

13 the appointment of defence counsel."

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number for identification

15 only.

16 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D39/3 ter ID, Your Honours.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, I should like to ask you to read out the

19 highlighted portion. There is a date at the top. You can read the title

20 of the document and the highlighted section.

21 A. "Decision on the appointment of defence counsel. The accused,

22 Kemal Mehinovic, is assigned Ziko Krunic from Bijeljina as defence

23 counsel. The accused, Kemal Mehinovic --"

24 Q. Could you please read the date at the top?

25 A. The 9th of January, 1993.

Page 7555

1 Q. Can you confirm that above the words "accused Kemal Mehinovic"

2 there is wording that reads: "The following is notified to." Column.

3 A. Yes. And I am among those who are notified.

4 Q. Yes, but you have never seen this document before?

5 A. No.

6 Q. I should now like to have shown to this witness document P56 ter

7 ID, which we have already used today.

8 You have analysed this document with the Prosecutor earlier today,

9 haven't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The Prosecutor asked you to read the date at the top, and you said

12 27th March; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know that the military court in Bijeljina was located in

15 the 27th March Street?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know that there is such a street named 27th March in

18 Bijeljina?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know that the 27th March is an important date in the

21 history of the former Yugoslavia?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Below that date which you read out as the 27th of March, there are

24 other numbers. Could you please read them, two lines.

25 A. I can only read the number, number 1993.

Page 7556

1 Q. And below that?

2 A. I don't know whether it's a 19 or a 9, January, 1993.

3 Q. That was the date when you were before the investigating judge, as

4 we ascertained.

5 A. I think so. I don't know.

6 Q. Please look again at this signature, which is poorly legible. Do

7 you assert that this is not your signature?

8 A. Kemal -- this is not my signature. I sign differently.

9 Q. What about Mehinovic?

10 A. The Mehinovic part looks right, looks like mine, but the word,

11 "Kemal" is almost printed, and I write differently.

12 Q. So you claim that you never signed this document?

13 A. I didn't.

14 Q. Thank you. I'm now going to move on to a different topic. On

15 page 86 of yesterday's transcript, you stated, and you confirmed to me,

16 that in January 1993 you were taken to the military court in Bijeljina.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And a month after that you were taken to the correctional

19 centre -- for a month after that.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You were taken there directly from the courthouse?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you spent there about a month?

Page 7557

1 A. Perhaps more.

2 Q. And you said that after that you were returned to Batkovici?

3 A. Yes, that's what I said.

4 Q. When did that happen, roughly? Was it the middle of February?

5 A. Possibly.

6 Q. You also said today that after returning to Batkovici, you saw

7 Tadic.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then you described that incident with Sabah Seric?

10 A. His name was Sabah.

11 Q. But you claim that it was after your arrival from the correctional

12 centre?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You also said you sighted him in July as well, in Batkovici.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You never saw him after that, did you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You are claiming before this Court that for the first time you saw

19 Tadic was in December -- was in --

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the month.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. After your appearance before the Court?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And --

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Lukic, the interpreter didn't get the year

Page 7558

1 [sic], line 12, page 77, line 12. The first time you saw Tadic was in

2 December -- maybe you can fill in the year.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So I'm interested in knowing when you saw Tadic in Batkovici after

5 you came back from the court and after the correctional centre?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You spent about a month in the correctional centre after you were

8 brought back from the Court?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you also said that you saw Tadic sometime in July of that

11 year.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So all of this is happening in year 1993; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And it was then that you saw Sabah Seric giving Tadic this 100

16 Deutschmark and promising him more money?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That was after you gave your statement to the Court?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You're sure?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show this witness

23 document D25/3. I would like him to be shown the B/C/S version, D25/3

24 ter.

25 Q. Please look at the document first, and then we can put it on the

Page 7559

1 ELMO so that it is visible to others in the courtroom. Will you please

2 read the person under number 24.

3 A. Seric, son of Hasan, Sarhat [phoen], born 1950. That's not the

4 same person. Sabah Seric is the son of Hasan, but he was born in Bosanski

5 Samac in 1955.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. Could you tell us what

7 this document is? Because we're -- we have so many documents. We're a

8 little bit in the dark here knowing what list this is until we see it on

9 the ELMO.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I did indeed want to put it on the

11 ELMO, but I wanted the witness to see it first. It is the list of people

12 scheduled to be exchanged in Dragalic on the 15th of June, 1993, through

13 the Exchange Commission.

14 Q. So you are claiming it's not the same man?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you know Saban Seric, who was born in 1950?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. But this Sabah Seric also has the father by the name of Hasan?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you claim that he left Batkovici after your return to

21 Batkovici?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ...I don't think

24 you are discussing --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone. Microphone, please.

Page 7560

1 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. The document is D25/3.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Is it the one dated --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Mumba.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, is it the one dated the 24th of December, 1992?

5 MR. LUKIC: That's right, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

7 MR. LUKIC: 24th of December, 1992.

8 Q. [Interpretation] You claim that Saban Seric, son of Hasan, who

9 gave money to Tadic, was exchanged later?

10 A. I'm sorry, but I don't know any Saban Seric, son of Hasan.

11 Q. How about Sabah Seric, son of Hasan, whom you claim gave money to

12 Tadic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You said he was exchanged after you returned to Batkovici.

15 A. He was taken away from Batkovici.

16 Q. So it's impossible that he was exchanged in December 1993 [sic].

17 Is it a frequent name, Sabah Seric?

18 A. There are perhaps three of them in Samac, but they don't have the

19 same surname.

20 Q. Were you in Batkovici in December 1992?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. But you said a moment ago that Tadic was not visiting at the time.

23 A. I don't know. I was out working at the time.

24 Q. So you saw him only when you were there on the spot?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7561

1 Q. You also mentioned today his second coming to Batkovici. You said

2 that he was standing together with the warden when a certain Dragan,

3 little dragon, a soldier, assigned you into groups, Muslims on one side,

4 Croats on another side, and people from Samac in the middle.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This Dragan, little dragon, was he working in Batkovici as a guard

7 or something?

8 A. He was one of the guards.

9 Q. Did guards wear uniforms?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was the warden wearing a uniform?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know that in Batkovici the approval of the competent

14 military authorities was required for someone to be exchanged?

15 A. No.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have another document that I would

17 like to have marked for identification, from the same file of the criminal

18 case, and I need to deal with only two or three sentences from this

19 document with the witness. This is a communication from the collection

20 centre in Batkovici, addressed to the military court in Bijeljina.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number for identification, please.

22 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D40/3 ter ID, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, I don't suppose you saw this document before.

Page 7562

1 A. No, I didn't.

2 Q. Will you please read out slowly the portions highlighted in

3 yellow, starting from the top.

4 A. "Collection centre, Batkovici, 18th February 1993. Military

5 secret. Confidential. List of persons who are defendants in criminal

6 proceedings. Hereby provided to the military court in Bijeljina. In

7 response to your request, we are sending the list of persons who are

8 defendants in criminal proceedings. Persons currently located at the

9 collection centre: 1 -- number 9, Sead Mehinovic, son of Muradif, born

10 1956, Bosanski Samac."

11 I don't know who this person is.

12 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, was your father's name Muradif?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And were you born in 1956 in Bosanski Samac?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So all of your personal details as indicated here are correct

17 except for the name?

18 A. The name is not correct or the date. There is no date of birth,

19 actually, just the year.

20 Q. I would now like you to look through the entire list. Is the date

21 of birth indicated for anyone at all?

22 A. I'm only interested in myself.

23 Q. I asked you: Do you see the date of birth indicated for any other

24 person? Answer me with a yes or no.

25 A. No.

Page 7563

1 Q. In February of 1993, you were in Batkovici; correct?

2 A. Yes. I don't think I was there. I was in the correctional centre

3 in February. Maybe half of the month, early February or mid-February. I

4 was returned on the 2nd -- I was returned in February, but I don't know on

5 which date.

6 Q. So in the second part of February you were returned?

7 A. I was thinking of the second part of February, but I do not

8 remember when exactly.

9 Q. And you are not aware that the military authorities had to give

10 their approval?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Could you please tell me whether you know the name of the warden

13 of the correctional centre that you -- into whose office you went when

14 Tadic was there?

15 A. While I was there, three persons occupied that position. I think

16 at that point -- I'm not quite sure. I think it was Djoko Pajic, Major

17 Djoko Pajic.

18 Q. While you were detained, both the TO and later in Batkovici, did

19 you manage to have any kind of a communication going with your wife?

20 A. No.

21 Q. While you were at the TO building, did you have any communication?

22 A. No.

23 Q. But after you were released from prison, she told you that she

24 went -- she was exchanged in March of 1993?

25 A. Yes. We communicated in Batkovici through the International Red

Page 7564

1 Cross. I was informed about my wife's exchange after they couldn't find

2 her in Bosanski Samac.

3 Q. But you told the Prosecutor - that's why I'm interested in this.

4 When did she tell you this. She said she didn't want to be exchanged. She

5 told you this when you were released, after you were released?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Then she told you that she and the children were released in the

8 summer of 1993?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did she tell you at that time that earlier she had registered to

11 be exchanged?

12 A. I do not know. She didn't tell me that then.

13 Q. Did she not mention this to you at all, that she registered with

14 the International Red Cross for voluntary exchange?

15 A. No.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.

17 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, again I think the witness said that the

18 wife said nothing of that kind to him. Counsel has said it again. If he

19 has evidence that she registered with the International Red Cross for the

20 exchange, then let him put that. He certainly has disclosed no evidence

21 to the Prosecution of that effect and I let it go once when he asked him,

22 but he asked him again and the witness simply said no, the wife never said

23 to him that she registered. So again, I object to him constantly asking

24 the question when he's again putting evidence on the record which is not

25 before this Tribunal.

Page 7565

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, he can cross-examine along the lines that

2 he did, because one assumes that when the Defence case opens, he will

3 support that challenge, the Defence will support that challenge to the

4 Prosecution witness.

5 Mr. Lukic, you can proceed.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's exactly the point, because I

7 intend in my proceedings to show what the procedure was to register for

8 exchange with the IRC.

9 I have two further questions. I would like the witness to be

10 shown the document introduced by the Prosecutor. I need to find the

11 number. It's a list of exchanges when his wife and children were

12 exchanged. If the Prosecutor could help me with this, I'd be very

13 grateful. I just need the number of that document.

14 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'm following the same transcript as

15 Defence counsel. I believe it was --

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Here it is. I have it. It's P58 ter.

17 Q. I only have one question, Mr. Mehinovic. Could you please read

18 out what is said under 102.

19 A. Srna Hanka. I can read here. It says she returned, and it says

20 1935. It might be her date of birth -- her year of birth, but I'm not

21 quite sure what's said in the rest of it.

22 Q. Frankly, I can't read it either. Did you know this person?

23 A. Srna Hanka. I'm not sure. I think this was the mother of Mirsad

24 Srna, who was with me. He was detained with me [sic].

25 Q. Are you familiar from what your wife told you, or personally, that

Page 7566

1 certain people refused to be exchanged and they returned home?

2 A. I don't think we discussed this. I was not in any mood to have

3 this conversation.

4 Q. When I asked you before whether you remember anything that has to

5 do with this exchange, when Tadic came to TO - this means we're going back

6 to the first period - do you remember the name of any of the people that

7 were exchanged at that time when Tadic came, somebody who was with you at

8 the TO? If you could think about it a little bit, because it would assist

9 us.

10 A. I'm not sure. I think it might have been Muhamed Bicic and Zlatko

11 Radic. There were more Croats. I'm not quite sure what happened that

12 day, but I think those two people were there.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

14 further questions.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: The next counsel to cross-examine?

16 Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. On behalf of

18 Mr. Zaric's Defence I will conduct the cross-examination of this witness.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mehinovic, good afternoon.

21 A. Good afternoon.

22 Q. My name is Aleksandar Lazarevic. I am Defence counsel of Mr. Simo

23 Zaric. I'm going to lead this cross-examination.

24 Before I begin with my questions, I would like to express my

25 client's regret because of what you suffered in Bosnia. He asked me to

Page 7567

1 express this to you.

2 A. I do not accept that.

3 Q. Before I begin with my questions, I would like you to have in mind

4 what my colleague Mr. Lukic already reminded you of. If we could be very

5 short in the answers, if you could answer with "yes" or "no" or "I do not

6 know." If a certain question is not clear, could you please let me know

7 that you do not understand the question so that I could make it clearer.

8 In that way, we could shorten this procedure and save some time to the

9 Court.

10 Mr. Mehinovic, during the Prosecutor's examination, you were asked

11 and you were also looking at a document - you were asked to identify

12 certain persons of Muslim ethnicity that were members of the 4th

13 Detachment. You did that quite quickly and well, and I would think that

14 you are a good witness, with whom we could clear up some issues with the

15 4th Detachment.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, do you know when the 4th Detachment was founded?

18 A. I do not.

19 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, you have never seen a list of the members of the

20 4th Detachment written on a paper, a piece of paper?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I apologise, because this question was -- started with a negation,

23 which means that your "yes" means that you did not see the list?

24 A. Yes. I did not see any lists of the 4th Detachment, but it

25 doesn't mean that the people that I listed today are the exclusive members

Page 7568

1 of the 4th Detachment.

2 Q. That's not what I'm suggesting at all. You also did not see a

3 list of the command of the 4th Detachment, in other words, those people

4 that were commanding that detachment?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Also you have never seen the 4th Detachment in a line, in other

7 words, you never saw the members of the 4th Detachment at the same place,

8 at the same time?

9 A. No.

10 Q. The 4th Detachment was a member of the Yugoslav national army; is

11 that correct?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, have you ever heard of the 17th Tactical Group of

14 the JNA?

15 A. No.

16 Q. While you were giving your statement and while you were being

17 interrogated by the Prosecutor, you mentioned Mr. Lieutenant Colonel

18 Nikolic; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know that this Nikolic that you mentioned was the commander

21 of the 17th Tactical Group?

22 A. I do not know that.

23 Q. You also said before this Chamber that there were certain issues

24 about -- that you talked to your friend Danilo about joining the 4th

25 Detachment; is that correct?

Page 7569

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In order to identify this person, is this Vitomir Danilo? Is that

3 his full name?

4 A. I don't know his last name, but he always used to say my Gavro,

5 Gavro was his father. If this person's father is also named Gavro, that

6 would be the same person.

7 Q. Let's clear this up again. Is this person Danilo, is that the

8 same person that was wounded by Adis Izetbegovic before all these events

9 and also Srna Safet? Is this the same person?

10 A. Yes, that's the same person, but I do not know who he was wounded

11 by.

12 Q. But in any case, you know he was wounded?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. With some other people?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You said during the Prosecutor's examination that even before the

17 outbreak of hostilities in Samac, members of the 4th Detachment were

18 wearing civilian clothes and that they carried weapons underneath their

19 clothes.

20 A. Yes, that's what I said.

21 Q. So you never saw them in uniforms around Samac?

22 A. No. There were no uniforms at that point.

23 Q. And this carrying of weapons underneath clothes, how could you be

24 sure that it was weapons?

25 A. Because some of them -- with some of them you could see parts of

Page 7570

1 the weapons while they were moving.

2 Q. Could you be a little bit more precise with regard to this? Could

3 you tell me exactly the name or the last name of that person or those

4 persons which sometimes would reveal as having weapons underneath their

5 clothes?

6 A. Well, this Danilo, and then also there was Atic Muhamed, with the

7 nickname Hamko, a very good friend of his.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I think we have dealt enough with

9 the 4th Detachment. Now I would like to move on to another topic.

10 [In English] Your Honours, at this moment I believe that I'm going

11 to ask for a closed session, because I will mention certain name of a

12 witness that was protected, and I cannot assert to this witness, Witness

13 A, B, C, D, or something, because I do need to use his name. It will take

14 maybe two minutes, not more, but I believe it is a good moment, because

15 after that I won't need the closed session any further until the end of my

16 cross-examination.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll go into I think private session.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 7571

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, let's move on to this day now, the 17th of April of

18 1992. You have already given your statement that has to do with these

19 events. The statement was very detailed. I would now be interested only

20 in certain details that I think we could clear up a bit further. You said

21 that early in the morning, around 6.00, you started going towards your

22 bakery.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And that you came to the bakery and that you met your brother, who

25 told you to go home. I am interested to know about this. It's early in

Page 7572

1 the morning, at 6.00, you're going towards the bakery. Did you see any

2 fighting in the city?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you see any soldiers at that point, from 6.00 onward, until

5 you came back?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you maybe see any military vehicles, transporters, any kind of

8 military equipment moving about the town?

9 A. From the direction of my house towards the bakery, no, I did not

10 see any.

11 Q. So after this, you come back home, and you said that around 8.00,

12 8.30 you met a group of people, including brothers Bicic, Hasan and

13 Muhamed, Ibrahim Salkic, and some other young men, all together maybe

14 around 20 people?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, in order to go faster, I would like to give you

17 some names, and you will tell me whether these names belong to the people

18 that were there along with brothers, Salkic and others, if you remember.

19 I will be reading you names, one after another, and you will be saying

20 "yes" if they were members of that group; if they were not, you would say

21 "no," and that's how we will proceed.

22 A. Is there also an option of me saying, "I don't know"?

23 Q. Absolutely. First one: Dzakic Damir.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Ferhat Sahacic.

Page 7573

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Muharem Drljacic.

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Mirsad Srna.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Salko Srna.

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Muharem Jasarevic.

9 A. No.

10 Q. Suad Hodzic.

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Fadil Sabanovic.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Esad Dagovic.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Safet Dagovic.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Osman Mesic, nicknamed Semso.

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. Atic Ratif, called Raif.

21 A. Not in that group.

22 Q. And you already said that Atic Kemal, called Kilo, was already

23 there, so that's already been covered.

24 A. Let me please say something. If that is -- if this is true, it is

25 known. I did mention in my statement Ibela's group was going from the

Page 7574

1 pensioners' retirement home when we were going from the school towards the

2 department store. Then certain other people joined us, like Dedo, Atic,

3 and also a young man called Safet Srna. There's a difference here.

4 Q. Thank you very much for this explanation. So this group, without

5 these people that you mentioned just now -- I just wanted to ask you,

6 because you were mentioning the school: There is a primary school and a

7 secondary school in Samac. Did you go up to the primary or the secondary

8 school?

9 A. The street is right next to the school yard, at the very end of

10 Vuk Karadzic Street. That's the primary school.

11 Q. So when you were coming back from the school, from the direction

12 of the school, you were joined by a certain other number of citizens?

13 A. That is not correct.

14 Q. I think we're speaking the same language. Please explain.

15 A. I have said enough. I saw 20 young men who were going from the

16 direction of the retirement home to the school, and I joined them when I

17 left my home, but I never said that other people joined.

18 Q. I said when they were coming back from there. You just told me

19 about Atic and Dedo.

20 A. Yes. This was in the city centre. This has nothing to do with

21 the school or up to the school.

22 Q. I apologise. I did not want to suggest anything about the answer,

23 and I assume that now we have reached an understanding about what

24 happened.

25 So now we're talking about this first group that is going towards

Page 7575












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7576

1 the school. You had already mentioned that they were armed.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. They told you that they were going to Donja Mahala to defend their

4 people from the massacre. I think that's the expression you used.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you went with them?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. While you were going towards the school, did you maybe see any

9 military in that part of the town?

10 A. No.

11 Q. From your answers, I would say that my next question is maybe

12 superfluous, but I will ask it anyway. Was anybody shooting at you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Neither was the group that you were in shooting at anybody else?

15 A. No.

16 Q. While you were going there, and during your return, did you maybe

17 see Izet Izetbegovic?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Maybe my question was a little bit early. I should have asked you

20 first: Do you know Izet Izetbegovic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So you joined the group that told you that they were going to

23 Donja Mahala to defend their people -- their nation, their people, against

24 murder?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7577

1 Q. But you were not armed?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, according to your statement and what you heard from

4 them, you were going to a location at which a massacre was taking place?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you were not taking any weapons with you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you think that you would protect the people with your bare

9 hands?

10 A. I didn't think anything.

11 Q. I will ask only one more question, because we are at the end of

12 today's session. You said that Ibrahim Salkic, Ibela, was in front of

13 this Carrington building, which belonged to a certain person called Biber,

14 and that he had a walkie-talkie and that he went into the

15 house and that he told you later that he talked to Lieutenant Nikolic.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was this discussion, this talk that Salkic had with Nikolic,

18 influential in any way so that the tension in this group was a little bit

19 alleviated and people went home?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's 7.00.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll adjourn our proceedings until tomorrow

23 at 1415 hours.

24 MS. REIDY: Your Honour?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

Page 7578

1 MS. REIDY: Could I elicit from Defence counsel if they have any

2 idea how long they think the cross might take, just so I can advise

3 Victim/Witness but also as to when the next witness will be available.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Lazarevic, How much more do you think it

5 will take?

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I hope that it won't take more than

7 one hour, maybe one hour and a half, but I don't believe that it will take

8 more.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Zecevic?

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, half an hour, 40 minutes, maximum.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?

12 MR. PANTELIC: I think less than half an hour, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you.

14 Ms. Reidy, I think you can work that one out.

15 The Court will rise.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of May,

18 2002, at 2.15 p.m.