1 Monday, 13 May 2002
2 [Closed session]
12 Pages 7802-7832 – redacted – closed session
19 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: We are now in open session.
22 [Open session]
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Dagovic, you are here for further
25 cross-examination on the events limited to the two days as the Trial
1 Chamber directed to the Defence counsel. I think you will take a solemn
2 declaration again, since we had completed with you the last time.
3 WITNESS: ESAD DAGOVIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You may sit down.
8 Who will start? Ms. Reidy wanted to say something?
9 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. I think it's perhaps appropriate if
10 we raise this now rather than when the Defence are finished their cross.
11 On the 18th of February, when this witness was on the stand, a matter
12 arose as to his whereabouts in 1993 and what he was doing, and the witness
13 had testified that he had been working as a waiter during that time and
14 that he had various amounts of documentation in his possession that he
15 could produce to support his testimony to the Chamber. At that stage my
16 colleague, Mr. Weiner, was conducting both the examination-in-chief and
17 the re-exam, and at the end of his re-exam, he indicated that although he
18 was finished he would like the opportunity to have the witness produce
19 those documents and just to have him explain those documents to the
20 Chamber, and that permission was granted. When the witness arrived this
21 morning, I did meet with him and take copies of the documents he spoke
22 about on the 18th of February. I have, I'm afraid, only had the
23 opportunity at the break to give copies to the Defence, as I was
24 regrettably late coming in and the first part of this afternoon's session,
25 but it would be the Prosecution's request that the witness testifies just
1 on these documents and we will produce these documents so there can be a
2 complete record, and that would be closing the issue that was raised on
3 the 18th of February.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Maybe we can begin with that part before
5 the cross-examination, and then --
6 MS. REIDY: Absolutely. If Your Honours prefer that, then we can
7 do that.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So the Prosecution can go ahead with the
10 MS. REIDY: And Your Honours, as I had explained as the documents
11 were received and copied from the witness this morning, they will be in
12 only the B/C/S language and the translations will come as soon as possible
13 afterwards, and I would just have the witness explain them to the
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. There should be no problem, because they're
16 his documents, so he can explain.
17 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: And then the English translation can come later, as
19 you've said.
20 MS. REIDY: If I may explain what's now being distributed and what
21 was distributed to Defence counsel during the break are four documents,
22 and I'm just going to ask the witness to explain them in chronological
23 order what they represent.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
25 MS. REIDY: If I could ask the usher -- can I ask you to place the
1 document you have in your hand that looks like this onto the ELMO, please.
2 Further examination by Ms. Reidy:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dagovic.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. As we don't have a translation of this document, I'd like you to
6 explain to the Chamber the contents of the document and its origins, et
7 cetera. So could I please ask you to look at the document that you can
8 now see on the ELMO, and could you read the word in the middle of the
9 page, which in my pronunciation is "potvrda" and the sentences that follow
10 that, and could you read it slowly, please, so that the interpreters can
11 interpret it fully into English. Thank you.
12 A. Yes. This is a certificate, and my name is Dagovic Esad, and this
13 certificate -- this is to certify that Mr. Dagovic, Esad, son 6 Sabrije,
14 born on 28th of May, 1969, who was employed at our bar, Nana, in the
15 period of 15th of December 1992 to 30th of December 1993, as a waiter.
16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dagovic, the document you've just read from does
17 not bear a date on the face of it. Could you advise the Chamber when you
18 came into possession of this document.
19 A. I asked for this certificate. I asked my former employer to have
20 it after I testified last time, when the Defence tried to apply something
21 that wasn't true, and I'm sure this was a mistake. My employer said that
22 he would look into his archives and see when exactly I worked for him and
23 he would send me this certificate, which is what he did. So now we can
24 see this certificate in front of us. When I say "he," I mean my former
1 Q. Mr. Dagovic, are you familiar with the signature of your former
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you comment on whether you recognise that signature on the
5 document as being that of your former employer?
6 A. Yes. I would also like to add something which I think is
7 important. The gentleman that signed this said that if it was necessary,
8 he could be contacted at the above phone number.
9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dagovic, can I just draw your attention to the
10 address in the left-hand corner of that document.
11 MS. REIDY: And perhaps the document could be lowered on the ELMO
12 so that the... Thank you very much.
13 Q. The address in the left-hand corner I can read is Novi Grad,
14 Croatia. Is that where the bar where you worked was located?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. REIDY: I'd like to turn to the second document.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number?
19 MS. REIDY: Sorry.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This is document P60 ter --
21 P60 ter ID. Thank you.
22 MS. REIDY: And if I could ask the usher to place the second
23 document, which is a four-page document, onto the ELMO. Thank you.
24 Q. Mr. Dagovic, can I ask you: Do you recognise this photocopy of a
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you please describe, not the details of the document, but
3 just describe what the document is for the record, please.
4 A. This is an identification card of a refugee, so a refugee ID,
5 through which a refugee was registered. And we always had to carry this
6 ID on our person in case we were carded, so that we could prove that we
7 were refugees. And we also reported to the Red Cross with this document.
8 Q. Thank you. Who was the -- or which country is the document issued
10 A. This document was issued in Croatia.
11 Q. Can I ask you to look in the right-hand corner, and there is what
12 appears to be a date. Could you please explain to the Chamber what that
13 date represents.
14 A. This date says the 25th of February, 1993.
15 Q. And what date does that represent?
16 A. This is the date when this document was issued. But I'd like to
17 emphasise that before this document, I had another one, but I had to
18 surrender this one in order to get the new one.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. REIDY: Could I ask if the usher could just turn the page to
21 the second page of the document, of the photocopy.
22 Q. Mr. Dagovic, could I ask you to focus on the middle section of the
23 photocopied version of the document, and could you please explain to the
24 Chamber what the top part of the middle section represents. And I can
25 help you out by saying the first line is Mjesto and then Bosanski Samac.
1 Could you just please explain to the Chamber what those top four lines in
2 the middle section of the document represent or record.
3 A. As it says above, this is my permanent residence, the residence
4 before I became a refugee. So the first line says place, Bosanski Samac;
5 street and number; Pere Bosica 72, municipality, Bosanski Samac, country,
6 B and H, Bosnia and Herzegovina, in other words, and date a person became
7 a refugee, 5/11/92.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, the second half of that middle section of the
9 document appears to be another address. Could you explain to us what
10 address is recorded in that part. Could you confirm to us if it is indeed
11 an address, and if so, what that address represents.
12 A. Yes. As the title says, it's current residence, meaning current
13 residence in Croatia. It says care of Nebojsa Nikolic. That was the
14 owner of the apartment where I stayed. Place, Novi Grad. Next line:
15 Street and number, Mareda. Mareda is a neighbourhood, and Buraj 4 is the
16 street and number. Municipality, Buje; country, RH, Republic of Croatia.
17 And what is handwritten below that is Mirko Bilic, Novi Grad. The
18 apartment where I moved after the first one.
19 Q. Mr. Dagovic, could I now draw your attention to the right-hand
20 portion of the document, and there is a date, the 2nd of March, 1993.
21 Could you also explain to the Chamber as best you can what date that
23 A. This is the date of reporting. Under number 1 we see CSR Buje.
24 CS stands for service centre. I don't know what the "R" stands for. Any
25 way, it's a place we had to report every month to get this stamp on our
1 refugee cards.
2 MS. REIDY: Could I ask the usher if we could flip the page to the
3 third part. Thank you.
4 Q. Mr. Dagovic, now on the right-hand side you can see an additional
5 piece of paper which was flipped over on the original -- on the other
6 photocopied page, and we can see a lot of stamps and dates running down
7 the left-hand column. Could you explain just what those dates are to the
9 A. As it says before this number in the right-hand corner,
10 certification of registration or reporting. Reporting was certified by a
11 stamp and a signature, and you can see here the dates when we had to
12 report. The intervals, as you can see, are about a month. Every new
13 reporting would be an extension of our permit, and we would also get a
14 certain amount of aid. You had to report personally and produce this
15 document with your photo on it.
16 MS. REIDY: And finally, could I ask the usher to please turn to
17 the fourth page of that document.
18 Q. And Mr. Dagovic, to complete the record, is this the inside page
19 or the second side of that registration record you've just described?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Dagovic, is it the case that from the 31st of March, 1993
22 through to the 31st of January, 1994, that you personally reported to this
23 centre in Buje in order to have your card stamped and your refugee status
25 A. Yes. And I would like to emphasise, with your leave, that this
1 date does not indicate the date of registration but the date until which
2 registration was valid. So the identity card could not be used by others
3 or abused by others. When it says 30th of April, it meant my registration
4 was valid until that date, and I had to report again in about a month.
5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dagovic, do you have with you the original of this
6 document, the photocopy which is currently on the ELMO?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, do the Bench have an interest in seeing
9 the original document which is photocopied?
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
11 MS. REIDY: Mr. Dagovic, could I ask you to present to the usher
12 the original document.
13 Perhaps the Defence counsel could have a look at it too. They
14 haven't had a chance to inspect the original. If they want.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can proceed.
16 MS. REIDY: Thank you. Then I'd ask if that could be entered into
17 evidence and be given an exhibit number.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This will be P61 ter ID.
20 MS. REIDY: Thank you. Perhaps if the usher could place the next
21 document. I think it should be a two-page -- yes. Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. Dagovic, currently on the ELMO is a photocopy of a
23 identification card with what I believe is your photograph on the
24 left-hand side and your name in the centre. Could you explain to the
25 Chamber what identification card this is?
1 A. Yes. That's an ID card certifying that I was insured with the
2 Sokol Safranic.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
4 A. I was employed with a security company called Sokol Safranic.
5 It's a rather well-known company in the area based in Zagreb.
6 MS. REIDY: Thank you. Can I ask the usher just to put on the
7 second page of the document, which is the reverse side of that
8 identification card.
9 Q. Mr. Dagovic, the date, the 10th of September, 1993, that we can
10 see on the bottom left-hand corner of the ELMO, is that the date you
11 commenced working for this security firm?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the address on the line above the date, Buraj 4, Mareda, was
14 that the address you were residing at at the time you worked for the
15 security company?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you explain to us, Mr. Dagovic: Were you also working at the
18 Nana restaurant during this period?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So from September 1993 onwards you held two jobs; is that correct?
21 A. Correct. Since I worked at the Nana bar mostly in the evenings,
22 during the day I would do this other security job, because I needed money
23 to make ends meet.
24 Q. Thank you. Again, do you have this original of this card with
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. REIDY: Do the Bench have an interest in seeing the original
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
5 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
6 Thank you, Your Honours. Could I move that this be entered into
7 evidence and given an exhibit number?
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have an exhibit number?
9 THE REGISTRAR: This will be P62 ter ID, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: The reason we have ID is, as you know, because we
11 are waiting for the English translations.
12 MS. REIDY: Absolutely. I understand that, Your Honours. Thank
14 And finally again, Mr. Usher, could I ask for the fourth document
15 to be put on the ELMO.
16 Q. Mr. Dagovic, do you recognise the page from which -- do you
17 recognise the document from which the page in front of you is photocopied?
18 A. Yes. This is my passport.
19 Q. Thank you. Could I ask you to look at the -- what I'll call the
20 first column to the right of your photograph, and at the bottom of the
21 column closest to your photograph, there are the words "Ambasada Zagreb."
22 Does that represent the governmental authority who issued you with this
24 A. Yes, that is the authority who issued this document, namely, the
25 embassy of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Zagreb.
1 Q. Did you personally go to collect your passport?
2 A. Certainly, as I would everywhere. You can hardly collect a
3 passport anywhere without being there to sign for it, just as I did the
4 previous time for the document issued me by the International Red Cross.
5 Q. Mr. Dagovic, could I ask you to look at the date just above the
6 words you read, "Ambasada Zagreb." I think it's self-explanatory. It
7 says date of issue the 14th of October, 1993. Is that indeed as best you
8 can recollect the date on which you collected your passport?
9 A. Yes. So the passport is valid from that date, that is, the date
10 when I collected it. And if you see in the right bottom corner, it says
11 14th October 1995, which is the date of expiry.
12 Q. And so in October 1993 you were in Zagreb?
13 A. I went there specially to collect my passport. I was still in
14 Novi Grad at the time. But since the embassy of Bosnia-Herzegovina was in
15 the capital of Croatia and I was residing in Croatia, I had to go to
17 Q. Again, Mr. Dagovic, I believe I asked you if you brought your
18 passport with you to Court. Do you have it here with you?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. REIDY: And again, would the Bench like to see the passport?
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And if you allow me, I would like to
23 stress that on the last page there is a stamp which certifies that I was
24 exempted from paying administrative duty or stamp duty, under Article 27,
25 paragraph 5 of the possession on stamp duties. This means I was relieved
1 of paying the normal fee, as somebody who had been in the camps. Former
2 camp inmates got relief from these duties.
3 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
4 Your Honours, I currently don't have a copy of that page. If you
5 like, for the record, I can --
6 JUDGE MUMBA: We can just see what paper -- what document he has,
7 just compare with the photocopy.
8 MS. REIDY: Thank you. And if I could move to have that
9 document -- or the photocopy which represents the first page of the old
10 passport of Mr. Dagovic entered into evidence.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P63 ter ID, Your Honours.
13 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Dagovic, perhaps you could have a look at your original
15 passport there, since I believe the exhibit copy has been taken away. You
16 see on what I believe is page 1 of your passport there's a stamp which
17 says "ponisteno annule". I'm sure it's pronounced nothing like that, but
18 I'm sure you can see, at least, the stamp I'm referring to.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Just for clarity of the record, could you tell us what exactly
21 that means and, as best as you can recall, the circumstances in which it
22 came to be on your passport, what it means to the status of your passport.
23 A. Well, when your old passport expired and you applied for a new
24 one, the old passport had to be annulled, or cancelled, to prevent forgery
25 or abuse. I really don't know the rules of embassies and consular
1 offices. In any case, you had to get this stamp on your old passport.
2 You were allowed to keep it, but with this stamp that says cancelled, or
4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Dagovic. I think it's usual that
5 the bearer of a passport signs his or her name, and there is provision for
6 signature of bearer on that same cover page. Both in the original when I
7 took a look, and also in the photocopy, there's no signature by you. Is
8 there a reason for that?
9 A. No. There was no particular reason. If you were crossing
10 borders, that signature would have been necessary, but I got the form for
11 the issuance of the passport at an embassy and I signed for my new
12 passport when I got it. I don't think actually that even my current
13 passport is signed. Nobody ever asked me about it. Maybe I'll have
14 problems when I cross the border next time.
15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
16 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
17 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a question to the Prosecution. What is
18 the Prosecution aiming at by putting forward the question that the former
19 passport was annulled? What is the -- what is the question? Thank you.
20 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. I was going to ask one follow-up
21 question. The only reason I ask is the stamp does appear in the passport.
22 This may be the only chance the witness has to explain what the stamp
23 meant and when it came to be upon his passport, unless any suggestion be
24 made that this document was annulled for reasons other than when it was
25 expired, such as the witness has explained. And it was -- when it
1 appeared on the face of the record that there was a stamp called
2 "cancelled," I didn't want to bring into doubt that it was cancelled for
3 any reason relating to, for example, that the witness was in Zagreb in
4 October 1993, when this passport was issued, and matters like that. So
5 the witness -- I'm going to ask him if he knew exactly when the stamp was
6 put in his passport and that might at least explain its presence rather
7 than anything else be read into it. It was as simple as that.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. You can proceed.
9 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
10 Q. And Mr. Dagovic, just on that: You've explained that when the
11 passport was cancelled that the stamp came to be upon it. Do you recall
12 when your passport was cancelled? Was it when you expired or when you
13 changed country, or for what reason was it ultimately cancelled?
14 A. That passport was cancelled -- I really don't know. I have
15 another passport which was issued after that, but I don't have it with
16 me. It's back home. I could send you a copy. So I have another
17 passport, in any case. And when this passport expired, it was in 1995,
18 and I got a new passport in 1996 or 1997. And when I went to the embassy,
19 based on my old passport, I applied for a new one, and they put a stamp on
20 my old one. I got it back, and I also got from them a new, valid
21 passport. This passport was issued to me in the vicinity of the country
22 where I am a refugee, because in the country where I am currently a
23 refugee, there is no embassy.
24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dagovic, from the end of 1992 throughout the
25 period of 1993, were you residing in and working in and around Novi Grad,
1 in the Republic of Croatia?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you ever stop working or cease to be a refugee and go
4 participate on the front lines in any combat activity in
6 A. No.
7 Q. You continued to work as a waiter in the Nana Cafe throughout --
8 or from the end of 1992 and throughout 1993?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you had a refugee status with an address in and around Novi
11 Grad throughout that same period; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, thank you. We're finished with the
15 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we'll have to do the cross-examination in
16 two parts. First of all, on the documents that the witness has produced,
17 is there any counsel who wants to raise questions on any of the documents
18 before the Trial Chamber?
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, if we could confer for two minutes,
20 because we have just received these documents. We found it on the table.
21 So maybe it would be appropriate if we take a look and discuss it amongst
22 us. On the other hand, I'm ready to cross-examine this witness about the
23 events of April 17 and 18, so I can start with that right away.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, then. We can start with that. What I'm
25 trying to avoid is combining, yes. So you can ask on the 16th and 17th,
1 yes, the dates we agreed upon for re-cross-examination.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Precisely, Your Honour, and I will finish with
3 that topic. After that maybe we can confer or maybe it's appropriate to
4 confer right at this time and then --
5 JUDGE MUMBA: I think you better go ahead with the
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Further cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon again, Mr. Dagovic. I have
10 already cross-examined you once, last time you stayed here in The Hague.
11 This time you are here only so that we could clear up certain things that
12 remained unclear. These have to do with the 17th of April, 1992. The
13 questions will be short, very simple, and I would like you to answer me
14 with "yes," "no," or "I don't know."
15 First I'm going to ask you about certain persons. I will give you
16 their names and then you should pause a little bit and tell me whether you
17 know them or not. Damir Dzakic?
18 A. The name is familiar, but --
19 Q. So you just know him by name?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Ferhat Sahacic?
22 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that name.
23 Q. Muharem Drljacic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mirsad Srna?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Salko Srna?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Muharem Jasarevic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Suad Hodzic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Fadil Sabanovic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Osman Mesic, nicknamed Semso?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Ratif Atic, nicknamed Raec?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Kemal Atic, nicknamed Kilo?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Dedo Halilovic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Izet Ramusovic, nicknamed Daso?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Kemal Mehinovic, Kemal the baker?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Before your earlier testimony you said that you knew Ibrahim
23 Salkic, nicknamed Ibela, as well as Muhamed and Hasan Bicic; is that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Mr. Dagovic, you were armed with an automatic rifle along with
2 this group of people that I just mentioned, walked towards Donja Mahala,
3 along the street of Vuk Karadzic; is this correct?
4 A. No.
5 Q. By the primary school you met Darko Dujmusic, who told you to
6 return because you would all be killed; is that correct?
7 A. No.
8 Q. After that, along with this group, you came by the cafe called
9 Zeljo, where you were joined by another group of armed people; is that
11 A. No.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
13 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, when this witness was recalled, he was
14 recalled for one purpose: To be cross-examined in relation to a statement
15 which we found a few months ago and turned over, and this Court viewed
16 that it was a late discovery matter, and since it was a late discovery
17 matter, they authorised counsel to cross-examine him on that document.
18 Now they're cross-examining him in relation to another document, which is
19 the Kemal Mehinovic statement made in the SUP, which is the gentleman who
20 just testified a few days ago. That was not the guidelines for this
21 cross-examination. It was, as I thought, strictly in relation to that
22 document which was provided late by the Prosecution.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is of the view that counsel is
25 within the bounds given by the Trial Chamber on the events of the 16th and
1 17th. So counsel can proceed.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Rather, up to the 18th, actually.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. After that, sir, together with this group, you came to cafe Zeljo,
6 where you were joined with another group of armed people?
7 A. Well, I couldn't answer you, because I wasn't there. I can't tell
8 you if we were joined by another group or not, because I wasn't there. I
9 don't think this question was formed well enough.
10 Q. You could just say no, just like up until this point.
11 A. Well, I couldn't say, because I wasn't there. How can I say if
12 this group was joined by another group if I wasn't present?
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Dagovic, just answer the questions put to you by
14 counsel. Do not ask counsel any questions. We'll be much faster that
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. From there you went to the yard situated in front of the
18 Carrington building; is that correct?
19 A. No.
20 Q. In this yard belonging to the Carrington building, Muhamed
21 Omeranovic went to the house belonging to Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic; is
22 that correct?
23 A. No.
24 Q. After that Salkic told you to disperse and go to your homes; is
25 that correct?
1 A. No.
2 Q. But you didn't go home; is that correct?
3 A. I don't know what I'm supposed to answer.
4 Q. You returned home on the 18th of April, early in the morning; is
5 that correct?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Mr. Dagovic, your father's name is Sabrija Dagovic; is that
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You are familiar with the fact that your father made a statement
11 to the OTP on the 25th of May, 1995? Are you familiar with that fact?
12 A. I know that he gave a statement, but I didn't know the exact date.
13 Q. Mr. Dagovic, do you know that your father, in his statement, said
14 the following: "I did not participate in any --"
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.
16 MR. WEINER: Once again, whether or not he knows what his father
17 says doesn't make a difference. His mental state as to his father's
18 statement doesn't make a different difference. If they want to impeach
19 Mr. Dagovic, Mr. Esad Dagovic, they have to bring the father in. You
20 can't impeach him with someone else's statement.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic, we've been through this before.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, there is already a ruling regarding
23 this particular question. It is absolutely the same.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Same approach you are taking.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Same approach, same question.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter would wish to correct the record
3 on page 51, line 18. The house belonged to Muhamed Omeranovic and he
4 talked to Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic.
5 THE WITNESS: I didn't participate in any kind of resistance, but
6 my sons belonged to a group of people who, during the first day,
7 resisted. Both my sons were armed and they participated in the battles in
8 the town. They returned home Saturday morning around 9.30 on the 18th of
9 April, 1992."
10 Q. Do you know that this is what your father said to the OTP?
11 A. I wouldn't know what he said. You'd have to ask him about that.
12 Q. Mr. Dagovic, you know that your brother Safet Dagovic also
13 testified here before the Tribunal? Do you know about this?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you talk to him before he came to testify here at the
17 A. I talk to him every day, but what exactly are you referring to?
18 You mean about the trial?
19 Q. I will explain. In your everyday conversations with your brother,
20 has there been any mention of this trial?
21 A. Yes, but no details.
22 Q. So you talked with your brother about this trial?
23 A. Well, not really. Only that he was supposed to come here, so we
24 only talked about him coming here.
25 Q. And you didn't mention anything about what you said here before
1 this Chamber?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Connected to your testimony before this Chamber, did you get in
4 touch with any other people and talk to them about it?
5 A. What do you mean?
6 Q. Did you talk to any other persons about your testimony here?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you call Dzaro Arnautovic, from Bosanski Samac, and talk to
9 him about your testimony?
10 A. No. I only talked to him about my testimony that I did at the
11 trial in Samac. It has to do with my house.
12 Q. Did you call Muris Focakovic, called Mura, from Salt Lake City?
13 A. Yes. I would like to correct you. He does not live in Salt Lake
14 City but in Florida, but I did call him.
15 Q. Did you talk to him about your testimony before this Chamber?
16 A. I didn't talk about the testimony. I talked to him about certain
17 issues that happened -- things that happened during the war.
18 Q. Did you try to persuade him that he should come and testify and
19 say certain things before this Chamber?
20 A. I didn't try to persuade him. He said it himself. And there was
21 also a tape made of this conversation.
22 Q. You mentioned that this conversation was taped. Did you tape this
24 A. No, I didn't. The phone --
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
1 MR. WEINER: This is outside the scope. Unless they can explain
2 that this concerns the 17th and 18th.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I withdraw that. I have no further
5 questions. Now we can confirm and with---
6 JUDGE MUMBA: You said you wanted to confer with counsel?
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Confer with counsel about --
8 JUDGE MUMBA: The documents?
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: The documents, yes.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel on the events of the 16th, 17th,
12 and 18th?
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, on the events of 17 and 18, just
14 about these documents.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: So no other counsel.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: No other counsel for this.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: So just on the documents now. I wish to remind
18 counsel that cross-examination was done covering the period from the time
19 he was arrested or confined up to the time of his exchange. So if any
20 cross-examination is being raised as to what has been said only today and
21 perhaps the validity or otherwise of the documents produced
22 Further cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Dagovic. We already talked
24 last time.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask for the usher's
1 assistance. I would like him to place the document P60 ter on the ELMO.
2 Q. Mr. Dagovic, this is the certificate that you brought today that
3 has to do with your alleged employment at the bar Nana. There is no date
4 on this certificate.
5 A. No.
6 Q. When was it issued?
7 A. It was issued after my testimony.
8 Q. And the date?
9 A. Well, I don't remember exactly when I testified.
10 Q. Is there a reason why there is no date on this document?
11 A. No. I don't see a reason.
12 Q. Mr. Dagovic, this certificate also does not have a stamp.
13 A. If you look into the upper left corner, you will see the name and
14 the emblem of the company. That is instead of the stamp.
15 Q. Mr. Dagovic, this is a letterhead; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. This can be made on any computer, with any printer.
18 A. Well, I wouldn't know. I really wouldn't know if this can be made
19 so easily.
20 Q. Do you have an original?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you show it to us?
23 A. Yes. Just one portion, because this document also has my address
24 on it, and because I've received threats from Sabac [phoen] I wouldn't
25 like to show you this whole document because of my address on it.
1 Q. Could you please show it to us and put something over your address
2 so that we don't see it.
3 A. Well, that has already been done, and I will show you this
4 document now.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, you've seen the original?
6 MS. REIDY: I have seen the original, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: And the protected information is well covered?
8 MS. REIDY: Well, what the witness has now, it was well covered so
9 that when I made a photocopy of it you couldn't see through it. And I'm
10 sorry I didn't explain that to the Chamber when I first put it on the
11 ELMO. It was just the address.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
13 MS. REIDY: But I can --
14 JUDGE MUMBA: That's all right, because counsel can look at it and
15 he's aware of the Rules on protected material, and the Bench can also have
16 a look if we wish to do so.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have one objection
18 that has to do with the way this document was presented. The Prosecutor
19 did not tell us that there was a portion of the document that was not
20 available for us to see, and I would like the trial to keep that in mind
21 when they determine the significance of this document.
22 Q. Mr. Dagovic, are you aware with the fact that --
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Do you know that in Croatia every company has its own stamp?
1 A. Yes, generally speaking, yes. But I don't see a problem, because
2 there is a phone number and the man said that he could be contacted, and I
3 will also take care of the stamp, if that's so important.
4 Q. When an official document is signed, there always has to be the
5 name of the person that signs the document and also the person's position?
6 A. Generally speaking, yes.
7 Q. There is no position listed on this person, nor is there a name of
8 the person that signed this document; is that correct?
9 A. There is no stamp, but the owner of the bar signed it.
10 Q. But his name and his job description isn't on the document; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes, but the name of his bar is on the document.
13 Q. Mr. Dagovic, when you worked in this bar, did you have a contract
14 regulating your employment?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you have this document here?
17 A. No, but I can provide it to you very quickly.
18 Q. Were you paid through a bank account?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did the owner, the person that employed you, pay contributions for
21 you to the state?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Were you registered as a worker in this bar with the state?
24 A. I don't believe so, because I was a refugee.
25 Q. What is your employer's name?
1 A. It says right there: Kuric Faruk and Ruza Kuric.
2 Q. I don't see it.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. I don't see it on the document. Mr. Dagovic, could you please
5 tell me whether you were employed with them or whether you were working at
6 their company?
7 A. He is the owner of the company. He owns hotels, camping grounds,
8 bungalows. He's the owner of the company and he owns all these things.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, page 58, row 23, the answer of the
11 witness: He actually named two persons, Mr. Kuric Faruk and Kuric Ruza.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The transcript doesn't show that.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: The transcript doesn't show that, and if I could ask
14 that this be clarified.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure Mr. Krgovic can ask the witness to repeat
16 the names.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Could you please repeat the names of these people.
19 A. Yes. They are husband and wife, Faruk and Ruza Kuric.
20 Q. Mr. Dagovic, were you employed at the company that issued this
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you have a contract with them?
24 A. Well, I don't have it on me, but I can get it.
25 Q. But you signed a work contract?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What was the date?
3 A. I can't remember correctly, but you can see right here that it is
4 stated when I worked for them, the time frame, so I don't know. Maybe I
5 signed it a couple of days earlier than I started working.
6 Q. So you had a contract, you had an employment contract that was
8 A. Well, I wouldn't know. You have to ask him that.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can I ask you: What's the point of this
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we doubt the validity
12 of this document because there is no stamp, no name of the person that
13 gave this certificate, although there is -- it is very common that the --
14 although there are certain or more authentic documents could be obtained
15 because everybody that is working for a private company needs to be
16 registered with the state, so -- and also contributions to the state
17 should be made. So if there was some kind of a statement from the bank
18 that money was paid into it, that taxes were paid and contributions were
19 paid, that would be a valid document. But from this document you can only
20 see that he worked for a while, and nothing more.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can make submissions on that. Is it also
22 your case that he didn't actually work during this period shown on the
23 document with the employers that he has stated? Is it the Defence case?
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the relevance to the Defence case?
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It is relevant because of the
2 credibility of this witness. It is the position of the Defence that the
3 witness did not say the truth about many things.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. Let's stick to only this document, the
5 contents of this document.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Because this witness mentioned in
7 his statement to the Prosecutor that he -- in the period for which this
8 certificate was issued, he said that he worked -- that he was in HVO in
9 Orasje, and this period is exactly the same as the one for which this
10 certificate was issued.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
12 MS. REIDY: Objection. That's not what the witness had said in
13 his statement. This was fully explored during the appropriate time as to
14 what the witness has said in his statement, how it might have been
15 interpreted, that's up for the Bench to evaluate in its deliberations.
16 That's gone, but what counsel put on the record off the top of his head
17 now is not accurate, but I --
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because this is what my worry was that we are
19 going over material which has already been covered. The challenge has
20 already been posed to the witness. It's just a question of dealing with
21 the document. You have stated that you are doubting the validity of the
22 document because of the reasons you have stated, and it's a matter for
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be shown
25 a different document. I have finished with the present one. It is P62
1 ter ID.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the Bench be shown the original P60 ter when
3 it's here, when it's available?
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Krgovic, have you seen the original of the
6 document P60 ter?
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. No. No. Sorry.
8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: No. Only the photocopy?
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Only the photocopy, yes.
10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Because it seems, looking at the original, the
11 letterhead which is in colour and quite detailed, I'm not sure whether
12 this could just be produced off any computer, as you were suggesting.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Maybe you could take a look at the original with
15 the personal details re: The witness covered up. And maybe the registry
16 assistant could assist in covering up the appropriate portion.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Could the Prosecution just have another look at it
18 after Mr. Krgovic has had an opportunity to look at it, please.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Yes.
20 Yes, counsel can -- you can proceed, Mr. Krgovic.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have inspected the
22 original. It's not the letterhead that's the problem. The problem is
23 that in the issuance of such documents, the practice of the former
24 Yugoslavia, and in many other countries, is that such documents are
25 supposed to be stamped. It's not the letterhead and the signature of the
1 officer in charge which make up such documents. But I agree that it is a
2 matter of submission, and we will make it later.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Dagovic, will you please look at this first page.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. It hasn't been put on
7 the ELMO.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: For which document?
9 MR. KRGOVIC: P62 ter ID
10 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Dagovic, this company Sokol Safranic, this is a firm providing
13 technical and physical security to persons and facilities?
14 A. Yes. Mainly physical security.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Will counsel please slow down. They are
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, if you can be -- you pause.
18 And also, Mr. Dagovic, if you can pause to allow interpretation to
19 complete both the question and the answer.
20 Yes, you can go ahead now.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Dagovic, the owner of this company, Mr. Safranic, master of
23 martial arts, is a man who is qualified and very well trained for this
24 job, for this kind of business?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So in order to work in this security job, you also had to have
2 some training in this field?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. As far as I know, this Sokol Safranic company mainly employs
5 former combatants and veterans from the previous wars.
6 A. And also inmates who had gotten used in the camps to blows and
8 Q. So you are trained for this security job. Did you go through a
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Provided by Mr. Safranic?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So before you got this job, you never had to pass a test at the
14 Sokol Safranic company to qualify for the job?
15 A. I did. I only said that it wasn't before Mr. Safranic personally
16 but in front of his employees.
17 Q. So you took a test in the field of martial arts?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where?
20 A. In Porec, near Novi Grad, Istria.
21 Q. Not in Zagreb?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Where was this document issued?
24 A. In Zagreb.
25 Q. So you were in Zagreb on the 10th of September?
1 A. Yes, when the document was issued.
2 Q. So in that period, you were not working at the pizzeria, or
3 rather, the Nana bar?
4 A. Perhaps I had a day off. I don't know.
5 Q. And during that training, during that course, you were not working
6 at the Nana pizzeria?
7 A. That's not correct. I worked in the period which is indicated in
8 the certificate. If you look more carefully when this ID card was issued
9 and when I stopped working, you will see there is an interval of three
10 months, if I'm correct, where I still worked at the Nana.
11 Q. So at the time when this certificate was issued, you were not
12 working at the bar?
13 A. That's not correct.
14 Q. But in the period -- I have to look at the transcript, because I
15 didn't quite understand you.
16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Krgovic, maybe for the sake of clarity, with
17 the assistance of yourself and the witness, you can just lead us through
18 the dates: the date on the certificate re: the Nana bar, when he began
19 the employment, when it finished, and then the date on the backside of the
20 so-called security ID card which states the date that he commenced work.
21 And then with some simple arithmetic we can see whether there was an
22 overlap or not.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Dagovic, according to this certificate, you were employed at
25 the Nana bar from the 15th December 1992 to the 30th December 1993, as a
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This ID from the Sokol company --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down, especially with
5 dates. Interpreter's request.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: Can you put on the ELMO the second page, please.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you should slow down when you are dictating
8 dates especially.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. So this ID card was issued in Zagreb on the 10th of September,
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And I asked you about this training and this ID card, and you
14 answered that at that time you weren't working at the Nana pizzeria.
15 A. That's not correct, because I said I had a day off perhaps.
16 MS. REIDY: The witness --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
18 MS. REIDY: Yes. I just wanted to correct that the witness didn't
19 say he wasn't working at the Nana cafe at that time.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, and he answered that question anyway.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. And when you said that in that period you were not working at the
23 Nana bar, which period did you mean? Did you mean the period of the
25 A. I didn't say I wasn't working at the Nana bar at all. Look at it
1 more carefully. I just said that I was free to go and take or collect
2 this certificate.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: Excuse me for a moment, Your Honour.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. On page 65, to my question, you said there were three months,
7 which when we compare with these dates, I will understand that these
8 intervals do not coincide. Can you explain what you meant?
9 A. Everything coincides. If you look at what I said before, I said
10 that I was mainly working in the evenings at Nana, which means that during
11 the day I was doing this job. And I said I needed the money to make ends
12 meet, and that means I did simultaneously two jobs for about three
13 months. I hope this was clear enough.
14 Q. Tell me, where was this course for the security company?
15 A. I just said it was in Porec, near Novi Grad.
16 Q. Which period?
17 A. Perhaps a month before this card was issued, because without
18 passing the course I wouldn't have been able to get this ID card.
19 Q. How long did the training last?
20 A. Maybe three weeks.
21 Q. And in that period you were not working at the Nana bar? That's
22 my question.
23 A. I'm telling you for the umpteenth time: I was working there, and
24 please don't try to lead me to thin ice. I was working throughout until
25 the date indicated on the certificate. I was employed there. I was on
1 the payroll. And in addition, I was working for Safranic from the 10th of
2 September until my departure from Croatia.
3 Q. There's three weeks that you mention. Were you working at the
4 Nana bar?
5 A. Yes. Yes.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: I think the witness did say at the bar he was
7 working mainly in the evenings, so it was possible for him to be engaged
8 elsewhere during the day. So or perhaps you're just challenging all that.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm asking him about
10 the training course. Since the witness said he had passed the three-week
11 training for this security firm, I asked him whether during this training,
12 which took three weeks, and I supposed it was intensive training, in view
13 of the qualifications required, was he able to work at the bar during that
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps the witness can answer that.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And you worked throughout the training?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you have a contract with the Sokol Safranic company on your
22 A. This ID card is the contract. I have no other contract.
23 Q. Did you get a salary from them?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you registered?
1 A. By whom?
2 Q. Were you registered as an employee of this company with the
3 competent authorities? Did your employer register you?
4 A. You have to ask him.
5 Q. Tell me, did you go through a training in handling weapons during
6 this course?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And did you carry weapons on this security job?
9 A. No.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy. I can understand why you're
11 objecting, because this period is outside.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other --
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Dagovic, that same document, the ID card for
16 Sokol, could you tell us what the number on the left-hand side is? It's
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would be the number of my ID
20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other questions? Well, perhaps we can take a
22 break. It's almost one a and a half hours - for 20 minutes. We shall
23 resume at 5 to 6.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's re-examination.
2 MS. REIDY: No, Your Honour. I've got no re-examination.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber would like to ask the Prosecution
4 on P60 ter ID to photocopy -- to have a photocopy with all the
5 information. It will be under seal so that we have a correct photocopy.
6 MS. REIDY: Indeed, Your Honour, we can certainly do that. In
7 fact, maybe, given there's a lot of discussion about this document, I
8 could ask the witness whether, given that this is under seal, the original
9 could not be given to the Chamber. I think that would be much more
10 beneficial in your deliberations given that the mark was discussed and
11 things like that. Would that be of assistance?
12 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't seem to understand what you're trying to
13 say, Ms. Reidy, because all I asked for was to have a photocopy with all
14 the information on the original and then have it under seal.
15 MS. REIDY: Absolutely, Your Honour. My suggestion was that
16 perhaps rather than a photocopy of the original, since all the information
17 is going to be visible but that document will be under seal.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
19 MS. REIDY: The original itself rather than a photocopy of the
20 original could be entered into evidence under seal.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: I see, yes. And.
22 MS. REIDY: And for future purposes and for the deliberations that
23 may be of assistance.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. If it's not an important document for the
25 witness. The Prosecution can find out that later.
1 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. Do I understand that if you can
2 have the original under seal, you would prefer that, otherwise we will
3 definitely provide a photocopy.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Dagovic, for coming back again. We
7 are now through and you can go.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, if -- I am conscious about the time
12 while the new witness comes in. I have received some translations of a
13 certain document. I believe I didn't have enough time to consult with my
14 colleagues, but this is D35/2 document. It's a General Hospital
15 protection from -- this is the document from June 1992, a list of workers
16 and amount of the working days during the month of June 1992. And if my
17 colleagues don't have any objection to it, I would like to tender it into
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution?
20 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I can't recall the evidence
21 surrounding this particular document, but I think we can safely say that
22 we'll consent to its being given a full identity number, fully admitted
23 into evidence on the basis that the evaluation of its worth we can make
24 submissions on at a later time.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have confirmation that as an exhibit it
1 will bear the same number? And also number the English translation.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Mr. Usher, four copies.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I notice that the defendants are changing
4 positions. It's all right. That's all right.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the next witness will be
6 giving evidence in closed session.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. These will be D35/2 ter and
8 Exhibit D35/2. Thank you.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will go into closed session for the next
12 [Closed session]
12 Pages 7874–7892 - redacted – closed session
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of May,
13 2002, at 6.59 p.m.