Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8209

1 Wednesday, 22 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Milan Simic not present]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber has been informed that there

11 are matters which the Prosecution wishes to raise.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. It's just a question of

13 scheduling of witnesses. The next witness is Blaz Paradzik, as you know.

14 He's waiting to proceed and is waiting outside. I'm also hopeful that his

15 evidence will be brief, at least fairly short compared to many of the

16 other witnesses in the case. And there may arise a situation tomorrow

17 whereby we finish early. I have made arrangements to bring in another

18 witness whom my colleague Mr. Weiner is hopefully going to start proofing

19 this afternoon. That's Mr. Ibro Taletovic. And if, as I think we will,

20 finish well before tomorrow, we can start that witness at some point

21 tomorrow afternoon.

22 The situation, however, will arise that the next witness after

23 him, Alija Fitozovic, who is I think a reasonably important witness, will

24 be flying in on Friday, the day that the Trial Chamber is not sitting.

25 His proofing can proceed over the weekend. That's not a problem. He will

Page 8210

1 be ready to go Monday morning. He has to fly --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Monday afternoon.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry. Monday afternoon.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Because we're still in May next week.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Sorry. Monday afternoon. Now, I'm handling

6 that particular witness, and I've got several reasons for asking that we

7 be -- the Prosecution be granted permission to interpose him in the

8 evidence of Taletovic on Monday if that situation arises. First of all,

9 Mr. Taletovic is, because of his residence, the place that he lives, is a

10 witness who is a lot easier to get here to the Tribunal than Alija

11 Fitozovic, who has to be flown in from the former Yugoslavia. So keeping

12 Alija Fitozovic here is going to be more expensive, a greater strain on

13 him, and for those considerations, I suggest it makes good practical sense

14 to deal with him as quickly as we can. Secondly, if we deal with him as

15 quickly as we can next week that frees me up to go and deal with Todorovic

16 and have him come in smoothly after Fitozovic and that's what I am hoping

17 will happen.

18 Now, Mr. Taletovic could come back at some later stage. If that

19 arrangement is suitable, can we proceed on that basis?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the Trial Chamber will have no

21 problems with that, because what is important is to get on with the

22 evidence, the viva voce evidence witnesses as much as possible.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If I'm wrong in my estimation that this

24 next witness will finish quickly and we go with him all of tomorrow as

25 well, then the exercise with Mr. Taletovic will not have been wasted

Page 8211

1 because valuable proofing exercise will have been completed in any event

2 and we'll be ready to slot him in smoothly at some point in the future.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: So the Defence have to prepare for something like

4 three witnesses, apart from the one coming now.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. They've received the proofing notes from that

6 witness. But they have to be prepared for tomorrow afternoon -- if we

7 finish this witness tomorrow afternoon early, they have to be prepared for

8 Mr. Taletovic to come in to fill in the rest of the time. And then they

9 have to be prepared, if you accept my proposal, on Monday afternoon to

10 kick off -- to start with Alija Fitozovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Alija Fitozovic, yes.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: So can I --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I think that is clear, yes.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Is that suitable to the Chamber?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that would be okay to the Chamber, as long as

16 we don't waste any time waiting for our witness. It's practical to get

17 somebody else in the meantime.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: That's what I'm trying to avoid and that's why I've

19 asked for that arrangement. Thank you, if Your Honours please, and may

20 the next witness be called.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the witness make the solemn declaration.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 8212

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

3 The Prosecution, you can start.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

6 Q. Where were you born?

7 A. In Prud, municipality of Bosanski Samac.

8 Q. And just to remind the Chamber, is Prud a small town or village

9 just across the Bosna River from the town of Bosanski Samac?

10 A. Yes. It's a smaller place. It's a village on the left bank of

11 the River Bosna.

12 Q. Is its population predominantly of one ethnic group or another?

13 A. Yes. It's mostly of one ethnic group.

14 Q. And what ethnic group is that?

15 A. Croat.

16 Q. If asked to describe your ethnic background, what would you say it

17 is?

18 A. I am a Croat.

19 Q. Thank you. Where were you educated?

20 A. In Bosanski Samac.

21 Q. What level of education did you achieve?

22 A. A secondary school.

23 Q. In the former Yugoslavia, it was common for men to perform

24 military service. Did you perform military service, and if so, what years

25 did you perform it in?

Page 8213

1 A. Yes. I performed it in 1972.

2 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Chamber of your working career, and

3 in particular, I'm interested to know the sort of work that you were doing

4 in the months prior to April of 1992.

5 A. I was employed at the company called Hidroput from Sisak in

6 Croatia. I resided in Prud when it wasn't working.

7 Q. And what sort of work did you do with the company Hidroput?

8 A. I was a manager.

9 Q. And what does Hidroput do? What sort of work does it perform?

10 A. It is a company that deals with shipping on water.

11 Q. And does it deal with shipping and boating that took place on the

12 rivers of the former Yugoslavia, including the Sava and so on?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. Thank you. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party of

15 the former Yugoslavia?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you ever join any political party in the -- whilst living in

18 the former Yugoslavia?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what political party was that?

21 A. Yes. I was a member of the Croatian Democratic Union, the HDZ.

22 Q. When did you join the HDZ?

23 A. In 1992.

24 Q. 1992?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8214

1 Q. It's not in dispute in this case that hostilities broke out in

2 Bosanski Samac on the night of the 16th and 17th of April, 1992. Thinking

3 back, how long before that had you joined the HDZ? Was it in the same

4 year?

5 A. Well, I'm not sure exactly about the date. I might have joined a

6 little bit earlier than that, but I don't recall the exact date.

7 Q. Thank you. That's okay. I'm not asking for a precise date. Is

8 it the case that you were a member of the HDZ for only a matter of months

9 before the events in April of 1992 in Bosanski Samac?

10 A. Yes, something like that.

11 Q. Thank you. In that year of 1992, were you a member of any form or

12 type of local commune that existed in Prud?

13 A. Yes. I was the vice-president of the local commune.

14 Q. Can you briefly explain to the Chamber what the local commune was,

15 how it was formed, and what sort of tasks it undertook?

16 A. After the multiparty elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina, a local

17 commune was formed from the winner party. In my town, the HDZ won. And

18 members of the party became members of the local commune. The positions

19 were unsalaried. We weren't professionals. And we took care of the needs

20 that existed in the town of Prud. We took care of everybody, of

21 everything.

22 Q. I take it you were charged with the responsibility of dealing with

23 local issues affecting the town, that sort of thing.

24 A. More or less we were charged with the responsibilities in our

25 town.

Page 8215

1 Q. Thank you. And had this system of local communes been in

2 existence in the former Yugoslavia for some time prior to the multiparty

3 elections? In other words, was it a common feature of life in small towns

4 in the former Yugoslavia?

5 A. Yes. It existed in the former Yugoslavia as well. This same

6 organisation continued. It was some form of local self-management. It

7 was quite normal.

8 Q. Thank you. I'll return to the local communes at a later point.

9 I want to ask you if you know a gentleman named Blagoje Simic.

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. How long have you known him, and can you comment on the type of

12 relationship that you had with him, namely, whether you were friends,

13 acquaintances, or you just knew who the person was.

14 A. I knew him. We weren't friends, but we weren't acquaintances.

15 Well, I knew him, at least.

16 Q. Did he once treat your mother in relation to her dialysis

17 treatment for kidney problems?

18 A. Yes, he did.

19 Q. Have a look around the room and see if you can see him. If you

20 can, point him out, please.

21 A. The gentleman with the beard, in the middle.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Can the record indicate that the

23 witness identified Mr. Simic, Mr. Blagoje Simic.


25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

Page 8216

1 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Miroslav Tadic?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Did he have a nickname Brko?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How long would you say that you've known him?

6 A. About 30 years.

7 Q. Again, can you carry out the same exercise. Look around the room

8 and see if you can identify him; if you can, point him out.

9 A. He's the first from that side.

10 Q. Does he have any facial hair?

11 A. He has a moustache. He's grey-haired.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the record indicate that the witness has

14 correctly identified Mr. Tadic.


16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

17 Q. And the other gentleman I want to ask you about is Simo Zaric. Do

18 you know him?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. How long have you known him?

21 A. Same thing: About 30 years.

22 Q. In the past, have you had conversations with him?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. You've heard him speak, heard his voice?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8217

1 Q. Did you ever play soccer with him?

2 A. Yes. That was our hobby.

3 Q. Was that in a football club called the Veteran, or Veteran

4 Football Club?

5 A. Yes, that's what it was called. The people that were playing

6 football recreationally and were a little bit older were called the

7 Veterans.

8 Q. And he was on the team with you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You had numerous occasions, I take it, to speak with him and hear

11 him speak, hear his voice?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You say that you've known him about 30 years. Can you recall

14 approximately when you first met him?

15 A. While he was in secondary school.

16 Q. Were you at secondary school as well?

17 A. That's since we've known each other. That's when we started

18 talking to each other.

19 Q. Have you ever drunk with him or attended social occasions with

20 him?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Can you conduct the same exercise that you did in

23 respect of the other two and have a look around and see if you can

24 identify him.

25 A. The gentleman with the red tie.

Page 8218

1 MR. DI FAZIO: I can't see the tie that Mr. Simic [sic] is

2 wearing. I'm hoping it's red. If it is, can the record indicate that the

3 witness has correctly identified Mr. Zaric.


5 Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. Page 9, line 23. I didn't hear,

7 actually, the original, what Mr. Di Fazio said. It's not Mr. Simic. I

8 suppose it should be Mr. Zaric, with regard to the tie.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can correct that.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Pantelic is quite correct. I don't think

12 there's any dispute that the witness identified Mr. Zaric.

13 Q. Now, in the period of time leading up to April of 1992, was there

14 a degree of tension building up in the area that you lived in at that

15 time, around Prud, Bosanski Samac, and so on?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were civilians arming themselves?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you possess any weapons yourself?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What sort of weapons did you possess?

22 A. Hunting weapons. Carbine and a hunting rifle.

23 Q. Were those weapons licensed, fully licensed?

24 A. Yes, they were.

25 Q. Thank you. You've already described that tension was rising in

Page 8219

1 the former Yugoslavia. Was there the appearance, the emerging appearance,

2 of checkpoints at various towns and villages in the municipality of

3 Bosanski Samac and indeed in the general area around your town?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was the positioning of checkpoints a matter that local town

6 communes were interested in and would meet to discuss?

7 A. Yes. They were interested in that, and it was discussed.

8 Q. Around your village or town of Prud, were there other villages

9 which were inhabited mainly by people of Serb ethnicity?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was there just such a village named Struke, S-t-r-u-k-e?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. About how far is that from Prud?

14 A. It's in the same line as Prud and almost forms one whole with it.

15 Q. I see. So in terms of actual buildings and structure, it looks as

16 if it's part of the same town as Prud?

17 A. You could put it that way.

18 Q. However, Serbs live in Struke and Croats live mainly in Prud?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. In the months, the two or three months leading up to -- perhaps

21 I'll rephrase that. In the early part of 1992, did the residents of

22 Struke indicate any desire in regard of the setting up of checkpoints?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was the positioning of checkpoints in Struke a matter that local

25 communes became involved in?

Page 8220

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were meetings held? And I should add: Were meetings held to

3 discuss that issue, the positioning of checkpoints in Struke?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you attend such meetings?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. Can you tell the Chamber why the residents of Struke wanted to

8 establish checkpoints?

9 A. It was customary for us to hold meetings. Parts of local communes

10 of the Odzak municipality and certain warnings were issued, or

11 announcements were made, that they wished to install checkpoints at the

12 entrance to Prud. We were taken aback by such a proposition, and we

13 couldn't understand why they would want to do that.

14 Q. Can I just ask you to pause there, and perhaps we can add a bit

15 more detail to your account as we go along. You say "They wished to

16 install checkpoints." Who precisely wanted to install checkpoints?

17 A. The inhabitants of Struke.

18 Q. Thank you. And you say that, "We were taken aback by such a

19 proposition." Who is the "we" that you refer to?

20 A. I mean the local commune of Prud.

21 Q. Thank you. Okay. That's clarified things. Now, please continue

22 in your account.

23 A. Then we convened a meeting. In fact, we scheduled a meeting to be

24 held in Struke to clear up this matter and see why it is necessary to have

25 a checkpoint in Prud. At that meeting, the representatives of the

Page 8221

1 population of Struke stated that they had reason to fear that somebody

2 from Croatia might come and carry out a sabotage action. As for us from

3 the local commune, they said they were not afraid of us and they didn't

4 think that we could do something like that, whereas we, on our part, gave

5 them assurances that no danger is emanating from us and we will never do

6 anything.

7 Q. Thank you. First of all, can you tell us the approximate date or

8 time of this particular meeting that you've just been describing.

9 A. That meeting was held on the 29th, around noon, I believe, 11.00

10 or 12.00.

11 Q. 29th of what month, what year?

12 A. 29th February 1992.

13 Q. Thank you. And where was the meeting held?

14 A. In Struke, in a privately owned house.

15 Q. Thank you. And the people who were attending the meeting, were

16 they members of the local commune of Struke and Prud?

17 A. Members of the local commune of Prud attended, whereas Struke did

18 not have a local commune. They were part of the local commune of Dubica.

19 Q. Thank you. Very well. Were the opposite parties, so to speak,

20 members of the local commune of Dubica who were attending?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Was it your understanding that the meeting was to be

23 attended by primarily representatives of local communes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Local people discussing a local issue: Was that to be the make-up

Page 8222

1 of the meeting?

2 A. Yes, that's the way it was conceived.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, I wonder whether the witness would

5 be able to tell us where the checkpoints were located. Were they around

6 the perimeter of Struke and Prud taken together, or was there some type of

7 demarcation line with checkpoints between Struke and Prud proper?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

9 Q. Witness, the inquiry by the Chamber is basically as to the

10 location of the proposed checkpoints. Can you tell us or give us any idea

11 of where it was proposed that these checkpoints would be placed?

12 A. Until then, there were no checkpoints.

13 Q. Yes. I understand that. But was there any proposal that they be

14 placed at specific locations, locations that you were aware of or that

15 representatives of the Prud local commune were aware of, or is it the case

16 that they were simply discussing the establishment of checkpoints without

17 details as to where they might be put up?

18 A. Yes. There was talk about putting up one checkpoint, one single,

19 in Struke.

20 Q. Where?

21 A. And I don't know the exact location.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, at the meeting, did any other uninvited guests

23 appear?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

25 MR. PANTELIC: This question should be rephrased. It's calling

Page 8223

1 for speculation how this witness can know whether the guest is invited or

2 uninvited. So it's a matter -- uninvited.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: It's also on oxymoron. I don't suppose a guest can

4 be uninvited.


6 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll rephrase the question.

7 Q. Did anybody appear at the meeting whom you did not expect to see?

8 A. At some point towards the end of the meeting, Mr. Simic appeared,

9 along with Mr. Tadic, Mr. Rajko Djuric.

10 Q. Thank you. I just ask you this: Mr. Simic, what is the first

11 name of the Mr. Simic that you refer to?

12 A. Dr. Blagoje Simic.

13 Q. Thank you. And the Tadic that you've referred to, is that

14 Mr. Miroslav Tadic whom you identified earlier?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, the other man that you mentioned, Rajko Djuric,

17 did he have a nickname?

18 A. Yes. His nickname was Truman, and he was from Donja Dubica.

19 Q. Do you know anything about the political affiliations of those

20 three people?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What were they?

23 A. Rajko Djuric was a member of the SDS. Dr. Blagoje Simic was a

24 member of the SDS. And I'm not sure about Miroslav Tadic, which party he

25 belonged to at that time.

Page 8224

1 Q. You qualify that. You don't know which party he was a member of

2 at that time. Did you ever know him to be a member of any party at any

3 time? If you don't know, say so.

4 A. He used to be a member of the SKJ, which is the League of

5 Communists of Yugoslavia.

6 Q. Thank you. All right. Now, you said that these were unexpected

7 arrivals. Can you tell the Chamber if any of them addressed the meeting

8 of these two communes?

9 A. Yes. Dr. Simic addressed those of us present.

10 Q. What announcements or utterances were made?

11 A. Dr. Simic took the floor, greeted us, and said that he had just

12 left another meeting or session where the Serbian municipality of Bosanski

13 Samac was proclaimed, and that municipality encompassed all the villages

14 of Bosanski Samac municipality with a Serb population, as well as the

15 villages of Odzak municipality, namely, Donja Dubica, Novi Grad, Struke,

16 and Trnjak. Only Struke and Trnjak were part of Donja Dubica at the

17 time. In fact, the villages from the Odzak municipality were joining this

18 new entity, this new Serb municipality.

19 Q. Yes. Now, had you gone to the meeting intending to discuss

20 anything other than the establishment of checkpoints?

21 A. No. We did not intend to discuss anything else.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Can the witness be shown P11, please.

23 Perhaps for the sake of ease of understanding the evidence the English

24 version could be put on the ELMO and the witness could read from the

25 B/C/S, unless the Chamber -- members of the Tribunal -- sorry, the Chamber

Page 8225

1 have their own copies. I don't know if you do. Then perhaps it could be

2 put on the ELMO.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we can have it on the ELMO, please.


5 Q. Now, witness, that document speaks for itself. It proclaims

6 itself to be a decision on the establishment of the Serbian municipality

7 of Bosanski Samac and the Serbian municipality of Pelagicevo in the

8 process of being established. Do you see that?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. First of all, can you recall if Mr. Blagoje Simic made reference

11 to Serbian municipalities of Pelagicevo, or is it that your memory only

12 tells you he spoke about the Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac?

13 A. No, I don't recall anything about Pelagicevo.

14 Q. Thank you. Cast your eye over Article 2 and the names of the

15 settlements that are listed there. And once you have done that, can you

16 tell us if they were settlements mentioned by Mr. Blagoje Simic.

17 A. Yes, he did mention that. He mentioned Novi Grad and Donja

18 Dubica.

19 Q. And what about the others that are listed there? Did he mention

20 those?

21 A. No, he didn't mention them.

22 Q. Thank you. And would you turn to the second page of the

23 document. It is dated the 29th of February, 1992 and apparently signed by

24 one Ilija Ristic. Do you know Ilija Ristic?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 8226

1 Q. Who was he in April of 1992?

2 A. He was a veterinarian doctor. He worked at the veterinarian

3 station of Bosanski Samac, veterinarian clinic.

4 Q. Thank you. I'm done with that document.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Mr. Usher.

6 Q. Did anyone speak to him about the rearrangements of

7 municipalities, challenge him on it? By that I mean the assembled local

8 commune delegates.

9 A. They did.

10 Q. What did they say?

11 A. I specifically addressed Rajko Djuric, not Simic.

12 Q. What did you say?

13 A. I asked how they intended to link up with Samac municipality,

14 since between Donja Dubica and Samac my home village, Prud, is located. I

15 asked him how they intended to establish the link with Samac municipality,

16 and he answered that they were planning to do it via Struke and the Bosna

17 River. They were either going to build a bridge or organise a ferry

18 service or something like that. And it was precisely there that they

19 wanted to put up a checkpoint.

20 Q. Thank you. In addition to the rearranging of municipalities for

21 Bosanski Samac and Odzak, was there any talk of the municipality of

22 Bosanski Brod?

23 A. Not at that meeting. There were other meetings where it was

24 discussed. Yes. Serb villages from Odzak municipality were mentioned.

25 Q. Okay. Let's be clear so that we understand what you're saying,

Page 8227

1 okay? First of all, I'll go back to my original question, and that's

2 this: At the meeting - this is on the 29th of February, the one that

3 Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Truman attended - was there any talk by any one

4 of those three men regarding possible rearrangements of municipal lines

5 vis-a-vis Bosanski Brod?

6 A. On that occasion it was mentioned that villages bordering on

7 Bosanski Brod, Serb villages, that is, will be joining Bosanski Brod

8 municipality, while villages bordering on Modrica would be joining Modrica

9 municipality.

10 Q. And which of the three men made that announcement?

11 A. Rajko Djuric made the announcement, and Dr. Simic did not deny any

12 of it. He also confirmed it.

13 Q. By that last part of your answer, I take it Dr. Blagoje Simic

14 confirmed what Djuric, or Truman, had said regarding Bosanski Brod.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did he actually discuss that particular matter, by that I mean

17 Blagoje Simic, did he actually talk about what would be happening to

18 Bosanski Brod?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were his comments, therefore, limited to confirming what Truman

21 had said?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Was there any reference or talk made to the JNA, the

24 Yugoslav army, at that meeting?

25 A. Yes. There was always talk about that between the local communes.

Page 8228

1 Q. Thank you. What I'm particularly interested in is this: Did any

2 of the three men who arrived - Dr. Blagoje Simic, Truman, or Miroslav

3 Tadic - refer or talk about the JNA at that meeting?

4 A. Yes, they did.

5 Q. What was said?

6 A. Dr. Simic said that the JNA would enter the Serb villages, whether

7 the others liked it or not.

8 Q. Can you recall how he -- how it was that he came to be making this

9 statement, how the utterance came about, how it arose in the context of

10 what was happening at the meeting?

11 A. He said during his address, when he mentioned the proclamation of

12 the Serb municipality of Bosanski Samac, he said that the JNA would

13 protect the Serb population and enter Serb villages, and this was because

14 the municipality of Odzak resisted the JNA presence in these areas.

15 Q. What was he talking about, as far as you were aware, when he

16 referred to the municipality of Odzak resisting JNA pressure?

17 A. At that meeting he just held a speech and he didn't say anything

18 else. The meeting lost all its meaning after the speech, and it was

19 completed. It was finished after we found out that the Serb municipality

20 of Bosanski Samac had been proclaimed. That was the first time we heard

21 of that event.

22 Q. What exactly do you mean when you say "The meeting lost its

23 meaning after the speech"? What do you mean by that?

24 A. We were taken aback. These settlements didn't belong to the

25 municipality of Odzak any more. That was new information for us.

Page 8229

1 Q. Was there much talking going on after this announcement had been

2 made?

3 A. No.

4 Q. How would you describe the tone of the meeting following the

5 completion of these announcements?

6 A. Dr. Simic held his speech. They stayed a little bit longer and

7 then they left. So they just gave this announcement to us and that was

8 it.

9 Q. Did the three of them leave together?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you ever have a chance to discuss the issue of the setting up

12 of checkpoints again?

13 A. It wasn't really demanded, not with regard to setting up

14 checkpoints.

15 Q. Up until that time, you had not heard of these new plans for

16 redistribution of municipal lines. Following that visit, can you tell us

17 if these plans became well known amongst the population in Prud and in the

18 surrounding villages and towns?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I think the words "plans" which

22 were used by my learned friend, according to the fact that this witness

23 just said, I'm speaking about the event in this village Struke, is not

24 appropriate. In fact, maybe we could speak about the decision or the fact

25 that it was an announcement. But the plans are a little bit -- could be

Page 8230

1 dubious and could be two-folded or it's not so certain. I mean, it's not

2 in dispute that this decision which is actually the Exhibit P11 was made.

3 So let's be more precise. Because otherwise the Prosecution might through

4 these questions create a theory which is absolutely wrong of course from

5 the side of the Defence that there were certain plans of dividing this

6 area. So if we are speaking strictly about the exhibits, if we are

7 speaking about the documents, then we should use more precise words.

8 Thank you.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: It's difficult to think of anything that would

11 require more planning than a decision to carve up municipalities, if Your

12 Honours please, almost beyond comprehension. It matters not, I submit, if

13 Mr. Pantelic is happy with announcement, pronouncement, proclamation.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Announcement of the decision.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Announcement of the decision is fine by me.

16 Q. Was there any -- I withdraw that. Can you tell us if the

17 announcements of Dr. Blagoje Simic, or ones that he conveyed to you at

18 that meeting, became common knowledge in Prud and the surrounding towns

19 and villages?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Incidentally, you heard the objection of Defence counsel that

22 there is no -- the word "plan" was inaccurate. Did you hear anyone

23 referring to -- in the community, I mean - referring to the announcements

24 as plans for the future, plans to recarve, redesignate municipal lines?

25 A. Not before.

Page 8231

1 Q. Not before what?

2 A. Before that day when I heard about the formation of the Serbian

3 municipality of Samac.

4 Q. Thank you. What about after that day? Was there discussion in

5 the community, the town of Prud and surroundings towns in Bosanski Samac

6 and the municipality of Bosanski Samac of intentions to carve up or

7 redesignate municipal lines?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you ever speak to people about these plans?

10 A. I didn't speak to anybody, but I heard it from others that they

11 did talk amongst themselves.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, before the events of the 16th and 17th of April

13 1992, but after this meeting that you've just bee describing at Struke,

14 did you ever hear of Mr. Blagoje Simic addressing or attending any other

15 meetings where this sort of topic was discussed?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you identify the meeting that you heard that he attended? By

18 identify, I mean can you give us an idea of about when this meeting was,

19 or where it was held?

20 A. I think this meeting was held after the one that I was at. I

21 can't remember the time. It might have been March of 1992. I think this

22 was an inter-party meeting between representatives of SDS, HDZ. I'm not

23 sure if the representatives of the SDA were present as well.

24 Q. Now, just to be clear, you are reporting now -- making reports of

25 a meeting that you personally did not attend; is that correct?

Page 8232

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So the evidence that you're about to give is based on matters that

3 you have been told; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In that case, I'd like you to identify your sources of

6 information. First of all, did any individuals report to you or tell you

7 or describe to you this meeting?

8 A. Yes. There were more persons that told me what was being

9 discussed at that meeting.

10 Q. Can you give us the names of these people who told you and

11 described to you the meeting, and also their positions, I mean political

12 positions, if they held any.

13 A. At this meeting, the following people were present: Mato Nujic,

14 president of the municipality of Bosanski Samac; Mato Madzarevic. He

15 worked at the municipality. He was responsible for one section, for one

16 department. Filip Evic, the president of the HDZ; Blazanovic. I can't

17 remember his first name. He's from Grebnice. Slavko Matic, secretary of

18 the HDZ. I don't know if anyone else was present, but I remember these

19 men.

20 Q. Thank you. And they're all, I take it, Croats and all members of

21 the HDZ?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Did they all describe to you and tell you what

24 happened at the meeting?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8233

1 Q. Did they all essentially provide you with the same account of

2 events at the meeting?

3 A. Yes. Everybody was there when they were recounting this.

4 Q. That's not my question. My question is this: Did they all

5 provide you with the same account of how things had transpired, taken

6 place, at the meeting?

7 A. Yes, they did.

8 Q. Now, apart from reports from these particular individuals who were

9 present at the meeting, was there a degree of common knowledge in the

10 community as to the fact of the meeting and what it taken place at the

11 meeting? In other words, was it widely known throughout your community

12 and the surrounding towns and villages?

13 A. Yes. Part of the discussion became widely known.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, what did you hear took place at the meeting?

15 A. I heard from these gentlemen present here that Mr. Blagoje Simic

16 had told them that Prud was joining Odzak --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

18 A. I heard from those gentleman not present here. Part of Bazik,

19 Domaljevac, were going to join Orasje, whereas other settlements would

20 remain within Bosanski Samac.


22 Q. Was there any discussion as to what might happen to Croatian

23 villages in these newly designated municipalities?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Yes. Please continue.

Page 8234

1 A. Yes. They asked Mr. Simic what was going to happen to the other

2 Croatian settlements that were to remain in the municipality of Samac,

3 what he intended to do with them. And then he said that they would

4 guarantee them security to -- they would guarantee security to whoever

5 wanted to remain, and those people that did not want to remain there could

6 exchange their property and everything else.

7 Q. Thank you. And was that last remark apparently attributed to

8 Mr. Blagoje Simic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, I wonder whether you could seek a

12 clarification from the witness, page 26, line 3, re: "Those that did not

13 want to remain there could exchange their property and everything else."

14 Could you find out what the witness exactly means by that?

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

16 Q. Witness, I appreciate that you're telling the Chamber reports of

17 what other people told you and you weren't at the meeting, but the inquiry

18 of the Chamber is that can you provide any clarification as to what you

19 mean by having said that Mr. Blagoje Simic apparently said that people

20 could remain in the new municipalities or could exchange their property

21 and everything else? Have you got -- was there any explanation given to

22 you as to what that meant: "exchanging their property and everything

23 else"?

24 A. It wasn't explained, but at that time rumours were already

25 abounding about the corridor, and so these areas had to remain in the same

Page 8235

1 municipality. But whoever didn't like that had to leave. Whoever

2 disagreed with that kind of a solution could choose to stay, to swap their

3 property, or to sell it.

4 Q. Okay. Now, you've mention that had a number of HDZ men reported

5 to you what had happened at the meeting and what Blagoje Simic had said at

6 the meeting, and so on. Did those HDZ personalities that you mentioned

7 explain to you what Blagoje Simic had meant by saying that people could

8 remain in the new municipalities or exchange their property and everything

9 else? If they didn't tell you what he meant, that's fine, but we just

10 want to know, if he did provide you with an explanation, please tell us.

11 A. They didn't tell me.

12 Q. Did you have in your own mind an idea of what it meant?

13 A. In my personal opinion, this meant that there could be clashes.

14 Q. Can you be a little more precise? What exactly do you mean by

15 that, and why did you think that?

16 A. I knew that these Croatian villages did not want to stay in that

17 kind of a municipality of Bosanski Samac.

18 Q. Was it that that you thought might lead to conflict?

19 A. Well, I didn't think about those issues at that time.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm fearful that if I plumb

22 this topic any further we'll be moving into real speculation. It would be

23 better if I left it.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It depends on what type of evidence you want

25 to elicit from the witness.

Page 8236

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you, if Your Honours please.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Paradzik, I want to move on now to a completely different

3 topic, and that is the events of the night of the 16th and 17th of April,

4 1992. On that night, were you at home in Prud?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. During the night did you hear the sound of gunfire and firearms?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you wake up and go out and investigate the situation?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did men gather in the centre of Prud?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. About how many?

13 A. About 200.

14 Q. Were they armed?

15 A. Not all of them.

16 Q. Were some of them armed; and if so, with what?

17 A. They had -- those of them that were armed brought their own

18 personal weapons.

19 Q. What sort of weapons were they in the main? Hunting rifles,

20 Kalashnikovs, AK-47s? What sort of weaponry are we talking about?

21 A. Hunting rifles and other types of rifles.

22 Q. You were a community leader, you're in the local commune. Can you

23 tell us if there were any plans that had been laid as to what to do in

24 precisely just such a situation, organisational plans of how to respond to

25 this sort of crisis?

Page 8237

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was the plan?

3 A. To evacuate women and children to Croatia, the Republic of

4 Croatia.

5 Q. Thank you. Evacuate women and children from where?

6 A. From Prud. At that time it was already night. So from Prud and

7 from Samac, if anybody came from Samac.

8 Q. I see. So the plans that were afoot or already laid included

9 evacuation of women and children from Bosanski Samac as well, if they

10 came?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And was the only way to come from Bosanski Samac to Prud across a

13 small bridge across the River Bosna?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Would that be an appropriate moment, if

16 Your Honours please, to break for the afternoon break?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll take our break until 1615 hours.

18 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution continues.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Q. Now, you were telling us about the events on the night of the 16th

23 and 17th of April and the plans that had been laid in the event of trouble

24 and that they included evacuation. Did the plans include or call for any

25 sort of armed intervention on the part of the men who were gathered there?

Page 8238

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was that?

3 A. In the event of an attack on the village.

4 Q. Did you plan to defend yourselves?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Do you know a gentleman named Namik Suljic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who was he, and was he gathered with the other men there, in Prud,

9 I mean?

10 A. He was on the reserve force of the police, and his position was

11 that of deputy commander of the police force.

12 Q. Thank you. During the course of the evening, did any -- I mean by

13 that during the night, when it was still dark - did anyone try to cross

14 over from Bosanski Samac to Prud?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did people try and cross over during the day?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were there more people crossing or attempting to cross the bridge

19 during the day than at night?

20 A. Mainly during the day.

21 Q. Thank you. Was there any fire directed towards the bridge during

22 the night, weapons fire, I mean?

23 A. Occasionally.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown the photographs -- I think

25 they're P14 or P14A. In any event, my intention is to show the unlabelled

Page 8239

1 photographs, whichever exhibit it is. Perhaps the Court can assist me by

2 telling me which is the unlabelled version.

3 THE REGISTRAR: It is P14A, Mr. Di Fazio.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Can that be produced to the witness?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Which photograph exactly? I'm sorry.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry. F34 and F35. And perhaps, Mr. Usher,

7 F34 could be shown first on the ELMO.

8 Q. Witness, just have a look at that photograph and tell us what it

9 depicts.

10 A. It's the destroyed bridge between Prud and Bosanski Samac.

11 Q. Thank you. As we look at the photograph, are we looking from the

12 direction of Bosanski Samac and towards Prud?

13 A. Looking from the direction of Bosanski Samac towards Prud.

14 Q. And the river that we can see is the Bosna?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. In the background of the photograph you see a line of

17 trees, and you can't really see any buildings. Is Prud to be found just

18 past the line of trees, and is it obscured by the trees in that

19 photograph?

20 A. Yes, it is obscured by the trees.

21 Q. Thank you. Just one more question. What sort of bridge was it in

22 April 1992? You can't really tell from looking at that photograph what

23 sort of bridge it was.

24 A. It was a one-way bridge, a bridge for one-way traffic, with

25 traffic lights. It was not two-way. I think its carrying capacity was

Page 8240

1 two and a half tonnes.

2 Q. I see. So you could get across it in a car, could you?

3 A. Yes, you could.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: I've finished with that photograph. And,

6 Mr. Usher, on reflection, I don't need to use the other photograph. Thank

7 you.

8 Q. Yes. I was asking you about any weapons fire directed towards the

9 bridge. Was there any directed towards the bridge during the day, that

10 is, during the day of the 17th?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What sort of weaponry was trained against the bridge on that day,

13 during the day?

14 A. Fire was opened from machine-guns, snipers, and tanks.

15 Q. Was the bridge eventually destroyed by tank fire?

16 A. It was damaged, not completely destroyed.

17 Q. Where was the fire coming from, the fire directed towards the

18 bridge?

19 A. We assumed that the tank was located on the separation line at the

20 entrance to Samac, and that's from where fire was opened. Several

21 kilometres away from the bridge.

22 Q. Yes, I understand. What I'm interested in is this: You've --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Just a matter of clarification of

25 transcript, because here it said "separation line." Actually, what I know

Page 8241

1 about Bosanski Samac is that it is a company named Separacija. There were

2 no particular - on 17 or something - like separation line. So it's

3 actually a company called Separacija, separation.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. Mr. Di Fazio can you clarify that?

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks. Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Q. You've mentioned that this tank that was directing its fire

7 towards the bridge was located on a line. What sort of line was it? How

8 would you describe that line where the tank was?

9 A. The tank was in the compound of Separacija. That was the only

10 place from which you could hit the bridge.

11 Q. Is Separacija a company or an institution?

12 A. Yes. It was an enterprise dealing with gravel.

13 Q. Thank you. I'm not actually terribly interested in where the

14 weapons were based. What I'm interested in most of all is this: Was the

15 weapons fire, machine-gun, tank fire, whatever sort of fire that was

16 directed towards the bridge coming from the Bosanski Samac side or from

17 the Prud side? That's what I want to know.

18 A. From the side of Bosanski Samac.

19 Q. Thank you. Did the damage to the bridge during the day of the

20 17th of April 1992 bring a halt to the flow of people across the bridge?

21 A. After the bridge was hit, nobody attempted to cross it any more.

22 Q. I have described it as a flow of people across a bridge, but that

23 may not be correct. Can you tell us what the true situation is? Were

24 there a lot of people crossing? Were people coming across in dribs and

25 drabs? Was it a constant flow? And do you have any idea of numbers of

Page 8242

1 people who got across the bridge?

2 A. I don't have a number for you. Anybody who was able to reach the

3 bridge would cross it. People crossed over in groups, and this continued

4 until 2.00 on the 17th, after which time it was no longer possible because

5 the bridge was constantly under fire.

6 Q. What was the ethnic background of people who were crossing the

7 bridge?

8 A. They were mostly Muslims, Bosniaks, and a smaller number of

9 Croats.

10 Q. Did you ever see anything on the bridge that could attract fire,

11 for example, gun emplacements, soldiers' nests, that sort of thing?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. Now cast your mind back to the events of the night,

14 during the night, and after you had woken up and gone into the centre of

15 the town. Did anyone there in Prud have a radio?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who had a radio?

18 A. Namik Suljic. After the police withdrew from the bridge, he came

19 to Prud and left a radio, or rather, a Motorola, on the premises of the

20 community centre.

21 Q. Thank you. First of all, before we get into the radio, you say

22 that police withdrew from the bridge. What do you mean by that?

23 A. I mean the reserve police. They had been on the bridge between

24 Samac and Prud and they had come from the territory of Samac.

25 Q. What sort of numbers of reserve police are we talking about?

Page 8243

1 A. It was one shift's worth of people, whether it was two, three, or

2 four, I don't know.

3 Q. Thank you. But that sort of order of numbers: Two or three or

4 four?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thanks. And Namik Suljic, was he one of these policemen who was

7 guarding the bridge, or who had been guarding the bridge?

8 A. He wasn't guarding the bridge. He was a commander and he crossed

9 the bridge as a commander, in that capacity.

10 Q. The policemen who had been on the bridge, was it their function to

11 guard the bridge?

12 A. I don't know. They were not able to -- they were not capable of

13 guarding it. I don't know what they were doing. At any rate, there were

14 threats that the bridge could be blown up, that mines could be laid.

15 Q. In the preceding weeks and months, had it been customary to keep

16 policemen posted on that bridge at night?

17 A. I don't know when permanent duty service was introduced, but at a

18 certain point, standing guard duty was introduced on the bridge between

19 Prud and Samac and between Slavonski and Bosanski Samac, on the Sava

20 River. But I wouldn't be able to tell you the date.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, you said that Namik Suljic left a Motorola radio

22 on the premises at the community centre. Were you also there at the

23 community centre?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were there other men gathered there?

Page 8244

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was the Motorola radio functioning? Was it operational? Was it

3 picking up signals, receiving signals?

4 A. Yes, it was.

5 Q. Was someone changing frequency on the radio?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you ever hear the sound of the voice of any of the defendants

8 on the radio that night?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Whose voice did you hear?

11 A. I heard the voice of Simo Zaric.

12 Q. What was he saying?

13 A. He was communicating through the radio, calling seagull, seagull

14 1, 2, and 3. I don't know how many seagulls there were. And he

15 identified himself as The Sea. He was some sort of centre to whom they

16 were responding.

17 Q. I see. So he used code, in effect, referring to himself as "The

18 Sea" and others as a seagull followed by a number?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. From what you can recall, was it apparent conversation in this

21 sense: You could hear someone conversing with The Sea, or Mr. Zaric, and

22 he was replying to that person, in other words, a two-way conversation

23 overheard on radio?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you hear Mr. Zaric say?

Page 8245

1 A. For instance, he would say, "Seagull 1, respond," and when they

2 responded, he would say, "Shift forward," or "forward with your left

3 wing." He would say things like, "Everything under control. How are

4 things coming along?" things like that.

5 Q. Did all of it make sense to you?

6 A. I understood only one thing.

7 Q. Yes?

8 A. When one of the Seagulls responded and said that he could hear

9 columns of tanks moving in Prud, that was the only thing I could make out.

10 Q. Well, how did you greet that assertion over the radio that there

11 were tanks moving through Prud, you being in Prud, after all?

12 A. We thought of it as a lie, because we knew there were no tanks and

13 we knew who he was trying to scare off and intimidate with that sort of

14 claim. And we just laughed.

15 Q. What -- I withdraw that. Is there any doubt in your mind that the

16 voice that you heard was that of Simo Zaric?

17 A. No, no doubt.

18 Q. This was April of 1992. You've said that you've known him for

19 about 30 years. As at April of 1992, how long had you known him? Just

20 think back and do some mental calculations. Use your high school years,

21 if necessary, and tell us about how long you had known him in April of

22 1992.

23 A. Would you care to clarify that?

24 Q. How old were you in 1992? It's about 10 years ago, or it is 10

25 years ago.

Page 8246

1 A. I was 40.

2 Q. How long had you known Simo Zaric at that time? Did you meet him

3 when you were a child, when you were a kid? Did you meet him in your

4 teenage years? Did you meet him as a young man? Can you recall?

5 A. In 1992 I had known him for about -- for more than 20 years.

6 Q. Thank you. You've described various other forms of weaponry that

7 were being used to attack the bridge during the day, tank and machine-gun

8 fire. Did you ever see who was firing at the bridge?

9 A. I didn't.

10 Q. Thank you. Prud is now part of the Federation in Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina, is it not?

12 A. It is.

13 Q. Following the events in April of 1992, did you remain in Prud or

14 did you go elsewhere?

15 A. After the fall of Prud in the month of July, I left for Croatia

16 [Realtime transcript read in error "left Croatia"].

17 Q. Before that departure for Croatia, did you have an opportunity to

18 speak to the people who were coming across the bridge and other people who

19 might have escaped from Bosanski Samac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did any of those people ever complain to you of having to wear

22 white armbands?

23 A. Those people that ran away, they didn't have to wear white

24 armbands. Those that were exchanged told us what they had gone through.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio, we have to correct an answer by the

Page 8247

1 witness, line 12. After the fall of Prud in the month of July, I left

2 Croatia. Did he say he left for Croatia?

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe that was -- that's the --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we clarify with the witness?


6 Q. In July, did you leave Prud and go to Croatia?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You told us that the people who were exchanged complained to you

9 of what they had gone through. Did they ever complain to you or describe

10 to you having to wear white armbands?

11 A. I'm not sure. They had some kind of a mark that they had to

12 wear. I don't know if these were white or not. They also had to do

13 forced labour, dig trenches.

14 Q. Did they complain to you of this? That's what I want to know.

15 A. In these conversations, they said that they had been beaten. Some

16 men that were exchanged came with broken ribs. Their teeth had been

17 pulled out. And we believed what they told us.

18 Q. What sort of condition were the people who were exchanged -- what

19 sort of condition were they in, physical condition, I mean?

20 A. They were not all in the same physical condition. Some were in

21 good physical condition but some also came in a very bad condition.

22 Q. During the war, were you ever arrested and tortured yourself?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions.

Page 8248

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination.

2 Yes, Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to have only a few

4 questions, Your Honours.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Paradzik. I am attorney at

7 law Novak Lukic. I will ask you several questions on behalf of Miroslav

8 Tadic's Defence.

9 You described today this meeting on the 29th of February, 1992,

10 and you mentioned that Miroslav Tadic also came to this meeting. I am

11 interested in the following: Did Tadic say anything at this meeting?

12 A. He did not say anything.

13 Q. Did he participate in the discussions at all?

14 A. No. He did not say a word. Tadic drove them there.

15 Q. Did you see them being driven there by him? You gave a statement

16 to the Prosecution in 1995. Do you remember that?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. You read -- you were read this statement and you signed it; is

19 that correct? Do you remember it?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. The question on page 40,

23 line 11, was not answered by the witness.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: No, it wasn't.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Actually, the witness nodded by his head, and so my

Page 8249

1 colleague probably --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: He did ask whether he saw him being driven. So if

3 counsel can ask the question again so that we get the answer recorded.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Okay.

5 Q. Did you personally see Tadic driving Mr. Simic and the other

6 gentlemen?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. So I asked you the following. I asked you about the statement

9 that you made in 1995. You said that you remember signing it.

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Did you take another look at this statement again before you came

12 to testify here? If you did not, do you remember the details that you

13 mentioned at that time to the Prosecutor?

14 A. I remember the details.

15 Q. In this statement, when you described this event that took place

16 on the 29th of February of 1992, you said -- you only mentioned the name

17 of Blagoje Simic to the OTP. You did not mention the name of Miroslav

18 Tadic. Do you remember that?

19 A. I did mention it. It might be the case that it didn't go into the

20 record.

21 Q. Do you remember how long they were at the meeting?

22 A. Up to an hour.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel? Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

Page 8250

1 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, before I start with my

2 cross-examination, let me -- thank you. Let me try to clarify one matter

3 with regard to the translation of word "speculation," because I noticed

4 even from the side of the witnesses appearing prior before this Trial

5 Chamber, and also from my colleague's side and the defendant's side, that

6 the translation of this word, "speculation" in B/C/S language is not

7 proper. Usually the Translation Unit use the word "spekulacija," which in

8 our meaning, in B/C/S language means that someone wants to speculate with

9 money, with, you know, undercover, dishonestly and stuff like that. My

10 suggestion would be that the word "speculation" from now on should be

11 translated in, I will say in our language "predvidjanje pretpostavka,"

12 like the meaning of some kind of prediction or something like that in

13 narrow sense. Because exact translation word, English word "speculation"

14 into the B/C/S word "spekulacija" is absolutely confusing, even for

15 witnesses, they made certain reactions prior in I think November/December

16 last year. Then for my colleagues and for defendants too. Maybe we could

17 hear something from the Translation Unit.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: May I say something about that?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I wanted to allow the translation to be

20 completed. Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got a problem with that. First of all, I

22 don't speak B/C/S, and as far as I'm aware, the Chamber doesn't speak

23 B/C/S, and I don't think that Mr. Pantelic can restrict the interpretation

24 of language in any particular way. The word "speculation" of course means

25 speculation in the sense of wondering about something and also gambling

Page 8251

1 and it has much the same meaning in English as well. All words have

2 different meanings. They're rich in meaning. The proper job for

3 interpretation is in the interpreter's booth. That's the place for the

4 job to be done and they will do the best that they can. If language and

5 meaning is not coming across accurately, in the view of Mr. Pantelic, then

6 he is in the best position to take care of that. He is in the best

7 position to simply ask the witness a question and clarify anything that he

8 wants to, and he's got the weapon of cross-examination to do that if he

9 wants to. So I suggest that we just go ahead in the way that we've been

10 going on thus far and leave interpretation to the professionals, and

11 anything that -- any further added meaning that Mr. Pantelic wants to add

12 to what a witness has said, he's free to do so by the use of question.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber doesn't think that there is

14 any need to vary our procedures. We have competent interpreters, and if

15 there is any problem, the correct procedures will be followed. And also,

16 clarification can always be sought from the witness, so that the evidence

17 given by the witness is correctly translated and is also properly

18 understood by either counsel or the witness, or the defendants, whoever is

19 having a problem. So can you just go ahead with your cross-examination.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. It was just my suggestion with

21 regard to the benefit of this trial proceeding, nothing more. I didn't

22 give any orders or stuff like that. Well, I can proceed, of course.

23 Thank you.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Paradzik, good afternoon. My name is

Page 8252

1 Pantelic. I am the Defence counsel of Mr. Blagoje Simic.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. Let's try to clear up certain things before we start. I think

4 this might have been a misunderstanding. We might have not been focused

5 enough. When asked by my colleague of the Prosecution, you said that you

6 became a member of the HDZ a few months before April 1992. Do you

7 remember this?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. This topic is not very relevant, but we should clear up these

10 issues because of the transcript. In the notes given to us by the

11 Prosecution that are based on their interview with you, you said that you

12 became a member of HDZ in 1990, before the elections, very soon after the

13 party was founded. Do you remember saying this?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I have a suggestion. Why don't you finish -- why don't you wait

16 until I finish with the question, make a pause, and then answer my

17 question.

18 So what is true: You became a member in 1990 or in 1992?

19 A. I considered myself a member since the multiparty elections.

20 About 98 per cent of the Croatian population voted for the HDZ. But I

21 became an official member in 1992.

22 Q. Thank you. That explains the situation very well. You were

23 vice-president of the local commune; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The local commune of Prud is one of the local communes that

Page 8253

1 altogether create the municipality of Bosanski Samac; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you please tell me who was the president of the local

4 commune of Prud at the same time when you were the vice-president?

5 A. Mato Grgic.

6 Q. Were there any Serbs who held positions in the local commune in

7 Prud?

8 A. I don't think there were any.

9 Q. If you don't remember that, that's okay.

10 A. One old man from Struke would come to attend the meetings of the

11 local commune sometimes.

12 Q. I'm talking about people holding official positions in the local

13 commune.

14 A. Well, this was self-organised. It wasn't rigid.

15 Q. You had a president, a vice-president, you also had a secretary;

16 is that correct?

17 A. We had a treasurer. We did not have a secretary, just a

18 treasurer.

19 Q. They were all Croats?

20 A. Yes, all of them.

21 Q. You knew Mr. Blagoje Simic by sight; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I mean you weren't family friends?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You didn't go out together to restaurants?

Page 8254

1 A. No.

2 Q. You know him only as a humanitarian, a doctor, who was helping

3 your mother?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You were a hunter?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You had a carbine?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. If you put a site onto a carbine, it becomes a sniper; is that

10 correct?

11 A. I don't know what you can put on it. You can put all kinds of

12 things on it.

13 Q. But as a hunter, you know, if you're hunting large game, if you

14 put a sight on it, that's called a sniper; is that correct?

15 A. I owned a carbine without a sniper, and I had a licence.

16 Q. It's a very simple question. I'm asking you, as an expert, a

17 hunter, if you put an optical device onto a carbine, is it then called a

18 sniper? I'm not asking you if you had one; I'm just asking you if you

19 know about this.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. As a member of the HDZ, you were in touch with your

22 colleagues from the HDZ in Samac. You mentioned the president of the HDZ,

23 some of the other functionaries. You were in constant contact with the

24 high-ranking officials of HDZ; is that correct?

25 A. Yes. I was occasionally in touch with them.

Page 8255

1 Q. How would you describe this contact? What does "occasionally"

2 mean?

3 A. The majority of them held both party and municipality positions,

4 and they would come to the meetings in the local commune.

5 Q. Could you please be specific. How often?

6 A. They did not come very often.

7 Q. Let me help you. Did they come between once or five times a

8 month?

9 A. They wouldn't even come once a month. They visited all local

10 communes, and it depended on when it was our turn, if there was a problem,

11 perhaps.

12 Q. Did you go to Samac to meet with the representatives of the HDZ?

13 A. The local commune did not have much contact with the leadership of

14 the municipality. It didn't happen as much as you think.

15 Q. If you could please listen to me carefully. These questions

16 aren't difficult. You, as a member of the HDZ, how often did you see the

17 president of the HDZ and other party members in Samac? It's a very simple

18 question. How often did you have party meetings?

19 A. I was not the president of the HDZ in my settlement, nor was I the

20 president of the local commune. Those people were usually called to

21 attend the meetings that were held.

22 Q. You are not answering my questions directly. You, as a member of

23 the HDZ, had certain party meetings within your party; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How often were these meetings?

Page 8256

1 A. These meetings -- well, I really can't remember that.

2 Q. Did they take place once a month --

3 THE INTERPRETER: A week. Interpreter correction. Did they take

4 place once a week?

5 A. No. The local commune had more meetings than the party. The same

6 people were both in the local commune and in the party.

7 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Who was the president of HDZ in Samac?

9 A. Filip Evic.

10 Q. Who was the president of the municipality of Bosanski Samac before

11 April 17th?

12 A. Mato November Nujic.

13 Q. Was Mato Nujic a member of the HDZ?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What was his position?

16 A. He was the President of the municipality.

17 Q. In the HDZ, what was his function?

18 A. He was a member.

19 Q. Just a rank and file member, or did he hold a position: A

20 president, a treasurer? He was president of the municipality, after all.

21 A. He was just a member and he was appointed by the party.

22 Q. Where did Mato Nujic live?

23 A. In Prud.

24 Q. Did you live in Prud?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8257

1 Q. How often did you see him?

2 A. Since we lived very close, I would see him very often.

3 Q. Would you talk about political issues?

4 A. He didn't talk about things -- about these things with me. I

5 wasn't high-ranking.

6 Q. Let's move on to another topic, but we'll come back to this one.

7 What do you know about the founding of the Crisis Staff of the

8 parties of SDA and HDZ that was created in Prud? This was a joint Crisis

9 Staff of these two parties.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I object to the question, if Your Honours please.

11 It assumes that there was such a Crisis Staff founded and that it came

12 into existence. The witness hasn't said that. If my learned friend wants

13 to establish that, he's free to do so, but he should do so before he asks

14 him what he knows about the founding of that body. The witness might say

15 there never was such a body. He might therefore then know nothing about

16 it. He has to establish a grounding before he can go on to this question.

17 MR. PANTELIC: As usual, this is coaching of the witness, Your

18 Honour. I mean, so big history about the simple question. I will

19 rephrase my question.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think if you rephrase your question. But

21 otherwise, I really didn't see anything wrong, because the witness could

22 have explained.

23 MR. PANTELIC: His personal knowledge simply is that.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: What he knows about any of the matters that you

25 asked in this question.

Page 8258

1 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely.

2 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Paradzik, do you know of this mixed,

3 joint Crisis Staff of HDZ and SDA?

4 A. As far as I know, there was never such a body.

5 Q. Did you ever see Sulejman Tihic, the president of the SDA, coming

6 to meetings in Prud?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How about Marko Bozanovic?

9 A. I also did not see Marko Bozanovic.

10 Q. Did you see Alija Fitozovic?

11 A. Sometimes I would see him in Prud, but I don't know of any

12 meetings.

13 Q. So what you're trying to say is the following: There was just one

14 local organisation in Prud, established by the HDZ, whose function was

15 defence. Is that correct?

16 A. This was -- you can call it self-organisation of the people. HDZ

17 did not organise this. People were members of the HDZ. But when it was

18 about defence, this was not just a one-sided, one-party attempt.

19 Q. Let's help the Trial Chamber a little bit. Prud is a part of

20 Bosanski Samac; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What's the population?

23 A. 1.200.

24 Q. So there were no Serbs there really?

25 A. Very few: There were few.

Page 8259

1 Q. Say five?

2 A. Part of Struke belongs to Prud. I wouldn't really know.

3 Q. Were there any Muslims in Prud?

4 A. I think two.

5 Q. So we would agree easily that this organisation, this organisation

6 established by the citizens organising themselves, was actually a Croatian

7 organisation of self-organised citizens; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, Mr. Pantelic may find it

10 useful, and the Chamber may find it useful to get clarification of that

11 answer, otherwise I'll have to do it in re-examination. Croatian, does

12 that mean Croatian in the sense of nationality, or does it mean Croatian

13 in the sense of from the country Croatia? Croatian organisation, does it

14 mean Croatian people or does it mean from the nation, the country, the

15 state, Croatia?

16 MR. PANTELIC: I'll clarify that with the witness.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: When you read it, you just don't know from that.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You can clarify that.


20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Also, excuse me, Mr. Pantelic. Also this might

21 well be correct, but I just want to make sure it is. Page 51, line 2, in

22 response to your question, were there any Muslims in Prud, the answer is:

23 "I think two."

24 MR. PANTELIC: That is the correct word.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

Page 8260

1 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Let's clear this up. I understood you when you said, when we

3 agreed, in fact, about this Croat group of self-organised citizens. You

4 were talking about the ethnicity, not their affiliation to the Croatian

5 state; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. Most of them were Croats, and the place had a majority Croat

7 population. There couldn't have been many other ethnicities represented.

8 MR. PANTELIC: I think it's clear now, Mr. Di Fazio, that it's

9 ethnicity.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to my learned friend for clarifying

11 that. Thank you.

12 MR. PANTELIC: You're welcome.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Paradzik, you know that in the beginning of

14 1992 the Croatian community of Bosnian Posavina was established?

15 A. I don't know about that.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I happened to see on the monitor that

18 we are -- are we in a closed session? I missed this.


20 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I saw that -- there is no transmission

21 and it says that it's --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: No. We are in open session, as far as --

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I knew that we are in open session, but I see

24 on the monitor in front of me, actually, that it says -- oh, no. It's --

25 oh, I'm sorry. I might be mistaken. It's probably computer evidence.

Page 8261

1 Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. All right.

3 Yes, Mr. Pantelic. Proceed.

4 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Are you aware of the fact that representatives of 11

6 municipalities of the Croatian community of Bosnian Posavina attended a

7 meeting at Slavonski Brod in February 1992, a meeting with the Defence

8 minister of Croatia, Martin Spegelj?

9 A. I'm not.

10 Q. Do you know that representatives of these 11 Croat municipalities

11 from Posavina attended, in March, a reception called by Tudjman? Were you

12 there? Did you know that?

13 A. I was an ordinary member. I had absolutely no responsibilities

14 even in the local commune. I wouldn't know about such a thing.

15 Q. But do you have any knowledge about that meeting with the

16 President Tudjman?

17 A. No.

18 Q. As an educated man, Mr. Paradzik, you must know that in the period

19 from January to March 1992, and specifically in end February 1992, in the

20 media and among the parties, a peaceful solution to the Bosnian problem

21 was discussed and there was a meeting in Lisbon to discuss this matter?

22 A. Yes. I read about that meeting.

23 Q. When you read about this, you probably remember that the proposal

24 was to divide Bosnia along some ethnic lines to avoid an internecine

25 conflict in Bosnia. Do you recall that?

Page 8262

1 A. I don't know any details.

2 Q. Do you know that in the end of February 1992, representatives of

3 three parties, which were the ruling parties in Bosnia - the HDZ, the SDS,

4 and the SDA - discussed, even on the local level in Samac, certain aspects

5 of this Lisbon Agreement? Have you heard about that at any of the local

6 meetings you attended? Do you have any knowledge about this?

7 A. Maybe this meeting that I referred to was held precisely in the

8 context you mentioned, but I'm not sure.

9 Q. But you allow for that possibility?

10 A. There were meetings, but Dr. Simic knows that I was not --

11 Q. So it's possible that representatives of the local parties

12 discussed at some higher level certain aspects of the Lisbon Agreement?

13 A. Sir, you have to ask the people who attended that meeting.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, I have a couple of questions to this

15 witness with regard to his testimony about the aspects of the Bosanski

16 Samac municipality territorial aspects and stuff that he mentioned in his

17 examination-in-chief. I have a map with me. This is a map made by the

18 Office of the Prosecution. It was used in one of the expert opinion --

19 expert witness opinions. It's demographic expert. It's map 1. Probably

20 the Prosecution will not object. I have enough copies here, one for the

21 Prosecution and the other for the Bench, and then for the witness. And

22 maybe we could have some comments on that.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: May I see it, please?

24 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, sure.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I wonder if Mr. Pantelic could state for the record

Page 8263

1 which particular expert prepared this map.

2 MR. PANTELIC: I believe it's demographic expert Ms. Ewa Tabeau.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: It hasn't yet been presented or it's part of the

4 report of the --

5 MR. PANTELIC: It's part of the report, yes.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: -- of the expert.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Actually, I used this map in my opening statement,

8 if you remember well, but it was a long time ago.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: On the undertaking and understanding that this is a

10 map extracted from the report of Dr. Ewa Tabeau, a witness intended to be

11 called by the Prosecution, and on that understanding only, I have no

12 objection to the use of the map.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

14 MR. PANTELIC: I would like to tender it into evidence, of course,

15 for ID, or, if there is no objection, we could --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: No. If -- this is just a map, and you want to use

17 it to discuss whatever you want to discuss with the witness.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Then we can admit it into the evidence.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: So you can go ahead.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

21 Q. [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Paradzik. You can see this map,

22 can't you?

23 A. I can.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe, Mr. Usher, we could have this map on the

25 ELMO, and then because of the sake of the defendants, and then the witness

Page 8264

1 can explain, using pointer and then maybe magic marker afterwards.

2 Q. [Interpretation] All right. Can you see -- Mr. Paradzik, if it's

3 easier for you, you can look directly at the copy on the ELMO, whichever

4 is more comfortable.

5 We will agree, won't we, that this is a map of the municipalities

6 coloured in pale yellow which made up Odzak and Bosanski Samac?

7 A. It's from before the war; right?

8 Q. We'll come to that, because there are dual variants. This pale

9 yellow colour depicts a map of two municipalities: Odzak and Bosanski

10 Samac. Is that correct?

11 A. From which time, which period?

12 Q. Let me assist you. You can see this black line, the border of the

13 municipalities, from before April 1992. This black line is practically

14 the border of these two municipalities.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Perfect.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher --

18 Q. [Interpretation] All right. Now, this red line, according to the

19 legend below - and you will probably agree with me because it's your home

20 area - is the line of demarcation as approved in the Dayton Accords?

21 A. I think so.

22 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the population of Bosanski Samac

23 town? In 1992, for instance, what was the population?

24 A. I'm not certain. Five or six thousand.

25 Q. That's correct, five or six thousand. And Prud, as you said, had

Page 8265

1 a population of 1.200?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And we will agree now that when you look at this map, this yellow

4 territory of Prud, in order to reflect the population, should be much

5 smaller than Samac, which has a population of 5.000; isn't that right?

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please --

7 A. Well --

8 MR. DI FAZIO: -- that question --

9 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] I'm asking for your impression.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, we shouldn't be dealing with impressions, if

11 at all possible, for a start. Secondly, this man is not the author of

12 this map. A demographer is, and she may have all sorts of reasons for

13 colouring and depicting features on this map in that way. He cannot

14 possibly say what was in the demographer's mind or the cartographer's mind

15 when they created this map. He doesn't know. For instance, if those

16 colours are meant to -- and splotches on the map are in fact drawn

17 according to scale or not. So how can this witness say, answer that

18 question?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I understand, Your Honour. We can proceed, of

21 course.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Paradzik --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: How are we going to proceed? You're still

24 continuing to use the map.

25 MR. PANTELIC: I will use the map because of the explanation he

Page 8266

1 just gave in examination in chief.

2 Q. So my question is: [Interpretation] Mr. Paradzik, can we agree

3 that the Croat settlements of Bazik, Domaljevac, and Grebnice, as well as

4 some other villages, went to Orasje municipality, according to the Dayton

5 Accords, that is, the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can we agree that the settlement of Prud went to Odzak

8 municipality, that is, the Federation?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the municipality of Bosanski Samac, under Dayton Accords, is

11 practically the remainder of its former self on this map and belongs to

12 Republika Srpska? So it's possible that there was a discussion about the

13 Lisbon Agreement when Bazik, Domaljevac, and Grebnice were given to the

14 Federation and Prud to Republika Srpska?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. --

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the question is -- I object

17 to on the basis of vagueness. This witness has testified to a meeting

18 that occurred in the house at 12.00 on the 29th of February, 1992, where

19 the defendant, Dr. Blagoje Simic, made certain references to changes in

20 municipalities, and that's all that he's testified to. There's been no

21 expertise established on the part of this witness, or knowledge on the

22 part of this witness, of the Dayton Accords map drawing that occurred --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Or the Lisbon Agreement.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Or the Lisbon Agreement, for that matter, as well.

25 If you look at the question itself, it just doesn't mean anything. It

Page 8267

1 says: "So it's possible that there was discussion about the Lisbon

2 Agreement when Bazik, Domaljevac, and Grebnice were given to the

3 Federation and Prud to Republika Srpska." Where? Where was that

4 discussion? In the room, in the village of Struke, whatever it was

5 called, in Lisbon? Was it discussion in the White House? I mean, the

6 question is completely vague as well. So my objection is two-fold. I

7 think that it's not this witness's -- not within this witness's capacities

8 unless Mr. Pantelic lays the groundwork first for him to comment upon

9 complicated matters like diplomatic negotiations in Lisbon, diplomatic

10 negotiations leading to the Dayton Agreement and -- or aspects of those

11 two agreements. If Mr. Pantelic wants to question the witness about that,

12 he's free to so, but he must establish, I suggest, the expertise of this

13 witness in those areas first before he goes on to question him, and I'd be

14 surprised if he can do that.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Well, first of all, Your Honour --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic --


18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You have understood what the Prosecution is

19 saying. You're asking questions beyond the evidence which this witness

20 has given.

21 MR. PANTELIC: In fact, Your Honour, I would disagree with the

22 words of my colleague from the Prosecution side, because this witness

23 explicitly said that he heard, first of all, it was not Mr. Simic, my

24 client, it was Mr. Truman, that he heard that Mr. Truman said about

25 certain divisions in the area. And furthermore, this witness said it was

Page 8268

1 a hearsay from his fellow colleagues from the HDZ party, and therefore I

2 think I am completely entitled to explore this issue, because this witness

3 said that, simply as that. That's the point that I want to make.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but that's different from asking him about what

5 would have been discussed in the Lisbon Agreement, what could have been

6 discussed at the Dayton Agreement.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Of course, Your Honour, but we are a court of law.

8 We are here to see and to hear. An average person who can give us his

9 personal opinion about certain events, an average standard. This witness

10 said that he read in the newspaper about Lisbon Agreement. This witness

11 was a member of HDZ party. He made frequent contact with a high-ranking

12 officials of the HDZ party. So therefore, I think that he might have

13 certain informations at that time because the Lisbon Agreement was at the

14 last week of the month of February, and therefore I think the context of

15 this line of questioning is such. That was my line of questioning. Of

16 course, he's not an expert in public international law, but he said that

17 he heard about Lisbon Agreement and that was the time when Lisbon

18 Agreement was made, by the end of February of 1992, and that was simply as

19 that. To try to hear his personal knowledge about the - I don't know -

20 conversations within the municipality of Bosanski Samac, simply as that.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, with respect, Your Honour, the average

23 opinions of the average person -- the personal opinions of the average

24 person is precisely not what this Court is here to seek. Secondly, the

25 witness, as to the assertion that he had frequent contact with

Page 8269

1 high-ranking officials at the HDZ party, my recollection of his evidence

2 is quite the contrary. He was a low-ranking member of the HDZ and didn't

3 have lots of contact with high-ranking members of the party. And thirdly,

4 having simply heard about a political event, or read about it in the

5 newspapers, by no means qualifies you as an expert. And so all of that

6 Mr. Pantelic has said in his reply I think doesn't carry us any further.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. You have understood the

8 objections of the Prosecution. This is a fact witness who has given

9 evidence on what he knows, and I think you will be wasting our time to ask

10 him to give us the opinions of other people or even to speculate. Yes.

11 You have understood everything, I think, so you can proceed.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Next question for this witness:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Paradzik, can you see on this map a

14 settlement called Novi Grad? Please take a marker and make a circle

15 around it if you find it?

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Would you also put a number "1" above this marking of Novi Grad.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Can we agree that in the period prior to April 1992, on the

20 territory around Novi Grad, armed operations of the HVO against Serb

21 population were carried out?

22 A. In April?

23 Q. Prior to April 1992.

24 A. There were no clashes.

25 Q. How about after that?

Page 8270

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please make a circle and put a number

4 "2" where you find Odzak.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Can we agree that prior to April 1992, in the area of Odzak,

7 several thousand Serbs were detained?

8 A. I wouldn't like to speak about camps. I am not a witness to

9 that. You have to find somebody else. Because there were people detained

10 in Samac and there were camps all over Bosnia and Herzegovina. Please

11 don't ask me about that. That's common knowledge. Everybody knows that.

12 Everybody knows how many camps there were in Samac, how many in Odzak.

13 Q. But you know there were camps in Odzak for Serbs?

14 A. It was not a traditional camp.

15 Q. What kind of camp was it?

16 A. It was an intake centre for exchanges, because there was already

17 one camp in Samac by that time, and those people had expressed the wish to

18 go to the territory of Bosanski Samac and Modrica.

19 Q. When you say "those people," you mean Serbs?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. From the region of Odzak?

22 A. From Donja Dubica, Novi Grad, Trnjak.

23 Q. People who were in this intake centre for exchanges under the

24 command of which unit, please?

25 A. This was administered by civilian authorities, and civilian

Page 8271

1 officials conducted negotiations about that. This president of the SDS -

2 what's his name - Tesanovic - they negotiated about this corridor and -- I

3 don't know.

4 Q. Tesanovic president of the SDS from which place?

5 A. He was president of the SDS for the Odzak municipality.

6 Q. And he negotiated with who on the other side? What's the name of

7 his Croatian counterpart?

8 A. I suppose it was with the president of the municipality, Stipe

9 Ivankovic. I wasn't there. I don't know who negotiated with whom.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Witness, you must understand that you can only

11 answer questions about things and events which you know about. If you

12 don't know, you simply say you don't know, all right?

13 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So Stipe Ivankovic was a Croat, wasn't he?

15 A. I'd rather not talk about that. I wasn't present there, and I

16 don't know.

17 Q. But my question was very simple: Was Mr. Stipe Ivankovic a Croat

18 or a Serb?

19 A. He was a Croat, naturally. That much is certain. Because in the

20 entire Posavina, the HDZ had carried the victory, and presidents of

21 municipalities were Croats, if you really want me to say it in so many

22 words.

23 Q. And they made up this Croatian community of Bosnian Posavina?

24 A. No. In all municipalities of Bosnian Posavina, presidents of

25 municipalities were Croats because the HDZ was the winning party.

Page 8272

1 Q. Do you know where Sjekovac is?

2 A. I don't -- near Bosanski Brod, but I've never been there. I heard

3 it was near Bosanski Brod.

4 Q. What did you hear about Sjekovac?

5 A. I haven't heard anything.

6 Q. Have you heard about a massacre of Serbs by the HVO, the Croatian

7 National Guard, and Croatian forces in the end of March?

8 A. No.

9 MR. PANTELIC: It's time for a break, I think, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. I was about to ask you what was

11 the relevance of those questions.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Very big relevance, Your Honour, because of the

13 events prior to 17 April in 1992 in Samac, the number and the flow of the

14 Bosnian Serb refugees in Samac and the events after the 7th of April [sic]

15 and the impact of events on 17th April with regard to the commune

16 services, social services in Samac, and stuff like that. It's a very --

17 and specifically because the indictment is covering period from October

18 1991 until the end of 1993. That was the relevance.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if that's the case, if that is the case, Your

20 Honour, then surely the question should be directed to precisely that

21 issue: The inflow of refugees. Not massacres that occurred in other parts

22 of the country.

23 MR. PANTELIC: After the break, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And also specifying the time, time frame.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right.

Page 8273

1 MR. PANTELIC: And Your Honour, finally how we can have a flow

2 prior to massacre and prior armament actions. We have to establish the

3 line, the chain of events, simply as that. Why the flow happened. But I

4 will discuss this later.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll take our break and continue at 1805.

6 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. You are cross-examining.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours.

10 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Paradzik, you agreed with me that there

11 was some detention of Serb civilians in the area of Odzak; is that

12 correct?

13 A. No, we did not agree on that.

14 Q. Do you know that in the area of Odzak, while the Serb civilians

15 were detained, more than a thousand Serb women were raped?

16 A. That's a lie, and I was -- I didn't know that.

17 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that Serbs from Trnjak, Dubica, and

18 the surrounding villages could not go towards Brod, Odzak, and Modrica

19 because of barricades and checkpoints that were set up by the HVO?

20 A. In what period?

21 Q. Before April of 1992.

22 A. They could pass there.

23 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that before April 17th, 1992,

24 forces of HVO occupied Bosanski Brod? Yes or no.

25 A. I don't know what date that was.

Page 8274

1 Q. But it happened?

2 A. That is not within my area. I would not like to talk about that.

3 Q. Were you personally aware that HVO forces took Derventa before

4 April 17th, 1992?

5 A. I am not a witness here to testify on when and how the war began.

6 Q. That's not what I asked you. I asked you whether you personally

7 knew that HVO forces took Derventa before April 17th, 1992.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were you personally aware that before April 17th, 1992, HVO forces

10 took the town of Odzak?

11 A. I would like to clarify something.

12 Q. Please do.

13 A. After the multiparty elections and the referendum in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in which the Croats and Bosnians chose an independent

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina, in all the municipalities that Mr. Pantelic is

16 mentioning to me here, the Croat and Muslim population was in the

17 majority, and I cannot say who they were occupying Odzak Derventa and

18 Bosanski Brod from, who they were taking those cities from. And

19 therefore, I would like to ask not to be given such questions any more.

20 Croats were never interested in talking about the divisions of Bosnian

21 Posavina, because they were the majority, and this division didn't suit

22 their interests.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, you can see where this line

24 of questioning has led us. The witness is now entering into and, I say,

25 completely without fault on his part, into political polemic. We're not

Page 8275

1 here to discuss the political situation as it was developing in -- unless

2 it's got direct relevance to elements in the indictment, as it was

3 developing in April 1992. Before the break I objected to a question

4 regarding alleged or real or imagined HVO or Croatian atrocities in

5 different parts of the country. And the retort of my learned friend was:

6 Well, the point of that questioning is to establish the reason for the

7 flow of refugees into Bosanski Samac. On that basis, I haven't objected

8 to any of these questions, but we're not getting to the crunch point. If

9 my learned friend's interest lies in establishing a flow of refugees into

10 Bosanski Samac, for whatever purpose he seeks, then it at least is

11 connected, in some way, to the events that the Chamber is concern with,

12 and I have no objection. But to start cross-examining about real or

13 imagined or what -- or other events in other parts of the country is

14 simply neither here nor there and is not going to assist you. How will

15 this -- how will events that took place in Derventa assist the Chamber in

16 deciding any particular issue in the case?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I was actually looking at the map, trying to find

18 where Derventa is, whether it is within the Bosanski municipality.

19 Because I was thinking that maybe it was touching on the internationality

20 question.

21 MR. PANTELIC: It's a region, Your Honour -- it's just west of the

22 Odzak. This is the region, Odzak, and then Modrica is over there. So

23 it's Posavina. On many occasions here we heard about Posavina, so that's

24 the region, Posavina.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: But it's not part of the municipality?

Page 8276

1 MR. PANTELIC: In fact, it's a neighbouring municipality of Odzak,

2 which is a white -- on the west, and south it's Modrica. And the east is

3 Orasje, and the south is Gradacac. So that's the region of Posavina. And

4 these are the facts, my learned friend. It's not politics. These are the

5 facts.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: They may well be facts. They may well be facts. I

7 don't know. But the question is: What is the relevance to the

8 indictment, to the issues in the indictment? That's what's concerning

9 me.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Flow of the Serb refugees to Samac, my dear friend.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Then if that is the issue, if the Chamber pleases,

12 then surely we should get to the point. Surely we should start some

13 questions about the flow of refugees into Bosanski Samac.

14 MR. PANTELIC: I will narrow the issue in that sense, Your

15 Honours.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Let's see how far you go.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Sure.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Do you have any knowledge that because of the

19 armed activities and the expulsion of Serbs in the area of Bosanski Brod,

20 a certain number of Serb refugees had to leave Bosanski Brod?

21 A. Where did these refugees go?

22 Q. Do you know that there were any refugees from those areas?

23 A. I didn't see them.

24 Q. Do you have any knowledge that the Orthodox church in Bosanski

25 Brod was blown up?

Page 8277

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know anything about the expulsion of Serbs from the

3 municipality of Derventa?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know that the Orthodox church in the -- the Serbian

6 Orthodox church in Derventa was also blown up?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know anything the expulsion of Serbs by the HVO from

9 Modrica before April 17th, 1992?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, yes. Now, having heard all these

12 questions that you are asking, they don't touch on the matters in the

13 indictment.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Well, to some extent --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: So I will limit your time, because you are getting

16 outside the indictment. We are wasting a lot of time.

17 MR. PANTELIC: To some extent it's related to the flow of

18 refugees, but I will go to another topic.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: How much more do you need? How much more time do

20 you need?

21 MR. PANTELIC: I think until the -- at the best, depending on the

22 answers of this witness --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: No. It will depend on your questions. If they're

24 outside the indictment, then I'll stop you.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Sure.

Page 8278

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Because then it will show that you haven't got any

2 cross-examination relevant to the matters discussed by the witness and

3 relevant to the indictment.

4 MR. PANTELIC: I agree, Your Honour. Let's see how these things

5 will go.

6 Q. Okay. [Interpretation] Mr. Paradzik, the population of Prud was

7 armed; is that right?

8 A. Not before the war.

9 Q. Before April 17th, 1992?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It was not armed?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You said to the Prosecutor a day ago the following: [In English]

14 "People in Prud were buying their own arms. Croatia was already at war.

15 There was blockage. Nonetheless, people tried to get weapons."

16 [Interpretation] Is that what you said to the Prosecutor?

17 A. I don't know who was trying to get weapons. That was everybody's

18 personal choice.

19 Q. Did you say this to the Prosecutor or not?

20 A. Yes. People were buying weapons, individually. But I didn't know

21 who exactly was buying them.

22 Q. In the territory of the local commune of Prud, there were some

23 members of the Croatian army; is that correct?

24 A. No.

25 Q. There were members of the HVO armed formation of the Bosnian

Page 8279

1 Croats?

2 A. In what period?

3 Q. Before April 17th, 1992.

4 A. No.

5 Q. There were members of the ZNG, the Croatian National Guard?

6 A. No.

7 Q. But you said to the Prosecutor: [In English] Struke residents

8 were fearful of ZNG people coming in and taking over their towns, so they

9 wanted a checkpoint."

10 [Interpretation] Is that what you said to the Prosecutor?

11 A. That was their assumption, because Croatia was so close.

12 Q. So it is your claim that there were no Croatian armed formations

13 in the area of Prud?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. You said that certain people from the HDZ said to you that Blagoje

16 Simic talked of a certain division on the level of Bosanski Samac. That's

17 what you said to the Prosecutor; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting at all to

20 this, but I'm just unclear as to what is being put to the witness. Is

21 Mr. Pantelic putting transcript from today's proceedings to the witness or

22 he referring to my notes of my proofing of the witness?

23 MR. PANTELIC: The day's transcript.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I see. Thank you. Thank you very much.

25 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8280

1 Q. Mr. Paradzik, on this map that you see in front of you, could you

2 mark to circle Breznice, Bazik, and Domaljevac, please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Could you also put the numbers "3," "4," and "5" right by the

5 circles.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. So 3 is Grebnice, 4 is Bazik, and 5 is Domaljevac?

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pantelic.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: This is with respect to Mr. Di Fazio's question

11 re: What you were referring to in terms of the witness saying certain

12 things to the Prosecutor. Concerning his -- your question, page 71 line

13 1, you say to the witness: "You said to the Prosecutor Struke residents

14 were fearful of ZNG people coming in and taking over their town so they

15 wanted a checkpoint." I don't recall this afternoon hearing anything in

16 the testimony this afternoon about ZNG people coming in. So I'm wondering

17 what you're referring to in the context of that question as opposed to the

18 second question, where you're referring to what Dr. Blagoje Simic

19 allegedly said concerning division of Bosanski Samac. So you had two

20 questions, and with the first one, is it the Prosecutor's notes or --

21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, these are notes.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: -- something else.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Notes. And the witness confirmed that he said that

24 to Prosecution. It's just notes. He said that to the Prosecution. But

25 not in chief, but I would say, well, unofficial conversation with the

Page 8281

1 Prosecution. Okay.

2 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Paradzik, could you please also circle Prud, and could you

4 please put number "6" right next to it.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. So we could agree that Grebnice, Bazik, and Domaljevac are in the

7 territory of the Federation of B and H; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We could also agree that Prud is also in the territory of the

10 Federation of B and H?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And we have already agreed earlier that you had assumed that there

13 was some discussion about the Lisbon Agreement on the higher levels of the

14 municipality government; is that correct?

15 A. I don't know if there was any discussion about the Lisbon

16 Agreement. I didn't really know anything about the Lisbon Agreement.

17 Q. You said to the Prosecutor, while you were talking about what you

18 heard from your colleagues from the HDZ, that these colleagues from the

19 HDZ told you: [In English] They reported that Blagoje Simic said that

20 Prud had to be joined to Odzak, part of Grebnice, Bazik and Domaljevac had

21 to be joined to Orasje. The remaining parts would stay as a part of the

22 Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac."

23 [Interpretation] Is that what you said to the OTP?

24 A. Yes. Blagoje suggested it, and the Croatian representatives

25 firmly rejected it. Because on the level of the municipality, the

Page 8282

1 majority population was Croat, and it wasn't in the interest of Croats to

2 have a division. They did not want to talk about any kind of division.

3 Q. But we agreed earlier that there was a possibility that on the

4 party level they talked about the Lisbon Agreement, so you weren't there

5 present yourself, but there was a possibility.

6 A. Well, I wouldn't know about that.

7 Q. When did the HVO come to the territory of Prud?

8 A. HVO consisted of the inhabitants of Prud.

9 Q. So they were there even before April of 1992?

10 A. Of course. The local commune of Prud. You can call it whatever

11 you want. They organised self-defence in case of an attack.

12 Q. Let's be precise. HVO is an armed component of the Croatian

13 community of Bosnian Posavina. What is HVO?

14 A. HVO didn't used to be called that. It used to be called the

15 Territorial Defence.

16 Q. When did HVO get that name, then?

17 A. I don't know, but at that time it was called the Territorial

18 Defence.

19 Q. So HVO didn't exist before April 17th, 1992?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did HVO exist in June or July of 1992?

22 A. I don't know. I don't know when that name was created.

23 Q. But you said to the OTP the following: [In English] "Defence was

24 immediately organised through the HVO. It meant taking care of

25 civilians."

Page 8283

1 [Interpretation] Is that what you said to the OTP?

2 A. Through civilian defence. It was civilian defence.

3 Q. Who was the commander of this HVO unit in Prud?

4 A. Mijo Masic was the commander of this defence unit.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Now, Your Honour, I can tender this map into

6 evidence, because I'm going to another topic with this witness.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number?

8 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D31/1, Your Honours.

9 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. On the 22nd of February, 1992, a meeting was held in Struke in a

11 private house; is that correct? Were you present there?

12 A. On the 29th.

13 Q. Yes. I meant the 29th. Whose house was that?

14 A. I don't know the man's name, but it was a Serb-owned house.

15 Q. Can I remind you? Was it perhaps Vujacic's house?

16 A. There is no such surname.

17 Q. Perhaps Vujicic?

18 A. I'm not sure. I know which house it was.

19 Q. How far is that house from your own?

20 A. About 3 kilometres.

21 Q. Prud is a small place.

22 A. My house is at the beginning, looking from Samac, and this one is

23 at the end.

24 Q. And do you remember perhaps that Vujicic was the owner of that

25 house?

Page 8284

1 A. I'm not sure about the last name. I know which house was used for

2 the meeting.

3 Q. Is that man alive today, the owner of the house?

4 A. I don't know where he lives.

5 Q. Wasn't he killed?

6 A. I don't think so.

7 Q. I'll give you the opportunity to correct yourself. My client says

8 that he didn't come on that occasion with Truman. He says that instead he

9 came with Mr. Tadic and he remained in that house for about ten minutes on

10 that occasion, on the 29th.

11 A. He came with Truman and he spent more than that.

12 Q. Where is this Truman person?

13 A. He got killed.

14 Q. When?

15 A. At the beginning of the war.

16 Q. So not long after the 17th of April?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Where?

19 A. Between Prud and Struke.

20 Q. Who killed him?

21 A. I wouldn't know that.

22 Q. You didn't?

23 A. I did not.

24 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the fact that this Truman, before

25 the 17th of April, as a result of terror by Croats and Muslims in Prud

Page 8285

1 against the Serbs, organised a boat to take him across the river and flee

2 from that terror, flee to Samac?

3 A. I have no clue.

4 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the entire Serb population of Prud

5 and the surrounding villages, and Struke, was expelled towards Samac

6 before April?

7 A. No.

8 Q. The interpretation was not correct. You said they were not

9 expelled. Am I right? You said a moment ago.

10 A. They were not expelled. I have no knowledge that they were

11 expelled.

12 Q. But they didn't remain in Prud?

13 A. They had not been in Prud anyway. They were in their own

14 settlements.

15 Q. Were they in Struke?

16 A. In Struke and in Trnjak.

17 Q. And for all you know, prior to the 17th of April, they were still

18 in Struke?

19 A. I don't know until what date they were there.

20 Q. But you know that they left?

21 A. They left of their own free will for Novi Grad.

22 Q. And Novi Grad is to the west from Prud?

23 A. I don't know to which side it is.

24 Q. But it's not in the direction of Samac, in any case?

25 A. It's not.

Page 8286

1 Q. And what happened to them eventually, and to the inhabitants of

2 Novi Grad?

3 A. Well, eventually they negotiated with the Odzak municipality.

4 They asked for passage and they agreed on something. I don't know.

5 Q. That meeting in that Serb-owned house that you mentioned, held on

6 the 29th of February, 1992, it was not a meeting; it was a private

7 gathering, a party of some kind?

8 A. It was a meeting.

9 Q. And brandy was served, wasn't it?

10 A. I didn't drink any. I don't know if anyone else did.

11 Q. And there was finger food, wasn't there?

12 A. I didn't eat anything.

13 Q. According to my information, it was a gathering of private persons

14 which was not organised to discuss the subject that you are talking

15 about. I'm giving you a chance to correct yourself.

16 A. That was a meeting scheduled for the citizens, for the inhabitants

17 who lived there, the villagers.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, can I have a few seconds just to

19 verify certain notes, and I'm very near to the end of my

20 cross-examination.


22 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

23 I don't have further questions for this witness. Thank you, Your

24 Honours. [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Paradzik.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] clarify with

Page 8287

1 the witness. When you were asked about brandy being served and finger

2 food, you said you didn't drink any, or you didn't eat any. Did you see

3 any brandy being served or any finger food being served?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other -- Mr. Pisarevic asking any questions?

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I will

7 cross-examine.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good evening, Mr. Paradzik. My name is Borislav

10 Pisarevic, representing Mr. Simo Zaric here. I have a few subjects that I

11 wish to cover with you, and I would appreciate it to answer me with a yes,

12 no, or "I don't know" whenever possible.

13 You have told this Trial Chamber that you have known Mr. Simo

14 Zaric for over 3 years; isn't that correct?

15 A. I've known him from before 1972.

16 Q. Very well. If I noted this correctly, you have said that in 1975

17 you went to Sisak to work.

18 A. It was 1974.

19 Q. Thank you. Sisak is a city in the Republic of Croatia, isn't it?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. Sisak is about a hundred or 150 kilometres away from Prud, isn't

22 it?

23 A. Well, roughly.

24 Q. Can you tell me: How often, in view of your job, were you able to

25 go home in Prud?

Page 8288

1 A. I occupied a job which involved working in shifts. I worked for

2 15 days a month, and 15 days I was free, I was off.

3 Q. Thank you. I suppose that those 15 days you were off you spent

4 home in Prud.

5 A. That is so.

6 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Mr. Zaric, somewhere in the

7 beginning of the 1980s, went to Belgrade to work there?

8 A. Yes, I am.

9 Q. You also know that Mr. Zaric worked in Doboj and in Modrica, don't

10 you?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. I suppose you also know that Mr. Zaric had a large number of

13 friends in the village of Prud.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You know that there was a culture and arts society named after

16 Vladimir Nazor in Prud, don't you?

17 A. I know that.

18 Q. Do you know that Mr. Zaric was a member of that society?

19 A. I don't know whether he was a member, but he went with them on

20 tours. He took part in performances.

21 Q. So he participated?

22 A. Well, he took part occasionally. It was not a permanent society.

23 Q. They took part in a rather popular TV programme, "Knowledge is

24 Treasure"?

25 A. Yes, I know that.

Page 8289

1 Q. That culture and arts society promoted the customs of the

2 Croatian -- or the Croat people from the village of Prud, didn't they?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you remember that Mr. Zaric, during the performances of that

5 society, wore the traditional full costume of the Croat people?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You never heard anyone say that Mr. Zaric was bothered by the fact

8 that he was promoting the customs of the Croat people, especially from

9 Posavina, in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You also know, as you have told us, that there is a football club

12 called Unity or Sloga in Prud?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Can you confirm that Mr. Zaric was an active member of that

15 football club?

16 A. He was on the veterans' team. He was not on the senior team.

17 Q. This veteran team, they also play matches under the name of that

18 football club called Unity or Sloga?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you ever play for the veterans?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Have you ever played together with Mr. Simo Zaric?

23 A. Yes, I have.

24 Q. Can you tell me: How many times would you say you were together

25 on the veterans' team in this Unity club?

Page 8290

1 A. Several times.

2 Q. And can you tell me: When was the last time that you and

3 Mr. Zaric played together on the veterans' team?

4 A. In 1992, or maybe 1991. No, it wasn't 1992. It was 1991.

5 Q. Can you recall what match it was, against whom did you play?

6 A. It was either Orasje or Crkvina. I'm not sure.

7 Q. Let me remind you. Seven days prior to the 17th of April, 1992, a

8 match was played between the veterans against Orasje, on the stadium in

9 Prud. Do you remember now?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. You and Mr. Zaric were not close friends, were you? You didn't

12 meet up very often, talk, anything like that?

13 A. Well, when we did meet up, we would sit down together.

14 Q. But only when you met by accident on such occasions?

15 A. We were nodding acquaintances. We would greet each other, but we

16 were not close friends.

17 Q. Mr. Paradzik, I don't dispute that you were on good terms and that

18 you greeted each other, but you didn't really socialise that much, did

19 you?

20 A. We didn't.

21 Q. You know that Mr. Simo Zaric was born in the village of Trnjak,

22 don't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That in that village, Trnjak, he had an old mother and his own

25 property?

Page 8291

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You will agree with me that in order to reach Trnjak, Simo Zaric

3 had to cross the bridge over the Bosna River and go through the village of

4 Prud to reach Trnjak?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. At one point you said that Trnjak belonged to Donja Dubica; is

7 that so?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know that there was a local commune called Zorice Trnjak?

10 A. It did not exist.

11 Q. It was a local commune.

12 A. All of these are hamlets, and they all fall under Donja Dubica

13 local commune.

14 Q. Zorice is populated by Croats; isn't that so?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Whereas Trnjak has a Serb population, doesn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You have spoken here about Struke. Is it true that a part of

19 Struke belonged to the local commune of Prud?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Is it the case that another part of Struke belonged to the local

22 commune of Vojskova?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And did a third part belong to the local commune of Donja Dubica?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8292

1 Q. The settlement of Prud is located on the left bank of the Bosna

2 River, isn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That settlement of Prud defends itself from frequent flooding with

5 an embankment; isn't that so?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And it is only when you pass this embankment that you find the

8 first houses in Prud; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Similarly, Bosanski Samac, which is located on the right bank of

11 the Bosna River and the right bank of the Sava River, is protected with an

12 embankment for the same reason; isn't that so?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can we agree that the settlements of Prud and Samac begin with

15 these embankments which protect them from the flooding of the Sava River?

16 A. Yes, we can.

17 Q. And can we agree further with this estimate of mine: The distance

18 between these two embankments is 700 to 800 metres?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And I suppose we can also agree that this distance, apart from the

21 fact -- from the part occupied by the water bed of the Bosna River, is

22 covered with poplars and other trees?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, I've been following your questions.

25 We've been getting so many details on the geography of this area. I'm

Page 8293

1 wondering what is the point of all these details. At first I thought that

2 you were trying to show that Mr. Simo Zaric, in order to go and see his

3 more than in Trnjak, had to pass through Prud. Then we went into these

4 details. I'm wondering what is the point of all this.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this line of

6 questioning is geared at presenting a picture to the Trial Chamber and

7 other participants in the proceedings, especially in view of the fact that

8 the witness spoke about the organisation of the local commune of Prud,

9 about the action, that is, fire from certain weapons, and the actions of

10 the citizens of Samac, that is, fire towards Prud, and the movements from

11 Samac to Prud, and the preparations conducted in the local commune of

12 Prud, such as the building of bunkers, particularly on these embankments.

13 And I have a couple of more questions related to this. I think I have

14 finished with the geographical part. Because when the Prosecutor says:

15 "Is the village of Prud immediately after these poplars," it looks as if

16 it's a distance of 100 metres, whereas in fact it's 800 metres and could

17 be even a kilometre. We have to distinguish between the positions of the

18 Serb forces, the positions of the HVO. We have to understand what kind of

19 preparations were made. And you cannot have failed to notice that the

20 village of Prud is very frequently mentioned in our case because certain

21 activities took place there, and it was, in a way, the best place for

22 certain discussions, negotiations, preparations. And this is the reason

23 for my earlier discussion with the witness, because he is very familiar

24 with the subject and he could clear this up for us.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, Mr. Pisarevic. We can go ahead, but not

Page 8294

1 too much detail.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best. Thank you for

3 this admonition.

4 Q. Mr. Paradzik, you said that right after the multiparty elections,

5 the local commune of Prud was established, or rather, the council of the

6 local commune, as it was called then. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And within that hierarchy, you were allotted the position of

9 vice-president of the council of the local commune, weren't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you get this position as a member of the HDZ party or for some

12 other reason?

13 A. I got it as a member of the HDZ and as an honourable man.

14 Q. You are leading me to conclude that you became a member of the HDZ

15 as soon as 1990.

16 A. That's when I became their follower, a partisan of the HDZ.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am being warned

18 that my time is up for today.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I would like to find out how many more minutes

20 you need to complete your cross-examination.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I think 30.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We will adjourn until tomorrow at 1415

23 hours.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of May,

Page 8295

1 2002, at 2.15 p.m.