1 Monday, 27 May 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Milan Simic not present]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number
9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav
10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is sitting with two Judges, and
12 we'll continue the proceedings under Rule 15 bis, subparagraph A, because
13 Judge Lindholm is not able to be with us due to illness.
14 The Prosecution.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, if Your Honours please. It's necessary
16 for us now to go into -- I believe the term is private session. That is
17 the suppression of sound. It doesn't have to be a fully closed session.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: But the content of what is said needs to be
20 suppressed, so I'd ask that we move into private session.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we go into private session.
22 [Private session]
12 Pages 8340-8358 – redacted – private session
3 [Open session]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness make the solemn declaration.
6 WITNESS: ALIJA FITOZOVIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Please sit down. Yes.
11 The blinds can be lifted.
12 Yes, the Prosecution can proceed.
13 Examined by Mr. Weiner:
14 Q. Would you state your name for the record. Can you hear me?
15 A. I have no interpretation.
16 Q. Can you hear me now?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Could you state your name, please.
19 A. My name is Alija Fitozovic.
20 Q. And what is your date of birth?
21 A. 8th of March, 1957.
22 Q. So that makes you 45 years old?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Are you married?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you have any children?
2 A. Yes, I do. Two sons.
3 Q. Where were you born, sir?
4 A. In Bosanski Samac.
5 Q. Where was your father born?
6 A. In Bosanski Samac.
7 Q. And your mother?
8 A. In Serbia.
9 Q. How long had your father's family lived in Bosanski Samac?
10 A. Since mid-nineteenth century.
11 Q. Of what ethnic group do you belong?
12 A. Muslim.
13 Q. Have you ever been a member of any political party?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Of which political parties have you been a member?
16 A. I was a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, then I
17 was a member of the Croatian Democratic Union, and also a member of the
18 SDA party.
19 Q. When you were a member of the Communist Party, did you hold any
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And what position did you hold?
23 A. I was a delegate in the Municipal Assembly, as a member of the
24 League of Communists.
25 Q. And at this time, do you belong to any political parties?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Sir, I'd like to go over your educational background. Where did
3 you go to school?
4 A. I completed my elementary education in Bosanski Samac, the high
5 school for electrical engineering I completed in Odzak. In 1976 I
6 enrolled on a course of electrical engineering in Sarajevo, where I spent
7 a year. After that I got married, got a job, and then I continued my
8 studies at the same time as I worked, in Subotica and in Novi Sad.
9 Q. And while you were working in Subotica and Novi Sad, what were you
11 A. I studied in a two-year electrical engineering college, and then
12 in Novi Sad I went to the two-year course for expert associate.
13 Q. Do you hold an engineering degree at this time?
14 A. No, I do not have an engineering degree, but I do have a degree
15 that one gets after this two-year course. In our system it was the sixth
16 degree of education, the sixth level of education.
17 Q. And it would probably be called an associate's degree in
18 electrical engineering in many of the Western states; is that correct?
19 A. Approximately, yes.
20 Q. Sir, were you ever in the military in the former Yugoslavia?
21 A. Yes. I did my national service.
22 Q. When did you do your national service?
23 A. I served it in 1978 and 1979, in the centre for reserve officers
24 in Karlovac.
25 Q. Did you ever attend reserve officer's school?
1 A. Yes. That's what I said. I attended the reserve officer's school
2 in Karlovac.
3 Q. Sorry. Now, upon completion, did you attain a certain rank?
4 A. Yes. After I completed my duty at the JNA, I attained the rank of
5 second lieutenant.
6 Q. Now, after 1979, did you receive any additional training?
7 A. Yes. Up until 1986 I did several types of training in the
8 Engineering Corps of the military.
9 Q. And did you attain another rank other than second lieutenant?
10 A. Yes. After that I attained the rank of lieutenant, then the rank
11 of captain. In 1986 I became the commander of the Engineering Corps in,
12 in a corps that belonged to the brigade.
13 Q. Were you a professional soldier, sir?
14 A. No, I was not a professional soldier. I was a reserve officer in
15 the professional military.
16 Q. And as a reserve officer, how many months did you spend in the
17 military each year?
18 A. Approximately two months every year.
19 Q. Now, not being a professional soldier, I believe you had to work.
20 Where were you employed?
21 A. I worked for Elektrodistribucija in Bosanski Samac.
22 Q. And what was that? What type of business was that?
23 A. This was a state-owned company that distributed electricity. So
24 its basic job was distribution and the continuous supply of electricity to
25 consumers, the end users.
1 Q. In what area did you provide the electricity? Was this just in
2 the town of Bosanski Samac or outside that area?
3 A. We supplied neighbouring municipalities also with the
4 electrical -- with electricity: Orasje, Odzak, Modrica, and of course all
5 the local communes in our municipality.
6 Q. When did you start working there?
7 A. I worked there twice. The first time, before my -- going away to
8 college and before I completed my military service, and then after the
9 military, from 1979 until the end of 1991, until December of 1991.
10 Q. When you started working there, let's say on a full-time basis, in
11 1979, what position did you hold?
12 A. I did more than one thing. The majority of my time there I spent
13 first as a manager of the department for measuring and protecting the
14 electrical devices, and then for some six years I worked as the manager of
15 the technical division.
16 Q. And as manager of the technical division, what did you do?
17 A. As part of my job description, I was responsible mostly for the
18 continuous supply of electricity, for the quality of that electricity that
19 was being distributed, so for the continuity of supply, removal of
20 problems, and so forth.
21 Q. Did you supervise a number of people in this position, as head of
22 the technical unit?
23 A. In this job, I had about six work groups. All together there were
24 about 52 people in these groups.
25 Q. Now, sir, having spent most of your life in Bosanski Samac, I'm
1 going to ask you if you know some people. Are you familiar with a man by
2 the name of Simo Zaric?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. How long have you known Simo Zaric?
5 A. I have known him for about 25 years.
6 Q. Having known him for that long period of time, I'd ask you to look
7 around this courtroom, and could you tell me if he's sitting in this
8 courtroom at this time?
9 A. Yes, he is. He is in the courtroom.
10 Q. Could you please point him out and describe him.
11 A. He is the man who is sitting on the third from the left, and he's
12 wearing glasses. On the left side from where I am.
13 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Miroslav Tadic?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. How long have you known Miroslav Tadic?
16 A. I have known him for about 30 years.
17 Q. And I'd ask you to look around this courtroom and tell us if he's
18 seated in this courtroom at this time.
19 A. Yes, he is sitting in the courtroom.
20 Q. And could you tell us where he's sitting?
21 A. Yes. The second from the left. He's also wearing glasses. He's
23 Q. And do you know a man by the name of Blagoje Simic?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And how long have you known him?
1 A. I have known him for about 20 years, maybe a little bit longer
2 than that.
3 Q. And is he sitting in this courtroom at this time?
4 A. Yes, he is in the courtroom.
5 Q. And could you please point him out too to the Court.
6 A. He's the first from the left.
7 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may the record reflect that all three
8 defendants have been identified.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
10 MR. WEINER:
11 Q. Just one more question. Are you familiar with a man by the name
12 of Milan Simic?
13 A. Yes, I am.
14 Q. And how long have you known him?
15 A. I've known him for about 20 years, maybe a little bit longer.
16 Q. All right. Now, let's go back to the late spring and early summer
17 of 1991. Could you tell the Court during that time period what the
18 atmosphere was like in Bosanski Samac?
19 A. Well, the atmosphere in Bosanski Samac resembled a normal
20 atmosphere, although the citizens of Bosanski Samac felt a certain fear
21 because war was in their neighbourhood, in Croatia, and they were afraid
22 that this war could spill over to Bosnia.
23 Q. Now, sir, are you familiar with a cafe known as the Cafe Molla?
24 A. Yes, I am familiar with the name of that cafe.
25 Q. And where is that located?
1 A. It's very close to the city market.
2 Q. And that's in Bosanski Samac?
3 A. Yes, yes, in Bosanski Samac.
4 Q. Now, in the late spring and early summer of 1991, did you happen
5 to visit the Cafe Molla?
6 A. Yes. I would go there.
7 Q. And when you went there during that time period, did you receive
8 any information or were you made aware of any rumours at that time?
9 A. At that time that we're talking about, a polarisation in the town
10 could already be felt amongst members of different ethnic groups. So
11 there were cafes or restaurants where only Muslims or only Croats would
12 go; only Serbs would go to other cafes. There were some cafes that
13 everybody frequented. I would very often go to the cafe called Molla, and
14 townsfolk that were Muslim would mostly gather there. Sometimes a Croat
15 would also show up.
16 Q. Now, during that time that you were going to the Cafe Molla, did
17 you hear any rumours, let's say, relating to weapons? Did you hear any
18 rumours relating to weapons?
19 A. Yes. This was a very visited place. I said that this cafe was
20 close to the city market, and in this cafe I heard that some trucks with
21 weapons were coming to Bosanski Samac and that certain people in Bosanski
22 Samac were arming themselves.
23 Q. People of what ethnic group did you hear were arming themselves in
24 the late spring and early summer of 1991 in Bosanski Samac?
25 A. They were of the Serb ethnic group.
1 Q. And how often did you hear these rumours in the late spring and
2 summer of 1991?
3 A. I'd hear them several times. Once somebody from the town came,
4 and this person said that a truck had arrived with weapons, and it came to
5 the area of town that was called Novo Naselje, or the New Settlement,
7 Q. And when someone came to the cafe Molla and told you that, what
8 did you do?
9 A. Well, there were rumours all over the place, and some of them were
10 true and some of them weren't. I got in my car and drove towards Novo
11 Naselje because I wanted to check this piece of information, and indeed
12 I saw a truck with weapons. There were some cases on this truck,
13 actually. I assume weapons were in the cases.
14 Q. All right. Let's take it one step at a time. What hour of the
15 day or night were you told that there was a truck of weapons?
16 A. This was after 9.00 in the evening.
17 Q. So you went to the area known as the New Settlement and you saw a
18 truck. Could you describe it, as best you can recall?
19 A. This was a truck, capacity about seven tonnes. Well, it's hard to
20 explain. I think that was the standard type of truck. And there were
21 some wooden cases in it, and some young men were unloading these weapons
22 in front of a house which belongs to a Serb.
23 Q. Now, it had these wooden cases. Could you describe them, as best
24 you can.
25 A. Wooden cases. It was long, say about a metre, metre and a half.
1 The height was maybe 30 centimetres and the width about 80 centimetres,
2 something like that, approximately.
3 Q. And these boxes which were being unloaded off a truck sometime
4 after 9.00 at night, had you ever seen boxes like that before or since?
5 A. I had seen them before, and of course I saw them later as well.
6 Q. And what were found, or what were those boxes used to hold?
7 A. Usually they used to hold semi-automatic and automatic rifles,
8 also M-48 rifles, and also equipment for maintaining of those rifles.
9 Q. These people that were removing these boxes, did you ever see them
10 at some later time?
11 A. Yes, I saw them later. They were members of the 4th Detachment.
12 Q. Now, as the summer continued in 1991, did you hear any other
13 rumours about weapons being distributed?
14 A. Yes. The same thing happened in the town, in the settlement that
15 was built behind the stadium. Also a fellow townsperson came. He was a
16 Muslim. And he told us that weapons had also arrived in that part of
18 Q. Now, when did this happen, this incident occur, that someone told
19 you that weapons were being -- that a truck with weapons had arrived in
20 the area by the stadium? During what month in the summer, if you recall?
21 A. This was maybe at the beginning of August.
22 Q. And did they say that it was being delivered or it was being
23 unloaded near a certain house?
24 A. Yes. This truck was unloaded close to the house of Stevo,
25 nicknamed Para.
1 Q. And what did you do after hearing this information? Did you do
2 anything to confirm it?
3 A. Yes. I sent a young man to there. He went there on his bike. He
4 went towards the house of Stevo, Para, and he came back quite quickly.
5 And he said that he saw the truck and he saw that people were unloading
6 something off the truck.
7 Q. And did he describe the boxes that were being unloaded, when he
8 said something was being unloaded off the truck? Did he say it was boxes?
9 A. Yes. He said that they were rifles. He was also in the military,
10 so he must have known. He must have known that they were rifles.
11 Q. What time of day or night did this occur?
12 A. This also happened in the evening, around 9.30/10.00 p.m.
13 Q. Now, did you receive any other information during the summer of
14 1991 concerning people receiving arms in the villages surrounding Bosanski
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Tell the Court what information you had received during the summer
18 of 1991.
19 A. In the summer of that year, 1991, I found out that in all the
20 villages -- in all the Serb villages in the municipality of Bosanski
21 Samac, weapons had been handed out.
22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, I wonder whether you could clarify
23 with the witness these boxes that both he and the person on the bicycle
24 saw being taken off the trucks. Apart from the dimensions of the boxes,
25 was it noticeable that there was any lettering, any symbols, any marks
1 that would identify these as belonging to the military and so on? Apart
2 from they were wooden boxes and they were of a certain size, was there
3 anything else on those boxes?
4 MR. WEINER:
5 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, you heard the Judge's question. Was there any
6 notations or anything about those boxes which indicated to you that they
7 contained weapons?
8 A. These were standard cases into which weapons of the kind that I
9 mentioned were put. They were standard-issue cases. They were made
10 specifically for the transportation of weapons of that kind.
11 Q. Having served in the army for, at that point for 12 years, had you
12 ever seen those kind of standard cases at any of the military bases which
13 you served on?
14 A. Of course. I had an opportunity to see them, carry them, and all
15 other kinds of things. It was indisputably like those other cases. They
16 were the real cases, the original cases. There's no doubt about it.
17 Q. Now, that time when you saw them, I know it was dark and these
18 were being unloaded in the night-time, but were you able to see any
19 markings or were you able to determine from the licence plates on the
20 trucks where either the boxes came from or where those trucks came from?
21 A. Since the weapons were being unloaded off the end of the truck,
22 when you open the back of the truck, the licence plates get covered, so I
23 couldn't see them. I couldn't see what the licence plates were. On the
24 cases themselves, I didn't see any letters, but I know that those were
25 cases for housing semi-automatic and automatic rifles.
1 Q. Did you or any of your friends or colleagues speak to any persons
2 in the town or in those surrounding villages who indicated that they were
3 receiving weapons at that time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what did they tell you, your friends, or your colleagues about
6 receiving weapons?
7 A. Since there were also members of my ethnicity that belonged to
8 these units, and I didn't know that the unit was called the 4th Detachment
9 at the time, some of them informed me regularly about the events when the
10 weapons would arrive, who would get the weapons, who the members of this
11 unit were, and so forth.
12 Q. Now, were you able to learn whether any of the political parties
13 were involved in the distribution of weapons?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And which political parties did you learn were involved in
16 distributing these weapons, or automatic rifles?
17 A. I heard about it and I was convinced of it myself. This party was
18 called the Movement for Yugoslavia. And at the later stages, the SDP also
19 did that, that is to say, the party -- I think the Social Democratic
21 Q. Now, in which villages were these automatic weapons being
23 A. As I said, the weapons were distributed in Serbian villages. I
24 can name some of them: Obudovac, Crkvina, Batkusa, Pisari, Skaric,
25 Kruskovo Polje, Brvnik.
1 Q. Were these distributed randomly or were these distributed on a
2 large scale, sir, if you know?
3 A. The weapons were distributed to the people who were on the reserve
4 force of the then Territorial Defence, to the residents in the Serb local
6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, it's 3.45. Would you like to take the
7 break now or ...
8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll take the break now and continue
9 our proceedings at 1615 hours.
10 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is continuing.
13 MR. WEINER:
14 Q. Okay. Good afternoon, Mr. Fitozovic. Now, when we left off, we
15 were talking about the distribution of arms in the Serb villages
16 surrounding Bosanski Samac. And was this done on a random basis or was
17 this being done on a large-scale basis? Were a lot of people receiving
18 guns or was it just a limit -- a person here, a person there?
19 A. In the Serb villages in the vicinity, in the municipality of
20 Bosanski Samac, this was done publicly and en masse. In the town itself,
21 it was done more discreetly.
22 Q. And did you continue to hear these rumours over a several-month
23 period, of weapons being distributed to Serb civilians?
24 A. Yes, I did continue to hear such rumours, and I also continued to
25 listen and to observe. On several occasions I visited the area, I mean
1 the Serb villages.
2 Q. And what were you able to learn?
3 A. On one occasion during my working hours I went to the local
4 commune of Obudovac, and at the local cooperative I noticed a large number
5 of people wearing the uniforms of the former JNA. Then, in the area of
6 Barice - that was a farm in Obudovac - I saw a certain number of guns,
7 cannons, Howitzers, mortars, tanks. And then when I visited the other
8 part of the municipality, in the Kruskovo Polje local commune, there were
9 also tanks located there. Then in the local commune of Skaric, which is
10 close to close to Bosanski Samac itself, there were mortars there.
11 Q. Now, let's take this a step at a time. Obudovac, where you saw
12 some of these large guns and you saw some -- or you saw tanks and large
13 guns and you saw some JNA troops, what is the ethnic composition of that
15 A. 100 per cent Serb population lived in that village.
16 Q. What about in the other area that you saw these mortars, in
18 A. It was also a Serb village.
19 Q. How many mortars do you recall seeing in the village of Skaric?
20 A. I think around six.
21 Q. And were these pointing in a particular direction?
22 A. Yes. They were pointing in the direction of Bosanski Samac.
23 Q. And how far was Bosanski Samac from the village of Skaric?
24 A. As the crow flies, around 4 kilometres.
25 Q. And is 4 kilometres within mortar range?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, troops being stationed in Obudovac, JNA troops, is that
3 usual? Was that something that was common?
4 A. That was not usual, in view of the fact that there wasn't a
5 barracks in Obudovac or in any other local commune in the territory of the
6 Bosanski Samac municipality, nor were there any permanent military
7 installations where the troops would be housed.
8 Q. What about having large guns, tanks, mortars in the villages
9 surrounding Bosanski Samac? Was that normal? Was that common or usual?
10 A. No, that was not usual. This kind of equipment, I mean tanks and
11 Howitzers, that was something that belonged to the units of the former
13 Q. Had you ever had that type of equipment in that area, in the
14 former TO, or stationed in that area, previously?
15 A. No. The TO never had any tanks, Howitzers, and other weapons.
16 Q. What were you thinking when you saw the troops and all this
17 weaponry, this heavy weaponry, in the area surrounding Bosanski Samac?
18 A. Could you please repeat your question?
19 Q. What were you thinking or how did you feel when you saw all of
20 this weaponry, this heavy weaponry, tanks and mortars, in the areas
21 surrounding Bosanski Samac?
22 A. Well, naturally, I didn't feel comfortable, and nor did the other
23 residents in Bosanski Samac municipality, Muslims and Croats alike. It
24 looked like something that had been seen before in the territory of the
25 Republic of Croatia.
1 Q. Was that prior to the war there?
2 A. I didn't understand your question. Could you please repeat it?
3 Q. You said that it looked like something that you had seen before in
4 the Republic of Croatia. Are you talking about the build-up of arms in
5 the Republic of Croatia prior to the war occurring in Croatia?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, let's continue a little bit back, speaking of Croatia. Had
8 you been to Croatia at the end of the summer of 1991?
9 A. Yes. I spent my vacation in Croatia.
10 Q. And where were you in Croatia?
11 A. I was in Tuheljske Toplice spa.
12 Q. And at some point did you return home to Bosnia from Croatia?
13 A. Yes. After my vacation, I headed back to Bosnia.
14 Q. And in what mode of transportation did you return to Bosnia?
15 A. I returned on a bus. That was the Zagreb-Tuzla line.
16 Q. And approximately on what date did you return to Croatia - I'm
17 sorry - did you return to Bosnia?
18 A. It may have been around the 22nd of August, thereabouts.
19 Q. And did something happen to you on that trip back to Bosnia?
20 A. Yes, something unpleasant happened. In the town of Okucani, or
21 Novi Varos -- Okucani.
22 Q. And where is Okucani related -- I'm sorry, located? Where is
23 Okucani located? Is it in Croatia or is it in Bosnia?
24 A. Okucani is in Croatia.
25 Q. And tell the Court what happened -- please tell the Court what
1 happened in Okucani?
2 A. On the way back to Bosnia, on the motor way in Okucani, we were
3 stopped by the reservists of the Yugoslav People's Army, and some other
4 soldiers who were probably doing their national service in the JNA, and
5 also they were the professional soldiers. They stopped the bus and made
6 us get off the bus, all of us. There may have been about 40 or 45 of us
7 on the bus. All were men. They checked our ID cards and they established
8 that the majority of the persons aboard the bus were Muslims. In fact,
9 the bus that I took was the bus used by the people originally from Bosnia
10 who worked in Croatia. They used this service to go home, and by
11 coincidence, I also took this bus. And by coincidence, most of the people
12 on the bus were Muslims. I wore jeans and a white shirt, which was
13 transparent. It had a breast pocket on the left side. Since I smoked at
14 the time, I had a pack of cigarettes in this pocket, and the brand of
15 cigarettes was Croatia. A reservist approached me, tore the pocket off,
16 and hit me here in the neck with his fist. And I had a haemotoma there as
17 a result, and also there was some bleeding, so the collar of the shirt was
18 slightly stained with blood.
19 After a certain period of time, we managed to reach Slavonski
20 Brod, using some auxiliary roads. I got off the bus in Slavonski Brod and
21 called my friend from a phone booth, a friend in Bosanski Samac. His name
22 was Muris Focakovic, nicknamed Murat, and he picked me up in Slavonski
24 Q. Okay. Just to clarify this a little bit. When you were stopped,
25 had the Serb military taken over that town in Croatia?
1 A. I think that maybe on that day that the Serb military did take
2 that town. I don't know whether it was on that day or the day after. I'm
3 not quite sure.
4 Q. Now, you also said that there were JNA soldiers, reservists and
5 regulars. Were there any soldiers from Serbia that you noticed by way of
6 their dress?
7 A. Yes. Since until that time I had lots of dealings with the army,
8 I mean the legitimate army, I saw the difference between the soldiers who
9 belonged to the regular units of the JNA, and I was able to distinguish
10 the persons belonging to the reserve force. They did not have the type of
11 clothes that the JNA soldiers at that time wore. They wore beards. Some
12 of them used the Ekavian dialect.
13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I wonder, Mr. Weiner, whether you could find out
14 from the witness whether he went on holiday to Croatia on his own, was he
15 married at the time, with the two children at the time? Did they remain
16 in Bosanski Samac? Did they go to Croatia on holiday, and so on.
17 MR. WEINER:
18 Q. You heard the Judge's question. Did you go to Croatia on your own
19 or were you with your family?
20 A. I took the vacation on my own. My family was at the seaside at
21 the time, and I went to the spa.
22 Q. And just --
23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just one supplemental question, just to confirm
24 what you said, because I can't find it in the transcript. The bus that
25 you were returning on from Croatia to Bosnia, all the passengers were male
1 and there were no children; is that correct?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no children. All the
3 passengers were male. I know that for sure.
4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
5 MR. WEINER:
6 Q. And these men with the long beards who spoke the Ekavian accent,
7 they let you go eventually?
8 A. They let us go. They searched the luggage, searching for things
9 of interest to them. The luggage contained my personal belongings, and so
10 did the luggage of other passengers. So they let us go, but we took the
11 side roads. We did not continue on on the motorway.
12 Q. Now, in addition to the long beards and speaking with an Ekavian
13 accent, did they also have those cockade hats, those black cockade hats?
14 A. Yes. They also had this type of gear.
15 Q. And that's consistent with them being from Serbia, is it not,
16 between the dress and the accent?
17 A. Yes. It looked like they were from Serbia. In fact, I'm quite
18 familiar with the way they speak, because my mother was born in Serbia and
19 I went to my mother's birthplace quite often, and they spoke in the same
21 Q. All right. Now, that was August of 1991. Let's move to the
22 fall. During the fall or autumn of 1991, basically September, October,
23 and even into November, were you hearing any other rumours relating to
24 reservists in Bosanski Samac? Did you hear any rumours about reservists?
25 A. The situation in early September began to be more complex as
1 regards the interethnic tolerance and also some unknown persons were
2 spotted in the town. They wore civilian clothes, but we didn't know them.
3 Q. But did you hear any rumours about reservists being sent to
4 certain places, reservists from Bosanski Samac and the surrounding
6 A. In view of the fact that after my vacation I started working
7 again, I remember very well that on the 1st or 2nd of September, I heard
8 at work that some people of Serb ethnic background were going to Serbia to
9 get additional training or some kind of specialist training.
10 Q. And where were they being sent after they received specialist
11 training in Serbia, these people from Bosanski Samac, after they were sent
12 to Serbia for special training, where were they then sent?
13 A. After completing specialist training in Serbia, then the next
14 contingent would go to receive the training, and the individuals who
15 completed the course, or the specialist course, would go to the front line
16 in the Republic of Croatia.
17 Q. Where were the front lines in Croatia at that time that they were
18 sending the people from Bosanski Samac?
19 A. The nearest front line was in Vukovar, and that's where they
20 went. They went to fight in Vukovar.
21 Q. Now, these rumours that you heard about Serbs from Bosanski Samac
22 being sent to Serbia for training and then being sent to Vukovar in
23 Croatia to fight, were you able to confirm any of this in September or
24 October of 1992?
25 A. Could you please repeat your question?
1 Q. Were you ever able to confirm these rumours that people from
2 Bosanski Samac were being sent to Serbia for training and then being sent
3 to Croatia to fight, to Vukovar, Croatia, to fight? Were you ever able to
4 confirm that?
5 A. Well, I was able to confirm that during my usual activities at
6 work. Some people from my company went to have this specialist training
7 and then to the Vukovar theatre.
8 Q. Okay. Could you tell the Court, or can we --
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, before you proceed, if you look at line
10 18, that's page 41, when you asked the question about him hearing rumours
11 about Serbs from Bosanski Samac being sent to Serbia for training, you
12 mentioned September/October 1992. Is that the correct year?
13 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Sir, I -- when I spoke -- when I asked you a question, I said in
15 September/October of 1992. We're speaking of September or October of
16 1991; isn't that correct?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 MR. WEINER: All right. Sorry about that.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
20 MR. WEINER:
21 Q. Now, you said that some men, young men from your company, and
22 that's the electrical distribution plant, or the electrical power plant,
23 were sent for training and then sent to Vukovar. Could you tell us their
24 names, if you can recall them, those young men that were sent?
25 A. Savo Bajic was absent from work for a certain period of time. He
1 is from Crkvina. Then Bosko Marinkovic and Stojan Milicevic. They
2 were -- they did not go at the same time. One of them would go and then
3 when he returned, another one would go. And they were absent from the
4 company for a certain period of time.
5 Q. And when you said they were absent, are we talking about a few
6 days or are we talking about months?
7 A. Several months. Some of them I didn't see from September of that
8 year up until today.
9 Q. And were you able to learn where they were?
10 A. Yes. I found out where they were.
11 Q. And you found out that they were out there fighting in Croatia?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. Let us move along in the fall of 1991. Did you know a
14 man by the name of Sulejman Tihic?
15 A. Yes, I knew Sulejman Tihic.
16 Q. And how long had you known Sulejman Tihic?
17 A. For about 30 years, maybe even longer than that.
18 Q. And in 1991, did he hold any position in any party in Bosanski
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What position did he hold? Sorry.
22 A. He was the president of the Party of Democratic Action of the
23 municipality of Samac.
24 Q. Now, sometime early in that month, did you happen to meet or see
25 Sulejman Tihic early in the month of September 1991?
1 A. Yes. I saw him frequently.
2 Q. And did you have some conversation concerning the SDA party?
3 A. Yes. We talked daily about political events of the day, about the
4 safety situation in the town, and so forth.
5 Q. And sometime while you were talking, did he approach you about
6 joining the SDA party?
7 A. Yes, he did. He asked me to join the party of the SDA, the Party
8 of the Democratic Action.
9 Q. And did he offer you a position in the party if you were to join?
10 A. Yes. He told me that as the president of the party, he had the
11 right - and this was part of his presidential duties - he had the right to
12 make me a member of the city council of the party.
13 Q. And did you agree to join?
14 A. Yes, I agreed, and I joined the SDA. Immediately after that, I
15 also became a member of the city council of the SDA.
16 Q. And that was in September of 1991?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. Now, also in that month, were you given any other appointment by
19 the SDA?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what appointment were you given in addition to the town board
22 or city council?
23 A. When I became a town board member, I was named to become a member
24 of the Executive Council of the SDA for Bosanski Samac.
25 Q. And that appointment to the Executive Council, was that also in
2 A. Yes. All this happened very quickly.
3 Q. Now, did you receive any other appointments from the SDA party in
4 September of 1991?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Tell the Court what other appointment you received?
7 A. Within this Executive Council of the SDA, there were certain
8 commissions, and I was made the president of the security safety
9 commission of the SDA, and this was on the municipality level.
10 Q. Were you appointed by Sulejman Tihic to that, or were you
11 appointed by the town council or the Executive Council to that position,
12 the executive board?
13 A. The executive board of the SDA.
14 Q. How many people were on this commission on security and safety?
15 A. There were three men in this commission.
16 Q. And did you hold a particular role on that commission?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What position?
19 A. I was the president of this commission for security.
20 Q. What did the commission for security and safety do? What was
21 their role?
22 A. Its role was predominantly to estimate the situation in the town,
23 in the municipality, and generally in that part of Bosnian Posavina.
24 Q. Who else was on that committee, if you recall?
25 A. I can't remember. This was a long time ago.
1 Q. Now, after you were to analyse or review the security situation in
2 the town and surrounding areas of the Posavina, were you to report to
3 anyone your findings?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And who were you to report to your findings?
6 A. My findings I first reported to the Executive Council, that is to
7 say, the president of the Executive Council, and that office was held by
8 Sulejman Tihic.
9 Q. Now, let's continue in September 1991. Did you make a decision in
10 relation to establishing a military unit?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You decided to establish your own military unit?
13 A. No, not a personal military unit. On the executive board, I told
14 Sulejman Tihic, the president of SDA, that the situation in the town, in
15 municipality, and in the region was very complex, that there was a lot of
16 weapons surrounding us, that Serbs were armed, and it was clear that none
17 of us Muslims were armed. And at that time I told Tihic -- I told him the
18 following: If he wanted me, I would still be the president of the safety
19 commission, but I wanted him to get some arms so that we could also have
20 some weapons.
21 Q. Now, in addition to that conversation with Mr. Tihic, you wanted
22 weapons for what? Were you putting together a military unit?
23 A. Yes. My intention was to create a unit whose purpose would be to
24 defend the town.
25 Q. Now, had any local citizens from Bosanski Samac or the surrounding
1 area approached you about putting together a military unit?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Now, when you told Sulejman Tihic that you needed weapons, how did
4 he respond, when you asked him if he could get you some weapons?
5 A. He got scared from my idea.
6 Q. Did you have a similar conversation with Izet Izetbegovic?
7 A. He was there when I suggested this.
8 Q. And were they both scared when you asked them about supplying
10 A. Yes. They were both scared. But it's true that Izetbegovic
11 wasn't as worried.
12 Q. So he seemed less worried than Sulejman Tihic?
13 A. Yes, he was less worried than Sulejman Tihic.
14 Q. Now, this unit that you were putting together to protect the town,
15 was this going to be a unit of the SDA party?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Was this going to be a unit of the HDZ party?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Was it going to be a unit tied to any political party?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Was it a unit tied to an ethnic organisation or an ethnic group?
22 I'm sorry.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Who was going to be invited into this, if you want to call it,
25 independent military unit to protect the town of Bosanski Samac?
1 A. All the citizens of Bosanski Samac. That means Serbs, Croats, and
2 Muslims alike.
3 Q. Was this unit going to be similar to or different from the unit
4 that was later developed called the 4th Detachment?
5 A. It was supposed to be different from this unit which had already
6 existed in the town.
7 Q. Why was the independent unit that you were developing going to be
8 different from that of the 4th Detachment?
9 A. Well, first of all, this unit would have preserved the town the
10 way it was, that is to say, it would have remained a multi-ethnic town and
11 part of the state of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 Q. What, in your view, was the goal of the 4th Detachment, then?
13 A. The goal of the 4th Detachment was to turn this area of Bosanski
14 Samac into a Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac, and it was supposed
15 to become a part of some Republika Srpska, which now exists.
16 Q. And what's the basis of your opinion that the 4th Detachment was
17 trying to turn Bosanski Samac into a Serbian municipality?
18 A. You mean it was supposed to be turned into a Serbian municipality?
19 Q. Yes. You indicated that your unit was an independent military
20 unit to protect the town of Bosanski Samac and keep it the way it was.
21 However, the 4th Detachment, you indicated, was different in that it was
22 supposed to -- that it was trying to turn Bosanski Samac into a Republika
23 Srpska, as it now exists. Why did you believe the 4th Detachment wanted
24 to change Bosanski Samac and turn it into a Serbian municipality?
25 A. For the following reason: As I said, the surrounding Serb
1 villages were armed, all of them, all of the Serb villages. The town
2 itself was also armed. All the Serbs in the town were armed, and also the
3 4th Detachment was armed by the JNA. There was also some kind of a
4 Territorial Defence that had nothing at all. There were only two men
5 there, two figureheads, but all the warehouses were empty. The JNA had
6 previously emptied those warehouses and distributed the arms to the Serbs.
7 Q. All right. You indicated that Mr. Tihic and Mr. Izetbegovic were
8 nervous and worried about arming the unit. Were you afraid of arming this
9 unit that you were establishing, this independent unit to protect Bosanski
11 A. I was not afraid.
12 Q. Why not?
13 A. I can say freely that it was for the following reason: I was a
14 soldier. I had certain amount of military knowledge.
15 Q. Now, did you go ahead and establish a unit?
16 A. Yes, I did later.
17 Q. How many men were in this unit in the beginning?
18 A. There were about 80 men.
19 Q. And eventually, by December of 1991, how many men were in this
21 A. Well, somewhere around 80 men. At the very beginning there were
22 about 80, and then in December there were about 200 men.
23 Q. Were all of these men of the Muslim ethnic group?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Were these all members of the SDA?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were there people of other ethnic groups in this unit?
3 A. Yes. There were people of other ethnic groups there as well.
4 There were Croats, there were Albanians.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last portion of
6 the answer.
7 MR. WEINER:
8 Q. Could you repeat what you said after "Albanians"?
9 A. There were also Gypsies.
10 Q. Were there any persons from mixed marriages in the unit?
11 A. Yes. There was even one member who was from a Serbo-Croat
13 Q. Now, did you have enough weapons to give to all of these members
14 of this incident army in the beginning, in September/October?
15 A. No, I did not have enough weapons.
16 Q. When you started this unit, did everyone -- sorry. When you
17 started this unit, did you have any weapons to give out?
18 A. Not in the first stage. Later I had about -- well, actually, not
19 about; exactly 20 automatic rifles.
20 Q. We'll get to that. But in the beginning, was every member given a
21 rifle or a gun or a weapon of some kind upon joining?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, sir, sometime later - we won't get into specifics yet - but
24 sometime later, were you able to acquire or procure weapons for this unit?
25 A. Yes. As I said, later I managed to procure 20 automatic rifles.
1 They were originally manufactured in the Second World War.
2 Q. Well, let's go to October of 1991. Do you recall procuring 30
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. What is a Genscher?
6 A. This is a type of automatic rifle made in Germany, and that's
7 probably why it's called what it is.
8 Q. Were these older automatic weapons? Were these the ones that were
9 made during world war two?
10 A. Yes. These were older weapons.
11 Q. Were these purchased from a government agency?
12 A. No, they weren't bought.
13 Q. How did you acquire them?
14 A. Privately, through private channels.
15 Q. Were these purchased by the SDA or any other political party?
16 A. No. The SDA didn't buy them. The president himself was scared of
17 that, as I said, at the beginning.
18 Q. And once you got these 30 older automatic weapons, what did you do
19 with them?
20 A. I distributed these weapons to those members that I considered
22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Weiner. I wonder whether the
23 witness could tell us if these Genschers were purchased privately, through
24 private channels, and the SDA didn't buy them, who provided the financing
25 to buy these weapons which were purchased privately and not from a
1 government agency? So where did the money come from?
2 MR. WEINER:
3 Q. The question from Judge Williams was: If the SDA didn't buy them,
4 who provided the financing for the purchase -- for the private purchase of
5 these weapons?
6 A. I wasn't talking about any finances. I just said that I procured
7 these weapons privately. I might have stolen them, for example.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, shouldn't that be cleared.
9 MR. WEINER: Yes. I'm working on that.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: I mean, if he did steal them, then he better say so.
11 MR. WEINER:
12 Q. Could you tell us -- or let's take a step back. Were you involved
13 in the finances with relation to these firearms or guns?
14 A. No, I was not involved.
15 Q. Do you know any of the details of the financing -- of the finances
16 of the procurement of these guns?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know how these guns were procured?
19 A. I don't know how it was procured.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, we can't have that type of answer when
21 he had just said that he procured these weapons privately.
22 MR. WEINER: Let me -- I'm going to get to that.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
24 MR. WEINER:
25 Q. Did you personally procure these weapons?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And the Court would like to know how you procured them.
3 A. Mr. Izet Izetbegovic helped me with this.
4 Q. Did he handle the financial end, if there was one?
5 A. I really don't know. I didn't get involved with the finances.
6 All I asked for was the weapons.
7 Q. And Mr. Izet Izetbegovic somehow obtained them or procured them?
8 A. Yes. He procured it and I took it from him.
9 Q. And do you have any idea how or where he obtained them?
10 A. I really don't know.
11 MR. WEINER: Any further questions from the panel?
12 JUDGE MUMBA: No.
13 MR. WEINER: Let's continue.
14 Q. Were you able to procure weapons in November of 1991?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell the Court how you procured weapons in November of
18 A. Yes. In November 1991, a truck with Slovenian licence plates, or
19 Ljubljana licence plates - I know that the name of the company was Viator.
20 That's what it said on the canvas top - transported weapons across the
21 bridge on the River Sava, and the vehicle broke down in the area between
22 the railway station and the bus station.
23 Q. After it broke down, did someone notify you that this truck had
24 broken down?
25 A. Yes. They found me in the town and they informed me about the
1 situation, about the fact that a truck had broken down in the area between
2 the railway station and the bus station in Bosanski Samac and that the
3 driver had insisted that the truck be towed away in order to be repaired
4 or that some other action be taken.
5 Q. Did you go out and meet with the driver?
6 A. Yes. I went there to see what was going on, and then I learned
7 that the truck had weapons for Sarajevo or for Central Bosnia and that
8 assistance was needed.
9 Q. And did you render that assistance?
10 A. Yes. I helped them.
11 Q. Tell us what you did.
12 A. I told the young man to find Smail Smailovic, who was a truck
13 driver employed in the veterinary station in Bosanski Samac. The truck
14 owned by the veterinary station in Bosanski Samac was the same size as the
15 truck that had broken down. They found Smail Smailovic - I think his last
16 name is Smailovic- he did as I told him and took the truck from the
17 veterinary station, and we towed the truck, I mean the truck with the
18 Slovenian licence plates, and we offloaded the weapons and loaded them
19 onto the truck that belonged to the veterinary station.
20 Q. As a result of helping them by towing the truck, unloading the
21 weapons, loading them -- getting them in other vehicle, where you loaded
22 the weapons into another vehicle, did they give you any sort of reward?
23 A. Yes, of course. That was the deal that was struck immediately.
24 We took two crates with the weapons.
25 Q. And how many weapons were in the two crates?
1 A. There were 20 automatic rifles.
2 Q. And did this Smail Smailovic drive these to some place in Bosnia,
3 not the 20, but the remaining weapons, for those people from Slovenia?
4 A. Yes. It drove to its final destination. I don't know what it
5 was, nor was I interested in finding that out.
6 Q. And as an aside, this Smail Smailovic, was he the gentleman who,
7 some month later, drove Tota Ramusovic to the hospital after he was shot?
8 A. Who?
9 Q. Tota.
10 A. No. No. No. That's not the Smajl.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, these two boxes of automatic rifles that
12 you got --
13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Weiner. I'm not sure whether the
14 last answer makes sense when you were asked about Tota being driven to the
15 hospital and the answer is: "No, no, no. That's not the Smajl." Maybe
16 you can clarify.
17 MR. WEINER: Okay.
18 Q. Some months later, in February or March - and we're going to be
19 talking about it later - there was a shoot-out where Danilo and Tota
20 Ramusovic were shot, and someone drove them to the doctor or the
21 hospital. Was that another Smajl or was that this Smajl, Smail Smailovic?
22 A. That was not Smail Smailovic. That was another man --
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. -- who drove Tota and the rest to the hospital.
25 Q. Now, with regard to this transfer of weapons, you were notified
1 that this truck had become disabled and your help was needed to tow the
2 truck away and transfer the weapons and get another truck to carry the
3 weapons off. Did Sulejman Tihic, Izet Izetbegovic, or any member of the
4 SDA notify you that this truck was disabled?
5 A. No. I was not informed by Sulejman Tihic or by Izet Izetbegovic.
6 I was notified by a member of our unit. He told me that the truck had
7 broken down and he found me in the town.
8 Q. So is it fair to say that the SDA and HDZ and the political
9 parties had nothing to do with this incident relating to the transfer of
10 weapons and assisting the disabled truck?
11 A. First of all, I don't regard this to be an incident, and I also
12 say that the SDA and the HDZ did not have anything to do with the weapons.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
14 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have an objection to
15 the manner in which my learned colleague is conducting the examination,
16 because -- and this is not the first time he's asking leading questions.
17 Perhaps he could ask who notified him about the incident with the truck
18 and not to lead the witness in this way, by supplying the answer.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
20 MR. WEINER: A leading question is one that supplies the exact
21 answer, which the witness will then respond to. If I ask him whether or
22 not Izet Izetbegovic or Sulejman Tihic had anything to do with this, it
23 could be yes, it could be no, it could be possibly, it could be both of
24 them. I've got to lead them to somebody as having --
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, meaning that the question itself would be
1 suggestive of the answer.
2 MR. WEINER: Correct. If I said -- if knowing that, let's say,
3 Mr. X was involved, and I said: Wasn't Mr. X involved? And his only
4 answer is yes, Mr. X was involved. That's leading. This is -- I'm asking
5 about a specific area. It's not -- slightly leading, but it's not --
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Not strictly a leading question.
7 MR. WEINER: Correct.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. All right. You can proceed.
9 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
10 Q. Let's move on, sir, to December of 1991. As of that time, how
11 many weapons had you procured?
12 A. Fifty pieces.
13 Q. Now, had -- on each procurement -- let's start off with October-
14 were you given ammunition with these guns?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Not on each. Let's take the one in October. When you got
17 the 30 German rifles, automatic rifles, from World War II. Were you given
18 any ammunition at that time to go with those rifles?
19 A. Yes, we did receive a small quantity, about 15 bullets per each
21 Q. All right. Let's go to the next procurement. In November, when
22 you received a gift of 20 rifles, were you given any ammunition at that
23 time with those 20 automatic rifles?
24 A. No, we didn't get any ammunition, because the truck did not carry
25 any ammunition.
1 Q. Okay.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to object to the
4 formulation of the question on page 57, line 18. The Prosecutor said
5 that -- talked about a gift, and the witness himself said that it was the
6 result of a deal on the -- involving the repair of the truck. So I would
7 like to have the question rephrased.
8 MR. WEINER: I'll use the word "receipt" of the weapons.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. I think I can see what the counsel
10 is protesting about. You are suggesting that it was a gift. Yes. Can
11 you rephrase your question.
12 MR. WEINER: All right.
13 Q. In November, when you received these 20 automatic rifles, did you
14 receive -- I'm just asking you this again for the record - did you receive
15 any ammunition with those 20 rifles?
16 A. No, we did not receive any ammunition.
17 Q. Now, you've started this military unit to protect the town of
18 Bosanski Samac. What were the functions, other than protecting Bosanski
19 Samac? What type of functions was this unit performing in
20 September/October - basically September through the end of the year? What
21 type of functions was the unit performing?
22 A. During the night, the unit manned two checkpoints. During the
23 day, it observed the town. So that in this manner we gathered information
24 about the movements of the JNA units, of the reservists, and finally,
25 members of the 4th Detachment.
1 Q. Let's start with the daytime. Did you have patrols during the
3 A. Yes. We patrolled the town in daytime in order to see whether
4 there have been any changes in the town, whether any people from the
5 outside had come in, whether there were any armed people, any people in
6 uniform there, whether any troops were passing through the town or around
7 the town. By that I mean the JNA or the reservists. And so on. Simply,
8 we observed the town.
9 Q. Why were you making these observations? Had there been some
10 change in the area in the last several months?
11 A. Yes. All kinds of things were happening in the town. There were
12 people from abroad, who were not from the municipality of Bosanski Samac.
13 Some people in uniforms were passing through. There were also some cases
14 of verbal insults being traded, things like that.
15 Q. Now, how many patrols did you have in the daytime?
16 A. We patrolled throughout the day.
17 Q. And how many patrols did you have? Was it one patrol, two, three,
18 four, five?
19 A. Two or three patrols.
20 Q. And how many people were in each one of these patrolling groups?
21 A. There would be two men in each.
22 Q. And did you just patrol the town of Bosanski Samac or did you --
23 were the villagers also patrolled?
24 A. Sometimes in the villages too, but mostly in the town itself.
25 Q. And what did they do with this information concerning people that
1 they had seen and anything that they had noted? What would they do with
2 this information?
3 A. The information was relayed to me.
4 Q. These patrols, these two or three men -- these two or three --
5 two-man patrols, were they armed?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were any of the daytime patrols armed?
8 A. No, never. No daytime patrol ever had arms.
9 Q. Were these walking patrols or were these people in vehicles?
10 A. The patrols in the town were on foot. Like all the other
11 civilians, they were virtually indistinguishable from other civilians,
12 other citizens. We called them the patrols.
13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I'd like to ask the witness a question. So these
14 daytime patrols, were they under a commander? If they were in groups of
15 two or three or four, was one of them in charge of each little patrol?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No one was in command of the
17 others. There would be just two men. They would go there together and
18 they had the same task. Nobody was in charge of anybody else.
19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And I just have one other question. You state,
20 page 60, line 7, that they were virtually indistinguishable from other
21 civilians." My question is: Virtually indistinguishable? Were they in
22 some way distinguishable, by perhaps wearing a special item of clothing or
23 having a badge or insignia of some type? So I would like to know: Were
24 they in some way distinguishable by what they were wearing or some
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not distinguishable in any
2 way. They wore civilian clothes, just like all the other citizens who
3 happened to be in the town in any given location, in a cafe, in the
4 street, in a shop, and so on. They could not be distinguished from the
5 rest of the population. They could only be distinguished from the
6 soldiers, because they did not wear any uniforms.
7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
8 MR. WEINER:
9 Q. Now, did these daytime patrols ever set up any checkpoints or
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did they ever stop vehicles?
13 A. No, never.
14 Q. What about pedestrians? Did they ever stop pedestrians?
15 A. No pedestrian was ever stopped or had his or her ID checked.
16 Q. Did you or the police ever receive a complaint about any of these
18 A. No, we never received any complaints.
19 Q. Were these people ever involved in an incident of violence or
20 crime of any kind?
21 A. No, never. They were not criminals. These were just ordinary
22 citizens who had this duty to patrol the town.
23 Q. Did the general public even know that they were out there
24 patrolling and watching events in the town?
25 A. The public knew about the night-time patrols, but they didn't know
1 about the daytime patrols.
2 Q. All right. Let's go to the night-time patrols. What type of
3 patrols and units did you have out there in the night-time?
4 A. In the night-time we had two patrols stationed at the entrance to
5 the town: one on the east entrance, and the other was stationed on the
6 south entrance to the town, from the direction of Crkvina and Tisina and
7 Slavonski Samac, or from the direction of the railway station. It was set
8 up at an intersection, or, to be more specific, it was stationed by the
9 Muslim and Catholic cemeteries.
10 Q. Now, were these patrols that were stationed in those two areas,
11 were these people on foot or were they in vehicles?
12 A. Those patrols were in passenger cars.
13 Q. How many people would be in a passenger car?
14 A. On a night-time patrol there would be three men in a passenger
16 Q. And what would they be doing?
17 A. Their task was to control, to observe visually the persons
18 entering or exiting the town, any movements of the troops that I mentioned
19 earlier, any activities on the part of the 4th Detachment, and so on.
20 They were stationary, and one was stationed next to the hospital, and the
21 other, as I have already said, next to the Muslim and Catholic cemeteries.
22 Q. Were these people armed?
23 A. Yes. The night-time patrols were armed.
24 Q. Did they stop vehicles?
25 A. No. They never stopped any vehicle.
1 Q. What about pedestrians? Did they ever stop pedestrians?
2 A. No, no pedestrian was ever stopped.
3 Q. Did they ever set up roadblocks?
4 A. Could you please repeat the question?
5 Q. I'm sorry. Did they ever set up any roadblocks?
6 A. No, they never set up any roadblocks.
7 Q. Did they ever stop persons in any manner to check for
9 A. No. Our patrols did not do that.
10 Q. Had you ever received or had the police ever received any
11 complaints about those vehicles that were -- the people in the vehicles
12 that were watching, observing what was happening in the town?
13 A. No, we did not receive any complaints. Quite the contrary. The
14 citizens themselves commended us in a way. They said that they felt much
15 more secure knowing that there were such patrols around.
16 Q. Had they ever made any citizen arrests of any kind?
17 A. No, they never arrested anyone, because it was not their task to
18 do so.
19 Q. What about disarming anyone? Did they ever disarm or remove a
20 weapon from anyone?
21 A. They never disarmed anyone.
22 Q. So they were just your eyes and ears on the roadway, if you want
23 to call it that?
24 A. Yes, and that was their only task.
25 Q. Now, in addition to these vehicular patrols, did you have any
1 other, let's say, foot patrols or patrols outside of these roadways during
2 the evenings?
3 A. Yes. There were night-time patrols in the town that had the same
4 task as the daytime patrols, that is, to walk around the town. They were
5 not armed.
6 MR. WEINER: Your Honours, is it time now for the break?
7 JUDGE MUMBA: I keep looking at the clock on the screen. Anyway,
8 we can have our break and resume at 1805.
9 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
10 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We proceed with the examination-in-chief.
13 MR. WEINER:
14 Q. Good afternoon. Now, when we left off before the break, we were
15 talking about walking patrols, or foot patrols, and these were in the
16 night-time and they were similar to the same type of patrols you had
17 during the day; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And one of these patrols, or a foot patrol would consist of how
20 many people during the night-time?
21 A. Two or three men.
22 Q. And how many evening foot patrols were there?
23 A. There were two patrols.
24 Q. Now, these foot patrols, during the evening, were they wearing any
25 type of uniform or any type of special clothing to differentiate
1 themselves from the public?
2 A. No, they didn't wear a uniform.
3 Q. Were they armed?
4 A. No, they were not armed.
5 Q. What about the two vehicular patrols that were watching people
6 entering and leaving Bosanski Samac? And you indicated that each of those
7 vehicle patrols had three people in the car. Were any of those six people
8 between the two cars armed? I'm sorry. Were any of those six people
9 between the two cars wearing uniforms?
10 A. No. They also did not wear uniforms.
11 Q. Now, these foot patrols, as best you know, was the public aware of
12 these foot patrols during the evening hours?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did they stop people on the street as part of these patrols?
15 A. No, they did not stop people on the streets.
16 Q. What about stopping vehicles?
17 A. No, they did not stop vehicles either.
18 Q. Did they ever approach citizens for an identification check?
19 A. No, they did not approach citizens for an identification check.
20 Q. What would these people be doing?
21 A. They would monitor the town, what was happening in the town, what
22 others were doing in the town.
23 Q. And if anything significant happened, who would they contact?
24 A. They would contact me.
25 Q. Now, between the two checkpoints, or these foot patrols, was there
1 any liaison that would go between them during the evening, liaison or a
2 middle person, if you want to call them, that would go between the two
3 checkpoints or between the foot patrols, to make sure that everything was
4 all right?
5 A. Yes. There was a special personal vehicle that travelled from one
6 patrol to the other, from the one that was at the hospital to the other
7 patrol that was by the two cemeteries. This was a personal vehicle which
8 had a connection to both patrols, and also with the patrol that was in the
9 town, and this person would ask if there was any news, any observations,
10 and so forth.
11 Q. Now, the vehicles that were used at the two evening patrols, were
12 these private vehicles or were they military vehicles of some sort? What
13 type of vehicles were they?
14 A. This was a private passenger car. The private cars belonging to
15 the people were used, the people that were in the patrol that night. We
16 didn't have any military cars or other state vehicles. These were
17 privately owned vehicles.
18 Q. Was there ever any sort of insignia on the vehicle to indicate
19 that it was part of this independent military unit?
20 A. No. No, there was no insignia on any of the cars.
21 Q. Now, how long did these patrols last? They started, according to
22 your testimony, in the fall or the late fall -- mid- to late fall of
23 1991. How long did they last?
24 A. These patrols lasted until the aggression, that is to say, the
25 occupation of Bosanski Samac.
1 Q. So until April 17th of 1992?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, at the same time that you have these patrols, were there any
4 Serb patrols or checkpoints in Bosanski Samac and the surrounding area?
5 A. Yes, there were Serb checkpoints in Bosanski Samac and in the
6 surrounding towns.
7 Q. Where were the checkpoints? Please tell the Court.
8 A. One checkpoint was at the main road between Sarajevo and Samac,
9 close to the silo; the other checkpoint was in the local commune of
10 Crkvina, which is also on this main road Samac-Sarajevo; then there was a
11 control point on the regional road Samac-Orasje, in the local commune of
12 Srpska Tisina.
13 Q. Who manned these patrols, these Serbian patrols or checkpoints?
14 A. These checkpoints that I mentioned, and I said they were on the
15 main road, were manned by the JNA members and also the military police of
16 the former JNA, and the checkpoint on the regional road Samac-Orasje, in
17 the local commune of Srpska Tisina, was mostly manned by the villagers,
18 Serbs, and of course they were armed.
19 Q. Was the 4th Detachment involved in any of these checkpoints?
20 A. The 4th Detachment was not involved with the checkpoints on the
21 main road Samac-Sarajevo, nor was it involved with the checkpoint on the
22 regional road. Members of some other detachment were there.
23 Q. Were these checkpoints similar to your patrols, where they just
24 would sit there and observe what was happening?
25 A. No, they were not similar at all to our checkpoints.
1 Q. Tell us: How were they different from your checkpoints? What
2 were they doing at these three Serb checkpoints?
3 A. Contrary to our points, which were just observing and monitoring
4 what was happening and who was passing by, these checkpoints that I said
5 were on the main road of Samac to Sarajevo, and the regional road,
6 Samac-Orasje, people on these checkpoints would stop personal vehicles -
7 cars, trucks - they would ask people for their ID cards, and so forth.
8 Q. Would they stop buses?
9 A. Yes, they would also stop buses.
10 Q. Would they enter the buses and ask for identification cards?
11 A. Yes. They would enter buses and ask for ID cards.
12 Q. How were Muslims and Croats treated at these identification
13 points - I'm sorry - at these checkpoints?
14 A. After they determined that they were dealing with a Croat or a
15 Muslim who was passing these roads, the vehicles belonging to these people
16 would be searched. They would have to open up the trunk. They would take
17 a look at what was being carried and transferred, and so on. They would
18 take a look at what kind of material was being transferred. The trunk of
19 the car would have to be opened.
20 Q. And were these people treated properly and respectfully during
21 these searches?
22 A. I have information that they did not treat them properly and
23 respectfully, that they treated them with disrespect.
24 Q. If a person was stopped and they were of Serb ethnicity, how would
25 they be treated?
1 A. Those that they knew personally, they would just let them go, and
2 others, if they determined that the people were Serbs, would also be let
3 go. They would not search their vehicles.
4 Q. Were tolls ever requested, tolls or bribes, in order to pass
5 through this checkpoint or these checkpoints?
6 A. Yes, a toll had to be paid on the main road Samac-Sarajevo. On
7 this other local checkpoint in Srpska Tisina sometimes certain things
8 would be taken away, things that were valuable, but the tolls were not
9 collected, not on the regional road, but it was collected on the main
11 Q. What happened to this toll money that was collected, if you know?
12 A. This toll money that was collected would go to the Serbian
13 Democratic Party, which financed its military from this money.
14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, I presume we are going to find out
15 what is the basis of the information that Mr. Fitozovic has concerning all
16 of these points that have just been made?
17 MR. WEINER: That's my next question.
18 Q. With regard to -- let's start off with the tolls being collected.
19 How were you made aware that tolls were being collected, or whatever you
20 want to call them, charges, tolls, bribes, were being collected by people
21 at one of these checkpoints? Let's start off with that.
22 A. I found out about them from people that paid the tolls. And the
23 price wasn't set. It wasn't a fixed price. People had to pay whatever
24 they were asked to pay, whether it was a bus or a personal car or
25 something else.
1 Q. Now, the next question is: How did you know -- or how did you
2 learn that the money that was being collected, these charges or tolls,
3 went to the Serbian political party?
4 A. I found out about this from the members of the 4th Detachment.
5 Some of them informed me regularly on what was happening there. The 4th
6 Detachment also paid its members from this money.
7 Q. Let me -- I was going to discuss this a little bit later, but
8 let's take this issue up now. At some point after the 4th Detachment was
9 established, did you have one or more informers, if you want to call them,
10 within the 4th Detachment that was providing you with information as to
11 what was happening in that unit?
12 A. At the very beginning I had two men who were in the 4th Detachment
13 who regularly informed me on things. Later, as time went by, as the end
14 of the year was nearing and also as the aggression was coming closer, so
15 the number of the people was increasing.
16 Q. Now, a few last questions concerning these patrols or checkpoints,
17 Serbian checkpoints. How were these people dressed at these checkpoints,
18 the people who were manning them?
19 A. The people on the main road were dressed in typical, if I may say
20 so, uniforms of the JNA. Those on the checkpoint that was in Srpska
21 Tisina were sometimes dressed in camouflage uniforms and sometimes they
22 wore civilian clothes, but they always had weapons.
23 Q. And were the weapons visible?
24 A. Yes, the weapons were visible.
25 Q. Let's continue on to December of 1991. Did something happen to
1 your job in December of 1991?
2 A. Yes. At the end of 1991, on the 24th of December, to be exact, I
3 stopped working at my company.
4 Q. Did you voluntarily stop working or were you laid off?
5 A. I didn't stop working voluntarily.
6 Q. Did someone tell you why you were being laid off or let go?
7 A. Yes. I was told first that I was not fulfilling the conditions
8 for that job because you needed the seventh level for that kind of work,
9 so I wasn't fulfilling the conditions and I was laid off, although I did
10 all the work and I worked there for eight years.
11 Q. Now, when you say you needed this seventh level, do you mean you
12 needed a full engineering degree to handle that position as a chief?
13 A. Yes. I had to have an engineering degree, which I didn't have.
14 Q. Now, you had worked in that position for, you indicated, for eight
15 years. And how long had you worked at that company? I know some of it
16 was off and on. How long had you worked at the power distribution plant?
17 A. All together, I worked there for 12 years. Of that, I was a
18 manager for 11 years.
19 Q. Now, the person who replaced you, he was of what ethnic group? He
20 belonged to what ethnic group?
21 A. He was a Serb.
22 Q. Did he belong to any political parties?
23 A. Yes, he did.
24 Q. What political party did he belong to?
25 A. He belonged to the Serbian Radical Party.
1 Q. And who was the national leader of the Serbian Radical Party?
2 A. Vojislav Seselj, the Duke, was the leader.
3 Q. When you say "Duke," did he give himself the title of being a
4 Chetnik duke?
5 A. I don't know whether he gave the title to himself or perhaps
6 somebody from abroad had promoted him to that title.
7 Q. Now, this individual who replaced you, did he have an engineering
8 degree or was he at that seventh level of education, as you call it?
9 A. No, he did not meet the requirements for the post.
10 Q. Okay. Let us continue in December of 1991. Do you recall being
11 called to a reserve officers' meeting, being called to attend a reserve
12 officers' meeting?
13 A. Yes. In December I was called to the memorial home. Mitar
14 Mihajlovic [As interpreted], Uco, to attend a meeting of the reserve
15 officers of the Bosanski Samac municipality.
16 Q. Was there anyone there representing the JNA?
17 A. Yes. Representing the JNA there was Colonel Nikolic, then there
18 was also Captain Petrovic. I'm not quite sure about his name. There was
19 also Milos Bogdanovic and Simo Zaric.
20 Q. Now, where was Simo Zaric in relation to Colonel Nikolic? No,
21 no. Where was he sitting in relation to Colonel Nikolic at this meeting?
22 A. He sat right next to him. But I didn't quite understand why Simo
23 Zaric was there at all, because he did not belong to the group of the
24 reserve officers. As far as I know, he was not a reserve officer.
25 Q. Let's talk about this meeting. Just first list the names. Who
1 were the speakers at this meeting?
2 A. As far as I can remember, the first person to speak was Milos
3 Bogdanovic, then Colonel Nikolic spoke. The captain that I mentioned also
4 spoke, and so did Simo Zaric.
5 Q. Do you recall what Colonel Nikolic said when he spoke?
6 A. He said more or less the following: That there are enough weapons,
7 that there are enough men, but they felt that there weren't enough
8 officers, and that's why they had set up the meeting.
9 Q. In response to his -- or in addition to his comment of there not
10 being enough officers, military officers, even though they have enough
11 weapons and men, did he ask for anything?
12 A. He asked that all the reserve officers present there to place
13 themselves at the disposal of the 17th Tactical Group, each in the
14 specialty that they were trained for, where they would be in command and
15 control of certain units.
16 Q. Now, why were you there? Is it because -- or why don't you tell
17 me. Why were you at this meeting?
18 A. I was there because I was also a reserve officer, but I belonged
19 to the so-called JNA reserve, whereas most of the others belonged to --
20 were the reserve officers of the former TO.
21 Q. Now, do you recall what the captain, Milos Bogdanovic, said at
22 this meeting?
23 A. I didn't say that Milos Bogdanovic was a captain. At that time he
24 was the secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence.
25 Q. No. I meant what either Milos Bogdanovic or what the captain said
1 that you thought had the name of Petrovic. Do you recall what they said
2 to the reserve officers who were in attendance?
3 A. They spoke about the necessity to involve the officers in the 17th
4 Tactical Group.
5 Q. Finally, do you recall what the defendant Simo Zaric said at that
7 A. When Simo Zaric took the floor, he said that it was a multi-ethnic
8 unit, a unit that would defend Bosanski Samac against any attempts to
9 occupy it, particularly by the Zengas from Croatia.
10 Q. Did he refer to any other groups?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did he refer to the unit that he was talking about that was
13 supposed to be this multi-ethnic army to protect Bosanski Samac?
14 A. Yes. That was the first time that I heard the official title "the
15 4th Detachment," and Zaric said that the 4th Detachment was also a
16 multi-ethnic unit and that its goal is to protect Bosanski Samac against
17 any kind of occupation or attack.
18 Q. Now, as you've testified, the 4th Detachment was in fact
19 established. Did the 4th Detachment ever protect the town of Bosanski
20 Samac against outside forces?
21 A. Up until that time that we're talking about, that's December, the
22 4th Detachment didn't have to defend Bosanski Samac against anyone,
23 because Bosanski Samac did not come under an attack until the 7th of
25 Q. Do you mean --
1 A. 17th of April.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's mistake.
3 MR. WEINER:
4 Q. On the 17th of April, did the 4th Detachment protect the town of
5 Bosanski Samac against outside forces?
6 A. No. The 4th Detachment did not defend Bosanski Samac against
7 outside forces.
8 Q. Did the 4th Detachment, in April, defend and protect all of the
9 inhabitants of Bosanski Samac, as Simo Zaric said it would?
10 A. No. The 4th Detachment did not defend all the inhabitants of
11 Bosanski Samac.
12 Q. Did the 4th Detachment defend Bosanski Samac against -- or the
13 citizens of Bosanski Samac against the Serb paramilitaries, just like Simo
14 Zaric said it would?
15 A. No. The 4th Detachment did not defend Bosanski Samac against the
16 units that attacked Samac.
17 Q. Did it defend the town of Bosanski Samac against looting of
19 A. No, it did not defend the town.
20 Q. Did the 4th Detachment participate with the paramilitaries and the
21 JNA in the takeover of Bosanski Samac?
22 A. Yes, it did participate in the occupation of Bosanski Samac.
23 Q. With the paramilitaries and the JNA?
24 A. Yes, with the paramilitaries and the JNA.
25 Q. On that evening, did you enlist or re-enlist, as invited by
1 Colonel Nikolic?
2 A. No, I was not called.
3 Q. I realise you were not called, but did you enlist yourself in
4 response to that invitation, to be a full-time active officer?
5 A. At that meeting in December, I did not want to join the units that
6 were subordinate to the 17th Tactical Group.
7 Q. Why is that?
8 A. Because it was clear. The army was Serbian. They were armed.
9 The officers were all Serbs. There were just a few of us Muslims and
10 Croats there at the meeting, because it wasn't possible for more of them
11 to be present there.
12 Q. All right. Now, you said -- I just want to ask you one question
13 based on your answer. You said it wasn't possible for more of them to be
14 present there. Why was it impossible for more Muslims and Croats to be at
15 that meeting?
16 A. It wasn't possible because in fact there weren't more of them,
17 because there weren't enough Muslims and Croats that had undergone
18 requisite training in the reserve force. So the officers from these two
19 ethnic groups simply did not exist.
20 Q. Why weren't Muslims and Croats being given the requisite training
21 at that time?
22 A. The training took many years. I guess that at the time, in the
23 Communist system, this was what was required. On the other hand, perhaps
24 Croats and Muslims were not interested to pursue it. But the most
25 important thing is that over a very long period of time, many years,
1 nobody sent them to receive such training.
2 Q. And that's my question: Why weren't these people sent? Were they
3 not sent because they were Croat and Muslim or were they not sent for some
4 other reason?
5 A. Perhaps -- or probably because they were Muslims and Croats. It
6 was a policy that was not in existence for a long time, but it is
7 impossible to become a reserve officer in a month or two, or a year. The
8 reserve officers are created over a long period of years. For instance,
9 from being a private to the rank of captain, it took me seven years.
10 Perhaps in the seven years no other Muslim had served in that type of unit
11 in the former JNA. They simply did not receive the training for that.
12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Mr. Fitozovic, I wonder whether you
13 could tell us who was doing the sending of these people in terms of
14 reserve training. When I say "who," I don't necessarily mean an exact
15 person, but who was in charge? What category of person was in charge of
16 picking out who should be sent to do the reserve training? This is all
17 concerned with Mr. Weiner's question at page 76, line 22, concerning why
18 these people weren't sent for training. So if we could have some
19 clarification who was making those decisions, what category of person.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. In addition -- before you answer that
21 question, in addition, if you can also cover the period concerning this
22 aspect of your evidence. During which period are we discussing this
23 training or lack of training for certain types of people?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I have to say how is
25 it that one becomes a reserve officer. One becomes a reserve officer by
1 first of all doing the regular national service over many years. In order
2 to become a reserve officer in the course of one's regular national
3 service, one has to attend a special school, which was called the reserve
4 officers' school, and there were various schools for various arms:
5 Artillery, infantry, engineer corps, and so on. So you undergo this
6 training in the course of your regular national service. After the
7 completion of the national service, the person that graduated from the
8 reserve officers' school is awarded a certain rank once he leaves the
9 military. As a rule, the rank is that of a second lieutenant. Then that
10 person receives his or her assignment from the Secretariat for National
11 Defence, either in the regular troops of the JNA or in the regular forces
12 of the Territorial Defence. In a period of, let's say, two or three
13 years, if there is any -- if that person undergoes any training, he or she
14 receives a higher rank, which in the JNA was that of a lieutenant. After
15 a certain period of time holding that rank, and after some additional
16 training and, let's say, attendance at exercises, the person receives the
17 rank of a captain.
18 So it takes a long time for a person to become a reserve officer.
19 It is impossible for somebody who did not attend the reserve officers'
20 school to become a reserve officer, and there is no course -- for
21 instance, somebody would say, "Okay. You take this course and then you
22 will become a captain." That was not the system.
23 As for the other question regarding the time period required for a
24 person to become the reserve officer - I'm referring to the time period
25 beginning with the end of the Second World War, when people started doing
1 their national service, some people attended the reserve officers' school,
2 and so a new contingent would attend the school every year, from entire
3 Yugoslavia, and that process was going on until 1991. So that would be my
4 response to your question.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
6 MR. WEINER:
7 Q. Just to follow that up: Who made the decision as to whether or
8 not a person would be sent to reserve officer school?
9 A. This was decided in the Secretariat for National Defence, in the
10 municipalities, regions, republics, and also at the level of the former
11 Yugoslav state.
12 Q. And why at this level were Muslims and Croats not being sent by
13 the Secretariat of National Defence? Why weren't they sending Croats to
14 reserve officer school?
15 A. Well, I can't really answer your question. It may have been the
16 policy in the League of Communists, but I really don't know. I don't
17 know. I had the opportunity to be selected, and I did attend the reserve
18 officers' school.
19 MR. WEINER: Your Honours, there's only about two minutes to go.
20 Could we break here before we start in 1992 as we move on with his
21 testimony? I think it's --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
23 MR. WEINER: -- a decent place to break.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall adjourn now and continue our proceedings
25 tomorrow at 1415 hours.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of May
3 2002, at 2.15 p.m.