Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8578

1 Thursday, 30 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo

9 Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination continues with

11 Mr. Pisarevic.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

13 WITNESS: ALIJA FITOZOVIC [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic: [Continued]

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would particularly like to greet

17 His Honour Judge Lindholm, who is back with us, and I would indeed like us

18 to continue in this way and for him to be present during our proceedings.

19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Fitozovic.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. Yesterday we discussed the financing in the SDA. However, after

22 going through what we have been talking about yesterday, one question

23 remained unanswered, and I would like to ask this question now in order to

24 get your response. Yesterday you said that the list of the citizens who

25 had organised themselves was made by you in late September, October, or

Page 8579

1 perhaps even early November, and when I -- I mean 1991- and when I asked

2 you about the absence of Serbs, you said that there were no Serbs there

3 but that there were Serbs on later lists.

4 Can you please tell me now: What was this list that was made

5 later which contained members of the Serb ethnicity?

6 A. Of course, there were other lists that were made in the period

7 when the Territorial Defence of Bosanski Samac was set up. Of course,

8 these lists were not found in my briefcase, which was found when my

9 apartment was looted.

10 Q. Could you please remember and tell me some of the names of the

11 ethnic Serbs that were on the list as of the 14th or 15th of April, 1992.

12 A. I've already told you that the list was compiled in the period

13 between the 10th of April and the 16th of April, 1992. I did not have the

14 lists with me. The lists were in the possession of another person.

15 Q. All right. I understand. But if you had seen the list and if you

16 claim that there were such persons there, could you please enumerate some

17 of the ethnic Serbs that were on the list.

18 A. On the 13th or the 14th of April, 1992, when the Territorial

19 Defence of the Bosanski Samac municipality was set up, I convened a

20 meeting of the preliminary war staff of the Bosanski Samac municipality.

21 In this pre-war staff of the Bosanski Samac Territorial Defence, there

22 were 16 or 17 reserve officers who were ethnic Serbs, 2 or 3 Muslims, and

23 2 or 3 Croats. At that meeting, the new leadership of the Territorial

24 Defence, Mr. Marko Bozanovic and myself, talked to the then members of the

25 war staff of the Territorial Defence, which was not functioning. Among

Page 8580

1 those people, some officers who were ethnic Serbs, who were on the war

2 staff, also attended the meeting. Please allow me. My next sentence will

3 contain the name that you want.

4 The loyalty, if I may call it that, to the new Territorial

5 Defence, was pledged by Captain Savic. He had a construction degree --

6 civil engineering degree. His sister was a doctor. I can't recall his

7 name now. Could you please assist me?

8 Q. Do you mean Cvijetin Savic?

9 A. Yes, Cvijetin Savic. So he agreed to work in the staff of the

10 newly formed Territorial Defence. Vidak Prusina also signed. I have to

11 say I don't know what ethnic group he belongs to. I'm now talking about

12 the officers. On the 13th, 14th, 15th, and 16th, in Room 1, a person was

13 charged by the newly formed Territorial Defence, a person of Serb

14 ethnicity, who registered new members of the Territorial Defence. So it

15 was that person's task. Among them was a large number of members of the

16 new Territorial Defence who were of Serb ethnicity.

17 Q. Thank you. However, my question was the following: On some lists

18 of the citizens who organised themselves, there were some Serbs. That's

19 what you said. Now we're talking about the establishment of the

20 Territorial Defence. Can you remember which ethnic Serbs did, on the

21 13th, 14th, 15th, and 16th, volunteer to report to the Territorial Defence

22 staff and was entered on the list?

23 A. Mr. Pisarevic, on the 13th, 14th, 15th, and 16th, I was not

24 interested in the ethnic background of the newly registered members of the

25 Territorial Defence. What I was interested in was their number, not their

Page 8581

1 ethnic background.

2 Q. Sir, you said that there were Serbs among them. That's why I'm

3 asking you this question.

4 A. Yes. That is the information that I received from the employee or

5 clerk who registered the people who reported to join the Territorial

6 Defence, and that employee was of Serb ethnicity.

7 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us the name of that employee, if

8 you remember?

9 A. I do remember. He was the member of the old Territorial Defence,

10 and he also agreed to join the newly formed Territorial Defence. His last

11 name is Dujmusic, his father's name is Janko, and now I'd like you to

12 remind me of his first name.

13 Q. Can we agree that it was Darko Dujmusic?

14 A. Yes, that's correct. Thank you very much.

15 Q. Do you know that Darko Dujmusic is the child of a mixed marriage?

16 His father is a Croat.

17 A. No, I didn't know that.

18 Q. All right. Thank you. But can we agree that Mr. Vidak Prusina is

19 a Croat, an ethnic Croat who had come to Samac from Slavonski Brod?

20 A. Mr. Pisarevic, I never cared for one's ethnic background.

21 Q. Yet you do know?

22 A. Well, I don't really.

23 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, I've already told you: If you don't know

24 something, you just say "I don't know. I don't remember."

25 A. Yes, but you told me to answer you with yes or no, and now you got

Page 8582

1 me to tell you stories.

2 Q. So this information that a certain number of Serbs volunteered to

3 join the new Territorial Defence, you got that information from Darko

4 Dujmusic?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber if the weapons for the arming of

7 your unit was procured from the Republic of Croatia, from the Croatian

8 army?

9 A. No, it was not procured by the Croatian army.

10 Q. If my information is correct, Mr. Atic Ratif was a member of your

11 unit; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, he was a member.

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the witness to be

14 shown Exhibit D6/4 and D6/4 ter.

15 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, I would like to ask you to put this document on the

16 ELMO. You have already seen this document; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You confirm that this is the certificate of issuance number 1342,

19 from the 2nd of March, 1992, that the name here is Ratif Atic, that it was

20 issued in warehouse 1, and that the items listed here -- now I would like

21 to ask you one thing: Do you see a stamp on this certificate?

22 A. Yes, I do, but it is not really very legible. I don't see the

23 number that you referred to, number 1.

24 Q. It's in the upper left-hand corner.

25 A. Oh, yes. Now I see it. I'm sorry.

Page 8583

1 Q. This stamp here at the bottom of the document, could you please

2 read what is written on the stamp.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness have a closer look?

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. If you want you can take it in your hand and take a closer look?

6 A. It says military post code Slovanski Brod.

7 Q. The number is also listed here, the number of the military post

8 code?

9 A. I couldn't really see it. I can't read it.

10 Q. Military post code Slavonski Brod?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Is this a stamp that was used in the military?

13 A. Let's suppose that it was. I'm not sure, but it does say here

14 "military post code." It was used in the military.

15 Q. You do agree with me that Slavonski Brod is a town in the Republic

16 of Croatia?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Could you please read here what it says under the name "warehouse

19 operator." Can you please read the name of that person?

20 A. Vrljic.

21 Q. Do you know that person whose last name is Vrljic?

22 A. Yes. It is a friend of mine.

23 Q. If he is your friend, can you please tell us what is his first

24 name?

25 A. Ivo Vrljic.

Page 8584

1 Q. Can you please tell us: Where does he come from?

2 A. From Slavonski Brod.

3 Q. So this document was issued by Mr. Vrljic in the warehouse in

4 Slavonski Brod; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, and he issued it to Ratif Atic.

6 Q. Thank you. Did Atic -- Ratif Atic bring the ammunition that he

7 took over to your unit?

8 A. Yes, he did, Mr. Pisarevic.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] You can take the document away.

10 We won't be needing it any more.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

12 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I just want to mention one thing for the

13 record. At page 5, line 7, the question was if any weapons for the arming

14 of your unit were provided from the Republic of Croatia. Then counsel got

15 into this. This concerns bullets. I just want to make sure that this is

16 not being used as a prior inconsistent statement, this document,

17 because --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see what you mean.

19 MR. WEINER: It's two different things. These are concerning

20 bullets. That's the only thing.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you for clarifying that.

22 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, are hand grenades weapons or ammunition?

25 A. You can use it as ammunition.

Page 8585

1 Q. But they are grenades. Are grenades weapons, as a rule?

2 A. These are defensive grenades.

3 Q. Defensive hand grenades, Mr. Fitozovic, according to your

4 knowledge, are they weapons?

5 A. Defensive hand grenades are ammunition, as far as I know.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. One moment.

7 Mr. Fitozovic, if you're able to answer this, I would appreciate

8 it. What is the difference between a defensive hand grenade and an

9 offensive hand grenade? If you can help, please; if you can't, no matter.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Offensive hand grenades are used for

11 attack operations, offensive operations, and defensive hand grenades are

12 used for defence operations. But as I have already said, hand grenades

13 can be used as ammunition. I'm quite familiar with that. It can be used

14 as explosive.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So if I understand you correctly, it can be used

16 either way. So is it true, therefore, that the grenade is the same item?

17 If you look at it, you take the pin out, what have you, it's the same

18 item, but it can be used to defend or to offend. But are we talking about

19 the same item in one's hand, if it's a hand grenade? I'm uncertain. But

20 is it the same piece of equipment?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we are talking about the same

22 thing, same item. But this one and the same item, if you modify it, or if

23 certain parts are missing in it, it can be used as ammunition. It can be

24 used as a booby trap.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

Page 8586

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Is both the -- does both the offensive and defensive hand grenade

3 used to kill people?

4 A. Unfortunately, that's what it's used for, and that's why it's

5 being made.

6 Q. Just one more thing: What weapon is loaded with these grenades?

7 Are there weapons that are used -- where these hand grenades are being

8 used as loading material?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Which ones?

11 A. Well, it can be an M-48, a Kalashnikov, or a semi-automatic rifle.

12 Q. Do you know a person called Franjo Piplovic from Slavonski Brod?

13 A. Yes, I've heard of him.

14 Q. Do you know him personally?

15 A. Yes, I know this gentleman.

16 Q. What was this gentleman's occupation? What kinds of work did he

17 do in 1991 and 1992?

18 A. I know he worked in Slavonski Brod, in the municipality, but I

19 don't know what kind of a post he held there, whether he had something to

20 do with general administrative work, defence. But I do know that he

21 worked in the municipality in Slavonski Brod.

22 Q. Sir, I have information about the following: That Mr. Piplovic

23 worked on defence matters. Can you confirm this?

24 A. When you ask me about Mr. Piplovic, I said that he worked for the

25 municipality. Whether it was administration or defence, I really can't

Page 8587

1 tell you this with certainty.

2 Q. All right. Thank you very much.

3 A. You're welcome.

4 Q. Are you familiar with the name, or do you know a person with the

5 last name Meter from Slavonski Brod?

6 A. Yes, this name is familiar to me.

7 Q. Do you know this gentleman personally?

8 A. Yes, I do know him personally.

9 Q. What did this person do, Mr. Meter, in 1992?

10 A. I know that he worked in the municipality. After that he was, I

11 think, the ambassador to Australia.

12 Q. Do you know Mr. Slavko Bilandzic from Slavonski Brod?

13 A. I do not know Slavko Bilandzic.

14 Q. Did Mr. Piplovic and Meter help you with arming the unit in

15 Bosanski Samac?

16 A. No, they did not help us.

17 Q. Could you confirm the fact that on the 19th of March, 1992, you

18 received from the HVO unit in Prud a couple of bombs, one semi-automatic

19 rifle, and a couple of grenades?

20 A. I can't tell you this with any certainty. Maybe some of my men

21 received these items, but I am not familiar with this fact. Actually, I'm

22 not sure. I just don't know.

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pisarevic, I wonder whether you could clarify

24 for me how a grenade can be loaded into a Kalashnikov or a semi-automatic

25 rifle. At the moment maybe just this is my perception of weapons, but to

Page 8588

1 me, a grenade is about this size and it has a pin and people throw it or

2 they do whatever. And I just have a bit of a confusion here how a

3 grenade, whether offensive or defensive, can be loaded into a Kalashnikov

4 or a semi-automatic rifle. So if you could just clear that up, I would

5 appreciate it, please.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] All right, Your Honour. I'm not

7 certain myself, but Mr. Fitozovic can hopefully explain this.

8 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, I think you understood what the Honourable Judge

9 was asking. So could you please explain how a hand grenade can be used as

10 ammunition for an automatic rifle or a Kalashnikov?

11 A. I will certainly explain this. In order for a defensive hand

12 grenade to be used as ammunition, on the barrel on a semi-automatic rifle

13 or a Kalashnikov or some other long barrel, you can put a certain object

14 that on the back has an opening, and the size of that opening is the size

15 of the barrel, of the end of the barrel of the weapon. And then the hand

16 grenade is put into that object, into that mounting, and then it is -- a

17 bullet is shot, which throws this hand grenade a certain distance, and

18 then this hand grenade explodes. That is the simplest explanation that I

19 can give you.

20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: I just wanted to complement that, because in another

22 case where this was being explained, it was explained that it was a hand

23 grenade launcher. I wonder whether that's the same thing like the one

24 you've explained.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8589

1 Q. Could you please explain.

2 A. That could not be compared to a launcher. This was an improvised

3 weapon, this weapon that I was talking about, a makeshift item.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, while you testified here, you said that on the 10th

7 of January, 1992, you procured a hundred kilos of explosive called Vitezit

8 20; is that correct?

9 A. The date might be wrong. Could you please check the date?

10 Q. Well, okay, then. Sometime in January.

11 A. No, this did not happen in 1992.

12 Q. Well, when was it, then?

13 A. I think I said in mid-October. You can help me here, because in

14 October there is a fair in Samac.

15 Q. So in October. What year?

16 A. 1991.

17 Q. Could you please tell me the following: Where did you get this

18 explosive from?

19 A. I got it through private channels. That is what I said earlier.

20 I got it privately.

21 Q. Who was with you when you procured this explosive?

22 A. It is possible that Osman Mesic was with me when I received this

23 explosive.

24 Q. This is Osman Mesic, nicknamed Semso; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8590

1 Q. From Bosanski Samac?

2 A. Yes, from Bosanski Samac.

3 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that Ratif Atic was also with

4 you?

5 A. I'm not sure that he was with me.

6 Q. Did you get this explosive through private channels in Slavonski

7 Brod?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you inform anybody else about the procurement of this

10 explosive? Did you say this to anybody else in Bosanski Samac?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So it is your claim that you did not inform Mr. Sulejman Tihic

13 about the procurement of this explosive?

14 A. Mr. Pisarevic, I said in the testimony earlier and during the

15 cross-examination yesterday that I did not inform Sulejman Tihic about my

16 activities, about what I was doing, how I was doing it, and why I was

17 doing it. Well, he knew why I was doing it, though. But I did not tell

18 him anything about how I was doing things and what I was doing.

19 Q. All right. Mr. Fitozovic, when I ask you the question, you can

20 just say that you did not inform him, and that is all right; that is not a

21 problem.

22 The last -- actually, no. I have another question here. You said

23 in your statement that 25 kilos of explosive was found in your apartment,

24 in the bed; is that correct?

25 A. Yes. This is in my 1995 statement.

Page 8591

1 Q. On the 13th, 14th, 15th of February?

2 A. Yes, but I did not see this statement of mine until I arrived here

3 in The Hague. When I arrived, I called up Sarajevo. I called my wife and

4 asked her if the explosive was there. True, the explosive used to be in

5 my house, but at that time it was not there. When I say "at that time," I

6 meanwhile my apartment was looted. It was not in my bedroom at that time,

7 because it was moved the same moment when, in the close proximity of my

8 bedroom, Grga Zubak's house was blown up.

9 Q. Did you place this explosive in the emptied and dried septic tank

10 of Tihic Pasaga from Bosanski Samac?

11 A. No, Mr. Pisarevic. The 20 kilos I gave to Odzak, and I put 80

12 kilos into the emptied-out and dried septic tank that belonged to another

13 man.

14 Q. The last question that has to do with the weapons: On the 14th

15 [As interpreted] of April, 1992, weapons also arrived into the TO staff;

16 is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Those were 50 Kalashnikovs; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, just one correction to the

21 transcript.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Microphone not activated] Mr. Pisarevic said 15th

24 of April, and here it says "14th of April." So just to make sure.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, the question -- the date was 15th April, not

Page 8592

1 14th April.

2 MR. WEINER: That's consistent, Your Honour, with the testimony

3 that came out yesterday, the 15th of April.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: 15th of April. That's the correct date. All right.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You said yesterday that Sabanovic Fadil participated in the

7 bringing of these weapons, together with Salkic Ibrahim, called Ibela; is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. We have information that along with Salkic Ibrahim, also Jasenica

11 Fuad participated in the bringing of these weapons.

12 A. No.

13 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Mr. Tihic issued a receipt of SDA

14 to Mr. Salkic Ibrahim and Jasenica Fuad?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: If I recall Mr. Tihic's testimony, I believe he

17 claimed that was a forged document, number one; and number two, what he is

18 trying to do is somehow impeach this witness through a prior statement of

19 Mr. Tihic. And number one, a statement that Tihic -- a document that

20 Tihic claims is a forgery. If that's -- there was the Bicic document that

21 Tihic claimed was a forgery, but Tihic claimed this didn't happen, if I'm

22 -- maybe I'm wrong, but I think he's trying to question this document --

23 question this witness about a statement that Tihic made, he can't do it in

24 this manner. Basically he's trying to have two witnesses discuss --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: This is slightly different, Mr. Weiner, because the

Page 8593

1 way the question has been framed is: "Are you aware of the fact that Mr.

2 Tihic..." It's being put to him as a fact by the Defence, so it's

3 slightly different. The way it's phrased is all right. The witness

4 should be able to answer.

5 MR. WEINER: Okay. No problem.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: So you can repeat your question. Then the witness

7 can answer.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, are you familiar with the fact that Mr. Tihic

10 issued a receipt --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. That's different. Don't put in the

12 word "familiar." Just ask him the way you did: Are you aware. Because

13 that's how your question came out. Your question was: "Are you aware of

14 the fact that Mr. Tihic issued a receipt of SDA to Mr. Salkic Ibrahim and

15 Jasenica Fuad?"

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. -- for the procurement of weapons in Slavonski Brod?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 A. No.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. In your statement you said that you had your patrols -- did your

22 patrols receive any remuneration for their work?

23 A. Yes. They began receiving remuneration in March 1992.

24 Q. Did you, Mr. Fitozovic, receive any remuneration for your work?

25 A. Mr. Pisarevic, on the 25th of December, 1991, I lost my job. So

Page 8594

1 in 1992, on two or three occasions, I received payments, salary, from the

2 Party of Democratic Action.

3 Q. Can you please explain to me this salary? Who determined your

4 salary, the amount that you would receive?

5 A. The amount of my salary was dictated by the amount that was

6 available to be dispensed at that time. It was not a significant amount.

7 Q. So the funds were paid to you from the account and from the funds

8 of the town board of the SDA in Bosanski Samac?

9 A. It was paid at the cash desk of the SDA. So it was paid from the

10 petty cash, by the cashier.

11 Q. Is the name of the cashier Hata Barjaktarevic?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. She was the secretary and the treasurer who was employed full time

14 as a professional in the town board of the SDA in Bosanski Samac?

15 A. I have to correct you. She was a technical secretary.

16 Q. Yes. My mistake. She was a technical secretary.

17 Do you know whether anybody else from the members of the SDA,

18 apart from the patrol members and yourself, received any remuneration for

19 their work?

20 A. Mr. Pisarevic, I would really like to answer your question. So I

21 received the salary in March; the patrols received some certain amounts.

22 I don't know if you are leading to anyone.

23 Q. No, I'm not. So you don't know?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now we will go on to an event that happened in December 1991, in

Page 8595

1 Mitra Trifunovic Uco memorial home. It is the meeting of the reserve

2 officers. You remember that you talked about it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. There were two meetings. We talked about one meeting and we

5 didn't discuss the second one.

6 Q. Let's take it slowly, Mr. Fitozovic. We will get to that other

7 one too.

8 A. All right.

9 Q. With all the other reserve officers, you duly received the

10 invitation to attend this meeting?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you go to this meeting?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The meeting was convened and organised by the secretariat for the

15 National Defence and the command, or rather, the commander of the 17th

16 Tactical Group of the Yugoslav People's Army, Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic;

17 is that correct?

18 A. I'm not sure, but probably they did.

19 Q. You will agree with me that the reserve officers in fact include

20 both non-commissioned and commissioned officers and those with the ranks

21 of high officers, senior officers?

22 A. Well, I don't know. What is your question?

23 Q. Well, the term "reserve military officer" includes

24 non-commissioned officers, officers?

25 A. Yes, yes, yes. Now I understand. You are correct.

Page 8596

1 Q. Since you talked about the participation of members of various

2 ethnic groups among the attendees of the reserve officers' school, I will

3 ask you if you're familiar with the fact that between 1980 and 1990, that

4 33 Croats, 7 Muslims, and 27 Serbs graduated from the reserve officers'

5 school.

6 A. I'm not aware of this fact, but I do know that in the engineer

7 section of the reserve officers' school, that Suljo Zurapovic graduated

8 from the school in 1955 and that I was the first person from Bosanski

9 Samac to graduate from that school in 1979. So almost 24 years passed, if

10 my calculation is correct.

11 Q. Well, I don't know about that, but Suljo Zurapovic is a Muslim?

12 A. Yes. So it took 25 years between the two persons.

13 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, I did not ask you about the sections for each arm

14 of the armed service. I asked you for the whole school.

15 A. Well, the same thing went for all the other arms of the armed

16 service.

17 Q. But would this ratio correspond to the ethnic composition of

18 Bosanski Samac?

19 A. No, this ratio does not correspond to the ethnic composition in

20 Bosanski Samac.

21 Q. If I read this information correctly, the largest number --

22 A. I'm really sorry. You see this information? I don't.

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pisarevic, I'm just wondering: These

24 statistics of graduation from the officers' -- the reserve officers'

25 school, I think the witness has just correctly said you have the figures,

Page 8597

1 he doesn't. Are you asking him to speculate? I'm not sort of entirely

2 happy with the figures, because how does he know how many people graduated

3 in any given year unless somehow he's privy to that information? So maybe

4 you can explain. Maybe I'm missing something. But maybe you can explain

5 why this line of questioning is appropriate.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Your Honour. I

7 asked the witness whether he is aware of the fact --

8 Q. If you are not aware of the fact, please say so. You said that in

9 the former Yugoslavia there was some kind of discrimination based on the

10 ethnicity when it came to sending people to attend the reserve officer's

11 school, and that's why I asked you if you are aware of the fact. And if

12 I'm not mistaken, you graduated from the reserve officers' school in that

13 period. You were active in the association of reserve officers, you were

14 a member of that association. But just say. If you don't know, say you

15 don't know.

16 A. Mr. Pisarevic, my suggestion is that you leave this topic aside,

17 because I graduated from the reserve officers' school in 1979, and I told

18 you that before that time, no Muslim had graduated from that school. The

19 last Muslim to graduate was in 1955. So what was the structure like, the

20 ethnic structure, in the period between 1980 and 1990, I don't know, and I

21 cannot trust this information that you provided to me. Because I also

22 have access to some databases, and perhaps then we can compare our data.

23 Q. You said that you don't know, and the moment you say you don't

24 know, we'll leave the topic aside.

25 A. Yes, but now you're quoting data that nobody apart from you

Page 8598

1 knows. 33 per cent, I don't know.

2 Q. No. You perhaps didn't understand me correctly. I said that 33

3 Croats, 7 Muslims, 27 Serbs, graduated from the reserve officer's school?

4 MR. WEINER: I object, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we're on page 21 at page 19, line 11.

7 The witness indicated he didn't know and we're still going back and forth

8 into now just an argument over whether --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Counsel, can we move on.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have moved on. I

11 will no longer discuss this topic.

12 Q. Can we agree that when people were summoned to attend this meeting

13 in October - I'm sorry - in December, no discrimination was made on the

14 basis of ethnic background when it came to summoning reserve officers?

15 A. Yes. All of them were summoned, and I know the reason why

16 everybody was summoned.

17 Q. Did all the officers and non-commissioned officers who were

18 present there, were they invited to join the JNA?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Was it said at the meeting that military officers were

21 needed because a detachment of the JNA would be established for Bosanski

22 Samac? Yes or no.

23 A. It was already established, and it was an attempt to legalise it

24 at that meeting.

25 Q. How do you explain that term, to "legalise"? What is illegal and

Page 8599

1 what is illegal here?

2 A. Well, until that time the 4th Detachment already existed.

3 Q. Well, you say that. I simply asked you whether it was said at

4 that meeting such-and-such a thing was said. If you remember, say "yes";

5 if you don't remember, say "I don't remember" or say you don't know.

6 Whether it was said that military officers would be needed because a

7 detachment of the JNA would be established for the town of Bosanski Samac,

8 which would be part of the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA.

9 A. To continue with my answer, that there were enough people, there

10 were enough weapons, and that if this thing doesn't go that way, then

11 there would be blood up to our knees. That's what Lieutenant Colonel

12 Nikolic said at that time. He said we would be in blood up to our knees,

13 and he used the Ekavian dialect.

14 Q. Did he say at that time, when he invited you to join the Yugoslav

15 People's Army?

16 A. Yes. He said that those who refused to accept the invitation, he

17 saw what was going on. He said there would be blood up to your knees

18 here. I know who ended up in blood and who didn't.

19 Q. When did the commander, Lieutenant Nikolic, say that? In fact,

20 when he said that, he said that in order to have you, the reserve

21 officers, join the JNA and to avoid having blood up to your knees.

22 A. He said that in order to intimidate us, to frighten us with a show

23 force, but he failed to intimidate me.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

25 MR. WEINER: I don't think this witness can really answer what the

Page 8600

1 intentions were of Colonel Nikolic. I think if Defence wants to call him

2 as a witness and have him explain what he meant when he warned these

3 people that there would be blood up to their knees, that's their option,

4 but it's not a valid question for this witness.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, are you aware of the fact that the 4th Detachment

8 of the Yugoslav People's Army, belonging to the 17th Tactical Group, was

9 established pursuant to an order of the 17th Tactical Group dated 5th of

10 January, 1992?

11 A. That is not true.

12 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the municipality of Bosanski Samac,

13 in 1991 and 1992, was in the area of responsibility of the 17th Tactical

14 Group of the Yugoslav People's Army? Do you know or is it that you don't

15 know?

16 A. Could you please repeat your question, because I wasn't

17 concentrating.

18 Q. All right. We'll take it slowly. Are you aware of the fact that

19 the municipality or the territory of the municipality of Bosanski Samac

20 was in the area of responsibility of the 17th Tactical Group of the

21 Yugoslav People's Army?

22 A. Yes, I am aware of the fact.

23 Q. Thank you. And are you aware of the fact that the order issued by

24 the commander of the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA about the formation of

25 the 4th Detachment was publicly broadcast in the media?

Page 8601

1 A. No, I wasn't aware of the fact.

2 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that the secretariat of the

3 National Defence ordered a mobilisation of all the conscripts and carried

4 out the mobilisation of all the conscripts from the municipality or from

5 the town of Bosanski Samac to fill in the ranks of the 4th Detachment of

6 the JNA?

7 A. On what date was it?

8 Q. Well, after it was established. That would be in the period in

9 January 1992.

10 A. The 4th Detachment existed from 1991.

11 Q. Sir, please.

12 A. And now --

13 Q. My question was whether you are aware of the fact that in January

14 1992, mobilisation was carried out, where conscripts were mobilised into

15 the 4th Detachment of the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA. Are you aware

16 of the fact or not?

17 A. Yes, I am aware of the fact.

18 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that the area of

19 responsibility of the 4th Detachment of the 17th TG, Tactical Group, was

20 the town of Samac?

21 A. Bosanski Samac.

22 Q. Bosanski Samac.

23 A. Probably, yes.

24 Q. You're also probably aware of the fact that the secretary of the

25 secretariat of the municipal for National Defence, in 1991 and

Page 8602

1 1992, was Mr. Milos Bogdanovic.

2 A. Yes, I am aware of that fact.

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. I wonder whether you

4 could clarify with the witness his answer, page 24, line 22. His answer

5 is: "Probably, yes." "Probably" raises an element of doubt. Is it, to

6 use your phrase, "yes," "no," or "I don't know." "Probably, yes" is a

7 little bit vague, I think.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to clarify this matter

9 immediately.

10 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, did the area of responsibility of the 4th

11 Detachment of the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA include the town of

12 Bosanski Samac?

13 A. I did not have access to the document of the 17th Tactical Group,

14 so I do not know whether Bosanski Samac was part of the area of

15 responsibility of the 17th Tactical Group. But let me explain something

16 else. I'm not clear about this question that you asked me about the

17 mobilisation that was done by the secretariat for National Defence. Who

18 received the draft calls as part of this mobilisation?

19 Q. The conscripts.

20 A. My brother, my cousin, my closer relatives, nobody received any

21 draft calls. Could you please tell me who from my family received these

22 calls, who from my neighbours received them? If we're talking about

23 mobilisation, then everybody should be mobilised and not just certain

24 parts.

25 Q. Yes. You asked the right question. But you are also familiar

Page 8603

1 with the fact that Muslims and Croats did not respond, nor did they accept

2 these draft calls for the JNA; is that correct?

3 A. Mr. Pisarevic, how can they receive them when you're mentioning

4 December of 1991, when Mr. Radovan Karadzic was there? How can they

5 receive these calls, these draft calls?

6 Q. So they did not want to accept them?

7 A. Of course they did not.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Were you in a situation where you could hear

9 Mr. Zaric, Mr. Simo Zaric, to hear him over the media and on public

10 rallies explain the tasks of the 4th Detachment?

11 A. Yes, I had such an opportunity.

12 Q. Amongst the members of the 4th Detachment of the JNA there were

13 members of all ethnic groups: Serbs, Muslims, Croats, and others. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. I don't have that list with me, and I cannot answer this

16 question. So my answer would be no, because I don't know the

17 percentages. I agreed with you yesterday when you mentioned the 98

18 percentage point.

19 Q. Sir, I'm not interested in the percentages.

20 A. But you're the one that insisted on the percentages. You

21 mentioned the 98 per cent, and I checked that fact.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, don't argue with the witness. If he gives

23 you an answer you don't like, you don't argue with him. And please, do

24 remember to pause, otherwise the record won't make sense.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your admonition,

Page 8604

1 Your Honour. I will try to do my best.

2 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the fact that members of all

3 ethnic groups were part of the 4th Detachment: Serbs, Muslims, and Croats

4 alike?

5 A. Yes, I have knowledge about that.

6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Fitozovic, you have never seen a list of members

7 of the 4th Detachment; is that correct?

8 A. Not in any official way.

9 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, you also did not see a line-up of the entire 4th

10 Detachment; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct. I did not see the entire 4th Detachment

12 lined up.

13 Q. Mr. Fitozovic --

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Mr. Pisarevic, I wonder whether you

15 could ask the witness to elaborate on his answer to your question. Page

16 27, line 7, in response to you asking him whether he had seen lists of

17 members of the 4th Detachment, he said: "Not in an official way." Could

18 we have a little bit of elaboration on that point, do you think?

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, did you see a list of the members of the 4th

21 Detachment through some kind of an unofficial channel?

22 A. I saw it through an unofficial channel, but not the full list.

23 Q. So you did not see the whole list; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: A supplementary question: Mr. Fitozovic, how did

Page 8605

1 you know that you were not seeing the whole list?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew it because of the number of

3 the people that were on that list, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So this list that you saw, how many people were on it?

7 A. About 350.

8 Q. Could we agree, then, that the 4th Detachment had more than 350

9 members?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that members of the 4th

12 Detachment of the JNA wore JNA uniforms?

13 A. Yes, I'm aware of the fact that they wore camouflage uniforms of

14 the JNA, and members of other detachments of the JNA wore grey/green

15 uniforms.

16 Q. It is your claim, if I understood you correctly, that the members

17 of the 4th Detachment did not wear uniforms of the JNA that are called

18 SMB, or olive-drab uniforms.

19 A. Yes. When I saw them, they did not wear the SMB uniforms; they

20 wore camouflage uniforms, Mr. Pisarevic. I hope this is going to make it

21 easier for you to understand.

22 Q. When you see them, this was after the 17th, is that correct, the

23 17th of April?

24 A. The 17th of April and later. I saw it on Cviko Tesic, Fadil

25 Topcagic, and so on.

Page 8606

1 Q. So you saw only a few members of the 4th Detachment, in your

2 opinion?

3 A. What do you mean when you say "a few"? How many?

4 Q. Well, just the people that you listed.

5 A. Well, I didn't list all of them.

6 Q. Well, how many did you see?

7 A. In those eight days I saw about 220 maybe.

8 Q. It is your claim that you saw all of them, all the 220 members,

9 wearing camouflage uniforms?

10 A. Mr. Pisarevic, Murata Focakovic and Fadil Topcagic I saw on the

11 18th of April. They were mobilising Muharem, nicknamed Sovura. I can't

12 remember his last name. The man came out in a camouflage uniform and they

13 put a white armband on him. Murata and Fadil did that on the 18th of

14 April, and they came in a yellow Mercedes.

15 The same day, in the afternoon, on the other side of the yard,

16 Cviko Tesic, again wearing a camouflage uniform and a red beret, with

17 members of Arkan's units, or Grey Wolves, that had camouflage marks on

18 their faces, came from the courtyard of Vlado Vrdoljak, and they were

19 mobilising some people there. And at the same time, he said to Vlado,

20 "Please get that pistol." I saw this with my very own eyes, and there

21 are notes from the attic that I made. I am very sorry about this. I

22 don't have them here. But I wrote down every day what I saw and who I

23 saw, and I have these notes here [as interpreted], and you can -- but that

24 doesn't matter right now.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the Trial

Page 8607

1 Chamber to notify in the record that he showed that he saw Muharem

2 Kapetanovic, while he was being mobilised, in a uniform that was a

3 camouflage uniform.

4 Q. Am I saying this correctly? And that a white armband was being

5 put on his left arm, above the elbow.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Is that correct, Mr. Fitozovic?

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Did I say this right?

9 A. Correction. Muharem Sovura received a rifle, and he had the

10 armband, but he did not wear a camouflage uniform. I apologise to the

11 Chamber. But that happened just in one day, in one hour, actually.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the Chamber

13 that it be reflected that he pointed at the left arm, above the elbow.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: For the white armband?

15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. And this uniform and this cap that Cviko Tesic was wearing, who is

19 from Bosanski Samac, this is not a uniform of the regular JNA; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Not of the regular, but of the elite troops of the JNA. Not of

22 the regular troops of the JNA but of the elite troops of the JNA.

23 Q. So in your opinion, Cviko Tesic belonged to this elite unit?

24 A. I didn't say that he belonged to an elite unit. The 4th

25 Detachment. I would not consider it an elite unit. But he wore an elite

Page 8608

1 unit uniform, a uniform of an elite unit of the JNA.

2 Q. Could these uniforms be obtained somewhere?

3 A. They could be obtained in the warehouses of the JNA. You could

4 also get it in the 4th Detachment and in other detachments. It could also

5 be bought from Arkan's and Seselj's members, because everybody wanted to

6 be trendy; at least, they wanted their uniforms to be trendy in such a

7 small town.

8 Q. Sir, I only asked you about the regular troops, the regular JNA.

9 Did the other militaries in the former Yugoslavia have such colourful

10 uniforms?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now we're going to talk about some events in Samac in 1991 and

13 1992. You said that there had been some sabotages in various buildings,

14 both state-owned and private, in 1991; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. You said that your patrols were in the town 24 hours, 24/7, both

17 day and night, and at night the number of the patrols was increased; is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes. The number of the patrols increased just before the

20 aggression.

21 Q. Did your patrols cooperate with the police, with the police

22 station in Bosanski Samac?

23 A. Not any particular cooperation. It wasn't any official kind of

24 cooperation. Only if a person that was in the patrol and the reserve

25 officer knew each other, then they would sort of cooperate. That was the

Page 8609

1 only way there was any cooperation. But there was no official cooperation

2 that you could see in any kind of paperwork or documents.

3 Q. So your patrols didn't submit any kind of reports to the police

4 station in Bosanski Samac?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did these patrols report to anybody?

7 A. No.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction. The witness said "to

9 me."

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So these patrols were under your control?

12 A. Yes, they were under my control.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe that we again need a

14 clarification. What I heard as the answer of the witness on the question:

15 "Did these patrols report to anybody?" He said: "To me." That's what I

16 heard. And here it says: "No."

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The interpreters put in a correction that the

18 witness said: "To me." So the correct answer is on record.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether the police in Bosanski Samac

21 detected any perpetrator of any order of the sabotage acts that were

22 committed in the municipality of Bosanski Samac and in the town of

23 Bosanski Samac?

24 A. I don't have any knowledge of that.

25 Q. Could you agree with me that in 1991 and 1992, Mr. Miko Dragicevic

Page 8610

1 was the police chief and he was followed by Mr. Dragan Lukac?

2 A. You mention 1991 and 1992. Mr. Dragan Lukac --

3 Q. Well, it's not important how many days. The important thing is

4 that he was.

5 A. Yes. For the period of four or five days, in April. It is

6 important, I think.

7 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Mr. Dragan Lukac was the chief of

8 the secret service [As interpreted] in the police station in Bosanski

9 Samac?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Dragan Lukac and Mr. Niko Dragicevic, the police chief, were

12 ethnic Croats?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It is suggested here that there is a mistake in interpretation. I

15 didn't say "secret service," but criminal investigation section?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Which line?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Apologies from the interpreters. We didn't hear

18 the counsel because he was speaking quite fast.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Page 33, line 6. Here it said "secret service,"

20 and actually the correct translation would be "criminal investigations."

21 That's what Mr. Pisarevic asked.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So it should be -- yes. Maybe if the

23 question is asked -- let me see. Okay. The witness answered, because he

24 understood the language, like for us who understood the interpretation.

25 All right. It's been corrected. So it's the criminal investigations

Page 8611

1 instead of the secret service.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: Thank you very much.

3 Q. Are you aware of the fact that in 1992, police officers, both in

4 the regular police and in the reserve police, were mostly Muslims and

5 Croats? Is that correct?

6 A. No. There were also ethnic Serbs. But after the visit of Radovan

7 Karadzic to the memorial home, they separated, and they established a

8 separate Serb reserve police.

9 Q. So you want to say that from that moment on, the police in Samac

10 was composed mostly of Muslims and Croats?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now we will be discussing an event that took place on the 22nd of

13 March. It is an event involving roadblocks. We can agree that the

14 roadblocks were manned by members of your unit, members of the SDA party,

15 and some members of the reserve police of the Samac police station, all of

16 them ethnic Muslims.

17 A. Could you please repeat your question?

18 Q. Can we agree that the roadblocks set up at the entrances to the

19 Bosanski Samac town, erected between the 21st and the 22nd of March, 1992,

20 were manned by members of your unit, some SDA party members, members of

21 the reserve police from the Bosanski Samac police station, and that all of

22 them were ethnic Muslims?

23 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that question.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

25 MR. WEINER: He's asking several questions, number one; number

Page 8612

1 two, he's saying members of the SDA. Does he mean people who were there

2 as individuals or is he saying people who were there sent by the SDA?

3 That can have many different inferences based on a response to that

4 question.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel. I think it's better to split up your

6 questions so that the questions are clear as to what you are discussing

7 with the witness before he can answer.

8 Yes, Mr. Weiner.

9 MR. WEINER: Yes. Since it's time for the break anyways, I was

10 just going to -- excuse me. I figured since it was time for the break,

11 I've gone over every document supplied to me yesterday by Mr. Pantelic. I

12 have one more Pantelic document. I have two documents from Mr. Lukic, and

13 then he just gave another one today, so I would need ten minutes to talk

14 to the witness and show him the him the new document that was supplied

15 today to the Prosecution as well as the three other documents,

16 authorisation to meet with the witness again.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead and discuss those with the

18 witness.

19 We shall have our break and continue the proceedings at 1615

20 hours.

21 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. You can continue.

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, we started discussing the roadblocks. My next

Page 8613

1 question pertaining to this issue: Is it correct that the persons manning

2 the roadblocks were under the influence of alcoholic beverages?

3 A. No, they were not.

4 Q. Are you aware of the fact that at that time, Mr. Osman Mesic fired

5 shots from a Kalashnikov near the Muslim cemetery?

6 A. No, that is not true.

7 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Mr. Izet Izetbegovic, the

8 vice-president of the SDA party, went to the garrison in Brcko that

9 morning to seek -- to request that the army do not intervene to remove the

10 roadblocks?

11 A. No, I'm not aware of that fact.

12 Q. So you are not aware of the fact that Mr. Sulejman Tihic, the

13 president of the Samac SDA, sent Mr. Izetbegovic, the vice-president of

14 the Samac SDA, to the garrison of the SDA in Brcko?

15 A. No, I'm not aware of that fact.

16 Q. As far as we know, the roadblocks were removed on the orders of

17 Mr. Sulejman Tihic, the president of the SDA. Is that correct or not?

18 A. They were not removed on the orders of Sulejman Tihic.

19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me: Who ordered that the roadblocks be

20 removed?

21 A. I did. I ordered that the roadblocks be removed.

22 Q. Did Mr. Sulejman Tihic appear at the roadblocks at any time during

23 that day?

24 A. I don't know. He was -- as far as I know, he was in Pelagicevo

25 with Izetbegovic.

Page 8614

1 Q. So you don't know that on that day, the 22nd of March, Sulejman

2 Tihic was at the roadblocks in Bosanski Samac?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Is it correct that the paramilitary units that existed in the

5 Croat villages in the municipality of Bosanski Samac were mobilised to

6 provide support to your operation involving the setting up of the

7 roadblocks?

8 A. No, that is not correct.

9 Q. Is it true that you did not set up the roadblocks at the entrance

10 of Bosanski Samac from the direction of the village of Prud?

11 A. Yes, that is true.

12 Q. So you erected the roadblocks only on the access routes or

13 entrances to the town from which Serbs can enter into the town; is that

14 correct?

15 A. We set up the roadblocks at the entrances to the town, where

16 Croats, mostly Croats, and Serbs entered the town.

17 Q. You did not allow Serbs to enter the town at the roadblocks; is

18 that correct?

19 A. We did not allow anyone to enter the town, with the exception of

20 one case, when Mr. Marko Bozanovic was allowed to enter the town.

21 Q. Marko Bozanovic is a Croat; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. He was later to become the commander of the Territorial Defence

24 staff; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8615

1 Q. Did any organ of the town board of the SDA in Bosanski Samac

2 discuss or assess the effects achieved by the setting up of the roadblocks

3 at the entrances to the town of Bosanski Samac?

4 A. I don't know, because I did not attend those meetings.

5 Q. Did you, Mr. Fitozovic, make any kind of analysis of these events?

6 A. I personally did make an analysis.

7 Q. We will move on to another topic, and that is the cooperation

8 between the SDA and the HDZ. Are you aware of the fact that there were

9 frequent meetings held at the highest level between the representatives of

10 the Croatian Democratic Union and the Party of Democratic Action in

11 Bosanski Samac?

12 A. Yes, there were such meetings, one or two.

13 Q. You, Mr. Tihic, and Mr. Izetbegovic were in most cases members of

14 the negotiating team on the part of the SDA; is that correct?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Can you please tell me, then: Who was in the delegation that took

17 part in the negotiations that took place at the meetings held with the

18 HDZ?

19 A. In most cases, I was there.

20 Q. Was it because you were the commander of the armed unit and the

21 chairman of the safety and security commission?

22 A. Since Tihic was in charge of the political aspect of the work of

23 the SDA and I took care of other business unrelated to the SDA, Mr. Tihic

24 went to the political negotiations and talks. On one or two occasions I

25 was there together with him.

Page 8616

1 Q. So there were meetings where political issues were discussed. But

2 Mr. Fitozovic, which topics were discussed at those other meetings and in

3 other contacts that you had?

4 A. Well, the situation, the security situation in the municipality,

5 was discussed. That's what was discussed.

6 Q. Do you remember a meeting held on the 19th of March, 1992, in the

7 Croatian village of Prud, with the leadership of the municipal board of

8 the HDZ, where you were the first to arrive, and the vice-president of the

9 SDA, Mr. Izet Izetbegovic?

10 A. I do remember that meeting.

11 Q. Do you remember that in the course of that meeting, Mr. Sulejman

12 Tihic joined you, the president of the town board of the Bosanski Samac

13 SDA?

14 A. Yes, I do remember. Mr. Tihic did join us.

15 Q. Is it true that on behalf of the HDZ of the municipality of Samac,

16 there were Mr. Panic [phoen], the president of the municipal board of the

17 HDZ --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the name, the

19 first name.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mato Nujic.

22 A. Could you please repeat the first name?

23 Q. Filip Evic, the president of the municipal board of the HDZ for

24 the Bosanski Samac municipality. Was Mr. Evic there?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8617

1 Q. Was Mato Madjarevic there?

2 A. Yes. I thought that you would ask the question in full.

3 Q. Mato Nujic, was he there?

4 A. Yes, he was.

5 Q. Slavko Matic, was he there?

6 A. No, he was not there.

7 Q. What about Grga Zubak?

8 A. No, Grga Zubak was not there.

9 Q. Was Vinko Dragicevic, the police chief in Bosanski Samac?

10 A. Mr. Pisarevic, I would really like to answer your question. I

11 would like to be able to tell you that I remember, but I don't.

12 Q. It's okay. Was Marko Bozanovic there at the meeting?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Was Kobas Ivo there?

15 A. No. He in particular was not there.

16 Q. Was Miso Mijic, from Grebnice, there?

17 A. Mr. Pisarevic, it's really difficult for me to answer such

18 questions. It took place a long time ago. If you ask me whether a

19 meeting was held in Prud, I said yes. If you mention a few names, I say

20 yes. You can now enumerate 400 people, and perhaps I will remember two or

21 three people. You ask me about the meeting, I say yes, it was. You ask

22 me who came first, I say yes.

23 Q. All right. But do you remember whether some people from Croatia

24 attended the meeting? And I will specify --

25 A. Please do.

Page 8618

1 Q. Stjepan Blazanovic, nicknamed Braco, from Slavonski Brod?

2 A. Yes, he was present. He is from Bosanski Samac.

3 Q. From Slavonski Brod?

4 A. From Bosanski Samac.

5 Q. Can we agree that in fact he was born in the village of Donji

6 Hasic in Bosanski Samac and that he has a permanent residence in Slavonski

7 Brod in the Republic of Croatia?

8 A. Believe me, I did not check his ID.

9 Q. Was there a person representing the Croatian army who was

10 addressed as Major?

11 A. No, Mr. Pisarevic.

12 Q. Was the joint Crisis Staff established at that meeting?

13 A. No, Mr. Pisarevic.

14 Q. On this meeting, was the commander of the paramilitary units in

15 the Croatian villages and of your military unit, which was also a

16 paramilitary unit, was a command established, and Bozanovic, Marko --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

18 MR. WEINER: I'd object to the characterisation of his unit as a

19 paramilitary unit. I'm not certain what a paramilitary unit is, but ...

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

21 MR. WEINER: It has different connotations in different places and

22 areas. He can ask if there were -- assuming there were military units,

23 independent military units in Croatia, he could ask about were persons

24 representing those military units as well as someone else representing

25 yours or someone in addition -- another representative in addition to you,

Page 8619

1 of your military.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We haven't heard evidence that Mr. Fitozovic

3 did have a paramilitary unit.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Your military unit, can we call it that? Your armed unit, can we

6 call it that?

7 A. You mean my personal?

8 Q. The unit that you commanded, the armed unit that was under your

9 command.

10 A. So my armed unit.

11 Q. Was it agreed at that time that daily cooperation should be

12 established between the commander of Marko Bozanovic and yourself?

13 A. Well, we didn't answer the previous question.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think -- that's what I was looking at, to

15 see whether or not it had been answered. The question whether at that

16 meeting was the paramilitary command units of the Croatian villages of --

17 and the witness says "were they established?" I think that question

18 wasn't answered. I think if you can repeat the question, Counsel.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I will rephrase my question.

20 Q. On this meeting, was it decided that Marko Bozanovic, as the

21 commander of the Croatian armed units, and you, as the commander of your

22 armed unit, would become one command, where Marko Bozanovic would be the

23 commander and you would be his deputy?

24 A. No, Mr. Pisarevic. If you let me finish, I'd like to give you --

25 assist you here. In this meeting, we did not discuss these issues. In

Page 8620

1 the previous question you had asked the same thing, and my answer was no.

2 Alija Fitozovic and Marko Bozanovic were not talked about.

3 Q. Now we're going to move on to another meeting. Did you attend the

4 meeting on the 20th of March, 1992, in the village of Prud?

5 A. So the previous question referred to the 19th.

6 Q. Yes, and this is the 20th.

7 A. So the 20th. I really don't know.

8 Q. Let me remind you. In this meeting, a plan was made that had to

9 do with the takeover of Bosanski Samac by your armed units, by your joint

10 armed units.

11 A. No, Mr. Pisarevic. No, absolutely not. No plan was ever made. I

12 can claim this with full responsibility.

13 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Blaz Paradzik from Prud?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. What position did Mr. Blaz hold in the local commune in Prud?

16 A. I know he had some kind of a function. I also know that this

17 function wasn't very important.

18 Q. The commander of the company -- the captain of the company in

19 Prud, was his name Mijo Masic, nicknamed Mis?

20 A. During the war, yes.

21 Q. Do you know if he held this position even before the war?

22 A. I wouldn't know that.

23 Q. Did you then agree that the password or code for the radio

24 connection in Prud would be "konak"?

25 A. Mr. Pisarevic, I wasn't there. Believe me, I wouldn't know.

Page 8621

1 Q. All right, then. We are going to move on to another issue.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: I would like to show the witness the Exhibit D21/1

3 and D21/1 ter.

4 Q. Could you please take a look at this document. Have you ever seen

5 this document before?

6 A. Yes, I have seen it before.

7 Q. This is a document that is named "List of local traitors," is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know what organisation wrote this document?

11 A. I wouldn't say this was done by an organisation.

12 Q. Do you know that an individual was the author of this document?

13 A. Yes, I know that an individual authored that document.

14 Q. Could you tell the Honourable Chamber who this individual was, who

15 is the author of this document?

16 A. It is me, Alija Fitozovic. I am the author of this document.

17 Q. Could you please confirm that the names Ramusovic, Nizam,

18 nicknamed Tota, and Mesic Mersad are on this list?

19 A. I see Ramusovic, Nizam. Yes, Mesic Mersad and son. That's what

20 it says.

21 Q. So both names are on this list?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you further have any knowledge about the fact that Nizam

24 Ramusovic and Mersad Mesic were wounded by the reserve police patrol on

25 the 2nd of April, 1992?

Page 8622

1 A. Could you please repeat your question?

2 Q. Do you know that they were wounded on the 2nd of April, 1992?

3 A. By whom?

4 Q. By a reserve police patrol.

5 A. Yes, I knew of that incident.

6 Q. Could you please answer the following: When did you make this

7 document?

8 A. When?

9 Q. Yes. When?

10 A. In April. I think it was a Tuesday in April of 1992. The date

11 here says the 6th. I think this happened just before the market day, and

12 I distributed this around the town.

13 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that this happened in March of

14 1992?

15 A. In March of 1992, this document did not exist. It was written in

16 early April.

17 Q. In 1992?

18 A. Yes, in 1992.

19 Q. Can you confirm the fact that this wounding happened on the 2nd of

20 April, 1992?

21 A. Yesterday or the day before yesterday when I testified, I said

22 that this happened in early March, during a killing attempt, when there

23 was an attempt to kill me.

24 Q. So it is your claim that this happened in early March 1992; is

25 that correct?

Page 8623

1 A. I agree. Yes, in early March 1992.

2 Q. When this shooting happened, did you go into the street and see

3 this event?

4 A. Yes. I went into the street and I saw this event.

5 Q. And you saw these persons that were wounded?

6 A. Yes, and we helped them. It was on the corner by the houses of

7 the Fitozovic -- that belonged to the Fitozovic family. We put them in

8 cars and we took them to the emergency room.

9 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, on that occasion did you see that these persons

10 wore civilian clothes?

11 A. Yes, they wore civilian clothes. They were armed with automatic

12 weapons.

13 Q. You say that they were armed. What did Mesic, Mersad have? What

14 kind of weapons?

15 A. Mersad Mesic had a pistol.

16 Q. What did Nizam Ramusovic have?

17 A. Nizam Ramusovic had an automatic rifle. I think it was a PPS, a

18 Russian rifle.

19 Q. What kind of weapon did Danilo Vitomir have?

20 A. He had the same type of weapon an automatic weapon.

21 Q. What happened with these weapons after they were taken to get

22 medical help?

23 A. You see, while I was being trained, for me the human factor was

24 always the most important, and the materiel and equipment was only

25 second. So I really don't know what happened to those weapons.

Page 8624

1 Q. According to some rules, those weapons should have stayed in that

2 same place, on the scene.

3 A. Probably, but I don't know whose rules those would be.

4 Q. Sir, Mr. Fitozovic, those are the rules of the competent services,

5 such as the criminal investigating service?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

7 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I don't think this witness is the

8 appropriate person to discuss police protocol.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

10 Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. You've heard the objection.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw my question, Your

12 Honour.

13 Q. Do you know where these weapons ended? Who took them?

14 A. I really don't know.

15 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that in this police patrol

16 that was shooting at the yellow Lada in which there were three persons,

17 Srna, Sead and Izetbegovic, Adis were part of that police patrol?

18 A. You're not correct, Mr. Pisarevic.

19 Q. Do you know or not?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know what members of the police patrol did the shooting?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Could you please say who those persons are?

24 A. [redacted] and I do not know

25 what kinds of consequences they would have if I would give their names.

Page 8625

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction. The witness had

2 previously said yes, he did know the names of those persons.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So from what I understand, you are concerned to give out their

5 names because of their safety.

6 A. Yes, because of their safety and because of my own safety.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

8 MR. WEINER: I was just going to say, if we continue on, could we

9 go into closed session, if we're going to get any -- if we're going to

10 start giving any information which could identify who these persons are?

11 I've got no problem with introducing this evidence, but at least we do it

12 in closed session. And also, could, if possible, could they strike from

13 the record that phrase that these people are in Bosanski Samac at this

14 time?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, to keep that information out of the public --

16 MR. WEINER: Out of the public, yes.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Yes, that will be done.

18 Mr. Pisarevic, if it's in support of your defence to ask for the

19 names, then we may go into private session.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] If I may have a moment, Your

21 Honour.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, if we could go into closed

24 session.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we go into private session.

Page 8626

1 [Private session]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 8627

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25 [redacted]

Page 8628

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

8 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I would object. Can we go into closed

9 session for this?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, you wanted it redacted?

11 MR. WEINER: Yes.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Because we are discussing --

13 MR. WEINER: We are discussing matters --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: It's continuing to be -- okay.

15 Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. You did say there's no reason for continued

16 closed session, but it appears you are continuing on the same -- so we

17 shall have this latter part redacted, and are you still going to ask

18 questions about these individuals?

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the only question

20 that I had was whether they left Bosanski Samac on that night in 1992.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the Republic of Croatia.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Yes, to the Republic of Croatia.

24 A. I said that from that day on I no longer saw them.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no

Page 8629

1 further questions on this topic.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. I think we'll keep all that redacted

3 from the public record.

4 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: We can now go into open session -- we're still in

6 open session, yes.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Mersad Mesic died of his wounds a

9 while later?

10 A. No, I'm not aware of that, because there was the war going on at

11 that time.

12 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Vitomir Danilo and Nizam Ramusovic

13 sustained serious injuries in that incident?

14 A. I don't know what kind of injuries they sustained.

15 Q. Now --

16 A. Just a moment. If it's important, Mr. Danilo actually made a

17 window on my house a few days ago.

18 Q. Now we will start discussing some topics that are closer in time.

19 I'm referring to the 13th of April, 1992. Were you present at a meeting

20 in the village of Grebnice, the Bosanski Samac municipality, on the 13th

21 of April, 1992?

22 A. I was present at a meeting in Grebnice, but I don't know whether

23 it was on that date, the 13th of April, 1992.

24 Q. Was this meeting organised in relation for the purpose of

25 determining the proposals for the appointments to the posts of the

Page 8630

1 commander of the Territorial Defence and the Chief of Staff of the

2 Territorial Defence?

3 A. So according to you, there were two meetings for the appointment

4 of the commander and the chief of staff of the Territorial Defence, one in

5 Prud and one in Grebnice.

6 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, I asked you about the Territorial Defence, whether,

7 on the 13th of April, 1992, a meeting of this nature was held in

8 Grebnice?

9 A. On the 13th of April - this date is familiar to me - a meeting was

10 held on the premises of the Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Samac, and the

11 meeting was attended by Mr. Batnovic [phoen], the president of the

12 municipality; Mr. Izetbegovic, the vice-president of the executive board;

13 the president of the executive board, Mirko Jovanovic, and the Territorial

14 Defence was discussed at that meeting. And Mr. Mirko Jovanovic did not

15 want to give his approval for the establishment of the Territorial

16 Defence. That's as far as the 13th of April, 1992 is concerned in

17 relation to the issue of the establishment of the Territorial Defence.

18 Q. After that meeting in the Municipal Assembly, did you, the

19 representatives of the SDA, and those of the HDZ, did you hold a meeting

20 in the Croat village of Grebnice? Yes or no.

21 A. How can I answer with yes or no when we discussed these issues

22 before? On the 13th of April, 1992, after the meeting in the municipal

23 building, it is possible that a meeting was held in Grebnice, and I was

24 present at the meeting, and at that meeting decisions about the

25 appointments to the post of the chief of staff and the commander of the TO

Page 8631

1 were not taken, because these decisions were made and these facts were

2 known even at the meeting held at the Municipal Assembly in Bosanski

3 Samac.

4 Q. So at the meeting in the Municipal Assembly in Bosanski Samac,

5 there was no consensus about the appointment to the post of the commander

6 and the chief of staff of the Territorial Defence because the

7 representative of the SDS and of the Serb people refused to give his

8 approval?

9 A. Well, there was the Serb Territorial Defence. It existed up until

10 that day. And then the rest, Croats and Muslims, as the self-organised

11 people that needed the Territorial Defence as a way to organise themselves

12 and to protect, through the Territorial Defence, the people and the

13 property and so on and so forth belonging to the rest of the population of

14 Bosanski Samac.

15 Q. Please allow me. Did you then set up the Territorial Defence only

16 for ethnic Muslims and Croats?

17 A. The Territorial Defence of the Serb people was set up one year

18 before that. It was set up, it was armed, and it was reinforced by the

19 troops from another republic, Mr. Pisarevic. And the Muslim people and

20 the Croat people organised themselves, through the units that you refer to

21 as paramilitary. So we organised ourselves in the town. We were not

22 under the auspices of any of the political parties.

23 The same thing happened in Croat local communes, where the people

24 organised themselves, and they wanted to make these organisations that

25 they set up themselves official through an institution that was made

Page 8632

1 pursuant to the order issued by the presidency and the government of

2 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

3 Q. Can we agree that up until that time, there was no possibility for

4 such forces to be set up or organised as the Territorial Defence?

5 A. The Territorial Defence that existed up until the decision of the

6 presidency and the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina did not function,

7 or, in fact, it placed itself at the disposal of the 17th Tactical Group.

8 Up until that time, all the detachments had already been formed, all the

9 Serb brigades were already established, and the JNA was there.

10 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, since now we're talking about the establishment of

11 the Territorial Defence staff, so you deny that on the 13th of April,

12 1992, a meeting was held in Grebnice; is that so?

13 A. I said that a meeting had been held in Grebnice, but I do not know

14 whether it was held on the 13th of April.

15 Q. Can you remember if Mr. Dragan Lukac was present at the meeting?

16 A. No. In Grebnice, you mean?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. I don't think so. There would be no reason for me not to say it,

19 but I really don't remember. I would really like to be able to assist

20 you. If I were sure that he was there, I would say it, but I really am

21 not sure.

22 Q. I have here before me your statement that you gave on the 13th,

23 14th, and 16th of February, 1995. On page 5 you said:

24 "Around the 5th of April --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down when reading.

Page 8633

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, the interpreters have to follow you

2 when reading, so can you please read slowly. Can you start again.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

4 "Around the 5th of April, 1992, there was a request for the

5 Ministry of Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina that all paramilitary units

6 become legalised. The only way to become legal was to enter the TO,

7 Territorial Defence."

8 Q. Is that correct?

9 MR. WEINER: Objection.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Are these your words?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: What's the objection?

13 MR. WEINER: I was going to say --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MR. WEINER: I was going to say, I have no problem with him

16 stating whether or not those are his words. If they want to start getting

17 into legality of different groups, I'm going to be objecting.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought the whole question -- the whole thing was

19 a quotation from the statement.

20 MR. WEINER: Yes. If he said it, I have no problem. If they

21 continue on talking in terms of legality of different groups, I will be

22 objecting. That's all. Sorry. I'll withdraw.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I don't want to discuss whether groups were legal or illegal. I

Page 8634

1 just wanted to ask you whether you did in fact state this on the 13th,

2 14th, and 15th of February, 1995, in the statement that you gave to the

3 investigators of the OTP.

4 A. Let me tell you something about this statement. It was given on

5 the 15th, 14th, 16th, and 17th.

6 Q. 13th, 14th, and 16th of February, 1995. That's what it says here.

7 A. Yes. At the time when I gave this statement, the war was still

8 going on. The war had not been finished at that time. There may be some

9 subjective elements there, but that's why I'm here before this Trial

10 Chamber, to clarify matters. If I said that this was around the 5th, and

11 if I learned now that it was the 8th, then I'm ready to accept that the

12 8th is the date. I can even then accept this quotation that you've just

13 read to me.

14 Q. I agree with you, but at that time you probably had a better

15 recollection of the things, the events, because your memory was fresher.

16 I would allow that your recollection would be poorer now, after all

17 years. Isn't that so?

18 A. Well, now I'm given enough time to be able to remember better.

19 These things were recorded during the war, when I didn't know whether I

20 would live to see another day. So I didn't even know whether I would be

21 able to hold the statement in my hands any more, or to see it again.

22 Q. Okay. Let's go on. As far as my information indicates, the

23 president of the assembly, Mato Nujic, issued an order on the 13th of

24 April for the Territorial Defence to be established. Do you remember that

25 order?

Page 8635

1 A. I do remember that order.

2 Q. All right.

3 A. It was the result of the meeting that I talked about a little

4 while ago, in the premises of the Municipal Assembly.

5 Q. Who proposed you and Marko Bozanovic to the minister Jerko Doko

6 for your appointment?

7 A. The competent municipal authority of the Bosanski Samac

8 municipality.

9 Q. Do you know which is the competent authority in the municipality

10 of Bosanski Samac in charge of these issues?

11 A. Believe me, I don't know.

12 Q. Do you know that on the 13th, 14th, and 15th, whether you know

13 that on these dates any session of the Municipal Assembly was held?

14 A. I was not a delegate in the assembly of the municipality of

15 Bosanski Samac, so I really wouldn't know.

16 Q. Well, then you should just say that you don't know.

17 A. I was not a delegate there.

18 Q. Could we agree that Serbs and the Serbian Democratic Party that

19 participated in the government in the municipality of Bosanski Samac did

20 not participate in the decision-making process that had to do with

21 choosing the commander and the chief of staff of the TO?

22 A. No, we cannot agree on this, because there was a Serbian

23 Territorial Defence.

24 Q. Very well. Now we are going to talk a little bit about the

25 session that was held in Bosanski Samac on the 16th of April, 1992. You

Page 8636

1 have already said that you had attended this meeting and that other

2 members of political parties were there as well. Do you remember that

3 when some suggestions were made that the 4th Detachment should be joined

4 to the Territorial Defence, Zaric said the following: That he was not

5 authorised, nor was he the person that makes decisions regarding the 4th

6 Detachment of the JNA whether it could join the Territorial Defence of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina or not?

8 A. I am not familiar with this quote of what the defendant Simo Zaric

9 said. I said what he stated at that meeting.

10 Q. What did Mr. Zaric say to you at that time when you suggested that

11 the 4th Detachment join the Territorial Defence?

12 A. He said that the Territorial Defence, such as it was set up, that

13 it was illegal, that it was created in illegal ways in the presidency and

14 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that the only unit or formation that

15 was a regular unit, and in accordance with the laws of the then

16 Yugoslavia, in the town was -- and the only unit that would defend

17 everybody, both Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, from any aggression was the

18 4th Detachment.

19 Q. Just bear with me for a second. Did the 4th Detachment belong to

20 the Yugoslav People's Army? Yes or no.

21 A. It belonged to the 17th Tactical Group that was located in Bosnia

22 and Herzegovina.

23 Q. Please tell me the following: What organisation or institution

24 did the 17th Tactical Group belong? I would say that it belonged to the

25 Yugoslav People's Army. Isn't that correct?

Page 8637

1 A. I also think that the Arkan's and Seselj's units belonged to the

2 Yugoslav People's Army at that time.

3 Q. So it is your claim that the command and the 17th Tactical Group

4 were not part of the JNA?

5 A. That is not what I claim. I claim that both the 4th Detachment

6 and the 17th Tactical Group and the Grey Wolves and Arkan's units were all

7 part of one military. How that military was called at the time, I

8 wouldn't be able to tell you.

9 Q. Are you aware of the fact that at that time in the territory of

10 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina there existed the JNA, that is to

11 say, it was stationed there?

12 A. Yes, I'm aware of that fact. It existed there, along with the

13 other units I mentioned: Arkan's and also the Grey Wolves units. These

14 units were JNA's reinforcements.

15 Q. You said that this meeting ended sometime around 10.00 p.m.; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes, we could say it was around 10.00 p.m.

18 Q. You also said that you went to a Cafe Rustika?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You and Mr. Lukac?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, except for you and Mr. Lukac, was there somebody

23 else in your company there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you tell me who this person was?

Page 8638

1 A. Marko Bozanovic.

2 Q. How long did Mr. Bozanovic stay in your company?

3 A. All of us stayed in the restaurant for about 10 or 15 minutes.

4 Q. When you separated, did everybody go their own way or did some of

5 you remain together?

6 A. Before we parted, Mr. Marko Bozanovic -- he left about two minutes

7 earlier than that. I don't know if that's relative or not. After those

8 two minutes, both Mr. Lukac and I parted ways.

9 Q. So if I understood you correctly, Mr. Lukac and Marko Bozanovic

10 did not leave home together.

11 A. Dragan went to his home and Marko Bozanovic went to his home.

12 Q. I conclude that you did not mention Mr. Tihic that evening in

13 Rustika. He wasn't there; is that correct?

14 A. I didn't mention him, and I don't believe he was there.

15 Q. Later during that evening, did you see or speak to Mr. Tihic?

16 A. I allow the possibility that I talked to him, but I did not see

17 him.

18 Q. From what I understand, you went to the Cafe Molla; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then you went to Grebnice after that and then you returned; is

22 that correct?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Maybe I didn't understand you correctly. Did you go that evening,

25 around 10.00 p.m. --

Page 8639

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Around 2400, around midnight, to Grebnice, in your own car?

4 A. No. At that time I did not own my car, and I really don't know

5 where you get this information from that I was in Grebnice. I wasn't

6 there.

7 Q. Did you travel there with a car?

8 A. With some car.

9 Q. With some car that wasn't your own property, did you drive with

10 some car to the silo in Bosanski Samac?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you please tell me what kind of a car this was? What make

13 was it?

14 A. You can correct me if I'm wrong. It was a Golf Caddy, or it was a

15 Zastava 101 Caddy. But in any case, it was like a station wagon. Whether

16 it was a Zastava or a Golf, I don't know.

17 Q. Were you alone in the car?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If I understood you correctly, at that time, at the veterinary

20 station, on your checkpoint, you left about 8 to 10 members of your unit;

21 is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. After some time you were at the police station in Samac?

24 A. After some time. I was at the police station at 2.00 sharp, and I

25 saw late Luka Gregurevic there. He was the officer on duty.

Page 8640

1 Q. Then you went to Prud; is that correct?

2 A. Yes. But before I went to Prud, I phoned. I made a phone call.

3 I asked the duty officer, Luka, to call number 62611, but he could not get

4 through to Prud because the phone lines had already gone dead. And the

5 police officer --

6 Q. Sir, I don't want you to repeat these things. We have already

7 heard about this. My question has to do with your going to Prud. You

8 might think that I don't want to hear this, but that is only because we've

9 already heard it, and I don't want us to repeat the same topics.

10 Everything that you have said has been recorded, so you have nothing to

11 worry about. Everything that you have said in this courtroom has been

12 recorded.

13 What I want to know about is about your going to Prud. So this is

14 my following question: Is Prud a Croatian village and is it across the

15 River Bosna?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. To reach the village of Prud, there is a bridge over the River

18 Bosna; is that correct?

19 A. There are two bridges.

20 Q. Could you please tell me the following: With whom did you go to

21 the village of Prud?

22 A. With Mr. Namik Suljic.

23 Q. So the first time you went to Prud you went there with Mr. Namik

24 Suljic, the deputy commander of the police in Bosanski Samac?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8641

1 Q. Did you go there in a police car?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did Mr. Suljic at that time have a Motorola on him, or a

4 walkie-talkie?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you, Mr. Fitozovic, have your own Motorola or walkie-talkie?

7 A. No, Mr. Pisarevic. Let me remind you: I was in a meeting with

8 the defendant Zaric, and this is how I was dressed.

9 Q. So you did not have a Motorola?

10 A. No, I did not have a Motorola.

11 Q. When you arrived in Prud, where did you go? Into what building or

12 into what institution did you go?

13 A. I went to the community centre that was in the village.

14 Q. Was the command of a military armed unit of the village of Prud

15 situated in this building?

16 A. The village of Prud joined, in its entirety, to the Territorial

17 Defence of the municipality of Bosanski Samac, and therefore we can now

18 officially say that this was a unit of the regular Territorial Defence of

19 the newly formed Territorial Defence. Yes, the command centre of the unit

20 of the Prud Territorial Defence was there.

21 Q. This command post, was it equipped with a radio?

22 A. Yes. It had a stationary radio -- it had a stationary radio

23 station.

24 Q. Did you find the entire command of this TO unit there?

25 A. This is a very general question.

Page 8642

1 Q. Well, you were the chief of staff. You should know who the

2 command is of a TO unit, and you should know who the command of this TO

3 unit in Prud was. Who was the commander of the TO unit in Prud?

4 A. Well, now we have three questions instead of one. Could you

5 please make a decision which one I should answer.

6 Q. Well, the Territorial Defence of Bosanski Samac, did it have a TO

7 unit in Prud?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell us: Who was the commander of this Territorial

10 Defence unit in the local commune of Prud?

11 A. Believe me, that was the first time that I made the visit there

12 from the time when I became the chief of staff of the TO, and so that was

13 my first visit there. So I did not know the names of the members of the

14 command and the functions of the people there.

15 Q. Can you please tell me: Who appoints -- I mean, is it the

16 commander or the chief of staff, the commanders of the TO units, for

17 instance, in the local communes in the municipality of Bosanski Samac?

18 A. They are appointed by the Territorial Defence staff.

19 Q. Can you please tell me: Who makes the proposal to the Territorial

20 Defence staff for the appointment of a certain person to such a position

21 in the command?

22 A. Mr. Pisarevic, until the beginning of the aggression, I was at

23 that post for only four or five days, maybe even less, three days, four

24 days maybe, so I was unable to read the relevant documents and laws.

25 Q. Okay. I will move on to another topic. Can you please tell me:

Page 8643

1 Did the Territorial Defence staff, in all the local communes of the

2 Bosanski Samac municipality, did it establish TO units and appoint the

3 people to the command and the commanders of such units?

4 A. Yes, at the level of the entire municipality of Bosanski Samac,

5 the Territorial Defence was established on this level, and in each local

6 commune.

7 Q. Did Namik Suljic, the assistant to the commander of the police,

8 remain with you in Prud the entire time, in the command of the Territorial

9 Defence?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did Namik Suljic go back to Bosanski Samac?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you please tell us how many times Mr. Namik Suljic went from

14 Bosanski Samac to Prud, and the other way around, between 2.00 and 8.00

15 a.m.?

16 A. Until 8.00 a.m.?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. As far as I recall, he went there once with me to Prud, when it

19 was possible to do so, because there was gunfire. Fire was opened by the

20 members of the 4th Detachment. He went back. And then until 8.00 a.m.,

21 Mr. Namik Suljic went to Prud once and then came back from Prud to Samac,

22 and I was still in Prud at that time.

23 Q. So if I understand you correctly, Namik Suljic went to Prud only

24 once.

25 A. Yes, until 8.00, only once.

Page 8644

1 Q. While you and Mr. Namik Suljic were driving in the police car, was

2 the Motorola on, and did Mr. Suljic talk to anyone?

3 A. The Motorola was on, the Motorola that Mr. Namik Suljic had.

4 That's why I had to think about it when I was trying to answer your

5 previous question regarding this Motorola. I didn't hear any

6 communication that he may have had over this Motorola. I don't know who

7 he may have talked to.

8 Q. Did you see him speak over the Motorola?

9 A. No, I didn't see him speak over the Motorola, but I do know that

10 he had one.

11 Q. So you did not have your Motorola with you while you were in Prud;

12 is that correct?

13 A. I, as Alija Fitozovic, did not have the Motorola on me. I did not

14 own one, and it was not issued to me by the unit.

15 Q. In the course of that day - I'm referring to the 17th of April,

16 1992 - did Mr. Ibrahim Salkic come?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us around what time it happened?

19 A. I think it was at around 8.00, half past 8.00, perhaps even 9.00.

20 Believe me, I can't remember.

21 Q. Did Mr. Salkic have a Motorola or any kind of radio with him?

22 A. No, I don't think so.

23 Q. So only Mr. Namik Suljic had a Motorola; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And there was a stationary radio station located in the command

Page 8645

1 building in the community centre in Prud that belonged to the unit of the

2 local commune in Prud?

3 A. Yes, that's correct. If I may, just a moment. Ibrahim Salkic did

4 find somebody's Motorola. He found the Motorola either in the town or

5 somewhere around the old hotel. So he found a Motorola.

6 Q. Where? In Samac or in Prud?

7 A. In the town itself.

8 Q. So you're saying that Mr. Salkic found a Motorola while he was in

9 the town of Samac?

10 A. Yes. It seems to me that he found a Motorola that had been

11 dropped by Mr. Namik Suljic. Yes, that's it. That's correct. Namik

12 Suljic lost his Motorola, and then he got another Motorola from the late

13 Luka Gregurevic.

14 Q. Okay. We'll have to take it slowly to clear this up.

15 A. Well, if it's really that important, I will do my best to assist

16 you, as far as I can remember.

17 Q. So if I understood you correctly, Namik lost his Motorola before

18 2.00 a.m. on the 17th of April, 1992, in the town of Samac.

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. When did Luka Gregurevic, the police officer in the Samac police

21 station, give him the new Motorola, I mean to Namik Suljic?

22 A. At around 10 past 2.00.

23 Q. That was precisely at the time when you and Mr. Suljic, Namik

24 Suljic, headed towards the village of Prud?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 8646

1 Q. When did you see Mr. Namik Suljic again in the village of Prud,

2 and did you see him at all?

3 A. Do you mean after 8.00?

4 Q. Yes, after everything.

5 A. Yes, I saw him once again. It was at around 9.30 or maybe 10.00.

6 Q. On the 17th of April, 1992, you saw him in Prud?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you notice at that time that Mr. Namik Suljic had the Motorola

9 that was given to him by the police officer, Luka Gregurevic?

10 A. I think that at that time Namik did not have a Motorola. That was

11 the time when we tried to break through and reach Bosanski Samac, but we

12 failed.

13 Q. Can you remember: When Mr. Namik Suljic went back to Bosanski

14 Samac, did he take the Motorola with him?

15 A. I don't think he took the Motorola with him. Let me make things

16 easier for you. I remember the Motorola that responded to number 612,

17 when that number was dialed. That's the only thing I can remember. And

18 perhaps it will be of great assistance.

19 Q. I'm sorry. It's not of any assistance. The only thing I'm

20 interested in is what happened to the Motorola of Mr. Namik Suljic. Did

21 Mr. Namik Suljic perhaps leave the Motorola with you?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Do you remember if he left his Motorola with any other person that

24 was present there?

25 A. I don't remember.

Page 8647

1 Q. You were there the entire time?

2 A. Where?

3 Q. In the command of the local commune of Prud.

4 A. Well, "the whole time," it's a relative term. Until what time?

5 Until what date?

6 Q. Until you came back to Bosanski Samac.

7 A. Yes. I was there in Prud in this time period that you're

8 referring to.

9 Q. Well, did you see that any of the people that you met there had

10 the Motorola of Mr. Namik Suljic?

11 A. Well, all Motorolas are the same, and I can't tell which one

12 belongs to which person. I wanted to assist you. I said that that

13 Motorola, its call sign was 612. So when you heard the message "612

14 calling 612," that person holding that Motorola would respond saying,

15 "612, please go ahead." So that was its call sign.

16 Q. Very well. Can you please tell me: On what device did you hear

17 the voice of Mr. Simo Zaric?

18 A. On the stationary radio station, on the radio communications of

19 the Prud unit. One station was operational and the other one was used to

20 scan the frequencies.

21 Q. Can you tell me: How well could you hear it?

22 A. It was perfect. I could hear it as well as I can hear you now

23 here.

24 Q. All right. All right. Can you please tell me: Do you have any

25 expert knowledge about the recognition of voices over the radio and so on?

Page 8648

1 A. I don't have any certificate to that effect.

2 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What about a break?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: We are adjourning at 1800 hours, so -- we are going

5 to adjourn at 1800 hours, so you can continue.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I will ask you just a few questions --

8 MR. WEINER: Excuse me, Your Honour. Is the witness indicating he

9 needs a bathroom break at this point or ...

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. Maybe the witness needs to have a break.

11 MR. WEINER: If we could do it in a quick two or three minutes

12 and -- if he needs it. I'm not certain.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Let's just adjourn until tomorrow, 1415 hours,

14 all right?

15 MR. WEINER: Could I just get one thing?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. WEINER: We've got to make some decisions on calling a witness

18 tomorrow. If I could get some idea from the Defence how much longer, so

19 if I should have some --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Indication.

21 MR. WEINER: To see if we need somebody ready. I just don't know

22 if he's going to go the rest of the day.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic?

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Ten minutes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: What? I didn't hear you.

Page 8649

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Ten minutes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

3 And Mr. Lukic?

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will take an hour and a half, just

5 as I anticipated yesterday.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So that gives you some idea.

7 I think, Mr. Pantelic, it's still the same like yesterday?

8 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, even less, also as I mentioned yesterday,

9 depending on the areas, and I think even less than one hour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because even tomorrow we are going to rise at

11 1800 hours. So the Court will rise until tomorrow at 1415 hours.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.49 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Friday, the 31st day of

14 May, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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