Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8903

1 Wednesday, 5 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic and

9 Simo Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution is continuing with the

11 examination-in-chief.

12 MS. REIDY: Thank you. Good morning, Your Honours.

13 WITNESS: JELENA KAPETANOVIC [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examination by Ms. Reidy: [Continued]

16 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Kapetanovic. Can you hear me?

17 THE INTERPRETER: The witness does not have the microphone on.

18 A. Yes, I can hear you. Good morning.

19 Q. Good morning. At the end of yesterday's testimony, you had just

20 begun to describe the events of the night of the 16th to the 17th of

21 April, 1992, in Bosanski Samac. And you had described to the Chamber how

22 you had been awoken by gunfire and how that, during the passage of the

23 night from about 1.30 in the morning through to dawn, you had received

24 various forms of information from a number of neighbours living in the

25 same apartment block as you. And you finished by telling us that in the

Page 8904

1 early morning, that the group of special units and 4th Detachment had come

2 to the apartment block and that the person who had -- was at the entrance

3 of your apartment was one of the defendants, Mr. Miroslav Tadic. Do you

4 recall ending on that testimony yesterday afternoon?

5 A. Yes, I remember.

6 MS. REIDY: Could I ask if the witness could be given P68 ID?

7 That's a diagram of Edvard Kardelj block number 62, with the ERN 02199070.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have an objection regarding the

10 question that my colleague from the Prosecution asked. I said that -- I

11 don't think that the time was stated yesterday in the record when the

12 4th Detachment members came, and the question that the Prosecutor asked

13 now states that it happened at 1.30. However, I don't remember that the

14 witness stated yesterday when the members came to her building. Or if the

15 Prosecutor could indicate exactly in the record where the witness stated

16 the time.

17 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour. 1.30 was not the time of the

18 arrival of the 4th Detachment, and I don't believe that's what I said. I

19 said, "the passage of the night from about 1.30 in the morning through to

20 dawn." And the witness on the unofficial transcript indicated the time --

21 let me see -- at 1.30, about 1.30 in the morning, when she woke up. And

22 that was at line 7 on page 84 of yesterday's transcript. And then she

23 went on to describe during the night how there had been a number of

24 telephone calls received and that special -- 4th Detachment and

25 special units arrived and that it was then later, after these events had

Page 8905

1 passed, that the 4th Detachment and special units arrived and

2 Mr. Miroslav Tadic was at the entrance, was standing by her entranceway,

3 and that is at page 90 of yesterday's unofficial transcript.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My remark was that the witness said no

6 where that in the early hours they came to her apartment building. That's

7 what the question was. And on page 90, in the answer, it was said -- the

8 question was whether she saw some of the defendants. The witness said,

9 [In English] "I didn't know about it but later I had opportunity one of

10 the defendants standing by my entrance."

11 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have this clarified,

13 if possible, or if the Prosecution could maybe change the question and

14 reword it.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I think the problem is the fact that the witness did

16 say she woke up around 1.30 and then the events unfolded towards -- as

17 dawn was breaking. And then just deal with that, Miss Reidy, with the

18 witness.

19 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour. I don't think that's a

20 problem at all.

21 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, you testified yesterday that at some stage,

22 special units and sections of the 4th Detachment arrived towards your

23 building. Could you tell us about what time it was when these special

24 forces and the 4th Detachment came to the apartment block?

25 A. Yes, I can answer this question. This happened in the early hours

Page 8906

1 before noon. I could never -- I never knew the exact time and I don't

2 think I could give you the exact time now because I didn't consult my

3 watch, but it felt like an eternity.

4 Q. And you also testified yesterday that you then had the opportunity

5 to see Mr. Miroslav Tadic standing at your entranceway. Could you tell

6 us, to the best of your recollection, what time this was, when you saw

7 Mr. Tadic standing at the entranceway to your apartment?

8 A. I can say that they had already started, the night was over, it

9 was already visible, but I could not give you the exact hour. The only

10 thing I can say is that it was early and it was before noon.

11 Q. So can I clarify, you said that the 4th Detachment and the special

12 units arrived sometime in the morning before noon - you can't be very

13 specific - and I understand you to say that you saw Miroslav Tadic in your

14 entranceway at the same time. Did these incidents coincide more or less,

15 the arrival of the 4th Detachment and the special units, and then your

16 subsequent sighting of Miroslav Tadic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Could I ask you now to look at the diagram in front of

19 you on your screen? And it's P68 ID for the record. Yesterday you

20 marked with an "A" where your apartment block is. On the diagram, there

21 are a number of arrows - we will start with the left-hand street - a

22 number of arrows drawn on which you instructed to be drawn. Could you

23 please explain to the Court what the arrows on the left-hand street

24 represent?

25 A. I can explain this. These arrows represent the direction of the

Page 8907

1 movement of the 4th Detachment, that is to say, of the first soldiers that

2 I saw in my entire life.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the Witness use the pointer to show us which

5 arrows she's talking about?

6 MS. REIDY:

7 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, can I ask you to take the pointer and show us

8 where you said you've seen -- you saw the first movements of the 4th

9 Detachment?

10 A. The 4th Detachment members were passing by this street. They were

11 moving slowly in this direction.

12 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me -- the movement you saw on the

13 street, you've indicated. Was that soldiers on foot, were they in

14 vehicles or was it a mixture of vehicles and foot soldiers?

15 A. It was a mixture. In this direction, there was an armoured

16 vehicle moving, and on the side of the vehicle and in front of the

17 vehicle, there were pedestrians, people on foot.

18 Q. And people on foot, these were -- were these people on foot armed

19 and wearing camouflage or military uniforms?

20 A. Yes. They had full weapons on them and they wore camouflage

21 uniforms.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, do see there is a building, in fact, just where

23 you have the pointer on, a building with lots of entrances? Could you

24 just explain to the Chamber what that building is? It's a building in

25 front of 62 Edvard Kardelj.

Page 8908

1 A. The building in front, I think you're referring to this one here,

2 is a set of garages and they have entrances from this and this side.

3 Q. Thank you. And in front of the garages is indicated at the end of

4 the arrows what I understand is to be a -- I believe it to be the -- an

5 armoured vehicle, where an armoured vehicle stopped; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Did you witness all these movements from your apartment on the

8 second floor, the third level, of 62 Edvard Kardelj?

9 A. Yes. I saw this with my own eyes.

10 Q. Is that the only armoured vehicle that stopped in front of your

11 house that morning, or the only one that you could see from your font

12 window?

13 A. I saw this one vehicle, and that was quite enough.

14 Q. Could you also, for the record, explain what is represented by the

15 arrows on the right-hand side that come in from Edvard Kardelj Street, the

16 two arrows which from the right-hand side then that pass down by

17 entrances 7, 6 and 5 of your apartment complex?

18 A. Certainly. The first arrow indicates the entrance, the main

19 entrance, into our building area. The second arrow indicates the pathway

20 that leads to all the entrances into the building.

21 Q. And did you see any movement of soldiers or other persons that

22 morning of the 17th of April in around the area where you just indicated

23 where the arrows are on the right-hand side?

24 A. No. I did not notice it.

25 Q. So all the activity came from the left-hand side of your apartment

Page 8909

1 building; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. Thank you. When --

4 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a question, just a small question. The

5 street where the arrows are on the left-hand side, what's the name of that

6 street? On the right-hand side, you had Edvard Kardelj Street, but where

7 you saw the movement of the 4th Detachment and the armed vehicle, what's

8 the name of that street?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this very moment, I can't

10 remember.

11 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

12 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

13 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, you've told the Chamber that from your front

14 living-room, you observed this movement of 4th Detachment and the armoured

15 vehicle coming to park in front of the garages belonging to your apartment

16 complex. Could you tell the Chamber what happened after the armoured

17 vehicle came to a stop?

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, before the witness answers that

19 question, I would like to know how high, how tall, the garage building is,

20 because looking at the map, it would seem that the garage building and the

21 witness's apartment building -- well, the garage building could well

22 obscure the street, the no-name street. I want to know how tall the

23 garage building is, and in relation to the witness's apartment building,

24 from her window, could she see over the top of the garage building.

25 MS. REIDY:

Page 8910

1 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I think Her Honour's questions are clear. Could

2 you explain the relation -- the height of your building compared to the

3 garage and the view, obstructed or otherwise, you would have had from your

4 front living-room window?

5 A. The building that we are talking about, that is located here, is a

6 prefabricated building and it consists of a larger number of prefabricated

7 garages, and its height is no where more than 2 metres. The building does

8 not have a roof. It has a flat ceiling. I lived on the second floor. I

9 wouldn't be able to tell you what height my floor is on, but I had

10 visibility of this entire area.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

12 MS. REIDY:

13 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Now, Mrs. Kapetanovic, I had

14 asked if you could tell the Chamber what happened immediately after the

15 armoured vehicle you were watching came to stop in front of the garage

16 building belonging to your apartment complex.

17 A. You could hear commands, fast movements of soldiers could be seen.

18 Q. What sort of commands could you hear? What --

19 A. They were very short, very strict. They were indicated direction

20 of their movement and the entrances into which they were supposed to go

21 in.

22 Q. So were they commands telling the soldiers what action they should

23 take? Is that the sort of command you're talking about?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you do in -- what did you do when you saw this vehicle

Page 8911

1 pulling up and then you heard the commands being given to soldiers and

2 soldiers moving quickly? What was your reaction to this incident?

3 A. I tried to wait for this moment as peacefully and as calmly as I

4 could. I mean, I tried to wait for my encounter with the soldiers in this

5 manner.

6 Q. What were you are doing in your apartment at this time, as you

7 said, to try to keep everything calm and peaceful, as you said?

8 A. I tried to create an image of a spontaneous welcome. I took a

9 bowl with eggs, as if I was going to make a cake for Easter. When I -- I

10 gave my dog, Peggy, to my husband - then boyfriend - so that it would not

11 look as if he had weapons in his hands.

12 Q. So you tried to create an air of normality, is that it?

13 A. Yes. That's exactly right, as if guests were arriving.

14 Q. Did members of these special units and 4th Detachment enter

15 entrance number 2, the entrance to your apartment block?

16 A. Yes, they did.

17 Q. And how did you know that they had entered your entrance?

18 A. Because of the noise that could be heard inside the entrance, in

19 the hallways.

20 Q. And was this general noise or could you also hear instructions

21 being shouted?

22 A. I heard instructions, commands.

23 Q. Can you recall what the instructions were that you heard?

24 A. "Open the door," and things like that.

25 Q. And what did you do when you could -- when you heard these

Page 8912

1 instructions being shouted?

2 A. I opened the door, with my bowl in my hand, and I went downstairs

3 and my husband went with me.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you. Could I just for this introduction ask that the

5 witness be shown P69 ID, which is the diagram that just depicts her

6 apartment block? And it has an ERN of 02199072.

7 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, you just said that you came out of your

8 apartment block -- or your apartment and you went downstairs. On the

9 diagram in front of you, and using the pointer, could you just explain how

10 far down the stairs you went when you heard the instructions to open the

11 doors?

12 A. Yes, I can show it. I came up to here.

13 Q. This is midway between the first and the second floor; is that

14 correct?

15 A. That's exactly right.

16 Q. It's kind of a -- is it a landing area between the first and

17 second floors?

18 A. Yes, it's a landing area.

19 Q. And when you reached this point, what did you see or did you meet

20 anybody when you got to this point?

21 A. Yes. On this landing, the first man I saw was Mr. Miroslav Tadic.

22 Q. Was Mr. Miroslav Tadic in civilian clothing or was he wearing a

23 military uniform?

24 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform.

25 Q. Was he armed?

Page 8913

1 A. Yes. He had -- he was fully armed.

2 Q. Now, you said that you saw Mr. Miroslav Tadic. Did you say

3 anything to him or did he say anything to you on this occasion?

4 A. Yes. I greeted him, and then he addressed me.

5 Q. And what did he tell you?

6 A. He asked me what I was doing there with this bowl and the eggs.

7 Q. And did you explain to him?

8 A. Yes. I told him I was making a cake for Easter.

9 Q. And you said your husband had also come out of your apartment

10 block. Did Mr. Tadic address your husband or your then-boyfriend?

11 A. Yes. He addressed him as well.

12 Q. And what did he tell your boyfriend?

13 A. "You Major's son, you had better take your gun and fight and not

14 hold that dog."

15 Q. Could you explain what you understood Mr. Tadic to mean by first

16 the comment to your husband, "Major's son," and secondly what he meant by,

17 "You better take your gun and fight and not hold that dog"?

18 A. My husband was of military age and it was understood that he

19 should fight.

20 Q. And what did he mean by "Major's son"? Can you explain that to

21 us?

22 A. Certainly. My husband's father, my then-boyfriend, was known by

23 his nickname of "Major" and, therefore, my boyfriend was called "Major's

24 son."

25 Q. Thank you. Did your husband react to this comment at all?

Page 8914

1 A. Yes, he did react to it.

2 Q. And what did he say?

3 A. " Weapons are not for me."

4 Q. Did Mr. Tadic explain to you what was happening or give you any

5 instructions as to what you should do after you'd had this initial

6 interaction?

7 A. No, no explanation, and he entered my apartment.

8 Q. Did he enter your apartment alone or did he enter with other --

9 did other men accompany him?

10 A. He did not enter alone. He was accompanied.

11 Q. By approximately how many other people?

12 A. Three or four, who entered my apartment.

13 Q. And the people who entered, were they also soldiers in military

14 uniform and armed?

15 A. Yes. These were soldiers in camouflage uniforms and fully armed.

16 Q. And after they'd entered your apartment, what did they proceed to

17 do?

18 A. They began searching the entire apartment.

19 Q. Did they tell you what they were looking for?

20 A. Yes, yes. They told me what they were looking for.

21 Q. And what was that?

22 A. They were looking for weapons and a radio transmitter.

23 Q. And did they find anything like that in your apartment?

24 A. No. They found nothing.

25 Q. Did you have any weapons or any radio transmitter in your

Page 8915

1 apartment?

2 A. No, I had neither of the two.

3 Q. After they'd finished searching and found nothing, did the

4 soldiers, including Mr. Tadic, then leave your apartment?

5 A. Yes, very angry and they left the apartment.

6 Q. Was yours the only apartment they searched in that block or did

7 they search the other apartments, too?

8 A. They searched also the other apartments in the building.

9 Q. Did they find any weapons in any of the other apartments in the

10 building?

11 A. No, they did not find anything.

12 Q. What was their reaction when they couldn't find any weapons?

13 A. They were extremely angry.

14 Q. Did Mr. Tadic say anything to you after he couldn't find any

15 weapons in the apartment block?

16 A. Not to me.

17 Q. Did you hear him say something to somebody else?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. And what did you hear him say?

20 A. I heard him turning and speaking to Salko Porobic.

21 Q. And what did you hear him say to Mr. Porobic?

22 A. He was asking Salko Porobic to show him the automatic rifle.

23 Q. Did Mr. Porobic have an automatic rifle?

24 A. No. Salko had no weapons.

25 Q. And after Mr. Tadic had ask -- you overheard Mr. Tadic asking

Page 8916

1 Mr. Porobic for the automatic rifle, what happened then?

2 A. I attempted to calm down Mr. Miroslav Tadic.

3 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, could I ask you to look again at the diagram to

4 your right? And if you could just point out where this particular

5 interaction occurred, where Mr. Tadic was asking about the automatic

6 weapon and he was getting angry and then you said you tried to calm him

7 down?

8 A. Yes. It was in this area.

9 Q. Could I also ask, with the help of the usher, if you could just

10 mark a "B" in that location where this interaction occurred?

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Thank you very much. Now, you said you tried to calm down

13 Mr. Tadic. What did you say to him?

14 A. I said that Salko Porobic was a sick man and that he wasn't fit to

15 carry arms.

16 Q. Did you overhear Mr. Tadic giving instructions to any of the other

17 soldiers who were accompanying him?

18 A. Yes, I did hear that.

19 Q. And what did you hear?

20 A. Well, the -- he will order that our floor be destroyed.

21 Q. Did he tell you that he would order that or did you hear him give

22 instructions to some of the men accompanying him, that they should destroy

23 your floor?

24 A. He was very angry that he would do that.

25 Q. I'm sorry, Mrs. Kapetanovic, I don't quite understand that answer.

Page 8917

1 It says -- the transcript says that you said, "He was very angry that he

2 would do that." It's still not clear to me whether you overheard him give

3 instructions to somebody else, saying that he would order your floor to be

4 destroyed or he told you that he was going to order your floor to be

5 destroyed.

6 A. No, no. He didn't say that to me, but to his men.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just go over this, please? What exactly did

9 you hear him say to his men?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said that the weapons must be

11 found, and if it will not be found, then our floor will be destroyed.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

13 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Did he --

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Actually, just again, just to clear this up. We

16 now know what Mr. Tadic allegedly said. But who did he say it to? Did he

17 say it to his group of soldiers, "If you don't find weapons, destroy the

18 floor"? Or did he make this general comment out loud that the floor will

19 be destroyed, to anyone who was listening?

20 MS. REIDY:

21 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, if you could just clarify that for Her Honour.

22 A. Certainly. I said that Mr. Miroslav Tadic was very angry because

23 he did not find weapons, but he was sure that the weapons were here. And

24 he said, in the presence -- our presence and presence of his men, that he

25 will order that our floor be demolished, and it referred to us.

Page 8918

1 Q. Let's make that clear. He said in your presence that he will

2 order the floor to be demolished? He didn't as such give instructions to

3 his men to demolish the floor if they didn't find the weapons?

4 A. At that moment, he did not order the floor to be demolished.

5 Q. So this is clear, you heard him say to his men -- you heard him

6 say to his men, "If we don't find the weapons, the floor will be

7 destroyed"? That was the general comment more than an order to destroy

8 the floor there and then, so to speak?

9 A. At that moment, it was a comment, a comment, which lasted for

10 quite some time.

11 Q. After this comment, did the soldiers continue to search the

12 apartment block?

13 A. Yes, they continued.

14 Q. And did they search everywhere in the apartment block, including

15 the attic that you can see in the diagram?

16 A. Yes. They were searching.

17 Q. Did the soldiers find anything?

18 A. No. They found nothing.

19 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, as best as you can recall, can you tell us

20 roughly how long this lasted, from the time that the men entered your

21 apartment block, conducted searches of the flats and searched the

22 apartment block?

23 A. Approximately almost two hours.

24 Q. Of the men who were in your apartment block, was it your

25 impression that Miroslav was the one in charge of them?

Page 8919

1 A. Absolutely.

2 Q. And why do you say "absolutely"?

3 A. Because he was the only one who was giving orders.

4 Q. And did the men follow his instructions?

5 A. Certainly.

6 Q. The other men you've described who entered with him, could you

7 tell whether they were locals, whether they were non-locals or whether

8 there was a mixture of both locals and non-locals amongst the soldiers who

9 entered your building?

10 A. It was a mixture of soldiers.

11 Q. And how could you tell that there was some local and non-local?

12 How could you distinguish between them?

13 A. Only by their speech.

14 Q. So some spoke with a typical local accent, and some spoke with

15 what you testified yesterday to, an Ekavian or Serbian accent; is that

16 right?

17 A. Precisely so.

18 Q. Apart from Mr. Miroslav Tadic himself, did you personally know any

19 of the other soldiers who entered your apartment block?

20 A. No. I couldn't recognise them.

21 Q. When the soldiers had finished the searches and found nothing

22 after you said about two hours, did they then leave your apartment block?

23 A. Yes. They left our entrance, our section.

24 Q. They left your section. Did some soldiers remain around the

25 apartment complex number 62 Edvard Kardelj?

Page 8920

1 A. Yes, yes, they remained.

2 Q. Did the armoured vehicle also remain or did the armoured vehicle

3 move on to another location?

4 A. It remained here.

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I wonder whether you could tell us whether you

6 saw Mr. Tadic and these soldiers also go into number 1, number 3, number

7 4, Mr. Zaric's block, and so on, or was it just your entranceway and the

8 block that you were living in that was searched in this way?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the only entrance that such

10 an operation was carried out when Mr. Tadic is in question. I'm speaking

11 of that what I had seen.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

13 MS. REIDY:

14 Q. Just to follow up on that, it's quite clear that you only saw

15 Mr. Tadic come into your apartment block. Could you tell, from what you

16 could see or hear, whether or not soldiers had entered any of the other

17 entrances?

18 A. Yes, the soldiers entered also the other entrances.

19 Q. Could you tell this because you saw some of them going into the

20 entrances or because you could hear orders being given for them to enter

21 some of the other entranceways?

22 A. We could hear the orders.

23 Q. Then is that because you were then inside your block as the

24 searching was going on, you couldn't see anything else outside during that

25 period?

Page 8921

1 A. At that moment, no.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Witness, did you look out of your window? Could

3 you see anything out of the window or not?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I did look through the

5 window. A lot of commotion and quite a few soldiers.

6 MS. REIDY:

7 Q. And was this before Mr. Tadic entered your building or after they

8 had left?

9 A. After they had left.

10 Q. Maybe I could just clarify that. You were looking out your window

11 when you saw the armoured vehicle come down the street and pull up in

12 front of your garage; is that correct?

13 A. Yes. When they were arriving, that is correct.

14 Q. You then --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought that was cleared earlier on when she was

16 describing how she saw them and pointed out to the arrows and all that. I

17 don't see the reason for going over it again.

18 MS. REIDY: Okay, Your Honour. I just thought there may be an

19 ambiguity on the record, but if it's clear to the bench, then that's fine.

20 Q. You said that you looked out again after Mr. Tadic had left, and

21 you said that the armoured vehicle stayed there. Did it stay there for

22 the whole day or did it eventually leave from in front of your apartment

23 block?

24 A. It did leave, but I do not recollect when.

25 Q. Did soldiers remain in and around your apartment complex after the

Page 8922

1 armoured vehicle had left or did they leave with the vehicle?

2 A. Most of the soldiers remained.

3 Q. They remained guarding your building or what were they doing after

4 the vehicle had left?

5 A. They remained there on guard.

6 Q. Were they on guard in front of your building, in front of

7 particular entrances, or were they patrolling the streets and the area in

8 which the building was?

9 A. They were standing in front of the building, as well as along the

10 streets.

11 Q. Could I ask you to look at diagram P68 again, which indicates the

12 apartment complex? And using the pointer, could you indicate where you

13 could see some soldiers still standing after the armoured vehicle had

14 left?

15 A. Yes, I can.

16 Q. Perhaps I could just ask you to take a marker again and just mark

17 those areas where you could see some soldiers.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Thank you. Could you indicate roughly how many soldiers you saw

20 there?

21 A. I don't know the exact number but there were quite a few of them.

22 Q. When you say "quite a few," would that be four or five or more

23 than ten, or could you just give us some rough idea of how many were

24 there?

25 A. The figure would be approximately around ten.

Page 8923

1 Q. Thank you. And you could see this from your windows of your

2 apartment; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. Did you, yourself, leave your apartment for the rest of that day?

5 A. No, no, I did not leave the apartment at all.

6 Q. Had you received any instruction not to leave your apartment?

7 A. Yes. Such instructions were issued.

8 Q. Can you tell us who issued those instructions or how you were told

9 that you shouldn't leave the apartment?

10 A. I did not hear any direct instructions but people in the building

11 informed me about that.

12 Q. Can you recall now who informed you that there was such

13 instructions?

14 A. Yes, I can. Mr. Tubakovic, Mr. Djorde Tubakovic.

15 Q. Thank you. Did he ever tell you who had given him these

16 instructions?

17 A. No, no. He never told me that.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, did some other people --

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: If I could ask the witness a question directly.

20 Yesterday, you told us that Mr. Tubakovic is Serbian. Is that correct?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So he was -- was he also confined to the

23 building?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His apartment was not searched, and

25 he could move around.

Page 8924

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

2 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

3 Q. Did in fact, however, some families who were living in your

4 apartment block, did they leave during that day?

5 A. Yes. In the course of that day, some apartments were abandoned.

6 Q. And was this because you'd received instructions that some women

7 and children would be allowed to evacuate?

8 A. Yes, yes. That was the reason.

9 Q. Could you tell me who left your apartment block that day?

10 A. Well, the following families left: family Porobic, family

11 Culumovic, and two ladies, Avdibegovic and Halilovic.

12 Q. And did the men -- were the men from these families able to leave

13 as well or did the men return?

14 A. They went with them but then they were returned, turned back.

15 Q. The family Avdibegovic, I don't believe you mentioned before.

16 Could you just confirm what ethnicity they are?

17 A. They are Muslim -- of Muslim ethnicity.

18 Q. Thank you. Why did you not try to leave when these families left?

19 A. The only free route was towards Crkvina and into the internal

20 parts, central parts of Bosnia, and I had no one there. I'm from Croatia,

21 and that route was blocked and all I could do was wait.

22 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, did that mean that you were the only non-Serb

23 woman left in your apartment block by the end of the 17th April, by the

24 night of the 17th of April?

25 A. No. Mrs. Culumovic and the other ladies. I apologise, I did not

Page 8925

1 understand your question.

2 Q. That's no problem. I'll repeat it. You've testified that the

3 Porobic, the Culumovic, the Avdibegovic and the Halilovic families tried

4 to evacuate later in the afternoon and that the men had returned. And

5 after this had happened, my question was: Did that mean that you were the

6 only non-Serb female left in your apartment block, block 2, of number 62

7 Edvard Kardelj Street?

8 A. Yes, I was the only one.

9 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I'd just like to set a time frame for a moment.

10 Could you tell me, at some stage after this takeover, were you detained?

11 A. I was detained in my entrance.

12 Q. But were you at some stage taken away and detained at another

13 building or complex?

14 A. Not at that point in time.

15 Q. Okay. Later, a month or so later, were you arrested?

16 A. Yes. Yes, I was arrested.

17 Q. And just to give us the time frame, could you -- do you recall

18 when this first arrest occurred?

19 A. I think it occurred on the 15th of May, 1992.

20 Q. Thank you. So from the 18th of April, when you were the only

21 non-Serb woman in your apartment block, up until the 15th of May, when you

22 said you were arrested, did you remain primarily in your apartment

23 complex?

24 A. Yes. I was exclusively and only in my entranceway.

25 Q. You say exclusively in your entranceway. Did that mean you didn't

Page 8926

1 try to leave the building and you didn't go into town or wander into any

2 other areas of Bosanski Samac?

3 A. No. I didn't even try to do that.

4 Q. Were you ever approached to do forced labour during this period?

5 A. Not in this period.

6 Q. And did your then boyfriend, now husband, remain with you

7 throughout this period, April 18th to approximately May 15?

8 A. Yes. He remained with me.

9 Q. And did he at that stage have to do forced labour?

10 A. He tried to avoid forced labour.

11 Q. And did he manage to avoid it at that time when you were together

12 in the apartment?

13 A. Yes, he did.

14 Q. Do you know why he managed to avoid the forced labour?

15 A. Through his uncle.

16 Q. Could you just explain how his uncle was able to prevent him being

17 taken for forced labour in the beginning?

18 A. His uncle sent non-Serbs, that is to say, he assigned non-Serbs to

19 do work assignments, work obligations.

20 Q. Where was his uncle working?

21 A. Before the war, he worked at the military staff. During the war,

22 his role was to assign forced labourers to their forced labour duties.

23 Q. Thank you. Whilst you were --

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Could you tell us what ethnic background your

25 then boyfriend's uncle was -- is?

Page 8927

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He comes from a typical Muslim

2 family.

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

4 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

5 Q. And can I -- you said during the war that his role was to assign

6 or to hand out -- to assign the forced labour tasks. Do you know where he

7 was working when this was his assignment?

8 A. He was working at the local commune, and his -- he had such

9 responsibilities starting on the 17th of April, but actually I'm not quite

10 sure of the date. It was during the war in any case.

11 Q. Thank you. Did other people in your apartment block have to carry

12 out forced labour assignments during this time?

13 A. Yes. All non-Serbs had to carry out forced labour.

14 Q. And did you witness these people --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

16 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, I do apologise for interfering in

17 this examination. Sorry, my friend. Do we have instruction with regard

18 to the terms used during the examination, such as "forced labour" or --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes, we've had those instructions for a long

20 time.

21 MR. PANTELIC: It's possible because --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I did say that we are using them generally because

23 it seems to be easier, but then the Prosecution know what they have to

24 prove --

25 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, okay. I agree.

Page 8928

1 JUDGE MUMBA: -- on forced labour. We have been through that

2 before.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Because it's, you know, a little bit confusing

4 here. Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.

5 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

6 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, the question I'd asked was -- you testified that

7 other non-Serbs in the building had to do forced labour, and I'm just

8 going to ask you: Did you witness them leaving to do forced labour and

9 coming home? Is that how you know that they had to do forced labour?

10 A. Yes, that's exactly how I knew. I saw it with my own eyes.

11 Q. Thank you. Did you also hear of any other changes in the period

12 April 18 to May 15? And now I'm speaking of the restrictions that were

13 imposed upon the non-Serb population.

14 A. Yes. I heard of that.

15 Q. What sort of restrictions had you heard had been imposed?

16 A. Restriction of movement, no more than two Muslims were allowed

17 together. Also, people had to be marked with armbands. Doors had to be

18 marked, and so on.

19 Q. Now, you said that no more than two Muslims were allowed together.

20 This also applied to persons of Croat nationality or was it just for

21 Muslims?

22 A. It referred to all those who were not Serb.

23 Q. You also said that people had to be marked with armbands. Was

24 this non-Serb persons had to wear arm bands?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8929

1 Q. And you said that doors had to be marked and so on. Was this that

2 doors belonging to, again, non -- the non-Serb population should be marked

3 to identify them? Is that it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you recall now what was used to mark the apartment doors?

6 A. The name "Slobodan Stanisic" was taken off of my apartment door

7 because the apartment was no longer a Serb apartment.

8 Q. Do you mean that the names of all non-Serbs were taken -- from

9 what you could see, they took away names of non-Serbs from their apartment

10 doors?

11 A. Yes, that's exactly right.

12 Q. Can you recall now how you heard that these restrictions had been

13 imposed?

14 A. I didn't hear the order personally but I was told about it in the

15 entranceway.

16 Q. And when you said you were told about it in the entranceway, who

17 told you about it in the entranceway?

18 A. The tenants that had remained.

19 Q. So is this some of the other tenants who were indeed out in public

20 and that they came back and told you of these new restrictions in town?

21 Is that it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, whilst you were --

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Could you just mention the name of

25 which tenants in your block told you this, if you can remember?

Page 8930

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Culumovic and

2 Mr. Tubakovic.

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

4 MS. REIDY:

5 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, whilst you were in your apartment block during

6 this approximate month period, did you ever get any further visits from

7 soldiers or members of the special units?

8 A. Yes. Daily.

9 Q. And could you tell us in which period this happened? Did this

10 happen in the beginning -- in the initial period from the 18th of April,

11 in around the 18th of April, or did it happen later on, shortly before you

12 were arrested?

13 A. It happened from the very beginning, and it happened always at the

14 same time.

15 Q. So it happened from the 18th. Could you tell us exactly what

16 happened? You said it happened always at the same time. What time did

17 these visits occur?

18 A. Certainly. They would come exclusively during lunchtime every

19 day.

20 Q. And who would come? How many -- well, do you know the people who

21 would come to your apartment block?

22 A. I had never seen them before, but I know there was one woman

23 escorted by four members of the special units, and they called themselves

24 extraordinary specialists. They had camouflage uniforms on and they were

25 fully armed.

Page 8931

1 Q. And what would happen when they came to your apartment in around

2 lunchtime every day?

3 A. The woman, or actually this young woman, would put her pistol

4 against my head while others were searching my apartment.

5 Q. Did they tell you what at the were looking for when they searched

6 your apartment?

7 A. Yes, they did tell me that.

8 Q. And what were they looking for?

9 A. They were looking for the radio transmitter and for weapons.

10 Q. And did they ever find any radio transmitters or weapons?

11 A. This -- no, they never found anything in my apartment.

12 Q. Did you have any radio transmitters or weapons in your apartment?

13 A. I'd never had any weapons. I hate weapons. I had a very small

14 radio transmitter but its range was only two rooms, so that if you were in

15 one room you could hear it in the other.

16 Q. Did they ever find that and take it away?

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I wonder whether we could clarify the use of this

18 term "radio transmitter," because I think we have had it used in terms of

19 the soldiers, on all of these occasions they came to the apartment were

20 looking for weapons and a radio transmitter. Now, Mrs. Kapetanovic, you

21 mention that you had a small radio transmitter that was in one room and

22 you could hear it from potentially another room, but you used the word

23 "radio transmitter" again. Are you referring in that context, the second

24 context, to an ordinary radio that you listened to broadcasts on or are

25 you referring to a transmitter where you receive messages and you send

Page 8932

1 messages? So if you could just clarify what you mean in the context of

2 you had a small radio transmitter.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will gladly do so. I was always

4 asked to show radio transmitters or to show them that I had radio

5 transmitters that professionals were using, and what I had, I used to

6 communicate with my husband if we happened to be in the next room. It was

7 more like a toy for us.

8 MS. REIDY:

9 Q. But Mrs. Kapetanovic, could you just again explain a radio

10 transmitter, by that you mean some form of walkie-talkie or Motorola radio

11 where you would talk to each other through these radios? Is that you mean

12 by a radio transmitter?

13 A. What I mean by this is the complete equipment, including the

14 radio, with its frequencies, and a walkie-talkie, that was used for

15 communicating. That is a radio transmitter, this whole equipment.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

17 MS. REIDY:

18 Q. And this small radio transmitter you said that you did have which

19 you used for communicating between rooms, was that ever found and taken

20 away by any of these special units who came to search your house?

21 A. I showed it to them immediately.

22 Q. Did you show it to the soldiers who were with Miroslav Tadic on

23 the first day?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what was their reaction when they saw it?

Page 8933

1 A. They were interested in it. It was a toy.

2 Q. I'm sorry?

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes the witness said, "They

4 were not interested in it. It was a toy."

5 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

6 Q. I think, Mrs. Kapetanovic, that was just a clarification for the

7 record. So on each occasion that -- so on the first occasion, on the

8 17th, when you had been searched by soldiers accompanying

9 Mr. Miroslav Tadic and on the proceeding occasions where you had these

10 daily lunchtime searches by members of the special forces, they knew that

11 you had this small, baby radio transmitter and they were not interested in

12 that? Is that correct?

13 A. They immediately received this toy from me, but they were not

14 interested in it.

15 Q. Thank you. Were you alone in your apartment when these people

16 came to search or were there other people there when they conducted these

17 searches?

18 A. This was happening at lunchtime and I was not alone.

19 Q. Who else was with you when this was going on?

20 A. All the men from my entranceway were there, who had remained. I

21 was the only non-Serb woman who could prepare at least one cooked meal for

22 them. So they all gathered in my apartment.

23 Q. So these special forces would come in when everybody was there and

24 conduct these searches; is that correct?

25 A. That's exactly correct.

Page 8934

1 Q. Did this continue every day until you were arrested or was it only

2 for a short period of time, a week or so?

3 A. It was happening for a longer period of time.

4 Q. Can you tell us how long these searches continued for?

5 A. Maybe around ten days.

6 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to take you to the 15th or so of May,

7 which was the day you testified you were arrested.

8 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a question. I'll go back to the events on

9 the 17th of April and the first search of your apartment, when Mr. Tadic

10 entered your entrance, and you said that you had gone down from your

11 apartment and that then Mr. Tadic addressed you and your boyfriend, and

12 your boyfriend, I'm not -- I don't have the help of the transcript, but if

13 my memory serves me right, he addressed you, and you said that Mr. Tadic

14 said to your boyfriend, "You'd better leave that dog, take your weapon and

15 fight." How did you understand -- did you understand that it was

16 seriously meant and how did you understand that comment or statement by

17 Mr. Tadic?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For me, this was a very serious

19 remark. Weapons are not a joke.

20 JUDGE LINDHOLM: No, but how did you understand it? Against whom

21 would he be fighting? If Mr. Tadic seriously meant what he said.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I just understood what your

23 question was about. He was supposed to fight with them. That's what he

24 meant, because he addressed him, and it would be logical to conclude that

25 my husband should go with Mr. Tadic to fight for his town. That's what it

Page 8935

1 looked like to me.

2 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

3 Q. Now, Mrs. Kapetanovic, I said -- if I can ask you to focus on the

4 events around the 15th or so of May, which you've testified was the day of

5 your arrest. Were you in your own apartment on the 15th of May?

6 A. Yes. I was in my apartment.

7 Q. And did you get a visit that day from any soldiers and members of

8 the special units?

9 A. Yes. On that day, soldiers came to my apartment. I don't know if

10 they might have also been members of the special police. I'm not sure.

11 Q. How many persons came to your apartment?

12 A. Two entered my apartment.

13 Q. And could you tell us roughly what time of the day it was? Was it

14 the morning, afternoon, late afternoon?

15 A. It was sometime around noon.

16 Q. And what did the soldiers want when they entered your apartment?

17 A. They entered it and one of them asked to see my ID.

18 Q. And did you show him your ID?

19 A. Yes, certainly.

20 Q. And what did the soldier do after he'd read your identification

21 card?

22 A. He returned the ID to me and he left.

23 Q. What name was on your identification card at this time? This

24 would be mid-May, 1992.

25 A. It said, and I was very lucky that it said, "Jelena Stanisic,

Page 8936

1 Edvard Kardelj, S62, Bosanski Samac."

2 Q. When you say you were very lucky, why is that?

3 A. Because Jelena can also be a Serb name, and my last name,

4 Stanisic, is a typical Serb last name.

5 Q. So do you think the soldier thought that you were a Serb when he

6 read your name?

7 A. Yes. But he knew very well who I was at the time.

8 Q. Could you explain that? Did you know this soldier who was looking

9 at your identification card?

10 A. Yes. I recognised him later. I was lucky that he also recognised

11 me.

12 Q. And who was he?

13 A. He was my late husband's best man.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: He was my late husband's

15 best man's son.

16 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

17 Q. So do I understand that the soldier who was your late husband's,

18 I'll call him godson, although he knew that you were Croat, he pretended

19 for the sake of the other soldiers who were with him that you were a Serb

20 and he left you alone? Is that it?

21 A. That's exactly right.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Miss Reidy, just for the sake of clarity, there

23 is a difference between a best man - and I think the word in B/C/S is

24 "kum" - we've heard it before, and what you now termed a godson.

25 Somebody's godson, where you attend the baptism and you're the godmother

Page 8937

1 or the godfather, that is a different person. So just for clarity's sake,

2 maybe you could rephrase it. Okay?

3 MS. REIDY: Certainly. Just for the record, I think the

4 interpreter corrected it and said that the person who came was her late

5 husband's best man's son, so not the best man, but Your Honour, I'll use

6 that phrase in the future rather than godson. I had been led to believe

7 it was more or less interchangeable.

8 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, maybe you could help us with that. The soldier,

9 you said was the son of your late husband's best man. Does that mean that

10 he was the son of your husband's friend who was a witness at his wedding

11 or that also your husband had a particular role, kind of a protective

12 role, to play over that soldier, over his Kum's son?

13 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Godfather.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My father-in-law held this child at

15 his baptismal ceremony.

16 MS. REIDY:

17 Q. So your husband was the godfather of this soldier who came to see

18 you; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 MS. REIDY: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour, for the correct

21 word.

22 Q. I'll ask one or two more questions before the break. After this

23 soldier left, did -- was that the end of the events for the day, or did

24 more soldiers come to visit you later that afternoon?

25 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, my understanding is that in fact this

Page 8938

1 young man was a godfather's son, and here in the transcript, I don't see

2 this connection. In fact, it was page 35, line 9, the witness said, "My

3 father-in-law held this child at his baptism ceremony." And, of course,

4 her father-in-law was a godfather to this young soldier. That's the

5 relation. It's not so clear here. Maybe I'm wrong. I allow this.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah. We are taking a lot of time on this. My

7 understanding was that this young soldier was the son of the man who was

8 best man at the late -- at the wedding of the witness with her late

9 husband.

10 Is that correct, Mrs. Kapetanovic?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He was there at the

12 christening. He was the godson.

13 MR. PANTELIC: But her father-in-law was a godfather to this young

14 soldier.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: To the soldier.

16 MR. PANTELIC: So it's not directly related with the -- his or her

17 father. It's a father-in-law.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Father-in-law, yes, okay.

19 MR. PANTELIC: For the clarification, but we know about which

20 relation we are speaking about, as a matter of clarity. I don't know if

21 it helps for our friend from the Prosecution.

22 MS. REIDY: It's, frankly, the soldier who came knew who she was.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think that's sufficient. Can we have our

24 break? It's 10.30. We will resume our proceedings at 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

Page 8939

1 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Miss Reidy, examination-in-chief.

3 MS. REIDY:

4 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I'd like now to focus on the events of the

5 afternoon of the 15th or so of May, 1992, after the first visit to your

6 apartment by some Serb soldiers. Did you receive a second visit later

7 that afternoon?

8 A. Yes, yes, there was this visit.

9 Q. And did soldiers come to your apartment?

10 A. Yes. They entered my apartment.

11 Q. And what did they say to you when they entered your apartment?

12 A. That I am being arrested, that I must go downstairs.

13 Q. Did they tell you why you were being arrested?

14 A. No. They did not tell me why I was being arrested.

15 Q. And did they tell you where they were going to take you?

16 A. At that precise moment, they didn't tell me where they -- where

17 I'll be going.

18 Q. And the people who came to your apartment, were they in military

19 uniform and armed?

20 A. Yes, yes. They were armed.

21 Q. Did they permit to you take any personal belongings with you?

22 A. They said that I can take something with me, but I didn't know at

23 the time what I would be needing.

24 Q. So did you leave the apartment then in just what you had on you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8940

1 Q. When they took you out of your apartment and downstairs, what

2 happened to you then?

3 A. In front of my entrance, a truck was parked without the roof, the

4 tarpaulin was raised, and police were standing by it or, rather, people in

5 uniform.

6 Q. Just to clarify, the people in uniform, did it look to you like

7 they were in police uniform or more of a military, soldier-style uniform?

8 A. These were military uniform.

9 Q. And were you required to get into the truck?

10 A. Yes. They told me to get into the truck.

11 Q. Were there already some people in the truck when you climbed

12 aboard?

13 A. Yes. Some people were already there.

14 Q. Did you know any of the people who were already inside the truck?

15 A. Yes, yes. I knew them.

16 Q. And who were these people in the truck?

17 A. There was this family, I believe that their surname was Kljajic,

18 Anto, his wife, their son Miro, and their daughter.

19 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of this family?

20 A. Yes, I do know.

21 Q. What ethnicity was the family?

22 A. They are Croats, Catholics.

23 Q. After you climbed aboard the truck, where did the truck go to

24 next?

25 A. It went into the first road, on the left, towards -- directed

Page 8941

1 towards a house.

2 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have minor question here. What kind of truck

3 are we talking about? You are using, "getting into the truck," and "get

4 aboard the truck." Was it an open truck or what kind of vehicle was it?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can explain it. That truck

6 -- well, I'll never forget it in my life. It wasn't a very big truck,

7 with a tarpaulin which only at the back end was opened. And within the

8 truck, there was no flooring, only benches on the sides.

9 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

10 MS. REIDY:

11 Q. Do I understand you to say that you got into the back of the

12 truck, which is open, covered by a tarpaulin, and the family Kljajic

13 you've told us about were sitting on the benches, on the side of the

14 truck?

15 A. Yes, precisely.

16 Q. And so were you all under the tarpaulin in the back of the truck?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After you'd left -- you described the vehicle leaving your

19 apartment block and it went towards another house. Whose house did it go

20 towards?

21 A. They stopped in front of the house -- allow me to remember --

22 Ruza Matic. But at this point, I'm not 100 per cent sure, but I believe

23 her name was Ruza Matic.

24 Q. Do you know this woman who was in the house, even if you're not

25 sure of her name now?

Page 8942

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Of what ethnic background is she, if you know?

3 A. I do know. She was -- she is Croat and a Catholic.

4 Q. When they stopped in front of her house, was she required to join

5 you in the back of the truck?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was she alone or did she have any of her children with her -- or

8 any children with her?

9 A. She was with her young boy, her son.

10 Q. Thank you. Were these the last passengers you picked up or did

11 the truck continue to collect other people?

12 A. As far as I can recollect, we were the only ones there on that

13 truck.

14 Q. And where did that truck take the seven or eight of you who were

15 aboard?

16 A. To the area in proximity of the secondary school.

17 Q. And did it stop near the secondary school?

18 A. Yes. It stopped at a police checkpoint.

19 Q. And did anything happen at this police checkpoint? Was anybody

20 taken off the truck?

21 A. Yes, yes. It did happen. They were removed from the truck.

22 Q. And who exactly were removed from the truck, if you can remember?

23 A. Mr. Kljajic and his son.

24 Q. Do you have any information as to where they were taken?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8943

1 Q. And what information did you have about their destination?

2 A. That they are being taken to the secondary school.

3 Q. And did you learn that they ended up in the secondary school

4 later?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you recall now how you learnt they'd been taken to the

7 secondary school?

8 A. I -- from the wife of Mr. Kljajic.

9 Q. Thank you. After this checkpoint and when the two men were

10 removed, where did the truck continue on to?

11 A. The truck continued in a direction which was unknown to me, and we

12 couldn't see anything.

13 Q. Was that because you were under the tarpaulin you couldn't see

14 exactly which -- along which route you were being taken? Is that what

15 you're saying?

16 A. Yes, precisely that.

17 Q. And where did the truck finally stop? Where was your final

18 destination in the truck?

19 A. The truck stopped at the checkpoint in Crkvina.

20 Q. Thank you. Crkvina is a village or an area outside of Bosanski

21 Samac town; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, there is in evidence a number of maps

24 with Crkvina marked on it so I don't intend to go through it with this

25 witness.

Page 8944

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

2 MS. REIDY:

3 Q. When you stopped at this checkpoint at Crkvina what happened?

4 Were you required to get off the truck?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And where were you taken after you dismounted from the truck?

7 A. To the stadium in Crkvina.

8 Q. When you say a stadium, do you mean a sports stadium?

9 A. Yes. It was a football ground.

10 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, perhaps at this point I could introduce

11 the third diagram which the witness gave instructions to draw up.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MS. REIDY: It is a diagram with the ERN number 02199071, and it's

14 my understanding that the Bench were distributed their copies yesterday.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have it.

16 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

17 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, do you recognise the diagram which is on the

18 screen before you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it a rough diagram of the sports stadium to which you said you

21 were taken to in Crkvina?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it was drawn up following your instructions of the layout of

24 the place; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8945

1 Q. Perhaps, can I ask you to take the pointer and just point to the

2 shaded block on the right-hand corner with the "P" marked on it? Is that

3 where the checkpoint was, which you first said you stopped at?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That was the first checkpoint in Crkvina?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you then tell me where exactly, from the truck, you were

8 taken to it and where you had to dismount from the trucks?

9 A. In this direction.

10 Q. Thank you. And that you -- is that the entrance to the sports

11 field?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the big darkened area there on your left, that is an open air

14 sports pitch; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you dismounted from the trucks, what could you see in the

17 sports field? Was it empty or were there already a lot of people there?

18 A. Yes, many, many people.

19 Q. Do you have a rough idea of how many people might have been there?

20 A. A few hundred.

21 Q. Thank you. Could you recognise any of these people or did you get

22 to know who these people were or what ethnicity the people were, more

23 precisely?

24 A. Yes, yes. I managed.

25 Q. Could you tell us what ethnicity the people gathered in that

Page 8946

1 sports stadium were?

2 A. A few Muslim women, and the rest, Croats of Catholic faith.

3 Q. And these Muslim women, were they, to the best of your knowledge,

4 mainly Muslim women married to Catholic -- married to Croat men?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And were there just women there or were there women, children and

7 men gathered in this stadium?

8 A. Children, women, men, old people of all ages, of all ages.

9 Q. Thank you. Perhaps I could just get this document now marked for

10 the record.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number?

12 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P70 ID, Your Honours. Thank you.

13 MS. REIDY:

14 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, did you -- a few hundred of you who were

15 gathered there, did you spend the rest of that day outside in the air, in

16 the field of that sports stadium?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And did you find anybody that you recognised amongst the hundreds

19 gathered there?

20 A. Yes, yes, I did recognise.

21 Q. Did you find any of your relatives there?

22 A. Yes. My aunt, Mariska.

23 Q. Thank you. During the time that you were -- you and all the

24 others were kept in this field, did anybody, any soldiers, ever approach

25 the people gathered there and take personal belongings from them?

Page 8947

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who was taking things away from the detainees?

3 A. Soldiers.

4 Q. And what sort of things were they taking from the detainees?

5 A. Everything they had with them.

6 Q. Documents, or was it primarily jewellery and perhaps what you

7 could call items of value?

8 A. All items of value: Gold, money, watches, exclusively items of

9 value.

10 Q. Did this happen to everybody who was gathered or was it mainly

11 people gathered around the entrance to the stadium?

12 A. Those who were the closest.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. When you say, Mrs. Kapetanovic, that

14 what was taken was exclusively items of value, in the list you gave of

15 gold, money, watches, you didn't say one way or the other about ID,

16 identification documents, which Ms. Reidy had also asked you. Could you

17 answer directly on that point? Was your documentation also taken away or

18 not?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The documents were taken from us at

20 the first checkpoint at Samac, near the school, so that those who arrived

21 there didn't have documents on them.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

23 MS. REIDY:

24 Q. Did you have your identification documents with you when you left

25 the house?

Page 8948

1 A. No, no. I had nothing on me.

2 Q. So I take it, then, they couldn't have removed your identification

3 document basically from the fact that you didn't have one; is that

4 correct?

5 A. No, I didn't, not this time.

6 Q. Thank you. Did you spend the evening in the field or did you get

7 to enter or did you go inside to spend the night?

8 A. Before the night, the door was opened and we were allowed to enter

9 into this building called the centre.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MS. REIDY: Perhaps the witness could again be shown P70 ID and

12 she could explain what happened.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

14 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, page 46, line 3, I think it's a

15 kind of mistake in transcript. Now it's P70, because there is a P730 ID,

16 but it's corrected now.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: It's P70 ID.

18 MR. PANTELIC: It's 730 number of the exhibit, which is actually

19 P70. Now it's okay. Thank you.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy?

21 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

22 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, could you explain where you were taken on the

23 evening of the day that you were detained in this sports stadium? Explain

24 where they brought you in to spend the night.

25 A. Yes, I can. We entered through this door and the majority went in

Page 8949

1 that direction, and they settled in this area which I am now showing.

2 Women and small children went on the podium, and due to the big crowd, I

3 -- the crowdedness, I went into a smaller area, something like a locker

4 room or something similar, and I settled there.

5 Q. There is an "X" on that diagram. Is that where you took up

6 your position to spend the night?

7 A. Yes. It's a very small space between the door and the wall. And

8 when the door is opened, then I remained in the corner.

9 Q. Thank you. And did you go there by yourself or were you there

10 with your aunt who you had located in the football pitch earlier, the

11 sports pitch earlier?

12 A. I -- yes. More than one of us, a few of us, entered there, and it

13 included my aunt.

14 Q. Were you provided with anything to sleep on, a mattress or

15 blankets or anything?

16 A. No. I found a piece of cardboard.

17 Q. Thank you. Had you --

18 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a question. If we look at this picture,

19 are these darkened squares, are they open places or are they buildings?

20 These two, "bina" stage and the other one?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain it to you. This

22 square represents a wooden podium where the actors would have their

23 performances, and all of this represented an auditorium, an entirety, and

24 this area, from that side is closed and represents -- and this place

25 represents another part of the building which is within the building

Page 8950

1 itself.

2 JUDGE LINDHOLM: A further question: So this square in totality,

3 this with dark parts and light parts, that's a building, a covered

4 building with roof?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.

6 JUDGE LINDHOLM: So the crowd gathered in the sport field was

7 transferred into the entirety of this building in different parts?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only in the area which I will mark

9 for you.

10 JUDGE LINDHOLM: And it's a question of several hundred peoples

11 gathered within this space?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.

13 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, can we have some marking by the witness

15 to show the areas of the building where people -- the parts which were

16 occupied by the people from the stadium? Because it appears there is one

17 part where people were not moved to.

18 MS. REIDY: Absolutely.

19 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, perhaps you could take that red marker that's --

20 I believe it's with you on the ELMO, and could you again just outline,

21 with the red marker, the part of the building where you could all try to

22 find somewhere to rest that evening?

23 A. Certainly. The places marked with "X" and this red line are

24 the location where several hundred prisoners moved around and lived.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I have a question as to the amount of people.

Page 8951

1 Just to get this clear, Mrs. Kapetanovic, initially you responded to

2 Ms. Reidy on page 43, line 13, when she asked you to give us a rough idea

3 of how many people there might have been, your response was, "a few

4 hundred," but now, in response to Judge Lindholm's question, where he said

5 to you, "It's a question of several hundred people," and you said,

6 "Precisely so." Now, at least in the English language, there is a

7 difference between "few" and "several." I wonder if you could clarify it

8 by saying there were approximately, you know, 200, 300, whatever it was,

9 so that we have a sort of visualisation of it, if you can.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly. At any rate, there was

11 more than 300 people at the moment when we entered this enclosed area. At

12 the moment when we entered it, that's how many people were there.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

14 MS. REIDY:

15 Q. And perhaps just to clarify, you said that's how many there were

16 when you entered. Did other people join you in the stadium after you had

17 entered it? So did the number of people in the stadium increase by the

18 time you'd entered the centre at night?

19 A. All the time, more people were arriving.

20 Q. So again, just in the manner that Her Honour Judge Williams asked,

21 by the time you went into the sports and cultural centre, roughly how many

22 of you could you guess were trying to fit into that space?

23 A. They were crammed in like sardines, and up to 500 people could be

24 crammed in there.

25 Q. Thank you. Is that why you tried to find a little place behind

Page 8952

1 the door, because it was the only place you could find some room?

2 A. The crowd was huge, and the normal way led to the big hall. I

3 went right into the first room on the right, together with my aunt and

4 some other persons.

5 Q. And was that to avoid everybody squashing into the --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, I think we have had enough of an

7 explanation of how the people were crammed into the building.

8 MS. REIDY: Okay.

9 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, during that day, had you received any food?

10 A. Yes. We received a slice of bread and a little piece of bacon.

11 Q. And had you had access to water during the day?

12 A. Nobody was worried about water on that day.

13 Q. But was any water distributed to you, if you'd wanted to have

14 something to drink?

15 A. There was no water on the stadium.

16 Q. Thank you. Did you have access to a toilet?

17 A. Yes. We found one toilet.

18 Q. Would you just again take the pointer and indicate on the map

19 where that single toilet was?

20 A. Certainly.

21 Q. That's a place in the diagram where a "T" is marked, is that it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And is that -- that's a toilet for one person, is it?

24 A. Yes. It was an outside toilet for just one person.

25 Q. And that was the only toilet available to you at that time?

Page 8953

1 A. It was not enough. We also used the areas that I will indicate

2 right now.

3 Q. Perhaps you could just take again the pen and mark a "T" number

4 "2" or something, just where you've marked?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think "T2" will do.

6 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

7 JUDGE MUMBA: But we need an explanation on T2. Was it an open

8 area? Was it a small building? Because the other "T" was actually a

9 toilet.

10 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll pursue that right now.

11 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I think you can understand that we need some

12 clarification. First, just could you tell me, this place you've marked,

13 was it an actual toilet or was it a makeshift area that you designated for

14 use as a toilet?

15 A. What I have to explain at this moment is not very nice, but I will

16 try to be very mild. This was an area, it was not closed, this was an

17 area where garbage was left, and there was a lot of human feces. There

18 were many things there that were not very nice, and we had to go and squat

19 there, more people at a time. I apologise to Your Honours, but that's

20 simply what the truth is. I would also like to add that a guard was also

21 present there.

22 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me --

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I wonder whether you could just give one further

24 explanation. Where you've indicated the T2, was that area being used when

25 you were contained in the soccer field? And were you, therefore, let out

Page 8954

1 of the soccer field with a guard to go to the T2 place? And then I have

2 another question, which is: When you were in the building, the sports

3 centre, for the night, were there other toilet facilities inside the

4 building for use during the night-time?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will answer as follows. In the

6 building itself or in the area that we were allowed to use, there were no

7 toilet facilities. During the day, we had the right to access both toilet

8 1 and toilet 2. During the night, it didn't even occur to the craziest

9 person that they should go to any of the toilet facilities. People

10 relieved themselves where they were lying. I do apologise, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: There is no need to apologise, Mrs. Kapetanovic.

13 This evidence is important for this case because the Trial Chamber would

14 like to know how such a large crowd of people were looked after wherever

15 they were detained. So it is important that you give these details.

16 MS. REIDY:

17 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, just one more question on this subject. This

18 area designated for use as a toilet, what you've marked now on the map as

19 T2, was that available from the very first day when you were brought into

20 the stadium or was this an area designated in the days that followed your

21 initial detention or was it set up -- was it already there when you were

22 brought in?

23 A. On the first day, I didn't use any toilet facilities. I think

24 that nobody else used them either, out of fear. We were just sitting

25 wherever we found ourselves.

Page 8955

1 Q. And so do I understand that the second area you designated for use

2 of toilet after it became clear that the regular outdoor toilet was not

3 going to be sufficient to cope with the numbers of people who were being

4 detained? Is that what happened?

5 A. That's exactly right.

6 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a question. Just a question of -- about

7 hygiene. When using toilet 1, which was a real toilet, were you supplied

8 with toilet paper or anything like that? And Question No. 2: When using

9 what you call toilet 2, although it was no toilet, were you supplied with

10 any kind of tissues or toilet paper or anything like that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What -- I would like you to imagine

12 what I'm going to tell you. This, I'm referring to the toilet number 1

13 now. This was a very small room made of brick and there was a hole in the

14 ground. It was a type of latrine. And two planks that used to be a door

15 could not obscure the entire view of the toilet, so if somebody entered

16 the toilet, these people sitting on this entire area here could see the

17 person in the toilet. When you were standing, when you were trying to

18 stand between this hole, there was really no where you could stand, and

19 you can imagine what our feet looked like. Your Honour, there was no such

20 thing as toilet paper there. There was not even enough drinking water,

21 let alone toilet paper, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

23 MS. REIDY:

24 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I'd like now to continue with what happened

25 after all the detainees were moved inside to the centre. You've already

Page 8956

1 explained where you spent the night. Did anything happen during that

2 first night or was it uneventful?

3 A. When we all entered the room, all the doors behind us were closed.

4 The centre had no electricity so we found ourselves in pitch darkness.

5 During the night, I can't exactly remember when exactly it was at this

6 moment, but you could hear women crying; you could hear noise and

7 shoutings. It was very, very unpleasant to hear all these things. A lot

8 of stuff happened during this night.

9 Q. Was there something in particular that caused these women to cry

10 or that caused this particular shouting?

11 A. Certainly. What was going on in the big room, which I'm going to

12 indicate to you right now, was not unknown to us, but I do know with

13 certainty what was going on in my room. Armed people came and they had a

14 flashlight, and they were asking for men. The only man who was in the

15 small room was the son, I think he was ten years old, the son of Mrs. Ruza

16 Matic. They wanted to take him away from his mother and she started to

17 cry, and she said that he was still just a boy, a child. After a lot of

18 discussion, they left the child and left. That's what I saw that night.

19 Q. Thank you. Were there any other men in the room that you had

20 chosen to sleep in?

21 A. In the room that I slept in, there were no other men, but in the

22 larger room, yes, there were other men there.

23 Q. And do you know what happened to the men in the larger room that

24 night?

25 A. I found out the next morning.

Page 8957

1 Q. And what did you learn?

2 A. In this large room, only women, children and some very old people

3 remained. All the men had been taken away into an unknown direction.

4 Furthermore, the men that were being taken out of the rooms were beaten.

5 That's what their wives said.

6 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me -- their wives told you that they

7 had been beaten. Do you know if they were beaten in front of their wives

8 and children as they were taken away or could they hear shouts or sounds

9 of people being beaten once the men had been removed from the area of

10 detention?

11 A. They were beaten right by the entrance. They were lined up and

12 beaten there.

13 Q. Perhaps you could again just assist us by showing us on the

14 diagram where you were told the men were lined up and beaten.

15 A. Certainly. This is the entrance through which they would be taken

16 out. This is where they were lined up and then driven away.

17 Q. Perhaps just for the record, you could take a -- another marker,

18 another colour marker, perhaps the green one or the blue one - that's fine

19 - and just mark it with a "Y" perhaps where they were -- an arrow, to

20 indicate where they were lined up.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Thank you. Now, as you were in the other room, you testified that

23 you couldn't see what was going on but you could hear all this noise and

24 commotion that night, could you?

25 A. Certainly. You could hear it from a great distance. It was that

Page 8958

1 loud.

2 Q. So in the morning, when you woke up, I take it there were just

3 women and children and some elderly persons left?

4 A. That's exactly right.

5 Q. Did you spend that second day inside the centre or were you again

6 taken out into the field?

7 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me, I have a question here. Ms. Reidy,

8 you spoke about "woke up in the morning."

9 Did you sleep at all during that night?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that night, nobody

11 slept.

12 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. When morning arrived, then, is probably a better way of phrasing

14 my question, what happened? Did you -- were you taken out again or did

15 you leave the room that you'd been sleeping in and go into the larger

16 room, or how did you find out what had happened in the other room?

17 A. When it dawned, we could see, first of all, where we were, and

18 second of all, I had the opportunity to enter the larger room. There I

19 heard from the women who had spent the night there what had happened

20 there. We were allowed to move around this room.

21 Q. And did you stay inside during the day or were you again taken out

22 to the field?

23 A. In the hours before noon, the guards came and opened the door.

24 I'm going to indicate which door. This door here. And they let us go to

25 the football field again.

Page 8959

1 Q. Perhaps again, just so we have clarity of the record, if there is

2 a smaller pen there, you could put a number 1 beside that entrance which

3 is the entrance you used to go in and out of the sports pitch.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Thank you. During the second day, were you kept -- did you spend

6 the whole day of the second day in the sports field?

7 A. Yes. We spent the whole day in this field.

8 Q. Did you receive food?

9 A. Again, during the afternoon, they brought us a slice of bread and

10 a little piece of bacon.

11 Q. Did they provide you with drinking water?

12 A. They allowed us -- actually, they allowed some women to go fetch

13 water but they were -- they had guards going with them.

14 Q. Again on the diagram, could you just point out to us where the

15 women went to collect the water from?

16 A. Here.

17 Q. That's the circle with the "W" in it, is it?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. And it's a well from which they collect water; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, something like that.

21 Q. So they would go with armed guard, collect some water and bring it

22 back to the people in the stadium; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. With the men removed --

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Ms. Reidy. Still on this same

Page 8960

1 question or issue of food and drink, you had mentioned that there were

2 babies and young children, including the 7 year old boy. Were the

3 children given anything extra or was their ration the same as for the

4 adult persons?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was nothing extra for them,

6 only bread and bacon was unloaded, and that was all.

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

8 MS. REIDY:

9 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I'm just going to ask if you could give us some

10 idea of numbers, how many people were now left, since the men had been

11 taken away the night before.

12 A. I think there were a little bit under 300 persons there. That's

13 what I found out later.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. REIDY: If Your Honours please, I'll come to how she found out

16 the numbers later when we arrive at that chronologically.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MS. REIDY:

19 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I take it on this day, did you begin to use the

20 makeshift toilet, the place you --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Is the usher still required, Ms. Reidy?

22 MS. REIDY: No, Your Honour. I think that for the moment, the

23 usher can sit down. I'm sorry.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MS. REIDY:

Page 8961

1 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, you did testify that in the first day people

2 were scared and didn't want to go to the -- go to any of the toilet

3 facilities, but on the second day, is this when you began also to use this

4 designated area of a makeshift toilet, the place you marked as T2?

5 A. Yes. We simply had to go somewhere.

6 Q. And I think you said you were always accompanied by a guard when

7 you went; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were the people guarding you armed guards, or the people armed

10 guarding you in the stadium throughout the day?

11 A. Yes. I will show their direction of their movement.

12 MS. REIDY: Would Your Honours like that marked for the record?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: No, I mean, simply describing that they were moving

14 all around the area of the pitch and the building.

15 MS. REIDY: I think the record can reflect that there were

16 soldiers all around the circumference of the area.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MS. REIDY:

19 Q. The second night, did you also spend that inside, in the centre?

20 A. Yes. In the evening, again, the doors were opened, and now

21 everybody took his own -- occupied his own place.

22 Q. By this time, had anyone told you, given you an explanation as to

23 you were being detained?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Was the second night in the sports centre, was it a relatively

Page 8962

1 peaceful night?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then on the third day, I understand that something happened.

4 Could you tell us, on the third day, did you decide to react to the

5 conditions in which you were being detained?

6 A. Yes. On the third day, I decided to do something, not only for

7 myself but for everybody.

8 Q. So could you explain the third day, was this in the morning of the

9 third day or later on, on the third day? When did you decide that perhaps

10 the time had come to do something?

11 A. It was in the morning hours, before leaving the area, before going

12 to the football pitch.

13 Q. And I'm going to get to what action you took, but what made you

14 decide that you were going to do something?

15 A. Please, do understand how we -- what the stench was coming from us

16 after only three days. People were becoming -- getting sick. It was --

17 the situation with the children was critical, and we were asking ourselves

18 why were we here and how long shall we be there, and what our fate will

19 be? And everybody had practically the same questions.

20 Q. Just to confirm, by the third day, already some of the children

21 amongst you were sick?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So what did you decide to do on the morning of the third day that

24 you'd been detained?

25 A. I availed myself of the fact that the guards were in the big room.

Page 8963

1 I stood -- placed on a big desk, a smaller one and a chair. Then I banged

2 with my foot, and I asked everybody for a bit of attention.

3 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, could you -- a lot of information -- perhaps

4 first on the diagram, you could just show us where you had these tables

5 placed upon which you stood?

6 A. Certainly.

7 Q. Thank you. If you have the pen accessible to you, could you just

8 put a 2 on that location?

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Thank you. So you had put up this makeshift platform for

11 yourself. Did any of the guards try to stop you when you assembled this?

12 A. It was a total shock. They were just looking, staring at me.

13 Q. So what happened after you asked for silence?

14 A. I said that I'm addressing all detainees and that I beg them to

15 follow my instructions, instructions which consisted of the following:

16 Firstly, that every person should attempt to clean the area where he was

17 -- the person was living. Secondly, that no one should speak to the

18 guards or those who enter at night. I also asked them for total

19 discipline. And I asked the guards to bring us someone with whom we could

20 talk, negotiate. I asked for the Red Cross, the local Red Cross, the

21 International Red Cross. I asked for the then-representatives of the

22 UNPROFOR. I asked for somebody who -- the person who was standing behind

23 the order and who signed the order for our arrest.

24 Q. When you said you asked the guards to bring someone you could talk

25 with and for various representatives, what was the reaction of the guards?

Page 8964

1 A. They were shocked and went out.

2 Q. Did all of them leave or did just one or two of the guards leave

3 the room?

4 A. Guards remained at certain points within this big hall.

5 Q. Did the guards bring you someone to talk with, that you had

6 requested -- as you'd requested?

7 A. After some time elapsed, and they brought in people into this big

8 hall where -- which I did not leave, and these were the following: the

9 representative of the Red Cross, for whom I believe was from Crkvina, and

10 also Mr. Ranko Popovic, who addressed me.

11 Q. To clarify, this person from the Red Cross you believe was from

12 Crkvina, I take it to mean it was from a local Red Cross branch, not the

13 International Red Cross from Geneva?

14 A. Absolutely so, the representative of the local Red Cross.

15 Q. Thank you. Now you said that Mr. Ranko Popovic addressed you. Is

16 Mr. Ranko Popovic a civilian or was he a soldier, or who was he?

17 A. He was in uniform, and the other gentleman was in civilian

18 clothing.

19 Q. Was Mr. Popovic armed?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Now what exactly did Mr. Popovic say to you when he

22 was brought into this big room?

23 A. He said to me that he cannot bring in anyone of those

24 representatives that I requested. He also told me that we were there due

25 to war circumstances, and that he didn't know how long we would be staying

Page 8965

1 there. It all depended on the war in the field.

2 Q. Did you -- were you given any idea what position Mr. Popovic held

3 so that he was the one who was able to give you this information?

4 A. Personally, he did not represent his function but he was a

5 superior, that is how others who turned to him. Obviously, he had a

6 function in these closed premises which I term as a camp.

7 Q. Thank you. After Mr. Popovic had told you that you'd been

8 detained because of the war circumstances and he didn't know how long

9 you'd be detained, did you ask him to provide you with any other

10 facilities?

11 A. Certainly. I told him that we have problems with the small

12 children, that we have also some very sick old people, who were bedridden.

13 I asked for any type of food so that we'd be able to feed all who were

14 present there. I also begged that we be allowed to have the toilet

15 cleaned - and I'm referring to T1 - and that we be allowed any type of

16 cooking whatsoever.

17 Q. And what was the response to these requests?

18 A. He answered that he would see what he could do, and then he left.

19 Q. You mentioned that you told him that you had some sick old people

20 and children?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, do not repeat. Just go ahead and ask the

22 next question for whatever happened next.

23 MS. REIDY:

24 Q. Okay. Did any medical people come to the centre to see these sick

25 people and sick children?

Page 8966

1 A. No, never.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, what did the person from the Red Cross

3 do? You mentioned he came in but you didn't mention what he actually did.

4 Did he speak to people? Did he -- well, in any event, maybe you can tell

5 us.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly. He was a civilian who

7 listened to this dialogue between me and Mr. Popovic, and together with

8 Mr. Popovic, he exited, he left. They said that they would see.

9 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a further question, a follow-up question.

10 Did the representative of the local Red Cross inspect the premises and the

11 conditions there?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He was standing at the door

13 where we were having this discussion. I can show you the location on this

14 diagram. He was standing inside, close to the door, without any movement

15 along this hall or around it.

16 JUDGE LINDHOLM: So he didn't inspect the toilet 1 and the

17 so-called toilet 2, or any other places in the camp?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never. No one ever inspected

19 anything.

20 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

21 MS. REIDY:

22 Q. Did you receive any further food after Mr. Popovic and the

23 representative of the Red Cross had left?

24 A. Later, the representatives of the Red Cross did bring in, on a

25 temporary basis, a big pot in which we could cook.

Page 8967

1 Q. This was just a simple pot, was it? Not a stove or something?

2 Just a plain, ordinary pot; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. And the first moment, at the improvised toilet number 2, we

4 found some old bricks which we placed one on top of another. On that, we

5 placed the pot, poured some water. And we were lucky to find a chicken

6 which was brought in by a detainee who was arrested while he was going to

7 the market. So we slaughtered this hen and we placed it in the pot to

8 cook it. As we were there already three days, I went to check the area

9 around the goal gate, and I found two eggs, and it was this, my first

10 strange lunch that I had as a detainee. What we received, we distributed

11 for the -- gave it to the children, but regrettably, they all acquired

12 diarrhoea from this.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just one thing: So the Red Cross -- if I

14 understand correctly, the Red Cross provided a cooking pot but they didn't

15 provide any food to be cooked. You had to -- you were just lucky that the

16 man had the chicken and you found the eggs. So for almost 300 people,

17 there was a pot but no food, is that -- food to cook? Is that correct?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Unfortunately, it was

19 precisely so. The small amount of food went for the children. After they

20 saw that I persisted and that I would demanding more for these poor

21 people, they allowed to bring in a stove with a very big pot, and on that

22 day, they brought in also some food in order to cook for those who would

23 be then lucky enough to have something to eat. I don't know how I could

24 conjure it up for you, this culinary specialty and my culinary abilities.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And just one last thing concerning that answer.

Page 8968

1 You mentioned "they" allowed a stove to be brought in, and also "they"

2 brought in some food. Who is the "they"? Is the "they" the guards and

3 Mr. Popovic? And also, who brought the food in? Was that the Red Cross

4 or was it somebody else?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About all this which was brought in

6 was brought in by the guards on this -- and Ranko Popovic and the man from

7 the Red Cross saw to it that it was brought in. I had to sign, when the

8 pots were being handed to us, I had to sign a receipt for this inventory.

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

10 MS. REIDY:

11 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, could you just turn to the diagram again, P70?

12 It's still on the right on the ELMO. And could you just point out to us

13 where you set up this temporary cooking area?

14 A. Certainly.

15 Q. That circle marked with a "K" is where you had set up this

16 makeshift kitchen?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. You've explained -- did you also request that some of

19 the women who were detained be allowed back to their villages to take

20 whatever food they had and bring it back to the sports centre?

21 A. Yes. In view of the shortage of foodstuff, I thought that this

22 was the only logical solution.

23 Q. And was that permitted?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did armed guards take the women to their villages and bring them

Page 8969

1 back?

2 A. Yes. In a truck, they took the women from Hasici, from Tisina and

3 from Zasavica. They took them to their villages and, under guard, they

4 were then returned.

5 Q. Was the food you had available to you then, the chicken and eggs,

6 this food which the women had brought back, was this the only food

7 available to you or had the Red Cross brought extra food?

8 A. The most important item was the milk for the children. Women

9 succeeded in milking the cows and to bring it back.

10 Q. So the women who had been taken to the villages were able to bring

11 back some milk for the children; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did the Red Cross deliver foodstuffs to you beyond the pots you've

14 already described or was your food source, just your food source,

15 dependent on what you found in the fields and what these women were able

16 to bring back from the villages?

17 A. They would give us only bread.

18 Q. Did you also receive anything to -- for sleeping on, blankets,

19 mattresses?

20 A. The women succeeded in bringing back some blankets.

21 Q. Thank you. Were there enough blankets for all 300 or so of you

22 gathered there?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How many days did these sort of conditions exist for, when you

25 were able to do some cooking on the makeshift kitchen?

Page 8970

1 A. I believe -- well, the days were like eternity. We counted the

2 nights. It must have been about a week.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, during this week, did you spend every evening

4 inside in the centre?

5 A. Yes, always.

6 Q. At any stage, during those nights, were you taken to meet

7 somebody?

8 A. They would go into the big hall to meet us.

9 Q. I'm sorry, you said "they." Who is "they" would go into the big

10 hall?

11 A. Personally, I did not see them, but these were uniformed persons

12 who, at night, would enter forcibly through this door.

13 Q. That's the door near the number 2?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you said you didn't see this personally but what did you learn

16 that these people came in to do?

17 A. Because of the women who were detained in that area.

18 Q. What does that mean?

19 A. It means that they would take them out as the need be.

20 Q. And you heard this from other detainees?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did they ever give any detail as to what happened or did you just

23 hear that women were being removed at night from that room, from that big

24 area?

25 A. I was told that, at night, women would be removed.

Page 8971

1 Q. And were you told what would happen to them after they'd been

2 removed or people would just leave it at that?

3 A. For each and every one of them was ashamed to say what.

4 Q. Were you -- at one stage during your detention, were you taken

5 from the place where you used to sleep at night and brought to meet some

6 Serb soldiers?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 Q. Roughly how many nights after the third day did this happen, if

9 you can recall now?

10 A. I believe that it was my sixth day of detention.

11 MS. REIDY: I see it's just approaching 12.30. I don't know if

12 you want me to pause here.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will take a break for 20 minutes and come

14 back at 12.50.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution can proceed. Ms. Reidy, we will

18 have to stop the witness some 15 minutes before time. We have some issue

19 which we must discuss in closed session.

20 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour. So that's until 1.30; is that

21 correct?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

23 MS. REIDY: Okay.

24 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I want you now to explain to the Chamber the

25 incident one evening where you were taken to meet some Serb soldiers. Did

Page 8972

1 someone come to take you from your place where you had -- where you were

2 sleeping?

3 A. Yes. One of the guards came, who took me out of the room in which

4 I had been up to that point.

5 Q. And where did he take you?

6 A. I would like to show it.

7 MS. REIDY: I see the map has been removed. If the witness could

8 be shown P70.

9 A. As I said, that night, at some point, a guard with the last name

10 of Popovic, in full military gear, came, and there were other guards with

11 him, even though he was the one that took me away. When he came, he told

12 me to get up and to follow him. I asked, "Where to?" En route to where

13 he was taking me, he said to me that he was taking me to where my role for

14 many can be a matter of life or death. At that time, I didn't know what

15 he meant.

16 While he was taking me, all I could hear was prayers of women, and

17 I will show you what direction we were heading. From the location where I

18 lay, he took me out through this door, took me through this narrow

19 hallway. We entered the big hall. We went downstairs. You could hear

20 this prayer along this whole route. He took me out through this door. We

21 went out. Nothing could be seen. You could just hear rattling of the

22 guards' weapons, and I noticed their shadows in this area here. He took

23 me along this route to this door here, and then he let me enter this

24 building that is marked here with the dark shading. He took me up the

25 stairs to a hall. From this hall, he took me to a big room for

Page 8973

1 conferences or sessions.

2 Your Honours, this was the first time in my life that I had been

3 in these offices, and that was also the last time that I was there.

4 MS. REIDY:

5 Q. Thank you. Could I just ask you to mark with a number 3 the

6 entrance and place to which you were brought, where you entered and where

7 you were taken upstairs, just so we have it permanently on the record?

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Thank you. One other matter. When you said you were taken from

10 your room, you were led through the narrow hallway and downstairs. By

11 "downstairs," do you simply mean you came down from the podium or the

12 steps, you didn't actually go downstairs to a basement; is that right?

13 A. That's exactly right. We just went downstairs from this podium.

14 Q. Who was upstairs in this hallway or conference room that you were

15 taken to?

16 A. Upstairs, Ranko Popovic waited for me, and another man in uniform.

17 I know he was tall and blond but I cannot remember his name. And there, I

18 had the opportunity to see for the first time something like that. This

19 was the first time in my life that I saw a man wearing a fur hat who

20 introduced himself as a Vojvoda, a duke.

21 Q. This man who introduced himself as a duke, did he explain where he

22 was from or what he was doing at the sports centre?

23 A. Yes. He told me his name was Vojvoda - that's how everybody

24 addressed him - and that he was from Kragujevac. I noticed from his

25 accent that he was from central Serbia. Because of the fur hat and the

Page 8974

1 kokarde on the fur hat, I noticed that he was different from the other

2 guards with whom I had the opportunity, or the misfortune, to meet up

3 until that point. He had a huge knife, which was located by his boots, in

4 the -- by the right arm, and his boots. He had bloodshot eyes. He was

5 extremely tall. He said to me that his role in all of this was very

6 important and that he had huge responsibilities and authorisation as well.

7 Q. Did he ask you anything about the conditions in which you were

8 detained or what had happened to the detainees?

9 A. He didn't ask me anything about the conditions that we were living

10 in. He was interested in an entirely different matter.

11 Q. What was he interested in?

12 A. He was interested in the behaviour of the soldiers that, while at

13 the time of our arrest, were taking away valuables from those that were

14 detained.

15 Q. And he questioned you about this incident, did he?

16 A. Yes. His interrogation was reduced to this event. He said that

17 his army was honourable and that he would not allow any kind of robbing in

18 his military, and he said that his soldiers had to be punished by death if

19 they did such a thing. It was then that I understood what Milan Popovic's

20 words meant, and he said that the life and death of many people depended

21 on me. Milan Popovic was the man who took me to see Vojvoda.

22 Q. What did you tell this Vojvoda?

23 A. I was extremely calm at that moment. I said that I understood

24 that people who might have conducted themselves in such a way, and that I

25 understood that they probably also lost somebody in this war, and I asked

Page 8975

1 him to look at the situation from that perspective, that he should not

2 punish his soldiers by death because of their temporary emotions. Your

3 Honours, you can imagine how difficult it was for me to utter these words.

4 I was defending somebody that I was actually -- that I should have

5 been attacking.

6 Q. After you'd answered the Vojvoda in this manner, what happened

7 next between the two of you?

8 A. He said to me, "Do you know, Jelena, that the Ustashas are

9 slaughtering Serbian children and putting their heads into their mother's

10 laps?" I said that I was not aware of such an act, and that I hoped that

11 it wasn't true, but if it was, then this kind of thing should be

12 condemned. However, that kind of action was not the fault of the soldiers

13 and the people that were in this area.

14 Q. Did you ask him to take any action on behalf of these sick

15 children who were still with you at the centre?

16 A. Our conversation was very long that night. I managed to turn a

17 wild animal into a calm man, and I asked him politely to help the children

18 that on that sixth day really looked terrible. I asked him if there was

19 any possibility to bring any kind of a doctor and to administer help. He

20 thought about it for a while and then he said that he agreed -- was

21 agreeing to a compromise.

22 Q. And what compromise was that?

23 A. He said to me that he would allow the children that were the most

24 sick to leave that area and to go to the nearest hospital, escorted by his

25 men, under condition that my life be at any moment at their disposal. He

Page 8976

1 also said to me that I would go with them but escorted by heavy guards,

2 and in case of any kind of an incident or, God forbid, of an attack from

3 the opposing side, I would be killed. I was happy that such a man showed

4 some form of compassion, despite the fact that my life could have been the

5 price.

6 Q. Were the children taken to a hospital?

7 A. Yes. They put me in a vehicle, and the leader inside my vehicle

8 was the police officer that followed me and took me to see Vojvoda, and I

9 later found out that 12 children were put into the other vehicles. And we

10 left towards the direction that at the time was unknown to me.

11 Q. Did this happen directly after you had spoken with this Vojvoda or

12 at a later time?

13 A. This happened immediately after our conversation, during the same

14 night.

15 Q. Where did the vehicles that you and the children were in

16 eventually go to?

17 A. Unfortunately, I talked a lot and I was very brazen, and I let it

18 slip out that I knew which direction we were being led to because we were

19 going fishing there very frequently. This is -- this was the road towards

20 Pisari. We came to a private house with a huge yard, and I assume that

21 the people that live in that house were notified by phone. After I left

22 the car, a guard was waiting for me, and a young doctor came out who did

23 not say his name, but he said he was from Doboj. And he said that this

24 was a makeshift hospital for the wounded, but not a place for children.

25 But despite that, he still admitted our children.

Page 8977

1 Q. Did the children stay there or were they given some treatment and

2 were they then returned to the sports centre in Crkvina?

3 A. The children were just examined at that time. They were given the

4 most basic medical treatment, some medication. And we were all returned

5 together to our previous residence. On the way back, I was told that the

6 hospital had to be transferred to another location, given the fact that I

7 had recognised where it was. So that for security purposes, they had to

8 move it.

9 Q. When you returned that night, did you go back to your -- the usual

10 place where you slept?

11 A. Yes. It was already dawn, and it was impossible to even think

12 about going to sleep.

13 Q. Was this the only time that you had an occasion to meet this

14 Vojvoda?

15 A. No. This was not the only occasion.

16 Q. Did you meet him again while you were detained in Crkvina?

17 A. Yes. We met again. He came to find me in the room under number

18 2.

19 Q. And was this for another meeting or was it for some other purpose?

20 A. He came to see whether everything was all right, and he said that

21 I had a visitor.

22 Q. And who was that visitor?

23 A. That was my boyfriend, Esref Kapetanovic.

24 Q. Did he allow you to meet with Esref?

25 A. He gave me 15 minutes, and that was all.

Page 8978

1 Q. During the 15 minutes you were with Esref Kapetanovic, did he tell

2 you whether he'd tried to make any contact with any of the defendants?

3 A. Certainly.

4 Q. Who had he tried to make contact with?

5 A. He said to me that he went to the apartment of my neighbour,

6 Mr. Simo Zaric.

7 Q. And what did he say had happened between him and Simo Zaric?

8 A. He went to ask Simo to intervene in order that I would be let free

9 from that camp.

10 Q. And how did Mr. Zaric respond?

11 A. That he can do nothing, that it is not in his competence.

12 Q. Mr. Zaric knew that people were being held in Crkvina, did he?

13 A. Certainly.

14 Q. Did Esref bring anything to you or did you just speak with him?

15 A. Yes. He brought a sleeping bag and a track suit.

16 Q. After this visit, approximately how many more days or nights did

17 you spend in that centre?

18 A. At this point in time, I'm not quite sure, but I do know that I

19 slept another -- we spent another day or two there.

20 Q. Thank you. After about two days, approximately, you were released

21 from the sports centre in Crkvina; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How were you told that you were being released from the sports

24 centre?

25 A. It must have been around noon on that day, I don't know exactly

Page 8979

1 the day or the time, although there was some commotion and some trucks

2 arrived, and we were told that Crkvina must be evacuated. We were told

3 that all women residents of Samac may go home and all of those who were

4 brought in from neighbouring villages would have to go to Zasavica.

5 Q. Who came to tell you this information, if you can remember?

6 A. Well, at the head of that operation was Mr. Savo Cancar.

7 Q. Could I just seek a clarification? Was it a Savo Cancar or a

8 Savo Cancarevic?

9 A. I believe that you're right, that his surname is Cancarevic.

10 Q. Did you know Mr. Cancarevic from prior to your detention in

11 Crkvina?

12 A. Yes, extremely well.

13 Q. Was he from Bosanski Samac?

14 A. No. He was not from Bosanski Samac, but he worked in the police

15 station as a policeman, and for years we were cooperating.

16 Q. So the police station in Bosanski Samac?

17 A. Yes, yes, in the police station of Bosanski Samac.

18 Q. Were you then put on a truck and taken back to Bosanski Samac

19 town?

20 A. They were taken in two rounds. I wanted to see that nobody got

21 lost or was left behind. I ran, and when I came, the first group was

22 already -- had already departed. When I understood that many are not

23 being released, I asked Mr. Cancarevic, why are they being taken to

24 Zasavica, why aren't they releasing them and letting them go home, as was

25 our case from Samac.

Page 8980

1 Q. And what did Mr. Cancarevic tell you, if anything?

2 A. Yes. He was quite clear. He took a pistol and he said, "I'm fed

3 up with you paramilitaries." Luckily, the driver of the truck was close

4 to him, moved his hand, and somebody who was present then helped me into

5 the truck.

6 Q. So Mr. Cancarevic didn't offer you an explanation as to why they

7 were being taken to Zasavica, he just expressed his anger at you by

8 pointing his pistol at you; is that correct?

9 A. Precisely that.

10 Q. When this -- when the driver helped you on to the truck, did the

11 truck then take you back to your apartment in Bosanski Samac town?

12 A. The moment I was put on the truck, I was given a pill to calm

13 down, and I know that then I was got off in the street, Edvard Kardelj

14 Street.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. REIDY: Could I ask that the witness be shown a document? The

17 document is document C40 from the Prosecution's exhibit list. I've

18 distributed conies to Defence counsel and I have copies here for the

19 Bench. I'm not leaving this topic, I just -- these are for the Bench, and

20 if this copy which is highlighted could be shown to the witness.

21 For the record, this document is a document dated the 15th of May,

22 1992. It's a document from the Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac

23 Crisis Staff, and it's a decision on the isolation of persons of Croat

24 nationality. We've provided the Bench with both a B/C/S copy and an

25 English translation.

Page 8981

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

2 MS. REIDY: Thank you. Perhaps it could be marked before we

3 discuss it.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please?

5 THE REGISTRAR: It is P71 ID, Your Honours, and P71 ter ID. Thank

6 you.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

8 MS. REIDY:

9 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic --

10 MS. REIDY: Excuse me, could I ask the usher, perhaps the B/C/S

11 version could be put on the ELMO? I understand that's how the defendants

12 follow the trial.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Although, Ms. Reidy, if the copy that's being put

14 on the ELMO is as indistinct as the one we've been given, it's going to be

15 very hard to read it on the screen.

16 MS. REIDY: Absolutely, Your Honour. I appreciate that. I think

17 the copy that has been provided is the same; everybody's in the same

18 position. It was the quality of the copy that we were handed from -- I

19 think, in fact, it was one of the Defence counsel who originally in 1998

20 handed it over to the OTP. As you can see from the translation provided,

21 that the Translation Unit within the Tribunal were able -- have given it a

22 full translation. And I hope that the highlighting of it makes it

23 somewhat more clear, and I think it still may be of somewhat more use to

24 the Defence rather than the English, if that's -- okay.

25 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, maybe because it's difficult for you to read --

Page 8982

1 clearer for you to read from the actual document, could I just ask you to

2 read out, as best you can, the highlighted part in the middle of the

3 document?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?

5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I don't know, it's a general

6 objection to this. What is the relevance with this document and this

7 witness? This is another institution, another body. I mean maybe, and

8 probably, the Prosecution will have much more informed witnesses in this

9 case to discuss that document. It's just a principal objection that this

10 witness cannot give any kind of comments --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, she hasn't yet been asked about this

12 document.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, just in that case.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Why are you objecting?

15 MR. PANTELIC: Because my learned friend, Miss Reidy, started,

16 "Can you read the document?"

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Why don't you let the Prosecution go ahead? Sit

18 down, Mr. Pantelic, won't you?

19 MR. PANTELIC: Just to prevent possible --

20 MS. REIDY:

21 Q. Again, Mrs. Kapetanovic, you'll see there is a section highlighted

22 on the document, and it may be easier, more legible for you, if you can --

23 you can look at the document itself. Could you see if you could read that

24 paragraph that's highlighted out slowly into the record so that we all

25 know what the document is about?

Page 8983

1 A. Yes, I can. "Decision. With this decision, on the territory of

2 municipality of Serbian Bosanski Samac, all members of the Croatian --

3 Croat people are to be isolated and distributed on the vital facilities in

4 the town and the surroundings. The date, the 15th of May, 1992."

5 Q. Thank you. Could I ask you to look at the bottom part of it? And

6 is there any indication the source of this decision, either -- sorry. I

7 ask you to have a look at the document and if you can tell us what the

8 source, the people who made this decision are?

9 A. Yes, I can. It -- what one can observe, further below, the

10 stamp, "Bosanski Samac" and with the symbol of 4 S's, and it's clear that

11 the source -- what the source is, it is the 4th Detachment.

12 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I'm going to ask you to look to the top

13 left-hand corner. I'm afraid it's not highlighted. And above the date --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. There is the name of a body. Could you just tell us who that is?

16 A. The Serb Municipality of Bosanski Samac Crisis Staff. Just what I

17 said previously.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, have you seen this document before arriving in

19 The Hague?

20 A. No.

21 Q. But on or around the 15th of May, you were detained from your

22 apartment along with other persons of Croat nationality; is that correct?

23 A. Yes. The date is identical to that of what I have told you in my

24 statement.

25 Q. And in the time preceding the 15th of May, were you in fact

Page 8984

1 isolated with other persons of Croat nationality from Bosanski Samac and

2 from the vital facility -- and from villages around Bosanski Samac?

3 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour, to this form of question.

4 It cannot be used the form "isolated." The other wording would be proper.

5 It's a slightly leading question to this witness. Thank you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah, it's a leading question, Ms. Reidy. If you

7 can rephrase it.

8 MS. REIDY:

9 Q. Were you, in the time period following the 15th of May, held

10 together with other persons of Croat nationality from the territory of

11 Bosanski Samac town and villages surrounding Bosanski Samac?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were you held in a particular facility against your will?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. At any stage whilst you were there, were you able to leave the

16 facility or return to your home?

17 A. No.

18 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I realise now it's half past.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

20 MS. REIDY: I can pick up on this tomorrow.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness will be allowed to leave the

22 courtroom. The evidence will be continued at a later stage.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 JUDGE MUMBA: We will go into private session, please.

25 [Private session]

Page 8985

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24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

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