1 Wednesday, 5 June 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic and
9 Simo Zaric.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution is continuing with the
12 MS. REIDY: Thank you. Good morning, Your Honours.
13 WITNESS: JELENA KAPETANOVIC [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examination by Ms. Reidy: [Continued]
16 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Kapetanovic. Can you hear me?
17 THE INTERPRETER: The witness does not have the microphone on.
18 A. Yes, I can hear you. Good morning.
19 Q. Good morning. At the end of yesterday's testimony, you had just
20 begun to describe the events of the night of the 16th to the 17th of
21 April, 1992, in Bosanski Samac. And you had described to the Chamber how
22 you had been awoken by gunfire and how that, during the passage of the
23 night from about 1.30 in the morning through to dawn, you had received
24 various forms of information from a number of neighbours living in the
25 same apartment block as you. And you finished by telling us that in the
1 early morning, that the group of special units and 4th Detachment had come
2 to the apartment block and that the person who had -- was at the entrance
3 of your apartment was one of the defendants, Mr. Miroslav Tadic. Do you
4 recall ending on that testimony yesterday afternoon?
5 A. Yes, I remember.
6 MS. REIDY: Could I ask if the witness could be given P68 ID?
7 That's a diagram of Edvard Kardelj block number 62, with the ERN 02199070.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic?
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have an objection regarding the
10 question that my colleague from the Prosecution asked. I said that -- I
11 don't think that the time was stated yesterday in the record when the
12 4th Detachment members came, and the question that the Prosecutor asked
13 now states that it happened at 1.30. However, I don't remember that the
14 witness stated yesterday when the members came to her building. Or if the
15 Prosecutor could indicate exactly in the record where the witness stated
16 the time.
17 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour. 1.30 was not the time of the
18 arrival of the 4th Detachment, and I don't believe that's what I said. I
19 said, "the passage of the night from about 1.30 in the morning through to
20 dawn." And the witness on the unofficial transcript indicated the time --
21 let me see -- at 1.30, about 1.30 in the morning, when she woke up. And
22 that was at line 7 on page 84 of yesterday's transcript. And then she
23 went on to describe during the night how there had been a number of
24 telephone calls received and that special -- 4th Detachment and
25 special units arrived and that it was then later, after these events had
1 passed, that the 4th Detachment and special units arrived and
2 Mr. Miroslav Tadic was at the entrance, was standing by her entranceway,
3 and that is at page 90 of yesterday's unofficial transcript.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic?
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My remark was that the witness said no
6 where that in the early hours they came to her apartment building. That's
7 what the question was. And on page 90, in the answer, it was said -- the
8 question was whether she saw some of the defendants. The witness said,
9 [In English] "I didn't know about it but later I had opportunity one of
10 the defendants standing by my entrance."
11 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have this clarified,
13 if possible, or if the Prosecution could maybe change the question and
14 reword it.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: I think the problem is the fact that the witness did
16 say she woke up around 1.30 and then the events unfolded towards -- as
17 dawn was breaking. And then just deal with that, Miss Reidy, with the
19 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour. I don't think that's a
20 problem at all.
21 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, you testified yesterday that at some stage,
22 special units and sections of the 4th Detachment arrived towards your
23 building. Could you tell us about what time it was when these special
24 forces and the 4th Detachment came to the apartment block?
25 A. Yes, I can answer this question. This happened in the early hours
1 before noon. I could never -- I never knew the exact time and I don't
2 think I could give you the exact time now because I didn't consult my
3 watch, but it felt like an eternity.
4 Q. And you also testified yesterday that you then had the opportunity
5 to see Mr. Miroslav Tadic standing at your entranceway. Could you tell
6 us, to the best of your recollection, what time this was, when you saw
7 Mr. Tadic standing at the entranceway to your apartment?
8 A. I can say that they had already started, the night was over, it
9 was already visible, but I could not give you the exact hour. The only
10 thing I can say is that it was early and it was before noon.
11 Q. So can I clarify, you said that the 4th Detachment and the special
12 units arrived sometime in the morning before noon - you can't be very
13 specific - and I understand you to say that you saw Miroslav Tadic in your
14 entranceway at the same time. Did these incidents coincide more or less,
15 the arrival of the 4th Detachment and the special units, and then your
16 subsequent sighting of Miroslav Tadic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Could I ask you now to look at the diagram in front of
19 you on your screen? And it's P68 ID for the record. Yesterday you
20 marked with an "A" where your apartment block is. On the diagram, there
21 are a number of arrows - we will start with the left-hand street - a
22 number of arrows drawn on which you instructed to be drawn. Could you
23 please explain to the Court what the arrows on the left-hand street
25 A. I can explain this. These arrows represent the direction of the
1 movement of the 4th Detachment, that is to say, of the first soldiers that
2 I saw in my entire life.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the Witness use the pointer to show us which
5 arrows she's talking about?
6 MS. REIDY:
7 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, can I ask you to take the pointer and show us
8 where you said you've seen -- you saw the first movements of the 4th
10 A. The 4th Detachment members were passing by this street. They were
11 moving slowly in this direction.
12 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me -- the movement you saw on the
13 street, you've indicated. Was that soldiers on foot, were they in
14 vehicles or was it a mixture of vehicles and foot soldiers?
15 A. It was a mixture. In this direction, there was an armoured
16 vehicle moving, and on the side of the vehicle and in front of the
17 vehicle, there were pedestrians, people on foot.
18 Q. And people on foot, these were -- were these people on foot armed
19 and wearing camouflage or military uniforms?
20 A. Yes. They had full weapons on them and they wore camouflage
22 Q. Thank you. Now, do see there is a building, in fact, just where
23 you have the pointer on, a building with lots of entrances? Could you
24 just explain to the Chamber what that building is? It's a building in
25 front of 62 Edvard Kardelj.
1 A. The building in front, I think you're referring to this one here,
2 is a set of garages and they have entrances from this and this side.
3 Q. Thank you. And in front of the garages is indicated at the end of
4 the arrows what I understand is to be a -- I believe it to be the -- an
5 armoured vehicle, where an armoured vehicle stopped; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Did you witness all these movements from your apartment on the
8 second floor, the third level, of 62 Edvard Kardelj?
9 A. Yes. I saw this with my own eyes.
10 Q. Is that the only armoured vehicle that stopped in front of your
11 house that morning, or the only one that you could see from your font
13 A. I saw this one vehicle, and that was quite enough.
14 Q. Could you also, for the record, explain what is represented by the
15 arrows on the right-hand side that come in from Edvard Kardelj Street, the
16 two arrows which from the right-hand side then that pass down by
17 entrances 7, 6 and 5 of your apartment complex?
18 A. Certainly. The first arrow indicates the entrance, the main
19 entrance, into our building area. The second arrow indicates the pathway
20 that leads to all the entrances into the building.
21 Q. And did you see any movement of soldiers or other persons that
22 morning of the 17th of April in around the area where you just indicated
23 where the arrows are on the right-hand side?
24 A. No. I did not notice it.
25 Q. So all the activity came from the left-hand side of your apartment
1 building; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. Thank you. When --
4 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a question, just a small question. The
5 street where the arrows are on the left-hand side, what's the name of that
6 street? On the right-hand side, you had Edvard Kardelj Street, but where
7 you saw the movement of the 4th Detachment and the armed vehicle, what's
8 the name of that street?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this very moment, I can't
11 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.
12 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
13 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, you've told the Chamber that from your front
14 living-room, you observed this movement of 4th Detachment and the armoured
15 vehicle coming to park in front of the garages belonging to your apartment
16 complex. Could you tell the Chamber what happened after the armoured
17 vehicle came to a stop?
18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, before the witness answers that
19 question, I would like to know how high, how tall, the garage building is,
20 because looking at the map, it would seem that the garage building and the
21 witness's apartment building -- well, the garage building could well
22 obscure the street, the no-name street. I want to know how tall the
23 garage building is, and in relation to the witness's apartment building,
24 from her window, could she see over the top of the garage building.
25 MS. REIDY:
1 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I think Her Honour's questions are clear. Could
2 you explain the relation -- the height of your building compared to the
3 garage and the view, obstructed or otherwise, you would have had from your
4 front living-room window?
5 A. The building that we are talking about, that is located here, is a
6 prefabricated building and it consists of a larger number of prefabricated
7 garages, and its height is no where more than 2 metres. The building does
8 not have a roof. It has a flat ceiling. I lived on the second floor. I
9 wouldn't be able to tell you what height my floor is on, but I had
10 visibility of this entire area.
11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
12 MS. REIDY:
13 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Now, Mrs. Kapetanovic, I had
14 asked if you could tell the Chamber what happened immediately after the
15 armoured vehicle you were watching came to stop in front of the garage
16 building belonging to your apartment complex.
17 A. You could hear commands, fast movements of soldiers could be seen.
18 Q. What sort of commands could you hear? What --
19 A. They were very short, very strict. They were indicated direction
20 of their movement and the entrances into which they were supposed to go
22 Q. So were they commands telling the soldiers what action they should
23 take? Is that the sort of command you're talking about?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What did you do in -- what did you do when you saw this vehicle
1 pulling up and then you heard the commands being given to soldiers and
2 soldiers moving quickly? What was your reaction to this incident?
3 A. I tried to wait for this moment as peacefully and as calmly as I
4 could. I mean, I tried to wait for my encounter with the soldiers in this
6 Q. What were you are doing in your apartment at this time, as you
7 said, to try to keep everything calm and peaceful, as you said?
8 A. I tried to create an image of a spontaneous welcome. I took a
9 bowl with eggs, as if I was going to make a cake for Easter. When I -- I
10 gave my dog, Peggy, to my husband - then boyfriend - so that it would not
11 look as if he had weapons in his hands.
12 Q. So you tried to create an air of normality, is that it?
13 A. Yes. That's exactly right, as if guests were arriving.
14 Q. Did members of these special units and 4th Detachment enter
15 entrance number 2, the entrance to your apartment block?
16 A. Yes, they did.
17 Q. And how did you know that they had entered your entrance?
18 A. Because of the noise that could be heard inside the entrance, in
19 the hallways.
20 Q. And was this general noise or could you also hear instructions
21 being shouted?
22 A. I heard instructions, commands.
23 Q. Can you recall what the instructions were that you heard?
24 A. "Open the door," and things like that.
25 Q. And what did you do when you could -- when you heard these
1 instructions being shouted?
2 A. I opened the door, with my bowl in my hand, and I went downstairs
3 and my husband went with me.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you. Could I just for this introduction ask that the
5 witness be shown P69 ID, which is the diagram that just depicts her
6 apartment block? And it has an ERN of 02199072.
7 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, you just said that you came out of your
8 apartment block -- or your apartment and you went downstairs. On the
9 diagram in front of you, and using the pointer, could you just explain how
10 far down the stairs you went when you heard the instructions to open the
12 A. Yes, I can show it. I came up to here.
13 Q. This is midway between the first and the second floor; is that
15 A. That's exactly right.
16 Q. It's kind of a -- is it a landing area between the first and
17 second floors?
18 A. Yes, it's a landing area.
19 Q. And when you reached this point, what did you see or did you meet
20 anybody when you got to this point?
21 A. Yes. On this landing, the first man I saw was Mr. Miroslav Tadic.
22 Q. Was Mr. Miroslav Tadic in civilian clothing or was he wearing a
23 military uniform?
24 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform.
25 Q. Was he armed?
1 A. Yes. He had -- he was fully armed.
2 Q. Now, you said that you saw Mr. Miroslav Tadic. Did you say
3 anything to him or did he say anything to you on this occasion?
4 A. Yes. I greeted him, and then he addressed me.
5 Q. And what did he tell you?
6 A. He asked me what I was doing there with this bowl and the eggs.
7 Q. And did you explain to him?
8 A. Yes. I told him I was making a cake for Easter.
9 Q. And you said your husband had also come out of your apartment
10 block. Did Mr. Tadic address your husband or your then-boyfriend?
11 A. Yes. He addressed him as well.
12 Q. And what did he tell your boyfriend?
13 A. "You Major's son, you had better take your gun and fight and not
14 hold that dog."
15 Q. Could you explain what you understood Mr. Tadic to mean by first
16 the comment to your husband, "Major's son," and secondly what he meant by,
17 "You better take your gun and fight and not hold that dog"?
18 A. My husband was of military age and it was understood that he
19 should fight.
20 Q. And what did he mean by "Major's son"? Can you explain that to
22 A. Certainly. My husband's father, my then-boyfriend, was known by
23 his nickname of "Major" and, therefore, my boyfriend was called "Major's
25 Q. Thank you. Did your husband react to this comment at all?
1 A. Yes, he did react to it.
2 Q. And what did he say?
3 A. " Weapons are not for me."
4 Q. Did Mr. Tadic explain to you what was happening or give you any
5 instructions as to what you should do after you'd had this initial
7 A. No, no explanation, and he entered my apartment.
8 Q. Did he enter your apartment alone or did he enter with other --
9 did other men accompany him?
10 A. He did not enter alone. He was accompanied.
11 Q. By approximately how many other people?
12 A. Three or four, who entered my apartment.
13 Q. And the people who entered, were they also soldiers in military
14 uniform and armed?
15 A. Yes. These were soldiers in camouflage uniforms and fully armed.
16 Q. And after they'd entered your apartment, what did they proceed to
18 A. They began searching the entire apartment.
19 Q. Did they tell you what they were looking for?
20 A. Yes, yes. They told me what they were looking for.
21 Q. And what was that?
22 A. They were looking for weapons and a radio transmitter.
23 Q. And did they find anything like that in your apartment?
24 A. No. They found nothing.
25 Q. Did you have any weapons or any radio transmitter in your
2 A. No, I had neither of the two.
3 Q. After they'd finished searching and found nothing, did the
4 soldiers, including Mr. Tadic, then leave your apartment?
5 A. Yes, very angry and they left the apartment.
6 Q. Was yours the only apartment they searched in that block or did
7 they search the other apartments, too?
8 A. They searched also the other apartments in the building.
9 Q. Did they find any weapons in any of the other apartments in the
11 A. No, they did not find anything.
12 Q. What was their reaction when they couldn't find any weapons?
13 A. They were extremely angry.
14 Q. Did Mr. Tadic say anything to you after he couldn't find any
15 weapons in the apartment block?
16 A. Not to me.
17 Q. Did you hear him say something to somebody else?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. And what did you hear him say?
20 A. I heard him turning and speaking to Salko Porobic.
21 Q. And what did you hear him say to Mr. Porobic?
22 A. He was asking Salko Porobic to show him the automatic rifle.
23 Q. Did Mr. Porobic have an automatic rifle?
24 A. No. Salko had no weapons.
25 Q. And after Mr. Tadic had ask -- you overheard Mr. Tadic asking
1 Mr. Porobic for the automatic rifle, what happened then?
2 A. I attempted to calm down Mr. Miroslav Tadic.
3 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, could I ask you to look again at the diagram to
4 your right? And if you could just point out where this particular
5 interaction occurred, where Mr. Tadic was asking about the automatic
6 weapon and he was getting angry and then you said you tried to calm him
8 A. Yes. It was in this area.
9 Q. Could I also ask, with the help of the usher, if you could just
10 mark a "B" in that location where this interaction occurred?
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Thank you very much. Now, you said you tried to calm down
13 Mr. Tadic. What did you say to him?
14 A. I said that Salko Porobic was a sick man and that he wasn't fit to
15 carry arms.
16 Q. Did you overhear Mr. Tadic giving instructions to any of the other
17 soldiers who were accompanying him?
18 A. Yes, I did hear that.
19 Q. And what did you hear?
20 A. Well, the -- he will order that our floor be destroyed.
21 Q. Did he tell you that he would order that or did you hear him give
22 instructions to some of the men accompanying him, that they should destroy
23 your floor?
24 A. He was very angry that he would do that.
25 Q. I'm sorry, Mrs. Kapetanovic, I don't quite understand that answer.
1 It says -- the transcript says that you said, "He was very angry that he
2 would do that." It's still not clear to me whether you overheard him give
3 instructions to somebody else, saying that he would order your floor to be
4 destroyed or he told you that he was going to order your floor to be
6 A. No, no. He didn't say that to me, but to his men.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just go over this, please? What exactly did
9 you hear him say to his men?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said that the weapons must be
11 found, and if it will not be found, then our floor will be destroyed.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
13 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Did he --
15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Actually, just again, just to clear this up. We
16 now know what Mr. Tadic allegedly said. But who did he say it to? Did he
17 say it to his group of soldiers, "If you don't find weapons, destroy the
18 floor"? Or did he make this general comment out loud that the floor will
19 be destroyed, to anyone who was listening?
20 MS. REIDY:
21 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, if you could just clarify that for Her Honour.
22 A. Certainly. I said that Mr. Miroslav Tadic was very angry because
23 he did not find weapons, but he was sure that the weapons were here. And
24 he said, in the presence -- our presence and presence of his men, that he
25 will order that our floor be demolished, and it referred to us.
1 Q. Let's make that clear. He said in your presence that he will
2 order the floor to be demolished? He didn't as such give instructions to
3 his men to demolish the floor if they didn't find the weapons?
4 A. At that moment, he did not order the floor to be demolished.
5 Q. So this is clear, you heard him say to his men -- you heard him
6 say to his men, "If we don't find the weapons, the floor will be
7 destroyed"? That was the general comment more than an order to destroy
8 the floor there and then, so to speak?
9 A. At that moment, it was a comment, a comment, which lasted for
10 quite some time.
11 Q. After this comment, did the soldiers continue to search the
12 apartment block?
13 A. Yes, they continued.
14 Q. And did they search everywhere in the apartment block, including
15 the attic that you can see in the diagram?
16 A. Yes. They were searching.
17 Q. Did the soldiers find anything?
18 A. No. They found nothing.
19 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, as best as you can recall, can you tell us
20 roughly how long this lasted, from the time that the men entered your
21 apartment block, conducted searches of the flats and searched the
22 apartment block?
23 A. Approximately almost two hours.
24 Q. Of the men who were in your apartment block, was it your
25 impression that Miroslav was the one in charge of them?
1 A. Absolutely.
2 Q. And why do you say "absolutely"?
3 A. Because he was the only one who was giving orders.
4 Q. And did the men follow his instructions?
5 A. Certainly.
6 Q. The other men you've described who entered with him, could you
7 tell whether they were locals, whether they were non-locals or whether
8 there was a mixture of both locals and non-locals amongst the soldiers who
9 entered your building?
10 A. It was a mixture of soldiers.
11 Q. And how could you tell that there was some local and non-local?
12 How could you distinguish between them?
13 A. Only by their speech.
14 Q. So some spoke with a typical local accent, and some spoke with
15 what you testified yesterday to, an Ekavian or Serbian accent; is that
17 A. Precisely so.
18 Q. Apart from Mr. Miroslav Tadic himself, did you personally know any
19 of the other soldiers who entered your apartment block?
20 A. No. I couldn't recognise them.
21 Q. When the soldiers had finished the searches and found nothing
22 after you said about two hours, did they then leave your apartment block?
23 A. Yes. They left our entrance, our section.
24 Q. They left your section. Did some soldiers remain around the
25 apartment complex number 62 Edvard Kardelj?
1 A. Yes, yes, they remained.
2 Q. Did the armoured vehicle also remain or did the armoured vehicle
3 move on to another location?
4 A. It remained here.
5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I wonder whether you could tell us whether you
6 saw Mr. Tadic and these soldiers also go into number 1, number 3, number
7 4, Mr. Zaric's block, and so on, or was it just your entranceway and the
8 block that you were living in that was searched in this way?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the only entrance that such
10 an operation was carried out when Mr. Tadic is in question. I'm speaking
11 of that what I had seen.
12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
13 MS. REIDY:
14 Q. Just to follow up on that, it's quite clear that you only saw
15 Mr. Tadic come into your apartment block. Could you tell, from what you
16 could see or hear, whether or not soldiers had entered any of the other
18 A. Yes, the soldiers entered also the other entrances.
19 Q. Could you tell this because you saw some of them going into the
20 entrances or because you could hear orders being given for them to enter
21 some of the other entranceways?
22 A. We could hear the orders.
23 Q. Then is that because you were then inside your block as the
24 searching was going on, you couldn't see anything else outside during that
1 A. At that moment, no.
2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Witness, did you look out of your window? Could
3 you see anything out of the window or not?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I did look through the
5 window. A lot of commotion and quite a few soldiers.
6 MS. REIDY:
7 Q. And was this before Mr. Tadic entered your building or after they
8 had left?
9 A. After they had left.
10 Q. Maybe I could just clarify that. You were looking out your window
11 when you saw the armoured vehicle come down the street and pull up in
12 front of your garage; is that correct?
13 A. Yes. When they were arriving, that is correct.
14 Q. You then --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought that was cleared earlier on when she was
16 describing how she saw them and pointed out to the arrows and all that. I
17 don't see the reason for going over it again.
18 MS. REIDY: Okay, Your Honour. I just thought there may be an
19 ambiguity on the record, but if it's clear to the bench, then that's fine.
20 Q. You said that you looked out again after Mr. Tadic had left, and
21 you said that the armoured vehicle stayed there. Did it stay there for
22 the whole day or did it eventually leave from in front of your apartment
24 A. It did leave, but I do not recollect when.
25 Q. Did soldiers remain in and around your apartment complex after the
1 armoured vehicle had left or did they leave with the vehicle?
2 A. Most of the soldiers remained.
3 Q. They remained guarding your building or what were they doing after
4 the vehicle had left?
5 A. They remained there on guard.
6 Q. Were they on guard in front of your building, in front of
7 particular entrances, or were they patrolling the streets and the area in
8 which the building was?
9 A. They were standing in front of the building, as well as along the
11 Q. Could I ask you to look at diagram P68 again, which indicates the
12 apartment complex? And using the pointer, could you indicate where you
13 could see some soldiers still standing after the armoured vehicle had
15 A. Yes, I can.
16 Q. Perhaps I could just ask you to take a marker again and just mark
17 those areas where you could see some soldiers.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Thank you. Could you indicate roughly how many soldiers you saw
21 A. I don't know the exact number but there were quite a few of them.
22 Q. When you say "quite a few," would that be four or five or more
23 than ten, or could you just give us some rough idea of how many were
25 A. The figure would be approximately around ten.
1 Q. Thank you. And you could see this from your windows of your
2 apartment; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. Did you, yourself, leave your apartment for the rest of that day?
5 A. No, no, I did not leave the apartment at all.
6 Q. Had you received any instruction not to leave your apartment?
7 A. Yes. Such instructions were issued.
8 Q. Can you tell us who issued those instructions or how you were told
9 that you shouldn't leave the apartment?
10 A. I did not hear any direct instructions but people in the building
11 informed me about that.
12 Q. Can you recall now who informed you that there was such
14 A. Yes, I can. Mr. Tubakovic, Mr. Djorde Tubakovic.
15 Q. Thank you. Did he ever tell you who had given him these
17 A. No, no. He never told me that.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, did some other people --
19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: If I could ask the witness a question directly.
20 Yesterday, you told us that Mr. Tubakovic is Serbian. Is that correct?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So he was -- was he also confined to the
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His apartment was not searched, and
25 he could move around.
1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
2 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
3 Q. Did in fact, however, some families who were living in your
4 apartment block, did they leave during that day?
5 A. Yes. In the course of that day, some apartments were abandoned.
6 Q. And was this because you'd received instructions that some women
7 and children would be allowed to evacuate?
8 A. Yes, yes. That was the reason.
9 Q. Could you tell me who left your apartment block that day?
10 A. Well, the following families left: family Porobic, family
11 Culumovic, and two ladies, Avdibegovic and Halilovic.
12 Q. And did the men -- were the men from these families able to leave
13 as well or did the men return?
14 A. They went with them but then they were returned, turned back.
15 Q. The family Avdibegovic, I don't believe you mentioned before.
16 Could you just confirm what ethnicity they are?
17 A. They are Muslim -- of Muslim ethnicity.
18 Q. Thank you. Why did you not try to leave when these families left?
19 A. The only free route was towards Crkvina and into the internal
20 parts, central parts of Bosnia, and I had no one there. I'm from Croatia,
21 and that route was blocked and all I could do was wait.
22 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, did that mean that you were the only non-Serb
23 woman left in your apartment block by the end of the 17th April, by the
24 night of the 17th of April?
25 A. No. Mrs. Culumovic and the other ladies. I apologise, I did not
1 understand your question.
2 Q. That's no problem. I'll repeat it. You've testified that the
3 Porobic, the Culumovic, the Avdibegovic and the Halilovic families tried
4 to evacuate later in the afternoon and that the men had returned. And
5 after this had happened, my question was: Did that mean that you were the
6 only non-Serb female left in your apartment block, block 2, of number 62
7 Edvard Kardelj Street?
8 A. Yes, I was the only one.
9 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I'd just like to set a time frame for a moment.
10 Could you tell me, at some stage after this takeover, were you detained?
11 A. I was detained in my entrance.
12 Q. But were you at some stage taken away and detained at another
13 building or complex?
14 A. Not at that point in time.
15 Q. Okay. Later, a month or so later, were you arrested?
16 A. Yes. Yes, I was arrested.
17 Q. And just to give us the time frame, could you -- do you recall
18 when this first arrest occurred?
19 A. I think it occurred on the 15th of May, 1992.
20 Q. Thank you. So from the 18th of April, when you were the only
21 non-Serb woman in your apartment block, up until the 15th of May, when you
22 said you were arrested, did you remain primarily in your apartment
24 A. Yes. I was exclusively and only in my entranceway.
25 Q. You say exclusively in your entranceway. Did that mean you didn't
1 try to leave the building and you didn't go into town or wander into any
2 other areas of Bosanski Samac?
3 A. No. I didn't even try to do that.
4 Q. Were you ever approached to do forced labour during this period?
5 A. Not in this period.
6 Q. And did your then boyfriend, now husband, remain with you
7 throughout this period, April 18th to approximately May 15?
8 A. Yes. He remained with me.
9 Q. And did he at that stage have to do forced labour?
10 A. He tried to avoid forced labour.
11 Q. And did he manage to avoid it at that time when you were together
12 in the apartment?
13 A. Yes, he did.
14 Q. Do you know why he managed to avoid the forced labour?
15 A. Through his uncle.
16 Q. Could you just explain how his uncle was able to prevent him being
17 taken for forced labour in the beginning?
18 A. His uncle sent non-Serbs, that is to say, he assigned non-Serbs to
19 do work assignments, work obligations.
20 Q. Where was his uncle working?
21 A. Before the war, he worked at the military staff. During the war,
22 his role was to assign forced labourers to their forced labour duties.
23 Q. Thank you. Whilst you were --
24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Could you tell us what ethnic background your
25 then boyfriend's uncle was -- is?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He comes from a typical Muslim
3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
4 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
5 Q. And can I -- you said during the war that his role was to assign
6 or to hand out -- to assign the forced labour tasks. Do you know where he
7 was working when this was his assignment?
8 A. He was working at the local commune, and his -- he had such
9 responsibilities starting on the 17th of April, but actually I'm not quite
10 sure of the date. It was during the war in any case.
11 Q. Thank you. Did other people in your apartment block have to carry
12 out forced labour assignments during this time?
13 A. Yes. All non-Serbs had to carry out forced labour.
14 Q. And did you witness these people --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?
16 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, I do apologise for interfering in
17 this examination. Sorry, my friend. Do we have instruction with regard
18 to the terms used during the examination, such as "forced labour" or --
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes, we've had those instructions for a long
21 MR. PANTELIC: It's possible because --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: I did say that we are using them generally because
23 it seems to be easier, but then the Prosecution know what they have to
24 prove --
25 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, okay. I agree.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: -- on forced labour. We have been through that
3 MR. PANTELIC: Because it's, you know, a little bit confusing
4 here. Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.
5 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
6 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, the question I'd asked was -- you testified that
7 other non-Serbs in the building had to do forced labour, and I'm just
8 going to ask you: Did you witness them leaving to do forced labour and
9 coming home? Is that how you know that they had to do forced labour?
10 A. Yes, that's exactly how I knew. I saw it with my own eyes.
11 Q. Thank you. Did you also hear of any other changes in the period
12 April 18 to May 15? And now I'm speaking of the restrictions that were
13 imposed upon the non-Serb population.
14 A. Yes. I heard of that.
15 Q. What sort of restrictions had you heard had been imposed?
16 A. Restriction of movement, no more than two Muslims were allowed
17 together. Also, people had to be marked with armbands. Doors had to be
18 marked, and so on.
19 Q. Now, you said that no more than two Muslims were allowed together.
20 This also applied to persons of Croat nationality or was it just for
22 A. It referred to all those who were not Serb.
23 Q. You also said that people had to be marked with armbands. Was
24 this non-Serb persons had to wear arm bands?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you said that doors had to be marked and so on. Was this that
2 doors belonging to, again, non -- the non-Serb population should be marked
3 to identify them? Is that it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you recall now what was used to mark the apartment doors?
6 A. The name "Slobodan Stanisic" was taken off of my apartment door
7 because the apartment was no longer a Serb apartment.
8 Q. Do you mean that the names of all non-Serbs were taken -- from
9 what you could see, they took away names of non-Serbs from their apartment
11 A. Yes, that's exactly right.
12 Q. Can you recall now how you heard that these restrictions had been
14 A. I didn't hear the order personally but I was told about it in the
16 Q. And when you said you were told about it in the entranceway, who
17 told you about it in the entranceway?
18 A. The tenants that had remained.
19 Q. So is this some of the other tenants who were indeed out in public
20 and that they came back and told you of these new restrictions in town?
21 Is that it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, whilst you were --
24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Could you just mention the name of
25 which tenants in your block told you this, if you can remember?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Culumovic and
2 Mr. Tubakovic.
3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
4 MS. REIDY:
5 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, whilst you were in your apartment block during
6 this approximate month period, did you ever get any further visits from
7 soldiers or members of the special units?
8 A. Yes. Daily.
9 Q. And could you tell us in which period this happened? Did this
10 happen in the beginning -- in the initial period from the 18th of April,
11 in around the 18th of April, or did it happen later on, shortly before you
12 were arrested?
13 A. It happened from the very beginning, and it happened always at the
14 same time.
15 Q. So it happened from the 18th. Could you tell us exactly what
16 happened? You said it happened always at the same time. What time did
17 these visits occur?
18 A. Certainly. They would come exclusively during lunchtime every
20 Q. And who would come? How many -- well, do you know the people who
21 would come to your apartment block?
22 A. I had never seen them before, but I know there was one woman
23 escorted by four members of the special units, and they called themselves
24 extraordinary specialists. They had camouflage uniforms on and they were
25 fully armed.
1 Q. And what would happen when they came to your apartment in around
2 lunchtime every day?
3 A. The woman, or actually this young woman, would put her pistol
4 against my head while others were searching my apartment.
5 Q. Did they tell you what at the were looking for when they searched
6 your apartment?
7 A. Yes, they did tell me that.
8 Q. And what were they looking for?
9 A. They were looking for the radio transmitter and for weapons.
10 Q. And did they ever find any radio transmitters or weapons?
11 A. This -- no, they never found anything in my apartment.
12 Q. Did you have any radio transmitters or weapons in your apartment?
13 A. I'd never had any weapons. I hate weapons. I had a very small
14 radio transmitter but its range was only two rooms, so that if you were in
15 one room you could hear it in the other.
16 Q. Did they ever find that and take it away?
17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I wonder whether we could clarify the use of this
18 term "radio transmitter," because I think we have had it used in terms of
19 the soldiers, on all of these occasions they came to the apartment were
20 looking for weapons and a radio transmitter. Now, Mrs. Kapetanovic, you
21 mention that you had a small radio transmitter that was in one room and
22 you could hear it from potentially another room, but you used the word
23 "radio transmitter" again. Are you referring in that context, the second
24 context, to an ordinary radio that you listened to broadcasts on or are
25 you referring to a transmitter where you receive messages and you send
1 messages? So if you could just clarify what you mean in the context of
2 you had a small radio transmitter.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will gladly do so. I was always
4 asked to show radio transmitters or to show them that I had radio
5 transmitters that professionals were using, and what I had, I used to
6 communicate with my husband if we happened to be in the next room. It was
7 more like a toy for us.
8 MS. REIDY:
9 Q. But Mrs. Kapetanovic, could you just again explain a radio
10 transmitter, by that you mean some form of walkie-talkie or Motorola radio
11 where you would talk to each other through these radios? Is that you mean
12 by a radio transmitter?
13 A. What I mean by this is the complete equipment, including the
14 radio, with its frequencies, and a walkie-talkie, that was used for
15 communicating. That is a radio transmitter, this whole equipment.
16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
17 MS. REIDY:
18 Q. And this small radio transmitter you said that you did have which
19 you used for communicating between rooms, was that ever found and taken
20 away by any of these special units who came to search your house?
21 A. I showed it to them immediately.
22 Q. Did you show it to the soldiers who were with Miroslav Tadic on
23 the first day?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what was their reaction when they saw it?
1 A. They were interested in it. It was a toy.
2 Q. I'm sorry?
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes the witness said, "They
4 were not interested in it. It was a toy."
5 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
6 Q. I think, Mrs. Kapetanovic, that was just a clarification for the
7 record. So on each occasion that -- so on the first occasion, on the
8 17th, when you had been searched by soldiers accompanying
9 Mr. Miroslav Tadic and on the proceeding occasions where you had these
10 daily lunchtime searches by members of the special forces, they knew that
11 you had this small, baby radio transmitter and they were not interested in
12 that? Is that correct?
13 A. They immediately received this toy from me, but they were not
14 interested in it.
15 Q. Thank you. Were you alone in your apartment when these people
16 came to search or were there other people there when they conducted these
18 A. This was happening at lunchtime and I was not alone.
19 Q. Who else was with you when this was going on?
20 A. All the men from my entranceway were there, who had remained. I
21 was the only non-Serb woman who could prepare at least one cooked meal for
22 them. So they all gathered in my apartment.
23 Q. So these special forces would come in when everybody was there and
24 conduct these searches; is that correct?
25 A. That's exactly correct.
1 Q. Did this continue every day until you were arrested or was it only
2 for a short period of time, a week or so?
3 A. It was happening for a longer period of time.
4 Q. Can you tell us how long these searches continued for?
5 A. Maybe around ten days.
6 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to take you to the 15th or so of May,
7 which was the day you testified you were arrested.
8 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a question. I'll go back to the events on
9 the 17th of April and the first search of your apartment, when Mr. Tadic
10 entered your entrance, and you said that you had gone down from your
11 apartment and that then Mr. Tadic addressed you and your boyfriend, and
12 your boyfriend, I'm not -- I don't have the help of the transcript, but if
13 my memory serves me right, he addressed you, and you said that Mr. Tadic
14 said to your boyfriend, "You'd better leave that dog, take your weapon and
15 fight." How did you understand -- did you understand that it was
16 seriously meant and how did you understand that comment or statement by
17 Mr. Tadic?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For me, this was a very serious
19 remark. Weapons are not a joke.
20 JUDGE LINDHOLM: No, but how did you understand it? Against whom
21 would he be fighting? If Mr. Tadic seriously meant what he said.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I just understood what your
23 question was about. He was supposed to fight with them. That's what he
24 meant, because he addressed him, and it would be logical to conclude that
25 my husband should go with Mr. Tadic to fight for his town. That's what it
1 looked like to me.
2 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
3 Q. Now, Mrs. Kapetanovic, I said -- if I can ask you to focus on the
4 events around the 15th or so of May, which you've testified was the day of
5 your arrest. Were you in your own apartment on the 15th of May?
6 A. Yes. I was in my apartment.
7 Q. And did you get a visit that day from any soldiers and members of
8 the special units?
9 A. Yes. On that day, soldiers came to my apartment. I don't know if
10 they might have also been members of the special police. I'm not sure.
11 Q. How many persons came to your apartment?
12 A. Two entered my apartment.
13 Q. And could you tell us roughly what time of the day it was? Was it
14 the morning, afternoon, late afternoon?
15 A. It was sometime around noon.
16 Q. And what did the soldiers want when they entered your apartment?
17 A. They entered it and one of them asked to see my ID.
18 Q. And did you show him your ID?
19 A. Yes, certainly.
20 Q. And what did the soldier do after he'd read your identification
22 A. He returned the ID to me and he left.
23 Q. What name was on your identification card at this time? This
24 would be mid-May, 1992.
25 A. It said, and I was very lucky that it said, "Jelena Stanisic,
1 Edvard Kardelj, S62, Bosanski Samac."
2 Q. When you say you were very lucky, why is that?
3 A. Because Jelena can also be a Serb name, and my last name,
4 Stanisic, is a typical Serb last name.
5 Q. So do you think the soldier thought that you were a Serb when he
6 read your name?
7 A. Yes. But he knew very well who I was at the time.
8 Q. Could you explain that? Did you know this soldier who was looking
9 at your identification card?
10 A. Yes. I recognised him later. I was lucky that he also recognised
12 Q. And who was he?
13 A. He was my late husband's best man.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: He was my late husband's
15 best man's son.
16 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
17 Q. So do I understand that the soldier who was your late husband's,
18 I'll call him godson, although he knew that you were Croat, he pretended
19 for the sake of the other soldiers who were with him that you were a Serb
20 and he left you alone? Is that it?
21 A. That's exactly right.
22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Miss Reidy, just for the sake of clarity, there
23 is a difference between a best man - and I think the word in B/C/S is
24 "kum" - we've heard it before, and what you now termed a godson.
25 Somebody's godson, where you attend the baptism and you're the godmother
1 or the godfather, that is a different person. So just for clarity's sake,
2 maybe you could rephrase it. Okay?
3 MS. REIDY: Certainly. Just for the record, I think the
4 interpreter corrected it and said that the person who came was her late
5 husband's best man's son, so not the best man, but Your Honour, I'll use
6 that phrase in the future rather than godson. I had been led to believe
7 it was more or less interchangeable.
8 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, maybe you could help us with that. The soldier,
9 you said was the son of your late husband's best man. Does that mean that
10 he was the son of your husband's friend who was a witness at his wedding
11 or that also your husband had a particular role, kind of a protective
12 role, to play over that soldier, over his Kum's son?
13 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Godfather.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My father-in-law held this child at
15 his baptismal ceremony.
16 MS. REIDY:
17 Q. So your husband was the godfather of this soldier who came to see
18 you; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 MS. REIDY: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour, for the correct
22 Q. I'll ask one or two more questions before the break. After this
23 soldier left, did -- was that the end of the events for the day, or did
24 more soldiers come to visit you later that afternoon?
25 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, my understanding is that in fact this
1 young man was a godfather's son, and here in the transcript, I don't see
2 this connection. In fact, it was page 35, line 9, the witness said, "My
3 father-in-law held this child at his baptism ceremony." And, of course,
4 her father-in-law was a godfather to this young soldier. That's the
5 relation. It's not so clear here. Maybe I'm wrong. I allow this.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah. We are taking a lot of time on this. My
7 understanding was that this young soldier was the son of the man who was
8 best man at the late -- at the wedding of the witness with her late
10 Is that correct, Mrs. Kapetanovic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He was there at the
12 christening. He was the godson.
13 MR. PANTELIC: But her father-in-law was a godfather to this young
15 JUDGE MUMBA: To the soldier.
16 MR. PANTELIC: So it's not directly related with the -- his or her
17 father. It's a father-in-law.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Father-in-law, yes, okay.
19 MR. PANTELIC: For the clarification, but we know about which
20 relation we are speaking about, as a matter of clarity. I don't know if
21 it helps for our friend from the Prosecution.
22 MS. REIDY: It's, frankly, the soldier who came knew who she was.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think that's sufficient. Can we have our
24 break? It's 10.30. We will resume our proceedings at 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Miss Reidy, examination-in-chief.
3 MS. REIDY:
4 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I'd like now to focus on the events of the
5 afternoon of the 15th or so of May, 1992, after the first visit to your
6 apartment by some Serb soldiers. Did you receive a second visit later
7 that afternoon?
8 A. Yes, yes, there was this visit.
9 Q. And did soldiers come to your apartment?
10 A. Yes. They entered my apartment.
11 Q. And what did they say to you when they entered your apartment?
12 A. That I am being arrested, that I must go downstairs.
13 Q. Did they tell you why you were being arrested?
14 A. No. They did not tell me why I was being arrested.
15 Q. And did they tell you where they were going to take you?
16 A. At that precise moment, they didn't tell me where they -- where
17 I'll be going.
18 Q. And the people who came to your apartment, were they in military
19 uniform and armed?
20 A. Yes, yes. They were armed.
21 Q. Did they permit to you take any personal belongings with you?
22 A. They said that I can take something with me, but I didn't know at
23 the time what I would be needing.
24 Q. So did you leave the apartment then in just what you had on you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When they took you out of your apartment and downstairs, what
2 happened to you then?
3 A. In front of my entrance, a truck was parked without the roof, the
4 tarpaulin was raised, and police were standing by it or, rather, people in
6 Q. Just to clarify, the people in uniform, did it look to you like
7 they were in police uniform or more of a military, soldier-style uniform?
8 A. These were military uniform.
9 Q. And were you required to get into the truck?
10 A. Yes. They told me to get into the truck.
11 Q. Were there already some people in the truck when you climbed
13 A. Yes. Some people were already there.
14 Q. Did you know any of the people who were already inside the truck?
15 A. Yes, yes. I knew them.
16 Q. And who were these people in the truck?
17 A. There was this family, I believe that their surname was Kljajic,
18 Anto, his wife, their son Miro, and their daughter.
19 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of this family?
20 A. Yes, I do know.
21 Q. What ethnicity was the family?
22 A. They are Croats, Catholics.
23 Q. After you climbed aboard the truck, where did the truck go to
25 A. It went into the first road, on the left, towards -- directed
1 towards a house.
2 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have minor question here. What kind of truck
3 are we talking about? You are using, "getting into the truck," and "get
4 aboard the truck." Was it an open truck or what kind of vehicle was it?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can explain it. That truck
6 -- well, I'll never forget it in my life. It wasn't a very big truck,
7 with a tarpaulin which only at the back end was opened. And within the
8 truck, there was no flooring, only benches on the sides.
9 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.
10 MS. REIDY:
11 Q. Do I understand you to say that you got into the back of the
12 truck, which is open, covered by a tarpaulin, and the family Kljajic
13 you've told us about were sitting on the benches, on the side of the
15 A. Yes, precisely.
16 Q. And so were you all under the tarpaulin in the back of the truck?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. After you'd left -- you described the vehicle leaving your
19 apartment block and it went towards another house. Whose house did it go
21 A. They stopped in front of the house -- allow me to remember --
22 Ruza Matic. But at this point, I'm not 100 per cent sure, but I believe
23 her name was Ruza Matic.
24 Q. Do you know this woman who was in the house, even if you're not
25 sure of her name now?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Of what ethnic background is she, if you know?
3 A. I do know. She was -- she is Croat and a Catholic.
4 Q. When they stopped in front of her house, was she required to join
5 you in the back of the truck?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was she alone or did she have any of her children with her -- or
8 any children with her?
9 A. She was with her young boy, her son.
10 Q. Thank you. Were these the last passengers you picked up or did
11 the truck continue to collect other people?
12 A. As far as I can recollect, we were the only ones there on that
14 Q. And where did that truck take the seven or eight of you who were
16 A. To the area in proximity of the secondary school.
17 Q. And did it stop near the secondary school?
18 A. Yes. It stopped at a police checkpoint.
19 Q. And did anything happen at this police checkpoint? Was anybody
20 taken off the truck?
21 A. Yes, yes. It did happen. They were removed from the truck.
22 Q. And who exactly were removed from the truck, if you can remember?
23 A. Mr. Kljajic and his son.
24 Q. Do you have any information as to where they were taken?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And what information did you have about their destination?
2 A. That they are being taken to the secondary school.
3 Q. And did you learn that they ended up in the secondary school
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you recall now how you learnt they'd been taken to the
7 secondary school?
8 A. I -- from the wife of Mr. Kljajic.
9 Q. Thank you. After this checkpoint and when the two men were
10 removed, where did the truck continue on to?
11 A. The truck continued in a direction which was unknown to me, and we
12 couldn't see anything.
13 Q. Was that because you were under the tarpaulin you couldn't see
14 exactly which -- along which route you were being taken? Is that what
15 you're saying?
16 A. Yes, precisely that.
17 Q. And where did the truck finally stop? Where was your final
18 destination in the truck?
19 A. The truck stopped at the checkpoint in Crkvina.
20 Q. Thank you. Crkvina is a village or an area outside of Bosanski
21 Samac town; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, there is in evidence a number of maps
24 with Crkvina marked on it so I don't intend to go through it with this
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
2 MS. REIDY:
3 Q. When you stopped at this checkpoint at Crkvina what happened?
4 Were you required to get off the truck?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And where were you taken after you dismounted from the truck?
7 A. To the stadium in Crkvina.
8 Q. When you say a stadium, do you mean a sports stadium?
9 A. Yes. It was a football ground.
10 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, perhaps at this point I could introduce
11 the third diagram which the witness gave instructions to draw up.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
13 MS. REIDY: It is a diagram with the ERN number 02199071, and it's
14 my understanding that the Bench were distributed their copies yesterday.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have it.
16 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
17 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, do you recognise the diagram which is on the
18 screen before you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is it a rough diagram of the sports stadium to which you said you
21 were taken to in Crkvina?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And it was drawn up following your instructions of the layout of
24 the place; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Perhaps, can I ask you to take the pointer and just point to the
2 shaded block on the right-hand corner with the "P" marked on it? Is that
3 where the checkpoint was, which you first said you stopped at?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That was the first checkpoint in Crkvina?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you then tell me where exactly, from the truck, you were
8 taken to it and where you had to dismount from the trucks?
9 A. In this direction.
10 Q. Thank you. And that you -- is that the entrance to the sports
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the big darkened area there on your left, that is an open air
14 sports pitch; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When you dismounted from the trucks, what could you see in the
17 sports field? Was it empty or were there already a lot of people there?
18 A. Yes, many, many people.
19 Q. Do you have a rough idea of how many people might have been there?
20 A. A few hundred.
21 Q. Thank you. Could you recognise any of these people or did you get
22 to know who these people were or what ethnicity the people were, more
24 A. Yes, yes. I managed.
25 Q. Could you tell us what ethnicity the people gathered in that
1 sports stadium were?
2 A. A few Muslim women, and the rest, Croats of Catholic faith.
3 Q. And these Muslim women, were they, to the best of your knowledge,
4 mainly Muslim women married to Catholic -- married to Croat men?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And were there just women there or were there women, children and
7 men gathered in this stadium?
8 A. Children, women, men, old people of all ages, of all ages.
9 Q. Thank you. Perhaps I could just get this document now marked for
10 the record.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number?
12 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P70 ID, Your Honours. Thank you.
13 MS. REIDY:
14 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, did you -- a few hundred of you who were
15 gathered there, did you spend the rest of that day outside in the air, in
16 the field of that sports stadium?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And did you find anybody that you recognised amongst the hundreds
19 gathered there?
20 A. Yes, yes, I did recognise.
21 Q. Did you find any of your relatives there?
22 A. Yes. My aunt, Mariska.
23 Q. Thank you. During the time that you were -- you and all the
24 others were kept in this field, did anybody, any soldiers, ever approach
25 the people gathered there and take personal belongings from them?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who was taking things away from the detainees?
3 A. Soldiers.
4 Q. And what sort of things were they taking from the detainees?
5 A. Everything they had with them.
6 Q. Documents, or was it primarily jewellery and perhaps what you
7 could call items of value?
8 A. All items of value: Gold, money, watches, exclusively items of
10 Q. Did this happen to everybody who was gathered or was it mainly
11 people gathered around the entrance to the stadium?
12 A. Those who were the closest.
13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. When you say, Mrs. Kapetanovic, that
14 what was taken was exclusively items of value, in the list you gave of
15 gold, money, watches, you didn't say one way or the other about ID,
16 identification documents, which Ms. Reidy had also asked you. Could you
17 answer directly on that point? Was your documentation also taken away or
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The documents were taken from us at
20 the first checkpoint at Samac, near the school, so that those who arrived
21 there didn't have documents on them.
22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
23 MS. REIDY:
24 Q. Did you have your identification documents with you when you left
25 the house?
1 A. No, no. I had nothing on me.
2 Q. So I take it, then, they couldn't have removed your identification
3 document basically from the fact that you didn't have one; is that
5 A. No, I didn't, not this time.
6 Q. Thank you. Did you spend the evening in the field or did you get
7 to enter or did you go inside to spend the night?
8 A. Before the night, the door was opened and we were allowed to enter
9 into this building called the centre.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. REIDY: Perhaps the witness could again be shown P70 ID and
12 she could explain what happened.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?
14 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, page 46, line 3, I think it's a
15 kind of mistake in transcript. Now it's P70, because there is a P730 ID,
16 but it's corrected now.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: It's P70 ID.
18 MR. PANTELIC: It's 730 number of the exhibit, which is actually
19 P70. Now it's okay. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy?
21 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
22 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, could you explain where you were taken on the
23 evening of the day that you were detained in this sports stadium? Explain
24 where they brought you in to spend the night.
25 A. Yes, I can. We entered through this door and the majority went in
1 that direction, and they settled in this area which I am now showing.
2 Women and small children went on the podium, and due to the big crowd, I
3 -- the crowdedness, I went into a smaller area, something like a locker
4 room or something similar, and I settled there.
5 Q. There is an "X" on that diagram. Is that where you took up
6 your position to spend the night?
7 A. Yes. It's a very small space between the door and the wall. And
8 when the door is opened, then I remained in the corner.
9 Q. Thank you. And did you go there by yourself or were you there
10 with your aunt who you had located in the football pitch earlier, the
11 sports pitch earlier?
12 A. I -- yes. More than one of us, a few of us, entered there, and it
13 included my aunt.
14 Q. Were you provided with anything to sleep on, a mattress or
15 blankets or anything?
16 A. No. I found a piece of cardboard.
17 Q. Thank you. Had you --
18 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a question. If we look at this picture,
19 are these darkened squares, are they open places or are they buildings?
20 These two, "bina" stage and the other one?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain it to you. This
22 square represents a wooden podium where the actors would have their
23 performances, and all of this represented an auditorium, an entirety, and
24 this area, from that side is closed and represents -- and this place
25 represents another part of the building which is within the building
2 JUDGE LINDHOLM: A further question: So this square in totality,
3 this with dark parts and light parts, that's a building, a covered
4 building with roof?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.
6 JUDGE LINDHOLM: So the crowd gathered in the sport field was
7 transferred into the entirety of this building in different parts?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only in the area which I will mark
9 for you.
10 JUDGE LINDHOLM: And it's a question of several hundred peoples
11 gathered within this space?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.
13 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, can we have some marking by the witness
15 to show the areas of the building where people -- the parts which were
16 occupied by the people from the stadium? Because it appears there is one
17 part where people were not moved to.
18 MS. REIDY: Absolutely.
19 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, perhaps you could take that red marker that's --
20 I believe it's with you on the ELMO, and could you again just outline,
21 with the red marker, the part of the building where you could all try to
22 find somewhere to rest that evening?
23 A. Certainly. The places marked with "X" and this red line are
24 the location where several hundred prisoners moved around and lived.
25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I have a question as to the amount of people.
1 Just to get this clear, Mrs. Kapetanovic, initially you responded to
2 Ms. Reidy on page 43, line 13, when she asked you to give us a rough idea
3 of how many people there might have been, your response was, "a few
4 hundred," but now, in response to Judge Lindholm's question, where he said
5 to you, "It's a question of several hundred people," and you said,
6 "Precisely so." Now, at least in the English language, there is a
7 difference between "few" and "several." I wonder if you could clarify it
8 by saying there were approximately, you know, 200, 300, whatever it was,
9 so that we have a sort of visualisation of it, if you can.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly. At any rate, there was
11 more than 300 people at the moment when we entered this enclosed area. At
12 the moment when we entered it, that's how many people were there.
13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
14 MS. REIDY:
15 Q. And perhaps just to clarify, you said that's how many there were
16 when you entered. Did other people join you in the stadium after you had
17 entered it? So did the number of people in the stadium increase by the
18 time you'd entered the centre at night?
19 A. All the time, more people were arriving.
20 Q. So again, just in the manner that Her Honour Judge Williams asked,
21 by the time you went into the sports and cultural centre, roughly how many
22 of you could you guess were trying to fit into that space?
23 A. They were crammed in like sardines, and up to 500 people could be
24 crammed in there.
25 Q. Thank you. Is that why you tried to find a little place behind
1 the door, because it was the only place you could find some room?
2 A. The crowd was huge, and the normal way led to the big hall. I
3 went right into the first room on the right, together with my aunt and
4 some other persons.
5 Q. And was that to avoid everybody squashing into the --
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, I think we have had enough of an
7 explanation of how the people were crammed into the building.
8 MS. REIDY: Okay.
9 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, during that day, had you received any food?
10 A. Yes. We received a slice of bread and a little piece of bacon.
11 Q. And had you had access to water during the day?
12 A. Nobody was worried about water on that day.
13 Q. But was any water distributed to you, if you'd wanted to have
14 something to drink?
15 A. There was no water on the stadium.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you have access to a toilet?
17 A. Yes. We found one toilet.
18 Q. Would you just again take the pointer and indicate on the map
19 where that single toilet was?
20 A. Certainly.
21 Q. That's a place in the diagram where a "T" is marked, is that it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And is that -- that's a toilet for one person, is it?
24 A. Yes. It was an outside toilet for just one person.
25 Q. And that was the only toilet available to you at that time?
1 A. It was not enough. We also used the areas that I will indicate
2 right now.
3 Q. Perhaps you could just take again the pen and mark a "T" number
4 "2" or something, just where you've marked?
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think "T2" will do.
6 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
7 JUDGE MUMBA: But we need an explanation on T2. Was it an open
8 area? Was it a small building? Because the other "T" was actually a
10 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll pursue that right now.
11 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I think you can understand that we need some
12 clarification. First, just could you tell me, this place you've marked,
13 was it an actual toilet or was it a makeshift area that you designated for
14 use as a toilet?
15 A. What I have to explain at this moment is not very nice, but I will
16 try to be very mild. This was an area, it was not closed, this was an
17 area where garbage was left, and there was a lot of human feces. There
18 were many things there that were not very nice, and we had to go and squat
19 there, more people at a time. I apologise to Your Honours, but that's
20 simply what the truth is. I would also like to add that a guard was also
21 present there.
22 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me --
23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I wonder whether you could just give one further
24 explanation. Where you've indicated the T2, was that area being used when
25 you were contained in the soccer field? And were you, therefore, let out
1 of the soccer field with a guard to go to the T2 place? And then I have
2 another question, which is: When you were in the building, the sports
3 centre, for the night, were there other toilet facilities inside the
4 building for use during the night-time?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will answer as follows. In the
6 building itself or in the area that we were allowed to use, there were no
7 toilet facilities. During the day, we had the right to access both toilet
8 1 and toilet 2. During the night, it didn't even occur to the craziest
9 person that they should go to any of the toilet facilities. People
10 relieved themselves where they were lying. I do apologise, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: There is no need to apologise, Mrs. Kapetanovic.
13 This evidence is important for this case because the Trial Chamber would
14 like to know how such a large crowd of people were looked after wherever
15 they were detained. So it is important that you give these details.
16 MS. REIDY:
17 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, just one more question on this subject. This
18 area designated for use as a toilet, what you've marked now on the map as
19 T2, was that available from the very first day when you were brought into
20 the stadium or was this an area designated in the days that followed your
21 initial detention or was it set up -- was it already there when you were
22 brought in?
23 A. On the first day, I didn't use any toilet facilities. I think
24 that nobody else used them either, out of fear. We were just sitting
25 wherever we found ourselves.
1 Q. And so do I understand that the second area you designated for use
2 of toilet after it became clear that the regular outdoor toilet was not
3 going to be sufficient to cope with the numbers of people who were being
4 detained? Is that what happened?
5 A. That's exactly right.
6 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a question. Just a question of -- about
7 hygiene. When using toilet 1, which was a real toilet, were you supplied
8 with toilet paper or anything like that? And Question No. 2: When using
9 what you call toilet 2, although it was no toilet, were you supplied with
10 any kind of tissues or toilet paper or anything like that?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What -- I would like you to imagine
12 what I'm going to tell you. This, I'm referring to the toilet number 1
13 now. This was a very small room made of brick and there was a hole in the
14 ground. It was a type of latrine. And two planks that used to be a door
15 could not obscure the entire view of the toilet, so if somebody entered
16 the toilet, these people sitting on this entire area here could see the
17 person in the toilet. When you were standing, when you were trying to
18 stand between this hole, there was really no where you could stand, and
19 you can imagine what our feet looked like. Your Honour, there was no such
20 thing as toilet paper there. There was not even enough drinking water,
21 let alone toilet paper, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.
23 MS. REIDY:
24 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I'd like now to continue with what happened
25 after all the detainees were moved inside to the centre. You've already
1 explained where you spent the night. Did anything happen during that
2 first night or was it uneventful?
3 A. When we all entered the room, all the doors behind us were closed.
4 The centre had no electricity so we found ourselves in pitch darkness.
5 During the night, I can't exactly remember when exactly it was at this
6 moment, but you could hear women crying; you could hear noise and
7 shoutings. It was very, very unpleasant to hear all these things. A lot
8 of stuff happened during this night.
9 Q. Was there something in particular that caused these women to cry
10 or that caused this particular shouting?
11 A. Certainly. What was going on in the big room, which I'm going to
12 indicate to you right now, was not unknown to us, but I do know with
13 certainty what was going on in my room. Armed people came and they had a
14 flashlight, and they were asking for men. The only man who was in the
15 small room was the son, I think he was ten years old, the son of Mrs. Ruza
16 Matic. They wanted to take him away from his mother and she started to
17 cry, and she said that he was still just a boy, a child. After a lot of
18 discussion, they left the child and left. That's what I saw that night.
19 Q. Thank you. Were there any other men in the room that you had
20 chosen to sleep in?
21 A. In the room that I slept in, there were no other men, but in the
22 larger room, yes, there were other men there.
23 Q. And do you know what happened to the men in the larger room that
25 A. I found out the next morning.
1 Q. And what did you learn?
2 A. In this large room, only women, children and some very old people
3 remained. All the men had been taken away into an unknown direction.
4 Furthermore, the men that were being taken out of the rooms were beaten.
5 That's what their wives said.
6 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me -- their wives told you that they
7 had been beaten. Do you know if they were beaten in front of their wives
8 and children as they were taken away or could they hear shouts or sounds
9 of people being beaten once the men had been removed from the area of
11 A. They were beaten right by the entrance. They were lined up and
12 beaten there.
13 Q. Perhaps you could again just assist us by showing us on the
14 diagram where you were told the men were lined up and beaten.
15 A. Certainly. This is the entrance through which they would be taken
16 out. This is where they were lined up and then driven away.
17 Q. Perhaps just for the record, you could take a -- another marker,
18 another colour marker, perhaps the green one or the blue one - that's fine
19 - and just mark it with a "Y" perhaps where they were -- an arrow, to
20 indicate where they were lined up.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you. Now, as you were in the other room, you testified that
23 you couldn't see what was going on but you could hear all this noise and
24 commotion that night, could you?
25 A. Certainly. You could hear it from a great distance. It was that
2 Q. So in the morning, when you woke up, I take it there were just
3 women and children and some elderly persons left?
4 A. That's exactly right.
5 Q. Did you spend that second day inside the centre or were you again
6 taken out into the field?
7 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me, I have a question here. Ms. Reidy,
8 you spoke about "woke up in the morning."
9 Did you sleep at all during that night?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that night, nobody
12 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. When morning arrived, then, is probably a better way of phrasing
14 my question, what happened? Did you -- were you taken out again or did
15 you leave the room that you'd been sleeping in and go into the larger
16 room, or how did you find out what had happened in the other room?
17 A. When it dawned, we could see, first of all, where we were, and
18 second of all, I had the opportunity to enter the larger room. There I
19 heard from the women who had spent the night there what had happened
20 there. We were allowed to move around this room.
21 Q. And did you stay inside during the day or were you again taken out
22 to the field?
23 A. In the hours before noon, the guards came and opened the door.
24 I'm going to indicate which door. This door here. And they let us go to
25 the football field again.
1 Q. Perhaps again, just so we have clarity of the record, if there is
2 a smaller pen there, you could put a number 1 beside that entrance which
3 is the entrance you used to go in and out of the sports pitch.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you. During the second day, were you kept -- did you spend
6 the whole day of the second day in the sports field?
7 A. Yes. We spent the whole day in this field.
8 Q. Did you receive food?
9 A. Again, during the afternoon, they brought us a slice of bread and
10 a little piece of bacon.
11 Q. Did they provide you with drinking water?
12 A. They allowed us -- actually, they allowed some women to go fetch
13 water but they were -- they had guards going with them.
14 Q. Again on the diagram, could you just point out to us where the
15 women went to collect the water from?
16 A. Here.
17 Q. That's the circle with the "W" in it, is it?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. And it's a well from which they collect water; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, something like that.
21 Q. So they would go with armed guard, collect some water and bring it
22 back to the people in the stadium; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. With the men removed --
25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Ms. Reidy. Still on this same
1 question or issue of food and drink, you had mentioned that there were
2 babies and young children, including the 7 year old boy. Were the
3 children given anything extra or was their ration the same as for the
4 adult persons?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was nothing extra for them,
6 only bread and bacon was unloaded, and that was all.
7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
8 MS. REIDY:
9 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I'm just going to ask if you could give us some
10 idea of numbers, how many people were now left, since the men had been
11 taken away the night before.
12 A. I think there were a little bit under 300 persons there. That's
13 what I found out later.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MS. REIDY: If Your Honours please, I'll come to how she found out
16 the numbers later when we arrive at that chronologically.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
18 MS. REIDY:
19 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I take it on this day, did you begin to use the
20 makeshift toilet, the place you --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Is the usher still required, Ms. Reidy?
22 MS. REIDY: No, Your Honour. I think that for the moment, the
23 usher can sit down. I'm sorry.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
25 MS. REIDY:
1 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, you did testify that in the first day people
2 were scared and didn't want to go to the -- go to any of the toilet
3 facilities, but on the second day, is this when you began also to use this
4 designated area of a makeshift toilet, the place you marked as T2?
5 A. Yes. We simply had to go somewhere.
6 Q. And I think you said you were always accompanied by a guard when
7 you went; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were the people guarding you armed guards, or the people armed
10 guarding you in the stadium throughout the day?
11 A. Yes. I will show their direction of their movement.
12 MS. REIDY: Would Your Honours like that marked for the record?
13 JUDGE MUMBA: No, I mean, simply describing that they were moving
14 all around the area of the pitch and the building.
15 MS. REIDY: I think the record can reflect that there were
16 soldiers all around the circumference of the area.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
18 MS. REIDY:
19 Q. The second night, did you also spend that inside, in the centre?
20 A. Yes. In the evening, again, the doors were opened, and now
21 everybody took his own -- occupied his own place.
22 Q. By this time, had anyone told you, given you an explanation as to
23 you were being detained?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Was the second night in the sports centre, was it a relatively
1 peaceful night?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Then on the third day, I understand that something happened.
4 Could you tell us, on the third day, did you decide to react to the
5 conditions in which you were being detained?
6 A. Yes. On the third day, I decided to do something, not only for
7 myself but for everybody.
8 Q. So could you explain the third day, was this in the morning of the
9 third day or later on, on the third day? When did you decide that perhaps
10 the time had come to do something?
11 A. It was in the morning hours, before leaving the area, before going
12 to the football pitch.
13 Q. And I'm going to get to what action you took, but what made you
14 decide that you were going to do something?
15 A. Please, do understand how we -- what the stench was coming from us
16 after only three days. People were becoming -- getting sick. It was --
17 the situation with the children was critical, and we were asking ourselves
18 why were we here and how long shall we be there, and what our fate will
19 be? And everybody had practically the same questions.
20 Q. Just to confirm, by the third day, already some of the children
21 amongst you were sick?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So what did you decide to do on the morning of the third day that
24 you'd been detained?
25 A. I availed myself of the fact that the guards were in the big room.
1 I stood -- placed on a big desk, a smaller one and a chair. Then I banged
2 with my foot, and I asked everybody for a bit of attention.
3 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, could you -- a lot of information -- perhaps
4 first on the diagram, you could just show us where you had these tables
5 placed upon which you stood?
6 A. Certainly.
7 Q. Thank you. If you have the pen accessible to you, could you just
8 put a 2 on that location?
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Thank you. So you had put up this makeshift platform for
11 yourself. Did any of the guards try to stop you when you assembled this?
12 A. It was a total shock. They were just looking, staring at me.
13 Q. So what happened after you asked for silence?
14 A. I said that I'm addressing all detainees and that I beg them to
15 follow my instructions, instructions which consisted of the following:
16 Firstly, that every person should attempt to clean the area where he was
17 -- the person was living. Secondly, that no one should speak to the
18 guards or those who enter at night. I also asked them for total
19 discipline. And I asked the guards to bring us someone with whom we could
20 talk, negotiate. I asked for the Red Cross, the local Red Cross, the
21 International Red Cross. I asked for the then-representatives of the
22 UNPROFOR. I asked for somebody who -- the person who was standing behind
23 the order and who signed the order for our arrest.
24 Q. When you said you asked the guards to bring someone you could talk
25 with and for various representatives, what was the reaction of the guards?
1 A. They were shocked and went out.
2 Q. Did all of them leave or did just one or two of the guards leave
3 the room?
4 A. Guards remained at certain points within this big hall.
5 Q. Did the guards bring you someone to talk with, that you had
6 requested -- as you'd requested?
7 A. After some time elapsed, and they brought in people into this big
8 hall where -- which I did not leave, and these were the following: the
9 representative of the Red Cross, for whom I believe was from Crkvina, and
10 also Mr. Ranko Popovic, who addressed me.
11 Q. To clarify, this person from the Red Cross you believe was from
12 Crkvina, I take it to mean it was from a local Red Cross branch, not the
13 International Red Cross from Geneva?
14 A. Absolutely so, the representative of the local Red Cross.
15 Q. Thank you. Now you said that Mr. Ranko Popovic addressed you. Is
16 Mr. Ranko Popovic a civilian or was he a soldier, or who was he?
17 A. He was in uniform, and the other gentleman was in civilian
19 Q. Was Mr. Popovic armed?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Now what exactly did Mr. Popovic say to you when he
22 was brought into this big room?
23 A. He said to me that he cannot bring in anyone of those
24 representatives that I requested. He also told me that we were there due
25 to war circumstances, and that he didn't know how long we would be staying
1 there. It all depended on the war in the field.
2 Q. Did you -- were you given any idea what position Mr. Popovic held
3 so that he was the one who was able to give you this information?
4 A. Personally, he did not represent his function but he was a
5 superior, that is how others who turned to him. Obviously, he had a
6 function in these closed premises which I term as a camp.
7 Q. Thank you. After Mr. Popovic had told you that you'd been
8 detained because of the war circumstances and he didn't know how long
9 you'd be detained, did you ask him to provide you with any other
11 A. Certainly. I told him that we have problems with the small
12 children, that we have also some very sick old people, who were bedridden.
13 I asked for any type of food so that we'd be able to feed all who were
14 present there. I also begged that we be allowed to have the toilet
15 cleaned - and I'm referring to T1 - and that we be allowed any type of
16 cooking whatsoever.
17 Q. And what was the response to these requests?
18 A. He answered that he would see what he could do, and then he left.
19 Q. You mentioned that you told him that you had some sick old people
20 and children?
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, do not repeat. Just go ahead and ask the
22 next question for whatever happened next.
23 MS. REIDY:
24 Q. Okay. Did any medical people come to the centre to see these sick
25 people and sick children?
1 A. No, never.
2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, what did the person from the Red Cross
3 do? You mentioned he came in but you didn't mention what he actually did.
4 Did he speak to people? Did he -- well, in any event, maybe you can tell
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly. He was a civilian who
7 listened to this dialogue between me and Mr. Popovic, and together with
8 Mr. Popovic, he exited, he left. They said that they would see.
9 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a further question, a follow-up question.
10 Did the representative of the local Red Cross inspect the premises and the
11 conditions there?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He was standing at the door
13 where we were having this discussion. I can show you the location on this
14 diagram. He was standing inside, close to the door, without any movement
15 along this hall or around it.
16 JUDGE LINDHOLM: So he didn't inspect the toilet 1 and the
17 so-called toilet 2, or any other places in the camp?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never. No one ever inspected
20 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.
21 MS. REIDY:
22 Q. Did you receive any further food after Mr. Popovic and the
23 representative of the Red Cross had left?
24 A. Later, the representatives of the Red Cross did bring in, on a
25 temporary basis, a big pot in which we could cook.
1 Q. This was just a simple pot, was it? Not a stove or something?
2 Just a plain, ordinary pot; is that correct?
3 A. Yes. And the first moment, at the improvised toilet number 2, we
4 found some old bricks which we placed one on top of another. On that, we
5 placed the pot, poured some water. And we were lucky to find a chicken
6 which was brought in by a detainee who was arrested while he was going to
7 the market. So we slaughtered this hen and we placed it in the pot to
8 cook it. As we were there already three days, I went to check the area
9 around the goal gate, and I found two eggs, and it was this, my first
10 strange lunch that I had as a detainee. What we received, we distributed
11 for the -- gave it to the children, but regrettably, they all acquired
12 diarrhoea from this.
13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just one thing: So the Red Cross -- if I
14 understand correctly, the Red Cross provided a cooking pot but they didn't
15 provide any food to be cooked. You had to -- you were just lucky that the
16 man had the chicken and you found the eggs. So for almost 300 people,
17 there was a pot but no food, is that -- food to cook? Is that correct?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Unfortunately, it was
19 precisely so. The small amount of food went for the children. After they
20 saw that I persisted and that I would demanding more for these poor
21 people, they allowed to bring in a stove with a very big pot, and on that
22 day, they brought in also some food in order to cook for those who would
23 be then lucky enough to have something to eat. I don't know how I could
24 conjure it up for you, this culinary specialty and my culinary abilities.
25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And just one last thing concerning that answer.
1 You mentioned "they" allowed a stove to be brought in, and also "they"
2 brought in some food. Who is the "they"? Is the "they" the guards and
3 Mr. Popovic? And also, who brought the food in? Was that the Red Cross
4 or was it somebody else?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About all this which was brought in
6 was brought in by the guards on this -- and Ranko Popovic and the man from
7 the Red Cross saw to it that it was brought in. I had to sign, when the
8 pots were being handed to us, I had to sign a receipt for this inventory.
9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
10 MS. REIDY:
11 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, could you just turn to the diagram again, P70?
12 It's still on the right on the ELMO. And could you just point out to us
13 where you set up this temporary cooking area?
14 A. Certainly.
15 Q. That circle marked with a "K" is where you had set up this
16 makeshift kitchen?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. You've explained -- did you also request that some of
19 the women who were detained be allowed back to their villages to take
20 whatever food they had and bring it back to the sports centre?
21 A. Yes. In view of the shortage of foodstuff, I thought that this
22 was the only logical solution.
23 Q. And was that permitted?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did armed guards take the women to their villages and bring them
2 A. Yes. In a truck, they took the women from Hasici, from Tisina and
3 from Zasavica. They took them to their villages and, under guard, they
4 were then returned.
5 Q. Was the food you had available to you then, the chicken and eggs,
6 this food which the women had brought back, was this the only food
7 available to you or had the Red Cross brought extra food?
8 A. The most important item was the milk for the children. Women
9 succeeded in milking the cows and to bring it back.
10 Q. So the women who had been taken to the villages were able to bring
11 back some milk for the children; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did the Red Cross deliver foodstuffs to you beyond the pots you've
14 already described or was your food source, just your food source,
15 dependent on what you found in the fields and what these women were able
16 to bring back from the villages?
17 A. They would give us only bread.
18 Q. Did you also receive anything to -- for sleeping on, blankets,
20 A. The women succeeded in bringing back some blankets.
21 Q. Thank you. Were there enough blankets for all 300 or so of you
22 gathered there?
23 A. No.
24 Q. How many days did these sort of conditions exist for, when you
25 were able to do some cooking on the makeshift kitchen?
1 A. I believe -- well, the days were like eternity. We counted the
2 nights. It must have been about a week.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, during this week, did you spend every evening
4 inside in the centre?
5 A. Yes, always.
6 Q. At any stage, during those nights, were you taken to meet
8 A. They would go into the big hall to meet us.
9 Q. I'm sorry, you said "they." Who is "they" would go into the big
11 A. Personally, I did not see them, but these were uniformed persons
12 who, at night, would enter forcibly through this door.
13 Q. That's the door near the number 2?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you said you didn't see this personally but what did you learn
16 that these people came in to do?
17 A. Because of the women who were detained in that area.
18 Q. What does that mean?
19 A. It means that they would take them out as the need be.
20 Q. And you heard this from other detainees?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did they ever give any detail as to what happened or did you just
23 hear that women were being removed at night from that room, from that big
25 A. I was told that, at night, women would be removed.
1 Q. And were you told what would happen to them after they'd been
2 removed or people would just leave it at that?
3 A. For each and every one of them was ashamed to say what.
4 Q. Were you -- at one stage during your detention, were you taken
5 from the place where you used to sleep at night and brought to meet some
6 Serb soldiers?
7 A. Yes, I was.
8 Q. Roughly how many nights after the third day did this happen, if
9 you can recall now?
10 A. I believe that it was my sixth day of detention.
11 MS. REIDY: I see it's just approaching 12.30. I don't know if
12 you want me to pause here.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will take a break for 20 minutes and come
14 back at 12.50.
15 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution can proceed. Ms. Reidy, we will
18 have to stop the witness some 15 minutes before time. We have some issue
19 which we must discuss in closed session.
20 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour. So that's until 1.30; is that
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
23 MS. REIDY: Okay.
24 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I want you now to explain to the Chamber the
25 incident one evening where you were taken to meet some Serb soldiers. Did
1 someone come to take you from your place where you had -- where you were
3 A. Yes. One of the guards came, who took me out of the room in which
4 I had been up to that point.
5 Q. And where did he take you?
6 A. I would like to show it.
7 MS. REIDY: I see the map has been removed. If the witness could
8 be shown P70.
9 A. As I said, that night, at some point, a guard with the last name
10 of Popovic, in full military gear, came, and there were other guards with
11 him, even though he was the one that took me away. When he came, he told
12 me to get up and to follow him. I asked, "Where to?" En route to where
13 he was taking me, he said to me that he was taking me to where my role for
14 many can be a matter of life or death. At that time, I didn't know what
15 he meant.
16 While he was taking me, all I could hear was prayers of women, and
17 I will show you what direction we were heading. From the location where I
18 lay, he took me out through this door, took me through this narrow
19 hallway. We entered the big hall. We went downstairs. You could hear
20 this prayer along this whole route. He took me out through this door. We
21 went out. Nothing could be seen. You could just hear rattling of the
22 guards' weapons, and I noticed their shadows in this area here. He took
23 me along this route to this door here, and then he let me enter this
24 building that is marked here with the dark shading. He took me up the
25 stairs to a hall. From this hall, he took me to a big room for
1 conferences or sessions.
2 Your Honours, this was the first time in my life that I had been
3 in these offices, and that was also the last time that I was there.
4 MS. REIDY:
5 Q. Thank you. Could I just ask you to mark with a number 3 the
6 entrance and place to which you were brought, where you entered and where
7 you were taken upstairs, just so we have it permanently on the record?
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Thank you. One other matter. When you said you were taken from
10 your room, you were led through the narrow hallway and downstairs. By
11 "downstairs," do you simply mean you came down from the podium or the
12 steps, you didn't actually go downstairs to a basement; is that right?
13 A. That's exactly right. We just went downstairs from this podium.
14 Q. Who was upstairs in this hallway or conference room that you were
15 taken to?
16 A. Upstairs, Ranko Popovic waited for me, and another man in uniform.
17 I know he was tall and blond but I cannot remember his name. And there, I
18 had the opportunity to see for the first time something like that. This
19 was the first time in my life that I saw a man wearing a fur hat who
20 introduced himself as a Vojvoda, a duke.
21 Q. This man who introduced himself as a duke, did he explain where he
22 was from or what he was doing at the sports centre?
23 A. Yes. He told me his name was Vojvoda - that's how everybody
24 addressed him - and that he was from Kragujevac. I noticed from his
25 accent that he was from central Serbia. Because of the fur hat and the
1 kokarde on the fur hat, I noticed that he was different from the other
2 guards with whom I had the opportunity, or the misfortune, to meet up
3 until that point. He had a huge knife, which was located by his boots, in
4 the -- by the right arm, and his boots. He had bloodshot eyes. He was
5 extremely tall. He said to me that his role in all of this was very
6 important and that he had huge responsibilities and authorisation as well.
7 Q. Did he ask you anything about the conditions in which you were
8 detained or what had happened to the detainees?
9 A. He didn't ask me anything about the conditions that we were living
10 in. He was interested in an entirely different matter.
11 Q. What was he interested in?
12 A. He was interested in the behaviour of the soldiers that, while at
13 the time of our arrest, were taking away valuables from those that were
15 Q. And he questioned you about this incident, did he?
16 A. Yes. His interrogation was reduced to this event. He said that
17 his army was honourable and that he would not allow any kind of robbing in
18 his military, and he said that his soldiers had to be punished by death if
19 they did such a thing. It was then that I understood what Milan Popovic's
20 words meant, and he said that the life and death of many people depended
21 on me. Milan Popovic was the man who took me to see Vojvoda.
22 Q. What did you tell this Vojvoda?
23 A. I was extremely calm at that moment. I said that I understood
24 that people who might have conducted themselves in such a way, and that I
25 understood that they probably also lost somebody in this war, and I asked
1 him to look at the situation from that perspective, that he should not
2 punish his soldiers by death because of their temporary emotions. Your
3 Honours, you can imagine how difficult it was for me to utter these words.
4 I was defending somebody that I was actually -- that I should have
5 been attacking.
6 Q. After you'd answered the Vojvoda in this manner, what happened
7 next between the two of you?
8 A. He said to me, "Do you know, Jelena, that the Ustashas are
9 slaughtering Serbian children and putting their heads into their mother's
10 laps?" I said that I was not aware of such an act, and that I hoped that
11 it wasn't true, but if it was, then this kind of thing should be
12 condemned. However, that kind of action was not the fault of the soldiers
13 and the people that were in this area.
14 Q. Did you ask him to take any action on behalf of these sick
15 children who were still with you at the centre?
16 A. Our conversation was very long that night. I managed to turn a
17 wild animal into a calm man, and I asked him politely to help the children
18 that on that sixth day really looked terrible. I asked him if there was
19 any possibility to bring any kind of a doctor and to administer help. He
20 thought about it for a while and then he said that he agreed -- was
21 agreeing to a compromise.
22 Q. And what compromise was that?
23 A. He said to me that he would allow the children that were the most
24 sick to leave that area and to go to the nearest hospital, escorted by his
25 men, under condition that my life be at any moment at their disposal. He
1 also said to me that I would go with them but escorted by heavy guards,
2 and in case of any kind of an incident or, God forbid, of an attack from
3 the opposing side, I would be killed. I was happy that such a man showed
4 some form of compassion, despite the fact that my life could have been the
6 Q. Were the children taken to a hospital?
7 A. Yes. They put me in a vehicle, and the leader inside my vehicle
8 was the police officer that followed me and took me to see Vojvoda, and I
9 later found out that 12 children were put into the other vehicles. And we
10 left towards the direction that at the time was unknown to me.
11 Q. Did this happen directly after you had spoken with this Vojvoda or
12 at a later time?
13 A. This happened immediately after our conversation, during the same
15 Q. Where did the vehicles that you and the children were in
16 eventually go to?
17 A. Unfortunately, I talked a lot and I was very brazen, and I let it
18 slip out that I knew which direction we were being led to because we were
19 going fishing there very frequently. This is -- this was the road towards
20 Pisari. We came to a private house with a huge yard, and I assume that
21 the people that live in that house were notified by phone. After I left
22 the car, a guard was waiting for me, and a young doctor came out who did
23 not say his name, but he said he was from Doboj. And he said that this
24 was a makeshift hospital for the wounded, but not a place for children.
25 But despite that, he still admitted our children.
1 Q. Did the children stay there or were they given some treatment and
2 were they then returned to the sports centre in Crkvina?
3 A. The children were just examined at that time. They were given the
4 most basic medical treatment, some medication. And we were all returned
5 together to our previous residence. On the way back, I was told that the
6 hospital had to be transferred to another location, given the fact that I
7 had recognised where it was. So that for security purposes, they had to
8 move it.
9 Q. When you returned that night, did you go back to your -- the usual
10 place where you slept?
11 A. Yes. It was already dawn, and it was impossible to even think
12 about going to sleep.
13 Q. Was this the only time that you had an occasion to meet this
15 A. No. This was not the only occasion.
16 Q. Did you meet him again while you were detained in Crkvina?
17 A. Yes. We met again. He came to find me in the room under number
19 Q. And was this for another meeting or was it for some other purpose?
20 A. He came to see whether everything was all right, and he said that
21 I had a visitor.
22 Q. And who was that visitor?
23 A. That was my boyfriend, Esref Kapetanovic.
24 Q. Did he allow you to meet with Esref?
25 A. He gave me 15 minutes, and that was all.
1 Q. During the 15 minutes you were with Esref Kapetanovic, did he tell
2 you whether he'd tried to make any contact with any of the defendants?
3 A. Certainly.
4 Q. Who had he tried to make contact with?
5 A. He said to me that he went to the apartment of my neighbour,
6 Mr. Simo Zaric.
7 Q. And what did he say had happened between him and Simo Zaric?
8 A. He went to ask Simo to intervene in order that I would be let free
9 from that camp.
10 Q. And how did Mr. Zaric respond?
11 A. That he can do nothing, that it is not in his competence.
12 Q. Mr. Zaric knew that people were being held in Crkvina, did he?
13 A. Certainly.
14 Q. Did Esref bring anything to you or did you just speak with him?
15 A. Yes. He brought a sleeping bag and a track suit.
16 Q. After this visit, approximately how many more days or nights did
17 you spend in that centre?
18 A. At this point in time, I'm not quite sure, but I do know that I
19 slept another -- we spent another day or two there.
20 Q. Thank you. After about two days, approximately, you were released
21 from the sports centre in Crkvina; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How were you told that you were being released from the sports
25 A. It must have been around noon on that day, I don't know exactly
1 the day or the time, although there was some commotion and some trucks
2 arrived, and we were told that Crkvina must be evacuated. We were told
3 that all women residents of Samac may go home and all of those who were
4 brought in from neighbouring villages would have to go to Zasavica.
5 Q. Who came to tell you this information, if you can remember?
6 A. Well, at the head of that operation was Mr. Savo Cancar.
7 Q. Could I just seek a clarification? Was it a Savo Cancar or a
8 Savo Cancarevic?
9 A. I believe that you're right, that his surname is Cancarevic.
10 Q. Did you know Mr. Cancarevic from prior to your detention in
12 A. Yes, extremely well.
13 Q. Was he from Bosanski Samac?
14 A. No. He was not from Bosanski Samac, but he worked in the police
15 station as a policeman, and for years we were cooperating.
16 Q. So the police station in Bosanski Samac?
17 A. Yes, yes, in the police station of Bosanski Samac.
18 Q. Were you then put on a truck and taken back to Bosanski Samac
20 A. They were taken in two rounds. I wanted to see that nobody got
21 lost or was left behind. I ran, and when I came, the first group was
22 already -- had already departed. When I understood that many are not
23 being released, I asked Mr. Cancarevic, why are they being taken to
24 Zasavica, why aren't they releasing them and letting them go home, as was
25 our case from Samac.
1 Q. And what did Mr. Cancarevic tell you, if anything?
2 A. Yes. He was quite clear. He took a pistol and he said, "I'm fed
3 up with you paramilitaries." Luckily, the driver of the truck was close
4 to him, moved his hand, and somebody who was present then helped me into
5 the truck.
6 Q. So Mr. Cancarevic didn't offer you an explanation as to why they
7 were being taken to Zasavica, he just expressed his anger at you by
8 pointing his pistol at you; is that correct?
9 A. Precisely that.
10 Q. When this -- when the driver helped you on to the truck, did the
11 truck then take you back to your apartment in Bosanski Samac town?
12 A. The moment I was put on the truck, I was given a pill to calm
13 down, and I know that then I was got off in the street, Edvard Kardelj
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MS. REIDY: Could I ask that the witness be shown a document? The
17 document is document C40 from the Prosecution's exhibit list. I've
18 distributed conies to Defence counsel and I have copies here for the
19 Bench. I'm not leaving this topic, I just -- these are for the Bench, and
20 if this copy which is highlighted could be shown to the witness.
21 For the record, this document is a document dated the 15th of May,
22 1992. It's a document from the Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac
23 Crisis Staff, and it's a decision on the isolation of persons of Croat
24 nationality. We've provided the Bench with both a B/C/S copy and an
25 English translation.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
2 MS. REIDY: Thank you. Perhaps it could be marked before we
3 discuss it.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please?
5 THE REGISTRAR: It is P71 ID, Your Honours, and P71 ter ID. Thank
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
8 MS. REIDY:
9 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic --
10 MS. REIDY: Excuse me, could I ask the usher, perhaps the B/C/S
11 version could be put on the ELMO? I understand that's how the defendants
12 follow the trial.
13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Although, Ms. Reidy, if the copy that's being put
14 on the ELMO is as indistinct as the one we've been given, it's going to be
15 very hard to read it on the screen.
16 MS. REIDY: Absolutely, Your Honour. I appreciate that. I think
17 the copy that has been provided is the same; everybody's in the same
18 position. It was the quality of the copy that we were handed from -- I
19 think, in fact, it was one of the Defence counsel who originally in 1998
20 handed it over to the OTP. As you can see from the translation provided,
21 that the Translation Unit within the Tribunal were able -- have given it a
22 full translation. And I hope that the highlighting of it makes it
23 somewhat more clear, and I think it still may be of somewhat more use to
24 the Defence rather than the English, if that's -- okay.
25 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, maybe because it's difficult for you to read --
1 clearer for you to read from the actual document, could I just ask you to
2 read out, as best you can, the highlighted part in the middle of the
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?
5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I don't know, it's a general
6 objection to this. What is the relevance with this document and this
7 witness? This is another institution, another body. I mean maybe, and
8 probably, the Prosecution will have much more informed witnesses in this
9 case to discuss that document. It's just a principal objection that this
10 witness cannot give any kind of comments --
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, she hasn't yet been asked about this
13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, just in that case.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Why are you objecting?
15 MR. PANTELIC: Because my learned friend, Miss Reidy, started,
16 "Can you read the document?"
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Why don't you let the Prosecution go ahead? Sit
18 down, Mr. Pantelic, won't you?
19 MR. PANTELIC: Just to prevent possible --
20 MS. REIDY:
21 Q. Again, Mrs. Kapetanovic, you'll see there is a section highlighted
22 on the document, and it may be easier, more legible for you, if you can --
23 you can look at the document itself. Could you see if you could read that
24 paragraph that's highlighted out slowly into the record so that we all
25 know what the document is about?
1 A. Yes, I can. "Decision. With this decision, on the territory of
2 municipality of Serbian Bosanski Samac, all members of the Croatian --
3 Croat people are to be isolated and distributed on the vital facilities in
4 the town and the surroundings. The date, the 15th of May, 1992."
5 Q. Thank you. Could I ask you to look at the bottom part of it? And
6 is there any indication the source of this decision, either -- sorry. I
7 ask you to have a look at the document and if you can tell us what the
8 source, the people who made this decision are?
9 A. Yes, I can. It -- what one can observe, further below, the
10 stamp, "Bosanski Samac" and with the symbol of 4 S's, and it's clear that
11 the source -- what the source is, it is the 4th Detachment.
12 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I'm going to ask you to look to the top
13 left-hand corner. I'm afraid it's not highlighted. And above the date --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. There is the name of a body. Could you just tell us who that is?
16 A. The Serb Municipality of Bosanski Samac Crisis Staff. Just what I
17 said previously.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, have you seen this document before arriving in
19 The Hague?
20 A. No.
21 Q. But on or around the 15th of May, you were detained from your
22 apartment along with other persons of Croat nationality; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. The date is identical to that of what I have told you in my
25 Q. And in the time preceding the 15th of May, were you in fact
1 isolated with other persons of Croat nationality from Bosanski Samac and
2 from the vital facility -- and from villages around Bosanski Samac?
3 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour, to this form of question.
4 It cannot be used the form "isolated." The other wording would be proper.
5 It's a slightly leading question to this witness. Thank you.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah, it's a leading question, Ms. Reidy. If you
7 can rephrase it.
8 MS. REIDY:
9 Q. Were you, in the time period following the 15th of May, held
10 together with other persons of Croat nationality from the territory of
11 Bosanski Samac town and villages surrounding Bosanski Samac?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were you held in a particular facility against your will?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. At any stage whilst you were there, were you able to leave the
16 facility or return to your home?
17 A. No.
18 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I realise now it's half past.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
20 MS. REIDY: I can pick up on this tomorrow.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness will be allowed to leave the
22 courtroom. The evidence will be continued at a later stage.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE MUMBA: We will go into private session, please.
25 [Private session]
12 Pages 8985-8990 – redacted – private session
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
25 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
1 the 6th day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.