1 Monday, 10 June 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and
9 Simo Zaric.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we start, the Trial Chamber has observed that
11 the proceedings are starting late since we started the testimony of
12 Mr. Todorovic. And the Trial Chamber was informed by the registry that
13 the witness is normally brought in -- into the courtroom right on time,
14 but there appears to be in a problem in getting him into the courtroom so
15 that the proceedings can start at 9.00. I do hope that that problem will
16 be sorted out so that we can start on time.
17 Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
18 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours: Good morning. Just I would
19 like to inform this Trial Chamber that, through my colleagues, I obtained
20 the -- a list from the -- at that time in 1998 Mayor of Bosanski Samac and
21 so the Defence does not have the objection to the authenticity of the
22 following exhibits. These are, namely, P75, P77, P79, and P88 at that
23 time. The respective numbers are C11, C13, C25, and C38. And during the
24 course of examination-in-chief, I will give additional comments on the
25 following, because there are some other exhibits which will be introduced
1 and I want to clarify the transcript. Thank you.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. Thank you.
3 Confirmation with the Prosecution: These were already admitted
4 into evidence, haven't they?
5 MR. DI FAZIO: [Microphone not activated] Yes, yes.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: [Microphone not activated] Yes. I wonder if --
8 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Microphone.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
10 I wonder if Mr. Pantelic speaks for himself or all the Defence
11 when he made that comment.
12 MR. PANTELIC: I'm speaking on behalf of all Defence.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I notice that all the Defence counsels are in
15 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Just for the record. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
17 Yes. The Prosecution is continuing examination-in-chief.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
19 WITNESS: STEVAN TODOROVIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]
22 Q. Mr. Todorovic, I want to return to the topic that we were on last
23 Friday, and I want to put to you a passage from an interview conducted
24 with you on the 19th of January, 2001 and ask you if you maintain the
25 position there.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: For the benefit of Defence counsel, they will find
2 it at page 16 of that particular interview, 19th of January, 2001.
3 Q. It was again, of the investigators, Mr. Soldal, who was speaking
4 to you. He asked you this:
5 "Q. Do you know anything about involvement of
6 specialists or paramilitaries in the looting?
7 A. I said yesterday that there were 30 of them or so,
8 and each one of them took at least one passenger
9 vehicle. And I also know that Srecko Radovanovic,
10 'Debeli' had a small kiosk delivered to him
11 containing the coffee roasting machine.
12 Q. This acceptance of looting, it was accepted. Was it
13 a part of the salary for these paramilitaries?
14 A. Maybe in a way.
15 Q. Was it accepted by the Crisis Staff?
16 A. Tacitly, yes.
17 Q. So they gave their permission to loot, or did -- did
18 they just not do anything with it?
19 A. They did not do anything about it."
20 Now, the first question I want to ask you is: Do you maintain the
21 position that the Crisis Staff was aware of the paramilitaries being up to
22 this sort of activity?
23 A. [No interpretation]
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Did Your Honours get --
25 JUDGE MUMBA: We have no interpretation.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: No. No. I didn't get any either. I don't know
2 what the answer was. There must be a technical fault, I assume, in the --
3 in the booth.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, perhaps there's a technical problem.
5 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three. Your Honour, one, two, three.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
7 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we can hear you very faintly, I think.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I can hear clearly, if it's --
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we test again.
11 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we can hear you.
13 So may we have the answer repeated.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
15 Q. Mr. Todorovic, my question after I read that passage to you was
16 simply this: Do you maintain the position that the Crisis Staff was aware
17 of paramilitaries being up to that -- the sort of activity that you
18 described? Could you repeat your answer, because it didn't -- wasn't
19 translated from the booth.
20 A. Yes, the Crisis Staff was aware of that.
21 Q. When you say the specialists or paramilitaries took away a car,
22 what -- who were you referring to? Which grouping were you referring to,
23 the 50 who originally came to Batkusa or others who joined later?
24 A. When I said that, I meant a group of 30 men who had come from
1 Q. Are they the ones that were taken in -- brought in by Crni?
2 A. That's right. I meant them. And if I may, unrelated to this
3 question, if the Chamber would allow me a minute, if possible in closed
4 session, to ask a question which has to do with me. Of course, if that --
5 if I am allowed to do that. This morning, I filed a letter with the
6 Registry of this Tribunal.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: May I just say something very briefly about what
10 Mr. Todorovic has just raised?
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got no problem with him saying something to
13 you, as long as it's an administrative or procedural matter or something
14 of that nature, but if it concerns the evidence, then I would prefer to
15 take Mr. Todorovic to the areas that I -- I want to lead him on. But
16 I'll -- of course, the matter is entirely in the Chamber's hands.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Of course. I make no bones about that.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. May I -- the registry assistant approach the
20 Bench, please.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber has decided that since
24 Mr. Todorovic is a Prosecution witness, the proceedings will adjourn and
25 allow the Prosecution to speak to the witness just for that problem, so
1 that when the Trial Chamber resumes proceedings, the Prosecution will have
2 decided whether or not it's a matter which may affect the continuing
3 proceedings in this case.
4 So the Trial Chamber will adjourn for 20 minutes and allow
5 Mr. Di Fazio to approach the witness -- oh, I'm told 15 will be enough.
6 Yes. So we'll adjourn for 15 minutes and resume our proceedings at 9.40.
7 --- Break taken at 9.22 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 9.51 a.m.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. If Your Honours please, I'd like to raise a
11 matter with you. I'd like to do it in private session, if we could,
13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we go into private session.
14 [Private session]
12 Pages 9192-9201 – redacted – private session
9 --- Break taken at 10.32 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll go into open session.
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber has decided that the rest of the
14 evidence of the witness Mr. Stevan Todorovic will be received in closed
15 session. Mr. Todorovic is advised to approach the officer in charge of
16 the Detention Unit regarding his medication from now on.
17 The reasoning of the Chamber will be given in writing for the
18 decision to go into closed session. The proceedings will continue in
19 closed session.
20 Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
21 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, if this is a ruling, the Defence would
22 kindly ask to obtain a certification for the appeal -- to the Appeals
23 Chamber in accordance with the Rule 73, I believe (C), because the -- the
24 further testimony of this witness in closed session will violate the
25 rights of the accused enshrined in the relevant provisions in the Statute
1 and the UN Charter and European Convention for Human Rights, which
2 explicitly outlined the necessity and the principle of public -- of public
3 hearing and public trial. And therefore, given the fact that the
4 significant importance of the testimony of this witness is on two sides,
5 Prosecution as well as Defence, in the interest of justice, we as Defence,
6 we believe that the issue of the public hearing and the issue of the
7 certification is justified because, in light of Article 73 subparagraph
8 (d) and the paragraphs in subparagraph (d) -- subrule (d), paragraphs 1
9 and 2. That is the basis of Defence submission, Your Honours.
10 [Closed session]
12 Pages 9204-9250 – redacted – closed session
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
5 at 1.48 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
6 the 11th day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.