1 Monday, 1 July 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. You are still under solemn
11 declaration and the Prosecution will continue examination-in-chief.
12 WITNESS: JELENA KAPETANOVIC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. Just for the record, I would
15 like to advise the Bench that on Friday afternoon I did have contact with
16 this witness just to approach her and explain that the previous witness
17 was taking longer than anticipated, that she would not take the stand on
18 Friday afternoon and that we would recommence with her testimony on Monday
19 morning. So we didn't, of course, broach any topic relating to her
20 testimony, it was just to advise the witness of that and to welcome her
21 back to The Hague. But I would like the Bench to know that that contact
22 did take place.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Very well
24 Examined by Ms. Reidy: [Continued]
25 Q. Welcome back, Ms. Kapetanovic.
1 A. Thank you.
2 Q. Can you hear me?
3 A. Yes, I can hear you.
4 Q. When you were here in the Tribunal, you had testified about your
5 life in Bosanski Samac in April and May 1992, and you had testified to the
6 Chamber about a period of time you spent in detention in Crkvina, starting
7 on -- in and around the 15th of May, 1992. Do you recall giving that
9 A. Yes, I do recall it.
10 Q. When we broke with your testimony, you had explained to the
11 Chamber how you had been taken away from Crkvina in a truck, you had been
12 brought back to your house on Edvarda Kardelja Street, and you had been
13 deposited there. Do you recall that?
14 A. Yes, I remember that.
15 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I'd like to ask you questions now from that time
16 period on, from the time that you arrived back in your apartment on
17 Edvarda Kardelja Street. When you arrived back at your apartment, was
18 your then boyfriend waiting for you at the apartment?
19 A. Yes, he was in the apartment.
20 Q. What was the first thing you did when you returned to your
21 apartment, having been in detention?
22 A. First we improvised a bath, because I was fairly dirty, and I
23 hoped that I'd be able to relax in my own -- once back in my own
25 Q. And were you able to relax?
1 A. Well, regrettably, no. This joy lasted only two hours.
2 Q. What happened after approximately two hours after you had arrived
3 back in your flat?
4 A. Members of the 4th Detachment arrived, headed by Cakara. They
5 banged on the door. Normally, my husband let them in, and again they
6 repeated the procedure which existed before, looking and hunting for
7 automatic weapons from me, asking them from me and my husband.
8 Q. Thank you. You've mentioned one person called Cakara. This is a
9 nickname, is it?
10 A. Yes. Yes, it's a nickname. Cakara is from Samac, and throughout
11 that time, I was always mixing him up, Cakara and Caba, but Cakara's name
12 is Naser. So Naser came, but he has the nickname Cakara. He was leading
13 that group that entered my apartment.
14 Q. I understand you said they looked -- you said they were looking
15 for weapons. Did they find any weapons?
16 A. First they searched the entire apartment. They were very rough,
17 in view of the fact that in the apartment they found nothing. After that,
18 they said they would be looking by the floors. They already checked all
19 the apartments. They still had the attic to search.
20 Q. And did they then conduct a search on the attic?
21 A. Yes. This operation lasted quite some time. They removed the
22 insulation from the attic area, and when they didn't succeed in finding
23 anything, they set afire the attic.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to intervene. I heard, as
1 all -- I heard the witness say that all the apartments were already
2 searched [In English] already checked all the apartments.
3 [Interpretation] I would -- did they check all the apartments? Did they
4 search all the apartments or that all the apartments had already been
5 searched? What did the witness say?
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, clear that, please, with the witness.
7 MS. REIDY:
8 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I don't know if you followed that intervention.
9 Defence counsel would like some clarification as to what exactly the
10 members of the 4th Detachment, the men who came to your house, did in
11 respect of the other apartments. Did they search all the other apartments
12 or had the other apartments already all been searched, or what exactly did
13 they do?
14 A. They were exclusively located in my apartment. They were
15 searching exclusively my apartment. And as they didn't find anything
16 there, they went up to the last upper floor, where the attic was, and that
17 is what they searched. I was interested why only us, and they told us
18 that the other apartments had been searched. But what did they comprehend
19 and intend by that, that all the apartments were clean, I don't know, but
20 the question -- the open issue was my apartment, and I don't know what
21 they were looking for.
22 Q. So the men who searched your apartment told you that the other
23 apartments had previously been searched; is that correct, but they didn't
24 carry out a search in front of you?
25 A. Precisely so. They searched in front of me only my apartment,
1 completely, and that attic area in our entrance.
2 Q. Did they find anything in the attic area?
3 A. No. No. They didn't have anything to be -- there was nothing to
4 be found, and they didn't find it. We simply didn't have any weapons.
5 Q. Did anything else happen in the attic at this time when they were
6 searching the attic?
7 A. You can imagine the tension. I personally was afraid that maybe
8 somebody planted some weapons. In my previous statement, I mentioned that
9 my former boyfriend, present-day husband, was fit for military service,
10 and maybe they would plant it and in connection with him.
11 Q. Was the attic set fire to that day?
12 A. Yes. After this entire ceremony, the aggressive action, and out
13 of their bad mood, they set the cellar -- the attic afire with insulation
14 which ignites very quickly. Then I didn't do anything there. I was just
15 looking. And my husband attempted to put out the fire as quickly as
16 possible. So this is a building with 64 apartments.
17 Q. Ms. Kapetanovic, just for the record, the transcript in English
18 has a record of you saying that they set the cellar and then you changed
19 it to the attic on fire. If I'm correct, you didn't mention the cellar.
20 It's only the attic that was set on fire; is that right?
21 A. I've been speaking throughout about the attic area.
22 Q. After the attic was set on fire, did these members of the 4th
23 Detachment leave your apartment building?
24 A. Yes. They left the apartment building and also added that they
25 would be coming back again.
1 Q. Did you remain in your apartment building after this search?
2 A. No. At the very same moment, my boyfriend at the time collected
3 me and my dog and took me to the -- to a cellar in town.
4 Q. And this cellar, was it a private cellar belonging to someone's
6 A. Yes. Yes, it was a private house.
7 Q. And do I take it, then, you were taken there as a form of safety,
8 a safety measure, or for better protection for yourself?
9 A. Yes. My husband acted very quickly, spontaneously. I don't know
10 how he remembered to take me to a very specific house and into that cellar
11 of that house.
12 Q. How long did you stay in that cellar?
13 A. Well, as I recall, quite a long time. So it was the end of May,
14 and I returned to my apartment somewhere in July. I don't know -- I don't
15 recall the exact date.
16 Q. For some time, then, just over a month, was it?
17 A. Precisely so.
18 Q. Do you remember the family who owned this -- the name of the
19 family who owned this house where you took shelter?
20 A. Yes. The owner of the house, she was not present, but her son and
21 daughter were there. It was a family home of the family Bikic, mother --
22 I don't remember the mother's name. The daughter's name was Ismeta, and
23 the son was Adem Bikic.
24 Q. Was one of the families -- was one of the members of the family a
25 person called Dino Halilovic?
1 A. Yes. That was the son of Ismeta Halilovic, and I must add that
2 the Halilovic family lived in the same building as I did. And they called
3 it Dedo's family, Dedo the person, the man, was not there at the time.
4 Q. When you say they lived in the same building as you did, you're
5 now talking about 62 Edvarda Kardelja; is that correct?
6 A. Yes. Yes. Precisely so.
7 Q. Did your husband, Esref Kapetanovic, and this person Dino
8 Halilovic have to perform forced labour?
9 A. Yes. The two of them grew up together. They worked together in
10 the post office. And when they had to go and do forced labour, they went
11 there together.
12 Q. Did they have any choice in whether or not they went to perform
13 this force the labour?
14 A. No, no way. Who would want to go and do this type of forced
16 Q. What type of forced labour were they performing?
17 A. The two of them concretely worked in the Master company. That is
18 auto transporters. And in that company, my husband was working on the
19 maintenance, the repair of the vehicles, the cleaning of that company
20 premises, and all other difficult, heavy work, and it covered trucks.
21 Q. Did your husband have to perform this duty every day?
22 A. Yes. And in case the need arose, if the request was made, he went
23 and repaired telecommunications in the neighbouring villages, and that was
24 rather dangerous, because they were taken to the front lines to repair the
1 Q. Was your husband ever taken to locations where he was exposed to
2 firing from weapons?
3 A. Yes, it did happen that in order to repair a telecommunication
4 line, my husband would have to climb a pole, a pole of five, six metres,
5 or even more, and you can imagine what it was like. In the area of
6 Grebnice or Obudovac, a highly critical point, bullets were whistling over
7 their heads or past them.
8 Q. Did your husband ever receive any payment for the work that he was
9 required to do?
10 A. I believe that was a parody and that they laughed, yes. My
11 husband was paid by saying that the salary which he received after one
12 month, I could receive two eggs. So it was symbolic, or a parody.
13 Q. Could you -- was your husband given cash into his hand or was he
14 told he would get money, or how was this parody of a payment, as you
15 called it, made?
16 A. Yes. It was into his hand, without any document. He received the
17 salary in his hand.
18 Q. Could you -- if you recall at this moment, could you tell us
19 roughly how much that was?
20 A. Really, no, but I know that for that amount, we bought two eggs.
21 The inflation was very high. The dinar was in use, which was then changed
22 into Serbian dinars, but the value -- or -- the value I did get to know
23 quite well, the worth of this money.
24 Q. So do I understand correctly: Was it that from all the money that
25 he received for all the forced labour that he performed during his time in
1 Bosanski Samac, you were able to purchase two eggs for that amount.
2 A. Precisely so. For the entire amount, the entire amount that my
3 husband received for his work, from morning to night, at the end we did
4 buy in fact two eggs. Nothing else could be bought. That was the amount.
5 Q. Thank you. During this month in the cellar of a neighbourhood
6 house, how did you survive for food and water?
7 A. The electricity and water didn't -- were not supplied, but in the
8 neighbouring street, women had -- a woman had a pump and we took
9 cannisters. Eight of us lived in that house, together with my dog. We
10 came to that house from three other houses, so that the boys who could
11 enter the buildings, they went to our homes, our apartments. They would
12 take out what we had left there. So these were noodles, then meat, and as
13 there was no electricity, some food perished. Therefore, we lived on
15 Q. Thank you. You've testified that you did go back to your own
16 apartment. What caused you to leave this cellar and return to your own
18 A. I heard, namely, my husband told me, that the family who lived in
19 my entrance, that they are showing an interest in my apartment.
20 Q. Can you explain what you mean by the fact that one of the families
21 in your apartment block were showing an interest in your apartment?
22 A. Yes. The woman - her name is Vera Avdic, and she had -- her
23 husband was a Muslim but was a member of the 4th Detachment. He had the
24 right for benefits, namely, they had an apartment and they had a young
25 girl with a boyfriend who was dating a member of the 4th Detachment. And
1 they -- I assume they expected, as a reward from the 4th Detachment, that
2 they would be receiving my apartment.
3 Q. When you moved back to your apartment block, were you then allowed
4 to live there in peace?
5 A. Yes. For a certain period of time, yes. I was lucky. And my
6 neighbour, Luka Culumovic, maintained all my belongings. He took care of
7 my apartment. I returned home to an area which was not looted, and
8 regrettably, I stayed there for a relatively short period of time.
9 Q. And Ms. Kapetanovic, I believe you testified you moved back to
10 your apartment sometime in July 1992; is that correct?
11 A. Yes. It was something like that.
12 Q. Until when did you stay in your apartment?
13 A. I stayed there up to the time after my husband fled.
14 Q. And do you remember the date or the approximate date of when your
15 husband fled?
16 A. Yes. An important call-up of the non-Serbs was underway, namely,
17 it referred to the remaining Croats and the Muslims. In view of the fact
18 that my husband didn't want to take up arms and go and fight, he decided,
19 together with his friends, to flee across the River Sava to Croatia. That
20 was on the 22nd or the 23rd of August, 1992.
21 Q. Did you leave your apartment then immediately after your husband
22 fled towards the end of August, or were you removed from your apartment
23 for some other reason?
24 A. I stayed and lived in that apartment, together with the dog. It
25 was difficult. It was an extremely difficult time. And a woman -- for a
1 woman to live alone. I don't think it's necessary to emphasise this. The
2 nights were really problematic. I didn't leave on my own there.
3 Q. Why did you leave your apartment?
4 A. Since some 120 non-Serbs escaped from Samac, a large-scale arrest
5 of Muslim families ensued and, to a lesser degree, Croat families, because
6 most of them had already been arrested. They went door to door, from
7 family to family, and took away entire families towards Zasavica.
8 Something similar happened to me as well, although I, being a girlfriend
9 of somebody who had escaped, believed that I would be spared this arrest
10 because my husband, my boyfriend, had a family. I was sad about that.
11 His father is a handicapped person and had been in the wheelchair for 24
12 years, so I personally --
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, would you control the flow of evidence?
14 Can we deal with facts, please, events, please?
15 MS. REIDY:
16 Q. Ms. Kapetanovic, I need you will to be more specific in your
17 answers to my questions and more brief in your responses. Were you
18 arrested and taken to Zasavica after your boyfriend escaped across the
20 A. Precisely so. I was arrested.
21 Q. I want to ask a few questions about your time between your return
22 to the apartment and this second arrest and removal to Zasavica. Whilst
23 you were still living in your apartment, did you make any approaches to
24 the defendant Miroslav Tadic about leaving Bosanski Samac?
25 A. Yes, I did contact him.
1 Q. And where did you go to contact Mr. Tadic?
2 A. To the office of Mr. Tadic, which was in the local commune
3 building at the time. So I went directly to him, to his office.
4 Q. And were you able to see Mr. Tadic immediately or did you have to
5 wait a while before you saw him?
6 A. I wasn't able to see him immediately because there were other
7 people, soldiers, members of the 4th Detachment, waiting before me, so I
8 sat in the hallway and waited there.
9 Q. Whilst you were waiting in the hallway, did you overhear any of
10 the business that Mr. Tadic was conducting, specifically with members of
11 the 4th Detachment?
12 A. I naturally did. I sat right next to the door, which was open
13 towards the hallway. I heard the conversation between representatives of
14 those soldiers and Miroslav Tadic.
15 Q. And what was the topic of those conversations you overheard?
16 A. The topic was a very sad one. It had to do with those who were
17 killed during combat. They were supposed to bury them and they asked him
18 what could they offer in terms of assistance to the families of the fallen
20 Q. Was it your impression from what you heard that it was Miroslav
21 Tadic who would decide what would be distributed to families of the fallen
23 A. Absolutely. He was the one who decided what was to be given to
24 those families. I heard that.
25 Q. Did you eventually get to speak with Mr. Tadic yourself?
1 A. Yes. I managed to reach him and talk to Mr. Tadic.
2 Q. And what did you ask Mr. Tadic when you got to meet him?
3 A. I asked him to put me on the list for exchanges, which were
4 ongoing at the time, so that I could leave Samac and finally reunite with
5 my family. I offered him my apartment in return for this exchange, and
6 also my house.
7 Q. Did Mr. Tadic accept your offer of the apartment and your house?
8 A. No, not at all. He told me that I could expect everyone from
9 Samac leave, but that I wouldn't be able to leave so easily and that I
10 knew very well why was that so.
11 Q. What was your interpretation of what Mr. Tadic meant when he said
12 that you knew very well why you would not be leaving?
13 A. Mr. Tadic --
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Speculation.
16 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, with respect, it's not speculation?
17 A. I'm asking the witness her interpretation of a statement that was
18 made to her.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's a proper question, so you can go ahead.
20 MS. REIDY:
21 Q. Ms. Kapetanovic, can you explain what your interpretation was in
22 that office when Mr. Tadic told you that you knew very well why you would
23 not be leaving?
24 A. I naturally knew why he told this to me. Mr. Tadic knows that I'm
25 from Croatia. He knows that my entire family belonged to the HVO. He
1 also knew that my boyfriend had escaped and joined the same forces.
2 Q. This meeting with Mr. Tadic, it took place, then, after the end of
3 August, when your boyfriend had escaped; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was it your understanding, then, from that meeting that Mr. Tadic
6 would decide who would leave Bosanski Samac and who wouldn't?
7 A. Yes, precisely so. My exchange was out of question.
8 Q. And if you wanted to leave Bosanski Samac voluntarily, would you
9 have been allowed to do so? I mean, you said you wanted to leave. Could
10 you have just walked out or did you have to partake in one of these
11 exchanges to leave?
12 A. Nobody was ever able to leave Bosanski Samac voluntarily. The
13 only path to freedom was through exchanges.
14 Q. Ms. Kapetanovic, could you very briefly just explain to the
15 Chamber why, although you had stayed in Bosanski Samac through April, May,
16 June, that you finally decided you wanted to leave Bosanski Samac? Was it
17 voluntarily of your own will that you wanted to leave Bosanski Samac or
18 were there circumstances that made you feel you had no choice but to
20 A. It's very simple to explain that. Can you imagine living in a
21 closed-up space, without electricity, water, money, food, without anybody
22 around you, in a situation where they banged on your door during the night
23 to perhaps rape you; in daytime you would sit there and wait for them to
24 check your apartment. One lived in his or her apartment as if in prison.
25 So who could endure such a life? Since there were no communication lines,
1 I had no contact with my family. There was shelling going on. The war
2 was going on, gentlemen. So to live in a closed-up space, without any
3 basic necessities, without food, was equal to suicide. So I simply
4 desired to leave this town that was in fact a camp, regardless of the fact
5 that I had to leave all I had in order to escape. I simply wanted to
6 continue living.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you just tell us whether or not the
8 circumstances you described are the same for the non-Serbs living in your
9 apartment? You mentioned one family, the Abdics. Did they endure this
10 banging on the doors and the fear, et cetera, which you've just testified
12 A. No. They didn't have to go through that. Since it was a family
13 whose one member belonged to the 4th Detachment, so they had regular
14 supplies of food. He had a salary. His wife had contacts with her family
15 and freedom of movement. We were not in the same situation. We did not
16 have same rights. These people led a normal life. They lived freely.
17 Q. Thank you. I'd like to now ask you about your arrest that you've
18 testified to. This took place in -- or did this take place in September
20 A. Yes. Yes. Prior to the arrest, two days before I was actually
21 arrested, members of special forces came and said they were from Bosanski
22 Brod. They asked me a few questions pertaining to my boyfriend.
23 Q. Did they tell you that they were investigating situations where
24 people had escaped?
25 A. Yes, precisely so. They asked me of precisely such things.
1 Q. On this occasion, did the members of the forces who came to your
2 apartment search your house or ill-treat you in any way?
3 A. No. They simply talked to me.
4 Q. And then they left without providing you with any further
5 information; is that correct?
6 A. Yes. They left, and I thought that was it, that I was free.
7 Q. Thank you. Two days later did other members of the special forces
8 or the 4th Detachment or members of the police come to your apartment?
9 A. Yes. That happened early in the morning. They woke me up,
10 banging on my door.
11 Q. Can you recall now the date or the approximate date that this
12 would have occurred on?
13 A. I think it was on the 7th of September.
14 Q. Thank you. So I understand they banged on your door early in the
15 morning. Could you then tell the Chamber, in as concise a manner as
16 possible, what happened after you heard the banging.
17 A. Since I was in bed, I got up quickly. I opened the door. I saw
18 Naser, called Cakara, at the door again. He said that he came to fetch me
19 and take me to Zasavica. He was not alone. Either at my door or on the
20 staircase, where I heard noise later on. He simply told me to go down, to
21 enter the truck, to take my documents, do not fail to take my documents,
22 and that was all that he allowed me to take.
23 Q. Thank you. You said that this man Cakara was not alone, and then
24 the transcript says that "either at my door or on the staircase, where I
25 heard noise later on." Do you mean that there was other soldiers
1 accompanying this Cakara also at your door or other locations in the
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I just have a small objection
4 regarding this question. She didn't actually -- the witness actually
5 didn't say that these were soldiers. If I'm reading this transcript
6 correctly, the question was members of special forces for the detachment
7 or police, and she never answered that. So now it looks that counsel for
8 the Prosecution actually putting some words in mouth of the witness that
9 she never actually said. Maybe she should clarify that with the witness.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy. I think counsel is correct in
11 observing that. Can you clarify that with the witness?
12 MS. REIDY: Absolutely.
13 Q. Ms. Kapetanovic, could you tell us, to the best of your knowledge,
14 who this person Cakara worked for? Was it the police or the 4th
15 Detachment or was he a member of the special forces?
16 A. Naser, called Cakara, was a policeman before the war. I knew him
17 very well. He was a member of the 4th Detachment and a very active member
18 at that, because on several occasions it was him, exclusively him, who
19 addressed me, and not others in the group. So this was a man who was very
21 Q. Was he -- Ms. Kapetanovic, was this man, Mr. Cakara, was he
22 dressed in a police uniform or a camouflage uniform, or can you recall
24 A. He wore -- I did not see anybody wearing regular police uniforms
25 during the time when I lived in the apartment. These were camouflage
1 uniforms. Only the insignia differed, their emblems, military insignia. I
2 have little knowledge of it. But he had a camouflage uniform.
3 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me. May I ask a question, going a bit
4 back. When they were banging at your door and you told the Bench that you
5 were in bed when you went to open the door. Were you fully dressed in
6 your bed or, if not, did you get time to dress before you were taken down
7 to the truck?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wore my pajamas, and this is how I
9 was dressed when I opened the door. When they started banging on the
10 door, I was so scared that I wasn't even thinking about what I was
11 wearing. I had to open the door immediately. So I opened the door in my
12 pajamas. Later on they allowed me to get dressed.
13 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Okay. Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the course of the conversation,
15 they allowed me to do so.
16 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.
17 MS. REIDY:
18 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I understand that Cakara was not the only person
19 who came to your apartment. Is that correct? He was not alone?
20 A. Yes, precisely so. I saw several men dressed in the same way, but
21 he personally addressed me, not the others. It was him.
22 Q. Were the other men dressed also in camouflage uniform local Serbs,
23 to the best of your knowledge, or were they Serbs from Serbia or
25 A. This second arrest was carried out by locals. I don't know their
1 names, but I knew their faces.
2 Q. Thank you. You said that you were sent downstairs and you had
3 taken your personal documents with you. Did you take any other personal
4 items, clothing, personal toiletries, any personal belongings with you
5 when you were arrested?
6 A. I only had my dog in my arms at the time, my dog called Pegi, and
7 my personal documents, or rather, my identification card, and the dog.
8 That's all I had in my arms as I was going down to the truck.
9 Q. Did your neighbour, Luka Culumovic, manage to give you some of
10 your personal clothes to take with you?
11 A. Yes. Prior to this arrest, I had two bags prepared, because I was
12 hoping that I would be able to go through a normal exchange with the
13 assistance of Mr. Tadic. But since this arrest was unexpected, I was only
14 able to carry my dog, because my main concern was to have Pegi come with
15 me to the exchange. The bags were not important.
16 Q. Did Mr. Culumovic take one of these bags you prepared and give it
17 to you when you were downstairs, outside your apartment block?
18 A. Yes. In front of the truck there was a commotion, a problem. I
19 was allowed to enter the truck, but not my dog. I begged them, and I told
20 them that I would not get on the truck alive without my dog, because that
21 was the only thing that I still had in my life. Then Luka came along with
22 a bag, and now we had a double problem, because I had both the dog and the
23 bag. And in that commotion, they said that they needed me alive, without
24 my knowing it, Luka threw the bag into the truck and I simply carried my
25 dog on the truck, because I didn't really care whether they killed me or
1 they released me. It was that kind of moment.
2 Q. This truck which was outside your apartment, was it a military
4 A. No. To my regret, it was the same truck that had come to fetch me
5 when they took me to Crkvina, meaning during my first arrest. It was the
6 same truck with just two benches on each side.
7 Q. Was it a truck with tarpaulin over the back?
8 A. Yes. It was covered with tarpaulin. But the last side on the
9 tarpaulin was opened up when I entered the truck.
10 Q. Were the other people on the truck when you got into the truck?
11 A. Yes. There were other people there. There was Mirsada Ceribasic,
12 a Muslim from Samac; there was Hana Bicic, or perhaps that's not her last
13 name. I can't remember it right now. Both of these women were Muslims.
14 Q. And they were the only two already on the truck when you got on;
15 is that correct?
16 A. Yes. I think it was just the two of them then.
17 Q. After you got on the truck, did the truck -- were any other people
18 added to the truck at a later stage?
19 A. Yes. Just like during my first arrest, the truck followed the
20 same road. We went to the neighbouring street, to the house of the woman
21 who had been arrested with me the first time. I'm right now trying to
22 remember her name and that of her son. She was a Catholic, a teacher,
23 from Samac.
24 Q. She was of Croatian ethnicity; is that correct?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. Is the woman Ruza Matic you testified to before?
2 A. Thank you for helping me remember the name. That's right. It was
3 Mrs. Ruza Matic, and her son. We had the same misfortune to be arrested
4 together on the first occasion and now we were arrested for the second
6 Q. Were the four women on that truck -- I understand you were two
7 Muslims and two Croats. Were you taken to Zasavica?
8 A. Yes. The truck headed towards Zasavica, and the first stop was
9 the first checkpoint at the entrance into Zasavica.
10 Q. Were you removed from the truck at this checkpoint or was anything
11 taken from you at this checkpoint?
12 A. At this checkpoint, this is where I saw the special police for the
13 first time. So the policemen checked the truck, and we had to leave the
14 truck and our documents were not taken away from us.
15 Q. You said that this was where you saw the special police for the
16 first time. How did the special police differ from the people who had
17 arrested you and the people you had seen before in Samac?
18 A. The people at that checkpoint, I knew him. These were Nenad
19 Lukic; his relative, also going by the surname of Lukic; then another
20 person, Nenad Popovic from Obudovac; after that, they boasted that they
21 had been promoted into the ranks of special police and they wore the
22 police uniforms.
23 Q. So it was them who advised you that they were members of this
24 special police; is that right?
25 A. Yes. These were people from the 4th Detachment who were promoted
1 into special police units, and this is what Nenad told me when we talked
2 later on.
3 Q. When you had to leave the truck, where were you taken to next?
4 A. They took us by truck to the house of a man named Pandurevic,
5 surname Pandurevic. I believe that was his surname. I'll recall later.
6 And here a mass of people from Zasavica were already waiting there. They
7 were already arrested. And the police, who set up a police checkpoint or
8 a reception committee.
9 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kapetanovic. This man Pandurevic, was he also
10 there at his house?
11 A. Yes. A Croat, a person of Croat ethnicity, and in his yard the
12 people who were newly arrested were brought into his yard.
13 Q. So the people gathered in the yard of his house, were they people
14 from Zasavica or were they people who had been arrested in the surrounding
15 areas and brought to Zasavica?
16 A. Well, it was a mixed group, but a majority of these people were
17 newly arrested. Very few people from Zasavica were still there.
18 Q. These mass of people who had been arrested, can you tell me what
19 ethnicity they were?
20 A. These were people of Muslim ethnicity, of Croat ethnicity, as well
21 as Croat inhabitants.
22 Q. Can you tell me if there was -- obviously yourself, women. Were
23 there a mixture of women, children, elderly, all sorts of people who had
24 been arrested?
25 A. Yes. Entire families were collected from their homes and brought
1 in. I didn't see anybody fit for military service. Such people already
2 fled or they were detained in a normal prison. I'm referring here to the
3 school or the TO or the police station.
4 Q. Thank you. When you were all gathered here in this yard, what
5 happened to you? Were you addressed by some of these police that you also
6 told us were there?
7 A. Yes. We were told at that time that we should hand in everything
8 we have on us, documents, money, valuables, all that we had. I gave my ID
9 card, my pass. I succeeded in hiding my passport, and I handed in my
10 handbag, which was -- my bag was checked, and I had no valuables. They
11 gave me everything back except for the ID card.
12 Q. Was that the last time that you saw your ID card, when it was
13 taken from you in front of Mr. Pandurevic's house?
14 A. Yes. Yes, it was the last time that I saw the ID card.
15 Q. As well as taking your documents from you, did they provide you
16 with any explanation as to why you had been arrested or what would happen
17 to you in Zasavica?
18 A. No. They just took that, my ID, they saw I had no valuables,
19 returned my bag, and told me I was free.
20 Q. When they said free, did they mean free to leave Zasavica?
21 A. No. I didn't know at the time neither where I am, what I should
22 do, and to whom I should turn. It was the first time that I entered that
24 Q. Were you eventually taken to somewhere in the village where you
25 would stay and sleep and as such make your place while you were in
2 A. The inhabitant, one of the inhabitants, a lady, offered to find a
3 place for me where I could stay. She took me along this road and tried to
4 find out where there would be a free bed for me.
5 Q. Did you eventually find some sort of accommodation in one of the
6 houses in Zasavica?
7 A. Yes. At the end they brought me to the house of Ante Zecevic,
8 where I already found people, but not the owner of the house.
9 Q. Was Mirsada Ceribasic, who had been arrested with you, was she
10 also taken there?
11 A. Yes. She was also brought into the same house.
12 Q. Thank you. The people who were there already, were they people --
13 you said they were not the owners. Were they people from Zasavica or
14 people who had been detained and transferred to Zasavica?
15 A. The people I already found there were Marko Filipovic, from
16 Bosanski Samac; prior to that, he had been detained in the secondary
17 school and brought in to Zasavica. That was the first person. The second
18 person, Franjo, called Lane, known as Janje. I cannot remember the
19 surname at this time. Yes, I do remember. Franjo Milicevic. Franjo
20 Milicevic. And a person was there also who was also known as Toljaga. I
21 cannot remember his name. The three of them were brought in from the
22 secondary school and they had certain tasks to perform.
23 Q. You say that these three men had certain tasks to perform. Would
24 they be taken away during the day, required to do certain tasks, and then
25 be brought back to the house? Is that what would happen?
1 A. No. The home of Ante Zecevic had a big poultry farm which the
2 Serbs, during the war, transformed into a pig farm. And it was there that
3 they would bring in the looted pigs, and these three persons had the duty
4 of feeding the pigs and also of slaughtering the pigs whenever they were
5 ordered, told, to do so.
6 Q. So these three men informed you that they had been transferred
7 from the secondary school to Zasavica in order to take care of the pigs
8 that the Serbs were bringing into Zasavica; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. Yes, precisely so. That is right. They had to work here.
10 That was their work duty.
11 Q. Thank you. Did you have to do work duty while you were detained
12 in Zasavica?
13 A. Yes. On one morning, a person came with a list of names, where my
14 name was also written. He said to follow him and that every morning I
15 would have to go and work.
16 Q. Did this happen soon after your arrival in Zasavica?
17 A. Yes, very soon.
18 Q. Were you the only woman ordered to perform this duty or go to
19 work, or were there also other female detainees who were required to work
20 while they were detained?
21 A. I was the only Catholic woman who had this work duty, while all
22 the others were Muslim women, who were from Zasavica. And I was the only
23 Catholic woman.
24 Q. You said that a person came with a list of names and you had to
25 follow him every morning. Where did you go to perform your forced labour?
1 A. In a field. The truck was a part. We had to enter, board the
2 truck. Sometimes in that truck the detainees from the secondary school
3 were already there, and who were then taken to do the forced labour with
4 us. And then we would be taken in the direction of Odzak.
5 Q. So in the mornings, would you go to the entrance of Zasavica
6 village and meet up with everybody else who had had to do forced labour?
7 A. Yes. Yes. We would walk to this field, sit -- board the truck,
8 and then taken by truck further away.
9 Q. You said in the truck were detainees from the secondary school.
10 Were these male Croats who were being detained in the secondary school?
11 A. Well, it was a mixed group, people of Muslim and Croat ethnicity.
12 Q. So they would come in trucks from the secondary school and you
13 would join them to go out on forced labour assignments; is that correct?
14 A. Precisely so.
15 Q. You said that you were taken in the direction of Odzak, so I'd
16 like to ask you questions about the forced labour in Odzak first. What
17 types of tasks were you required to do when you were taken on these trucks
18 to Odzak? If you could just enumerate them for the Chamber first without
19 going into detail.
20 A. Personally, I did the following jobs: Picking plums, cleaning
21 roads, I went looting, then corn harvest, then harvesting and picking all
22 the fruit from the fields.
23 Q. Was the first task you were given this plum-picking?
24 A. Yes. Yes. That was our first task, because at the time the plums
25 were ripe.
1 Q. When you were taken to perform this plum-picking, were you
2 accompanied by an armed guard?
3 A. Always. It was compulsory.
4 Q. At any stage in the time that you were picking plums did the
5 soldiers release any rounds of fire to let you know that they were
6 prepared to fire?
7 A. Yes, it did happen to me.
8 Q. Did you receive any payment for this task of picking plums?
9 A. Yes. We received one meal a day. We worked from the morning
10 until dusk. And we were rewarded with one meal, if one could call that a
11 meal, but it kept body and soul together.
12 Q. Ms. Kapetanovic, I understand that you were fed once a day whilst
13 you were taken out, but did you actually receive any payment, any money,
14 any sort of compensation for all the work you were doing?
15 A. No, no money ever. I personally never received any money, nor
16 anybody else who lived in that village of Zasavica to be compensated with
17 money for the work that they performed.
18 Q. Roughly how long would you say that -- how many days or weeks were
19 you required to go out on this plum-picking assignment?
20 A. This -- I spent on this assignment up to a day, when the
21 International Red Cross entered Zasavica.
22 Q. Can you again tell us: Was it a matter of a few days that you
23 spent on this assignment? Was it a week, or can you not remember roughly
24 how many days you spent picking plums under armed guard?
25 A. Approximately about a month.
1 Q. Thank you. You mentioned one of your other tasks as being
2 looting. Can you tell us where you were taken to loot houses?
3 A. I personally worked on the looting of houses in Odzak.
4 Q. And these houses in Odzak, did you have any idea who they belonged
5 to, what the ethnicity of the owner might be?
6 A. Yes. These were houses belonging to people of ethnic -- of Muslim
8 Q. And for what reason do you say that the houses belonged to
10 A. The mother of my husband is from Odzak, and she is Muslim, so that
11 I know that area very well.
12 Q. When you were taken to these houses, what were you instructed to
13 do exactly to perform this looting?
14 A. I didn't loot alone. The detainees from the school were looting
15 together with me. Their task was to carry out the first stage of the
16 looting, to take out the bigger objects, and this at the orders of the
17 guards that were with us. After performing this duty, then I had the duty
18 of bringing out lighter objects. It means clothing, carpets, paintings,
19 pots and pans, all these valuables for which I was told that I should take
21 Q. So you were instructed, you and the other people with you, were
22 instructed to remove all the contents of houses by the guards; is that
24 A. Yes. We were told the place where we should put all these things
25 nicely and leave them there.
1 Q. Were you required to put these items onto trucks or simply take
2 them to a designated area?
3 A. No. I never loaded on any truck. I had to place these objects
4 along the road, place them nicely, and that there would be easy access to
5 these objects, easy and simple.
6 Q. Do you have any information about where these household items
7 would be taken after you had placed them in the assigned location?
8 A. Yes. When I was doing this, I knew exactly where these items
9 would be taken, and I have also a reason for that.
10 Q. Where would the items be taken, and what's the source of your
12 A. I will only state that what I know and what I've seen. At the
13 time that I was in my apartment, as there was no electricity, I had to get
14 a supply of firewood in order to be able to cook, and with the son of Luka
15 Culumovic, I ensured a supply of firewood. And this firewood had to be
16 placed in front of our entrance. An incident occurred, because at the
17 same time, Vera Avdic, with a tractor, brought in - I know these were
18 looted - now I know that these were looted items, and she brought them in
19 front of this very same entrance. They took down from the tractor a
20 stove, a cooking stove, a wood stove. I asked, "Where did you get it,
21 Vera? I know that you don't have it." And she told me this was a reward
22 for the participation of her husband in the 4th Detachment. And on that
23 tractor, other items could be seen also.
24 When I experienced this fact that I'm looting, I knew very well
25 where these items would end, what kind of a reward they were.
1 Q. So it was your personal understanding that the things you were
2 removing from houses would later be distributed to Serbs and members of
3 the Serb army; is that correct?
4 A. Precisely so.
5 Q. You testified that you had to sweep or clean roads. Could you
6 tell me where you had to clean roads?
7 A. Yes. It was the street in front of the mosque in Odzak, namely,
8 the mosque had been destroyed, totally demolished, and the rocks, the
9 debris which fell on the street, I had to sweep that.
10 Q. Were you the only one engaged in that task or were other detainees
11 required to clear away the rubble of the mosque?
12 A. I wasn't the only one. There were more than one working on this.
13 And we were either sent to this or that job, but we never were doing a job
15 Q. Whilst you were clearing the rubble, were you also under the
16 supervision of armed guards?
17 A. Yes. Whatever we did was done under the supervision of armed
19 Q. Did you have any choice in what you did? Could you ever refuse
20 to, for example, loot a particular house if you didn't want to?
21 A. We had no choice whatsoever. We had to perform that what was
22 told, what we were told to do, even if it was a question of looting.
23 Q. You said that whilst you were picking plums, that you were
24 receiving one meal a day. Was this also the case when you were performing
25 other tasks, such as looting or clearing away rubble?
1 A. Yes. We always had this one mini meal a day.
2 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, I don't know if you want to take the
3 break at half past. I was going to move into another area. Maybe --
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We still have a few minutes.
5 MS. REIDY: Okay. That's fine.
6 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Are you going onto another topic?
7 MS. REIDY: I was going to move on to another topic, yes.
8 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Okay. I have a couple of questions.
9 When you were in Zasavica and you were taken to Odzak for
10 plum-picking or whatever the work assignment contained, you necessarily
11 had to cross the River Bosna, and if my memory serves me well, the bridges
12 over the River Bosna were blown up during a rather early stage of the war.
13 How did you get over the river Bosna?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is indeed a very good
15 question. All the bridges had been destroyed. We would come into Odzak
16 into two ways. The first way, via a pontoon bridge which was located in
17 Pisari, the border between Samac and Pisari, and we would continue via
18 Dubica to Odzak. That was one of the routes. After that, this was being
19 avoided due to incidents which I could mention later on. And then they
20 would take us via an alternative route, via Modrica. That bridge was also
21 demolished. But at this time, they made something like a pontoon between
22 the two parts of the demolished bridge. You can well imagine what it
23 looked like to cross this bridge with a truck, the part of the bridge, the
24 part of the pontoon, and again the bridge. And that is how we came to
25 Odzak, but with the risk of having to swim in that truck.
1 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a further question. I've understood from
2 your testimony that your little dog Pegi was very close to your heart.
3 What happened to the dog during your stay in Zasavica or later on?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My dog, my Pegi lived in the same
5 room in which Mirsada Ceribasic and I lived. So it was the two of us and
6 Pegi who shared one bed. While I worked, the men who were detained there
7 guarded Pegi. My dog Pegi was exchanged as a child, so I had a number of
8 29 plus 1. That's the number I was assigned. And this plus 1 signified a
9 child that was with me.
10 JUDGE LINDHOLM: No more questions.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll take our break and resume our proceedings at
12 1100 hours.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy. You're continuing
17 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, in answer to His Honour's question before the
19 break, you said that there were a number of incidents which happened en
20 route to Odzak, and that's why later you took an alternative route. What
21 was the nature of these incidents that would happen on the way to forced
23 A. Yes, there were incidents. During one of them, I had a fortune or
24 misfortune to be present. The part of the road from Ruda to Dubica, or
25 rather, to the pheasant farm, was held by men from Krajina. And then
1 further on, from the pheasant farm to Odzak was the area held by local
2 Serbs, meaning the 4th Detachment, and others who cooperated with them.
3 It was a division of territory.
4 Q. Were you sometimes stopped by the men from Krajina who controlled
5 part of the territory you had to pass through?
6 A. Yes. Before this happened to me, I was told that men from Krajina
7 had a practice of stopping the truck, and if they waved to the truck to
8 stop, this truck had to stop. And then men from Krajina would take the
9 women off the truck and then send them to work in Obudovac, where they had
10 their headquarters, or they were sent to the pheasant farm. And I was
11 told that these women had been raped. When I happened to be in the truck
12 that was stopped by men from Krajina, I was so afraid of being perhaps
13 raped that I jumped off the truck. I have to say, Your Honour, that I
14 still suffer consequences from that jump. I have been treated, and my
15 penultimate vertebra is damaged, so I have a spinal damage, but I managed
16 to save myself from an even worse fate of potentially being raped.
17 Q. You said you jumped off that truck. Do I take it, then, that you
18 hid from the men and later rejoined your group to continue with your
19 forced labour assignment? Is that what happened?
20 A. Yes. All of that took place on that pheasant farm, or rather, on
21 that road. The corn was very high around the road, and there were many
22 plum trees, so it was sort of a wildish area, area of wildish growth, so I
23 managed to hide myself there.
24 Q. And how did you manage to rejoin the truck after the men from
25 Krajina had either left or allowed the truck to proceed?
1 A. The members of the 4th Detachment had that area to themselves, so
2 the area with plum trees was theirs, so to speak, and this is where my
3 group was assigned to work. And I simply quietly joined them as if
4 nothing had happened.
5 Q. So I take it that you hid in this wild growth and then rejoined on
6 foot your group who were picking plums. Is that right?
7 A. Precisely so. It wasn't a large area.
8 Q. Did you yourself ever speak to any of these women, any women who
9 had been taken from the trucks by the men from Krajina, or did you just
10 hear reports of it from third parties?
11 A. I worked with these women.
12 Q. Did you personally speak to any women who had been raped after she
13 had been removed from the truck?
14 A. The rape was something dishonourable and embarrassing to me, and
15 out of respect for these women, I never asked them anything about it.
16 Because, God forbid, that something like that should happen to me. It is
17 certain that I would hesitate to talk about it. They told us that our job
18 in Obudovac was to clean their rooms and to provide any kind of service to
19 them that they needed. These women did not want to be very specific, but
20 it was understood what that meant. And later on I found what had been
21 happening there.
22 Q. When you say "later on," do you mean after you were finally
23 exchanged and were free, so to speak?
24 A. Yes, it was then.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, before the break you had said that you performed
1 forced labour until you were visited by the International Committee of the
2 Red Cross. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, precisely so.
4 Q. Can you recall the date or the approximate date on which the ICRC
5 came to Zasavica?
6 A. I think it was around the 6th of September.
7 Q. Was it September or October?
8 A. October. I'm sorry. I apologise. It was October, yes.
9 Q. About a month after you were arrested; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And just to clarify an earlier answer that you gave in the
12 record. Between the beginning of September and this date in the
13 beginning of October, the sort of forced labour you carried out was
14 everything you described, was it: Plum-picking, looting, cleaning of
16 A. These were work assignments that I had to do while I was driven in
17 a truck to forced labour sites. So I did whatever was seasonal and what
18 was required, whether it was potato harvesting or something else. So
19 whatever was dictated by the season.
20 Q. And this all took place between -- generally during the month of
21 September 1992, was it?
22 A. Yes, precisely so.
23 Q. Thank you. Where were you when the International Committee of the
24 Red Cross came to Zasavica? Were you in the village itself or were you on
25 a forced labour assignment?
1 A. On that day, none of us went to work, probably because they knew
2 that we would have a visit. This was the first visit at the international
3 level. So the first visit to the camp in Zasavica. And because of that,
4 I was in the house belonging to the Zecevic family.
5 Q. And how did you learn that there was a representative of the
6 International Committee for the Red Cross in Zasavica?
7 A. I was very ill at the time and I was in bed when Mr. Pandurevic
8 came asking me to help myself and the others.
9 Q. What was the cause of your illness that required you to remain in
11 A. At the time, due to spinal injury, I was quite bended. I had
12 intense pain. When I jumped off the truck, I started bleeding, and after
13 that I was unable to walk normally. It was terrible. You can imagine how
14 it was, without proper hygiene, for a woman to live under those
15 conditions. And since I had no contact with doctors, I had no idea what
16 was going on with me, but I looked pitiful.
17 Q. When Mr. Pandurevic came to ask you to help yourself and the
18 others, what did he mean by that? What did he ask you to do?
19 A. He told me that in his house there was a team of the ICRC, that
20 there were UNPROFOR forces there, police from Bosanski Samac, and a lady
21 interpreter who, according to him, was not interpreting truthfully.
22 Q. And how did he think that you would be able to help in this
24 A. He told me that he had heard from other prisoners that I spoke
25 English. He said that he would, with the help of others, manage to get me
1 into that room without any announcement, so I could listen to that
2 interpretation, since the conversation was already ongoing, and that I
3 should intervene if the interpretation was not truthful indeed.
4 Q. Did you go to Mr. Pandurevic's house, where the ICRC were?
5 A. Yes. I started off with him immediately. I came to that house.
6 There were very many people there. All of the prisoners were there, in
7 fact. They let me through because they had been expecting my arrival, and
8 they let me go to the door of that room. There was a large table, large
9 improvised table there, at which there was Simo Krunic sitting, who was
10 the representative of the authorities in Bosanski Samac; a lady
11 interpreter sat there, with a very distinct Serbian accent; and there were
12 other people there as well whom I didn't know, but they apparently
13 represented the ICRC and UNPROFOR.
14 Q. Could you understand the conversation that was taking place in
15 that room between the people you've described to us?
16 A. Yes. The lady interpreter said, in English, naturally, that in
17 the village of Zasavica there are regular visits by a doctor and that the
18 food supply is undisturbed.
19 Q. And was this lady interpreter simply interpreting what the Serb
20 authorities were saying to her? So in other words, it was originally told
21 to her this was the situation and she translated that into English for the
22 benefit of the ICRC delegates?
23 A. It was a total lie. One of the locals was speaking at that very
24 moment and complaining about the lack of medical assistance, or any kind
25 of assistance in terms of food. And I reacted impulsively at that
1 moment. I simply stood in front of them at the table and I said, "This is
2 a lie, a complete lie." The woman who is interpreting for you is twisting
3 the situation." I introduced myself and said that I am asking for
4 assistance. I said that I was very ill and that I couldn't stand up for a
5 long time, that I was bleeding, that I had a spinal injury, that I was
6 malnourished, that most of the people are in a similar condition. There
7 were the elderly there, the children. I asked that a doctor be brought to
8 us. I asked that, for a doctor to be brought while they were there, so we
9 could be at least helped that day.
10 Q. Did you convey this information as best you could in English or in
12 A. I, at that time, spoke fairly good English, and I think that that
13 was the last time in my life that I spoke English. I speak German today
14 very well, but I can't speak English any more. I can understand it.
15 Mr. Krunic was extremely angry upon learning that I corrected and
16 interfered in their attempt to spread lies.
17 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic --
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like a correction, because on
20 page 37, line 16, the Prosecutor asked a question to which we have not
21 heard an answer. The question was whether this lady was correctly
22 interpreting what the Serb authorities were speaking or incorrectly. We
23 did not hear the answer to that question. We did not hear the answer to
24 the Prosecutor's question, who brought the doctor there.
25 MS. REIDY: If Mr. Lukic would wait, I am coming back to that
2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
3 MS. REIDY:
4 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, again I want to go back to what I asked you
5 earlier. When you came into the room, were you able to tell whether or
6 not it was the Serb authorities, the people who were running the place
7 where you were staying in Zasavica, who were telling the Red Cross that
8 there was regular supplies of food, et cetera, telling those lies about
9 the conditions, or was this the initiative of the interpreter, or was it
10 the authorities who were trying to tell the Red Cross that things were
11 better than they were?
12 A. A very good question. Mr. Krunic had the honour of addressing the
13 interpreter, and the question that was put by the man who was complaining
14 was verbatim as I related it here, or rather, the reply was that we had
15 daily medical assistance and regular food supply. That means that
16 Mr. Krunic was lying, and the interpreter translated that verbatim.
17 Q. The man who was complaining, was he -- when you say "complaining,"
18 was he a person from the Red Cross or was this a detainee in Zasavica who
19 was trying to explain the circumstances to the Red Cross?
20 A. It was a detainee, somebody who was imprisoned just like I was.
21 But after putting that question, he had nothing else to ask. All of us
22 were afraid of being beaten, because beating was a regular occurrence in
24 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I need you to try to be very clear about what
25 happened in this room, because it's confusing now on the record. You said
1 Mr. Krunic addressed the interpreter. Is that correct? At one stage he
2 was the person talking to the interpreter? Is that correct?
3 A. Yes. He was the one who talked to the interpreter. Mr. Krunic
4 was the one.
5 Q. And Mr. Krunic is, you said, I think, the representative of the
6 Serb authorities from Bosanski Samac at the time. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes. He was an official of the police in Bosanski Samac.
8 Q. So he was telling the interpreter that there was daily medical
9 assistance and regular food supply; is that correct?
10 A. Precisely so.
11 Q. And the interpreter --
12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Ms. Reidy. When you say "Mr. Krunic
13 was telling the interpreter," is that really what we're talking about, or
14 is it a situation where we've got Mr. Krunic, then we've got the
15 International Committee of the Red Cross and UNPROFOR representatives, and
16 Mr. Krunic is talking -- or is Mr. Krunic talking to the reps of the ICRC
17 and UNPROFOR, and the interpreter is simply interpreting? So he isn't
18 talking to the interpreter; he's talking to them and she is interpreting,
19 just like we have interpretation here? Could you clarify that that is the
20 situation? And then secondly, for us to get clear, because I agree, there
21 is some confusions on the transcript: Was the interpreter interpreting
22 what she heard and verbatim saying it in English, or was she putting a
23 gloss on it and not interpreting but rather elaborating in English, in
24 some way that wasn't correct, interpretation of Mr. Krunic's words?
25 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. I hope I'm trying to go in that
1 direction of answering all those queries.
2 Q. When Mr. Krunic made his address or made his comments about daily
3 medical assistance and regular food supply, was that then translated into
4 English by this interpreter?
5 A. Yes. I have to say that Mr. Krunic was a dominant person in that
6 room. He was the one who was the main speaker. And to give a specific
7 reply to your question, let me say that Mr. Krunic said that we had food
8 supplies and medical assistance, and this is exactly what the interpreter
9 translated into English to the other gentlemen who were present there.
10 That was the greatest lie, to say that in front of all of us.
11 Q. Thank you. But again, to clarify: Is it as Her Honour said,
12 then, that Mr. Krunic was talking in B/C/S, in fact, addressing the
13 delegates of the Red Cross, and that was being interpreted by the
14 interpreter accompanying the Red Cross; he was putting into -- she was
15 putting into English Mr. Krunic's words for the benefit of the Red Cross?
16 A. Precisely so, verbatim.
17 Q. So when you say -- again, you said verbatim. So she wasn't adding
18 her own things. It was Mr. Krunic's words that she was translating; is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, you've also mentioned someone who was complaining. Is this a
22 separate person from Mr. Krunic?
23 A. The complaints were made by the detainees.
24 Q. And were the detainees trying to address the delegates of the Red
25 Cross in the same way that Mr. Krunic had addressed them?
1 A. Well, this type of intercourse wasn't possible. The complaints
2 were made addressed to Mr. Krunic.
3 Q. So is it that the detainees addressed Mr. Krunic in B/C/S? That's
4 it, is it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. But he was the sole one who conducted the conversation with the
7 delegates of the Red Cross?
8 A. Precisely so.
9 Q. And he would say that there was daily medication, regular food
10 supply, and --
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, we've been through all of that. Please,
12 don't repeat the evidence all the time.
13 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm just --
14 JUDGE MUMBA: I know what you're trying to say. He never
15 addressed the complaints of the detainees to the Red Cross and the
16 UNPROFOR representatives.
17 MS. REIDY: I just want to make it clear when Mrs. Kapetanovic
18 said that they had spread their lies, that this was where this was
19 emanating, how the whole conversation was conducted. But if it's clear
20 from the record, I'm more than happy to move on.
21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I just have one small question for clarity's
23 Mrs. Kapetanovic, when the detainees, such as the gentleman you
24 mention, were complaining to Mr. Krunic about the conditions in Zasavica,
25 were those complaints made in B/C/S also translated by the interpreter
1 into English so that the members of the International Committee of the Red
2 Cross could hear about the need for medical attention for the detainees?
3 So were those complaints also translated into English so that the ICRC
4 members could understand?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. A good question. It wasn't
6 only a question of food and medical assistance. We had also other
7 problems, mistreatment, beatings, harassment. In view of the fact that in
8 the camp, access was given to people like Lugar, I could personally
9 observe such scenes, and this was also one of the topics. And all the
10 complaints went -- they had to go to Mr. Krunic, and then he formulated
11 the sentence which the interpreter conveyed to the International Red Cross
12 and the other gentlemen. Therefore, all of us had to address Mr. Krunic,
13 and it was he then who formulated the sentence.
14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
15 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I'd like to take you back now to your reaction
17 to hearing this conversation between Mr. Krunic and the ICRC delegates.
18 You addressed them in English, telling them of your problems. What did
19 they do in reaction to this information?
20 A. In view of the fact that I directly addressed, I requested that a
21 medical doctor be brought in, and if they could assure -- ensure a minimum
22 of food supplies. Mr. Krunic turned red and he said that the special
23 police would immediately take me to the doctor, the physician in Bosanski
24 Samac. It was really a precedence that somebody would leave this camp.
25 The international authorities were surprised, and pleasantly surprised by
1 this gesture. They, in fact, offered a vehicle which he turned down. He
2 said that he had special police forces which would accompany me, escort
3 me, so that nothing would happen to me on the way.
4 Q. Did the delegates of the Red Cross ask you any follow-up questions
5 directly about the conditions in the camp?
6 A. Yes. But this meeting soon ended. Krunic said that the topics
7 had been exhausted, and I was happy to receive that promise that a medical
8 physician would be visiting us in Zasavica in the next day and that we
9 would be receiving minimum food supplies. And that surprised me. And so
10 the meeting ended rather soon, rather quickly.
11 Q. What kind of follow-up questions did the ICRC put to you?
12 A. Precisely concerning the issue of the doctor, the issue of
13 survival, how the food situation -- and the topic of mistreatment and
15 Q. Were you able to tell them frankly what the situation was,
16 including whether people were mistreated or beaten?
17 A. Concerning the beating and mistreating, at that point in time I
18 didn't dare say anything, because I was afraid I wouldn't survive until
19 the next morning. Krunic knew that Lugar had already been in my home, and
20 no need to tell you what kind of a murder [As interpreted] that was. And
21 Krunic knew what was happening in that village. And I was afraid of not
22 surviving the next morning; therefore, I had to keep quiet about that.
23 Q. Did you convey to them the situation of lack of food and lack of
24 medical care?
25 A. Yes. My complaint was in mild terms. I only asked for a visit of
1 a doctor, and if they could help and bring in some food supplies.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
3 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. It's page 44, line
4 18. I believe that this witness said that it was not a kind of murder
5 that was, but the right sentence should be what kind of murderer he was.
6 That was the B/C/S version of the words of this witness, and the
7 transcript should be clarified and corrected. Thank you.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
9 MS. REIDY:
10 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I believe this is just a typing error on the
11 transcript, but did you describe Mr. Lugar as a murderer?
12 A. Yes, precisely so, and with reason. If you wish an explanation, I
13 will furnish it.
14 Q. No. That's not necessary. But perhaps you could just say -- you
15 had information that he had killed people, that's why you call him a
16 murderer; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, precisely so.
18 Q. And he was allowed to come to Zasavica and wander around the camp
19 in Zasavica; is that correct?
20 A. Precisely so.
21 Q. Thank you. You testified about a promise made to take you to the
22 doctor. Were you taken from Zasavica to visit a medical doctor?
23 A. Yes. They allowed me to change my clothing, put me in a vehicle,
24 and - the special unit from the 4th Detachment - took me to Dr. Nogic, a
25 gynaecologist, a Muslim, of Muslim ethnicity, and worked in the health
1 centre in Bosanski Samac.
2 Q. After Mr. Nogic had conducted an examination, did he recommend to
3 the authorities what treatment you should have?
4 A. Yes. Dr. Nogic was shocked by my general condition. He turned to
5 their representative, who was standing there by, and at the same moment I
6 should be taken to Belgrade and that it's a very, very complicated
7 disease, illness.
8 Q. When he said you should be taken to Belgrade, did you understand
9 that to mean where there were proper medical facilities?
10 A. That was precisely the reason. I would have to undergo an
11 operation, and that could be only performed in Belgrade.
12 Q. The people he told this to, were these armed people who had
13 accompanied you from Zasavica to the health centre?
14 A. Yes, members of the 4th Detachment under arms, who even wanted to
15 be present at the gynaecological examination. He stopped-- Dr. Nogic
16 stopped them in front of the screen which was around the examination
17 table, but they were there.
18 Q. What was the response when Dr. Nogic said that you should be
19 transferred to Belgrade for proper medical treatment?
20 A. They said that that was out of the question, completely out of the
22 Q. What other course of action did Mr. Nogic recommend for your
24 A. He said -- namely, he requested that if I cannot be transferred to
25 Belgrade, that then they should bring me in on a daily basis for
2 Q. Is that what happened, then? Were you brought to the health
3 centre on a daily basis for injections?
4 A. Yes. And I am grateful that they kept their promise, and they did
5 take me every day for injections, and they saved my life, which later on
6 became more complicated.
7 Q. For roughly how many days after this first visit did you continue
8 to get these daily injections?
9 A. I was allowed to have a course of injections of ten days. That
10 was the course.
11 Q. Apart from the time you were taken to have these injections, did
12 you have to remain in Zasavica?
13 A. Yes. Immediately after the injection, I was taken back to
15 Q. Would you be taken under guard each time there and from Zasavica?
16 A. Yes, armed guard, even when I was receiving the injection.
17 Q. What happened to the other people in Zasavica? Did they get a
18 visit by a medical doctor?
19 A. Yes. On the next day, Dr. Ruzmir came and examined all of those
20 who had complaints, and in the same way, the next day, some food arrived.
21 I remember that I received a litre of cooking oil.
22 Q. Did other types of food arrived? You said you received some oil.
23 What other types of food were distributed to the people in the camp?
24 A. Yes. Some flour, depending on the number of family members, and
25 some noodles. Some received some rice.
1 Q. Until this food distribution, had there ever been food distributed
2 by the authorities to you detainees in Zasavica?
3 A. No. Nothing of food arrived to Zasavica. It was only from
4 Zasavica that the remaining food was taken out by the military who would
5 enter Zasavica.
6 Q. Whilst you were there, did military personnel come to take food
7 from Zasavica?
8 A. Yes. Yes. They would take food out.
9 Q. Did individual members of the military come to houses looking for
10 food, or was this done in an organised fashion?
11 A. There were two ways of doing it: In an organised fashion, as I
12 lived in that house, which was a pig farm, they would take, in an
13 organised manner, pork meat and pigs to the families of the killed
14 soldiers. That was done by the military. Individually, they would come
15 into our homes and take the few potatoes and peppers which we found in
16 these homes where we lived. So they had the right of taking that away. So
17 both of it occurred: Organised and non-organised.
18 Q. Was there an exchange of people from Zasavica organised in the few
19 day after the ICRC visit?
20 A. Yes. An exchange was being planned, and indeed I was very happy
21 at the time.
22 Q. Were you advised that you would be part of this exchange?
23 A. Yes, I was informed about that.
24 Q. And can you tell us: Was this one or two days after the ICRC had
1 A. I think it was the second day after their visit.
2 Q. And was it after you had had your diagnosis by Dr. Nogic?
3 A. Yes, after that.
4 Q. How did you learn that you were to be included on this exchange?
5 A. Svetozar Vasovic came to me and said that I should get ready
6 because I am on the list for the exchange which is expected to take place
7 rather soon.
8 Q. Were you advised that you were on the list because of your medical
10 A. Not concretely because of that, but that I should get ready and
11 that I will be on that list.
12 Q. This Svetozar Vasovic, did he work for Miroslav Tadic?
13 A. Yes. He was his assistant.
14 Q. Did you see him in the building where you went when you went to
15 speak with Miroslav Tadic?
16 A. Yes, in order to arrive to the office of Mr. Miroslav Tadic, I had
17 to pass through the office of Mr. -- by the office of Svetozar Vasovic,
18 for all information he would inquire with Mr. Tadic.
19 Q. Was the first time you saw Mr. Vasovic in Zasavica when he came to
20 tell you that your name was going to be on the list, or had you seen him
21 prior to this?
22 A. This wasn't the first meeting of ours in Zasavica. I saw him
23 there on numerous occasions.
24 Q. And each time he would come, would it be in connection with
1 A. No. No, it wasn't in connection with the exchanges.
2 Q. Why did he come to Zasavica?
3 A. One of the reasons was to collect food for himself.
4 Q. Was this food from houses or food from the pig farm you described?
5 A. Exclusively from the homes.
6 Q. Were you -- you were told that you were going to be on the
7 exchange. Were you actually brought to an exchange point? Did you
8 actually get exchanged a few days later?
9 A. When I was told that I'd be exchanged, indeed they did come and
10 pick me up in the early morning and took me to the football pitch in front
11 of the secondary school, and the other people on the exchange list were
12 already there, so that I came to the right place.
13 Q. Were you the only one taken away that morning from Zasavica?
14 A. No, I wasn't the only one. Some ten, approximately ten people
15 from Zasavica, between seven and ten, were involved.
16 Q. Were these women, children, elderly persons? Who were the other
17 persons brought with you for exchange?
18 A. Detainees from Zasavica, primarily elderly women and children.
19 Q. Thank you. You said you were brought to the football pitch. The
20 other people on the exchange were already there. Who were the other
21 people on the exchange list that you saw gathered at the football pitch?
22 A. Along the school itself, people were lined up, people who came
23 from the prison in Samac. So it was the school, the staff headquarters,
24 and the police station. So these were people from these detention
25 facilities. They were pitiful and beaten up. On the next area, there was
1 the family members who came to accompany these people, and in the third
2 group, consisting of myself and the other persons who came from Zasavica.
3 Q. And these people who had been brought from detention centres, were
4 they exclusively non-Serb?
5 A. Men, non-Serbs, who were brought out from these camps. I knew
6 most of them.
7 Q. How were these people who were gathered there, including
8 yourselves, organised into buses for the exchange? What exactly took
10 A. In front of these detainees, the military and the police were
11 standing, and they were reading out names and surnames: That and that
12 person, after the name had been read, would have to head for the bus, and
13 prior to entering, boarding the bus, his name would be read out again, and
14 only then he can board the bus. So first these men, these detainees from
15 these prisons, were the first ones.
16 Q. Was your name called out?
17 A. Yes, it was. Finally, also my turn came, my Pegi. The two of us
18 headed towards the bus, because my name and surname was clearly read out
19 from that first list. When I came to the bus, before the door, bus door,
20 Naser, known as Cakara, stood. He looked at me and he said that my name
21 is not on his list.
22 Q. What did you do when he told you that your name did not appear on
23 the list?
24 A. First I was shocked, and I said that possibly there was a mistake,
25 that he should check properly that list. Well, he was very rude, and he
1 didn't have the time to discuss it with me, that not to move and not to
2 leave. Then I just moved from the bus door. The police then came and
3 took me away from that field.
4 Q. And where did they take you?
5 A. On the first moment, I thought that I'd be free at last to go
6 home, if I can't go into the exchange, but they took me to the third camp,
7 and that was the secondary school.
8 Q. Were you put into the gym hall in the secondary -- in the main
9 building of the secondary school or were you held in a corridor?
10 A. First they kept me in the hall. Then they told me to go into the
11 classroom. Then they didn't know what to do with me, and I didn't know
12 what to do with myself either.
13 Q. Did you spend the day, then, in the secondary school?
14 A. Yes. I sat there in the secondary school until the evening, when
15 the police came and took me back to Zasavica, to the same house from which
16 I had been taken away happily that morning.
17 Q. After you returned to the house in Zasavica, how much longer did
18 you have to stay in Zasavica for until you were actually exchanged?
19 A. I stayed until the 5th of November, 1992.
20 Q. During -- after your return to Zasavica and up until the 5th of
21 November, 1992, did you have to perform -- continue to perform forced
23 A. No. My treatment was continued during that period of time. I
24 went to get shots. The doctor made a certificate which stated that I
25 should be relieved of all physical work, and to my great surprise, this is
1 exactly what happened. I was spared.
2 Q. Did you then stay in the house that you had sheltered in Zasavica
3 or were you required to work in the confines of Zasavica?
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. In the answer of Mrs.
6 Kapetanovic, the last answer, page 52, line 20 and -- between line 20 and
7 23, we clearly heard in B/C/S version that Mrs. Kapetanovic said that
8 according to the certificate of the physician, she was relieved of all
9 work and work obligation, these particular words we heard. And I kindly
10 ask that this part of the transcript should be corrected in that sense.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: That is what is contained. She was relieved of all
12 physical work.
13 MR. PANTELIC: Well, she said, in fact, work obligation, not only
14 physical work. She said physical work and work obligation, which might be
15 of the importance for our case.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
17 MS. REIDY:
18 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, if you can recall, what was it that the
19 physician certificate relieved you of? Do you remember what terms were
21 A. The document, the paper that I received from Dr. Nogic, clearly
22 stated that he asked that I be relieved of all physical labour and work
23 obligation. It's stated precisely what I told you.
24 Q. Thank you. Notwithstanding the certificate from the doctor, were
25 you required to carry out some work within the confines of Zasavica?
1 A. On the day that my treatment was finished, this is to say on the
2 day when I was given my last shot, I had to go and work in the makeshift
3 kitchen in Zasavica. So I wasn't said to work in Odzak, but I rather
4 remained in the village.
5 Q. And in this makeshift kitchen in Zasavica, what sort of work would
6 you be carrying out in the kitchen?
7 A. We -- or rather, I had to do work, at the disposal of the men from
8 Krajina. I had to cook, prepare coffee, tea, even bake a cake, whatever
9 they demanded.
10 Q. And these men from Krajina, were they based in Zasavica or did
11 they have a stopover point that they would call into? What were they
12 doing in Zasavica that you would tend to them in this manner?
13 A. The men from Krajina were stationed in Obudovac. Since Zasavica
14 was transformed into a pigsty, which is what we called it, because it was
15 simply flooded with stolen pigs. Our people had to slaughter the pigs,
16 not only for the purposes -- for the use of the 4th Detachment members,
17 but also for the men from Krajina. And they would come, and while they
18 were waiting for the pigs to be readied for them, they were in the house
19 of Mrs. Blanka.
20 Q. And so you worked in Mrs. Blanka's house in the makeshift kitchen;
21 is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you continue to do this up until the 5th of November, when you
24 were exchanged?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. How did you learn that you were again put on an exchange list in
3 A. After several attempts to get my name put on the exchange list,
4 women from Zasavica, Marta and Blanka, attempted to help me. At that time
5 I only assumed that my name would be put on the list.
6 Q. Who were these attempts made to?
7 A. Mr. Svetozar Vasovic.
8 Q. And what sort of attempts were made to put your name on the list?
9 How did Marta and Blanka help you with these attempts?
10 A. They told me that without money or something that I could offer in
11 exchange, I had no chance of getting myself on that list.
12 Q. Did they tell you why they knew you needed to be able to offer
13 some financial consideration for your exchange?
14 A. Because women and families that had already been exchanged had
15 given money for their freedom. I knew those families personally.
16 Q. Can you recall now who any of those families were that provided
17 money to be exchanged?
18 A. Yes. I remember the family called Cosic. I remember a girl named
19 Senada or Senija. I remember other people, but cannot tell you their
20 names right away. But I know for a fact that the Cosic family had given
21 money. People were paying somewhere around 500 German marks to gain
23 Q. And to whom was this money being paid?
24 A. Svetozar Vasovic. He was in charge of us, and he was the only one
25 who came to see us regarding the exchange.
1 Q. And this is the man who had his office as the assistant to
2 Miroslav Tadic; is that correct?
3 A. Precisely so.
4 Q. Did Marta and Blanka help you to offer money or valuables for your
6 A. Yes. Since I used to help them while we were imprisoned in
7 Crkvina, they wanted to repay me by paying for my freedom.
8 Q. Just on that, these two women, Marta and Blanka, they were from
9 Zasavica, were they?
10 A. Yes, both of them were from Zasavica.
11 Q. They were Croats?
12 A. Yes, Catholics.
13 Q. I understand they were also detained back in May with you in
14 Zasavica -- in Crkvina. I apologise.
15 A. Yes, both of them.
16 Q. So what did they use to pay for your freedom?
17 A. Blanka did not have anything she could offer, but her
18 sister-in-law, Marta, showed me a cistern of oil, a set of curtains, and
19 tried -- and said that she would try to use that and 100 or 200 German
20 marks to buy my freedom.
21 Q. This oil, is it cooking oil, or it's gas for a machine or for
22 cooking oil? What sort of oil was it?
23 A. Marta's house had central heating, so this was fuel, oil, for
24 central heating, what is normally used for that purposes.
25 Q. Thank you. Did Marta in fact offer this cistern of oil, the
1 curtains, and this spare money she had to get your name on the list?
2 A. Yes. After showing all this to me, she said that she would give
3 all that to buy my freedom, and she said that to buy her own freedom, she
4 would take something from the house of her brother-in-law, whatever was
5 left after plundering, in order to gain her own freedom.
6 Q. Did you witness her making the offer of these goods to Svetozar
7 Vasovic in exchange for being put on the list?
8 A. Naturally. Otherwise I would not have been put on the list. All
9 of that would be taken, but my name would not be put on the list.
10 Q. You were physically present yourself when this offer was made to
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And did you hear him accept the offer?
14 A. He said that the deal was good.
15 Q. Was your name put on the list?
16 A. Yes. My name was finally put on the list, or rather, it was put
17 on the list again.
18 Q. Were the names of Blanka and Marta also put on the list?
19 A. Just Marta's name.
20 Q. Who told you that your name was on the list and that you should
21 get ready for being exchanged?
22 A. On the eve of the exchange, Vasovic came and read out the names of
23 all of those who were to be exchanged the following day. So it was
25 Q. And on the following day, were you instructed to all gather at a
1 particular location in order to be exchanged?
2 A. Yes. We were told to come at 7.00 in the morning to a place near
3 the spot where the road turns to Zasavica, and they would come to get us.
4 Q. And when you went to that place in the morning, were you loaded
5 onto buses?
6 A. Yes. Sometime around 9.00 they came, and we finally started
7 boarding the vehicle.
8 Q. The buses that came, the vehicles, were they empty or did they
9 already have other people to be exchanged on them?
10 A. They were already almost full.
11 Q. And they were full with what kind of people? Women, children,
12 detainees from other locations? Who was on these buses?
13 A. There were detainees, the remaining detainees from the school,
14 from the TO; there were non-Serb citizens who had not been arrested but
15 their names were on the list; there was a truck full of dead bodies; and
16 there were us from Zasavica.
17 Q. Approximately how many from Zasavica were you that day?
18 A. I can't give you the exact number, but there were many of us.
19 Q. When you boarded the vehicles, where were you taken to? What was
20 your final destination point?
21 A. We were taken to a place in Croatia called Dragalici, near
22 Lipovac, in Croatia.
23 Q. When you arrived at Dragalici, did you see the defendant
24 Miroslav Tadic there?
25 A. Yes, I saw him there.
1 Q. Did you personally have any conversation or discussion with him,
2 or did you just see him present?
3 A. I simply saw him, but I didn't want to come to him.
4 Q. What did you have with you when you arrived at Dragalici? What
5 had you been able to rescue from your former life in Bosanski Samac?
6 A. I was wearing my shabby clothes, torn-up clothes. I had my Pegi
7 with me, with a bag with an album, and some clothes of my husband, and
8 that was all.
9 Q. The clothes you were wearing, were they clothes that you had
10 originally been arrested in bag in September?
11 A. Yes, exactly.
12 Q. And the album, this was a photograph album of memories from
13 Bosanski Samac; is that right?
14 A. Yes. I had the fortune of having Luka Culumovic take the bag, in
15 which there was a photo album. I have to tell you that this is the only
16 thing left to me after 35 years, and these photographs are the only thing
17 that document my life before the war.
18 Q. In fact, you had with you just the bag which Luka Culumovic had
19 given you when you were arrested in September, and I think you told the
20 Bench you had Pegi with you; is that right?
21 A. Yes. My Pegi was with me the entire time, and she was exchanged
22 in Dragalici as well. So I had this bag and Pegi.
23 Q. Were you allowed or permitted to go back to your apartment in
24 Bosanski Samac to collect some other personal items to take with you?
25 A. No, not for a moment such alternative was presented.
1 Q. Did you -- Mrs. Kapetanovic, would you say that on that day in
2 Dragalici that you had chosen of your free will to leave Bosanski Samac?
3 A. This is something I could never claim. Even nowadays, when they
4 asked me where I'm from, I say that I'm from Bosanski Samac, although that
5 is not true, not true any more. I would have never left Bosanski Samac on
6 my own free will.
7 Q. When you were exchanged in Dragalici, did you then cross into
9 A. No. I was simply transported through Croatia and taken to Bosnia.
10 Q. You were transported through Croatia, and where finally were you
11 brought to?
12 A. In the end, I crossed the river in a raft, and I was taken to
13 Domaljevac, where we were helped by the HVO army. From there, I was taken
14 to Grebnice, and I came to the front line.
15 Q. Did you receive some medical attention for the condition you were
16 diagnosed with when you were detained in Zasavica?
17 A. In Bosnia, I did not receive any kind of medical treatment, but in
18 view of the fact that my family was from Croatia, I managed to establish
19 contact with a doctor. I went to Zagreb, and there I finally realised how
20 weird life was. The doctor told me that my diagnosis was cancer and I was
21 given some three to five years to live.
22 Q. Did you finally, with your husband, obtain refugee status in a
23 European country? I think I can say Germany, since you told us that you
24 speak German now.
25 A. Yes. The following year, since I had Croatian papers, I had no
1 difficulties in going to the West. So I came to Germany, and the
2 following day upon my arrival, I had surgery in Germany. My husband also
3 came to Germany after fleeing the front line.
4 Q. After you moved to Germany, did you make attempts to reclaim your
5 property in Bosanski Samac municipality?
6 A. Yes. I attempted to do that. However, it was very difficult to
7 achieve it when living in Germany.
8 Q. Did you finally manage to get back your flat?
9 A. Yes. I finally managed to recover my flat, but only the flat.
10 Q. And when did you finally gain back possession of your flat?
11 A. I received the decision concerning the flat two years ago, but I
12 didn't manage to complete the process two years ago. I simply received
13 the decision concerning it.
14 Q. This decision entitled you or stated that you were the owner of
15 the apartment; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you then take steps to sell that apartment?
18 A. Yes. The sale of the apartments in Bosnia became legal, and I was
19 able to buy back my apartment and then sell it.
20 Q. You said that that was your -- you only got back the apartment.
21 Do I understand that you still have legal claim over a house in Bosanski
22 municipality that is the subject of a property dispute? Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, exactly so. My late husband and I built a house in a village
24 12 kilometres from Samac. The village is called Donja Slatina. And to
25 this day, I was unable to solve this issue with my house.
1 Q. Your flat, when you did get it back, what was the condition of the
2 flat? Were the possessions you had left behind still there, and was the
3 house capable of living in?
4 A. When I came, entered the first time this apartment again with my
5 husband, it was the first and the last time, it was with a heavy heart,
6 enter an apartment which was -- the door was opened by another person.
7 And in that apartment, I didn't find a single object, item, belonging to
8 me. Everything had been plundered. The lady in question had repainted
9 the apartment and brought in her own belongings. It was clear to me that
10 this wasn't a place for me any more.
11 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. It's 12.30. I understand
12 that's the time for the break, is it?
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will resume at 12.50 hours.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy. You're continuing.
17 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, the lady who had moved into your flat and
19 brought her possessions, was she of Serb ethnicity?
20 A. Yes, she is of Serb ethnicity.
21 Q. And did you -- she is the same person you sold your flat to after
22 you regained possession of it; is that right?
23 A. That's right. Precisely so.
24 Q. Did she demand some money from you?
25 A. Yes. She asked for money for the renovation of the apartment.
1 Q. And did you have to pay her?
2 A. She asked of me three and a half thousand German marks, because
3 she had repainted the apartment, had the apartment disinfected, made a
4 chimney. The apartment is located in the central part of a big building.
5 There was a lot of work, but although I wasn't interested in that. The
6 apartment, when I left it, was in order, was in excellent shape. I wasn't
7 interested in this. She didn't have to do all this work, and this figure
8 was absolutely too high.
9 Q. Did you have to pay her the three and a half thousand
11 A. In the negotiations and agreement on the price per square metre,
12 at the end I had to pay those three and a half thousand Deutschmarks.
13 Q. Did you receive any compensation for the loss of your personal
14 property or the use of your apartment after you had been expelled from
15 Bosanski Samac?
16 A. No. Something happened which was like a punishment to me. I
17 purchased that apartment, which I had to pay for a price. It was -- but I
18 already paid for it, but I had no documentation of that. Plus, I had to
19 pay the three and a half thousand Deutschmarks for the renovation of the
21 Q. You had paid for the flat before the conflict, had you?
22 A. It was -- we bought it the moment when we moved in and when the
23 building was completed. I don't recall the exact year.
24 Q. Did you ever see that man Svetozar Vasovic, who you had paid to
25 put you on the exchange list, again after you had been exchanged?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I see Defence counsel on his feet.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I object to this question because the
5 Prosecutor [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... Svetozar
6 Vasovic who you had paid? [Interpretation] The question concerning the
7 question of Svetozar Vasovic, it was -- he said that the deal was
8 acceptable. So here it's leading.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
10 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I think the witness has testified that
11 there was oil, curtains, and a number of hundred Deutschmarks given to
12 Mr. Vasovic to put her on the exchange list and she was present when that
13 took place. I can clarify.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What the Trial Chamber understood, was that
15 when the witness said that he had said that was acceptable, that means
16 that he accepted those goods and the money.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We didn't hear whether the witness
18 paid or that he took anything, accepted anything. But here in the
19 question that -- it's been already accepted. But during the direct
20 examination, we didn't hear that the witness has paid or that he has
21 accepted. But now in the question, it's been said that it's been paid.
22 It is this question that I object to.
23 MS. REIDY: I'll ask again.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, I don't understand the point of your
1 Anyway, Ms. Reidy, you can clear that with the witness.
2 MS. REIDY:
3 Q. I think you've understood the nature of the discussion going on,
4 Mrs. Kapetanovic. Did you pay Mr. Svetozar Vasovic to have your name put
5 on the exchange list?
6 A. The question of Mr. Vasovic is correct, and I stand behind that
7 which was happening then. So I was present at the deal which was
8 acceptable. But as this question has been raised, let me say this act
9 took place. I've been informed. I said that Blanka and Marta took the
10 initiative for my freedom. Marta went with me and Blanka stayed behind.
11 So the woman I contacted later on told me that this had been done. The
12 offer has been -- was acceptable and the offer was then also implemented.
13 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, you had said earlier on the record that you were
14 physically present when this offer was made to Mr. Vasovic and that he
15 said that was fine, the deal was done. Is that correct, that you were
16 there when all this was -- when that exchange was going on?
17 A. The discussion took place in front of me and the deal was
18 acceptable. That was the sentence expressed in front of me. The exchange
19 took place after I left, but the deal went through, and I was informed
20 that this was paid.
21 Q. And so who told you that the goods were handed over and the money
22 was paid?
23 A. I had the opportunity of talking to Blanka when I was set free,
24 and also when Blanka was free.
25 Q. And Blanka confirmed for you that the offer of the oil, the money,
1 and the curtains had in fact -- or the consideration of those items had in
2 fact been given and accepted by Mr. Vasovic?
3 A. Immediately after we left Zasavica.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, this Mr. Vasovic, you said that you saw him again
5 after you had been exchanged. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where did you see him?
8 A. I saw him in my lawyer's office.
9 Q. Was this in Bosanski Samac?
10 A. Yes, yes, in Bosanski Samac.
11 Q. And did you -- did he address you in any way or did he talk about
12 the exchange?
13 A. No. No. We did not talk about the exchange. That belongs to our
14 past. He only asked about my health; that was all.
15 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, in the period between you giving your testimony
16 here a few weeks ago and now, has any approach ever been made to one of
17 your relatives about your testimony?
18 A. Yes. That was during the time that I was here the first time.
19 Q. And who made an approach to your relatives?
20 A. The wife of Miroslav Tadic met at the market my mother-in-law,
21 came up to her and said -- she said, "Mirsada, do you know where your
22 daughter-in-law is?" And my mother-in-law, a very fragile woman, was a
23 bit scared. She said, "Yes, I do know." She turned and went back home
24 without doing her shopping. And she didn't go out of the house again.
25 Q. Is your mother-in-law living in Bosanski Samac?
1 A. Yes. My mother-in-law is living with her husband, who is
2 handicapped and is in a wheelchair.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, I have no further questions of this
5 witness at the moment. I do, however, have the outstanding matter of
6 three maps which currently have a status of -- three diagrams produced by
7 this witness, and they have currently an ID status, so I'd just like to
8 move that they get fully entered into evidence. Those are Prosecution
9 Exhibits P68, P69, and P70.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I just wanted confirmation from the registry
11 assistant that they're all -- they were marked for identification only.
12 That's P68, P69 and P70.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, Your Honours. P68 ID, P69 ID,
14 P70 ID, they are all diagrams and they remain as documents at this stage.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I want to find out from the Defence.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Your Honours, I'm not objecting of admission
17 of these schemes. There is only one thing. We would like just to clarify
18 with our colleagues from the Prosecution if these schemes were actually
19 made by the witness or according to witness's testimony, someone from the
20 Prosecution made actually those schemes. This is the only thing that I
21 would like to find out. We don't object to that, and we should --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. What is the position, Ms. Reidy?
23 MS. REIDY: They were drawn up on a computer, in fact by me,
24 according to the witness's instructions. There had been a hand diagram
25 drawn. I duplicated that on a computer for clarity's sake and asked the
1 witness whether or not that was an accurate recording of what she told me
2 to draft. So they were done according to instruction by -- but not --
3 JUDGE MUMBA: By the witness. Yes.
4 All right. Can we have them -- can we have confirmation that they
5 retain the same numbers as exhibits?
6 MS. REIDY:
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. They will retain the same
8 numbers and the ID will be removed to become exhibits. Thank you.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I only wanted to propose that the
10 Prosecution also distribute -- hands us the diagrams that have been
11 drafted by the Prosecution at the instruction of the witness. So it's --
12 to share it with us.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: They weren't given -- the Defence weren't given the
15 MS. REIDY: They were. These are the diagrams that were drafted
16 to the instructions of the witness.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because we all have them.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Not these ones. Maybe I didn't
19 express myself properly. I want to say that the diagrams which were
20 drafted by the witness herself, the sketches, that they be handed to us,
21 the Defence, if, of course, the Prosecution still has them in its
23 JUDGE MUMBA: What are they for? I thought Ms. Reidy had
24 explained how these -- the exhibits were actually drawn, upon the
25 instructions of the witness.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I understood that the witness first
2 drew by hand these diagrams and that then they were -- on the basis of
3 that, they were made on computer. But if that's not the case, then we
4 agree. But if that -- the diagrams were first made by hand by the
5 witness, we're interested in the position of the courtyard, and we'd be --
6 if such papers do exist, or still exist, we would like to get into
7 possession of it.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is of the view that that is a
10 matter between the parties, because --
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I understand, quite.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. The Trial Chamber believes that the
13 explanation by the Prosecution is sufficient and that the exhibits, P69,
14 P68, and P70 were properly drawn under the instructions of the witness.
15 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Your Honour, perhaps some facts escaped my mind
16 and my recollection, but when you were exchanged, you were taken on a bus
17 over the Sava River to the Croatian side. And as far as I have
18 understood, the front line, so to say, was directly on the other side of
19 the Sava River. And then you told us that when you arrived into Croatia,
20 you saw Mr. Tadic there, so to speak, among enemies. And I would be
21 interested to know who received you there, in which circumstances. Was
22 the Red Cross, for instance present there? And who transported you, as
23 you told us, from that very place which name I don't remember? You said
24 that you went to Grebnice and then further the into Bosnia. Who took care
25 of the transportation from the first place to Grebnice and then further
1 into Bosnia? Could you give us at least a broad view of what really
2 happened there.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour, but I have
4 to make a few corrections. The name of Grebnice turns up at the end. So
5 from Zasavica, we were brought in along the entire line of Bosanska
6 Gradiska, we had a break there, and the Serbs beat us on the buses. They
7 had the right to do that. And it was the last -- we had contact with
8 Bosna and that is where we crossed the River Sava, the only standing
9 bridge at the time. We crossed over to the town called Dragalici. In
10 Dragalici, the UNPROFOR was waiting for us, as was the International Red
11 Cross, the HVO, the army, the Croatian army in Bosnia, and the HV, the
12 Croatian army, and our guards came. So Mr. Miroslav Vasovic [As
13 interpreted], of the Serbian army, and Serb representatives. This was an
14 exchange one for one, although there were also some corpses here. How the
15 corpses were exchanged, I do not know, but I did see the direction in
16 which they were taken. The exchange involved some 100 civilians, women
17 and children, men, elderly men, a number that crossed to Croatia had to
18 correspond to the numbers of people entering Bosnia. So it was a mutual
20 In the moment that I became free, the question was raised by the
21 representative of UNPROFOR whether I'm being exchanged on a voluntary
22 basis or whether I would prefer to return to Bosnia. This was the
23 alternative put forward. Now, if I were to return to Bosnia, I was told,
24 I would be free there and I would go to the town, to the town of Samac. So
25 it would be freedom within the Samac camp town. And logically, was -- I
1 could hardly wait to cross over to the other side, where my family and
2 husband was. I said I'd be going to Croatia.
3 We then boarded the buses, organised by HV and HVO, the Croatian
4 army, and the Croatian army in Bosnia. And they took us from Dragalici,
5 via Okucani, Slavonski Brod, to the place, town, called Dubocica, and here
6 we disembarked from the buses, then walked to the ferry, a big ferry,
7 which was transporting vehicles and passengers. It was for the first time
8 the transport organised at such a level of a ferry which was dragged by a
9 rope, a cable.
10 On the other side, in Bosnia, only some 10 kilometres away from
11 Bosanski Samac, the HVO army was waiting for us, which made us board
12 trucks in smaller groups, and they took us to the school which was located
13 in Domaljevac. In this school, people were already there who were waiting
14 for their relatives who were to be exchanged. I had nobody there, because
15 my people were from Croatia, and Croatia there was only a transit.
16 Unfortunately, my husband at the time on that day was on the battlefield.
17 Therefore, from that school in Domaljevac, I was transported to the
18 battlefield where my husband was.
19 As a reception that evening, that night, we had the honour of the
20 gentlemen from Bosanski Samac were shelling us, treating us to such a
21 shelling that it was a question whether anybody would remain alive, any of
22 us would remain alive. This what I am saying, this was my first day of
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
25 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, may I just ask something of the witness
1 that arose from that, just a clarification for the transcript.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
3 MS. REIDY:
4 Q. You mentioned a name, Mrs. Kapetanovic, which came onto the record
5 as a Miroslav Vasovic, who was I think at the exchange. Could you tell
6 me: Was there somebody called Miroslav Vasovic or is this a mix-up
7 between Miroslav Tadic and Svetozar Vasovic?
8 A. It is possible that it was a slip of tongue when I mentioned the
9 name. The man who was in charge of all exchanges and who was present when
10 I was exchanged, so the man who was in charge of all this, was Miroslav
11 Tadic. It is possible that it was a slip of tongue on my part.
12 Q. Just to clarify: The Miroslav Tadic is the same Miroslav Tadic,
13 the defendant in this case, who you identified when you started your
15 A. Absolutely the same man.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honours. On behalf of Mr. Zaric's
18 Defence, I will conduct the cross-examination.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mrs. Kapetanovic. My name is
22 Aleksandar Lazarevic. I am an attorney. And on behalf of the Defence
23 team of Mr. Simo Zaric, I will conduct the cross-examination.
24 Before I alert you to some of the things that have to be borne in
25 mind during cross-examination, let me please, on my behalf and on behalf
1 of my client, express the regret we feel over all of the things that you
2 and your family had to suffer during the war.
3 The questions I'm going to put during the cross-examination are
4 generally formulated in such a way as to allow you to reply with a yes or
5 no. If you do not know an answer to any of the questions put to you, then
6 please tell us so, and if a question is unclear, then again, please tell
7 us so and then I will try to reformulate the question in a clearer manner.
8 I am telling you all this so that we can conduct cross-examination in an
9 efficient manner.
10 Just one more thing I want to alert you to, and this pertains to
11 interpreting, is as follows: You have been answering questions of
12 Ms. Reidy so far. She was addressing you in English, you were replying in
13 B/C/S, so there was no problem there. But since you and I speak the same
14 language, in order to avoid any overlapping and in order to give enough
15 time for interpreters to interpret, then please wait for me to finish my
16 question and then, after making a slight pause, answer the question
17 please. You and I understand each other very well, but the interpreters
18 have to interpret. So that's all I have to say, and if you don't mind, I
19 will start the cross-examination now.
20 Mrs. Kapetanovic, I would like to ask you a few questions that
21 have to do with the time period before April 16th and 17th. I would start
22 with an incident that you mentioned during your examination-in-chief and
23 that had to do with the fact that during the beginning of 1992 you went
24 out frequently with your then boyfriend and now husband and that you
25 frequented the cafe called Valentino. Do you remember telling us about
2 A. Yes, I remember that period very well, and I remember very well
3 that I spoke about it.
4 Q. Thank you very much. I am interested in an event which took place
5 on February 14th, 1992. Perhaps this date doesn't mean much to you now,
6 but that was the day when a tragedy occurred in the cafe Valentino, in
7 which Bobic Enver and Hadzialijagic Mensur [phoen], two young men, played
8 with a hand grenade and as a result of that were killed. Do you know of
9 this incident that I'm mentioning now?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Well, I put my question in such a way as to elicit just a yes or
12 no from you, so just please answer in such terms.
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you very much. Did you -- were you personally present at
15 the time in the cafe Valentino?
16 A. It was on St. Valentine's Day, and I spent that day with my
17 husband in the apartment, so I wasn't present then, but later on I learned
18 what took place there.
19 Q. So after this event, you went to the SUP building, and a large
20 number of people had assembled there; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And among other people, there was also an uncle of Hadzialijagic
23 Mensur. His name was Safet Hadzialijagic, and his nickname was Coner; is
24 that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. There were some indications there implying that the Serbs from the
2 JNA allegedly were to blame for that incident; is that right? Among the
3 people assembled there you heard such insinuations, didn't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. However, Mr. Safet Hadzialijagic at that point came out and calmed
6 down the people in front of the SUP building by telling them that the
7 police was doing its work and that this was apparently a tragic event,
9 A. Well, he attempted to calm people.
10 Q. But after that, most of the people left the plateau in front of
11 the SUP building and the situation calmed down; isn't that so?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kapetanovic. That's all I wanted to ask you
14 regarding this event, because you told us that at that time you frequently
15 visited this cafe.
16 Mrs. Kapetanovic, I wanted to ask you something, the reference to
17 which I found in your statement given to the OTP in 2002. I found
18 something, and if you can just please tell me whether this is true or
19 not. When speaking about my client, Mr. Zaric, you said that he was your
20 neighbour and that he was on friendly terms with you and that he used to
21 address you with the nickname Sele, which, if translated, would mean
22 that he addressed you with "sister" or something along those lines. Can
23 you confirm that?
24 A. Certainly.
25 Q. And as you probably know, his sister's name was also Jelena, so
1 that was probably what prompted him to address you with this term, because
2 you had the same name as his sister.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you very much. Madam, during your testimony here, you
5 mentioned the 4th Detachment on many occasions, on numerous occasions. I
6 would like to hear now whether you and I and the rest of us here have the
7 same understanding of what is actually is, what kind of an entity it is.
8 Because of that, I will ask you several questions concerning the 4th
10 This is a question where you can't give me a yes or no answer, but
11 please tell me: What do you understand under the term "4th Detachment"?
12 A. The 4th Detachment was something quite new that appeared in
13 Bosanski Samac. I don't know why it was called the 4th Detachment;
14 however, I know what kind of ideas are behind it, and I knew a lot about
15 the 4th Detachment even before the war broke out.
16 Q. All right. Well, let's take it point by point, then. Tell me,
17 please: Do you know when the 4th Detachment was founded?
18 A. I don't know the exact date. I wasn't a member of the 4th
20 Q. Thank you. Madam Kapetanovic, do you know what the 4th
21 Detachment -- what the 1st Detachment is?
22 A. No. We never heard that mentioned in Samac.
23 Q. What about the 2nd, 3rd, and 5th Detachment? Do you know anything
24 about that?
25 A. No, but I know that the 4th Detachment was in charge of Samac.
1 Later on, I heard about the 6th Detachment and the others you have
2 mentioned, but then, at that time, I only knew about the 4th
3 Detachment and the tasks it had regarding Samac.
4 Q. Let me ask you, then, whether you know what the 17th Tactical
5 Group is.
6 A. No. I was never interested in such things, and I don't think I am
8 Q. All right. Well, I will not insist on it, then.
9 Do you know somebody named Radovan Antic, from Bosanski Samac?
10 A. Yes. He was my teacher.
11 Q. Do you know whether he held some kind of office in the 4th
13 A. Yes, I know about that.
14 Q. Well, do you know what was his function, his office?
15 A. He headed the 4th Detachment.
16 Q. I will ask you also whether you know Jovo Savic. Do you know
17 that man from Samac?
18 A. I personally never had contact with him, but I do know him.
19 Q. All right. Well, we will not go further into that, then.
20 Let me ask you just one more thing. Do you know when the 4th
21 Detachment ceased to exist?
22 A. When that happened, I was already at liberty, so I don't know the
24 Q. Madam, based on the information that we have here, based on
25 numerous testimonies and the documents we have, the 4th Detachment ceased
1 to exist, at the latest, on the 18th of May, 1992, when the army of
2 Republika Srpska was established and when it was transformed into the 5th
3 Battalion, among other formations. Do you know about this fact?
4 A. Probably due to that, there was frequently inconsistencies in my
5 testimony when I spoke about the police and the army. The 4th Detachment
6 had done its job, and that's probably the reason why it ceased to exist.
7 Q. Well, that is probably your opinion.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. This witness had said that she didn't know
9 when the 4th Detachment ceased to exist.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I'm not going to ask her more about this
11 topic, about how long it lasted and what -- she doesn't have, of course,
12 any military experience, any military knowledge, but anyway, she mentioned
13 the 4th Detachment many times, so I was just challenging what was actually
14 her knowledge about this topic.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. I would like to ask you about some people for whom you have stated
18 that they were members of the 4th Detachment. Cakara, this is the
19 nickname that you used, is that perhaps somebody called Sejdic Naser?
20 A. Precisely so.
21 Q. Sejdic Naser was an active policeman before the war in Bosanski
22 Samac; is that right?
23 A. Exactly right.
24 Q. Another name is Caba. You also mentioned this name during your
25 direct examination here. Is that somebody called Ibrahim Trakosevic, in
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Was this man an active policeman before the war as well?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Based on their names, I would say that both of them were Muslims.
6 Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When you spoke about how you were taken to Crkvina, you mentioned
9 the name of Ranko Popovic. Do you remember that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you know this man Ranko Popovic before the war?
12 A. I knew him very well.
13 Q. Was he the most responsible person there in Crkvina? What was
14 your impression?
15 A. Savo Cancarevic was the man in charge in Crkvina.
16 Q. Well, that name is the name of a man I wanted to ask you too.
17 Savo Cancarevic was a policeman before the war as well; isn't that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And Simo Krunic, whom we have mentioned today, was also a
20 policeman; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Very well, then, madam. Now, when I analyse all this that I have
23 asked you about - Cakara, Caba, Cancarvic, Popovic, Simo Krunic - all of
24 these people used to be policemen before the war; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And all of these people, starting on the 16th and on, after the
2 war broke out, continued working in the public security station in Samac,
3 in the Serbian police; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And all of these people, in different ways, were included or
6 involved in arresting you, taking you to Crkvina, bringing you back from
7 Crkvina, taking you to Zasavica, and guarding you in Zasavica; isn't that
9 A. Mr. Lazarevic, this is only a small fragment of people that were
10 involved in these arrests. Mr. Lazarevic, I mentioned these names only
11 because I knew them the best. In my statement, I said that there were
12 some four to five other people whose names I did not mention.
13 Q. I have to apologise, madam. I do not wish to impute anything to
14 you. All I asked is whether what I told you was true. You confirmed
15 that, and it is a fact that the five of them could not have accomplished
16 that alone, that other people must have been involved. Don't you agree
17 with that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Mrs. Kapetanovic, you gave evidence here
20 about where your apartment was located. The diagram we received was drawn
21 up pursuant to your instructions by the Prosecution. And now I would like
22 to go back to that diagram for a moment, please.
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... assistance of
24 Mr. Usher. I need document P68. It is not ID any more. Yes. We made a
25 decision in this respect.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Kapetanovic, please take a good look at this
2 sketch, and after having done so, please put it on the ELMO which is to
3 your right?
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... benefit of
5 our clients I would like to have it put on the ELMO.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It will be put on the ELMO.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, we examined this sketch during your
9 examination-in-chief. Was this sketch drawn up in accordance with your
10 instruction? Yes or no, please.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I am now interested in the building itself, the so-called Number
13 62. Was it drawn in accordance with your instructions?
14 A. The position of the building, yes. As to the entrances, I'm not
15 sure right now. Perhaps the doors could be moved to the left or to the
17 Q. Well, we're not interested in very specific details, just in
18 general. So according to what I can see on this sketch, this building has
19 seven entrances; isn't that right?
20 A. Yes. It says "7" here.
21 Q. Is that what you are claiming, that the building Number 62 has
22 seven entrances?
23 A. For some reason I always think that this building had eight
24 entrances, but I was never really interested in that, so I don't know for
1 Q. So do you allow for the possibility that in addition to these
2 seven, there is an eighth entrance as well?
3 A. Yes, it is possible.
4 Q. So there is a possibility, then, that this sketch is not correct?
5 A. Sir, the position and the contours of the building are absolutely
7 Q. Well, I'm now talking about the sketch in general. I'm not
8 questioning the position and I'm not questioning whether the building is
9 an L-shaped one. I'm simply talking about the general accuracy of this
11 A. Well, if you mean the entrances, I can tell you that yes, it is
12 possible that the entrances were not exactly as drawn here, but I know the
13 building very well, because I lived there.
14 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... it's 1345.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll adjourn and continue tomorrow at 0900
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of
19 July 2002, at 9.00 a.m.