1 Tuesday, 2 July 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo
9 Zaric. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic. Cross-examination.
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
12 WITNESS: JELENA KAPETANOVIC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]
15 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Kapetanovic. As you probably remember,
16 yesterday we commenced our cross-examination, and we left it off with the
17 sketches. And we agreed that it was possible that there were actually
18 eight entrances into your apartment building, but as far as I'm concerned,
19 we can close that topic. I would like to check something else with you.
20 You spoke about where the apartment of Simo Zaric was located, and this
21 can be found in transcript on page 8887, line 20 and 21. And I remember
22 you saying that the apartment was on the third floor, which means that if
23 we count the ground floor as the first floor, that means that his
24 apartment was actually on the fourth floor. Is that right?
25 A. If Mr. Simic and I lived on the same floor, it's what we call
1 third floor, including the ground floor. So the ground floor, first
2 floor, second, third floor. This is how we counted, as living on the
3 third floor.
4 Q. Madam Kapetanovic, let's clarify just one thing. If I heard you
5 correctly, you mentioned Mr. Simic, and I am talking about Mr. Zaric. So
6 let's just make sure that we have no misunderstanding there. We are
7 talking about Mr. Zaric. Is that right?
8 A. Yes, we are talking about my neighbour Mr. Zaric.
9 Q. Very well. So I checked the transcript again, page 8887, and in
10 line 20 and 21 - I'm saying this for my friends - it says as follows: [In
11 English] [Previous translation continues] "... entrance. I don't know
12 the apartment number, but if we take into consideration that we begin with
13 ground floor, he was on the third floor, but it was the fourth landing."
14 Then after that there was a question: "So I understand, then,
15 that he was -- his apartment would have been one level higher than yours.
16 Is that correct?"
17 That was the question of the Prosecution. And you answered: "I
18 believe it is correct."
19 And you -- "I must also add that I never visited Mr. Zaric."
20 [Interpretation] So you see, Mrs. Kapetanovic, the transcript is
21 fairly clear regarding this, so we should call this third floor and fourth
22 level. And this is exactly what the Prosecutor asked you, whether his
23 apartment was one level above yours, and you confirmed that to the
24 Prosecutor. So are you adhering to your previous statement or would you
25 like to make some corrections?
1 A. In view of the fact that in my previous testimony I used the word
2 "I think" or "I believe," and I'm perfectly clear on this today, if I go
3 back ten years, when I lived in that apartment, I can tell you that I
4 remember all of the entrances very well, albeit I don't like to remember
5 them, and I can correct my previous hesitation when I said "I think," "I
6 believe" and confirm that now it was on the same level as my apartment,
7 level 4.
8 Q. Madam, so if I understood you correctly, you remain by what you
9 stated here previously, third floor, fourth level.
10 A. I am repeating here that it was third floor, the same level as my
11 apartment. We had the ground floor in our entrance, and there was a young
12 man named Hasan who lived on the ground floor. On the first floor there
13 was a woman called Mina living, and above her was a very large apartment
14 of Mr. Simo Zaric. Count it any way you want, but this is what the order
15 of the apartment was.
16 Q. All right. So according to what you just told us, Mr. Simo
17 Zaric's apartment was on the second floor; is that what you're trying to
19 A. Yes. Second floor, third level.
20 Q. Very well, madam. Since transcript was not entirely clear, I
21 think we clarified it perfectly now.
22 This entrance that you mentioned in the apartment building number
23 62, was it entrance -- the entrance with the greatest number of
24 apartments? Because there were apartments on both sides of the entrance.
25 A. That segment of the building has five entrances. I don't know how
1 I came to forget the entrance in which my very good friend lived,
2 Mr. Halilovic Dedo. You know that for a while I took shelter in the
3 basement of his mother-in-law. So that part of the building has the
4 greatest number of entrances, and my part of the building has three
5 entrances. If I had a sketch here, I could show it all to you.
6 Q. All right. Well, I think that we clarified this enough. I talked
7 about it to Mr. Zaric, using the record in the transcript, based on your
8 testimony, and there were some things that were not correct, but I believe
9 that we clarified all of that now, including this entrance number 8 in
10 which Dedo Halilovic's apartment was and the entrance in which the
11 apartment of Mr. Zaric was. So that is all clear now.
12 Mrs. Kapetanovic, when we listened to you giving testimony here,
13 we heard you describe the episode in which you saw the accused here,
14 Mr. Simic and Mr. Zaric, and you said that you did not see them enter the
15 apartment of Mr. Zaric; you just saw them in the entrance and assumed that
16 they were going to visit Mr. Zaric in his apartment. I suppose that you
17 concluded this based on the fact that there were members of the same party
18 and the same unit, and this can be found on transcript page 8887, lines 2
19 and 3. And then later on, when asked by the Prosecutor, you stated this
20 again, on page 8889 of the transcript, lines 19 and 21.
21 So if I understood you correctly, you saw -- or you concluded that
22 Mr. Simic and Mr. Tadic went to visit Mr. Zaric in his apartment, and you
23 concluded this based on the fact that they belonged to the same party and
24 to the same unit; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, sir. You are asking me whether I made a conclusion of that
1 sort. Now, would you make a conclusion along the following lines: My
2 husband used to play an instrument, and if there were other musicians
3 entering the apartment, would you conclude that they went to see my
4 husband as well?
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: I will do my best to control the witness and to --
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness, Mrs. Kapetanovic, you are here to
7 answer questions from counsel, and do not ask counsel any questions,
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. All right, madam. Well, my question was along the following
11 lines: Did you make that conclusion based on the fact that they belonged
12 to the same party and to the same unit?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. Now, with respect to that fact, we have a number of
15 contradictory information, both the ones existing in this Tribunal and the
16 ones that emerged from the testimony of other witnesses. Let's take the
17 first point first. Were they members of the same party? Based on what
18 you said, I conclude that you believe that Mr. Zaric was a member of the
19 SDS; is that right?
20 A. Based on what happened later on, I concluded that their ideas were
21 the same, and what the political party of each of them was called, I don't
22 know that.
23 Q. Madam, all I wanted to ask you, whether you concluded that
24 Mr. Simo Zaric was a member of the SDS.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Just one more question regarding the unit. I believe that you had
2 in mind the 4th Detachment. Is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Madam, based on your answer, I conclude that you believed
5 Mr. Blagoje Simic to be a member of the 4th Detachment.
6 A. Blagoje Simic at that time was the most important man in town.
7 Q. Madam, all I'm interested in is the 4th Detachment. Did you
8 conclude that Blagoje Simic was the member of the 4th Detachment?
9 A. I supposed he was. I assumed he was.
10 Q. Well, now we are obviously referring to the time before April
11 17th, so you assumed that Blagoje Simic was a member of the 4th
12 Detachment? Yes or no, please.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Madam, I talked to my client regarding these facts, and I received
15 the following information from him: First, he claims that he has never
16 been a member of the SDS but rather of the SDP. Second, he claims that
17 Blagoje Simic was never a member of the 4th Detachment, that the physician
18 of the 4th Detachment was Mr. Sisic. And third, he claims that Blagoje
19 Simic never entered his apartment, nor did Miroslav Tadic. My client says
20 that he met with Mr. Tadic frequently, that they saw each other at the
21 Cafe AS, but his apartment was never entered, either by Mr. Simic or by
22 Mr. Tadic. So can you continue to claim what you have claimed before?
23 A. I said that I never saw anybody entering the apartment of Simo
25 Q. Thank you very much. Another question that has to do with it as
1 well. Do you know that Mr. Blagoje Simic also lived in this apartment
2 building number 62?
3 A. Yes. I saw him there.
4 Q. But you don't know that he actually resided in that apartment
5 building. He moved there somewhere in 1990, 1991.
6 A. In view of the fact that I never entered the entrance 7, I only
7 went to entrance 8, I don't know the residents of that -- or tenants of
8 that entrance.
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: It looks that I was not -- one part of my question
10 was not interpreted. I said entrance number 7. It was building number
11 62, and then entrance number 7.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. All right. So you've completed it now.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: But I believe that I don't need further
14 clarification from the witness, because she already answered that she was
15 not familiar with that fact.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Madam, I have just a few more questions. Your then boyfriend and
19 current husband, Esref, can you confirm that before the war, before April
20 17th, Mr. Simo Zaric was a friend of his father and his grandfather, that
21 they were on very friendly, close terms?
22 A. Yes, I believe that they were.
23 Q. And very briefly: You already described to us the incident in
24 which your then boyfriend and current husband came to see you and that he
25 then asked Mr. Zaric to help you, to which Mr. Zaric replied that he was
1 unable to help. Can you confirm that Mr. Zaric at that time told to your
2 boyfriend that he was not authorised to do anything with respect to that?
3 Can you remember that or not? If you cannot, just please say so.
4 A. My husband went to see him and asked for help. That is true. I
5 remember that he said that Simo was not in the situation to be able to
6 help. I don't remember him mentioning anything about being authorised,
7 but all of us know what kind of authorities Mr. Zaric had at the time.
8 Q. Madam, I asked you yesterday about this, and this will be my last
9 question. Yesterday we mentioned the 4th Detachment quite a bit. We also
10 mentioned the pheasant farm, and you, during your testimony, mentioned
11 many other things. I just wanted to clarify one more matter. Perhaps
12 this is not very important to you whether somebody is a member of the 2nd,
13 3rd, 4th, or 5th Detachment, but it's a very important matter here before
14 this Trial Chamber.
15 Can you tell me, please: At the pheasant farm, and in other
16 places where there were checkpoints of the 4th Detachment, how did you
17 know that those were members of the 4th Detachment manning those
18 checkpoints and not members of the 2nd, 3rd, or 5th Detachment?
19 A. Those were people from the vicinity of Samac, from its environs.
20 Q. Well, I think that that's enough in terms of an answer, because to
21 you it was probably very important whether the people were from Samac or
22 from its surrounding areas. So at those checkpoints, the people that were
23 manning them were actually from the surrounding areas?
24 A. No. At the checkpoint in Zasavica camp, at the entrance, there
25 was Nenad Lukic, his cousin Lukic, and other gentlemen from Bosanski
2 Q. Madam, we are confusing some things. I didn't ask you
3 specifically about the checkpoint at Zasavica. I asked you about the road
4 to Odzak. There were checkpoints there, and you asked [As interpreted]
5 that some were manned by the men from Krajina and some by the members of
6 the 4th Detachment.
7 A. You reminded me about it. The man who was manning the checkpoint
8 at Odzak was a policeman from Bosanski Samac, Mirko, and I cannot remember
9 his last name.
10 Q. Was it Mirko Pavic, by any chance?
11 A. Well, I have to apologise. I cannot recall his last name at this
12 very moment, but I will recall it a bit later on. It was a policeman from
13 Bosanski Samac. It is possible that his last name was Pavic, although I
14 can't claim it with certainty. But he was a policeman from Bosanski
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise, Your Honour.
17 Q. [Interpretation] No, madam. We are not challenging that. We are
18 not challenging any of that. I'm just referring to the checkpoints. I'm
19 not really interested in who manned them. You spoke about the fact that
20 there was the zone of responsibility for the 4th Detachment, so I'm not
21 interested in specific people who were there but somebody was in charge in
22 Odzak and somebody was in charge elsewhere, but you believe that people in
23 charge there were not from Samac. Is that right?
24 A. Yes. Savo Cancarevic was in charge of the checkpoint near the
25 camp in Crkvina.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
2 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I've been trying to follow this, and I
3 don't want to interrupt, but now I'm -- I'm very confused. We have at
4 least on the English transcript a lot of talking about checkpoints there,
5 checkpoints here, who was manning them, then I'm not really interested in
6 who manned them, and I can't follow now which checkpoint we're talking
7 about. "You believe people in charge there were not from Samac." Again,
8 I just ask Mr. Lazarevic to be more clear on which checkpoints he's
9 talking about because when the witness answers, "Well in Odzak they were
10 there," and he says, "Oh, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about
11 something else." And finally I have to the stage where I really have no
12 idea any longer which checkpoints where we're talking about.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: So at least one -- the answer for the checkpoint
14 near the camp in Crkvina is clear. The witness has said it was Savo
16 MS. REIDY: That and the one at Odzak.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we make clear the one at Odzak.
18 MS. REIDY: Or whichever one Mr. Lazarevic is asking. I think the
19 witness has always been very clear in her answer about which checkpoint
20 she is talking about. I'm more concerned about which checkpoints
21 Mr. Lazarevic is asking about. He hasn't, to the best of my knowledge,
22 not specified any location any time he's put a question.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
24 Mr. Lazarevic, you heard the Prosecution's --
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Yes. I have just read what my learned
1 colleague from the Prosecution said.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you clear that part of the evidence?
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: It was the checkpoint at the pheasant area that
4 this witness was talking about.
5 Q. [Interpretation] All right, madam. Well, let's try to elicit yes
6 or no answers from you and I will try to put my questions accordingly.
7 Madam, the pheasant farm, was it located on the territory of Odzak
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At the checkpoint near the pheasant farm, was it the man from
11 Krajina, members of that army, who controlled that checkpoint?
12 A. Yes. Just that checkpoint out of all of the rest.
13 Q. Just one more question. The entire time we covered here, you know
14 which period we had in mind, we in fact referred to the Army of Republika
15 Srpska; isn't that right?
16 A. What do you mean when you say "the entire time"?
17 Q. Well, madam, I have in mind the time period when you went to do
18 forced labour.
19 A. Yes. At that time it was the army, but I don't know whose army it
20 was. Everybody thought themselves to be very important and more important
21 than the others, so I didn't really pay much attention to whom did they
22 actually belong.
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
24 questions for the witness.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: The next counsel, if any. Mr. Krgovic.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mrs. Kapetanovic. My name is
3 Dragan Krgovic, and on behalf of the Defence team of Mr. Miroslav Tadic, I
4 will be putting some questions to you. Just like my colleague Lazarevic,
5 I will try to formulate my questions in such a way as to allow you to give
6 me a yes or no reply. If you cannot answer a question, just please say
7 so, or if you do not remember some details, again feel free to tell us,
8 and if any explanations are needed, then that can be covered in the
9 re-direct with the Prosecution.
10 Mrs. Kapetanovic, on the 4th of June, you answered questions put
11 to you by the Prosecution, and at that time you mentioned that you
12 frequently passed by the Cafe AS when going from your apartment to the
13 downtown area. Do you remember stating that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You also mentioned the fact that the wife of Mr. Miroslav Tadic
16 was the owner of the shop that you frequented and that that shop was by
17 the Cafe AS. Do you remember that?
18 A. Yes. The shop was sometime before the developments.
19 Q. Was it in March or April 1992?
20 A. No, not at that time period.
21 Q. So as I understood you, because in the transcript of the 4th of
22 June, 2002, from that answer, we could infer that the shop worked at the
23 time, and next to the shop, that Mr. Tadic kept -- had the Cafe AS. So
24 let us clear that up. So the shop in April -- March/April 1992 didn't
1 A. No, I believe it was a gambling casino.
2 Q. Are you speaking of Cafe AS or the premises next to Cafe AS?
3 A. As far as I remember, I said that I never entered into the Cafe
5 Q. But you knew that there was a casino there?
6 A. I've never been in the casino, but I heard about it.
7 Q. I'm interested in the shop. Was it in the Cafe AS before the
8 premises were transformed in the cafe, or was the Cafe AS next to the
10 A. As far as I remember, I stated that I, prior to the war, didn't
11 like to pass by Cafe AS. Namely, I didn't even enter these premises.
12 Q. But you liked to go to the shop?
13 A. In the period when the situation was normal. I don't think that I
14 stated which period.
15 Q. Well, we'll go back to what you stated on the 4th of June. That
16 was page 8891?
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just clarify this instead of going back and
18 forth? I'll ask the witness.
19 When -- which period did you frequent this shop next to Cafe AS?
20 Was it before March/April 1992 or any other time? Because you're saying
21 that -- it seems to me there was a specified period, before March and
22 April 1992. Can you just clarify that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It refers to the period prior
24 to 1992. I'm speaking of the time of normality, of a normal life in our
25 town. I'm speaking of the period when groups were appearing of aliens,
1 people who were not from Samac, and the period when I didn't like passing
2 by. And so that I don't have an insight into what Mr. Tadic possessed.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: So is it clear, then, or are you saying that you
4 used to frequent this shop before the beginning of 1992?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. That was
8 precisely what I wanted to ask, because in the question of the
9 Prosecution, when the Prosecution asked whether she liked and was passing
10 by at that period, the answer was that she liked going to the shop.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I preferred going to a shop that was
12 behind the building, by the family of -- the Tadic family. It was a
13 different shop. I was referring to that.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Now I'd like to ask you something about the guests, the patrons of
16 Cafe AS. Do you remember saying that you knew the patrons were members of
17 the 4th Detachment?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that were also the people sitting in the garden of Cafe AS?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was it usual that people -- that patrons sit in a cafe, they would
22 sit there if they were workers and they would sit in the nearby cafes at
23 the breaks?
24 A. Yes, it can be so, but we also had our favourite spots, including
1 Q. Madam Kapetanovic, do you know that right across the street from
2 Cafe AS the so-called Sit building, the textile industry building was
3 right across there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. As you were passing by on a daily basis, do you remember that in
6 the period of March, April, and even prior to that, in front of the Sit
7 building, there was a Yugoslav flag was flying on the building?
8 A. Many of us tried at the time to be good Yugoslavs, and possibly
9 there was this flag flying. And I never had anything against that flag.
10 Q. Now, concerning your personal knowledge, do you know that the 4th
11 Detachment's headquarters were in the Sit building?
12 A. At this point in time, I can only say what I know, or exclusively
13 that what I had seen.
14 Q. And do you know --
15 A. Only what I had seen, if that is what interests you.
16 Q. Do you know that in the Sit factory, the headquarters of the 4th
17 Detachment were located?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You have mentioned that passing by the AS cafe, you observed
20 patrons who were people not from Samac.
21 A. Yes. I remember saying that.
22 Q. Did you hear any -- how they talked, whether they were using the
24 A. Yes. The Ekavian, yes.
25 Q. To the Prosecutor, you said that it was in March and April 1992.
1 Do you remember saying that?
2 A. It was the period prior to the war. It could refer to these two
4 Q. And possibly also earlier?
5 A. Earlier, I did not notice, observe such things. We lived more
7 Q. I'm thinking January, February, March, so it would be these -- the
8 first three months of the year.
9 A. Yes. January, February, obviously nobody would be sitting outside
10 on the terrace, so I didn't notice that.
11 Q. Did you observe this beginning or the end of March?
12 A. I am sure they were there in front of -- before the war,
13 immediately, but how long it was, I wouldn't know, and at a certain point
14 it was such an important topic for all of us.
15 Q. Do you know that the Cafe AS there was a casino? You said you
16 heard about that. Do you know that people from Yugoslavia and abroad,
17 card players, would come and play here, and the gamblers --
18 A. The gamblers were then people who were shelling me.
19 Q. You said that it was unpleasant for you to pass by the Cafe AS.
20 How long was this period of unpleasantness for you? A month, two months,
21 that people were commenting when you were passing by?
22 A. It refers to the period prior to the war, two weeks, 20 days. I
23 didn't count the days.
24 Q. You also mentioned to the Prosecutor that you saw these people on
25 the terrace in the morning, in the afternoon, and in the evening,
1 throughout the day. Do you recall saying that?
2 A. Yes. Only -- yes. Only the faces would change.
3 Q. These were people of middle age, middle-aged people. Do you
4 remember saying that?
5 A. This age of mine, what do I say -- what do I mean by saying
6 "middle-aged people"? I believe these were able people, able to fight,
8 Q. I'm 40. Would I belong to the category of middle-aged?
9 A. You're young and you certainly belong in that category.
10 Q. Madam, we will pass on to another topic, the evening of the 16th,
11 on the 17th of April, 1992. In the night on the 16th, 17th, you stated to
12 the Prosecutor that the information concerning what was happening in
13 Samac, that you received that, the information, from your neighbours. Do
14 you remember stating that?
15 A. I remember the entire scene, and this, if I mention this, it's
16 only a part of the entire scene.
17 Q. I'm only asking about how you received the information, about
18 receiving the information, and this is the topic of my questions.
19 A. The information was -- or the discussion, rather, was who will
20 attack Samac.
21 Q. You've already stated that to the Prosecutor. You explained that
22 part. I'm only interested in some other aspects you mentioned and some
23 clarifications. Namely, you said you didn't have a telephone in the
24 apartment and that you used Salko Porobic's telephone.
25 A. Absolutely correct.
1 Q. You also stated that you heard that in Samac battles were under
2 way between the 4th Detachment, special units, and people who wished to
3 save the town and who belonged to the SDA. Do you remember -- do you
4 recall stating that?
5 A. I believe that you've placed them all in the same category, and
6 something isn't right in how you ranked them.
7 Q. You said that the fighting was going on between the 4th Detachment
8 and the specialised units, on the one hand, and the people who wished to
9 save the town and who belonged to the SDA. And if I correctly interpreted
10 your words. That was on page 8896.
11 A. I remember stating that. In a mildly, moderately put sentence, I
12 might have stated it in this way.
13 Q. 8898. I will read this sentence [In English] [Previous
14 translation continues] ... party. [Interpretation] This is what you
16 A. Most of the fighters belonged to that party, but that wasn't the
17 priority. The defenders were a handful of them.
18 Q. Do you recall stating that?
19 A. If it's written there, then I did.
20 Q. Salko Porobic was a member --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you're not waiting for the interpretation
22 to be completed. Please remember that. You can repeat your question,
23 because it wasn't completed.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Salko Porobic was a member of that unit, wasn't he?
1 A. Do you believe member of that party?
2 Q. No. The unit which fought in that battle, in the combat.
3 A. He never participated in combat.
4 Q. I'm saying in combat for the defence of the town.
5 A. Salko Porobic was a member of SDA. He never concealed that. And
6 at his age, he was certainly -- he wasn't fit to fight.
7 Q. Do you know that he was a member of the Territorial Defence?
8 A. Well, he didn't boast about it. I wasn't interested. I didn't
9 ask, nor do I know about that.
10 Q. Did he convey this information about the combat taking place
11 between the 4th Detachment, the special units, and a group of citizens,
12 inhabitants, members of the SDA?
13 A. This knowledge was imparted to me in the form of a mosaic from the
14 tenants living in my building of all nationalities.
15 Q. What did Salko impart to you?
16 A. That what he found out by telephone, that there was serious
17 combat, heavy battles, that people have been killed, that the situation is
18 serious, and that there's no way out of Samac. And sir, I believe that
19 that was my statement.
20 Q. Did Salko receive this information from his -- from the members of
21 his party? Did he say anything in that connection?
22 A. Salko Porobic is an inhabitant with a big family, numerous family
23 in that town, who knows everyone, and everybody knows him.
24 Q. I only asked about the source of information. Please, yes or no.
25 A. No.
1 Q. Madam, you were in good relations with Salko Porobic and his
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Salko Porobic told you that he took some rifles from the
5 association of the handicapped, whose member he was.
6 A. No.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
8 MS. REIDY: I'd be very grateful to my learned colleague if he
9 could tell me if he is now quoting from a transcript something the witness
10 has claimed to have said in her prior testimony for the Bench, because I
11 don't recall this being part of the record. And counsel seems to have put
12 to her that she claims that Salko had told her --
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. Yes.
14 MS. REIDY: And I have no recollection of it. And if it is in the
15 record and I just can't remember it, I'd like to be told where so that I
16 can confirm it.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
19 explain. These are questions which are based on Rule 90(H). 90(H), where
20 questions can be -- and I quote -- that the witness can make an important
21 statement for the issue. She also mentioned, although this wasn't in the
22 examination-in-chief, we believe that this can enter into the
23 cross-examination, in view of Rule 90(H).
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I understand what you're saying. I think it's
25 the way in which it was put to the witness, because it appeared as if this
1 is what the witness had said. Yes.
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, did Salko Porobic state to you that he was also
4 in the scout formations of the -- and that he entered them prior to --
5 immediately prior to the war?
6 A. No, I did not know.
7 Q. Do you know that he hid those rifles with his sister-in-law
9 A. I know that this woman had very great problems in the SUP, when
10 Mr. Simo Zaric was there, and that she was called in for questions.
11 Q. Do you know whether these rifles were found in her place? Answer,
12 please, with a yes or no.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know that Salko Porobic hid -- that he hid himself and that
15 he was being looked for in connection with these rifles; at the end he was
17 A. In my statement, I said that Salko Porobic was attending lunch
18 every day at my place, with the other tenants, and I'm surprised that
19 he -- you're saying that he was in hiding.
20 Q. Madam, I'm asking you whether you know certain facts, with a
21 "yes," or "no," or "I don't know."
22 A. Salko Porobic did not go into hiding.
23 Q. He was in his apartment?
24 A. Mostly in my apartment.
25 Q. He didn't sleep in his apartment?
1 A. Excuse me, but I certainly do not control where men sleep.
2 Q. How did you know that he didn't go into hiding?
3 A. I believe that such an older man, maybe he can be afraid. He was
4 alone and bombs were falling, hitting higher floors, and it's logical that
5 he went to the lower floors, as I did with my family, with my boyfriend.
6 Q. Madam, you said that you received certain information from your
7 neighbour Djordje Tubakovic. Do you remember stating that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That was on page 8900 and 8901. There you were describing that
10 you received information how to behave when people come and search your
11 apartment, that you have to leave the door open, that you should stand by
12 the door with your feet spread, legs apart, spread.
13 A. Of course I remember that.
14 Q. Can you tell me: When did he state this to you?
15 A. That morning when the war broke out.
16 Q. In the morning or that evening?
17 A. That morning when the war broke out.
18 Q. Prior to the arrival of these uniformed persons in your entrance
19 or at the time?
20 A. Prior to the arrival of these uniformed and armed persons coming
21 to our entrance.
22 Q. And you took this warning seriously?
23 A. After being warned that people had been killed, after such
24 information arrived by telephone, of course I took it seriously. I feared
25 it. And I also tried to create a normal situation.
1 Q. On the 4th of June you were answering the questions of the
2 Prosecutor - that is on page 8901 - that you heard a noise in the hall and
3 that on the basis of that, you concluded that the soldiers entered the
4 hallway. Do you remember stating that?
5 A. The noise could be heard not only that it was reverberating in the
6 entire building, but it was reverberating also in one head.
7 Q. But when the soldiers entered, the moment they entered the
8 building, you did not see it?
9 A. I stated where I was at the time. I couldn't see downward. But
10 what I did see, I stated it.
11 Q. They were -- the door was unlocked by Djordje Tubakovic. He led
12 them in, didn't he?
13 A. My answer is that we couldn't even close that door, not to speak
14 of locking that door.
15 Q. Madam, we received information that a month earlier that door had
16 been repaired and that it was -- it could close and that it could be
18 A. Very possible. Possibly it's so, but who unlocked and opened the
19 door, to whom, I neither saw nor stated.
20 Q. Mr. Tubakovic's apartment is below your apartment?
21 A. Yes. A floor lower.
22 Q. The apartment of Salko Porobic was above your apartment?
23 A. Precisely so.
24 Q. Incidentally, let me ask you: You mentioned the age of Salko
25 Porobic. Is he about the same age as Mr. Tadic?
1 A. I have to tell you that Salko Porobic had two heart attacks, and I
2 was present at that unfortunate event. I never ask men about their age.
3 It's a bit embarrassing for me.
4 Q. Let me ask you: At the place where you were standing, were you
5 able to see them as they left the building? You said that they went
6 outside. Were you able to see the level, the floor on which the apartment
7 of Mr. Tubakovic is?
8 A. I stood between my apartment and Mr. Tubakovic's apartment, so I
9 was able to see it very well.
10 Q. Djordje Tubakovic is a Serb, isn't he?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell me, please, was it customary in that period of time,
13 in Samac, in the beginning of 1992, for people to take off their shoes
14 when they enter somebody's apartment and leave the shoes by the entrance
16 A. Yes, I know about that. It is quite typical, especially in
18 Q. Do you remember whether there were many pairs of shoes in front of
19 the apartment of Djordje Tubakovic, in front of the door to his apartment?
20 A. That morning I was in the apartment of Mr. Tubakovic as well and I
21 didn't count how many shoes there were.
22 Q. Well, let me be more specific, then. Weren't all of your
23 neighbours in his apartment at that time?
24 A. I think that there were many of us, but I cannot be certain
25 whether there were all of us there.
1 Q. Including the family of Porobic, Salko; is that right?
2 A. I'm not sure about Salko. I know that the entire family went
3 upstairs, downstairs. They were very prone to panic, especially his
4 wife. She would start crying as soon as any dog would bark.
5 Q. When you say that there were many neighbours at Djordje
6 Tubakovic's apartment, you are referring to the night of 16th and 17th of
7 April; is that right?
8 A. I am referring to the time before the very attack on our entrance.
9 By that, I mean that morning.
10 Q. And you were at Djordje Tubakovic's as well that morning; is that
12 A. Yes. I had coffee at Djordje Tubakovic's that morning.
13 Q. Madam, when you said that Miroslav Tadic showed up, you said that
14 he was uniformed; isn't that right?
15 A. Mr. Miroslav Tadic was the only one whose face was not painted
16 over. He was fully armed, he had weapons, pistol, automatic weapons, full
17 military uniform, and all of the rest of the men had their faces painted,
18 so that even God would be unable to recognise them. They looked terrible.
19 Q. So Mr. Tadic had an automatic rifle and a pistol?
20 A. Yes, both of those things.
21 Q. And how did he carry these weapons? Was it in his hands or over
22 his shoulder?
23 A. The pistol was in his belt and the rifle was on his shoulder, but
24 he kept it in his hands.
25 Q. You said that the soldiers searched all of the apartments in the
1 building looking for weapons. Do you remember stating that?
2 A. Yes. Everything was searched, but some apartments were searched
3 superficially. That's what I said.
4 Q. And you also stated that Mr. Tadic looked for weapons in the
5 apartment of Salko Porobic.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So the apartment of Salko Porobic was searched as well?
8 A. Yes, very thoroughly searched.
9 Q. Did you hear or see Mr. Tadic talk to Salko Porobic?
10 A. Most of the conversations were conducted in the apartment. Some
11 conversations were conducted on the stairwell and some in my apartment.
12 So that means that I was in a situation to follow or to witness most of
13 these conversations.
14 Q. I'm interested in the conversation between Salko Porobic and
15 Miroslav Tadic. Did you happen to hear that conversation?
16 A. I really couldn't tell you whether the two of them talked
17 privately. I'm not even interested in that.
18 Q. And did they talk to each other in your presence?
19 A. Their conversation was overheard by the entire building. It was
20 not a normal conversation; it was a very passionate argument.
21 Q. And you heard that? Yes or no, please.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was that conversation taking place in front of the apartment of
24 Djordje Tubakovic?
25 A. Just a minute ago I told you that this conversation took place in
1 many spots. I don't know which parts of this conversation you have in
3 Q. Well, we are now talking about the time when Mr. Tadic came to the
4 apartment of Djordje Tubakovic and talked to Mr. Porobic right there.
5 A. When I gave my statement, I took great care to clearly state where
6 I was at the time, where my then boyfriend, current husband was. These
7 were two priorities that I had in mind at the time when I gave my
9 Q. Madam, during your testimony, when asked by the Prosecution --
10 this is something that you touched upon, and all that I'm interested in is
11 this conversation between Mr. Porobic and Mr. Tadic. Did you hear them
12 talk in front of the door of Djordje Tubakovic's apartment? Yes or no.
13 A. I'm not sure.
14 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, the position of my client is significantly
15 different from the one that you are claiming it to be, and it has been
16 brought up many times during these proceedings. Now, first let's check
17 the date. My client states that this event took place on the 18th of
18 April, 1992 and not on the 17th of April. You confirmed this fact because
19 you said that on that day, when the soldiers showed up, all of non-Serb
20 women left the building, and this is something that has been confirmed by
21 other witnesses as well. So are you still standing by that date? Are you
22 still claiming that it was on the 17th of April rather than on the 18th of
23 April? And just to remind you, it was very cold on that day. It started
24 even snowing.
25 A. Sir, I'm not sure which part of my statement you are challenging.
1 The first person to enter my entrance with a rifle, in the morning, before
2 noon, on the 17th, so the 17th of April, in the morning, before noon, was
3 Miroslav Tadic. He was the first person.
4 Q. So the 17th of April?
5 A. Yes, the 17th of April. He was the first one who searched my
6 apartment. I don't want you to even bring this into question.
7 Q. Madam, Mr. Miroslav Tadic claims - and this has been confirmed by
8 other witnesses - that he was unarmed on that day. So do you still wish
9 to stand by your previous statement, or rather, let me reformulate this?
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
11 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I have, of course, no objection to the
12 Defence counsel putting his client's position about what his client was
13 doing on the 17th of April, but I do object to his statement that "it has
14 been confirmed by other witnesses that he was unarmed on that day," and
15 putting other witnesses as a confirmation of his client's position. He
16 can put his client's position to her and say there's other evidence he was
17 unarmed but to say this is a fact that has been confirmed by other
18 witnesses is not the case, and I don't think he should mix up putting his
19 client's position to the witness and suggesting to the witness that there
20 are confirmed facts before this Bench.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I heard the objection. I was a bit
23 awkward when formulating my question. This is what I was trying to
24 claim: The position of my client, which can be corroborated by witnesses,
25 is such-and-such. This is what I was trying to say.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean -- when you say which can be corroborated
2 by witnesses, you mean the witnesses he intends to call?
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Then you can just put it that your instructions from
5 your client are such-and-such, okay?
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. So madam, the position of my client - and this can be corroborated
8 by eyewitnesses - that he was unarmed on that day. So do you still stand
9 by your previous claim that he was armed on that day? Just briefly, yes
10 or no.
11 A. Sir, I swear on God's name, and on everything in the world, that
12 on the 17th of April, the first man to enter our building, fully armed,
13 was Miroslav Tadic. He headed the entire unit. I am not interested in
14 your witnesses, sir. I came here to tell the truth. He came fully armed,
15 Miroslav Tadic.
16 Q. Madam, let me put another question to you. My client claims that
17 he did not issue orders to anyone that day. So do you still stand by your
18 previous statement that he had issued orders? Yes or no.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. My client claims that on that day he talked to Salko Porobic and
21 Djordje Tubakovic, that Djordje Tubakovic told him that Salko Porobic did
22 not have weapons, he didn't enter the apartment of Salko Porobic, nor was
23 the apartment of Salko Porobic searched on that occasion, or anybody
24 else's apartment, for that matter. So do you still stand by your previous
25 claim that your apartment and other apartments in the building were
1 searched on that day?
2 A. Sir, apartments were thoroughly searched, my apartment first and
3 then the apartment of Salko Porobic. I will never forget this, and I
4 swear this on God's name.
5 Q. And you are claiming that the apartment of Salko Porobic was
6 thoroughly searched?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you swear by God that this is God's truth?
9 A. Yes. Both apartments were thoroughly searched.
10 Q. Now, to go further on, Mrs. Kapetanovic: My client claims that
11 the military vehicle that you described came only after his leaving the
12 apartment. So do you stand by your previous claim that the vehicle came
13 when he entered the apartment?
14 A. He came together with that vehicle.
15 Q. But you didn't see him arrive?
16 A. Who, sir?
17 Q. Mr. Miroslav Tadic. You didn't see Mr. Miroslav Tadic as the
18 vehicle drew near. This is what you stated in your statement to the OTP.
19 A. We could see a helmet from above. I couldn't tell whose head was
20 under the helmet.
21 Q. So you didn't see Mr. Miroslav Tadic?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did he have a helmet when he entered the building, since you
24 mentioned this helmet?
25 A. What was his head gear like, I couldn't tell you, but it wasn't a
1 military cap. I know that for a fact. I know that it was tied under his
2 chin. I don't know what it is called in the military. I'm not interested
3 in that.
4 Q. Did he have a beard?
5 A. I have seen Mr. Miroslav Tadic throughout my life with moustache.
6 I always thought him to be a nice man. I don't think I'll ever change
7 this image that I have of him. I know that he wore a beard for a time,
8 but what he looked like at that very day, I'm not sure.
9 Q. Madam Kapetanovic, you said that after that event your building
10 and your apartments were searched on many occasions.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Madam, is it possible that after this event, after this day your
13 apartment was searched many times and you were harassed on many occasions,
14 is it possible that you confused all of these events?
15 A. Sir, I am not senile. I can confirm everything that is stated in
16 my statement. People who came later on, after this, had nothing to do
17 with Mr. Miroslav Tadic. I had a pistol shoved in my face daily, and I
18 still cannot sleep at night because I think of that. Who was behind this
19 and everything else that happened later, I don't know.
20 Q. So it is not plausible that you confused these events?
21 A. No. These events are crystal clear.
22 Q. Do you remember that it was fairly cold at that time, on the 16th
23 and 17th?
24 A. It was so cold in my heart that I have no idea what the weather
25 was like outside.
1 Q. You said that you went fishing on the 16th of April. Was it cold?
2 A. Well, the water is always cold.
3 Q. And the days that preceded the 16th, was it cold on those days?
4 A. I cannot remember what the weather forecast was.
5 Q. What I'm interested in is was the weather typical in March and
6 April for Samac?
7 A. The events that followed were so unusual that I simply cannot
8 remember anything usual about it.
9 Q. And you continued to claim that these people, whom you later
10 described as members of the 4th Detachment, are the people that you
11 continued seeing in March and April sitting on the terrace of Cafe AS.
12 A. Sir, these people did sit on the terrace of Cafe AS.
13 Q. What were they dressed like?
14 A. I tried not looking at them, let alone observing their clothes. I
15 am not interested in these people.
16 Q. Were you able to look at their faces? You established that they
17 were non-locals.
18 A. I concluded that they were non-locals based on their dialect.
19 They spoke Ekavian. And later on, that became a fashion in our town, so
20 that now I'm not sure who is local and who came from outside. Even I
21 myself am not sure who I belong to any more.
22 Q. So you concluded they were non-local based on their dialect?
23 A. Their accent.
24 Q. And you didn't look at their faces?
25 A. I didn't look at their faces.
1 Q. And how come you explained to the Prosecutor later on that you
2 later came to recognise them as members of this unit? Was it only by
3 their dialect?
4 A. Can you clarify the question?
5 Q. You told the Prosecutor that later on, after having contacts with
6 these people, during the activities, exercises of the 4th Detachment, you
7 established that these people belonged to the 4th Detachment. Now you're
8 telling us that you discerned these people based on their accent. So does
9 that mean that later on you recognised them again based on their dialect?
10 A. Sir, are you now referring to local people from Samac or to people
11 that came from outside?
12 Q. People that came from outside.
13 A. Well, the people that came from outside, not locals, can be very
14 easily recognised based on their accent, and you know this very well.
15 Q. But madam, you cannot claim that people whom you saw sitting in
16 the Cafe AS were the same people that you later on saw in the uniforms as
17 members of the 4th Detachment?
18 A. People who came to my apartment later on were a mix of locals and
19 non-locals, or rather, people with the accent. I firmly claim that I saw
21 Q. I will ask you several questions about your contact with
22 Mr. Miroslav Tadic that you described yesterday. You said that the
23 meeting took place after your then boyfriend swam across the Sava River.
24 Do you remember stating that?
25 A. I think that in my statement I said that I applied to Mr. Miroslav
1 Tadic on several occasions. Only once I had an opportunity of being at
2 his place.
3 Q. Well, this is what I'm referring to now, when you went to visit
4 Mr. Tadic. Did this take place upon your boyfriend's swimming across the
5 river and leaving Samac?
6 A. My contact, my only meeting with that man, I think took place
7 before my then boyfriend crossed -- swam across the river.
8 Q. Madam, I will put a question to you now which is on page 14. When
9 examined by the Prosecutor yesterday, you stated that:
10 [In English] "Mr. Tadic knows that I'm from Croatia. He knows
11 that my entire family belonged to the HVO. He also knew that my boyfriend
12 had escaped and joined the same forces."
13 [Interpretation] Then the Prosecutor went on to ask:
14 [In English] "This meeting took place after the end of August,
15 when your boyfriend had escaped; is that correct?" Answer: Yes.
16 [Interpretation] So you stated to the Prosecutor, fairly clearly
17 and precisely, that your meeting with Miroslav Tadic, in his office, took
18 place after your boyfriend had swum across and left Samac; is that right?
19 A. Let me remind you --
20 Q. All I'm interested in is whether you stated this here before this
21 Trial Chamber. Yes or no.
22 A. Well, if that's what it says, it is possible that it's a mistake.
23 Q. Madam, so did this meeting take place before you were taken to
25 A. The meeting took place before I was taken to Zasavica.
1 Q. Did this meeting take place -- and let me say that the Prosecutor
2 put a second question to you. So you told him that this event took place
3 in the time period between when your boyfriend swam across and you were
4 taken to Zasavica. Is that when this meeting took place?
5 A. Let me repeat: It is possible that there was a mistake, since
6 there were many attempts made to talk to Mr. Miroslav Tadic.
7 Q. Madam, this meeting of yours with Mr. Tadic took place in the
8 building that you called the building of local commune. We identified
9 that building before this Trial Chamber as the pensioners' hall. Do you
10 agree with this description? Is it the same building that we're talking
12 A. Well, it depends on which street you're coming from. If you're
13 coming from the stadium, then it is the hall of pensioners. However, the
14 internal part, inside, are the offices of the local commune. So it is the
15 same building, whatever you call it.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Previous translation continues].../3. Photo. Can
17 the witness be shown the Exhibit D36/3. Can you put this photograph on
18 the ELMO?
19 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, is it this building that we are referring
21 A. Sir, I don't know where was this picture taken, but I'm sure that
22 I didn't enter the building from this side. However, I do think it is
23 this building. This photograph is a fairly poor one.
24 Q. Well, I think we have some better pictures. Let's see what is the
25 exhibit number.
1 MR. KRGOVIC: 37/3.
2 Q. [Interpretation] So see, madam, it says here "local commune." Is
3 that what we're talking about, this building?
4 A. Yes, it is possible that it is that building. However, you could
5 place this heading on any building.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... /3. 38. D.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Do you recognise the interior of the building
9 A. Sir, this looks like a typical entrance into any building. I
10 think you would agree with me.
11 Q. Well, does this interior look familiar to you? That's all I want
12 to ask you. Upon having seen three photographs, can we agree that it's
13 the same building?
14 A. Sir, there was only one building in Bosanski Samac called the
15 pensioners' hall. The pensioners had one part of the building. They had
16 a restaurant there, they played chess there. And the entrance into the
17 local commune building was from a different street, and then passing
18 through the building and going into the courtyard of the same building.
19 Q. So it is the same building?
20 A. Yes, it should be the same building.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it's time for our break now,
22 and perhaps we can continue after the break.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll take our break and continue at 1100 hours.
24 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, may I just ask an indication from
25 Defence counsel how long they will be and if Mr. Pantelic intends to
1 cross-examine just so I can advise when the next witness is available.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: I think I will finish in an hour and a half, to the
4 next break.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?
6 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I think -- well, I don't know. The
7 questions of my -- and the area which will be covered by my learned
8 friend, let's say half an hour, something like that.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
10 The Court will rise.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic. You are continuing with
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, we had a break. During our discussion
17 concerning this building. Now I will ask you: You stated in your -- were
18 asked by the Prosecutor that you had to wait prior to entering the Tadic
19 office. Do you remember that?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Also, later in your statement, you said that the office of
22 Svetozar Vasovic was next to the office of Mr. Tadic. Do you remember
23 that statement?
24 A. I remember that I said that it preceded Tadic's office. Maybe I
25 said -- it's been said "next," but it was prior to.
1 Q. On the same floor?
2 A. Yes. I saw him on the same floor.
3 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, it's probably known to you that Miroslav Tadic
4 worked at the time in the civil protection, and are you aware of that
6 A. In view of the fact that the first combat operations ended, he
7 was -- he acquired a new function; namely, he was the most important man
8 concerning exchanges. Concerning my own interest, he was also responsible
9 for supply. [As interpreted]
10 Q. My question concerned his function in the civil protection.
11 A. If that's what it's called, then that's that.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
13 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, intervention to the transcript. The
14 witness said, on page 38, line 12, for supply of inhabitants or citizens
15 of Samac. So after the full stop should be -- these words should be
16 added, because that was what the witness said.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Krgovic, you can ask the witness about
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Madam Kapetanovic, you've heard the intervention in the transcript
21 that he was responsible for the supply of the inhabitants, in addition to
22 the other functions.
23 A. I said what was the truth. I must say, however, that these
24 inhabitants that he was responsible for were of Serb ethnicity, Serb
25 families, and families of those who were at the front lines.
1 Q. Also burials?
2 A. A hundred per cent precisely so.
3 Q. Burials of all inhabitants?
4 A. Burials of the Serb fighters, soldiers.
5 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, do you know that Miroslav Tadic and the civil
6 protection organised all burials in Bosanski Samac?
7 A. I was fortunate that nobody died of my family at the time, but I
8 do know that no Muslim burial could be performed in a similar way as the
9 Serb burials were carried out, and that he didn't allow those ceremonies
10 which pertained to Muslims or Croats.
11 Q. My question is: Do you know that he was responsible for that?
12 A. I know that each dead person received a coffin, was allotted a
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Kapetanovic, just answer the questions which are
15 put to you by counsel. That way we shall move much, much faster.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Could you repeat the question
17 for me?
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Did you attend Serb burials?
20 A. Prior to the war, yes; during the war, no.
21 Q. And did you attend Muslim burials?
22 A. No.
23 Q. How did you know that there were differences between the burials
24 of Serbs and Muslims?
25 A. I know that quite well.
1 Q. Thank you. And now let me ask another question. Are you aware
2 that Svetozar Vasovic worked in the local Red Cross in Bosanski Samac?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that in his office of the Red Cross, people applied -- those
5 people applied who wished to go into the exchange?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know Jovanovic, Anka?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. She also worked in the Red Cross, and before the war in the social
10 work centre?
11 A. I know that.
12 Q. She is a Croat?
13 A. Yes, married to a Serb.
14 Q. Madam, I would return to your dialogue with Tadic. In your
15 statement yesterday, in front of this Chamber, you've stated that you
16 offered the apartment and the house for your exchange and that he refused
18 A. Precisely so.
19 Q. You also testified concerning this dialogue you had with
20 Mr. Tadic, and at the time Mr. Tadic did not say that he knew that your
21 brothers were fighting on the Croatian side.
22 A. He did not say that, but it implied that.
23 Q. Please answer directly. Did he at the time say that he knows that
24 your brothers are fighting in the Croatian army?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did Miroslav Tadic at the time state that your then boyfriend and
2 today husband that he swam over -- crossed over the Sava River, swam over
3 it and joined your brothers? Yes or no.
4 A. At this point in time, I cannot answer that question. I'm not
6 Q. Madam, I wanted to ask something else. In your statement
7 yesterday --
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honours. Let me
9 check the transcript, yesterday's transcript.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Madam, in your testimony, page 13 yesterday, line 25, that your
13 family was in the HVO. But as I understood you, your family lived in
14 Slavonski Brod?
15 A. My family is from Slavonski Samac, and my -- they were members of
16 the HV.
17 Q. HVO is -- they were -- they were members of the Croatian army.
18 That is what I wanted to clarify for the transcript.
19 Q. And did your boyfriend join them or did he join the HVO?
20 A. My boyfriend, after crossing towards freedom, went to Bosnia and
21 joined the HVO, another army.
22 Q. Thank you, ma'am. This is what I wanted to clarify.
23 You also mentioned that he never liked weapons and that Tadic
24 invited him to join the armed forces, that he said he wasn't interested,
25 he doesn't like weapons. Was he mobilised or did he go on a voluntary
2 A. He left and fled the mobilisation in Bosanski Samac, and he
3 fled -- and this was the only way that he could get me out of the camp.
4 Q. In your testimony, the Prosecutor, you stated that Tadic said that
5 everybody will be able to leave Samac except for you, that you -- it will
6 be very difficult for you.
7 A. Precisely so.
8 Q. You stated that in front of this Court.
9 A. Precisely so.
10 Q. But you were exchanged on the 5th of November, 1992?
11 A. Yes, after so many attempts. Yes.
12 Q. Yesterday you stated that after your exchange, you saw some
13 people, men and women, from Zasavica, who were exchanged after you.
14 A. I had the opportunity of meeting people who I got acquainted with
15 during the war.
16 Q. Do you know that from your exchange until the end of 1993, over
17 ten exchanges were organised in Samac? Do you know that? Yes or no.
18 A. I know that many exchanges took place, but I don't know the exact
20 Q. And that you were included in one of the first exchanges?
21 A. That's not true.
22 Q. Madam, how many exchanges took place before yours?
23 A. I don't know the exact number, but I know that they did take
25 Q. How many exchanges took place from the time that you signed up,
1 applied for the exchange?
2 A. From my first application, I believe two or three exchanges took
4 Q. If we conclude that in 1993 we had ten exchanges, and prior to
5 that, two or three, as you said, you were among the first.
6 A. Sir, I have to tell you: I was very, very sick.
7 Q. Madam, I'm presenting these facts. I just want to confirm whether
8 you, in view of the number of exchanges and the time, whether you were in
9 one of the first exchanges. Yes or no.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Your injury you've mentioned happened only in the month of
12 September, when you were in Odzak picking plums; wasn't that so?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Madam, I also wanted to ask you: You also testified to the
15 Prosecutor -- you gave a statement to the Prosecutor in May 1998. Do you
16 remember that?
17 A. Yes. I don't know the exact date.
18 Q. You remember that you also had an interview with the Prosecution
19 in May of this year?
20 A. It was the first time that I tried to remember something which I
21 was persistently trying to forget.
22 Q. I just asked whether you were interviewed by the Prosecutor.
23 A. Yes, I was.
24 Q. Do you remember that you stated to the Prosecutor -- we received
25 the Prosecutor's note -- you stated that in Zasavica you've heard for the
1 first time that your brother was looking for you and that you were very
2 pleased to hear that. Do you remember stating that?
3 A. It was the first time that I heard that someone from my family was
5 Q. And then you also heard that your brother was looking for you; is
6 that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember when that happened vis-a-vis your arrival to
10 A. I was told by people when I arrived there.
11 Q. Do you remember who told you that?
12 A. The inhabitants who had a radio receiver.
13 Q. And of course you wanted to join your family in Croatia?
14 A. Logically, that's what I wanted.
15 Q. Do you remember the family Cerninski?
16 A. The surname is familiar to me, but I don't recall to whom it
18 Q. Do you remember whether any of these -- from these people from
19 this family went with you in the exchange on the 5th of November?
20 A. Could you explain the family?
21 Q. Cerninski Ferdinand, Cerninski Angela, Cerninski Stipo, Cerninski
23 A. I wasn't born in Samac. I don't know well the families. Now this
24 is a more detailed explanation.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to submit
1 a document as evidence. It is a document which was disclosed to the
2 Prosecution, ERN number Y4786. It is a guarantee for people who wish to
3 go for the exchange and who are travelling to Croatia. In concrete terms,
4 this document is a guarantee for the Cerninski family. We have an
5 official translation of this document, but the seal hasn't been completely
6 translated, but the document itself has been translated.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: It's dated when?
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The date is the 26th of August,
10 JUDGE MUMBA: And it was prepared by whom?
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] This document was signed by Lidija
12 Pintar, who is a Croat and who issued a guarantee for this family so that
13 they could come to Croatia. This is an important document for our line of
14 questioning of the witness. We will touch upon also her family and
15 explain how the exchanges functioned and how people could cross over to
17 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
18 Yes, Ms. Reidy.
19 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, with respect, I hope this is just a
20 language thing again, but I think that the counsel can of course ask the
21 witness -- elicit anything from the witness that might throw light on this
22 document and ask her questions about her exchange, but it's not counsel's
23 role in cross-examination to explain how the exchanges function and how
24 people cross to Croatia. That's -- counsel's not here giving evidence.
25 So I hope he's not going to pursue --
1 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no.
2 MS. REIDY: -- a line like that if the witness cannot provide any
3 information in this document. He's not going to continue to pursue a line
4 that --
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
6 MS. REIDY: -- the witness cannot help him on.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I had that in mind. That's why I asked how
8 the witness was going to deal with this document. So when he explained I
9 thought let's hear how the questions will be and how much the witness
10 knows, if anything, about this document.
11 MS. REIDY: I'm sorry again, Your Honour. Counsel have not
12 provided us with an English translation. We just have the original they
13 disclosed to us previously.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure Mr. Krgovic has got spare copies for the
15 English translation.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The document consists of two pages.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] This document consists of two
19 pages. On the first page we have the statement and the text of the
20 statement; on the second page we have the appostille seal, which was not
21 been translated. And in connection with this document, I'd only be
22 interested for the witness to read out the text on the seal.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What seal?
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I stated that the second page of the
25 B/C/S version of the appostille seal has not been translated.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So that's the seal you wanted the witness to
2 look at.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, please look at that seal. Can you read
5 the text on the round seal?
6 A. You're thinking of the small seal? It's very small. "Republic of
7 Croatia" on top, "municipality". I cannot see.
8 Q. That will be enough, madam.
9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Krgovic. Apart from the seal on
10 page 2, none of the rest has been translated either, because the only
11 translation we have is -- well, the first page, with the list of the
12 Cerninski family members and so on and so forth. Page 2, we don't have
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The second page was given also for
15 translation. The first page of translation arrived. The second did not.
16 If you want to, I can read it out, the second page, together with the
17 witness. The second page is just a confirmation of the authorised body
18 concerning this statement signed by the given person, and that taxes have
19 been paid.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But Mr. Krgovic, you can't give us the
21 translation yourself, because you are counsel. What you should have done
22 is to ask the Translation Unit why they didn't translate the second page.
23 So it's not a complete document, as far as the official language is
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The substance of this document, the
1 first page - and I'll just ask for an ID number of this document at this
2 time - and we will ask the witness to read out the second page, if you
3 deem it necessary.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: No, it's not up to the Trial Chamber to deem it
5 necessary. It's your case. It's you who -- yes.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] For me, it was enough that the
7 witness read out that what she did read out on the seal, appostille seal.
8 That is enough for my questioning.
9 Q. Madam, are you aware of the fact that the Exchange Commission of
10 the HVO, which was on the other side, didn't wish to accept persons who
11 wished to go to Croatia without a previous statement or written invitation
12 of somebody from Croatia itself?
13 A. Are you thinking of the HVO in Bosnia?
14 Q. You were in Dragalici, you had the HVO commission waiting for you,
15 and it was a commission from Orasje, and their president of -- their
16 Exchange Commission?
17 A. Precisely so.
18 Q. And from there, that you left for Domaljevac?
19 A. Precisely so.
20 Q. Are you aware that persons who wished to go to Croatia joined
21 their families, or to go and live there, that they had to have a guarantee
22 of their relatives, their friends from Croatia in order to be able to go
23 to Croatia after the exchange took place?
24 A. It is the first time that I hear of such a possibility, even
25 though I know that my sister from Switzerland was looking for me via the
1 International Red Cross. She wasn't the only one. Others also. And in
2 view of the fact that I was being requested from different sides, that was
3 the reason that I had difficulties in being exchanged.
4 Q. Do you know that Croatia didn't want to receive any refugees
5 without a written guarantee of a person who will cover the costs of their
6 stay and lodging in Croatia?
7 A. I have to rectify. I am a citizen of Croatia and I am from --
8 also have the citizenship of Bosnia, so I was returning from one of my
9 countries to the other country.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, the question has not been answered. The
11 witness has explained her own situation, so I was wondering whether you
12 still wanted your question answered.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Madam, I would like to know the following: Do you know that if
15 somebody wanted to go into Croatia after the exchange, that person needed
16 a guarantee, and that Croatia refused to accept a person of any ethnicity
17 without a special guarantee issued by a resident of Croatia stating that
18 this resident of Croatia would cover the costs of the other person's
19 staying in Croatia?
20 A. Sir, I had money in Croatia, and I still have it now. Nobody had
21 to cover my costs. I was simply returning home.
22 Q. I simply asked you whether you knew about this fact. Maybe it did
23 not apply to you because you were a citizen of Croatia. But do you know
24 that the people who wanted to go to Croatia after the exchange had to have
25 a guarantee?
1 A. I think that there were few cases similar to mine. Nobody
2 informed me of this.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mrs. Kapetanovic, no, no, no. Just answer the
4 question as put to you by counsel: Did you know about that, that there
5 was a requirement of a guarantee? Just answer it yes or no. Did you
6 know? That's the question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, Your Honours, I didn't
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. And as far as your boyfriend is concerned, do you know that he
11 needed a guarantee to come and rejoin you in Croatia?
12 A. As far as my boyfriend is concerned, I didn't know anything. I
13 didn't even know whether he was alive.
14 Q. Did he follow you to Croatia? Did he come with you to Croatia?
15 A. Four days after the exchange.
16 Q. And did somebody have to issue a guarantee for him to be able to
17 stay in Croatia?
18 A. My family gave a guarantee for him, and immediately thereafter we
19 got married.
20 Q. So, madam, you did know that if somebody wanted to go and stay in
21 Croatia from Bosnia and Herzegovina, that that person needed a guarantee?
22 A. I learned about it then.
23 Q. Madam, let me ask you about the Cerninski family. You knew Stipe
24 Cerninski, who was the director of the post office?
25 A. Yes. My husband worked in the post office.
1 Q. And Angela was exchanged with you?
2 A. Well, I cannot remember whether she was.
3 Q. She was the mother of Stipe Crninski?
4 A. I do not remember whether I saw the lady in question in that
6 Q. Madam, can you please take a look at the date of this guarantee.
7 It's highlighted in yellow.
8 A. Yes, I can see that.
9 Q. It says 26th of August, 1992 as the date the guarantee was issued.
10 A. Yes, I can see that.
11 Q. So that means that the guarantee was issued on that day, 26th of
12 August, 1992.
13 A. I suppose that's right.
14 Q. Madam --
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Or rather, Your Honours, I would
16 like to have this document admitted, but as an ID document for the time
17 being, until we finalise the translation of it.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will have it marked for identification
19 until the translation is completed, and also, this witness hasn't said
20 anything that would warrant the admission of this document.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a number of
22 these documents which explain this. I simply wanted to cover this
23 document with this witness, simply because members of the Cerninski family
24 were exchanged together with this witness. And we will refer back to this
25 again in the proceedings, and right now all I wanted to see is whether
1 this witness knows about the facts regarding the guarantee.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We shall have it marked for
3 identification only.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: I don't need any more.
5 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D66/3 ter ID and D66/3 ID, Your
6 Honours. Thank you.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Madam, you took these words implying that you wouldn't be
9 exchanged so easily very seriously, didn't you?
10 A. Precisely so.
11 Q. On page 19 of yesterday's transcript, when asked by the Prosecutor
12 about how you were taken to Zasavica, you said that you had expected to be
13 exchanged and that when you were taken to Zasavica, you had already had
14 two bags prepared to be taken with you to exchange.
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. And you did not unpack these bags, apparently, until the 7th of
17 September, when you were taken to Zasavica.
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 Q. So you were hoping, you had a great desire to leave Samac, didn't
21 A. Yes. Quite logically, I did.
22 Q. Madam, when you answered Prosecutor's questions yesterday, on page
23 21, you said that at the checkpoint in Zasavica you saw members of the
24 special police for the first time. Do you remember saying that?
25 A. Yes. That special police, yes.
1 Q. When you had an interview with the OTP in May, you stated that you
2 were taken to be examined by Dr. Nogic under the police escort. Do you
3 know any of those policemen that escorted you? I'm here referring to the
4 policemen who escorted you to Dr. Nogic. Were they the same policemen
5 whom you had previously identified as members of the special police?
6 A. One of them was assigned to escort, and I didn't know the others.
7 Q. Well, I didn't quite understand you. So were they the same
8 policemen as those whom you had previously seen at the Zasavica
10 A. Yes. One of them was a duty policeman at the Zasavica checkpoint.
11 Q. And you identified them as members of the special police?
12 A. Well, this is how they introduced themselves to me.
13 Q. And Simo Krunic went with you, if I understood you properly.
14 A. Yes, precisely so.
15 Q. And every time you went to get a shot, you were accompanied by
16 armed guards. That's what you stated. Is that right?
17 A. Yes, that's right, but they were not always the same guards.
18 Q. Were you able to move freely about Samac after receiving your
20 A. On few occasions, accompanied by police, yes, I was.
21 Q. Did you state to the Prosecutor that you went to Samac to buy
22 cigarettes at Ilija Popovic's?
23 A. Yes, precisely so.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
25 MS. REIDY: Can I just -- I just want to correct the record. Mrs.
1 Kapetanovic never said that she went to Bosanski Samac to buy cigarettes.
2 She said that on one occasion after she had been for her shot she took
3 advantage of the opportunity to get some cigarettes. So I don't want the
4 counsel putting on the record and implying that the purpose of her visit
5 to the Bosanski Samac town was simply to purchase cigarettes and that she
6 was permitted to do so.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: So what you are saying is that it was during the
8 same time that she went for the medication, for the injections?
9 MS. REIDY: Well, counsel said that: "Did you state to the
10 Prosecutor you went to Samac to buy cigarettes?" And that's not what she
11 said to the Prosecutor. When she went, she went to Samac and she did say
12 she went to buy cigarettes at Ilija Popovic's, but that was after she was
13 in Samac for her shots and she took advantage of the opportunity to buy
14 some cigarettes. The quotation there is incorrect from counsel and it
15 implies that she was permitted to go to Samac for the purposes of
16 cigarettes, which is not what she stated.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is how I read
19 this, but I will read out the unofficial statement of this witness, which
20 says as follows: "The owner of the bar where I normally bought cigarettes
21 was Ignjo Popovic, and since he wasn't at the bar at the time,
22 bar/restaurant, I went to look for him."
23 Can you tell me, please, when was this? Because based on this
24 material that I received from the Prosecution, it says here the owner of
25 the bar where I normally bought cigarettes. So this was something that
1 was customary; at least, this is how I read this. I didn't say that the
2 witness only went into town to buy cigarettes, but it flowed after my
3 question when I asked her about the shots and whether she was able to move
4 freely about the town upon receiving her shot. It came after that.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would like the witness to
7 clarify that.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let's clear that with the witness.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, you saw what this was all about. When you went
11 to get your shots, did you stop by the bar of Ignjo Popovic to buy
12 cigarettes there?
13 A. Mr. Krgovic, I went to buy cigarettes at the bar together with the
14 police, so accompanied by the special police, and since I did not find the
15 owner there, I was taken to the mosque to be shown what my brothers had
16 done to the mosque. When I said that I normally bought cigarettes there,
17 I have to say that I bought cigarettes at the time when it was very
18 difficult to come by cigarettes in Samac, and it didn't have to do
19 anything with the event that I described. It's a different period of
21 Q. Well, did you find this person where you wanted to buy cigarettes?
22 A. I think that I did find him that day, or perhaps some of his
23 associates or family members, and I think that I did manage to buy
24 cigarettes that day. I'm not quite sure, but I know that I did come back
25 with cigarettes.
1 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I would like to ask you now about an event that
2 you brought up, and it has to do with your neighbour, Vera Avdic. Do you
3 know that Vera Avdic hails from Gornja Dubica in Odzak municipality?
4 A. I know that very well.
5 Q. And that her parents live there?
6 A. I know that very well too.
7 Q. And they were exchanged and for a while lived in Vera's apartment?
8 A. Precisely so.
9 Q. You know that the husband of Vera Abdic was killed in Grebnice as
10 a member of the 4th Detachment?
11 A. I'm familiar with that.
12 Q. You mentioned having seen Vera Avdic unload the wood stove of a
13 tractor some time in the summer of 1992, after Odzak was taken over by the
14 Serb forces. Do you remember saying that?
15 A. Yes, very well.
16 Q. Do you know where personal belongings of her parents were?
17 A. I didn't see them personally.
18 Q. Do you know that this electric stove was brought by Vera Avdic
19 from Dubica and that it belonged to her parents?
20 A. Sir, I have to correct you. It wasn't an electric stove; it was a
21 wood stove.
22 Q. Yes, that's right. You said a wood stove. Do you know that those
23 items, including the stove, in fact belonged to her parents?
24 A. Vera Avdic personally told me where she got those items, so that
25 there couldn't be any mistake regarding that.
1 Q. Do you know that the mother of Vera Avdic is a Croat?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. And that she couldn't take her stove when she was exchanged?
4 A. Yes, I know that. I also know where Vera's brother was, sir.
5 Q. And you still stand by your previous claim that these were not
6 personal belongings or property of Vera Avdic, but rather, that she had
7 received it as a reward for her husband's being a member of the 4th
9 A. That wasn't the only stove that Vera Avdic had delivered to our
11 Q. Did she really personally tell you that she had received that
12 stove from the 4th Detachment? Did she clearly, specifically state that?
13 A. Not specifically that she had received it from the 4th Detachment,
14 but that she -- that was a reward for her husband's participation in the
15 4th Detachment.
16 Q. Her husband was killed?
17 A. Yes, I know that, and I regret that.
18 Q. Madam, I would like to open up a new topic now pertaining to the
19 ICRC's visit to Zasavica. You told us yesterday that the ICRC came to
20 Zasavica and that you were present when some explanation took place
21 regarding the treatment of people who resided in Zasavica. You also
22 mentioned a lady interpreter who was at the meeting. Do you remember
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you know that lady interpreter from before?
1 A. No.
2 Q. So she was not from Samac, as far as you know?
3 A. As far as I know, no, she wasn't.
4 Q. You said yesterday that she spoke with a Serbian dialect. I
5 didn't quite gather whether she spoke Ekavian dialect, or how did you
6 conclude that she spoke a Serbian dialect?
7 A. Well, all residents of Samac have a very specific dialect, and she
8 spoke a little bit different, so it sounded like Ekavian dialect.
9 Q. Did she leave together with the representatives of the ICRC?
10 A. I was the one who left, sir. She remained there.
11 Q. But after that, when the representatives of ICRC left Zasavica,
12 you did not see her again in Zasavica?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know that the ICRC had its own interpretation service and
15 took its own interpreters to all negotiations and meetings?
16 A. No, I don't know that.
17 Q. And was this interpreter able to hear everything you said to Simo
19 A. She sat nearby. She was able to hear.
20 Q. Madam, do you know that the ICRC has a rule that when conducting
21 an interview with the persons affected, no representative of local
22 authorities can be present?
23 A. I don't know in what capacity Mr. Krunic was there then.
24 Q. We spent quite a lot of time dealing with this meeting, and as far
25 as I gathered, you did not address yourself directly to the ICRC but
1 rather to Mr. Krunic.
2 A. Yes. I was directed towards him.
3 Q. But you addressed yourself to Mr. Krunic, didn't you?
4 A. Yes, because he remained there later on as well, whereas the
5 others stayed there only for a short period of time.
6 Q. Madam, I would like to ask you several questions regarding your
7 attempt to get exchanged on the 7th of October. You brought this up
8 yesterday when examined by the Prosecution. You said that on the previous
9 day you were told that you were on the list of people to be exchanged on
10 the 7th of October, 1992. Do you remember saying that?
11 A. Yes, precisely so.
12 Q. Do you remember somebody else who was supposed to be exchanged
13 with you from Zasavica as well on that same day?
14 A. Well, I regret to say that I cannot remember that person right
15 now, but I know that I didn't go alone.
16 Q. So you cannot remember the name of any person who, together with
17 you, on that day, was transported from Zasavica to Bosanski Samac, to the
18 area in front of the secondary school, which is where the people left from
19 to be exchanged?
20 A. I did not think -- I have not thought about that in the past ten
21 years, and I can't tell you that right now. Such things were not
22 important to me.
23 Q. Madam, you mentioned yesterday that there were several groups of
24 people standing in front of the buses. There was a group of you, people
25 from Zasavica, then there was a group of beaten-up people, and then there
1 were also people from Bosanski Samac. So can you remember the name of
2 anybody else who was present there on the 7th of October, when you failed
3 to get exchanged?
4 A. Yes, I can, very well.
5 Q. Can you tell me who went then, on that day?
6 A. The wife of Dedo Halilovic, with her son. I can't remember his
7 name right now. I think it was Faruk or something like that.
8 Q. And you can't remember anybody from Zasavica?
9 A. It must have been the people whom I didn't know very well. I was
10 very ill at the time and very much scared, on account of all of that.
11 Q. Can you tell me, please: What is the name of Dedo Halilovic's
12 wife? Was it Ismeta?
13 A. Yes, Ismeta.
14 Q. And there was a child with her?
15 A. Yes, a son, some 15 years old.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
17 introduce as a document a list of people to be exchanged, dated 5th
18 November, 1992. I apologise. These are the women designated to be
19 exchanged on the 7th of October. This is the Prosecution's document. We
20 don't have the translation. Because this witness mentioned this event,
21 and this is the Prosecution's document, and only upon hearing the
22 testimony of this witness we'll learn that she attempted to get exchanged
23 on the 7th of October. So if we could please have this document
24 introduced as an ID document. It has only a heading and a list of names.
25 Immediately upon receiving this information, we sent this document to be
1 translated, and, as I told you, we learned of this upon hearing this
2 witness's testimony that she had attempted to get exchanged on the 7th of
4 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Ms. Reidy.
5 MS. REIDY: May I just correct the record on that? Because it's
6 simply not true. The fact that this witness was taken for an exchange
7 earlier in October and that she ended up in fact not being put on the
8 exchange has been part of her statement which was disclosed -- it's
9 paragraph 91 of her statement. It was disclosed to Defence before this
10 witness took the stand. They've had it for the whole time that the prior
11 witness has been on the stand. That was three weeks. So it's simply not
12 yesterday that they heard it. It is a Prosecution document to the extent
13 that in the process of disclosure under Rule 66(A), we disclosed it, but
14 this is not the first time that they know this witness went through to one
15 failed exchange and wasn't exchanged. So just for the record.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's important to clarify that so that we
18 Mr. Krgovic, it's now Mr. Lukic. Yes.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. Let us
20 just clarify this. We don't want to create an even greater confusion. We
21 hope the Trial Chamber will understand the position of the Defence of
22 Miroslav Tadic, for a technical reason. The Prosecution delivered to us
23 the lists for exchange as their evidence. These were all in B/C/S, and we
24 did receive it during the discovery stage. We also have our lists that we
25 disclosed to the Prosecution. We always try to prepare the translation in
1 advance so that we can have it for each relevant witness, but sometimes we
2 can't coordinate this perfectly, and sometimes errors do occur. So this
3 list and the other list, dated 5th November, were submitted for
4 translation. We have not received the translation yet, but we hereby
5 apply to you to allow us to introduce this document as an ID document, and
6 we hope to receive translation in a few days. And I do apologise to you,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.
9 Mr. Krgovic, you can proceed.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: Can you put on the ELMO this document, please.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have it numbered for identification purposes,
13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It's D67/3 ter ID. Thank you.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, please take a good look at this list.
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Please read the heading, the one that is highlighted in yellow,
18 and not fast, please.
19 A. "Republika Srpska, Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac,
20 commission for exchange of prisoners and arrested civilians, Bosanski
21 Samac, the 5th of October, 1992. List of women to be exchanged in
22 Dragalici on the 7th of October, 1992."
23 Q. Now, please take a look at these names. Do you know anybody else
24 in addition to the wife of Dedo Halilovic?
25 A. I'm glad here to see the name of Ismeta Halilovic, which means
1 that I recalled correctly. And it means that I was with her in front of
2 that school in Samac. It was -- this concerns this lady who was not
4 Q. Madam, this -- your name is not on this list; is that not true?
5 A. Regrettably not. And according to what it says, the list was
6 drawn up on the 5th of October, 1992?
7 A. I see this list, and I see that by hand, a name was added, a name
8 of a lady, and I'm surprised that mine wasn't added also.
9 Q. Madam, may I ask you: Was there anybody else, except you, that
10 had been excluded from this exchange?
11 A. On that day, I didn't notice anything similar concerning others as
12 to what happened to me.
13 Q. A person by the name of Cakara, his nickname, Cakara, Naser, he
14 didn't allow you to board the bus; is that so?
15 A. He was standing in front of the bus with a list of people, and he
16 allowed people to board only if their names were on his list.
17 Q. This person, Cakara, was a policeman before the war?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kapetanovic.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, could we just get the
21 witness to translate the notation next to the number 14, Anica Jelavic.
22 It might be difficult to re-examine if we don't know what the handwritten
23 notation says at all. So if we could just find out what it says.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you repeat that where?
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Number 14, handwritten notation, number 14,
1 Jelavic, Anica and there's some sort of handwritten notation with a date
2 next to it and it may have significance, it may not, I don't know. But
3 until it's translated, we can't decide.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Madam Kapetanovic, can you read it out for us? That's what's
6 written by hand.
7 A. It says: "Exchanged on the 29th of January, 1993," or something
8 to that effect.
9 Q. It means that on that day she wasn't exchanged. She was exchanged
10 on the 29th of January, 1993. How do you understand that?
11 A. I didn't personally know this woman, and I don't know when this
12 was entered by hand. I don't know what happened to this woman.
13 Q. If it stands that she was exchanged on the 29th of January, 1993,
14 it means that on this day on the paper she didn't -- she wasn't exchanged.
15 A. Of course it would mean that if this is true, this is one person
16 less and that I could have been her replacement.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but that whole evidence is really guesswork,
18 because the witness has already said she didn't know this lady, she didn't
19 know what happened to her. Yes.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: I've finished with that.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Kapetanovic, a few more questions concerning
22 your exchange. You were exchanged on the 5th of November, 1992, in a
23 place called Dragalici?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That took place at the gas station? If you recall.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that area was under the UN protection?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that place -- in that place the UN representatives asked you
5 if you wanted to cross over?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. On that occasion, when the UN representative asked that question,
8 did anybody threaten you or pressure you or coerce you either to stay or
9 to go?
10 A. At that moment, during that moment, there was no pressure.
11 Q. And if you didn't cross over, you could have returned to Samac?
12 A. Yes, into the camp of Samac.
13 Q. But you decided to accept the exchange and join your family and
14 your then boyfriend. That's what you stated.
15 A. Yes. I wanted my freedom.
16 Q. You went -- were taken to that petrol pump, which was rather far
17 out from Samac. It was a safe area. There was no military operations
19 A. When we arrived there, there was no shooting, and it was quiet.
20 Q. And all around you were the UN representatives. I suppose you saw
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Also when you entered and you left the zone?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Samac was under the Serb control and was shelled; you mentioned
2 A. Yes, I mentioned that.
3 Q. Grebnice, Domaljevac, where you went after your exchange, was also
4 shelled in the operation, in this zone?
5 A. Yes. We were honoured with such shelling and arms fire that for
6 continue days it was echoing.
7 Q. After that you went to Grebnice?
8 A. Yes, precisely so.
9 Q. Madam, the place where the UN representative asked you whether you
10 want to cross over or return to Samac, did anybody return from that line
11 back to Samac and who was on the bus with you?
12 A. I know of such a person. The person didn't do it on that day, but
13 in the course of the preceding exchange. That was Mr. Marko Filipovic.
14 Was brought to the exchange line. He stated that he doesn't want to go
15 into the exchange, and he was returned from Zasavica to Samac. And let me
16 add that the lady is a Serb, of Serb ethnicity.
17 Q. So you know only of this single case?
18 A. Yes, only of this single case.
19 Q. You described that in the exchange also your dog Pegi was
20 involved. Do you remember that?
21 A. Of course I remember. She was always with me.
22 Q. You said the dog was exchanged for a child. You explained it
23 yesterday that it was in addition to your name, there was a plus 1, as if
24 it was a child.
25 A. I was told I would be exchanged, and it was understood that my dog
1 would go too, and I remember that it was discussed that the exchange would
2 be for a child.
3 Q. You also mentioned this "plus 1" next to your name as if a child
4 was involved.
5 A. Possibly I said it. Otherwise, let me say that I treat my dog as
6 my child.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, Your Honours, I would like to
8 enter into evidence the list of exchange dated the 5th of November, 1992.
9 This document, as well as the previous ones, hasn't been translated, for
10 the reasons explained by my colleague Lukic, and I'd only ask for the ID
11 number. We won't dwell on it long.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: I want to find out, Mr. Krgovic, the reason you want
13 this list shown, is it to show whether the addition of "plus 1" regarding
14 the witness's dog is on the list? Is that the only reason you want it?
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] There are some marks on this
16 exchange list which explains also child, or the status of the person, and
17 her name is on the list.
18 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, have you seen this list?
19 A. Yes. Yes, I've seen it only now.
20 Q. Could you read the heading, please, underlined in yellow.
21 A. "Republic of Srpska, municipality of Serbian Samac, commission for
22 the exchange of prisoners and arrested civilians. Samac, the 5th of
23 November, 1992, a list of persons, civilians, who went, on the 5th of
24 November, 1992, to Croatia."
25 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, please look at page 2, number 45 and 46. Could
1 you read out these names?
2 A. Number 45, Cerninski, Ferdo, born 1913, and number 46, Crninski,
3 Angela, born in 1925.
4 Q. Are these the same people we're talking about, for whom we've seen
5 that statement of guarantee?
6 A. Precisely so.
7 Q. And these guarantees were issued on the 26th of August, 1992?
8 A. Precisely so, according to your document.
9 Q. And they were answered -- they were exchanged together with you?
10 A. That is what it says on the document: Persons, civilians, who left
11 on the 5th of November, 1992, to Croatia. I am surprised that you stated
12 there that we are all going to Croatia, because we were exchanged within
14 Q. It wasn't us, madam. Please, madam, read out the number 31.
15 A. Stanisic Jelena, born 1957.
16 Q. Is this your name?
17 A. Precisely so.
18 Q. And this plus next to the name, what does it mean? Do they
19 represent the number of children?
20 A. There are no crosses and no children. I'm reading the names of
21 persons, civilians, who left. So my dog wasn't a person, civilian.
22 Q. So he wasn't exchanged as a person, civilian. And on the third
23 page, number 88, what does -- please read the name and then what is stated
24 in the brackets.
25 A. In the bracket, it says "pregnant."
1 MR. KRGOVIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher. I've finished with this
3 I have no further questions. I've finished my cross-examination.
4 [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Kapetanovic.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have an ID number for this document, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It's D68/3 ter ID. Thank you.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
8 MR. PANTELIC: In fact, Your Honours, my co-counsel, Mr. Novic,
9 will conduct this cross-examination today. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, what we -- the information the Trial
11 Chamber has is that he's a legal assistant. He has not been appointed to
12 replace co-counsel.
13 MR. PANTELIC: He is in fact acting as a co-counsel during the
14 temporary period when my co-counsel is absent, and he's a practicing
15 lawyer and professor of criminal law, so ...
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but there is no document from the Registrar to
17 replace him as co-counsel.
18 MR. PANTELIC: In fact, that is arrangement made with the
19 Registrar for this limited period. Yes, the question is yes, there is
20 no --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. The document the Trial Chamber has seen is
22 that he's a legal assistant. He's part of your team, of the Defence team.
23 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, yes. But due to this outstanding situation
24 with my co-counsel, Mr. Vukovic, I make an arrangement with the Registrar
25 that for this limited period of couple of weeks, Mr. Novic, who is
1 practicing lawyer --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. That's not the dispute. The point is there
3 is no document replacing Mr. Vukovic.
4 MR. PANTELIC: Well, not officially. It's just an arrangement
5 with the Registrar.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That doesn't mean he has the right of audience
7 before the Trial Chamber. He doesn't have the right of audience.
8 MR. PANTELIC: Well --
9 JUDGE MUMBA: So the cross-examination should be done by yourself.
10 MR. PANTELIC: No problem at all, but I'm just asking for this
11 particular -- I was not informed prior to that. My understanding was that
12 when the arrangement was made with the Registrar, that everything is okay.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I think a step further should have been taken,
14 because he can sit in court, but as to whether or not he has audience,
15 there has to be a document formally appointing him to replace the
17 MR. PANTELIC: I will do that immediately this afternoon and we
18 shall obtain this paper for the next --
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. If you verify that with the Registrar, that
20 will be fine with the Trial Chamber.
21 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely. Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Madam Kapetanovic. I'm the Defence
24 counsel for Blagoje Simic.
25 Could you tell me, because you stated on a number of occasions,
1 including to the Prosecution and in front of this Court, in your statement
2 also of 1998, that you have four brothers.
3 A. Yes, I have four brothers and three sisters.
4 Q. Among these brothers and sisters, you said -- stated that four
5 brothers and a sister were members of the 108th Slavonia Brigade.
6 A. Precisely so.
7 Q. 108th Slavonia Brigade is a part of the armed formations of the
8 Croatian army; isn't it so?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. Do you have any information when these three brothers and the
11 sister became members of the 108th Slavonia Brigade of the Croatian army?
12 A. I don't have the precise data.
13 Q. But you do have contacts with your brothers and sisters?
14 A. Of course I do contact them, but I never asked for the exact date.
15 Q. As it's an undisputed fact that they were members of this brigade
16 in April 1992, can we determine this as an undisputed fact?
17 A. At the time, I believe that they were members of the 108th
19 Q. And what posts did they occupy, your four brothers, if you can
20 enumerate it for us?
21 A. My oldest brother was in a unit with the medical doctors. He was
22 a driver of an ambulance. My sister, as she had a radio transmitter, she
23 worked in their staff headquarters and working in the area of logistics.
24 Another brother only arrived from the army, and he joined the infantry. I
25 don't know what kind. And two of them were attached to the command and
1 connected with the civilian activities, precisely, their refugee --
2 Q. So they were all in the 108th Slavonia Brigade?
3 A. This 108th Slavonia Brigade was attached to my town, Slavonski
4 Samac. They belonged to it.
5 Q. Slavonski Samac is 50 metres from Bosanski Samac. It's divided by
6 a river and it's in Croatia?
7 A. Precisely so.
8 Q. You mentioned that one of your brothers just came from the army
9 and he joined this other army. Maybe I didn't understand you properly.
10 A. He had the misfortune of serving in the air force in Serbia. I
11 don't recall the town where they worked in the subterranean part of the
12 airport. And instead of abandoning the army after his period of service,
13 he was retained as a Croat another two months. And I'm surprised they let
14 him go alive from Serbia.
15 Q. Did I understand you properly that he left the JNA in March 1992,
16 and after that he joined the 108th Slavonia Brigade? Now, is that -- do I
17 understand you correctly?
18 A. It wasn't in March 1992. You have to know that the war in Croatia
19 was in 1991, and here we're dealing of persons with a Croatian
21 Q. Well, correct me: When did he leave the JNA and join the Croatian
23 A. I don't know the exact date, but he left the JNA prior to the
24 breakout of war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I don't know exactly how much
1 Q. Probably in the beginning of 1992?
2 A. Possibly somewhere there, but I don't know the exact date.
3 Q. Your sister, that's an undisputed fact that she is a radio
4 communications specialist?
5 A. She was dealing in this only as an amateur.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, why do we want all these details?
7 Isn't it sufficient that her brothers and sisters were in this Brigade?
8 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Yes. Now --
9 JUDGE MUMBA: So why do we want the details in relation to the
11 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, it's important, Your Honour. Now we are going
12 to the closing link.
13 Q. [Interpretation] She worked with the professional equipment, radio
14 equipment. You stated that to the Prosecution and here.
15 A. She worked with radio equipment for amateurs. What is really
16 professional equipment, I don't know.
17 Q. This activity was in the area of social protection and All Peoples
19 A. This radio station was transferred from that organisation.
20 Q. Before the station was transferred in 1990 in Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina, her activity was within the framework of all general defence
22 and social protection?
23 A. Yes. The station was moved before the outbreak of war.
24 Q. Madam Kapetanovic, please listen to me. Before 1990, do you have
25 personal knowledge that radio amateurs were within the framework of All
1 Peoples Defence and general protection of Bosnia and Herzegovina? And I'm
2 speaking of prior to 1990.
3 A. I don't know for Bosnia, but my sister lived in Croatia, and I
4 don't know what the enforced laws were there.
5 Q. You will confirm the fact for me that your sister and your
6 brothers had maintained contact with you while you were in Bosanski Samac,
7 they in Slavonski Samac, from January 1992 up to your exchange?
8 A. I must correct the date. From January 1992 until the beginning of
9 the war, the 17th, the 16th of April, 1992. In that period, I had
10 contacts with my family. After that, there was this lack of communication
11 from that day to the 5th of November, 1992.
12 Q. In the police of Bosanski Samac, there is information that your
13 brothers, your sister, and you were, in fact, Croatian agent, intelligence
14 agents, working for the Croatian army. Can you confirm that you were an
15 intelligence agent in Bosanski Samac? Just yes or no, please.
16 A. This is the first time I'm hearing something of this sort. I have
17 never been a Croatian agent.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll take our break and continue our
19 proceedings at 12.50 hours.
20 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. You're continuing with
24 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I understand the video director is not yet in,
1 so we'll have no transmission. We'll just have to wait for a few minutes.
2 MR. PANTELIC: In that case, Your Honour, I can maybe ask to go
3 into closed session, because we don't need transmission.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: No, but is the evidence supposed to be in closed
5 session? I'm sure it's just a few minutes.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I can use this break
7 to take the opportunity and inform the Trial Chamber that in the meantime,
8 I received the official translation of the document D67/3 ter, and also
9 D68/3 ter, which is the list for exchange dated 5th November. I received
10 this during the break, and I thought that perhaps after Mr. Pantelic
11 finishes his cross-examination, we could introduce these documents in
12 case, during the re-direct, there should be any questions regarding this.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: I want to find out from the Prosecution whether
14 there's any objection. This is D68 and D67.
15 MS. REIDY: No objection.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we have confirmation that they will
17 retain the same numbers as exhibits?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. They will be tendered into
19 evidence as exhibits. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: And can we get the English copies? Oh, the usher is
21 not yet here.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The director is in. You can proceed,
24 Mr. Pantelic.
25 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Yes. I -- okay. Yes.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Kapetanovic, in May 2002, you gave a
2 statement to the Prosecution. I will give you a copy of that statement so
3 that you can follow it.
4 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ... give this
5 statement to the witness, please.
6 Q. [Interpretation] It is in your language. Please turn to page 7.
7 I will read it out, and then if you can confirm whether I'm reading it out
8 correctly. Page 7, paragraph 17. Have you found it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Towards the end, your sentence goes as follows: "Before the
11 before, my sister had professional radio equipment - she was involved as
12 an amateur in ham radio links and she had a huge antenna. One could see
13 that antenna from the distance of 5 kilometres from Bosanski Samac. The
14 war was going on in Croatia, so she took the radio for the use of her
15 unit, so that she had a radio. I unfortunately had a smaller radio that I
16 used with the children of Salko Porobic. It was not of a large range."
17 So this is what you stated to the Prosecutor sometime in May of
18 this year; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, can you please tell me what this abbreviation, ham, h-a-m,
21 stands for? You used it, so can you please explain it?
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
23 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, before we go down this path, let me
24 clarify this. This statement was taken by me from this witness when
25 originally we were hoping that she may give part of her evidence under
1 Rule 92 bis. In the interview with her, the interpreter with me was
2 trying to explain that the sort of activities that her sister did with the
3 radio was not on a professional basis. It was as an amateur. There's a
4 saying --
5 MR. PANTELIC: Why don't we hear that from witness, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: No. What --
7 MR. PANTELIC: This kind of explanation, we have a witness here.
8 This is a criminal proceedings, Your Honour. We have our sources, why --
9 MS. REIDY: Because Mr. Pantelic is deliberately trying to put a
10 gloss on the statement.
11 MR. PANTELIC: No.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you wait, Mr. Pantelic. Let's hear Ms. Reidy.
14 MS. REIDY: So I said some sort of like radio ham, meaning that
15 would be an English expression, expression I would use in English, and so
16 the witness said "yes," or the translator said to me "Yes, that sort of
17 thing." So I wrote down ham in inverted commas. It is not an
18 abbreviation for anything. It's not a -- and obviously in the translation
19 they just use the same thing, ham, translating it back into the language
20 for the accused. So for Mr. Pantelic to try to go down the do you -- go
21 down the road of suggesting that this witness used an abbreviation or a
22 word that tried to reflect a unit is not true and I think it's a waste of
23 this Court's time to do that. Because that's simply where the word "ham"
24 came from and it is in inverted commas as a -- you know, ham meaning a
25 slang word.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. All right. Yes, Mr. Pantelic, you can
2 go ahead --
3 MR. PANTELIC:. I absolutely, I agree. Then this witness can say
4 "I don't know anything about ham." Why are we listening all this stuff,
5 you know? It's not fair. This witness is entitled to say "I don't know
6 anything about abbreviation ham."
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Maybe I should ask this question: What is
8 the point of you're asking what type of radio --
9 MR. PANTELIC: It is not the point of, Your Honour, what type of
10 radio is. I tried to clarify certain issues, from my point of view, which
11 was said by this witness.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
13 MR. PANTELIC: And this witness can say, "I didn't use
14 abbreviation ham. That was used by the Prosecutor." And then we go on.
15 It's very simple. Why do we have to hear all these submissions from my
16 learned friend?
17 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The Prosecution has to explain so that they
18 give a clear picture as to how the interview was conducted, and that is
20 So you can proceed, Mr. Pantelic.
21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Please tell me, Mrs. Kapetanovic: When you said
23 here, "Unfortunately I had a small radio," why was it unfortunately so?
24 Did you regret the fact that it was a small one? Did you want to -- did
25 you wish to have a larger one?
1 A. You asked a very good question, Mr. Pantelic. In view of the fact
2 that there was such great pressure exerted and that they were looking for
3 a large radio transmitter, I sincerely regretted the fact that I did not
4 have one, because I would have handed it over right away and then I would
5 spare myself the ensuing threats and pistols shoved in my head, and that
6 is why I said that I regretted it.
7 Q. Can you tell me what is the square area of your apartment?
8 A. 69.75 square metres.
9 Q. How many rooms? Can you describe the apartment, please?
10 A. Two rooms, kitchen, hallway, bathroom, balcony, dining-room.
11 Q. I asked you about how many rooms.
12 A. Two rooms.
13 Q. You lived with your then boyfriend, current husband; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Why do you and your husband need a walkie-talkie to communicate
16 between each other if you only have two rooms?
17 A. Your Honours, I did not procure these walkie-talkies with my
18 current husband. It was purchased by my late husband, Stanisic, who was a
19 great admirer of all things technical. My late husband was a Serb.
20 Q. That's all very well, but I'm now going back to the reply you gave
21 to this Trial Chamber in answer to a question put by the Prosecutor. You
22 said that you had used walkie-talkie to communicate with your husband.
23 Please don't wiggle. I'm asking you very directly: Why would you need a
24 walkie-talkie in a two-room apartment to communicate with your husband?
25 Please answer the question. Was that used perhaps for intelligence
1 activities with your partners in Slavonski Samac?
2 A. Mr. Pantelic, that's all correct. It is true that I used that
3 walkie-talkie with my husband, but while we were fishing. I was on the
4 one bank and he was on the other bank, fishing.
5 Q. So that walkie-talkie wasn't simply intended for home use, in two
6 rooms, in an apartment of 65 square metres; it was also used in the field?
7 A. Yes, it was used on a pond, which is smaller than this room.
8 Q. Please turn to page 32 of this document, paragraph 100. Paragraph
9 100, the first sentence:
10 "I talked to the people from the other side, and I gave them all
11 the information I had ..." As I take it, this was after your exchange and
12 that you gave information to the other side. Won't you agree with me that
13 this information was furnished by you to the Croatian army and its
14 intelligence service and it had to do with the events in Bosanski Samac
15 during your stay there?
16 A. You used a wrong term. It was not Croatian army.
17 Q. Well, to whom from the other side did you give information that
18 you had?
19 A. Mr. Pantelic, my statement reflects that I was taken to Bosnia,
20 which means that that was the HVO, not HV.
21 Q. Very well. So you gave a statement to the representatives of the
22 HVO and their Security Services; isn't that right?
23 A. I gave it to the people who were responsible for civilians.
24 Q. It was the security services of the HVO, weren't they?
25 A. It was the people who were with the HVO and were in charge of
2 Q. I'm asking you, for the third time: Were they members of the HVO
3 security service? Do you have any information to that effect or not?
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
5 MS. REIDY: Again, Mr. Pantelic said it himself. He's asked for
6 the third time. The witness has answered the question, who these people
7 were. They were people responsible for the civilians, they were people
8 responsible for the civilians. And I think for Mr. Pantelic to keep
9 asking the question amounts to badgering. I let it go twice, but this is
10 the third time.
11 MR. PANTELIC: She is avoiding the answer.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: No. She has given the answer according to her
13 knowledge. If you don't agree with her answer, that doesn't mean that she
14 is avoiding the answer.
15 MR. PANTELIC:
16 Q. [Interpretation] When was the last time, Mrs. Kapetanovic, that
17 you talked to Dragan Lukac? Did you hear my question, madam?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Please tell me, when was the last time you talked to Dragan Lukac?
20 A. There was some kind of a celebration in 1993 at his father's. I
21 had an opportunity to greet him.
22 Q. And you had no contact in recent months?
23 A. I never saw this man again in my life. This was the last time.
24 Q. But he uses the same term as you do, "Samac town camp." Did
25 you -- have you read his book perhaps?
1 A. Mr. Pantelic, I'm surprised that it's only the two of us who used
2 that term, "Samac town camp." I read many books.
3 Q. Have you read the books by Dragan -- or a book by Dragan Lukac?
4 A. Certain segments of it, yes, but it's difficult for me to go back
5 to wartime events, and I try to avoid it.
6 Q. Please turn to page 14 of the document in front of you, paragraph
7 39. In that paragraph, you mention organising -- for some women to go to
8 their villages, Tisina, Hasici, and so on. And then you go on to say as
9 follows: "These women brought back to us the information on what was
10 taking place outside." Did you state this to the Prosecution?
11 A. Yes, I did, and I can confirm that now.
12 Q. In view of the fact that these women were from two villages,
13 Tisina and Hasici, who were on the front line, can you tell us whether
14 these women also belonged to your intelligence group in Samac, since they
15 furnished the information back to you? Yes or no, please.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
17 MS. REIDY: The counsel is putting to the witness that she had an
18 intelligence group in Samac, and whatever theory he wants to put up on his
19 defence case is something, but that's simply not true and it's
20 inappropriate to put that in the question.
21 MR. PANTELIC: She can simply say no, Your Honour. I have certain
22 allegations, certain informations with regard to this radio transmissions.
23 So why we --
24 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, no. It's the way you put the question
25 to her. You can make the assertion to her and then she can deny it;
1 thereafter you add whatever questions you want to add, instead of putting
2 them in one question.
3 MR. PANTELIC: I just tried to make a puzzle, because I have
4 various informations here.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Therefore, Mrs. Kapetanovic, tell me, please:
6 These women who went out and brought back the information on what was
7 taking place, did they have some kind of an intelligence link with you so
8 that you could relate this information later on to Croatian army?
9 A. Sir, I had no opportunity to relate any information to anybody
10 else. Can you tell me by what means I could have done that?
11 Q. Well, by using walkie-talkie. Isn't that what you used to convey
13 A. Sir, we are referring to it as a walkie-talkie. I am sorry that I
14 don't have it in front of me now so that I could ask you who could you
15 send any kind of information by means of that walkie-talkie.
16 Q. Well, you explained that to the Prosecution on page 8932, on the
17 5th of June, when asked by the Prosecution to explain what was this
18 walkie-talkie all about, this Motorola. You replied the following, on
19 lines 13 and 15:
20 [In English] "What I mean by this is the complete equipment,
21 including the radio, with its frequencies, and the walkie-talkie, that was
22 used for communicating. That is a radio transmitter, this whole
24 [Interpretation] Do you remember stating this in front of this
25 Trial Chamber?
1 A. Mr. Pantelic --
2 Q. No, no, no. Just please tell me: Do you remember saying this to
3 this Trial Chamber? Let's not go into details.
4 A. You are now discussing my sister's equipment, not my equipment.
5 You are now referring to Croatia, not to Bosnia.
6 Q. Your then-boyfriend and current husband, upon swimming across the
7 river and joining the HVO, did he convey some information that you
8 collected and gathered in Samac for the use of a certain formation,
9 military combat formation? Did you talk to him and do you have any
10 knowledge of this?
11 A. My husband was unable to convey for me any kind of information,
12 either to Croatia or to Bosnia, for the simple fact that I had no
13 information to convey.
14 Q. In your previous statement, you said that you had heard that upon
15 arrival to Crkvina, that you might be exchanged for the Serbs who had been
16 arrested in Odzak. Do you remember that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who did you hear this from?
19 A. From the guards who guarded us there.
20 Q. Do you know how many Serbs were arrested on that occasion in
22 A. I don't have the exact figure, but the figure of 300 was
24 Q. You also brought up the men from Krajina, for whom you cooked
25 lunch and whom you met in the region of Odzak. Do you remember that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Then you go on to say that you gathered some items, some goods,
3 and lined it up along the road for the soldiers who passed by that
5 A. If you have in mind plundering in Odzak, then yes.
6 Q. And we can agree that this was after the corridor was pierced, and
7 the men from Krajina, according to you, were the ones in charge of that
8 operation; isn't that right?
9 A. No. It was the territory held by a group of people from Samac.
10 Q. Do you mean some kind of a military formation from Samac?
11 A. As far as I remember, Odzak was in the hands of the Samac
12 leadership and leading structure of Samac.
13 Q. Did you hear that the 1st Krajina Corps established a military
14 administration in Odzak; yes or no?
15 A. This is the first I'm hearing of it.
16 Q. Do you know about the decision of the government of Republika
17 Srpska providing that all of those who were fit had to participate in
19 A. Yes. It was a so-called work obligation.
20 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, please turn to page 5 of the statement in front
21 of you, fifth line from the top. The sentence goes as follows:
22 "As far as I remember, it was mostly Serbs who entered the
23 entrance where the apartment of Simo Zaric was. I saw Milan Simic, Stevan
24 Todorovic, Miroslav Tadic, a man called Maslic, and other prominent people
25 of Bosanski Samac."
1 I'm asking you now, since my client never visited the apartment of
2 Mr. Zaric, Simo Zaric, and since you have a man Simic here, did you
3 perhaps confuse Milan Simic and Blagoje Simic?
4 A. I said that I had observed a greater frequency --
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, the interpreters won't record
7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I tried to control this witness.
8 I ask very simple questions and she tried to elaborate I don't know what.
9 So please instruct the witness to answer to my question, nothing more.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
11 MR. PANTELIC: Because otherwise I'm in problem, you know.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Once the witness starts talking, since you are using
13 the same language, you allow her to finish, and then you can correct her
14 or object to her answer.
15 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, but it can take minutes and minutes, you know,
16 this kind of explanation.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but then your intervention won't be
18 recorded, because the interpreters won't get it.
19 MR. PANTELIC: I will repeat the question with your permission,
20 Your Honour.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Kapetanovic, please give me yes or no or I
22 don't know answers. I'm asking you now, and please let me finish my
23 question: Is it possible that you confused Milan Simic and Blagoje Simic
24 in this incident? Yes or no or I don't remember.
25 A. Both of them were present.
1 MR. PANTELIC: Can we go to private session, Your Honour, for a
2 minute, please?
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
4 [Private session]
12 Pages 10453 to 10458 – redacted – private session
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE MUMBA: You proceed with your cross-examination,
5 Mr. Pantelic.
6 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Kapetanovic, you lived in the apartment
8 which, in 1992, was socially owned?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That apartment, your late husband, Stanisic, received from his
12 A. Well, it was -- the buying-back process was applied for it, and I
13 then couldn't prove this except for having witnesses, and I wouldn't
14 mention the witness, as the witness is sitting here.
15 Q. Tell me: From what firm did your late husband buy this apartment?
16 A. It was the company SamacTrans.
17 Q. When did the buyback take place? When did he purchase it from
18 this firm, year?
19 A. When the building was still under construction. The building
20 wasn't completed yet, and the exact year I cannot remember.
21 Q. Do you have any knowledge that prior to 2001 it wasn't possible to
22 buy back these apartments in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
23 A. I know it wasn't possible, but I also know that there were
24 privately owned apartments.
25 Q. A few years ago, when, from Germany, via your lawyer, you
1 initiated this procedure, you, in line with the law, bought back this
3 A. Yes. I went through the entire procedure.
4 Q. And then you sold this apartment to the person who was in the
6 A. Precisely so.
7 Q. What is the name of the person to whom you sold the apartment?
8 A. Mrs. Ljiljana Krstanovic.
9 Q. She was already in that apartment on some earlier basis and simply
10 bought the apartment from you?
11 A. Precisely so.
12 Q. Do you know that legal possibilities exist that any person from
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina, irrespective of ethnicity, can, from the entity
14 Republika Srpska, or the Federation, can ask for damages and compensation
15 for the privately owned goods which were used in the course of the
17 A. No.
18 Q. So you don't know of this?
19 A. Nobody told me. Nobody informed me of this.
20 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, could you just bear with me for a
21 second? I think I'm almost finished my cross-examination.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.
23 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I've finished with my
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.
3 Re-examination, Ms. Reidy?
4 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
5 Re-examined by Ms. Reidy:
6 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, I'd like to start with a response you gave in
7 fact not to one of Defence counsel but to the Bench yesterday, when you
8 were asked to further explain or expand on the circumstances in which you
9 were exchanged at Dragalici. And you said to the Bench that you were
10 asked whether or not you wanted to be exchanged, and you said that if you
11 were to return to Bosnia, you were told that you would be free there and
12 that you would go to the town. Now, I have recorded in your statement
13 from the 20th of May -- or from May 2002 that had you not -- had you
14 decided that you didn't want to be exchanged, that you would not -- you
15 said: "I would not -- I could have stayed in Bosanski Samac municipality
16 if I wanted, but only in Zasavica, not in my apartment, and not free to
17 live my life. My husband would not have been free to be with me."
18 Now, can I just ask you: Which of those is correct, to the best
19 of your knowledge? If you had decided not to be -- if you had decided you
20 didn't want to be exchanged, is it correct that you were told you would be
21 free, or was it yours understanding that you would have to go back to
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, before the answer is given.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I object to this question, because in
25 addition to the answer to Judge Lindholm, she also answered today, when my
1 colleague Krgovic posed the question. I think that this has been already
2 clarified and that it is a superfluous question.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, I think the Trial Chamber agrees with
4 Mr. Lukic.
5 MS. REIDY: Well, okay. But, Your Honour, now I have two
6 different pieces of information, and I just want to re-examine on that
7 point, whether or not -- I don't know the question that Mr. -- I'm not --
8 I'm not familiar now with the question that Mr. Lukic says his co-counsel
9 put. I'm not calling into question that she was asked whether she wanted
10 to be exchanged or not, but just --
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but looking at the evidence which this witness
12 has given and the answers on that particular one whether or not she wanted
13 to be exchanged, where she could have gone and things like that, I think
14 we have heard sufficient information from her.
15 MS. REIDY: Okay.
16 Q. Mrs. Kapetanovic, you were asked a lot about exchanges, and
17 co-counsel for Mr. Tadic said that there were exchanges that took place --
18 many exchanges that took place after yours. Were there people left behind
19 in Zasavica when you were exchanged on the 5th of November, 1992?
20 A. In Zasavica itself, no.
21 Q. Were all the detainees from Zasavica exchanged on the 5th of
22 November, or were only some of you put up for exchange?
23 A. The majority of people were exchanged, but in Zasavica, some
24 remained which had not been exchanged.
25 Q. For example, was Blanka Jelavic exchanged with you on the 5th of
2 A. No, she wasn't exchanged.
3 Q. Was Blanka free to move around after the 5th of November? Did she
4 have freedom of movement outside of Zasavica?
5 A. No. Nobody had any freedom of movement outside Zasavica.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, I just want to ask Mrs. Kapetanovic a
8 When she says that after she left some people were not exchanged,
9 I just want to be clear whether what she means is: On the day that she
10 was exchanged, some people remained behind and were exchanged later, if
11 she knows that. Or is it -- her answer that there are people in Zasavica
12 who remained there and were never exchanged? Ms. Kapetanovic, you can
13 answer that question.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All people who were in Zasavica, who
15 were detained and who lived there, abandoned Zasavica via the exchange,
16 and all had to be exchanged.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
18 Ms. Reidy.
19 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
20 Q. Just one more thing on the matter of your exchange. Do you
21 remember if on the exchange of the 5th of November you were exchanged with
22 some men from the second -- or from the primary school, for example,
23 Muhamed Bicic; a German citizen, Jurgen Janke?
24 A. Yes, I remember that.
25 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, just for the record, I believe this is
1 the same exchange which we've already played the videotape of twice, P27.
2 I didn't want to do it with this witness, as it's already been put to two
3 witnesses who were involved in the same exchange, but maybe the Bench
4 would just like to take note of that.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
6 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
7 Q. Ms. Kapetanovic, another issue you've been asked questions about.
8 You said that -- you were asked about the fact that you saw Mr. Blagoje
9 Simic and Mr. Simo Zaric together in or around the vicinity of
10 your apartment block, 62 Edvarda Kardelja Street, and in response to a
11 question from Mr. Lazarevic, you said that you had concluded that their
12 ideas were the same, and what political party -- "and what political party
13 of each of them was called, I don't know that." Although you don't know
14 the technicalities of which political party they belonged to, was it your
15 observation that they associated together in the period you were talking
16 about, March and April 1992?
17 A. Yes, that was my observation.
18 Q. And you personally, with your own eyes, saw them associating
20 A. I drew the conclusion on the basis of these visits which I have
22 Q. Did you see Blagoje Simic yourself with your own eyes?
23 A. Yes, I saw Blagoje Simic.
24 Q. Is it to confirm --
25 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, could we just know where, when, and on
1 which occasion she saw Blagoje Simic? Because from this particular
2 question, we don't see any relation with that.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
4 MR. PANTELIC: It's very general.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
6 MS. REIDY:
7 Q. Is the Blagoje Simic that you said you saw -- I will come to
8 Mr. Pantelic's [indiscernible] -- the Blagoje Simic you identified at the
9 beginning of this trial sitting here in this room?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Where did you see Blagoje Simic?
12 A. I saw him at the entrance area of the fourth entrance into the
13 building, in that area.
14 Q. Did you see him associating with Simo Zaric?
15 A. I couldn't define it in this way, but I saw him at the entrance,
16 at the entrance door number 4 of that building.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: And the period? What time?
18 MS. REIDY:
19 Q. And can you finish that off? When did you see him there?
20 A. It was in the period preceding the war, sometime before the war.
21 Q. Could you be a little bit more precise? Was it 1991 or beginning
22 of 1992, or are you not able to make it more precise?
23 A. It was taking place in 1992, before the war, in March and the
24 beginning of April of that year.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: It's time to adjourn. How much time are you going
1 to take?
2 MS. REIDY: I have maybe only five minutes. I don't know --
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but the problem is the other session in the
4 afternoon, so we have to rise now and continue tomorrow at 9.00.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 3rd day of July,
7 2002, at 9.00 a.m.