1 Tuesday, 16 July 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We're continuing with the Prosecution -- oh,
11 cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic.
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
13 WITNESS: WITNESS A [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]
16 Q. Good afternoon, sir. We will be continuing with our
17 cross-examination where we left off yesterday. If you remember, we were
18 looking at some photographs of the SUP building in Bosanski Samac, and now
19 I would like, very briefly, in two or three questions, clear up some
20 things. I understand fully that it is very hard for you to think back
21 about all those events, but I think that we need to clarify the --
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... the usher
23 with the photograph F53. It's Exhibit P14 and the photograph number is
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please wait for the end of the
1 interpretation before continuing on in English.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Sir, I'm specifically interested in the upper right-hand corner of
4 this building. Do you see that window?
5 A. Yes. That's exactly the one.
6 Q. Can you please tell us, what is this room?
7 A. This room that I'm indicating right now is the room of the
8 communications centre, where the communications centre was.
9 Q. Thank you very much. Just one more question pertaining to this
10 photograph. On the ground floor, the second window from the door, with
11 the bars, can you please tell me -- yes, that's the one- what room was
13 A. Yes. This was a room where the cell was, and I remember quite
14 clearly that I was in that cell.
15 Q. Thank you very much.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... that the
17 witness pointed a window on the upper right corner of the house,
18 indicating that this is a communications centre.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: And the second window, looking from the door, on
21 the right side, and he -- indicating that this is a space where the cell
22 where he was incarcerated was.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: And now I would just like the assistance in
25 showing the photograph F52. I don't need this photograph any more.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, if I understood you correctly, according to
2 what you indicated, this was the room where the cells were, but this
3 photograph was taken inside the building. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes. However, this table -- this desk was not here, this chair
5 was not here, and the wall here was not the way it is now. It was all
6 covered in blood.
7 Q. Yes, but at any rate, this is the area, but of course the
8 furniture -- I assume that it was the way you describe it. But what I
9 wanted to know is whether this is that room or not. Can we agree on that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So in this respect, I'm only interested in one more thing and then
12 we will move on to another topic. There are two cells here; is that
13 correct, or rather, you can see for yourself that there are two doors
14 here, which would mean that there are two cells, one next to the other?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And this room is located on the ground floor of the SUP building;
17 is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Across the corridor from the doors to these cells there is
20 nothing; there is only the wall. There are no rooms that one could enter
21 from that part. Is that correct?
22 A. There's nothing there. This is the wall that divided the cells
23 from the toilet, but one could not enter from this room but from another
25 Q. Thank you very much. I will ask you one more question in this
1 regard. This is the only room in the SUP building where the cells were.
2 There are no cells on the first floor. Is that correct?
3 A. I don't know whether there were any. While I was there, there
4 weren't any. I didn't go to any other cells, apart from these ones here.
5 Q. Well, you see, I don't know what the situation was before or
6 afterwards. I'm interested in the period while you were there, and from
7 your statement, one could see that you were also upstairs in Dragan
8 Lukac's office. Can you please tell me: Were there any cells, any room
9 with cells on the first floor?
10 A. I don't think so.
11 Q. Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lazarevic. I'd like to ask
13 Witness A: Looking at the photograph, what is on the immediate left-hand
14 side of the photograph, to the left of the numbers 1, 3? Is it a wall,
15 another cell perhaps, a doorway? I'd like to have some sense of, if I was
16 standing here, what I would be looking at. I hope the question is clear.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Do you want me to clarify all
18 this issue with the witness? Or maybe he can answer straight.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can give you my
20 answer immediately. I don't know what was here indicated with numbers 1,
21 3, but I don't know that this cell, it's a room. As you can see, this is
22 not a big room. And as you entered it, to the left there was one door.
23 This is one door to one of the cells, and this is the other door. Here
24 it's leaning against the window that's looking out into the yard. That's
25 the other cell. So this room here, it was divided in half, here up to the
1 window, and to the right there was the wall, and here there was the
2 entrance. And all this that I'm indicating now was made of some kind of
3 steel, and it was painted this kind of a drab colour, SMB colour. Up here
4 you can see the bars. So you can see, this is the first door, this is the
5 other door, the first cell, the other cell. In my time, two people were
6 here, and I was in the other cell with another prisoner. So when you
7 opened -- when they closed this, we were unable to open it from the
8 inside. We only got air through here and we could only look out at the
9 wall. In fact, they could only look out at the wall, while we could look
10 out through the window, if they allowed us, and if somebody opened the
11 door, we were able to see, more or less, and recognise a person, if they
12 allowed us or if we dared to look out. So this is a small room, quite
13 small room, but it was also divided in two. This was made of iron or
14 steel, and this wall here was all covered in blood and dirty, because I
15 assume that other people had been imprisoned here before. There was this
16 floor. And we had some kind of benches to sit on. And this is where I
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe I could clarify even more. If you look at
19 the photograph, on the right side you see a door handle. So this is taken
20 from some sort of corridor, and the door was open. So the doors are on
21 this side, so when they closed the door, that's ...
22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher. I don't need this any more.
24 And may the record reflect that the witness identified the cell
25 where he was incarcerated.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Sir, now I would like to move on to the topic of your meeting
4 Mr. Zaric in the SUP building. You spoke about that here before this
5 Trial Chamber. You said that you had gone to Milos Savic and that you
6 heard Simo Zaric, that you had asked Milos Savic to take you to Simo Zaric
7 to talk to him. I would like to clarify a few details regarding this
9 When you spoke to Mr. Zaric, Milos Savic was also present there;
10 is that correct?
11 A. No.
12 Q. So if I understand you correctly, Savic got out and you were on
13 your own with Simo Zaric; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember whether on that occasion, when you were there with
16 Mr. Zaric, that he said that nationalist parties were responsible for all
17 that was happening at the time? Do you perhaps remember that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Zaric did not blame you for anything in the course of that
20 conversation; is that correct?
21 A. Well, he was quite angry. He was quite angry also with me. But
22 he was angry in general.
23 Q. However, he didn't tell you, "You are responsible, you are guilty
24 of this and that, you had this or you did that," he didn't blame you for
25 anything, you personally; is that correct?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Can you please tell me, with regard to that conversation, whether
3 Zaric said that he knew that Sulejman Tihic would be treated as a
4 political prisoner, together with Izet Izetbegovic, Dragan Lukac, and he
5 also mentioned your name, and he said that he hoped that you would be
6 released quite soon. Was anything said to that effect at that time?
7 A. Not to that effect, not in that sense. When I spoke to Mr. Zaric,
8 I asked him, "Well, what is this? What's happening? You've seen what I
9 look like. What am I guilty of? If I were guilty of anything, I wouldn't
10 stay here in Samac; I would have gone somewhere." And then I told him,
11 "Don't put me in the same position or the same situation as Mr. Tihic.
12 Tihic was the president of the party." I didn't belong to any party. I
13 was there as a reserve officer of the MUP, of the legal police force of
14 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
15 Q. Yes. I'm sorry, sir. I didn't mean to interrupt your answer.
16 Please do not misunderstand me. This is word for word what you already
17 stated here. We already have that on record. I wanted to speed things up
18 and to obtain all the facts that we need while respecting your time. This
19 is precisely what you stated already here.
20 A. If I may just correct you. In that conversation, Lukac or
21 Izetbegovic were not mentioned at all in that conversation. At that time
22 I had no contact -- I had had no contact with Lukac or with Izetbegovic.
23 I hadn't seen Izetbegovic at all. I was brought into the office and
24 beaten together with Mr. Tihic, and that's when Simo told me, "You will be
25 exchanged, you and Tihic will be exchanged as political prisoners." Now,
1 if I have to explain to the Trial Chamber how the conversation went on,
2 that he got down and then went back, if that's necessary, I will clarify
3 all that and I will explain, but if it's not necessary ...
4 Q. Well, if my learned colleague from the Prosecution thinks that he
5 needs to obtain some other details regarding to this issue, he will do so
6 in the re-direct. I have to say that I understood quite clearly what you
7 just said, and I don't think it's necessary to clarify this any further.
8 I'm interested in another thing, though. In that conversation
9 with Mr. Zaric, when you spoke about that, you said that he wore a
10 camouflage uniform and that he had a white band on his shoulder board. Do
11 you remember that you said that?
12 A. I remember it quite clearly. He wore a uniform, the uniform that
13 we call a camouflage uniform. Some people call it a multicoloured
14 uniform, but it's a camouflage uniform. He had a satchel with him, a
15 leather satchel. He had a Scorpion, and now I don't remember whether it
16 was on the left or right shoulder, but he had a white band that was tied
17 to the upper part of the uniform. But I think -- I rather think it was
18 the left shoulder.
19 Q. Sir, on the 8th, 9th, and 10th of October, and the 6th of
20 December, 1994, you gave a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor of
21 the Tribunal in The Hague, a Mrs. Nancy Paterson, who worked in the OTP.
22 She was in charge of this case, and to Mrs. Maria Velikonja; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. This is an official statement that was given to the investigators
1 in the presence of the Prosecutors of the Tribunal in The Hague; is that
3 A. I know who was there, but I don't know the exact capacity in which
4 they were there.
5 Q. When you gave the statement, you gave it voluntarily, of your own
6 free will; it was your decision to do so. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. No one exerted any kind of pressure on you for you to make the
9 statement; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And no one influenced you in regard of the contents of the
12 statement, in other words, so that you state something that -- that
13 something was stated that you didn't actually say or something like that;
14 is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You signed that statement; is that correct?
17 A. I think so.
18 Q. Before signing it, you familiarised yourself with the contents; is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes. It was interpreted to me.
21 Q. In 1994, when you gave that statement, can we agree that your
22 recollection of the events in April 1992 and onwards was better than it is
23 now, in year 2002, ten years later? Is that correct?
24 A. Well, regarding some things, perhaps yes, but the things that
25 affect me, the conversations and the suffering, I think I will remember
1 that for a long time.
2 Q. Now, I would like to show you a detail regarding the statement,
3 and it pertains precisely to the conversation with Simo Zaric in the SUP
4 building. It's on page 11 of your statement. Since we're talking about
5 only a few sentences, I think that the simplest thing would be for me to
6 read it to you, to quote from the statement. My colleagues from the
7 Office of the Prosecutor will make sure that what I'm reading is exactly
8 the way it is written. The ERN number of this page is 00637838, and it
9 says the following, pertaining to the conversation of Mr. Zaric --
10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection. I'm just trying to follow the
13 evidence. I wonder if my learned friend knows where in the English
14 statement it might be.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, I'm afraid that I don't have the English
17 version here. I just have a B/C/S version. And my colleague would look
18 at it in a second and they will inform the Prosecution in one second.
19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lazarevic. You could just give us
20 the paragraph number, couldn't you?
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Actually, in this statement, there are no
22 paragraph numbers. So, this is a statement that was given in 1994. This
23 is not his statement according to Rule 92 bis.
24 It's on page 12 -- sorry. It's page 11, and it starts with "three
25 or four times during the night ..."
1 Q. [Interpretation] So, the Prosecutor now has it in front of him,
2 and there's a statement that I noticed -- a sentence that I noticed here
3 in your statement, and it goes as follows, regarding your conversation
4 with Mr. Zaric:
5 "I asked him what was going to happen with us, would they have to
6 exchange us."
7 So you told us here that Mr. Zaric told us that you would be
8 exchanged, but in your statement it comes across that you, in fact, were
9 the one who asked Mr. Zaric whether you should be exchanged. So, what is
10 true? Is it true what it says here in your statement from 1994?
11 A. I don't remember asking him that.
12 Q. And do you allow for the possibility that it was that way, that it
13 was you, in fact, who asked him whether you would be exchanged and asked
14 him what was going to happen to you?
15 A. Well, it could be, because I insisted, I asked to see Simo Zaric,
16 because I thought that he was the only one able to help me.
17 Q. Thank you very much. I have just one more question regarding
18 this. During that conversation, did Zaric tell you that he was unable to
19 prevent you being beaten? Do you remember him telling you that? Do you
20 remember that detail?
21 A. Unfortunately, I don't remember that.
22 Q. Sir, now I'm going back to that same statement of yours from 1994,
23 and the following paragraph. The Prosecutor should have it in front of
24 him. You say that Mr. Zaric said that, "We would be exchanged soon, that
25 he was unable to prevent us being beaten."
1 So, this is what it says in your statement from 1994. Do you
2 remember that? Do you remember that Mr. Zaric said something like that,
3 that he was not able to prevent you from being beaten?
4 A. I don't know. I don't remember. I just told you that it could be
5 so because I was the one who asked to see him. He saw what condition I
6 was in, and the only thing I cared about was saving myself.
7 Q. Thank you very much. And I have identical information regarding
8 your condition from Mr. Zaric. He did tell me that you were in a very bad
9 shape, so it is quite possible that you can't remember every single
11 Now, I would like to turn to the time when you were transferred to
12 Brcko. You, naturally, were not the only one who was transferred to
13 Brcko; there were other prisoners there with you. And bearing in mind the
14 fact that you were in a very bad shape, I'm going to ask you whether you
15 can confirm for me the fact that this transfer of yours to Brcko took
16 place on the 26th of April, 1992, on the very same day when, in the
17 courtyard of the TO building, Dikan was killed.
18 A. I don't remember what date it was exactly when we were transferred
19 to Brcko. All I know is that two or three days later, approximately, was
20 the 1st of May, and I know that we were in Brcko on the 1st of May. I saw
21 with my own eyes Lugar beating Dikan, and allegedly he was killed later.
22 Q. Let me just ask you: So did that take place on the same day? You
23 were transferred in the evening hours on that same day, when you saw Lugar
24 beating Dikan? Naturally, you can only state what you know.
25 A. I don't remember, because I was loaded on the truck from the MUP
1 building, together with several other people, whereas the others were
2 collected at the headquarters building. I was taken from the MUP building
3 to the headquarters building and then back to MUP. They did what they
4 wanted, so that finally we were all disoriented. But I know for a fact
5 that I was finally loaded onto the truck from the MUP building.
6 I was in such bad shape that I was unable to climb onto the
7 truck. The others had to lift me up. It was somewhat dark at the time.
8 Q. Sir, some details that I discussed with Mr. Zaric and that have to
9 do with that are somewhat different from your account. They're not very
10 material details, but, however, Mr. Zaric told me that when he had entered
11 the TO courtyard, he was together with Savo Cancarevic and Mihaljo and
12 Topolovac and that Topolovac had read out the names from the list and that
13 you were behind the doors, inside the TO building, almost unconscious, and
14 that others were trying to assist you. Allegedly, even Mr. Zaric
15 approached you behind that door. You asked him for water.
16 So could it possibly be that this is how it was, bearing in mind
17 that you were in a very bad shape? Mr. Zaric, in fact, even told me that
18 he hardly recognised you upon seeing you. Did it perhaps happen in the
19 way that I just described to you?
20 A. While I was imprisoned, I unfortunately was somebody who was most
21 mistreated physically, and on several occasions I was even unconscious
22 about my whereabouts. I know that people had to feed me. Some people
23 gave me water, some people had to throw water over me, but I don't know
24 who these people were. All I can confirm is that when we were boarded on
25 the truck, Mr. Zaric was present, as was Topolovac and Cancarevic.
1 He was probably in a better position to see what was happening
2 there than I was, because my eyes were almost completely closed at the
3 time. I could only hear things, but I couldn't see anything.
4 Q. Well, you know, this is what Mr. Zaric told me, that your
5 condition was incredible, that you were basically unable to open your
7 I would like to ask you now what is your opinion regarding this
8 transfer to Brcko. Do you think that that was done at the insistence and
9 organisation of Mr. Zaric --
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, I mean, the question
11 can only lead to speculation. This witness was barely conscious. How can
12 he comment on the motives behind the transfer, whether it was done at the
13 insistence or organisation of Mr. Zaric?
14 Furthermore, it invites his opinion, and that's again just not
15 necessary, unless this witness has got some direct insight into what
16 motivated the transfer, something he heard or saw or has been told, then
17 of course I have no objection. But the way the question is started to be
18 phrased, it seems to me that we're going straight into some sort of
19 invitation to speculate.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I was asking for personal opinion in this
22 respect. Of course, I can rephrase this question in some other way. I
23 was just trying to simplify about his opinion and what he feels about that
24 now, but I will rephrase the question.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please rephrase your question.
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Sir, let me ask you this way: It is not disputed at all that you
3 were in a critical condition while you were in the TO building and when
4 you were transferred to Brcko. I'm interested in the following: Have you
5 talked to somebody about this transfer to Brcko and how it came about?
6 A. Well, based on things that I have learned, and in accordance with
7 my opinion, we were transferred to Brcko because they wanted to transfer
8 us from Samac because of those Serbs from Serbia who mistreated us the
9 most. This is what we learned later on in Brcko.
10 The other version, the other rumour, was that we had been
11 transferred because other people had been arrested and they had nowhere to
12 take them to. But my personal opinion is that the first version is more
13 probable, that they wanted to save us from those Serbs from Serbia.
14 Q. Yes, thank you.
15 Now, we will cover, in brief, your stay in Brcko. You told us
16 what it was like there. Do you remember that upon your arrival to Brcko,
17 Mr. Zaric came the very next day?
18 A. Let me repeat once again that I was brought to Brcko in such a
19 serious condition. Everybody had plastic handcuffs on them. I was the
20 one without handcuffs. When we got there, they lined us up, and all I
21 could see was some light, a little bit of light. My name was called out
22 and I was immediately taken to another room. After that, Sulejman Tihic
23 and Dragan Lukac were brought there as well.
24 Now, was it the following day or the day after that, I can't tell
25 you for sure. All I know is that Mr. Zaric visited us in that room. I
1 couldn't see him very well, but I could hear him. He was accompanied by
2 another person called Captain Petrovic. He was the security officer with
3 the former JNA, and I remember Lukac asking me whether I knew who that
4 person was. He referred to Petrovic. I replied to him that I didn't but
5 that I had heard of him.
6 One of them -- I don't remember whom -- said he should be taken to
7 see the doctor. I truly don't remember who said that. All I know is that
8 no doctor ever came to see me.
9 Q. Nobody beat you in Brcko; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The meals were more regular than while in the TO building; is that
13 A. Yes. We received it more regularly; however, I couldn't eat,
14 others had to feed me. But I guess one could say that it was better than
15 in the TO building in Samac.
16 Q. And as a result of those relatively better conditions, you were
17 able to recover somewhat and get on your feet; is that right?
18 A. Yes. It was a little bit better there.
19 Q. Did you happen to hear later on that Zaric was the one who
20 initiated your transfer to Brcko? I realise that you were unable to know
21 that at the time, but did you happen to hear this later?
22 A. Well, listen. I don't know who initiated that. It is possible
23 that he did it. If he had influence there, then it is likely. I don't
24 know who was behind it, but whoever did it, I want to personally thank
25 that person, both on my own behalf and on behalf of everybody else who
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 I would now like to turn to some details that have to do with the
4 day of exchange, but also some things that you stated earlier, and that
5 have to do with the information that you obtained from your wife. You
6 told, during chief examination, that your wife went to Odzak and was told
7 there that everything was done in order to facilitate your exchange and
8 that as a result of that she was taken to the room where she could
9 overhear the conversation to that effect.
10 After your exchange, meaning after the 4th of July, 1992, you
11 heard all this from your wife; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did your wife happen to tell you when did this event take place
14 when she was taken to the room to hear the conversation in Odzak? Did she
15 tell you when did that take place?
16 A. According to her, and now that I'm able to analyse all of these
17 events, it could have been somewhere before the 24th or 25th, because
18 between the 24th and 26th of May, the four of us were brought from Serbia
19 in order to be exchanged. That's what we were told, at least. Since the
20 exchange did not take place until the beginning of July, I suppose that it
21 could have been, as I've just told you, at the end of May. My wife at the
22 time was told that we were in Serbia.
23 Q. Did your wife tell you something about who was present in that
24 room in Odzak and between whom did the conversation take place? Or
25 rather, who was the person on the Samac side taking part in the
1 conversation? Did your wife tell you about these persons? Did your wife
2 know these persons or do you know them?
3 A. She told me about one person.
4 Q. Can you give us the name of that person?
5 A. Ante Gujic [as interpreted].
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I think the name is with K, for the
7 G. Here in the transcript is says G, G-i-c. It's with K.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: How do you spell it?
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. K-u-j-i-c.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. It will be corrected.
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Was it just that person, Mr. Kujic present there, or were there
13 some other persons present during that conversation?
14 A. I didn't go into great detail with her regarding that. I don't
15 like going back to that. All she told me was that she went on a number of
16 occasions, that she sought this on a number of occasions too, and on that
17 occasion Kujic permitted her to be present when that conversation about
18 the exchange took place.
19 So this was done in order to convince her that they didn't want to
20 exchange me and that they asked for two pilots in exchange for me. Later
21 on I inquired around about whether these pilots really existed, and I was
22 told that they never existed.
23 Q. Just one more question regarding Mr. Kujic, whom you have
24 mentioned. Can you tell us where does he hail from?
25 A. I didn't know him before. Now I know that he lives in Croatia.
1 Q. And how come he was in Odzak and took place in these negotiations,
2 if he was originally from Croatia?
3 JUDGE MUMBA: If you understood the witness's answer, he said he
4 didn't know him before. Later on he came to know that he's from Croatia,
5 not that he was living -- yes.
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Okay.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I would like now to focus on the very day of
8 your exchange. Let me just ask you one more thing regarding this. You
9 have already stated here that your wife used to work and that she had been
10 hired by Mr. Zaric and that she had known him for many years. I even have
11 some information indicating that you, your wife, Mr. Zaric, and his wife
12 vacationed together several times and that you have a lot in common.
13 So isn't it unusual, then, that your wife, who knows Mr. Zaric
14 very well, did not go to see him and ask him whether he could help you
15 regarding her husband?
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, that's first of all
17 inviting him to speculate on his wife's motivations; and secondly, I don't
18 know if Mr. Lazarevic recalls, but he said in evidence that his wife left
19 on the 16th of April and was in Croatian-held territory throughout the
20 period of time.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: -- throughout the period of time until his
23 exchange. I'm pretty sure that was his evidence in chief. So I don't
24 know if -- unless I'm mistaken, I don't know if Mr. Lazarevic is expecting
25 that she would have crossed enemy lines.
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: I'm talking about her presence in Odzak and this
2 whole episode took place in Odzak. This is the way I understood.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes. I don't think there's any question --
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: So this is not Croatia. This is still
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes. Yes. It may well be. But I understood
7 it was held by Croatian forces, unless I'm wrong. I mean, there's been
8 evidence in the fall of Odzak, and she was in areas controlled by Croatian
9 forces that may have been Bosnia-Herzegovina. But the question is why
10 didn't she go and see Zaric, Mr. Zaric.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Only the wife can answer that.
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: That was not my question. I apologise. I --
13 first of all, my question was not why she didn't went to see Mr. Zaric,
14 why she didn't speak with Mr. Zaric when she already heard him --
15 MR. DI FAZIO: On the radio.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: On the radio, yes.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: My apologies. I misunderstood, then. I thought
18 counsel was asking this witness why his wife didn't go into
19 Serb-controlled Bosanski Samac and speak to Mr. Zaric. I thought that was
20 a bit unrealistic, but I apologise. I misunderstood the question.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, anyway, that question of mine was a bit
23 speculative regarding this witness. But maybe he spoke with his wife and
24 maybe he asked her, "Why didn't you do that?"
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, maybe, because only the wife who was present
1 could answer that.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes --
3 JUDGE MUMBA: How much more time, Mr. Lazarevic?
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: 10 to 15 minutes, not more than that.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Please. All right.
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Sir, did you perhaps ask your wife about the situation when this
8 happened, did you ask her, "Why didn't you talk to Zaric and tell him to
9 do something to have you transferred to the other side"? Did you speak
10 about this topic with her at all?
11 A. My wife told me that she had been allowed to get in and to hear
12 the negotiations, and they had told her -- they indicated with the gesture
13 with their fingers that she would keep quiet, and she had heard the whole
14 conversation. Then they told her, "See, you can't say that we are not
15 asking for him."
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 A. Another thing that I wanted to note regarding what Mr. Lazarevic
18 has just said: It is correct that we were on good terms, that my
19 relationship with Mr. Zaric in private life was a good one up until 1992.
20 I would also like to note that my wife, while the phones were
21 still in working order, in April, she called all the neighbours that lived
22 near us. She called the police because she knew some of them. And let me
23 give you an example. Mihaljo Topolovac told her, "Everything's fine.
24 Your husband will be here. Nobody's touched him. He will be
25 interrogated, and if he has no blame, if he's not guilty of anything, he
1 will come home." Everybody that she got in touch with told her the same
3 Q. Sir, I would now like to go through the day of your actual
4 exchange. You told us here already that you were taken from the police
5 station and that you were among the first ones to get on the bus in front
6 of the school and that then you had to wait for the bus to be filled with
7 all the other people that were to be exchanged.
8 Do you remember an incident that occurred at that time, when the
9 police officers from Gorica came, and that they wanted to get you off the
10 bus? Do you remember that?
11 A. Could you please clarify where?
12 Q. You entered the bus in front of the high school building; that was
13 the incident that I want to talk about now. That's the first incident.
14 So you are already on the bus, and several police officers came
15 from Gorica. They saw you and wanted to get you off the bus, because they
16 didn't want to allow you to be exchanged and they wanted to keep you
17 there. Do you remember that?
18 A. Let me tell you: When I was brought to Samac, when I was put on
19 the bus, I didn't look left or right. I just stood there and I could
20 hardly wait for the bus to be filled with people and for us to leave.
21 Believe me, I don't really remember that, the events in Samac.
22 As regards Samac, in fact, I remember some other incidents, but I
23 don't remember this one in Samac. I really don't. That's the first time
24 I hear about it.
25 Q. Of course, I cannot insist on you answering about things that you
1 don't remember, but I want to know whether you remember an incident that
2 occurred in Lipovac, when some soldiers from Vukovar also wanted to board
3 the bus and to take you out of the bus, you personally, and to do
4 something to you. I wouldn't want to speculate what they wanted to do,
5 but at any rate, do you remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember that Zaric stood between you and those people, and
8 not only him, but some other people from Samac?
9 A. I remember just that on the 5th of July -- we were brought there
10 on the 4th -- when we were supposed to go for the exchange from the stop,
11 some people came there and walked around the bus and came to the window
12 where I was sitting, knocking on the pane, jumping onto the bus.
13 I was sitting next to a man, whose full name I remember, and he
14 told me, "Let's change seats." And I said, "No, no. I'd rather remain
15 where I am." I was sitting in the middle of the bus. I remember that I
16 was sitting on the left-hand side. That was the side where the driver's
17 seat is.
18 There was some kind of a ruckus there at the entry to the bus.
19 Some people were not allowed to get in. I don't know who was there, but I
20 do know that they wanted to take me out of the bus. But the security that
21 was there would not allow them to take me out of the bus.
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I would like to tender two documents
24 into evidence. These are lists of exchanged persons for July 4th, 1992.
25 First list is a list of exchanged women and children. This is the
1 document that we received from the Office of the Prosecution. We have
2 official translation. And I would like the witness to take a look at the
3 document regarding certain names that are on this list.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Does the document have an ERN number, I wonder?
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, it does. 00734763.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: I already gave a copy to our colleagues from the
9 Prosecution. It was yesterday, so they do have this. Their document. We
10 received it from the OTP.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, this is the document that we received from
12 the Prosecution. If you could perhaps put the B/C/S version on the ELMO.
13 The two versions are exactly, in fact, the same, because it's just a list
14 of names, but this would allow the defendants to follow.
15 A. Well, the letters are rather small, so I don't see it will be
16 quite legible.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Mr. Usher, if you can magnify a bit this document,
18 because the witness is complaining about letters that are very small.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: You can direct the witness to the numbers of the
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I will direct the witness to the numbers.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Well, sir, I think that now we can read it quite
23 clearly on our screens. The person listed under 9, you will agree with me
24 that it says here Cvitkusic, Ljuba.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know this person, personally? Her nickname is Ljupka.
2 A. No.
3 Q. If I were to tell you that this is the daughter of Ivana Prgomet,
4 perhaps now this would remind you. It would be easier for you.
5 A. If I'm not mistaken, Cvitkusic would then be her married name.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what was her married name? Prgomet?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know her, then?
10 A. No, but I can now tell who the person would be.
11 Q. All right. Now we have under 10, Matic Adila, and it says plus 2.
12 This means, or at least according to the practice that we've seen here
13 at the Tribunal, this would mean that she had two children with her. Do
14 you know Adila Matic? She is the wife of Ante Matic.
15 A. Of Ante Matic. I don't know who Anto Matic would be.
16 Q. He's Djuro Prgomet's cousin.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. Nephew.
18 A. Well, if she is from Samac, could you please tell me who she is,
19 because this last name, Matic, it's a Croatian last name, and Adila,
20 judging from her first name, I would say she is a Muslim.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC:
22 Q. [Interpretation] All right. Here we have the next person, Mara
23 Matic. She is Djuro Prgomet's sister, married to a man by the name of
25 A. I see the name, but I don't know her. I don't know these people.
1 Q. Under number 13, we have Snjezana Prgomet. Do you know her, by
2 any chance?
3 A. Well, the name Snjezana rings a bell, but now if you could just
4 remind me. This name Prgomet is probably her married name.
5 Q. This is Mario Prgomet's sister. So that would not be her married
7 A. So she is still unmarried?
8 Q. Yes. And here we have also Mara Prgomet, under number 14. Do you
9 know her? She is Djuro Prgomet's wife?
10 A. Well, I do know quite a few people, but I'm really sorry. Perhaps
11 I do know Djuro, I don't remember Mara any more. But I know approximately
12 where their house is, and I guess that these would be the people that I'm
13 thinking of.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic, what are you trying to establish on
15 this list?
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: I will get to my point in this second.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because we are not getting anywhere with the
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that we will get in a second.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you said that you knew Djuro Prgomet, and
21 all the people here are women of Croatian ethnic origin related to Djuro
22 Prgomet; is that correct?
23 A. Well, they are named Prgomet, but I don't know if they're related
24 to him. Now, you are saying how they are related to him, but I don't know
1 Q. I'm asking you this because of the following fact: All these
2 persons are related to Zaric, whose daughter, Natasa Prgomet was married
3 to a member of that family. That was her father-in-law, his brother, his
4 wife, sister-in-law, and their two children. Do you now remember that?
5 A. I remember, but I don't -- I can't recall the image now, but I do
6 know that she was married to that family, to the family of Djuro Prgomet.
7 I think they lived in Samac, in Pionirska Street, near Mebos. I know
8 approximately where the house was. I know Djuro, but I don't remember
9 these people.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I had in mind to tender one more
11 document. It is related to the men that were exchanged on this.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: So let's have --
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: In this situation, I really don't feel I should do
14 that maybe. But if the witness can only confirm if some of the persons
15 were exchanged together with him, I don't need to tender this document
16 into evidence.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Why don't you just ask him by narrating the
18 names, if he can remember them? Can we have this one marked for
19 identification only, then.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: If I can only have the number --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: For identification.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked as D30/4 for
24 JUDGE MUMBA: And the Serbo-Croat one will be D30/4 ter. All
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I'm not certain if we need an ID
2 number for this document, because we received it from the Prosecution, and
3 I don't believe that they will have any objection regarding this document,
4 and particularly since I know that this document will be used again by
5 Mr. Lukic in his cross-examination.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The problem is that the questions you put to
7 the witness regarding the contents of these documents, he doesn't know any
8 of these people.
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Okay. Then I don't want to insist on this. Okay.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, when were you exchanged? Or rather, when
11 you were exchanged, were Djuro Prgomet, Prgomet Marko, and Ivo Cvitkusic
12 with you? Do you know these three people, and were they with you when you
13 were exchanged, and were they exchanged with you?
14 A. As far as I can remember, we who were exchanged, we set off on the
15 4th, but we were in fact exchanged on the 5th, between 12.00 and 1.00, and
16 I saw a list here when I was here the last time. There were about 40-odd
17 of us who were on the bus. And I think that the persons that you
18 mentioned, I don't remember whether they were with me on the bus, because
19 there were five buses. And let me just mention in this regard that when
20 we were exchanged, when we were brought to the line of exchange, when we
21 came there from the direction of Serbia, my bus was the first, and there
22 was a roll-call. On the other side, from the Croatian side, a bus came
23 in. I don't know how many people were there. I only know that our names
24 were read out on our side. I suppose that the same thing happened for the
25 first bus there, to verify who was there, and the other buses that had
1 come in, they just got off and moved onto another bus on the other side,
2 and their names were not called out. I don't have any doubts about the
3 fact that these people were exchanged, but I really don't remember that
4 they were with me on the bus.
5 Q. Could you please confirm for me that these people were related to
6 Mr. Zaric?
7 A. The persons by the name of Prgomet were.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues]
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. We have three minutes to go before
10 the break, because we are expecting to start the other witness at 1600
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Do you perhaps think, Your Honours,
13 that it would be wise for me to start my cross-examination right now? As
14 far as I'm concerned, I can do it, but I don't know --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can start.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir, Witness A. I will not
18 repeat the same things that my colleague already told you about the way in
19 which the examination will go on. I am Novak Lukic and I am the Defence
20 counsel for Mr. Tadic, and I will be conducting this cross-examination on
21 his behalf. I will try to ask questions in such a way that they are very
22 short and clear, to elicit very precise answers. If you have the
23 information, then please answer with my question, preferably, with yes or
24 no. If you don't remember or if you don't know, please say so. In the
25 few minutes that we have, I will make a brief introduction through my
2 You first spoke with the investigators from the OTP in 1994.
3 That's what you said to my colleague Mr. Lazarevic; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. After that, you spoke with the Prosecutors in 2001, in June. Do
6 you remember that? This conversation took place in Odzak, as far as the
7 Prosecutors informed us. Do you remember that conversation?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You also spoke with the Prosecutors in June this year. Do you
10 remember how long this interview took in June this year, when you spoke to
11 the representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor?
12 A. I don't remember how long it took.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have our break, and we'll continue with
14 Witness A tomorrow at 1415 hours. We shall continue our proceedings at
15 1600 hours with the other witness.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. Before we proceed, yesterday I had
21 indicated to the legal officer that the Prosecution witnesses, the Bobics,
22 could be released, because it won't be possible to hear them this week.
23 MR. WEINER: We're going to e-mail our counterparts back at the
24 office and notify them to release them immediately.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
1 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
2 WITNESS: HASAN SUBASIC [Resumed]
3 [Witness testifies via videolink]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you may proceed.
6 MR. WEINER: We're having a problem with the video.
7 All right. Thank you.
8 Examined by Mr. Weiner: [Continued]
9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Subasic.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Yesterday we talked about a couple of matters. We talked about
12 several matters, and I would just like to clarify two before we move on.
13 Yesterday we discussed visits to the primary school by
14 Miroslav Tadic to read the persons' names who were to be exchanged. And I
15 asked you if you were certain as to the number of visits, and you
16 indicated no, you didn't know the number. Do you recall that, sir?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. My question is: Although you don't know the exact number, are we
19 speaking of one visit, two visits, or several visits that Miroslav Tadic
20 made to the school?
21 A. Several visits.
22 Q. Do you recall whether Miroslav Tadic visited the primary school in
23 June of 1992?
24 A. I don't recall.
25 Q. If I would read this line to you, tell me if this refreshes your
1 recollection, on page 4 of the 1998 interview:
2 "Sometime during mid-June 1992, Miroslav Tadic came to the primary
3 school. He came into the gym where we were detained. Tadic came together
4 with some people from the Serbian Red Cross in Bosanski Samac."
5 Does that refresh your recollection at all, sir, as to whether or
6 not Miroslav Tadic visited in June of 1992?
7 A. If that's what I stated then, that he had come in June, then he
8 must have. A long time has passed since the moment when I gave that
9 statement. It's been four years.
10 Q. But you recall during the summer period he came several times?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, yesterday, sir, we also had some discussion about your going
13 back to the Territorial Defence building, also referred to as the TO, at
14 the end of the summer, sometime in late August. Now, that was your --
15 according to your second detention there.
16 When did you see Dr. Blagoje Simic, when you were detained that
17 second time at the TO or at the time of your first detention at the TO in
18 April? When did you see Dr. Blagoje Simic at the TO?
19 A. On the second occasion.
20 Q. And where did you see him in the TO facility, in what part of the
22 A. In the courtyard of the TO building.
23 Q. And how long was he there?
24 A. Not long. Perhaps some five to ten minutes.
25 Q. Okay. Now, in November of 1992, while you were being held at the
1 TO, did something happen? Were you transferred?
2 A. Yes. In late November of 1992, we were transferred to the
3 Batkovici camp, near Bijeljina.
4 Q. And when you say "we," about how many -- first, when you say "we,"
5 do you mean other prisoners?
6 A. All of the prisoners from Samac were transferred to the camp in
8 Q. So at that point, you had been in various camps in Samac from May
9 of 1992 through November of that same year?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And while you were at those prison camps in Bosanski Samac, were
12 you able to bathe or take a shower?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Were you able to wash your clothes?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Were you given sufficient bandages or medical supplies?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Let's continue with the conditions at those camps. Let's talk
19 about the food that you were given. How many meals did you receive each
20 day at those various camps in Bosanski Samac?
21 A. Once a day.
22 Q. And could you tell the Court here what that meal consisted of?
23 A. They would divide one loaf of bread among 16 to 18 people. In the
24 beginning, we would receive some marmalade to put on the bread and some
25 tea, and later on they would give us lard to spread on the bread.
1 Q. Now, sir, what is lard?
2 A. Well, it comes from pig fat.
3 Q. Now, are Muslims allowed to eat lard or this product from pig fat?
4 A. No, they're not.
5 Q. Did the prisoners want to eat the lard?
6 A. They naturally did not want to.
7 Q. Did the guards ever say anything to the prisoners when they
8 received lard for their bread?
9 A. Yes. They would laugh. They would use derogatory terms and say
10 things like, "Well, look at them. They can eat it now," and say things
11 along those lines.
12 Q. What derogatory things did they say to the Muslims in relation to
13 them receiving lard with their meal?
14 A. They would say, "Look at balijas eating pork," and things like
16 Q. Now, these portions that you received of bread and tea, was that
17 sufficient, enough of a meal for you or the other men?
18 A. As I told you before, they would divide one loaf of bread between
19 16 to 18 people.
20 Q. And my question: Was that a sufficient amount of food for you,
21 that one slice of bread or however much bread you had? Was that a
22 sufficient amount of bread for you?
23 A. Well, how could it have been sufficient?
24 Q. Well, with that one meal a day, were you or the other prisoners
1 A. We were, all the time.
2 Q. Did you feel weak from the lack of food?
3 A. Yes, we did.
4 Q. Did you lose any weight? Did you or any -- start off with you
5 yourself. Did you lose any weight?
6 A. Yes, I did, about 25 kilogrammes.
7 Q. How do you know that you lost 25 kilogrammes?
8 A. When we came to the Batkovici camp, then in December the Red Cross
9 came and registered us, and then they weighed us, gave us some clothing,
10 and this is how I learned how much I weighed.
11 Q. Were you the only prisoner who lost weight or did any of the other
12 prisoners lose a significant amount of weight?
13 A. Everybody had lost weight.
14 Q. And before we leave this topic of food at the camps in Bosanski
15 Samac, who was responsible for bringing the food to the various prison
16 camps in Bosanski Samac?
17 A. I don't know the name of that person, but I know that he was the
18 brother of Miroslav Tadic.
19 Q. Now, you went to Batkovici. At Batkovici, were the conditions
20 better? Worse? The same? How were the conditions at that camp?
21 A. The conditions were better than in Samac, but they were far from
23 Q. Well, how many meals were you given a day in Batkovici?
24 A. In the beginning, we would receive three meals, and later on, two.
25 Q. Were there regular beatings at Batkovici?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were there beatings at Batkovici?
3 A. Sometimes.
4 Q. Were these severe beatings?
5 A. Not particularly.
6 Q. Were prisoners able to bathe at Batkovici?
7 A. They were.
8 Q. Do you know why the conditions at Batkovici were better than those
9 at Bosanski Samac?
10 A. Perhaps the camp was registered by the Red Cross.
11 Q. Well, let's discuss this matter: Do you know whether the local
12 community was involved in the operation of the camp at Batkovici?
13 A. Yes. All of the guards watching us there were from the Batkovici
14 local commune.
15 Q. Now, did you get a chance to speak with some of those guards from
16 the local commune at Batkovici?
17 A. Many times.
18 Q. And did they tell you the role that the local community played at
20 A. They said that on one occasion they put up barricades. It was at
21 the time when the camp had already been opened. They said that they did
22 not want to bring a bad name to their village.
23 Q. And did they tell you what the result was of their protest of
24 barricades against having an infamous camp in Batkovici?
25 A. The result was that they were employed as guards. They also
1 invited the Red Cross over, the camp was registered, and that was it.
2 Q. Now, having local persons serve as guards, were there any severe
3 beatings by the guards as those that you had at the TO or the primary
5 A. No.
6 Q. And did these local guards allow the paramilitaries to enter and
7 beat and torture the prisoners?
8 A. They did not.
9 Q. Now, you indicated that while at Batkovici, the Red Cross, the
10 International Red Cross -- or the camp was registered with the
11 International Red Cross. Did the Red Cross ever visit -- and I mean the
12 International Red Cross -- ever visit the prisoners, including yourself,
13 while at Batkovici?
14 A. Yes, it did, approximately every other week or once a month.
15 Q. When was the first time that you saw or met with the International
16 Red Cross at Batkovici?
17 A. I think it was in early December of 1992.
18 Q. And what happened when you met them at that time?
19 A. We were all registered. We were given new clothing, we were
20 weighed, we were sprayed against fleas, we were given some food, canned
21 food, and I think we also got some cigarettes.
22 Q. Now, as a result of being registered with the Red Cross and their
23 visits, were you able to send and receive mail?
24 A. Yes. We were able to send mail through the Red Cross.
25 Q. And while you were detained at Batkovici, did you ever send or
1 receive mail? Did you ever send or receive mail to members of your
3 A. Yes, I did, on a number of occasions. I both sent mail and
4 received it.
5 Q. Now, did you have any conversation -- did you or the other
6 prisoners have any conversation with members of the Red Cross concerning
7 the prison camps in Bosanski Samac?
8 A. Yes, we did. We talked to them on several occasions, and we told
9 them about the camp in Zasavica, near Samac. We asked them to go and
10 register that camp in Zasavica.
11 Q. And do you know if anything happened as a result of your
12 conversations with the Red Cross?
13 A. I don't know exactly.
14 Q. Did you later learn that the Red Cross did check on the camp in
15 Zasavica? Did you ever learn whether they did that?
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour. [Interpretation] The previous
18 question: Do you know if anything happened as a result of your
19 conversations? The witness said, on line -- on page 37, line 25, the
20 witness replied that he didn't know, and now the Prosecutor repeated the
21 question, even though the witness had already answered it.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
23 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I was just trying to refresh the
24 witness's recollection. I can read a sentence from his -- from the
25 Prosecutor's notes on pages 4 and 5, where he indicates that they had
1 later learned that the Red Cross had inquired and had put pressures on the
2 authorities to check on the camp.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: What statement is that?
4 MR. WEINER: That is the most recent -- the most recent notes or
5 the most recent interview with the witness of last week.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have nothing against this being
8 pointed out to the witness, like we did yesterday, but I object to these
9 questions which already contain the answer and therefore are leading
10 questions. This previous question, in view of the fact that we had
11 already had the answer, in which the witness said he didn't know, is just
12 not clear to me. There is no need to put these types of questions. This
13 is not a statement of the witness; these are Prosecutor's notes, and I
14 think the Prosecutor should point that out, that he's quoting from the
15 Prosecutor's notes, not from the statement of the witness.
16 MR. WEINER: I just did that. I said these are the notes from the
17 interview of last week. All I want to do is see if I can refresh his
18 recollection. It's not a major point. If you'd like me to move on, I'll
19 move on, but you can use any sort of document, ranging from a piece of
20 paper to, in law school they teach you, a banana to refresh a witness's
21 recollection. Any type of document --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, Mr. Weiner. Please move on.
23 MR. WEINER:
24 Q. How many times did you visit with the Red Cross while at
25 Batkovici? An exact number isn't required. Just a few? Several? Many?
2 A. In the Batkovici camp, I spent some 22 months. The Red Cross came
3 twice a week, sometimes once a month, so you can count how many times it
4 was: Over 20 times.
5 Q. All right. Now, while you were at Batkovici, were you required to
6 perform any type of labour?
7 A. Yes. We worked every day, various tasks.
8 Q. And when you said you worked every day, did you work within the
9 prison camp at Batkovici or outside of it?
10 A. Outside of the camp.
11 Q. What type of jobs did you have to perform outside of the camp?
12 A. Digging trenches, loading, unloading. We worked in the Zitopromet
13 company. On one occasion, they hired us out to work in the Bijeljina
14 prison -- in fact, to work for the Bijeljina prison, a prison in a mill.
15 Then we strung out the high-tension lines from Ugljevik, from the Ugljevik
16 electrical plant, coal-fired electrical plant, power plant, to another
17 place, and then we also worked on a farm. We also worked in the fields in
19 Q. Now, you said -- you indicated that you were hired out. By being
20 hired out, were you and the other prisoners paid for this work?
21 A. No, we were not paid. Those people who hired us out were paid.
22 Q. Now, you said you dug trenches. Where did you dig trenches?
23 A. In Teocak.
24 Q. And where was that in relation to the battle lines?
25 A. I couldn't tell you exactly.
1 Q. Well, in the area that you dug trenches, were there any troops?
2 A. Yes. It was the front line.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. In fact, it's not a classical
5 form of objection, but I just wonder where we are going with this line of
7 Batkovici camp doesn't have any relevance to the Samac case.
8 People who are running Batkovici camp are by any -- there's not any
9 relation with the defendants in this case. So I would kindly ask to hear
10 the explanation from the Prosecution; otherwise, my objection is based on
11 the irrelevance with our particular case. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner?
13 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I just wanted to cover this issue
14 briefly and have the witness discuss on one occasion, when the prisoners
15 were taken out, 16 to 17 prisoners were in fact killed during an attack,
16 and this witness had to identify those prisoners to see which ones came
17 from Bosanski Samac. He identified the bodies.
18 Now, the reason that I'm trying to introduce this is for three
19 reasons: One, we have to prove, under Article 5, that the crimes
20 committed were widespread and systematic. Having the prisoners dig, not
21 only in Bosanski Samac, outside of Bosanski Samac, having them dig
22 trenches from various camps, proves the widespread and systematic nature
23 of the use of prisoners and civilians for trench-digging in very dangerous
25 Number two, we've had some testimony as to the proof of
1 dangerousness of trench digging, how people were killed, how people were
3 And number three, just the dangerousness that they did not have
4 any barriers or any protections for these people and bullets were flying
5 over their heads. This is further proof or circumstantial proof of the
6 dangerous of trench digging. That's why it's considered inhumane conduct
7 in violation of the various conventions.
8 And finally, number three, it's evidence of a consistent pattern
9 of conduct under Rule 93. The use of forced labour in dangerous
10 conditions was almost a general policy or a modus operandi of the various
11 Serb authorities within the area surrounding Bosanski Samac. And pursuant
12 to the Kvocka decision, what I'd like to do is show it as a consistent
13 pattern of conduct that was perpetrated by the authorities in that area
14 upon those prisoners and villagers, and I'd argue, for those three
15 reasons, this evidence is admissible, and I only want to spend a few
16 minutes on the issue anyway. But I'd argue that it is, in fact,
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, you should go to those points, salient
19 points, as briefly as possible.
20 MR. WEINER:
21 Q. Sir, you indicated that -- you indicated that you were on the
22 front lines digging those trenches. Do you recall a situation while you
23 were at Batkovici where a number of people were killed or injured in the
24 process of digging trenches along those front lines? Could you tell the
1 A. In the period between 1993 and 1994, 16 to 17 people were killed.
2 I remember that it was wintertime and that people were taken at dawn to
3 dig trenches. It was still dark at that time, and they were killed en
4 route. I know that because I went there to identify a lad from Bosanski
5 Samac, so I saw the dead people.
6 Q. And how were they killed, sir?
7 A. They were on a truck, shot in a truck, and I think that on that
8 occasion our units carried out an incursion into the rear. I mean, the BH
9 army units carried out an incursion into the rear of the Serbian army, and
10 they thought that these were soldiers going out to relieve another unit,
11 so they killed them by mistake.
12 Q. All right. Now, let us move on.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I was wondering, because the witness said it
14 was between 1993 and 1994, and yet the indictment only goes up to 1993,
16 MR. WEINER: Yes. For the same issue, under the Kvocka decision
17 where they had matters which were not listed in the indictment, and they
18 used it as circumstantial proof, once again, not as direct proof against
19 the defendants but as circumstantial proof to establish certain matters
20 within the indictment. Thank you.
21 Q. Now, were you brought, sir -- while you were at Batkovici, were
22 you brought to -- were you brought somewhere for some sort of trial?
23 A. Yes. I was taken to the Bijeljina court.
24 Q. All right. What I'm going to do is read a statement from your
25 1998 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor. We'll move things along
1 on the trial, and I'll ask you a few questions concerning the attorneys
2 and the trial itself after that. But to move things along, let me just
3 read the statement and ask you whether or not this is what occurred:
4 "In the summer of 1993, I was brought to Bijeljina for a trial at
5 the military court. In Bijeljina, I had to give a statement to an
6 investigative judge. I was asked about weapons, whether I had killed
7 somebody, and if I was or had ever been a member of the SDA. After
8 answering these questions, I was taken back to Batkovici. A few days
9 later, some military policemen came with my statement. That statement was
10 totally different from what I had given them. The facts had been twisted
11 and changed. After a few days, I was taken back to Bijeljina for
12 sentencing. I had a lawyer, but in my opinion, this lawyer was even worse
13 than the judge. He did not do anything to help me. I was sentenced to 12
14 years. After sentencing, I was again taken back to Batkovici."
15 Sir, is that a fair and accurate statement as concerns what
16 happened to you in Bijeljina in the summer of 1993?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. I have a few questions concerning your legal representation or the
19 lack thereof. Were you able to meet with your lawyer prior to
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did your lawyer ever advise you as to the legal issues involved?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did he ever speak to you about the nature of the charges?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did he ever discuss with you any possible defences or potential
3 A. No, he did not.
4 Q. Did your lawyer ever consult with you during questioning?
5 A. No, he did not.
6 Q. What about after questioning?
7 A. Nothing. He was there just for the appearance's sake.
8 Q. Let's discuss the meeting you had with the judge. When you were
9 interviewed by this investigative judge, was this meeting, or however you
10 want to describe it, held in a courtroom?
11 A. It was a room.
12 Q. When you say "a room," do you mean an office or just an empty
13 room? What do you mean?
14 A. It was some kind of an office.
15 Q. Were any witnesses called to testify against you?
16 A. As far as I know, no.
17 Q. Did you call any witnesses to testify on your behalf?
18 A. No, I did not.
19 Q. Well, if there were no witnesses, was a trial held?
20 A. I know that I was sentenced to 12 years in prison, but as to how
21 the trial was carried out, and on what basis, I really don't know.
22 Q. After you were sentenced, you were returned to Batkovici?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when did you leave Batkovici? What month and year?
25 A. On the 9th of June, 1994.
1 Q. While you were at Batkovici, from November 1992 to June 9th, 1994,
2 did you ever see any of the defendants at that prison camp?
3 A. Yes, I did see Miroslav Tadic on several occasions.
4 Q. Do you recall when you first saw Miroslav Tadic at Batkovici?
5 A. In January 1993.
6 Q. Now, on these several times that Miroslav Tadic visited Batkovici,
7 what did he do?
8 A. He came in with the lists of people for the exchange.
9 Q. And when he came there with those lists of persons or prisoners to
10 be exchanged, who read out those names?
11 A. Sometimes he would read them and sometimes the guards did, but in
12 most cases he himself read them out.
13 Q. When he read them, did he make any racial slurs to you, towards
14 you, at Batkovici?
15 A. I don't remember him saying anything in Batkovici.
16 Q. Where was it that he called the prisoners balijas and Ustasha?
17 A. It was in the elementary school in Bosanski Samac.
18 Q. All right. Let us move to the process of announcing or calling
19 out the names. If a person's name was called, what would happen to that
20 person? Would they leave immediately? Did they leave the next day? Did
21 he go with Miroslav Tadic? What would happen?
22 A. In most cases, they would go with him to the buses and then they
23 would go to Samac, spend a night there, and then they would be exchanged.
24 Q. Now, you previously testified that during the summer of 1992, when
25 a person's name was called out to be exchanged, he received a final
1 beating from the guards. At Batkovici, did anything happen to the
2 prisoners after their name was called out for an exchange?
3 A. Not in Batkovici. There was no abuse there. When the names were
4 read out, the names of the people to be exchanged, they were not
5 maltreated in Batkovici. But I heard that when they were taken to
6 Bosanski Samac to spend a night there, that they were maltreated there.
7 Q. All right. Let's return to the process of announcing the names.
8 Were there ever occasions when a person's name was called but that the
9 person was not present, they were out doing forced labour or they were
10 somewhere else?
11 A. On several occasions, people were out on forced labour. They
12 simply were not there when Tadic came in with the lists of people to be
13 exchanged. And then other people would be put on those lists.
14 Q. Please tell us: What would happen prior to other people's names
15 being placed on the list to replace those that were not there when the
16 names were called out?
17 A. Tadic came into the camp. He read out the names. If somebody was
18 absent -- we would always gather around him. Some people who had money
19 would give him money, and then he would go out and came back in with the
20 amended list and read out their names as people to be exchanged.
21 Q. So when a person -- so if a person was not present, replacements
22 would be added. Now, you said people would give Tadic money to become
23 those replacements. Did you ever witness any prisoner giving the
24 defendant Miroslav Tadic any money?
25 A. Yes, on several occasions.
1 Q. And on those several occasions where prisoners bribed Miroslav
2 Tadic, were their names added to the exchange list?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And were those people released and exchanged that same day or on
5 the following day?
6 A. I think on the same day, that they went on the same day.
7 Q. Do you know the names or can you recall the names of prisoners
8 that bribed Miroslav Tadic to have their names placed on the exchange
10 A. On one occasion I was there when Sabah Seric paid Miroslav Tadic
11 to be exchanged, and he went. I saw some other people too, but I don't
12 recall their names. Most of them were Catholics from the Samac
14 Q. Did Sabah Seric bribe Miroslav Tadic just for himself, or for
15 others to be exchanged also?
16 A. He tried to bribe him for another man too, but Tadic didn't agree;
17 he refused.
18 Q. Did he accept the money first and then refuse, or did he refuse
19 prior to accepting the money?
20 A. I don't remember how it was exactly. I don't think that he
21 accepted money from this other man.
22 Q. Now, prior to Miroslav Tadic's visits to Batkovici, was there any
23 discussion among the prisoners concerning bribing Miroslav Tadic to get
24 your name placed on the exchange list?
25 A. Yes, there was talk. Those who had money knew that they could
1 give the money to Miroslav Tadic to get out.
2 Q. And you were in Batkovici during 1993 and 1994. During what years
3 did this occur? And when I say "this occur," the bribes to Miroslav
5 A. In 1993.
6 Q. Did you ever offer Miroslav Tadic a bribe?
7 A. I didn't, because I didn't have any money.
8 Q. And you remained in prison until June 1994?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And just a few other questions relating to Miroslav Tadic. When
11 you saw him at Batkovici, had his appearance changed, his facial
13 A. Yes. He had a long beard. I don't remember exactly, but I do
14 know that he had a very big beard. I don't remember any other changes.
15 Q. Now, speaking of exchanges, were any members -- just first yes or
16 no: Were any members of your family exchanged?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Let's begin with your wife and daughter. When were they
20 A. In October 1992.
21 Q. And where were they exchanged to?
22 A. I think in Dragalic, but I'm not sure.
23 Q. And do you know whether any of the defendants were present at that
25 A. My wife told me that Miroslav Tadic was present there.
1 Q. Your mother, was she exchanged out of Bosanski Samac?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know when she was exchanged from Bosanski Samac?
4 A. I think it was in June or July 1993.
5 Q. And do you know -- where did she go, if you know?
6 A. I think the exchange took place in the same place, but I'm not
8 Q. Dragalic. Do you know whether any of the defendants were present
9 at your mother's exchange in June or July of 1993?
10 A. My mother told me that Miroslav Tadic had been there.
11 Q. At the beginning of your testimony, you mentioned your
12 grandparents living in Bosanski Samac. Were either of your grandparents
14 A. No.
15 Q. What happened to your grandmother?
16 A. My grandmother died in December 1993, and my grandfather fled from
17 Samac in 1994, in September.
18 Q. Could you tell us why your grandfather fled Bosanski Samac in
20 A. When he came there, he told us that some Serbs had come and had
21 told him that he had to leave the house, to move out, that they needed the
22 house, and he had no other choice but to flee Samac.
23 Q. How long had your grandfather lived in that house that he was told
24 that he had to vacate?
25 A. Perhaps 50 years.
1 Q. Did this happen just to your grandfather in September, or was
2 anyone else told that they had to vacate their homes at that time?
3 A. Yes. My neighbours from across, a family -- there was a Catholic
4 family -- in fact, just the man was Catholic. They also had to leave
5 their house.
6 Q. Was this just one neighbour or several neighbours?
7 A. Three neighbours, three persons.
8 Q. And of what ethnic group were these three persons? Were they all
9 Catholic Croatians or were they of various ethnic backgrounds?
10 A. The husband and wife were Catholic, and the third person was a
12 Q. And persons of what ethnic group told them that they had to vacate
13 their homes?
14 A. Serbs.
15 Q. Did your grandfather and those neighbours do anything as a result
16 of being told that they had to vacate their homes?
17 A. No. They did nothing. They simply fled Samac.
18 Q. And during what month did they flee Samac?
19 A. In September.
20 Q. Now, when were you exchanged? You said in June of 1994?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How many people were exchanged with you?
23 A. I think there were 12 of us prisoners and some 150 civilians.
24 Q. Where were you exchanged?
25 A. I was exchanged in Satorovici. That's a village near Brcko.
1 Q. And that's within the state of Bosnia?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And where did you go after you were exchanged?
4 A. To Slavonia, where my wife and children were.
5 Q. Now, at the time of your exchange, what physical injuries were you
7 A. I had three broken ribs, my teeth were knocked out, I had
8 difficulties in eating and with sleeping, I was quite tense.
9 Q. How long did the problem that you had with eating last?
10 A. About three months.
11 Q. Did any of these physical problems exist prior to your
12 imprisonment in April of 1992?
13 A. No.
14 Q. What, if any, emotional problems did you have upon being exchanged
15 in June of 1994? You indicated that you had some problems sleeping. What
16 other emotional problems did you suffer?
17 A. I'm quite tense, and I can't spend a lot of time in one place in a
18 closed environment.
19 Q. Any other emotional problems that you've suffered?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Prior to being imprisoned in 1992, did you suffer these same
23 A. No, I did not, never.
24 Q. At the beginning of your testimony, you mentioned that your family
25 had three homes: Your uncle's home, your mother's home, which was on the
1 same place of land or in a little complex, and else where you had an
2 apartment. What happened to these three homes?
3 A. All of that was confiscated. We have nothing any more.
4 Q. Is anyone living in those three homes?
5 A. Somebody lives in my uncle's house. As for the rest, I don't
7 Q. Did your uncle ever give anyone permission to move into his home?
8 A. No, never.
9 Q. Was rent ever paid to your uncle for living -- for the right to
10 live in his home?
11 A. No, never.
12 Q. Has your uncle made any attempt to get his property back?
13 A. I think he did.
14 Q. Has he retained counsel to try and get his property back?
15 A. I think he did. Yes, in fact he did.
16 Q. And when did he retain counsel to try and get his property back?
17 A. I think he went there two years ago, and he paid some money -- I
18 don't know how much -- to the attorney, in order for him to fix the papers
19 for the house.
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the name of the
22 MR. WEINER:
23 Q. For the record, what's the name of the attorney, sir?
24 A. Boro Pisarevic.
25 Q. Now, in the past two years since he's retained counsel, has he
1 received his property back?
2 A. Nothing has happened yet.
3 Q. And how many years had that piece of property been in your uncle's
5 A. I couldn't tell you exactly, but I think for quite a long time.
6 Q. Now, have you taken any action or has your mother taken any action
7 to get your homes back?
8 A. No, we have not.
9 Q. And why is that?
10 A. I don't understand. Why would I have to pay to somebody for
11 something that has been confiscated and stolen from me?
12 Q. Now, about three to four months after you were exchanged, did you
13 do something?
14 A. What do you mean?
15 Q. Did you join a military group?
16 A. Yes, I did. I was a member of the HVO.
17 Q. And where did you serve in the HVO army?
18 A. Do you mean the place or the armed formation?
19 Q. Both. In what capacity did you serve and where?
20 A. I was in Domaljevac, and I was in reconnaissance sabotage unit.
21 Q. And how long did you serve in the HVO army?
22 A. Approximately one year.
23 Q. Now, sir, you previously indicated that your mother's family had
24 lived in Bosanski Samac for generations. In April, prior to the war, did
25 you have any intention of leaving the town of Bosanski Samac?
1 A. No, I did not.
2 Q. Did your relatives have any intention or want to leave the town of
3 Bosanski Samac?
4 A. No, they did not, as far as I know.
5 Q. Why did you and everyone else leave, all the members of your
6 family? Why?
7 A. We didn't leave; we were expelled from Bosanski Samac.
8 Q. Sir, if not for the beatings, the imprisonment, and the
9 persecution, would you have left Bosanski Samac?
10 A. Probably not.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. WEINER: No further questions.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination. Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
14 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. Just a moment. I have to
15 organise my papers.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Subasic. My name is
18 Pantelic, and I am the attorney of Blagoje Simic. Now that you have
19 mentioned that you were a member of the HVO unit in the region of
20 Domaljevac, these operations that you were involved in were probably in
21 the front that was in Grebnice region; is that right?
22 A. [No interpretation].
23 Q. You said yes, but the interpreters did not translate that.
24 A. Yes, I said "yes." The interpreter probably didn't hear.
25 Q. Can you hear the interpreter now? Let's make a test. Is
1 everything functioning well? [In English] Can you hear the translator?
2 Can you hear the interpreter?
3 A. I can hear and understand Mr. Pantelic well, or perhaps I should
4 be -- I should speak in English so that we can understand each other
6 Q. [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Subasic. Your answer was not
7 recorded, so I thought there was a problem with interpretation. But let's
9 Can you tell me what was the name of this HVO unit that you were a
10 member of.
11 A. It was the 104th Bosanski Samac Brigade.
12 Q. And who was the commander of this 104th HVO Brigade?
13 A. I don't remember the name. It's been a long time.
14 Q. What rank did you hold in the 104th HVO Brigade?
15 A. I had no rank.
16 Q. [No interpretation].
17 THE INTERPRETER: Just a minute. The registrar needs to say
19 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Pantelic, since you are speaking the same
20 language as the witness, you started your question before the witness was
21 finished answering. Pause a little bit.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think, Mr. Pantelic, you should speak up.
23 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Madam Registrar, I will take care about
24 the ...
25 Q. [Interpretation] Can you hear me now?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Mr. Subasic, do you have any information regarding the fact that
3 according to the Dayton Peace Accords, all citizens of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina, regardless of their ethnicity, have a guaranteed right to
5 return of their property?
6 A. Yes, I am aware of that. And are you aware of how much this
7 return of the property can cost when you have to pay the attorney? You
8 know that better than I do, because you are in the field in Bosnia, so you
9 should be well aware of this.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Subasic, you are there to answer questions from
11 counsel and you're not supposed to ask him any questions. So just answer
12 questions put to you by counsel. We shall move much faster.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
14 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Subasic, I'm asking you now whether you or your mother have
16 initiated the procedure for return of your property, just like your uncle
17 did, by engaging a local attorney.
18 A. No, we have not done so.
19 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I will have a couple of questions with
20 regard to the witness's -- among these witnesses certain number are
21 protected, so I would kindly ask to go into private session because of the
22 protective measures.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: What do you mean? The questions involve witnesses
24 who are protected?
25 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. All right.
2 Can we go into private session, then?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in private session.
4 [Private session]
12 Page 11041 redacted – private session
21 [Open session]
22 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. So, Mr. Subasic, you are telling us that you and these people that
24 we have mentioned simply discussed private matters and never, ever said a
25 word about their testimonies here and what they testified about here. Is
1 that what you're claiming?
2 A. I don't think that I said I discussed anything with these people.
3 I simply said that I saw these people, and that doesn't necessarily mean
4 that I discussed anything with them.
5 Q. And before these people went to testify here, did you, before
6 that, talk and reminisce about the events that took place in Samac ten
7 years ago?
8 A. No, we did not. I don't know whether you are aware of the reason
9 why I didn't go to The Hague. I had an accident at work. I broke both of
10 my arms, I had a back injury, and was therefore unable to travel.
11 Q. And when was the last time you talked to Esad Dagovic?
12 A. Perhaps a year ago, maybe more.
13 Q. He was in the HVO brigade with you after he was exchanged, wasn't
15 A. I don't know. I haven't seen Esad Dagovic since 1992.
16 Q. And what other people from Samac served in that HVO brigade with
18 A. I wouldn't like to mention any names. I don't think that's
20 Q. Tell me, please: When you talked to Esad Dagovic, did you discuss
21 the statements that you had given to the Prosecution?
22 A. No, we did not talk about that. We had not seen each other for a
23 long time and did not even consider discussing these matters. We talked
24 about private affairs, about his marriage and the fact that he was
25 supposed to come for his vacation here.
1 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, is it appropriate time for a break
2 now? Because I'm going to another line of questioning. Or ...
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. We shall take our break now for 20
4 minutes and continue the proceedings at 1750 hours.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. Cross-examination continuing.
8 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Subasic, please tell me: This apartment that
10 you lived in in Samac, your mother helped you obtain that apartment; is
11 that correct?
12 A. I didn't get that apartment. That was an apartment owned by my
13 mother, and I merely lived there.
14 Q. She got that apartment from her company; is that correct?
15 A. No.
16 Q. How did she get that apartment, then?
17 A. She got it from the Veterans' Association.
18 Q. But how? Why did she get it from the Veterans' Association? She
19 was not a veteran fighter, was she?
20 A. No. Her father was, and she got it as a child of a veteran.
21 Q. So she had a contract entitling her to use the apartment; is that
23 A. I don't know exactly how it was. We moved into that apartment in
24 December 1991, and the war broke out in Samac in 1992, in April. So we
25 were not able by that time to get all the papers in order for the
2 Q. When you say "we," who do you refer to?
3 A. I mean myself and my mother.
4 Q. According to some information from Samac, you and your mother
5 moved into that apartment forcibly. Is that true?
6 A. In a way, yes.
7 Q. Well, you probably know that you cannot seek the return of the
8 property if there is no legal owner of the property and if there is no
9 proof of ownership. You are aware of that?
10 A. Yes, I am aware of that, and I already said that I didn't seek
11 anything; I didn't apply for it.
12 Q. That was why -- that was because there was no legal basis for the
13 use of the apartment?
14 A. Yes, there was legal basis for the use, but I was unable to get
15 all the papers in order, and I didn't want to do anything in that
16 respect. But I'm sure that once I am willing to do so, I will be able to
17 fix everything.
18 Q. You worked in the Mebos company. That's a company that
19 manufactured electrical appliances, water heaters and things like that; is
20 that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You worked in the production line in that company; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. During the search of your apartment, some wires were found; is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What kind of wires were they?
4 A. Just ordinary wires used for fitting the water heaters.
5 Q. You had brought these from the factory; is that correct?
6 A. No. I had bought them.
7 Q. So you constructed water heaters in your apartment; is that
9 A. No.
10 Q. Why did you buy the wires?
11 A. I fixed water heaters for other people in the apartment -- in
12 other people's apartments.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's mistake.
14 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You also fitted thermostats in water heaters; is that correct?
16 A. I don't remember. If it was necessary, I did so.
17 Q. When the inspector in the police asked you whether you had
18 constructed some kind of sabotage, booby traps, and other types of
19 explosive devices because the wires that had been found in your apartment,
20 what did you say to Milos Savic in the police station?
21 MR. WEINER: I object.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
23 MR. WEINER: I have no copy of any statement that this witness
24 made Milos Savic, and he just -- and counsel just asked a question in
25 relation to what Milos Savic asked this witness. If they have a copy of
1 these statements, I would ask that it be provided to us immediately. That
2 never came out on direct, that question there, so if they have a copy of
3 the statement, I'd ask that it be provided to us.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
5 MR. PANTELIC: No statement, Your Honour. Obviously, if we would
6 be in possession of such a document, we would deliver that immediately to
7 the Prosecution. It's simply an information from the field about the
8 background of certain events around this witness, so I'm going to explore
9 this area to check what is actually true.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
11 MR. WEINER: He said -- he made an indication "when the inspector
12 asked you," and once again, if they have any proof or indication, other
13 than -- if all he has is some information he's heard, then he should ask
14 it in a different manner. He's asking it as if it did in fact happen. He
15 can ask if they did ask you that.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's the way that the question has been
17 phrased that is the problem.
18 Yes, Mr. Pantelic. You've understood what Mr. Weiner is saying.
19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, yes. I will rephrase the question.
20 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Subasic, you will agree with the claim
21 that there were grounds for suspicion on the part of the police that you
22 were engaged in subversive activities and that is why you were arrested;
23 yes or no?
24 A. I wouldn't agree with this.
25 Q. But since you were a member of the sabotage unit in 104th Brigade
1 of the HVO, you were, in a way, an expert for subversive activities; is
2 that correct?
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner?
4 MR. WEINER: Objection. He was a member of that unit almost two
5 and a half or two and a quarter years after the search of his home.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: This is after his exchange?
7 MR. WEINER: Correct. Three months later he then joins the unit.
8 You can't base his activities two and a quarter years or 27 months earlier
9 based on what he did later.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
11 MR. PANTELIC: Well, Your Honour, I think there is a basis for
12 that, because if the person has technical or personal knowledge of certain
13 items, equipment, booby traps, he can use his personal knowledge while in
14 the combat operations. So, for example --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think you've understood. The objection is
16 that he joined this 104th Brigade after his release, three months after he
17 was exchanged, in 1994, and your question is based on his arrest in 1992,
18 isn't it?
19 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct. I want to make a link between
20 these two periods of time, and that's the basis of my question,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: So you first ask him whether he was engaged in such
23 activities in 1992.
24 MR. PANTELIC: Okay.
25 Q. [Interpretation] All right. Mr. Subasic, you performed certain
1 subversive activities for the SDA, the armed forces of the SDA in Samac,
2 in 1992; is that correct?
3 A. No. I was not a member of any party in Bosanski Samac.
4 Q. But you did have the requisite knowledge to make timed explosive
5 devices; is that correct?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you have the requisite knowledge to turn a water heater into
8 an explosive device?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Well, what kind of knowledge did you have that qualified you to be
11 in the sabotage unit of the 104th HVO Brigade in 1994? Did you make any
12 kind of sabotage devices there?
13 A. No.
14 MR. WEINER: I'd object, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, he was a member of it's either the
17 sabotage and reconnaissance or the reconnaissance and sabotage unit. No
18 one's even brought out what he did within that unit to even take it to
19 that next level. They're trying to leave an inference that because he was
20 in that unit, he was definitely in the sabotage side of it. If you'd like
21 to question him what he did in that unit, maybe it would be enlightening.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. I think there is a problem with
23 mixing the information and not directing the questions to the activities
24 of the witness at the relevant period.
25 MR. PANTELIC: Well, in any case, Your Honour, since it's a little
1 bit in war period, it's quite suspicious activity that someone has this
2 equipment and wires and the thermostat in his apartment. Probably for the
3 police members he was simply suspicious doing certain equipment, and then
4 they arrested him and tried to explain --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. No one --
6 MR. PANTELIC: That was my basis of the questions, so I just try
7 to explore this issue, nothing more.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: I think you have done that sufficiently.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm really sorry, but when you
10 say --
11 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. You wanted to say something?
13 A. When you said that the police found the thermostat and wire in my
14 apartment, I never mentioned that the police had found the thermostat,
15 They only found the wire. For me, it was so insignificant. Any of us
16 would have a piece of wire in their homes, perhaps several metres of
17 wire. You would use it to install the speakers or to change the wire in
18 the water heater, but thermostats were never mentioned.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: I think, Mr. Pantelic, you can move on.
20 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Yes, but in 1992, did they suspect you of making such explosive
22 devices? Did they accuse you of it? The police, did they do so?
23 A. Well, they accused each of us of something.
24 Q. Well, that was not my question. My question referred to you. Can
25 you tell us: What did the police accuse you of?
1 A. When they came to take me with them, they told me that I would
2 only have to make a statement, and then when I came there, they asked me
3 about the wire, and the other questions were how many Serbs I had killed,
4 how many women I had killed by slitting their throats, how many women I
5 had raped. So the wire was mentioned as an aside. In the whole course of
6 my imprisonment, nobody ever mentioned the wire at all.
7 Q. Yes, but a few days ago, when you answered the questions of the
8 Prosecutor, on the 8th and 9th of July, on page 2 of his notes, you said
9 the following.
10 [In English] "They seized some tools and wire at his apartment."
11 That's your apartment. "They accused him of using the wire to make
13 [Interpretation] That's what you said to the Prosecutor; is that
15 A. Yes, but I also stated in my statement what Savo Cancarevic had
16 told me and what he had asked me when I came to the SUP.
17 Q. On several occasions in your statements you spoke about the fact
18 that when you were imprisoned in Samac, detained in Samac, in various
19 locations, that there were frequent power cuts, blackouts. Do you confirm
21 A. I don't remember saying that.
22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, for the record, I would ask him to
23 state -- or to identify the places where he indicates that exists. I
24 don't recall that either in his statement.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?
1 MR. WEINER: Maybe I'm wrong, but ...
2 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. I'm asking you about when you were detained in Samac in the TO.
4 Do you have any personal knowledge of the fact that in that period, while
5 you were in Samac, that the electricity would go out frequently?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pantelic, but you had mentioned
8 that on several occasions the witness had said about frequent power cuts,
9 blackouts, while he was imprisoned in several locations in Bosanski Samac,
10 and Mr. Weiner asked for some reference to it. Maybe you could direct us
11 to where you were talking about that, or rather, where you were reading
13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. In fact, I'm checking with my
14 colleagues, maybe it was an error in my notes. But I'll try to find out
15 of his personal knowledge about the situation, and he answered that he is
16 not aware about that.
17 MR. WEINER: I have no problem with that, Your Honour. I just
18 don't want it to be considered a prior inconsistent statement, because it
19 doesn't exist here, or I haven't seen it.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: I think Mr. Pantelic has moved on, because he has
21 now asked the question directly to the witness.
22 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. It was not my intention to catch the witness,
23 you know, in this inconsistency, no, no, no. It was just a question with
24 regard to the general conditions in the town, nothing special.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, then. Please move on.
1 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, yes.
2 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Subasic, can you please tell me: Do you
3 have any personal knowledge of the fact that while you were in Samac
4 during the combat operations, was the power supply -- the water supply
5 also cut in the town? Do you have any knowledge of that?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of the fact that Samac was
8 shelled quite frequently at the time when you were detained there?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. How often -- and can you tell us where the shells fell?
11 A. I can't tell you where the shells landed.
12 Q. But you did hear the detonations and the explosions?
13 A. Well, of course. Samac is a small town, so one can hear the
15 Q. Please tell me: Since you mentioned to the Prosecutor that you
16 saw my client, Mr. Blagoje Simic, in the TO courtyard, you mentioned that
17 yesterday and today you gave some additional information, can you please
18 remember if it was in the beginning of August or in mid-August 1992 when
19 my client allegedly was seen in the courtyard of the TO building?
20 A. Well, I can't really tell you. I know that it was in the summer
21 of 1992, but I can't remember the exact month, because while we were
22 imprisoned there, we lost all sense of time.
23 Q. But at any rate, what you said to my colleague from the
24 Prosecution, we could say you said that it was in August; right?
25 A. Well, possibly. It was the only time, and it was for a very short
1 period of time, perhaps five or ten minutes, not longer than that.
2 Q. Where were you at the time when you allegedly saw him?
3 A. In the courtyard.
4 Q. Who was around you?
5 A. Other prisoners. I don't remember exactly.
6 Q. You don't remember any names?
7 A. I remember that Kemal Mehinovic was there, Ado Dzakic,
8 Ivan Dzakic. That's as much as I can remember now.
9 Q. Was Dr. Blagoje Simic alone when you saw him?
10 A. There was somebody else with him in a uniform, but I don't know
11 that person.
12 Q. Can you tell me: What was he wearing?
13 A. He had a camouflage uniform.
14 Q. Did he have a beard or a moustache?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Since, as you say, before the war you only knew him by sight, do
17 you allow for a possibility that you may have made a mistake, since you
18 don't know him that well? Perhaps it was another person?
19 MR. WEINER: I object to that, Your Honour. You're asking him to
20 speculate: Do you allow for a possibility?
21 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. That is a proper question in
22 cross-examination. Mr. Pantelic can proceed.
23 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. So my question related to your statement. Since you said that you
25 knew him only by sight, which means not as well, you didn't know him so
1 well, so perhaps you didn't have any specific knowledge of the way he
2 actually looked. Do you allow for a possibility that may have been
3 another person who looked like him?
4 A. No, I don't allow that possibility. Because if I had made a
5 mistake, other prisoners hadn't made the mistake, because, as I already
6 said, I was not alone there.
7 Q. Well, yes, but I'm asking you first of all about your personal
8 experience, since you don't know that man. How were you in a position to
9 know that that was him? I mean you personally. We'll come to the other
10 prisoners later, but now I'm asking you.
11 A. As I already said, I knew him by sight. And when you say that,
12 that means that I know that person very well, but we are not friends, we
13 are not acquaintances. We know each other from the street, from passing
14 each other in the street.
15 Q. Yes, but just a minute ago, when I asked you to describe him, you
16 told me you didn't remember, so I'm asking you now: Do you remember what
17 Dr. Blagoje Simic physically looked like at the time when you knew him by
18 sight, meaning before April 1992? Do you remember that?
19 A. No, I don't remember that, because it's been a long time.
20 Q. And now, in 2002, all of a sudden you do remember that. Have you
21 talked to somebody in the meantime about that in preparation for the
22 testimony here, or is it just a true recollection?
23 A. I simply remembered this. I haven't talked to anybody about it.
24 I identified Mr. Simic correctly in 1998, and I identified him here
25 correctly again. Another reason why I know Mr. Simic is that he was the
1 head of the dialysis department, and my grandmother went to dialysis every
2 other day.
3 Q. And then, when you say that you went with your grandmother, are
4 you trying to say that you accompanied your grandmother to the hospital
5 and had an opportunity to see Dr. Simic there?
6 A. Yes. Sometimes I went with her.
7 Q. You also said that you identified him in 1998. In what way did
8 you do that? Were you given photographs?
9 A. When the investigators from the Prosecution talked to me, I had to
10 identify persons.
11 Q. And now, when you looked at the defendants present here in this
12 videolink, you basically recognised Dr. Simic, just as you did in 1998,
13 when you were given his photograph; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are you tense about something? Should we take a break or can we
17 A. No, I'm not tense.
18 Q. So he looked the same in 1998, just as he looks now; is that
20 A. I don't remember exactly.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, I think you've dealt with this
22 identification problem sufficiently.
23 MR. PANTELIC: Just a couple of questions and I'm finished, Your
25 Q. [Interpretation] You mentioned that you followed something on
1 Internet. Did you follow the trials here in The Hague on Internet?
2 A. Are you asking me?
3 Q. Yes, I'm asking you.
4 A. Yes. I said that I followed trials.
5 Q. In your 1998 statement you never mentioned the presence of
6 Dr. Blagoje Simic in the TO; isn't that right?
7 A. I don't remember. If I didn't mention it, then probably it was
8 because nobody asked me about it.
9 Q. On the 8th and 9th of July, you said the following to the
10 Prosecution, on page 1. When you spoke about Blagoje Simic, you said you
11 knew him only by sight and that you remember seeing him during the war.
12 You said the following to the Prosecution:
13 [In English] "[Previous translation continues]... occasions while
14 the witness was being detained he saw the defendant in the courtyard of
15 the TO."
16 [Interpretation] Do you remember saying this to the Prosecution?
17 A. I don't know that I stated that I had seen him on two occasions.
18 I saw him only once, and quite briefly at that, five to ten minutes only.
19 Q. Mr. Subasic, bearing in mind that you did not mention him in your
20 1998 statement, bearing in mind that you don't remember what he looked
21 like in 1992 and in 1998, except for the fact that you saw him just now,
22 and in view of the fact that there are inconsistencies in your statements
23 given to the Prosecution, and also bearing in mind what you told us just
24 now, I'm asking you: What is your motive for not saying the truth and
25 claiming that my client, Blagoje Simic, went to the TO? Who made you, who
1 induced you to say that?
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.
3 MR. WEINER: That's a speech. That's not a question, Your Honour,
4 that's argumentative. If he wants to break that up and ask separate
5 questions, that's fine.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. If you're challenging the
7 witness on this, you can go ahead and do it, but break it down, as
8 Mr. Weiner has said.
9 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. So I'm asking you now, Mr. Subasic: Since my client claims that
11 he never visited the TO building, who suggested to you that you should
12 mention him now, in 2002, ten years after the events in Samac and after
13 several contacts you had with the Prosecution? Please give me the name.
14 Is it somebody from the Prosecution or some of the people who had are
15 living in the same town with you now?
16 A. Nobody told me to say this. I don't see anything bad about this.
17 Many people came to the TO building. I never said that Blagoje Simic
18 mistreated anybody there. Perhaps he came just out of curiosity there. I
19 don't know what the reason was. And I don't know why is he objecting to
20 the fact that I mention seeing him there when in fact I did see him
21 there. I would understand it if I had stated that he mistreated or beat
22 somebody, but I didn't say anything of the sort. I simply said that I saw
23 him briefly, for some five or ten minutes.
24 Q. But, Mr. Subasic, you told us you did not remember what he looked
25 like in 1992, when you went to the dialysis department with your
1 grandmother; isn't that right?
2 A. Please repeat the question. You are talking too loud, so I can't
3 understand what you're saying. I don't think there is any reason for you
4 to raise your voice.
5 Q. All right. I will repeat my question. You told us here that you
6 did not remember what Dr. Blagoje Simic looked like in 1992, when you went
7 with your grandmother to the dialysis centre. That's what you said to us
8 just now: You don't remember.
9 A. I didn't say it was in 1992, and it is true that I don't remember
10 what he looked like. A lot of time has passed in the meantime, and I
11 simply did not retain this. I don't remember what people who are much
12 closer to me looked like. Ten years have passed.
13 Q. And you also do not remember what he looked like when you
14 allegedly identified him in 1998, when urged by the Prosecution. You
15 don't remember that?
16 A. I don't remember that.
17 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that, Your Honour. I have no problem
18 with him asking what he looked like, even it's the second or third time
19 he's asked it, but the final phrase I'd ask be stricken: "When urged by
20 the Prosecution."
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. There is no evidence to that effect,
22 Mr. Pantelic. And I think I'll stop you. We've gone around this. You've
23 put all the questions, Mr. Pantelic.
24 MR. PANTELIC: One final question, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: No. That's -- on another topic. The final question
1 on another topic.
2 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Subasic, in 1998 you stated that your wife did not have a work
4 obligation. Do you remember saying that?
5 A. Yes, I remember. She did not have a work obligation.
6 Q. Did she tell you that the reason behind that was that she had
7 minor children?
8 A. My wife herself was a minor, and we had a baby, two-month-old
9 baby, when the war broke out.
10 Q. So did she tell you that that was the reason that she did not have
11 a work obligation?
12 A. She did not know the reason for not having a work obligation.
13 MR. PANTELIC: No further questions, Your Honour. I've finished
14 with this witness.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Next counsel.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Subasic. My name is Dragan
18 Krgovic, I am an attorney representing Mr. Miroslav Tadic, and on behalf
19 of him, I will be putting questions to you. I want to pick it up where
20 you left it off with my colleague Pantelic, but, however, your answer was
21 not recorded in the transcript. Your answer to the question regarding
22 shelling of Samac.
23 While you were in Samac, how frequent were these shellings?
24 A. I really don't remember. I know there were shellings, but I can't
25 tell you how frequent they were.
1 Q. Were they daily, monthly, weekly?
2 A. Well, I don't remember, and I wouldn't like to speculate.
3 Q. Another thing I wanted to ask you is this: Yesterday you
4 mentioned serving your mandatory military service. You said that you
5 served in Sarajevo in 1989, in anti-aircraft unit. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Tell me, please: After completing your military service, you had
8 your wartime assignment, didn't you?
9 A. No, I did not have a wartime assignment; at least, nobody informed
10 me of this. As far as I know, I didn't have one.
11 Q. After completing your military service, did you report to the
12 secretariat for defence, or the military office?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And in your military booklet, did they record your wartime
15 assignment, military assignment in the reserve forces?
16 A. I think they did not, but I can't claim with certainty. Perhaps
17 they did. I simply don't remember.
18 Q. Did you receive call-ups to attend military exercises?
19 A. I did not.
20 Q. Did you receive any summons to go and be issued some equipment or
21 be -- or to have your name entered into some military records?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You mentioned that you worked as a watchman in Mebos. You worked
24 in the security?
25 A. Yes. We had a stepped-up security, and several of us workers who
1 had previously worked in the manufacturing process came to help the
2 regular watchman, or the receptionist, and we worked as security guards.
3 Q. Can you tell me: When were you assigned to do this?
4 A. It was in November or December of 1991.
5 Q. Tell me, please: At the time you were issued with a uniform?
6 A. No, I was not issued with a uniform. I worked in my civilian
8 Q. So you did not have any type of uniform as a security officer?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. And tell me, please: You had a pistol that you received at work,
11 your service pistol?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, can you try to avoid repeating evidence
14 given in chief, please, and simply go to your questions. You see the
15 arrangement with this witness is quite expensive, so if you can -- we can
16 cut down on time as much as possible.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I simply wanted to lay the ground
18 for my next question, Your Honour, but I will try to proceed directly to
19 the question.
20 Q. Mr. Subasic, did you have a permit for your pistol?
21 A. Only within the company's compound.
22 Q. And who issued that permit to you?
23 A. It was the company, Mebos company.
24 Q. And do you know that at the time, only the SUP was authorised to
25 issue weapon permits?
1 A. Yes, I know that, and I think that Mebos must have requested this
2 permit from the SUP.
3 Q. But you did not receive a permit issued by the SUP to carry a
5 A. No, I did not.
6 Q. But you still had that pistol even when you went home, meaning
7 outside of the factory compound?
8 A. During the war, yes.
9 Q. But you did not have a permit?
10 A. Yes. I did not have permit, but a lot of people carried weapons
11 at that time without a permit.
12 Q. Can you please tell me who else carried weapons without permits?
13 A. Mr. Simo Zaric, Mr. Miroslav Tadic. Did they have permits to
14 carry automatic weapons? I don't know. Where can one obtain such
16 Q. Can you tell me whether your neighbour, Dedo Halilovic, had a
17 permit for an automatic weapon?
18 A. I don't know. I never saw him carrying an automatic weapon.
19 Q. And do you know that your neighbour, Dedo Halilovic, also
20 possessed an automatic weapon called Kalashnikov?
21 A. I don't know about that.
22 Q. Did you socialise with him?
23 A. Not particularly. We knew each other by sight, we greeted each
24 other, but we were not very close friends.
25 Q. His name is Dervis Halilovic, Dedo is his nickname; is that right?
1 A. Yes, probably it is. I know him by his nickname, Dedo, and I know
2 his last name is Halilovic, but I couldn't tell you his first name.
3 Q. And he had also a nickname, Gusak?
4 A. I don't know about that.
5 Q. Can you tell us me, Mr. Subasic, who was your immediate superior
6 while you were in the security at Mebos?
7 A. I think his last name was Sejdinovic. I don't know his first
8 name. I don't remember his first name.
9 Q. I'm asking you this because yesterday, when asked by the
10 Prosecutor about the fact that your supervisor had told you to go and take
11 a rest, you told us that your supervisor was a Serb, so what is it?
12 A. It wasn't my director or my immediate superior who came and told
13 me this. I think that several guys came, one from Crkvina and one from
14 another place, came and told me that I wasn't needed there any more, that
15 I should go home, and if they should need me, they would come and get me.
16 Both of them were Serbs.
17 Q. Did you go to see your immediate supervisor to inquire about
18 whether there is any need for you to come to work?
19 A. No, I did not go.
20 Q. You said that while you worked as a security guard, after April
21 17th, people of Serb ethnicity would come to the Mebos company and drive
22 away the goods from there. Can you tell me whether you took any steps to
23 prevent these people from taking away the goods manufactured at the
25 A. I did not take any steps.
1 Q. Did you inform anybody of this?
2 A. I think that I called the police. I told them about that. They
3 told me that they would send somebody regarding this.
4 Q. And who did you talk with in the police?
5 A. I don't remember the employee's name, the one who answered the
7 Q. We will switch to another topic. You said that you went to Cafe
8 AS several times. Do you remember saying that?
9 A. Yes, I remember that.
10 Q. Do you remember that members of all three ethnic communities
11 frequented that cafe, all three ethnic communities populating Samac?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know that Ibrahim Salkic went to that cafe?
14 A. I don't know about that. I simply said that I visited that cafe
15 several times. I can't tell you who else was there. I really don't
17 Q. And who did you visit that cafe with?
18 A. I think that I went alone. That cafe was on my way to my
19 apartment, so I think I went there alone. I can't even remember whether I
20 had a drink there or not.
21 Q. Do you remember what the interior of that cafe looked like?
22 A. Yes. I remember that the bar was to the right, but I couldn't
23 give you any more details.
24 Q. Mr. Subasic, during your testimony yesterday, on page 37, you said
25 that the night between 16th and 17th of April, 1992, you spent at home and
1 that you went outside at about 6.00 or 6.30. Is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that afterwards you went to your grandmother's, where you
4 spent some 45 minutes?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. When did you return back home?
7 A. Perhaps around 7.15 or 7.30.
8 Q. That morning?
9 A. Yes, that morning.
10 Q. On page 39, you said that late in the afternoon on the 17th of
11 April, you saw Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric in front of your building.
12 Do you remember saying that?
13 A. I remember saying that.
14 Q. In your statement of the 3rd of May, 1998, on page 3,.
15 "When on the following morning I looked out of my window, I saw
16 many soldiers going from house to house. It looked to me as if they were
17 searching for weapons. I also saw Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric sitting
18 on the same military vehicle."
19 Do you remember stating that to the Prosecutor in your interview
20 on the 25th of April and 3rd of May, 1998?
21 A. Yes, I remember.
22 Q. A few days ago, when you discussed with the Prosecutor some
23 things, the Prosecutor's notes reflect you as stating that in the late
24 morning or early afternoon, you saw Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric in front
25 of your building. So now I'm curious about this inconsistency in your
2 A. I really don't know.
3 Q. Mr. Subasic, can you recollect now: When did you see
4 Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric exactly? I'm interested both in the date
5 and the time of the day.
6 A. Well, let me tell you: That was ten years ago. I can't tell you
7 exactly, but it was in the afternoon, on the first day when Samac was
9 Q. Mr. Subasic, isn't that right that you cannot be specific about
10 the time when you allegedly saw Simo Zaric and Miroslav Tadic because you
11 were not at home that entire day on the 17th of April? Isn't that right?
12 A. I was at home.
13 Q. Mr. Subasic, let's clear something. Please tell the
14 Trial Chamber: At the time you lived together with your mother Bahrija;
15 isn't that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And she must have told you, since you said yourself she told you a
18 lot of things about what was happening in Samac, that she was very much
19 worried about you throughout the night and day because you only arrived at
20 home -- you arrived home on the 18th at 5.00 in the morning?
21 A. I don't know where you get this information, but that's not true.
22 Q. That morning, your mother went out of the house and went to visit
23 her grandmother and went looking for you around Samac; is that correct?
24 A. No, that's not correct.
25 Q. Mr. Subasic, are you aware of the fact that your mother had spoken
1 to the investigators of the OTP practically on the same day or the day
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Subasic, are you aware of the fact that your mother stated to
5 the investigators the following:
6 "I went out of the house -- I went out of the house and then I
7 went to sleep."
8 MR. WEINER: I'd object. They're trying to question him based on
9 what his mother said, and it's not as inconsistent. He's out at 6.30 in
10 the morning, his mother is at home, she doesn't see him, she goes out
11 looking for him. It's consistent with his testimony, but they're trying
12 to impeach him with a statement made by his mother in 19 -- I'll get the
13 exact date. It says dates of interview 2 May, 1950. I think they mean
14 1998, but I'm not -- they've got the wrong date on the statement. It's
15 May 2nd. It says 1950, but I know the interview wasn't in 1950.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I'm trying to
18 impeach this witness, but I'm also merely asking this witness whether he
19 is aware of the fact that his mother stated the following, and whether she
20 shared with him what she had told the investigators. And I'm merely
21 trying to investigate whether the witness discussed this with his mother.
22 We had the same situation with Esad Dagovic and his father.
23 So I'm not confronting him with the statement of another witness,
24 nor am I asking him to comment upon it. I'm merely asking him about his
25 personal knowledge of what his mother had said. That's a legitimate way
1 to conduct an examination.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I discussed this with my mother, but
3 I don't remember her stating that. I really don't know what she stated.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.
5 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I've got no objection if he wants to ask
6 him about his discussions that this witness had with his mother, number
8 Number two, however, the Esad Dagovic situation was much
9 different. There was a report which had never been disclosed, and I think
10 the Court made a special ruling based on that. He can do this, ask, you
11 know, what discussions he had with his mother in relation to the issue of
12 bias or if it is a relevant issue. However, they're trying to impeach
13 with the statement of one versus the other. So far we haven't allowed
14 that to be done. But actually, it's not even -- he can do it. It's not
15 even inconsistent. Because when the mother gets the uncle's house, which
16 are both in the same compound, he says it's there. There's no
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not quoting from
20 the statement. I'm merely asking the witness whether he's aware of the
21 fact that his mother had said this and that, and whether she had done this
22 or that. I'm not quoting from the statement. I'm not trying to tender it
23 into evidence. I'm not confronting the witness with it.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You can go ahead.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Subasic, are you aware of the fact -- or rather, did your
2 mother tell you that she was worried about you because you were out the
3 whole night, since you left home at 10.00 a.m., or rather, 10.00 p.m. -
4 I'm sorry - on the 16th of April, and that she said that at 7.00 a.m. she
5 went into town looking for you, that she didn't find you, that she went to
6 her mother's place, didn't find you there either, and then she returned
7 home, and then a neighbour told her that you were safe and that she should
8 not worry, and that you came home at 5.00 a.m. on the 18th of April and
9 that she was unable to sleep? Did your mother tell you about that?
10 A. No, she didn't.
11 Q. Is that right? Is that correct?
12 MR. WEINER: I'd object, Your Honour.
13 A. No, it's not.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
15 MR. WEINER: Once again, he's trying to impeach. Just what he
16 said he wasn't going to do, he's doing now he's trying to impeach one
17 witness --
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Krgovic. I wonder whether I could
20 just ask the witness a small question. I wonder whether you could tell
21 us: During this time period in question that Mr. Krgovic is discussing,
22 where your wife and two-month-old baby were.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the apartment.
24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Subasic, did your mother tell you that she had given a
2 statement to the investigators of the Tribunal in The Hague?
3 A. Yes, she did.
4 Q. Did she tell you that what I just told you, that she stated that
5 to the investigators of the Tribunal?
6 A. No, she didn't tell me that. We didn't discuss it in detail.
7 Q. Mr. Subasic, did you, together with your mother, answer the
8 questions asked by the Prosecutor a week ago?
9 A. No. We did it separately. My mother didn't speak to the
10 Prosecutors a week ago. They merely asked a few short questions.
11 Q. But was she present when you spoke with the Prosecutors?
12 A. No, she was not there.
13 Q. Now I will read from the Prosecutor's notes, just one sentence.
14 [In English] "[Previous translation continues] ... indicate that
15 in July she went to see Miroslav Tadic."
16 [Interpretation] Did I read this correctly? It would indicate
17 that both you and your mother --
18 A. Yes, you read it correctly. I've already told you that they
19 merely asked her a few questions, so she came in for a very short period
20 of time, answered a few questions, and then she left.
21 Q. Yet you said previously that she was not there when you spoke with
22 the Prosecutors?
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
24 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, to clarify it for the record, I was the
25 Prosecutor who interviewed both him and his mother. I interviewed this
1 witness for approximately a day and a quarter. I interviewed his mother
2 strictly not even five minutes, strictly on what she did on that one
3 occasion when she went to bribe or attempt to bribe Miroslav Tadic. For
4 the record.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
6 MR. WEINER: To clarify.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. And you were there, you listened in during that conversation?
9 A. Yes, that's correct. I was there.
10 Q. Why, then, did you say previously that your mother was not there,
11 in other words, that you didn't answer the questions put to you by the
12 Prosecutor together?
13 A. I told you previously that she only gave a few short answers to a
14 few short questions. I didn't say I was there, I didn't say I wasn't
16 Q. I don't understand your answer. Were you there or were you not
17 there while your mother was answering the questions put to her by the
19 A. How many times do I have to answer the very same question? I'm
20 answering you the third time.
21 Q. So were you or were you not present when your mother was giving
22 the statement?
23 A. I said: I was present while she was answering a few brief
25 Q. And your mother told you about all the events in Samac, everything
1 that went on during the war and while you were in detention; is that
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. WEINER: When? Don't try -- Your Honour, I don't want that
5 confused that that occurred while I was questioning them last week. Could
6 he state when that occurred.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. When did your mother tell you about that? You said yesterday to
10 the Prosecutor that you spoke with your mother at length about the events
11 in Samac, so my question to you is if you can give me the time frame for
12 when your mother told you about the events in Samac.
13 A. Mostly when I left the camp, immediately after I came out of the
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, it's now 1900 hours.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one more question.
17 Q. And she never told you that she was worried about you on the 17th
18 of April, 1992 and that she went looking for you around the town?
19 A. There must be some misunderstanding about the 17th of April. I
20 don't know what she stated there, but what she stated was a result of some
21 kind of misunderstanding.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it's time now for us to make
23 a break.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll adjourn until tomorrow at 1600 hours with this
25 witness. At 1415 we'll continue with the other witness.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of July
3 2002, at 2.15 p.m.