1 Tuesday, 23 July 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and
9 Simo Zaric.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are continuing with the Prosecution. I see
11 we have a new witness. Can the witness please make the solemn
12 declaration. Can she stand?
13 WITNESS: EDIBA BOBIC
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.
18 The Prosecution.
19 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Examined by Ms. Reidy:
21 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Bobic. Could I ask you just to state your date
22 and place of birth for the record, please.
23 A. My name is Ediba Bobic. I was born on the 31st of October, 1950,
24 in Brcko.
25 Q. Did you -- you were born in Brcko. Did you later move to
1 Bosanski Samac?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When was that?
4 A. It was on the 1st of May, 1998 or 1999.
5 Q. Mrs. Bobic --
6 A. In 1998, yes.
7 Q. Do you mean 1998 or 1968, Mrs. Bobic?
8 A. Oh, I apologise. It was in 1968.
9 Q. And you're married to Mr. Kemal Bobic; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you have children in Bosanski Samac?
12 A. Yes, two sons.
13 Q. And could you tell the Chamber what you were working as in
14 Bosanski Samac, and if you and your husband and your family owned any
15 businesses in Bosanski Samac after you moved there?
16 A. Yes. My husband and I had a catering facility and a hamburger
17 stand which we operated up until 1992.
18 Q. And you used to work in this hamburger stand; is that correct?
19 A. Yes. We were making kebabs there.
20 Q. And was the name of this place you worked in Sedrvan?
21 A. Yes. This catering facility, cafe, was called Sedrvan. That's
23 Q. And I understand that where you lived in Bosanski Samac you also
24 had two businesses under your house, a little shop and a herb pharmacy; is
25 that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. REIDY: I think perhaps the microphone could be moved closer
3 to the witness. Maybe all her answers are not being picked up.
4 Q. Mrs. Bobic, I'd like to ask you about some people who were in
5 Bosanski Samac and ask you whether you know them. Do you know a gentleman
6 by the name of Mr. Miroslav Tadic?
7 Mrs. Bobic, could I ask you to speak a bit louder for the record
8 so that the translators can hear your answers.
9 A. Very well.
10 Q. So perhaps you could just let the Chamber know whether or not you
11 do in fact know a gentleman by the name of Miroslav Tadic.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And how did you know Mr. Tadic? Did you know him well? Did you
14 know him in a social context?
15 A. I know Mr. Tadic very well. I know him from the school. He used
16 to work as a teacher, and occasionally he would come to our cafe, have
17 breakfast there, coffee, so we knew him well. Later on he opened up a
18 cafe himself, and occasionally we would visit his cafe, but once the Cafe
19 AS became a gambling place as well, we did not go there any more.
20 Q. Mrs. Bobic, could I ask you to have a look around the Chamber this
21 morning and see if you see the Miroslav Tadic you've described to the
22 Chamber; and if you can see him, could you describe where he's sitting for
23 the record, please.
24 A. Mr. Miroslav is sitting on the first chair, I think to the left.
25 He has a moustache, glasses; he's writing down something.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MS. REIDY: Can the record reflect that Mr. Tadic has been
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
5 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
6 Q. Mrs. Bobic, do you also know someone called Simo Zaric?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And could you also explain to the Chamber the context you know
9 Mr. Zaric in and how well you know him.
10 A. Simo Zaric came to Bosanski Samac approximately a year after me,
11 and he married Fatima, and he lived with her up until the war. We lived
12 in the same neighbourhood. He worked at the SUP and occasionally would
13 come to our restaurant, eat kebabs there. Sometimes we would sit
14 together. Occasionally we would celebrate birthdays together. But bad
15 times came afterwards, such bad times that we had to leave our town.
16 Q. And Mrs. Bobic, could you also see if you could identify
17 Mr. Simo Zaric in this Chamber today, and if so, to describe for the
18 record who you identify as Mr. Zaric.
19 A. Simo Zaric is sitting in the middle of the desk, next to
20 Miro Brko. I know him well. He knows me well as well.
21 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I think the record can reflect that --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
23 MS. REIDY:
24 Q. And Mrs. Bobic, the third gentleman, Mr. Blagoje Simic, do you
25 know Mr. Blagoje Simic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And could you explain to us again how well you know
3 Mr. Blagoje Simic.
4 A. I have known Blagoje since he was a student. He used to come to
5 our place, and we used to see him as a doctor. He was our treating
6 physician. He treated us, respected us. But, however, the bad times came
7 afterwards and we were imprisoned.
8 Q. Thank you. And as you've done with the other two, could you
9 please see if you could identify Blagoje Simic is here today; and if you
10 do see the Blagoje Simic you're talking about, for the record, tell us
11 where you see him.
12 A. Blagoje Simic is sitting in the first chair to my right or to my
13 left -- well, if I were to stand in front, then I guess it would be to my
14 left. He has a short beard. He has changed a bit from the time when he
15 was younger, but however I know him well, so I can recognise him.
16 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, could I -- the record reflect that
17 Mr. Simic has been identified?
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
19 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
20 Q. Mrs. Bobic, I'd like to ask you some questions about
21 Bosanski Samac in around the time period 1991 and 1992. Had you heard of
22 an organisation called the 4th Detachment at this time period in
23 Bosanski Samac?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what did you know of the 4th Detachment prior to the 17th of
1 April, 1992?
2 A. All I knew was that that was some kind of a military organisation
3 preparing some kind of a defence against Muslims and Croats.
4 Q. And did you know whether any of the defendants that you've
5 identified this morning were involved with the 4th Detachment?
6 A. I think that all three were involved.
7 Q. Mrs. Bobic, I need to ask you just one or two questions about a
8 topic I don't intend to dwell on, but just for the record --
9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Ms. Reidy. I wonder whether you can
10 clarify. The witness said that she thinks that all three were involved.
11 Does she think other? Does she know?
12 MS. REIDY:
13 Q. Mrs. Bobic, perhaps you could clarify that for us. I'll take you
14 through each defendant. Mr. Simo Zaric, do you have any knowledge as to
15 whether or not he was involved with the 4th Detachment?
16 A. Simo Zaric recruited young people and everybody else for his
17 4th Detachment.
18 Q. And do you know this -- how do you know this information that he
19 was recruiting people?
20 A. Well, let me tell you: This is something that he should know as
21 well. We lived in the same neighbourhood. We saw everything that was
22 happening. We knew everything. They started distancing themselves from
23 us. They wouldn't come to our restaurants any more. They simply
24 distanced themselves from us. They started gathering at Miro Brko's cafes
25 [As interpreted]. Personnel carriers would come there frequently, and I
1 would see them in his presence. Because I had to pass by his cafe on my
2 way to my house.
3 Q. Mrs. Bobic, when you say "they started distancing
4 themselves," could you just clarify for the record who you mean by "they"?
5 A. The 4th Detachment.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just an objection concerning to
8 interpretation, page 6, line 24, the witness said they used to gather in
9 the cafe of Miro Brko's brother and that is not what is reflected in the
10 transcript. We heard the witness say that they used to gather in the cafe
11 of Miro Brko's brother. So could we clarify that.
12 A. Yes. That cafe was close to my house, the cafe belonging to
13 Miro Brko's brother. Personnel carriers would be there and various
14 troops. The brother of Miro Brko was also known to distribute Malboro
15 cigarettes to his troops that were moving in that area.
16 MS. REIDY:
17 Q. And Miro's brother, this is a man called Vlajko Tadic; is that
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. So now Mr. Miroslav Tadic himself, do you have any information as
21 to whether he was connected with the 4th Detachment?
22 A. Certainly, yes.
23 Q. And what makes you so certain?
24 A. Well, because he was involved in the exchange of many people.
25 Q. So prior to the takeover on the 17th of April, 1992, did you have
1 reason to believe that Miroslav Tadic was a member of the 4th Detachment?
2 A. We did not have a reason to suppose so, but this is how it was.
3 We were all surprised by this.
4 Q. When you say you were surprised, what do you mean that you were
5 surprised? In what way were you surprised?
6 A. I was surprised because he used to teach our children, educate
7 them, and then later on some bad things happened.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 Finally, Mr. Blagoje Simic. Did you have any -- do you have any
10 knowledge as to whether or not he was involved with the 4th Detachment?
11 A. I think that we saw him at the municipal building as the president
12 of the municipal government, that at that time he was already involved in
13 those Serbian organisations, that he was together with the Chetniks.
14 Q. Mrs. Bobic, are you now talking about the period before the 17th
15 of April, 1992, or after the takeover of Bosanski Samac?
16 A. After the takeover of power in Bosanski Samac.
17 Q. So for the moment I'd like to continue to concentrate on the time
18 before the 17th of April, 1992, and at that time do you have any
19 information as to whether Blagoje Simic was involved with the
20 4th Detachment?
21 A. Well, at that time, Dr. Simic did not want to attend any meetings
22 that were public except those that were the meetings of the Chetnik
23 organisations. This is how it was before the 17th. We knew that he was
24 there with his people.
25 Q. When you say "Chetnik organisations," what organisations
1 specifically are you referring to or do you have in mind?
2 A. The 4th Detachment.
3 Q. Mrs. Bobic, you said you had two sons. One of them was -- your
4 eldest son was called Enver; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And is it correct that he was tragically killed in an explosion on
7 the 14th of February, just before the war?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And I understand that after that time you were in mourning and you
10 weren't paying much attention to what was happening in Bosanski Samac; is
11 that correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. I'd like just to ask you now about the 16th of April, 1992. Were
14 you at home with your family on the night of the 16th of April, 1992?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And at some stage during that night were you awakened by the
17 sounds of gunfire or shooting?
18 A. At that moment, we heard somebody walking in my yard. I got up,
19 turned on the light, looked through the window, and I heard somebody
20 say, "Turn off the light or I will shoot." I didn't see who it was, and I
21 didn't know at the time what was going on.
22 After that, we heard an explosion from the direction of the SUP
23 building. We all became quiet. We didn't leave the house. We remained
24 like that until 5.00 a.m. The dawn started breaking out. I opened the
25 door and came out, and there was nobody in the street. There was nothing
1 going on. We remained in the stairwell really quiet.
2 Q. Is your house located near to the SUP and the Territorial Defence
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it correct to say that --
6 A. My house -- my house is located in Lola Ribar Street. There was
7 just one passage between the houses -- in between my house and the main
8 street. This is where the troops used to pass. I suppose they were on
9 their way to the TO building. They were jumping over the fences in order
10 to get to the TO.
11 Q. So is it that the back of your house, the yard of your house,
12 backs on to the street where the TO and the SUP buildings are? Is that
14 A. No. Between our house and my yard, there is another house, and
15 only after that you get to the main road.
16 Q. And was it your impression that people were passing through your
17 yard that evening to get to the SUP and TO buildings?
18 A. Yes. This is the conclusion we made that same day upon hearing
19 that Samac had fallen.
20 Q. You said that you remained very quiet until about 5.00 in the
21 morning. What happened then at 5.00 in the morning? Did you go outside
22 to have a look at what was going on?
23 A. No. I just opened the door and looked at the road. There was
24 nobody there. Everything was empty.
25 Q. And how did you first receive information that there had been a
1 takeover in Bosanski Samac that evening?
2 A. My husband had friends, and two of them called me. One was
3 Vlado Sarkanovic and Djordje Pisarevic, called Ruka. They called us and
4 told us that Samac had fallen and wondered what we're going to do, because
5 Samac fell into Serb hands.
6 Q. Do you recall exactly what they had said to you? When they said
7 it had fallen, what exactly did they mean by that?
8 A. Well, they meant that since we were Muslims, we would have no
9 rights there any more.
10 Q. Did they tell you who was now in charge of Bosanski Samac?
11 A. He said the Serbs.
12 Q. Did you hear any other public --
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I apologise to my learned colleague,
14 but I didn't react first time, then it was the second time. This is
15 actually the second time that I have noticed that our learned colleague
16 from the Prosecution is calling a witness to speculate. First time it was
17 what was her impression regarding the soldiers, and it was the way that
18 they went jumping through fences and things like that. But this was
19 actually the second time, what was actually her impression and what -- the
20 words that Mr. Sarkanovic and Mr. Djordje Pisarevic said to her, what they
22 Actually, it was typical example of calling for speculation what
23 someone else meant. And I would just like to ask my learned colleague to
24 avoid these kinds of questions. This is a fact witness and it is not -- I
25 don't believe that this is a witness who is -- well, speculation are
1 important for this case. This is not an expert witness.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Sometimes it's correct to ask a witness what they
3 meant, because you're asking the witness what the witness understood by
4 whatever was said to that witness.
5 So, Ms. Reidy --
6 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll be careful the way I
7 phrase it, but that's exactly what I meant. I think these are fact
8 questions. I'm asking this witness to clarify exactly what was understood
9 or what was heard, if I think there's an ambiguity on the record. I'm not
10 intending to ask the witness to speculate.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
12 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Please proceed.
14 MS. REIDY:
15 Q. Mrs. Bobic, did you receive -- or did you hear any other public
16 announcements that morning or during the day about what had happened in
17 Bosanski Samac or instructions about action you should take or how you
18 should behave?
19 A. During the first days, we realised we were unable to go outside.
20 They started looking for weapons, and if somebody happened to have
21 weapons, they came to our house, 15 of men, and told us we had to
22 surrender the weapons that we did not have. My husband's brother,
23 Faruk Bobic, was a hunter and died before the war. He had a trophy rifle,
24 and they confiscated it and took it away.
25 On that same day -- or rather, the following morning and
1 afternoon, young guys started collecting people and things to protect
2 facilities from shelling. They used to get sandbags and protect those
3 facilities where people from the 4th Detachment were. It was very
4 difficult for us. When going into the street, we were unable to approach
5 anybody. People were afraid to greet each other because we were not
6 allowed to gather in a group of more than three people. If we went to do
7 our work obligation, we had to put a white armband in order to be able to
8 go and work. It was very difficult for us.
9 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Bobic.
10 I'd just like to ask you some more questions about some of the
11 information you've given us, okay? The first thing I'd like to ask you
12 more questions about is the men who came to take away weapons from your
13 house. You said there were 10 or 15 of them. Did you know any of the
14 people who came to take weapons?
15 A. Yes. There was Tubonja there, Dragan Tubonja, Mersad Seric [As
16 interpreted]. They had masks on, so I couldn't tell you who they were.
17 It was just terrible, terrible to look, because after so many handsome
18 faces that we used to see before, all of a sudden we would have these
19 masked people coming to our door with weapons.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, just one clarification for the
21 transcript. It's page 13, line 11. Here it said Mersad Seric. It was
22 actually Naser Sejdic. This is what the witness said. Maybe just --
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy. You can correct the --
24 MS. REIDY: I think my learned friend is correct. I'll clarify
1 JUDGE MUMBA: -- name, yes.
2 MS. REIDY:
3 Q. Mrs. Bobic, you mentioned two people you recognised:
4 Dragan Tubonja, and the second, was it Naser Sejdic?
5 A. Naser Sejdic, a former policeman.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, you said they had masks on. How did you
7 recognise these two people? How do you know that these two were amongst
8 the 15 or so people?
9 A. Let me tell you: They did not have painted faces. They were in
10 ordinary clothes and they came to search my house. They searched it
11 thoroughly from basement to the attic. They opened all closets. They
12 threw things around. I don't know what they were looking for.
13 Q. So these men came with others who were wearing masks; is that a
14 correct understanding?
15 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. Were these men in military uniform? Were they wearing a uniform,
17 and if so, could you describe what sort of uniform, if you can recall?
18 A. Yes, they were in uniforms. Some people wore uniforms from the
19 former army and some people wore camouflage uniforms.
20 Q. And were they all armed, carrying weapons?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I believe, then, that you said you received instructions that you
23 were not to gather in groups of more than three is that correct?
24 And do you know --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up.
1 MS. REIDY:
2 Q. Mrs. Bobic, could I ask you just to speak a little louder?
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Could the chair be pushed forward? I think the
4 witness is sitting too far from the microphone.
5 MS. REIDY:
6 Q. Mrs. Bobic, I need to ask you the question again for the record.
7 Did you receive instructions that you could not gather in more than -- in
8 groups of more than three?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And how did you receive these instructions? Do you recall how you
11 were told?
12 A. Well, it was broadcast over the radio, and when you got out, they
13 simply pushed -- chased you away. They prevented you from meeting other
14 people, and there were little pieces of paper posted around.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 When you say "they prevented you from meeting other people," who
17 are "they"?
18 A. These were the men in uniforms.
19 Q. They are people in camouflage uniform or police uniform, or both?
20 A. Both.
21 Q. And I think you also said you received instructions that you had
22 to wear white armbands. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And how did you receive that information? Was it also over the
1 A. Over the radio, and all the lads that went to work the first day
2 had to tie the armbands, and they told us that if we went out, we had to
3 wear the armbands to show that we were Muslims. It was most certainly
4 done in order for them to be easier to round us up and to send us all into
6 Q. Thank you.
7 After the first few days, were you -- did you receive instructions
8 that you should leave your home and move into another place of shelter?
9 A. We were at our home. Vlajko came to our house and Vlajko is a
10 neighbour of mine, and he said that we had to go and seek shelter in
11 Idriz Nogic's house. And he gathered the entire street, from the first
12 street leading to the SUP building down to Djakici, from the memorial home
13 onwards. We all had to go to that shelter. I don't know why. He didn't
14 explain why, but we had to leave our homes and go and find accommodation
16 In this house where we were accommodated, this was not meant to
17 accommodate people. This was a hen house. This was in an area where hens
18 that were raised there were kept.
19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mrs. Bobic. You mentioned, a few
20 minutes ago, that apart from broadcasts over the radio concerning the
21 white armbands, that there were, in your words, "little pieces of paper
22 posted around." I wonder whether you could just tell us a little bit more
23 about those little pieces of paper, what they said, whether they were
24 signed by somebody. Was there any indication on those little pieces of
25 paper as to who was authorising the wearing of the white armbands?
1 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, may I -- I don't have the transcript in
2 front of me. I think, just from my recollection, was the bits of paper
3 referring to the gathering in three or more and not the armbands? Just
4 so --
5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes. Actually, yes, you're quite correct. Yes.
6 The radio was the white armbands. You're quite correct, Ms. Reidy. The
7 radio and the little pieces of paper were concerning the gathering in
8 groups of three or more. But I'd still like to know something about those
9 little pieces of paper.
10 MS. REIDY: I understand. Just so the witness isn't confused.
11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you about the
13 papers. They were posted on the trees, and it was stated there that more
14 than two or three people could not gather and that we were not allowed to
15 talk to each other.
16 MS. REIDY:
17 Q. You said two or three people. Did it say --
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. Any people or did it refer to any specific ethnic group?
20 A. Not even Serbs or Croats could gather in groups more than two or
21 three people.
22 Q. These little pieces of paper -- the signs you saw on trees, when
23 were you able to see these announcements on the trees?
24 A. From the 14th February onwards, I didn't know the exact dates of
25 any events, and -- because for me, the war started on the 14th of
1 February. From then onwards, everything that I had was ruined for me. So
2 I also learned about the date when the war ended, only later on.
3 Q. Mrs. Bobic, I understand that the tragic death of your son on the
4 14th of February is difficult for you, but I need to ask you if you can
5 try to focus as much as you can on the time period I'm asking you about.
6 Did you start forced labour, doing forced labour, later on, in the
7 second half of 1992, a few months after the takeover?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 And when you were on your way to report for forced labour, was
11 that when you saw these announcements you said were put on trees?
12 A. Well, let me tell you: I read them, but I wouldn't be able to
13 tell you the specific date. I'm really sorry. I apologise.
14 Q. That's okay. You said you read them -- Her Honour Judge Williams
15 had asked whether you have any recollection as to if they were signed by
16 anybody in particular or had any stamp on them. Do you have any
17 recollection about that?
18 A. I remember only that there was this piece of paper which was
19 written on a computer, stating that we were not allowed to gather. We
20 were not even allowed to gather around the tree to read this piece of
21 paper. I was really exhausted at that time. I have to tell you that I
22 had 43 kilos when I was released from the camp, and before the war I
23 weighed a hundred kilos.
24 MS. REIDY: Your Honour -- thank you.
25 Q. Now, you have told us that you were moved from your home and you
1 mentioned the name of Vlajko. Is this -- Vlajko came to tell you to
2 move. Is this Vlajko Tadic, the gentleman you've already mentioned?
3 A. When Vlajko told us that we had to move out, we had to do so and
4 go to Idriz's house. There were quite a few of us there. All of us from
5 the street had to find accommodation there. The accommodation was very
6 bad [As interpreted].
7 Q. And is the -- the Vlajko, is that Vlajko Tadic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. And the house you were to move to, was that belonging
10 to the gentleman Idriz Nogic?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
12 MS. REIDY:
13 Q. Mrs. Bobic, could I ask you to repeated the answer, because it's
14 not being picked up on the -- by the microphone.
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a little correction to the
18 interpretation. Page 18, 22, line 22. The word "shelter" is not
19 contained in the transcript. The witness said "the accommodation in the
20 shelter was very bad," and not that "the accommodation was very bad."
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, perhaps you can correct that with the
23 MS. REIDY:
24 Q. Mrs. Bobic, I don't know if you recall. You told us that you all
25 had to find accommodation in Idriz's house. Did you say the accommodation
1 was very bad or the accommodation in the shelter was very bad?
2 A. The accommodation where we were. That was not a shelter. This
3 was a place where a man had chickens. This is where we were. They called
4 it a shelter.
5 Q. You said a lot of you were gathered there. Could you tell me the
6 ethnicity of the people who were required to gather in this hen house?
7 A. Muslims and Croats were gathered there. In fact, there was only
8 one Croat woman in our street. Her name was Kadica. There was
9 Idriz Nogic, with his wife, Gordana, who was a Serb. My entire family was
10 also there, my sister, with her children, the Nogics, Emina, her mother,
11 her brother. There was also Sadeta Kapetanovic, Arifa.
12 Q. Apart from Mr. Nogic's wife, Gordana, were there any other Serb
13 families required to gather in the house or were you all Muslim and
15 A. No.
16 Q. No, there were no -- no, there were no Serb families; is that
18 A. No, there weren't.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 Did you have any choice in moving to this accommodation?
21 A. We had no choice. We had to go there, as they had told us. Why
22 would I have left my house otherwise?
23 Q. You didn't want to leave your house?
24 A. No, I didn't.
25 Q. Whilst you were all gathered there, did people come by to check on
2 A. Yes. Vlajko Tadic came. It seems that he was in charge of our
4 Q. And when he came by to check, would he say anything in particular,
5 or what did he do when he came by to check?
6 A. When he came by, he said that we were not to go out, that we had
7 to stay in.
8 Q. Whilst you were detained there, were any of the men arrested from
9 Mr. Idriz Nogic's?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How many men were arrested, if you can recall?
12 A. Two, as far as I know. That's correct. There was Batan and
13 Suma. Batan's real name was Sead Hurtic, and Suma's real name was -- just
14 a minute. Ruzmir Hodzic. Ruzmir or Rusmir.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 Can you recall who carried out those arrests?
17 A. I didn't see them. They simply got out and never came back.
18 Q. So was it the others in the accommodation with you who told you
19 they had been arrested?
20 A. The others said that they had been taken away to the TO, but we
21 heard that on that very same day, Batan was killed, and Ruzmir was beaten
22 quite badly and then he was taken to hospital, where he stayed for a long
23 time, and later on that's where he died.
24 Q. Apart from the men that were arrested, were any of the people
25 gathered in the accommodation required to perform forced labour whilst you
1 were there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was your son, your second son is called Bedrudin. Was he required
4 to do forced labour?
5 A. Yes. He went to gather sandbags, and so did Nermin Bobic, my
6 sister's son, Milka Nogic [As interpreted] also went, and so did Emina.
7 Q. How did your son and --
8 A. Her name is not Milka, but Emina.
9 Q. How did your son and your nephew and the others learn that they
10 were required to perform forced labour, such as gathering sandbags?
11 A. Well, let me tell you: Lads would come with pieces of paper and
12 asking people to go according to the list. We didn't know where they
13 went, but when they came back, they would tell us what they had been
15 Q. The people who came with these lists, were they in uniform? Were
16 they carrying weapons?
17 A. Right from the start, these were lads in uniforms that I didn't
19 Q. You didn't know them yourself. Could you tell whether they were
20 local people or non-locals, or did you not know?
21 A. I couldn't tell who they were, because I couldn't go out to look
22 at them. But at any rate, young men went to work. They didn't want to do
23 so, but they were forced to go.
24 Q. Your son, you said, had to gather sandbags. Was that the only
25 task he was required to perform or was he required to perform other tasks
1 as well?
2 A. No. That's what they did at the beginning of the work
3 obligation. Later on they had to do more difficult tasks, and they had to
4 dig trenches and also requisition other people's property. So that would
5 be harder work.
6 Q. Did your son, Bedrudin, ever receive any payment for these tasks
7 that he would perform?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Whilst your son was performing these tasks, do you know whether he
10 was under armed guard?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How do you know that he was under armed guard?
13 A. Every time he came back in the evening, he would always tell me
14 about his day.
15 Q. Was there ever any occasion that he was fired on whilst performing
16 these tasks?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was this a frequent occurrence or did this happen just once or
20 A. My son was fired on once. He went to dig trenches during the
21 night. It was the night shift. They were led by Mile, nicknamed Pancir.
22 Right now I couldn't recall the last name of that man, because I find it
23 hard to concentrate right now.
24 He fired at his feet. He fell down and was brought home at around
25 3.30 a.m. in a very difficult condition. He didn't know what was going
1 on. He was unconscious. I looked at him. He had high blood pressure and
2 he was sweating. These were really very hard times for me. I don't know
3 what to tell you.
4 In the morning I gathered all my strength and went to the health
5 care centre. Some doctors worked there who help me, really, so -- and he
6 had really high blood pressure, 225. That's not something that a man can
7 survive. We brought him home and he -- and left him lying there, and then
8 after a while --
9 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Bobic. Don't worry. That's more than enough
10 information. Perhaps you'd just like to take a minute or two before I ask
11 you any more questions.
12 Mrs. Bobic, if it's okay, I'd like to ask you some more questions.
13 Did Behrudin perform forced labour all the time whilst -- every day whilst
14 you were in Bosanski Samac after the takeover?
15 A. Every day until the day of the exchange.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, in this initial period of the takeover as well,
17 did you receive a distribution of some milk and bread?
18 A. Yes. My neighbour Vlajko was in this group, he and his son
19 Dragan. Vlajko Tadic and his son Dragan. They distributed bread on
20 behalf of Bosanski Samac, I'm sure, and they gave bread and milk to
21 everybody from our street.
22 Q. Thank you. Did this distribution happen once or did it happen on
23 more occasions?
24 A. I know of only one occasion.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you at some stage return to your own accommodation
1 from that of Mr. Nogic?
2 A. We came back without asking. Nobody told us to go back, but we
3 simply went back because we didn't like where we were staying. So we went
4 back to our house and took shelter below the staircase.
5 Q. Can you recall roughly how long you may have stayed in Idriz
6 Nogic's house? Was it a few weeks after the takeover? Mrs. Bobic, could
7 you just maybe speak a little bit louder so that the microphone can get
8 your answer, please.
9 A. I apologise.
10 Q. We just want to get all your evidence.
11 So could you tell me again, if you recall, how long you stayed in
12 Idriz Nogic's?
13 A. For a long time.
14 Q. Was it a matter of weeks?
15 A. We definitely stayed there several weeks.
16 Q. When you moved back to your own accommodation, was your husband
18 A. No. At that time he was at home. They came to arrest him on one
19 occasion, with a white TAM truck, small truck. They banged on the door.
20 I opened the door and in front of it I saw my neighbour, Fadil Topcagic,
21 with another two men. The man who had a red beret recognised me right
22 away. He asked me where Kemal was, and I told him that Kemal was inside.
23 That man said that Fadil Topcagic could not take my husband because he
24 would remain in our house --
25 THE INTERPRETER: The last phrase that the witness said was not
2 A. That man used to play chess with my husband. He was from
3 Vukovar. He was not from Samac. And at the time when he played chess
4 with my husband, he was not with Fadil Topcagic. There was a chess
5 tournament, and they were unable to accommodate all the people that came
6 to the tournament, so we put up some people in our house, and they stayed
7 in our house. However, the war broke out, and after the war broke out
8 this man came to our door, not knowing whom he was supposed to arrest.
9 His name was Mile Kitic, called Vukovarac, and he said, "You will not take
10 Kemal out of here," and he told Fadil to go on. Fadil went away. He came
11 into our house, and on that occasion he saved my husband from being
12 executed in Crkvina. So that day was very difficult, very tense for us.
13 It was difficult to live through all that. Those moments were unexpected.
14 Q. Thank you. I understand that you were -- two people came to
15 arrest Kemal. One was Fadil Topcagic, another man you knew from before
16 the war. Was he dressed in camouflage uniform?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Fadil was not arrested that day, and through the
19 intervention of a man --
20 A. Not Fadil.
21 Q. Sorry. Kemal was not arrested that day. Thank you. Was he
22 arrested afterwards?
23 A. Yes. Fadil came to get him.
24 Q. This is Fadil Topcagic? Did he come by himself or did he come in
25 the company of other persons?
1 A. I just told you: Fadil was with Pero Kitic and another man. I
2 can't tell you his name right away. I feel so tense that I can't remember
3 the name right now. There were three other men in that van in which they
4 came to arrest Kemal. They put rifles out right away, but Kitic said that
5 they wouldn't take him away. That was on the first occasion when they
6 came to arrest him.
7 Q. Thank you. And the second occasion -- I understand on the second
8 occasion Kemal was actually arrested, and I'd like to concentrate now on
9 that second occasion.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was Kemal arrested from your home? Could you just - sorry -
12 repeat your answer again? We're finding it hard to pick up. Was Kemal
13 arrested from your home?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you recall who came to conduct the arrest?
16 A. Naser Sejdic.
17 Q. And was Naser Sejdic by himself or was he accompanied by other
19 A. There were two other men with him.
20 Q. And were these men wearing any uniform and were they carrying
22 A. Yes. They had uniforms and weapons.
23 Q. And were these camouflage uniforms or police uniforms?
24 A. All three were military uniforms. Naser wore a policeman's
25 uniform, and the other two wore a military one.
1 Q. Thank you. Did they explain to Kemal or to you where they were
2 taking him or for what reason they had come to take him away?
3 A. Well, this is how it was: Naser said that Kemal needed to go to
4 have an informative interview. He left and did not come back until the
5 6th of October, 1994.
6 Q. Was Kemal taken to the SUP building?
7 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I know it's 20 minutes to our break, but
8 I wonder if we can take a five-minute earlier break and perhaps the
9 witness can take some time and compose herself.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can take an early break.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall have a break of 20 minutes and resume the
13 proceedings at 10.30.
14 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.09 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.34 a.m.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
18 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Q. Mrs. Bobic, before the break I -- you were giving your evidence
20 about the arrest of your husband Kemal, and I asked you whether Kemal was
21 taken to the SUP building.
22 A. Yes, Kemal was taken to the SUP building.
23 Q. Did you ever try to go to see him in the SUP building?
24 A. I had to go to the SUP building because I was asked to report
25 there in the morning.
1 Q. And who told you that you should report to the SUP building?
2 A. A policeman on duty came in and told me that I had to report to
3 the SUP building. I went there, and I was met by a policeman in a blue
4 uniform, and I asked him why I needed to report upstairs. He told me to
5 go up there. I went upstairs and found Vlado Sarkan [As interpreted]
6 there. He met me, he asked me why I had come, and I told him that I was
7 told to report to him. He told me that Kemal was doing well and that I
8 need not to report there again, unlike other people.
9 I went downstairs, and a former policeman, Savo - I don't know his
10 last name - stood there. Later on he was killed by a shell. He asked me
11 why I was there. I told him. And then he said, "Go and say hi to Kemal."
12 I went to the corridor and I said, "Kemal, I'm here," and Kemal
13 said to me, "Ediba go home. Don't remain here any more." He didn't know
14 why I was there. He didn't know I was there until I said hi to him. And
15 he simply told me that I should go home.
16 I went home and I remained there without going out until -- unless
17 I needed to go and get some water.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 You said you went to -- you were told to report in the morning.
20 Was this the morning of the day after Kemal was arrested?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when you say you went upstairs and spoke with
23 Vlado Sarkanovic, was that the second floor of the SUP building?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the corridor which you spoke to Kemal -- you heard Kemal's
1 voice, that was the first floor of the SUP building; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. It was on the ground floor.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: As the witness already stated, I mean the question
5 that was posed to the witness when she said the second floor, I mean I
6 think that it is not in dispute any more that there is no second floor of
7 the SUP building. There was a ground floor and first floor. So maybe
8 just for the clarification of record, if we are talking about ground floor
9 and first floor.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
11 MS. REIDY: I guess it depends how you categorise these things. I
12 meant -- I call it the second floor because there's a few steps, we know
13 from the photographs taking you onto the -- as you first enter the SUP
15 Q. If there's any confusion -- Mrs. Bobic --
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Because -- I don't know. Maybe you can correct it.
17 Because her answer where she met with her husband, she says it was on the
18 ground floor.
19 MS. REIDY: Okay.
20 Q. And --
21 A. I didn't meet my husband there. I simply heard his voice.
22 Q. -- ground floor. And Vlado Sarkanovic, it was upstairs. It
23 wasn't the ground floor; it was the first floor, upstairs?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. Did you later receive information that Kemal had been moved from
1 the SUP building to the Territorial Defence building?
2 A. Yes. He was transferred there, but it took a long time for him to
3 be transferred to the TO.
4 Q. When you say "a long time," do you mean a few days or a number of
6 A. Several weeks.
7 Q. Several weeks before you learnt that he was in the TO building; is
8 that it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you ever get a chance to see your husband, Kemal, during his
11 detention in the Territorial Defence building?
12 A. Yes. My husband was beaten up in the TO building, and I heard
13 that he was supposed to be exchanged. One young man, a policeman, told me
14 that he would bring him to the water pump so that I could see him, because
15 he was going to be exchanged. I prepared his underwear and a bit of money
16 for him to come out. However, I was unable to deliver that to him because
17 he was not exchanged on that occasion, and he remained in the TO.
18 Q. Did this occur around the end of August or September of 1992, to
19 your recollection?
20 A. Yes. Between August and September.
21 Q. He wasn't exchanged, but did you get a chance to see him when he
22 was brought out to the water pump?
23 A. Yes, I saw him. He had a very short haircut, almost no hair, and
24 we waved to each other.
25 Q. Thank you. During your time in Bosanski Samac after the takeover
1 and after your husband was arrested, from your house, could you hear any
2 screams or sounds of singing coming from the SUP building and the
3 Territorial Defence building?
4 A. Certainly. It was very close, and one could hear it very well.
5 We could hear the songs sung, and we could hear how they beat prisoners.
6 I could recognise my husband's moans. He was beaten so badly that he was
7 unable to get up. He was all broken up. There were worms in his wounds
8 and I learned that from others.
9 Q. Mrs. Bobic, did you sometimes have the opportunity to bring food
10 to your husband or other detainees in the TO?
11 A. Sometimes.
12 Q. And were there some good guards in the TO who would bring in this
13 food to your husband and other detainees?
14 A. Certainly. There are always some good people around.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 While your husband was detained, were you then required to perform
17 forced labour yourself, after your husband was detained?
18 A. I didn't go to forced labour up until the 25th of August, 1992,
19 when the children swam across the Sava River. Young men crossed the
20 Sava River, I think some 170 of them, and only us women remained, and from
21 then on, or at least I personally, we had to go to forced labour.
22 Q. You said some men had swum across the river. Was this because
23 there had been an instruction to the non-Serb men that they would have to
24 fight with the Serb army?
25 A. Yes. That night, when the young men started fleeing,
1 Sabahudin Nogic came, Idriz's son, and he brought a lot of papers, lists,
2 with the names of my son; my brother-in-law; my sister's son, Nermin; and
3 he read out their names and said they needed to report the following day
4 to the memorial hall and that from then on they would not have a work
5 obligation but would have to carry a Serb rifle. We sat in the corridor
6 thinking what to do, and the young people decided immediately that they
7 would flee across the river.
8 While sitting in the corridor, they said to my son, "Bedrudin,
9 don't go. If you go, your father will be killed, because your father is
10 in the TO." So they left without anything. I didn't know where they
11 went. And then later on, somehow we found out that they were in Croatia
12 and that they were in the area of Orasje, around Kruza [phoen], and so on.
13 They went bare handed. They swam across the river and left. We didn't
14 see them until the exchange.
15 Q. And Bedrudin stayed with you; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. After your sister's son, Nermin, and others had left, was your
18 sister, Almira, then taken to Zasavica?
19 A. Yes. She and her two children, two daughters.
20 Q. That's Bedrija and Nermina?
21 A. Yes, Bedrija and Nermina. Bedrija was pregnant. She had married
22 Goran Arapovic. He swam across the river and she remained in our house.
23 And she was taken to Zasavica just with her clothes on her back. She was
24 in a thin summer dress.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 You remained in Bosanski Samac town; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then you began to perform forced labour; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Where did you have to report to be given your tasks?
6 A. To the pensioners' hall.
7 Q. And who would assign you then your tasks for the day at the
8 Dom Penzionera?
9 A. Well, let me tell you: It depended on who picked us up and took
10 us to work.
11 Q. Was it men in military uniform?
12 A. Yes, certainly. We had to go with them.
13 Q. And were they armed?
14 A. Certainly.
15 Q. Did you have any choice about whether you went with them or not?
16 A. We had no choice whatsoever. We had to go.
17 Q. Did you have any choice in the sort of tasks that you would
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you want to go to perform those tasks?
21 A. No.
22 Q. What sort of tasks were you required to do?
23 A. Well, let me tell you: I started cleaning private homes, painting
24 them, working in them. Then I worked in the memorial hall, in the
25 municipal building, in Pisari. I remained the longest in the PIK company.
1 I worked there a lot. There was much to do there. I had to unload
2 things, clean offices, load and unload, clean the bakery, silos, and so
4 Q. When you say you had to unload things, what sort of things were
5 you unloading, and from what?
6 A. From the truck. We had to unload sacks of flour, food for
7 chickens, and so on. God knows what they loaded on. Everything that was
8 in the trucks and that had to be unloaded manually, we had to do it.
9 Q. Who would bring in the goods in these trucks? Who were the ones
10 who had put the -- had brought in the goods?
11 A. People of Serb ethnicity.
12 Q. And were they officials, people in -- either in military uniform
13 or holding official functions in the authority, or were they just private
15 A. This is how it was: The people in uniforms drove in the trucks.
16 People who worked in offices sometimes wore uniforms and sometimes they
17 had other, normal clothes, like they used to wear previously in offices.
18 So there were those who wore uniforms and those who didn't at that time.
19 Q. And you said that you were the ones who had to unload them. You,
20 being you and other people who were required to do forced labour; is that
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. And the others that you were performing forced labour with, were
24 they all of Muslim and Croat ethnicity?
25 A. Yes, Croat and Muslim.
1 Q. Did you ever see anyone of Serb ethnicity being required to
2 perform forced labour with you?
3 A. No. They simply supervised us.
4 Q. Whilst you were performing your forced labour, did you wear the
5 white armbands that you told the Chamber about?
6 A. In the beginning, we wore them; and later on, we took them off,
7 without asking anybody. And they didn't warn us about it later on.
8 Q. Whilst you were working in the PIK factory or in other locations,
9 did you ever see any of the defendants? Did you ever see Simo Zaric?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And where did you see him?
12 A. He came to see Stevan Tutnjevic, upstairs, in the offices that I
13 had cleaned and painted, together with other people that worked with me
14 there. So I painted them. I just put everything in proper order, put up
15 curtains, and so on.
16 Q. And this is in the PIK factory; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you ever see Blagoje Simic?
19 A. No. I saw him in the municipal building.
20 Q. And Miroslav Tadic, did you ever see him while you were performing
21 your forced labour?
22 A. Sometimes he would come, but he wouldn't greet us.
23 Q. When you say he would come, do you mean he would come to the PIK
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Whilst you were performing this forced labour, did you ever
2 receive payment?
3 A. We did not receive compensation and money. Sometimes they would
4 give us some flour and some bread.
5 Q. Who would give you the flour and the bread?
6 A. Just a minute, please. They used to work on the ground floor.
7 Let me just recollect. Borojevic. Borojevic issued us a paper stating
8 that we were allowed to get flour for bread. He used for work in the PIK
9 factory. I think his first name was Boro, Boro Borojevic.
10 Q. Thank you. And did this happen on a regular basis --
11 A. No, only sometimes.
12 Q. During the whole time that you performed forced labour, would you
13 say this happened once or more than once? Can you recall?
14 A. Well, let me tell you: I worked in the PIK factory for several
15 months. We received flour a couple of times in order to survive.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 Did you have to work every day once you started your forced labour
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And whilst you were performing your forced labour, were you
21 supervised by armed personnel?
22 A. No. Let me tell you: Once we entered through the gate, there was
23 a receptionist, a guard there, who was armed, but inside they didn't guard
24 us with uniforms. We had our tasks. We had to clean and do other things.
25 Q. And would you ever be accompanied by armed persons if you were
1 being taken to certain locations to perform tasks? So, for example, when
2 you went to Pisari, you mentioned.
3 A. Yes. That man always had a rifle. He was not a nice man. He
4 was -- he had bad manners and he did not have education, any education.
5 Q. And this man would accompany you, whilst armed, when you were
6 being taken to locations; is that correct?
7 A. Yes. He was constantly drunk and he was causing all kinds of
9 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions just about your own property
10 and shops and that that you ran in Bosanski Samac. Was the property from
11 your shops, first, from the establishments you ran, was that looted or
12 stolen during the period of time that you were in Bosanski Samac?
13 A. Yes. Let us begin with the Sedrvan. Sedrvan was a little bit
14 away from our house. It was a catering facility. Some things were taken
15 away and the window panes were broken. There was glass everywhere. My
16 husband was in Batkovici, and there was a man by the name of
17 Cviko Stevanovic. I didn't know him. He came to my door and he said that
18 we had to hand our property over to him before being exchanged. This man
19 by the name of Cvijetin --
20 Q. I'm going to ask you questions about this man later and his
21 seizing of your property. I was just wondering if before he came to take
22 away property, were other items belonging to you looted, anything from
23 your shops, your vehicles? Were your vehicles taken from you?
24 A. Yes. All the vehicles were requisitioned. Cera and Laki came for
25 the vehicles. When Kemal was taken to the camp, to the police station, a
1 day later, three lads came. I didn't know one of them, but I also didn't
2 know yet another one of them who had no fingers, but later on I learned
3 that his name was Laki. Cera was with him, and this man Laki asked for
4 the papers for the Renault car. He said that we had to give them
5 everything, and he even put a rifle into my son's mouth, saying that we
6 had to give them all the papers. They took the papers and took the car
8 Then Petar came and took the Skoda. As for the other two cars,
9 first they took off the licence plates and then they also took the
10 vehicles. It's really hard for me to remember everything, because you
11 can't take notes or anything. These are really hard times.
12 Q. I understand that, Mrs. Bobic.
13 So if I've understood you correctly, you had four vehicles. Two
14 of them were taken -- they came to your house and demanded papers and
15 keys, and the others were simply stolen some night?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You mentioned that your husband was transferred to Batkovici from
18 the TO building. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes. Before the winter of 1992, that's when all the cars -- I'm
20 sorry. That's when all the people were taken from the SUP building to
22 Q. And how did you learn that your husband had been taken to
24 A. I only learnt about that when I got his message, but we saw the
25 bus when it arrived. It was standing there in front of the SUP building
1 and the TO building. We didn't know why. But they took all the people
2 out of the buildings, tied their eyes with white cloth, and took them in
3 an unknown direction. We didn't know where they were until we started
4 receiving the first messages from the Red Cross, the International
5 Red Cross.
6 Q. So you witnessed the men being taken away, but at that time you
7 didn't know where; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And later you received information through the International Red
10 Cross that they were in Batkovici?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you on one occasion have an opportunity to visit your husband
13 in Batkovici?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did the man you've mentioned, Cvijetin Stevanovic bring you to
16 see your husband?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was this man Cvetijn Stevanovic from Bosanski Samac or was he from
19 a neighbouring area?
20 A. That man was not from Bosanski Samac. He was from Obudovac,
21 Pelagicevo. At that time, I didn't know where he was from until my
22 husband returned from the camp, I didn't know where he was headquartered.
23 Q. And this man, Cvetijn Stevanovic, he came and brought you to visit
24 your husband in Batkovici. Did he tell you why you were going to see your
1 A. No. At first I didn't know why we were going there. Let me tell
2 you: He married my sister's daughter by force. She had been married to a
3 person in Brcko before that. But when people were gathered up in Brcko,
4 people were taken to Loncari, and then he forced my niece to marry him,
5 and he heard from her about our property.
6 He then went to Batkovici and then came to us one day. He took
7 all the papers pertaining to our property from SUP, both mine and my
8 sister's, because we shared the same household. We two sisters were
9 married to two brothers. He picked up those papers and again came to pick
10 me up, telling me that I had to go with him to Batkovici. He then went to
11 Batkovici and asked Kemal to sign this piece of paper, indicating that all
12 the property would be transferred to him, that this all belonged to him
14 My son and myself had to load things onto his car. Then they came
15 with the cars and they took three or four days to pick everything up.
16 They took whatever took their fancy, and it turned out that he would be
17 living in our house. Kemal signed this piece of paper for him and he was
18 released. He came to Samac and said that all the property no longer
19 belonged to us; it belonged to him now. And he started taking all the
20 things that were light enough for him to carry into his car.
21 Later on, he came with the trucks from the 4th [As interpreted],
22 at least that's what I heard, from the people who were gathering the
23 stuff. I heard that the Banja Luka Corps, that was stationed in his
24 house, that they came to pick all those things up. They took everything
25 out, and it was snowing outside. It lasted three or four days. That's
1 how long it took them to carry all the things away.
2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mrs. Bobic. I think this is just a
3 question of clarification for the transcript. You said: "Later on he
4 came with the trucks from the 4th," and did you say anything after "4th"?
5 "Trucks from the 4th." We don't have anything after "4th."
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a minute. That was the
7 4th Corps, the Banja Luka Corps.
8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
9 MS. REIDY:
10 Q. Mrs. Bobic, these events happened at the end of 1994; is that
12 A. No. This happened in 1993, when I was supposed to be exchanged
13 with my family. My husband was exchanged in 1994.
14 Q. You're absolutely right, Mrs. Bobic. Sorry. I meant the end of
16 So after this man had succeeded in forcing your husband to sign
17 over his property while he was detained, were you able to stay on in
18 Bosanski Samac?
19 A. I remained there until the exchange, and I was exchanged on the
20 24th of December, 1993.
21 Q. I want to ask you some questions now for -- did you stay in your
22 own house after this man had taken away the property you described?
23 A. We stayed in our house, but we only used the business premises
24 that were downstairs and the toilet.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 Mrs. Bobic, after your property had been taken from you, did you
2 take a decision that you wanted to try to leave Bosanski Samac?
3 A. I had made that decision even earlier, but there was no
5 Q. And why had you taken that decision to try to leave
6 Bosanski Samac?
7 A. Well, let me tell you: All the Muslims and Croats who lived in
8 Bosanski Samac, we had a really hard life. Every night we expected
9 something bad to happen. We didn't have a real life because I couldn't
10 make the decision to leave Bosanski Samac, because all my property was
11 there, but I had to do it because of the hard life that we had. My son
12 was seriously ill and he had to go every day out for the work obligation.
13 And when he came back home, I didn't have any medicines to give him or any
14 way to help him.
15 Q. And when you had decided that you had to leave Bosanski Samac, who
16 did you go to see about trying to leave Bosanski Samac?
17 A. Yes. Let me tell you: I had to seek out Mr. Miro, Brko, Tadic.
18 All the small fry that I talked to were no good. I had to talk -- had to
19 find him, because he was the main man in charge of all this. He had to
20 write our names down in the book of people to be exchanged.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. REIDY: Could I just ask the usher if I could see
23 photograph 46 from Exhibit P14.
24 Q. Mrs. Bobic, let me ask you one question while we get the
25 photograph. Where did you go see Mr. Tadic?
1 A. I went in front of the municipal building, because this is how you
2 got in touch with all the important people who still held their
3 functions. It was very difficult for me to get into the municipal
4 building. Mr. Antic wouldn't let me. He was an armless man - he didn't
5 have an arm - and he stood there at the reception desk. He told me that I
6 couldn't go in without a new ID card. I only had an old, Yugoslav ID
7 card. But I did stay there, and I had the opportunity to go upstairs in
8 the municipal building. A man whom I didn't know well helped me.
9 So I went upstairs. The first contact about my exchange was with
10 Mr. -- with Dr. Blagoje Simic, who received me in his office. He treated
11 me really nice. There was first a young girl who received me and then I
12 went into his office. He asked me, "Why, ma'am, are you leaving
13 Bosanski Samac? This will pass. Everything will be fine." I told
14 him, "No. I have to go. I keep trying to treat my son. He has no
15 strength left to walk at all." And then he told me that I had to go to
16 see Miro Brko. That's where we ended our conversation.
17 He told me that Miro Brko's office was to the right of his
18 office. So I got in. I talked to him. He told me that I had to tell him
19 how many people wanted to be exchanged and I had to give him 12.000 German
20 marks for all of us and my husband to be exchanged.
21 So we made a deal, we spoke a longer period of time, and then he
22 remained in his office, I went back home. We met the next day and I gave
23 him the amount in an envelope.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 Could I just ask you to have a look at the photograph that is on
1 the ELMO beside you? Mrs. Bobic, is this the building in which you say
2 that the meetings and discussions about your exchange took place?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And in this building you met both Mr. Blagoje Simic and
5 Mr. Miroslav Tadic; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. REIDY: That's fine. I'm finished with the photograph.
9 Q. You've told us that Miroslav Tadic told you he had to give you
10 [sic] 12.000 Deutschmarks in order to be exchanged. Did he explain to you
11 why you had to pay him money?
12 A. Well, for us to be able to leave. He didn't say much. He
13 said, "If you want to leave, you have to have money. If you don't have
14 money, you cannot go."
15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Ms. Reidy. Just for the sake of the
16 record. Line 15, page 44, you actually said in your question: "You've
17 told us that Miroslav Tadic told you he had to give you 12.000
18 Deutschmarks." Maybe we should just sort of amend the record to identify
19 what perhaps you meant to say.
20 MS. REIDY: Absolutely, Your Honour. I intended to say:
21 Q. You told us that Miroslav Tadic told you that you had to give him
22 money in order to be exchanged.
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. Now, you said that you came back the next day and you gave him the
25 amount he requested. Was that also to the municipal building that you
1 pointed out in the photograph?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was it in the office or was it in front of the building?
4 A. In the corridor.
5 Q. Did Mr. Tadic give you a receipt for the money you gave him?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did he tell you any information right there and then when you
8 could expect to be exchanged or what would happen next?
9 A. Well, it was like this: We heard that there would be an exchange,
10 and since we weren't on the list, it wasn't really simple for us to put
11 our names on the list. Our children were asking for us in Orasje, and I
12 also -- also my family in Zasavica were sick and tired of everything. I'm
13 talking about my sister's children. I had to keep in touch with him for
14 us to be exchanged, because that was the last chance for us to go out.
15 So we were all sitting around talking about how we could leave. I
16 spoke to him. I asked him about my husband, Kemal, whether he would also
17 be exchanged. He said, "No problem." He would be there. A car from the
18 fire department would go and pick him up. But the day of the exchange
19 came, the 24th of December. We went out to be exchanged. I looked around
20 and saw that Kemal was not there. We came to Dragalic. He was not
21 there. Kemal was not there either.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 You gave Miroslav Tadic the money. Approximately how many days
24 after you gave him the money did you find out that you would be put on the
25 exchange list?
1 A. On the 12th of December I gave him the money, and then one, two,
2 or three days later I learned that we were under number 50, Ediba Bobic
3 and my son Bedrudin, and then number 51 was Almira Bobic, and number 52
4 was Bedrija Arapovic and the little child that was born there, or maybe it
5 was Bedrija Bobic.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters are not sure.
7 A. And the little baby who was born in Zasavica camp.
8 MS. REIDY:
9 Q. On the 12th of December, 1993, [Indiscernible] who came round with
10 the list where you saw your name, as you've said, under 50, and that of
11 your relatives under 51 and 52?
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said she gave the money on
16 the 12th of December, but she didn't say that she saw the list on that day
17 but that it was in fact later. And then the question is trying to --
18 through the question, it is trying to -- the Prosecution is trying to
19 indicate that it was on that very same day.
20 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I apologise.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
22 MS. REIDY: I didn't try to do that at all. I just wanted to make
23 clear that we were talking about December 1993. The witness had said
24 earlier -- and the witness did say this was one to three days afterwards
25 that she learnt about her relatives. So I apologise if it came across
1 that I was trying change that record. I wasn't.
2 Q. But Mrs. Bobic, my question is: Who brought round the list
3 with -- where you saw your name and that of your relatives on?
4 A. The courier. I don't know what to call that person. The
5 receptionist. That was the person that informed people about the fact
6 that they were on the list for the exchange.
7 Q. And was Kemal's name alongside yours and Bedrudin's?
8 A. No, it wasn't on that piece of paper, because we were leaving from
9 Samac, and Kemal was supposed to come from Batkovici, because that's where
10 he was at that time. He was not in Bosanski Samac, but we were hoping
11 that we would meet at Dragalic together.
12 Q. And one thing for the record. The interpreters didn't catch the
13 full name of one of your relatives. Is it Bedrija Arapovic Bobic? Is
14 that the full name of your niece?
15 A. Yes. The full name is Bedrija Bobic, Arapovic being her married
16 name. She gave birth to a daughter in Zasavica. Her husband swam across
17 the Sava River and she remained in Zasavica.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 How many days after you saw your name on the list did the exchange
20 actually occur?
21 A. Five or six days later, because we went to be exchanged on the
22 24th of December.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 Were you given instructions about what you could take with you?
25 A. Just our personal belongings.
1 Q. And where were you told that you should go on the 24th of
3 A. At 7.00 a.m. we were supposed to report to the pensioners' home.
4 The bus was supposed to come and pick us up there and drive us to be
5 exchanged in Dragalic.
6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mrs. Bobic. When you say that you
7 could just take your personal belongings with you, what does that mean?
8 Does it mean one bag, two bags? What exactly does "personal belongings"
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the clothes that could fit
11 into a bag, all the things that we could fit into a bag. We couldn't take
12 much more. You know what kinds of items are considered personal
13 belongings: Clothes, some cosmetics, and I also took pictures of my son's
14 funeral. The funeral had been -- photographs had been taken of it. I
15 didn't have the opportunity to look at it. And I took it with me.
16 And Mirko [As interpreted] checked our luggage, and when he came
17 to the photographs, asked me -- he asked me very angrily [As interpreted],
18 "Why are you taking this," and I told him, "Miro, if something like this
19 had happened to you, you would be taking photographs with you too."
20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
21 But just one clarification, Ms. Reidy. Line 18, it says "Mirko
22 checked our luggage." Can we clarify that.
23 MS. REIDY:
24 Q. The person who checked your bags --
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have another objection to the
2 interpretation. The witness said, "I responded angrily," and here on
3 page 48, line 20, it says that he was angry.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both he and I were angry.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.
6 MS. REIDY:
7 Q. And the person who checked your bag, could you just repeat his
8 name for us?
9 A. Miro Brko checked our bags.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 And you had one bag with you; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And Miro Brko, Mr. Tadic, did he check your bags when you
14 assembled at the Dom Penzionera?
15 A. Yes. We had to get into a room one by one, and he went through
16 our bags.
17 Q. Did he explain to you why he was searching your bags?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did he check the bags of Bedrudin as well?
20 A. Yes, of all of us who were there to be exchanged.
21 Q. And amongst you all who were there, what was the ethnicity? Were
22 you all Muslims and Croats?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You testified there were a number of buses that came to the
25 Dom Penzionera. Were there already some people on the buses when you
1 boarded them?
2 A. They had come from Zasavica. The other bus came from Zasavica
3 before, or in fact when we boarded the bus, the bus came from Zasavica.
4 There were the people who had been imprisoned there and also the Croats
5 who were to be exchanged.
6 Q. When you say "also the Croats who were to be exchanged," are these
7 Croats from villages in Bosanski Samac municipality?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And were these people who were taken from their villages or people
10 who had been detained in a detention unit?
11 A. The people who came on the bus were the people who were -- who had
12 been in Zasavica, who lived in Zasavica, and those who were detained in
13 Zasavica. And we were the people who lived either in our own homes or in
14 somebody else's houses, but we had a separate bus. We boarded it in front
15 of the pensioners' home building. We didn't have any contact with the
16 other bus, because we didn't board that bus.
17 Q. Now, the bus drove you, you said, eventually to Dragalic; is that
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And Dragalic is on the -- well, in Croatia, on the border, is it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you arrived at Dragalic, were there other people who were
23 there who you were to be exchanged for?
24 A. We hoped there would be an exchange. However, nobody boarded the
25 buses that went back to Bosanski Samac.
1 Q. So when you arrived at Dragalic, was there anybody there from the
2 other side to meet you or ...
3 A. No. We had to keep on waiting. We had to wait for an entry visa
4 to enter Croatia, because we didn't have papers to disembark in Croatia.
5 We had to wait there for a long time. There were thunder showers that
6 night. It wasn't very pleasant. It wasn't an exchange where people were
7 exchanged one by one. That wasn't that type of exchange.
8 Q. I'm going to come back and ask you about that, but just let me ask
9 you: When you arrived at Dragalic, was Miroslav Tadic also with you?
10 A. Yes. He was among the people escorting.
11 Q. Now, you said that it wasn't an exchange where people were
12 exchanged one by one. What happened to you? Were you exchanged for
13 anybody at all or were you just simply transferred across to Croatian
15 A. We were expelled and sent to Croatian territory. It was very
16 difficult for us in Croatia, until we came to Orasje, because we were
17 unable to remain in Croatia until we got papers from the Orasje
18 government, stating that we would be allowed to go to Domaljevac or
20 Q. So you arrived at night at Dragalic. Were you required to
21 dismount from the buses and then cross across to Croatian-held territory?
22 Is that correct?
23 A. We crossed, but it was in a bus, to the Croatian territory.
24 Q. Did you see representatives of the International Red Cross there
25 when you arrived?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were you asked, when you crossed over, whether or not you were
3 leaving Bosanski Samac of your own free will?
4 A. Nobody asked us anything.
5 Q. Did Miroslav Tadic ask you that when he was checking your bags
6 back in Bosanski Samac?
7 A. He didn't ask us anything. He was probably glad to expel us from
8 there as early as possible.
9 Q. When you arrived at Dragalic, did you in fact see Kemal there?
10 A. No. Kemal remained in Batkovici.
11 Q. When was Kemal finally exchanged?
12 A. Kemal was exchanged on the 6th of October, 1994.
13 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, that's my examination-in-chief.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: What did you say?
15 MS. REIDY: I'm sorry. I said I finished my examination-in-chief.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Cross-examination. Who is going to
17 start? Mr. Vukovic?
18 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, can I just have ten seconds to confer
19 with my client, to check --
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please. (Mr. Vukovic, not Krgovic)
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Vukovic. You will start. Yes.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Vukovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] My name is Srdjan Vukovic. I am an attorney and
25 I will be asking you a few questions on behalf of Dr. Blagoje Simic
1 regarding your testimony today, as well as your statements given to the
2 Prosecution in 1995 and in 2001.
3 You said today that a policeman came and took all of you to the
4 house of Idriz Nogic.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That happened some two days after the armed conflict. Can we
7 agree that that policeman in fact took you to some kind of a shelter?
8 A. We can agree regarding that, but I have to add that he rounded us
9 all up, and it is possible that we would fare worse if we remained in our
11 Q. So we can say that he took you there for your own personal safety
12 and security?
13 A. Yes, it is possible, or at least they also could have wanted to
14 see how many of us there were.
15 Q. Mrs. Bobic, in your statement given in 2002, in paragraph 22, you
16 stated as follows:
17 "Two days after they searched our house for weapons, a Serb
18 policeman came and told us we could not stay and that we should go to a
20 After that, in paragraph 23 of that same statement, you said as
22 "Almost all people who lived between the Spomen Dom and our house
23 were in that shelter, although some were finding shelter elsewhere."
24 So we can agree, can't we, that Serb policemen took you, for your
25 own safety, to the house of Idriz Nogic?
1 A. I think that that's how it was.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
3 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, this is now -- I've let it go one
4 question, but this is purely speculation as to the purpose of what the
5 police were doing. The witness was asked in chief: "Were you told why
6 you were being moved?" And the witness said: "No. We were given no
7 information as to why we should move out of our home."
8 So counsel can make arguments he wants, but now he's speculating,
9 I think having the witness testified that they were given a reason what
10 the reason -- the motivation of the police, and that is purely
12 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't see it that way, because counsel has been
13 referring to the statements made by the witness, and it's from those
14 statements that he's able to ask the question the way he has put it, that
15 could this be the reason.
16 MS. REIDY: Well, absolutely, Your Honour. I was hoping that's
17 exactly what would happen, because that's why when he quoted from a
18 statement, I would see -- thought he might get there, but he didn't. His
19 question is --
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Anyway, Ms. Reidy, I don't see anything wrong with
21 the cross-examination. The counsel will proceed.
22 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I would
23 just like to clarify this. I quoted what the witness stated in
24 paragraph 22, in her statement given to the Prosecution in May of 2002.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes --
1 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said as follows --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Just go ahead with your cross-examination.
3 MR. VUKOVIC: Thank you.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Bobic, in the same statement, in the same
5 paragraph, you went on to say that on that night, when you were taken to
6 Idriz Nogic's house, there was shelling. Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us: Where were the shells coming from? Where was
9 the town shelled from?
10 A. I couldn't tell you that. We were in the basement. We just heard
11 that tanks were rumbling down our street, and we couldn't see anything
12 from the basement, because one just couldn't see anything.
13 Q. And did you perhaps learn of this on another day, on the following
14 day, during the time you remained in Samac?
15 A. I didn't learn anything.
16 Q. Can you tell us how frequent was the shelling of Samac?
17 A. It lasted a long time.
18 Q. Can you tell us approximately? Was it once a week? Twice a
19 week? During what period of time? Was it in 1992 or in 1993?
20 A. Let me tell you: Both in 1992 and in 1993, and then I was
21 exchanged, and then 1994 and 1995 is when I travelled further on. But all
22 the way up until that time, there was shelling going on, but I was so
23 scared that I couldn't really try to retain the information on when that
24 happened. I lost all count of time after February 14th, and now I live
25 because I have to.
1 Q. But we can agree that the town of Samac was constantly shelled?
2 A. No, it wasn't constantly shelled, but we lived in great fear. We
3 weren't only afraid of shells. We were also afraid of people.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 I would like to ask you something else. You stated that your son,
6 Bedrudin, had work obligation and that he had, among other things, to dig
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then today you said that he would tell you every evening where
10 he spent his day, performing which tasks?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber: Where did your son dig
14 A. He dug trenches in the direction of Grebnice, because Grebnice
15 were called death graves or graveyards [As interpreted], because we knew
16 how dangerous that situation was. We knew that they took our children to
17 go and dig those trenches.
18 Q. All I wanted to learn was where did he go to dig trenches. In
19 addition to Grebnice, did he go elsewhere?
20 A. No, because after he became sick, he was transferred to lighter
22 Q. Can you tell me: Why were the trenches dug around Grebnice?
23 A. Serb soldiers would be able to answer that. I don't know.
24 Q. Did your son, by any chance, tell you whether there was an
25 exchange of fire while he was digging trenches as part of his work
2 A. Let me tell you: The first fire that was opened and that he
3 witnessed was by Mile Pancir.
4 Q. Madam, no. I'm interested in the lines of separation. Was there
5 any fire exchange there?
6 A. He didn't tell me about that.
7 Q. In your statement given to the Prosecution in 1995, you stated
8 that one of the shells fell on your house.
9 A. Yes. It fell on the summer kitchen.
10 Q. And when was that? What month was it? What year?
11 A. It was in 1992. But as to the rest, I can't tell you which month
12 it was. I don't know whether Kemal was already arrested then or not.
13 Q. Madam Bobic, in your statement, you said that when you went to the
14 SUP building, you were greeted by Savo, who was killed later on.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was Savo killed by a shell?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you tell us when that happened?
19 A. I can't give you any dates, but let me tell you this: He was a
20 wonderful man.
21 Q. Madam, can you just give us the year?
22 A. 1992. He was killed by the well, where there used to be a mosque,
23 near the main road, by the department store.
24 Q. So we will agree that it's basically the centre of Bosanski Samac,
1 A. Well, yes. It was in Pere Bosica Street.
2 Q. In your statement given to the Prosecutor in 2002, you stated that
3 some men who were in the house of Idriz Nogic had to carry sandbags as
4 part of their work obligation.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can we agree that these sandbags are used to protect the buildings
7 and windows from shelling?
8 A. Yes. That's what I stated.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 Mrs. Bobic, you said that as part of your work obligation you went
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber where you went, to
14 which location.
15 A. It was somewhere in Odzak municipality. I couldn't tell you which
16 field it was and who was the owner. We simply went there to pick plums
17 and load them. We were then escorted by a young man, Despic. We had to
18 pick plums all day long, from morning until night.
19 Q. Did you hear, by any chance, whether there was any shelling there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 In your statement given to the Prosecution, you said that you saw
23 Mr. Blagoje Simic in the municipal building when you went to ask that your
24 husband be released from prison?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Tell us: When was that?
2 A. This is how it was: It was on the 11th of December of 1993. ^can
3 you tell us: In which office did you see Mr. Simic in the municipal
5 Q. Can you tell us in which office did you see Mr. Simic in the
6 municipal building?
7 A. I saw him in the office where municipal presidency was, on the
8 right-hand side, last door. There was a very nice young lady there who
9 allowed me to go and see this gentleman.
10 Q. Was that the only time when you saw Mr. Simic in the municipal
12 A. No. This is why I went to the municipal building. I asked to go
13 to be exchanged, then I went to see him again.
14 Q. Can you tell me: How was Mr. Simic dressed on that occasion?
15 A. He did not wear a uniform.
16 Q. How did he look? Did he have a beard?
17 A. No, he didn't have a beard, and he was just as always, very
19 Q. Mrs. Bobic, you gave a statement to the Prosecution on the 14th of
20 February, 1995.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In that statement, you never mentioned seeing Mr. Blagoje Simic?
23 A. I contacted Mr. Simic in his office. I don't know whether there
24 was a mistake in translation. I can't tell you about that.
25 Q. Madam, all I'm saying is that in your statement given to the
1 Prosecution in 1995, you never mentioned seeing Mr. Simic?
2 A. I did see Mr. Simic, and Mr. Simic must remember me, because he
3 knows me well. My husband played chess with his family. We were not very
4 close friends, but we knew each other well.
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mrs. Bobic, is it possible that we are talking about
8 Mr. Milan Simic?
9 A. No. Milan Simic was in a wheelchair at that time. He was in
11 Q. And can you tell me, please: Who did your husband play chess
13 A. With Milan's father, Vojin Simic.
14 Q. Thank you, madam.
15 I have to ask you something else, and please don't take me wrong.
16 In your statement given to the Prosecution, both in 1995 and in 2002, you
17 stated that your son was a member of the organisation called MOS, M-O-S,
18 which stands for Muslim Youth Party?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber what is MOS.
21 A. Let me tell you: I think that MOS was there to associate young
22 people in a religious way, so that young people would know who they were
23 religiouswise, so they would know that they were of Muslim faith. Because
24 at that time, young people didn't know what faith they had. They were
25 really not going to mosques and so on, so this organisation served to
1 associate them religiously.
2 Q. Let me put you another short question regarding that. Was MOS the
3 wing of the SDA, the youth wing of that party?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Tell us, please: After the shelling of Samac, which took place
6 two days after the 17th, was there electricity and water in town?
7 A. No. For a while we had both electricity and water, and then later
8 on it was cut off and we didn't have any of that.
9 Q. And can we agree that that lasted for quite a while?
10 A. Yes, quite a while.
11 Q. Can we also agree that all residents of Samac were without
12 electricity and water?
13 A. Yes, all of them.
14 Q. Can we also agree that there were food shortages as well?
15 A. Let me tell you: Everybody had humanitarian aid except for us
16 Muslims. It didn't come our way because we were not called when the
17 humanitarian aid was distributed. We knew that it had arrived, because
18 our people were unloading it, but nobody called us when they were
19 distributing that food.
20 Q. You stated here before this Trial Chamber, and also in your
21 statements, that your property was seized?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you clarified in which manner?
24 A. Yes, but also our cafe or shop was destroyed, and you didn't ask
25 me about that. It was destroyed after I was exchanged, some year or two
1 after that.
2 Q. Very well.
3 Let me ask you: What is the status of your property now?
4 A. The shop was destroyed. The property was literally returned to us
5 but is in such a condition that we could not move in. One would have to
6 invest a lot of money in order to be able to move in, because there's no
7 bathroom or anything else there.
8 Q. Yes, but, Mrs. Bobic, we will agree that you stated yourself that
9 a shell had fallen on your house?
10 A. No . I said that there was one shell that landed on the summer
11 kitchen, but my house was so strong that a cannon would be unable to
12 destroy it. It was a brick house, a three-storey house, so nothing could
13 destroy that.
14 Q. Mrs. Bobic, you just told us that the property had been returned
15 to you, legally?
16 A. Not all of it.
17 Q. So the real estate that was in your name was returned?
18 A. The house was returned, and some other things are to be returned
20 Q. But all of this is under way, the process is under way?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we ask for a break,
23 Your Honours, ten-minute break?
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Why do you want a break? We shall have a break at
2 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to Your Honours, but we
3 have no further questions for this witness.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
5 The next counsel?
6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Madam Ediba.
9 A. Good day.
10 Q. My name is Borislav Pisarevic. I'm an attorney from Samac, and I
11 am the Defence counsel for Mr. Simo Zaric. Before I ask any questions, I
12 would like to extend to you, on behalf of Mr. Simo Zaric, his sincere
13 regret for everything that your family and yourself have been through in
14 those retched events in the former Yugoslavia, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and
15 in our own town of Samac.
16 I'm going to ask you just a couple of questions. I would kindly
17 ask you to try and answer the questions with yes or no, or if you don't
18 know the answer, please say so. If you have failed to understand the
19 question, please say so and I will repeat it. My questions will mainly
20 pertain to the period up until the 17th of April, 1992, that is, up until
21 the time when the conflict broke out in the town of Bosanski Samac. I
22 would like to make sure that you understood me quite well as to the topic
23 of our conversation.
24 Did you understand me properly?
25 A. Yes, I did I understand, but I can answer all of your questions,
1 but only about the events up until the 14th of February, because after
2 that period -- after that date, I have to tell you that I wouldn't be able
3 to tell you anything, because that was after the death of my son.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 Since you've already stated in the course of your testimony that
6 you do know about the existence of the 4th Detachment, can you confirm the
7 fact that the establishment of the 4th Detachment was a public affair,
8 that the 4th Detachment -- the establishment of the 4th Detachment was
9 broadcast over the radio and also in the media? How do you know about the
10 existence of the 4th Detachment?
11 A. I didn't hear it over the radio, but I worked in an area where one
12 could learn a lot. You, Boro, you know it yourself, and so does my
13 neighbour, Mr. Simo Zaric. You were making the 4th Detachment composed of
14 the Serbs and the Muslims.
15 Q. Let's take it slowly. I'll be asking you questions about that
17 So it was no secret that the 4th Detachment was established in
18 Bosanski Samac, I mean the 4th Detachment of the Yugoslav People's Army?
19 A. The 4th Detachment was not a part of the Yugoslav People's Army.
20 Q. So you claim that the 4th Detachment was not part of the
21 Yugoslav People's Army?
22 A. Just a minute. It was part of it, but in Bosanski Samac there
23 were no people from Yugoslavia in the 4th Detachment. They were only
24 people from Bosanski Samac.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we take a break?
1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll take a break for 20 minutes and resume at
4 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. Cross-examination continuing.
7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Mrs. Bobic, are you aware of the fact that in the 4th Detachment
9 there were representatives of all the ethnic communities, I mean Serbs,
10 Muslims, Croats, and other ethnic communities that lived in the town of
12 A. In the 4th Detachment there were, first of all, the Yugoslav
13 People's Army that had come with their vehicles, and the people who had
14 been transported to Bosanski Samac, because they walked around the town,
15 they were in those units. I'm sure that Mr. Simo Zaric had brought them
17 Q. I'm sorry, ma'am. I have to interrupt you. We're talking about
18 the period up to the 17th of April.
19 A. Yes, up until the 17th of April, because they were moving around
20 even before that date.
21 Q. My question to you was: Who were the members of the
22 4th Detachment, and what were their ethnic backgrounds?
23 A. Well, it was well known. They were Muslims and Serbs. I don't
24 know whether there were any Croats or not.
25 Q. You now mentioned the Yugoslav People's Army.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I have to ask you whether you know that in the municipalities of
3 Samac, Pelagicevo, Brcko, Gradacac, there was the 17th Tactical Group of
4 the Yugoslav People's Army that had been established.
5 A. Well, please don't ask me that, because I don't know about that.
6 But I do know who was walking around Samac, and I do know who was inducted
7 into the 4th Corps by Simo Zaric.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 So to conclude: You do not know that the 17th Tactical Group of
10 the Yugoslav People's Army was formed in Samac, Pelagicevo, Brcko,
12 A. I don't know that, but I do know that there were troops around,
13 and they entered Samac.
14 Q. Do you know who Radovan Antic was?
15 A. Radovan Antic was a teacher in the school, and he worked in the
16 staff, I guess.
17 Q. Do you know that Radovan Antic was the commander of the
18 4th Detachment?
19 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I don't know. I would like to
20 apologise. I don't think I could talk about this topic at all.
21 Q. Do you remember that Mr. Zaric, together with Vlado Sarkanovic;
22 Milos Simandic [phoen]; Djordje Pisarevic, nicknamed Ruka; and Mihalj
23 Topolovac; on the night when your son tragically died, that he came and
24 expressed his sympathies to you and your family?
25 A. Yes, I do remember that.
1 Q. Can you confirm the fact that at your son's funeral there was a
2 large number of inhabitants of the town of Samac of Serb, Muslim, and
3 other ethnicities, that lived in Samac?
4 A. Well, let me tell you: I didn't attend my son's funeral, but I
5 did notice a lot of things from the photographs. But Simo Zaric was my
6 neighbour. He was not on any of the pictures anywhere near.
7 Q. Let's take it slowly.
8 Do you know that a citizens' rally was held in the cinema hall in
9 Samac following this event when this tragic event was discussed and the
10 events in Bosanski Samac as a whole?
11 A. Well, I couldn't tell you that, because I know only about the
12 things that happened until the 14th of February. Everybody knows that I
13 was in my home after that and that doctors came to give me shots every day
14 in the morning and in the afternoon, so I wouldn't really know what was
15 going on.
16 Q. All right.
17 You mentioned that you had your work obligation in the PIK
18 factory, that's the agri business complex.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you tell us and confirm the fact that the manager of that
21 company was Stevan Tutnjevic, nicknamed Stona [phoen]?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you confirm the fact that you worked there in 1993?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you confirm the fact that at that time you saw Mr. Zaric on
1 one occasion going to see the manager, Stevan Tutnjevic?
2 A. Yes, certainly.
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Bobic. My name is
9 Novak Lukic. I'm an attorney, and I'm the Defence counsel for
10 Mr. Miroslav Tadic. I will be conducting my cross-examination on his
11 behalf. I believe that I will take some more time than my colleagues.
12 I will first be asking you about some general facts and then some
13 more specific questions pertaining to my client, and I would also like to
14 ask you some questions relating to your credibility as a witness. I will
15 also, like my colleagues, ask you to answer my questions very briefly. If
16 you want to clarify a point pertaining to my questions, we can leave that
17 to the Prosecutor, who can then ask the questions in re-direct.
18 I keep being cautioned by the Trial Chamber and by the
19 interpreters that I speak too fast, and in order to avoid the overlapping
20 of my questions and your answers, I would kindly ask you to make a pause
21 before answering, because my question has to be interpreted for the
22 benefit of the Trial Chamber, and if you start speaking too fast, then it
23 is not -- everything is not interpreted.
24 I want to clarify one thing: You talked to the representatives of
25 the Office of the Prosecutor twice, as far as I know. Do you remember
1 that you spoke to the representatives of the Prosecution for the first
2 time in February 1995?
3 A. Yes, on the 14th of February.
4 Q. It obviously is a very important date in your life?
5 A. Yes, a very difficult one.
6 Q. The first interview that you had with the Prosecution was on the
7 anniversary of your son's death?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. On that occasion, you were given the statement that you gave to
10 the Prosecution for signature. Do you remember that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The second time that you spoke to the representatives of the
13 Office of the Prosecutor was on the 18th and the 20th of May this year.
14 My learned colleague Ms. Reidy spoke to you on that occasion?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You did not sign that statement, but as far as I understand, when
17 you arrived here in The Hague, you went through the statement in detail
18 with the Prosecution and you stand by what you said there?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I don't want to ask you any questions about the death of your
21 son. We did discuss this at length before this Trial Chamber. From what
22 I could see, his girlfriend was a Serb. This is what it says in the
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What was her name?
1 A. Gordana Pavlovic.
2 Q. Does she still live in Samac? Do you know that?
3 A. Yes. I have to tell you: They were dating. They were supposed
4 to get married, because Gordana Arapovic and Bedrija got married after
5 this event. They had to get married -- I still don't know what happened
6 that day.
7 Q. I really don't want to go into that. Do you know that the accused
8 Miroslav Tadic had a son whose name is also Miroslav Tadic and that he was
9 on friendly terms -- he was a good friend of both your sons?
10 A. Yes. He was a nice lad. He was friendly both with me and my
11 husband and my sons.
12 Q. Yes, but he was friends with your son because they were of the
13 same generation?
14 A. I don't know whether they were of the same generation, but they
15 were good friends.
16 Q. Now, to clarify some events a bit more, I would like to ask that
17 the witness --
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honour. I have a
19 copy of the map that we already used, that's D27/3, and I would like that
20 to be placed in front of the witness for her to mark -- to make some
21 markings there. I'm interested in three buildings: The house of the
22 witness; the Nogics' house, where they took shelter; and where their cafe
23 was. This is a clean copy, without any markings.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not really very good with maps.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Well, if you can find your way around this map, then please do
2 show me, but if not, we will not be dwelling upon this. So could you
3 please explain to the Trial Chamber where your house was.
4 A. Just a minute. I don't know whether this is the main street, or
5 is this the street running parallel to the Sava River? Could you please
6 assist me with that? I really couldn't tell you.
7 Q. Well, we will not, then, do anything with this map.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
9 A. Yes. I'm really sorry.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will not be insisting on that.
11 Q. Your husband will be testifying next, and I believe that he will
12 be able to do so, to assist us.
13 At any rate, my question to you is the following: You said that
14 you lived in Ivo Lola Ribar Street?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is this street in the immediate vicinity of the Sava River, or in
17 other words, is it the second street parallel to the main street, which is
18 parallel to -- which is located where the SUP and TO are?
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. Thank you. And where was your hamburger stand?
21 A. From the crossroads, from the Spomen Dom or the memorial hall, it
22 was to the left or the front of the school where children played
23 football. At the entrance -- across the road from the entrance to the
25 Q. So we could say that it was in front of the elementary school and
1 the secondary school?
2 A. Yes, in that street.
3 Q. Well, the Trial Chamber is quite familiar with where these two
4 buildings are.
5 You already answered questions asked by my colleague Mr. Vukovic
6 regarding your accommodation in the house belonging to Mr. Nogic. Do you
7 know that in the immediate vicinity of that house, there was the house of
8 the goldsmith, Paroli [phoen], where people were also housed, as in a
10 A. It was in another street.
11 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the shelters were marked with
12 arrows pointing to them at that time in Samac?
13 A. Well, the building where we were was not marked, because it was
14 not a proper shelter; it was just a basement.
15 Q. But you stated today that you returned to your home of your own
16 free will and that you took shelter below the stairs when the shelling was
17 going on?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. On page 12/12 of the transcript, I will now move on to another
20 topic, the events after the 17th of April - so today you stated - that's
21 line 12, page 12 - you said:
22 "During the first days, we felt that we could not go out."
23 I wanted to ask you about this term "felt." Did somebody order
24 you not to go out or did you yourself decide not to go out?
25 A. No, we did not decide, but the moment when the first shell fell in
1 front of the SUP building, we no longer went out. We weren't moving
3 Q. Yes. That's the way I understood it.
4 You also described -- we heard your description of the events in
5 the night between the 16th and the 17th of April. Do you remember whether
6 your husband went out into the yard or into the street that night?
7 A. Well, this is how it was: My house has two entrances, the
8 entrance and the exit from the yard. I went into the yard because I heard
9 some people walking there, but I didn't hear any voices. So I opened the
10 door and turned on the light, and one of them said, "I'll shoot. Turn off
11 the light." I don't know who it was, because there was a lot of panic at
12 that time. When a shot was fired, there was a very strong explosion, in
13 fact. So I don't know whether he went to the other side, because our --
14 the corridor in our house was 18 metres long. We couldn't see each other
15 in the dark. So I don't know whether he went out on the other side.
16 Q. You mentioned in your testimony, responding to questions asked by
17 the Prosecution, that Savo, the police officer, told you that Kemal was
18 detained there in the SUP. Is that correct? Do you remember that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was this Savo Savic, the man who was a police officer even before
21 the war?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That was after your husband was detained?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mrs. Bobic, I have information that Savo Savic was killed on the
1 17th of April, 1992. Do you have that information too? Would you agree
2 with me?
3 A. I don't know the date of his death. I do know that he helped me
4 to get in touch with Kemal. That's when Kemal told me to go home. I
5 think it was him. It wasn't anyone else. I remember his face quite
7 Q. All right. Now I will ask you a few questions. We also heard
8 about the distribution of the humanitarian aid. You said that in the
9 first few days you did receive some humanitarian aid.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Let me ask you: Did you consider yourself to be quite well off in
12 relation to other families in Samac, taking into account the kind of
13 income that you had at your disposal, or were you among the poorer
15 A. Let me tell you: I never made any difference as to who I
16 socialised with, which people they belonged to, but at that time, when
17 they distributed milk, we all got out. And I don't know why we couldn't
18 get any food later on.
19 Q. Do you know that later on, when major shortages of food started
20 occurring, that humanitarian aid was distributed only to those citizens
21 who did not have any income or who had very low income?
22 A. Well, let me tell me: It was the fact that many people got things
23 from various places. I was excluded from these groups. I don't know why
24 it was, whether we were members of the SDA or whether we had more
25 property. I don't know.
1 Q. Do you know that your neighbours, Muslims and Croats, did receive
2 humanitarian aid?
3 A. It's possible that they received it on one occasion.
4 Q. When was that?
5 A. I really couldn't tell you the date, whether it was in 1992 or
6 1993, but I do know that on one occasion the humanitarian aid came and
7 they said that somebody from an Islamic community sent it.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have document D44/3 shown
9 to the witness. [In English] Put it on the ELMO, please.
10 Q. [Interpretation] We will put it on the ELMO so you can look at it
11 both on your screen or you can look at it directly. Mrs. Bobic, do you
12 see the date here in the top part of this document? Please have a look at
14 A. 1992. I know that this didn't happen then.
15 Q. Do you know that in May 1992, that the town of Samac was divided
16 into quarters or neighbourhoods and that this is how the food was
18 A. It didn't come to our quarter or neighbourhood.
19 Q. Could you please check whether there are any Muslims and Croats on
20 this list. Do you maybe know anyone?
21 A. I couldn't really tell you.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown
23 document D45/3.
24 Q. Please take a look at this document, Mrs. Bobic. It is dated 18th
25 of August, 1992, as far as I can tell.
1 A. I don't know. We didn't experience this. We did not receive any
3 Q. Do you know any of the people on this list? They are your fellow
4 citizens. There are Muslims and Croats here.
5 A. Well, there are names here of people that I know, but I don't know
6 whether they received any aid.
7 Q. Did any of these people live in your vicinity?
8 A. Well, Dzakic Mujo lived nearby, but I don't know whether he
9 received aid. These are people that resided in Samac, but I don't know
10 whether they ever received any aid. I really don't know.
11 Q. Do you know that the warehouse of the Red Cross in Bosanski Samac
12 municipality was located in the house of Irfan Jakupovic, which is near
13 your house? Do you know about that?
14 A. No. I know that there was a warehouse in the old hotel. This is
15 where we loaded and unloaded the goods.
16 Q. I asked you about the warehouse of the Red Cross.
17 A. Yes. The Red Cross. In 1992 there was no Red Cross in my street.
18 Q. But you knew Irfo Jakupovic?
19 A. Yes, of course I did. He's the father of Dario.
20 Q. And he's a Muslim?
21 A. Yes. And he perished too?
22 Q. Thank you. Do you, Mrs. Bobic, know that somebody who dug
23 trenches in Grebnice was killed while digging them in Grebnice?
24 A. I don't know anything about that. I can't go back to those years.
25 It's very difficult for me.
1 Q. Since you spent almost two years in Samac after the war broke out,
2 do you know that over 400 people, somebody's sons were killed in combat
3 near Samac?
4 A. Yes, I heard that. Sons of some of the people that I socialised
5 with were killed.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... just a minute.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Today you described to us how you saw your
8 husband when he went to the well, artesian well, and you described what
9 condition he was in.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In your 1995 statement, on page 3 of the B/C/S version, which
12 is -- let me just assist my learned friends from the Prosecution -- page
13 00258169 of the English version, you said as follows:
14 "Once I saw my husband at the time when he was detained at the TO.
15 It happened when I visited Fatima, who lived in an apartment next to the
16 TO. From her balcony, I could see down into the yard of the TO. I saw my
17 husband in the yard of the TO. I could see that he was completely
18 bruised. I could see his haircut was cut short. We waved to each other."
19 Do you remember stating this in 1995?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did it happen exactly as you described it?
22 A. Yes. It was even worse.
23 Q. So you saw him and you waved to each other?
24 A. Let me tell you: When I was on Fatima's balcony, they were all
25 walking in a circle. I waved to him. Now, whether he recognised me or
1 not, I don't know. We just waved to each other. Everybody raised their
2 hands when they saw us there. It was close. It was on the third floor,
3 and he was in the TO yard. So we weren't that close, and we couldn't see
4 each other that well.
5 Q. Well, did you see your husband?
6 A. Yes. I recognised his body build, because he's a very large man
7 to this day.
8 Q. When you talked to the Prosecutor this year, you said, in
9 paragraph 42, regarding that same event, as follows:
10 "I saw a large number of prisoners walking in a circle. They had
11 shaven heads. I couldn't see whether Kemal was among them. I cried and
12 my hat fell off. That was before I saw Kemal at the artesian well."
13 A. I'm sorry, but that is completely wrong statement. First of all,
14 I didn't have high blood -- high sugar blood level. I saw him from
15 Fatima's balcony because they were all walking in a circle. They were
16 with short hair, some of them had beards, some didn't. Everybody waved
17 and he waved too. I saw that it was somebody that looked like him.
18 Q. This statement was read out to you this year --
19 A. Your Honours, I'm telling you everything that I saw from Fatima's
20 balcony. I'm not lying at all. I don't like lying. I'm telling the
21 truth. And everything that I experienced I'm telling you about now. I
22 went to Fatima's apartment and I stood there waiting for the people to
23 come out for a walk. I looked there. All of them were circling, walking
24 in a circle. I waved. All of them waved back. They looked at me. And
25 among them I recognised my husband, who was in the TO, walking with them
1 in a circle.
2 Q. So what is stated in this statement given in May of 2002 is not
4 A. Well, I couldn't tell you that. I didn't quite understand your
5 question. I'm telling you how it was. I'm giving you my account of what
6 I had experienced. I'm not trying at all to cheat you or the other side.
7 I'm telling you about what I had experienced.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
9 MS. REIDY: Thank you. I'm making an intervention for the sake of
10 the record, because there's -- I thought this might be clarified, but this
11 is a strange phrase, which I don't think Mr. Lukic meant to say. First
12 line of page 78. In the English, it reads: "I cried and my head fell
13 off." I don't know if that's what Mr. Lukic read out, but my -- the
14 statement is that, you know, I was crying and my sugar blood level was
15 low." And the witness has again talked about her blood levels. I think
16 she knows what she was talking about. It may be in the translation, the
17 phrase "my head fell off" came across instead of something else.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, we don't dwell on this topic,
20 but in B/C/S version, in paragraph 42, it says:
21 "I cried. My sugar blood level was low," and in the English it
22 says the same.
23 MS. REIDY: It says "my head fell off."
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Anyway, it's been corrected. Can you move on,
25 Mr. Lukic?
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. All right, Mrs. Bobic. We will now turn to another topic. And
3 I'm interested now in something that can be found in your statement given
4 on the 18th and 22nd of May, 2002, which we did not touch upon today, and
5 that pertains to your trip to Zasavica, paragraph 45. You described in
6 detail how the trucks came, how your niece, who was pregnant, at the time,
7 was put in a truck and you went on to say as follows:
8 "They came in a truck to the house and forced all of us to go. My
9 niece was in a dress and the others were rounded up in the street. I got
10 off the truck. I didn't want to leave the house and I wanted to wait for
11 my son to come back from forced labour."
12 Do you remember stating that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So that's what I would like to clarify. You got on the truck and
15 then you decided to get off?
16 A. Yes, I decided on my own.
17 Q. And nobody prevented you from doing that?
18 A. Well, there was nobody there. These people went into another
19 yard, so I got off the truck with my things, and I came into the house in
20 order to wait for my son.
21 Q. And that was in August of 1992?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And from that August of 1992 until December of 1993, nobody force
24 forced you to go to Zasavica; is that right?
25 A. Nobody came looking for me. I remained there. I went to perform
1 my work obligation, and I can't tell you how I managed to get out of that
3 Q. May I continue, Mrs. Bobic?
4 A. If you're not going to take very long. If it's going to be very
5 long, then I would like to have a break.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. How much time do you need? If you
7 can reorganise. You know that the witness is quite stressed, so let's
8 move on.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to cover the exchanges and so
10 on. But before that I would like to ask the witness a few questions
11 regarding her credibility, because that's quite an interesting topic for
13 Q. Mrs. Bobic, I read for the first time, in your May 2002 statement,
14 in paragraph 83, how you described your attempts to have your property
15 returned to you, and you said that you went to Pelagicevo a few times to
16 see how you could get your property returned:
17 "When I went on the fourth occasion, I was told that I couldn't
18 walk around, and why should I come to a Serb town? I was arrested.."
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you please tell us what exactly happened there?
21 A. This is how it was: After we left Bosanski Samac --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, yes.
23 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'd like -- this happened, I believe, in
24 1999, well after the indictment period or anything here. I'd like
25 Mr. Lukic to explain how it can be relevant to her credibility issue. It
1 was put in the statement as a matter of completion, but I don't see how it
2 affects her credibility. I mean, it happened in 1999.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for me this is of
5 extreme importance, because upon reading this, I, through my
6 investigators, conducted some verifications and learned about what had
7 actually happened there, and it has to do with the personality of this
8 witness in that incident. It is very important for me to check out these
9 allegations about what happened in 1999 and to confront the witness with
10 information that I acquired. Perhaps I could go immediately to that.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps you can be very brief, because a lot
12 of time has passed and issues of credibility do also affect the time
13 period when incidents which are being raised happened. Yes. We are
14 discussing 1992 --
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree --
16 JUDGE MUMBA: -- Incidents here.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but with Witness Lukac, we
18 confronted him with an interview of -- he gave a year ago, and it had to
19 do with his credibility. And this is something that applies to this
20 witness as well. All I want to show is that this is a very
21 confrontational person.
22 Q. Mrs. Bobic, very briefly: On the 5th of July, 1999, in the
23 premises of the police station in Pelagicevo and in the premises of the
24 international police, did you attack the official policemen and tear
25 official documents? Yes or no?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you, in the presence of the representative of the
3 international police, insult policemen who wanted to take you to a
4 misdemeanor judge for disturbing public order? Yes or no?
5 A. No. Can you please allow me to clarify?
6 Q. You could do that when the Prosecutor conducts the re-direct.
7 Did you at that time state: "I am Bosnian and all of you will be
8 Bosniaks in a year or else you will perish." Yes or no?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you, after that, go to the misdemeanour judge, or was there
11 misdemeanour proceedings initiating due disturbance of public law and
13 A. No.
14 Q. Was there a judicial warning issued to you after that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you, after that, put up resistance to the Pelagicevo police
17 and the international police?
18 A. No, I did not put up resistance. I didn't speak the language, and
19 the gentlemen did what they wanted. I didn't speak the language and I
20 couldn't explain in English to ask them what they wanted from me. They
21 put handcuffs on me, and I have scars to this day. I also have doctors'
22 reports concerning this. I simply wanted to go, to attend proceedings in
23 Pelagicevo, where a document exempting or confiscating my property was
24 discussed. That person who confiscated my property took it to his house,
25 and my husband will bring this document to you. I had to go to Pelagicevo
1 to meet the IPTF people and to state to them who confiscated my property.
2 They gave me two policemen to escort me to go to this man's house so that
3 he could say whether he confiscated our property and possibly returned it.
4 In the meantime, they put handcuffs on my hands and they wouldn't let me
5 move about as I wanted.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic --
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mrs. Bobic, you said that you went to see the doctor --
9 JUDGE MUMBA: I hope had you have moved away from this topic,
10 because one can see it was in the process of trying to recover her
11 property, and obviously a lot of misunderstandings could have arisen, so
12 that we don't need to go into this any further.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't go on. I need a break.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all I'm trying to do is
15 to clarify the purpose of my questions. I was unable to acquire these
16 documents, but my investigator checked the record that exists in the
17 Court. According to that court record, this witness stated or said to the
18 policemen that they will see what kind of fate will befall them. It is
19 very important for me to check the credibility of this witness, which I
20 think is one of the basic rights pursuant to Rule 90.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but I think this particular event is too
22 extraneous to the proceedings. And the witness said she needed a break.
23 Maybe we can break for ten minutes.
24 We'll rise for ten minutes to allow the witness to recover.
25 --- Break taken at 1.07 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 1.18 p.m.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. You can continue.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mrs. Bobic, I will put questions about the exchange, but before I
5 do that, let me ask you something else relating to another incident and to
6 your credibility. You can just give me a yes-or-no answer. Were you,
7 Mrs. Bobic, convicted of the criminal offence of bodily injury because you
8 wounded your brother's husband [As interpreted] with a knife in your kebab
10 MS. REIDY: Your Honour --
11 JUDGE MUMBA: What time?
12 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have information that that was in
15 Q. Just tell me, yes or no --
16 JUDGE LINDHOLM: There's some confusion in transcript, because you
17 wounded your brother's husband." Who was wounded?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me just clarify. There's a
19 mistake in the transcript. I have information that this took place in
20 1987 and that this witness, Bobic, Ediba, wounded, in the stomach, her
21 husband's brother, in her restaurant. So she was the perpetrator of that
23 Q. Just reply with a yes or no.
24 A. Well, let me tell you, now that you are bringing this year up:
25 This took place while we worked. We did not have an argument, and that
1 did take place. We did not have an argument. I was simply there holding
2 a knife, and then I suddenly turned around and that happened. I know why
3 you are bringing this up. I'm not a criminal. I'm not a criminal of the
4 type of those who are right here today, so don't bring this up. Let's
5 analyse who did what, and if you are going to bring this up, then I will
6 witnesses and papers. I am a witness here and I am testifying about
7 things that you are asking about or the Judges are asking me about. I've
8 answering questions from the 17th of April up until today, and not that
9 happened a hundred years ago.
10 Q. Please tell me whether you were convicted criminally.
11 A. No, I was not criminally convicted.
12 Q. Thank you. Now we will turn to the exchange. You talked about
13 that on two occasions today. Let us first clarify certain things
14 regarding the time when you applied to be exchanged. You told us at the
15 time that Mr. Tadic was in charge of the exchange. Do you remember where
16 it was that people went to apply for the exchange?
17 A. I don't know where people went to apply. I was unable to apply to
18 be exchanged. I had to look for Miro, Brko, in order to establish some
19 contacts to be exchanged.
20 Q. You claim that you did not apply with anybody to be exchanged.
21 A. I did apply. I did apply. But all of us had to personally beg
22 Mr. Miro Brko to be exchanged. You are wrong, sir. You don't know what I
23 experienced. All you know is what you need.
24 Q. I'm asking the Judges to assist me. I'm putting very specific
25 questions and I need a yes-or-no answer. Did you, madam, go to apply and
1 put your name down with the Red Cross to be exchanged? Yes or no.
2 A. Yes, of course I went.
3 Q. That's all I care about. Please tell me: Where did you go?
4 Where were the offices of the Red Cross? Where did you go to apply to put
5 your name down?
6 A. It was in the old hotel, upstairs.
7 Q. Do you remember, when you went to put your name down for exchange,
8 you and your family and your son and your sister, with her family, that
9 you had to give information of the person who was your guarantor? Is that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember giving to the Red Cross information that your
13 guarantor was Calic Zekija from Orasje, Omladinska Street?
14 A. Those were the exchanges in 1992. We are not allowed to leave in
15 1992, and it was my husband's sister asking that we be allowed to
17 Q. So it was in 1992 when you applied to be exchanged?
18 A. Yes, that's right, but we didn't leave then.
19 Q. At the time, you also put down your son and your sister and her
20 family to be exchanged. Do you remember that?
21 A. Yes, of course.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, you are not waiting for the
23 interpretation to be completed after the witness's answer.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I have a document here which is a list of people who put their
1 names down as those who want to cross to the opposing, enemy's side, in
2 order to reunite families. This was the document that doesn't have any,
3 and today we would just like to have the witness inspect this
4 document, and we are not tendering it into evidence. And this document
5 was disclosed to the Prosecution in 1998.
6 A. I put my name down in every single exchange, because I didn't want
7 to remain there and live under very difficult circumstances. However, I
8 did not manage to leave. It wasn't easy to leave. You couldn't just get
9 into your car and go where you pleased. One had to break through that
11 Q. But at any rate, your family from Orasje, namely, Zekija Calic,
12 asked for you to be exchanged back in 1992; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 Today you also described your conversation with Mr. Tadic. You
16 also described it to the Prosecution twice. You said that the
17 conversation took place in the municipal building.
18 Do you remember whether Tadic had his office there, where
19 Blagoje Simic sent you, or was he merely in somebody else's office?
20 A. I found him there, but I don't know whether the office was his.
21 Q. So it was on the same floor as the office of Mr. Simic?
22 A. Yes. But as we got upstairs, the doctor's office was on the left
23 and Miro's office was on the right.
24 Q. Was he alone in the office or with somebody else?
25 A. He was alone.
1 Q. Did he sit at a desk or somewhere near the desk? Do you remember
3 A. Yes. He was at the desk. I walked in. He greeted me
4 courteously. He was nice to me, and I talked to him about that.
5 Q. Based on your today's testimony, I took it that you went to see
6 him the following day and gave him the money in that municipal building.
7 A. Yes, that's right. That was what we agreed about.
8 Q. Was there somebody else there or were you alone?
9 A. I was alone.
10 Q. So you came to Dadic [phoen] all by yourself?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Well, can you describe how that all transpired?
13 A. Well, I didn't regret paying money just in order to be able to
14 leave. My sister's baby was there.
15 Q. Please --
16 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I just want to [Microphone not activated]
17 I'm asking the witness just the facts about the meeting [Microphone not
18 activated] I don't want anything about the family.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. But don't keep interrupting the witness.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. So you came on the 12th of December to the municipal building?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Tell me what exactly happened. How did you enter the building and
25 so on?
1 A. This is how it happened: I entered the building and some of our
2 girls were waiting down there, and I asked them whether they had seen
3 Vlajko, and they said no -- no, I apologise. I mean Miro Brko. Because I
4 met Vlajko on my way there. So I went upstairs. There was nobody there.
5 I entered the corridor. It was vacant too.
6 I knocked on the door, and then Miro came into the corridor and
7 told me that everything was fine. I gave him an envelope with money. He
8 put it in his pocket without counting and left. And he told me everything
9 would be okay and we would see each other at the exchange. He escorted me
10 to the stairwell. I went down and he remained up there. I don't know
11 whether he remembers that, but he should be able to remember that, because
12 a number of us left at the -- at the time, but not my husband.
13 Q. Mrs. Bobic, you said that Miro Tadic came out into the corridor
14 and that you gave him money there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was anyone sitting in his office?
17 A. I didn't see that someone.
18 Q. Did you see that the office was empty at the time when you got in?
19 A. Let me tell you: I didn't get in at all. I opened the door. He
20 was there. He quickly got out and did that. He took the money and said
21 that we would be exchanged. I didn't think about the money at all. I
22 didn't think about anything. I was just thinking about how happy I was to
23 leave, how happy I would be when I would be able to sleep quietly in a
24 peaceful land.
25 Q. Mrs. Bobic, in May this year, in paragraph 72, you stated the
2 "I took all 12.000 German marks to him. I had money hidden where
3 they couldn't find it."
4 A. No. No. I'm sorry. I have to tell you. I had to pass by them.
5 You are telling me things that I have to explain to you.
6 Q. Mrs. Bobic, please, we have problems with the interpretation.
7 Please listen to my question and answer quickly with yes or no.
8 A. I cannot answer you that way.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask for the assistance
10 of the Trial Chamber.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. You can go ahead and ask if -- like
12 we have been through this before, yes or no, some witnesses say it's not
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, Your Honour. But can we
15 get clarification? Because I cannot even put my question, because the
16 clarification begins before I even complete my question.
17 Q. Could you please now listen to what I am reading to you. I'm
18 reading from your statement, and then I will ask you the question. So
19 paragraph 72 of your statement given in May this year:
20 "I brought all the 12.000 Deutschmarks to him. I had money hidden
21 where they couldn't find it. I paid Brko the money on 12th of December,
22 1993, in front of the building of the Red Cross."
23 Mrs. Bobic, now I'm asking you: Do you still maintain that you
24 gave the money to Tadic in the corridor of the municipal building?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Why, then, did you state a month ago that you gave the money in
2 front of the Red Cross building?
3 A. That's not true. It could be an error done while the statement
4 was taken.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
6 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'm just -- so the Bench is aware that
7 the statement from -- that Mr. Lukic is quoting from was a draft statement
8 that was not read back to the witness. When the witness came here and
9 went to read her statement, those parts which referred directly to the
10 acts of the defendant were -- have been taken out of it, in accordance
11 with the guidelines on the Rule 92 bis statements.
12 So she did not get a chance to re-read those -- this part of the
13 draft statement. She was presented with a statement which she was to
14 sign, which involved all the background information and information that
15 did not -- that would not be admitted under Rule 92 bis. So the Bench is
16 aware what Mr. Lukic is quoting from is a draft statement and he knows
18 JUDGE MUMBA: The draft statement that wasn't signed?
19 MS. REIDY: Exactly. A draft statement that was brought back
20 here. It was to be translated and then shown to the witness. Then what
21 happened was there was a ruling in between times about the 92 bis and
22 that, so there will be parts of it the witness has not had a chance to
23 verify, particularly those bits pertaining to the acts --
24 JUDGE MUMBA: The accused.
25 MS. REIDY: If there was a mistake.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really have to point
2 to some things, because I do not want to confuse the witness. I merely
3 want to point out to some incorrect facts. This 92 bis statement has not
4 been signed by the witness. The Prosecutor, Ms. Reidy --
5 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues]... It was intended
6 to be, but it hasn't been, so it isn't a 92 bis statement, because it
7 isn't serving that purpose any more.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I fully agree, Judge Mumba, but this
9 statement was shown to the witness on the 18th of July this year. We
10 received the document from the Prosecution, where the Prosecution
11 indicates certain changes that may have to be done to the statement, but
12 this part is not contained in those corrections. The whole of the
13 statement was shown to the witness, and Ms. Reidy pointed out to the
14 paragraphs which need to be amended.
15 So I don't see any difference between a statement that has been
16 read to the witness and a statement that was gone through in this way.
17 The witness did not want to amend this paragraph. We have a document from
18 the Prosecution indicating that.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
20 MS. REIDY: The witness was not shown the whole statement. The
21 Defence do have a document indicating amendments to Mrs. Bobic's
22 statement. That was a statement that she was going to sign as her 92 bis,
23 and it did not have the paragraphs in it relating to the acts of the
24 defendants, because when it was clear that it was -- that those parts of a
25 witness's statement should not be included in a 92 bis statement, they
1 were then removed, and the witness was asked to confirm the background
2 information, et cetera.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down.
4 MS. REIDY: Sorry.
5 The witness was asked to look at the statement that she would have
6 signed and we would have seeked to have it admitted as a 92 bis statement.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: And what you're saying is that those do not contain
8 the acts of the accused?
9 MS. REIDY: Exactly, because we had amended to do that. And
10 that's why -- and the information provided to Defence counsel on the 18th
11 of July was the changes the witness had made to the statement that would
12 have been the 92 bis statement had we continued to take evidence under
13 that Rule.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
15 MS. REIDY: So I understand where Mr. Lukic is coming from, but
16 it's just -- it was a draft statement, and it's not the case that the
17 witness was shown the whole thing and that's not in my memo that the
18 witness was shown the whole statement. It was just updating them.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But the point that Mr. Lukic is making is
20 clear, that it may have been a draft statement, but that is what was
22 MS. REIDY: That's right. That's what I recorded in English, the
23 draft statement.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: But, just again for the sake of clarity for the
1 record, that the witness did not have an opportunity to amend or correct
2 any parts, such as meeting Mr. Tadic in front of the Red Cross building.
3 She was not given the opportunity to read that and other similar passages
4 and make any pertinent corrections. Is that correct, Ms. Reidy?
5 MS. REIDY: That's correct. When the official translation was
6 done, we asked -- we took out those paragraphs so they didn't need to be
7 translated for the purposes of 92 bis.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on the 18th of July,
9 2002, we knew, pursuant to the decision rendered by the Trial Chamber,
10 that 92 bis statements would not be used. And on the 18th of July, 2002,
11 the Prosecution submitted a document to me about the amendments that the
12 witness made to the statement.
13 All the statements, all the details, not only pertaining to the
14 accused but to the statement as a whole, were there, and now the
15 Prosecution is trying -- it transpires that the Prosecution did not
16 discuss with this witness anything pertaining to our clients. This is not
17 indicated in this document and this is not something that the Prosecution
18 ever told us.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: No. It's --
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Why, then, the amendments? But I will
21 change the topic anyway.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: It's not correct to say that the Prosecution --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may say something.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. Wait. That the Prosecution did not discuss
25 anything pertaining to the activities of your client. They did. What
1 they said is that in the latter statement, after the witness had come
2 here, they removed all those parts relating to the activities of the
3 defendants. No. The point is that the draft which you were given which
4 contains that part which you have been reading to the witness, you don't
5 seem to agree. You are shaking your head. What I'm saying is that the
6 draft you were given by the Prosecution before the witness came was not
7 read back to the witness.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we received just one
9 draft. No other draft statement was done where the allegations pertaining
10 to the clients were expunged. Only one draft was done, and this is the
11 draft that this witness was shown by the Prosecution. This is what I'm
12 saying. There is no other draft version. Because at the time when you,
13 as the Trial Chamber, decided that 92 bis statements could not be tendered
14 into evidence, we have not received any other statement from that time on,
15 and this is the only statement we received, and we are prepared to tender
16 it into evidence.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may say something?
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Bobic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just say how it came about
20 that it is stated here that we were in the Red Cross. The office upstairs
21 in the municipal building, that was the crisis room of the Red Cross,
22 where the gentlemen sat, and we, as individuals, had to go there to be
23 received by them, and not in front of the Red Cross, where there was a
24 mass of people gathered always to wait for a piece of bread that would be
25 handed to them then. Because in the office where this gentleman sat, that
1 was in the municipal building, where it was written on the door "The Red
2 Cross." So he was there in the municipal building, but not in the
3 premises of the Red Cross, where humanitarian aid was distributed. I
4 really have to apologise for being so rude.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mrs. Bobic, do you know that Miroslav Tadic never had an office in
7 the municipal building?
8 A. It's possible that he didn't have an office there, but he was
9 there in that office. I remember it well. You cannot make me confused in
10 any way, at any time. This is the office where I entered, and I was told
11 that my people didn't want me. Then they calmed me down. I had to talk
12 to them to solve this issue to be exchanged, because I had it up to here
13 of all the hard times that I've had and all the hard forced labour. My
14 child was shaking like a leaf every night, and I didn't have a single pill
15 to help him. I really don't want to walk into -- go into that, because
16 these are some games that you cannot really understand. You don't know
17 what was happening. But this is what was happening in Bosanski Samac. We
18 have to be specific. I'm just an ordinary working person. I am not an
19 official. I do not have a university education. I just want to say in
20 public what was happening.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ... silent. I'm
22 afraid this is a criminal trial and counsel has to put questions to you,
23 because his client is facing a serious charge, and I'm afraid you just
24 have to answer those questions.
25 Mr. Lukic, how much more time?
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps some ten minutes, not longer
2 than that. But I'm sure that I cannot finish until our working day today,
3 but I don't believe I will go on any further than ten minutes.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So we'll have to adjourn and continue tomorrow
5 at 9.00. We will rise now until tomorrow at 0900.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m. to
7 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of July
8 2002, at 9.00 a.m.