1 Monday, 2 September 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number
7 IT-95-9-T. The Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo
8 Zaric Simic. Thank you.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, everybody. The Trial Chamber has
10 observed that there is a confidential motion by the Prosecution regarding
11 the testimony of Witness O. In order to discuss it, we'll go into private
13 [Private session]
13 Pages 11892-11896 – redacted – private session
9 [Closed session]
13 Pages 11898-11932 – redacted – closed session
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution. Any other witnesses or any
20 other matters?
21 MS. REIDY: Let me -- I will just perhaps first address the matter
22 for the witnesses and then my colleague may address you on other matters.
23 We do not have any more witnesses. There was another witness who
24 we were to call. I don't want to mention his name because this is one of
25 his concerns. We are not calling him because, as I said, he is in a
1 situation where he's at property back in Bosanski Samac. He's been
2 subject to intimidation and feels that he would not have security if he
3 were to testify and that protective measures would not guarantee people in
4 the municipality not finding out and that could increase for him the
5 difficulties he's experiencing. So in terms of witnesses, Witness O was
6 our final witness.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Obviously, we're very close to the point now where
11 the Prosecution is in a position to close its case.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't want to proceed quite to that point yet, if
14 I may. There are some other matters that I may -- I think we can attend
15 to in the meantime, namely, the production of various documents and so on,
16 which I hope we can do now.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: That will take some time as we produce them to the
19 Court and they're given various exhibit numbers. I would, however, like
20 to formally close, if it's convenient with the Chamber, tomorrow.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: I wanted to remind the Prosecution, the last time
22 before we closed for the summer recess, talking about -- discussing
23 Dr. Gow's evidence. I remember you mentioned something like tabling it
24 formally and having the documents numbered.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Translations of Dr. Gow's evidence.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because all those are part of the Prosecution
2 evidence, so you can't formally close before they are admitted.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. That's exactly right. I can attend to some
4 of those matters now and deal with that now.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: But when I've done that, I don't want to be - if
7 it's okay with the Chamber - pressed to finally close, and I prefer to do
8 that, if I may, tomorrow. There's -- I've already had an opportunity of
9 discussing the general position of the case with my colleagues, but
10 there's some other matters that I want to raise with them. It won't, in
11 effect, cause any great delays. We've obviously --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, Mr. Di Fazio. You can proceed --
13 MR. DI FAZIO: -- well in advance of our expected closure date by
14 the end of the week. Thank you. If Your Honours please, can I produce
15 the English translations of P61, P -- sorry. Would you just bear with me
16 for one moment?
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MR. DI FAZIO: We've got the English translations of the various
19 documents that we discussed on the last occasion the Chamber sat, and
20 perhaps if we deal with them one at a time. Perhaps P61 first. That
21 should now enable that particular exhibit to be given a full exhibit
23 Thank you. P62. The next one was P63. And the remaining
24 document is P67. I do apologise. The second-to-last exhibit is P67.
25 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise to Mr. Di Fazio. I was given a
1 document which I understand is P62, 03066247, ERN number. They were given
2 to me one at a time. I just need to know whether they're part of the same
3 document or whether they are ...
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have clarification, Mr. Di Fazio?
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Copies are being given to registry, so --
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we get more documents, we'd like to make sure
9 that our numbering is correct.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: So what is the correction?
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, maybe if I could just have one
13 clarification from our colleagues. We have just received one document
14 with the ERN number 48121. Is that P67 or P64?
15 MS. REIDY: The number which Defence counsel has just read out,
16 that is ERN 48121, that is P67. The document which the registrar read out
17 earlier, which was 03066247, is P63, and it's entitled Republic of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, with a number BH 317942.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That is now corrected.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: I'm grateful to my colleagues. Now it's all
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the registry and
24 my colleagues from the Prosecution to see whether the document P67 has an
25 ID mark on it. I think that this document was introduced during the
1 testimony of Mr. Vitozovic and I think at the time it was an ID document,
2 the one that is now P67.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: It had to be translated, and he also produced the
4 original of the document, and it's that that's being produced.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: So it wasn't waiting for translation; it was a full
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Awaiting translation.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let's check with the registry assistant, I
9 think, because the records should be correct.
10 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, maybe I could be of assistance. I've
11 read the transcript on this matter.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
13 MS. REIDY: And what happened was that the witness himself
14 produced this document, the original, out of his jacket, so to speak. He
15 didn't have with him, of course, an English translation, because it was
16 his document, so it was given an ID number, and a Prosecution number,
17 although it was introduced during the cross, but it was given an ID number
18 because at that time we only had the B/C/S version and no English version.
19 That's what comes apparent if one reads the transcript from day it was
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have confirmation?
22 I see Mr. Lukic shaking his head. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that we have two problems
24 here. However, I don't have the document on me. But I think that this is
25 where the problem is: This document is the one that Mr. Fitozovic said
1 was his, talking about how he swam over the river, crossed the river, and
2 there was another document that I produced, and that was also given an ID
3 mark. The problem is that that document had already been introduced as
4 P14, or P19, and it was my document, and it was tendered in by the
5 Prosecution. This is why I would like for us to wait before deciding on
6 this document until tomorrow, when I will bring what I have with me and we
7 can clarify this issue. But I think it would be ridiculous to have this
8 document tendered in through the Prosecution during Mr. Lukac's testimony,
9 and then when I tried to introduce that document, then the Prosecution
10 objected to that. And this is why I wanted to wait until tomorrow, until
11 I can produce that document here in court so that we can clarify it and
12 avoid these problems.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, Mr. Lukic. We can wait for you to search
14 for the document.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, I think the matter has been clarified by
17 the registry. The document which you -- the Defence produced was numbered
18 D53/3 ID, and the reason it was given an identification number only was
19 because the witness said that it was a forgery, and then it was agreed
20 that you, during the Defence case, would call evidence to clarify the
21 status of the document. D53/3.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right. But --
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. It's D50/3. D50/3, not 53. Sorry.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right. That document was
1 introduced as an ID document. And during our summer recess I was able to
2 determine that that very document that I tendered here in the courtroom
3 was -- had been introduced by the Prosecution during Lukac's testimony,
4 and it was tendered in at that time. This is all I wanted to clarify, so
5 that there are no misunderstandings here. When Mr. Fitozovic started
6 mentioning that document, then the Prosecution was allowed to once again
7 tender in the document that had already been introduced six months prior
8 to that. I had that document, and Mr. Fitozovic also had the document on
9 him, and I think that this is where potentially a problem can arise. I
10 cannot verify this now because I don't have the document with me at this
11 very moment.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll leave this until tomorrow, when
13 you can look at the documents that you have, and also the Prosecution can
14 revisit this matter, so that we get the correct numbers and we also know
15 which one is the Prosecution Exhibit and which one will remain a Defence
17 Any other documents?
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, if Your Honours please. The testimony of
19 Dr. Gow, you recall, that was one of the last matters that we discussed,
20 and as Your Honour raised this afternoon. The testimony is available now.
21 We've printed off copies.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: It comes from two cases.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Those are transcripts?
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Transcripts, that's right.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: In the other trials.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Together with the exhibits that were referred to by
3 the witness in that testimony. So from the two cases. It's just a
4 question of handing it up and getting exhibit numbers. Now, can I ask you
5 this: Do you want the transcript and the exhibits attached to that
6 transcript all given the one Prosecution Exhibit number, or do you want
7 separate numbers?
8 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I think we can have one single number and then
9 have maybe A, B, C, D, or /1, /2, so that they're kept together.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: That's what I was going to suggest, with respect.
11 Thank you. Two separate exhibit numbers, one for the Tadic testimony and
12 one for the Celebici testimony of Dr. Gow.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. If you can take us through one, one
14 transcript, and then whatever exhibits are attached, so we clearly number
15 them, and then we go to the next one.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you. May I just confer with my case
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps if we deal first with the Tadic testimony
21 of Dr. Gow.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Whichever one is ready.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. We have copies to provide. If the Tadic
24 transcript, if Your Honours please, goes from page -- from numbers 9367 to
25 9055. Once the transcript has been given a number, I can give you the
1 first of the exhibits that is attached to it.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the exhibit number, please?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, before we move on to this Tadic
4 transcript, may I take it that P61, P62, and P67 are admitted into
5 evidence? I'm sorry. I apologise. P61, 62, and 63. P67 will remain for
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I take it there is no objection from the
8 Defence. Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: They are admitted into evidence and they will retain
11 the same numbers as exhibits.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. Exhibit for the Tadic hearing
13 will be P144. Thank you.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Then, therefore, can the first exhibit
15 be given its subnumber? It will be -- the exhibit is "My View of the
16 Break-up - Army Without a State" by Veljko Kadijevic, and we have that --
17 bundles of that particular exhibit available now. So I take it that will
18 become P144A.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let the registry assistant deal with that.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This exhibit will be P144A.
21 Thank you.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. May the next attachment to the
23 transcript --
24 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Could you repeat the number?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It is P144A. Thank you.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. The next attachment to the transcript
2 is the International Conference on the former Yugoslavia Arbitration
3 Commission, opinion number 11, also known as the Badinter Commission.
4 Could that be given exhibit number P144B.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I take it that is confirmed. It's 144B.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, Your Honours. Thank you.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please, may I produce
8 the next attachment to that transcript of Dr. Gow. It's resolution number
9 752 of 1992 of the United Nations Security Council adopted at its 3075th
10 meeting on the 15th of May, 1992.
11 THE REGISTRAR: This will be P144C, Your Honours. Thank you.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: That completes the attachments for that particular
13 exhibit, if Your Honours please.
14 May I move now on to the Celebici transcript, please.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I produce the transcript of the
17 evidence of Dr. Gow from the Celebici case, ask that it be given an
18 exhibit number, and then I'll proceed to provide the attachments, or
19 exhibits that arise from that evidence.
20 THE REGISTRAR: The Celebici transcript will be P145, Your
21 Honours. Thank you.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: May I produce the first attachment? For the sake
23 of brevity, perhaps we can call it Variant A and B document. It bears the
24 same title as that document, instructions for the organisation and
25 activity of organs of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina in
1 extraordinary circumstances.
2 THE REGISTRAR: This will be P145A, Your Honours. Thank you.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: The next subexhibit, if Your Honours please, is
4 excerpts from the diary of Borislav Jovic, entitled "The last days of the
5 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia," and dated the 5th of December,
7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be P145B, Your Honours. Thank you.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: That completes that task. Can I just ask that we
9 go back to the issue of translations? I omitted to hand up one remaining
10 translation, and that is Exhibit P134. It's demographic results. It
11 arose during the testimony of Ewa Tabeau. It was a document produced to
12 her by Mr. Pantelic. The translation of that document has been produced
13 and I now provide the translation. It can be given its full exhibit
14 number, 134 ter, P134.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. P134 ter and P134 are now
17 fully admitted into evidence. Thank you.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE MUMBA: While on Dr. Tabeau, there was the supplementary
20 report which she handed in. I doubt if it was given an exhibit number. I
21 don't remember that.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, yes. Your Honour is quite right.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honour is quite right. The supplementary
25 report was filed, not not given --
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, was it was filed.
2 MR. DE FAZIO: Yes, I am sorry. I haven't attended to that yet. I
3 can get copies of that and provide that to the Chamber.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: No. We got copies at the time.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: You have copies? I see.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because it was filed.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well. I would seek --
8 JUDGE MUMBA: We just want the number.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: -- seek that it be given a formal identification
11 JUDGE MUMBA: If we can go back to the first one and use the same
12 number and then perhaps call it "A."
13 Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
14 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, while we are on the same topic, I
15 would kindly ask my learned friend to provide us with additional copies of
16 B/C/S language translation of the Ewa Tabeau supplement, for the benefit
17 of our client, I mean the annex that you submitted. It's not a question
18 of time. I mean, we are not in a hurry, but just for the record, maybe we
19 could get --
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'll make sure that that's attended to.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio. All right.
22 Can we have the number for it?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. The expert report of Ms. Ewa
24 Tabeau is P133. Thank you.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Just for the sake of clarity, perhaps we could name
1 that the addendum --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: -- report, expert report, of Dr. Ewa Tabeau.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can I have the registry assistant's attention?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. I would just appreciate the Office of the
6 Prosecution to provide the registrar with a copy, because I don't have a
7 copy of that addendum. It needs to be obviously also provided to the
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. I was under the impression that --
10 MR. DI FAZIO: I can do that, provide you with copies.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we just have the formal title again,
12 Mr. Di Fazio? You said that it should be called the addendum.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: I think we can entitle it "Addendum to the expert
14 report of Dr. Ewa Tabeau."
15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Okay.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: And the original -- Ms. Reidy correctly points out,
17 I think, that the original report was P133. This addendum report -- now,
18 I'm not quite sure how you would like to -- what numbering you would like
19 to give it. Would you like it to be called P133A or --
20 JUDGE MUMBA: I think it makes better sense if we have it as part
21 of P133.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Then we have it as P133A.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. That would be -- that would make sense.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Any other documents?
2 MR. DI FAZIO: That doesn't end the issue of documentation. There
3 is an issue that the Prosecution is currently speaking to the Defence
4 about, and that concerns exchange records. We'll be in a position to
5 finally deal with that tomorrow if you now grant my application for an
6 early adjournment to enable us to attend to these last-minute matters. As
7 I said earlier, we'll be able to proceed then smoothly to the final
8 closure of the Prosecution case, I expect, tomorrow.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. We shall adjourn our proceedings and
12 continue tomorrow at 1415 hours.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, yes.
14 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, may I --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Sorry. I saw you rather late.
16 MS. REIDY: I'm not trying to get the last word. I just would
17 like to respond to briefly what my colleague said earlier, at the
18 beginning of the session, about my departure from the Tribunal and the
19 kind words from the Bench. I'm not often lost for words, but I was taken
20 a bit by surprise, so I just wanted to thank my co-counsel and the Bench
21 for their kind words, but just also to place on the record that it has
22 been an extraordinary privilege to have had the opportunity to work for
23 the Tribunal and, in particular, to appear before this Chamber and to be
24 part of the work of this Tribunal. It's something -- an area of law which
25 I personally have a very strong commitment to. So I appreciate also what
1 has been for the main part a very friendly and cooperative relationship
2 that we've had with Defence counsel, and I think we all do get on very
3 well and have good friendly as well as professional relations. So thank
4 you to counsel and to people from the registry and the senior legal
5 officers, who have been very, very cooperative and helpful, when
6 necessary, to me in my role as one of the lawyers from the OTP. So I wish
7 you continued success in continuing this case. I didn't expect it would
8 have gone on this long. I thought I might have seen the end of the case.
9 But that's not how it worked out. So I wish you the best, and again,
10 thank you for your kind words.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
12 MR. PANTELIC: And also if you allow me, Your Honour, on behalf of
13 my colleagues and also our clients, we wish all the best to our learned
14 friend Ms. Reidy in her future professional career and life, and although
15 sometimes we were hotly in dispute and disagree, but that's part of our
16 profession. Nothing personal. We all work our job. And maybe this is a
17 good opportunity, a professional and personal suggestion to Ms. Reidy
18 prior to her leave from this institution.
19 Ms. Reidy, please drop the charges against our client and be happy
20 in your next life. Thank you.
21 Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.
23 Thank you. We'll adjourn until tomorrow at 1415.
24 We wish you well, Ms. Reidy.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.23 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of
2 September, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.