Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14645

1 Friday, 24 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

7 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we continue with the witness, we shall have a

9 Status Conference just to deal with one or two matters. The Trial Chamber

10 has observed that the filings of the parties on depositions have not

11 complied with what has been agreed all along. I wish to remind the

12 parties to look at the -- the Defence, rather, to look at the confidential

13 joint Defence motion dated 14th November last year, and also the Defence

14 submissions of 29th November, 2003, during the proceedings.

15 The deposition evidence is intended to be brief and to be limited

16 to one or two incidents only. The timing listed by the parties was way

17 out of what was agreed upon in the submissions I've referred to. The

18 Trial Chamber has, therefore, decided to limit the time for the witnesses

19 who are going to give depositions for both parties so that

20 examination-in-chief will be for 40 minutes, cross-examination, if any,

21 will be 25 minutes, and re-examination, if required, will be for 15

22 minutes for each deponent. Each accused has seven deponents in this

23 matter. That's all.

24 The Trial Chamber has also been informed that the Defence for

25 Mr. Blagoje Simic, Mr. Pantelic, has not submitted the summary for the

Page 14646

1 witnesses they intend to submit to the Prosecution. That's why the

2 Prosecution has not been able to make their status known to the Trial

3 Chamber.

4 Mr. Pantelic, this matter has been pending for some time. Can you

5 submit summaries to both the Prosecution and the Trial Chamber by 1300

6 hours on Monday?

7 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I was informed yesterday by the court

8 officer, and I just filed it ten minutes ago.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, then.

10 MR. PANTELIC: So one copy is for the Prosecution, the other for

11 the Trial Chamber. As I stated in my submission on 29th of November,

12 Ms. Andric was the bank officer in Samac.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: That is sufficient. We shall see the summaries.

14 You have already spoken about the witness.

15 The Trial Chamber has also been informed that Mr. Lukic, I think,

16 is -- has some Rule 92 submissions -- statements for submissions. We

17 shall now close the Status Conference and move into the proceedings.

18 Mr. Lukic, you can go ahead before the witness comes in, if you

19 are ready, that is.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I do apologise. Just -- it's issue

21 for the technical booth. We have a problem with our laptop. So in the

22 meantime, if someone can come, the Defence would appreciate it.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes. The Defence of

24 Miroslav Tadic got the official translations of a certain number of 92 bis

25 statements. However, in relation to depositions, I would just kindly ask

Page 14647

1 the Trial Chamber for an explanation.

2 Since depositions are limited to certain facts and certain events,

3 as you said yourself, will the Trial Chamber take the following position:

4 Is the cross-examination strictly linked to what the examination-in-chief

5 is about? Because it would really be a problem for us if the

6 cross-examination would deal with some other issues, those that were not

7 raised during the examination-in-chief. I think it would be important for

8 both parties to be aware of the position of the Trial Chamber, especially

9 in view of the fact that you have just restricted our time for that.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: It is not exactly correct to say the time has been

11 restricted by the Trial Chamber because these matters were discussed and

12 the submission is there from the parties.

13 Yes. The cross-examination, of course, will have to be limited to

14 15 minutes, but the Trial Chamber cannot limit the Prosecution as to where

15 or what issues they will raise, because they're entitled to do that under

16 the Rules. So we cannot change the Rules. It's just the time limitation.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours, please, I assume it was a slip of

18 the tongue when you said 15 minutes for cross-examination.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry. Yes, it's 25 minutes.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I appreciate your interpretation, and

22 I just wanted to tell the Trial Chamber one more thing.

23 On behalf of the Defence teams, I sent the government of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina a letter, the government of the federation of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, namely the committee for cooperation with The Hague

Page 14648

1 Tribunal that has to do with the demography expertise, and I hope that we

2 are going to get a response for them in due time. However, if I do not

3 get an answer in good time, then I'm going to notify the Trial Chamber

4 thereof, so then perhaps we'll have to do something with the deadlines.

5 We are now prepared to introduce the following 92 bis statements.

6 Could we please move into private session now for a minute or two because

7 of the first statement? I need to say something in private session about

8 that.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we'll move into private session.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

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14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 14649

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Page 14650

1 [Open session]

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next statement I wish to introduce

3 is the statement of Witness Milka Petkovic.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: The previous exhibit will be under seal to safeguard

5 the interest of the witness until further decision by the Trial Chamber.

6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: The statement of Mr. Milka Petkovic will be

8 treated as D115/3 ID, and D115/3 ter ID.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next statement that the Defence of

10 Miroslav Tadic wishes to tender is the statement of Witness Zeljko

11 Volasevic.

12 THE REGISTRAR: This statement will be treated as D116/3 ID, and

13 D116/3 ter ID.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next statement we would like to

15 tender into evidence is the statement of witness Stanko Bojic.

16 THE REGISTRAR: This statement will be treated as D117/3 ID, and

17 D117/3 ter ID.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next statement we wish to tender

19 into evidence is the statement of witness Hasan Pistoljevic.

20 THE REGISTRAR: This statement will be treated as D118/3 ID and

21 D118/3 ter ID.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next statement that we wish to

23 tender into evidence is the statement taken according to Rule 92 bis for

24 witness Djordje Dujkovic.

25 THE REGISTRAR: This statement will be treated as D119/3 ID and

Page 14651

1 D119/3 ter ID.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next statement is the statement of

3 witness Ilija Mihalj. I repeat the name for the interpreters. Ilija

4 Mihalj.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that the court reporters will

6 get the spelling correctly eventually.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

8 THE REGISTRAR: This statement will be treated as D120/3 ID and

9 D120/3 ter ID.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next statement that I wish to

11 tender into evidence is the statement of witness Marko Kuresevic.

12 THE REGISTRAR: This statement will be treated as D121/3 ID and

13 D121/3 ter ID.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next statement is the statement of

15 witness Muhamed Atic.

16 THE REGISTRAR: This statement will be treated as D122/3 ID and

17 D122/3 ter ID.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And the last statement that we wish to

19 tender into evidence this time is the statement of witness Abdulah

20 Arslanovic.

21 In accordance with the decision of the Trial Chamber, the Defence

22 of Miroslav Tadic is supposed to tender three more witness statements, and

23 we shall do our best to abide by the instructions given by the Trial

24 Chamber. Namely, we shall submit them in the month of February.

25 THE REGISTRAR: This statement will be treated as D123/3 ID and

Page 14652

1 D123/3 ter ID.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: For these statements that have been submitted today,

3 the Trial Chamber has given the Prosecution six working days to indicate

4 their status, whether they wish to cross-examine the witness. That is by

5 Friday next week, 1300 hours.

6 We now proceed with our witness.

7 Mr. Pisarevic, you are still cross-examining when the witness

8 comes.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 WITNESS: LJUBOMIR VUKOVIC [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic: [Continued]

13 Q. Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, Mr. Vukovic. Can you

14 hear me?

15 A. Good morning, I can.

16 Q. Yesterday, we talked about your listening to Mr. Zaric speak on

17 the radio sometime in February or March. The next question which I wish

18 to ask you stems from the fact that in your statement, you referred to an

19 evacuation of women and children on May 16th and 17th, 1992, and you said

20 that the evacuation had been organised by the command of the brigade from

21 Samac. Can you respond for the Trial Chamber on the basis of what did you

22 obtain that knowledge? Did you see any decision of that command, any list

23 drawn up by that command in connection with that evacuation?

24 A. Immediately, the first break, I told these ladies who were there

25 who were preparing me, I told him that I had made a mistake when I said

Page 14653

1 that the military command had been compiling these lists. What I meant to

2 say was that the lists were made in the Red Cross, but the military

3 command had submitted information about the families of the fighters who

4 were on the front line, and it asked for those families if possible to

5 be given priority vis-a-vis the other citizens because the fighters were

6 engaged at the front line.

7 I also said that as far as the Civil Defence staff was concerned,

8 our task, our job, was only to provide the bus. So I made this mistake.

9 I made -- I mentioned them in the context of data, because the Red Cross

10 couldn't draw up this list if it didn't have information from the command

11 as to which families these were.

12 Q. Thank you. If I understood you correctly, you are now testifying

13 here that the -- that the command, when it came to the list submitted the

14 lists of women and children, the families of its own members, to the Red

15 Cross.

16 A. Yes. All the lists were actually drawn up in the Red Cross.

17 Q. In view of the fact that as a citizen of Samac you had lived in

18 Samac for so many years, until -- also until the outbreak of the

19 hostilities on the 17th of April, 1992, and that you remained there

20 throughout the period of the war operations, were you in a position to see

21 any members of the police as of the 17th of April, 1992?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. Can you tell me -- or, rather, can you tell the Trial Chamber, did

24 you notice, did you observe any difference in the uniforms worn by the

25 police until the 17th of April, 1992, and the uniforms which they wore

Page 14654

1 after or as of the 17th of April, 1992?

2 A. There was a considerable difference in their uniforms. Until the

3 17th of April, they wore the classical blue uniforms with the caps that

4 were police caps, standard regulation caps. And after the hostilities,

5 the war, broke out, they put berets on their heads, and they wore

6 camouflage uniforms, black and blue camouflage uniforms.

7 Q. Did their [Realtime transcript read in error "hero"] head of [as

8 interpreted] Stevan Todorovic also wear such a uniform?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And I just have another question before completing my questioning.

11 You have lived in Samac for a long time --

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] It's on page 10, line 5.

13 Mr. Pisarevic didn't say did their hero Stevan Todorovic, did their

14 chief.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think it would make much difference.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note the interpreters said

17 head, head of police.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, thank you.

19 MR. PISAREVIC:

20 Q. You lived in Samac, if I understood you correctly for a long time,

21 and if I heard you correctly you had known Simo Zaric for a long time.

22 Could you just describe in one sentence for the Trial Chamber the person

23 of Simo Zaric, his status, the reputation he enjoyed among the citizens of

24 Samac, the city of Samac, the municipality of Samac, and anything else

25 that you might know on that score.

Page 14655

1 A. I have known Simo Zaric for many years. I don't know whether

2 these are the beginnings, whether it was the beginnings of his career when

3 we worked together in a company, but later he became head of a transport

4 group in the Bosanka trading company. So we worked together for a year or

5 two, I'm not quite certain, and he was later transferred. He later moved

6 to SUP to work. He stayed in the SUP for a while, and then -- then found

7 employment with the work organisation enterprise called -- called

8 Buducnost to the company in Belgrade, and then he came to Belgrade,

9 worked for the state security in Doboj.

10 Q. We know all that.

11 A. We saw each other. We were often together. Sometimes I would

12 organise some little get-togethers in my house, and that couldn't go past

13 without Simo Zaric. My family liked Simo Zaric, is very fond of him. And

14 not only my family but an overwhelming number of the population in Samac

15 municipality is -- are very fond of Simo. You know, people are popular if

16 they can sing and dance and be congenial in the company of others, and

17 Simo Zaric is precisely that kind of a man.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination, Mr. Weiner.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Weiner:

22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vukovic.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. My name is Philip Weiner. I'm a Prosecutor here with the Office

25 of the Prosecution and I've got some questions to ask you today. Could

Page 14656

1 the witness be shown Exhibit D110/3, please.

2 Do you remember looking at that exhibit yesterday, sir?

3 MR. WEINER: You can sit down Mr. Usher.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes I do.

5 MR. WEINER:

6 Q. And having looked at that, would you agree with me that the title

7 of that is "List of civilians from Samac municipality who have been

8 killed"?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And would you agree with me that that list, sir, is inaccurate?

11 A. No. It is an accurate list, and I knew more than half of the

12 people on this list personally.

13 Q. All right. Let's -- let's look at it. Your friend who you talked

14 about yesterday whose nickname was Antesa, Anto Brandic, could you please

15 show me where his name appears on that list, the same Anto Brandic,

16 or Antesa, that was murdered by Stevan Todorovic? Could you please look

17 at the list to your right, sir, and show me where his name appears.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. The interpreter did not hear the

19 witness.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness repeat what he said? The

21 interpreters didn't hear it.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Repeat. I cannot find Brandic on

23 this list.

24 MR. WEINER:

25 Q. Sir, there was another man with the exact same name, Anto Brandic,

Page 14657

1 whose nickname was Dikan who we've had a lot of testimony in this case,

2 and it's not being contested by these Defence counsel, that was murdered

3 at the Territorial Defence building by Lugar, having been shot in the head

4 in April of 1992. Obviously his name isn't on that list either, is that

5 correct, sir?

6 A. I do not know Dikan. I never heard of him.

7 Q. But his name is not on that list. There is no second Anto Brandic

8 nicknamed Dikan on that list either?

9 A. I haven't found any Anto Brandic. I don't know what serial

10 number. If you can tell me.

11 Q. I don't have a serial number. I have his name and nickname. But

12 I know it does not appear on that list, sir.

13 Sir, isn't it also true that the names Bato Kljajic, and Marko

14 Evic. The Bato last name is K-L-J-A-J-I-C, and Marko Evic, who were both

15 shot to death at the secondary school by Lugar on the 7th of July, 1992.

16 Those names do not appear on that list.

17 A. I heard about these two men, that they were killed, but yesterday

18 in my statement I said everything that all the people who were actually

19 killed in prisons in Samac, in SUP, in the school, as regards all those,

20 we were neither informed nor did we organise their funerals. They were

21 not taken to the morgue, and we in the civil and defence staff therefore

22 did not know about those people who were killed in prison. This was the

23 concern of the organs of the SUP. Where they were buried and when and who

24 had been killed, we didn't know. I heard -- I said yesterday that I only

25 heard in The Hague about Antesa, and I'm very sorry this should have

Page 14658

1 happened to him as a human being. That was not accessible to the public.

2 Such knowledge was not accessible to the public.

3 Q. Sir, my question is did those two names appear on -- that those

4 two names do not appear on that list. Is that correct? Would you agree

5 with me that those two names, Bato Kljajic and Marko Evic do not appear

6 on that list?

7 A. No, they don't.

8 Q. Now, sir, are you aware that also in 1992, in the summer, Dr. Ruza

9 Brdar Masic, do you know Dr. Ruza Brdar Masic? Dr. Ruza from Samac?

10 A. Yes, I do. Yes, I know her.

11 Q. Now, are you aware that she was also called to the high school to

12 pronounce a man dead, an elderly man from Vidovici or Kanapici, and there

13 is no indication of any elderly man from Kanapici or Vidovici who was

14 beaten to death on that list? Would you agree with me? There is no

15 indication of anyone that was beaten to death on that list? So that one

16 was also not listed.

17 A. I don't know. I have no knowledge that Dr. Ruza was called to the

18 SUP or to the prison. We had no connection whatsoever with the prison, we

19 from the civil defence staff. I never even peeked in there.

20 Q. My question, sir, is there any indication on that list of a person

21 being beaten to death, elderly man from one of those two towns, Vidovici

22 or Kanapici? Would you take my word for it there is no such indication on

23 that list? Or you can look at it yourself?

24 A. I don't know Vidovici and Kanapici, and I've never heard of them,

25 so I can't say anything about that.

Page 14659

1 Q. But there is no indication on that list where it says place of

2 residence Vidovici or Kanapici? There is no indication on that list. If

3 you want to look at it, it's three pages. Would you agree with me?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Nor is there any indication on that list of an elderly man who has

6 been beaten to death in Bosanski Samac?

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I am objecting to the

8 line of questioning. The witness has stated repeatedly what he knows

9 about these people. And now the question is whether they were beaten to

10 death. And the witness has said that he doesn't know anything about that

11 and he has repeatedly said he doesn't know with precision.

12 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, that's not my question. My question is,

13 if you look at the list it has how these people were killed, where these

14 people were from. It has an approximate age, it has the year of birth.

15 I'm asking if specific people who were murdered in Bosanski Samac,

16 civilians, are listed on that list, and that's all I'm asking.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's a question of the witness looking at the

18 document in front of him and answering the question.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Omer -- Fikret Omeragic is the first

20 man from Samac who is on this list, and the first shelling on Samac hit

21 Fikret and he succumbed to his wounds.

22 MR. WEINER:

23 Q. Sir, that's not my question. My question is: Is there any

24 indication on that list of an elderly man who was beaten to death in

25 Samac?

Page 14660

1 A. As far as I can see on this list, this is all shells, shells,

2 bullets. There is Ilija Antunic from Grebnice killed in the HVO, and Vojo

3 Micic from Domaljevac killed in the HVO. The rest is from shells and

4 wounds and bullets.

5 Q. Thank you. There is no person indicated on that list that was

6 beaten to death. Let us continue. We've had testimony about a man Aladin

7 Jakupovic. His nickname was Dadi. Did you know him, sir, Aladin

8 Jakupovic? He was a large man, a bouncer or a doorman at a club or cafe.

9 A. This is the first time I hear of this person. I don't know him,

10 and I've never seen him. Perhaps I've seen him, but I don't know the

11 man. I've never -- I don't know about any Jakupovic.

12 Q. He was murdered in April or May of 1992 by a group of the Serbian

13 volunteers. Do you see his name on that list, Aladin Jakupovic, nicknamed

14 Dadi, or would you agree with me it does not appear on that list?

15 A. I could not find that first and last name on this list.

16 Q. Thank you. Sir, we've had testimony about another man nicknamed

17 Suma from Bosanski Samac. His name is Rusmir Hodzic nicknamed Suma. Do

18 you know him?

19 A. No, I don't.

20 Q. He was beaten to death at the Territorial Defence building. He

21 was severely beaten, but he died in July -- I'm sorry, June or July of

22 1992 at the hospital in Bosanski Samac as a result of those beatings. Do

23 you see his name on the list, Suma nickname, Rusmir Hodzic?

24 A. I said also in my statement yesterday, and I've said now and I'm

25 repeating, that everything which happened in prison as to who was beaten,

Page 14661

1 who was killed, I have no connection with that whatsoever, nor do I know

2 anything about that. And I cannot say anything about it, and I cannot

3 speak about things that I know nothing about it. I just want to tell the

4 truth, and I cannot say anything about things that I know nothing about.

5 Q. Sir, the question is: Does the name appear on the list or do you

6 agree with me that his name is not on the list? That's all I'm asking.

7 I'm not blaming you for those deaths or indicating that you're responsible

8 in any way for those deaths. I'm just asking does that name appear on

9 that list.

10 A. Please bear with me. I've gone through the his for -- several

11 times looking for the names and surnames of these people that you're

12 asking. You're asking about this person, and you know that he is not on

13 the list. Why are you making me re-read the list to look for the first

14 and last name of a man with whom I have no connection whatsoever, and you

15 know that he is not on the list and it is not on the list.

16 Q. So that name is not on the list. What about the 16 people who

17 were killed in Crkvina, the 16 non-Serb civilians, and I believe you

18 probably have known some of them such as Jozo Bosalic. None of their

19 names appear on that list. Nine locals and seven from Teslic. There is

20 no indication on this list of anyone from Teslic that was -- any civilian

21 from Teslic that was murdered, and none of those other nine names, Jozo

22 Antunovic, Luka Gregurevic, such as Niko Brandic, Ilija Matic, Ivo Tuzla,

23 just to name a few, none of those names appear on this list, sir. So

24 since these 16 names don't appear on the list and those others that we

25 have, you must agree with me, sir, this is not an accurate list of the

Page 14662

1 civilians that were killed in Bosanski Samac.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I object to this question because the

4 witness should be asked to clarify what civilians are, whether detained

5 persons are civilians, and only then whether he accepts this contention of

6 the Prosecution without going into the legal terminology in which the

7 witness is not versed.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, asking him what a civilian is is a legal

10 issue. We've had a lot of testimony in this case as to the civilians who

11 were illegally detained that were not notified of any charges, and that's

12 our argument, that these were civilians. Some of these people were

13 isolated, the people in the high school. We've had testimony that these

14 people were isolated.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. Isn't the answer from the witness

16 that of those who were isolated in prisons or wherever, he doesn't know

17 anything about them and they don't appear on the list.

18 MR. WEINER: That's all I want is his answer that those people

19 don't appear on the list. So therefore, this is an inaccurate list.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought that his answer was complete.

21 MR. WEINER: I asked the question. I didn't receive an answer.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh. All right.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This list which is before me is

24 accurate according to the records which were maintained on the funerals of

25 civilians killed in the territory of Samac municipality, killed by shells

Page 14663

1 and bullets, the effects of the war operations. And as I've said, those

2 who were killed in the prison in Crkvina, that is something that we had no

3 connection with whatsoever. Yesterday I said that I had found out about

4 this incident in Crkvina, and I asked Miroslav Tadic about it, and he told

5 me, unfortunately I have also heard of it, and whether it was true, he

6 couldn't tell me. And of all these people who were killed in Crkvina, I

7 felt the most sorry for a person, the last name of whom the interpreter

8 couldn't catch.

9 MR. WEINER:

10 Q. Who was the person, the last name? Sir, what was the name of the

11 person you felt most sorry for?

12 A. Josip Orsolic.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you.

14 A. I heard that he had been among the people who had been killed at

15 Crkvina.

16 Q. Then, sir, if those people, those civilians who were murdered in

17 Samac, those Muslim and Croat civilians who were murdered, who you didn't

18 bury but were murdered in Samac, their names do not appear on this list,

19 then this is not an accurate list of those people killed in Samac.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I object. This is a repetition of the

21 same question as awhile ago. Now the -- is the -- the Prosecutor is

22 imputing to this witness that these were civilians, and the witness said

23 these were detainees and these are wholly different categories. The

24 witness explained very clearly and very precisely that these were

25 civilians killed in the city from the effects of shelling. So this is a

Page 14664

1 totally different category. And the Prosecutor is trying to impose this

2 on the witness while the witness has no factual knowledge or legal

3 knowledge to actually make the distinction between civilians, prisoners of

4 war, and detainees. I believe that this calls for a legal conclusion on

5 the part of the witness through the way the question has been posed.

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, the witness hasn't answered the

7 question. It does not call for a legal conclusion. It calls for a very

8 simple conclusion. If you have a group of people who are not on the

9 list --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: No, what Mr. Lukic was talking about is your

11 classifications of civilians. If you simply say persons, I think that

12 will stop the problem.

13 MR. WEINER:

14 Q. Sir, if those persons, names, are not on this list, then you would

15 agree with me that this is not a complete list of the persons in Bosanski

16 Samac that were killed?

17 A. I said that this was -- is the complete list made on the basis of

18 records of killed civilians in the territory of Bosanski Samac from

19 bullets, shells, and mines. And I also clearly indicated -- said that

20 what happened in prison was the concern of the bodies of the secretariat

21 of internal affairs which did not inform us --

22 Q. That's not my question. Listen to my question carefully?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, can you move on? I think the answers

24 are sufficient at this point.

25 MR. WEINER:

Page 14665

1 Q. Sir, yesterday you testified about the illegal arming of local

2 people in Samac by political parties. Do you recall that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. During your testimony, you did not mention the arming of locals by

5 the SDS political party; is that correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Were you aware that the SDS party was illegally arming its

8 members?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Now, sir, you testified early today about your friend Simo Zaric,

11 your long friend. Your friend Simo Zaric, who you've been friends with

12 for a very long time; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you aware that 1998, Simo Zaric gave a statement to the

15 Office of the Prosecutor where he describes the illegal arming in Bosanski

16 Samac by the SDS party?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know of any reason why Simo Zaric would say that the SDS

19 party was illegally arming its members if it wasn't true?

20 A. Well, I don't know whether Simo knew whether there was arming

21 going on or not, but I didn't know about it.

22 Q. Sir, you're aware that your old friend Simo Zaric was involved in

23 intelligence work and had worked for state security, so-called secret

24 police?

25 A. Well, I wouldn't call it the secret police. It wasn't the secret

Page 14666

1 police while Simo worked at the state security service.

2 Q. And at that state security service, he was involved in

3 intelligence.

4 A. I would not know what work he -- what work he was engaged in at

5 the state security service. This was not accessible to us civilians.

6 Q. Well, did you ever provide any information to Simo Zaric at the

7 SDB or the state security service?

8 A. I had no information to give him. I don't know. I don't know

9 what kind of information he may have been interested in. The kind of

10 information that I could provide him with. While he worked at the state

11 security service, he and I never, ever talked about work. I did things

12 that were completely different from the work that he did at the state

13 security service. So we had nothing to talk about in that respect ever.

14 Q. But, sir, he has testified here -- or not testified, he's provided

15 a statement indicating that the SDS was illegally arming its members, the

16 Serbian SDS. Do you know of any reason why he would say that if it wasn't

17 true?

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And I finally have to object to

19 this line. How could a witness possibly know why Mr. Zaric said something

20 in his statement. This is direct calling for speculation.

21 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, it's a common question on the issue

22 bias. He could say, well Simo is a liar; he could say Simo is not

23 truthful; he can say Simo has mental problems and just makes things up; he

24 can say Simo's honest man.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: I followed the question. It's properly put to the

Page 14667

1 witness and the witness can answer.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say what Simo stated, how

3 he stated it, what he knew and what I did not know about. I did not know

4 that SDS was arming people. If Simo Zaric knew about that and I don't

5 know whether he knew about that, I mean, I cannot give a different answer.

6 MR. WEINER:

7 Q. My question is: Do you know of any reason why he would say it if

8 it wasn't true? Knowing Simo Zaric as you do, do you know of any reason

9 why he would say it if it wasn't true? I'm not asking you whether or not

10 you were aware of the arming. Do you know of any reason why he would make

11 that statement that the SDS was arming its members if it wasn't true?

12 A. I could not answer that question. I don't know the answer to that

13 question.

14 Q. All right. Let's move on. Sir, you were working at the

15 pensioners' building for approximately a year, 1992, 1993.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And each morning in 1992 when you got there, did you see a large

18 group of people standing out front of the pensioners' home awaiting their

19 work assignments?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did you know any of these people? Did you recognise any

22 Muslim or Croat friends, acquaintances, neighbours standing in that line

23 or in that group?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And those people were waiting to receive their work assignments or

Page 14668

1 work orders from Beg Kapetanovic, as you testified yesterday, and then you

2 said a Celic, is that Dzevad Celic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And those people would give out those work assignments. Now, were

5 you aware that some of those Muslim and Croat civilians, as part of their

6 work assignments, were being sent to the front lines to dig trenches and

7 to construct bunkers for the soldiers?

8 A. No. I did not know where they went and what kind of work they did

9 and who engaged them. I knew that they were going out for their work

10 assignments, for their work obligation, and what work they actually did is

11 something that I did not know, and I and the rest of us at the civilian

12 protection staff were not interested in this. That was not our affair.

13 Q. Sir, did you ever learn, as part of your -- as part of your work,

14 that two young men were killed in crossfire while digging trenches at the

15 front lines and they're on that list we had in front you previously,

16 number 41, Dzevad Drigic, son of Galib, and number 75, Redzep Idriza

17 [phoen], son of Muharem. Were you aware of that, those two young men on

18 that list that you just had in front of you a little while ago -- list of

19 civilians killed during the war, that they were killed while digging

20 trenches on the front lines as part of their work?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, you also testified yesterday about certain types of work and

23 assignments. Are you all right? Are you okay?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Sorry. You also testified yesterday about certain work

Page 14669

1 assignments that were given and that came through your office, and you

2 mentioned various assignments that were sent down to Beg Kapetanovic and

3 Celic, requests for work. Now, let's talk about another area you talked

4 about. You talked about repairing of glass. Do you remember that

5 yesterday? Broken windows, glass.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you talked about and you discussed how it was a major problem

8 in Bosanski Samac.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you mentioned that you used the glass from the Uniglas, and

11 you used so much glass that you went through their whole inventory of

12 glass.

13 A. Well, I don't know if we went through their whole inventory, but

14 the next time we were supposed to glaze some windows there was no glass

15 left. The first time when windows were broken in town, they did send us

16 glass, but the next time there was no glass for it.

17 Q. Now, when you repair these windows with this stock, glass stock,

18 it's not -- there's a number of different tasks that have to be done such

19 as removing the broken glass, measuring the glass, checking the frame to

20 see if it's bent, placing the -- cutting the glass, placing the piece of

21 glass in there, and you need someone with some basic carpentry or

22 glazier -- glass work as background. You didn't do that work, did you,

23 sir?

24 A. Well, this cannot be done by people who don't know how to work

25 with glass and who don't have the right things to work with. I think it

Page 14670

1 was Kapetanovic who was there then, and we asked him for men who had tools

2 to cut glass with and who knew how to do that kind of work, and they were

3 then engaged for this work by their superiors who assigned them to do

4 that. They were made available to the civilian protection staff until the

5 glazing business was finished.

6 Q. Thank you. I just want to say that basically you and Miroslav

7 Tadic didn't do that yourselves, but you went downstairs to Beg

8 Kapetanovic and Dzevad Celic to get the workers to do it; correct?

9 A. Well, I said yesterday that it was not our job to take workers and

10 to assign them to what they were supposed to do. We always had to ask

11 them. They were under the Ministry of Defence, and we had those people

12 downstairs who were actually handing out the assignments. And then when

13 we, the civilian protection staff, were supposed to carry out work that we

14 were in charge of, then we said to them exactly what kind of people we

15 needed. I mentioned the people who made coffins. Yesterday I mentioned

16 them. A coffin could not be made by someone who doesn't know how to make

17 a coffin.

18 Q. What we're talking about is the glass. So what you would do is

19 when you had the jobs, you would notify Beg Kapetanovic and Dzevad Celic,

20 and they would supply the labour; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did you know a man by the name of Teufik Drljacic? He was a

23 local glazier, a window man. Halid Drljacic his brother. Did you know

24 him or hear of him?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14671

1 Q. And was he one of the men who was out there repairing glass and

2 windows and things?

3 A. I could not say, and I'll tell you why. We at the civilian

4 protection staff, as far as this group of construction workers were

5 concerned for repairing glass, windows, buildings, et cetera, this was led

6 by Ismet Ramusovic. I really had nothing to do with people who were

7 engaged in that particular line of work, but I know how this was done.

8 Q. So on that type of repairing, in addition to the glass and that

9 type of repairing of buildings and other matters, you would also go down

10 to Beg Kapetanovic. So if a roof had to be repaired or a door had to be

11 repaired, you would go to Beg Kapetanovic or Dzevad Celic and ask for

12 people with those specialties to do that work. Is that correct? You and

13 Ismet Ramusovic, your co-worker?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. One moment, please.

16 Q. Sorry, Your Honour. Sir, I'd just like to talk very briefly about

17 the mobilisation that you had observed or you had heard about that, they

18 tried to mobilise a group of Muslims and Croats sometime, I believe,

19 during the summer of -- based on testimony, it would have been the late

20 summer of 1992.

21 A. I said yesterday that they were asked to attend a meeting at the

22 memorial centre. Now, why they were invited is something that I don't

23 know, but I know that this meeting did not take place, that there was not

24 a successful discussion, and immediately that night people started fleeing

25 from Samac. Who invited them and for what reason is something that I

Page 14672

1 don't know about.

2 Q. Well, isn't it true that after that meeting which you indicated

3 yesterday that they were asked to take up arms that you said a number of

4 people fled, including your son-in-law who was Croatian, and his brother?

5 Is that true? That's what you testified to yesterday.

6 A. That is not what I said yesterday. I did not say that they were

7 asked to take up arms, and my son-in-law was not Croatian but Muslim. And

8 it's my former son-in-law at that.

9 Q. Your former son-in-law. But did your former son-in-law and his

10 brother flee right after that meeting?

11 A. I don't know if they fled immediately after the meeting, but they

12 did flee that night after the meeting. The next day, they were not in

13 Samac. At what time they fled from Samac and how is something that I

14 would not know.

15 Q. Sir, after they -- after he fled, your son-in-law, was your

16 daughter sent to Zasavica? A lot of other people whose sons, wives,

17 husbands fled were sent to Zasavica. Was your daughter sent to Zasavica?

18 Was she detained and sent there after her husband fled?

19 A. My daughter divorced that husband of hers in January of 1990, and

20 nobody ever thought of war then. When the war broke out, she had nothing

21 to do with him whatsoever.

22 Q. My question is: Was she sent to Zasavica or were you and your

23 wife sent to Zasavica? That's all.

24 A. I don't know how come you're putting that kind of question to me.

25 You know who was sent to Zasavica.

Page 14673

1 Q. Sir, the question is -- the question is very simple. Was your

2 daughter-in-law -- I'm sorry. Was your daughter sent to Zasavica? Yes or

3 no?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And were you and your wife sent to Zasavica in August of 1992?

6 A. No.

7 Q. All right. Let's move on. You indicated that you owned some

8 property. You owned a house. You built a house in Bosanski Samac in the

9 area known as the first quarter or Mahala, as you described it yesterday.

10 Maybe I'm not pronouncing it correct. The first quarter or you also

11 called it Mahala.

12 A. The fourth quarter called Mahala, the street of Vojislav Ilic,

13 number 45.

14 Q. Thank you. And do you still live there to this day?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And did you live there during the war?

17 A. During the first few days in the beginning, I did not, because the

18 house was exposed to the first combat operations near the line of fire.

19 So I didn't dare stay there.

20 Q. But through the rest of the war did you live there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. No one ever evicted you from that house? You never lost that

23 house during the war; is that correct?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, let's go to your sister's flat which was in the centre of the

Page 14674

1 town, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Sir, I'm sorry. One second. I asked you previously that I said

4 no one ever evicted you from that house. You never lost that house; is

5 that correct, and you said no. Do you mean: No, that you never lost the

6 house, or that no, you did lose the house?

7 A. I was not evicted. I did not lose my house.

8 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to clarify the transcript.

9 Now, sir, your sister's flat, did she live it in during the war,

10 your sister?

11 A. During the first few months, she had fled to Serbia. And after

12 returning from Serbia, she went on living in that apartment where she's

13 lived until the present day.

14 Q. And no one ever evicted her or forced her out of that apartment.

15 Isn't that correct?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, your daughter, where was she living? Was she living with you

18 or was she living with you, your sister, or did she have her own apartment

19 or home?

20 A. My daughter stayed in the house where she had lived while she was

21 living with that husband of hers. When they divorced, she got custody of

22 their child, and she lived in that house throughout the war until she got

23 married again. She remarried later again and moved to this man's house.

24 Q. But no one ever evicted her, and she never lost the home? No?

25 A. No.

Page 14675

1 Q. So when you say no to that question and the previous one about

2 your sister, you mean that they were never evicted. Isn't it correct that

3 they were never evicted and they never lost their homes?

4 A. Never.

5 Q. And your son, where was your son living during the war? Was he

6 living with you or --

7 A. My son has a house of his own, and we share the same yard. During

8 the war, he was at the front line, and his wife and child were in Serbia

9 during the first few months. Then they returned, and they lived in

10 Samac.

11 Q. During those months while he was at the front lines, he was away

12 and your daughter-in-law and grandchild was away in Serbia, did anyone

13 take that home? Did anyone move into that home?

14 A. Nobody could have moved in because the shell had damaged it,

15 destroyed it. Even if somebody wanted to, it wasn't possible.

16 Q. Was the house eventually repaired?

17 A. Now, yes.

18 Q. And has it -- did anyone move into that home, ever move into that

19 home or evict them from that home?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So basically no one in your family lost any property during the

22 war through eviction or seizure.

23 A. My own nuclear family, no, but my sister who lives in the country,

24 in a village, she had all her property destroyed. She has nothing.

25 Q. And when you say "destroyed," do you mean by shelling or did

Page 14676

1 someone seize it or take custody of it?

2 A. Quite simply it was blown up. She has nothing left, not the house

3 itself or the facilities around the house. And units came there, units of

4 the Croatian army, and that's where they clashed with these -- with this

5 army of ours from Krajina, and then as they were fighting, this house was

6 destroyed.

7 Q. Okay. So you agree with me that no one had any home -- had any --

8 no one in your family had any of their homes seized, and no one was

9 evicted. I'm not talking about shelling, but strictly no one was evicted,

10 no one had any of their property seized, no one lost any --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter did not hear the answer of the

12 witness.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree.

14 MR. WEINER:

15 Q. Thank you. I just want to cover a few more areas and finish up,

16 sir. You indicated that you didn't join the SDS party; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you're aware that that was a national party?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you were aware that that was the main Serb party, sir?

21 A. Well, I don't know. It depends on the Serbs involved. For some

22 it was the main party and for others it wasn't.

23 Q. Well, you joined the SDP party, SDP party in 1994; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the SDP party, as opposed to the SDS party, was a multi-ethnic

Page 14677

1 and more moderate party; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the reason for your not joining the SDS, was that due to its

4 leadership or its policies, its leadership personnel or its policies? Is

5 that why you didn't join the SDS?

6 A. The political programmes of any political party did not suit me.

7 I opted for the SDP because it has a programme which is a programme -- a

8 programme which suits everyone, Muslims, Croats, and Serbs.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. Political party,

10 national political party needs to be included, yes.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

12 continues] ... of any national political party. Only the word national

13 here is missing in line 19, page 32.

14 MR. WEINER: The interpreter has already corrected it.

15 Q. Sir, would you agree with me - you indicated that certain

16 political party programmes - did not suit you did the SDS policy of

17 separation of the three ethnic groups, was that something that didn't suit

18 you? Is that a policy that you --

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. And the SDS -- when the SDS advocated the use of force to separate

21 the three ethnic groups, you weren't in favour of that either. Isn't that

22 true, sir?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And are you aware that three of the main SDS leaders, Krajisnik,

25 Karadzic, and Plavsic, have all been indicted as war criminals? Are you

Page 14678

1 aware of that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And are you aware that Biljana Plavsic, one of the former SDS

4 leaders and a former Bosnian Serb leader has pled guilty and has admitted

5 to a persecution campaign against the non-Serb population? Are you aware

6 of that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are you aware that she has admitted to implementing this policy

9 objective of the ethnic separation by force, that she's admitted to that,

10 that she as part of the SDS and Serb leadership has admitted to that?

11 A. I am not aware of that. What she admitted to and what she did,

12 I'm not aware of that.

13 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, it's time for the break.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll have the break and continue our

15 proceedings at 1100 hours.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. You can continue.

19 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Good morning again, Mr. Vukovic. Sir, you, Simo Zaric, Miroslav

21 Tadic, you three were not members of the SDS; correct?

22 A. I would like to ask the Presiding Judge of the Trial Chamber for

23 the Prosecutor not to ask me any other questions associated with political

24 parties. I will not reply to such questions. I have not come here to

25 respond to questions about politics but about the operation of the civil

Page 14679

1 defence staff. Who was a member of what party is something that I was

2 never concerned with. People followed their choices and their options and

3 joined parties of their own volition. I wasn't interested in that at all.

4 I cannot respond to such questions. Why Simo Zaric, why this or that

5 person joined this or that party, I really was not interested in that.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Vukovic, you have come to the Tribunal as a

7 witness in a criminal trial on an indictment referred by the Prosecution

8 against these three accused persons. You have concluded your

9 evidence-in-chief when you are answering questions by Mr. Lukic who called

10 you on behalf of Mr. Tadic. According to our rules of evidence, the

11 Prosecution, represented by Mr. Weiner who is now asking you questions, is

12 entitled to ask you questions not only on the evidence in chief which you

13 have given but also on any other matters which may support their case, the

14 Prosecution case against the three accused persons. Such questions may

15 include political activities of other people, including the accused

16 persons.

17 Your role, having made the solemn declaration, is to answer those

18 questions as truthfully according to what you know. If any questions are

19 not proper for you to answer, Mr. Lukic, as well as the Trial Chamber,

20 will protect you by indicating to the Prosecutor that any such questions

21 posed may not be answered by the witness. Where there is no such

22 intervention, your obligation is to answer the question.

23 If you don't know anything about the question posed, you say so,

24 that you don't know. If you can't remember, you say so, that you can't

25 remember.

Page 14680

1 Mr. Weiner, please proceed.

2 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Vukovic, let's move on for a few minutes to some other

4 subject. Okay. We'll move on a little bit and then we'll get back to

5 that, but let's just move on, okay?

6 Yesterday you talked about Cafe AS. Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. And that was -- going there was one of your favourite places. Was

9 that your favourite place to go before the war?

10 A. Yes. But this was in 1991.

11 Q. Yes. In early -- before the war. 1991, early 1992.

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. And as a frequent patron, you had a drink there, you'd play cards,

14 you'd socialise, you had friends there; correct? Correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And after the war began, you talked about going there and a couple

17 of incidents that occur. You went there some time, I think in April or

18 May you went there too.

19 A. Yes, I went there at that time but for short periods of time. I

20 would not sit there and sit there for some time. I would just go there to

21 attend to some business and then I would return to the staff where I

22 worked.

23 Q. And when you went there, you talked about a couple incidents. You

24 remember you talked about Avram who kind of got out of hand with a gun

25 sometime while you were there in May?

Page 14681

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And were you there for a while or did you leave immediately after

3 that incident?

4 A. Unfortunately, I could hardly wait to leave, to get myself away

5 from that place. And it was not a pistol, it was an automatic rifle.

6 Q. Okay. Now, after that incident in May, did you again go to the

7 Cafe AS in May or June, July? Did you go to the Cafe AS?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 Q. So the last time you went was the time when Avram had the gun, in

10 early May?

11 A. Well, it so happened that I was there when two incidents took

12 place. The first one with Ramusovic, and then this other one with Avram

13 and Miroslav, and I didn't want to go there any more.

14 Q. Well -- so the place hadn't closed, you just decided not to go

15 there any more after that, after the two incidents that had happened in

16 May -- one in late April and one in early May?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And just one quick question. When Avram was waving the gun,

19 was he drinking? Had he had a few too many? Was he drunk or had --

20 A. Well, he certainly seemed drunk. And whether he had had a few too

21 many or how much he had drunk, I don't know, but I was scared when he

22 turned the gun towards me, where I was sitting, and Miroslav. It wasn't

23 really pleasant. The only thing which I thought about was how to get away

24 from the place.

25 Q. Okay. Did he have any beer bottles in front of him or did you see

Page 14682

1 any glasses, liquor glasses in front of him on that day? You said he

2 sounded drunk or appeared drunk. Do you remember any beer bottles, or you

3 just don't recall?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. Okay. Did any of your friends go to the Cafe AS after that

6 incident? I know you didn't go, but did any of your friends go?

7 A. I don't know about these friends. Of these friends who went with

8 me, they didn't go. And of other friends, when -- seeing that there was

9 war and the conditions of war prevailed, I didn't actually see those

10 other friends of mine, so I don't know.

11 Q. All right. So the last time that you went there was after this

12 second violent incident was early May of 1992?

13 A. I think it was the beginning of May. I don't know the exact

14 date. I think it was the beginning of May, and I don't know the date.

15 Q. Okay. Now, sir, being a Yugoslav, you don't believe in the

16 persecution of any ethnic group, is that true? You, being a Yugoslav,

17 don't believe in the persecution of any ethnic group?

18 A. Yes, yes. No, I don't.

19 Q. And you didn't agree that non-Serbs should be deported from an

20 area? You don't agree with that?

21 A. I didn't. Yes, I did not agree.

22 Q. And you did not agree that non-Serbs should be detained or

23 imprisoned for no other reason than their ethnicity?

24 A. I was always against it, irrespective of what ethnicity was in

25 question or people being detained in prison, mistreated. Irrespective of

Page 14683

1 their ethnicity, I always advocated such a view and will uphold it while

2 I'm alive.

3 Q. That's good. And you also didn't agree that non-Serb civilians

4 should be forced to go to the front lines and dig trenches during the

5 crossfire or during shelling. You don't agree with that either?

6 A. I didn't agree with that, but that was war, the circumstances of

7 war. Someone had to dig the trenches. The Serbs dug them. The Croats

8 and Muslims dug trenches in the front line which was under the command of

9 the Serb army, and the Serbs dug trenches where the territories of the

10 Muslim and Croat armies were. That is how it is in war.

11 Q. But you don't agree that someone should be forced to do that for

12 no other reason than their ethnicity. You don't agree with that?

13 A. Well, I certainly do not agree, but as I said, this was a time of

14 war, and the exigences of the circumstances of war is such that someone

15 had to do it. All those Muslims and Croats who had chosen to take up arms

16 and go and fight, they didn't dig trenches. Those who didn't choose to do

17 that had to do this. Someone had to do it. And in conditions of war, it

18 is the army that is making the decision.

19 Q. You didn't take part in any of those actions, the deportations,

20 forcing -- forcing people to dig trenches, the imprisonment of people?

21 You didn't take part in any of those?

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. And you didn't take part in evicting people or taking their houses

24 strictly because of their ethnic backgrounds? You didn't take part in any

25 of that?

Page 14684

1 A. No, I didn't.

2 Q. And isn't that the reason why you didn't join the SDS, because

3 that's what the SDS was doing? Isn't that true, sir? You didn't like

4 those SDS policies.

5 A. I cannot say whether the SDS did it when the war started. When

6 the war started, all the parties got involved in the war, and irrespective

7 of who belonged to what party, they had to get involved in the war.

8 Q. But those SDS policies that I just mentioned of deportation which

9 you've previously discussed, and detaining prisoners and taking houses,

10 you didn't believe in any of those policies. That's why you later joined

11 the SDP?

12 A. By choice, since I became of age was on the far left, and the

13 politics of all other parties inclined towards the right was something

14 which was not for me. We heard in Bosnia not only the SDP. We had the

15 HDZ and the SDA. The same three parties but parties of different

16 ethnicities, of different people.

17 Q. Yes. But strictly we're talking about the SDS. You didn't agree

18 with those policies of the SDS that I've just mentioned?

19 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

21 MR. PANTELIC: I must object, because my impression is that all

22 this line of questioning are very confusing to this witness. In

23 particular, I think the Prosecution should be more specific when he is

24 make any reference to SDS. Time period, level of SDS, which kind of

25 issues or policies so that this person, this witness, can be aware of the

Page 14685

1 frame of the area of questions. Otherwise, it's too general, and it

2 doesn't seem that it will be used as the evidence in these proceedings if

3 we are following with these general terms.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, your objection is not accepted,

5 because the questions of the Prosecutor are quite specific, especially if

6 you look at page 39, line 20.

7 Mr. Weiner, please continue.

8 MR. WEINER:

9 Q. My question was: But those SDS policies of deportation,

10 imprisonment based on ethnicity, taking of homes, forcing people to dig

11 trenches during warfare on the front lines, you didn't agree with those

12 SDS policies; correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 MR. WEINER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination, Mr. Lukic.

16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Lukic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vukovic, good morning. The Prosecutor asked

19 you whether in front of the pensioners' building you saw a large number of

20 people going as part of a work detail on their assignments. I would like

21 you to clarify for us the term the Prosecutor used, "A large number."

22 What was the number that you saw assembling in front of the pensioners'

23 house on the average to go to work?

24 A. I cannot give you a precise number, but approximately, as far as I

25 could see, conclude, there were between 40 and 50 people there who

Page 14686

1 assembled there every morning and who would then be assigned to different

2 work, not only in the town of Samac but also throughout the territory of

3 Samac municipality.

4 Q. The Prosecutor also asked you today about the repair of windows,

5 the glazing work. Was any difference being made when it came to the

6 glazing of windows in relation to the houses, whether the houses belonged

7 to Muslims, Croats, or Serbs? Were all the windows glazed irrespective of

8 the ethnicity of their owners?

9 A. First of all, we had to glaze all the residential houses, the

10 living quarters throughout the city of Samac irrespective of whether the

11 owners were Croat, Serb, or Muslim.

12 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Later when the nylons were being placed

13 there were any differences being made between the different owners of the

14 houses on that basis?

15 A. We in the civil defense staff made no distinction whatsoever

16 between the citizens in Samac irrespective of what ethnic background they

17 were.

18 Q. Speaking on the subject you mentioned to the Prosecutor that the

19 group, the work detail repairing these facilities, these buildings, was

20 led by Ismet Ramusovic. You said yesterday but please repeat what you

21 said now. What is he by ethnicity?

22 A. I said that Ismet Ramusovic concretely led this particular group

23 but he was greatly assisted by Trivo Lukic. These are two men in the

24 civil defence staff who could do the -- such construction work and Ismet

25 Ramusovic was a Muslim and Trivo Lukic a Serb.

Page 14687

1 Q. When you say that they were knowledgeable in these but in that

2 particular work, was that the reason why they were assigned to that

3 particular job, their speciality?

4 A. We in the civil defence staff had agreed that each should do the

5 work that he can do best.

6 Q. Thank you. The Prosecutor asked you a question in connection with

7 the property of your family and the house. Yesterday you mentioned the

8 name of Ibrahim Karic, a plumber who you said had worked in Samac

9 throughout the war and who is still living in Samac today. Have you any

10 information as to whether that man had ever been evicted from his house?

11 A. No, which is to say I know that he had never been evicted from his

12 house.

13 Q. Do you know the brothers Pistoljevic, Hasan and Mustafa.

14 A. Yes, I do. They're my neighbours.

15 Q. What are they by ethnicity?

16 A. They're Muslims.

17 Q. Are they living in Samac today?

18 A. Yes. Yes, they are.

19 Q. Do you know whether their real property, their houses in which

20 they live had ever been seized from them and has anyone lived in their

21 houses apart from them?

22 A. No, never. In fact, at the beginning of the war, Mustafa

23 distributed milk and bread, drove it around the city of Samac and

24 distributed it to the people there. He was working on that.

25 Q. He was working for the Red Cross, was he not?

Page 14688

1 A. Yes, he was.

2 Q. Did any other Muslims and Muslim families remain in your

3 neighbourhood who never left their houses?

4 A. There was a family three houses down from my house, and there was

5 another family five houses down from my house who remained there

6 throughout that period.

7 Q. Thank you. Do you perhaps know Ilija Ilic?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. What is he by ethnicity?

10 A. A Serb.

11 Q. Do you know -- are you aware of the fact that during the war this

12 man left Samac?

13 A. Yes, I know that.

14 Q. Do you -- are you aware of the fact that third parties were moved

15 into his apartment although it was a Serb apartment during the war?

16 A. No, I don't know.

17 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that, Your Honour.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Do you know --

20 MR. WEINER: This isn't cross-examination. This is redirect. If

21 you look at his last --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Lukic, the objection is sustained.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Right. I will rephrase my question.

24 Q. I asked you about Dusko Dragicevic. What is he by ethnicity?

25 A. A Serb.

Page 14689

1 Q. Was he in Samac during the war?

2 A. He was there for a short time, then he fled.

3 Q. Did anyone move into his flat?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. And do you know Rade Radovanovic?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. What is he by ethnicity?

8 A. A Serb.

9 Q. Do you know anything about his whereabouts and his property during

10 the war?

11 A. I don't know anything about his movement, whereabouts during the

12 war.

13 Q. The Prosecutor asked you towards the end of his questioning a few

14 questions about the Cafe AS. Did you, before the war broke out, see any

15 meetings held, any gatherings organised in the Cafe AS?

16 MR. WEINER: That's outside the scope of cross-examination. I

17 asked him about his attending the Cafe AS, being frequent before and after

18 the war.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Do you know that catering establishments were prohibited to

22 operate in the city of Samac for a while after the beginning of the war?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know, that you have direct knowledge of the fact that the

25 Cafe AS also was closed for a while, for a period?

Page 14690

1 A. Yes, I know, but I don't know in which period.

2 MR. WEINER: That's leading. He can ask when, but that's totally

3 leading.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can rephrase your question, but it did

5 arise in cross-examination, so -- it's just that it's a leading question.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 Q. Did the Cafe AS work throughout the war, after the war conflict

8 broke out?

9 A. I know that Cafe AS did not work for a while, but for how long,

10 for how many days, I don't know.

11 Q. The Prosecutor asked you questions related to trench digging and

12 the death of these Muslims who were digging trenches at the front line.

13 Did your son go to the front line during the war?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In which capacity?

16 A. As a soldier. A soldier. Throughout the war.

17 Q. During his stay at the front line, was your son exposed to enemy

18 fire?

19 A. There was 50 metres between the two lines, 50 metres.

20 Q. Did any of his friends get killed at the front line during the

21 war? Do you know?

22 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that, Your Honours. It's irrelevant.

23 Under the Geneva Convention and the rules of war, there are different

24 rules for soldiers and civilians.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

Page 14691

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honours, but a

2 distinction should be made between trench digging as it is seen by the

3 Prosecution and trench digging as presented by the Defence. It can be

4 established very precisely in the Geneva Conventions, but it can also be

5 defined like the way in which it is taken within the war obligation in

6 terms of tasks that are carried out for the military. That is one

7 subject. And then on the other hand, if somebody is intentionally exposed

8 to trench digging, that could be a violation of the Geneva Conventions. I

9 wanted to draw your attention to the danger involved of being at the front

10 line -- involved in being at the front line, but perhaps we can leave it

11 at that.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Lukic, separate and apart from a legal debate

13 on the applicability of the Geneva Conventions and so on and so forth, I

14 just don't think that this particular question and comparison of what the

15 witness's son was doing as a soldier versus those who were digging

16 trenches as part of work obligation, I really don't think this is an

17 appropriate line of questioning at this juncture. It seems to me it's

18 more for legal argument.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I fully accept what Her Honour

20 Judge Williams said.

21 Thank you. I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?

23 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I have a couple of questions which was --

24 well, the issue was raised during the cross-examination.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: You are supposed to ask this witness before the

Page 14692

1 cross-examination.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Actually, the topic which was in chief was not

3 raised.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Then in cross-examination --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: This is not your witness.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I understand, but there are some issues which

8 is related to my client, and according to your instructions, if I well

9 remember, you said that each Defence team can pose certain questions in

10 redirect when it was -- it touches the interest of its particular client.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: No, that was -- yes, before the Prosecution

12 cross-examines.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. But it was not a matter during

14 the chief examination. It was a matter during the examination --

15 cross-examination. And I remember that you said that we shall be allowed,

16 the other Defence teams, if something which will be new, completely new in

17 cross-examination, that we ought to clarify that.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have reviewed what happened before, what

22 was said before. Counsel for other accused persons can put questions to

23 the witness after examination-in-chief, before cross-examination.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Right. If anything arises after cross-examination

Page 14693

1 which may touch any of the accused, then those counsel who didn't call

2 that particular witness may put questions to the witness before

3 re-examination by the counsel who called the witness.

4 In fairness to you, Mr. Pantelic, the Trial Chamber will allow you

5 put the questions, but please follow the correct procedure the next time.

6 Because it puts Mr. Lukic in a difficult situation, because this is a

7 witness for his client, you see. So you may put your questions, and

8 depending on whether anything arises, the Trial Chamber may allow

9 Mr. Lukic to clarify.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I do -- I'm grateful to the instruction of

11 the Trial Chamber, and I don't believe because these are mostly political

12 issues of SDS which was raised during the cross-examination, so I don't

13 believe it will be -- but let's see. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vukovic, I am Defence counsel for Blagoje

16 Simic. My name is Igor Pantelic. I'm just going to put a few questions

17 to you.

18 The Prosecutor asked you about what you knew about Biljana

19 Plavsic, whether you knew that recently she admitted to having committing

20 certain crimes. She did that before this Tribunal, but my question to you

21 is the following: What is your perception of the war crime of

22 persecution? Briefly, do you know about that? Do you know what that is?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, that's clearly out of the bounds of

24 what this witness can answer.

25 MR. PANTELIC:

Page 14694

1 Q. Mr. Vukovic, we are talking about Samac in 1992 and 1993. The

2 Prosecutor asked you about some positions of the SDS. I am asking you the

3 following now: In Samac in 1992 and 1993, to the best of your knowledge,

4 the SDS, the local SDS, did they advocate in any way a policy of

5 persecuting the non-Serb population in Samac? Do you have any such

6 knowledge?

7 A. I followed that quite closely during those days before the war

8 conflict, and I could not notice that, that there were such cases in the

9 territory of the municipality of Samac.

10 Q. Also in relation to the Prosecutor's line of questioning, he asked

11 you whether you were in favour -- or, rather, whether you were against the

12 programme of the SDS that meant a division among peoples, partition, et

13 cetera.

14 Tell me, do you have any knowledge about whether the SDS ever in

15 its political programme or officially espoused the idea of partitioning

16 peoples along ethnic lines in Bosnia-Herzegovina? I'm not talking about

17 territories now. I'm talking about the partitioning of peoples.

18 A. I did not have the opportunity of seeing the programme of the SDS,

19 but I did not hear about that from the leadership of the SDS in Samac and

20 in the territory of the municipality of Samac, that something like that

21 was advocated.

22 Q. In relation to the same subject that was raised by the Prosecutor,

23 that is the Prosecutor's own point of view, and they have the right to do

24 that in relation to the position of the SDS.

25 MR. WEINER: I would object to that. That's a speech Your Honour.

Page 14695

1 He's talking about the Prosecutor's point of view and they have the right

2 to do so. If he wants to ask a question, let him ask a question.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Vukovic, do you know that in 1992 and 1993 the

4 work of political parties in Republika Srpska was frozen? Do you know

5 that? Are you aware of that fact?

6 A. No, I'm not.

7 Q. And the last topic, because the Prosecutor asked you about that

8 inter alia and you were responding to those questions, you were saying

9 what you knew, of course, you said that whoever did -- went to the front

10 line did not have work obligation, et cetera. Now I'm asking you the

11 following: In 1992 and 1993 in Samac, as regards work obligation, were

12 Serbs included in it?

13 A. Yes. Work obligation applied to the persons who made inventories

14 of goods in shops. So work obligation is not only to dig trenches or to

15 do other things. We engaged everyone who could work and who were

16 incapable of going out to fight a war with a rifle in their hands.

17 Regardless of ethnicity, that is.

18 Q. In relation to that, Mr. Vukovic, do you know whether members of

19 the Serb people in Samac, within their work obligation, went to the front

20 line to dig trenches?

21 A. I don't know about that.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, anything?

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. No further questions, Your

25 Honour.

Page 14696

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Mr. Vukovic, for giving

2 evidence to the Trial Chamber. You are now finished. You may leave the

3 courtroom.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, who have made it

5 possible for me to speak about what I know and within the scope of my

6 possibility, and I would like to thank you all and especially Miro Tadic.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to take the opportunity

11 of this break. We noticed on the official transcript we got for the last

12 days that there was the name of the protected witness in brackets. I

13 don't know whether that is in keeping with regular procedure, but I

14 remember that during the Prosecution case there was only a sign that was

15 put there instead of the actual name of the protected witness. But in the

16 official transcripts, I'm saying that the name and surname of the

17 protected witness are up in the corner. I wish to draw your attention to

18 that fact.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Lukic, I'm informed that the matter has

21 been picked up, and it will be corrected.

22 Good morning. Please make your solemn declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good day. Can I start now? Can I

24 start now?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

Page 14697

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please sit down.

4 WITNESS: MLADEN BORBELI

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examined by Mr. Krgovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. Sir, could you please give us your name?

10 A. Mladen Borbeli.

11 Q. I would just like to ask you the following: Could you please

12 pause for a few seconds before answering my question. Since you and I

13 speak the same language, we understand each other, but we should not

14 overlap each other. We need to facilitate the work of the interpreters.

15 So could you please just pause for a few seconds. So when you hear my

16 question, just pause for a few seconds before answering.

17 A. All right.

18 Q. Sir, could you please tell me when and where you were born?

19 A. I was born in Prud by Bosanski Samac.

20 Q. What year?

21 A. 1932, on the 12th of April.

22 Q. Tell me, are you married?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you have any children?

25 A. No.

Page 14698

1 Q. Tell me, sir, what is your ethnic background?

2 A. I'm a Croat.

3 Q. Mr. Borbeli, tell me, what was the ethnic background of your

4 parents?

5 A. They were Croats.

6 Q. Sir, Mr. Borbeli, since when has your family lived in Bosanski

7 Samac?

8 A. My ancestors, my grandparents, came from Italy in 1904.

9 Q. Sir, could you please tell me what kind of education you've had?

10 A. I've trained as a machine locksmith.

11 Q. So that is a craft isn't it?

12 A. Yes that of a machine locksmith.

13 Q. Where did you complete your schooling?

14 A. In Bosanski Samac.

15 Q. Tell me, sir, were you employed?

16 A. Yes, at the Mebos company.

17 Q. In Bosanski Samac?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Until when did you work there?

20 A. I worked there until 1988. And after that, I retired.

21 Q. So you've been retired since 1988?

22 A. I didn't hear you.

23 Q. So you've been retired since then, since 1988; right?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. Tell me, sir, did you do your military service?

Page 14699

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Where and in which year?

3 A. In Sombor in 1952.

4 Q. After completing your military service, did you have a military

5 assignment, a wartime assignment?

6 A. It was at the Mebos company in the later period.

7 Q. Was your name erased from military records after awhile?

8 A. Yes, 20 years ago.

9 Q. Sir, were you a member of any political party in Yugoslavia?

10 A. No, never.

11 Q. Were you a member of the League of Communists?

12 A. No.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: Sorry. Apologise. I asked the witness about the

14 former Yugoslavia.

15 Q. So when I asked you, I was referring to the former Yugoslavia.

16 A. I don't understand.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe just repeat your question.

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Were you a member of a political party in the former Yugoslavia?

20 A. No. In the former Yugoslavia, no.

21 Q. After the multi-party system was established in Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina, were you a member of any party?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Sir, tell me, where do you live?

25 A. I live in Samac.

Page 14700

1 Q. Where is your flat? In which street?

2 A. It is in Pera Bosic street number 20.

3 Q. Tell me, who gave you this apartment?

4 A. It was given me from the work organisation in which I worked.

5 Q. Was it made available to you for your use or was it your

6 property?

7 A. I was given it for my use.

8 Q. Did you then purchase it later?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Sir, I'll ask you something about developments in Samac

11 immediately prior to the outbreak of the war there. Did you notice in

12 Samac, towards the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992, that the

13 relations between people had cooled? Did you notice any change in the

14 behaviour of the people in Bosanski Samac? Can you describe that for us

15 briefly?

16 A. Well, before the war, perhaps a month before the war, one could

17 already discern and notice that people were dividing along ethnic lines.

18 The Muslims and Croats would be together. But I socialised with all of

19 them, with all the three ethnic groups.

20 Q. Could any tension be felt in Samac, and had the relations between

21 people deteriorated? Were there any conflicts from what you could see?

22 A. Well, the tension was not very high.

23 Q. Tell me, did you hear or see anyone [Realtime transcript read in

24 error "finance"] erect any barricades in Samac in spring of 1992?

25 A. I heard -- I heard that barricades had been put up the exit from

Page 14701

1 Samac, and they were there -- were there in existence for two or three

2 days.

3 Q. Did you hear who had erected those barricades?

4 A. The Muslims had erected them.

5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I have a correction to

6 the transcript. That is page 56, line 12, my question was did you hear or

7 see anyone erect any barricades in Samac in the spring of 1992, just a

8 correction of that word. The witness has already replied.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that will be corrected.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Sir, did you hear about any shooting in the city of Samac on which

12 occasion any of your acquaintances were wounded?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Will you tell us what it was that you heard?

15 A. I heard that three people had been wounded in a luxury car, and

16 these were acquaintances of mine. When I -- and then I went to the scene

17 of that the next day, and I could see for myself.

18 Q. Do you know the names of these people who were wounded?

19 A. Excuse me. I beg your pardon?

20 Q. Do you know the names of the people who got wounded?

21 A. Mersad, Danilo and Cizman and Tota as they were known by their

22 nicknames.

23 Q. So Mersad and Danilo, these are two persons? So Mersad is one

24 person. Danilo is a second person, and Tota is a third person? Sir,

25 are you aware of the fact that prior to the outbreak of the war in Samac

Page 14702

1 on April 16 and 17, 1992, people moved away their families from Samac?

2 A. Yes. People got their families away, also some ten to 15 days

3 before the war, and they would go to Croatia. Buses would arrive from

4 Doboj, and then they would be bused across the Sava River to Croatia.

5 That was some ten to 15 days before the war started.

6 Q. Tell me, did they -- was it the members of all ethnicities that

7 took away their families or was this the practice of just one ethnic

8 group?

9 A. No. This was the practice of all the ethnicities.

10 Q. Mr. Borbeli, please tell me, do you know Miroslav Tadic?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. How long had you known him?

13 A. I've known him for 30 years.

14 Q. Do you know what Miroslav Tadic did before the war?

15 A. As far as I know, he worked for the Red Cross.

16 Q. I apologise. I was asking about the period before the war.

17 A. Oh, before the war.

18 Q. So since the time you met him and -- what had he done?

19 A. He worked in the mechanical engineering school as a teacher.

20 Q. And after that?

21 A. After the war.

22 Q. Before the war. After he worked at the secondary school, did he

23 set up a private business or --

24 A. Yes. He had a store, and he also had a catering establishment.

25 Q. Was this catering establishment the As Cafe?

Page 14703

1 A. I did not understand the question.

2 Q. Is it Cafe AS the catering establishment?

3 A. Yes it is the Cafe AS catering establishment.

4 Q. Tell me, did you frequent the Cafe AS?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. How often would you go to As Cafe before the war?

7 A. Well, not very frequently before the war. And also during the war

8 I would only drop by occasionally. And after the war, I went there much

9 more frequently.

10 Q. Tell me, in this period before the war, when you went to the As

11 Cafe, who were the patrons of the cafe? Was it members of the just one

12 ethnicity, or Samac citizens of all ethnicities came.

13 Q. Citizens from Samac came, villagers from the nearby surrounding

14 villages also came. I knew some of the people. Some of them I didn't and

15 that's the way it was.

16 Q. Did Muslims and Croats and Serbs come to the cafe?

17 A. Yes, they all did.

18 Q. Mr. Borbeli, before the war, before the war hostilities broke out

19 in Samac, had you heard about the existence of the 4th Detachment?

20 A. Yes, I had.

21 Q. What was it that you heard? Was this the 4th Detachment? Is it a

22 military unit? What is it?

23 A. It is a Territorial Defence formation which was supposed to

24 protect the citizens in the event of war, as far as I am knowledgeable on

25 the subject.

Page 14704

1 Q. Did you know who the commander of this 4th Detachment was?

2 A. Radoslav Antic was the commander. And I knew him by sight.

3 Q. Do you know whether Simo Zaric was a member of the 4th Detachment?

4 A. Yes, he was.

5 Q. Do you know what position he held there in the 4th Detachment?

6 A. I don't know. I wouldn't know that.

7 Q. Do you know whether Miroslav Tadic belonged to the 4th Detachment

8 or did you know at the time, rather?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 Q. Did you know before the war where the headquarters of the 4th

11 Detachment was?

12 A. The headquarters was across the street from the SUP.

13 Q. To the best of your knowledge, to the best of your knowledge, if

14 you are not certain of a fact, please feel free to say so. Say, "I'm not

15 sure. I don't know."

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Mr. Borbeli, I'm now going to ask you a few questions about the

18 events which took place in the night between the 16th and 17th of April,

19 1992. Where were you that evening between the 16th and the 17th of April,

20 1992?

21 A. I was in my flat.

22 Q. In the evening that evening did you notice anything or hear

23 anything?

24 A. I went out into the street and I noticed groups of people with

25 arms, with weapons, younger people. So I looked at them, and I told them,

Page 14705

1 "Throw those rifles away and go home, children." They just stared back

2 at me standing there.

3 Q. Of what ethnicity were these people?

4 A. I think these were youths. These were lads of Muslim ethnicity.

5 Q. Did you recognise anyone amongst them?

6 A. Dark had already fallen. These were youngsters. In fact, I did

7 recognise one of them. He had worked for Bicic. I don't know his name,

8 but he worked as a waiter there.

9 Q. Can you describe for us how this young man looked?

10 A. He was a blonde lad.

11 Q. Did anyone come and address this group of people while you were

12 there? Did someone come up to them and then leave the place?

13 A. When I went back towards my flat, a man by the nickname of Ibela

14 came by, and he was some sort of leader.

15 Q. What did you do then?

16 A. I went up to my flat.

17 Q. Later, after this event, did you hear any shooting?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Did you go out from your flat that evening?

20 A. When the shooting started? No, I didn't.

21 Q. Did you remain in your flat all evening or did you go out

22 anywhere?

23 A. I remained in the flat all the time.

24 Q. The next morning, did anyone come to your building, to your

25 entrance or in front of your flat? Did any men come?

Page 14706

1 A. They came in the morning around 9.00. I went down and opened the

2 door for them. They came in, and I could see that they were army

3 personnel. They were in camouflage uniforms. They then started to climb

4 upstairs, and they told me to tell all the tenants to line up by the

5 door -- to be in front of their doors and to hold their identity cards in

6 their hands, to produce them.

7 Q. Did they -- these men tell you why they had come to your building?

8 What -- were they looking for something?

9 A. They came to look for weapons.

10 Q. Did they search all the flats?

11 A. They searched all the flats. And if the tenants of some flats

12 were not at home, they would break down the door and would go into such

13 flats and search them, scour the place.

14 Q. Did they enter your flat?

15 A. Yes, they did.

16 Q. Will you describe what happened? How did they behave? What did

17 they do?

18 A. Well, they behaved correctly, in my view. They asked me if I had

19 weapons. I said: "No, I'm a pensioner. I don't need that."

20 With the three of them was a lad whom I didn't know, and he said,

21 "You don't have to go into the flat of this Mladja [phoen]." But I said

22 anyway, "Please come in and have a look for yourselves." So one of them

23 entered my flat and searched it.

24 Q. Sir, tell me, in your building were the tenants there members of

25 all ethnicities, of all ethnic groups, or of just one ethnic group?

Page 14707

1 A. In my building there lived people belonging to all the three

2 ethnic groups.

3 Q. Were all the flats searched?

4 A. All the flats were searched?

5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: May I just venture a suggestion. Mr. Krgovic has

8 established that -- from this witness that a group of armed men came to

9 the flat, and is now seeming to move into -- on to a different topic.

10 What he hasn't established is who these men were, merely that they had

11 camouflage uniforms and were armed. Furthermore, the witness seems to say

12 that with the three of them there was one lad that he didn't know.

13 Presumably, therefore, he knew the others. So if these people can be

14 identified in the context of this case it's important because of the

15 matters in the indictment. If this witness knows who these men were,

16 whether they were locals or whether they came from else where, what

17 ethnicity they were, for that evidence to be of value to you, you should

18 know who the men were, beyond the fact that they had a gun and were in

19 camouflage uniform.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I haven't completed this topic,

22 actually. I'll get to that. Perhaps I just went off on a tangent a bit,

23 but I'll get back to it.

24 Q. Sir, these men who were there, which accent did they have and what

25 did you infer on the basis of the way they spoke?

Page 14708

1 A. I noticed that they spoke with a Serbian accent, coming from

2 Serbia proper.

3 Q. You said that they wore camouflage uniforms. Were they masked?

4 Did they have something on their heads?

5 A. They were masked with green and black paint on their faces, and

6 they also wore berets. The beret was --

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the colour.

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. The man who addressed you did he also wear a camouflage uniform

10 like the others?

11 A. He had glasses, dark glasses so I could not recognise him.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, the interpreters did not hear the

13 witness when he described the berets. Perhaps he talked of the colour.

14 Just ask him to clarify.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Sir, tell me, what was the colour of those berets if you

17 remember? I heard you say black, but --

18 A. Black, yes.

19 Q. This man who spoke to you, did he also wear a camouflage uniform,

20 and was he masked like the rest were?

21 A. He was not masked, but he did have weapons.

22 Q. What about his uniform? Was it also a camouflage uniform like the

23 rest?

24 A. No. No. He had a blue jacket.

25 Q. Tell me, sir --

Page 14709

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Krgovic, before you leave that topic, even

2 though the witness had said he didn't know who this lad was, could we find

3 out whether he was a local lad or somebody from elsewhere.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours, please, related to the

5 question Your Honour has just raised now. The witness did say that he was

6 addressed by the name of Mladja, which I suspect might be the diminutive

7 of this witness's first name and indicates some sort of knowledge of the

8 person and that, with respect, goes side by side with Your Honour's

9 question. If that could be clarified, please.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Borbeli, this man who spoke to you, was he a local, a person

12 from Samac? How did he speak?

13 A. He spoke Bosnian. He was not a Serb from Serbia proper. But I

14 could not recognise him.

15 Q. Mr. Borbeli, tell me, these apartments that were broken into and

16 that had been empty, were they all locked irrespective of ethnicity or was

17 a selection made, so to speak.

18 A. Apartments were barged into, all of them regardless. The

19 apartments of all the people who were not at home.

20 Q. Tell me, Mr. Borbeli, do you know Maslic?

21 A. I did not hear you.

22 Q. Do you know Velimir Maslic?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Does Velimir Maslic live in your building?

25 A. Velimir Maslic lived in my building, underneath me, on the third

Page 14710

1 floor.

2 Q. Was his apartment broken into?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Sir, tell me, on that day did you go out?

5 A. No.

6 Q. The next day, on the 18th of April, did you notice any vehicles in

7 the street where you lived?

8 A. I noticed a vehicle by the building where I lived, a military

9 vehicle. And there was a soldier up there with a helmet on his head. He

10 was shouting. "Hand over your weapons. Nothing will happen to you."

11 Q. Did people did -- did people surrender their weapons? Did you see

12 that?

13 A. I didn't see that, but I heard it.

14 Q. That day when you saw that vehicle, you live in the street of Pera

15 Bosic. Did you see Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric by that vehicle or in

16 the street that day?

17 A. I did not see them.

18 Q. Mr. Borbeli, I'm going to move on to a new subject now. I'm going

19 to ask you something about living conditions in Samac after the 17th of

20 April.

21 During those first few days after the war broke out, were bakeries

22 working and food shops in general? And what about the bread and milk

23 supply during those first few days, generally speaking?

24 A. When the war broke out, bakeries and other productions were not

25 operating for a few days, two or three days.

Page 14711

1 Q. How was shopping organised? How did you obtain bread and milk?

2 A. A refrigerator truck came, and bread was distributed from the

3 truck free of charge.

4 Q. Did you take that bread?

5 A. Yes, I did, for two days.

6 Q. What about other food products? Did you see anything else? I

7 mean, did you get anything else? I'm sorry.

8 A. Well, yes. Milk was also given out and other products, other

9 food.

10 Q. Did you get eggs?

11 A. Well, I got eggs from some acquaintances on the second day of the

12 war.

13 Q. You said awhile ago that you live in a building where people of

14 different ethnic backgrounds live. Did all of your neighbours receive

15 everything that you got, bread and milk, et cetera? Was there any

16 discrimination?

17 A. Everybody got it. Everybody put their names down and went they're

18 to pick it up.

19 Q. Tell me, sir, Mr. Borbeli, during those first few days after the

20 16th and 17th of April, 1992, did you hear of any order that white ribbons

21 had to be worn?

22 A. I did not hear about that.

23 Q. Did you notice when you went out into the street, then, that

24 somebody wore white ribbons?

25 A. I did notice. I noticed two citizens who had those white

Page 14712

1 ribbons. But this did not last long, only for two days.

2 Q. Do you know what the ethnic backgrounds of those two persons were,

3 the ones you noticed?

4 A. I couldn't say that.

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Krgovic. Are we going to find out

6 where the ribbons were being worn, on which part of the body?

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That was precisely my next question.

8 Q. Could you please describe this for us, Mr. Borbeli? How did these

9 people wear these white ribbons, where?

10 A. From their shoulder downwards. They were about 20 centimetres

11 long and about two and a half centimetres wide.

12 Q. Did you notice any soldiers also wearing white ribbons?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Apparently I missed it unfortunately. Mr. Weiner

15 saw it. Apparently, the witness made some gesture and indicated and

16 perhaps that should be entered into the transcript so that -- or perhaps

17 the witness can be asked again to demonstrate.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: To indicate, yes, how these were worn. He can even

19 stand up for everybody to see.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Sir, could you please show this to us on your own shoulder, how

22 these ribbons were worn?

23 A. Here and then downwards. The length was 20 centimetres.

24 Q. Approximately how wide?

25 A. Two and a half to three centimetres.

Page 14713

1 Q. May the record reflect that the witness showed his right shoulder

2 and that the ribbon was worn on the top of the right shoulder and then

3 down along the upper arm?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Tell me, where were they pinned, these white ribbons, at the top

7 or the bottom?

8 A. They were pinned at the top, at the top.

9 Q. Mr. Borbeli, I'm going to ask you something. You were born before

10 the war; is that right? I mean the Second World War?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. If I could interject at this point before we

14 leave this point of white ribbons. Mr. Krgovic asked the witness a

15 question: "Did you notice any soldiers also wearing white ribbons." And

16 the witness said yes, yes he did.

17 What remains unclear from that, therefore, is whether the people

18 he did see wearing the white ribbons were in fact civilians or at least it

19 implies that.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Do you follow -- thank you.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. He can clarify that.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Sir, I asked you: These two persons you saw wearing white

25 ribbons, were they soldiers or civilians?

Page 14714

1 A. Civilians.

2 Q. Tell me, Mr. Borbeli, did you wear these white ribbons?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did somebody order you to wear a white ribbon?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you see other civilians who, like you, did not wear white

7 ribbons? Were there other such people?

8 A. Yes, there were other such people, but this was only for a short

9 while, only two or three days.

10 Q. These soldiers you saw, how did they wear the white ribbons, the

11 same way you described it just now or was it different the way they wore

12 them? Did they also wear them here on their epaulettes or in some other

13 way?

14 A. Only here on the shoulder, nowhere else.

15 Q. These ribbons that you saw that the civilians had, they were not

16 armbands going around the left arm, for example?

17 A. No. I didn't see anything like that.

18 Q. Sir, you were born before the Second World War; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You know that there were Jews in Samac before the Second World

21 War?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you remember that these fellow citizens of yours, when the

24 Germans took the town, were forced to clean the streets and wear wide

25 yellow armbands around their arms?

Page 14715

1 A. Yes, I did see those yellow bands on the shoulder -- I mean, no,

2 not on the shoulder, on the arm.

3 Q. These ribbons that you saw these civilians wearing, did they look

4 like the armbands that the Jews wore before the Second World War?

5 A. No, no.

6 Q. Mr. Borbeli, I'm going to ask you this: These first few days, did

7 shelling start, and if so, when did the shelling of Samac start?

8 A. Immediately. The shelling started immediately.

9 Q. Tell me, did you notice anything in town? Were people leaving

10 Samac during those days after the 16th of April?

11 A. People were leaving Samac and going wherever they could.

12 Q. Did you notice that in the streets, that the town was getting

13 emptier?

14 A. At first you couldn't really notice it but later on one could

15 notice it.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please if I may be of assistance to

17 the Chamber. The witness says people were leaving Samac in the initial

18 days after the attack. For that evidence to be of benefit to you or the

19 Defence or the Prosecution, you've got to know of it was all people,

20 members of all three ethnicities or whether it was a certain group.

21 Otherwise it doesn't really assist either the Defence or the Prosecution

22 or the Chamber. So that needs to be clarified.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to thank my colleague

24 for his assistance.

25 Q. Mr. Borbeli, these people who were leaving Samac, what was their

Page 14716

1 ethnic background? Did they belong only to one ethnic group or --

2 A. All three ethnic groups. People were leaving Samac, people from

3 all three ethnic groups.

4 Q. Your neighbours, these people who were leaving town, did they tell

5 you why they were leaving Samac?

6 A. They didn't say.

7 Q. Do you know of any reason why?

8 A. I think out of fear, because of the shelling and so on.

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the

10 time has come for the break now.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will take our break and continue at 12.50.

12 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Borbeli, if you hear me, the protection -- witness protection

17 unit told me that you are not feeling very well. If you are not able to

18 continue, please feel free to say so. Or if you should at any time feel

19 that you are too tired or that your concentration is declining, please

20 tell us so and we shall, of course, see to it that the Trial Chamber

21 takes an appropriate decision given your age and condition.

22 A. I think that I'm unable to continue.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Krgovic, maybe a longer break?

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] At any rate, I will have a lot of

25 other questions too for this witness, and since I worked with him for

Page 14717

1 quite some time during these days, I know him by now. He has already

2 complained of his health condition, and I believe knowing the witness,

3 that it would be better for him to continue on Monday, because by that

4 time he would have sufficiently recovered.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Then the Trial Chamber is of the view that the

7 witness can stand down, and we can proceed with him on Monday when he's

8 able to.

9 Is there another witness?

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Not at this moment. The next

11 witness will be arriving tomorrow morning, and we will be ready to start

12 with a new witness on Monday morning. Should any further complications

13 arise in the health condition of this witness, but any case, we will have

14 a witness ready for Monday morning.

15 [The witness stood down]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Next week it's afternoons.

17 Yes, Mr. --

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Just while we're on this very topic, I wonder if

19 the Defence could indicate the order of the next two witnesses that they

20 expect, two or three, if they have -- make sure there's no changes and so

21 that we can -- the Prosecution can make its own plans for the coming

22 witnesses.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. The Defence of

24 Miroslav Tadic has submitted a draft schedule of witnesses, and for the

25 time being, we have no changes whatsoever. So the next witness is the

Page 14718

1 witness with initials DW1/3, to be followed by Svetozar Vasovic, and after

2 him Dario Radic. The only problem, but then we have been promised by the

3 witness protection unit that this will be addressed, the Dario -- Dario

4 Radic was only subsequently included on the viva voce list of witnesses

5 because he did not have a passport. We found out in the meantime he's

6 been issued with a passport but now he's had a problem with the visa, but

7 we found out he will be able to present himself here next week. At any

8 rate, if it is all right, we wish him to be interrogated last of these

9 witnesses unless this problem is solved before that, in which case he will

10 be the first one that week.

11 We still have the two witnesses who should testify via videolink.

12 Of course the Trial Chamber is aware of that.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

14 MR. PANTELIC: And I do apologise, Your Honour. Maybe it was

15 escaped from my memory, but I think that according to the scheduling --

16 trial schedules that we have two consecutive weeks of morning sessions.

17 So maybe -- is it appropriate --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: No. You should always watch the court calendar as

19 it comes out, because there are so many trials now. So just watch the

20 court calendar as it comes out.

21 We will adjourn now and continue our proceedings on Monday.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.00 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of

24 January, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.

25