1 Tuesday, 11 March 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo
9 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber will issue the ruling on the next
10 batch of statements recorded under the provisions of Rule 92 bis. Further
11 to the ruling of the Trial Chamber on 20th February, we have considered
12 the statements submitted on behalf of the Defence of Mr. Miroslav Tadic
13 and Mr. Simo Zaric. The Trial Chamber has taken into account the accused
14 persons' right to call witnesses in support of their defence and the
15 Prosecution's right to test such evidence. The Trial Chamber rules as
17 Regarding the Defence of Mr. Miroslav Tadic, the statement
18 D114/3, by DW 3/3, which is under seal, is admitted into evidence.
19 Paragraphs 26 and 28 are struck out. The remainder of the evidence is
20 mostly cumulative and the witness will not be cross-examined.
21 The statement D115/3 by Mirka Petkovic is admitted into evidence.
22 However, paragraphs 24, 31, 32, the last sentence of paragraph 40, and the
23 rest of paragraph 46 after the first sentence will be struck out. The
24 witness will not be cross-examined.
25 The statement D116/3 by Zeljko Volasevic is admitted into
1 evidence. However, paragraph 7 and the last sentences of paragraphs 8 and
2 10 are struck out. This witness will come for cross-examination for one
3 and a half hours.
4 The statement of D117/3 by Stanko Bojic is admitted into evidence.
5 However, paragraphs 11 and 12 are struck out. The last sentence of
6 paragraph 10 is also struck out. The witness will give oral evidence on
7 matters contained in those paragraphs that are struck out, and one hour is
8 allowed for the oral evidence. Cross-examination is also allowed and
9 limited to one hour.
10 The statement D118/3 by Hasan Pistoljevic is admitted into
11 evidence. Paragraphs 17 and 18 are struck out. Oral evidence is allowed
12 for those -- for the contents of those paragraphs, for one hour, and
13 cross-examination is allowed for half an hour.
14 The statement D119/3, by Djordje Dujkovic is admitted into
15 evidence as character evidence only. Paragraphs 3 to 14 inclusive are
16 struck out, as they discuss matters other than character. This witness
17 will not be cross-examined.
18 The statement D120/3 by Ilija Mihajle is admitted into evidence.
19 However, paragraphs 14 to 18 inclusive are struck out. Oral evidence is
20 allowed, for one hour, and cross-examination is also allowed, for one
22 The statement D121/3 by Marko Kuresevic is admitted into evidence.
23 The Prosecution is allowed to cross-examination for one hour.
24 The statement D122/3 by Muhamed Atic, a character witness, is
25 admitted into evidence. Paragraph 6 and 7, which discuss other matters,
1 are struck out.
2 The statement D123/3 by Abdulah Aslanovic, a character witness,
3 is admitted into evidence. No cross-examination.
4 On statements submitted on behalf of Mr. Simo Zaric, the statement
5 D33/4 by Djuro Progomet is admitted into evidence. Paragraphs 13, 15, 16,
6 and 17 are struck out. There shall be no cross-examination.
7 The statement D34/4 by Fadil Topcagic is admitted into evidence.
8 However, paragraphs 41, 42, 46, 49, 57, 58, and 68, in addition to that,
9 in paragraph 39, the last sentence, starting from "inside" up to "Crkvina"
10 are struck off. Paragraph 61 is admitted only up to the words "measures
11 about this crime." The rest of that paragraph is struck out. The witness
12 will give oral evidence on matters contained in those paragraphs that are
13 struck out, and oral evidence will be allowed for two hours.
14 Cross-examination is allowed for two and a half hours.
15 The statement D35/4 by Petar Karlovic is admitted into evidence.
16 However, paragraphs 33 and 34 are struck out. Cross-examination by the
17 Prosecution is allowed and restricted to the events of the 16th up to the
18 end of the 17th of April, 1992, and cross-examination will be allowed for
19 one hour.
20 The statement D36/4 by Fatima Zaric is admitted into evidence
21 only partially. The last paragraph -- the last part of paragraph 19,
22 starting with the words "about 20 minutes" up to the end, and paragraphs
23 20 to 25, paragraphs 27, 28, and 30, are struck out. These paragraphs
24 discuss the whereabouts and activities of Simo Zaric. The witness will
25 give oral testimony on the events from the 16th to the 20th of April,
1 1992, and one and a half hours is allowed for that. Cross-examination
2 will be allowed for one hour.
3 The statement D37/4 by Vaso Antic is admitted into evidence.
4 Paragraphs 15, 19, 24, and 25 are struck out. The witness will give oral
5 testimony on the events described in those paragraphs, and one hour is
6 allowed for that. Cross-examination will be limited to one hour.
7 The statement D38/4 by Focakovic Hasim, a character witness, is
8 admitted into evidence. However, paragraphs 15, 16, and 19 which discuss
9 matters other than character are struck off.
10 The statement D39/4 by Mihajlo Topolovac, paragraphs 1 up to 24
11 inclusive and paragraphs 28, 35, 36, and 37 are admitted into evidence.
12 The rest of the paragraphs are struck off. The witness will give oral
13 evidence on those paragraphs, and one hour is allowed. Cross-examination
14 is also allowed for one hour.
15 The statement of -- the statement D40/4 by Viktorija Topcagic
16 who is a character witness, is admitted into evidence. However, paragraph
17 20 is struck out.
18 The rest of the statements yet to be submitted and those submitted
19 yesterday will be discussed at a later stage.
20 We will continue with our proceedings.
21 Please call the next witness.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, and please make the solemn
25 WITNESS: VLADIMIR SARKANOVIC
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Please sit down.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 Examined by Mr. Lazarevic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. Can you just tell me if you
10 can hear me well. And if you please approach the microphone so that it
11 can catch what you're saying.
12 A. Good morning. I can hear you well.
13 Q. Good morning. Just so before we begin, can you just have a pause
14 when I ask you a question before you answer so that we don't have an
15 overlap. Just try and pay attention to that. Thank you.
16 Now, for the record, can you tell us your full name and surname.
17 A. My name is Vladimir Sarkanovic.
18 Q. Can you tell me when you were born and where?
19 A. I was born on the 22nd of October, 1941, in Gornji Gradar [as
20 interpreted], municipality of Pelagicevo -- Donji Zabar, municipality of
22 Q. Can you tell us what your profession is now?
23 A. I'm retired.
24 Q. Can you tell me: Where did you complete your primary and
25 secondary school?
1 A. I went to -- I went to school in several places, but I completed
2 in Brcko. That's where I also completed my grammar school, and then I
3 went to pursue my studies in Zagreb.
4 Q. Can you tell me which university you went to in Zagreb, which
5 faculty, and what degree do you have?
6 A. I went to the law school. I have a law degree.
7 Q. That is called the first degree. This is just for the purposes of
8 the Trial Chamber, for the record.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you completed this first degree of the law school, where did
11 you start working?
12 A. In 1966, in Zagreb, and I started to work later, after completion
13 of my military service, in Samac.
14 Q. Can you just tell me: From what time do you live in Samac?
15 A. I've been living in Samac since 1969.
16 Q. I just wanted to ask you in relation to your military service in
17 the JNA: Can you tell me if you have served it, where did you serve, and
19 A. I served my military service in the JNA from September 1967 until
20 September 1968, and the first six months of my military service I went to
21 the reserve officer's school, and then for six months I was in an
22 artillery unit.
23 Q. Following your military service, did you have a rank? Did you
24 obtain a rank?
25 A. Following the completion of my military service, I was a member of
1 the reserve force with the rank of second lieutenant.
2 Q. Following that, through serving in the reserves and military
3 exercises, did you obtain any higher rank than the second lieutenant?
4 A. I obtained the rank of captain first class.
5 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you something in relation to the
6 reserve officers' school. Before this Court, we spoke about it on several
7 occasions, so I wanted to ask you about your experience in relation to
8 personnel being sent to the reserve officers' school in terms of their
9 ethnic background of those students who went to that school. Was there --
10 was any attention paid to the ethnic structure of the students who went to
11 the reserve officers' school?
12 A. Military school for reserve officers, all students from all ethnic
13 backgrounds of Yugoslavia went to that school at the time from
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, proportionally, according to the number of inhabitants
15 in the municipality. In the same way, members and cadets were sent to the
16 reserve officers' school. So there were Serbs, Croats, Muslims in the
17 school, and even ethnic minorities at the time.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me something else in relation to your
19 general background: Are you married?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you have children, grandchildren?
22 A. I have two sons and one grandson.
23 Q. You're a Serb by ethnic background?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions in relation to your party
1 membership. Were you a member of any party? If so, at what time?
2 A. I was a member of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia until it fell
3 apart practically.
4 Q. Following that, did you join another party, after the communist
5 league of Yugoslavia ceased to exist?
6 A. I'm not a member of any party.
7 Q. Which party do you vote for now?
8 A. For the pensioners' party.
9 Q. Tell me: Did you pursue any activities through any hunting
10 associations? Are you perhaps still a member of a hunters' association?
11 A. I am a member of a hunters' association, but I don't hunt very
13 Q. For the record, can we have the name of that hunters' association
14 that you're a member of?
15 A. Samac Hunters' Association, Bosanski Samac.
16 Q. Can you tell me now: I'm interested in your professional career.
17 You said that you started to work in 1969. Can you tell me: Where did
18 you work, and what was your occupation during your career?
19 A. On the 25th of May, 1969, I started to work at the then
20 secretariat for the interior in Bosanski Samac, at a post of criminal
22 Q. Can you tell me: Until when did you do this work?
23 A. I was there until I was retired, which was on the 30th of June,
25 Q. We can conclude that throughout your working career, you were a
1 police inspector; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Sir, throughout your period of work as an inspector at the public
4 security station in Samac, at any time during that period was Simo Zaric
5 chief of that public security station?
6 A. Simo Zaric was at one point chief of the secretariat of the
7 interior, where I worked.
8 Q. Simo Zaric, was he superior? Was he your superior at the time or
9 was it a slightly different situation in place?
10 A. He was not a superior to me at the time. Simo Zaric was the chief
11 of the municipal secretariat of the interior in Bosanski Samac, while I
12 worked at the crime department, which, organisationally speaking, belonged
13 to the inter-municipal secretariat of the interior of Doboj. It had a
14 kind of branch office in Samac for doing any work connected to the Samac
16 Q. So if I understand this correctly, without wishing to imply
17 anything, you worked at the public security station in Bosanski Samac, but
18 your responsibility -- you were responsible for the Doboj?
19 A. Yes, that's correct. We only used the premises of the municipal
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I've just been informed that we have
23 something that is not clear enough in the transcript. You were
24 responsible not for the Doboj but instead of that, your superiors were in
25 the detachment in Doboj, detachment of the interior in Doboj.
1 Q. [Interpretation] What I just said, is that correct? Can you
2 confirm, Mr. Sarkanovic?
3 A. My superiors were in Doboj, while the work that I carried out
4 together with my colleagues, this was in the area of Bosanski Samac.
5 Q. Were you ever a member or did you work for the state security
6 service? You spoke about public security. I'm now asking you about state
8 A. No, never.
9 Q. Sir, throughout your work, 20 years in the police station in
10 Bosanski Samac, can you tell me whether this station, while you were
11 working there, while you were employed there, did it have a certain
12 reputation at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
13 A. You could say that it did, because the detachment that I work for,
14 the section I worked for, it had very good results, enviously good
16 Q. I would just ask you a couple more questions in relation to some
17 details related to you. Now, we're speaking about the period before the
18 17th of April, 1992. Did you have a weapon?
19 A. At that time, and today, I have two hunting rifles and one
20 handgun, which I received when I retired, from my colleagues, from the
22 Q. Thank you. In 1987, you went into retirement. How did you spend
23 the time during your retirement until about April 1992? What did you do?
24 What was your occupation?
25 A. When I retired in 1987, most of my time I spent at my weekend
1 house at the village of Pelagicevo, about 30 kilometres from Bosanski
3 Q. Thank you. Please go on.
4 A. I came to Samac at the end of the autumn. I would spend my winter
5 in Samac, and then in the second half of the spring, depending on the
6 weather, I would go back to my weekend cottage.
7 Q. I will now ask you something in relation to the atmosphere and
8 some events that occurred in the territory of the Bosanski Samac
9 municipality, and in the wider area, at the end of 1991 and beginning of
10 1992. Did you perhaps notice something, some change that occurred in
11 relation to what it was like before? Was there some deterioration in the
12 relationship between people? Were there any incidents that happened, and
13 so on?
14 A. I already said that most of the year I spent at my weekend cottage
15 during that autumn, that is, late autumn of 1991, when I arrived in
16 Samac. It was during my very first outings in the town I realised that
17 there was no directness between the people, and even cordiality between
18 the people, when I met the locals, when it was compared to the other times
19 when I came to Samac.
20 Q. Could we answer one thing --
21 A. That could be observed was a kind of fear and anxiety, a worry
22 among the people which I explained through the proximity of the war in
23 Croatia and the anxiousness that this war would be transferred to Bosnia.
24 Q. Thank you. We will come back to certain events later, but now I'd
25 like to open another subject with you, and perhaps we can talk about it.
1 And the subject is the 4th Detachment.
2 First of all, can you tell me: Were you a member of the 4th
4 A. Yes, I was a member of the 4th Detachment.
5 Q. Can you tell me: In what way and when did you become a member of
6 the 4th Detachment?
7 A. I became a member of the 4th Detachment at the beginning of
8 January 1992, in such a way that I responded to mobilisation.
9 Q. Can you tell me: In the 4th Detachment, did you have a post, a
11 A. No.
12 Q. So you were just a simple soldier; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You had the rank of a captain in reserve and you were still a
15 simple soldier in the 4th Detachment; is that correct?
16 A. The 4th Detachment was established as an infantry unit, and
17 because I'm an artilleryman myself, at that time the 4th Detachment did
18 not have any artillery, so I couldn't have had, strictly speaking, any
19 command position.
20 Q. Thank you very much. Can you tell me, then: When you became a
21 member of the 4th Detachment, were you issued a weapon?
22 A. I received an automatic rifle of the Kalashnikov type, with one
23 combat set of ammunition; and as far as the uniform is concerned, I was
24 issued a winter jacket.
25 Q. Now when we're speaking about the 4th Detachment, can you tell
1 me: What was the ethnic structure of the members of the detachment?
2 A. The 4th Detachment was heterogeneous. It consisted of all the
3 different ethnic groups living in Bosanski Samac.
4 Q. Among the commanders and other leading or commanding structures in
5 the detachment, were there representatives of all the different ethnic
6 backgrounds? I mean company commanders and such.
7 A. Yes. From the detachment commander level downwards.
8 Q. Were other members of the detachment also issued weapons, like you
10 A. All of them were given weapons, yes.
11 Q. This had nothing to do with their ethnic background, did it?
12 Whoever was a member of the detachment would be given weapons?
13 A. Regardless of their ethnic background, all of the members, yes.
14 Q. Can you please tell me: Who was the commander of the 4th
16 A. Radovan Antic was the commander of the 4th Detachment.
17 Q. Who was the deputy commander? Just the name.
18 A. Jovo Savic was the deputy.
19 Q. What was the position of Simo Zaric there in the 4th Detachment?
20 A. He was the deputy commander for intelligence, morale, and
22 Q. And what about Miroslav Tadic? What was his position?
23 A. He was deputy -- assistant commander for logistics.
24 Q. Where was the headquarters of the 4th Detachment?
25 A. The headquarters was on the premises of the Sit work organisation,
1 the Mladost association of labour in Bosanski Samac.
2 Q. You know where the AS cafe is. Can you tell me, in relation to
3 that cafe, where is that?
4 A. Just across the way.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me now: Were any symbols displayed
6 prominently on the command building, or anywhere in the vicinity, any
7 symbols indicating that there was a military presence there or the
8 headquarters of a military unit?
9 A. Yes. Yes. There were the flags, the Yugoslav flag and the
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina flag.
11 Q. In relation to the 4th Detachment, let us elaborate, please. Was
12 it part of a larger military formation? If so, who was at its head, and
13 where was its headquarters?
14 A. The 4th Detachment was part of the 17th Tactical Group, commanded
15 by Lieutenant Colonel Stevan Nikolic.
16 Q. Can you please tell me where the 17th Tactical Group was based,
17 where was its command?
18 A. The command or the headquarters was in the village of Pelagicevo,
19 which is about 30 kilometres from Samac.
20 Q. But this is not Samac municipality, is it; it's a different
22 A. That's the area of Gradacac municipality, or rather, was at that
24 Q. Thank you very much. Throughout that period while you were a
25 member of the 4th Detachment, as you said, since January 1992, were you
1 physically present in a barracks or anything of that sort, or was life
2 organised in a different way?
3 A. There was no such thing as a barracks. Each member of the
4 detachment lived in their own respective homes, and that was also where
5 they kept their weapons.
6 Q. I think there's no need for us to dwell on this any longer. Can
7 we please move on to certain meetings which were held in connection with
8 organising the 4th Detachment and with the aim of informing the public
9 about the tasks of the 4th Detachment.
10 Did you attend any such meetings? If so, please tell us when.
11 A. At first, the establishment of the detachment caused certain
12 dissent to arise among the population of Samac. A meeting was held at the
13 memorial centre in Bosanski Samac at which the role and the reason for the
14 establishment of the 4th Detachment were explained.
15 Q. Did you attend that particular meeting?
16 A. Yes, I was there.
17 Q. Were only members of the detachment present at that meeting, or
18 was that a meeting of a broader nature, where other people attended too,
19 meaning civilians also who were not members of the detachment?
20 A. The meeting was organised first and foremost for the benefit of
21 the citizens who were not members of the detachment. There was a need to
22 explain to them why the 4th Detachment had been established and what the
23 reason was for its existence.
24 Q. Can you tell me what the reason was for the setting up of the 4th
25 Detachment? How was that presented to the citizens at the meeting? What
1 exactly were they told? What were you told, for that matter?
2 A. The reason that the 4th Detachment was set up was, first and
3 foremost, the need to prevent interethnic strife, to prevent war from
4 spilling over from the neighbouring Croatia into Bosnia and Herzegovina.
5 Q. Who spoke at that meeting, specifically?
6 A. Detachment commander and his assistant for morale were speaking at
7 that meeting. His assistant for morale, intelligence, and security;
8 specifically, Radovan Antic and Simo Zaric.
9 Q. Thank you. Let us now, please, go back to the overall situation
10 in the municipality and to certain events occurring at the time. Were you
11 familiar with certain acts of sabotage, buildings being blown up
12 throughout that period? Do you know anything about that?
13 A. As I've said, I did notice that the atmosphere was different when
14 I came to Samac. As time went by, the situation kept deteriorating.
15 There were acts of sabotage. Telegraph and electricity poles were being
16 pulled down, news agents were being broken into. Hasan Ceribasic's
17 holiday cottage had been broken into. The chapel at the Serbian cemetery
18 was destroyed. There was an attempt to blow up the bridge over the River
20 Q. We've spoken about these incidents, and I do not wish to dwell on
21 this for too long, with the exception of one particular incident. Did you
22 have any knowledge or information as to whether the police of Bosanski
23 Samac had actually managed to track down any of the perpetrators of these
24 acts of sabotage?
25 A. After the national parties came to power, and after people were
1 appointed to the leading positions at the SUP in Bosanski Samac along
2 party lines, there were immediately divisions along party lines and along
3 the ethnic lines, so that the work of that service at that time was not
4 even felt.
5 Q. Do you have information whether any of the perpetrators were
6 actually found out?
7 A. I think not a single one.
8 Q. As a person who has spent his whole life as a police inspector,
9 his whole career, what would you say: What was the effect of that
10 situation on the general sense of security among the citizens in Bosanski
12 A. The effect was certainly very detrimental. Things kept happening.
13 No perpetrators were ever found. This caused much discontent among the
14 people and much apprehension as to what was potentially about to happen.
15 Even more so when, on two occasions, even worse things happened. Citizens
16 of Samac were wounded or even killed. On one occasion, two young men were
17 killed at a cafe. On another, members of the reserve police force used
18 firearms, wounding three members of the 4th Detachment in the process.
19 Q. Just briefly let us speak about this incident where two young men
20 were killed at the Valentino Cafe. First of all, let me ask you: What
21 was your relationship to Kemal Bobic?
22 A. Very good, even friendly.
23 Q. It's beyond dispute that his son was one of the persons who were
24 killed in that incident at the Valentino Cafe, and I think no one
25 contested the fact that this happened because those young men were playing
1 with a hand grenade. What I really want to know is what happened after
2 that. Citizens gathered outside the police station. Were you around at
3 that time? Were you present there? And what exactly did you notice?
4 A. Yes, I was there. That evening, I was in my flat, when, around
5 9.00 in the evening, my son came. He was aged about 15 at that time. And
6 he told me that in one of the cafes, a grenade had exploded, wounding, as
7 he told me, a number of young men. I put on my clothes quickly and I went
8 to the centre. You could feel a sense of unease in the centre. There was
9 a lot of disquiet. And I noticed that some of the citizens were walking
10 towards the municipality building and the SUP building. Some of them told
11 me that a rally was expected outside the SUP building in relation to these
12 events. I was interested in this, and I came along. And outside the SUP
13 building, I found Mr. Simo Zaric and Mr. Mihajlo Topolovac. There were
14 about a hundred people there already, citizens mostly of Muslim ethnicity,
15 among whom there were some people who blamed the event on Serbs and on
16 Serbo Chetniks, as they called them. Among that group, I think a man
17 named Jasarevic was particularly prominent. His nickname was Roma.
18 This went on for a while, until at one moment Hadzialijagic spoke
19 to the assembled citizens. Safet Hadzialijagic, called Coner. He
20 appealed to those gathered there to go home, to disperse, and allow the
21 SUP some time to clarify the situation. Once people started to disperse,
22 I suggested to Mr. Zaric and Mr. Topolovac, since I had in the meantime
23 been told that one of those two young men who had been killed was the son
24 of Kemal Bobic, I suggested that we go to Kemal's house to express our
1 We did eventually go to Kemal Bobic's house, and outside the house
2 we found a small group of people. We commiserated to Kemal and his wife.
3 I asked Kemal whether he needed anything with regard to the burial of his
4 son. He asked me whether I could lend him a certain amount of money. I
5 promised to do so. And the next day I sent the money to him with my
6 younger son.
7 Q. What was the specific amount of money, and did Kemal Bobic give
8 this money back to you? Did he pay you back at any time?
9 A. This was a thousand German marks, and Kemal immediately returned
10 the money to me after the war.
11 Q. Thank you very much. I plan on returning to Kemal Bobic at a
12 later stage, but now tell me about another incident which you have also
13 referred to, namely, the wounding of three members of the 4th Detachment.
14 What do you know about that particular incident? What was it that
15 actually happened there?
16 A. That evening, a patrol of the reserve police force, for reasons I
17 did not know, opened fire on a moving vehicle, a vehicle carrying three
18 members of the 4th Detachment. All three of them were wounded.
19 Q. Do you perhaps remember who these members of the reserve police
20 force were who opened fire on members of the 4th Detachment?
21 A. I think Mersad Mesic perhaps -- I know that he was a butcher.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re.
23 MR. RE: My objection is to, I think -- perhaps it could be
24 clarified whether the witness was actually there and saw this or whether
25 it's something he actually heard.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Furthermore, I don't think the witness was
3 actually answering my question, because he was answering about who the
4 wounded were and not who actually should -- but I will clarify this. I
5 have no problem.
6 Q. [Interpretation] When this incident happened, were you present at
7 the scene?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So your information about this event is hearsay really?
10 A. Yes, yes, it's hearsay. I can only tell you what I've heard.
11 Q. If that's not a problem, could you please tell us what you heard
12 about it. First of all, who were the men who had opened fire on members
13 of the 4th Detachment?
14 A. Two reserve police officers: Izetbegovic, I know he was Izo's
15 son, but I don't know his first name. And the other man's last name was
16 Srna and his father was a railway worker. Those were younger people.
17 Q. We do not intend to dwell on this now. Just tell me, please, if
18 you can remember the names of the people who were wounded, the three
19 members of the 4th Detachment. You started telling us. There was an
20 objection by the Prosecution.
21 A. As I said, one of them was called Mirsad Mesic. Another's name
22 was Ramusovic, nicknamed Tota. I'm not sure about his first name. And
23 the third one was Danilo Vitomir.
24 Q. Very well. Thank you. At that time - and we have already heard
25 this from a number of witnesses' testimonies - there were some rallies,
1 citizens' rallies, in the area of the Bosanski Samac municipality, or
2 rather, in the town of Bosanski Samac itself. Did you attend any of these
3 rallies? We used to refer to them as peace rallies here. Did you attend
4 any of these rallies; and if so, can you please tell us about it?
5 A. Yes, there were a number of those, and I attended one which was
6 held at the local cinema in Samac. The speakers at that meeting, I think
7 there was Sulejman Tihic, nicknamed Mane, and Simo Zaric. The message
8 at those rallies, as a rule, was the need to prevent interethnic strife
9 and the need for coexistence, peaceful coexistence, as well as the need
10 to prevent war from spilling over from Croatia into Bosnia and
12 Q. I withdraw this question. Can you please tell me: The 16th of
13 April, 1992, where were you on that day?
14 A. In Samac.
15 Q. Was your family with you on the 16th of April in Samac?
16 A. My wife and my younger son. The elder son was already in Italy.
17 He was abroad. His girlfriend lived there, and eventually he stayed
18 there. They got married. He lives there now.
19 Q. Tell us about the day of the 16th of April of 1992. Did anything
20 special happen on that day? Did you notice anything out of the ordinary?
21 A. No. Personally, I didn't. A day like any other.
22 Q. Let's talk about the evening of the same day. What happened in
23 the evening? Can you tell us, please: Where were you? What happened?
24 A. The night between the 16th and 17th of April, 1992, I was at home
25 in my flat. Suddenly, my wife shook me awake at about 3.00 in the
1 morning, or perhaps a little later, on the 17th of April, telling me that
2 she had heard sounds of shooting and an explosion in the town. I didn't
3 pay much attention to that, because sounds of shooting were not completely
4 unusual. This had happened before. And yet, I rang up the police
5 station, the SUP, to see if anything was happening. The phone lines were
6 down, so this was not a good way for me to obtain any information. I
7 tried to call the duty officer of the 4th Detachment, but the same thing
8 happened, because the phone lines were down, so I couldn't get through to
10 In the meantime, though, I heard some clamour in the corridor of
11 my building, the building where I live. I came out into the corridor. I
12 saw two of the residents, who also worked for the police, and they were
13 asking themselves the same question: What was happening?
14 After a while, and after commenting an exchanging opinions on what
15 it might have been, we all went back to our flats and back to sleep.
16 Q. Can you please just tell us the names of those two gentlemen, the
17 neighbours whom you found in the corridor.
18 A. Savo Savic and Milos Savic.
19 Q. After you went back to sleep, were there still sounds of shooting
20 to be heard?
21 A. As we were still in the corridor, the shooting had stopped, so I
22 went back to my flat -- I went back to sleep, I woke up the same day about
23 7.00 or 8.00 in the morning. And as I was sipping my morning coffee with
24 my wife, the phone rang. I picked up the receiver and realised that it
25 was the duty officer of the detachment, telling me to come to the
1 detachment immediately.
2 Q. So now we're speaking about the 17th of April, in the morning.
3 You were called by the duty officer from the detachment and told you to
4 come to the detachment. Did he tell you what was the reason for that and
5 what was happening?
6 A. He told me that during that night -- in fact, I had asked him what
7 was happening that night and why was there shooting, and he then told me
8 that specials from Serbia, as he called it, and the Serbian police, had
9 taken over the control over the key facilities in Samac, and that that was
10 the reason why I had to report to my unit.
11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lazarevic. I wonder,
12 Mr. Sarkanovic, just to clarify: You had said that on the morning of 17th
13 of April, 1992, at approximately 3.00 a.m., you tried to make some phone
14 calls and the phones weren't working. That's correct?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And then approximately five hours later, at 8.00,
17 you got up, you were having your coffee, and then you received a phone
18 call, so at that point in time, obviously the phones were reconnected.
19 That's correct?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: This is precisely what the witness said.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The call was about 9.00 in the
24 morning on the same day.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. So the duty officer called you. Can you tell us: What did you do
3 A. I got ready, and while I was getting ready, through the window of
4 my apartment, which is located in the central part of Samac, I saw, on the
5 plateau in front of the department store, and in the part of the market
6 which is closer to my apartment, I saw a group of armed civilians, among
7 whom I recognised my neighbours, the Atic brothers, the Sabanovic
8 neighbour, Ekac, Bicic brothers. They were armed with firearms. And
9 considering that one of them I had filed charges against because of rape,
10 I decided that if I went out of the apartment, this could lead to some
11 unfortunate things happening. So I called the duty officer at the
12 detachment. I explained to him what the situation was and I asked for
13 permission to arrive at the detachment once the conditions are right, and
14 he gave me the permission. So I did not go to the detachment on that day.
15 Q. Now, let us just analyse something you have said in relation to
16 your answer. When you said "Ekac," can we please be precise about who
17 that was?
18 A. That was Esad Dagovic, also known as Ekac. He was a waiter at the
19 pizzeria run by Bicic brothers.
20 Q. Can you also tell me: You mentioned that you had arrested one of
21 these persons because of rape. Among those you've mentioned, who is that
23 A. That's Kemal Atic, also known as Kilo.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. RE: I object to the last answer. I'm sorry. I was a little
1 bit late in responding, Your Honours. The evidence in relation to rape,
2 I'd ask that that be struck from the record. It's not relevant to these
3 proceedings and it wasn't put to the witnesses when they gave evidence.
4 There's certainly no evidence of any conviction.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. He simply said that he had arrested him for
6 these charges; that's all. It wasn't a conviction. The witness said he
7 had arrested this person on charges of rape; that's all.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: If I may give the answer to what my colleague has
9 just stated. First of all, one of these -- none of these persons -- these
10 persons that was mentioned was not a witness here, was not -- has nothing
11 to do with the proceedings here. This raping happened before the war
12 started and it had nothing to do with the proceedings. But it just
13 explains why this witness didn't feel safe of walking outside when he saw
14 this person armed with Kalashnikov. So I don't really see what is the
15 basis for the objection.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: No, there is no basis, actually. You can go ahead,
17 Mr. Lazarevic.
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Thank you. So, sir, you told us who you saw. Now, to just
20 clarify things fully: All of these persons that you then saw, can you
21 tell us what is their ethnicity, Atic, Dagovic, Bicic brothers?
22 A. They're all Muslims, of Muslim ethnicity.
23 Q. Thank you. So you thought it was not safe, and you said that you
24 stayed at home. On that day, did you go out at all, or was there anything
25 else that was happening outside? Were there people coming or going?
1 A. Throughout that day, 17th of April, I did not leave my apartment,
2 because through the window of the apartment, I was able to see that
3 group -- which occasionally would split into smaller groups and then they
4 would get together again. Throughout the day they were on the plateau in
5 front of the department store and the part of the market which borders
6 with the plateau in front of the department store.
7 Q. You were watching that through the window of your apartment; is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes, through the window. I already said that the apartment is
10 located in the central part of Samac. So through the window, I have a
11 view, in fact, an overview of the south and the western part of that part
12 of town, considering that most of these walls are glass walls.
13 Q. Thank you. That night of the 17th, did you spend it at home?
14 A. The night of the 17th to the 18th I spent in my apartment.
15 Q. So now we're talking about the 18th of April. Can you tell me:
16 What is happening on the 18th of April, in the morning?
17 A. On the 18th of April, in the morning, immediately after I got up,
18 I looked through the window and I saw a small group of people that I
19 couldn't, in fact, recognise, because they were a little further inside
20 the market area. And at about 1000 hours, somebody knocked on the door of
21 my apartment, and I opened the door. I saw three unknown people in front.
22 They were dressed in camouflage uniforms. Their faces were painted with
23 black paint. These people asked me if I had a weapon. I told them that I
24 had an automatic rifle which had been issued in the detachment to me, and
25 that I had a certificate to prove it, and that I had my personal weapons,
1 two hunting rifles and a handgun. I showed them the permits. After that,
2 they went further into the building, which means that they went upstairs,
3 towards the higher floors.
4 Q. You already said that these people were unknown to you, that you
5 didn't recognise them. Did they perhaps have a characteristic accent that
6 could give you some indication as to where these people came from?
7 A. It could be observed that these people were from Serbia, because
8 they used the Ekavica dialect.
9 Q. Did they go from apartment to apartment, as far as you were able
10 to observe, of course?
11 A. I saw them for the first time when they came to my door, in front
12 of my apartment. But where they went, I can assume that they went to the
13 apartments that were behind mine.
14 Q. You did not observe any further?
15 A. Of course not. As soon as they told me that I was all right, I
16 closed the door and went back to my apartment.
17 Q. Somewhat later, was there anything else that was happening in the
18 street that you were able to observe after that?
19 A. Soon afterwards, I first heard and then I saw a vehicle, a moving
20 vehicle, from which someone was using a loudspeaker to call on to the
21 citizens to hand over the weapons that they had, the weapons that they had
22 without a permit.
23 Q. Thank you. Let us now move to the afternoon of the 18th of
24 April. Did you go to report to the detachment?
25 A. In the afternoon hours, about 1700 hours, when I realised, when I
1 was absolutely certain that on the plateau in front of the department
2 store there was no one to be seen, then I took the automatic rifle and I
3 went to the command of the 4th Detachment, which in the meantime changed
4 location, and it was in a private house now, also in Samac.
5 Q. Can you tell us where approximately, where was that house when you
6 reported? Where was the command of the 4th Detachment?
7 A. The house was in the 4th District, which is located near the
8 defence dam by the Bosna River, and it is owned by Jovo Dusanovic.
9 Q. When you came to the command, who did you find there? What were
10 you told?
11 A. At the command, I saw the detachment commander, Mr. Antic. I saw
12 Simo Zaric and some others, some soldiers. And the duty officer of the
13 detachment, I think, was second lieutenant Nikolic. I don't know. I know
14 his father's name is Vojko. I'm not sure about his first name.
15 Q. Sorry, that Nikolic is not --
16 A. No. Not Lieutenant Colonel. This is a local from Samac. His
17 father's name is Vojko. I don't know what the son's name is. I don't
19 Q. Thank you. What were you told?
20 A. He told me to report to my company commander and that I could find
21 him at one part of the dam, as I said, which goes along the right bank of
22 the Bosna River. And it goes towards the village of Prud. That is on the
23 western part of Samac, towards the village of Prud.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. Not dam, but
1 A. I went there and I found Celikovic, Milan, who was the commanding
2 officer, and he told me to which of the positions of that embankment I
3 should go.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. How long did you stay at your combat position at the embankment,
6 on the embankment?
7 A. I stayed on the embankment the night between the 18th and 19th of
8 April, 1992.
9 Q. Very well. During that time while you were on the embankment,
10 were there any hostilities? Was there any opening of fire?
11 A. There was sporadic fire from the direction of Prud.
12 Q. Thank you. You already said that you only spent that night on the
13 embankment. What happened on the 19th of April, in the morning?
14 A. On the 18th of April, in the morning -- on the 19th of April --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
16 A. -- a courier came from the command and told me that I had to
17 report to the security station in Samac.
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So just to make it clear for the transcript: That was 19th of
20 April, in the morning?
21 A. Yes, it was 19th, in the morning.
22 Q. Did you go to the police station?
23 A. I immediately went to the police station.
24 Q. Can you tell me: The situation that you found at the very
25 entrance to the police station, what's happening there? What did it look
2 A. When I arrived in front of the building where the police station
3 was, I found an unusual crowd of people. There were persons there who
4 were in the reserve force of the police, in the active force of the
5 police. There were civilians, there were people who were in camouflage
7 Q. Did you go inside? And if you did, what did you see inside?
8 A. Of course I went inside, because that's why I came for. And in
9 front of the duty officer's office, so in front of that duty officer's
10 office, the office where the duty officer sits, I was met by the then
11 unknown person who was dressed in a black uniform or a suit - I cannot
12 tell you what that was, because it was of a very unusual type and colour -
13 he handed me his -- he put his hand out and, by calling me by my name, he
14 congratulated me on the Serbian Republic. I shook his hand. We kissed.
15 And while that was happening, out of the corner of my eye, I saw the
16 commander of the police station, to whom I immediately afterwards I
17 received the congratulations. I went to see him and went to ask him who
18 that person was. Savo Cancarevic replied that this was Stevan Todorovic,
19 that he was now the chief of the public security station. I told Savo
20 that I was called to the SUP, to which he answered that I had to report to
21 Milos Savic, who was already at the SUP and in the former premises of the
22 crime department.
23 Q. Thank you very much. This is usually time for a break, I know.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, and we'll continue at 1100 hours.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sarkanovic, you probably remember where we
5 left off before the break. You said that you had seen a man wearing black
6 uniform, a man you had not known before. He congratulated you on the Serb
7 Republic. And then you left with Savo Cancarevic, who told you that that
8 man was Stevan Todorovic and that you should go and see Milos Savic at the
9 crime department. So you went to see Milos Savic. First of all, tell me:
10 Milos Savic's office, the office that Milos Savic was using, was that on
11 the ground floor or on one of the upper floors of the police station?
12 A. The crime department is on the first floor of the secretariat
13 building, in the left-hand half of the building, as you climb the main
15 Q. Did you find Milos Savic in those offices? If so, please tell us
16 what happened: What you told him and what he told you.
17 A. I found Milos Savic in an office that I used to work in. We
18 greeted each other, and Milos said that pursuant to an order of the
19 secretariat for military affairs, I was to be transferred to the crime
20 department and that my task would be crime prevention and finding out the
21 perpetrators. He also told me that at the station there were a number of
22 persons in detention who were to be interviewed with regard to the
23 circumstances of their arming themselves or their belonging to
24 paramilitary units. Furthermore, he showed me two documents, which I
25 later used when I interviewed the prisoners. One of them was a list of a
1 self-organised citizens of Samac for the defence of the town, and the
2 other document was a mobilisation chart and an organisation chart for the
3 units organised by the Party of Democratic Action.
4 Q. Can we just hold on, please, for a moment.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Document D14/4.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sarkanovic, we are lucky to have the original
7 of the document here tendered into evidence. Can you please look at it
9 A. This is one of the documents.
10 Q. Can you please place it on that thing next to you, the ELMO. This
11 is one of the documents Milos Savic showed you on the 19th. Did he
12 perhaps tell you where the document came from, where it had been found,
13 and under what circumstances?
14 A. Milos told me that the documents had been found in the cupboard,
15 or rather, in the desk of the commander of the reserve police force.
16 Q. Can you tell us the name of this commander of the reserve police
18 A. I can't remember. I may be able to remember in the further course
19 of my testimony, but right now I just can't seem to remember the name.
20 Q. Very well. But you are certain that this is the same document?
21 A. Yes, I am.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous interpretation continues] ... document
23 any more. The next one would be D25/4.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re.
25 MR. RE: Yes, Your Honour --
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. In respect of this document.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: The first three pages of these documents are
4 marked as ID, and the rest of the document is admitted into evidence as
5 full exhibit. So I would like the witness to see the whole document, so
6 first three pages which are marked as ID, as well as the other pages.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: There are these three pages missing here in this
9 copy. Place on the ELMO, please, for the benefit of our clients.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can you please have a look. The first three
11 pages, as well as the remaining pages of this document. You can look at
12 it while it's on the ELMO.
13 A. I've looked at it. If I may just answer your previous question.
14 I've just remembered the name of the commander of the reserve police
15 force. The name is Namko [as interpreted] Suljic.
16 Q. Thank you very much for this. You've looked through this
17 document. Is this the same document that, on the 19th of April, 1992,
18 when you came to the police station, Milos Savic showed you?
19 A. Yes, that's the same document.
20 Q. Was this document used or actually shown to persons from whom you
21 were taking statements?
22 A. Every single individual that I interviewed, I showed the list.
23 That's in case the person's name was actually on the list.
24 Q. Just another question in relation to this. You have now looked
25 through this document. Have there been any changes or amendments or
1 additions to this document, as far as you can tell, additional words being
2 typed in?
3 A. I think not.
4 Q. If you can please tell us, because on the transcript the name is
5 misspelt. What's the name -- the first name of Suljic, the commander of
6 the reserve police force?
7 A. Namik.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous interpretation continues] ... D26/4.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Have you managed to look through this document?
11 A. Yes, I have.
12 Q. Was this document used too? Was this another document that Milos
13 Savic showed you on the 19th of April?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you use this document during interviews? Did you show this
16 document to persons from whom you were taking statements?
17 A. As I've said, both documents were shown to persons whom I
18 interviewed, if their name was on the list, or in the documents, rather.
19 Q. To the best of your recollection, you had these documents very
20 often in your hands. Have there been any changes or amendments, so to
21 speak, to these present copies of these documents?
22 A. I had copies of these documents with me on a daily basis. I can't
23 notice any changes or additions or amendments.
24 Q. Thank you very much. You are now at the police station, and Milos
25 Savic tells you what your tasks are. He shows you these documents. Tell
1 me: Did you conduct interviews with the persons detained there? Just
2 tell me yes or no, please.
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. We'll go back to this. This is crucial in terms of the
6 But first of all, I want to ask you about Mr. Zaric and his
7 presence at the police station. In relation to the 19th, when you
8 arrived, when did you first see Mr. Zaric?
9 A. At the police station, I first laid eyes on Mr. Zaric the next
10 day, on the 20th of April of 1992.
11 Q. Thank you. But let us try to focus your testimony on a number of
12 issues that are interesting for us, the Defence of Mr. Zaric. I will ask
13 you a number of brief questions in connection with Mr. Zaric. It is clear
14 that you two had met before. Tell me now: When you saw Mr. Zaric for the
15 first time there, was he wearing a uniform, and what kind of uniform?
16 A. Yes, he was wearing a uniform. This was an olive-drab uniform,
17 olive-drab, the kind used by soldiers in the JNA.
18 Q. Very well. Thank you. During those first days, was Mr. Zaric
19 wearing the same uniform during those first days since the 19th or,
20 rather, the 20th?
21 A. Yes. On the 20th he was wearing the same uniform; that's for
22 sure. The next time I saw him, I'm not sure if he was wearing olive-drab
23 or the camouflage uniform. It was several sizes too large and he tried to
24 make it fit. Certain jokes were cracked about that.
25 Q. Thank you. That was a military uniform - let us just make this
1 clear - not a police uniform?
2 A. Yes, it was a military uniform, olive-drab, the kind of uniform
3 used or, rather, worn by soldiers of the then army.
4 Q. We'll go back to Mr. Zaric, but there's another thing I'd like to
5 ask you now. You came back to town from those positions and you were in
6 at the police station. Did you notice anything in connection with white
7 armbands or people wearing white armbands; and if so, please tell us what
8 you noticed exactly.
9 A. I didn't go to town very often during those days, but yes, I could
10 indeed notice that a number of citizens who were not members of the 4th
11 Detachment were wearing white armbands. I think it was the upper right
12 arm that they wore it on. But I know that persons whom I interviewed did
13 not wear such white armbands.
14 Q. Let us try to elaborate, please. The soldiers of the 4th
15 Detachment, they were wearing white armbands, weren't they?
16 A. The soldiers of the 4th Detachment, yes, yes, they were wearing
17 white armbands on their left shoulder strap. Depending on the occasion,
18 the colour of the armband would be changed. At the beginning, white
19 armbands were used, and later, the colour would change.
20 Q. Let us leave these soldiers aside for the time being. Let's talk
21 about persons who were not members of the 4th Detachment, civilians, so to
22 speak. You said that you had noticed that some of them had been wearing
23 white armbands too?
24 A. As I've said, I did see civilians, that is, persons who were not
25 members of the 4th Detachment, wearing white armbands, but those were
1 usually worn on the upper right arm.
2 Q. Did you perhaps know the reason why those civilians were wearing
3 white armbands? Had there been an order or a decision binding them,
4 indeed, to wear these white armbands?
5 A. I did not hear that there was any decision like that, or order,
6 but maybe citizens simply identified with members of the 4th Detachment,
7 because this soon ceased.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
9 MR. RE: I object. Apart from the leading, it's purely
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness doesn't seem to know why those
12 were wearing armbands.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: I'm aware --
14 JUDGE MUMBA: White armbands.
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: -- I will rephrase in another way.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, just another question related to the white
17 armbands. Those persons whom you saw wearing white armbands - and I am
18 talking about civilian now - those persons, were they from one particular
19 ethnic group or were persons of all the different ethnic groups wearing
21 A. All the different ethnic groups.
22 Q. More specifically, please: Have you seen any Serb civilians
23 wearing white armbands?
24 A. At the entrance to my building, the building where my flat is,
25 outside the entrance there's a family house where two elderly people, two
1 elderly Serbs, live, Cvijeta and Milan Voskic [Realtime transcript read in
2 error "Boskic"], going out or coming back into my building, I could notice
3 that they too were wearing white armbands around their upper right arm.
4 Q. Can you please state again the last name of Cvijeta and Milan.
5 A. Voskic, Milan and his wife Cvijeta.
6 Q. Let us please go back to Mr. Zaric at the police station.
7 Mr. Zaric, did he come up to you and Milos Savic? Did you talk about what
8 he was doing there and how he came to be there?
9 A. On the 20th of April, 1992, Mr. Simo Zaric came to the SUP
10 building, to the offices of the crime department, to the office in which I
11 was staying, and Milos Savic too. After greeting us, he said that the
12 commander sent him to look at the statements that we had taken from
13 prisoners and see whether there was any information therein that could be
14 useful to the army. And he also said that he would come back to do the
15 same thing again.
16 Q. Did he on that occasion look at any of the statements which you
17 had already taken?
18 A. Milos Savic and I had finished a number of interviews the day
19 before, and we noted the circumstances surrounding the interviews. Milos
20 Savic kept these statements and he gave them to Simo Zaric to look at.
21 Q. Can we just clarify one point in connection with that? Milos
22 Savic, in relation to you, did he hold any particular position? Was he
23 your superior in that section?
24 A. Milos Savic was the chief of the crime department. Even before
25 these events, he had been an active member of the crime department.
1 Q. Aside from you and Milos Savic, was there anyone else working for
2 the crime department? Was anyone else present at the crime department
3 from the moment you joined?
4 A. There was a crime technician there named Zoran Jovanovic.
5 Q. Very well. Thank you. So that was the crime department, to all
6 intents and purposes?
7 A. That's true.
8 Q. We're talking about the 20th of April now. Mr. Zaric is at the
9 police station. You've already named Mr. Sulejman Tihic during your
10 testimony. On the 20th of April, was an interview conducted with
11 Mr. Tihic? How? Under what circumstances? Who was present? Who took
12 the statement? What was the condition of Mr. Tihic on that day? Tell me
13 that and any other details which you can recall in connection with that.
14 A. That morning when I came to the SUP building, Milos told me that
15 he had been told by either the commander or the chief of SUP that on that
16 day I would be conducting an interview with Sulejman Tihic, who was one of
17 the detained citizens.
18 Q. Just a moment. Tell me: Did you know Sulejman Tihic from before,
19 and what were your relationships with Tihic?
20 A. I knew Sulejman Tihic practically from the moment I arrived in
21 Samac, because it's a small place and everyone knows everyone else,
22 particularly because Tihic at one point was a public prosecutor, and as
23 somebody who was employed at the crime department, I was in close
24 connection with Mr. Tihic.
25 Q. What were your personal relationships with Mr. Tihic?
1 A. Good. Very good.
2 Q. So you found out that you had to conduct an interview with
3 Mr. Tihic. Was he brought to the SUP? Was there anyone else present?
4 A. The usual practice was that citizens who were detained would be
5 brought to us one by one. When Sulejman Tihic was brought to my office, I
6 think that in the office next to me and Mr. Zaric there was also Milos
8 Q. Can you tell me: What was the appearance of Mr. Tihic when he
10 A. Mr. Tihic was quite frightened.
11 Q. What did he tell you? Who spoke to him? How did that proceed?
12 A. First we said hello to each other, and some informal talk. We
13 started the interview. During that interview, he said that he had been
14 detained in the police station, that the camouflaged policemen from Serbia
15 had beaten him. It was possible to see on him the traces of the beatings.
16 Q. Can you tell me: Who took the statement from Sulejman Tihic?
17 A. I just said: I started, and then Mr. Zaric said that he would
18 want to speak with Sulejman Tihic to conduct the interview, and then I
19 left the office to do something else, except that I would return to that
20 office every now and then to see how Sulejman was, and so on.
21 Q. Can you tell me whether, by any chance, during the interviews
22 while you were there, was there any talk of Sulejman Tihic being released?
23 A. We encouraged Mr. Tihic. We told him that there was no reason for
24 him to be further detained in the station after the interview. So in that
25 sense, we told him that after the interview he would be released.
1 Q. Did you believe that, what you said to Mr. Tihic?
2 A. I believed that. I firmly believed that.
3 Q. This interview with Mr. Tihic went on for a while. Do you know
4 what happened after that? Were you perhaps present when this interview
5 was completed, when his statement was finished and signed?
6 A. By the end of the day, again I returned to the office where Simo
7 Zaric was taking the statement from Sulejman Tihic, and then I was told -
8 in fact, it was Simo who told me - that in the meantime he had spoken to
9 the chief of the station, Stevan Todorovic, and that Stevan had a priori
10 refused to release Sulejman Tihic to go home. Then I proposed that we
11 should try and put Tihic in a premises designed for detention, where at
12 the time there was no other detained citizen, in order to avoid the
13 meeting between specials from Serbia and Tihic.
14 Q. What was your motive?
15 A. I just said: In some way to hide Sulejman Tihic from the
16 specials, we placed him in the premises for detention where the specials
17 didn't go to.
18 Q. Sir, you already said that you were not present during the entire
19 interview, that is, during the entire statement-taking procedure from
20 Tihic by Simo Zaric. But to the extent that you were present, were there
21 any threats, any blows, any insults, anything that was possibly destined
22 for Mr. Tihic?
23 A. Absolutely not. It was a correct attitude, even more than
25 Q. Thank you. A number of witnesses who testified here spoke about
1 certain things that occurred at the time, and now I'd like you to tell us
2 what you know about this. Were detained persons beaten?
3 A. Yes. Not all of them, but most of them.
4 Q. Did you personally see? Where, when?
5 A. The office where I worked has a view of the yard of the TO
6 building, where there were detained citizens. I had the opportunity to
7 see that it was most frequently the specials from Serbia, and sometimes
8 police members were beating the prisoners. There were also cases when
9 prisoners were beating each other, most probably upon someone's
11 Q. Did you perhaps see any other occurrences that should not have
12 happened in a police station and certain acts that should not have
13 occurred against detained persons?
14 A. I already said: When a detainee is beaten, that is enough to say
15 that this is improper behaviour.
16 Q. Can you tell me: Were there any things that occurred when
17 personal items were taken from the prisoners; and if so, can you tell us
19 A. I can't give you a specific example when this was done, but I know
20 that there was talk of specials from Serbia brought prisoners and then
21 released them, with the sole purpose of extracting money from them.
22 Q. Tell me: To you, as a man who spent 20 years of active service in
23 the police, what was your attitude towards such acts and such behaviour
24 and occurrences that you've just described?
25 A. Of course negative.
1 Q. Can you tell me now: Did you ever go inside the TO building, you
2 personally, during the time that prisoners were kept there?
3 A. Never. It was only once that I went into a room where prisoners
4 were kept, and that was when -- because I wanted to see Kemal Bobic,
5 aforementioned, about whom I had -- I heard that he had been imprisoned.
6 And I asked the commander of the police station where Kemal was, and when
7 he told me that Kemal was in the office in the lower part of the SUP
8 building, in an office almost opposite the duty officer's room, I went to
9 see him. On that occasion, apart from Kemal, I saw an office full of
10 other citizens of Samac. I didn't spend a long time there. I gave some
11 cigarettes to Kemal and I left. That was the only time that, apart from
12 conducting interviews, individual interviews with detainees, that was the
13 only time I had entered a detention room.
14 Q. Can you tell me: On that occasion when you entered that
15 particular office, what can you tell us about the conditions of
16 accommodation of these people there?
17 A. The conditions were terrible. You can imagine when a room, say,
18 that is 12 metres square large, more or less, that when there are 10 or 15
19 people in there.
20 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to ask you some questions about specials
21 from the police. We have started about this subject, and you said that
22 they had beaten up prisoners. Can you tell me: How frequently did you
23 see them at the police station?
24 A. On a daily basis almost, except that it was very rarely that they
25 came to the crime department premises. They could be found more with
1 Chief Todorovic, and if he wasn't around, they would go to the office that
2 Todorovic normally occupied.
3 Q. What was the relationship between Todorovic and the specials?
4 A. Close.
5 Q. Can you expand a little on that "close"? Did they socialise?
6 Were they seen together?
7 A. They were very frequently together. They were often socialising,
8 they were often together in his office. That's the basis on which I
9 concluded that that was their relationship.
10 Q. Now, can you tell me: What was the attitude of Simo Zaric towards
11 Stevan Todorovic?
12 A. Poor. I think it was on the borderline of animosity.
13 Q. Were you present during some of their rows or any public arguments
14 that they may have had?
15 A. It could be observed, even from a distance -- I mean, on one
16 occasion I was present when Simo Zaric asked Stevan to release some
17 prisoners, and Todorovic refused that point blank. So I said to Simo,
18 half joking, that it would be better to ask Stevan to do something that he
19 wouldn't want to happen in order to get what you want to happen. So what
20 I mean is that Todorovic had -- was allergic to Simo.
21 Q. Was Todorovic in any way superior to Simo Zaric?
22 A. No. That was the main reason why this relationship was as it
23 was. Simo was a member of the army and Stevan Todorovic simply couldn't
24 bear the fact that at that time he was not able to order someone about.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, could I have just a few minutes of
1 private session? Because there is one name that we don't like to be
2 mentioned publicly, and it is involving an incidents. So we wouldn't feel
3 good about mentioning this name publicly. It wouldn't last more than a
4 minute or two.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll go into private session.
6 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Sir, so that we can have a clear picture about all the things that
14 were happening in the police and who was authorised to do what, can you
15 tell me: You, as an inspector, as a police inspector, did you have the
16 authority, did you have the right to issue a warrant of arrest or to
17 release someone from police detention?
18 A. I had no such authority. Neither did my first superior, Milos
20 Q. Can you tell me, then: Who was the one who made decisions about
21 this? Who had the authority?
22 A. The exclusive right to that, Stevan Todorovic had that. He was
23 the chief of the security station.
24 Q. Was it possible for anyone else to release a person of their own
25 free will, a person who had been arrested, apart from Stevan Todorovic?
1 A. No one else. No one else. That's certain.
2 Q. Thank you. After the 20th, in the next few days, you were still
3 working in the police station and you were doing your work as you were
4 told. Now, can you tell me: Did you conduct an interview with Dragan
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Now, tell me: What was your personal relationship with Dragan
9 A. Well, I worked with -- I had worked with Dragan Lukac before I
10 retired. We had good, friendly relationship.
11 Q. What is your opinion about him as a professional, about him as a
12 policeman? Is he a good policeman?
13 A. An extremely good policeman.
14 Q. Even today, do you have any kind of relationship with Dragan
16 A. We just once spoke on the phone.
17 Q. That was after the war?
18 A. After the war, perhaps a year or a year and a half ago.
19 Q. Now, tell me about the circumstances surrounding the taking of
20 statement from Dragan Lukac. How was that? What was the condition of
21 Dragan Lukac? How was all this proceeding?
22 A. Well, Dragan Lukac was brought to me on that day. As I said, we
23 had worked together. And apart from the fact that it was very unpleasant
24 for me to speak to him, it did happen. We spoke for a long time about the
25 circumstances I mentioned before. And then in the end, Lukac himself
1 dictated his statement that we then both signed.
2 Q. So if I understood you correctly, you did not dictate the
3 statement of Dragan Lukac to the typist; it's Dragan Lukac who did it
5 A. He did it himself. Then we signed.
6 Q. Was this your only meeting with Dragan Lukac during the period of
7 his detention, or did you see him on another occasion?
8 A. It was not the only meeting. After I left the SUP - in fact, I
9 was forced to leave - I went on several occasions back to SUP, and it was
10 through the police commander, the police station commander, I managed to
11 get to Lukac to take some cigarettes to him and sit down and chat to him
12 for a while.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that you took a statement from Esad
14 Dagovic or, as you called him, Ekac?
15 A. Yes, certainly. I remember him because of the way that he dressed
16 and the way he behaved. He was always extremely well dressed. And I knew
17 him very well, just like I knew all the others.
18 Q. So you conducted an interview with him?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In relation to him, did you perhaps give him a blank piece of
21 paper to sign?
22 A. No, I didn't. There was no need for that.
23 Q. In that statement, you talked to him about the circumstances
24 surrounding his activity on the 16th and 17th of April, whether he was a
25 member of any of the units, whether he was armed. You examined all these
1 circumstances with all the other interviewees. Did you ask him the same
3 A. Yes, I did. I talked to Mr. Blagojevic [as interpreted] about the
4 circumstances like I talked to all the other interviewees, the same way.
5 But in his case, I asked about him turning up in possession of weapons on
6 the 17th of April, because I had seen him, as I've said, from my flat,
7 earlier. As far as I remember, he was refusing to admit to his
8 participation in units established by the SDA. He refused to admit that
9 he was present in the open area outside the department store on the 17th
10 of April, armed.
11 Q. How was his statement eventually put together? What did you
13 A. The same that he told me. I think he told me that he had never
14 taken part in those units, nor was he armed on the 17th of April.
15 However, I included in this official statement my own observations, and
16 it's probably attached to Dagovic's statement or the statements by other
17 members of the group that I had observed on the 17th of April.
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one small correction in the transcript, on
19 page 48, line 23. It's Mr. Dagovic, not Mr. Blagojevic. We were talking
20 about --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It will be corrected.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Sir, when you were taking those statements from a number of
24 prisoners, did you ever use physical force or violence? Did you ever
25 threaten anyone? Did you ever use force in general?
1 A. No, never.
2 Q. Those statements that you dictated on the basis of what the
3 interviewees were telling you, did you include in those statements
4 anything that the interviewees had not actually said themselves?
5 A. No, never.
6 Q. Can you please tell us, concerning the procedure itself: Once you
7 have taken a statement of one of the prisoners, what happens to that
8 statement next, as far as you were concerned?
9 A. All the statements that I took from prisoners I would hand over to
10 my superior, Milos Savic, at the end of the day.
11 Q. Do you know what happened to those statements after that?
12 A. I don't know.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: I would like to present into evidence a videotape
14 with the interior of the police station. It is already in the technical
15 booth, and the Prosecution already has a copy of this tape.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: For the witness.
18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lazarevic. Could I just -- I'd
19 just like to ask the witness a question.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Apropos what he's just said.
22 Mr. Sarkanovic, you mentioned, in response to a question by
23 Mr. Lazarevic on page 49, lines 10 to 12, concerning the statement of Mr.
24 Esad Dagovic, that -- well, the words here are: "I included in this
25 official statement my own observations, and it's probably attached to
1 Dagovic's statement or the statements by other members of the group."
2 Then you were asked another question by Mr. Lazarevic, same page, line 22,
3 whether you included in those statements anything that the interviewees
4 had not actually said themselves, and your answer was: "No, never." And
5 I'm just wondering whether you could explain both of those answers, how
6 they tie in together as to what was included by you. Maybe you could
7 clarify that, Mr. Lazarevic, before we move on.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, yes. I understood it perfectly in B/C/S, and
9 maybe the witness can clarify.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Can you please answer Judge Williams' question.
11 First of all, you said that you had never added to the statements anything
12 that the interviewees themselves had not actually said. But what I want
13 to know now, as to your personal observations, the ones that you attached
14 to the statement, can you just tell me about that, please?
15 A. My observations concerning the 17th of April, 1992, I drew up an
16 official note on what I had observed on that day, and this document, this
17 official note, I then gave to my superior. At a later stage, when we were
18 taking statements, Dagovic's statement, Atic's statement, for example,
19 this official note, on my own personal observations, was simply attached
20 to those statements. It was not part of the statement. It was merely
21 attached. But by looking at this official note, you could see my
23 Q. So that was a separate document merely attached to the statements,
24 your own personal note on your observations on the 17th of April, and the
25 statement itself is a different document altogether.
1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Sir, you told us about how many years you had spent at the police
4 station. I think you are a witness who is really best placed to tell us
5 about the disposition of certain rooms inside the police station and
6 anything else in connection with the defence of Mr. Zaric. We shall show
7 a tape now. I'll ask for the tape to be stopped at certain points when I
8 want to ask you a question in relation to something that we can see on the
10 [Videotape played]
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Stop right there for a moment.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I think everyone knows by now that this is
13 the police station in Bosanski Samac. Can you please just tell me: There
14 are two doors here. Which one is the entrance to the police station?
15 A. This is the south side of the police station. To the left is the
16 entrance, and to the right is an entrance through which you get to
17 personnel affairs and people who issue IDs.
18 THE INTERPRETER: May counsel please speak closer to the
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic, can you be closer to the microphone.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Yes, thank you.
22 Okay. We can go ahead with the tape.
23 [Videotape played]
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the main entrance to the
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't hear the witness because
2 there's too much noise from the tape.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: You heard that, Mr. Lazarevic?
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, but this is not -- this part is not
7 particularly interesting. The witness -- well, okay.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: We'll stop the sequence when we find something
11 Okay. We can stop now.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sarkanovic, tell us, please: We're in the
13 police station now. It's quite obvious. What can you see in the lower
14 right corner of this image?
15 A. In the lower right corner there's a desk in the duty room of the
16 police station, and right in front of us is a staircase leading up to the
17 first floor of the police station.
18 Q. We can say, therefore, that the duty room, or duty officer's room,
19 is to the right of the entrance to the police station, just to the right?
20 A. Yes, that's true. To the right. The opposite side of the
21 corridor, stretching left and right, the whole length of the building.
22 Q. Very well. You can see the staircase, and then in the lower left
23 corner you can see another window, or is it a door? Can you please tell
24 us what this is, what you can see in the lower left corner.
25 A. That is a door opening onto the yard where the garage was.
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: We can go ahead now with the tape.
2 [Videotape played]
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the passage to the yard, the
4 exit to the yard.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Stop, please, now. We'll have to go back a bit.
6 You see the corridor. A little bit more. Yes. Thank you.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Now, sir, you enter the police station, and this
8 is the corridor to the left, isn't it?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. Can you now list, refer to all the doors and which rooms do these
11 doors lead to?
12 A. The first door to the right leads to a room that's divided into
13 two smaller sections. Those two sections were used as detention rooms for
14 prisoners, at least while I worked there. The door to the left, that's --
15 it's the office, when I spoke about my visit to Kemal Bobic, that's where
16 I found Kemal Bobic.
17 Q. Can you please tell us: The first or the second door?
18 A. The first door to the left.
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: For the record --
20 A. There's another door after that, leading to another room, through
21 which personnel officers enter, and they receive their clients on the
22 other side, the outer side.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Therefore, the room in which you visited Kemal
24 Bobic is just opposite, just across the corridor from the rooms that were
25 being used as detention rooms?
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. They're facing each other; they're exactly opposite the corridor?
3 A. That's correct.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: We can move on.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can we stop now?
7 Q. [Interpretation] Is this the office where you found Kemal Bobic
8 and the others, the other prisoners?
9 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes, that's the room.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can I have one moment, please?
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. When you saw Kemal Bobic in this room, could you see all the
15 furniture that we can see in this image in the room?
16 A. I don't think I can say, for the simple reason that the room was
17 full of prisoners. So I was surrounded by prisoners and I couldn't see
18 anything else that may have been in the room.
19 Q. Very well. But what I want to know now is something else. I
20 think you can actually see it in this footage, in this tape. Can we agree
21 that the lock on this door is on the left-hand side of the door?
22 A. Yes. That's rather obvious.
23 Q. And also that the door opens onto the room in which the prisoners
25 A. Yes, from left to right.
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, can we have this in the transcript?
2 May the record reflect that the way of the doors are opened and
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because you've just discussed that with the
5 witness, so it's already on record.
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you. Thank you.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, a person in this room, a person detained in
8 this room, would this person be able to see the way we're looking now, the
9 left-hand side of the corridor?
10 A. Depending on the exact position of this person. If the person's
11 in the room, all they can see is the door opposite, the door to the
12 detention room. If they move further towards the exit, then perhaps they
13 can see both the left and the right side.
14 Q. With the door open like this, a person inside the room, can they,
15 the way we're looking at it now, can they, from that position, see the
16 left side of the corridor, unless they leave the room altogether?
17 A. Well, they, they could, but that very much depends on how deep in
18 the room this person is. If it's this way, then yes; if it's that way,
19 then no.
20 Q. Tell me something else, please: You worked at this station until
21 1987, and for a while in 1992. This footage was taken in 2002. Has
22 anything changed in terms of how the doors open or the position of any of
23 the doors?
24 A. No, nothing has changed.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Okay. We can move on with the tape.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Stop now, and go back a little bit. A little
3 bit. Yes. Thank you.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, this is precisely what we talked about.
5 What can you see across the way?
6 A. These were the detention rooms.
7 Q. We can see two doors there, can't we? Were both of these doors,
8 doors to detention rooms?
9 A. The one to the right is the toilet, and the one to the left is the
10 detention room.
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: We can move on.
12 [Videotape played]
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Okay. Stop now. Can we stop now?
14 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can you please tell me: What is this room?
15 A. This was used as a detention room for detained persons.
16 Q. Can we therefore say that this room is exactly opposite the room
17 in which the prisoners were kept, on the other side, on the opposite side?
18 A. Well, nearly. The door to the room opposite faces partly the door
19 to this room and partly the door to the toilet.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I was just informed by my client
21 that he is feeling very, very bad. He has seen a doctor, a specialist,
22 yesterday, and he was examined. His condition is not very good. I don't
23 believe that it's an appropriate moment for me to tell the Trial Chamber
24 all the details, but he hasn't received any painkillers or anything since
25 this morning, and he informed me that he cannot proceed any more.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, Mr. Lazarevic. We'll take a break for 20
3 minutes. During that break, please let us know any progress.
4 The Court will rise.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12.41 p.m.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Zaric has already been
9 taken to the Detention Unit, and I believe that he's -- I hope that he's
10 by now in the hospital. For a couple of days he's been suffering a lot of
11 pains, and I informed the Trial Chamber about all this. He was examined
12 yesterday by a specialist of internal medicine, and Mr. Zaric actually
13 needs surgery. And this is what the medical doctor informed him about
15 Mr. Zaric spoke with Mr. Pisarevic and myself this morning and he
16 was really trying to avoid all this. He said that he's in the middle of
17 his case and he really doesn't feel like going for surgery at this moment,
18 and he actually tried to schedule this for the month of May. But as Your
19 Honours have already seen, he lost consciousness in one second. He
20 informed me, through Mr. Pisarevic that he's suffering terrible pains and
21 he lost consciousness and he really couldn't proceed any more. And
22 frankly I feel very concerned about his health condition. I didn't have
23 the opportunity to approach him and to discuss about any possibilities of
24 waiving his right of being present here, but honestly, these are some of
25 most important witnesses for him in this case. And I don't believe that
1 he will waive his right to being present at this point. Mr. Pisarevic and
2 myself, we have scheduled a meeting with Mr. Zaric for 3.00 today, and we
3 will try to see what his condition is to discuss this issue with the
4 manager of the Detention Unit, Mr. McFadden, and see about possible steps
5 that need to be undertaken in respect to his condition.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll have to adjourn, in view of Mr. Zaric's
8 health condition. The Trial Chamber, in the meantime, will, depending on
9 the medical reports and the reports from counsel, we may have to
10 reorganise the witnesses' schedule, because we have other witnesses which
11 don't necessarily concern Mr. Zaric, and see how to proceed further.
12 So we'll adjourn.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.46 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of
15 March 2003, at 9.00 a.m.