Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17429

1 Wednesday, 26 March 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. You're continuing.

10 WITNESS: TEODOR TUTNJEVIC [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

13 Examined by Mr. Pisarevic: [Continued]

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Tutnjevic. When we broke for

15 the day yesterday, you said that you had driven Mr. Zaric twice to the

16 communication centre in Bosanski Samac. Please, tell us how you drove Mr.

17 Zaric to the communication centre the first time, and what did you hear

18 and see there?

19 A. One day I think it was in the early days of the events in Samac, I

20 don't remember the date, Mr. Zaric told me, come on Toso, let's go to the

21 communication centre. Some people from Odzak told me to come to a meeting

22 [as interpreted]. We got into the car outside the command and we went to

23 the communication centre.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, we have some misunderstanding here

25 about what the witness said here on page 1, line 20 -- 21, sorry. "Some

Page 17430

1 people from Odzak told me to come to a meeting." It looks like people

2 from Odzak were waiting for a meeting with Mr. Zaric and this is not

3 actually what the witness said, because we know actually more or less what

4 happened there.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think we can go over that, Mr. Pisarevic.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour.

7 Q. There is a problem, Mr. Tutnjevic, in the interpretation of your

8 words. So please could you just repeat this part that you spoke about?

9 A. One day, in the early days of the events in Samac, I can't

10 remember the exact date, Mr. Zaric told me, "Come on, Toso, let's go to

11 the communication centre. Some people from Odzak are looking for me.

12 They want me to talk to them about something."

13 Q. Was that in late May, if you can remember?

14 A. I am not sure, but yes, it was in May, but I'm not sure whether it

15 was late May or another period.

16 Q. Did Mr. Zaric perhaps tell you then that some people from the

17 Crisis Staff from Odzak were looking for him?

18 A. Yes, he did, from the Crisis Staff in Odzak.

19 Q. So did you go with Mr. Zaric to the communication centre?

20 A. Yes, we got into the car and we went to the communication centre.

21 Q. Who did you find there?

22 A. When we reached the communication centre, we found Mr. Kosta

23 Simic, who worked at the centre. With him there was another man, I know

24 his first name was Radovan, he also worked at the centre, and there was

25 another person but I don't remember who.

Page 17431

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)we had already arrived when he

3 came, accompanied by two police officers.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we could go

5 into private session perhaps since we are referring to a witness.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can we go into private session?

7 [Private session]

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23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [No interpretation]

Page 17437

1 MR. WEINER: Sorry, we are not receiving any interpretation.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: We are not receiving any interpretation.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English booth now?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. How did the further conversation go between Mr. Zaric and this

7 person who came and said to Mr. Zaric that he was coming from the Crisis

8 Staff meeting of Odzak and what did he say to Mr. Zaric on that occasion?

9 A. The first thing he said was that he had authorisation from the

10 Crisis Staff in Odzak to release some members from Simo's family and to

11 let them go to the other side, to the territory of Bosanski Samac, and he

12 said that Mr. Zaric should dictate the names of these family members of

13 his to him. He had a piece of paper in front of him and he would write

14 them down. Mr. Zaric then raised his voice a bit and said, "Even if my

15 mother, Mileva were there, I would not say that that is my family. My

16 family are all these, I think he said 4.000 persons, and you haven't got

17 enough paper to write down all of their names."

18 Q. What was the reaction of this person that Mr. Zaric was talking

19 to?

20 A. That man on the other side of the line also raised his voice when

21 responding to Mr. Zaric. I had the feeling that he was upset because

22 Mr. Zaric spoke to him that way. He said that Mr. Zaric was impudent,

23 that he was rude, and he addressed a few other bad words to him, and he

24 said, finally, that he would come to Samac in a few days and that he would

25 hang Mr. Zaric.

Page 17438

1 Q. How did Mr. Zaric react to all these insults and threats?

2 A. Mr. Zaric then reacted by raising his voice, he got up and he said

3 that he would no longer want to speak to him, and he said that nobody

4 should call him there at the communication centre and that is when he

5 ended the conversation.

6 Q. When he said that they should no longer call him for such

7 conversations, is this what he said to Kosta Simic?

8 A. He addressed this to Mr. Kosta Simic and the others who were

9 there.

10 Q. And after that, what did you do?

11 A. After that, we got into the car and went to the command.

12 Q. Thank you. After that, did you ever drive Mr. Zaric to this

13 centre in Bosanski Samac?

14 A. From then, throughout the time while we were together, I never

15 took Mr. Zaric again to this centre. Never.

16 Q. Since you were with Mr. Zaric very often, do you know whether he

17 ever went to that centre again, this communication centre?

18 A. I never heard from anyone that he was driven there, that he went

19 there.

20 Q. Thank you. In your testimony, you said how you became a driver in

21 the command of the 4th Detachment, and that you drove a passenger vehicle,

22 so tell me now, did you mark this passenger vehicle in any way? Did you

23 put anything on it when you used the vehicle?

24 A. When I was at the line on the first day, I had a white ribbon on

25 the left-hand side of my blouse. I had it tied to the epaulette of the

Page 17439

1 blouse and I wore this -- I mean in addition to the ribbon, I wore on my

2 own clothing, I had a white ribbon on the antenna of the vehicle but they

3 weren't always white, the colours changed.

4 Q. Were there other signs like this on other vehicles that were used

5 by the army, the civilian Defence, other public institutions?

6 A. We had yet another vehicle at the command of the 4th Battalion and

7 it had this same kind of white ribbon. I also noticed on other vehicles,

8 I mean even civilians would take these white ribbons and tie them on their

9 upper arm.

10 Q. You said 4th Battalion. That's what it says here. Is that what

11 you meant or what did you mean?

12 A. I meant the 4th Detachment.

13 Q. When you mentioned now that civilians wore these white ribbons,

14 which civilians wore that? What was their ethnic background?

15 A. This was worn by civilians of all ethnic backgrounds. It wasn't

16 that anybody ordered that, they did it at their own initiative, most

17 probably for their own safety.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. WEINER: Objection. I move to strike that last portion of the

20 statement. It's speculation.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That will be struck off.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You mentioned this other vehicle. When did the command of the 4th

24 Detachment obtain from the Ministry of Defence, department for Bosanski

25 Samac, this other vehicle for their use?

Page 17440

1 A. I cannot know the date, but it was about 20 days later.

2 Q. Could you tell us, if you can remember, who was the driver of this

3 vehicle?

4 A. The driver of this vehicle was Mladen Radovic.

5 Q. Did he have some kind of a nickname?

6 A. Rode was his nickname.

7 Q. So who did Mladen Radovic nicknamed Rode drive?

8 A. At that time, I only drove Mr. Simo Zaric, and he drove the rest,

9 the other members of the command of the 4th Detachment.

10 Q. Thank you. Do you know anything, and if so please tell us how you

11 came to know this, what happened to Simo Zaric at the police station when

12 the war started in Bosanski Samac?

13 A. Once I brought Mr. Zaric to the police station, and he went inside

14 and I remained outside. Soon afterwards, he walked out. I noticed that

15 he was angry. He got into the car and I asked him what happened to you?

16 And he said, "Imagine this kid put a pistol in my mouth." And I said,

17 "Which kid?" And he said, "One of those volunteers who came from

18 Serbia." They called him Vuk. And he put a pistol in his mouth. I did

19 not see this but that's what Mr. Zaric told me in the car.

20 Q. Did he tell him -- did he tell you that they had insulted him,

21 threatened him, et cetera?

22 A. He said that to me as well.

23 Q. Do you remember whether somebody came to the command and said to

24 Mr. Zaric that he was supposed to report to the police station?

25 A. On that day, Milos, Culap came and told him that he had to report

Page 17441

1 to the police station and that's why we went to the police station.

2 Q. Do you perhaps know the last name of this man?

3 A. His last name was is Culapovic. He is called Milos Culapovic.

4 But everybody called him by the nickname Culap.

5 Q. What do you know about the replacement of commander Antic and what

6 were the reasons for which he resigned his post as commander of the 4th

7 Detachment?

8 A. As for Mr. Antic, Mr. Radovan Antic, I know that in Obudovac,

9 these volunteers from Serbia maltreated him, hit him. And put him in

10 prison where he spent one night, and then when they released him,

11 Mr. Radovan Antic said that he no longer wanted to be commander of the 4th

12 Detachment, that's what I know.

13 Q. After Radovan Antic, who was appointed commander of the 4th

14 Detachment?

15 A. After Mr. Antic, his deputy, Jovo Savic, was appointed commander

16 of the 4th Detachment.

17 Q. Thank you. Do you know when the Army of Republika Srpska was

18 established?

19 A. The Army of Republika Srpska was established during the month of

20 May, when the Yugoslav People's Army had to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 That's when the decision was reached to establish the Army of Republika

22 Srpska. The Yugoslav army had to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 19th of

23 May.

24 Q. Do you know of the fact that the members of the Yugoslav People's

25 Army who were born in Serbia and Montenegro on the 19th of May actually

Page 17442

1 did leave the territory of the municipality of Samac and Pelagicevo?

2 A. The Yugoslav People's Army had to leave the territory of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 19th of May and that is when Mr. Nikolic left

4 Pelagicevo as well as everybody else who was a member of the Yugoslav

5 People's Army.

6 Q. Thank you. And was there some new organisation now of military

7 units of the Army of Republika Srpska in the territory of Bosanski Samac?

8 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, line 14 -- I'm sorry, page 14, lines

9 that they -- the answer there, "The Yugoslav People's Army had to leave

10 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 19th of May, and that is when

11 Nikolic left Pelagicevo as well as everyone else who was a member of the

12 Yugoslav People's Army." Does he mean the members in Bosanski Samac that

13 were born in Serbia and Montenegro? Is he talking about all of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina? I don't believe this witness has the proper training

15 and has done any research to determine whether or not members of the

16 Yugoslav army left throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's not clear what he

17 means by everyone. Does he mean everyone in the Samac area, the area that

18 he's familiar with or is he talking about all of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 Because if he is talking about all of Bosnia-Herzegovina, he doesn't have

20 the -- there is no factual basis to support his statement. In fact, as

21 the Court knows, the United Nations through the Security Council on two or

22 three occasions demanded them to leave. They did it twice during the

23 summer and again they finally indicated on December 2nd that they finally

24 had left, and that was even questionable because the air force was still

25 there through 1993.

Page 17443

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner let the defence put their case as they

2 see it. So the witness can answer and all he has to do is explain

3 whether, as Mr. Weiner said, he means -- he meant the whole of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina or just Bosanski Samac. If he meant the whole Bosnia

5 and Herzegovina, then he must explain the basis of his knowledge.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I have

7 understood the objections of my colleague, the Prosecutor, and I

8 understand what he wants to know but my question was precise. I asked the

9 witness what he knew about the departure of the members of the Yugoslav

10 People's Army who had been born in Serbia and Montenegro, about their

11 departure from the municipality of Samac and Pelagicevo, but let me

12 clarify it.

13 Q. You understood what I asked you, didn't you? You are talking

14 about the area of the municipality of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is that it?

17 A. Precisely.

18 Q. You were not talking about all of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. I'm not qualified to talk about matters like that. I meant the

20 area of Pelagicevo and Bosanski Samac.

21 Q. Thank you. You are aware of the fact that I asked you whether

22 those were only people who had been born in Serbia and Montenegro?

23 A. Yes, yes, certainly.

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours I think we've got the

25 situation clarified now.

Page 17444

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Which unit of the Army of Republika Srpska was established for the

4 territory of Samac and Pelagicevo municipalities?

5 A. The 2nd Posavina Infantry Brigade came into being.

6 Q. This 2nd Posavina Infantry Brigade, where in Republika Srpska did

7 it have its command?

8 A. In Pelagicevo.

9 Q. Thank you. Were there any new structures or organisational

10 changes in Samac, in the town of Samac, as far as the lower ranking

11 military units were concerned?

12 A. The 4th Detachment ceased to exist and the 5th Battalion came into

13 existence.

14 Q. Who was the commander of the 5th Battalion of the Army of

15 Republika Srpska?

16 A. The commander of the 5th Battalion, that was Mr. Jovo Savic.

17 Q. Are you aware of the fact of who the -- who became the commander

18 when Jovo Savic, who had been the commander up to that point, was

19 replaced?

20 A. After Jovo Savic, Mladen Radovic, nicknamed Rode, became the

21 commander.

22 Q. Thank you. Can you remember who was appointed commander of the

23 2nd Posavina Infantry Brigade of the Army of Republika Srpska?

24 A. After Mr. Nikolic left, Colonel Mico Djurdjevic was appointed

25 commander of that brigade. He hailed from the same village as I.

Page 17445

1 Q. Will you please just tell us what is the name of that village in

2 which Colonel Mico Djurdjevic had been born and which municipality and

3 which republic is it a part of?

4 A. The village is called Tisina, the distance between Bosanski Samac

5 and Tisina is two kilometres. It is part of the Bosanski Samac

6 municipality and it is in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. Do you know how long Colonel Mico Djurdjevic remained in the

8 position of the commander of the 2nd Posavina Infantry Brigade?

9 A. Mr. Djurdjevic did not stay there for a very long time. He did

10 not stay the commander of the 2nd Posavina Brigade for a long time. He

11 stayed for perhaps seven or eight days but not more.

12 Q. Do you know anything about the dismissal or removal of Colonel

13 Djurdjevic from his position as commander of the 2nd Posavina Infantry

14 Brigade of the Army of Republika Srpska?

15 A. I can't remember the exact day but one day Mr. Zaric told me,

16 "Toso, let's go to the heating plant. I have to go to a session of the

17 Crisis Staff." I drove him to the heating plant. He climbed upstairs

18 into the rooms and I remained downstairs with other soldiers. There were

19 those who worked for the Crisis Staff. And after a while, Simo came, we

20 got into the car, and he said, "Take me to the command." When he got into

21 the car he said a new commander had been appointed. What sort of

22 commander? The commander of the 2nd Posavina Brigade because

23 Mr. Djurdjevic had been removed or replaced and I said well, who is the

24 new commander? And he said, Mr. Djordjevic has become commander. One of

25 the police officers who had arrived from Serbia. I don't know -- I no

Page 17446

1 longer remember what his first name was.

2 Q. Thank you. Do you know that at the police station in Bosanski

3 Samac, at the TO staff building, in the gym of the elementary school

4 building, and the gym of the secondary school building in Bosanski Samac,

5 there were people being held in detention, non-Serbs? What do you know

6 about that?

7 A. I know about the elementary school building and the secondary

8 school building about people being held in detention there but Croats

9 only. As far as the TO staff building is concerned, most of the people

10 being held there were Muslims and maybe some Croats.

11 Q. How did you learn about this?

12 A. I learned this in my conversations with people, with police

13 officers. I did go to the TO building very often, where I saw my

14 neighbours and other citizens of Samac. Muslims mostly lived in the town

15 of Samac.

16 Q. You said that you went very often to the TO staff building's

17 yard. Let me ask you, did you go into the rooms where those people were

18 being held?

19 A. No, never. I never entered any of the rooms but I did enter the

20 yard and it was quite a large area outside the TO staff building.

21 Q. Can you please explain why you went to the TO yard?

22 A. I even drove into the yard once. Usually I would go because I had

23 many friends who were there. I would bring medicine to them, food, and

24 cigarettes, and fresh laundry for them to wear, fresh underwear.

25 Q. Can you tell us about this once that you drove, as you said, into

Page 17447

1 the TO staff yard? Why did you drive into the yard in a car on that day?

2 A. I arrived outside the SUP building. I bought Mr. Zaric there, and

3 then when I got out of the car, I noticed a number of civilians who were

4 hiding behind corners with bags in their hands. Some had food in the bags

5 and some had clothes for a change of clothes. I got sick of this whole

6 thing. I came up to a police officer and I asked him whether I could

7 drive a car into the yard to get it washed. He said that I could. I

8 walked about 50 metres from the building to a small side street and I told

9 one of those women who was holding a bag in her hand, that she should

10 bring the stuff to me and that I would put it in the car. So I drove the

11 car into the yard because the police officer had allowed me to, as there

12 was a fountain in the middle of the yard, I said that I would wash the

13 car. I took pen and paper, I made a list of which bag belonged to whom,

14 some bags contained clothes, some bags contained food, I put it inside and

15 I gave it back to people. I distributed this to people. I brought some

16 medicine for one of them too.

17 Q. If I understood you correctly, you only drove into the yard in

18 order to be able to take food and medicine and clothes into the yard?

19 A. Yes, that precisely was the reason.

20 Q. Can you please tell us the names of those people, any of those

21 people, if you remember?

22 A. Azem Gibic, he was a Muslim. He was ill. I think he was

23 epileptic. That's what I'd understood. I used to get the same kind of

24 medicine in Serbia before, and I'd bring the medicine to a young boy who

25 was epileptic. Azem Gibic, Fahro Dubric, Perica Misic, Muradif Coralic,

Page 17448

1 and there were some other persons there now but I can't remember all of

2 them.

3 Q. We have some problems with the transcript, not all the names were

4 properly entered. So please can you just say them once again slowly?

5 A. Azem Gibic, Fahro Dubric, Perica Misic, Muradif Coralic, and there

6 were other people there too but I can't remember all the names.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you. Mr. Tutnjevic, did you also bring food and

8 medicine or fresh underwear to some people at the police station? If so,

9 please tell us their names and how did you manage to do that?

10 A. Yes. Yes. I brought things to the police station too, every

11 other day I would bring chief [as interpreted] Zaimbegovic clean sheets,

12 that is clean underwear for a change of clothes. I was very good friends

13 with Esref and I would use every opportunity when Mr. Zaric went to the

14 SUP, I would see the duty officer and ask him to allow me to give these

15 things to Esref, the duty officer would usually bring Esref outside to the

16 hall. I would give him the messages from home and I would give him the

17 things that I'd brought for him.

18 Q. You did not go into the rooms at the police station building where

19 those people were being held in detention?

20 A. No. I never entered a single room there.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, one small correction in the

22 transcript, in on page 20, line 12, it says, "chief Zaimbegovic" which

23 might suggest that he was some sort of police chief or something like that

24 but actually his name is Esref, just that correction.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

Page 17449

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Tutnjevic, until when did you stay in the 4th Detachment,

3 which later became the 5th Battalion of the Army of Republika Srpska?

4 A. I stayed with the 5th Battalion until the second half of July,

5 1992.

6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zaric, was he with the 4th Detachment and later

7 with the 5th Battalion of the Army of Republika Srpska for the whole of

8 this time?

9 A. Yes, he was, throughout the period, with the 5th Battalion.

10 Q. Mr. Zaric, was he ever a member of the police in Bosanski Samac?

11 A. Mr. Zaric was only a member of the 4th Detachment, nothing else,

12 the 4th Detachment.

13 Q. And later a member of the 5th Battalion?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Which were Mr. Zaric's tasks, with the detachment and later the

16 battalion, for the whole of this period?

17 A. In the 4th Detachment, he was assistant commander for intelligence

18 and security affairs.

19 Q. Did he have the same tasks with the 5th Battalion later on?

20 A. Yes, he had the same tasks.

21 Q. So you are in Samac for the whole of this time. Mr. Zaric and

22 you, did you have any contacts with the citizens of Bosanski Samac, the

23 non-Serb citizens of Bosanski Samac? If so, please tell us what it was

24 about.

25 A. We had frequent contacts with non-Serbs. Mostly they were

Page 17450

1 prepared to go to the shelter as soon as the shelling began. Usually in

2 the evening, they would sit around and talk late in the evening as they

3 were sitting next to the door to the shelter, Mr. Zaric and I would

4 usually be invited. We would go and visit them and talk to them for a

5 while.

6 Q. You have referred to the shelling. It was wartime. People were

7 getting killed along the front lines. Were there many burials taking

8 place in Samac in that period?

9 A. Yes, there were quite a number of burials, especially in the early

10 days, sometimes as many as four or five a day and there were days when

11 there was not a single burial taking place.

12 Q. Who was the person who most frequently spoke at these burials for

13 those members of the Army of Republika Srpska who had been killed or the

14 soldiers of the 4th Detachment of the JNA?

15 A. Mr. Simo Zaric was usually the speaker at these funerals.

16 Q. At that time, did Mr. Simo Zaric attend the burials of other

17 citizens, other -- his other fellow citizens of Samac, Muslims and Croats?

18 A. Whenever he could, he attended those funerals, regardless of the

19 fact whether the person being buried was Muslim, Serb or a Croat, just

20 like it was before the war.

21 Q. So you went together to these funerals, you know this from

22 personal observation?

23 A. Yes. We went together.

24 Q. Do you know anything about Djuro Prgomet's family, a Croat from

25 Bosanski Samac?

Page 17451

1 A. I know a bit about them because they were my neighbours. They

2 lived not far from me. Djuro Prgomet was a relation of Mr. Zaric.

3 Q. What kind of relation?

4 A. Simo Zaric's daughter was married to his son, and we often visited

5 the Prgomet family. He was also ill so we would bring medicine to him.

6 We would bring cigarettes, and sometimes food.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you. What do you know about the exchange which

8 took place on the 26th of May, 1992, in the village of Zasavica on the

9 River Bosna between Samac municipality and Odzak municipality? Were you

10 present there? Who else was present?

11 A. Yes, both Mr. Zaric and I attended this exchange. One day,

12 Mr. Zaric told me, Toso, come on, let's go to Zasavica, there is an

13 exchange taking place. I was told that some of my relatives would be

14 there so I want to meet them. I drove Mr. Zaric there and I was present

15 there myself.

16 Q. When you arrived in Zasavica, where did you stop? Were there

17 other citizens there or rather civilians in the village?

18 A. When we reached Zasavica, there was a small road -- track slip

19 that forks off the main road towards the River Bosna that's where we

20 left our car. We got out of the car and there were other people there,

21 mostly people from the Odzak area, because they were expecting that some

22 of their relatives would be there, and there were quite a number of people

23 there. When they brought the Croats for the exchange, they passed us by

24 in groups and they walked all the way down to the river bank of the River

25 Bosna because that's where the exchange was taking place except that no

Page 17452

1 one was allowed to be there. I know that there were representatives of

2 the International Red Cross there, representatives of the Samac Red Cross,

3 and a committee but I'm not sure who were the members of this committee

4 for exchange.

5 Q. So did Mr. Zaric meet any of his relatives, family, friends,

6 there?

7 A. I know that Mr. Zaric had no authority and no official role to

8 play in this exchange. He met two of his relatives there. We put them in

9 the car and --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner?

11 MR. WEINER: The question is did Mr. Zaric meet any of his

12 relatives. That's not an answer to the question and then he's talking

13 about Zaric's authority and official role after he's just said he doesn't

14 know who the members of the committee were. Before he can make a

15 statement like that, he's got to explain his basis of knowledge and that's

16 also not responsive to the question that was asked.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic? You understand what Mr. Weiner

18 has said?

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.

20 Q. Mr. Tutnjevic, the question was whether Mr. Zaric met any members

21 of his family, when this exchange in Zasavica took place?

22 A. He met two of his relatives. We put them into the car and we went

23 to Samac, to the Tekstilac building.

24 Q. Why did you go to the Tekstilac building?

25 A. That's where a welcome party had been organised for the people who

Page 17453

1 were coming from the exchange.

2 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Zaric participated in any way in the

3 carrying out of exchanges, their preparation, organisation, et cetera?

4 A. I know that he had no participation in exchanges whatsoever, and I

5 know that he never went to any other exchange while he was with me or

6 rather while we were together except for this one in Zasavica that I

7 mentioned.

8 Q. You mean you never drove him there?

9 A. Yes. That's right.

10 Q. And you said that in the 5th Battalion -- I mean that you were in

11 the 5th Battalion until the end of July, 1992. Where did you go -- where

12 were you assigned to towards the end of July, 1992? And who was it that

13 gave you that assignment?

14 A. Towards the end of July, 1992, a military council had been

15 established. Mr. Zaric was also a member of this council and that's when

16 we went to Odzak.

17 Q. As you say, Mr. Zaric went there and he was a member of this

18 military?

19 A. Council.

20 Q. Civilian-military council. What about you?

21 A. I went together with him and I was Mr. Zaric's driver.

22 Q. So you were not a member of the civilian-military council, you

23 were just the driver of Mr. Simo Zaric?

24 A. I was not the -- a member of the civilian-military council, but I

25 got a decision in writing from the ministry, from the military, to go

Page 17454

1 there because it was some kind of work obligation of mine.

2 Q. This decision that you got, was that the decision that was issued

3 to you by the Ministry of Defence, department in Samac?

4 A. Yes, it was signed by Mr. Ninkovic.

5 Q. Do you know who was president of this civilian-military council in

6 Odzak?

7 A. The President of the civilian-military council in Odzak was

8 Mr. Savo Popovic.

9 Q. Were there any other members of this civilian-military council?

10 A. There were other members of this civilian-military council.

11 Q. And when you came to Odzak, what did you find in Odzak when you

12 came there for the first time? What was the situation like there?

13 A. The first time we came to Odzak, we found many destroyed houses

14 there, and lots of soldiers.

15 Q. Did you find any civilians?

16 A. There weren't any civilians.

17 Q. When you came there, did you know that in the territory of the

18 municipality of Odzak there had been a military administration that had

19 been introduced?

20 A. We knew that there was a military administration, and we were not

21 allowed to move about without approval from this military administration.

22 Q. Do you know what Mr. Zaric did in Odzak?

23 A. In Odzak, Mr. Zaric carried out duties that had to do with morale,

24 religious and political matters.

25 Q. We are talking about Odzak, please. We are talking about the

Page 17455

1 civilian-military council. What did he do there? Let's do it this way.

2 We are still in Odzak?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You were Mr. Zaric's driver?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where did you drive him to while you were in Odzak and what was it

7 that Mr. Zaric did in Odzak?

8 A. For the most part I took Mr. Zaric to the civilians who lived in

9 local communes and who had come from the exchanges. That was later, when

10 exchanges took place. I took him to Samac, to the command, I took him to

11 Pelagicevo again. I took him to the commissioners in local communes.

12 That was it for the most part.

13 Q. All right. Did you and Mr. Zaric sleep in Odzak?

14 A. No. We would go home to sleep.

15 Q. When did you come to work in Odzak?

16 A. We would come in the morning at 7.00. If we went directly to

17 Odzak, but sometimes we would first stop at our command in Samac and then

18 we would go to Odzak.

19 Q. All right. When you returned from Odzak, when did you return from

20 Odzak?

21 A. Well, it depended on when Mr. Zaric would finish his work.

22 Q. Did Mr. Zaric have any contacts with the security organ in the

23 military administration?

24 A. In the military administration, there was a man in charge of

25 security, his name was Mackic. Mr. Zaric often contacted him.

Page 17456

1 Q. Did Mr. Zaric have any space of his own for work? If so, where

2 was this work space of his?

3 A. Mr. Zaric had a table in the hotel restaurant in a little corner

4 there, and that is where he conducted his work for the most part.

5 Q. What did Mr. Zaric most often do at that table?

6 A. I didn't really go into that. I didn't really go into his work.

7 I know that he mostly wrote things down.

8 Q. Are you aware of the fact that there was a department of the

9 civilian police in Odzak?

10 A. In Odzak, there was a department of the civilian police.

11 Q. Do you know who the commander of it was?

12 A. Mr. Mirko Pavic was police commander in Odzak.

13 Q. A short while ago you mentioned that you drove Mr. Zaric to local

14 communes and that you contacted commissioners there; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know who was the commissioner for the town of Odzak or

17 rather for the local commune of the town of Odzak?

18 A. For the local commune of the town of Odzak, the commissioner was

19 Mr. Dusan Gavric.

20 Q. Do you know that citizens from Bosanski Samac came to Odzak to do

21 certain work that was part of their work obligation? Do you know anything

22 about that? If so please tell us about it.

23 A. I know that citizens from Samac came for their work obligation and

24 I often had contacts with them, and they were involved in different kinds

25 of work, starting from cleaning various premises, all the way up to work

Page 17457

1 in the field.

2 Q. Was Mr. Zaric the person who decided what these people would do in

3 Odzak in relation to their work obligation?

4 A. Mr. Zaric had nothing to do with that.

5 Q. When you say Mr. Zaric had nothing to do with that, what does that

6 mean?

7 A. He's not the one who assigned them to their work duties, nor was

8 he supposed to do any such thing with these workers.

9 Q. Throughout the time while he was in Odzak, was Mr. Zaric a member

10 of the civilian-military council all the time?

11 A. Mr. Zaric was a member of the civilian-military council all the

12 time.

13 Q. So while you toured these local communes, did you perhaps drive

14 Mr. Zaric to his parents' home in Trnjak?

15 A. The very first day we came to Odzak, we went to his native

16 village, to his house.

17 Q. Please tell us what you saw there.

18 A. When we came to Mr. Zaric's house, we found embers only. The

19 house had been burned down, only the two chimneys had remained and the

20 house itself had been burned down. There was a building in the yard which

21 was totally destroyed by a shell, riddled or something. This was the

22 house in the yard outside.

23 Q. And did you go to his sister, Mara's house?

24 A. I didn't. Oh, I did. I did. She was married to a Croat. One

25 day we went to that house too.

Page 17458

1 Q. All right. And how much time did you and Mr. Zaric spend in

2 Odzak?

3 A. I can't give the exact date, but we spent about a month in Odzak,

4 perhaps a day or two more.

5 Q. Let's just be a bit more specific. You were in Odzak until --

6 A. Until the end of August, like something like that.

7 Q. And where did you go after you left Odzak?

8 A. Mr. Zaric was then assigned to go to the command of the 2nd

9 Posavina Infantry Brigade in Pelagicevo and I went with him.

10 Q. In order to go with Mr. Zaric to the 2nd Posavina Brigade of the

11 Army of Republika Srpska in Pelagicevo, did you get a new decision on your

12 appointment from the Ministry of Defence department in Samac?

13 A. I got a new decision on my appointment from the Secretariat of

14 Defence in Samac and it was just like my work obligation.

15 Q. All right. In that Posavina Infantry Brigade, were you for the

16 most part Mr. Simo Zaric's driver?

17 A. In the command of the 2nd Posavina Brigade, I was mostly the

18 driver of Mr. Simo Zaric, but from time to time I would drive another man

19 whose name is Makso but I don't know what his last name is.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you. Tell me, please, if you can remember, what

21 did Mr. Zaric do in the 2nd Posavina Infantry Brigade? What did he head

22 there and at which position was he?

23 A. He was assistant commander for morale, religious matters and

24 political matters in the 2nd Posavina Brigade.

25 Q. Well, I don't really know about political matters. Did you

Page 17459

1 perhaps mean legal matters?

2 A. Yes, legal matters, legal matters.

3 Q. Throughout September, when he took up his position as the head of

4 the -- this body for morale, religious and legal matters, what did he do

5 and where did you drive him to?

6 A. Most often I drove him to the commands of other units. I drove

7 him to the front. I drove him to Samac, to the command of the 5th

8 Battalion. I drove him wherever they said things were happening, on the

9 line or that soldiers were unhappy on the line I would drive him to such

10 places for the most part.

11 Q. You have just used an expression, the line crumbling. What did

12 you mean by that?

13 A. That means the soldiers rebelled and abandoned the line, refused

14 to hold the line.

15 Q. Were those risky or dangerous tasks that Mr. Zaric had to perform,

16 going to the front line or those sections of the line where soldiers were

17 unhappy?

18 A. Yes. Those tasks entailed a lot of danger, because wherever there

19 was heavy shelling Mr. Zaric would invariably be sent there. Wherever the

20 line had been broken through, Mr. Zaric would be sent there. Once I asked

21 Mr. Zaric, I told him, they are pushing you forward, they want to destroy

22 you. And I asked him to send me back to Odzak. And I told him, if you're

23 meant to be killed, I don't want to join you. And he said, Toso, you're

24 absolutely right. So he sent me back to Odzak. I got another decision

25 from the Secretariat for National Defence and I went back to Odzak,

Page 17460

1 whereas Mr. Zaric stayed back in Pelagicevo and I do not know what

2 happened to him from that moment on.

3 Q. When did you leave the 2nd Posavina Brigade to return to Odzak?

4 A. On the 1st of October, 1992.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Your Honours, this

6 concludes my examination-in-chief. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel, any questions?

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this

9 witness, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr.?

11 MR. PANTELIC: Couple of questions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tutnjevic, my name is Pantelic. I defend

15 Mr. Blagoje Simic. I only have a couple of questions to ask you.

16 Tell me, what is the distance between the command in Pelagicevo

17 and Samac, in terms of kilometres?

18 A. There are two roads from Pelagicevo to Samac. If you take the

19 main road, the distance is 20, 30, about 42 kilometres I'd say. If you

20 take the shortcut, across the local hamlet of Josic, I think that's the

21 name of the hamlet, that's the shortcut you can take, which the distance

22 may be about 26 kilometres.

23 Q. How long does it take to go by car from Samac to Pelagicevo?

24 A. It usually takes about 30 minutes.

25 Q. What's your personal information in relation to those people who

Page 17461

1 were being held, detained, in the SUP building in the TO building, in the

2 first weeks after the war broke out in Samac? Do you have any personal

3 information as to what the reasons had been for their detention? Were

4 those people suspected of having committed any crimes or anything? What

5 do you know about that?

6 A. I know that most of the people being held at the TO building were

7 there because they were of other ethnic backgrounds, people like

8 Izetbegovic, Grga Zubak, and several other people, according to my

9 information, had been detained because they were leaders of the SDA and

10 they were preparing certain actions that were to be taken, and they worked

11 on the division of people along ethnic lines [as interpreted]. That's as

12 far as I knew.

13 Q. What was -- what were those events that happened in Samac,

14 according to your information?

15 A. I mean the events that took place between the 16th and the 17th.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: The answer was not properly recorded, and they

17 worked on the division of people along ethnic lines. This is on page 33,

18 line 12. The witness said they were arming people on ethnic lines. This

19 is what I heard the witness said. So maybe my colleague would clarify

20 that.

21 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. What did you say a while ago when I asked you about your personal

23 information? You talked about Tihic, Izetbegovic and the rest of them.

24 Why were they detained?

25 A. Among the citizens of Serb nationality, of Serb ethnicity in

Page 17462

1 Samac, there was talk that Tihic and the group including the leaders of

2 the SDA were arming the Muslim population mostly.

3 Q. What was their intention? What was the aim? Why were they arming

4 the Muslim population? If you know, tell us, please, if not, just say so?

5 A. I don't know.

6 MR. PANTELIC: No further questions of this witness. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the Prosecution?

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Weiner:

9 Q. Good morning, sir. My name is Phillip Weiner. I work for the

10 Office of the Prosecutor and I'm going to be asking you some questions.

11 Do you understand that? Okay?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, you testified that in the spring of 1992, you served as a

14 driver for the defendant Simo Zaric and you drove him on several

15 occasions, isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you also noted that there was another driver named Rode who

18 also drove people in the command of the 4th Detachment, isn't that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes but not initially, not at the beginning.

21 Q. Now, sir, did you maintain a log, a diary, or any records of who

22 you drove each day?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. So at this time there are no records, there are no notes, as to

25 the dates, times, or the persons who you drove?

Page 17463

1 A. No, there weren't.

2 Q. So you're mainly testifying from your memory, isn't that correct,

3 sir?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. So as a result, you can't provide an exact date or an exact time

6 that you drove Simo Zaric on each occasion, such as when you drove him to

7 the communication centre? You can't say I drove him on this particular

8 date at this particular time? Isn't that correct?

9 A. As far as the first time is concerned, I can say that it was about

10 10.00 in the morning. As far as the second time is concerned, I don't

11 know.

12 Q. But you can't supply an exact date when each of these things

13 happened, as you just are trying to determine from memory and that's over

14 11 years ago that this happened, isn't that correct?

15 A. I can't remember the dates.

16 Q. And were you armed when you were driving Mr. Zaric?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what sort of arms or arm were you carrying?

19 A. I had an automatic rifle, with a fold-out butt.

20 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I believe it's time for the break now.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will continue at 1100 hours.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner? Cross-examination continuing.

25 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 17464

1 Q. Good morning again, sir. Now, you testified that you drove Simo

2 Zaric to the SUP on several occasions.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you know that the TO was directly across the street, the

5 Territorial Defence building is directly across the street from the SUP?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the defendant Zaric told you that you went there, that you

8 were going there, to interview prisoners, question prisoners, or he was

9 going there to question prisoners, not you yourself?

10 A. I don't know whether he questioned prisoners but I know that he

11 did go to the SUP building. Now, whether he took any statements from

12 those who worked at the SUP or from witnesses, I really don't know.

13 Q. Well, you're aware that Muslims and Croats were being arrested and

14 being held at the SUP and the TO back in April of 1992?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you were aware that Sulejman Tihic had been arrested and

17 that he was the SDA president.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that Simo had told you that he was speaking or interviewing

20 Sulejman Tihic concerning the distribution of weapons? He told you during

21 his interview was called out and Tihic got beaten up? You testified to

22 that.

23 A. Yes. I said that Simo had told me that he had gone to see Stiv,

24 someone had called him to see Stiv and once he came back Sulejman had been

25 beaten.

Page 17465

1 Q. So at least you're aware that he had been interviewing Sulejman

2 Tihic, that Simo Zaric had been interviewing Sulejman Tihic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You're also aware that Sulejman Tihic was the SDA president?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, I'm not sure if you're aware but Simo Zaric has given three

7 statements or three interviews to the Office of the Prosecutor in April

8 and June of 1998. And Simo during his statement on April 1st, 1998,

9 indicated that the SDS was involved in illegal arming and distribution of

10 arms to the Serb population. Were you aware of that? That the Serbs were

11 being illegally armed by the SDS?

12 A. I am not aware of that. I only know that the 4th Detachment had

13 been armed by the JNA.

14 Q. But you have no reason to doubt Mr. Zaric or call him a liar when

15 he says that the SDS was illegally arming Serbs in the Bosanski Samac

16 area?

17 A. I have no reason to doubt his sincerity. He's a man I trust.

18 Q. Now, since Simo Zaric had interviewed Sulejman Tihic concerning

19 illegal arming, do you know whether Simo Zaric ever interviewed or

20 interrogated Blagoje Simic, the President of the SDS, concerning their

21 illegal arming?

22 A. I am not familiar with that information.

23 Q. Well, in April or May, did Simo Zaric ever say to you, "Let's go,

24 Toso, bring me to the Crisis Staff building, we are going to interview --

25 I'm going to interrogate Blagoje Simic concerning the illegal arming by

Page 17466

1 the SDS"? Did he ever say that to you?

2 A. Simo Zaric only told me once to drive him to a meeting of the

3 Crisis Staff. The meeting were Mr. Djurdjevic was replaced but that was

4 the only time I drove Simo to the Crisis Staff.

5 Q. Okay. We'll get to that very shortly but did Simo ever say we are

6 going to meet Blagoje Simic because I have to interrogate him or interview

7 him concerning the SDS's illegal arming of the Serbs in the municipality

8 of Bosanski Samac? Did he ever say that to you? To drive him to a

9 certain location so he could do that?

10 A. Mr. Simo Zaric never told me that he would interview Mr. Blagoje

11 Simic. He never told me that.

12 Q. Okay. Did Simo Zaric tell you that he had or was intending to

13 interview any of the SDS leaders concerning the illegal arming of the

14 SDS -- by the SDS of the local Serbs?

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have no problem with the question but maybe

16 Mr. Weiner could be more specific about SDS leader, or who he's referring

17 him, local Serbs, SDS, it doesn't make much sense to me, whether he means

18 in what level, who these men were.

19 MR. WEINER: That's fine. I'll withdraw the question and rephrase

20 it, Your Honour.

21 Q. Did Simo Zaric ever tell you that he had interviewed any municipal

22 SDS members from the Bosanski Samac municipality concerning their illegal

23 arming of the Serb population?

24 A. Simo Zaric never told me that he had talked about anything to the

25 representatives of the SDS. I know that there was a bit of ill feeling

Page 17467

1 between them because Mr. Zaric was a member of a different party.

2 Q. But he never told you that he had interviewed any SDS members, any

3 municipal SDS members of Bosanski Samac, concerning illegal distribution

4 of weapons?

5 A. No, he never told me anything like that.

6 Q. Now, sir, you know who Blagoje Simic is?

7 A. Yes, I do. Blagoje Simic is a doctor from Bosanski Samac. He is

8 also my neighbour.

9 Q. And you knew that in 1992 he was the SDS president?

10 A. Yes. I was aware of that.

11 Q. And you were also aware that he was the Crisis Staff president in

12 1992, in the spring of 1992?

13 A. I was not aware of who the President of the Crisis Staff was.

14 Q. Okay. Well, sir, in the spring of 1992, April, May and June, did

15 you see Blagoje Simic? Did you ever happen to see him as you were driving

16 Simo Zaric around? Did you see him in the Bosanski Samac area?

17 A. I did see Blagoje Simic about town, like many other people. I

18 would meet him in the street sometimes.

19 Q. Did you ever meet him in the area of the police station, TO, or

20 municipal building that area where all three buildings are located? Or

21 did you ever see him in that area?

22 A. I never saw Mr. Blagoje Simic in that area.

23 Q. While you were driving Simo Zaric, did you ever see him around

24 town?

25 A. Whenever I went with Simo I never saw him in town. It was only my

Page 17468

1 free time when I went on my own.

2 Q. Okay. All right. Now, sir, you indicated that you drove Simo to

3 the communication centre so he could speak with officials from Odzak, and

4 you did that twice in the month of May, isn't that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct. I drove Mr. Zaric to the communication

6 centre.

7 Q. And you were present on the first occasion or were you present on

8 the first occasion for all of the discussions which occurred over the

9 radio? For the entire conversation?

10 A. I was there for the entire conversation.

11 Q. And you recall -- do you recall, sir, Simo Zaric telling those

12 persons or officials from Odzak that he would consult with members of the

13 Crisis Staff of Bosanski Samac about their proposals for exchanges? Do

14 you recall that, sir?

15 A. Yes. He did say that he would consult with those members, that he

16 would inform the Crisis Staff.

17 Q. And without saying names of the other person who was involved in

18 the conversation, you recall that there were -- there was discussion about

19 an all-for-all for a flock-for-flock exchange? Do you recall that?

20 Without saying the name of the other person who was involved.

21 A. I do recall that.

22 Q. Okay. Now, after that conversation, where did you bring Simo

23 next?

24 A. After that conversation, we went to the command of the 4th

25 Detachment.

Page 17469

1 Q. Now, you -- a few days later you again returned to the

2 communication centre, isn't that true?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you drove Simo to the communication centre on that -- about

5 two or three days later, isn't that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And on the way, did he tell you that he had advised the Crisis

8 Staff about the nature and contents of his initial conversation?

9 A. He did not tell me about that.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise. For the second time we have this

11 expression, advised the Crisis Staff. I would prefer if the correct word

12 would be informed the Crisis Staff, because this is what figures in

13 Mr. Zaric's interview. Maybe I don't need to go through this again but

14 this was the objection that I already made, because in our language, there

15 is a very significant difference and what we hear as translation was that

16 Mr. Zaric was -- shows Mr. Zaric had some sort of adviser in respect to

17 this topic, and the other issue is if he just informed the Crisis Staff.

18 So if we are quoting Mr. Zaric's interview, the proper word would be

19 "informed."

20 MR. WEINER: Your Honour I have no problem with that. As the

21 Court knows in English the term advise means either to counsel or to

22 inform. So I'm not trying to misrepresent what happened but I'd be happy

23 to use the word inform. It makes no difference.

24 Q. Now, sir, were you present for the entire radio conversation on

25 the second occasion too?

Page 17470

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, just before I --

3 A. If I may just be allowed to add, I was present while Simo was

4 having an argument with a man from Odzak, the second conversation.

5 Q. Okay. Now, before that, again Simo Zaric has given a statement to

6 the Office of the Prosecutor where he indicates that he informed the

7 Crisis Staff president, Stevan Todorovic, and other Crisis Staff members,

8 about an all-for-all exchange and that they were not opposed to this type

9 of exchange. Did Simo Zaric ever tell you of that? Whether it's either

10 on the ride to -- you said he didn't tell you about that on the ride to

11 the communication centre. Did he tell you about that at any other time?

12 A. I don't think I understood your question. I'm sorry.

13 Q. Simo Zaric states, after the first conversation, he did meet with

14 some Crisis Staff members, the President of the Crisis Staff, Stevan

15 Todorovic, and certain Crisis Staff -- and certain other Crisis Staff

16 members. He states that in his statement to the Office of the Prosecutor

17 on April 2nd, 1998, at page 80. And that's P141 ter. Did Simo Zaric ever

18 tell you about this meeting with the Crisis Staff and its members, where

19 he told them about an all-for-all exchange and they were not opposed to

20 such an exchange? Did Simo Zaric ever tell you about that, sir?

21 A. Mr. Simo Zaric never told me anything about his contacts with the

22 Crisis Staff.

23 Q. Now, you attend the second -- the second radio communication

24 session. Were you present for the entire conversation where all the

25 different parties spoke? Without saying the names of the parties. Were

Page 17471

1 you present for all of those conversations?

2 A. I was there in those rooms while Mr. Zaric was having an argument

3 with them. Later I came out into the hall and the door was ajar so I

4 could overhear the conversation of that other person.

5 Q. So you weren't present for the entire conversation?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Were you present, sir, when Simo Zaric told the Odzak officials

8 that the crisis -- that he had advised the Crisis Staff about the

9 all-for-all proposal, an all-for-all exchange, and that they did not

10 object to it? Were you present for that portion of the conversation?

11 A. No. I wasn't. I was present when Simo Zaric talked about the two

12 relatives of that gentleman from Odzak.

13 Q. Simo Zaric's statement to the Office of the Prosecutor that he

14 advised the Odzak officials about the Crisis Staff's view that they would

15 not oppose an all-for-all exchange of persons between Samac and Odzak, do

16 you have any reason to disbelieve that statement?

17 A. If he said that, I have every confidence in him. He is a man I

18 trust.

19 Q. Okay. Now, you talked about being a driver for Simo Zaric and for

20 others, for many years, about 30 years you served as a driver, sir?

21 A. I never said that.

22 Q. No, throughout your career, not just working for the municipality

23 but also prior to working for the army and your whole career was as a

24 driver, as opposed to your training as an auto mechanic?

25 A. I never worked as a driver for Simo Zaric until I came to the

Page 17472

1 army.

2 Q. No. I know that. Prior to joining the 4th Detachment in 1992,

3 you had been a driver for a number of years, not for Simo Zaric but a

4 driver?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. And during this long career as a driver, did you pass throughout

7 the municipality of Samac?

8 A. As a driver, I lived in Bosanski Samac. I resided in Bosanski

9 Samac.

10 Q. And you also drove throughout the municipality of Bosanski Samac?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... with the villages and

13 settlements and hamlets within Bosanski Samac having driven through for

14 many years?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you indicated you're from the village of Tisina?

17 A. I said that I was born in the village of Tisina, and I live in

18 Bosanski Samac. I have been living there since 1960, and I live at the

19 following address, the street of Car Dusan number 50.

20 Q. Thank you, and you're familiar that south of the town of Bosanski

21 Samac and south of the village of Tisina are the villages or settlements

22 of Donji Hasici and Gornji Hasici, isn't that correct?

23 A. To the south of the village of Tisina is Hrvatska Tisina, Donji

24 Hasic, Gornji Hasic and the village of Skaric [phoen].

25 Q. Thank you. And you're familiar with those two villages of Donji

Page 17473

1 Hasici and Gornji Hasici?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And those two villages are mainly or were mainly populated by

4 Croats in the early 1990s, prior to April 17th, 1992?

5 A. Only Croats lived in these two villages. In Donji Hasic, there

6 are only two or three ethnic Serb families.

7 Q. And you're also aware that in 1994, these two villages were

8 combined and a new single village was established called Srnice?

9 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour, it is beyond the time frame

10 of the indictment. We all know that for the two co-accused here, the time

11 frame is up to December, 1993, and for the other is the end -- the third

12 one is the end of 1992, so it's well beyond the time frame of the

13 indictment.

14 MR. WEINER: Your Honour?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner?

16 MR. WEINER: First it's a historical fact that these two villages

17 were combined into one. Number 2, in Exhibit P126, Blagoje Simic signs

18 the order from the assembly of Bosanski Samac or the assembly of Samac

19 combining these two villages and why this is relevant is earlier in this

20 case, we prevented certain types of cross-examination indicating or we

21 objected to certain types of cross-examination indicating that these two

22 villages were separate and distinct. Counsel or Defence indicated they

23 were one single village. We have a copy of the order showing that they

24 were in fact two separate settlements of villages, that they were combined

25 in 1994, and it's also -- it's informative for the Court to know that they

Page 17474

1 were in fact two separate villages and it relates to our objection because

2 we objected to certain testimony basically documents from one village

3 being reviewed by a witness who lived in another village on the basis that

4 they were in fact two separate villages. In fact Judge Lindholm displayed

5 his map and showed that they were two -- that he believed that they were

6 two separate villages. Counsel indicated he was going to offer proof at

7 some later time that they were in fact one village -- it was in fact one

8 village. When witnesses were questioned thereafter they all indicated it

9 was two separate villages and since this man is a driver, has been a

10 driver for many years, has driven throughout the municipality, I'd like to

11 introduce through him the fact that these were -- that these were in fact

12 two separate villages just as our witnesses said, just as the testimony

13 before the Court, and just as this document which is signed by this

14 defendant right here, indicates that they were two separate villages.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, if I may add, please, we have

16 discussion about the -- these two villages which according to the position

17 of the Defence were in fact one settlement, and that's a matter for the

18 other experts, not for this person here. Number 2, it is not true what my

19 learned friend just said, that Mr. Blagoje Simic signed this decision.

20 Actually, it was not a decision, it was a conclusion, and on behalf of the

21 assembly of -- municipal assembly of Samac in capacity of a chairman of

22 assembly, a speaker of assembly, he was obliged to sign that -- this

23 conclusion. And finally, Your Honour, this is not a matter here to

24 discuss with a person who can testify only on facts. So maybe the

25 question could be limited or rephrased whether this person, this witness,

Page 17475

1 is aware of the, I would say, conditions or, I don't know, kind of

2 territorial issues regarding these two villages. That might be question.

3 But to introduce to this witness a paper which is beyond the time frame of

4 the indictment, that's the basis for the objection of the Defence.

5 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, the document is already in evidence in

6 this Court in P126 ter. I want to introduce the English portion of that

7 section. That's all.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is of the view that the

10 Prosecution will be allowed to put the questions to this witness, as he

11 was familiar with the region. Notwithstanding the fact that the decision

12 was in 1994, it is so connected to the verification of the fact whether or

13 not the two villages were separate, and as this is a contentious matter

14 between the two parties, I think it's just fair that the Prosecution

15 should be allowed to put the exhibit to the witness so that he can

16 explain. Not explain the decision because he's not the one who made it

17 but discuss the matter as the Prosecution want to deal with.

18 MR. WEINER:

19 Q. Sir, my question again to you was: Were you aware that the two

20 villages of Gornji Hasici and Donji Hasici were combined and became the

21 village of "Srnic"?

22 A. Gornji Hasic and Donji Hasic was later called not "Srnic" but the

23 village of Srnice. That's the proper name.

24 Q. And they were combined together and called Srnice?

25 A. It was called the village of Srnice because ethnic Serbs moved

Page 17476

1 there from the municipality of Gradacac. They were expelled from a

2 village there called Srnice. So then they called themselves Srnice here.

3 Now, I don't know whether they themselves started calling themselves

4 Srnice or whether there was a decision that ruled on that.

5 Q. I'd like to show the witness some documents and also introduce

6 them into the Court. Could the usher assist us? Thank you.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can proceed.

8 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour. For the record this is page 30 of

9 P126 ter, and the ERN number at the top is 00456676.

10 Q. Sir, I'd like to invite your attention to decision number 62. Do

11 you see the 62 on the left? On the left column, sir? Sir, why don't I

12 read it and could you look along as I read it? I'll read it and could you

13 follow along, please?

14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could a copy be placed on the ELMO

15 for our clients?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I'm sure that could be done.

17 MR. WEINER:

18 Q. What I'm going to read to you, I'm going to read the English

19 translation to you. Can you follow along with me, can you follow along

20 with me, please? Do you see where it says, at the top, "Pursuant to

21 Article 50 of the Statute of Samac municipality, municipal assembly of

22 Samac"? Do you see that, sir? "In its session held on 11 March, 1994,

23 brought the decision on the joining of settlements and changing of the

24 name of a settled place." Municipal -- okay then there is a one, roman

25 numeral 1: "Municipal assembly of Samac, considering an initiative from

Page 17477

1 settlements Gornji Hasic and Donji Hasic and Prud, considers as necessary

2 to A, join settlements of Gornji Hasic and Donji Hasic into one settlement

3 that would be called Srnice."

4 Is that correct, my reading of that, sir?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then it says, "Change the name of Prud settlement into a new

7 name, Njegosevo." Did I pronounce that correctly?

8 A. Yes, you did.

9 Q. Roman numeral 2: "The act of joining of settlements and changing

10 the name of a settlement referred to in the last paragraph herein will be

11 carried out by government or people's assembly of RS, in accordance with

12 the law." Did I read that correctly, sir?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Roman numeral 3: "The decision is to be released in the Official

15 Gazette of RS." And there is a date to the left of March 15th, 1994, and

16 to the right, president of the municipal assembly, Dr. Blagoje Simic.

17 MR. WEINER: Your Honour I'd like to move the introduction of this

18 document, the English has been done by our translation unit. We are

19 awaiting an official translation from the Tribunal so I'd like to move

20 this at least as an ID document at this time. The English portion of it,

21 although P126 has already been -- P126 ter has already been admitted,

22 there is also another section that was later introduced which would be

23 P126A and A ter so this we would request be P126A for ID, I'm sorry, P126B

24 for ID.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Well, Your Honour, objection to the admission,

Page 17478

1 since it was never admitted as my learned friend stated, we didn't object

2 to the admission, if you see just on this page, on the ELMO, it's very

3 visible, all other -- all other decisions on that page are from 1993,

4 except that one. So in Pre-Trial proceedings and during the admission of

5 this particular Official Gazette, which was published in 1994, but

6 consisted of various decisions from 1993, which is within the scope of

7 the -- temporal scope of the indictment, we didn't object. Now on the

8 back door, my learned friend tried to introduce this decision, which is by

9 the way is nonsense, it is not a decision, it is conclusion, so that's a

10 first objection to the translation, then in paragraph 3, it is stated that

11 it will be published in Official Gazette of Republika Srpska, what is the

12 relation between municipal assembly and Official Gazette of Republika

13 Srpska, et cetera. But the basic objection Your Honour is that it is

14 beyond the temporal scope of the indictment and finally it was actually

15 admitted only partially this Official Gazette was admitted only partially

16 related to the decisions issued and adopted in 1993, which is the -- which

17 is the case here, and by chance, or I don't know by which procedure, this

18 conclusion was printed in this particular Official Gazette, and obviously,

19 it's beyond the year 1993. That is the basis of objection of the Defence.

20 Thank you.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I assist the Trial

22 Chamber with yet another fact? If it is truly the intention of the

23 Prosecution to prove what they said a short while ago, I think that in

24 relation to these facts, it is relevant to note the demographic analysis

25 of Mrs. Ewa Tabeau that has already been tendered. These two villages are

Page 17479

1 mentioned as two villages. And this will also be mentioned in our

2 expert's opinion on this subject. So I think this is relevant in relation

3 to what the Prosecution is trying to prove. Of course, if the Prosecution

4 is trying to prove something different, then I support what my colleague

5 just said. This is beyond the scope of the indictment, and then it is

6 really not relevant to what the Prosecutor said that he is trying to show

7 us, namely that there are two settlements. So how can this be proven?

8 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, there is no limitation indicated in the

9 records from the Registry or that I'm aware of when 126 ter was

10 introduced, so this document is technically before the Court. I'm just

11 introducing the English version of one of the sections. Since it is

12 already in evidence, we could refer to this any ways, because it is an

13 exhibit before the Court. However, offering the English version and it is

14 basically being offered to provide proper information to the Court, which

15 is consistent with the testimony from the witnesses, that these were two

16 separate villages, and that's all we are looking to do. Counsel indicated

17 that they were one village, without any proof. He indicated he was going

18 to bring some expert testimony, which they never did. And his own client,

19 the defendant Blagoje Simic, was the President of the municipal assembly

20 when this decision was passed, and I'm just offering it, the English

21 version, as an ID document, which does nothing more than shows the Court

22 what exactly the facts were.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber will allow the exhibit. It

25 will be marked for identification.

Page 17480

1 THE REGISTRAR: This decision will be treated as document P126B

2 ID. Thank you.

3 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

4 Q. Now, sir, you testified that sometime, I'm assuming in late 1991,

5 early 1992, you received a call-up notice from the Ministry of Defence.

6 Was that early 1992?

7 A. It was, I think, it was in January, 1992.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. And you were not ordered to report to the local

9 TO. Rather, you were ordered to report to the SIT building, which was

10 the -- you were ordered to report to the 4th Detachment, isn't that

11 correct?

12 A. I was called up by the Secretariat of National Defence and I

13 responded to this call-up, and therefore came to the building of the

14 Secretariat for National Defence, that is where I was informed that I was

15 assigned to the 4th Detachment and its seat, its headquarters, was in the

16 SIT building.

17 Q. And you weren't ordered to report to the local TO, rather you were

18 told to report to the 4th Detachment, isn't that correct?

19 A. I was called up to report at the Secretariat for National Defence

20 and I was told there that I was assigned to the 4th Detachment, and that I

21 should report at the SIT building.

22 Q. Correct. They did not tell to you report to the local TO,

23 Territorial Defence, that's all I'm trying to -- they did not tell to you

24 report to the local Territorial Defence?

25 A. They didn't.

Page 17481

1 Q. Now, as you know, the 4th Detachment was a unit of the JNA?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you received -- you had certain positions within that JNA

4 unit. You were a platoon commander and then you were eventually the

5 command driver?

6 A. I was never a platoon commander. I was commander of a squad for

7 one day only.

8 Q. You were a squad commander and then you were or eventually you

9 were named as the driver, okay.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, in May, you testified that the JNA had to leave

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the army of the Republika Srpska was established?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you testified that the 4th Detachment becomes -- the 4th

15 Detachment of the JNA's 17th Tactical Group becomes a unit of the Army of

16 Republika Srpska?

17 A. After the Yugoslav People's Army left, the Army of Republika

18 Srpska was established, and the 4th Detachment became a military formation

19 of the Army of Republika Srpska, or rather at that time the name of the

20 4th Detachment was changed, or rather instead of the 17th Tactical Group,

21 there was the 2nd Posavina Infantry Brigade and the 5th Battalion of that

22 brigade was the former 4th Detachment.

23 Q. So basically one day you were a member of the JNA 4th Detachment

24 of the 17th Tactical Group and then you're suddenly a member of the 5th

25 Battalion of the 2nd Posavina Brigade of the Republika Srpska army?

Page 17482

1 A. I was a driver in the command of the 5th Battalion.

2 Q. But you went from the JNA, being a member of the JNA, to being a

3 member of the Army of the Republika Srpska, you and the other members of

4 the 4th Detachment went from being the 4th Detachment of the JNA to being

5 the 5th Battalion of the Army of Republika Srpska?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to show you a statement from the Tadic

8 judgement. You're aware that several judgements have been issued by this

9 Court, not Miroslav Tadic, but you're aware that this Court --

10 A. I know -- I saw it on television, that this Court passed a few

11 judgements but I don't know about Miroslav Tadic.

12 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to show you a portion of the --

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, maybe just to can clear this up,

14 because the witness just said I don't know about Miroslav Tadic, maybe we

15 should say Dusan Tadic and get it clear that we are talking about somebody

16 completely different.

17 MR. WEINER: Yes.

18 Q. Sir, what I'm going to show you is the Dusan Tadic, known as Dule

19 Tadic, judgement, and I just want to show you two paragraphs in that

20 concerning the transfer of the JNA units to the VRS or the Army of

21 Republika Srpska units, and I'd like to go over them with you.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you hold on, Mr. Weiner?

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

Page 17483

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: I don't know if there would be any ruling about

2 this but I would like to ask my friend, colleague, my learned colleague

3 what is the relevance of showing to this witness, factual witness, a

4 driver in the small detachment, and ask him to make any comment about the

5 judgement of this Tribunal. I really don't see it's appropriate witness

6 for this kind of testimony.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: First of all, before we -- the Trial Chamber makes

8 any ruling we would like to find out what you intend to do with the

9 passages of the judgement.

10 MR. WEINER: I have passages of the judgement and I want to show

11 it to him and they can --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it the Appeals Chamber?

13 MR. WEINER: No, it's the Trial Chamber. And they concern the

14 transfer of the units from the JNA to the VRS, from the JNA units to the

15 Army of Republika Srpska unit and ask him isn't that the exact same thing

16 that happened in Bosanski Samac? As he just testified he was a JNA member

17 one day, in the 4th Detachment, and the next day, he's a 5th Battalion

18 member in the VRS: I have copies, if the Court would like to see the two

19 paragraphs.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. The point is those are the findings of

21 the Trial Chamber.

22 MR. WEINER: Yes, and those weren't issues that were appealed.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: That doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. This

24 witness has testified about what happened or what -- how the various army

25 units were moved around or transferred or renamed and he should be

Page 17484

1 cross-examined on the facts according to his evidence. I don't think it's

2 proper to put a finding -- a judgement to this particular witness. That

3 is a matter for submission.

4 MR. WEINER: That's fine. I'll just ask him further questions

5 about the transfer, that's all.

6 Q. Now, sir, when you went from the 4th Detachment of the JNA to

7 becoming a member of the 5th Battalion of the Army of Republika Srpska, in

8 transferring from one army to another, you didn't have to return your

9 rifle? You were allowed to keep your rifle, isn't that correct? The

10 rifle that was issued to you by the JNA.

11 A. I did not have to return my rifle. I carried it around with me

12 until the 1st of October, 1993, when I left the 5th Battalion.

13 Q. You indicated that the JNA gave you what was known as a RAP. It

14 was like gun-cleaning equipment and ammunition. You didn't have to return

15 that when you left the JNA and became a member of the VRS, Army of the

16 Republika Srpska?

17 A. I did not have to return it because that was part of the equipment

18 used with the automatic rifle.

19 Q. Your uniform that you received when you became a member of the 4th

20 Detachment, that JNA uniform, did you have to return that when you left

21 the JNA and were transferred to the VRS or the Army of Republika Srpska?

22 A. I got my first uniform from the JNA. It was SMB or rather

23 olive-drab. That's the standard Yugoslav equipment. Later on, this was

24 replaced with a camouflage uniform and that uniform I could not return.

25 Q. When did you receive the camouflage uniform?

Page 17485

1 A. The camouflage uniform, I received it -- I don't remember the date

2 but I think it was in late July, 1992.

3 Q. But up to the point where you received the camouflage uniform,

4 were you still wearing the JNA uniform that you had been issued when you

5 joined the 4th Detachment?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And when you went from being a member of the JNA to being a member

8 of the Army of Republika Srpska, were you given any choice as to whether

9 or not to accept this transfer, from one army to another?

10 A. Soldiers were not given any choice as to which unit they would

11 belong to.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, sir, let's move on. In July, you were --

13 you were sent to Odzak. Now, --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In fact, you followed Simo Zaric to Odzak. Simo Zaric was

16 assigned to the civilian-military council by the Crisis Staff of Bosanski

17 Samac. Were you aware of that?

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: I object. I believe that we already have the

19 testimony of this witness that he was sent there by the Ministry of

20 Defence in Samac.

21 MR. WEINER: No, Simo Zaric, not this witness, Simo Zaric is the

22 question.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Okay. If you limit it whether he has any

24 knowledge of that.

25 MR. WEINER:

Page 17486

1 Q. My question was Simo Zaric was assigned to the civilian-military

2 council by the Crisis Staff of Bosanski Samac. Were you aware of that,

3 sir?

4 A. I don't know who appointed the members of the military council but

5 I do know that Simo told me one day, "Tomorrow we are going to Odzak."

6 Several days later I received a decision in writing from the military

7 ministry in Samac that my assignment would be in Odzak. That was my

8 military, wartime assignment.

9 Q. So you and Simo -- you and the defendant --

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise, I don't want to interrupt but here we

11 have using of some words that have quite a different meaning. Wartime

12 assignment is a completely different. He said it was my work obligation.

13 These are the exact words that the witness used.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, perhaps Mr. Weiner can ask him to describe what

15 it was.

16 MR. WEINER:

17 Q. Sir, you were assigned -- you, not Simo Zaric, you were assigned

18 to Odzak by whom?

19 A. I don't know who assigned me but Simo Zaric told me that we would

20 go to Odzak. And then several days later I got a decision in writing from

21 the military ministry, ministry of the army of the Serbian Municipality of

22 Samac, that my work obligation would be with the civilian-military council

23 in Odzak.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, were you aware that Simo Zaric in Odzak was

25 serving as the deputy to the President of the war council for security

Page 17487

1 matters? Were you aware of that?

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Again, according to what we know and what we hear

3 as the translation, there is again one word that we have a problem with

4 this. Not deputy but assistant. And it makes a significant difference.

5 I believe that we already explained the difference between deputy and

6 assistant within the 4th Detachment and it does make a difference because

7 the deputy is the person who in the absence of the president replaces him,

8 and takes all his duty, while assistant has a very different position.

9 He's the one who assists for certain topics. So what we have is that

10 Mr. Zaric was assistant of the President, not the deputy of the president.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner?

12 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'm reading from the joint statement of

13 admissions by the parties, matters which are not in dispute and that's

14 on page 13 where it says deputy to the president, but I'll agree with

15 counsel, I'll use the word assistant to the President. It makes no

16 difference to me.

17 Q. Sir, were you aware that Simo Zaric served as the assistant to the

18 President of the war council for security matters?

19 A. I am aware that Simo Zaric was the assistant of the President of

20 the military council, but not of the War Presidency. He was in charge of

21 morale, religious and legal matters.

22 Q. Yes, I'm not indicating that he was a member of the War

23 Presidency. He was the assistant to the President and was he not involved

24 in intelligence and security matters while he was in Odzak?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17488

1 Q. And you indicated, or you testified earlier today that you

2 really -- you testified earlier today that you really didn't go into his

3 work or you really didn't know about his work but you mostly saw him write

4 things down. You testified about that on pages 27 and 28 today. Isn't

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you weren't examining his writings?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So you weren't reading or reviewing what he was writing down,

10 isn't that correct?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So since you never examined what he was writing down, you can't

13 state or you don't know if what he was writing down concerned the

14 assignment of labourers, because you had never read those documents that

15 he was drafting.

16 A. Yes. However, he told me that he had nothing to do with the

17 exchange.

18 Q. My question concerned labour assignments but since you were not

19 reading any of those documents that he was drafting, you don't know or you

20 can't state if his documents concerned projects needing labour or the

21 number of labourers needed to complete projects. You can't state that

22 because you never read those documents, isn't that correct?

23 A. I don't think I understood the question.

24 Q. Since you never reviewed any of the documents that Mr. Zaric

25 wrote, you don't know if they concerned the labourers that were coming

Page 17489

1 from Samac? You never read them so you can't say what they concerned.

2 A. I know that he never requested workers to be placed under his work

3 obligation. I know because all the commissioners, all the companies had

4 their own commissioners and these commissioners requested workers for the

5 next day to be brought over from Samac. I know that Simo Zaric never made

6 any such requests.

7 Q. But sir, since you never reviewed or read any documents that he

8 had written, you don't know whether or not they concerned labour, because

9 you never read them. You can't say, you never read those documents, isn't

10 that correct?

11 A. That's fine. I didn't read them, but I knew from our mutual

12 communication, from our talks.

13 Q. But since you never read those documents, you can't be sure that

14 they didn't concern labour assignments, you never read them.

15 A. I believe he would have told me if he had requested workers, and

16 probably he would have known where to send them.

17 Q. My question is not your discussions with him. Since you never --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, we spent so much. The witness has given

19 you the answers he can give. Please move on.

20 MR. WEINER:

21 Q. Now, sir, would you agree with me that after April 17th, life in

22 Samac had changed drastically?

23 A. I agree.

24 Q. There had been an elected government in 1990 that was no longer in

25 office.

Page 17490

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. A Serb Crisis Staff had taken over the government in Bosanski

3 Samac.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The SDA president, Sulejman Tihic, and its vice-president, Izet

6 Izetbegovic, were in jail?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you knew that Blagoje Simic was the President of the SDS?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you, sir, were not a member of the SDS party?

11 A. No, no, I wasn't.

12 Q. And you weren't a member because you didn't agree with their

13 policies or politics?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. And sir, you're aware that Biljana Plavsic, the former SDS and

16 Bosnian Serb leader has pled guilty in this Court to orchestrating a

17 campaign of persecution against the non-Serb population of Bosnia?

18 A. I heard about that on TV.

19 Q. And as part of her plea, she has admitted to a SDS policy of the

20 permanent removal of ethnic populations, the non-Serb ethnic populations,

21 from Serbian territory. You as a Yugoslav, you weren't in favour of that?

22 A. I don't think I understood the question, I'm sorry.

23 Q. Biljana Plavsic admitted to a SDS policy of the permanent removal

24 of the non-Serb population from territory controlled by the Serbs. You,

25 as a Yugoslav, was not in favour of those deportations and expulsions.

Page 17491

1 A. Yes. I was certainly not in favour of that.

2 Q. Now, she also admits, in paragraph 19, that the SDS and Serb

3 leadership implemented a persecution campaign by various means. One of

4 those means was the unlawful detention and killing of non-Serbs. As a

5 Yugoslav, you weren't in favour of that policy of unlawful killing and

6 detention of non-Serbs.

7 A. No, I wasn't.

8 Q. Now, looking at this situation in Samac, you didn't like what

9 happened in Crkvina, where 16 non-Serb men were killed? You didn't like

10 that. You were appalled by that, weren't you?

11 A. I didn't like it. Most of the citizens of Bosanski Samac didn't

12 like it.

13 Q. And you didn't like the killing of Dikan, which you learned about,

14 which occurred on or about April 26, 1992, at the Territorial Defence

15 building? You didn't like that.

16 A. No. I didn't like it.

17 Q. And you were also aware, as you've testified, that many non-Serbs

18 in Samac were being arrested and isolated.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you know that many of these arrests were based on nothing

21 other than their ethnicity, isn't that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you being a Yugoslav did not like that either.

24 A. No, no. I didn't like it.

25 Q. And Biljana Plavsic, also in that paragraph 19 of the factual

Page 17492

1 basis supporting her plea, talks about the use of cruel and inhumane

2 treatment, and inhumane conditions in detention facilities. That's what

3 she admits that she and the SDS and the Bosnian Serb leaders used, cruel

4 and inhumane treatment, and inhumane conditions in detention facilities.

5 You, sir, as a Yugoslav, you didn't like that.

6 A. I am not aware of that. I don't like politics. I think it's

7 below me to discuss such issues.

8 Q. Well, we have to discuss it for the Court, so let me just ask you

9 a few questions and we'll move on. But you as a Yugoslav, you didn't like

10 that SDS and Serb policy of cruel and inhumane treatment and inhumane

11 conditions in the detention facilities?

12 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour, this witness just ten

13 seconds before said that he was not aware of that, and my learned friend

14 is trying to put same question to him. So maybe it could be rephrased or

15 maybe he can leave this topic and go to another topic because we have that

16 in transcript, it's page 64, line 5 and 6.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MR. WEINER: Your Honour my question is whether or not he agrees

19 with the policy.

20 MR. PANTELIC: And he was not aware.

21 MR. WEINER: He can say does he agree with it.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: It's the same question. You didn't like that and

23 then you didn't like the SDS and so forth --

24 MR. WEINER: I'll ask him --

25 Q. The SDS and Bosnian Serb policy of the use of cruel and inhumane

Page 17493

1 treatment and inhumane conditions in detention facilities, you do not

2 agree with that policy?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In fact, sir, you've testified you visited several friends at the

5 various prison camps, the TO, the SUP, the primary school, the high

6 school, you had many friends at those camps.

7 A. No. I only visited my friends at the TO, in the yard of the TO,

8 and at the SUP building. I never went to the elementary or secondary

9 school buildings.

10 Q. Okay. You knew people were being held at the elementary and

11 secondary school buildings?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you knew that these were non-Serbs, Muslims and Croats?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you had good friends at the SUP being held at the police

16 station, and the Territorial Defence building?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you said one of them was "Esrem" Zaimbegovic?

19 A. No, his name was Esref, Esref Zaimbegovic, not "Esrem." Yes.

20 He's the one I went to see most often.

21 Q. And he was a good friend of yours?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. He wasn't a criminal of any kind?

24 A. He was not a criminal of any kind. He wasn't into politics. He

25 was a businessman, a good one.

Page 17494

1 Q. And he was being held because of his ethnicity, isn't that

2 correct?

3 A. Most probably.

4 Q. And, sir, while you were went to see these -- while you went to

5 see these friends, and as you also spoke to others who visited friends

6 and relatives, you learned that the conditions at these places were not

7 very good, at the TO and the SUP?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you were aware that these were inhumane conditions, that

10 people were being beaten, mistreated?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And you were aware that there was poor hygiene?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you were aware that there was little food?

15 A. I didn't know about the kind of food they had.

16 Q. But you knew that families were sending food in or trying to get

17 food in?

18 A. I did know about that, and many times I brought food to a number

19 of people. But Mr. Zaric knew this too.

20 Q. And which, when you said Mr. Zaric was aware of this too, do you

21 mean the poor treatment of the prisoners or do you mean that you were

22 bringing food, or both?

23 A. I meant whether I was bringing food to these prisoners myself.

24 Q. Okay. And that was actually very kind of you to bring the food to

25 them. And sir, these poor conditions that you saw in Bosanski Samac,

Page 17495

1 that's consistent with Biljana Plavsic's statement of inhumane conditions

2 in detention facilities.

3 A. I don't know about that.

4 Q. Well, you agree that the conditions were poor in Samac?

5 A. I agree with that.

6 Q. Now, you also indicated, just as we are finishing this, that

7 certain people were isolated in Samac?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the persons that were isolated were the non-Serbs, the Croats

10 and Muslims?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And by being isolated, it means that they were being detained, not

13 for committing crimes but because of their ethnicity, isn't that correct?

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: I object to this question. I mean, this is a bit

15 of legal matter. Isolated, it's one question. And being detained, it's

16 maybe another question. Because in our language, there are -- there is no

17 difference between being detained or in isolation, and it is usually

18 related to some procedures against some person so asking this witness

19 whether it was because of their ethnicity or something like that, it's a

20 call for speculation.

21 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I don't think so. We've had a lot of

22 testimony in this case about isolation from both Prosecution witnesses and

23 Defence witnesses.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: I think in fairness to the witness, it's better to

25 brake down your question and also ask him whether he knows of any

Page 17496

1 reasons.

2 MR. WEINER:

3 Q. Sir, you indicated that certain people, certain non-Serbs, I'm

4 sorry, that the non-Serbs of Bosanski Samac were being isolated.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where were they being isolated?

7 A. Some were isolated in the village of Zasavica.

8 Q. And were these men, women, children, elderly? What were they?

9 A. There were women there, and children, and elderly people, and

10 there were entire households that were put up in individual houses in

11 Zasavica and they led a normal life.

12 Q. And these people that were isolated in Zasavica, it was -- you

13 said women, children and elderly. Where were the husbands?

14 A. The older husbands were there in isolation in Zasavica and others,

15 some of them, were in the TO building.

16 Q. Now, these women, these children, these elderly people, were they

17 isolated because they had committed crimes?

18 A. No.

19 Q. They were isolated in Zasavica because of their ethnicity?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when we talk about isolation of people in Zasavica and

22 elsewhere, we are not talking about a handful of people, we are talking

23 about over 100 people?

24 A. I did not go to Zasavica. I don't know how many of them there

25 were there but I just heard that there were people in Zasavica who were in

Page 17497

1 isolation, and there was a considerable number in Samac as well.

2 Q. And when you say there was a considerable number in Samac, between

3 Samac and Zasavica, we are talking about a large number of people?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And the reason those people in Samac were isolated was because of

6 their ethnicity?

7 A. Well, those who were isolated probably, yes, but there were some

8 people who were not in isolation at all. There were people who lived in

9 their houses, their own houses, and they went out for work obligation.

10 Q. Okay. Now, these people in Samac that were isolated, those were

11 non-Serbs, those were Muslims and Croats?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, sir, you testified that -- about the isolations in Zasavica.

14 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown P141 ter, please? Page

15 72.

16 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to read that to you and have you follow along

17 with me. Would you please do that? On the bottom of page 72, in the

18 B/C/S, I'll read the top part, Zaric: "It is a Croatian village, and a

19 number, as far as I know, inhabitants remained after the outbreak of the

20 conflict. Before the conflict, some left, presumably to go to Croatia and

21 to other villages in the area. The Samac Crisis Staff had decided at some

22 point -- sorry, at some point, I know that, I don't know when the decision

23 was made, on the isolation of Croats, and they were then, a number of

24 them, were taken from Samac and put in these -- placed in these abandoned

25 houses in Zasavica, or also were made to -- for them, accommodation to be

Page 17498

1 provided by those people already living there."

2 A. That's not what it says here.

3 Q. All right. Why don't you read --

4 A. It's not what it says here on this page, on this sheet of paper.

5 There is a different text here.

6 Q. Why don't you read it?

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe, maybe I understand and again we have the

8 same problem because you are reading it in English, we have a simultaneous

9 translation and it is not always the same one as it is written in the

10 statement. So maybe to assist the interpreters this should be put on the

11 ELMO so --

12 MR. WEINER: Could you put it on the -- could you put it and just

13 if you could turn slightly? And you can follow along. Or you can watch

14 it on the monitor.

15 A. I can see it better this way. I can see it better this way. Oh,

16 oh, I see, right, I see it now.

17 MR. WEINER: Can the translators see it?

18 THE INTERPRETER: No.

19 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, why don't we take our break now and I'll

20 make a copy for the translators so we can get through this?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

22 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

Page 17499

1 MR. WEINER: Your Honour apparently the problem was according to

2 translation. There is a difference between the page numbers between the

3 exhibit and what I have.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well then, show the witness the correct page.

5 MR. WEINER: They are saying it's 76 but...

6 Q. Appears to be 72 and 73 in my copy as well as the copy that the

7 witness has --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: What matters is to read the corresponding paragraph,

9 isn't it? Not necessarily the pages.

10 MR. WEINER: That's what I'm doing. I'm reading it in -- I'll

11 read it again.

12 Q. Okay. Page 72, middle of the page, Zaric answer: "It is a

13 Croatian village and a number, as far as I know, inhabitants remained

14 after the outbreak of the conflict. Before the conflict some left,

15 presumably to go to Croatia or to other villages in the area. The Samac

16 Crisis Staff had decided at some point, I know that, I don't know when the

17 decision was made, on the isolation of Croats and they were then... a

18 number of them were taken from Samac and put in these, placed in these

19 abandoned houses in Zasavica or also were made to... for them,

20 accommodation to be provided by those people already living there. I

21 don't think it was a camp in a typical sense because they were able to

22 walk about, but certainly, I know about the decision and this was one very

23 unfortunate, very bad decision made by the Crisis Staff."

24 Question: "So this was the Crisis Staff in Samac at some point

25 decided that the Croats living in Samac municipality should be removed

Page 17500

1 from their homes and sent to Zasavica?"

2 Answer, Zaric: "This was not exclusively for Croats because there

3 were also some Muslim families there, I believe. The decision was made

4 following the imprisonment of those people in the Odzak area. I think it

5 wasn't just for the Croats."

6 Were you able to follow along, sir?

7 A. It's not the same like your text.

8 Q. Would you read what's different?

9 A. "I think that it wasn't only Croats who were there. They also

10 took some Muslim families there. So this decision on isolation, this

11 isolation, later pertained to part of the Muslims too. There were some

12 Muslim families there, as far as I know, and this decision on isolation

13 was adopted after Serbs were taken prisoner in the area of Novi Grad, as

14 far as I know people had to leave their homes and go to Zasavica."

15 Q. Okay. Now, when they say it was done in your words or in your

16 reading, it was done after the Serbs were taken prisoner in Novi Grad,

17 Novi Grad is in Odzak, in the Odzak municipality, sir?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, these facts which Simo Zaric gave to the Office of the

20 Prosecutor, are you aware of these?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So you're aware of the Crisis Staff's decision to isolate the

23 non-Serb population?

24 A. I did not know whose decision that was. I just know that the

25 non-Serb population was taken into isolation.

Page 17501

1 Q. Do you know -- are you aware of any reason why Simo Zaric would

2 say it was the Crisis Staff's decision to isolate the non-Serb population

3 if it wasn't true?

4 A. I do not doubt the truthfulness of what Simo Zaric says at all,

5 but I had no knowledge of that being the decision of the Crisis Staff.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, how long have you known Simo Zaric, sir?

7 A. I've known Simo Zaric well for over 30 years.

8 Q. And that's why he was comfortable in having you as his driver?

9 You know each other for a long time, you trust each other?

10 A. I don't know why he chose me in particular but he trusted me. We

11 knew each other and we socialised before the conflict broke out.

12 Q. Okay. Now, trusting each other, because you trusted each other,

13 you were able to talk to each other while you were in that vehicle?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, you told him, as you've testified, that you were delivering

16 food to the prisoners, food, medical supplies, clothing?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And he also told you about certain things, he told you about the

19 beatings, the mistreatment and the killings of prisoners?

20 A. He told me about the mistreatment of prisoners and he told me

21 about a killing that had happened, and I had never heard about that from

22 anyone. It's only from Simo Zaric I heard about that from. And that was

23 Dikan's murder.

24 Q. Okay. And you both discussed the poor conditions in these prison

25 camps or detention centres? He told you about the mistreatment and you

Page 17502

1 told him about what you had seen?

2 A. We talked about everything, but what I knew could not have been

3 known by each and every soldier and each and every citizen.

4 Q. But when you say you talked about everything, both of you talked

5 about the poor conditions at those detention centres? You conversed at

6 times about that? Your knowledge, his knowledge, and you talked about

7 it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you also talked about what was happening, what the police were

10 doing? Did Simo tell you about what Todorovic was doing and what the

11 police were doing and some their actions, or the improper actions if you

12 want to call them, mistreatment of prisoners?

13 A. It's not only Simo who told me about that. He did not tell me

14 about what Todorovic did. This could have been heard from other

15 policemen, that there were mistreatments, and one evening, Simo picked up

16 these prisoners and drove them to Brcko so that they would not be

17 mistreated and abused.

18 Q. Okay. But so you knew about Todorovic and Simo knew about

19 Todorovic and it was kind of common knowledge as to what was happening?

20 A. It was common knowledge, it was no secret, ordinary citizens of

21 Bosanski Samac knew about that.

22 Q. Just like Crkvina, people knew about Crkvina too, the terrible

23 killing of those 16 people?

24 A. Mr. Zaric and I went to Pelagicevo the next day. When we returned

25 to Samac, many inhabitants had already known about what had happened in

Page 17503

1 Crkvina that night.

2 Q. Okay. So let's get this straight. You knew about -- both you and

3 Simo knew about the isolation of the non-Serbs?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The mistreatment of the non-Serbs?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The unlawful arrest of non-Serbs?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The brutal actions of the volunteers from Serbia?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The mistreatment of prisoners by the police? The mistreatment of

12 the non-Serb prisoners by the police.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the killing of certain non-Serbs?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So at some point, you and Simo are aware of this system of

17 persecution of the non-Serbs of Bosanski Samac.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: This is calling for legal conclusion from this

19 witness. He knew about all these acts but whether these were -- it was a

20 system of persecution, this is not that simple to ask a witness.

21 MR. WEINER: I'll withdraw the question.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

23 MR. WEINER:

24 Q. But it's obvious in the spring of --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, because all these things have been

Page 17504

1 discussed before, even with this witness, several times, I don't see why

2 you should continue.

3 MR. WEINER: I'm just getting into the area of knowledge, as to

4 who knew about what, that's all, and I'm just finishing, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

6 MR. WEINER:

7 Q. But all of these things were happening in the spring of 1992, to

8 the non-Serb civilians in Bosanski Samac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, finally, sir, you talked about being a driver for Simo Zaric

11 in several places and in several units, and at various times. Now, you

12 said that Simo Zaric had told you at sometime you were both going to Odzak

13 and shortly there after, the Ministry of Defence assigns you to Odzak

14 where you then serve as Simo Zaric's driver, isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Simo Zaric had you transferred or initiated the transfer.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: I object. It's calling for speculation. The

18 witness clearly answered that he received a decision of the ministry.

19 Whether Simo Zaric were they both transfer, who issued orders or whatever,

20 this is not up to the witness.

21 MR. WEINER: I think we should look at the witness's knowledge.

22 Does he know?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that's the point.

24 MR. WEINER:

25 Q. Do you know, sir, did Simo Zaric have you transferred?

Page 17505

1 A. I don't know. I just know that I got a decision from the Ministry

2 of National Defence that I should go to Odzak as a driver at that military

3 council there.

4 Q. At sometime, Simo Zaric leaves Odzak and he goes to the 2nd

5 Posavina command in Pelagicevo, and you thereafter go with him?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Again to be his driver?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And prior to being transferred, did he tell you that you were

10 going to be going with him to the 2nd Posavina command?

11 A. He did not tell me. He just said to me one day, Toso, tomorrow we

12 are going to Pelagicevo and we are going to stay there.

13 Q. Okay. And after he says that, the Ministry of Defence notifies

14 you that you've been transferred to Pelagicevo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then after being in Pelagicevo, you didn't like it there, or

17 you didn't like going to the front lines with Simo there, you thought it

18 was dangerous?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You wanted to return to Odzak?

21 A. And I did return.

22 Q. But Simo told you you could go back to Odzak?

23 A. Yes. Simo talked to people at the Secretariat for National

24 Defence and then I got a decision once again that I was going back to

25 Odzak and that this was my work obligation.

Page 17506

1 Q. So you got transferred after Simo spoke to the people at the

2 Ministry of Defence?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. And finally, you indicated you didn't like being on

5 the front line. Where was the front line?

6 A. This front line was in the area of Orasje.

7 Q. And who was on the other side? Who were you facing? What

8 troops? Soldiers from what troops? I'm sorry, soldiers from where? What

9 armies? HVO? HV?

10 A. I don't know about that. I just know that there are Croat

11 villages there and probably there are soldiers too but we did have

12 information that there were soldiers there from the Republic of Croatia

13 too.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, sir.

15 MR. WEINER: No further questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Any questions from other counsel before

17 re-examination?

18 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

19 Further cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tutnjevic, tell me, now when you told the

21 Prosecutor about your work obligation, Odzak, and then about the going to

22 Pelagicevo and so on, you were a soldier of the Army of Republika Srpska

23 then, weren't you?

24 A. I was a soldier and then after that, I got decisions as a work

25 obligation, and the first decision about work obligation, I got when I set

Page 17507

1 out to Odzak for the first time.

2 Q. And when you went with Simo to the command in Pelagicevo, did you

3 go as work obligation to the command or did you go as a soldier to the

4 command in Pelagicevo?

5 A. This was my work obligation.

6 Q. So instead of being there as a soldier, right, you always had work

7 obligation?

8 A. No, not always. Only until I went to Odzak the first time, but I

9 still kept the weapon that I had.

10 Q. And the uniform?

11 A. Yes and the uniform.

12 Q. Tell me, since you socialised with Simo, you spent a good deal of

13 time together during the day as you drove him here and there, do you have

14 any personal knowledge about Simo Zaric filing criminal charges against

15 the perpetrators of these crimes that you described to the Prosecutor?

16 A. I don't know about that. He didn't tell me about that.

17 Q. Tell me, Mr. Tutnjevic, do you remember sometime in May, 1992,

18 when an attack was carried out against a bus of soldiers from the 4th

19 Detachment somewhere around Novo Selo, do you remember that in May 1992?

20 A. I remember that event because a colleague of mine had been wounded

21 then. The man who was driving the bus. And the attack was carried out by

22 the soldiers that we called Ustashas.

23 Q. This settlement of Novo Selo, it's in the territory of the

24 municipality of Bosanski Samac; right?

25 A. This is the settlement in the territory of Bosanski Samac between

Page 17508

1 Brdnik [phoen], Tisina and Grebnice, those villages.

2 Q. When was that? Just tell me that.

3 A. It was the beginning -- I think it was the beginning of May. Now

4 was it the end of April or the beginning of May, I don't remember the date

5 but I just know that it was when these events just started.

6 Q. Did the army do something about this?

7 MR. WEINER: I'd object, Your Honour. I've let him ask two or

8 three questions -- I let my learned brother ask a few questions, however,

9 this is outside, I've given him some leniency but this is outside the

10 scope of cross-examination. I never questioned on any of these issues and

11 his re-cross or re-direct or whatever it is is outside the scope of my

12 cross.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

14 MR. PANTELIC: No, Your Honour, let me explain you, all these

15 events are within the scope of the examination [sic] of Prosecution

16 because he asked this witness about Zasavica, and this is what I'm trying

17 to clarify with this witness.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: This event has nothing to do with Zasavica. It

19 happened elsewhere and it wasn't raised in cross-examination. Can you

20 proceed with other questions, Mr. Pantelic?

21 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, let me explain you. It was raised,

22 Zasavica was raised and we think, the Defence is of the opinion, I don't

23 want to suggest to this witness what is our position so allow me please to

24 ask only one question with regard to this event in Zasavica and you will

25 see what is the relevance. I don't want to suggest anything to this

Page 17509

1 witness.

2 MR. WEINER: If it's one more question I won't object if he can

3 somehow tie this up to some relevance.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, that's my position.

5 MR. WEINER: But if it's not relevant I will be objecting again.

6 MR. PANTELIC:

7 Q. Just answer this, when this happened?

8 A. I didn't understand what you were saying, could you start again?

9 Q. When this happened in Novo Selo, this attack against the Serb

10 soldiers and the Serb bus, did the army take some measures in terms of

11 bringing into custody the suspects who were suspected of having attacked

12 this Serb bus? Just tell me that.

13 A. This bus took a shift of soldiers to the line and the army did not

14 bring them into custody because the army never took anybody into custody

15 or into isolation or whatever to the SUP, never.

16 Q. All right. But did the army take any measures after that? That's

17 what I'm asking you.

18 A. I don't know about that.

19 Q. Tell me, you spoke to the Prosecutor about a number of people who

20 were detained at the SUP, the TO, and so on. Do you know for sure what

21 the grounds were for the arrest of these persons? Do you personally know?

22 You mentioned Tihic, Izetbegovic, et cetera, but do you personally know

23 for sure what the grounds were for their detention?

24 A. No, I don't.

25 Q. Tell me, on the basis of your own knowledge, because you were not

Page 17510

1 at the school, at the secondary school or the elementary school but you

2 were at the SUP and the TO that's what you said to the Prosecutor?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who was in charge of these two detention centres, who guarded

5 them?

6 A. They were guarded by the police.

7 Q. And on the basis of your knowledge, who was in charge of these two

8 facilities, these two detention facilities?

9 A. I know that the chief of police was Mr. Stevan Todorovic, and then

10 the commander of the police for a while was Milan Jekic from Batkusa, and

11 for a while it was Mr. Savo Cancarevic and now, who was in charge is

12 something I really don't know.

13 Q. I'm going to ask you specifically. For these detention

14 facilities, was it the army or the police that was in charge of them or

15 some other institution, a third institution?

16 A. This was exclusively under the jurisdiction of the police.

17 Q. You were asked a whole series of questions by the Prosecutor as to

18 how you as a Yugoslav by conviction viewed certain things. However when I

19 go back through the transcript you said you were a Serb, an ethnic Serb,

20 isn't that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. PANTELIC: My friend just notified me, yes, okay.

23 Q. Very well, you are a Serb by ethnicity, aren't you?

24 A. Yes, I am.

25 Q. Tell me, as a Serb, in Samac, back in 1992, before the war broke

Page 17511

1 out, did you feel safe in view of the surroundings of Samac and everything

2 that was happening there? How did you feel?

3 A. I didn't feel safe. Because people were divided along ethnic

4 lines, there were attacks being carried out. You were not as free to move

5 about as you used to be before the outbreak of the conflict. That is

6 before the national parties were established.

7 Q. Tell me, did you have any information in the spring of 1992 about

8 the existence of the Republic of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

9 did you anything about that?

10 A. I don't think I understood your question, I'm sorry.

11 Q. You personally, did you have any information regarding the

12 existence of a Republic of the Serbian people within Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina, between January and April, 1992? You as a person, did you

14 hear anything about that?

15 A. I really don't know exactly what you're asking me.

16 Q. Was Republika Srpska in existence then?

17 A. I'm not sure when Republika Srpska was proclaimed.

18 Q. Did you know about the existence of the Serbian Municipality of

19 Samac and Pelagicevo?

20 A. Yes. I did. I think there was a public announcement once. It's

21 just that I didn't hear it.

22 Q. Was that in the period between January and April, 1992?

23 A. I really can't say because I don't know.

24 Q. At local level, did the SDS ever publish any announcements

25 concerning the expulsion of non-Serbs or hatred against non-Serbs? Did

Page 17512

1 you ever hear anything like that in Samac?

2 A. No, they didn't and no I didn't hear any such thing from anyone.

3 Q. Finally, can you tell me, if you know the name of any of the

4 perpetrators of the crime in Crkvina? Was this something people talked

5 about?

6 A. The only name that has ever been dropped is the name of Lugar,

7 Lugar, I know, was a member of that group of volunteers, who had arrived

8 from Serbia, but aside from him, I heard no other names being mentioned.

9 I heard that Josip Orsolic was the first man who was killed.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise, just one small correction for the

11 transcript, the witness when he was referring to Lugar said the policeman

12 that came from Serbia, and I don't see this in the record.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, perhaps the witness can go over the -- can he

14 repeat his answer slowly?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the perpetrators of the crime

16 in Crkvina, the only name that was ever mentioned was the name of Lugar

17 who was a member of the volunteers who had arrived from Serbia.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I finished with the

19 re-examination.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic?

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

22 Honours.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

24 Q. Just one final question from me. You told my colleagues from the

25 Prosecution today when asked about Simo Zaric working on security-related

Page 17513

1 issues in Odzak, you do remember that, don't you?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. The work obligation that is the arrival of people from Samac

4 municipality to work in Odzak, did that have anything to do with

5 security-related issues?

6 A. I don't think I understand your question.

7 Q. Security-related issues, do they have anything to do with

8 assigning workers to different tasks, workers who come under work

9 obligation?

10 A. No, there is no link between these two whatsoever.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

12 questions.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Mr. Tutnjevic. We have

14 finished receiving your evidence. You may leave the courtroom.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, before we bring in the next witness,

17 I would just like for some guidelines in respect to this witness and the

18 following three witnesses after this one who is about to come here.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: We were of course advised by the Trial Chamber

21 that we need to stick to these summaries that we provided the Trial

22 Chamber. This is one of the witnesses that was supposed to give his

23 testimony under 71 bis and also the time frames and I really intend to

24 follow that.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

Page 17514

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: But about this, is there any limitation as for

2 cross-examination of these witnesses? Because if we are about to lead one

3 witness from examination-in-chief for 30 minutes, then I really don't feel

4 it would be fair for the Prosecution to allow them to go for one hour or

5 two hours.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, no, no. They will also be restricted

7 within these timeframes because these witnesses were supposed to be on

8 depositions. There reason the Trial Chamber moved them to come to The

9 Hague was because the Trial Chamber wanted to observe them. That was the

10 only reason. So they will stick to the time limits and the incidents that

11 they are supposed to discuss. The Prosecution's cross-examination will

12 also be limited to mostly because these are 40, 40, to half the time.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Do I understand that it's one half of 40 minutes

14 or, for example, if I lead the witness for 40 minutes, they are allowed to

15 20 minutes? Or?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I just needed to have

18 some clarification.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: In fact, most of these witnesses are discussing

20 matters which have already been discussed by several witnesses so there is

21 nothing knew. Mr. Lukic? I think I saw Mr. Lukic first, before Mr. Re.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I merely wanted to

23 inform the Trial Chamber, in view of the time limits given for these

24 witnesses, that my witnesses, that's Mr. Tadic's 92 bis Rule witnesses can

25 start testifying on Monday. That's what I wanted to inform the Trial

Page 17515

1 Chamber about, as I said they would be ready on the 31st. I took

2 important steps for three of them who didn't even have valid passports to

3 have new passports issued to them, and they will be here on Monday.

4 That's the only thing I wanted to inform the Trial Chamber about,

5 concerning the schedule for Thursday and Friday.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are -- the Trial Chamber is aware that your

7 witnesses can only start on Monday and they will all come so that we

8 finish, we complete them at one go.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I think we'll follow your

10 schedule exactly, in one go, in a quick succession, I think we can deal

11 with it quickly.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: So that we finalise Mr. Tadic's witnesses. Yes,

13 thank you. Oh, Mr. Re?

14 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour. Just in relation to Your

15 Honour's ruling and specifically in relation to the next witness I

16 understand, waiting outside, Mr. Naser Sejdic.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it Mr. Naser Sejdic?

18 MR. RE: We were told at 6.00 last night that the next witness was

19 Naser Sejdic so --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Not Savo? I see. Okay. It will be Mr. Naser

21 Sejdic.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: It will be Mr. Naser Sejdic.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

24 MR. RE: Firstly we are having great difficulty in working out the

25 order of witnesses, we were advised last night about 6.00 that the next

Page 17516

1 witness was Mr. Sejdic, we had -- no searches had been done we have done

2 some emergency searches to try and find out who this person is and what he

3 was to testify about.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because the filings had been done sometime

5 back, if you look at the joint Defence filings for which were done in

6 November actually, that's where the summaries are for most of these --

7 MR. RE: It's a very tiny summary for this particular witness.

8 What we need is the order of witnesses so we can prepare ourselves one

9 after another because we have three people here.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe I can ask Mr. Lazarevic or Mr. Pisarevic since

11 they are all here so they can tell us how they intend to call them. The

12 first one as you say will Naser Sejdic.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I will explain that. This is to

14 be honest and I believe that my colleagues know that very well, it would

15 be the fifth time that I'm giving this same information but let me do it

16 again. As soon as we learned that Mr. Naser Sejdic has some problems

17 home and it was when he arrived and it was last week, we informed the

18 Registry and of course the Prosecution that instead of Mr. Petric Andrija,

19 he will come to testify first. Among these four witnesses that are

20 supposed to give their statements under Rule 71. So that was the change

21 that was made because he really had some problems home and he needs to go

22 back home as soon as possible. So after that, two of our witnesses due

23 to some problems of accommodation here in The Hague were transferred to

24 Leiden and they are now in Leiden so we really had a lot of problems about

25 organising all these but finally, at the end of the last week we informed

Page 17517

1 the Registry and of course our colleagues from the Prosecution about the

2 order of the remaining four witnesses. So Mr. Naser Sejdic is the first

3 one who will testify. After him it will be Mr. Petric Andrija. After

4 Mr. Petric Andrija, it's Savo Djurdjevic. And finally, it would be

5 Mr. Goran Buzakovic and that's the definite order because as I explained

6 we had a lot of problems in accommodation with witnesses with their

7 particular demands and everything but I believe by now I also informed the

8 Prosecution on many occasions about all these changes that --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, can we have the next witness, please?

10 MR. RE: Your Honour, I hadn't finished. Something I have to say

11 in relation to the next witness which I was -- which I was alluding to

12 before the Court officer brings the witness in.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe the usher can just stand by the door.

14 MR. RE: Thank you. The next witness, Mr. Sejdic, he is a witness

15 about whom a number of references or about which five, four our five

16 witnesses have testified as to his involvement as to what happened after

17 the takeover in Bosanski Samac. The witnesses were Witness C, Witness M,

18 Jelena Kapetanovic and Kemal and Ediba Bobic, all gave evidence of this

19 person basically doing house to house searches in company with the 4th

20 Detachment as a police officer, and taking them back to the police station

21 or some of them back where they were beaten severely by Mr. Todorovic.

22 The witness is really in the -- is possibly in the category of an

23 uncharged co-accused, given what must have been his knowledge and the

24 extensive evidence given before the Trial Chamber so far as to what was

25 occurring in the police station in April and May, 1992. If the witness

Page 17518

1 who is working there and the evidence was unchallenged during the

2 Prosecution case says that he was unaware of what was happening, his

3 evidence would have to be incapable of belief given the quantity the sheer

4 volume of evidence about what was occurring at the police station. Having

5 said that, his role, which is so far been revealed in the transcript

6 unchallenged by the Defence, of his role in searching for weapons and

7 arresting people, and he must have had the knowledge of the system of

8 persecution which was then in place, would at least place him in the

9 category of someone who was aiding and abetting, if not committing acts in

10 furtherance of what the Prosecution says is a common purpose. For that

11 reason, the reason of the evidence which is already on the transcript

12 before these proceedings as to his role, the Prosecution submits that the

13 witness should be warned under Rule 90(E) that he is not -- he should not

14 be compelled to incriminate himself, although he may of course -- can be

15 compelled to give the answer.

16 Now, having said that, I note Your Honours's ruling in relation to

17 cross-examination limits. Rule 90(H) of course, 90(H)(i) says that

18 cross-examination shall be limited to the subject matter, the evidence in

19 chief, matters affecting the credibility of the witness, and where the

20 witness is able to give evidence relevant to the case for the

21 cross-examining party, here the Prosecution, the subject matter of that

22 case. Clearly, from what the witness clearly from the evidence given

23 about this witness's actions to date in this case, and I can give Your

24 Honours the transcript references if you wish to go back and look at them,

25 this witness can give highly relevant evidence as to what exactly was

Page 17519

1 occurring in the police station, who was arranging it, his role, which are

2 matters which are highly relevant to the Trial Chamber's determination and

3 to the party cross-examining him, that is the Prosecution. Now of course

4 in the 20 minutes or 40 minutes whichever it is or half an hour we just

5 simply can't even start to get into that especially when there are

6 numerous objections and clarifications to the transcript which eat into an

7 already-limited amount of time for cross-examination. Now, this witness

8 in my submission is one who is -- whose evidence, whose cross-examination

9 should not be that constricted because there are highly relevant matters

10 we would wish to put to him including of course his own participation in

11 the system so those are my submissions in relation to what the Prosecution

12 said should happen to this particular witness.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe that I need to have -- I

14 need to answer just very briefly to what my colleague has just said. Our

15 next witness was a member of Serbian police but he's not the first member

16 of Serbian police who testified here before this Tribunal, and this issue

17 suddenly raises with this witness, although we had a police officer of

18 highest -- higher rank who testified before this Tribunal and the

19 Prosecution didn't have a problem with all -- with him giving his

20 testimony about that. If there is anything that we should know about the

21 witness, I believe that the Prosecution should have informed us earlier.

22 They have the data of this witness, they have a name of this witness, the

23 summary of this witness, for months, and I don't believe it's fair to

24 raise this question right this moment. After then again, in 40 minutes,

25 and I promise that to the Prosecution, because I informed them about what

Page 17520

1 this witness will testify about, he will -- he will give evidence also on

2 incidents he was involved, and that were mentioned before this Tribunal by

3 other witnesses here. And I believe that he can give his explanation, he

4 was -- I mean, I don't want to say anything before he really starts to

5 giving his testimony. I don't want to make any prejudice here, but this

6 is not the witness who is avoiding these topics. So I believe that this

7 submission of the Prosecution has just made is not established.

8 MR. RE: Could I briefly respond for Your Honour's benefit and for

9 my learned friends? I referred to evidence which is before this Trial

10 Chamber. I can give you the names of the witnesses and the transcript

11 references so everyone can look at it for themselves. There is no secret

12 about this.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re. I'm very much aware of what the

14 evidence is, which is on record.

15 MR. RE: Yes.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: But the point is, these are witnesses which we moved

17 from the deposition to come before the Trial Chamber so that we can

18 observe them. That is one point. The second point is that the

19 Prosecution has had sufficient opportunity to cross-examine on all the

20 matters that went on in the police station with the other witnesses.

21 Besides their own -- their own witness in the Prosecution case. So the

22 Trial Chamber does not believe that you need any more time than what is --

23 you are limited to now because the Trial Chamber is not interested in

24 repeating the same issues that have been discussed before with the other

25 witnesses.

Page 17521

1 MR. RE: Your Honour, I'm not -- I was not proposing in any way to

2 take the witness to events which are so established or unchallenged that

3 is what happened in the police station.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we proceed, Mr. Re? Please sit down. We have

5 discussed enough about these witnesses and the nature of the evidence they

6 are going to give so you just deal with the witness within the time that

7 the Trial Chamber will give you.

8 MR. RE: My point was about the warning to the witness because

9 there are matters there on the transcript which could incriminate him if I

10 ask him certain questions or he gives evidence. That was my primary

11 submission that he could incriminate himself in relation to matters which

12 are in evidence and which I was pointing to. That was my primary concern

13 for this witness. The cross-examination time limit is a secondary one.

14 That's why I wanted to take you to the -- inform you of the transcript

15 page references.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE MUMBA: It appears to me that perhaps the Trial Chamber

18 would like to look at the relevant provisions. So maybe we will start

19 with this witness tomorrow, since we have only a few minutes before the

20 end of our session. So we will rise and continue with our proceedings

21 tomorrow.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

23 1.42 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

24 the 27th day of March, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

25