Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17522

1 Thursday, 27 March 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the witness is sworn in, the Trial Chamber

10 has a ruling to deliver. The Trial Chamber has noted the submissions of

11 the Prosecution and the Defence response on whether or not any witness

12 requires a warning against self-incrimination. With regard to Defence

13 witness Naser Sejdic, the Prosecution evidence alleges that he

14 participated in some arrests of non-Serbs, notwithstanding the Trial

15 Chamber's ruling under Rule 98 bis, the basis for the said arrests is

16 still a contentious matter. The Defence is entitled to call evidence and

17 their witnesses are entitled to tell their side of events in which --

18 their side of the events in which they were involved without undue

19 hindrance. The rule on protection against self-incrimination is not

20 absolute.

21 The Trial Chamber can still compel a witness to answer questions

22 even when the answers may lead to self-incrimination. One of the reasons

23 why, in the practice of the Tribunal, the Trial Chamber is allowed to

24 compel witnesses to answer questions in such circumstances is because the

25 Trial Chamber is obliged to receive evidence which is relevant and has

Page 17523

1 probative value in its quest to ascertain the truth. The limited

2 protection for the witness as provided for in Rule 90(E) is sufficient.

3 Otherwise, it would be impossible to obtain evidence on some contentious

4 issues because of limited numbers of eye witnesses in war crime trials

5 such as those before this tribunal.

6 The Trial Chamber is of the view that the solemn declaration taken

7 by every witness in itself is sufficient. Besides, the rule does not

8 require the Trial Chamber to warn the witness ab initio. In this case,

9 the Trial Chamber has no reason to believe that Defence counsel has not

10 fully advised witnesses, especially so when some of the witnesses for the

11 same defendant had applied for safe conduct.

12 The proceedings will continue. And can the witness make the

13 solemn declaration?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 WITNESS: NASER SEJDIC

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Please be seated. Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Good morning, Your Honour, and if I may say before

20 I start examination of this witness, I would like to assure the Trial

21 Chamber that the witness is fully and properly informed about all his

22 rights and all --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

24 Examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

Page 17524

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. Please, we have a time limit for your testimony. However, that

3 should not be to the detriment of the clarity of your statement. In order

4 for everything that you say to be recorded properly, could you please

5 pause after answering my question? Pause for a few seconds after my

6 question and then start answering so that the interpreters would have time

7 to interpret what you say.

8 Could you please give your name and surname for the record?

9 A. Naser Sejdic.

10 Q. Tell me, where and when were you born?

11 A. The 10th of January, 1960 in Bosanski Samac.

12 Q. Are you married? Do you have any children?

13 A. Yes. I'm married and I have two sons.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters request that the witness please

15 speak into the microphone.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: The usher can assist. Maybe the witness can also

17 draw closer.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Tell me now, are you a member of any political party?

20 A. No, I'm not a member of any political party. I was a member of

21 the League of Communists until the 1990.

22 Q. Tell me, until the 17th of April, 1992, where did you work? Where

23 were you employed and what was your profession?

24 A. I completed the school of the interior in Sarajevo in 1980, and it

25 was then, in 1980 that I started to work as a policeman.

Page 17525

1 Q. Tell me, did you work at the police station in Bosanski Samac as a

2 policeman?

3 A. Yes. I worked in Bosanski Samac as a policeman. From 1980

4 onwards.

5 Q. I'm just going to put one question to you in relation to a

6 particular subject. Were you a member of the 4th Detachment in Bosanski

7 Samac?

8 A. No. I was not a member of the 4th Detachment because I worked as

9 a policeman.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, now I would like to move on to another

11 topic. The 16th of April, 1992, tell me, where were you on that day, what

12 were you doing on that day?

13 A. On the 16th of April, 1992, I was in my parents' house, together

14 with my wife, and my two sons who were underage.

15 Q. I forgot to put a question to you. Could you please tell me what

16 your ethnic background is?

17 A. I'm a Muslim, an ethnic Muslim.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 A. You're welcome.

20 Q. So on the 16th of April, 1992, you were in your father's house

21 with your wife and children. Was something unusual going on on that day,

22 the 16th of April?

23 A. I did not say one more thing, that my brother was there too as

24 well as my grandmother who was 85 at the time.

25 Q. Did you notice something unusual going on on that particular day,

Page 17526

1 the 16th of April?

2 A. The day was just like the previous few days, everybody was just

3 saying that a war would start.

4 Q. Did any particular events occur during the course of that day,

5 something that you might remember, something special related to the 16th

6 of April?

7 A. I can't remember.

8 Q. All right. Around 3.00 at night, on the 17th of April, did you

9 hear something perhaps that awakened you? If so, could you please tell

10 the Trial Chamber what it was?

11 A. Yes. Around 3.00, I heard that there was some shooting in town,

12 shooting from firearms.

13 Q. Tell me, what did you do? Did you do anything about it? Did you

14 call someone?

15 A. Yes. After a while, I called the police station in Bosanski

16 Samac, and nobody answered the phone.

17 Q. Tell me, that was practically early in the morning, after 3.00,

18 the morning of the 17th. Did you stay at home?

19 A. I stayed at home. I didn't go out. I didn't go anywhere. I

20 stayed with my family.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Now we have come to the morning of the 17th

22 of April. Can you tell us what happened in the morning of the 17th of

23 April, sometime, say, after 7.00 or 8.00 in the morning?

24 A. In the morning, around 9.00, a group of some 15 to 20 armed

25 persons came into my street. These were citizens, persons, who I know.

Page 17527

1 Q. Thank you very much. Did they come to your house? Were they in

2 front of your house? I'm sorry, I mean were they in front of your

3 father's house?

4 A. Yes. They were in front of my father's house. They came there

5 and they were carrying Kalashnikovs, hunting guns, pistols, and they

6 called me to come out of the yard and to join them.

7 Q. Just a moment, please. Let us clarify matters regarding this

8 group. First of all, tell me, to the best of your recollection, what were

9 the names of the persons, the armed persons, who came in front of your

10 house and asked to you join them?

11 A. I said that these were people from Samac. This was Hasan Bicic,

12 nicknamed Hase.

13 Q. Please proceed. You can speak a bit faster?

14 A. His brother, nicknamed Beca. Dagic [as interpreted], Esad,

15 nicknamed Ekac; Ibrahim Salkic, nicknamed Ibela; Dasa; Fadil Sabanovic,

16 nicknamed Suke. There were two brothers, two Sahacic brothers there.

17 Ferhat and the other one, I can't remember the other brother's. Nusret

18 Kapetanovic, nicknamed Saraf. I can't remember any more but there were

19 quite a few there. Dukic, Ciko; Ciko was his nickname. I can't

20 remember -- I remember his last name. I can't remember his first name. I

21 know all the nicknames, though.

22 Q. Thank you but for the sake of the transcript, I have been told,

23 when you said Ekac, what is the last name of that person?

24 A. Dagovic, Esad Dagovic.

25 Q. Tell me, since there were a few people with similar nicknames,

Page 17528

1 when you say Dasa --

2 A. Ramusovic, Ramusovic is Dasa.

3 Q. Tell me, is he related to you?

4 A. Yes. He is related to me. He is one of my relatives from my

5 mother's side.

6 Q. They called you to join them. What did they tell you, join them

7 in what exactly? Where were they headed for? What were you supposed to

8 do?

9 A. They called me to join them to go to the memorial centre. It was

10 on that side of Bosanski Samac, that the attack had been carried out, an

11 armed group in camouflage uniforms entered Samac and they said we should

12 go and defend the town of Samac. I asked from whom and they said from

13 some people in camouflage uniforms.

14 Q. So did you join the group?

15 A. No, I refused to go with them and I told my neighbour, Fadil

16 Sabanovic let's go back to the house. We did not wish to join them.

17 Q. Did they go eventually?

18 A. Yes. They did. They went towards the memorial centre that was

19 down the street.

20 Q. Thank you very much. On the 17th of April, did you again try

21 calling the police station?

22 A. Yes, I did, about 12.00, and again no one answered the phone. I

23 tried to call the duty officer there.

24 Q. On that same day, did you remain at your father's house or in the

25 yard outside the house?

Page 17529

1 A. Yes. I stayed there with my parents and my family. I didn't

2 leave.

3 Q. The next day, the 18th of April, what happened? What did you

4 experience on the 18th of April?

5 A. About 8.00 in the morning, Ibrahim Salkic arrived outside my

6 father's house. His nickname was Ibela. He told me to get my personal

7 weapons, my official weapons, the weapons that I officially signed for,

8 and to come to the Mola cafe at Rojice [phoen] which is near my father's

9 house.

10 Q. Tell me, please, did he tell you why you were supposed to take

11 your weapons with you, the weapons you kept at the house?

12 A. Yes, he did. Yes, yes, he did. That a man named Lugar was

13 expecting me, that those were specials who had arrived from Serbia, who

14 came to collect weapons.

15 Q. What did you do when Ibrahim Salkic called you?

16 A. I collected my Kalashnikov rifle, my official pistol, my hunting

17 weapon, the hunting rifle, and a hunting carbine for which I had a valid

18 permit, and I went towards the cafe. When I arrived in front of the cafe,

19 I saw this man they called Lugar, I didn't know what his name was, but he

20 was sitting on a chair there and everyone else was standing. He asked me

21 what my name was and what I did for life. I told him my name was Naser

22 Sedjic and that I was a police officer because then the force was still

23 referred to as police. At that moment I saw a friend of mine Dragan

24 Miskic, who immediately approached us and he told Lugar something, the man

25 wearing camouflage uniform. I assumed the plan was Lugar and he said

Page 17530

1 where did I get all these weapons and that I should leave it in the car

2 that was parked there.

3 Q. Hold on a minute. I believe a part of your answer has not been

4 recorded. Can you tell us who approached Lugar?

5 A. A young man I used to know, his name was Dragan Miskic.

6 Q. Tell me, please, you didn't hear exactly what he told Lugar?

7 A. No, I didn't.

8 Q. And after he said something to Lugar, please continue. What

9 happened then? Because this was not reflected in the transcript.

10 A. Lugar approached another young man and told him to handcuff me and

11 that I should sit down next to him.

12 Q. So did this man do it? Were you handcuffed?

13 A. Yes. He handcuffed me and I sat down next to him. More people

14 were arriving, mostly people from my neighbourhood.

15 Q. Tell us, what happened next? Were you taken anywhere?

16 A. After we were handcuffed, we were between ten and 12 people there,

17 they took us down the street and we walked down the street as far as the

18 police station.

19 Q. Can you please tell us what happened once you reached the police

20 station with Lugar?

21 A. There was a young man in camouflage uniform waiting outside the

22 police station, who immediately beat everyone who arrived there. He would

23 beat them and kick them there outside the police station in the street,

24 and our group too, and this man named Dragan came up again and told him

25 not to beat me because we had known each other.

Page 17531

1 Q. Tell me, where did Lugar take you personally eventually at the

2 police station?

3 A. I entered the police station and I reached the duty officer's

4 room, Lugar was following. I looked left and right down the corridor and

5 I noticed on the right-hand side near the duty officer's room my own

6 commander, Savo Cancarevic, who was standing there. Lugar grabbed me by

7 the arm then and took me down the stairs outside to the yard of the police

8 station.

9 Q. Excuse me, is this the yard where the garage is? Is that the yard

10 we are talking about?

11 A. Yes, precisely, that's the one. Once we were outside in the yard,

12 he pulled out a gun and he asked me how clever I was exactly.

13 Q. What did you answer?

14 A. I said yes, I should imagine I'm quite clever. So he repeated

15 this several times asking me how clever exactly I was. At that moment,

16 the commander, Savo Cancarevic arrived and Stevan Todorovic, my chief.

17 They told him to let me go, which he did. He called another young man

18 over, they removed my handcuffs, and I went straight to the office.

19 Q. Who did you go to see at the office?

20 A. I went to see Savo Cancarevic in his office. I was followed by

21 Chief Stevan Todorovic.

22 Q. What happened there?

23 A. Stevan Todorovic then asked whether I wanted to be a Serb

24 policeman.

25 Q. What did you say?

Page 17532

1 A. I agreed. He gave me a beret and a badge. He produced a paper, a

2 document for me to take an oath as a Serb policeman.

3 Q. At that moment, when Stevan Todorovic came up with this proposal,

4 and asked you whether you wanted to be a Serb policeman, what was your

5 impression? Did you really have any choice?

6 A. I don't think I had any choice at all. I didn't even have time to

7 think about it because Lugar was standing close to us and Stevan Todorovic

8 and two or three of Lugar's bodyguards wearing camouflage uniforms so I

9 said yes immediately without thinking twice.

10 Q. Thank you very much. So did you sign this statement, this oath of

11 loyalty, to the Serb police force?

12 A. Yes. I did sign the statement, yes.

13 Q. I think we have shed some light now on the way you became a member

14 of the Serb police on the 18th of April. From the 18th of April on, what

15 did you do, please tell us, as a member of the Serb police, what was your

16 jobs, what were your tasks as a Serb policeman?

17 A. We provided security for buildings. We brought people in to the

18 police station for interviews. We searched people's flats.

19 Q. Can you tell me about the technical aspects, the purely technical

20 aspects of the job? First you would come to the police station. Can you

21 tell me once you were at the police station, who told you what to do on

22 any particular day, what your daily task would be?

23 A. We were a patrol consisting of five police officers. The leader

24 of the patrol was one of the specials from Serbia. In our patrol it was

25 Zoran, Zoka from Sid. Then he would take the order for that day with --

Page 17533

1 including the tasks of what we were to do on that particular day, whether

2 we should bring someone in to the police station, whether we should patrol

3 the town or whether we should provide security for a particular building.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Just one thing remaining to be clarified,

5 who was the leader of that patrol?

6 A. As I said, it was a member of the Special Forces from Serbia, who

7 was responsible for us, other members of the patrol, and he told us what

8 to do.

9 Q. Were you personally ever the leader of the patrol?

10 A. No, never.

11 Q. These tasks you had to carry out, was that something to do with

12 staying at the police station or was it mostly work outside the police

13 building and about the town of Samac?

14 A. We spent very little time at the police station itself. We would

15 only go there for our patrol orders, with specific tasks and we hardly

16 spent any time there at all.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, can you tell us the following, please?

18 At the SUP building itself, and across the street at the TO building, did

19 you know that there were any persons being held in detention?

20 A. Yes. I did know about people being held there at the SUP

21 building, on the first floor, in three different rooms, on the ground

22 floor in one room and at the TO building across the road from the SUP

23 building, people were even being held in the garages outside in the yard.

24 Q. Did you ever enter the TO building?

25 A. Yes, I did, several times. I would bring food to those people who

Page 17534

1 were being held there because those were my neighbours, people I knew.

2 Q. What was your personal observation concerning the people you saw

3 at the TO building? What state were they in?

4 A. I didn't have time to linger about for too long but every time I

5 came, they looked as if they had been badly beaten, beaten black and

6 blue. They were totally exhausted and they weren't allowed to talk to

7 me. So the only thing they had is what members of their family sent to

8 them, a sandwich, a piece of food.

9 Q. I'll ask you directly in a very straightforward way, sir: You

10 personally, did you ever maltreat, beat or verbally abuse any of the

11 prisoners there? Did you torture any of those prisoners there in any

12 other way?

13 A. No. I never touched a soul. I never beat anyone. I never

14 tortured anyone.

15 Q. Tell me, do you know that there were people who were detained at

16 the elementary school and the high school in Bosanski Samac?

17 A. Yes. I know that there were persons who were detained there as

18 well at the elementary school and the high school.

19 Q. Tell me, who guarded these detainees? It's quite clear who

20 guarded them at the police station but what about the elementary school

21 and the high school, who was on guard duty there?

22 A. The police, the police guarded those facilities as well.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Tell me, to the best of your knowledge,

24 these people who were detained during this first round, so to speak,

25 during the first days of the war, tell me, what was it that you were told,

Page 17535

1 what is it that you learned, why were these people arrested?

2 A. We were told that they were being arrested because they had

3 weapons in their possession, because they were on lists.

4 Q. Can you just tell me what kind of lists, if you know?

5 A. This list was a list of the SDA party, a list of members of the

6 SDA party, and the weapons they had.

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 A. You're welcome.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: In the interests of protecting identity of certain

10 witnesses here we would like to move to private session for some period.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can we move into private session?

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17536

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 17536 redacted private session

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 17537

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Sir, do you know Jelena Kapetanovic, formerly Stanisic?

8 A. Yes, I know Jelena Kapetanovic.

9 Q. Tell me, the patrol that you were on, did it search the apartment

10 where she lived?

11 A. Yes. We searched her apartment too.

12 Q. What were the orders related to her apartment? Do you perhaps

13 remember what were the instructions that you received and why her

14 apartment was to be searched?

15 A. The order said that she had a rifle, a Kalashnikov in her

16 apartment.

17 Q. Tell me, did your patrol at one point take Jelena Stanisic to

18 Zasavica?

19 A. Yes. We took Jelena to Zasavica. This patrol of ours took Jelena

20 to Zasavica.

21 Q. Just one more question related to Jelena Kapetanovic, if you

22 remember. At one moment, when one of the exchanges was organised, did you

23 stop Jelena Kapetanovic from boarding the bus that was supposed to take

24 people to the exchange?

25 A. Yes. I stopped her because she was not on the list for the

Page 17538

1 exchange so I told her that she could not enter the bus.

2 Q. Tell me, what were the orders that you had that day in relation to

3 people who were supposed to board the bus and in relation to the list and

4 everything else?

5 A. The order was that these people who were on the list could enter

6 the bus and that we should escort them to Okucani. I think it was

7 Okucani. Okucani, Gradiska, that the police escort with its car was

8 supposed to go to Okucani, yes, that's right.

9 Q. And what were you told about persons who were not on the list?

10 A. Whoever was not on the list was not supposed to enter the bus and

11 was supposed to go back to Zasavica.

12 Q. Excuse me. Tell me, who gave you these orders? Who gave you

13 orders in the morning generally speaking as to what you were supposed to

14 do?

15 A. Well, we received orders from the duty officer, and these orders

16 and lists were given to the duty officer by Chief Stevan Todorovic, and

17 then we would take them from him.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, what about the name Hasan Subasic?

19 Does that mean anything to you? Unfortunately I don't know his nickname

20 so I cannot be of any assistance to you in that way.

21 A. Hasan Subasic is a person I cannot remember by his name and

22 surname. I know whose son he is but I really cannot remember him. I

23 cannot remember who this man is.

24 Q. Can you remember whether your patrol perhaps took part in the

25 search of his apartment?

Page 17539

1 JUDGE MUMBA: How can the witness remember when he says he can't

2 remember this person?

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I understand your witness point.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know Kemal Bobic?

5 A. Yes. I know Kemal Bobic.

6 Q. I'm going to put a very simple question to you. Did your patrol,

7 the patrol that you were on, arrest Kemal Bobic?

8 A. Well, no. My patrol did not arrest Kemal Bobic.

9 Q. Tell me, do you know whether Kemal Bobic was arrested at all?

10 MR. RE: The Prosecution objects to the evidence my learned friend

11 is leading from this witness in relation to Mr. Bobic. The -- yesterday I

12 filed a notification in relation to witnesses' evidence. Mr. Bobic's

13 evidence was one of the references I included in the notification I filed.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

15 MR. RE: Under Rule 90(H)(ii) in cross-examination, a party is

16 required to put to a witness evidence which appears to be in contradiction

17 of it given by its -- sorry evidence which is in contradiction of the

18 evidence given by the witness. Your Honours will know from looking at the

19 transcript of Mr. Bobic's evidence overnight, that the Defence did not in

20 any way challenge Mr. or Mrs. Bobic's account that he was arrested by the

21 patrol containing, including the witness giving evidence here now, and it

22 wasn't something that took the Defence by surprise because it was

23 contained in the statements of both Mrs. Ediba Bobic and Mr. Kemal Bobic

24 which the Defence had had for a long time. And in fact Mr. Pisarevic read

25 to Mr. -- read to Mr. Bobic part of his statement in relation to Mr.

Page 17540

1 Sedjic showing -- what Mr. Sejdic allegedly said that Mr. Lazarevic had

2 allegedly said. So the Prosecution objects to evidence being led to this

3 witness which wasn't put and the Defence had every opportunity to do so,

4 to put its contrary case to the two Bobics at the time. If Your Honours

5 are against me on that, this ultimate submission will be the evidence has

6 no weight at all because of that, because the Bobic's, unless they are

7 recalled have not been given a chance to deny the evidence which is about

8 to be led from this witness.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: During all Prosecution case, the Defence of

10 Mr. Zaric denied that Mr. Zaric ordered, that was in position to issue any

11 order to the police officers to arrest anyone. This is nothing that the

12 Prosecution was not aware of and this Trial Chamber was also aware of

13 that. Furthermore, in our summaries, when we proposed this witness, this

14 was the main issue that we wanted this witness to testify about. It is

15 quite obvious that looking through the summaries and our proposal in

16 respect to Rule 71 and testimony of the witnesses, we said that this

17 witness is here to testify about Mr. Zaric allegedly ordered -- ordered

18 him to arrest Kemal Bobic. So I believe that this is not really any

19 ground for this submission of my colleague from the Prosecution.

20 MR. RE: Your Honours my objection is specifically under Rule

21 90(H)(ii). It's not in relation to what the witness -- what Mr. Bobic

22 said that this witness allegedly said about Mr. Zaric. That at its

23 highest, that is hearsay. That Bobic says that Sejdic said that Zaric

24 said something. The Prosecution is stuck with that for the purposes of

25 its case. What I'm objecting to is my learned friend leading evidence

Page 17541

1 from this witness which was not challenged -- not challenged in relation

2 to the two witnesses who gave evidence of this witness arresting

3 Mr. Bobic. The rules are very clear on this. My learned friend -- the

4 rules were clear then. My learned friend's had the statements they are on

5 complete notice of what the evidence was going to be yet did not challenge

6 it. That's my objection. Notwithstanding what -- the one line in the

7 Rule 71 deposition, our notice of what this witness is going to say came

8 at 2 minutes to 9.00 this morning when we received proofing notes.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is of the view that evidence which

11 is relevant and has probative value and which will assist the Trial

12 Chamber to ascertain the truth will be allowed, notwithstanding the

13 objection of the Prosecution that particular pieces of evidence were not

14 put to the Prosecution witnesses. So the Defence will be allowed to lead

15 evidence.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, and if I may add one thing? In

17 the first statement that we were given by the Prosecution of Mr. Kemal

18 Bobic, the statement that he gave to the investigators of the Prosecution,

19 there was no mention of Mr. Zaric. For the first time he mentioned that

20 it was here. We needed of course to check whether this information -- we

21 had instructions of course from our client but we had to do some research

22 in the field but generally we have always one same line of Defence towards

23 arrests and other things.

24 MR. RE: I must correct that for the record. The statement of

25 Mr. Bobic which was served on the Defence mentions Mr. Sejdic in two

Page 17542

1 parts and Mr. Zaric in one but in a different part. The issue here is not

2 what Mr. Zaric -- is not what Mr. Zaric said. It's what -- my objection

3 and I'm not cavilling with Your Honour's ruling is in relation to it not

4 being put -- the arrest not being put to the witness, not the part about

5 Mr. Zaric because we don't know what Mr. Zaric said. Only this witness

6 can tell us. I mean --

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, yes.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber will not allow

9 technicalities to get in the way of receiving evidence which is relevant.

10 The Defence can go ahead.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Sir, the last question before our exchange with the Prosecution,

13 the patrol that you were on, did you arrest Kemal Bobic? And you said

14 that you didn't. Do you know whether Kemal Bobic was arrested?

15 A. Yes. I do know that he was arrested.

16 Q. Do you know which patrol precisely arrested, carried out the

17 arrest of Kemal Bobic, who led the patrol that arrested Kemal Bobic?

18 A. Yes. I do know. This policeman known as Sole who arrested him,

19 was on that patrol.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Did Simo Zaric ever tell you or give you any

21 orders to arrest anyone?

22 A. No. Simo Zaric was not the one who gave us orders and he never

23 gave us orders and never told us to do anything. We had our own chief,

24 Stevan Todorovic, who did that, as well as the commander, Savo Cancarevic.

25 So we never had anything to do with Simo Zaric in that respect, in terms

Page 17543

1 of bringing persons in, in terms of searching people's flats.

2 Q. Was Simo Zaric a member of the police at all? To the best of your

3 knowledge, of course.

4 A. Yes, that's what I'm telling you. He was not a member of the

5 police. We had our own commanding officers, our own superiors, in the

6 police. Simo Zaric had nothing whatsoever to do with the police.

7 Q. Thank you very much. I'll just ask you another question --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic, your time has been up --

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I'm afraid I didn't pay much

10 attention. There was some exchange of arguments between the Prosecution,

11 there is literally two more minutes to complete this.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please wind up.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Sir, as a member of the police, did you ever take part in any

15 actions together with the army?

16 A. Yes. I did take part in operations together with the army. Joint

17 operations with the army, rather, as a police officer. We went to Gorice,

18 to the front line in Gorice together with the army.

19 Q. Tell me, please, when were you led to that operation, as a police

20 officer, who was the leader of the police in that operation?

21 A. We went there with the Special Forces from Serbia where we had --

22 who had their own commander, Lugar, and the army was in charge of the

23 operation. The command was based in Pelagicevo for that operation.

24 [Realtime transcript read in error "A."] The commander was Nikolic.

25 Q. Just one last thing, after the end of this operation --

Page 17544

1 MR. RE: Can we please clarify when that was?

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. For the benefit of my colleague from the Prosecution, please tell

4 us the time frame?

5 A. I think it was in May.

6 Q. Once the operation was completed, what happened to you? Did you

7 go back to your usual job as policeman?

8 A. Yes. As soon as the operation was completed, we returned to

9 Samac, and we went back to our old jobs, the jobs that we had been doing

10 before, as police officers. We never had anything else to do with the

11 army.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much Mr. Sejdic. I

13 have no further questions, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, does anybody from the Defence wish to ask

15 questions?

16 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, first of all, just intervention

17 to the transcript, it's at page 22, line 16 until 19, in line 19, the

18 answer should be added to the previous answer, because it is not so

19 clear. Because we have two answers. First sentence starts with word we

20 went there, et cetera, et cetera, and then after the word operation,

21 should be added the -- just for the sake of clarity of the transcript.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: That will be corrected because it's part of -- it's

23 a continuous answer.

24 MR. PANTELIC: That is correct, Your Honour, yes.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

Page 17545

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, my name is Pantelic. I defend

3 Mr. Blagoje Simic before there Tribunal. Just a couple of issues. You

4 were born in Samac. You worked there. For the whole duration of the war

5 and even nowadays, do you still reside in Samac?

6 A. Yes. I was born in Samac. I spent the whole war in Samac. I

7 still reside in Samac.

8 Q. As concerns your family, were they also in Samac for the whole

9 time with you? Are they still there?

10 A. Yes, my family too. We all live there together.

11 Q. During the war, did you reside in your flat, you and your family?

12 Please explain to the Trial Chamber what was the situation concerning

13 where you lived. Did anyone expel you from any of your flats or did you

14 stay there for the whole time?

15 A. Yes. I resided in my flat. My parents and my brother have their

16 own family house. That's where they were. No one drove us out of the

17 flat or anything.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you very much, Mr. Sejdic.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic?

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, thank you we have

21 several questions for this witness.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic:

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Sejdic, my name is Dragan Krgovic, I will ask

24 you a number of questions on behalf of Mr. Miroslav Tadic's defence. My

25 learned colleague, Lazarevic asked you questions in relation to orders for

Page 17546

1 bringing persons in which you were receiving from your superiors,

2 Todorovic and Cancarevic. Tell me, please, and obviously you received

3 your orders through your patrol leader. Is that what you told my

4 colleague, Lazarevic? I mean the chain was let me explain this, it was

5 Chief of Police or the commander, the duty officer, the patrol leader, and

6 then the order would finally reach you? Is that how it happened?

7 A. Yes, yes. Precisely. That's how we obtained our lists [as

8 interpreted]. The duty officer would give it to the patrol leader.

9 Sometimes he would read the order, sometimes I would read it but it came

10 from the duty officer, from the chief of the police.

11 Q. This order would contain the name of the person to be brought in

12 for an interview and the reasons for it; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, yes. That's what it contained, first and last name of the

14 person, and the reason for the interview.

15 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me for interrupting you but page 25, line

16 1, the witness answered the question, "Yes, yes, precisely, that's how we

17 obtained our lists." Is that the correct word or should it be orders? Is

18 he now talking about orders in connection with exchanges or performing

19 other duties? Because this sounds a bit strange, to talk about lists.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It's probably a

21 misinterpretation. I'm asking the witness about the circumstances

22 surrounding the bringing in of persons to the police station for

23 interviews. And what he said instead of list, we should have order.

24 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Okay.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 17547

1 Q. Mr. Sejdic, the transcript says list. What you mean is an order

2 to bring someone in to be interviewed with the names of persons and the

3 reasons for the interview. Just please say it loud and clear into the

4 microphone for the sake of the transcript. You nodded.

5 A. Yes, yes, an order.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, this was a written order, was it? Or

7 was it an oral order?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a written order. Patrol

9 order.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Sejdic, this procedure of bringing persons into the police

12 station, was this done the same way even before the war in Bosanski

13 Samac? Was the procedure the same?

14 A. Yes, the procedure was the same before the war and during the

15 war. We would receive orders to bring someone in for an interview.

16 Q. Mr. Sejdic, would you do anything outside that order or would you

17 adhere strictly to orders issued according to standard police procedure?

18 A. We followed the orders strictly, the orders as issued to us.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Sejdic. I

20 have no further questions for this witness, Your Honours.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution?

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Re:

24 Q. Mr. Sejdic, my name is David Re, I'm going to ask you some

25 questions on behalf of the Prosecution. The first question I wish to ask

Page 17548

1 you is in relation to your own arrest by Lugar, I think you said it was on

2 the 18th or 19th of April, 1992. When you were arrested, no reason was

3 given for your arrest, was it?

4 A. It happened on the 18th of April. They were arresting everyone in

5 my neighbourhood. As I said, between ten and 12 people.

6 Q. Please listen to the question I asked. My question was no one

7 gave you any reason for your arrest, did they?

8 A. No. No one gave me any reason.

9 Q. The people in your neighbourhood, were they Muslims?

10 A. Yes. They were.

11 Q. The only reason you know that you and those other people were

12 arrested was because they were Muslims, correct?

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: I object. First of all, my -- first of all, my

14 dear colleague asked the witness whether he was given any reason and he

15 said not any reason was given to him why he was arrested and now he is

16 giving some reason for him and asking him to speculate. If he doesn't

17 know the reason, how could he know why he was arrested.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: No, the question is proper for the Prosecution.

19 They are suggesting to him so the witness should be able to answer.

20 MR. RE:

21 Q. The only reason you and the other people, the other Muslims were

22 arrested was because they were Muslims, right?

23 A. That's not correct, that that was the reason. We all carried our

24 weapons, my neighbours too, and we took it into the car when we arrived

25 outside the cafe, and that was the reason why we were arrested.

Page 17549

1 Q. Sir, after the paramilitaries seized control of Bosanski Samac

2 municipality on the night of the 17th of April, 1992, they started

3 arresting large numbers of Muslims and Croats, didn't they?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. And that process continued over a period of months, didn't it?

6 Arrests of Muslims and Croats.

7 A. Only those who had weapons and those whose names were on lists

8 were arrested.

9 Q. Are you suggesting that old women and children's names are on

10 lists of people who should have been arrested, sir? Is that your

11 evidence?

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that we have no evidence about arrested

13 children and -- here.

14 MR. RE: Is my learned friend suggesting that taking people to

15 isolation facilities isn't arresting them or detaining them unlawfully?

16 Is that what --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, maybe there can be a problem with

18 technicalities there. We have been using the word isolation generally.

19 MR. RE: May it please the Tribunal. I'll rephrase the question.

20 Q. Your evidence sir is that the only people who were arrested in

21 Bosanski Samac after the 17th of April, 1992, in that year, who were

22 Muslims and Croats, were people on lists allegedly suspected of arming?

23 Is that your evidence before this Trial Chamber, sir?

24 A. I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you try to put a

25 more concise question, please?

Page 17550

1 Q. Hundreds of Croats and Muslims were arrested in Bosanski Samac

2 after the 17th of April, 1992 by Serbian police and regular police,

3 weren't they?

4 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, just intervention. We heard in B/C/S

5 language something which may be confused for this witness, in last

6 question of my learned friend. I know that in English, it sounds proper,

7 Serbian police and regular police, but what we heard in B/C/S language, as

8 well as this witness, is that it was not related to the Serbian police

9 from Serbia and regular police from Samac. It sounds that it is the same

10 category in two words. So maybe that could be corrected. Maybe my

11 learned friend just can rephrase the question when saying police who

12 came -- which came from Serbia or specials or volunteers or whatever, and

13 a local police, in order to clarify that, because in B/C/S language we

14 heard practically two words with the same notion, which is confusing.

15 That was the basis of my intervention.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re?

17 MR. RE: I just note that that objection or intervention took one

18 minute of my -- and seven seconds of the cross-examination. I can clarify

19 a question but --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: But I think it's fair to the witness if you are more

21 particular when you are talking about the police because as Mr. Pantelic

22 does say, and he -- and even the witness was talking about Lugar so I

23 think it's better to be precise as to which group you're referring to when

24 you're talking about the police.

25 MR. RE: I will do that but the trouble is Your Honour with

Page 17551

1 cross-examination limits instead of asking the four questions to get to

2 that, I'm trying to role it up into one and paraphrase it. That's the

3 difficulty with this. So I'll go back and try and do it again.

4 Q. Mr. Sejdic, my question was after the 17th of April, 1992, police

5 arrested hundreds of Croats and Muslims in Bosanski Samac, didn't they?

6 A. The special police force from Serbia, they were the ones who were

7 arresting people. I did say that.

8 Q. Sir, your own evidence earlier was that you participated in

9 patrols that went around arresting people. Are you saying that you were a

10 member of these special police when you were doing that?

11 A. No. The special police were arresting people. One of them was

12 with us, this man named Zoran. He was in our patrol. We were to bring

13 people in for interviews, not to arrest them, people from the town of

14 Samac.

15 Q. The people whose houses you went to with this member of the

16 special police in company with other police officers from Bosanski Samac,

17 those people whose houses you went to didn't have a choice about whether

18 they went with you or stayed behind, did they?

19 A. They did have a choice. They did not have to go with us.

20 Q. So --

21 A. We brought the people whose -- we did not bring everyone whose

22 houses we had entered. We did not bring anyone to the police station. It

23 was only if we found weapons in a certain flat, say, then the person who

24 owns the flat would be taken in for an interview. Many people did not

25 need to come with us to the police station to be interviewed.

Page 17552

1 Q. Is your evidence to this Trial Chamber that you personally, in

2 company with the other police and the Serb police or paramilitaries or

3 whoever, never arrested and took to the police station a single person in

4 whose house you didn't find weapons? Is that your evidence?

5 A. No, no. That's not my evidence. Those whose names were not

6 included in the order, because there were names of people that were

7 included in the order to be taken in for an interview, and they didn't

8 have weapons, and they were released immediately.

9 Q. Please concentrate on what I'm asking you. I'm asking you this:

10 Are you saying that you and the other Serb police officers from wherever

11 never arrested a single person, that is took them to the police station,

12 involuntarily or under arrest, unless they had weapons? Did you only take

13 people to the police station who had no choice other than to come with you

14 who had weapons? That's what I'm asking you. That you had found weapons

15 in the house. That's what I'm asking you.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: I must apologise. I don't want to interrupt my

17 colleague but this question, there are at least four to five versions of

18 what he is putting to the witness. Could he please ask the witness

19 simple, short questions? I really couldn't follow even myself what was

20 the question of the Prosecution.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: This witness has answered. If you look at the

22 answer on page 30, line 24, he has explained that those whose names were

23 not included in the order, because there were names of people that were

24 included in the order to be taken in for an interview and they didn't have

25 weapons and they were released immediately. So there were two categories.

Page 17553

1 MR. RE:

2 Q. You were aware, your evidence has been to this effect, that

3 prisoners held at the SUP, the MUP and the two schools -- sorry, the SUP,

4 the TO and the two schools were treated abominably by those detaining

5 them?

6 A. Yes, yes. They were being beaten. I saw that myself. They were

7 in prison at the police station, the TO building too, whenever I went

8 there. I said that I saw people there who had been beaten by the

9 specials, by the special police, and I did say that. Because they were

10 the ones who brought them there.

11 Q. That included people whose names were on the lists and people

12 whose names were not on lists, didn't it?

13 A. This included people whose names were on the lists and those

14 people who had been imprisoned because they were in possession of weapons.

15 Q. From the 17th of April onwards in Bosanski Samac, whoever was

16 responsible for this had established a system in which prisoners were

17 systematically beaten and tortured in detention facilities, hadn't they?

18 A. No, no, not systematically tortured. Those specials, you know,

19 they would get drunk, they would go to the TO building, and beat those

20 people there but it was no systematic torture.

21 Q. There is clear evidence before this Tribunal, this Trial Chamber,

22 Mr. Sejdic, of Mr. Todorovic who has admitted himself beating torturing

23 and even killing prisoners in the police station. He was in charge of the

24 police station. I'm suggesting to you he put in place a system in that

25 police station which was of systematic brutality to those who were held.

Page 17554

1 Do you agree or disagree?

2 A. I wouldn't agree just like that. They did beat them. He did beat

3 them and the specials beat them too but I never personally witnessed any

4 beatings. When those people, those detainees, were being beaten. I knew

5 that he was there and I knew that the specials were beating them but if on

6 a systematic scale, I don't know about that.

7 Q. You worked in that police station from the 17th of April, after

8 the change of -- after the takeover right through that year, didn't you?

9 On a full-time basis.

10 A. Yes, yes, from the 17th of April on.

11 Q. Everyone who was working in that police station was aware that

12 prisoners were being beaten and tortured regularly, weren't they,

13 including yourself?

14 A. We did hear about that, yes, people being beaten.

15 Q. And that happened and you knew about that from the first few days

16 after the 17th of April, didn't you?

17 A. Yes, yes. I knew about that. I knew about people being beaten.

18 Q. You knew that Todorovic was responsible for some of the beatings,

19 didn't you?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. And you knew that prisoners who or people who were being asked to

22 come to the police station for questioning were at risk of being beaten by

23 the specials coming in and Todorovic and other people, weren't you?

24 A. The people I brought over to the police station, I would just hand

25 them over to the duty officer. Now what happened to them later, there was

Page 17555

1 no way for me to know.

2 Q. That's not a serious answer, sir, is it?

3 A. Well, I'm telling you, I would bring persons over to the police

4 station, and we would hand these persons over to the duty officer and we

5 had nothing more to do with them.

6 Q. You knew the system of interrogations taking place in that police

7 station after the 17th of April, 1992, was very, very different from the

8 procedures which you had experienced before the war, wasn't it?

9 A. Yes. It's true that I knew the system was different now. But

10 this was not my decision, whether someone would be beaten or not. I had

11 to bring those people in, if I can clarify to you this way.

12 Q. Throughout that year, you brought in people to the police station

13 knowing that they were at risk of being beaten senseless by Stevan

14 Todorovic, his men or specials from Serbia, didn't you? Because you knew

15 that was happening in the police station.

16 A. We didn't keep bringing them in for the whole year. I'm talking

17 about my patrol. I'm talking about myself. We brought people in and kept

18 doing so for the first ten or 15 days.

19 MR. RE: Your Honour, it's 10.31.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will take our break and continue at 11.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re. I thought I had asked to you

24 continue.

25 MR. RE: There is nothing on the transcript. I didn't hear

Page 17556

1 anything. I'm sorry.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You can continue.

3 MR. RE:

4 Q. Mr. Sejdic, at the time you were working in the police station in

5 1992, there were no Serbs in custody being beaten by Todorovic and the

6 other Serb paramilitaries -- or the Serb paramilitary or police, were

7 there?

8 A. No. There were two Serbs who were detained, who were also beaten,

9 and after a few days, they were released.

10 Q. Apart from those two, all the other people who were being -- who

11 were arrested and detained in that SUP, the TO, the elementary school and

12 the primary school were all Muslims and Croats, the people who were being

13 beaten, weren't they?

14 A. Yes, yes. All of them were Muslims and Croats.

15 Q. It was obvious to you and everyone else working for the police,

16 working from that SUP, that Croats and Muslims were being arrested because

17 they were Croats and Muslims, wasn't it?

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: I object. This is the second time my colleague is

19 posing the same question and the witness already gave the answer what was

20 his knowledge as what was the reason for the arrest of the people.

21 MR. RE: No that was in relation to his own arrest and the arrest

22 of the people in his neighbourhood on the 17th of April. I'm now asking

23 him about the people he has just described as being in detention in the

24 SUP, the TO and the two schools after that.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please go ahead.

Page 17557

1 MR. RE:

2 Q. Sir, you understand my question, those Croats and Muslims who I've

3 just spoken about who were in the SUP, the TO and the two schools, were

4 there were arrested because they were Muslims and Croats, correct?

5 A. Yes. They were arrested because they were Muslims and Croats, who

6 had weapons at their houses. I already said that. And this was on the

7 lists.

8 Q. Any members of the clergy, without mentioning names, on the list

9 who had possession of weapons? No names, please, but just members of the

10 clergy?

11 A. There was a member of the clergy who did not have any weapons and

12 who was there nevertheless.

13 Q. And he was tortured and beaten while in custody by the Serbs,

14 wasn't he?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. The only reason you know of for his arrest was because he was a

17 Croat, correct?

18 A. Because he was a clergyman?

19 Q. Because he was a Croat, sir.

20 A. All right. A Croatian clergyman.

21 Q. Serbs were not being arrested for possession of weapons or having

22 their name on lists, were they?

23 A. Serbs were not being arrested.

24 Q. The system of arrest was directed solely at Muslims and Croats,

25 wasn't it?

Page 17558

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. The system of interrogation of those who were arrested, that is

3 the Muslims and Croats, was directed solely at Muslims and Croats, wasn't

4 it?

5 A. I'm just telling you, it was directed solely at those who had

6 weapons, those were the ones who were being interrogated. Serbs -- no,

7 sorry, Croats and Muslims who were on lists, they were brought in for

8 interviews and they were interrogated in prison.

9 Q. Sir, we've already established there was a member of the clergy, a

10 Croat member of the clergy who wasn't on those lists but was nevertheless

11 interrogated and brought in. What I'm asking you about is the system

12 there which was directed solely at Muslims and Croats. Everyone working

13 in the police station knew and everyone taking part in the arrests, the

14 interrogations, knew that it was directed solely at Muslims and Croats.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Don't answer. Objection, Your

16 Honours. The witness has already answered several times that he knew that

17 these Muslims and Croats were arrested and interrogated because of

18 weapons, and now again he's being asked to speculate whether that was the

19 kind of system that had been established. He said that he knew about his

20 reasons -- about the reasons why these people were being arrested and

21 interrogated. And it is speculation to ask whether everybody at the

22 police station knew about that. How can he know what everybody thought

23 and knew?

24 MR. RE: The witness was working there, during the crucial period

25 he can certainly give his evidence as to his knowledge of the knowledge of

Page 17559

1 the other people participating in the system and that is what I am asking

2 him about. If he doesn't know, he can tell the Court.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And I think you have spent a lot of time on

4 this point. Let the witness answer.

5 MR. RE: Thank you.

6 Q. Sir, what I'm asking you is this system which you agreed was in

7 place of arresting Muslims and Croats, Serbs were not being arrested for

8 possession of weapons, that means it was a discriminatory system against

9 Croats and Muslims because Serbs were also in possession of weapons,

10 weren't they?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. All right. We'll start again. As a police officer in Bosanski

13 Samac in 1992 you were aware that Serbs were also arming as well as the

14 SDA and HDZ, weren't you?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. None of those Serbs who were arming themselves were arrested and

17 detained in any of the four detention centres I have mentioned for illegal

18 possession of weapons or arming, were they?

19 A. Why would they be arrested? What would the reason be for that?

20 Would the grounds be illegal possession of weapons? Is that what you

21 mean? What would the reason be?

22 Q. Are you suggesting, sir --

23 A. Serbs, you mean?

24 Q. I said Serbs. Are you suggesting that the SDS arming itself or

25 Serbs arming themselves were somehow in a different category in terms of

Page 17560

1 the law and illegal arming to Croats, Muslims, members of the SDA and

2 HDZ? Is that what you're saying, Serbs are in their own category?

3 A. No, no, no. That's not what I said.

4 Q. Answer my question, then. My question was the fact that the Serbs

5 were not being arrested but the other two groups were meant that they were

6 discriminatory arrests, correct? He was doing the arresting.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: I know he was. He was a member of patrol who

8 brought people into SUP, and to be fair to the witness, the decision about

9 who will be arrested eventually when one is brought in the SUP was not up

10 to him or other members -- maybe other members of patrol. Asking him

11 about legal position of Serbs who were not being brought in the SUP or

12 whether they were not, and asking him to speculate whether there was any

13 system of why these arrests were -- he is a factual witness and he cannot

14 be a legal expert to give any kind of explanation whether there was a

15 system or -- of persecution or something like that. He very simply

16 answered that he's aware that most -- a great majority of people who were

17 arrested were Croats and Muslims and asking him to drive one line or

18 system or something like that, I really don't believe it's fair to this

19 witness.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber doesn't see anything wrong with

21 the question of the witness, because this witness did get involved in

22 these arrests and he was -- and he was in Bosanski Samac for that whole

23 period so he should be able to know whether or not the system was

24 discriminatory. He can answer that question.

25 MR. RE:

Page 17561

1 Q. Sir, my question is simply this: The fact that the Serbs were not

2 being arrested for doing what the Croats and Muslims were doing, that

3 is arming themselves from what you saw meant that those arrests of

4 non-Serbs was discriminatory. The arrests were made on discriminatory

5 grounds, weren't they?

6 A. Yes, yes. Serbs were not being arrested, only Croats and Muslims

7 who had weapons.

8 Q. Likewise, the interrogations in the police station of those people

9 who had been arrested on discriminatory grounds were likewise

10 discriminatory because Serbs were not being interrogated for the same

11 alleged crimes that Muslims and Croats were. Those interrogations were

12 just as discriminatory, weren't they?

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the answer.

14 MR. RE:

15 Q. Could you please repeat your answer to my question about the

16 interrogations following the arrests of Muslims and Croats being just as

17 discriminatory as the reasons for their arrest? You agree with me, don't

18 you, that the interrogations were just as discriminatory as the reasons

19 for arresting only Muslims and Croats, don't you, sir?

20 A. I don't know what they interrogated them about. That's the

21 problem. That's why I can't answer your question. How do I know what

22 they asked them once we brought them in. Once we brought them into the

23 station. I did not bring Serbs into the station. I only brought in

24 Muslims and Croats. How can I know what they talked about to them and

25 what they asked them about? Is this a clear answer?

Page 17562

1 Q. I'm talking about the fact of their interrogation. The fact that

2 they were interrogated in the station as you knew that they were, was a

3 discriminatory basis for interrogating them, wasn't it?

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours. The

5 witness clearly and decidedly said that he did not know what they talked

6 about and what they talked about. He said that he did not bring in Serbs,

7 that he brought in only Muslims and Croats, and he cannot make any

8 distinction between the reasons why Serbs were not being arrested and the

9 reasons why Muslims and Croats were being arrested. After all, the

10 conflict in Bosanski Samac was between the Muslims and Croats on one side

11 and the Serbs on the other side. So they were arresting the enemy, people

12 who were on the enemy side.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, you are not a witness. So that will

14 not be taken into account. The witness can answer the question being put

15 by Mr. Re.

16 MR. RE:

17 Q. You understand the question? It is based only on the fact that

18 they were interrogated, not what was said because you said you weren't

19 there. The fact that non-Serbs were interrogated after their arrest which

20 you have agreed was on discriminatory grounds because they were non-Serbs,

21 the fact of their interrogation itself was discriminatory too, wasn't it?

22 A. Yes, they interrogated only Muslims and Croats.

23 Q. Sir, you were aware in that time you were working in the police

24 station that a terrible system was in place in Bosanski Samac against the

25 non-Serbs, that is of arresting them, detaining them, and beating them.

Page 17563

1 It was a terrible system in place, sir, wasn't it?

2 A. I don't know whether it was a system or not. I told you at the

3 very outset why they were being arrested and what was going on. I said

4 that. It's not that this was something systematic that was being done.

5 As I said to you from the very beginning, people were being brought in.

6 Q. Let's go back a step. You were a police officer who you say was

7 forced to change sides and start working for the Serbs. You've agreed

8 with that. The Serbs had taken control of the town, hadn't they?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Serb military and civilian authorities were in control of Bosanski

11 Samac after the 17th of April, weren't they?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. These military -- these military and civilian authorities were the

14 JNA in the 4th Detachment, the paramilitaries, and the Crisis Staff,

15 correct?

16 A. Samac, as you had put it, was taken by the Serbian police. The

17 Serbian police in particular. And the 4th Detachment on the other hand,

18 there was no army there at the beginning at all. The army had not come in

19 yet. There was only the 4th Detachment and the special police from

20 Serbia. They were the ones who took Samac.

21 Q. Stevan Todorovic was your Chief of Police and you were taking

22 orders from him, weren't you?

23 A. Yes, from the Chief of Police, Stevan Todorovic. But there was a

24 special police from Serbia there that took Samac, and I got my orders from

25 Stevan Todorovic, Chief of Police.

Page 17564

1 Q. When you went with these special police to people's houses to ask

2 them to come to the police station or to answer some questions and you

3 went with -- I'm sorry, when you went to these people's houses you said it

4 was on Todorovic's orders. Todorovic ordered you and the special police

5 to do this, is that what you're saying?

6 A. Todorovic ordered our police patrol, gave orders to our police

7 patrol, and this police patrol was headed by a member of the special

8 police force, and when he saw people, he introduced himself as a member of

9 the special police force that came in from Serbia, that is how he

10 introduced himself and then he would tell people that on the orders of

11 Stevan Todorovic, they were supposed to be brought in. I don't know if

12 I'm being clear. Our patrol consisted of five people, a member of the

13 special police force from Serbia headed the patrol. Then we would take an

14 order from the duty officer, an order issued by Stevan Todorovic, as to

15 whose house we should go to, whose house we should search and who we

16 should bring in.

17 Q. Who was giving orders to the member of the special -- to the

18 Serbian special person who headed these patrols, sir?

19 A. Who gave him orders? The duty officer at the police station.

20 Q. The duty officer who was under Todorovic was giving the whole

21 patrol, that is the Serbian special paramilitary police officer and the

22 members of the Bosanski Samac police, is that what you're saying, all the

23 orders came from Todorovic to the duty officer to all of those on the

24 patrol?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17565

1 Q. The Serbian police officers or the special paramilitaries or

2 whatever you call them, are you saying they were under Todorovic's

3 control, when they worked from the police station?

4 A. The leader of the patrol was under the control of Todorovic, and

5 he went with us -- I mean, he was under Todorovic's orders. Not under his

6 control. The special police did have its own commander but he acted on

7 Todorovic's orders only when he would go out on patrol with us.

8 Q. You know Dr. Blagoje Simic, don't you?

9 A. Yes, I know him.

10 Q. How long have you known him for?

11 A. I know him, he's from Samac. I mean, I've known him all the

12 time. I mean we are the same generation, from Samac. I mean I've known

13 him for as long as he's been in Samac.

14 Q. Is he a friend of yours?

15 A. Well, I can't say that he's a friend of mine. He's an

16 acquaintance. We know each other but we did not socialise. He's not a

17 friend of mine, although we've known each other for a long time.

18 Q. You were aware during the war that he was the President of the

19 Crisis Staff and War Presidency, weren't you?

20 A. Yes, I was aware of that.

21 Q. Did you see him at the SUP when you were working there and if so,

22 how many times?

23 A. No, I did not see him at the SUP. I never saw him at the SUP. I

24 saw him in town a few times, in passing, but it's not that I saw him

25 coming to the SUP, no.

Page 17566

1 Q. What about Mr. Miroslav Tadic? You know him too, don't you?

2 A. Yes, I know Tadic too. He's from Samac too.

3 Q. When you were working at the police station in 1992, did you and

4 if so how many times did you see Mr. Tadic there?

5 A. I never saw him at the police station but I did see him in town

6 often. I often saw him in town.

7 Q. You saw him on exchanges too, didn't you, Mr. Sejdic?

8 A. Yes, I saw him once during an exchange. He was walking around the

9 school yard where the exchange was supposed to start.

10 Q. And what was your role in that exchange, Mr. Sejdic, and when was

11 it?

12 A. Well, that exchange was -- I mean it involved about ten [Realtime

13 transcript read in error "Q."] detainees. One bus or two buses of

14 civilians were going to be exchanged in Croatia in order to reunited with

15 their families. So I was actually escorting that exchange. I mean there

16 had to be a police escort. For their own safety we were supposed to take

17 them to Okucani. I think that's where the exchange was to take place, yes

18 n Okucani, and I read the list, who could board the bus.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just for the sake of the record, it was recorded

20 the answer that the witness gave as a question.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it will be corrected. It continues. It is

22 about ten detainees, one bus --

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. Can you just tell us when that exchange was, to the best of your

25 memory, please?

Page 17567

1 A. I can't remember the month when that exchange took place.

2 Q. You said you attended the exchange in the capacity of escorting

3 people to the exchange place. You were doing that as a police officer,

4 yes or no?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who ordered you to accompany the people on the exchange?

7 A. From the police station. The Chief of Police provided a list and

8 we took the list from the duty officer. We got this patrol order to go

9 and escort these people.

10 Q. How many other exchanges did you and the other police working from

11 the police station participate in, in your official capacity?

12 A. I was in two exchanges.

13 Q. And on each occasion, were you ordered to do so by the duty

14 officer who had got his orders from Stevan Todorovic?

15 A. Yes. That's right.

16 Q. Mr. Zaric has given a statement to this -- to the Office of the

17 Prosecutor which is in evidence here, sir, in which he says between the

18 17th of April, 1992, and the 1st of May, 1992, and that is Exhibit P141,

19 page 5 of the English, where he said, "Now I was going to the SUP for

20 about two or three hours a day, the rest of the time I was in the field

21 and visiting units and carrying out tasks, that I had to do. During that

22 time when I went there --"

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please slow down? The reading

24 is too fast to follow.

25 MR. RE:

Page 17568

1 Q. "During that time when I went there it was to conduct, and this is

2 what I did, interviews with the following people and I did," and he then

3 names people. That's between the 17th of April and the 1st of May, 1992.

4 Zaric said he was going there two or three hours a day. How many times

5 did you see Mr. Zaric from memory -- how many times did you see Mr. Zaric

6 at the SUP - just let me finish - in that period?

7 A. In that period, I saw him two or three times. I saw him come to

8 the police station, two or three times.

9 Q. You said that your -- the police went to the front line with the

10 JNA at one point. Was it the JNA or the VRS?

11 A. It was the Army of Republika Srpska. With its command in

12 Pelagicevo. Oh, no. No. It was the JNA. Can I correct this? Can I

13 make a correction? This is right. It was the JNA that was there. Their

14 tank was there up at Gorice. Before the Army of Republika Srpska was

15 established.

16 Q. Following the takeover on the -- about the 19th of April, you as a

17 police officer, were guarding the waterworks with members of the JNA,

18 weren't you?

19 A. We, the police, guarded the waterworks and the post office. It

20 was only the police that was guarding these facilities, not members of the

21 JNA.

22 Q. In your evidence in chief to Mr. Lazarevic, you spoke -- you told

23 us and you've agreed with me that you knew about the prisoners being

24 detained in the two schools. You performed guard duties at those schools,

25 didn't you, Mr. Sejdic?

Page 17569

1 A. Once I was on guard duty by the gym in the elementary school but

2 throughout this period I was there only once when I was there on guard

3 duty, nobody came to the detainees who were there at the school and nobody

4 beat them, nothing happened.

5 Q. What I want to know, Mr. Sejdic, is who ordered you to go and

6 perform guard duty that night or that day.

7 A. For providing security for the school the waterworks or any

8 facility, there was a schedule that was made by the assistant commander, I

9 think, that was his post, Milan Jekic. He was the person who said who

10 would go to perform guard duties. He was in charge of making the schedule

11 as to who would go to which facility for guard duty.

12 Q. Which authorities were controlling the schools, the detention

13 facilities in the schools? Who was in charge?

14 A. Which authorities you mean? The police, the police.

15 Q. When you say the police, do you mean the Serb police commanded by

16 Stevan Todorovic and including the paramilitaries? Are they the police

17 you're talking about?

18 A. The police whose chief was Stevan Todorovic.

19 Q. Were the paramilitaries also, that is the specials, from Serbia,

20 were they also helping to control the school, the detainees in the

21 schools?

22 A. Well, they were there, they did not assist. They were not

23 helping. I mean we were the ones who were guarding the school.

24 Q. What were the paramilitaries or the Serbian specials doing when

25 you were there guarding -- when you, that is the police, were guarding the

Page 17570

1 schools?

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one small intervention in the transcript on

3 page 49, line 6, the witness actually answered they were together with us

4 in the same building, meaning the SUP building. This part of the answer

5 was not recorded.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: M'hm. Yes, perhaps the witness can be asked to

7 repeat his answer.

8 MR. RE:

9 Q. Mr. Sejdic what I'm asking you is I want to know, I want the Trial

10 Chamber to know, who was guarding the detention facilities, the two

11 schools, the SUP and the TO. You've said the police were there on a

12 roster or a schedule. I want to know about the involvement of the people

13 from Serbia, the special police or paramilitaries or whatever you call

14 them. What was their involvement in guarding or controlling these four

15 facilities, as briefly, as you can, please.

16 A. The police provided security there. The police. The Serb

17 police. That is to say that this special police, if I can call it that,

18 could enter whenever they wanted to. Although we guards were there, that

19 is the kind of powers they had. It's not powers. They could walk in

20 whenever they wanted to, into any room.

21 Q. And when you were guarding these facilities, did you let the Serb

22 special police in?

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: We already have the answer to that. A minute

24 ago. When he was asked --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes.

Page 17571

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: And furthermore, I would like to know whether some

2 frames -- timeframes are also applied to the Prosecution.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, they do.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Because it's been more than 45 minutes that they

5 are posing questions.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, they do.

7 MR. RE: Your Honour, can I just say --

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 MR. RE: Your Honour, can I just say this? For the Prosecution

10 point this is the first witness -- almost in the category of an insider

11 witness, to come here to give evidence of -- besides Todorovic whose

12 evidence really needs corroboration to give evidence of inside workings.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, no. There are no rules on corroboration

14 in this Tribunal.

15 MR. RE: But in terms of the final submission he is the first

16 witness.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re, wind up.

18 MR. RE: I will wind up, I don't need much longer.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Just winds up.

20 MR. RE: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 MR. RE:

23 Q. Sir, these arrests or visits to people's houses to ask them to

24 come to the police station continued throughout 1992, didn't they?

25 A. No. This -- in 1992 but I don't know until when, for the first

Page 17572

1 ten or 15 days. It lasted until May or thereabouts, late April, early

2 May, the first 20 days. That's the police did those searches for the

3 first ten or 15 days in the town of Samac, when we brought persons in like

4 I said.

5 Q. I'm talking about not just the searches but taking people to the

6 police station for interrogation. That continued throughout 1992 against

7 Muslims and Croats, didn't it? It didn't end after the first ten to 15

8 days, did it?

9 A. What I'm telling you is that I worked for ten or 15 days on those

10 jobs. Now as for later, when they were brought in and how many of them

11 were brought in, I really don't know because I was no longer on the same

12 job.

13 MR. RE: Could we go into private session for a moment, please?

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17573

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 17573 redacted private session

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 17574

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

11 MR. RE:

12 Q. You knew that people were being isolated in Zasavica on the orders

13 of Todorovic, that is Croats and Muslims, didn't you?

14 A. Yes, yes, I did know.

15 Q. And that people were being taken there against their will to be

16 isolated, kept separate from the community. You knew that, didn't you?

17 A. Yes. I knew that they were taking them there on the chief's

18 orders.

19 Q. Please don't answer that. This is the problem I alerted Your

20 Honours to yesterday in relation to the witness's evidence, with that

21 knowledge what he did.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re, you have to wind up. The Trial Chamber is

23 very much aware of the answers the witness is giving.

24 MR. RE: The difficulty is what's on the transcript and the

25 protection for the witness, Your Honour. That's why I specifically raised

Page 17575

1 that issue.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can you just wind up? The Trial Chamber is

3 very much aware of your concerns, Mr. Re.

4 MR. RE: If the Court pleases. I have nothing further, Your

5 Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination Mr. Lazarevic?

7 Re-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

8 Q. Let us just briefly dwell on a number of answers that you gave to

9 my colleague from the Prosecution. In connection with a certain system,

10 which the Prosecutor referred to during cross-examination, they put it to

11 you that there was a system according to which people were beaten,

12 tortured and arrested. Are you aware of the existence of any system at

13 all there?

14 A. No. I was not aware of the existence of any system. When they

15 said systematically, I don't know that people were systematically beaten.

16 Q. That's precisely what I want to learn about. What do you know

17 about the beatings of people and the torture of people? Did they unfold

18 according to a certain pattern, a system, or was it really down to

19 personal decisions taken by individual police officers or specials or

20 Stevan Todorovic to beat any of the prisoners?

21 A. As far as I know, every time they got drunk, they walk about town,

22 nab someone and beat them and the same thing happened at the police

23 station. They beat whoever they liked and whenever they liked.

24 Q. Thank you very much. I think we've dwelt for long enough on this

25 topic. While putting their case to you, as they said, the Prosecutor

Page 17576

1 suggested that the people who were being brought into the SUP building for

2 questioning had been beaten before they were interviewed. That's their

3 chronology. Do you know this for a fact or rather do you know anything

4 about that, about people being beaten, whatever you know about people

5 being beaten? You've already answered but was that to the best of your

6 knowledge related to any further statements that were made?

7 A. I said they beat whoever they liked. That's why there was --

8 before the statement and after the statement and they beat whoever they

9 brought in and they beat up the two Serbs who had been detained as well.

10 And a number of other people too.

11 Q. You were asked by the Prosecutor a number of questions related to

12 the Serbs arming themselves prior to the conflict. And among other

13 things, you referred to the 4th Detachment in your answer. The 4th

14 Detachment, was it armed by the JNA?

15 A. Yes. I do know that it was armed by the JNA.

16 Q. In or about January or February, 1992, the JNA was the army of

17 Yugoslavia, isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Bosnia and Herzegovina was part of Yugoslavia then, isn't that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the weapons that people from the 4th Detachment obtained had

23 been provided by the regular army of an existing state; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So far, in this trial, we have had evidence that there were quite

Page 17577

1 a number of Muslims who were members of the 4th Detachment also. Were

2 they too given weapons by the JNA?

3 MR. RE: Your Honour, I do object now. My questions were directed

4 at the parties arming themselves. I didn't ask about the JNA or the 4th

5 Detachment arming itself. It seems to be going way beyond

6 cross-examination.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: If I remember correctly, it was the Serbs arm

8 themselves. It wasn't a question of whether SDS armed their members. The

9 question was did Serbs arm themselves.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, some of the time, yes, you simply said Serbs

11 Mr. Re.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: But any way I won't elaborate this topic any

13 more.

14 Q. [Interpretation] My colleague from the Prosecution asked you

15 about -- my apologies. I still don't have your answer to my previous

16 question. It has not been recorded. Were there Muslims too who were

17 given weapons as members of the 4th Detachment by the JNA?

18 A. Yes, yes. There were quite a number of Muslims there too, fewer

19 Croats but there were both Muslims and Croats who were in the 4th

20 Detachment who were given weapons.

21 Q. Thank you very much. The Prosecutor asked you questions about the

22 statements and people being interviewed at the police station. I know

23 because you told us that you were not present there yourself, and that you

24 are not aware of the contents of those statements given by those who were

25 interviewed. What I want to know is who was at the police station, who

Page 17578

1 took the statements from those persons, who were the police inspectors

2 initially?

3 A. The police inspectors at that time were Rados Sarkanovic, his boss

4 was Milos Simic, the two of them.

5 Q. You said Milos Simic. I think the last name was Savic, actually?

6 A. Yes, yes, Milos Savic, that's who I meant.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Do you perhaps know that the specials,

8 members of the Special Forces from Serbia, as you called them, also

9 sometimes interviewed persons of their own initiative?

10 A. I didn't know about that.

11 Q. Mr. Re asked you about seeing Mr. Zaric at the police station and

12 your answer was that you saw him perhaps three times during that period,

13 if I remember correctly, first of all let me ask you: You've told us

14 already but did you spend most of your time at the station or rather

15 elsewhere in the field?

16 A. I spent most of my time outside in the field. I would only come

17 to the station briefly and I only saw Simo in passing, perhaps two or

18 three times like I said.

19 Q. So the two or three times you did see Simo Zaric, what sort of

20 uniform was he wearing? Police or military? That's my question. It's a

21 simple one too.

22 A. I've understood your question. He was wearing camouflage,

23 military uniform

24 [Defence counsel confer]

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 17579

1 Q. In one of your answers to the Prosecutor, you referred to the 4th

2 Detachment in Bosanski Samac. Can you please just confirm the following,

3 namely that the 4th Detachment was deployed along the embankment in

4 Bosanski Samac?

5 A. Yes, yes. I can confirm that. Along the embankment facing the

6 River Bosna, from the side of Prud.

7 Q. Did you personally see this?

8 A. Yes, yes, I did, personally.

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That wasn't raised in cross-examination, anything

10 about the embankment.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, I'm aware that it wasn't. It wasn't raised

12 by the -- in questions of my learned colleague but it was raised by the

13 witness in his answer but any way, I have no further questions for this

14 witness.

15 MR. RE: Your Honours, I apologise for this. There was one

16 question I forgot to ask which I should have put to the witness under Rule

17 90(H) in relation to the Prosecution's case of Mr. Bobic. Could I have

18 leave to put this one question to him and of course Mr. Lazarevic could

19 answer anything -- I anticipate it's going to be a very short answer. I

20 just have to put a proposition to the witness while he's here.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.

22 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Sejdic I just have one question and that is, I want to suggest

24 to you that on or about the 17th of April, 1992, Mr. Bobic --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you give the full name, please?

Page 17580

1 MR. RE:

2 Q. Sorry, Mr. Kemal Bobic was told by Bosanski Samac police that he

3 had to report to the police station twice a day and not leave the house.

4 He had to report twice a day either by phone or in person. I want to

5 suggest that he asked you who had ordered this and you told him that it

6 was Simo Zaric.

7 A. No. No. I did not talk to Bobic about that at all. I don't even

8 know that he had to report twice every day to the police. He probably

9 reported to the duty officers, not to us, the police officers, who were

10 patrolling the town. He would go to the duty officer. I was not in touch

11 with him at all.

12 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honours for your leave.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have no redirect on this question.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, there wouldn't be any, I think.

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I just have two questions to ask. On line --

17 page 21, lines 19 to 21, Mr. Sejdic, you are responding to a question

18 posed by Mr. Lazarevic, and this also concerned the arrest of Mr. Kemal

19 Bobic, and in connection with that, you say, "So we never had anything to

20 do with Simo Zaric in that respect, in terms of bringing persons in, in

21 terms of searching people's flats." So my question is: In what respect

22 did you have something to do with Mr. Zaric?

23 A. In terms of giving orders, if he'd had the -- he did not have the

24 authority -- can you please repeat the question?

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes, certainly. You were asked by Mr. Lazarevic,

Page 17581

1 this is page 22, line 14, Mr. Lazarevic says to you, "Did Simo Zaric ever

2 tell you or give you any orders to arrest anyone?" And then your answer

3 is, "No, Simo Zaric was not the one who gave us orders and he never gave

4 us orders and never told us to do anything." And then I'll miss out the

5 next line to do with Mr. Todorovic. And then you go on to say, "So we

6 never had anything to do with Simo Zaric in that respect, in terms of

7 bringing persons in, in terms of searching people's flats." Now, I'm

8 interested in those three words, "In that respect." The implication is

9 there were other matters, other than bringing persons in and searching

10 people's flats, that you did have an involvement with Mr. Zaric. And I

11 would just like you to explain what that was.

12 A. When I said that we didn't -- that we never had anything with Simo

13 Zaric, I meant that he was never our commander. We had our own command,

14 the police. Our own chief who gave us orders, Savo Cancarevic. It was in

15 that sense that I said that we never had anything to do with Simo Zaric.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So you never had anything to do with Simo Zaric

17 at all? Am I understanding you correctly?

18 A. Yes, yes, precisely. Nothing to do whatsoever with Simo Zaric.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And my second question relates to answers to a

20 question posed by Mr. Lazarevic on page 30, lines -- well, line 13

21 actually. You were being asked as to the collection of -- well, going to

22 people's houses, and you were asked whether persons had a choice about

23 whether they went with you or stayed behind. And your answer on line 13

24 is, "They did have a choice. They did not have to go with us." So

25 Mr. Sejdic, my question to you is: If somebody said, "I don't want to go

Page 17582

1 with you," what would have happened to him or her? Did you have orders in

2 that respect if somebody said, "No, I don't want to go to the SUP"?

3 A. There was no need for the person to follow us back to the SUP.

4 The person didn't have to. We wouldn't force the person to go. But if we

5 found a Kalashnikov in the person's flat or any other weapon, he had to

6 follow us back to the station. Then he was not in a position to refuse.

7 There would be -- we would take other steps, we would bring the person in

8 to the police station, so that was not something a person could refuse if

9 a weapon was found in the person's flat. If there was nothing, for

10 example, then the person was free to say there is no need for me to go.

11 In fact we would never ask such a person to go. That's what I tried to

12 say.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Yes, Mr. Sejdic, I have a couple of questions.

15 You told us that your patrol searched the flat of Jelena Kapetanovic. Did

16 that happen once or twice?

17 A. Only once.

18 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Only once. Okay. Do you remember the persons

19 present during that search of her flat? Were there, for instance, any

20 members of the 4th Detachment present at that time?

21 A. When we searched flats, there were no members around. It was our

22 police patrol.

23 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Well, then you told us that you had a Kalashnikov

24 in your possession. Was that the personal weapon of all policemen?

25 A. Yes, yes, personal weapon, my own. My own personal weapon, yes,

Page 17583

1 all policemen had Kalashnikovs as personal weapons, officially issued

2 weapons. And a pistol, too, a hand gun. And a truncheon too.

3 JUDGE LINDHOLM: You didn't go to the police station on the 16th,

4 nor on the 17th of April. Were you off duty or what was the reason that

5 you didn't go to the -- your place of work?

6 A. On the 16th and on the 17th, I had days off. On the 18th I was

7 supposed to start work at 6.00 in the morning and that's why I called on

8 the phone on the 16th in the morning. I called the duty officer and on

9 the 17th too I just wanted to know whether I would be required to go to

10 work or not.

11 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you. No further questions.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just to follow up with one short question,

13 Mr. Sejdic, following from Judge Lindholm's question as to the visit to

14 the apartment of Mrs. Jelena Kapetanovic, do you recall when that was?

15 A. I can't remember the exact date.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Would you recall whether it was after she

17 had been brought back from a period of detention or isolation in Crkvina?

18 A. I don't remember, but first we carried out the search and then

19 after that, she was taken into isolation. Before the search. But when

20 she came back from detention, I really can't remember.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes, I was talking about her stay in Crkvina, not

22 her isolation in Zasavica. Does that -- do you have any knowledge about

23 Crkvina and whether this visit by yourself and your patrol was before or

24 after that?

25 A. I know nothing about Crkvina or when she was there.

Page 17584

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much for giving evidence. We are

3 through now. You may leave the courtroom.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the next witness, please?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Re please.

8 MR. RE: Sorry, I'll start again. While the witness is coming in

9 may I tender into evidence a portion of Kemal Bobic's statement only on

10 the issue of credibility of the last witness, which Mr. Pisarevic got from

11 Mr. Bobic as being a true and correct statement? That was the matter I

12 put to the witness at the very end, and it's only a portion of a statement

13 dated the 3rd of April, 1998, between the Prosecutor and Kemal Bobic. One

14 paragraph of it.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: I object. I object to this. First of all, if

16 Mr. Re had some document to put before this witness, he shouldn't have

17 waited for the witness to leave and then try to put it on the back door

18 here in evidence. Just to show him, to say this is this and give him to

19 read that and give his comment. And then if -- and then he should have

20 asked for admission of this document into evidence.

21 MR. RE: I did both. I read to him the extract and now I'm asking

22 to put it into evidence. I didn't do it while the witness was here

23 because I wanted to do it while someone else was being brought in which

24 I thought it was the most appropriate time to save time. It's no secret.

25 It's a document which the Defence have had for years.

Page 17585

1 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber will give its ruling later. Can

2 we have the witness, please?

3 MR. RE: Could it be given an ID number for the moment, then, Your

4 Honours?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: No.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber has just been informed that

9 the witness may require the assistance of an official from the Victims and

10 Witnesses Unit for purposes of making the solemn declaration. That's why

11 we have her here. So can the witness make the solemn declaration, please?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 WITNESS: ANDRIJA PETRIC

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much for your assistance. Who is

19 examining the witness? Mr. Pisarevic?

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

21 Examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Petric.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. Are you all right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17586

1 Q. You feel all right?

2 A. Super.

3 Q. Even before you came here, we discussed the way in which your

4 testimony would take place. So please, in line with what we said, could

5 you please speak slowly? Could you pause? If there is anything that's

6 not clear to you, please ask again, just make sure that I know about it.

7 A. Very well.

8 Q. Could you please now state before this honourable Trial Chamber

9 your name and surname?

10 A. Andrija Petric.

11 Q. When were you born?

12 A. I was born on the 13th of July, 1962.

13 Q. Could you tell us where you were born?

14 A. I was born in a village called Gornji Hasic.

15 Q. This village of Gornji Hasic, is it in the municipality of

16 Bosanski Samac?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. What kind of school have you completed?

19 A. I have completed a school for telephone operators.

20 Q. Is that a special school?

21 A. Yes. It's a special school for disabled persons only.

22 Q. So what do you do now?

23 A. I am a telephone operator.

24 Q. Tell me, please, what is your ethnic background?

25 A. I'm an ethnic Croat.

Page 17587

1 Q. Where did you live or rather since when have you been living in

2 Bosanski Samac?

3 A. I've been living in Bosanski Samac since 1984.

4 Q. Do you live in Bosanski Samac until the present day?

5 A. Until the present day.

6 Q. Are you married?

7 A. Yes, I am married, and I have two children, and there is my wife,

8 too.

9 Q. Before the hostilities broke out, that is to say the 17th of

10 April, 1992, were you employed?

11 A. I was employed at the municipal assembly of Samac all the way up

12 to 1992, until the conflict broke out.

13 Q. Did you spend the entire war in Bosanski Samac?

14 A. Yes, the entire time.

15 Q. Before the conflict broke out, on the territory of Bosanski Samac,

16 the municipality of Bosanski Samac, did you know about the existence of

17 the 4th Detachment of the Yugoslav People's Army in Bosanski Samac?

18 A. Yes, I did know.

19 Q. Can you tell us how come you became aware of the fact that the 4th

20 Detachment of the Yugoslav People's Army existed in Bosanski Samac?

21 A. The 4th Detachment was not a secret, because all citizens were

22 represented on this detachment, Muslims, Croats and Serbs.

23 Q. Did you perhaps learn of this fact through the media?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm just hoping you're not continuing on the 4th

Page 17588

1 Detachment, because -- there is a problem.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: It looks like we have some technical difficulties.

3 I will try to resolve this.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there was some

5 technical problem with the ear phones. I'm sorry, I really didn't hear

6 anything.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I was just about to say that I hope you're not

8 continuing with the 4th Detachment. The Trial Chamber feels that it has

9 received sufficient evidence about its existence, unless there is

10 something extraordinary which has not been covered.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I'm not going

12 to talk about the 4th Detachment at all. I just wished to put one more

13 question in this connection, and I think it has to do with the interests

14 of Mr. Zaric as one of the accused here.

15 Q. Were you in a position to hear Mr. Zaric on radio Samac in a

16 programme together with Radovan Antic and it had to do with the tasks of

17 the 4th Detachment?

18 A. Yes, I listened to Radio Bosanski Samac and I heard then that the

19 objective of the establishment of the 4th Detachment was only related to

20 the breaking out of a conflict between the citizens of Bosanski Samac.

21 They were calling for peace, tolerance and mutual understanding and so on.

22 Q. Were they advocating the prevention of interethnic conflict?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. Tell me, where were you during the night between the 16th and 17th

25 of April, 1992?

Page 17589

1 A. Between the 16th and the 17th, I was in my apartment that evening.

2 Q. During the night, did you hear anything as you were there with

3 your family in your apartment?

4 A. Strong gunfire was heard and afterwards, a few explosions, and

5 then nothing else was heard.

6 Q. Did you remain in your apartment that morning?

7 A. I remained in my apartment until the morning. I did not go out

8 anywhere because I had heard from my neighbours that war had started and

9 that people should not go out.

10 Q. Did you go to work on that day?

11 A. Not to work, for reasons related to my personal safety, because I

12 had already heard that the municipal assembly had already been taken by

13 the paramilitary forces, the specials, as we call them.

14 Q. Thank you. So the building of the municipal assembly where you

15 worked, you heard that it was taken by these paramilitary forces, very

16 well, thank you. Did you hear that a curfew had been imposed in the town

17 of Samac?

18 A. I heard about that. It was between 10.00 p.m. until the morning

19 so at that time we didn't go out anywhere.

20 Q. Since you lived in town, did you or any of your friends or

21 neighbours or relatives carry some kind of white ribbons? Were you

22 ordered to wear white ribbons in the town of Samac?

23 A. I personally did not wear one and I did not observe -- I mean I

24 and none of the members of my family wore a white ribbon.

25 Q. Did you hear that someone had ordered white ribbons to be worn?

Page 17590

1 A. No, I didn't hear of any such thing.

2 Q. I'm being told now that something was not entered properly in the

3 transcript. Did you say that you could not observe?

4 A. I said I could not observe.

5 Q. Oh, you could not observe. Very well, thank you. At that time,

6 was the town of Bosanski Samac shelled?

7 A. Yes. Already at that time, frequent shelling started, living

8 conditions in town had already become difficult, there was no power,

9 water, supplies were increasingly difficult, so that was the situation as

10 it was. It was hard.

11 Q. At that time, that is to say from the 17th of April, 1992, and

12 during the course of 1992, were you ever called up for any kind of work

13 obligation?

14 A. I was never called up for any work obligation. I was not and none

15 of my family members were.

16 Q. Do you remember and could you please tell the Trial Chamber when

17 and where were you arrested by the police?

18 A. On the 15th of May, sometime in the morning, the police came to my

19 door, to the stairwell, since it was locked downstairs my wife went

20 downstairs, she opened the door and they asked, "Is Andrija there?" And I

21 said I was there. They told me or rather he said to me that I should come

22 with him. And when I went downstairs, I asked where are you taking me and

23 what for? But I did not get an answer to that question. He just shrugged

24 his shoulders, just like that.

25 Q. You didn't receive an answer and where did they eventually take

Page 17591

1 you?

2 A. We walked as far as the department store. There was a lorry

3 waiting there with people who were standing there. I don't know how many

4 people exactly but not too many at that point.

5 Q. How long did you stand there for?

6 A. Well, it's difficult to remember in terms of time but not too long

7 any way. There were about 20 of us. We boarded the lorry and they took

8 us towards Crkvina.

9 Q. Can you just pause please for a minute?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Just a very brief matter if Your Honours please.

12 It would be wise, I think, for Mr. Pisarevic and of assistance to the

13 Chamber for you to understand this witness's evidence for you to be clear

14 on whether he suffered from his disability back in April of 1992. I

15 rather assume he did but it's not entirely clear and I think it's

16 important for you just so that you can understand his evidence and more

17 clearly. So I respectfully suggest that we just very briefly clarify

18 that.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic?

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly. We'll clarify

21 that although I think we've answered that question. He said he completed

22 special training for disabled persons but we'll go back to that.

23 Q. Mr. Petric please tell us since when have you been --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic now that you've reminded us that he

25 actually said so, there is no need.

Page 17592

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours. Thank

2 you.

3 Q. So they put you on to that lorry and took you where?

4 A. To Crkvina. We arrived there about 20 of us, we got off the

5 bus -- got off the lorry one by one to a place where the police were

6 waiting for us, and they took down our names one by one, and then we, all

7 of us, went to the football pitch in Crkvina.

8 Q. Very well. Let's pause a minute to clarify a number of issues.

9 As you were standing outside the department store where the lorry was

10 waiting, did anyone guard you? If so, who?

11 A. Yes. There was a policeman there standing with us.

12 Q. Those people who were taken together with you to Crkvina, what was

13 their ethnic background?

14 A. All of them were Croats.

15 Q. When you reached Crkvina, did anyone take your names down?

16 A. When we arrived in Crkvina, they took our names down. I've said

17 that before.

18 Q. Who was it that took your names?

19 A. The police did.

20 Q. While you were there on the football pitch in Crkvina, who was

21 providing security?

22 A. I don't know but I know that it was the police who took our names

23 and then we went to the football stadium and we were there. I don't know

24 who exactly was there because I couldn't see.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. When you came to the stadium, were there

Page 17593

1 people there already?

2 A. When I came to the stadium, I found there many women, children and

3 men but all of them civilians.

4 Q. How long did you stay inside the stadium?

5 A. I stayed almost until it got dark.

6 Q. What happened at dusk?

7 A. The same group, the 20 of us, they called us back to the lorry and

8 we went to Samac.

9 Q. If I understand you correctly you're talking about the same 20

10 people who had been taken from Samac to Crkvina?

11 A. Yes. I think so.

12 Q. Where were you then taken to and who took you there?

13 A. We were taken back to Samac, to the gym of the secondary school

14 building, and the police again were waiting for us there, taking our names

15 again, and they stripped us of everything we had, any sharp objects. We

16 had to leave it there and then we went to the hall.

17 Q. It is the gym of the secondary school you're talking about, right?

18 A. Yes, yes, the gym, and we were the first group who got in.

19 Q. When you arrived there, and when the policemen took your shoe

20 laces, any sharp objects you had on you, did you find any one there

21 already in that gym?

22 A. No, no. There was no one. We were the first group to get in.

23 Q. So you were the first to get in?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What happened then? Did you remain there on your own or did other

Page 17594

1 people start arriving?

2 A. The following day or two days later, I can't remember, but many

3 people started coming in, and after a while, the gym was full of people.

4 It was really crowded.

5 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, if you know, where were those people

6 coming from, the people who were being brought into the gym of the

7 secondary school?

8 A. Those were people from Zasavica itself, Gornji and Donji Hasici,

9 from Samac itself, and I don't know about the rest.

10 Q. Did you know those people?

11 A. Some of them, I did know, yes. Quite a number of them actually.

12 Q. How long did you stay there?

13 A. I stayed for 11 days.

14 Q. You stayed for 11 days in the gym of the secondary school in

15 Bosanski Samac?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe this is a

18 convenient time for a break, and then we can continue later on.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will continue at 1250 hours.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic?

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Petric, can we proceed, please?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 17595

1 Q. Thank you. During the 11 days you spent in the gym of the

2 secondary school, did your wife or any of your family try to have you

3 released?

4 A. Yes. My wife went to the municipal assembly because I used to

5 work there, to try to have me released through those people there, and she

6 went to the SUP as well but to no avail.

7 Q. This means she went to the police. Do you know who she spoke to

8 there?

9 A. I don't know exactly. Probably Mr. Stiv.

10 Q. When you say Stiv --

11 A. Yes, I mean Stiv Todorovic.

12 Q. Very well. Thank you. While you were there, did your wife manage

13 to bring you food, clean underwear, that kind of thing?

14 A. My wife tried, not every day, but almost every day, and almost

15 every day she managed to bring some food, although we only received food

16 there once a day.

17 Q. Did anyone maltreat you personally in any way while you were

18 there?

19 A. No, no one abused or maltreated me but they were maltreating some

20 other people there.

21 Q. When you said that some other people were maltreated, can you say

22 who it was that maltreated the prisoners there?

23 A. For the most part, people in camouflage uniforms would come

24 barging in, specials as we called them. Personally I was never beaten.

25 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, what happened on the 11th or rather

Page 17596

1 12th day of your stay there? Did anyone call your name out?

2 A. On that day, on the 26th of May, about, I believe, 10.00 or 11.00

3 in the morning, people came whether from the police or one of the guards,

4 because they were all police for me, and they called out about a hundred

5 names and asked us to stay in the hallway of the secondary school

6 building. They told us that we had to make our choice, because the

7 International Red Cross would soon be there and we should tell them

8 whether we wished to be exchanged or not.

9 Q. Very well. When your name was called out, when you came to the

10 hallway, you were no longer in the gym?

11 A. No, no, I wasn't.

12 Q. The police or rather the policemen who called out the names, did

13 you have an opportunity to meet or to talk to the representatives of the

14 International Red Cross?

15 A. All of us who were lined up in the hall, we went one by one, and

16 the others remained, some sat down and spoke softly. It was done on an

17 individual basis. There was a translator helping us translating our

18 statements. Personally I said that I did not wish to be exchanged because

19 I had my wife back at home and a small child.

20 Q. Very well. Can you tell us, please, this person from the

21 International Red Cross, was it a man or a woman?

22 A. I think it was a lady and the translator was a man.

23 Q. Thank you. So you told them you did not wish to be exchanged?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What about all the remaining 99 persons who were there? Did they

Page 17597

1 also say whether they wished to go or not to the representatives of the

2 International Red Cross?

3 A. Yes. All of them, and after about half an hour, those of us whose

4 names had been called out, all hundred of us, there were two lorries

5 waiting outside and we boarded the two lorries, all of us.

6 Q. Very well. So you boarded those lorries and where were you taken

7 to?

8 A. To a village called Zasavica.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you. When you came to the village of Zasavica,

10 what happened there? Where did you stop? Were you still in those

11 lorries? What did they explain to you as to what the procedure would be

12 for the exchange?

13 A. The lorries pulled over. We got off the lorries. They called out

14 our first and last names and they told us that as soon as there was a

15 group of six people, that we should go six by six in groups of six, to the

16 boat, because that was the only way it could be done.

17 Q. You refer to the boat now. What this means, if I understand you

18 correctly is that the exchange was supposed to take place across the

19 river?

20 A. Yes, precisely, across the River Bosna.

21 Q. So was your name called out too as part of this group of six

22 people for the exchange?

23 A. Yes, yes, I was called out too. There were six of us at one point

24 we were standing about 20 metres from the lorry, I saw a group of people

25 who were standing there, and I recognised Simo Zaric's voice.

Page 17598

1 Q. Very well. Let us pause a minute here. How many people were in

2 that group? And could you tell if they were civilians or some other

3 people?

4 A. I don't know how many people were there. I was quite agitated. I

5 can't remember how many people were there at that moment but I do think

6 they were civilians. I approached Simo then because I had recognised his

7 voice and I told him that I did not wish to be exchanged.

8 Q. So you told Mr. Zaric that you did not wish to be exchanged?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What did Mr. Zaric tell you then?

11 A. He told me: Andrija, at this moment there is no way for me to

12 help you. Because I came myself to meet my family from Trnjak and Dubica

13 coming this way. The only thing I can do for you is to tell you that I

14 didn't know that they could return with the International Red Cross and

15 that I should say the same.

16 Q. So while you were in the lorry, when you set out towards the River

17 Bosna, you didn't know that on the river bank where the exchange was

18 taking place, there were representatives of the International Red Cross

19 present too?

20 A. No, I didn't know. No one informed me.

21 Q. You heard Mr. Zaric's voice. You approached him and spoke to him

22 and Mr. Zaric told you that there was nothing he could do to help you, but

23 he advised you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And he told you that on the river bank of the River Bosna there

Page 17599

1 were representatives of the International Red Cross and that you should

2 speak to them about help, ask them to help you and tell them that you did

3 not wish to be exchanged?

4 A. Yes, that's precisely how it was.

5 Q. So you continued on with the group towards the River Bosna?

6 A. Yes. There were six of us. We reached the river bank, and that's

7 when I saw people in white coats. I walked up to them and I asked them

8 whether there was anyone there from the International Red Cross.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you. Did you recognise any of those people

10 wearing white coats on the river bank?

11 A. Yes, I recognised Mr. Veljo Maslic and they asked me is there was

12 anything you need? And I said that I did not wish to be exchanged and

13 then someone translated this for them and they said what did you say and

14 then it was translated and they said fine they understood what I said so

15 they took me aside.

16 Q. Very well. So you came there, you recognised Veljo Maslic, you

17 spoke to this group of people there, asking them whether there was anyone

18 there from the International Red Cross?

19 A. Yes, precisely.

20 Q. You spoke to them and you told them that you did not wish to be

21 exchanged?

22 A. They wanted to know the reason, and I said again that my wife was

23 back at home, and that we had a small child too.

24 Q. Was there anyone translating what did you say?

25 A. Yes, there was a translator. They understood and they told me I

Page 17600

1 should step aside.

2 Q. This person who told you that they had understood that you did not

3 wish to be exchanged, was that a man or a woman?

4 A. I can't remember right now, what the gender was of the person

5 there. I was really very excited and I really wanted to go back.

6 Q. And you were told to --

7 A. To step aside, yes.

8 Q. At that moment, was anyone else told to step aside or were you the

9 first person who left the group or the groups before yours?

10 A. I was among the first because I insisted on that. I was adamant.

11 There were other groups of six people, people would pass by and ask me

12 what are you waiting for here and I said well, I'm here because I refused

13 to be exchanged. There were eight other persons who stepped aside from

14 the group and stayed with me where I was standing.

15 Q. So those eight persons also said on the spot that they did not

16 wish to be exchanged?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. What happened when the exchange was finally completed? Did anyone

19 from the other -- from the opposite side of the River Bosna call upon

20 you to change your minds? Tell us about what happened?

21 A. When the exchange was completed on the other side of the River

22 Bosna, there were nine persons, nine of us, standing there, myself and

23 eight other persons, people were shouting from the other side of the river

24 that we should think twice that we should change our minds, and agree to

25 be exchanged. They shouted over to us and wanted us to stand separately

Page 17601

1 so that they could see us, but to no avail. They were not successful and

2 then the last thing they shouted over to us is "May you all die."

3 Q. Were they verbally abusing you or cursing you because you refused

4 to cross to the other side?

5 A. I suppose they were shouting in anger.

6 Q. Can you please tell us who was on the other side of the River

7 Bosna, across the River Bosna?

8 A. There were Croats, Croats only, standing on the opposite river

9 bank, the two warring sides, one side on one river bank and the other side

10 on the other.

11 Q. There were Croats leaving from this side of the river. Who was

12 arriving from the other -- from the opposite side, from the opposite river

13 bank, from Odzak?

14 A. Arriving from the opposite side, from the direction of Odzak, were

15 Serbs who had been detained in Odzak, in prisons in Odzak.

16 Q. Did any of the nine persons standing there change their minds?

17 Did anyone finally agree to be exchanged?

18 A. No, no one changed their minds, everyone remained there.

19 Q. When the exchange was completed, what happened to you next?

20 A. When the exchange was completed, we got back on to the lorry and

21 went back to Samac, to a company, I think the name was Tekstilac. We all

22 got off the lorries there and each of us went home.

23 Q. So the same lorries that had taken you away brought you back to

24 the Tekstilac factory and after that you all went home, is that what you

25 said?

Page 17602

1 A. Yes, I'm positive about myself. I went home. I don't know where

2 the others went but I certainly went home.

3 Q. What did you do next when you came home?

4 A. The next day, I went to a village to see my father-in-law. I

5 spent sometime there. Only because of the conditions in Bosanski Samac,

6 the living conditions in Bosanski Samac.

7 Q. When did you eventually return to live, to reside in Bosanski

8 Samac, in your flat?

9 A. I returned as soon as the situation was a bit more stable, as soon

10 as the conditions in the town improved. That's when I returned. And I am

11 still there.

12 Q. Your flat, the one you returned to, where is it? Is it in the

13 centre of town?

14 A. My flat is plum in the centre of town, in the pedestrian zone,

15 that's how we call it. It was hit by a shell.

16 Q. When your flat was hit by a shell, like other flats there, were

17 any of the people living in that building killed on that occasion, in your

18 building?

19 A. Yes. The building was destroyed, the building collapsed, there

20 were casualties. One person was killed and some people were disabled.

21 Q. The transcript says that the whole building collapsed. As far as

22 I understood only some of the floors caved in?

23 A. Yes, some of the floors caved in, not the entire building.

24 Q. Your flat was so damaged in fact that you could no longer stay

25 inside the flat?

Page 17603

1 A. Yes. The flat was damaged to the extent that I could no longer

2 live there, and I was allocated some overt accommodation, temporary

3 accommodation of course.

4 Q. So your flat was damaged and you had to speak to the authorities,

5 to the municipal authorities to provide some other accommodation for you.

6 So did you go there and speak to them?

7 A. Yes, and I was awarded temporary accommodation. I obtained a

8 certificate that I could use on a temporary basis a flat that had been

9 abandoned by Ibrahim, I can't remember his last name, but it was only

10 a temporary thing.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, your time?

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Just another minute, Your Honours,

13 please, if I may.

14 Q. So the municipal assembly or rather a body of the municipal

15 assembly issued you with a certificate on temporary accommodation in an

16 abandoned flat?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You said it was Ibrahim's flat. Wasn't it Ibrahim Salkic, known

19 as Ibela?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you stayed there until when?

22 A. Until I managed to mend my flat, to carry out all the reparations

23 and everything and then I returned to my flat.

24 Q. You still reside there, don't you?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 17604

1 Q. After the arrest in May, during your entire stay, did anyone bring

2 you in, arrest you or interview you?

3 A. No. I was never again brought in or interviewed or arrested or

4 interrogated by anyone.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

6 examination, thank you very much.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel?

8 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, just one question.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Petric, my name is Pantelic I defend Blagoje

11 Simic before this Tribunal. My learned friend and colleague Pisarevic

12 asked you or rather you told him that you went to see your father-in-law

13 because the living conditions there were better than those in Samac. When

14 you said better living conditions, did you mean to say that the conditions

15 in Samac were poor because there was no electricity, water, because there

16 had been shelling? Is that what you were referring to? Is that why you

17 went to stay temporarily with your father-in-law?

18 A. Yes. The town had been shelled heavily, there was no water,

19 electricity. There was a shortage of supplies, and where I went to, they

20 had some food after all, and there was less risk involved, less risk to

21 personal safety, in terms of shelling.

22 Q. At your father-in-law's house you felt much safer and the

23 conditions were better, is that true?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

Page 17605

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic?

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, very briefly, just a

3 clarification stemming from the examination-in-chief.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Petric?

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. I'm Novak Lukic, Defence counsel for Miroslav Tadic.

8 A. Pleased to meet you.

9 Q. You said that you were born from Donji Hasic, born in Donji Hasic

10 and when you were describing the gym at the school and you said that

11 people were on the next day brought from Gornji Hasic, Donji Hasic et

12 cetera so that they were your people from your village, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I'm going to ask you about those ten, 11 days while you were in

15 the gym of the school. Do you know whether they took some people out of

16 there to the SUP? Do you know anything about that? Did you hear anything

17 about that?

18 A. Yes. The police called out some people's names. Any way, they

19 came and took people out individually. I don't know where. But I just

20 know that they would call out someone's name and then this person would go

21 away and be returned later.

22 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution? The Prosecution?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

Page 17606

1 Q. Mr. Petric, my name is Di Fazio, I'm going to ask you a few

2 questions on behalf of the Prosecution. I'll try to be as brief as I can.

3 A. Please go ahead.

4 Q. Thank you. The people who initially arrested you at your home,

5 were they local police?

6 A. The people, the police who arrested me at my apartment, I mean I

7 did not know them. I don't know the names of these persons. Well, maybe,

8 but I simply don't know their names.

9 Q. Yes. Did any of them have foreign accents?

10 A. No. I didn't hear that because they were -- I mean they did not

11 answer any of our questions so I cannot really remember how they spoke.

12 Q. All right. So there is nothing that you can tell us as to whether

13 or not these people were locals or otherwise? Or perhaps a combination of

14 locals and people from outside of the municipality?

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's speculation, asking him to speculate whether

16 these were locals or a mixture of locals he said he doesn't know.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: It's not speculation I'm asking him specifically if

18 there was anything that --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the question is proper and the witness can

20 answer.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm that because I

22 don't know these people. I did not contact them. I mean it's not that I

23 didn't contact them but whatever I asked, I didn't get any answers so I

24 personally do not know.

25 MR. DI FAZIO:

Page 17607

1 Q. Okay. Now you just briefly mentioned to us just a moment ago in

2 answer to Defence counsel that police came into the high school gym and

3 took away prisoners for questioning. Can you tell us if those police

4 officers were locals or whether they were from elsewhere? Or both?

5 A. Unfortunately again, I cannot since I cannot see properly, I was

6 not in a position to know, because they just called out people's names and

7 surnames and that would be it.

8 Q. Fair enough. I understand that but is there anything perhaps that

9 you heard that might indicate whether or not the police officers who came

10 in to the high school gym and took away prisoners were foreigners?

11 A. I wouldn't know how to answer that question really. I think it

12 was the people who guarded us who called out these names, and we were

13 guarded by the police. They were the security there, the guards there,

14 the police was, and I really cannot say.

15 Q. Thank you. Did -- can you recall any of the names of the local

16 police who came and called out names?

17 A. Well, perhaps only one policeman, Predo. I wouldn't know anybody

18 else. But he just guarded us there, our names would usually be called out

19 in the morning, and in the evening, to see whether we were all there.

20 Q. All right. Okay. Now, just if you can answer questions with a

21 yes or a no that would speed up things and hopefully we can finish

22 quickly. In May of 1992, you were a telephone operator?

23 A. Very well. Yes.

24 Q. You didn't possess any weapons?

25 A. I never had a weapon. I'm a disabled person. I didn't do any

Page 17608

1 military service, sir, or anything so I never had a firearm, no.

2 Q. Precisely. And you weren't a member in May of 1992 or indeed at

3 any time in 1992 of any paramilitary formation or supported any

4 paramilitary formation in the municipality?

5 A. No, never. I never supported any such thing.

6 Q. Fine. Now, you were arrested for no good cause. That's correct,

7 isn't it?

8 A. I wouldn't know. I don't know any reason, because when I was

9 taken, I was asked -- I asked why did you arrest me? And I didn't get an

10 answer. I asked a few times and I asked different people, but none of

11 this succeeded. There was just silence.

12 Q. Thank you. You were never ever provided with an explanation as to

13 why you had been arrested, taken to Crkvina and then placed inside the

14 high school gym by anyone in authority?

15 A. No, no one ever said anything to us.

16 Q. However, the men who were in custody at the high school gym were

17 all Croats, weren't they? Or in the main Croats?

18 A. All were Croats. That's for sure. At the high school gym.

19 Q. Thank you and you know, don't you, Mr. Petric, that the only

20 reason you were there along with those other men was the fact that they

21 were Croats? Simply because of your ethnicity?

22 A. Well, nobody told me. I asked for them to tell me why I was

23 there, but nothing was confirmed.

24 Q. I heard that and I understand that and I'm not disagreeing with

25 you. What I'm suggesting to you is that you know, don't you, that the

Page 17609

1 only reason that you and all of the other men in the high school gym were

2 imprisoned in that place is because you were Croats?

3 A. Well, I don't know. I can't confirm that. That's precisely what

4 I asked them to tell me and that's not what they told me so I cannot

5 confirm that. Had somebody said that to me -- I mean, it's only what I

6 can think but nobody ever said that to me.

7 Q. Fair enough. Now, on the -- in late May, around the 25th of May,

8 at that time, your wife was living in Bosanski Samac, correct? Just yes

9 or no.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Your children were still in Bosanski Samac, correct? Yes or no.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You had at least your father-in-law living in Bosanski Samac,

14 correct?

15 A. No. He lived in a village which is called Tursinovac near

16 Bosanski Samac.

17 Q. Fair enough. And your wife and you also had other relatives and

18 family living in Bosanski Samac at that time, cousins, aunts, uncles,

19 extended members of your family?

20 A. I did but I didn't go anywhere else, for safety reasons only,

21 because of the shells and everything else, I didn't move about much.

22 Q. All right. And at that time, in May of 1992, no one in Croatia

23 was asking for you to be exchanged and taken from Bosanski Samac, were

24 they?

25 A. I can't hear this. Oh, yes, now I can hear it. I didn't hear

Page 17610

1 this right.

2 Q. Okay. At the time of your exchange, no one in Croatia, as far as

3 you are aware, was seeking you, was asking for you to be exchanged, taken

4 out of Bosanski Samac?

5 A. No, nobody was looking for me, and I really don't know whether

6 anybody was looking for me.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, let's go to the day of your exchange. You had an

8 opportunity to speak to some people whom, as far as you were aware, were

9 members of the International Committee of the Red Cross, and that was in

10 or close to the high school gym and before you were taken off to the

11 exchange point?

12 A. It was precisely in the hallway of the high school. I have

13 already said that we had been lined up in the hall and these people who

14 were sitting were perhaps four or five metres in front so they were

15 a bit further away. So one by one we would walk up to them, speak

16 quietly, and of course she would write that down and that was it.

17 Q. Thank you. However, all I'm interested in is this: The people

18 who you spoke to in the high school, in the hallway, as far as you could

19 tell, were not locals but members of the International Committee of the

20 Red Cross? Is that your position?

21 A. They were members of the Red Cross because they just spoke a

22 foreign language and then this was being translated. I didn't understand

23 what they were saying in their language so --

24 Q. Okay. And just if you can answer yes or no, you made it clear to

25 these foreign people who were members of the Red Cross that you did not

Page 17611

1 wish to be exchanged?

2 A. Yes, yes. That's what I said.

3 Q. What followed from that was that you were taken from a prison,

4 put on a bus, and taken to the river where the exchange was taking place?

5 A. Yes, precisely.

6 Q. On the bus was Mr. Miroslav Tadic present?

7 A. It was a truck, not a bus. I did not see him. I can't say that I

8 saw him.

9 Q. Do you know him and can you recognise his voice?

10 A. No. I don't recognise his voice. I don't know him really.

11 Perhaps I never spoke to him personally.

12 Q. Can you tell us if he was present -- I know you don't know him but

13 did you hear from anyone else, do you have any other information,

14 indicating his presence or otherwise? If you don't know, say so.

15 A. I don't know about that.

16 Q. Thank you. At the actual exchange, the people that you spoke to

17 and expressed a desire not to be exchanged were essentially two, Mr. Zaric

18 and the Red Cross, the International Committee of the Red Cross?

19 A. No, no. Mr. Zaric was not there. I mean he was there in front of

20 the truck with a few people, and they were talking, that's what I said,

21 whereas the Red Cross was right by the banks of the Bosna River.

22 Q. Okay. But you had an opportunity to speak to the International

23 Committee of the Red Cross and again for a second time make it clear that

24 you did not wish to be exchanged, correct?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 17612

1 Q. And it was then, in the presence of the International Red Cross at

2 the exchange that you were permitted to remain, not forced to actually

3 cross?

4 A. No. I was not forced to cross.

5 Q. Okay. What's your father's name?

6 A. My father's name is Djuro. He was also present at that exchange.

7 Q. Do you know of any other Andrija Petrics living in Bosanski Samac?

8 A. No. I don't know any other such person. I had a neighbour who

9 was also Andrija Petric, and this was in Gornji Hasic, but he was an

10 elderly man.

11 Q. Have you got any relatives called Nikola?

12 A. No, I don't.

13 Q. Were you ever taken to Lipovac for any other exchanges?

14 A. No, no. They never took me anywhere after that.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me? If you allow

16 me a moment I think I may be able to speed this up.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

19 [Prosecution counsel confer]

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination? Yes, Mr. Pisarevic?

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I'll be very quick, Your Honours.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

24 Q. Sir, just one question: What is your estimate approximately

25 from -- what was the distance from the place where you saw Mr. Zaric to

Page 17613

1 the place where you talked on the banks of the Bosna River with the

2 representatives of the Red Cross?

3 A. The distance was about 300 metres.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

5 questions.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Petric, for giving evidence to the

7 Trial Chamber. We are now through. You may leave the courtroom.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Who is the next witness?

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, our next witness is Mr. Savo

12 Djurdjevic. This is according to our list, and we informed the Trial

13 Chamber yesterday.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: I can't hear what you're saying. Yes, can he come?

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just -- well, Your Honours -- I believe that

16 Mr. Pantelic had some issue to address the Court about. Maybe we should

17 just wait and see what is this issue. I'm not familiar, he just told me

18 that he would like to address the Trial Chamber. Maybe it would be better

19 before we bring the witness inside.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the witness in? Mr. Pantelic, you can

21 wait for tomorrow. Yes, please.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the witness make the solemn declaration?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 17614

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 WITNESS: SAVO DJURDJEVIC

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Djurdjevic.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. Mr. Djurdjevic, when I first spoke to you, I noticed that we have

10 a little problem. Could you please wait, because everything we are saying

11 is being interpreted, and we need to make it possible for the interpreters

12 to interpret and that is impossible when questions and answers overlap.

13 So could you please speak slowly? After I finish my question, can you

14 pause for a few moments before you give me an answer to that question?

15 A. Yes, all right.

16 Q. Please, could you now for the purposes of the transcript, tell us

17 your full name and surname?

18 A. Savo Djurdjevic.

19 Q. Tell me, when were you born?

20 A. On the 2nd of June, 1954.

21 Q. Could you please tell me where you were born?

22 A. Bosanski Samac.

23 Q. Where do you live?

24 A. In Samac.

25 Q. Could you please tell me what your profession is?

Page 17615

1 A. I'm a retiree.

2 Q. Mr. Djurdjevic, did you do your military service in the Yugoslav

3 People's Army?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell me where and when?

6 A. In Krusevac and Prokuplje. This is the area of present-day

7 Serbia. In 1973 and 1974. From June, 1973 until September, 1974.

8 Q. Tell me, are you married?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you have any children?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How many children and what are their ages?

13 A. Two sons. They are 21 and 12 respectively.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Were you ever a member of the League of

15 Communists of Yugoslavia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me, when were you a member and until when?

18 A. From 1971 until 1990.

19 Q. Are you a member of any political party now?

20 A. Yes. The Socialist Party.

21 Q. When you say the Socialist Party, since there are many Socialist

22 Parties, can you tell us a bit more specifically?

23 A. The Socialist Party of Republika Srpska.

24 Q. Just one more question and then our time will run out. Can you

25 tell me where you lived before 1992?

Page 17616

1 A. Before 1992, I lived in the town of Rijeka. This is now a city in

2 the territory of Croatia.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, I believe that our usual time for

4 trial has expired so...

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So we will continue tomorrow.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

7 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

8 the 28th day of March, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25