Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17718

1 Monday, 31 March 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the witness make the solemn declaration?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 WITNESS: ILIJA MIHALJ

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Please sit down. Yes, Mr. Lukic?

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

16 morning to all the parties. Good morning sir. My colleague, Krgovic will

17 question Mr. Mihalj but at the beginning I would just like to ask the

18 Chamber about the -- so we would like to -- we are talking about the

19 redacted statements so what we would like to do is before we start to

20 provide the Court with these edited statements, redacted statements, so

21 that they could be given numbers. They have been completely redacted so

22 is it the best thing to do to provide them now so that these redacted

23 statements would then be available for the Chamber as well as the witness

24 during questioning?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

Page 17719

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, please, Mr. Ilija Mihalj

2 will testify now. His statement already has an ID statement, D120/3 ID

3 and now, according to the instructions of the Trial Chamber, we will

4 present to the witness the redacted statements which had the relevant

5 sections taken out. There is a version in English and in B/C/S.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Is there a copy for the interpreters?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters were wondering whether they have a

8 copy. They don't actually need one because the viva voce evidence will

9 not be from the statement. Yes.

10 Examined by Mr. Krgovic:

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mihalj.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. Could you please put the statement down for the time being and if

15 you could just turn your chair a little bit so that you would be sitting

16 facing straight in front? Yes, that's right.

17 Sir, could you please tell us your name?

18 A. My name is Ilija Mihalj.

19 Q. Sir, in order to go through this proceedings as soon as possible,

20 I will just read out the general information contained in this statement

21 and if you could just confirm for me --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: We already have the particulars so there is no need

23 to repeat them. You simply go straight to the evidence required.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Mihalj, could you please tell us, did you sign this statement

Page 17720

1 in Samac, the statement that is in front of you right now?

2 A. Yes, I signed this statement.

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the exhibit,

4 full exhibit number for this statement, please?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: We don't need to go through that. We already have

6 these numbers, what the Registry will do is simply formally record them

7 properly. And we already have the particulars of the witness so just go

8 straight forward to the evidence.

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Mihalj, could you please tell us where did you live before the

11 war in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12 A. Before the war, I lived in Odzak, in Bosanska Posavina.

13 Q. Mr. Mihalj, could you please tell us, were you a member of any

14 political party before the war?

15 A. I wasn't a member of any party during the war, but afterwards, in

16 peace time, I was a member of the --

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the name of the

18 party.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Could you please repeat the name of this party that you just

21 mentioned?

22 A. New Croatian Initiative.

23 Q. Mr. Mihalj, could you please tell us, until when did you live in

24 Odzak? Before the outbreak of the conflict.

25 A. I lived in Odzak until the last day, five to six days before the

Page 17721

1 fall of Odzak. In the meantime, I returned, I went to Croatia and came

2 back to Odzak.

3 Q. When did you definitely leave Odzak?

4 A. I left Odzak in the month of July. I don't remember the date,

5 whether it was the 6th or the 7th. It was approximately around that time.

6 Q. And where did you go after that?

7 A. I went to Slavonski Brod in Croatia.

8 Q. After a certain amount of time, did you return to Odzak?

9 A. I returned to Odzak -- how do you mean?

10 Q. To live.

11 A. Again?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Yes, yes, after the Dayton Accords.

14 Q. Mr. Mihalj, in your statement, you've already said that you know

15 Mr. Tadic from before the war, that you were on good terms with him. I'm

16 not going to ask you about those things.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Don't repeat what has already been admitted,

18 please. Let's go back to the evidence that was redacted. That's all you

19 need to lead the witness on.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You described in the previous paragraphs your preparations for

22 departure and preparations to see Miroslav Tadic. When you arrived, could

23 you please tell us where did you meet Miroslav Tadic then when you went to

24 get his help about the exchange of Ivo Doslic whom you mentioned? Where

25 was this meeting?

Page 17722

1 A. The meeting took place in Dragalic. It's a settlement towards --

2 in the direction of Zagreb. I think it's about 70 kilometres away.

3 Q. Was this -- could you please tell us whether this was in the UNPA

4 zone under the control -- the zone under the control of the United

5 Nations?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. On that occasion, when you went to this meeting with Tadic, did

8 you go -- is that the place where the negotiations took place or the

9 exchange took place?

10 A. The negotiations took place on that day. There was no exchange.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, Your Honours,

12 please, so that I can consult with my colleagues.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

14 [Defence counsel confer]

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Mihalj, could you please tell us who was present on that

17 occasion from the Croatian side when you met with Miroslav Tadic?

18 A. Mijo Matanovic was there. I was there. There was a person from

19 Gradiska, I don't know his name. He was the mayor of Gradiska later. I

20 think the Red Cross was present and also the people from the United

21 Nations who were taking care of security.

22 Q. And who was there from the opposite side?

23 A. Mr. Miro Tadic was there from the opposite side. Grujicic, we

24 called him Grujo. There was a lawyer from Doboj by the name of Lukic and

25 there was another man, an older man, I don't know his name. He stood to

Page 17723

1 the side a little bit further off.

2 Q. Mr. Mihalj you said that you had prepared some money, that you

3 wanted to offer to Tadic. Could you please tell me how did you come to

4 the idea to offer this money to Tadic? Did you -- did you -- what was the

5 reason for you to offer money? Did you hear something? What was your

6 motive?

7 A. The money was -- we have gotten used to in these transitional

8 country of ours to offer that when we go for a drink or something so that

9 was a reason, the reason why I took the money, the situation had changed

10 but this was our habit in any kind of transaction, in the former

11 Yugoslavia, to offer money.

12 Q. Mr. Mihalj, did you meet with Tadic on that occasion?

13 A. Yes. I met Mr. Tadic near Dragalic where the talks were held, the

14 negotiations were held, about the exchange.

15 Q. Did you say hello to Tadic? Could you describe in a couple of

16 sentences how this meeting between you proceeded?

17 A. They prepared this document for me so that I could go through the

18 UNPA zone so I had a pass from the police, also from the HVO and the

19 Croatian Army so when I arrived, Miro was there. I stood there. I

20 stopped close by in my car. And then when he saw me, we immediately

21 started walking towards one another and he said, where are you coming

22 from? And he [as interpreted] said well, I need to see you.

23 Q. Did you greet each other?

24 A. Yes, we greeted each other, we kissed, we hadn't seen each other

25 for a long time. Just like we would usually do.

Page 17724

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour one small correction for the

2 transcript on page 6, line 21, and I said, well, I need to see you. It's

3 not and he said, well, I need to see you. This is what the witness said.

4 He actually needed to see Mr. Tadic. He had something to discuss with

5 him.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, perhaps that can be corrected with the

7 witness.

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Mihalj, when you were describing this encounter of yours and

10 this first contact with Tadic, can you please repeat what you said to

11 Tadic? Because the way it's recorded in the transcript is incorrect.

12 A. It was a meeting, afterwards a couple of us sat down for a couple

13 of minutes and I said.

14 Q. Your first contact, what you said about when Miroslav Tadic asked

15 you where are you coming from, what did you respond to him?

16 A. There is a detainee called Doslic in Samac so I'm here to see

17 about this man, Ivo Doslic.

18 Q. Before you started this conversation, did you tell Tadic, "I've

19 come to see you"?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you please tell us, Mr. Mihalj, could you describe how you

22 started the conversation about this Doslic and what did you offer

23 Mr. Miroslav Tadic?

24 A. I personally didn't know Doslic. I heard his name in a restaurant

25 in a cafe, and this owner, Grozd asked me to go to Dragalic and to see.

Page 17725

1 When we were sitting there, while they were over there, this, going

2 through the script of the detained, me and Mr. Miro stood about a metre or

3 so away from his car and I told him that I had brought some money, if this

4 was necessary, so I could give that to him. It was about 5.000 German

5 marks. And Miro said, "Ilija, I don't need the money. We don't take

6 money. We have to try to help everybody and to have each ethnic group

7 exchanged so that everybody could go to their home."

8 Q. Just a small correction, excuse me, Mr. Mihalj, but in the

9 transcript, on page 7, line 24, you said that the owner of the cafe called

10 Grozd --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was the name of the owner?

13 A. Anto Jukic. He was the one who gave me the money.

14 Q. One more correction. Page 8, lines 5 and 6, when you said that

15 Tadic had replied, "I don't need the money," and everyone should be at

16 home, every member of every ethnic group should go to his own home?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please sit a little closer to the microphone so that the

19 interpreters can hear you properly?

20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Krgovic, one thing in the

21 transcript on line 25 of page 7, it says, "when we were sitting there,

22 while they were over there, this, going through the script of the

23 detained, me and Mr. Miro stood about a metre or so away from his car,"

24 I'm uncertain in terms of the translation, when we were sitting there, and

25 they were over there, going through the script of the detained, I presume

Page 17726

1 that means lists or something like that, but could you clarify the sitting

2 here and there? Doesn't really seem to make too much sense.

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Mihalj, let's clarify this. You were sitting to one side with

5 Miroslav Tadic apart from the others and you sat down somewhere?

6 A. Yes, it was two metres away from the car. This was at a petrol

7 pump. The two of us were sitting together and talking.

8 Q. And who was sitting beside you and looking at those lists?

9 A. Well, a little further away, those lists were on the car, and

10 Grewo and the people from Gradiska [Realtime transcript read in error

11 "grad I shall you"] were looking at them, the people who were in charge of

12 those lists.

13 Q. So the negotiators?

14 A. Yes, yes, I wasn't interested in those lists.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, I believe that we need some

16 corrections for the transcript. First of all, on page 9, line 9, first

17 word is G-r-e-w-o. It's a name of a person Grujicic Milutin, nicknamed

18 Grewo, who was before this Trial Chamber as a witness, if you remember.

19 So just to have it clear for the transcript. And here in the same line,

20 page 9, people from Gradiska, it's Gradiska. It's a name of town,

21 Gradiska. So this means the representative of Gradiska. That's it. And

22 now that's the -- this makes sense.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, let's proceed. Thank you for the corrections.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Mihalj, when you mentioned to Miroslav Tadic this man Doslic

Page 17727

1 did he know anything about him?

2 A. He knew nothing about him. We went to where the papers were and

3 we found him on this script or list.

4 Q. When you were looking for this in the script, who was leafing

5 through it?

6 A. They were all standing around the car, the man from Gradiska and

7 Grujicic and I myself because they allowed me to, and Mr. Miro.

8 Q. Tell me, Mr. Mihalj, the name of Ivo Doslic was on the list of

9 persons to be exchanged?

10 A. Yes, it was. And there were some marks next to his name

11 indicating that he was to be exchanged.

12 Q. Did Grujicic say anything to you on that occasion about the

13 possibility of having Doslic exchanged?

14 A. He told me that he was supposed to come on Tuesday, and although I

15 wanted to go and look around --

16 Q. Please limit your replies to my questions. We will come to these

17 details later on. Just tell me what Grujicic told you?

18 A. That Ivo was supposed to come on the following Tuesday. I don't

19 know what day it was but on the following Tuesday he was supposed to be

20 exchanged.

21 Q. Was Ivo Doslic exchanged on the following Tuesday?

22 A. I tried to find out and he wasn't. It was on the Tuesday after

23 that, so they skipped a Tuesday.

24 Q. Can you tell us when he was exchanged, what month was it?

25 A. It was September, I think. It was hot. We were lying there on

Page 17728

1 the grass.

2 Q. What year was it? Was it in 1992?

3 A. Yes, in 1992, it was a long time ago.

4 Q. Tell us, Mr. Mihalj, did you try to find out and were you told why

5 Doslic was not exchanged on the following Tuesday but on the Tuesday

6 after? Did Tadic send you a message about this?

7 A. Well, it was probably the institutions in charge of the exchanges

8 and some documents could not be made ready in time for that Tuesday. The

9 institutions in [Realtime transcript read in error "Naser Sejdic"] charge

10 of that weren't able to do it on time so that's why he couldn't come on

11 that Tuesday.

12 Q. On that occasion, when you saw Tadic, did you ask him for anything

13 else?

14 A. No.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, page 11, line 7 says Naser Sejdic.

16 Never this witness mentioned this name and it has nothing to do with all

17 this.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you just be asked to repeat what he said

19 slowly?

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Mihalj, we were having some technical problems with the

22 transcript. So could you please, when you were talking about the reasons

23 why this man was not exchanged on the following Tuesday, you mentioned the

24 approval of various institutions. Could you repeat that answer?

25 A. On the first Tuesday after the agreement, Ivo Doslic did not

Page 17729

1 arrive because of some papers that other institutions were supposed to

2 prepare in order for Doslic to be exchanged on that Tuesday. So that

3 instead, he came on the Tuesday after that.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, unless I've missed

7 something the witness has referred to the first Tuesday after the

8 agreement. I haven't heard -- unless I've missed it, I haven't heard any

9 evidence of an agreement or what it might be.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said after the talks,

11 but I will discuss it with the witness.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, let's proceed slowly.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Yes. Let's proceed slowly. After what, after your meeting?

15 A. After the meeting where there were negotiations, he was supposed

16 to -- that is Ivo Doslic whom I don't even know was supposed to be

17 exchanged on the following Tuesday but in fact he arrived 15 days later

18 rather than seven days later.

19 Q. You didn't mention a man called Naser Sejdic?

20 A. I don't know anyone called Naser. I know what I know.

21 Q. Tell me, Mr. Mihalj, on that occasion, when talking to Tadic, did

22 you ask him for anything else? Did you ask him to go to your house and

23 bring you some things?

24 A. Yes, yes. I did. Along with all the other things we talked

25 about, I asked him to go to my house in Odzak and if he found photographs

Page 17730

1 of my children, and some 15 or 20 days later or a month later he sent me

2 those photographs. I can't be precise about the date but I received a

3 plastic bag full of photographs from my house. Later on, -- yeah, he sent

4 them to me by Mijo Matanovic who handed me those pictures in Djakovo.

5 Q. Did you have occasion to contact Tadic again before the end of the

6 war?

7 A. No. We didn't talk by phone or anything, but we met after I

8 returned to Odzak.

9 Q. Tell me, Mr. Mihalj, the money that you took along to give to

10 Tadic, did you return it to that man?

11 A. Yes, as soon as I got into the car I gave the money back and I

12 said that Miro didn't want to take the money. I gave Anto back his 5.000

13 marks.

14 Q. And what did Anto say to you?

15 A. He was surprised. He didn't say anything but he was surprised. I

16 could have kept the money but I didn't want to.

17 Q. What impression did Tadic leave on you then? Was he very firm

18 when he rejected the money?

19 A. Yes. He said I don't need money, we are not doing this for

20 money. Well, he could have taken it but that was his response.

21 Q. You knew Tadic both before and after the war. What was his

22 financial status?

23 A. Very good. Excellent. He was among the most prosperous people in

24 Samac.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mihalj.

Page 17731

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

2 questions for this witness.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. -- it is not the intention of the Trial Chamber

6 to allow other counsel to ask the witnesses because these are matters that

7 have already been covered so we will just have cross-examination from the

8 Prosecution.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, this is just what I wanted to

10 ask for instructions, whether I'm entitled to ask any questions or not.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. No.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, on the --

13 because of this decision, I would like to ask about how to proceed, when

14 the next counsel have their turn, there may be something that is

15 detrimental to another Defence. I have already read some statements from

16 the other Defence teams, if there is something mentioned that hinders my

17 Defence will I be allowed to put questions to those witnesses in the

18 interests of the defence of my client.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Unless you can show the Trial Chamber that that is

20 the first time that that matter has been mentioned because most of these

21 statements are actually discussing cumulative evidence so you have already

22 cross-examined on the same issues, there is no need to repeat the

23 cross-examination.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. That's just

25 what I thought. If we see something in a 92 bis statement that runs

Page 17732

1 counter to our Defence --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: What I'm saying is unless that's the first time that

3 that matter has been mentioned which the Trial Chamber does not believe

4 will be the case, because almost all these statements are actually -- the

5 evidence is cumulative. The viva voce witnesses have already covered

6 almost everything.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution?

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, if Your Honours please, I have just a

10 few questions.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

12 Q. Anto Jukic wanted to get his friend, Doslic out of the secondary

13 school prison in Bosanski Samac, correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did he raise the issue with you of doing something about it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. He came to you and sought your assistance?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The reason that he came to you and sought your assistance was that

20 you knew Tadic very well, you were friends with him?

21 A. Yes. He was my teacher, and we were on good terms since 1965

22 onwards.

23 Q. The other reason that Anto Jukic came to you was that both of

24 you knew that Tadic was the man who controlled the exchanges?

25 A. Jukic didn't know about Mr. Miroslav Tadic. Rather in the cafe,

Page 17733

1 Mijo Matanovic said to him that Mr. Tadic was at the negotiations in

2 Dragalic, and that was why I went there. They asked me to go, both Mijo

3 Matanovic and Anto Jukic. And he was a relative of Anto Jukic's not a

4 friend, if I may correct my statement.

5 Q. Very well. It was Mijo Matanovic who explained to you and Anto

6 Jukic that Mr. Tadic was the man to see in order to get someone exchanged,

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And whose idea was it to get together the 5.000 deutschmarks to

10 pay for this exchange?

11 A. We all had the same idea. We were used to it. It's hard to say

12 who mentioned it first. We put it in our pockets and set out.

13 Q. And you were aware, weren't you, that by September of 1992, the

14 exchanges had been going on for some months and that Mr. Tadic had been

15 involved in those exchanges for some months in that area?

16 A. Yes, yes. I was aware of that.

17 Q. Right.

18 A. But --

19 Q. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. Please finish your answer.

20 A. But I saw him on that occasion only, but I did hear that he was

21 taking part in exchanges and negotiations.

22 Q. Thank you. And Mijo Matanovic was, as far as you could tell, a

23 man who had also considerable experience in the arrangement of exchanges?

24 A. Mijo was on the Croatian side. I didn't know very much about the

25 exchanges, but Mijo was in charge on the Croatian side, our side.

Page 17734

1 Q. He was obviously -- knew a lot more about the system of exchanges,

2 how it worked, who the important personalities were, compared to you and

3 Anto Jukic?

4 A. Probably, yes.

5 Q. Okay. The result of your discussions is that you three considered

6 that a bribe was necessary, or might be necessary, to arrange this

7 exchange?

8 A. Well, as I said, this was the custom in the former Yugoslavia, to

9 give bribes, but on this occasion, it was not successful, and Miro refused

10 it.

11 Q. Customary or not, it was a bribe, plain and simple, wasn't it?

12 You were planning to pay a bribe?

13 A. Yes. We were planning to do that but we didn't.

14 Q. And furthermore, 5.000 deutschmarks in 1992 was a lot of money,

15 wasn't it?

16 A. 5.000 deutschmarks was always a lot of money.

17 Q. Particularly --

18 A. But, well, it depends on the person.

19 Q. Yes. I suppose it does. But as far as you three were concerned,

20 it was a lot of money, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes. It was a lot of money, yes.

22 Q. And with this 5.000 dollars -- sorry, 5.000 deutschmarks, you

23 considered it appropriate when you actually met Mr. Tadic, to offer the

24 money?

25 A. We didn't consider it to be a lot of money but in the war we kind

Page 17735

1 of lost our bearings. We thought well the times have changed, we didn't

2 know what was going on in Bosanska Posavina and they didn't know what was

3 going on in Croatia, so -- that was it.

4 Q. Thank you. When you met Mr. Tadic at the exchange, you decided to

5 offer and did in fact offer the 5.000 deutschmarks to him, didn't you?

6 A. Yes. I was sitting with him near his car, and I said that I

7 brought it for him to try and Miro said that the money was not necessary

8 that we would see when Doslic was meant to be in the exchange.

9 Q. And the reason that you offered the money was that you, Mijo

10 Matanovic and Anto Jukic had all concluded that in order to get Doslic

11 exchanged you had to in fact pay a bribe to Mr. Tadic, correct?

12 A. Yes. Just one correction, Mr. Prosecutor. Mijo Matanovic didn't

13 know anything about these Deutsche German marks, only myself and Anto

14 Jukic knew about that.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: No further questions.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination?

18 Re-examined by Mr. Krgovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mihalj I will ask you several questions now

20 regarding the questions asked by the Prosecutor and the answers that you

21 gave to the Prosecutor. The Prosecutor suggested that you should answer

22 to his questions that he was the one who was in control of the exchanges

23 and he was the person who was in charge regarding the exchanges.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You were at this place where the negotiations were taking place.

Page 17736

1 Who was the chief there? Who was the main person in charge for the

2 negotiations? Who was Miroslav Tadic's chief?

3 A. We didn't know if Miro was in charge. We had only heard that he

4 took part in these exchanges. Grujicic was the chief. And from the other

5 side this person from Gradiska, even Mijo -- Mijo and Miro

6 were not in charge. I don't know what the name is of this person from

7 Gradiska. I wasn't even interested in that.

8 Q. On that occasion, did Tadic tell you that he was in charge, that

9 he was deciding?

10 A. No, no. He didn't say anything like that. We just based

11 ourselves on the issue of Doslic and we just stuck to seeing when he was

12 meant to be in the exchange.

13 Q. So who told you that he would be exchanged on Tuesday? Was that

14 Tadic or somebody else?

15 A. They opened up a book and we all looked in this book and he said

16 that on Tuesday, Doslic was supposed to be exchanged. When we were all

17 looking in the book we looked in the -- and it was listed in alphabetical

18 order.

19 Q. But who had this book?

20 A. Grujicic had the book.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, none of this arose in

22 cross-examination. It's all stuff that could have been covered in chief.

23 I didn't ask anything about the actual negotiations themselves other than

24 the question of the offer of money.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: There was a question about who was in charge of the

Page 17737

1 exchanges.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, very well. I'll withdraw my objection.

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Mihalj, based on these conversations with the people and with

5 Tadic and with Grujicic, what was your impression? Who was in charge of

6 these exchanges?

7 A. Grujicic was in charge. This is what we heard and this is what we

8 read about. Grujicic was in charge. He had all the papers. Miro and I

9 were a bit too -- a bit off to the side, two or three metres from the car.

10 And that's where we talked to Grujicic.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mihalj. Your

12 Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Mr. Mihalj, for giving evidence

14 to the Tribunal. We have finished. You may go.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, may I just cross the bar

18 table and confer with my colleague, Mr. Lukic for a moment?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.

20 [Prosecution and Defence counsel confer]

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the next witness?

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, very well, the next witness.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is informed that there is no

24 witness waiting. What has happened?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I informed the service

Page 17738

1 yesterday that three witnesses should be ready today and possibly a fourth

2 one. This is what I informed the witness and victims protection unit.

3 The next witness is to be Zeljko Volasevic, even though I didn't

4 specify the timings. Mr. Mihalj was planned for less than an hour for the

5 examination-in-chief and then the cross. Perhaps this is happening

6 because the cross-examination of Mr. Mihalj took a little more than five

7 minutes. Perhaps the witnesses are still at the hotel. Perhaps we can

8 take a break early but in any event we do have three witnesses ready for

9 today and possibly the fourth. While we are waiting, perhaps I can hand

10 you --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous interpretation continues] ... two besides

12 this one. It's strange that they just brought one.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I asked for all three

14 witnesses to be here at 9.00 in the morning to be here and to wait. Our

15 practice is to have the witnesses brought altogether. We've had witnesses

16 who have been here sitting and waiting all day. That's been our practice

17 to date. While we are waiting, I can hand over the redacted statements of

18 Zeljko Volasevic, they are ready. This is the next witness.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: In fact we can have all of them, if you have them,

20 so... Yes. We understand some witnesses are just coming up so we can

21 have those statements.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I've just seen that.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the witness make the solemn declaration?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 17739

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 WITNESS: ZELJKO VOLASEVIC

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Please sit down. Yes, Mr. Lukic?

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Here are the redacted statements for

6 the witness and for the Chamber. The witness is Mr. Volasevic. The rest

7 of the statements I can -- they are all ready and I can hand them over

8 during the next break. According to the decision of the Trial Chamber,

9 the Defence will not be questioning this witness but he will be

10 cross-examined by the Prosecution. Would you like me to ask some

11 preliminary question of the witness or will you ask the Prosecution to

12 begin with the cross-examination right away?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Because you have already prepared him, that he's

14 going to be cross-examined on the evidence which he gave in his

15 statement?

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Then we simply go ahead with

18 cross-examination.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can ask the witness only

20 whether he signed the statement, if this would be of use to you, but he

21 did sign the statement so, if -- I don't need to ask it, then perhaps we

22 could move to the cross-examination straight away.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we can simply move to the cross-examination.

24 Yes, the Prosecution?

25 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, are any of the other Defence counsel

Page 17740

1 planning to cross the witness.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Thank you. No, the Trial Chamber will only

3 allow questions by other counsel if there is something completely knew.

4 They are not going to cross-examine on the same issues that have been

5 discussed with the other four viva voce witnesses.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Weiner:

7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Volasevic. My name is Phillip Weiner. I'm with

8 the Office of the Prosecutor and I'm going to be asking you some questions

9 this morning. Do you understand that?

10 A. Yes, I understand. Thank you and good morning.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you served in the local commune in Bosanski

12 Samac for some 15 years, isn't that correct? Or you served in the local

13 commune for many years?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Over some 15 years you served as its secretary?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And as its secretary, you were responsible for maintaining the

18 electoral rolls for the community of Bosanski Samac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And by the electoral rolls, you mean the voting lists?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now these voting lists were the ones that were used in the

23 municipal elections in 1990, isn't that correct?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What were these voting lists used for then?

Page 17741

1 A. For elections in the local unit or as we call it the local

2 commune, and only for the territory of the local commune, numbering

3 approximately 6.000 citizens.

4 Q. Now, sir, you were aware of the election in 1990, the municipal

5 election, where many people from the local commune or from the town of

6 Bosanski Samac voted?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you recall that it was a very large turnout, over 80 per cent

9 came and voted?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And a 50 person assembly was elected as a result of that

12 elections?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that assembly included members of the HDZ party, the SDA and

15 SDS?

16 A. Yes. And another two parties.

17 Q. Yes, some smaller parties.

18 A. The SDP and the reform forces.

19 Q. Now, after April 17th, 1992, this elected assembly or this

20 democratically elected assembly, was no longer in power, isn't that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. There was now a Serbian Municipality of Samac and Pelagicevo under

24 formation that had taken power, that was the name of the new city?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17742

1 Q. And instead of the elected, the democratically elected government,

2 there was now a Crisis Staff that was in charge of this Serbian

3 municipality?

4 A. Yes but at the level of the municipality.

5 Q. Yes. And you were aware that Blagoje Simic was president, the

6 defendant Blagoje Simic was president of that Crisis Staff?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you're aware that there were no HDZ or SDA members in that

9 Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo

10 under formation?

11 A. Yes, but a little later, because this was municipal policy, while

12 I conducted only affairs only at the level of the local commune.

13 Q. Yes. I understand that. I'm just going through some of the new

14 changes that occurred after April 17th in the municipality. And do you

15 also agree that with this Crisis Staff, the elected assembly was no longer

16 in existence? In fact some of its members were being imprisoned?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Well, sir, are you saying that the assembly that was elected in

19 1990 was still in existence even though there was a new municipality -- a

20 new Serbian municipality and a new Serbian Crisis Staff?

21 A. Unfortunately, I must again rest on that. These were bodies at

22 the municipal level so I'm not familiar with the criteria based on which

23 the municipal assembly was elected but I do know the criteria for the

24 election in the municipal commune. I am aware of the regulations

25 governing that. The other level is something that some other people were

Page 17743

1 responsible for so I'm not informed about that.

2 Q. That's correct, sir. And you know, because you're familiar with

3 the election, that the Crisis Staff and the Serbian assembly were not in

4 office pursuant to a popular election of Samac residents. You're aware of

5 that?

6 A. The municipality of Bosanski Samac had 26 local communes where

7 elections were held so I am really not informed about how the elections

8 proceeded in those local communes which parties won there and I don't know

9 at what level the municipal assembly is elected. The only thing that I

10 know is the level at which the assembly of the local commune is elected as

11 well as its bodies.

12 Q. Sir. I understand that but the question was: The Serbian Crisis

13 Staff that took power after April 17th was not elected by the people in

14 the municipality of Samac or by the people in your local commune. They

15 didn't hold a public election and elect and install that Serbian Crisis

16 Staff?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that with this question, they

19 are trying to confuse the witness. I think the proper way would be to ask

20 the witness does he know how the Crisis Staff was elected? Does he know

21 who was in the municipality, in the Assembly of the Serbian People, and

22 then ask him whether this body was elected in such a way. Can he say who

23 was in the Crisis Staff and who was in the assembly of the Serbian people

24 of the municipality of Samac? That would be the first step.

25 MR. WEINER: Your Honour I was going to get to that.

Page 17744

1 JUDGE MUMBA: In addition, Mr. Weiner, the witness I think has

2 explained almost three times which level of elections he was dealing with

3 and what he knows, what level of knowledge he has as to the events.

4 MR. WEINER: However, I think I have the right to ask him if he's

5 aware that any special election was held where a Crisis Staff was elected

6 in Samac.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Asking him directly rather than putting

8 statements to him.

9 MR. WEINER:

10 Q. Sir, are you aware of any election in Samac where the Crisis Staff

11 was elected prior -- the Serbian Crisis Staff was elected prior to April

12 17th, 1992?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, sir, do you know when this Serbian Municipality of Samac and

15 Pelagicevo under formation was established?

16 A. Not officially, but in the town, talking to my neighbours, I

17 learned that it had been established but I don't know where or how or by

18 whom.

19 Q. And you had at least learned that it had been established prior to

20 April 17th?

21 A. I didn't say that.

22 Q. No, I'm asking you sir. Were you aware that it had been

23 established in February of 1992? Or sometime prior to April 17th?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Now, sir, you indicated in your statement that the local commune,

Page 17745

1 at the local commune, sometime in the spring of 1992, they had some

2 weapons, a rifle, a pistol, and you had a telephone to call police or

3 other authorities in case of an emergency. Isn't that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What were you planning to do with these weapons, sir?

6 A. I personally wasn't planning to do anything but the coordinating

7 body said that for our personal safety, because we had organised night

8 duty in case we had to intervene, for the personal security of those on

9 duty, we were given a rifle and a pistol. These were locked up during the

10 day and in the evening they were given to the person on duty.

11 Q. Sir, you said in case you have to intervene. Intervene against

12 what or whom?

13 A. I didn't say intervene. I said for our personal defence, should

14 there be some sort of incident that might threaten the lives of those

15 people at night, because there were criminals and all sorts of people in

16 the town.

17 Q. Sir, were these weapons ever used? Any of these weapons ever

18 used, before or after April 17th?

19 A. No, never.

20 Q. Now, sir, you were aware on or about April 17th, 1992, that

21 Serbian volunteers and that Serbian police from outside of the

22 municipality, were taking over all of the vital buildings and facilities

23 in Samac, isn't that correct?

24 A. Could you please repeat the first part of your question? It

25 wasn't clear to me.

Page 17746

1 Q. Sure, sir. Were you aware that the Serbian volunteers, those who

2 you said spoke in the Ekavian dialect, whom you didn't know, they were

3 from outside of Bosnia, had come into Samac, were taking over buildings,

4 vital facilities, taking over the town? You were aware of that, weren't

5 you?

6 A. Yes, but only on the 18th.

7 Q. Now, you were also aware that a new Crisis Staff had been

8 installed on or about that date?

9 A. On the 17th and the 18th, I didn't know that. I heard it only

10 after the 20th, that there was some sort of Crisis Staff in the

11 municipality. Before the civilian protection staff was to be set up. I

12 don't remember the exact day when this was.

13 Q. Now, sir, did you take any action to remove -- did you or members

14 of the local commune take any action to remove these Serbian volunteers or

15 to reinstate the democratically elected government of Bosanski Samac?

16 A. I personally wasn't able to. I was simply a technical person

17 preparing materials, agreeing on the dates of the sessions, with the

18 others. But whether the coordinating body tried to do something with the

19 Crisis Staff, I don't know. I didn't take part in any of those meetings

20 or talks.

21 Q. And you're not aware of the local commune taking any action to

22 remove this Crisis Staff and to reinstate the democratically elected

23 government? You're not aware of any action, sir?

24 A. No, no, I'm not aware of anything like that.

25 Q. Now, in fact, you indicate on the morning of the 18th or the 17th

Page 17747

1 or 18th, you see some men, a handful of Muslims, with rifles. You

2 indicated that in your statement, isn't that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You don't mention in your statement that the town was being taken

5 over or the town was taken over, isn't that correct? You never mention

6 that in your statement?

7 A. I don't mention it because the night before, I attended a meeting

8 at the local commune, I went home, went to sleep in the morning I was

9 awakened by the people on duty. I went to replace him --

10 Q. The question was, you don't mention in your statement that the

11 town was taken over. You don't mention that, isn't that correct?

12 A. I didn't know that.

13 Q. You knew that a few days later. You don't mention that a few days

14 later, that you learned that the town was taken over?

15 A. I didn't feel it necessary to mention it because that's well known

16 from other statements.

17 Q. You don't mention in your statement that Serbian police and

18 Serbian volunteers were taking over and controlling the vital buildings

19 and facilities within the town. You don't mention that in your statement.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This line of questioning, Your

23 Honours, is confusing the witness. The question should be whether the

24 witness saw Serbian volunteers, whether he saw police, at facilities,

25 whether he knows that power was taken over, and then these questions can

Page 17748

1 be put to him. This sort of direct question is aimed at confusing the

2 witness rather than establishing the facts. I can clarify this when it's

3 my turn to re-examine but the facts should be established first.

4 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, he's listed six or seven pages of facts

5 in his statement. Those facts have been accepted as an exhibit. I am

6 questioning what he -- I am questioning him about the facts that he has in

7 that statement and on the issue of bias questioning him as to the facts

8 that he has not placed in that statement.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: You ask him whether he knows what happened.

10 MR. WEINER: I've asked him that previously. He's indicated that

11 the Serb police and paramilitaries took over the vital buildings and he

12 learned that on or about April 20th. And now I'm saying to him, a little

13 bit later, you never mention that in your statement, you never mentioned

14 the takeover in your statement and I have a few other questions I'm going

15 to ask him why he didn't -- or that indicate that he has not mentioned

16 those in his statement. Those are significant facts that occurred.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: No. You see, Mr. Weiner, the point is this witness

18 stated the things that are in his statement according to the way

19 he's -- the Defence counsel prepared him. What issues they wanted him to

20 discuss. So you simply ask him whether he knows that those events

21 happened, how they happened.

22 MR. WEINER: Yes, however, Your Honour, these are very important

23 and significant events which occurred in Samac. How can you talk about

24 what happened in Samac without talking about a takeover and I would argue

25 the fact that he doesn't mention that there was a Serbian takeover is a

Page 17749

1 question as to his bias and credibility.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The Trial Chamber does not agree. You simply

3 ask him whether he knows what transpired and who did what and if he says

4 so then you put it to him that he never mentioned it.

5 MR. WEINER:

6 Q. Now, sir --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Because if I may add then you're assuming that every

8 individual in that area of Bosanski Samac knew exactly what was going on

9 regarding the events of the 16th, 17th, who did what, which cannot be

10 correct.

11 MR. WEINER: The fact that he knew that these things happened but

12 didn't mention them, I feel goes to his credibility or bias and these are

13 the most significant facts that occurred during that four day period.

14 He -- in his statement he has no problem talking about I saw Muslim and

15 Croats running through the backyards. I saw Muslims trying to hold a

16 meeting. I saw Muslims trying to do this but does he mention that armed

17 paramilitaries are taking over the town? No.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Ask him whether he saw them.

19 MR. WEINER: It's right in his statement, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: That he saw the paramilitaries taking over?

21 MR. WEINER: No. He doesn't include that. He has no problems

22 saying that he saw the Muslims and Croats in the town. If you look at his

23 statement --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner we already looked at his statement.

25 What I'm saying is he describes what he saw.

Page 17750

1 MR. WEINER: Yes.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: So ask him whether he saw those other people you

3 want him to discuss.

4 MR. WEINER:

5 Q. Sir --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: The fact that he leaves out any other information

7 which you feel he should put in his statement doesn't necessarily mean

8 that he's biased.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour as you know if a defendant or if a

10 Prosecutor does not call certain witnesses, does not refer to certain

11 witnesses, does not refer to certain tests being done either party can

12 argue that it was done for certain reasons and as a result it should

13 affect their case. The failure to call a certain witness does have an

14 effect, whether it's on bias, whether it's on credibility.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: That is a different issue. Here we are discussing

16 what this witness knows, what he stated in his statement, and you can

17 cross-examine him. Ask him what he knows, whom he saw. He has stated the

18 people he saw. Maybe because they were near where he was placed. You ask

19 him how he saw them.

20 MR. WEINER:

21 Q. Sir, you saw Serbian paramilitaries, whether you want to call them

22 volunteers or paramilitaries in the town, those people in the camouflage

23 uniforms speaking in an Ekavian dialect. They even came to your home,

24 isn't that correct?

25 A. No. I didn't see them. Had I known that the Serbian forces were

Page 17751

1 taking over the town, perhaps I wouldn't have taken my children out. I

2 said in my statement I wasn't aware of that until the following

3 afternoon. It was then that I learned what had happened in the town

4 exactly.

5 Q. That's what I'm asking you about. I'm not asking you strictly

6 about the 17th, the 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, the first week, you became

7 aware and you saw Serbian paramilitaries in the town and they came to your

8 home too, isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes but that was on the third day approximately, when weapons were

10 being collected and they didn't enter the houses, they used a loud speaker

11 to call on citizens regardless of their ethnicity, who had weapons, to

12 hand them in. There were all three ethnic groups in my street and we all

13 took out what weapons we had. They didn't enter the houses or mistreat or

14 touch anyone. I could have not taken my weapons out. That was the first

15 time I saw them.

16 Q. So you weren't aware that the Serbian paramilitaries had entered

17 homes and were mistreating people during the first week after the 17th?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You weren't aware that Serbian paramilitaries had entered a home

20 had arrested Izetbegovic and mistreated him, tortured him and even

21 extracted some of his teeth? You weren't aware of that?

22 A. No, I wasn't.

23 Q. You weren't aware that the president of the SDA, Sulejman Tihic,

24 was arrested, beaten, beaten at the police station by Serbian

25 paramilitaries? You weren't aware of that?

Page 17752

1 A. Not in those first days.

2 Q. But you became aware of that later, didn't you?

3 A. I learned that they had been arrested, but that they had been

4 mistreated, I don't know whether this is true or not. I heard that only a

5 year later when I had already left Samac.

6 Q. Sir, having worked for many years with electoral rolls and in

7 elections, were you appalled or confused by what you were learning over

8 that next week about a takeover in Samac, about a government, a Serbian

9 Crisis Staff, appointing itself to be in control of the city? Were you

10 appalled by that?

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic?

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am confused by this question because

13 I think several facts are mentioned in the question, that the Crisis Staff

14 appointed itself, took over control, and in the first part of the

15 question, what is the connection with his work on electoral rolls and

16 elections? Could this be put more clearly and each part separately?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner, can you break up your question and

18 also please remember that the witness did talk about getting involved in

19 elections at the local commune level.

20 MR. WEINER: Yes.

21 Q. Sir, you were involved for many years in electoral rolls and in

22 elections, weren't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Having spent many years involved in democratic style elections,

25 were you not upset, shocked, appalled, by an elected government being

Page 17753

1 removed by force and a Serbian Crisis Staff taking power in Samac?

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object again. The

3 witness has stated several times at which level he knew about the

4 functioning of the government, and elections, now he's being asked about

5 things that happened at municipal level. This should not be connected

6 with his professional knowledge in order to talk about the veracity of

7 this witness. He can be asked this as a citizen but the way this question

8 is put indicates that he knew what the electoral procedure was and he's

9 being asked whether he was shocked at the way that the government was

10 changed at a higher level. He can be asked this as a citizen. And what

11 he feels about it as such.

12 MR. WEINER: Your Honour?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner?

14 MR. WEINER: This person has worked in the election process by his

15 own testimony for 15 years. He was involved in the electoral rolls for 15

16 years.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: At what level?

18 MR. WEINER: At the local commune level. However, regardless of

19 what level it's the local commune of Bosanski Samac which is the town of

20 Samac which is 6.000 people which is the largest town in the municipality.

21 Having worked for so long in the electoral process, he should be able to

22 indicate his view or his feelings based on what happened which was

23 basically an illegal takeover or a coup that occurred in Samac which is in

24 direct violation of what he's been working on for 15 years.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but the point I'm making is that according to

Page 17754

1 his evidence, and what he has stated here, he was involved in the

2 elections at the local commune level. Not at the municipality level.

3 MR. WEINER: Your Honour it makes no difference what level. The

4 fact that you've worked in a democratic system and helped put together a

5 democratic system for many years would make you appalled by some

6 dictatorship takeover and that's all I'm trying to get out, whether it's

7 at a high level or lower level, any level.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, perhaps as an individual citizen who was living

9 in that area, who could have perhaps known what the events -- what events

10 were taking place.

11 MR. WEINER: And also having worked in an electoral process.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Generally, yes.

13 MR. WEINER:

14 Q. Sir, being a citizen of the area of Samac, being a member of the

15 commune, local commune, having worked in the electoral process for 15

16 years, were you not shocked and appalled by what had happened in Samac,

17 the electoral -- the elected government had been removed and a Crisis

18 Staff had taken over the town of Samac?

19 A. I can't answer this question. Firstly, because I didn't know what

20 was happening, whether it was legal or illegal, and later on, when I found

21 out what had happened, I simply accepted it as part of the entirety of

22 what was going on.

23 Q. So when you did find out, it didn't bother you that someone had

24 taken over your town?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

Page 17755

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think the witness has explained

2 everything when he said he didn't know whether it was legal or illegal.

3 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I object. What he's doing is he's

4 cluing the witness what to say.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: No, I don't think so. Let him finish.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm only repeating what

7 the witness said. And now the witness is being asked to respond. The

8 witness is not an expert. He's a fact expert -- he's a fact witness and

9 he said what he thought, and now he's being asked again what he felt about

10 the forcible takeover and he has already stated that he didn't know what

11 -- that he can't answer that question, and now the Prosecutor is

12 insisting on this again.

13 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, he indicated that he found out sometime

14 later, so I'm asking him about sometime later when he found out, he said

15 he accepted it, did it bother him? Did it upset him? Was he appalled by

16 it? He can answer yes, he can answer no.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: But he has said he accepted it so...

18 MR. WEINER: What does that mean? Did it bother him? I think it

19 effects his credibility and I think it goes to his bias, especially when

20 he joins the government after that.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Well go ahead and ask him, for whatever you think

22 his answers will be worth.

23 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

24 Q. Sir, when you then found out sometime later, and you joined the

25 civil protection staff, did it bother you that the elected government was

Page 17756

1 no longer in office and that a Crisis Staff had taken power?

2 A. Well, it did bother me, but I accepted the facts as they were.

3 Q. And you remained there and you stayed in the civilian protection

4 staff of the Samac municipality, of the Serb -- of the Serbian

5 Municipality of Bosanski Samac?

6 A. The staff was not a Crisis Staff. It was a civilian protection

7 staff at the Samac local commune, and it reflected the makeup of the

8 population living in Samac.

9 Q. And the chief of that Crisis Staff was a member -- the chief of

10 that civil protection staff was a member of the Crisis Staff, Miroslav

11 Tadic?

12 A. Whether Tadic was a member of the Crisis Staff, I don't know. I

13 didn't go with him to sessions, nor did I read decisions. I only know

14 that he was able to select a team of eminent citizens with whom he could

15 work to assist the citizens, and that's what I was interested in.

16 Q. You were unaware that your supervisor was a member of the Crisis

17 Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Samac? Is that correct?

18 A. I think that to start with, he was not a member of the Crisis

19 Staff.

20 Q. Were you aware, sir, that your supervisor was working with Blagoje

21 Simic?

22 A. I wasn't aware that he was working with Blagoje Simic.

23 Q. Were you aware that your supervisor, Miroslav Tadic, was working

24 with Simo Zaric?

25 A. No, I wasn't aware of that either.

Page 17757

1 Q. Were you aware that your supervisor and chief of the civilian

2 protection was working with Miroslav Tadic -- I'm sorry, was working with

3 Stevan Todorovic?

4 A. No. I wasn't aware of that.

5 Q. So you weren't aware of what he was doing, sir, isn't that

6 correct? Outside of the civilian protection staff?

7 A. That's correct.

8 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I think it's time for our break now.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will continue at 1100 hours.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner? You can continue.

13 MR. WEINER: Thank you. Good morning again, Your Honours.

14 Q. And good morning, Mr. Volasevic.

15 A. Thank you.

16 Q. You're welcome. Now, you indicated in your statement that you

17 were a member of the 4th Detachment.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you were issued a rifle by the 4th Detachment. Was that an

20 automatic weapon?

21 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. It was a Russian weapon -- so I

22 don't know whether it's automatic or semi-automatic.

23 Q. Were you trained in how to use that weapon, sir?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. And you also had another rifle, too, at your home?

Page 17758

1 A. I had a trophy rifle at home from World War II that had the pin

2 taken out of it.

3 Q. Was that the illegal weapon that you referred to in -- that you

4 gave to the paramilitaries that were collecting weapons?

5 A. This was not an illegal weapon because I had the proper paper work

6 for that rifle.

7 Q. Sir, you state in paragraph 19 of your statement that you had an

8 illegal weapon which you turned over to the paramilitaries indicating to

9 them that that was your 4th Detachment weapon.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And how long had you had that illegal weapon, sir?

12 A. For about 20 years, and it wasn't illegal. I had the proper paper

13 work from the SUP about that, and they were the ones who took the pin out

14 of the rifle and it was a trophy rifle from World War II.

15 Q. Sir, in your statement, you state -- you wrote, "I also had an old

16 rifle which I held illegally." Is that incorrect or was this an illegal

17 weapon? In your statement you indicated that were you holding an illegal

18 weapon which you turned over to the Serb paramilitaries and indicated that

19 was your weapon that you had received from the 4th Detachment. Was that

20 the World War II rifle? Is that the illegal weapon? Or is that -- or did

21 you have a third rifle?

22 A. I didn't have a third rifle. That's the rifle that we are talking

23 about. Maybe there is a misunderstanding in the terminology. Maybe as

24 far as they were concerned that was a rifle that they didn't know I had.

25 Q. Okay. Now, sir, were you aware that Simo Zaric was interrogating

Page 17759

1 residents of Samac concerning the possession of weapons, the possession of

2 illegal weapons? Were you aware of that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did Simo Zaric ever question or interrogate you concerning that

5 rifle which you turned over to the paramilitaries?

6 A. No. I don't think he even knew that I had it. He didn't have any

7 reason to know.

8 Q. Did Simo Zaric -- my question is did Simo Zaric ever question you,

9 sir?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And did Simo Zaric ever contact you and set up an appointment for

12 questioning? For you going to the police station and being questioned,

13 concerning the possession of that rifle?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay. Now, let's continue on a few days later. On or about

16 April 24th, in 1992, Miroslav Tadic comes to see you and says he's placing

17 you on the civilian protection staff and you began working there, isn't

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And were you aware that Miroslav Tadic also had other roles, that

21 he was involved in exchanges?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You were not aware that Miroslav Tadic was involved in the

24 exchange process?

25 A. At the first moment, no, when we started to work with the civilian

Page 17760

1 protection, but later I think I was in Samac when two exchanges were

2 conducted, what -- who was exchanged and who participated in it, is not

3 something that I could tell you.

4 Q. But did you at sometime learn that Miroslav Tadic was involved in

5 the exchanges?

6 A. Yes. After about 20 days or a month, after the civilian

7 protection headquarters began to operate.

8 Q. All right. And did you also learn that Miroslav Tadic was

9 involved in obtaining the release of the Serbian prisoners and residents

10 of Odzak? Were you aware of that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And Miroslav Tadic never told you or told you or the other members

13 of the staff that he had attended any Crisis Staff meetings or that he had

14 met with the Crisis Staff?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So you were only aware of what Tadic was doing when he was with

17 you at the civilian protection staff?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And he never indicated that Crisis Staff had ordered you, as

20 members of the civilian protection staff, to do anything or that the -- or

21 certain comments were being made by the Crisis Staff or that he had

22 reported to the Crisis Staff, he had never discussed that with you, sir,

23 any of those things?

24 A. Not with me personally, no, because I wasn't a member of the

25 staff. I was a technical person there to provide assistance, to help them

Page 17761

1 out. They had their own meetings, they had the meetings with the centre

2 for social work, with the Red Cross, and I did not attend those meetings.

3 Q. Okay. Now, sir, while you're working in April, in May, of 1992,

4 you were aware that non-Serb civilians were being arrested in Bosanski

5 Samac?

6 A. I knew that they were arresting people but they were arresting

7 Serbs too.

8 Q. How many Serbs were being arrested, sir?

9 A. Specifically, I can recall two or three.

10 Q. And how many Muslims and -- I'm sorry, I'm going to strike that.

11 Weren't hundreds of Muslims and Croats being arrested and being held at

12 the TO building, the SUP building, the primary school building, the

13 secondary school building?

14 A. I heard that this was happening but I didn't have access there. I

15 didn't see what was going on.

16 Q. Okay. And you heard that that was happening, were you also aware

17 that Muslims and Croats were being isolated in such places as the high

18 school and at Zasavica, sir?

19 A. I heard about some of them but there were many Muslims with me in

20 the civilian protection, not all of them were taken away. I had Muslim

21 neighbours as well so some were taken away but not all of them but I don't

22 know on what basis they were being taken away. I think this is something

23 that only the municipal authorities knew.

24 Q. Now, had you heard the word "isolation" or isolated being

25 mentioned in May and also in August -- May, June, July, August, in

Page 17762

1 relation to some of these people?

2 A. I'm not sure which people you mean.

3 Q. Some of these Muslims and Croats that were being held in Zasavica

4 and the high school. Do you recall the term "isolation" or being

5 isolated?

6 A. I do but I couldn't really interpret it in its true sense because

7 many people left Zasavica, they would come to my father's village, they

8 would have lunch there, so they were free, and I think that isolation,

9 that that term implies something else.

10 Q. Okay. And at what period were they visiting your father's farm?

11 A. I cannot tell you the exact date, and it wasn't at my father's

12 house, but it was at my father's sister's house, Barjaktarevic would

13 come there every day practically and spend a few hours there resting but I

14 really cannot recall the exact period when this was happening in Zasavica.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you indicated that prisoners, you were aware

16 that prisoners were being held at various facilities. Did you or --

17 actually did the members of the civilian protection staff take any action

18 to aid these non-Serb prisoners that were being mistreated at the SUP,

19 meaning the police station, the Territorial Defence building, the primary

20 school, or the high school?

21 A. I know that we were putting up glass on the elementary school

22 windows because they were all shattered by the shelling. This was

23 initiated by the civilian protection staff. It also launched an action to

24 collect blankets so that we could take them to them so that they would

25 have something to cover themselves with. Everything else was carried out

Page 17763

1 by the municipal authorities. They didn't allow access there. The police

2 was there so we would simply avoid those places.

3 Q. Now, sir, did you bring any medical supplies to this -- did the

4 civilian protection staff bring medical supplies, bandages, underwear,

5 sheets, pillows to any of those facilities? The police station, the

6 Territorial Defence building, the primary school, the secondary school?

7 A. According to what I know, I don't know, but I know that medicines

8 were collected, all surplus that the citizens had and didn't need was

9 collected in one place in town and anyone who needed such medicines would

10 come to the civilian protection and we would send them to the emergency

11 facility where all of these medicines were collected and then they would

12 be given what they needed.

13 Q. So you don't know whether any of these medicines or any of the

14 other goods, pillows, underwear, clothing, were sent to the prisoners, the

15 non-Serb prisoners being held and mistreated at the police station, at the

16 Territorial Defence building, the primary school or the high school? You

17 don't know? Isn't that correct?

18 A. I don't know about it being organised, that's true, but there were

19 a lot of individual cases of Serbs providing their friends with some food

20 or cigarettes, things like that. This is something that I do know.

21 Q. And people were providing food to those non-Serb prisoners because

22 they were starving at the Territorial Defence building, at the high

23 school, at the secondary school and at the police station, isn't that

24 correct?

25 A. We didn't know that, because we didn't have the opportunity to go

Page 17764

1 inside and see what was going on. We didn't know, but we assumed, I

2 myself took cigarettes to my friends with -- whether they had any or did

3 not have any, in any case I did go and take some cigarettes for them just

4 to have in case they wanted them.

5 Q. Sir, when you say we don't know, you never discussed this matter

6 with Miroslav Tadic so you can't answer as to his state of knowledge on

7 whether or not the prisoners, the non-Serb prisoners, were starving at

8 these prison camps or detention facilities?

9 A. I didn't talk to Tadic.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that in a way, there is a

11 trapping set for the witness because I do not wish to impute the answer

12 but the witness couldn't find out about the conditions from Miroslav

13 Tadic. I think this question is asking for a conclusion and it's being

14 put in such a way to bring out an answer but it's actually also placing a

15 trap for the witness. Perhaps it would be good to ask the question from

16 whom did you hear about the conditions in prison? Was this something that

17 was talked about in the town or no -- not?

18 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, that's not my question.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: There is nothing wrong with the question Mr. Weiner

20 has put to the witness and the witness can answer the question.

21 MR. WEINER: And the witness answered that he didn't talk to

22 Mr. -- to the defendant Tadic about that. I didn't talk to Tadic was his

23 answer to my question whether he had -- because he had indicated that --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes the answer is there.

25 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

Page 17765

1 Q. Now, sir, in your statement, you talked about looting in Bosanski

2 Samac, in paragraphs 26 and 28. You talked about stores were empty and

3 were being looted and that other perishable goods were prone to looting.

4 Now, sir, you were aware, you and members of the civilian protection staff

5 were aware that stores and businesses in Samac were being looted, isn't

6 that correct?

7 A. The terminology is not again quite -- there were stores where we

8 had perishable goods, they were not broken into, but we had taken measures

9 knowing that the goods would be spoiled but also at the same time we

10 wanted to prevent anyone from breaking in at night. Mostly we would put

11 away some derivatives, solvents, flammable oils, this is something that we

12 removed because there was shelling several times a day so in order to

13 prevent any consequences and in agreement with --

14 Q. That's not my question. My question is you were aware that stores

15 in Bosanski Samac were being looted?

16 A. No, they were not looted.

17 Q. Sir, paragraph 26 of your statement, these stores were empty and

18 were soon being looted. Nobody could protect them. My question again is,

19 sir, you were aware in Bosanski Samac that stores or businesses were being

20 looted.

21 A. Yes. There were a couple of cases, but not all of them. Three or

22 four shops perhaps and they were not completely looted, only the goods in

23 the windows were taken out.

24 Q. Sir, weren't you aware of extensive looting in Bosanski Samac?

25 A. No.

Page 17766

1 Q. Sir, do you know who Stevan Todorovic is, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Stevan Todorovic has pled guilty here and has admitted, and it's

4 indicated in the sentencing judgement, the wanton and -- he's admitted to

5 the wanton and extensive destruction, plundering and looting of the

6 property of non-Serb civilians, including dwellings, businesses, personal

7 property and livestock. You were not aware of the extensive looting in

8 Bosanski Samac as a member of the civilian protection staff of that

9 community?

10 A. I told you about the local community in my previous answer but I

11 don't know what happened in the wider area of the municipality so I don't

12 know what the events were outside of my area of work.

13 Q. So you weren't aware of the extensive, organised looting campaign

14 in Bosanski Samac of the non-Serb property? Throughout the municipality,

15 sir?

16 A. There was no organised looting on a major scale, as far as I know,

17 in the households in my town, but again I say I don't know what was

18 happening at the level of the municipality.

19 Q. Sir, in document which we are referring to is P127, is a document

20 signed by one of the defendants, Simo Zaric, and it's from the military

21 command of the 2nd Posavina Brigade. On page 4, it's just one, less than

22 a sentence, it says the public looting of shops and private houses with

23 the assistance of members of the military and civilian authorities, that's

24 what it refers to, and a few pages later, on page 8, it indicates

25 organised centres of power on both the municipal and broader republic

Page 17767

1 level are behind organised looting. So you weren't aware of the organised

2 looting throughout the municipality of Samac while you were a member of

3 the civilian protection staff, were you, sir?

4 A. No.

5 Q. The civilian protection staff, however, did discuss -- had to have

6 discussed some part of this problem because they made a plan to inventory

7 and remove these products from businesses throughout the town or -- isn't

8 that correct?

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness in the paragraph -- in

12 paragraph 26, clearly explained the reasons why the property in the shops

13 was inventoried, so it's clear from that what his knowledge was at that

14 time about the extent of the looting. This is a task of the civilian

15 protection where the witness explained why the commissions and the

16 inventories were conducted and this is something -- and why the goods were

17 removed. This has nothing to do with looting. He also explained which

18 period this was done in. When the Prosecutor presented to the witness the

19 document relating to Todorovic and document P127, these are the areas from

20 1992 and 1993, but this is something that was not told to the witness.

21 The witness was only in Samac until September, 1992. So this needed to be

22 explained to the witness, to specify the period about which the witness

23 can provide a relevant answer.

24 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, paragraph 28, other perishable goods or

25 those prone to looting, were listed and then based on these lists,

Page 17768

1 transferred to various depots. It's right in his statement. First

2 sentence, paragraph 28.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes, it's there, yes. So you can go ahead with

4 your questions.

5 Mr. Lukic, the witness has stated what he knows in his statement,

6 as well as in answer to the questions, so please let the Prosecution

7 cross-examine unhindered. The witness will be able to answer what he

8 knows and what he doesn't know.

9 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I understand your decision, Your

11 Honour, and this is why I explained it. The witness was not informed

12 about the period, about which Mr. Todorovic and Mr. Zaric are testifying.

13 This was not told to the witness. The judgement of Mr. Todorovic refers

14 to 1992 and 1993 and talks about organised looting. The document of the

15 13 signatories was written in the fall of 1993, and it speaks about

16 organised looting, and this was not stated by the Prosecutor but then he

17 turns to ask the witness about organised looting in 1992.

18 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we've had a great deal of testimony here

19 concerning organised looting, most of it has been uncontested in this

20 Court. And it's --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps in fairness to the witness as Mr. Lukic it's

22 better to be specific to the times when those other people consented or

23 accepted or admitted that there was organised looting.

24 MR. WEINER:

25 Q. Sir, we've had testimony in this Court concerning looting,

Page 17769

1 extensive organised looting, in the spring of 1992. You indicate that

2 perishable goods prone to looting were inventoried and removed.

3 Therefore, there had to have been some discussion before the civilian

4 protection staff concerning looting in the spring of 1992, isn't that

5 correct?

6 A. Discussions were conducted more or less like this. There was an

7 order to make an inventory, it was an instruction by the executive board,

8 to inventory the goods, to certain goods, to be moved to a certain

9 location, perishable goods to move to another location, so we acted upon

10 those instructions. The other things were done by the organs of the

11 police. They were the ones who dealt with instances of looting or whoever

12 had broken into such facilities and so on. This is something that I

13 didn't have any access to.

14 Q. It would have been done by the police unless the police and the

15 Crisis Staff were involved in this organised looting, isn't that correct?

16 A. That I don't know. All I know is that it's their responsibility

17 to prosecute the perpetrators. This is something that was not dealt with

18 by the civilian protection.

19 Q. And had you ever heard of anyone ever being prosecuted in Bosanski

20 Samac for looting, let alone murder of non-Serb civilians?

21 A. No, I don't know.

22 Q. Now, sir, you said -- you put together an inventory of the various

23 products in the stores and businesses and then these goods and services

24 were all removed, placed on trucks, loaded on to trucks, unloaded off the

25 trucks, placed in the warehouses. Although civilian protection staff was

Page 17770

1 responsible for this, you didn't do the actual work of loading, unloading,

2 storing, all of these goods? You didn't do that heavy lifting, isn't that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Didn't you or other members from the civilian protection staff go

6 downstairs and visit Beg Kapetanovic and Dzevad Celic and ask for workers

7 or labourers to do it?

8 A. Yes. But only after this was approved by the Secretariat for

9 national defence where we requested a certain number of people to help us

10 bring in the goods as per the inventories. I wanted to ask that some of

11 the members of the committee of the civilian protection who were there did

12 help in these activities but it wasn't organised. We didn't all go there.

13 I stayed in the office. Some of the people who were there to receive the

14 goods and hand them over, they were the ones who helped out.

15 Q. Okay. Now, sir, the people who did this work, those were the

16 people who were lining up out in front of the local commune each day,

17 isn't that correct?

18 A. Not at the local commune but it was outside of the pensioners'

19 hall where the Secretariat department was, the branch, the people were

20 waiting outside of there and they were allocated to posts by the people

21 from the Secretariat. We didn't have anything to do with them in our

22 building.

23 Q. That's correct. I'm sorry. Outside of the pensioners' home. And

24 you knew those people, you recognised them, those were your Muslim and

25 Croat neighbours that would be waiting out there each day?

Page 17771

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a correction of the transcript.

3 On page 53, in line 4, the witness said the Secretariat for national

4 defence, but only the Secretariat has been mentioned in the record. We

5 heard him say Secretariat for national defence.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: But I thought that's what it says. Line 3, line 4.

7 It does say Secretariat for national defence.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. Yes. I see, yes,

9 further on it says Secretariat but it's clear what is referred to. Thank

10 you.

11 MR. WEINER:

12 Q. And sir, you needed labourers for other jobs too, such as

13 repairing glass, plumbing, electrical wiring?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you also needed labourers for all types of carpentry work, for

16 repairs to windows, doors, roofs, walls, floors, in damaged buildings and

17 houses?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you had to get materials to do this types of work, glass,

20 wooden boards, doors, window frames, bricks, isn't that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the people who did all of this work wasn't your members of the

23 civilian protection staff. Again, you were members of the civilian

24 protection staff went to beg Kapetanovic, Dzevad Celic, and requested

25 labourers?

Page 17772

1 A. No. The number of labourers we needed, we asked the Secretariat

2 for national defence for those. They would issue us with approval and

3 then we would go to Dzevad to get the people.

4 Q. So you requested first to the Secretariat of national defence and

5 then you went downstairs to Dzevad Celic and Beg Kapetanovic and got the

6 authorised labour?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the people who did that work were those same individuals who

9 were standing out in front of the pensioners' home each day waiting to do

10 work?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

13 MR. WEINER: No further questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic? Re-examination?

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honour, please.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Lukic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Volasevic.

19 A. Good day to you too.

20 Q. I haven't had an opportunity to address you yet. Now I will put a

21 few questions to you which will help us to clarify certain points in the

22 Prosecutor's questions, to clarify some points that the Prosecutor asked

23 you about. I would only like to ask you to wait a little and make a pause

24 after my question so that a question and answer don't overlap.

25 The Prosecutor asked you today about the weapons issued to the

Page 17773

1 local commune because of the duty roster. Who was it who issued the

2 decision to set up a duty roster and to ask for weapons? Whose decision

3 was it?

4 A. It was the council of the local commune extended with a

5 coordinating body that was established a month or two previously in order

6 to calm down the situation in the town, to set up mixed teams, to be on

7 duty, in case anything should happen so that we could intervene on time,

8 and on the basis of this, they decided to ask the Secretariat for weapons

9 for their personal safety.

10 Q. We will not mention names because these are already in your

11 written statement. I will just say that extended coordinating body or

12 rather council, did it include members of all the parties, the political

13 parties, in the Samac municipality who had representatives in the assembly

14 of the Samac municipality? Do you remember whether this included members

15 of the SDS, HDZ?

16 A. I don't know but all the parties that won the elections HDS [as

17 interpreted], HDZ, SDP, SDA and the reform forces, they all had

18 representatives in the coordinating committee or the coordinating body,

19 and they all nominated people to be on duty. Plus the local commune.

20 Q. You mentioned the SDS too. It's not in the record.

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Were members of all the parties and representatives of the

23 citizens part of these duty roster turns?

24 A. Yes, they all responded and they all took their turns.

25 Q. Were all ethnicities represented, both in the coordinating body

Page 17774

1 and in the duty teams?

2 A. Yes. There were never two people together from a single party.

3 They were always from different parties and I myself made sure that this

4 was so.

5 Q. Thank you. The Prosecutor asked you about the takeover of power,

6 and the replacement of the legally elected government. You were asked

7 whether this bothered you. I will ask you, were you bothered by the fact

8 that there was war around Samac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did your family already take shelter somewhere?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The Prosecutor asked you also whether you knew what the

13 relationship was between Blagoje Simic and Miroslav Tadic and their

14 participation in the government. While you were in the civilian

15 protection staff, did you ever see Mr. Blagoje Simic visiting the civilian

16 protection staff?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did Tadic ever inform you what meetings he was attending, who was

19 issuing decisions? Did he tell you about these things?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you. Would you now please look at paragraph 19 of your

22 statement? The Prosecutor asked you about a rifle, whether Zaric

23 questioned you about an illegal rifle, and you explained this word that's

24 mentioned in your statement. You said in line 3 here to the special

25 purpose member who asked you that you were a member of the 4th Detachment

Page 17775

1 and that they had issued you with a rifle; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. After that, the members of the special purpose unit said that

4 regardless of the fact that you were a member of the 4th Detachment, you

5 had to hand over the rifle to them?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And when you handed them this rifle, and said it was an old rifle,

8 did you say that this was the rifle of the 4th Detachment?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. He also asked you, the Prosecutor also asked you

11 concerning your activities as a member of the civilian protection staff in

12 connection with the detainees and you mentioned the blankets and the

13 glass. Do you know that it was the Red Cross that was in charge of taking

14 care of the detainees?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know whether the local Red Cross took medicines and

17 humanitarian aid to the detainees? Do you know anything about this?

18 A. No, I don't know.

19 Q. The Prosecutor also asked you some questions in connection with

20 the inventory of shops and goods and you said that a commission had been

21 established and that you were in it. Do you know who formally issued the

22 decision to establish a committee to seal the shops?

23 A. It was the executive board of the municipality.

24 Q. Was it only civilian protection staff or others who were members

25 of that commission?

Page 17776

1 A. Well, it was also citizens. For example, retired shop keepers who

2 knew how to do this.

3 Q. Do you remember who the President of the commission was for the

4 inventory of the goods in the shops?

5 A. I don't know who the President was but I can tell you the names of

6 the members, Ljubo Vukovic and others.

7 Q. Does the name Mihajlo Tolorovac [phoen] mean anything to you?

8 A. It was Pero Tovjerac. Yes, I know the name. He was a retired

9 shopkeeper. Unfortunately he died later.

10 Q. Do you know that he worked on the inventory?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was this man ever a member of the civilian protection staff?

13 MR. WEINER: I was just going to say the last one was leading,

14 that's all. He was leading the witness.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see.

16 MR. WEINER: This is redirect.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I'll allow it, Mr. Lukic. Please pause because you

18 were overlapping with the witness.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. My question was: Do you know that this man worked -- or rather

21 did this man work in the civilian protection staff while you were there?

22 A. Yes. On making the inventories.

23 Q. Was he a member of the staff, the civilian protection staff?

24 A. No.

25 Q. The Prosecutor asked you concerning the materials and the work

Page 17777

1 that the civilian protection did in connection with buildings, glazing and

2 the labour you needed for this. Do you know whether the civilian

3 protection staff assisted members of all ethnic groups who applied to it

4 for these repairs or was it only for a certain ethnic group?

5 MR. WEINER: Objection, Your Honour. I never raised the issue of

6 ethnicity of the people who were receiving any goods, services, it's

7 outside the scope of cross-examination.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It was contained in the answer so Mr. Lukic,

9 Mr. Weiner is right.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this

11 witness, Your Honour.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I just have one small question, and it concerns

14 what you mention in paragraph 28 of the statement, concerning the last

15 couple of lines, last sentence, in fact, where you mention that if the

16 owner of any of the stores returned, he'd get a copy of the record,

17 presumably from the inventory that would have been made, so that he'd have

18 a basis for requesting either return of his goods or compensation for

19 them, and my query is just as to whether you have any knowledge as to

20 whether this in fact occurred, if somebody returned to Samac, would that

21 person or did that person, to your knowledge, if you know of any cases,

22 get either goods returned or compensation in kind or monetary

23 compensation?

24 A. Is that a question for me?

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. If you could.

Page 17778

1 A. Unfortunately, I spent a very brief time in Samac. I know of no

2 cases while I was there but what happened later, I don't know.

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.

4 A. Thank you too.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you for giving evidence. We are now

6 finished. You may leave the courtroom.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Please make the solemn declaration. Please sit

11 down. Has he made the solemn declaration? Oh, maybe my mike was not on.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Go ahead, make the solemn declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 WITNESS: STOJAN DAMJANOVIC

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please sit down.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Who is examining this witness? Mr. Krgovic?

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I begin, has

22 the Chamber received the corrected statements of this witness?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no.

24 MR. RE: Have these been served on the Prosecution, these

25 corrected statements?

Page 17779

1 JUDGE MUMBA: I think they are coming. I'm talking about the

2 redacted statements, yes. Yes, let's proceed.

3 Examined by Mr. Krgovic:

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Good day, sir. Can you tell us your first and last name?

6 A. Stojan Damjanovic, born on the 14th of February, 1933.

7 Q. Sir, your details have already been entered into the statement

8 that is in front of you so you need not repeat them now.

9 Mr. Damjanovic, just to clarify a point, in the statement you said

10 you were retired. Were you retired before the 16th of April, 1992?

11 A. I retired in 1988.

12 Q. Sir, you stated that you live in --

13 A. Steve Obradovica street number 50.

14 Q. Would you please wait until I put my question and then pause for a

15 few seconds to avoid overlapping? The two of us speak the same language

16 but the interpreters need to interpret for all the other participants in

17 the trial so in order for them to do their work properly, please wait

18 until I finish my question and then pause for a few seconds to avoid

19 overlapping.

20 Have you seen this statement? Is this the statement that you

21 signed in Samac? Mr. Damjanovic, tell me, in the previous paragraph, you

22 said that you saw some men in front of your house at about 9.00 in the

23 morning of the 17th of April. Among these men who were in the street in

24 front of your house, did you see Miroslav Tadic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17780

1 Q. Tell us --

2 A. No, I didn't see him. I saw about ten men but I didn't know who

3 they were, what sort of military they were, but I can assert with

4 certainty that I didn't see Miroslav.

5 Q. Mr. Damjanovic, could you please tell us how far is your house

6 from the house of Miroslav Tadic?

7 A. About 50 to 60 metres, not more than that.

8 Q. And Mr. Damjanovic, when you saw those people, what did they look

9 like? Were they local citizens from the Samac municipality or were they

10 other people?

11 A. They were not locals because they spoke with a Serbian accent, and

12 I could hear that from my window. I could hear them talking. They were

13 in multi-coloured uniforms.

14 Q. Thank you. Did you see what those people were doing? Could you

15 please describe it? Not that part about jumping over -- you already said

16 that in your statement but tell us about the firing.

17 A. There were two piles of bricks in front of my house, one of them

18 fired a couple of bullets in the direction of Miro's or Miroslav's house.

19 This other person commanded him not to shoot, then they searched the

20 medical centre.

21 Q. Just take it slowly, please, Mr. Damjanovic. I will ask you -- I

22 will take you through it event by event but first finish this part about

23 the shooting and then I will ask you the next question. So when you heard

24 and saw this firing, did you see anyone on the balcony of Miroslav Tadic's

25 house?

Page 17781

1 A. Yes. I did. I saw Miroslav and I saw another man, they were

2 waving with a white flag or a cloth. I don't know what because I really

3 couldn't tell what it was. Then the soldiers started --

4 Q. Yes, could you please wait? We'll come to that. Did you hear if

5 Miroslav Tadic was shouting something from the balcony?

6 A. Don't shoot, don't shoot.

7 MR. RE: Almost every question has been leading so far. It's not

8 that difficult, surely.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic, don't lead the witness.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I am trying to take the witness

11 paragraph by paragraph so that he wouldn't just say -- tell things out of

12 order but this is all I'm trying to do but I will try to stick to the

13 instructions of the Trial Chamber.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: You can ask him what he saw, whom he saw, what he

15 heard, when and where.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You saw that this man fired in the direction of Miroslav Tadic's

18 house. At that point, when you saw and heard the shooting, did you hear

19 whether Miroslav Tadic said something? Did you hear anything?

20 A. I just said that. I heard, "Don't shoot, don't shoot." And he

21 was waving. He said that in a loud voice but these people were in front

22 of my house.

23 Q. What else did you see? What did those people do after the firing?

24 A. They went in the direction of the medical centre, they brought out

25 the complete staff of the medical centre, they searched it. This is what

Page 17782

1 they -- their instructions were, and then they went on, they moved on, so

2 I didn't see them any more.

3 Q. Mr. Damjanovic, could you please -- now I will give you a piece of

4 paper so if you're able to, could you please sketch the position of your

5 house and these facilities that you mentioned as well as the location of

6 Miroslav Tadic's house so that we could get a clear picture of where you

7 were and -- Mr. Damjanovic, to your right there is a pen and a piece of

8 paper, so could you please sketch your street, draw your street, and your

9 house, in the order that I ask you to. Please draw your street first and

10 the location of your house.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Please could you draw your house?

13 A. Just my house?

14 Q. For now, yes, just your house. One location by one location.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. In relation to your house, could you please draw the house of

17 Miroslav Tadic?

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Next to your house, could you please put the number 1?

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And next to Miroslav Tadic's house, could you please put a number

22 2, mark it with a number 2?

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Between your house and Miroslav Tadic's house, are there any other

25 houses?

Page 17783

1 A. No. There are no houses in between.

2 Q. In this street, the street of D Obradovic, are there any houses

3 next to yours?

4 A. Yes, there are.

5 Q. Could you please draw them? I'm talking about the other side, the

6 side that is in the direction of Miroslav Tadic's house.

7 A. [Marks]

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please move

9 into private session? Because we are going to mention a protected

10 witness.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can we go into private session?

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 17784

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The sketch drawn by the witness,

22 could it please be given an ID number and then we will have it translated

23 because of the marking of the street? The witness has written on one of

24 the houses, that it is Miroslav Tadic's house, so we would like to then,

25 after it is translated, admit that, tender that into evidence.

Page 17785

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will mark it for identification.

2 THE REGISTRAR: This sketch will be treated as document D186/3 ter

3 ID.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Damjanovic, could you please tell us, did you see a tank that

7 morning in your street?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. Mr. Damjanovic, where did these people go afterwards?

10 A. They went to the right, down a street that led to the centre.

11 Q. Mr. Damjanovic, could you please tell me, later, during that day,

12 did you see Miroslav Tadic?

13 A. I heard him again up there on the balcony.

14 Q. Do you know when this was?

15 A. Perhaps at about 2.30 or 3.00, but I wasn't really paying

16 attention to the time. I was just worried that the shells would kill us.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. Could you please tell us, those people in

18 the camouflage uniforms, did they come back later?

19 A. Yes, they did, and they were collecting weapons from the houses.

20 Q. Thank you so much. Did they enter your house and did they ask you

21 for weapons?

22 A. No, they didn't. At that point, my son arrived from Pisari. He

23 loaded us up into the car and took us over there because the shells had

24 already started falling but my neighbours, also relatives, and my uncles

25 houses, they took weapons from them.

Page 17786

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, the matters where you're supposed to

2 lead the witness, are those contained in paragraphs 7 up to 11, and there

3 is nothing about collection of weapons.

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I was about to stop the

5 witness because all I wanted to ask is whether the men in the camouflage

6 uniforms returned back and he started to reply but I was just about to

7 stop him, to ask him to finish his answer.

8 Q. Mr. Damjanovic, I don't need to hear any more than that. All I

9 was asking is whether those people had returned and whether later, when

10 you were there, were there any -- was there a tank there during the time

11 that you were there on the 17th?

12 A. No, there was no tank.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

14 questions for this witness.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the Prosecution?

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Re:

17 MR. RE: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Damjanovic, I'm going to ask you some questions from the

19 Prosecution, my name is David Re. Good morning. You're here to give

20 evidence for the defendant, Mr. Miroslav Tadic?

21 A. Very well.

22 Q. You've known Mr. Tadic for a long time, haven't you, sir?

23 A. I've known him for perhaps 30 years.

24 Q. At the time, just before the war, he had a cafe called Cafe AS,

25 were you a customer of his at Cafe AS?

Page 17787

1 A. Yes, I was.

2 Q. Were you or have you been a member of a political party?

3 A. Never. Not even today. Other than the fact that I was a member

4 of the League of Communists for a long time in the old Yugoslavia, during

5 the time of Tito, but I was never a member of any other party, not during

6 the war and not after the war either.

7 Q. Although you say although you weren't a member of any political

8 party, in the year before the war, that is 1991 to 1992, beginning of the

9 war, I'm sorry, did you --

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you --

12 A. No.

13 Q. Can you please wait until I finish my question, sir?

14 A. Yes, very well.

15 Q. During the period, the one year immediately before the war started

16 in April, 1992, did you undertake any political activities, that is help a

17 political party in any way? Campaigning, canvassing, attend meetings,

18 anything like that?

19 A. No, I didn't, because I'm an invalid, I'm retired, I was looking

20 after my grandchildren, I was looking after the house. I didn't attend

21 any meetings. Nobody invited me to do so. I wasn't a military conscript.

22 I wasn't a member of anything. So --

23 Q. Thank you, sir. When you said you have known Miroslav Tadic for

24 30 years, is he a friend of yours?

25 A. What can I say? We saw one another infrequently. We didn't visit

Page 17788

1 each other's homes and we didn't go out and sit in restaurants together

2 either but we did know one another.

3 Q. Would you consider yourself to be a long time acquaintance of

4 Miroslav Tadic's?

5 A. Yes, of course, and that's what I said.

6 Q. Would you say that you had similar politics or political beliefs

7 in 1992?

8 A. I didn't understand this question.

9 Q. Your political beliefs, you would have had some political beliefs

10 in 1992. Do you know whether they were the same as Miroslav Tadic's?

11 A. No. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. I wasn't in

12 any party. I wasn't called to go anywhere. So I can't really tell you

13 anything in response to this question because I don't know anything.

14 Q. Mr. Simo Zaric, another accused over there, you know him too,

15 don't you?

16 A. Yes, I do. He was the director in the company where I worked for

17 a long time, so I do know him.

18 Q. You've known him for many, many years, is he a friend or an

19 acquaintance of yours?

20 A. An acquaintance. We are not -- we don't visit one another at home

21 so he can only be an acquaintance.

22 Q. What about the third accused over there, Dr. Blagoje Simic? You

23 know who he is too, don't you?

24 A. Who?

25 Q. Dr. Blagoje Simic.

Page 17789

1 A. I know him as well, but we are not family, we are not friends, we

2 never sat down anywhere together.

3 Q. You said a moment ago you weren't a conscript. Do you mean by

4 that that you weren't a member of the reserve of the JNA as of the first

5 four months of 1992?

6 A. I was neither a -- liable for military service nor was I a member

7 of any military.

8 Q. And in 1992, that is the first few months or at least leading up

9 to the events of the 17th of April, were you aware of Mr. Tadic being a

10 member of the JNA, the 4th Detachment?

11 A. No. I didn't go out. I don't know who was where or who did

12 what. I was never invited to any meetings, anywhere, for me to find out

13 who was who and who was doing what.

14 Q. You said you were a customer of his cafe. You just said you

15 didn't go out. You had to go out to go to his cafe, didn't you?

16 A. Not during the war. I didn't go to cafes during the war. I

17 didn't dare leave the house.

18 Q. Sir I was asking you about before the war, up to the 17th of

19 April. I asked you about Mr. Tadic before the 17th of April. Can you

20 please just cast your mind back to that? Were you aware in that period,

21 in case there is any confusion, that Mr. Tadic was in the JNA, in the 4th

22 Detachment?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Were you mobilised during the war?

25 A. No, I wasn't.

Page 17790

1 Q. Were you given a work obligation?

2 A. I beg your pardon?

3 Q. Were you given, after the 17th of April, 1992, a work obligation?

4 A. No, nobody over 60 was given a work obligation and I was over 60

5 at the time.

6 Q. I thought you were born in 1933. That would have made you 59 in

7 1992, wouldn't it, sir?

8 A. Well, I'm an invalid. Nobody made me work or do anything.

9 Q. In 1992, as of the 17th of April, did you own your house in

10 Bosanski Samac?

11 A. I never left Samac. I did go down to the basement, fleeing from

12 the shelling, but I never left my house. I can say that.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting. The

14 witness is hard of hearing and is wearing a hearing aid. Perhaps the

15 volume can be turned up. The witness often doesn't understand the

16 question, which is the reason for the misunderstandings and the

17 inappropriate replies.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Perhaps the hearing will now improve.

19 MR. RE:

20 Q. Mr. Damjanovic, can you hear me clearly? Can you hear the

21 translation of what I'm saying clearly?

22 A. Yes, yes, I can.

23 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... it better than a moment

24 ago?

25 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nodded.

Page 17791

1 MR. RE:

2 Q. Your nodding means yes?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Sir, my question, what I want to ask you is about your house. Did

5 you own it on the 17th of April, 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you stay, did you remain in Samac, for the duration of the

8 war?

9 A. Throughout the war.

10 Q. Did you live there with your wife during the war?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. During the war, did other people such as refugees, come to stay in

13 your house?

14 A. No. We had two shelters. My house was not as well constructed so

15 we went to those basements when there was shelling.

16 Q. I'm just asking you about people staying in your house during the

17 war and of course you're still living there and you kept your house, no

18 one took it from you during the war, did they, sir?

19 A. Nobody stayed with me in my house. I was there, my wife, our

20 daughter-in-law and two grandchildren. There are two rooms in the house,

21 nobody could have stayed with us.

22 Q. No one ever forced you to leave your house and go for an exchange

23 somewhere, did they, sir?

24 A. No. No one did.

25 Q. Was your wife at home with you on the morning of the 17th of

Page 17792

1 April, 1992?

2 A. Yes, she was. She was there. She was there.

3 Q. Your statement says that you heard shooting during the night, in

4 the morning you saw someone's body, the body of someone you knew, and then

5 you saw ten soldiers in camouflage uniform very close to your house and

6 these people weren't locals.

7 A. That's what I said in my statement and that's how it was.

8 Q. Given these things that happened, shooting, non-locals, armed,

9 bodies in the street, you did what was -- you did what was -- you took

10 precautionary measures and you stayed indoors, didn't you?

11 A. That's correct. I didn't hear shooting in the night. I didn't

12 say that. But in the morning, at 5.30, when this man was killed, who was

13 brought to the health centre, his son fired a few shots there and his

14 other son was a doctor in the health centre and he said they've killed my

15 father. That's what it should say in my statement.

16 Q. Now, having heard shots, seen a body, seen --

17 A. I didn't see the body, because it was still dark.

18 Q. So your statement says I saw that the body of Ilija Vukovic, a

19 driver from Buducnost whom someone had shot had been transported to and

20 placed outside the health centre?

21 A. Buducnost.

22 Q. Hang on, hang on.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re, in fairness to the witness you should read

24 the words before that. Because he does say sometime later when it got a

25 bit lighter. Paragraph 4.

Page 17793

1 MR. RE: Maybe we are at complete cross-purposes here. I am only

2 asking him about seeing a body. I don't really care when he saw it.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: No, but in fairness it's better if you're quoting to

4 quote what is before because it relates to what time he saw it.

5 MR. RE:

6 Q. Certainly, sir, your statement says sometime later when it got a

7 bit lighter I saw that the body of Ilija Vukovic, a driver from Buducnost,

8 whom someone had shot had been transported to and placed outside the

9 health centre located close to my house. All I'm asking you is -- that's

10 correct, isn't it?

11 A. That's correct. That's why I said I didn't see him being taken

12 out but I saw him being put in the car and taken home, and it was already

13 day light then.

14 Q. Thank you, sir. What I'm interested in is what you did

15 afterwards. Not what happened before. Now, at that stage, there was a

16 body -- you'd seen a body outside, heard shooting, seen soldiers with

17 foreign accents very close to your house. You stayed indoors. Did you

18 telephone anyone?

19 A. Did I what?

20 Q. Did you -- can you hear me clearly, sir?

21 A. I can hear now. Could you repeat that, please?

22 Q. After all those things had happened, did you telephone anyone to

23 find out what was going on?

24 A. No way.

25 Q. Was that because the telephones weren't working or because you

Page 17794

1 didn't want to telephone anyone?

2 A. There was no one I could have phoned. What would I say? We were

3 all confused. There were attacks, there was shelling. I did have a

4 telephone. It was operational but I didn't call anyone.

5 Q. You said these people came to search your house for weapons. Did

6 you own any weapons at that time? That is the 17th of April, 1992.

7 A. I didn't say they came to search my house. I own a pistol, 765,

8 and I've had it since 1974 but I never said they searched my house because

9 when they came along collecting weapons I was already in my son's car, and

10 the house was locked up.

11 Q. Do we take it from that that you kept your pistol because the

12 soldiers didn't come into your house because you weren't there?

13 A. I still have it. I've kept it.

14 Q. The soldiers, as far as you know, came to your house to find out

15 whether you had any weapons. That's from what you heard later, isn't it?

16 A. They couldn't have come because the house was locked up. When

17 they were at my relatives, and my uncle's I was already in the car when

18 they passed by my house. They didn't enter the house and they didn't

19 search it. They couldn't have found it because I had it with me.

20 Q. Sir, did you not hear my question clearly? My question was coming

21 to your house, not going into it. I'm just trying to establish clearly

22 what you saw. Did you see soldiers come to your door and seeing there was

23 no one -- knock on the door, no one answered it so they went away? Is

24 that what you saw?

25 A. I didn't see that because there is a big iron gate in front of my

Page 17795

1 house. I saw them coming out of other houses and going in the direction

2 of my house but I was in the car already. They didn't search the car.

3 And they were not able to enter the house.

4 Q. These soldiers you saw, were they -- the men in the camouflage

5 uniform or local soldiers or a mixture?

6 A. Only camouflage uniforms. They -- their faces were painted as

7 well. There were no local people there, not a single one. There were

8 about ten of them. They were carrying weapons. And so they passed by.

9 Q. They didn't go into your house, you said you saw them go into some

10 other houses. Did you actually see them go into the houses or just the

11 yards?

12 A. Further on from my house, I didn't see anything because I left in

13 the car. But up to my house, I've just said my uncle's house and my

14 relatives' house they went into the yards, they collected the weapons, put

15 the weapons on their backs and went on. Is that sufficient? Because

16 that's how it was.

17 Q. What sort of artillery support did they have with them, these nine

18 or ten soldiers in camouflage with blackened faces?

19 A. How can I explain it?

20 Q. What did you see? That's all I want to know. What did you see?

21 A. Well, I saw about ten of them in camouflage uniforms with masked

22 faces. I didn't see anything else. I saw them carrying rifles slung over

23 their shoulders.

24 Q. Did these soldiers ever come back to your house when you returned

25 to Samac several days later?

Page 17796

1 A. No, never.

2 Q. Did any police ever come to your house, as far as you know, local

3 police, looking for weapons?

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. When did you find out that there had been an ethnic takeover by

6 Serb forces of Bosanski Samac, sir?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. When you say you don't know, is it that you can't remember?

9 A. It's not that I can't remember. I really don't know. I told you

10 I didn't attend any political meetings or rallies and I don't know.

11 Q. Sir, you said you left home on the 17th of April and came back

12 maybe six days later. Were you aware by then when you came back that

13 there had been a Serb takeover of the town you'd been living in for many

14 years?

15 A. I heard all sorts of things but I didn't see that myself so I

16 can't say anything about it.

17 MR. RE: It's 12.30, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will take our break and continue at 12.50.

19 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re. It's only about two, three minutes.

22 MR. RE: I only have that area to cover which is what happened on

23 the morning, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but you have to do it within your time.

25 MR. RE:

Page 17797

1 Q. Mr. Damjanovic, you at the moment you live on the name of the

2 street you live on is Dositej Obradovic Street, correct, yes or no?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was it formerly called Ulica Bulevar Revolucije Street; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And sir, you live between Djure Djakovica Ulica and Djure Putkara

8 Sterok [phoen]; is that correct?

9 A. Djure Djakovica Street is at right angles to my street but the

10 other one, no, it's not between those two streets. Maybe there is this

11 other street over there but I don't remember exactly. They changed the

12 name several times.

13 Q. Sir, I just want to show you a diagram.

14 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown, I have a blownup copy

15 of D27/3. Please put that on the ELMO and have a look at it, sir.

16 Q. Sir, you recognise that as a map of Bosanski Samac with street

17 names as they were in 1992, don't you? Sir? Mr. Damjanovic, can you hear

18 my question?

19 A. Yes, yes, I hear you. I know Samac, yes. Here near the stadium

20 is where my house is.

21 Q. Sir, my question is, you recognise that as a map of Samac with the

22 old street names from 1992, that's all, please quickly look at it, agree

23 with me and put it down.

24 MR. RE: Your Honour, I can't ask the questions in those two or

25 three minutes. I just want him to mark on the map something.

Page 17798

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Go ahead.

2 MR. RE:

3 Q. Do you have a pen there, sir? Please take the pen and put a

4 little box on it in red and mark 1 where your house is, please. First, do

5 you agree that the medical centre as marked on that map is between your

6 house and Mr. Tadic's house, isn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Now please mark with a 1 where your house is, draw a

9 little square.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. It's the wrong street, sir. Look for Ulica Bulevar Revolucije.

12 It runs from left to right through the middle of the map. That's the

13 right street where your hand is.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. You say by that can we see that your house is diagonally opposite

16 the medical centre? Is that the position? Is your house on the same side

17 of the street as the medical centre or diagonally opposite?

18 A. It's in the direction. It's on the same line.

19 Q. Is it on the same side of the street, sir? That's all I'm asking

20 you.

21 A. On the same side, yes, yes.

22 Q. Right. Can you see where medical centre is marked on that map,

23 sir? Immediately to the left of the words "Ulica Bulevar Revolucije"?

24 No, up, up, up, up, up. Move your hand up?

25 MR. RE: Your Honour, could I assist perhaps by pointing it out to

Page 17799

1 him?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

3 MR. RE:

4 Q. Sir, just be quiet for a moment. You see Ulica Bulevar

5 Revolucije? You see the medical centre there?

6 A. Medical centre.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. Then I'm here.

9 Q. Where my pen is.

10 A. The stadium is not in front. I think my house should be here, and

11 then the Tadic house.

12 Q. There is the SIT factory sir, you see? And there, just move your

13 finger is Edvarda Kardelja Street, there, see? And your street goes

14 there, that way, is your house there where my pen is?

15 A. Here. This is the stadium. This is my house. But it should

16 be -- the street should be here.

17 MR. RE: I'm sorry, I didn't hear Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe the witness cannot orient himself on the

19 map and the point is what is the Prosecution contesting? Is it that his

20 diagram not correct as to where he placed the things that he was asked

21 to mark?

22 MR. RE: [Microphone not activated] The only diagram is

23 incorrect --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.

25 MR. RE: The earlier diagram is incorrect according to other

Page 17800

1 witnesses' evidence of where this witness's house is and where Mr. Tadic's

2 house is, which impacts upon what he could have seen and the shooting.

3 That's all I'm trying to get him to do is to put on the diagram which is

4 in evidence where his house is and where Mr. Tadic's one is so that we can

5 have a proper view of what he could have seen and where the soldiers were

6 shooting from, according to the diagram which is already agreed to be a

7 correct one and is in evidence. The diagram in evidence has the medical

8 centre marked on it, it has the SIT factory marked on it, I just want him

9 to put his house on it, Tadic's house on it, and the pile of bricks where

10 he saw the soldier shooting from on it so we are all clear on the same

11 diagram exactly where the witness was. That's all.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: It depends on whether he can find his way.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that this

14 witness cannot orient himself on the map so there is no point in asking

15 him this. When preparing him to draw the diagram, I explained to him how

16 it can be done but perhaps the Prosecutor can ask him to describe the

17 situation. I think that might be the better way.

18 MR. RE: My learned friend introduced into evidence a diagram of

19 this witness in which his house according to his own description, is in

20 the wrong place. If the medical centre is to the left, the medical centre

21 has to be between those two streets, Djure Djakovica and Edvarda Kardelja,

22 which means his house has to be in the next block which takes it further

23 away I'm -- we're talking about the line of fire towards Mr. Tadic's house

24 and whether the shots were actually fired at Mr. Tadic's house or just in

25 the direction of Mr. Tadic's house. And if it's on the diagram it would

Page 17801

1 be obvious for everyone. I'm sure the witness who has already drawn a

2 diagram if given and moment can see that the river is on the left, the

3 school is on the right, his house must be facing one way because he lives

4 there and has for many years. Maybe it might just take him a moment to

5 orient himself but I'm sure he can do it. In my submission --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Let's see if he can do it. I'm sure he

7 has had sometime to look at the map now.

8 MR. RE:

9 Q. Mr. Damjanovic, are you now more familiar with this map?

10 A. In the direction of the school, the street that is now called

11 Dositej Obradovic street runs right next to the health centre. My house

12 is on the same side as the health centre and the stadium is opposite. I

13 cannot orient myself here but Miro's house is in the street which I think

14 was called Djure Djakovica which runs towards the centre and it's at right

15 angles to my house and I could see everything from my window in a diagonal

16 line.

17 Q. You said your house is opposite the stadium. You can see the

18 stadium there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please --

21 A. Yes, yes. So I've drawn it here. Here is the stadium. Then my

22 house, medical centre, then my house is here, if this is the street.

23 Q. That's right.

24 A. Then it's right here.

25 Q. That's not on the same side as the medical centre?

Page 17802

1 A. About halfway down the stadium.

2 Q. That's not on the same side as the medical centre?

3 A. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. It's on the same side as the medical

4 centre.

5 Q. But not as marked on the map. You're saying the medical centre

6 is on the wrong place on the map?

7 A. If it's marked and the street is also marked.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... M-e-d-i-c that's right there?

9 A. Medical centre.

10 Q. There, there, yeah.

11 A. And this is where my house is. Between the medical centre and me,

12 there are two narrower houses and then there is the medical centre and

13 Tadic's house is in the street leading straight to the centre of the town

14 and I could see everything nicely from my window.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the Prosecutor tell the

16 witness to mark the place where his house is?

17 MR. RE: Yes, I want him to.

18 Q. Please, sir, could you please mark your house which you say is on

19 the same side as the medical centre and opposite the stadium?

20 A. Correct, yes, then it's right here, that's how it comes out, if

21 that's the medical centre then here is my house.

22 Q. Please mark it on.

23 A. Yes, I have, I have.

24 Q. Please put a 1 in it and cross out the one down at the bottom.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 17803

1 Q. All right. Know please mark on the map --

2 A. I have, I have.

3 Q. Thank you. With a 2, where Mr. Tadic's house was, or is.

4 A. It should be here.

5 Q. All right. Now, please mark with a 3 where you say the soldiers

6 were behind the pile of bricks?

7 A. Here, in front of the stadium.

8 Q. Please just mark with a 3 on the map, sir. That's all I want you

9 to do.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. The stadium is to your left, sir, you see where the word stadium

12 is?

13 A. Yes, yes, I see.

14 Q. Where you've marked is no where near the stadium, sir. It's near

15 the school.

16 A. But this is right next to my house. That's where I saw them.

17 Q. Okay. Well, if that's where you saw it, just leave it there.

18 Okay. You've now moved it, okay, can you please just write your name on

19 this diagram on the top right, just please write --

20 A. Where?

21 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... in a white space, not in

22 the photocopied bit but just in a white space, a clear space.

23 A. Here?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. What do you need -- should I put my phone number as well?

Page 17804

1 Q. No, the date is fine, 31 March 03, is fine. Just the date.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you, sir.

4 MR. RE: Might that be tendered into evidence, please?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have it marked, please?

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could it please be noted for the

7 record that today is the 31st and could it be noted that today the witness

8 made the markings?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's dated the 31st, isn't it?

10 MR. RE: It's dated the 30th, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: He can correct it. It's supposed to be the 31st.

12 MR. RE:

13 Q. Sir, you put yesterday's date on it. Could you please just write

14 today's date?

15 A. Should I cross this out?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. RE:

18 Q. Sir, all you can say from those soldiers shooting is that they

19 were shooting in the general direction of Mr. Tadic's house?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. And when he called out, don't shoot me, did you hear him say

22 something like don't shoot me, I'm a Serb, I'm a Serb?

23 A. No. He didn't. He was just waving as I said with this white

24 cloth and said, "Don't shoot" and then this man who was behind those other

25 soldiers ordered them not to fire in that direction any more.

Page 17805

1 Q. They, like you, could see who the person on the balcony was. If

2 you could recognise him they could also recognise the person if they knew

3 him, couldn't they?

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour, calling for

5 speculation.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.

7 MR. RE:

8 Q. And sir, after he called out don't shoot, the soldiers didn't go

9 into his house, they went somewhere else, didn't they?

10 A. They went to the medical centre, to search it.

11 Q. Of course the evidence you've given evidence is entirely from

12 memory because you didn't make any notes at the time as to dates or the

13 things you saw or times; is that correct?

14 A. No. I didn't.

15 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination?

17 Re-examined by Mr. Krgovic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Damjanovic, I'm going to ask you a couple of

19 questions. Do you remember well that day when war broke out in Bosanski

20 Samac? This is not something that happens every day.

21 A. Do I remember the date?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. The 17th of April.

24 Q. And do you remember those events that happened on that day?

25 A. Well, yes, all that I mentioned in the statement, that's all.

Page 17806

1 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you the following:

2 Between your house and the house of Miroslav Tadic, are there any

3 buildings which would block your view or is that a clear space?

4 A. No. There are no buildings. It's a clear space.

5 Q. And now just one small detail in your description to the

6 Prosecutor when he asked you about these people, about the search of

7 weapons and who had the weapons confiscated from them. What was the

8 ethnicity of your neighbours whose weapons were confiscated?

9 A. Well, if I can say it freely, they were Serbs, Orthodox Serbs.

10 MR. RE: I object to this. I did not ask him that. I asked him

11 about -- he told us about his uncle and a relative, I didn't ask him about

12 neighbours.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic, that wasn't raised, the ethnicity

14 of his neighbours.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I am asking him about these people.

16 They are his neighbours and his relatives.

17 Q. Your relatives who had the weapons confiscated and whom you

18 mentioned in your reply to the Prosecutor, were they Serbs?

19 A. Yes, Radovan and Nenad.

20 Q. Do you know their last names?

21 A. Their last names? Yes, yes, of course, they are both called

22 Djurdjic.

23 Q. And the Prosecutor showed you the map and the Dositej Obradovic

24 Street. What is the neighbourhood that you live in called?

25 A. The 3rd neighbourhood. That was the name of it. Unless something

Page 17807

1 has changed.

2 Q. So it's not the 4th, is it? What about the area where Miroslav

3 Tadic's house is? What is the name of that neighbourhood?

4 A. I don't know.

5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this

6 witness, Your Honours.

7 MR. RE: I don't think the map has been tendered into evidence

8 yet, Your Honour, or given a number.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought the Registry assistant was still searching

10 for the number. Can we have the number please?

11 THE REGISTRAR: I'm afraid I was given to chance. This map will

12 be treated as Exhibit P171. Thank you.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes, Mr. Damjanovic, I just have two questions

15 for you. I presume you can hear me. You can hear me?

16 A. Yes, yes, I can.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you. The first question relates to

18 paragraph 12 in your statement, where you state that later in the day, on

19 the 17th of April, 1992, your son came from the village of Pisari and took

20 you with him to Pisari where you stayed for a few days. Now, I am just

21 wondering when you left by car with your son, you've told us this

22 afternoon that you had your pistol with you at that time. Am I correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. What I want to know is, on the trip from

25 town in Samac to Pisari, were you stopped at any checkpoints by soldiers

Page 17808

1 of some description?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you. That's the first question. The

4 second question relates to something that the Prosecutor asked you

5 concerning whether you had any work duty or work obligation during the

6 war, after April 17th, 1992. And you said no. What I'd like to know is:

7 Did other members of your family have work obligation? For example your

8 wife, your son, your daughter-in-law?

9 A. The wife did not. My daughter-in-law went with my son. My son

10 had to go to Germany. He was there for medical treatment so she went with

11 him and that's where they stayed. My younger son was engaged on the line

12 and he was there for a while. After that he was released and then he also

13 went to Germany but none of us had work obligation.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.

15 A. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you for giving evidence to the Tribunal. We

17 are finished. You may leave the courtroom.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before the next witness

21 comes in, could we please move to private session so that I could make one

22 request?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we move to private session?

24 [Private session]

25 [redacted]

Page 17809

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Page 17812

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

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5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber is of the view that on the

19 basis of the explanation from the Defence counsel, the Trial Chamber is --

20 has accepted to grant a pseudonym and facial distortion to the witness.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may suggest, the witness be given

22 the pseudonym TW 8/3 [as interpreted]. [In English] I said D. D.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: In which case, identifying marks will be redacted

24 from his statement.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you. This is what I

Page 17813

1 wanted to suggest as well. I've already informed the Prosecutors, Your

2 Honour. I have a small correction to his written statement which we

3 discovered when we were doing the proofing. In paragraph 9, the last

4 sentence states, "1992." And the witness, and I explained that to the

5 Prosecutor, was on work obligation throughout 1993. So the correction is

6 made to the year. If necessary, I will make an annex in -- a written

7 annex to the statement and provide that to the Chamber, correcting that

8 year in that paragraph of the witness's statement.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't see why it can't be corrected on the record

10 so that we have 1993 instead of 1992.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please make the solemn declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 WITNESS: WITNESS DW 8/3

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Please sit down.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go back into open session

20 now that the witness has come in?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have copies of the redacted

23 statement for the Chamber and the Registry.

24 THE REGISTRAR: We are already in open session.

25 Examined by Mr. Lukic:

Page 17814

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, sir.

2 A. Good day.

3 Q. Can you hear me well?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Before the beginning of your testimony, I will tell you that the

6 Trial Chamber has granted you protective measures. You will be given a

7 pseudonym. Your details will be known only to the Chamber and the

8 participants in this trial. You have been granted facial distortion so

9 that your identity cannot be established outside this courtroom. I would

10 like to ask you not to mention your name and the name of your family

11 members. If it is necessary to mention these names we will go into

12 private session, but all the details concerning your identity are known to

13 the Trial Chamber from your written statement so we need not discuss this

14 here. Do you understand all this?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The Trial Chamber also has before it your written statement

17 describing in detail your stay in Samac before and during your

18 detainment. We have entered the correction saying that you had work

19 obligation from 1963 [as interpreted]. And now I will put questions to

20 you?

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter corrects herself, 1993.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. We will now talk to two parts of your statement that we have

24 already discussed. Your stay in Batkovic and your exchange. The first

25 thing I will ask you, sir: Did all of you who were in Samac together,

Page 17815

1 where you were, and you can tell the Chamber, because it's not in the

2 record where you were detained in Samac, were you all taken to Batkovic?

3 A. In Samac, I was detained in the SUP for five months, and about ten

4 days. On the 27th of November, we were all taken to Batkovic.

5 Q. Will you tell the Chamber how many of you prisoners were taken

6 from Samac to Batkovic?

7 A. About 150 or 180, around that number.

8 Q. Tell me, sir, all of you from Samac or rather the detainees from

9 Samac who were taken to Batkovic, were you all placed in the same hangar?

10 A. There were two hangars, one next to the other. In the left-hand

11 one, there were perhaps about 90 per cent of us, and the rest were in the

12 other one.

13 Q. I will now ask you about several of your fellow citizens and

14 please tell me if they were in the same hangar as you in Batkovic. Do you

15 know a man named Ibrahim Salkic, known as Ibela, was he with you?

16 A. Yes, I know him and he was in the hangar together with me.

17 Q. Kemal Mehinovic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Reuf Hadziabdic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Izet Hamusevic [phoen]?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Salko Porobic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I am especially interested in a fellow citizen of yours. Did you

Page 17816

1 know a man named Sabah Seric?

2 A. Yes, I knew him. He is related to me.

3 Q. Excellent. That's what we need in order to identify him fully.

4 Do you know his father's name?

5 A. Yes, I do. He bears the same first name as me, [redacted].

6 Q. This Sabah Seric, did he have a nickname?

7 A. Yes, they called him Sanak [phoen].

8 Q. Do you know where he worked before the war?

9 A. Yes. He worked in the iron work store.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the part of the record where the

11 witness mentioned his name be redacted, please?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It will be.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Don't mention your name by any means.

15 Tell us: In Samac, at the time, you said that the man was related

16 to you. Was there another Saban Seric in Samac, was there another Seric

17 with a same or similar first name of Sabah?

18 A. No. There was only one Sabah Seric. As for Safet, Safet was his

19 brother, who was killed in a traffic accident.

20 Q. Was this before the war that his brother was killed?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. I think we have clarified some points now.

23 Sir, do you remember in the period while you were in the Batkovic

24 camp, how many exchanges were organised?

25 A. I remember the 6th of January, 1993, because --

Page 17817

1 Q. Just a moment, please. I know what you want to say, but I don't

2 want you to say this because of your identity. Do you remember that there

3 was an exchange on that date? That's all I want to know. We know why.

4 A. I remember my exchange on the 29th of January, 1993. I know that

5 towards the end of December, there was an exchange in 1992. But I don't

6 remember the exact date.

7 Q. On those occasions, the three occasions you mentioned, when

8 exchanges were organised, do you remember whether on those occasions you

9 saw Miroslav Tadic? But first, I will ask you, did you know Miroslav

10 Tadic before the war?

11 A. Yes, I did, although we didn't move in the same circles.

12 Q. It's in your statement. Now just answer this: In Batkovic, when

13 these exchanges were taking place, did you see Miroslav Tadic?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Did you always see him on the day when an exchange was organised?

16 A. On the 6th of January, a soldier was reading out the list. He was

17 standing next to the soldier. As soon as the list was read out, the

18 detainees were told to pack because they were going to be exchanged.

19 Mr. Tadic left the compound, and on that day, I didn't see him again.

20 When I was exchanged on the 29th, he was also there. A soldier read out

21 names. I don't remember the soldier's name. And he was standing to one

22 side. They left the compound right away and we were told to pack. We

23 left the compound. We were lined up and underwent a cursory search. Then

24 we were told we could board the bus. The bus was from Bijeljina.

25 Q. We'll come to your exchange. We won't talk about it just yet.

Page 17818

1 I'd like to ask you a few more questions about the procedure during the

2 exchange. Or rather the reading out of names. In the period while you

3 were in Batkovic, in December and January, as far as I can see, during

4 those two months, tell us, did you hear or see that someone's name was

5 called out who was not exchanged?

6 A. No. I don't know who would give his place to someone else. Who

7 would remain behind and give his place to someone else.

8 Q. What would happen if someone wasn't present at the moment his name

9 was called out? What happened in such cases, if they happened?

10 A. Well, it did happen sometimes. They would go and fetch them in a

11 van, to -- they would go to where they were working and bring them back to

12 the camp.

13 Q. In the prison, was there talk of someone going whose name had not

14 been called out? Did you see that?

15 A. Well, we constantly discussed it, or rather we constantly

16 discussed exchanges, when there would be an exchange, when it would be

17 someone's turn. We talked about it all the time.

18 Q. Did you see, sir, when names were read out, or after they were

19 read out, people approaching Tadic, talking to him? Were they able to

20 approach him or address him?

21 A. No. Because we were all listening to the roll call, and as soon

22 as it was over, he would leave. He would leave the compound. And the

23 people would go and get their things and get ready to be exchanged.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

25 start on a different topic so this might be a convenient moment now.

Page 17819

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will continue with the witness tomorrow.

2 But before we rise, I wanted to confirm with you, Mr. Lukic that you

3 received the consent for the demographer, the expert witness to be given

4 the documents by the Prosecution.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous interpretation continues] ... I take it.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Today in my locker,

8 I received the submission that we asked for. I haven't had a chance to

9 talk to the Prosecutor yet, but I hope I will be able to get our expert

10 here next week because now all the technical prerequisites have been met

11 for us to finish our expert report. I have to contact her and see whether

12 she is able to arrive next week but I'm sure there will be no problem.

13 First I will discuss the technical details with the Prosecution, how it

14 will be made possible for her and her associate to look into the

15 documentation but I believe we will have no problems in this respect.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I just want confirmation from the Prosecution

17 that they also received the authorisation.

18 MR. RE: Haven't seen it. Can't confirm one way or the other. We

19 will certainly know by tomorrow morning, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: No. It was filed on the 28th of March.

21 MR. RE: All I can say is today is the 31st. I haven't seen it.

22 I'm not saying we haven't got it.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: No, what I'm saying is I want the Prosecution to

24 deal with the matter as quickly as possible so that we don't drag on this

25 matter.

Page 17820

1 MR. RE: I said I can tell you tomorrow morning. I just haven't

2 seen it. Mr. Di Fazio and I haven't seen it. It was filed on Friday. We

3 have been in court this morning.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: But you have members of your staff who are working

5 behind the scenes on these matters. So the Prosecution is expected to

6 make available the documents that were made available to them for the

7 purposes of this expert witness for the Defence.

8 MR. RE: Your Honour there is one matter could I briefly raise

9 about a witness tomorrow morning? One of the Defence witnesses,

10 Mr. Tubakovic, whose statement is D184/3? It seems upon my perusal of the

11 transcript of the 21st of March, at page 17235, and Your Honour's orders

12 in relation to excluding part of it, Your Honour's order in relation to

13 paragraph 22 was the first two sentences which discuss the acts and

14 conduct of the accused are also struck off. That may be an error because

15 the first two sentences say life in Samac during the war was difficult.

16 The Croatian Army and HVO started shelling Samac. It's the sentences

17 after that which actually discuss the acts and conduct of the accused. I

18 raise that now lest the wrong sentences be redacted and to give Your

19 Honours a chance to revisit it perhaps overnight.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the number that was given to the statement?

21 MR. RE: D184/3.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we'll check it and see whether it's correct.

23 MR. RE: Thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: The Defence for Mr. Simo Zaric is expected to bring

25 some witnesses so that we continue this week as we are moving fairly fast

Page 17821

1 with the witnesses for Mr. Miroslav Tadic.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour maybe I can inform the Trial

3 Chamber in that respect.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: You have probably noticed that I didn't come after

6 the previous break here and I was really trying to do my best and I am

7 doing my best to bring the witnesses here. But I believe I have to inform

8 the Trial Chamber and I already raised this issue with the Prosecution,

9 and with the registry as well, none of our witnesses will be ready to come

10 here before Thursday due to many circumstances. Your Honours are aware

11 that there were supposed to be here, and then there was an information

12 from the Trial Chamber --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic, I will cut you short. The Trial

14 Chamber was informed by the legal officer as to the status of affairs in

15 the Victims and Witnesses Unit. There are some witnesses or at least

16 there is one witness who has a permanent visa and that witness can be

17 flown over quickly and others whom arrangements can be made quite fast.

18 So the Trial Chamber is well informed by the Victims and Witnesses Unit.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, thank you. This helps me in a way but I

20 only thing I would like to inform that this one witness that already has a

21 visa is actually Mr. Zaric's wife.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I expect the Defence counsel to work hard and

23 bring more than that one witness so that we can continue working through

24 the witnesses and see if we can complete them as quickly as possible.

25 We'll rise now and continue our proceedings tomorrow.

Page 17822

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

2 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

3 the 1st day of April, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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