Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18755

1 Tuesday, 29 April 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The next counsel, Mr. Lukic.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

13 morning to all present in the courtroom.

14 Questioned by Mr. Lukic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mitrovic. My name is Novak

16 Lukic, I defend Mr. Miroslav Tadic before this Tribunal. I do not have

17 many questions for you; just very few. We shall use these questions to

18 clarify a number of issues that arose in your answers to the Trial Chamber

19 yesterday.

20 First of all, I would like to ask you a number of questions

21 related to the membership of my client, Mr. Tadic, in the Crisis Staff.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

23 document D59/3.

24 Q. Can you please have a look, and we'll place the document on the

25 ELMO. You can look at it while it's actually on the ELMO. This document

Page 18756

1 was not shown to you yesterday.

2 Very well. Mr. Mitrovic, my first question: Are you familiar

3 with the fact that Miroslav Tadic was appointed commander of the civilian

4 protection staff in Samac?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can we then agree that it is by virtue of his position as the

7 commander of the civilian protection staff that he became a member of the

8 Crisis Staff?

9 A. I can't provide an accurate answer to this question. I mean,

10 whether it was an automatic thing that on the basis of his position there

11 he became a member of the Crisis Staff. I can't answer your question. I

12 am not familiar with that. I do not know whether that was the basis for

13 his becoming a member of the Crisis Staff too.

14 Q. Just tell me what you know. I am not insisting on you providing

15 answers that you are not certain of, but we can, can't we, agree that

16 throughout the first days and months during the shelling and war

17 destruction, the role of the civilian protection staff was essential for

18 the functioning of everyday life in Samac?

19 A. Yes, you could say that.

20 Q. Have you ever seen this decision before? Because you didn't

21 mention yesterday that you typed up a number of decisions. Do you know

22 anything about this specific decision? I want to know about the preamble.

23 A. Yes. I'm reading through it and the preamble, and I can't recall

24 this specific decision. At least, I can't remember actually typing this

25 decision or participating in making this decision.

Page 18757

1 Q. Very well. Thank you.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll no longer be needing this

3 document.

4 Now can the witness please be shown document P82.

5 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Mitrovic, you testified about this document which

6 will again now be placed before you. It's a decision on the commission

7 for the exchanges. I will ask you several questions about that document

8 and about your testimony yesterday. Judge Lindholm asked you whether you

9 had any direct information concerning the provision contained in Article 2

10 of this decision, and you said you didn't know anything about that. Now,

11 can you please have a look again -- look through this document, and

12 Article 2 specifically. My apologies, this is not the same document. My

13 mistake. I'm sorry. Just a minute, please.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P83. Yes. A decision on the

15 commission for the exchanges. I think it's dated the 2nd of October.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Article 2, more specifically, states that "The commission will

18 function in cooperation and with the approval of the security organs of

19 the 2nd Posavina Brigade and the bodies of the Public Security Station.

20 My question is: Do you agree with my client's position that in order to

21 obtain approval for the exchange of detained persons you needed to go to

22 the SUP or, rather, to the security organs of the 2nd Posavina Brigade?

23 Do you have any direct knowledge of that?

24 A. As far as these affairs were concerned and how they were carried

25 out by Mr. Tadic, the methodology -- or rather, the methods he used to do

Page 18758

1 his work are not known to me. However, this document clearly shows which

2 organs and institutions took part in carrying out these tasks, the tasks

3 stated here, the exchange of detained and other persons.

4 Q. I was asking you about your direct knowledge. Anything else will

5 obviously be interpreted by the Trial Chamber.

6 A. No.

7 Q. Another question about your direct knowledge of certain events.

8 If you don't have any, please just say no. Did you know that civilians

9 who wanted to be exchanged reported to the local Red Cross of their own

10 free will? Were you aware of that?

11 A. I have no direct knowledge, as I said, of how these activities

12 were taking place, of who was in charge of carrying out these tasks. I do

13 know, however, that for a certain period of time Mr. Tadic was in charge

14 of these activities. How he went about these tasks and activities, I

15 really don't know.

16 Q. And do you know whether Mr. Mastic, who was hereby appointed

17 president or chairman of the commission also worked on these exchanges,

18 even before the decision was adopted?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Do you know why Tadic was merely appointed a member here if he had

21 worked on the exchanges before and another person was actually appointed

22 chairman of the commission?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. You were, as you said yesterday, Mr. Mitrovic, if memory serves

25 me, the Secretary of the Municipal Assembly, and stayed in that position

Page 18759

1 until 1997; isn't that what you said?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know, in the period between the time in January 1993, when

4 the assembly was reconvened, and after that, did Miroslav Tadic hold any

5 official position in the municipal organs from that time onwards, while

6 you were there, aside from his work on the exchanges?

7 A. Since 1993, when the assembly started meeting again as a

8 full-fledged assembly, I was not aware of Mr. Tadic being a member of

9 any -- of the assembly's commissions boards or working bodies. He was not

10 even a deputy there.

11 Q. Very well. Thank you. Mr. Maslic, do you know whether he was the

12 head of the centre for social welfare or did he hold any official

13 positions in the assembly?

14 A. I only met Mr. Maslic for the first time during that period of

15 time. I later found out that he had been an employee of the centre for

16 social welfare in Bosanski Samac. Whether he was head of that institution

17 or not, I'm really not sure. But over the following period he was

18 involved in the work of the executive board of the Municipal Assembly of

19 Samac. He had been appointed by the assembly. I think he was in charge

20 of social affairs.

21 Q. Thank you very much. We'll move on and talk about something you

22 already testified about yesterday. Judge Williams asked you about the War

23 Presidency, and you mentioned, I think on page 19 of yesterday's

24 transcript, that as far as you could remember a decision had been adopted

25 at the republic level. I'm talking about Republika Srpska, on setting up

Page 18760

1 War Presidencies.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

3 document P72. It is a decision on the establishment of War Presidencies

4 throughout the municipalities during the imminent threat of war or state

5 of emergency, signed by the president of the presidency of Republika

6 Srpska, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

7 Q. Please have a look, because you were not shown this document

8 yesterday. I want to know specifically about Article 2 and Article 5, but

9 please take your time and you can read through the whole decision. You

10 can actually take the document and have a look.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, is this the decision you referred to yesterday when

13 you told us about your information concerning the setting up of War

14 Presidencies? Is this the same decision you were talking about yesterday?

15 A. Yes. I learned about this decision when we received our copy of

16 the Official Gazette, and I know that it was with a certain delay, but --

17 Q. Please go on.

18 A. However, I made a suggestion to Mr. Simic at that time that maybe

19 it would be a good idea to reconvene the assembly. However, he said that

20 the conditions were not in place for the assembly to be reconvened and

21 that this would happen at a later date, once conditions were created. If

22 you ask me about this decision specifically, and in relation to the War

23 Presidency of Samac Municipality, I think it was on the basis of this

24 decision that the Crisis Staff was renamed and became War Presidency.

25 Q. That's exactly my interpretation of Article 2, paragraph 5, where

Page 18761

1 it says that "Crisis Staffs cease to work once War Presidencies are

2 established." I suppose you will agree with me on this.

3 You also said yesterday, and you mentioned now, that sometimes you

4 received your copies of the Official Gazette with delay. But tell me,

5 please, if you agree with me: This decision was published on the 8th of

6 June, 1992, and Article 5 clearly states that within 15 days it will be

7 set up, and we do know that the decision on the War Presidency in Samac

8 was adopted in mid-July. Is this connected to the fact that you spoke

9 about, that you received your copies of the Official Gazette with a

10 certain delay?

11 A. Yes, I think that's it.

12 Q. Very well. Let us now please look at Article 2, which contains

13 the envisaged composition of the War Presidency and its members. You will

14 agree that Miroslav Tadic was not a republican commissioner in the Samac

15 municipality?

16 A. No, he wasn't.

17 Q. I suppose we can also agree - and this is an agreed fact in this

18 case - that he was not the president of the municipal assembly or the

19 deputy. He was not the president of the executive board or his deputy.

20 A. No, he wasn't.

21 Q. You will also agree that he was not a deputy and not a member, was

22 he?

23 A. No, he wasn't.

24 Q. I was listening to your testimony yesterday, and you said you

25 couldn't say with any degree of certainty who the members of the Crisis

Page 18762

1 Staff were. It is an agreed fact that Mr. Tadic was - and we are not

2 disputing this - but can you tell us whether Miroslav Tadic was or was not

3 a member of the War Presidency?

4 A. I believe the members of the Crisis Staff remained in place and

5 continued to be members of the War Presidency. They continued their work.

6 As I said yesterday, as far as I know, those were Dr. Simic, Mr. Tadic,

7 Mr. Simeun Simic, Mr. Savo Popovic. That's as much as I know.

8 Q. You said yesterday that you were not told when you were drafting

9 the decision whether new members were to be appointed or not.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Formally speaking, you did not receive a decision naming the

12 members of the War Presidency.

13 A. No.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will no longer be needing this

15 document for the time being. Can the witness please be shown document P82

16 now.

17 Q. This is a letter to the Holy Archidiaconal Synod. You testified

18 about that letter yesterday and you explained how Stevan Todorovic

19 literally dictated this letter to you and told you expressly what the

20 letter was to say. I will not ask you about the content of this document,

21 but Judge Williams asked you yesterday whether you remembered talking to

22 Mr. Tadic about Patriarch Pavle's concerns in relation to the arrest of a

23 priest, and you said there was no reason for him to talk to you about

24 that.

25 Now, my question is - I will try to remind you of the following,

Page 18763

1 my client's position: Do you recall prior to the drafting of this letter

2 whether Miroslav Tadic visited Patriarch Pavle to talk to him about other

3 matters, and did he convey any information to you or to Stevan Todorovic

4 in your presence? Can you recall anything like that?

5 A. No.

6 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous interpretation continues] ... the

7 document is on the ELMO.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it's a public document. Yes.

9 MR. PANTELIC: This is a public document.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Okay.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. I will tell you what the position of my client is. He claims that

14 he did see Patriarch Pavle in Belgrade in relation also to the Serbs

15 detained in Odzak, that they talked about the detained priest, and then

16 upon his return from Belgrade he conveyed this information on the premises

17 of the Crisis Staff to Stevan Todorovic, who was there, and you were there

18 too. He claims he conveyed this information there. Do you remember that?

19 A. I do remember that. When this happened, I can't remember whether

20 it was Mr. Tadic, but that's possible. There was a person there who was

21 supposed, in relation to this event and this letter, to go immediately to

22 Belgrade to see the Patriarch. Whether it was Mr. Tadic or not, I really

23 can't remember right now, but I know that there was a person who was

24 there, but the situation was very difficult and I told you about the

25 circumstances at that time. I can't remember whether it was Mr. Tadic

Page 18764

1 specifically.

2 Q. Tell me, can you remember at all whether you actually held in your

3 hands a letter sent by the Synod to the Municipality? This letter, does

4 it state the source from which His Excellency found out about the priest

5 who had been arrested? Does the letter say anything about that?

6 A. I remember that there was a document that had arrived from the

7 Patriarch in Belgrade in relation to this case, and this document was the

8 subject of a heated debate in the office between Dr. Simic and Todorovic.

9 I can't remember what the document actually said, the whole content of the

10 document. I know there was this debate, a quarrel even.

11 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Mitrovic.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this

13 witness, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

16 Questioned by Mr. Pisarevic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mitrovic. As we know, because

18 you testified about your position as Secretary of the Municipal Assembly

19 and Secretary of the Crisis Staff of Samac Municipality, I will ask you a

20 number of questions about your method of work, or rather, how the whole

21 thing functioned.

22 As you said, you were in charge of the technical drafting of these

23 decisions and such. Tell us, please: Were any kind of records kept of

24 decisions adopted by the Crisis Staff? I did notice that all the

25 decisions and everything decided by the Crisis Staff had a number, a

Page 18765

1 record number, which is -- which every decision has and bears. Can you

2 please tell us something about that.

3 A. Yes. At the Crisis Staff there was a book, a book in which

4 enactments of the Crisis Staff were being recorded. This book was also

5 used to record enactments that I put together. I don't know whether all

6 the enactments of the Crisis Staff and the War Presidency were actually

7 recorded in that same book. I do not know because I was not there the

8 whole time, especially in the period, as I said before, of May, June, and

9 July 1992. Yesterday I looked at a number of documents that I couldn't

10 recall.

11 Q. Very well.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

13 document P79 ter. Very well. Thank you. That's fine.

14 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, this is an announcement, as you can see, and in the

15 upper left corner it says "Crisis Staff, number 01-2/92." Correction,

16 01-10/92. Did you type this announcement actually, or rather, did you add

17 the bits that are in handwriting? Is this your handwriting?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Can we agree that according to this information, this number where

20 it says "01," that this was actually the first, the very first decision

21 ever adopted by the Crisis Staff?

22 A. I do not know that this was the very first decision adopted by the

23 Crisis Staff. I heard about this announcement because I believe it was

24 published in the media and it was published several times, several days in

25 a row. Now, whether it was the first document ever adopted by the Crisis

Page 18766

1 Staff, no, I really can't say.

2 Q. But you are a person dealing with records, assigning file numbers

3 to documents. So please tell us: I've noticed this other number, number

4 10, where it says "01-10," I've noticed on most decisions of the Crisis

5 Staff this number 10. Was that some kind of a mark or a code indicating

6 that this was a decision by the Crisis Staff?

7 A. I don't think that was any special kind of mark or code. I was

8 not the one assigning numbers to these documents really. The records were

9 kept at reception, which in May, June, and July 1992 was occupied by a

10 lady whose name I can't remember. I think her last name was Tesanovic.

11 She was keeping the records of the Crisis Staff in May, June, and July.

12 Or rather, I think it was Mr. Savo Popovic who was there keeping the

13 records in that office.

14 Q. You were therefore telling us that that number 10 is not a special

15 code or a special number indicating the body that will adopt decision.

16 A. I do not know if that number means anything special. I don't know

17 if this is an indication which tell us that this is a body of the Crisis

18 Staff.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

21 a document bearing number P112.

22 Q. You have seen this decision already. It is a decision regarding

23 the creation of the executive board. It is a decision dated 30th May

24 1992, a decision about the creation of the executive board. You can see

25 that on the top we can see "Crisis Staff, Municipal Assembly of Bosanski

Page 18767

1 Samac." Then we see a number, "139-10/92," dated 30th May 1992.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So could you please tell us, what does this number 139 mean?

4 A. This number is supposed to be the number that's recorded in the

5 book of records. It is the number of the enactment entered in the book

6 for the enactments of the Crisis Staff. If I remember correctly, it was

7 in chronological order that these numbers were inscribed. So all the

8 documents, not only the official enactments, but all the other documents

9 were also inscribed and put there, all the technical documents that have

10 no special bearing with regards to the work of the Crisis Staff, for

11 instance. If I'm not mistaken, there was also an order for food, orders

12 for food, for fuel, were also put into this book and were also given a

13 number.

14 Q. Yes. But what is this -10? What does that mean?

15 A. Yes, I know, you want me to tell you about the number 10.

16 Q. Does this mean that this was everything that was stemming from the

17 Crisis Staff as a body that existed at the time? Does that mean that all

18 the orders, all the decisions, or whatever, was stemming from the Crisis

19 Staff and that was sent to other bodies? Does that mean that this is what

20 it represents? Does it mean that all these -- everything that was

21 stemming from the Crisis Staff bore that number 10?

22 A. Well, I'm telling you again, I am not the one who was recording

23 all of these things, but it is possible because this number 10 appears in

24 all the documents of the Crisis Staff or the War Presidency, so at the

25 very beginning I was not the one who was recording documents. I can just

Page 18768

1 suppose that this number, since it appears up until the very end, it

2 probably means that this is a number that means that, that it is -- it

3 means that it's a document stemming from the Crisis Staff or the War

4 Presidency.

5 Q. Very well. Then I will not ask you any more questions regarding

6 this. But all those enactments were recorded, as you say, and when the

7 War Presidency was created you told us that the enactments were also

8 recorded in the same fashion. Thank you very much.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to witness to be

10 shown the document P83 ter.

11 Could you please move the document in such a way that we can see

12 the number. Thank you.

13 Q. Very well. At the very bottom of this document we can see a

14 number 213-10 1992 or rather, 213-10/92, dated 7 of October, 1992. And

15 we can see that it is a decision stemming from the War Presidency.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And this number 213 is the number of this document; is that

18 correct? And this number 10 would be a number indicating that this

19 document stems from the Crisis Staff; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that is so.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. We do not

22 need this document any more.

23 Could the witness please be shown the document D55/1 ter.

24 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, you saw this document yesterday, if I'm not

25 mistaken.

Page 18769

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. I would only like to ask you one thing about this document: I

3 believe that yesterday you wanted to add something which you didn't have

4 the time. You see that under number 12 we see a handwritten note,

5 Topcagic Fadil, we can see that it says "Member of the Crisis Staff," and

6 we see some numbers. Do you see this inscription?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you the one who added this with your own hand?

9 A. I was a little surprised yesterday, I must say. I was surprised

10 when I saw the content of this document, and I must say that I am not sure

11 if this is a -- an authentic document, even with regards to my signature.

12 On the left-hand side we see the signature of Mr. Mirko Lukic. If

13 I recall correctly, his signature -- yesterday I said that these -- that

14 this data with regards to the positions held by these people are

15 completely inaccurate, and I must say that some interventions were made

16 here, later on with regards to the dates, and some additions were made,

17 such as this particular name was added, and on the right-hand side we see

18 some amounts - and I do not agree with them - I actually have some doubts

19 as to the veracity and the authenticity of this document, and I already

20 stated - and I'm sorry to interrupt you - but I would like to say and

21 restate once again that I was never a member of the Crisis Staff. This

22 document is not ...

23 Q. Excuse me. I will interrupt you. Please tell us, did you add

24 yourself with free hand the name of Topcagic Fadil on the top of this

25 document?

Page 18770

1 A. No, absolutely no.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Can you tell us to the best of my knowledge

3 and to the best of your -- to the best of your knowledge, can you tell us

4 if Mr. Topcagic Fadil was a member of the Crisis Staff in the month of May

5 1992, or rather, did you ever see him attending any of the meetings of the

6 Crisis Staff?

7 A. With regard to the sessions that were held in May, June, and July,

8 sessions that I attended, I was present while these sessions were

9 convened, or I was there. I did not see Mr. Topcagic Fadil. I did not

10 see him come to the Crisis Staff.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] We will not need this document any

13 more.

14 Q. You stated yesterday that during the session of the Municipal

15 Assembly of the Municipality of Pelagicevo which took place on the 16th of

16 December, 1992 in the village of Pisari you told us that the commission

17 was formed, the commission that was to present to the assembly during

18 People's Assembly the adoption of all the decisions of the Crisis Staff

19 for ratification. Was that done? Did this commission actually do this in

20 such a fashion?

21 A. Yes, this commission, if I'm not mistaken, was convened, and if

22 I'm not mistaken, all the enactments from the War Presidency and from the

23 Crisis Staff were submitted to this commission. Everything that was

24 available was handed down to this commission. This commission looked at

25 these documents, and at a later session proposed to the assembly the

Page 18771

1 decisions and the enactments, and it was up to them to verify all this.

2 Q. So the result of that commission, the result of the work of that

3 commission, wasn't the agenda of an assembly -- of a session?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Are those all the documents and all the decisions that were

6 published in the Official Gazettes later on when you were able to publish

7 all these documents, when the technical -- when you were technically able

8 to do so?

9 A. Yes. This commission was -- proposed these enactments and the

10 assembly was to verify them, and if I'm not mistaken those enactments were

11 enumerated and it went to the assembly in such a way. So the assembly

12 only had to verify certain enactments. And if I'm not mistaken, I think

13 it's general enactments. Those were general enactments.

14 Q. So the commission gave a proposal to the municipal assembly, and

15 the municipal assembly had to verify these enactments and decisions of the

16 Crisis Staff and of the War Presidency and the assembly was to verify

17 these documents.

18 A. Yes.

19 THE INTERPRETER: It was to ratify. Correction.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know if there were any decisions that this commission did

22 not propose to the assembly, decisions that were adopted by the Crisis

23 Staff and by the War Presidency?

24 A. This commission had within their possession what was available for

25 myself and what was available from the records, from the file of the

Page 18772

1 enactments of the Crisis Staff and the War Presidency, and then therefore

2 that commission enumerated all these decisions and they're the ones who

3 proposed what was going to go for ratification. So whether all the

4 enactments were sent for ratification, I don't know. If some of the

5 documents were not sent, I cannot give you a clear answer. I do not know.

6 Q. Can we agree that the documents that were not proposed by the

7 commission for the assembly to ratify as decisions stemming from the

8 Crisis Staff, in fact those documents were never ratified on behalf of the

9 Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Samac?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, you cannot ask that question. This

11 witness has said he doesn't know whether any decisions were not ratified.

12 Now you are giving evidence and asking the witness to agree with you.

13 That is not correct.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I withdraw this

15 question.

16 Q. Who was in charge of keeping these records, with regards to the

17 work of the Crisis Staff and the War Presidency?

18 A. I don't know if somebody was in charge of keeping the records.

19 These records were at the Crisis Staff, and there's -- there was a book of

20 records where all these decisions were placed and it was at the reception

21 desk, if you will, if I may say so that way, and this book of records was

22 not kept by a particular person. The protocol and the records were not

23 particularly protected. So when I would come there during the time when I

24 worked there, in May, June, and July, it was not under lock and key. The

25 archives were not sealed off, they were not protected in a special way.

Page 18773

1 Q. Thank you very much. You told us about May, June, and July, but

2 I'm interested in 1993, 1994. What happened then, from 1992 to 1994? Who

3 was keeping these records?

4 A. In 1993?

5 Q. Yes, 1992, 1993, 1994.

6 A. The records of the Crisis Staff?

7 Q. Yes. Who was in charge of keeping the records?

8 A. In 1993 or in 1994, if I'm not mistaken, those records were handed

9 down to Dr. Simic, if I am not mistaken, all the records of the Crisis

10 Staff and the War Presidency, all this -- all these records, those files,

11 were handed to the president, Dr. Simic, and he kept them in his office.

12 So after 1993 and later, they were in his possession.

13 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The cross-examination by the Prosecution.

15 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Could I just -- before I start, could I just correct something I

17 said yesterday in relation to some documents. I said yesterday that

18 Mr. Lukic -- Mirko Lukic submitted them to us, and I thought -- understood

19 that Mr. Pisarevic -- it may have been through Mr. Pisarevic. We have

20 checked those. It was my confusion. It was in fact through Mr. Mirko

21 Lukic, not Mr. Pisarevic at all, and I withdraw any suggestion that he had

22 any hand in it.

23 Questioned by Mr. Re:

24 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, I'm going to ask you some questions based upon your

25 evidence of the last day or so for the Prosecution. As a lawyer, you

Page 18774

1 understand my role here as the Prosecutor, don't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, sir, when you asked -- you answered some questions a moment

4 ago about the detention of a priest and representations made by the

5 Patriarch in Belgrade for his release. I just want to make sure that we

6 have completely got the transaction clear for the -- for the Trial Chamber

7 and for the record, and can I suggest -- or can you clarify that it was

8 this: Firstly, a letter arrived from the Patriarch to the Crisis Staff,

9 number one?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. Secondly, Todorovic saw the letter, there was a discussion or an

12 argument between him and Simic, he dictated the letter to you - that's

13 Todorovic - and Simic told you to send the letter off? That's the second

14 thing in the series of the transaction.

15 A. That's exactly how it happened.

16 Q. Thank you. And the third was that someone then - you can't

17 remember who - then after you had sent the letter then went to Belgrade to

18 make personal representations to the Patriarch?

19 A. Yes. I am absolutely certain that there was a person who

20 immediately left for Belgrade. I don't know if it was the next day, but I

21 think so. And this person had the task to go see the Patriarch in

22 Belgrade and that person was to explain and was to find an appropriate

23 answer to this problem. I'm just trying to go back in time, to rewind the

24 film of my memory, if you will. I don't remember if it was Mr. Cedo Simic

25 or Mr. Tadic. I'm not quite sure who it was, but I know that somebody did

Page 18775

1 go, yes.

2 Q. Thank you. I was interested in the sequence, one, two, three.

3 Now, in 1990 -- I withdraw that. Your evidence is that you have a

4 law degree and I think you were born in 1964. When did you leave school,

5 Mr. Mitrovic?

6 A. I graduated from the Faculty of Law in the month of October or

7 early November 1991. It is a fact that I was not very knowledgeable in

8 the works -- or in that kind of work, the work that I started doing, in

9 the public domain.

10 Q. What did you do between November 1991 and April 1992 when you had

11 this job of Secretary of the Crisis Staff or Municipal Assembly?

12 A. As of the 1st of December, 1991, up until the second half of

13 April, I worked in a company. It was an agricultural company. They

14 were -- they gave me a job as a lawyer of that company, so it was my first

15 job ever and I was a trainee, actually, at that time.

16 Q. Was that a state-run agricultural company or a private one?

17 A. It was a -- it was an agricultural association, and I don't know

18 if in France or in Holland you have such a thing, in Western Europe. I

19 don't know how to explain. I can try to give you the status of that

20 company. It's a bit specific.

21 Q. If I could ask you some direct questions on it. The directorship

22 of the company, who appointed the directors or the managers of the

23 company? Was it the farmers themselves or was it the municipality or some

24 other person or institution?

25 A. I understand your question. This company was not appointed by

Page 18776

1 a -- by the government. It was the peasants, if you will, or the farmers,

2 people who were working within this cooperative, and they were the ones

3 who appointed the head of the company.

4 Q. Where was this job located?

5 A. In Obudovac.

6 Q. When you were at university, did you have any political

7 affiliations or were you involved in political organisations on campus or

8 in your home town or anywhere else?

9 A. No, not at the time. When I was at university, I had other

10 activities. I was a member of -- I was a scout.

11 Q. What about your family and your wife? Were the members of your

12 family or does your wife have political affiliations at that time? That's

13 1991/1992.

14 A. No. None of the members of my family in 1991 were involved in any

15 political activities, not at the time, and they're not involved even

16 today.

17 Q. Were you mobilised in 1991 or 1992?

18 A. I believe it was at the end of 1991. I couldn't really tell you

19 the month. But I did receive a call. It was the federal army at the

20 time. And I was called for an exercise of the reserve formation, and I

21 think I spent seven days at that exercise and that was it.

22 Q. Were you a member of any of the detachments of the 17th Tactical

23 Group of the JNA's 17th Corps, that is, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th

24 Detachment of the 17th Tactical Corps -- Tactical Group, I'm sorry?

25 A. No. I was called, and then I had this exercise which lasted seven

Page 18777

1 days as a member of the reserve unit. Now, I don't know if they were

2 linked with the tactical group. However, I do know that afterwards I came

3 back to work in the company in question.

4 Q. Are you related to any of the three accused over there, either by

5 marriage or by family?

6 A. No.

7 Q. How long have you known Dr. Simic for?

8 A. It was at that time that I met Dr. Simic, at the beginning of

9 these activities in 1992 and during the period of time that followed in

10 1993 and 1994, as the president of the municipality of course he was also

11 my superior, so to speak. So it was during that period of time that I was

12 able to know him better.

13 Q. Did you develop a friendship with Dr. Simic over that time?

14 A. Well, I can give you the following answer to that question: We

15 cooperated very well over certain periods of time, but our opinions also

16 differed on certain issues. These disagreements culminated in 1996 when

17 we had opposite positions on certain issues.

18 Q. Were they work-related issues? I don't want to go into this, but

19 were they - yes or no - work-related issues or other things?

20 A. Well, it had to do with the indictment issued by this Tribunal.

21 It was my belief that it was necessary to act as it had been ordered in

22 the Dayton Peace Accords, that we should act accordingly, that a different

23 president should be appointed given the fact that the agreement

24 specifically provided for the persons indicted by the Office of the

25 Prosecutor of this Tribunal, that they could not be appointed to any

Page 18778

1 public office, and we had differences of opinion of this particular issue.

2 I cannot say that Dr. Simic personally took part in this, but I will take

3 the liberty to say that after that certain SDS circles in Samac

4 retaliated, with respect to myself personally and my family, concerning my

5 employment, and my wife, as late as the year 2000, was forced to leave,

6 was actually sacked.

7 Q. What about Mr. Tadic, the defendant -- the accused Mr. Tadic? You

8 know Mr. Tadic, don't you?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. All right. Is -- how long have you known Mr. Tadic for?

11 A. It was also during that period of time that I met Mr. Tadic. It

12 was either in late April or early May 1992. I had not known him prior to

13 that. Our contacts actually boiled down to just a couple of encounters,

14 when he came to visit the town hall or to attend the session of the

15 assembly.

16 Q. And what about Mr. Zaric? You obviously know Mr. Zaric as well.

17 How long have you known Mr. Zaric for?

18 A. I don't know him as well as I know Mr. Tadic. I personally saw

19 Mr. Zaric and I met him on -- I cannot recall the precise date, but I know

20 that it was on the occasion of his being proposed by Dr. Simic to an

21 office within the Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska. After

22 that I saw Mr. Zaric just a couple of times. But as I said, those were

23 just superficial meetings or encounters. I didn't have any specific

24 contacts with him concerning the actual work.

25 Q. This office with -- the office he was proposed -- sorry, the

Page 18779

1 office which Dr. Simic proposed him within the Ministry of the Interior of

2 the Republika Srpska, was that the position of chief of National Security

3 Service within the Samac municipality in the state of emergency? Is that

4 the one you're referring to, or is it something else? And that is P81,

5 for the record.

6 A. Yes. Yes, that is the event in question.

7 Q. All right. If I could just go back to your -- I withdraw that.

8 The -- I think your evidence yesterday, or the effect was, that

9 you received an assignment or a work obligation to work as the Secretary

10 of the Samac Municipality at the time of the -- or publication of the

11 "imminent threat of war" in Samac. Have I got that right? Is that the

12 effect of your evidence yesterday?

13 A. Yes. It was on the 15th of April that the imminent threat of war

14 was proclaimed on the territory of the then-Serbian Republic of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I was appointed Secretary of the Municipal

16 Assembly on the 28th of March, but after this imminent threat of war was

17 proclaimed my position was activated, that is, after the 15th of April I

18 was tasked by the Ministry of Defence to perform this work until the

19 situation is resolved. The imminent threat of war lasted until I think

20 either the month of May or June 1996. It was until that period of time

21 that the imminent threat of war was proclaimed -- lasted.

22 Q. I'm just trying to clarify something from your evidence, and that

23 is this: You'll agree that in October 1990 there were elections in Bosnia

24 and a democratically elected local assembly, that is, the Municipal

25 Assembly of Bosanski Samac was elected? You'd agree with that, wouldn't

Page 18780

1 you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And of course this Samac Municipality, of course - you'll have to

4 agree - was a Serb-only institution, based upon the constitution and its

5 composition?

6 A. Could you please clarify. What do you mean by "a Serb-only

7 institution"?

8 Q. The Serbian Municipality of Samac was a Serb institution comprised

9 of Serb -- sorry, SDS deputies and deputies of Serb ethnicity. You looked

10 at the -- I think Their Honours showed you the constitution yesterday.

11 A. I see. Yes, I see what you mean now.

12 Q. Would you agree with that?

13 A. I think I understand you question.

14 Q. Would you agree with that basic proposition that it was a Serb

15 institution, formed by the Serbs?

16 A. Yes. Yes, on the basis of the decision issued by the Assembly of

17 the Serbian People in Sarajevo.

18 Q. And based on that, it was a parallel government to the existing

19 elected government. That's of March 1992. There's evidence before the

20 Tribunal that that was the case, and I'm just asking you to agree with

21 that basic proposition. It was a parallel government or institution

22 existing at the same time as the elected one?

23 A. These institutions were publicly proclaimed in Sarajevo in 1991

24 and 1992. I think that three Official Gazettes of the Serbian people were

25 published to that effect in Sarajevo. It was a public thing.

Page 18781

1 Q. Sir --

2 A. By the constitutional court --

3 Q. Please, what I'm just asking you is to accept that there was an

4 elected municipal assembly and there was this parallel Serbian one, both

5 existing at the same time in March 1992. You'd agree with that, wouldn't

6 you?

7 A. Yes. Yes. As far as I know, the deputies of the Serbian assembly

8 were the same ones that had been elected in 1990. I was not there when

9 this assembly was constituted in February, but I know that that was the

10 case.

11 Q. And the purpose of this parallel or Serbian assembly, according to

12 the proclamations or the Official Gazettes of the Serbian people, was to

13 form a government in the municipality then called Bosanski Samac, wasn't

14 it?

15 A. Well, I can say that this parallel government, as you call it, was

16 established on a condition in case it becomes necessary to defend vital

17 interests of Serbian people in the area, if my understanding of the issue

18 is correct. The constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina was violated.

19 Q. The purpose was to form a government in a municipality if

20 necessary, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Your evidence is that the Republika Srpska's Ministry of Defence -

23 I think it was the Ministry of Defence. Correct me if I'm wrong -

24 appointed you to the position of Secretary of the Assembly - that's the

25 Serbian -- of the Serb assembly - before the 15th of April, 1992, that is,

Page 18782

1 as of the 28th of March, 1992. Is that your evidence?

2 A. Yes. But the Ministry of Defence merely confirmed or verified the

3 situation as it was at the time and my position, my appointment.

4 Q. You're saying the Secretary of -- or the Ministry of Defence

5 verified or ratified the Serbian -- the Serbian Assembly of Samac

6 appointing you as the secretary on the 28th of March and you received some

7 official notification of that as a work obligation around the 15th of

8 April; is that what you're saying?

9 A. Yes. In my military booklet which contains information on my

10 assignments or work obligation during the time of war or the imminent

11 threat of war, the Ministry entered the information on my assignment

12 within municipal authorities. That was specifically stated in my military

13 booklet.

14 Q. And you received that before you reported for duty as Secretary of

15 the Crisis Staff; is that so?

16 A. Not immediately, because normally you keep the military booklet at

17 home, but I had to bring it to Samac on a later date, and I think it was

18 Mr. Bogdanovic who entered this particular information on my assignment in

19 this military booklet.

20 Q. What I'm trying to get to, Mr. Mitrovic, is your appointment as

21 the Secretary of the Samac Serbian Municipality. At the time you said you

22 were working as a lawyer, your first job out of law school for an

23 agricultural cooperative. This job of Secretary of the Assembly of the

24 Serbian Municipality of Samac, it wasn't a job that was advertised, was

25 it?

Page 18783

1 A. No, of course not.

2 Q. As far as you know, there were no other applicants for the

3 position?

4 A. No.

5 Q. The -- go on. You were going to say something.

6 A. Well, in such conditions, in such circumstances, especially with

7 respect to such positions and in the situation when it was the Ministry of

8 Defence who assigned people to their particular military or work

9 obligations, defence regulations apply under these circumstances, and it

10 was that ministry that was in charge of appointing or assigning people to

11 various jobs, without any prior vacancy announcement.

12 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, you weren't the only lawyer in the municipality of

13 Bosanski Samac at the time, were you?

14 A. No, I was not.

15 Q. Mr. Mirko Lukic, for example, has legal qualifications.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. There were other lawyers of Serb ethnicity working for the

18 Municipality, weren't there?

19 A. I cannot remember the names, but I'm sure that there were such

20 lawyers working there. I mean, in the municipality at that time. But I

21 really don't know who they were.

22 Q. The position was a -- a very responsible one. You'd agree with

23 that, wouldn't you, being a Secretary of the Municipal Assembly? It's a

24 very responsible position?

25 A. Yesterday I tried to respond to Her Honour Judge Williams, but --

Page 18784

1 Q. Please just concentrate on the question. I'm asking you

2 whether -- I'm asking you to agree or disagree with --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... so the answer is yes?

5 A. [No audible response]

6 Q. Now, Mr. Mitrovic, your evidence was that you were six months out

7 of law school -- or less than six months out of law school, doing your

8 first job working in an agricultural company. How did you become known to

9 those at the Serbian -- or the Serb Municipality executive who appointed

10 you to that position on the 28th of March, 1992?

11 A. At that time the assembly that met on the 28th of March was held

12 in the town where I worked for this particular company. The venue was in

13 the vicinity of the company I was working at the time, and the people who

14 knew me -- I mean, it was probably the people who knew me who proposed me

15 as a lawyer to this position, without any particular reasons or

16 conditions.

17 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, you were working -- you had a job at the time. You

18 must have been surprised when you were told that you were going to -- into

19 this new, very responsible position for someone less than six months out

20 of law school, in their second job. You must have been surprised about

21 that.

22 A. Well, I must admit that I was, yes.

23 Q. And you must have asked how it came to be that I, Mitar Mitrovic,

24 lawyer for the agricultural co-op, have now been catapulted into the

25 Secretary of the new Municipality? You must have asked that.

Page 18785

1 A. If you're referring to that period of time and to the town of

2 Samac when it was established on the 15th of April -- or are you asking me

3 about the 28th of March?

4 Q. When you found out that you had this new job by order of the

5 Ministry of Defence to be the Secretary of the Serbian Municipality, you

6 must have -- you must have asked how it came to be. Who did you ask?

7 A. It was my work obligation and my war obligation that I had to

8 comply with, regardless of my personal opinion on the whole issue.

9 Q. Let me just go back. You were elected on 28th of March, 1992 --

10 or appointed to the position. You know that. What I'm asking you is:

11 Just based upon normal human experience, you must have been extremely

12 surprised to find yourself elevated from Secretary of the Co-op -- sorry,

13 lawyer of the co-op, junior lawyer of the co-op, to Secretary of the

14 Municipality. In relation to your appointment at the meeting on the 28th

15 of March, who did you ask about your appointment and what were you told?

16 A. Of course it was something that I did not expect, so it did come

17 as a surprise for me, but I assume that at the time there was no

18 specific -- there was not much choice amongst other lawyers --

19 Q. What I'm asking you is: You said you were surprised. You must

20 have asked someone, "How did I, Mitar Mitrovic come to be appointed or

21 elected for this position?" Who did you ask? You must have asked

22 someone. Who did you ask and what did they tell you about what happened

23 on the 28th of March.

24 A. I spoke with Mr. Ilija Ristic, who was the president of the

25 Serbian Assembly at the time. I also discussed it with the

Page 18786

1 vice-presidents of this assembly, Mr. Blagoje Simic, and Mr. Dusan

2 Tanasic.

3 Q. What did Mr. Dusan Tanasic, Mr. Ilija Ristic, and Dr. Blagoje

4 Simic say to you about the circumstances of your appointment and why you

5 were appointed? But firstly, tell us when the discussion was and then

6 move to the second part.

7 A. I discussed it with the -- these individuals in Obudovac.

8 Q. When?

9 A. On the 28th of March.

10 Q. What did they say to you?

11 A. They explained to me what the situation was and what the reasons

12 were for the establishment of this assembly.

13 Q. Just please tell us --

14 A. And --

15 Q. -- what they said to you. Just not explain the circumstances. As

16 best as you can. I know it's a long time ago. What did Dr. Simic,

17 Mr. Tanasic, and Mr. Ristic say to you? They said, "Mitar ...." Da da da

18 da da. Just tell us what they said to you.

19 A. Yes. I'm trying to explain to you what it was that they told me.

20 They explained to me what the situation was and they mentioned the reasons

21 for this and they told me that the situation was urgent and that the

22 municipal organs -- the assembly organs had to be established as soon as

23 possible and that I should accept as a temporary solution this appointment

24 until such a time, until the entire situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina

25 becomes clearer.

Page 18787

1 Q. And did they tell you that you would be the Secretary of the

2 Crisis Staff once it was established? That is, that your duties of the

3 municipal -- Secretary of the Assembly would also be Secretary of the

4 Crisis Staff?

5 A. No, absolutely not. There was no mention whatsoever of such

6 possibilities or plans.

7 Q. What did Dr. Simic say to you on the 28th of March in Obudovac

8 about the circumstances or the situation? As best as you can, what did he

9 say to you was the circumstances of the situation?

10 A. Well, he told me, together with these other people that I

11 mentioned, Ristic and Tanasic - there were other people who were attending

12 the session as well - he told me what the political situation was, he

13 explained to me the decision of the People's Assembly of the Serbian

14 Republic. He said that it was our duty to establish Serbian assemblies on

15 the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina until appropriate political

16 solution to the situation, which was very difficult at the time in Bosnia

17 and Herzegovina, was found. The problems had been caused by this decision

18 adopted by the Assembly of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

19 concerning the holding of a referendum on independence of the Republic of

20 Bosnia and Herzegovina without the consent of one of the three constituent

21 peoples, that is, the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22 Q. What did he say was the urgency of the situation?

23 A. He only said that it was necessary for this to be put on paper,

24 that these bodies should be established until the overall situation caused

25 by the referendum on independence is resolved in Bosnia-Herzegovina. As

Page 18788

1 to what would happen and how it would happen, I really -- I really don't

2 know.

3 Q. In relation to that discussion with Dr. Simic on the 28th of March

4 in Obudovac and your appointment as the Secretary of the Assembly, was

5 that before or after you were appointed on the day? Did they ask you

6 before whether you were willing to accept the position or did they tell

7 you about the fact that you had been appointed to it afterwards?

8 A. On that day, the 28th of March, I was simply called up during that

9 session or during the break of that session in Obudovac. There must have

10 been a discussion regarding the appointments and the work of the assembly,

11 and at one point they invited me to come over from my company and they

12 simply asked me whether I would agree to this temporary employment, and

13 they also explained to me what I -- what I had just -- have just told you

14 about.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: We will take our break now.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution is continuing.

19 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, I just want to ask you to assist us as much as

21 possible by -- can you hear me?

22 A. Yes, I can.

23 Q. I want you to assist us as much as possible in terms of time and

24 the clarity of your evidence by giving direct answers to the questions I

25 ask. Do you understand?

Page 18789

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. My earlier question was: How did you find out about your

3 appointment? And ten minutes later we still hadn't found out. So I'm

4 just going to try and summarise what you just told us. The question I

5 asked you could have been answered very directly. I just want to pose a

6 direct question to you and I just want you to answer it directly, please.

7 Can you help us with that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Thank you. So can I please summarise what happened

10 about you finding out about your appointment, or the fact that you had

11 been propose as a Secretary of the Municipal Assembly of Samac, the

12 Serbian one? Firstly, you were at work; yes or no?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Someone telephoned you and said, "Come to the assembly meeting"?

15 A. No, not telephoned. People came.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. Someone sent people over from the assembly, the assembly session,

18 and I went there. I did not attend at the very beginning of that session.

19 Q. You came in to the assembly session some way after -- sometime

20 after it had commenced; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At the time that you entered the assembly hall, was the meeting in

23 progress?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you got there, were you greeted by Dr. Simic and Mr. Tanasic

Page 18790

1 and Mr. Ristic or did they speak to you afterwards during a break?

2 A. They spoke to me during the break.

3 Q. Thank you. All right. We'll move on. At the time they -- when

4 you arrived at the -- sorry, when they spoke to you, had you -- had --

5 your name had been put forward for the position of secretary but you had

6 not been elected or appointed yet; is that correct?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. And during the break, Simic, Tanasic, and Ristic took you aside

9 and asked you if you would accept the appointment of secretary; is that

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that is how you found -- and you said, "Yes, I will accept the

13 position of Secretary of the Serbian Municipality"?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you stayed for the balance of the meeting, the remainder of

16 the assembly session, or you left to go back to work? Do you remember?

17 A. I didn't stay for the remainder of the assembly session, I

18 believe, no.

19 Q. You were informed -- well, were you there when the vote was taken

20 as to your appointment as secretary?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So you left the assembly meeting knowing that you had been

23 appointed or elected as Secretary of the Serbian Municipality?

24 A. I left the meeting just before it drew to a close. There was one

25 last item left on the agenda when I left, appointments to the executive

Page 18791

1 board.

2 Q. Well, why couldn't you just have told me that when I asked you

3 directly about an hour ago and Her Honour Judge Williams when she asked

4 you how you came to be appointed yesterday? Why couldn't you have just

5 said that quite directly?

6 A. I -- that was not the way I understood the question. Now I'm

7 giving you the specific answer.

8 Q. Thank you, sir. I'll move on. Now, you said you were living

9 Obudovac during May, June, and July 1992. Was that your evidence

10 yesterday?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were you staying in Samac or -- sorry, Bosanski Samac at any time

13 during that period, in a house or flat in Bosanski Samac?

14 A. During that period, I would be called to the Crisis Staff or the

15 War Presidency. I spent the night at the Crisis Staff several times.

16 During that period, as I said yesterday, I was in Obudovac on Mr. Simic's

17 instructions at a staff building, staff for the protection and evacuation

18 of persons, and that was also where I slept in Obudovac, in that building.

19 Q. This morning you gave evidence about the declaration of the state

20 of emergency in Bosanski Samac, that is, P79. And you said you heard

21 about it in the media. You said it was published. Was it -- did you hear

22 it over the radio, Mr. Mitrovic?

23 A. That declaration, the first time I saw that declaration was when I

24 arrived in Samac, and I think it had been forwarded to Mr. Antic, I

25 believe, a journalist, whose task was to publish it over the radio, or

Page 18792

1 maybe he had already announced it on the radio. I saw this declaration or

2 announcement at the Crisis Staff.

3 Q. The Crisis Staff would no doubt have been interested to know

4 whether it had been broadcast on the radio. Did Mr. Antic report to the

5 Crisis Staff or did you see any documents to the effect that it had in

6 fact been published on the radio -- over the radio?

7 A. No, I didn't see any documents to the effect that it had already

8 been published over the radio, but I do know that later the announcement

9 was actually published or broadcast over the radio.

10 Q. When you say "later," how later?

11 A. The next day, or the second next day. Mr. Antic came to the

12 Crisis Staff, and he would come there to see Mr. Simic, I assume - I

13 assume - I assume why.

14 Q. What about its publication in the media? Was it published in a

15 magazine, a newspaper, or nailed on boards around the town? Where did you

16 see it published?

17 A. I don't know whether there were public announcements on boards

18 around the town. I saw the announcement declaration at the Crisis Staff,

19 and I learned from Mr. Antic. He told me that it had been broadcast on

20 the radio, which Mr. Simic also told me, that it was on the radio.

21 Mr. Antic, I believe, had received the task to -- to have this broadcast

22 on the radio.

23 Q. What about publication in the paper media, newspapers, magazines?

24 Did you see it in any newspaper or magazine or hear about its publication?

25 A. During that period of time, I don't think any paper media were

Page 18793

1 being published. I don't remember this being published or publicly

2 announced in any of the written media. If I'm not mistaken, in late April

3 and in May no official newspapers were being published. There was an

4 official newspaper called -- the official newspaper in Samac. I can't

5 remember this at the moment. But I think Mr. Pisarevic and Simic probably

6 know, but the newspaper stopped being published in late April, because I

7 assume they were not able to keep on publishing.

8 Q. So the primary means of the Crisis Staff or the assembly

9 communicating its decisions [Realtime transcript read in error "decision"]

10 to the population was over the radio; is that correct?

11 A. Yes. I did not talk to Mr. Antic specifically about the

12 publishing of this announcement, but I heard this from Mr. Simic in our

13 conversations and at the Crisis Staff while I was there, that this had

14 been broadcast on the radio.

15 Q. There's an error in the transcript. The question I actually asked

16 you was its decisions, not that particular decision. Was the Crisis

17 Staff's primary means of communicating its decisions in the period when

18 you worked there over the radio?

19 A. Yes. I believe I understand your question. I do remember that at

20 the beginning of the period there was a publication, a newspaper, rather,

21 that was called the Koridor, but they began publishing this paper much

22 later as a written media. They were not the official mouth piece of the

23 Crisis Staff or of the War Presidency. This newspaper was published by a

24 company which had in the meantime been activated. I believe the manager

25 of that company was Mr. Simeun Simic.

Page 18794

1 Q. Who was a member of the Crisis Staff or attended Crisis Staff

2 meetings.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The Crisis Staff communicated to Mr. Simeun Simic the decisions it

5 wanted published or things it wanted published, proclamations, et cetera,

6 in Koridor, didn't it?

7 A. I can't remember the exact date when the Koridor newspaper began

8 to be published, but I do know that Mr. Simeun Simic was in charge of

9 information and public communications with the Crisis Staff for a while.

10 Q. Can we just go back to my question. My question was: The Crisis

11 Staff communicated to Mr. Simeun Simic -- or Simeun Simic the decisions it

12 wanted published or things it wanted published, proclamations, et cetera,

13 in Koridor, didn't it? Regardless of the date, the Crisis Staff or War

14 Presidency told him what they wanted published.

15 A. I do not have any direct personal knowledge as to what Simeun

16 Simic's task was, in terms of publishing.

17 Q. Yesterday you were shown a -- I withdraw that.

18 We'll just go back to this in a moment. The Koridor magazine, was

19 it discussed during Crisis Staff meetings? Copies were put around the

20 table and Crisis Staff members looked at it and discussed its content?

21 Did that occur?

22 A. Are you talking about the Koridor?

23 Q. The Koridor magazine, not the Posavina Corridor.

24 A. Yes. This magazine was published and publicly distributed in the

25 municipal area.

Page 18795

1 Q. Mr. --

2 A. It's --

3 Q. Are you having difficulty with the question? Well, the question

4 was: Was it discussed at the Crisis Staff? Please answer that one and

5 not another one.

6 A. I have no knowledge of that, in terms of the Crisis Staff

7 specifically discussing any of the media, or that magazine specifically.

8 Q. All right. We'll move on, then. Yesterday you were shown a

9 document. It's P113, which was the authorisation of Stevan Todorovic to

10 attend the Bosanski -- sorry, the Serbian -- the Assembly of the Serbian

11 Republic meeting to be held on the 25th of July, 1992. You remember being

12 shown that document and you remember the evidence you gave on that

13 yesterday?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. You said Dr. Simic asked you -- or dictated to you or gave you --

16 or told you what to put in the authorisation.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where was Dr. Simic when he gave you the instructions to sign

19 the -- to type and sign this document?

20 A. Mr. Simic, I can't remember his specific location, but I know that

21 he went to Belgrade for medical treatment.

22 Q. He must have done it -- you didn't go to Belgrade to type out this

23 letter, did you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So it occurred in Bosanski Samac, didn't it, his instructions to

Page 18796

1 you?

2 A. Yes. I can't remember the circumstances, but I know that

3 Dr. Simic instructed me to give the letter to Mr. Todorovic.

4 Q. You didn't go to see him in hospital and he gave you the

5 instructions, did you?

6 A. I did see him in hospital once, to see Dr. Simic. I can't

7 remember whether it was the same date, related to this enactment.

8 Q. And when you saw Dr. Simic in hospital, was it in your capacity as

9 Secretary of the Crisis Staff and he in his capacity as President of the

10 Crisis Staff and you went to see him to discuss Crisis Staff or War

11 Presidency business?

12 A. No. I went to Belgrade because my family was staying there, so I

13 used the opportunity to also visit Dr. Simic while there.

14 Q. Now, how long was Dr. Simic out of action for in hospital in

15 Belgrade?

16 A. Well, specifically the amount of time he spent there, I can't

17 remember, but Dr. Simic should know the precise period of time he spent

18 there. I really can't give you a specific time frame now, the period of

19 time that he spent there.

20 Q. All right. It's just the document says that the above name -

21 that's Todorovic - is to represent and act for the municipality as a

22 member of the War Presidency -- sorry, as member of the War Presidency due

23 to the justified absence of the president of the War Presidency, who is in

24 hospital for being -- being treated for a gunshot wound. That's dated the

25 25th of July, 1992. The document seems to indicate that he was in

Page 18797

1 hospital at the time you signed the authorisation. I'm just interested in

2 how Dr. Simic communicated the instructions. Was it by telephone?

3 A. Mr. Todorovic came and said that he had urgent orders to be signed

4 and that he did not have the authority to sign them because he could not

5 sign his own orders but that he had received oral permission from

6 Mr. Simic and oral instructions from Mr. Simic, and he said that this

7 approval had to be issued to him.

8 Q. And as a result of that, you checked with Dr. Simic. That's

9 correct, isn't it?

10 A. I did not have an opportunity to check with him right away, but I

11 had no reason to doubt the allegations of Mr. Todorovic. Mr. Blagoje

12 Simic, upon his return from Belgrade, didn't tell me anything about this

13 document, nothing along the lines of not having given his approval.

14 Q. I just want to clarify something in relation to your evidence

15 yesterday, Mr. Mitrovic. Page 41 of the transcript, His Honour Judge

16 Lindholm asked you some questions about the document, and the questions

17 were:

18 Judge Lindholm: Do you recognise this document?

19 Answer: Yes.

20 Judge Lindholm: It is signed by yourself answer.

21 Answer: Yes. Yes. I had the authority to do that by

22 Dr. Simic.

23 Judge Lindholm: Wasn't there a deputy president within

24 the Crisis Staff?

25 Answer: I don't know whether a deputy was appointed or

Page 18798

1 who that was, but I do remember this document and I

2 remember that Dr. Simic ordered me to sign it.

3 I believe that he at the time was absent or supposed to

4 be somewhere. In any case, he ordered me to forward this

5 urgently to Mr. Todorovic.

6 Now, that's what you said yesterday when Judge Lindholm asked you

7 some questions. Can you please explain how that fits with what you just

8 told us.

9 A. What this means is that Mr. Todorovic had received authorisation

10 from Mr. Simic. I had no reason to doubt Mr. Todorovic's statement.

11 Mr. Todorovic was a very authoritarian person. It would have been

12 impossible for me to try to discuss with him the authenticity of

13 Mr. Blagoje Simic's instructions.

14 Q. Sir, when you said yesterday, "I remember that Dr. Simic ordered

15 me to sign it. I believe that he at the time was absent or was supposed

16 to be somewhere. In any case he ordered me to forward this urgently to

17 Mr. Todorovic," what you meant was Mr. Todorovic -- hang on --

18 Mr. Todorovic ordered -- asked me to sign it and told me that Simic had

19 said it was okay and on that basis I believe that Simic had ordered me to

20 sign it? Is that how you could explain the difference between what you

21 said yesterday and what you said today, or is there some other way of

22 explaining it?

23 A. I think there is no difference between these explanations, as far

24 as the case related to the detainee when Mr. Todorovic was also involved.

25 It's the case we discussed yesterday. So there was no doubt. Mr. Blagoje

Page 18799

1 Simic never told me later that he had not granted his approval, which for

2 me meant that the approval had been granted.

3 Q. Of course it was approval for Mr. Todorovic to attend a -- an

4 assembly meeting of the Serbian Republic. That's basically the Bosnian

5 Serb parliament, as the representative of the Crisis Staff. Dr. Simic was

6 the normal representative of the Crisis Staff for the Bosnian Serb

7 Assembly, wasn't he?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And Dr. Simic attended meetings of the Bosnian Serb Assembly when

10 he could get away from his duties as the president of the Crisis Staff or

11 War Presidency in Bosanski Samac, didn't he?

12 A. I do not know how many meetings of the parliament or the assembly

13 Mr. Blagoje Simic attended, but he probably did attend those meetings in

14 certain periods of time.

15 Q. You say you don't know how many, but you know that he attended

16 some. That's what you're saying, isn't it?

17 A. I believe he was in possession of a decision by the Crisis Staff

18 or, rather, authorisation to attend and to represent Samac Municipality at

19 the parliament and in the bodies of Republika Srpska. He did not go to

20 any great lengths to give me explanations or any information regarding

21 these matters.

22 Q. The attendance of a representative from the Bosanski Samac

23 Municipality was important for the municipality in terms of its

24 relationship with the Bosnian Serb Assembly, wasn't it, because it enabled

25 the Municipality to know directly what was happening at the national level

Page 18800

1 and speak to people, speak to officials there and communicate your views

2 or make representations?

3 A. I assume so, if I understood your question. Yes.

4 Q. That's why it was important for someone from Samac to attend as

5 many -- to attend as regularly as possible the meetings of the Bosnian

6 Serb parliament. You'd agree with that, wouldn't you?

7 A. Yes. And I believe that representatives of all the municipalities

8 attended meetings of the parliament.

9 Q. What do you recall Mr. Simic reporting back to the Crisis Staff or

10 War Presidency about his attending those sessions? What do you remember

11 about reports he made or what other members of the Crisis Staff said or

12 War Presidency said in relation to his attendances at the Bosnian Serb

13 Assembly?

14 A. Well, I cannot really tell you with precision this. I don't know

15 if Mr. Blagoje Simic explained anything at the Crisis Staff meetings or

16 the War Presidency meetings, if he explained the situation that prevailed

17 at the parliament of the Republika Srpska.

18 Q. Do you remember -- do you remember other members of the Crisis

19 Staff or War Presidency discussing with him in advance, before he went to

20 the meetings, telling him what sort of things they wanted him to raise

21 with officials in Banja Luka?

22 A. No. I don't have that kind of personal knowledge.

23 Q. What about Mr. Todorovic? The document authorises his attendance

24 at that Bosnian Serb Assembly meeting on the 25th of July. What did

25 Mr. Todorovic, if anything, say to the War Presidency upon his return

Page 18801

1 about -- about his experience of attending the Bosnian Serb Assembly for

2 the first time?

3 A. If Mr. Todorovic talked about the information and if he gave a

4 report to Mr. Blagoje Simic regarding the meeting, I don't know because I

5 was not present, and Mr. Blagoje Simic is probably the one who could

6 explain to you what his relationship was with Mr. Todorovic, as to whether

7 Mr. Todorovic gave him certain information.

8 Q. Mr. Mitrovic --


10 MR. RE: Sorry, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: You have exhausted your one hour. One hour, which

12 you were allowed to examine this witness.

13 MR. RE: Right.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: You started at 9.50.

15 MR. RE: The Prosecution has a number of things it wishes to put

16 to the witness. Your Honours may have noticed when I simply asked the

17 witness how he was appointed to the assembly, it took almost 15 minutes to

18 get a direct answer. There are a number of topics that I wish to go into

19 very briefly but I have not been able to because a lot of the answers

20 haven't been direct to fairly simple question. The Prosecution has a

21 number of -- about five separate discrete topics I wish to ask him about,

22 but I cannot do so if I can't get direct answers to direct questions,

23 which does not in the time permit the Prosecution to put its case properly

24 to this witness. And there are several things I wish to explore, which in

25 my submission are important for the determination of the case. So I'd ask

Page 18802

1 Your Honours if you could perhaps give me -- I can probably do it in half

2 an hour, if Your Honours give me that time, which in the context of the

3 case and the importance of this witness, in my submission, isn't --

4 wouldn't unnecessarily prolong proceedings.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is of the view that all the

7 parties were given one hour and the Prosecution was informed about that.

8 They know -- they had the subpoena. They knew the areas that this witness

9 was going to cover. And it's the duty of the Trial Chamber to control the

10 proceedings so that everybody is fairly treated, as far as the time is

11 concerned. And as far as the Trial Chamber is concerned, it doesn't

12 appear that there is any more evidence that this witness can cover which

13 has not been covered by other witnesses. So the Trial Chamber will give

14 you 15 minutes to complete.

15 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. You gave some evidence earlier about Mr. Maslic. I want to

17 clarify something from your evidence earlier about Mr. Maslic and the Red

18 Cross, that you said he was involved in the work of the executive board.

19 I want you as briefly and directly as possible to tell us in bullet-point

20 form if possible what were -- what he did in terms of his involvement in

21 the work of the executive board.

22 A. Mr. Maslic was appointed as a member of the executive board in

23 charge of social duties. In other words, he was in charge of education,

24 culture, health care system, and other social activities.

25 Q. I want to ask you about the Red Cross. He was involved in the Red

Page 18803

1 Cross. The municipality, was it providing money -- that is, the Samac

2 Municipality, was it providing funds to the local Red Cross?

3 A. I do not know. I do not know if the Red Cross had any dealings

4 with the executive board, but they cooperated.

5 Q. They cooperated. What was the extent of the cooperation -- what

6 can you tell us about the cooperation between the executive board and the

7 Red Cross?

8 A. I do not know this. I don't have any direct knowledge, because I

9 did not take part in this, but the Red Cross, as well as other similar

10 organisations and institutions, are always linked to the competent organ

11 of the executive board in charge of social activities.

12 Q. Did Mr. Maslic or Mr. Vasovic or any members -- representatives of

13 the Red Cross attend the Crisis Staff or War Presidency meetings to report

14 back or receive instructions or information while you were there?

15 A. I do not have this type of information. I do not recall. Perhaps

16 I wasn't present during those meetings where the activities of the Red

17 Cross were discussed.

18 Q. The short answer is you don't know. Okay. Thank you. We'll move

19 on?

20 A. No. No.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to ask you about -- it's been asked

22 several times that in May, June, and July, who did your duties when you

23 did not attend Crisis Staff or War Presidency meetings? Who was the

24 person who sat in for you, the acting secretary on the meetings you did

25 not attend?

Page 18804

1 A. I do not know.

2 Q. Thank you. The Crisis Staff had several stamps, didn't it?

3 A. I do not know how many stamps it bore. There was a stamp at the

4 Crisis Staff; I know for that one.

5 Q. The Crisis Staff, it issued -- you had a stamp, Dr. Simic had a

6 stamp. That's correct, isn't it? You both had stamps for your work, you

7 as secretary, and he as president of the Crisis Staff, of the War

8 Presidency?

9 A. I don't know how many stamps there were available, but I know that

10 stamps were used. Dr. Blagoje Simic was in charge of the stamps. All the

11 signatures that would appear on the stamps, or at least I can speak for

12 myself, they were all made according to the instructions given by

13 Mr. Blagoje Simic.

14 Q. And he controlled the issue of stamps, did he?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I'm just trying to find out -- and you had access to one for your

17 stamping of the documents which you had to stamp and the documents you

18 signed in your own personal capacity -- or sorry, your own official

19 capacity as Secretary of the Crisis Staff or the Assembly?

20 A. Yes, the stamp was at the office of the Crisis Staff, and as far

21 as I know, the stamp was not under any particular protection. It was not

22 kept in a certain special area.

23 Q. Mr. Lukic and Their Honours asked you about a document D55/1,

24 which is the payroll of the War Presidency, which has your name on it as a

25 member. You said you had some doubts about its authenticity. Now, this

Page 18805

1 document was put into evidence by Dr. Simic. What causes you to doubt its

2 authenticity?

3 A. For instance, correcting a document, adding a name of a person,

4 the change of a date, for instance, even when it comes to my own signature

5 I'm not sure that this is my own signature, and I especially started

6 having some doubts when I saw that I was considered to be a member of the

7 Crisis Staff.

8 Q. The Crisis Staff issued authorisations to several people to travel

9 abroad, that is, to -- to another country, that is, Serbia, to approach

10 people and organisations for assistance, didn't it? And they were

11 Slavoljub Nikolic, Vidoje Nikolic and yourself?

12 A. I was shown some documents yesterday and those documents are

13 unknown to me, the documents that I saw yesterday.

14 Q. What about your own authorisation? The Crisis Staff or the War

15 Presidency authorised you, didn't they, as their representative to travel

16 to Yugoslavia to obtain -- to travel outside the country if necessary to

17 obtain assistance for the people of Bosanski Samac?

18 A. I do not know. I do not recall. I do know that I went to

19 Belgrade and that I asked for assistance. If I recall correctly, it was

20 an association for Serbs [As interpreted] from Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

21 I talked to a man. What was his name now? Let me see. I think it was

22 Gajic, if I'm not mistaken. That was his last name. And this man

23 represented this association, if I recall correctly.

24 Q. When did you go to Belgrade --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

Page 18806

1 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I do apologise to my learned friend

2 and to the Trial Chamber. It's line -- it's page 51, line 16, just for

3 the sake of clarity. Witness said that that was association of Serbs from

4 Bosnia and Hercegovina, not for Serbs. I mean, just a correction to be

5 clear.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That will be corrected.

7 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, the month and year, as best as you can, when you

9 went to Belgrade? Nothing else, please.

10 A. I really don't remember. Was it in 1993 or another year? I

11 really cannot remember.

12 Q. Did you travel outside Bosanski Samac on behalf of the

13 Municipality of the Crisis Staff seeking assistance any other time in 1992

14 and 1993?

15 A. I really don't recall travelling. I really don't recall.

16 Q. What were you doing in May, June, and July in Obudovac? That's in

17 1992.

18 A. Since at the time the Crisis Staff was established and it was

19 operational and I was the secretary of the actual municipal assembly and

20 Dr. Blagoje Simic told me at the time that my presence was not

21 indispensable at all times during the meetings of the Crisis Staff, so he

22 sent me to Obudovac, where I come from, to give my assistance to a unit

23 for evacuation and it was a humanitarian organisation. Obudovac was in a

24 very difficult situation at the time. A lot of refugees were coming from

25 the surrounding areas and they were all coming to Obudovac, so that unit

Page 18807

1 in charge of the evacuation and accommodation, and I can tell you that

2 Novak Tenasic was the head of that organisation, that organisation was in

3 charge of giving assistance and accommodation to that population, but they

4 were also in charge of the local population as well. And I can recall

5 that even for the local population we had organised some works, such as

6 building, in Bijeljina.

7 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, there's evidence before this Trial Chamber that a

8 meeting -- this is for the Court's benefit at page 9082 -- a meeting in

9 Crkvina on the night of the 16th and 17th of April, 1992 at about 1.00

10 a.m. at which Mr. Jovanovic, Dr. Simic, Mr. Bogdanovic, possibly

11 Mr. Simic, and -- Simeun Simic, and you were present. What can you tell

12 the Trial Chamber about the meeting at about 1.00 a.m. on the night of the

13 16th, the 17th of 1992 in Crkvina?

14 MR. PANTELIC: Before the witness --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

16 MR. PANTELIC: -- can answer, Your Honour -- I do apologise to my

17 learned friend, just for the sake of -- to be fair with the witness.

18 Meaning of "evidence" in common law jurisdiction and also between --

19 before this Trial Chamber -- I mean, this Tribunal is rather different

20 than the meaning in our legal system. So in fairness to the witness,

21 maybe the term "evidence" should be replaced with, let's say, "statement

22 of witnesses" or, you know, some kind of -- I don't know, "documents, if

23 any," so it should be more specific to this witness. Otherwise, me might

24 be confused that this "evidence," under the marks, notation, might be for

25 him indisputable evidence, which is of course in dispute in this case.

Page 18808

1 JUDGE MUMBA: But your intervention doesn't mean anything, because

2 the Prosecution has simply said there's evidence that there was a meeting

3 and the witness can answer to that.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. But I'm speaking in terms of the

5 language, B/C/S translation. The word "evidence" in our language is more

6 strict in this particular -- because, for example, it is not evidence in

7 our legal system, statement of witness before the Trial Chamber. It is

8 not evidence. The evidence is only a fact which is determined by the

9 Trial Chamber after the proceedings. So in that sense I kindly ask my

10 learned friend to say that, for example, there was a statement of various

11 persons or witnesses before this Trial Chamber that this meeting occurred

12 in Crkvina, something like that. That was the basis for my intervention,

13 Your Honour. Otherwise, the witness can be confused, because the

14 meaning -- the term "evidence" in our language is rather different than in

15 English language and in common law jurisdiction. That's the basis, Your

16 Honour. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may. Your Honour, I would just

19 like to add something. I believe that the Prosecutor by asking questions

20 in this fashion is asking questions about something that the Trial Chamber

21 has already decided on. I don't know if the Prosecutor would like to

22 confront this witness with the testimony of another witness. I don't know

23 what is on that page. But I believe that the Trial Chamber has already

24 decided that such a procedure would not be allowed. I believe, and I

25 concur with my colleague, Mr. Pantelic, that one could ask questions in a

Page 18809

1 different way, because the Trial Chamber has already decided and stated

2 that it is not allowed in this court proceeding to proceed this way, that

3 is, to confront the witness with the testimony of another witness.

4 MR. RE: I'm happy to rephrase the question, as Mr. Pantelic

5 suggests, to make it clearer for the witness. But I'm not confronting the

6 witness. I'm following the Trial Chamber's clear instructions, which are

7 not to put the direct testimony and say X said such and such but to say

8 there is evidence before this Trial Chamber of X, what do you say to this?

9 That's simply what I'm doing. But I'm quite happy to rephrase the

10 question to evidence is stated by someone.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re. You can proceed.

12 MR. RE: Yes. Thank you.

13 Q. Mr. Mitrovic --

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 JUDGE MUMBA: You can rephrase your question. It's been quite a

16 lot of intervention.

17 MR. RE: It was four minutes ago, and it's disappeared. I had to

18 find what it was.

19 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, my question was: A witness has given evidence -- or

20 a witness has made a statement before this Trial Chamber of a meeting

21 occurring in Crkvina on the night of the 16th and 17th of April, 1992 at

22 about 1.00 a.m. In which the participants were Mr. Jovanovic, Dr. Simic,

23 Mr. Bogdanovic, yourself, and possibly Mr. Simeun Simic. What can you

24 tell the Trial Chamber about that meeting?

25 MR. LUKIC: Objection. [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

Page 18810

1 The Prosecutor only changed the word. He said "witness" but did not

2 change the word "evidence." So why doesn't he ask the following question:

3 Mr. Mitrovic, were you present at the meeting at such and such a date?

4 But one cannot confront the witness with a statement of another witness,

5 and you members of the Trial Chamber have already ruled on this. But I

6 have the feeling that my learned friend is trying to confuse the witness

7 and put forward to him that another person is stating something different.

8 This is the basis of my objection.

9 MR. RE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... the Trial Chamber

10 there was a meeting, he was there --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. --

12 MR. RE: What can he say about it? That's all.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re, can we get out of this problem. Just ask

14 him whether he attended such a meeting and what transpired, who was

15 present. All right?

16 MR. RE: I thought "what can you tell us about the meeting"

17 wrapped all things up.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re, can you just follow instructions of the

19 Trial Chamber and go ahead?

20 MR. RE: Of course, Your Honour. Of course I will.

21 Q. This meeting about which a statement has been made to this Trial

22 Chamber, were you present at that meeting?

23 A. No.

24 MR. RE: I can't take it any further. I have no further

25 questions.

Page 18811

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic. I think we have finished

3 with your evidence. You may leave the courtroom.

4 Did you want anything, Mr. Pantelic?

5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I thought maybe -- do I have a

6 right for a redirect?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, no. This witness was called by the

8 Trial Chamber, and you were given your time to ask questions. And these

9 instructions were given long before the witness came.

10 Can the witness be led out of the courtroom, please.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber has been informed that there is no

13 other witness today, unfortunately, because the other witnesses we are

14 given to understand are only coming in today, for Thursday and Friday.

15 The Trial Chamber has been informed, Mr. Pantelic, that the

16 Victims and Witnesses Unit haven't got any particulars of the witness in

17 place -- you're calling in place of Mr. Krajisnik, so they are -- they

18 cannot start making arrangements for his travel, and this would delay the

19 witness coming.

20 MR. PANTELIC: I will explain, Your Honour. Mr. -- Dr. Stanko

21 Pivasevic will be able to arrange his passport today or at latest

22 tomorrow, since we got our Orthodox -- Orthodox Easter these days, and it

23 was not possible for him on a short notice to apply for -- for a passport.

24 Dr. Pivasevic is one of the -- the only person, I could say, in the

25 medical centre of Samac. And before Easter he was on permanent duty,

Page 18812

1 around the clock, so he was not able physically even to apply and go to --

2 to the police authorities, which is 70 kilometres from -- from Samac. I

3 believe today or tomorrow he will -- because he is -- he is a deputy, he

4 is a member, MP, he's --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Look, Mr. Pantelic, this isn't the first time we are

6 having anybody from that area coming here as a witness, and the Victims

7 and Witnesses Unit always assist witnesses obtaining these travel

8 documents as soon as they are told about the particulars of the witness,

9 which you haven't done. So it's no use telling the Trial Chamber because

10 you haven't done your work properly, and this is not the first time that

11 -- you are always delaying giving the particulars of your witnesses to

12 the to Victims and Witnesses Unit for them to start working on these

13 travel arrangements.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I do apologise deeply for this

15 inconvenience, if there is something for the Defence, I take all

16 responsibility. But --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But it doesn't pay to keep delaying the

18 calling of your witnesses when in fact you -- you are representing the

19 first accused and your witnesses should have been completed by now.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, just for your information, just a week

21 ago the instruction of Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs came to our

22 attention through Victims and Witnesses Unit saying that specifically

23 passports for Bosnia-Herzegovina should be applied.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: That -- that is old news. We have been informed

25 about that sometime back, and that was the problem with the previous time,

Page 18813

1 which was explained to the Trial Chamber and the Victims and Witnesses

2 Unit are well aware of that problem, so there is no reason to waste time

3 on this.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I'll do my best by the end of

5 this week to arrange everything. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And he's replacing Dr. Krajisnik.

7 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: So he will stick to the evidence that Dr. Krajisnik

9 was supposed to give.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: And we have a list here -- it doesn't include

11 Mr. Marko Tubakovic, Mr. Pisarevic. He's also supposed to come, and the

12 Trial Chamber the last time did say that he ought to come as soon as

13 possible so that he can complete his evidence before Mr. Simo Zaric.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely. Your Honour, we

15 have taken all the necessary measures. Mr. Tubakovic will arrive to The

16 Hague on Saturday and he will testify on Monday.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Very well.

18 There being no other business, the Trial Chamber will rise.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.00 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of May,

21 2003, at 9.00 a.m.