Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 220

1 Wednesday, 28th October, 1998

2 (Further Initial Appearance)

3 (Open session)

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.45 p.m.

5 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated.

6 Mr. Registrar, have the accused brought in and call the

7 case.

8 (The accused entered court)

9 THE REGISTRAR: It is the case IT-95-9-PT,

10 the Prosecutor versus Stevan Todorovic, also known as

11 Stiv, also known as Stevo, also known as Monstrum.

12 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic, you may be

13 seated. Can we have the appearances, the Prosecution

14 first, as soon as the photographer has finished.

15 Madam Prosecutor?

16 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President, as you

17 know, my name is Nancy Paterson. I'm representing the

18 Office of the Prosecutor today. To my right is the new

19 senior trial attorney assigned to this case, Mrs. Anne

20 Haslund from Denmark. Since she has just recently

21 arrived at the Tribunal, I will be handling the session

22 today, but at future sessions, Mrs. Haslund will be the

23 lead attorney. On her right is John Michelich.

24 JUDGE JORDA: First of all, we wish Ms. Anne

25 Haslund welcome. Am I pronouncing your name correctly,

Page 221

1 Haslund? Is that your name, Madam?

2 MS. HASLUND: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE JORDA: On behalf of my colleagues, we

4 wish you welcome to the Office of the Prosecutor and,

5 for the moment, to this Chamber.

6 The Defence counsel for Mr. Todorovic is?

7 MR. NESKOVIC: My name is Goran Neskovic,

8 attorney at law.

9 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I should like to

10 recall that on the 30th of September, we asked

11 Mr. Todorovic, who had just been arrested, to indicate,

12 with the help of his counsel, how he pleaded, whether

13 he pleaded guilty or not guilty.

14 As you recall, Mr. Neskovic, your client,

15 said that the conditions of his arrest and the medical

16 consequences of that arrest, that is, the blow that he

17 suffered on his head, caused him to suffer, and that

18 due to that injury, he didn't consider himself capable

19 of pleading.

20 You asked the Chamber to undertake additional

21 medical examinations, more specifically, to be examined

22 by a scanner. Dr. Mosmans, who is a neurologic

23 specialist, gave us his report on the 8th of October

24 and said that there was no irregularity in the

25 condition and that he didn't consider any scanning

Page 222

1 examination necessary, as his neurological examination

2 showed that there were no abnormalities. The accused

3 was informed of this, as well as both parties.

4 Under those conditions, I turn now to

5 Mr. Todorovic. Mr. Todorovic, will you please rise?

6 My first question is, how do you feel, Mr. Todorovic?

7 THE ACCUSED: Mr. President, I feel much

8 better now, and I would like to thank you personally

9 and the Chamber in general for providing this

10 opportunity to me and for the high regard that you

11 showed in respect of me and my health. I hope that I

12 will not suffer any additional consequences. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. That was quite

15 normal, because you told us that you were in pain.

16 When listening to the indictment, it was important to

17 make sure that you could understand well what the

18 Prosecution is charging you with before pleading.

19 You also remember, Mr. Todorovic, and you

20 will tell me if you do, that the indictment was read to

21 you. Do you wish us to reread it or to simply remind

22 you of the counts? I'm asking your opinion, and I will

23 ask your Defence counsel for his opinion too. Would

24 you like us to read the whole indictment and ask you to

25 plead on each count, or if you prefer another

Page 223

1 procedure. What is your feeling? Would you like your

2 Defence counsel to express his opinion instead of you?

3 THE ACCUSED: Mr. President, my counsel,

4 Mr. Neskovic, read to me the indictment in its entirety

5 at the detention unit, and I do understand it. As far

6 as I'm concerned, there is no need for a full reading

7 of the indictment.

8 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I now turn to

9 Mr. Neskovic. Do you agree with the position taken by

10 your client?

11 MR. NESKOVIC: Yes, I do, Mr. President.

12 Only a reading of the individual counts is necessary.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Madam Nancy Paterson, are you

14 in agreement with this procedure, bearing in mind what

15 happened at the previous initial appearance?

16 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President. We have

17 no objections to that.

18 JUDGE JORDA: I turn to the registrar now,

19 and in full agreement with the accused, this will enter

20 in the record. We are going to ask Mr. Dubuisson to

21 read, with precision, the counts that concern

22 Mr. Todorovic in the present indictment. We are going

23 to ask Mr. Todorovic whether he pleads guilty or not

24 guilty.

25 Mr. Dubuisson, let us take the indictment.

Page 224

1 Counts 27, isn't that so?

2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE JORDA: We will begin with paragraph

4 28. You will read the paragraph, the title of the

5 count, and then read each of the counts. After each

6 count, Mr. Todorovic, I will ask you to tell the Judges

7 whether you plead guilty or not guilty.

8 Mr. Dubuisson, you have the floor.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Counts 27 to 29, killing of

10 Anto Brandic: 28) On about 29 July, 1992 in the

11 hallway of the SUP building in Bosanski Samac, Stevan

12 Todorovic and others killed Anto Brandic, also known as

13 Antesa, by repeatedly beating and kicking him with

14 police batons and heavy boots. By these actions,

15 Stevan Todorovic committed or otherwise aided and

16 abetted:

17 Count 27: a grave breach recognised by

18 Article 2(a) (wilful killing) of the Tribunal Statute.

19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic, regarding Count

20 27, in agreement with your counsel, do you intend to

21 plead guilty or not guilty?

22 THE ACCUSED: I plead not guilty in respect

23 of this count.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Count 28, Mr. Dubuisson.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Count 28: a violation of the

Page 225

1 laws or customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the

2 Tribunal Statute and Article 3(1)(a) (murder) of the

3 Geneva Conventions.

4 JUDGE JORDA: Count 28, do you plead guilty

5 or not guilty, Mr. Todorovic?

6 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Count 29: a crime against

8 humanity recognised by Article 5(a) (murder) of the

9 Tribunal Statute.

10 JUDGE JORDA: Do you plead guilty or not

11 guilty?

12 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Dubuisson, let us go on to

14 Counts 30 to 32; isn't that so?

15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Counts 30 to 32,

16 beatings in the SUP building: 29) On about 29 July,

17 1992 in the hallway of the SUP building in Bosanski

18 Samac, Stevan Todorovic and others repeatedly beat and

19 kicked Enver Ibralic, Hasan Jasarevic, Omer Nalic, and

20 Father Jozo Puskaric with police batons and heavy

21 boots, thereby causing the victims physical injury. By

22 these actions, Stevan Todorovic committed or otherwise

23 aided and abetted:

24 Count 30: a grave breach (wilfully causing

25 great suffering) recognised by Article 2(c) of the

Page 226

1 Tribunal Statute.

2 JUDGE JORDA: Do you plead guilty or not

3 guilty?

4 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.

5 JUDGE JORDA: Count 31.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Count 31: a violation of the

7 laws or customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the

8 Tribunal Statute and Article 3(1)(a) (cruel treatment)

9 of the Geneva Conventions.

10 JUDGE JORDA: Do you plead guilty or not

11 guilty?

12 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Count 32: a crime against

14 humanity recognised by Article 5(i) (inhumane acts) of

15 the Tribunal Statute.

16 JUDGE JORDA: Do you plead guilty or not

17 guilty?

18 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Counts 33 to 35, beating of

20 Silvestar Antunovic. 30) On about 15 July, 1992 in the

21 gymnasium of the Bosanski Samac primary school, Stevan

22 Todorovic and others repeatedly beat Silvestar

23 Antunovic with a large wooden club. As a result of the

24 beating, Silvestar Antunovic suffered partial paralysis

25 and other serious physical injury. By these actions,

Page 227

1 Stevan Todorovic committed or otherwise aided and

2 abetted:

3 Count 33: a grave breach recognised by

4 Article 2(c) (wilfully causing great suffering) of the

5 Tribunal Statute.

6 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Count 34: a violation of the

8 laws or customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the

9 Tribunal Statute and Article 3(1)(a) (cruel treatment)

10 of the Geneva Conventions.

11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic?

12 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Count 35: a crime against

14 humanity recognised by Article 5(i) (inhumane acts) of

15 the Tribunal Statute.

16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic?

17 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty, Your Honour.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Counts 36 to 38, sexual

19 assault. 31) On about 13 June, 1992 in the hallway of

20 the Bosanski Samac SUP building, Stevan Todorovic

21 forced Witness A and Witness B to perform sexual acts

22 upon each other in the presence of several other

23 prisoners and guards. By these actions, Stevan

24 Todorovic instigated, ordered, and committed:

25 Count 36: a grave breach recognised by

Page 228

1 Article 2(b) (inhumane treatment) of the Tribunal

2 Statute.

3 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic?

4 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Count 37: a violation of the

6 laws or customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the

7 Tribunal Statute and Article 3(1)(c) (humiliating and

8 degrading treatment) of the Geneva Conventions.

9 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic?

10 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Count 38: a crime against

12 humanity recognised by Article 5(g) (rape, which

13 includes other forms of sexual assault) of the Tribunal

14 Statute.

15 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Counts 39 to 41, torture of

17 Omer Nalic. 32) On about 19 June, 1992 at the Bosanski

18 Samac primary school, while questioning Omer Nalic

19 about a radio transmitter, Stevan Todorovic ordered

20 three men to beat Omer Nalic. By these actions, Stevan

21 Todorovic instigated, ordered, committed, or aided and

22 abetted:

23 Count 39: a grave breach recognised by

24 Article 2(b) (torture) of the Tribunal Statute.

25 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.

Page 229

1 THE REGISTRAR: Count 40: a violation of the

2 laws or customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the

3 Tribunal Statute and Article 3(1)(a) (torture) of the

4 Geneva Conventions.

5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic?

6 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Count 41: a crime against

8 humanity recognised by Article 5(f) (torture) of the

9 Geneva Conventions.

10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic?

11 THE ACCUSED: I plead not guilty.

12 JUDGE JORDA: You may be seated,

13 Mr. Todorovic.

14 THE ACCUSED: Thank you.

15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic, the written

16 record of this hearing has registered the fact that you

17 have pleaded not guilty to all the counts alleged by

18 the Office of the Prosecutor.

19 I turn to Mrs. Nancy Paterson to ask her how

20 she foresees the procedural proceedings before this

21 Tribunal, where we are regarding the disclosure of

22 statements of the accused and other persons in support

23 of the indictment. I will also ask the opinion of the

24 Defence, whether we can set at least a provisional

25 timetable.

Page 230

1 Mrs. Paterson?

2 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think

3 the office of the Prosecutor has been proceeding with

4 the discovery obligations in a very timely matter. We

5 have provided all the material in support of this

6 indictment to Mr. Neskovic at the last appearance on

7 the 30th of September, 1998. We have complied with

8 Rule 66(a)(i). All material has been turned over, and

9 that's been turned over in the language that

10 Mr. Todorovic can understand.

11 We are prepared to turn over some additional

12 discovery material to Mr. Neskovic that we have already

13 provided to the other three Defence attorneys for the

14 other three accused. We can turn that over almost

15 immediately, if the Court so prefers. I believe that

16 we did mention at the last proceeding that, as a result

17 of the arrival of Mr. Todorovic, we do anticipate

18 amending this indictment to reflect his inclusion with

19 the other three men that we have in custody. We are

20 prepared to proceed with submitting that amended

21 indictment as quickly as possible, pending some

22 discussions we would like to have with Mr. Neskovic

23 before we make that final decision.

24 We have been proceeding with the discovery

25 for the other three accused in a very timely manner.

Page 231

1 We have turned over all of the witness statements that

2 we're obligated to up to this point in time. We have

3 complied with their request under Rule 66. We will be

4 providing a significant amount of additional discovery

5 material tomorrow to the other Defence counsel.

6 Basically, we have complied with all of our disclosure

7 obligations up to the point when the Court sets a trial

8 date, and our final discovery obligations then become

9 effective. I don't know, frankly, what more we can be

10 doing to move along the discovery process.

11 We are quite hopeful that, despite the fact

12 that Mr. Todorovic has come into the custody of the

13 Tribunal significantly after the arrival of the other

14 three accused, we are optimistic that that should not

15 significantly delay our ability to start the trial at

16 approximately the same time we had hoped to be able to

17 begin, prior to the arrival of Mr. Todorovic. We are

18 prepared to expedite our discovery material to

19 Mr. Neskovic so that we can move the case to trial as

20 quickly as possible.

21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Neskovic?

22 MR. NESKOVIC: Mr. President, I received some

23 materials from the Prosecutor one month ago. I'm

24 currently studying them, and I am preparing my

25 strategy. I will provide to the Prosecutor certain

Page 232

1 witness statements myself. But since Mr. Todorovic is

2 not fully linked with the other three accused, because

3 they have been preparing for their Defence for about a

4 year and Mr. Todorovic has been detained for only a

5 limited amount of time, I will need some additional

6 time to prepare my Defence.

7 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. You know that as of

8 today and the disclosure of the statements, we can fix

9 the date for preliminary motions. I'm now going to

10 give the floor to Judge Rodrigues who has been

11 appointed as the Pre-Trial Judge for Todorovic and the

12 three other accused.

13 Judge Rodrigues, you accepted to be the

14 Pre-Trial Judge. Do you wish to comment, perhaps?

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Yes, I am the Pre-Trial Judge for the Simic case. I

17 think that the intention of the Chamber was always to

18 deal with the case with the four accused who were, from

19 the beginning, charged under the same indictment. We

20 have heard and understood well what the Defence counsel

21 has just said, but I think that there are some common

22 elements among all the accused, so that it would be

23 desirable to have the trial together. That is my

24 opinion as the Pre-Trial Judge. I think that this view

25 is shared by the President and Judge Fuad Riad.

Page 233

1 That is all I had to say at the moment,

2 Mr. President.

3 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. We need to set a

4 date for the Status Conference under your

5 chairmanship.

6 Mr. Neskovic, do you intend to submit any

7 preliminary motions within the 30-day deadline after

8 the disclosure of documents, because if I understood

9 well, Ms. Paterson, you will be disclosing all the

10 materials today or tomorrow. I remind you of the

11 provisions of Article 66(a)(i) "Within 30 days of the

12 initial appearance of the accused, copies of the

13 supporting material which accompanied the indictment

14 when confirmation was sought should be disclosed," and

15 that time begins to run, I think, in Article 72 or

16 Article 73. This is specified in Rule 72. You are

17 able to submit preliminary motions not later than 30

18 days after disclosure by the Prosecutor of all material

19 and statements referred to in Rule 66(a)(i).

20 Can we fix today this period of 30 days,

21 Ms. Paterson?

22 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President. We

23 complied with Rule 66(a)(i) to provide all the

24 supporting material. We gave that to Mr. Neskovic on

25 the 30th of September. He has already has that

Page 234

1 material for three or four weeks. From that

2 perspective, there's no reason why we can't set the

3 date.

4 What I stated earlier is that we're prepared

5 to provide additional discovery to him that,

6 technically, we're not even obligated to at this point,

7 but in an attempt to move the case along, we will

8 provide him with the same discovery material we have

9 already provided to the other three Defence attorneys.

10 JUDGE JORDA: I think that we can count the

11 30-day period as of today, the day of the initial

12 appearance. That deadline will be the 30th of

13 November.

14 Are you agreeable, Mr. Neskovic? You will

15 have until the 30th of November to decide whether you

16 will submit one or several preliminary motions in

17 defence of your client under Article 72 of the Rules of

18 Procedures and Evidence.

19 Mr. Fourmy has just reminded me of

20 something. He is watching over our work with

21 vigilance, and I thank him. He reminds me that

22 Ms. Paterson intends to modify the indictment. That is

23 more of a formal nature, is it not? You are simply

24 going to reintroduce Mr. Todorovic's name in the

25 already amended indictment or do you intend to make

Page 235

1 other amendments? Otherwise, this 30-day period will

2 be delayed.

3 MS. PATERSON: Mr. President, as things stand

4 now, we would intend to, as you say, essentially just

5 put Mr. Todorovic into the currently existing amended

6 indictment, which would mean adding a persecution count

7 against Mr. Todorovic and restating the counts

8 essentially as they are written now, perhaps with

9 adding a couple of additional victims to some of the

10 counts, but no additional substantive counts, other

11 than what already exists in the amended indictment

12 pending against the other three accused.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I am now addressing

14 the Defence counsel. In view of the intention

15 announced by the Office of the Prosecution, do you

16 agree that we set the date as November the 30th,

17 regardless of the amendment which will require that we

18 have another small initial appearance.

19 Do you agree that in order to save time we

20 fix November the 30th as the deadline for the

21 submission of any possible preliminary motions?

22 MR. NESKOVIC: Yes, I agree, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Judge Rodrigues had

24 all this in mind and will bear all this in mind for his

25 future efforts.

Page 236

1 Mr. Fourmy, are there any other matters to

2 deal with?

3 Judge Rodrigues, yes?

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, Ms. Nancy

5 Paterson. I didn't quite understand whether you were

6 going to add other counts or at least one count or do

7 you intend only to add other victims? Could you clear

8 that point up for me, please?

9 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President. In the

10 amended indictment currently pending against the other

11 three accused, there is a persecution count which was

12 not included in this indictment. We will add a count

13 of persecution against Mr. Todorovic, and the other

14 counts that have just been read to him today will

15 remain. The only difference may be that, in what are

16 now Counts 36 to 38 involving sexual assaults, we may

17 add some additional victims to that count, but

18 otherwise, the counts will remain essentially the

19 same.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In any event, I think that

21 this can be done quickly so as to have the trial of all

22 four accused together.

23 MS. PATERSON: Yes. It's our intention to

24 submit that as quickly as possible. First, having to

25 have some consultations with Mr. Neskovic concerning

Page 237

1 his client and the direction he would like to see the

2 case proceed, we will attempt to have those as quickly

3 as possible, and we will try to submit the amended

4 indictment, hopefully, within the next two weeks.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. President, would you

6 allow me to ask Mr. Olivier Fourmy whether there is an

7 available date that we can set for our next Status

8 Conference?

9 Mr. Fourmy, are you in a position to tell us,

10 in consultation with the Registry, whether we can

11 already set a date today for our next Status

12 Conference.

13 MR. FOURMY: Mr. President, I would prefer

14 the registrar to give you an answer to that question.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Marc Dubuisson, can you

16 give me a date?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. We could,

18 perhaps, have a Status Conference. You would probably

19 prefer after the 30-day period.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: No, before the 30-day

21 period for preliminary motions.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Then we could set Wednesday

23 morning, the 18th of November as a date.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Before that date, next

25 week?

Page 238

1 THE REGISTRAR: Next week, we could meet on

2 Wednesday, the 4th of November, Wednesday morning at

3 10.00.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. President, if I may,

5 may I ask Madam Nancy Paterson whether this date is

6 suitable for a Status Conference?

7 MS. PATERSON: Just give me one moment.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse us, Ms. Nancy

9 Paterson, could you please respond to my question?

10 MS. PATERSON: Mr. President, from the

11 perspective of the OTP, we have no problem with the 4th

12 meeting. I would just bring to your attention a couple

13 of matters. It's our understanding that at least two

14 of the Defence attorneys for the other accused are here

15 in The Hague this week, but I don't know what their

16 travel plans were as to whether they were planning to

17 be here next week. I don't believe that the attorney

18 for Mr. Milan Simic is here. As you're aware, with the

19 travel situation in Serbia as a result of the Kosovo

20 problems, it is somewhat difficult for the attorneys to

21 arrange travel plans on short notice.

22 In addition, I'm assuming, if you want that

23 quick of a date, you do not expect us to have submitted

24 and have confirmed the amended indictment. As long as

25 that is understood, that that will take us a bit longer

Page 239

1 to do that, then we have no objection to a meeting next

2 week.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Regarding Mr. Neskovic,

4 what is your opinion, Defence counsel?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

6 MR. NESKOVIC: This delay is very close. I

7 would like to have it moved later on, because the

8 travel arrangements are rather problematic, and it is

9 very difficult for us to come to The Hague from

10 Belgrade.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you. The concern of

12 the Pre-Trial Judge is the following: Mr. President,

13 Judge Jorda, at the previous appearance of the other

14 accused, in a sense, promised that after the 16th of

15 October, we would have a Status Conference. That date

16 was not observed because we had the initial appearance

17 of Mr. Todorovic. I think that we need at least to

18 give an explanation to the other accused regarding the

19 situation with this trial, and we need to convey to

20 them the state of the proceedings.

21 I also understand that the date may be rather

22 too early, so perhaps it would be better to see the

23 calendar, to bear in mind your remarks. After that, we

24 will communicate with you to tell you the date chosen.

25 But as the Pre-Trial Judge, I would prefer to have a

Page 240

1 Status Conference as soon as possible because we also

2 have the three other accused who are still waiting for

3 the Tribunal to provide information to them or to give

4 them an opportunity to know, to learn, the status of

5 these proceedings. That is my concern.

6 In any event, it would be better to set a

7 date a little later. I have no further questions.

8 JUDGE JORDA: Are there any other remarks or

9 observations, Ms. Paterson?

10 MS. PATERSON: No, Mr. President. We will

11 make ourselves available on whatever date the Court

12 suggests.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Mr. Neskovic?

14 MR. NESKOVIC: No further remarks, Your

15 Honour. Thank you.

16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Fourmy, any remarks? No.

17 In that case, the hearing is adjourned.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 3.25 p.m. sine die