Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1

1 Wednesday, 29th September, 1999

2 [Rule 77 Hearing]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.43 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will the Registrar call the

7 case, please?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

9 Case number IT-95-9-R77.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will have the appearances

11 now beginning with the concerned party, the Office of

12 the Prosecutor.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: May it please the Court. Dirk

14 Ryneveld, and with me today are Nancy Paterson, Suzanne

15 Hayden, and Daniel Saxon, and our case manager, Andrew

16 Powell. We're prepared to proceed this morning.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next we'll have the

18 appearances in respect of Mr. Avramovic and Milan

19 Simic.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel,

21 please.

22 MR. HAYNES: May it please Your Honours.

23 Peter Haynes representing both Avramovic and Simic, and

24 subject to the Trial Chamber's discretion, I would wish

25 to be assisted by Ms. Cmeric who sits next to me at the

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1 moment.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will deal with that

3 matter later.

4 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Appearances in respect of

6 the other concerned parties.

7 MR. BRASHICH: Deyan Brashich for Todorovic

8 Defence, Your Honour.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

10 Igor Pantelic on behalf of Mr. Miroslav Tadic.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

12 attorney Novak Lukic co-counsel for Mr. Tadic.

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Borislav

14 Pisarevic, defence attorney for Mr. Simo Zaric.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Slobodan

16 Zecevic, co-counsel for Mr. Simic.

17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Good morning, Your Honours.

18 Eugene O'Sullivan, co-counsel for Mr. Simic on the

19 trial indictment.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. I understand

21 that we'll have some applications, and it would be in

22 order to have these applications made in closed

23 session. So we will now move into closed session.

24 [Closed session]

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17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, we'll start with

19 you in respect of the three other matters.

20 MR. HAYNES: Can I deal with the purely

21 administrative matter first, which I hope the Court

22 will grant, and that's the question of my assistance in

23 the Court during the proceedings? I have two clients

24 to deal with now, as you know, Mr. Simic and

25 Mr. Avramovic, and apart from anything else, I need the

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1 constant services of an interpreter.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We grant that.

3 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much.

4 I think the only outstanding matter,

5 therefore, is the request for really what is guidance

6 from the Trial Chamber as to the scope of the evidence

7 it is prepared to hear from Mr. Agnes.

8 The Trial Chamber, of course, in effect, and

9 I use the term loosely, formulated the charges in this

10 case on the 7th of July, and those charges were based

11 upon the evidence contained in Mr. Agnes' first four

12 witness statements. He has, since then, made a further

13 witness statement which goes, it seems, way beyond the

14 scope of the allegations formulated by the Trial

15 Chamber on the 7th of July. It purports to include

16 fresh allegations made against other lawyers not before

17 the Tribunal and not named in any of the charges. It

18 purports to broaden the scope of the alleged contempt

19 into one not only of, as it were, interference with him

20 directly but the use of him as a conduit to get in

21 touch with further potential witnesses. The

22 application is really one for guidance as to what sort

23 of evidence he should be permitted to give.

24 But perhaps more seriously, as I understand

25 the position, and you'll forgive me, I'm not in

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1 possession of all the briefs and files relating to the

2 trial indictment, Mr. Agnes is likely now to be a

3 witness who is heard by the Tribunal on the trial

4 indictment, which is unlikely to take place, as I

5 understand the position, until sometime next year, and

6 the Tribunal, in due course, is going to have to form a

7 view in relation to his credibility in respect of the

8 more serious matters he might give evidence about in

9 due course. That evidence affects not only Mr. Simic

10 but also other accused, who I imagine are not proposing

11 to embark upon cross-examination with him in these

12 proceedings, about some allegations he makes in 1992

13 and 1993, and it's my submission that the Trial

14 Chamber, having taken the trouble to formulate detailed

15 allegations which it has called upon Mr. Simic and his

16 counsel to meet under the provisions of Rule 77(F),

17 that the evidence that the Trial Chamber receives

18 should be limited to the question of proving or

19 otherwise those particular allegations.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, the matters that

21 you're raising, are they not matters that relate to the

22 admissibility of evidence and which it would be more

23 timely and appropriate to have them dealt with as the

24 evidence is raised? When the evidence is raised, the

25 Trial Chamber would rule on its admissibility, if

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1 requested.

2 MR. HAYNES: Yes, but it's the special nature

3 of these proceedings. You will have seen, in a

4 skeleton argument that I have filed with the Trial

5 Chamber, that it is one of my primary contentions that

6 the only parties to contempt proceedings are the Court

7 and the contemner, but of course I accept that within

8 the provisions of Rule 77, the Tribunal is entitled to

9 set a procedure by which it hears contempt

10 proceedings.

11 The Trial Chamber, in relation to these

12 proceedings, has elected to set a procedure in which it

13 invites the Prosecutor to call witnesses. Whilst I'm

14 perfectly prepared to jump up and down during the

15 course of Mr. Agnes' evidence and object to questions

16 asked by the Prosecutor, I thought it would be more

17 expedient if I put everybody on notice of the fact,

18 prior to the hearing or the calling of Mr. Agnes by the

19 Prosecutor, that there will be objection taken to the

20 scope of the evidence he is permitted to give.

21 If Your Honours would prefer me to make

22 objection on the hoof, as it were, as each question is

23 asked, then I am prepared to do that. But my primary

24 contention is that this Court is involved -- this Trial

25 Chamber is involved in specific allegations of

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1 contempt, and the evidence that it receives should be

2 limited to those specific allegations.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

4 Mr. Ryneveld or Ms. Paterson.

5 MS. PATERSON: Your Honour, I will respond to

6 this, as I will be the one putting the questions to

7 Mr. Agnes.

8 I would say that the Prosecution basically

9 has no objection to the issues raised by Mr. Haynes.

10 It was our intention all along to limit the questioning

11 of Mr. Agnes strictly to the matters that are pertinent

12 to this hearing.

13 Mr. Agnes himself feels strongly that he is

14 here to give testimony about his interaction with

15 Mr. Avramovic and Mr. Simic, and he intends to limit

16 it, as much as possible, to those issues.

17 In certain situations, simply to put things

18 in context, some brief references will have to be made

19 to some events that happened in 1992, but he does not

20 intend to go into any great detail and does not intend

21 to raise any issues that would in any way implicate the

22 other accused in this case, in this proceeding.

23 So I don't anticipate there will really be

24 any significant problems. We had already planned to

25 approach this in a way Mr. Haynes suggested.

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1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Any submissions

2 from any of the other concerned parties?

3 The Trial Chamber's ruling on this matter is

4 that questions of admissibility in relation to Witness

5 Agnes' evidence will be taken in relation to specific

6 aspects of his evidence as it is given.

7 I want now to turn to a number of other

8 matters that have to be dealt with before we proceed

9 further.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's just one matter that

12 I wish to raise, and it is in respect of the filing

13 relating to access to the Registry files.

14 We have seen the response from the

15 Prosecutor, and the Chamber's ruling would be,

16 Mr. Ryneveld, that in order for us to provide a

17 definitive ruling on this matter, we would need the

18 Prosecutor to identify with greater specificity two

19 things: First, the purpose to be served by access to

20 the files; secondly, the time frame that is involved.

21 The time frame that is now suggested, in the Trial

22 Chamber's view, is too wide, and we would want you to

23 do that as quickly as possible so that we can determine

24 this matter.

25 We will now proceed to have the allegations

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1 read.

2 Madam Registrar?

3 THE REGISTRAR:

4 (1) Milan Simic and Branislav Avramovic are

5 called before the Trial Chamber to

6 respond to the allegations.

7 (i) with regard to Milan Simic, being an

8 accused person, that

9 (A) between July and September 1998, he

10 knowingly and wilfully interfered with

11 the International Tribunal's

12 administration of justice, by

13 (a) making threats by telephone to a

14 potential witness described in the

15 Request as Mr. "Agnes," and

16 (b) being in a black motor vehicle

17 driven to the house of Mr. "Agnes"

18 between 2 and 3 a.m., and on one

19 occasion firing a shot in the air.

20 Particulars of paragraph (a):

21 Milan Simic is alleged to have committed

22 these acts individually or by acting in

23 concert with other persons or by aiding and

24 abetting in their commission. The threats

25 were made at different times, to the effect

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1 that Mr. "Agnes" had to testify in favour of

2 an unidentified defendant in the Bosanski

3 Samac case, and making statements to

4 Mr. "Agnes" to the effect that Mr. "Agnes"

5 had nobody else but [name deleted] and if he

6 had ever thought how would he feel if

7 something happened to them.

8 Particulars of paragraph (b):

9 Milan Simic is alleged to have committed

10 these acts individually or by acting in

11 concert with other persons or by aiding and

12 abetting in their commission.

13 (B) between January and May 1999, he offered

14 a bribe to and interfered with a potential

15 witness described in the Request as

16 Mr. "Agnes," with the intention that

17 Mr. "Agnes" should give false evidence in

18 favour of himself, telling Mr. "Agnes" that

19 Mr. "Agnes" would be given money by him or by

20 another person on his behalf for his needs,

21 and an apartment and employment after he had

22 given evidence in the trial.

23 Particulars:

24 Milan Simic is alleged to have committed

25 these acts individually or by acting in

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1 concert with other persons, including

2 Branislav Avramovic, or by aiding and

3 abetting in their commission.

4 (ii) with regard to Branislav Avramovic,

5 being counsel for Milan Simic, that

6 (A) between July and September 1998, he

7 knowingly and wilfully interfered with the

8 International Tribunal's administration of

9 justice, by -

10 (a) telling a potential witness described in

11 the Request as Mr. "Agnes" that -

12 (1) he should testify only in favour of

13 his client, Milan Simic, and

14 (2) Mr. "Agnes" had to say, falsely,

15 that Milan Simic was not present at

16 the school alleged by the

17 Prosecution to have been a

18 detention camp and in which

19 prisoners were beaten;

20 (b) falsely recording the version given by

21 Mr. "Agnes" so as to exculpate his client,

22 Milan Simic;

23 (c) coaching Mr. "Agnes" to tell that false

24 version, rehearsing it with a tape recorder;

25 (d) making threats by telephone to

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1 Mr. "Agnes", and

2 (e) being in a black motor vehicle driven to

3 the house of Mr. "Agnes" between 2 and

4 3 a.m., and on one occasion firing a shot in

5 the air.

6 Particulars of paragraphs (a), (b) and (c):

7 Branislav Avramovic is alleged to have

8 committed these acts individually or by

9 acting in concert with other persons,

10 including another man known only as the

11 lawyer from Doboj, or by aiding and abetting

12 in their commission.

13 Particulars of paragraphs (d) and (e):

14 Branislav Avramovic is alleged to have

15 committed these acts individually or by

16 acting in concert with other persons or by

17 aiding and abetting in their commission. The

18 threats were made at different times, to the

19 effect that Mr. "Agnes" had to testify in

20 favour of an unidentified defendant in the

21 Bosanski Samac case, and making statements to

22 Mr. "Agnes" to the effect that Mr. "Agnes"

23 had nobody else but [name deleted] and if he

24 had ever thought how would he feel if

25 something happened to them.

Page 23

1 (B) between January and May 1999, he offered

2 a bribe to and interfered with a potential

3 witness described in the Request as

4 Mr. "Agnes," with the intention that

5 Mr. "Agnes" should give false evidence in

6 favour of his client, Milan Simic, by

7 (a) telling Mr. "Agnes" in January that -

8 (1) he would be rehearsed further in

9 the false version throughout the

10 month of May, five days a week; and

11 (2) he would be given money for his

12 needs by Milan Simic, and an

13 apartment after he had given

14 evidence in the trial;

15 (b) telling Mr. "Agnes" in February that he was

16 to say, falsely, that Milan Simic was not at

17 the school alleged by the Prosecution to have

18 been a detention camp and in which prisoners

19 were beaten;

20 (c) showing Mr. "Agnes" in March a list with

21 about 160 names on it, and telling him that

22 the rehearsal (in May) would include looking

23 through the list and falsely marking off the

24 names of those who had been at the school;

25 (d) telling Mr. "Agnes" in April that he

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1 would be given employment after he had given

2 evidence in the trial; and

3 (e) telling Mr. "Agnes" in May that he would

4 see the next day about the money to be paid

5 to Mr. "Agnes".

6 Particulars of paragraphs (a) and (d):

7 Branislav Avramovic is alleged to have

8 committed these acts individually or by

9 acting in concert with other persons,

10 including Milan Simic and another man whose

11 identity is unknown, or by aiding and

12 abetting in their commission.

13 Particulars of paragraphs (b), (c) and (e):

14 Branislav Avramovic is alleged to have

15 committed these acts individually.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Branislav Avramovic, do

17 you accept the allegations made against you?

18 MR. AVRAMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

19 I do not accept any of the allegations presented in

20 this Trial Chamber's order.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Simic.

22 THE ACCUSED SIMIC: [Interpretation] I do not

23 accept any of the allegations.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will now proceed with the

25 first witness. That will be a closed session and the

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1 arrangements will have been made.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will now proceed with the

4 first witness. That will be in closed session and the

5 arrangements will have to be made. I understand that

6 some 10 or 15 minutes will be needed for the

7 arrangements. We will take an adjournment for ten

8 minutes.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

11 [Closed session]

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23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

24 12.40 p.m., to be reconvened on

25 Thursday, the 30th day of September,

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