1 Wednesday, 1
2 [Rule 77 Hearing]
3 [Open session]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will you call the case,
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your
9 Honours. Case number IT-95-9-R77.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, your
12 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much, Your Honour
13 WITNESS: BRANISLAV AVRAMOVIC [Resumed]
14 Examined by Mr. Haynes:
15 Q. Mr. Avramovic, yesterday afternoon we had
16 just moved on to the stage where you told us you were
17 telling us about collecting witness statements in
18 preparation of your defence for these proceedings. Did
19 you take a witness statement from Jasna Marosevic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was she, prior to making that witness
22 statement, shown any of the witness statements shown by
23 Witness Agnes?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Was she told the details of the allegations
1 made against you and/or Mr. Simic?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Mr. Drago Vukovic, did you take a witness
4 statement from him?
5 A. Yes, but he wrote his own statement and after
6 that it was typed out.
7 Q. Was he shown any of the witness statements
8 made by Witness Agnes prior to making his witness
9 statement or indeed at any other time?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was he told the details of the allegations
12 made against you and/or Mr. Simic?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you take the witness statement of
15 Mr. Goran Neskovic?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was he either shown witness statements or
18 told of the details of the allegations made by Agnes?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And lastly, can you deal with the same issues
21 in relation to the witness Spasoje Pisarevic?
22 A. Yes. Also nothing was said to him.
23 Q. Now, I think in addition to taking witness
24 statements, you have collected a number of documents
25 from various public authorities; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In corresponding with those public
3 authorities, did you disclose Witness Agnes's real name
4 or any of the details of the allegations he made?
5 A. No. I behaved fully in compliance with the
6 ruling of the Trial Chamber.
7 Q. Now, we have seen, on a number of occasions
8 in the course of this case, a blue bag. Can you tell
9 us how it -- how you came first to know about it?
10 A. I learnt about the existence of the bag in
11 September this year or to be more precise, on the 16th
12 or the 17th, because I was away in Bosanski Samac for
13 two or three days, and I learnt about it from Ms. Jasna
15 Q. When and where did she first bring it to
17 A. She brought the bag to the office of my
18 colleague Spasoje Pisarevic and the investigator in the
19 Defence team for Milan Simic.
20 Q. Who was present when she brought the bag to
21 that office?
22 A. I was there, Ms. Marosevic, and my colleague
23 Tatjana Cmeric.
24 Q. Can you describe for us what took place in
25 that office at the handover of the bag?
1 A. As the bag had been brought to the office in
2 the presence of Jasna Marosevic and Ms. Cmeric, a list
3 was made of the things it contained, and those things
4 were examined, during which Ms. Marosevic took out each
5 object, described it, and this was entered into the
6 record or the document that we have in our files. At
7 the end, Ms. Marosevic or, rather, that list was read
8 out to her and she signed it.
9 Q. Now, I want to deal firstly with the bag. I
10 wonder if you could have a look at this. Is this the
11 bag that was produced to you by Ms. Marosevic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What happened to the items taken from the bag
14 after they had been described by Ms. Marosevic?
15 A. Those things were placed in the bag by
16 Ms. Marosevic, as far as I can recollect, in the same
17 order in which they were shown.
18 Q. And what did you do with the bag after it was
19 handed to you by Ms. Marosevic?
20 A. After that, with the bag and the contents
21 that had been registered in the report, I took the bag
22 to my office, considering it to be evidence and
23 intending to bring it to this court.
24 Q. Did you at any time add to the contents of
25 that bag?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you at any time alter or interfere with
3 any document in that bag?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you, in fact, bring the bag to The Hague?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When?
8 A. A day or two prior to the beginning of the
9 hearing scheduled for the 29th of September.
10 Q. Now, the list compiled and signed by Jasna
11 Marosevic, or at last signed by Jasna Marosevic, did
12 you bring that to The Hague?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When did you first bring it?
15 A. The same time as the bag. When I arrived in
16 The Hague, together with the other documents that I had
17 in my possession.
18 Q. Did you show the list and the bag to anybody
19 when you got to The Hague?
20 A. The bag and the list I showed to my Defence
21 counsel, Mr. Haynes.
22 Q. Since then, or since the commencement of this
23 hearing, where has the bag been stored?
24 A. The bag was brought to the Tribunal, and it
25 was in the Tribunal, as far as I can remember, from
1 that moment, but we took it to our room during the
2 adjournment, but the contents were not in any way
3 interfered with in the meantime.
4 Q. When you say "our room", what do you mean?
5 A. I'm referring to our hotel room.
6 MR. HAYNES: Now, I do move that bag formally
7 into evidence now, the chain of custody having been
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Ryneveld.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect, I'm not -- we
11 take the position that the bag has not been -- the
12 chain of custody has not been properly -- the
13 foundation for that has not been properly laid, and we
14 would oppose its being moved into evidence at this
16 JUDGE HUNT: Where is the break in the chain,
17 if you could just point that out to me?
18 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect, it is our view
19 that Ms. Marosevic did not have continual custody of
20 the bag at all times. She said it was in her closet,
21 but we've established that there is ample opportunity
22 for persons to have access and control to the bag. We
23 would submit it's simply not appropriate at this point,
24 on the chain of custody, to have it admitted as my
25 friend now seeks to do.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Does that not go to the weight
2 and not to the admissibility of it? What you have said
3 does go to the weight, clearly.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Does it go to the admissibility
6 of it?
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps not, in that sense.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then is it not
10 MR. RYNEVELD: On reflection, yes.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Have it admitted.
12 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked
14 MR. HAYNES:
15 Q. Just before we leave the topic of the
16 preparation of your own case, when you corresponded
17 with companies and public authorities, seeking evidence
18 from them, without being able to refer to Mr. Agnes by
19 his real name, how was it that you phrased your letters
20 to them?
21 A. I phrased my letters, in the case of certain
22 correspondence which was not relevant for the
23 proceedings, using very general wording, saying that I
24 needed a certificate. For instance, if Milan Simic's
25 firm existed in a certain building, I needed proof of
1 that. So when taking that kind of a document which is
2 in the public domain, there was no need to give any
3 reasons because I am a lawyer and it is in my legal
4 capacity to make such a request.
5 Q. Did you place a time frame on the information
6 you sought in most cases?
7 A. Do you mean addressing the authorities, the
8 institutions from which I was seeking information? I'm
9 not sure I understood you quite.
10 Q. Yes. Did you seek information from them on
11 the basis that you wanted to know, between two certain
12 dates, whether an event had or had not happened?
13 A. Yes. In the case of certain documents which
14 were relevant for a particular time period, my request
15 mentioned that time period.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, lastly I just want to ask
17 you these few questions.
18 Have you ever driven in the middle of the
19 night to the village of Martinci?
20 A. In the course of the night, no, except that
21 once I had my return trip in the evening on the 28th.
22 But I was driving towards Belgrade, as far as I can
23 recollect. That was the return journey.
24 Q. Have you ever hung around outside Mr. Agnes'
25 house in the middle of the night --
1 A. No.
2 Q. -- or fired shots in the air outside his
4 A. No. Why would I?
5 Q. Have you ever asked anybody to do that on
6 your behalf?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Have you ever made phone calls to Mr. Agnes'
9 house in the middle of the night of a threatening or a
10 mysterious nature?
11 A. No, never. There was never any such need. I
12 didn't do that in the daytime. Why would I do such a
13 thing at night?
14 Q. Did you ever have the telephone number of
15 that house?
16 A. Yes, I had the number of the mobile telephone
17 of his relative. That is what I was told, that it was
18 his relative's. And I was given that telephone number
19 from Mr. Vukovic, as I have said, because he had
20 received that number.
21 Q. Did you ever put pressure on Mr. Agnes to say
22 one thing or the other about what happened in 1992?
23 A. No. There is absolutely no reason why I
24 would do that.
25 Q. Did you ever offer him the sum of 10.000
1 Deutschmarks and a flat and a job if he was prepared to
2 give evidence?
3 A. No, never. There was absolutely no reason or
4 justification, nor did anyone ask me to do such a
6 MR. HAYNES: Thank you.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
10 Q. Now, let me see if I understand you
11 correctly, Mr. Avramovic. You've told this Court that
12 when you took a statement from Jasna, you did not
13 explain to her at all what Mr. Agnes had alleged
14 against you or Mr. Simic; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And when you asked her to give a statement,
17 what did you ask her to do?
18 A. I told her that it was necessary for her, if
19 she was willing, to tell me everything she knew about
20 the contacts she had had with Mr. Agnes.
21 Q. So as far as you're concerned, she did not
22 know anything about these allegations at any stage
23 prior to coming to court today; is that correct? Or
24 coming to court yesterday, sorry.
25 A. Absolutely not, and it was -- it suited me
1 that she shouldn't know, regardless of the ruling of
2 the Trial Chamber. It was extremely important for me
3 to be able to take such statements, not only this one
4 but others as well, without saying what was involved so
5 that I would learn everything about contacts with that
7 Q. Mr. Avramovic, then why is it that Jasna
8 brought the blue bag to your attention at
9 Mr. Pisarevic's office? What possible use would that
10 be to you?
11 A. During my visit in September in 1999 and
12 talking to Ms. Marosevic, an informal conversation, she
13 mentioned it to me. Until then, she had never
14 mentioned it because I hadn't asked her about it, nor
15 did I know about its existence. I just asked her about
16 the contacts she had had with Mr. Agnes, and she told
17 me about them. And then in September when I came to
18 Samac on one of my visits and when I was preparing to
19 come to The Hague, she told me that she had this bag.
20 Naturally, my reaction was to ask her to bring me that
21 bag and to ask her whether she was ready to accept us
22 making a list of the contents if that was his bag. She
23 agreed. She brought the bag to the office. In my
24 presence and my assistant, as I have said, we carried
25 out the listing of the items.
1 Q. What possible reason would there be for you
2 to discuss Mr. Agnes with Jasna after May of this
4 A. I have already told you a moment ago. The
5 first reason was to take the first statement for the
6 needs of the Defence.
7 The second reason was that in July, again
8 during my visit to Samac, she told me that she didn't
9 feel safe, that there were threats, that she was
10 receiving anonymous phone calls, and a statement was
11 made about that, which was then filed with this Trial
13 And finally, as you yourself mentioned, in
14 September, again during my visit, in an entirely
15 informal conversation which had nothing to do with the
16 case, she told me about the existence of this bag,
17 because she knew I had taken two statements from her,
18 but not knowing what the relevance of it was, I
20 Q. So the offer of the fact that she had
21 Mr. Agnes's blue bag in her cupboard, as you say, was
22 purely coincidence; is that correct?
23 A. Absolutely so. I am a witness of that.
24 Q. Just for the sake of interest, what authority
25 did you have to go through Mr. Agnes's blue bag?
1 A. My authority emanated from the fact that I
2 have been accused in this Tribunal of certain acts, and
3 I was under the obligation to prepare my defence and
4 produce all relevant evidence to my Defence counsel. I
5 considered this to be a relevant piece of evidence and
6 that is why I took it. That is something that
7 Ms. Jasna Marosevic certainly could not have been aware
9 Q. So your evidence, as I understand it, is that
10 Jasna brought this bag to the office of Mr. Pisarevic,
11 where you happened to be, but you, of course, have no
12 idea where it came from, just what she told you; is
13 that correct?
14 A. Certainly. I learnt about it on that day.
15 Q. That's not the question. The question is:
16 You have no idea where it came from other than what
17 Jasna told you?
18 A. She brought it from her house, because I was
19 present when she went off to her apartment to fetch the
20 bag, and we went together to Pisarevic's office.
21 Q. Sorry. I understood that you told us that
22 she brought the bag to the office where you were, but
23 now I understand that you accompanied her to her house
24 and you removed it from the closet. Is that it?
25 A. No. No. That is a misinterpretation of what
1 I said. From the Lotos restaurant where I was sitting
2 with her, after she had told me that she had had this
3 bag, with my car and with my colleague we went to her
4 house. She climbed up to her apartment. She came back
5 to the car, and together we drove to the office. That
6 is how it was. I didn't go with her into the
7 apartment. I just waited for her. As the appropriate
8 place for doing such a thing was an office, we went to
9 the office, and she physically brought the bag to the
10 office. But the distance is perhaps 200 or 300 metres,
11 and it is on the way between the restaurant and the
13 Q. My original question to you, sir, perhaps you
14 didn't understand my question, is: Apart from Jasna
15 telling you that she got it from her house, you have no
16 idea how it got to her house; is that right?
17 A. She told me that Mr. Agnes had left it
19 Q. During the months of May to September, did
20 Jasna ever try to make contact with you about the
21 whereabouts of Mr. Agnes?
22 A. I don't quite understand your question.
23 Could you be kind enough to repeat it, please?
24 Q. Well, sir, as I understand your evidence, you
25 had sort of informal discussions with Jasna throughout
1 those months, did you not?
2 A. I did.
3 Q. When you went to Bosanski Samac, I take it
4 you would visit in the Lotos Cafe and you would meet
5 with Jasna?
6 A. No. I didn't go to see her, as is known in
7 the course of the preparations for the Defence. I had
8 other tasks I had to carry out in the territory of
9 Bosanski Samac. And when I was in Bosanski Samac on
10 one or two occasions, I did drop in to see her or I met
11 her in the town itself. It is a very small town, and
12 one can hardly avoid coming across acquaintances.
13 Sometimes we met by chance, sometimes we met in the
14 cafe where she was working.
15 Q. My questions aren't complicated, I hope,
16 sir. All I really need to hear from you is whether or
17 not you met with her from time to time.
18 A. Certainly.
19 Q. During any of the those times when you met
20 with her, either formally or informally, by chance or
21 by design, did she ever ask you as to the whereabouts
22 of Mr. Agnes or whether you had heard from him?
23 A. No. During the first statement, I told her
24 to tell me everything she knew about Mr. Agnes, whereas
25 I was not in a position to convey to her any
1 information about Mr. Agnes.
2 Q. My question was: Did she make an inquiry?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And this is despite the fact that he had
5 stayed with her for a number of times, according to her
6 evidence, and had left this blue bag with her; is that
8 A. Mr. Ryneveld, you asked me whether from May
9 onwards -- we are talking about the period when
10 Mr. Agnes, as is known, was not in Samac, he was not
11 there -- whether I, in contact with Jasna Marosevic,
12 had spoken to her about the whereabouts of Mr. Agnes
13 and whether she had asked me about it. My answer is:
14 From the 7th or, rather, the 9th of June onwards until
15 today, in fact, I have not spoken to her about that
16 matter, nor did I give her any information along those
17 lines. That is my answer.
18 Q. Fine, Mr. Avramovic. I'll move on. Now, as
19 I understand your evidence, you admit that you went to
20 Mr. Agnes's uncle's house at Sremska Mitrovica on at
21 least a couple of occasions, did you not?
22 A. That's correct. I went to the house of the
23 relations of Mr. Agnes on the 28th of September and
24 later on in November when I went with Mr. Agnes to the
25 Mimoza Motel.
1 Q. Is it fair to say that on those visits that
2 you made to the house that sometimes you were
3 accompanied by other people and sometimes you went
5 A. To the first meeting that I had on the
6 28th of September, I was accompanied by Mr. Neskovic;
7 and the following time, when I went together with him
8 to the Mimoza Motel, I went alone in my own car.
9 Q. And when you met him with Mr. Vukovic, where
10 was that?
11 A. That was in Sremska Mitrovica, in a
12 restaurant or cafe called Bingo, opposite the law
13 courts, in the sports hall.
14 Q. Your evidence is you did not go to his house
15 on that occasion?
16 A. No. No. On that occasion, we did not go to
17 his house. I didn't even know at the time where he
18 lived, so that it was only then that I learnt of the
19 village, the address, and other facts related to his
20 place of temporary residence.
21 Q. Mr. Avramovic, what kind of car do you
22 drive? Would it happen to be an Opel Ascona?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What colour is that?
25 A. A metallic grey colour.
1 Q. And does it have Belgrade plates?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Now, I'm going to deal next, if I may, with
4 what we can refer to as the lengthy meeting with
5 Mr. Agnes, the one you described where you went to his
6 house and you took notes of that meeting. You know the
7 one I'm talking about?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That would be your second meeting with
10 Mr. Agnes; is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And just so that we've got the time frame
13 correct, this is towards the end of September, the 28th
14 of December [sic] or early October, somewhere in that
16 A. That's correct. It was September, the 29th
17 of September.
18 Q. And you admit that you took a lot of notes on
19 that occasion; is that correct?
20 A. Well, I wouldn't say that I took a lot of
21 notes, but I did make some notes, yes, the chronology
22 of events, of facts, which he related to me on that
24 Q. But you say you did not use a tape-recorder
25 on that occasion?
1 A. During our conversation, that conversation,
2 no, I did not.
3 Q. Do you have a tape-recorder?
4 A. Well, I have an old tape-recorder/cassette
5 player in my office, and I don't think actually it
6 belongs to me personally. It was in the office, so
7 that --
8 Q. Do you ever use such a tape-recorder in the
9 course of your business and taking statements from time
10 to time?
11 A. Well, I don't use the cassette player for
12 taking statements, but I can use it and I used to use
13 it to convey some of the notes on conversations which I
14 gave to my assistant to put into the computer, to file
15 it, or to store it in some other medium. And I did
16 this too when I was a judge, for example. My verdicts,
17 my rulings when I worked in the ministry, I would
18 dictate them into a dictaphone and then hand them over
19 to my secretary to type out.
20 Q. Your evidence, though, is that you did not
21 use the tape-recorder on this occasion, even though
22 Mr. Agnes says that you did; is that correct?
23 A. I did not use a tape-recorder to talk to him
25 Q. Did you read back to him your notes?
1 A. No, I did not read him anything of what I had
2 jotted down. And I said yesterday that the talk
3 between him and myself on the occasion was rather
4 confusing because we were all hurrying to get back to
5 Belgrade, and also I was aware of the fact that he
6 could not supply me with any essential data which I was
7 basically interested in, and that was why I scheduled
8 the meeting for the 28th at his house.
9 Q. Mr. Avramovic, I appreciate the fact that you
10 wish to give as full an answer as possible, but my
11 question was really quite specific. I just wanted to
12 know whether or not you used the tape-recorder, as he
13 said you did. The answer, I take it, from all of that
14 is, "No."
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you try to get a statement from him? Did
17 you get him to sign a statement?
18 A. No. He did not ask ...
19 Q. Did you discuss with him that you would like
20 him to give evidence in The Hague about what he had
21 told you?
22 A. No, no.
23 Q. Did you bring your notebook with you to the
24 court proceedings today?
25 A. I have several notebooks in which I record my
1 notes on my conversations, and I think I do indeed have
2 a notebook but it is not my complete documentation
3 related to the preparation of the Defence case and the
4 conversation that I had.
5 Q. Well, Mr. Avramovic, it will probably be good
6 to know that I wasn't referring to all of your
7 notebooks about the preparation of the Defence case.
8 Quite clearly, what I'm interested in is the notebook
9 that you used to record the notes of your conversation
10 on the 28th or 29th of September with Mr. Agnes. Do
11 you have that notebook?
12 A. I do not have that notebook with me because
13 the data on the conversation with him I have not saved,
14 and I did not wish to save them.
15 Q. Do you not save notes of potential witnesses
16 that you are writing notes about? What's the purpose
17 of notes if you don't keep them?
18 A. The Defence is a process, an ongoing process,
19 and when you work on a Defence case, you collect and
20 gather information. The position of a Defence case is
21 far different from the Prosecution.
22 My method is a method of work with people,
23 which implies the gathering of information and having
24 talks and conversations with people. As you well know,
25 the territory of Bosanski Samac is a highly-sensitive
1 area with regard to the subject matter discussed here
2 at the Tribunal, and that fact alone demands that I
3 have a process of thought rather than taking statements
4 automatically, as I can only assume that the Prosecutor
5 does when he approaches victims or when victims come to
7 So the process of my work and the methodology
8 that I use has been conceived in such a way that I
9 gather information and have conversations and talks,
10 and what I consider to be essential I retain, what I do
11 not I get rid of, because if I were to save everything,
12 I would be buried with all the notebooks.
13 Now why do I do this? I assess the
14 information I'm given, I evaluate it, and in time, with
15 the passage of time, in the course of my work I'm able
16 to judge what I feel to be relevant and what I do not
17 feel to be relevant. And that is my general principle
18 and attitude, not only with relation to Mr. Agnes but
19 it is the way I work, and in this case as well.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Avramovic, apparently
21 you're speaking too fast for the interpreter. Try to
22 slow down.
23 A. I apologise. I'll try.
24 MR. RYNEVELD:
25 Q. So as I understand it, you don't have any
1 notes of this very vital conversation with Mr. Agnes.
2 Is that right?
3 A. Yes, but not only with him, not only for
4 Mr. Agnes. There are other people, and the notes
5 referring to those people I have not saved. Some of
6 them I still have with me, but I am thinking about
7 getting rid of them.
8 Q. And just so that I have it clear, you were in
9 the courtroom when Mr. Vukovic told us about a lengthy
10 discussion with Mr. Agnes on a Saturday afternoon. Do
11 you recall that?
12 A. Yes, I do recall it.
13 Q. And when he transferred the file to you, did
14 you have any notes of his conversation with Mr. Agnes
16 A. As far as I recall, I did not save any notes,
17 nor did I receive any pertaining to that conversation,
18 other than the fact that he informed me of the contents
19 of the conversation that he had.
20 Q. So it was clear from his evidence that
21 Mr. Agnes was considered an important-enough person for
22 the Defence to know about that he accompanied you to go
23 and talk to him and introduce you to him; isn't that
25 A. I would say the reverse and understand
1 Mr. Vukovic to have said the opposite.
2 Q. Well, did you or did you not go with
3 Mr. Vukovic at a time when you were introduced to
4 Mr. Agnes by Mr. Vukovic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you've told us, in some great detail in
7 chief, about Mr. Vukovic telling you about his
8 impressions of Mr. Agnes as a potential witness; isn't
9 that true?
10 A. That's right, before that meeting.
11 Q. So is it safe to say that he thought, at
12 least, that it was important for you to know as much as
13 you could about Mr. Agnes?
14 A. Actually, at that particular moment, as I was
15 talking over the case, at my own request he agreed that
16 I have an additional talk with Mr. Agnes because of the
17 need to ask him some things which he did not have the
18 possibility of asking him at the time, nor was he
19 interested in them, and that is the persecution. And I
20 mentioned that yesterday, and that is why that meeting
21 was scheduled, because we could contact that kind of
22 man for that purpose, as I did from October on.
23 Q. And all of this was done without the
24 assistance of any notes from Mr. Vukovic?
25 A. I said yesterday in the course of my
1 testimony, and I'm going to repeat it here today, that
2 Mr. Vukovic's knowledge about the events talked to him
3 about by Mr. Agnes was so modest that it would not have
4 even taken up half a piece of paper, so I see no reason
5 why I should exchange any documentation on that subject
6 matter with him.
7 Q. Anyway, the long and short of it, you have no
8 notes and you don't have Mr. Vukovic's notes; correct?
9 A. I don't.
10 Q. Thank you. Did Mr. Neskovic give you his
12 A. Mr. Neskovic, as far as I remember, several
13 days prior to our joint visit to the village of
14 Martinci, got from me a -- in that same notebook, a
15 note of mine that I jotted down pertaining to a talk I
16 had on the 22nd of September in Sremska Mitrovica. And
17 he, as far as I recall, used that same notebook to
18 introduce certain corrections in the sense of possible
19 questions to be raised in the discussion with
20 Mr. Agnes, and I told him that I planned to hold that
21 talk. So that was also written down in my notebook.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, could I just
23 have something clarified from the witness? He did, in
24 fact, take notes of his conversation with Mr. Agnes.
25 He doesn't have any notes now, the reason being that he
1 got rid of the notes; is that so?
2 MR. RYNEVELD: That's what I was hoping to
3 find out. I'm not sure whether I did. I'm still
4 working on it.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you answer that?
6 A. Quite so. Quite so, Your Honour. It was
7 precisely like that, and as I said at the beginning.
8 And this isn't -- wasn't only the case with Mr. Agnes.
9 MR. RYNEVELD:
10 Q. We understand that. Now, just so that I'm
11 clear, you had them and you got rid of them. That's
13 A. Absolutely so. In October or perhaps
14 somewhat later.
15 Q. Okay. Didn't Mr. Agnes, during the course of
16 that discussion you had with him, give you the names of
17 other potential witnesses that he may be able to
18 contact for you, according to your evidence?
19 A. Yes. It was a question of three witnesses,
20 and I mentioned their names yesterday.
21 Q. Would you not have taken down their names in
22 those notes?
23 A. If I do not have an address or an
24 identification or any more precise detail on
25 individuals of that kind, then I would have no reason
1 to retain them in the notebook. And you yourself
2 say -- you talk about him as a witness, but for me he
3 was just an informer. So this was of negligible
4 importance to me. It was -- he was saying that he knew
5 those individuals.
6 Q. And you wrote the names down. Is that fair
7 to say?
8 A. You can say that on that page where I jotted
9 down the gist of our conversation, that I made a note
10 of the names. Possibly I made a note of it on the
11 lists that I looked through, whether ticking the names
12 off of the people that he remembered, that he knew;
13 although, I said yesterday that those individuals, for
14 the most part, he knew by their nicknames, and it was
15 difficult for him to reconstruct lists and help me to
16 tell me exactly which individuals were in the primary
17 school building. So I just ticked off each name as I
18 came to it, the names that he sort of seemed to
19 remember, that he remembered -- that perhaps he could
20 get in touch with. But apart from Mirsad Sahanic, he
21 did not have any details about anybody else.
22 Q. And you already knew about Mr. Sahanic?
23 A. I learnt about Mr. Sahanic from him. I
24 personally think -- I don't remember exactly, but I do
25 believe that Mr. Vukovic knew about that too. I can't
1 be certain. But at all events, I learnt this fact, and
2 I knew about it on the 28th of September when I
3 concluded my conversation with him.
4 Q. I'm going to move on, Mr. Avramovic. We've
5 established you didn't bring a notebook with you
6 because you no longer have it. All right. How about
7 telephone bills?
8 A. No, no. I didn't say that. I didn't say
9 that. I did not say that the way you have just stated
10 it. I apologise, but I didn't put it that way.
11 Q. Well, that's what I was trying to establish,
12 Mr. Avramovic. Please correct me. Let's do it
13 one-word answers to simple questions. Do you have the
15 A. I have the notebook. I have several
17 Q. Do you have the relevant notebook containing
18 the entries of your discussion with Mr. Agnes?
19 A. I do not have a notebook of that kind. I do
20 not have the pages of it, the pages pertaining the
21 conversation I had with him, and I explained this a
22 moment ago. All irrelevant data I rip out of my
23 notebook and throw them away. So they are notebooks
24 with metal bindings, and I use them for my fieldwork.
25 That's what it is.
1 Q. All right. Let me rephrase the question,
2 because we seem to be equivocating about words. You
3 have the notebook which once contained pages upon which
4 you recorded your discussions. You have since ripped
5 out those pages but still have the balance of the
6 notebook; is that correct?
7 A. That's right. But not only about Mr. Agnes,
8 and that is the essential point; not only about
9 Mr. Agnes.
10 Q. It's not a point, sir. My point is you
11 ripped those pages out and, therefore, you cannot bring
12 them to court with you today; is that correct?
13 A. Absolutely so. Absolutely, yes.
14 Q. Phone bills. Do you get phone bills for the
15 work that you do on your defence cases?
16 A. If I understand you correctly, let me say
17 that I get telephone bills to pay from the post office,
18 which sends them in to me in Belgrade. Is that what
19 you mean? In that sense, yes, I do receive phone
20 bills, of course.
21 Q. And please help me here. Do your phone bills
22 record your long-distance charges when you call from
23 Belgrade to, say, people in Bosanski Samac or people in
24 Sremska Mitrovica or anywhere else?
25 A. Let me answer that question but let me just
1 try to think for one moment. I do apologise. I do
2 understand you, but give me a moment to think about
4 Two telephone lines in the office in which I
5 work are on the old exchange and cannot give you
6 recorded information of that kind. The third telephone
7 line, which was installed several months ago, has an
8 up-to-date telephone exchange which allows you to
9 receive records and reports on the telephone
10 conversations you have had. If you have that in mind,
11 then I think that what I have just answered is precise
12 and detailed information.
13 Q. So do I understand correctly that prior to a
14 few months ago, the telephone network did not give you
15 printouts of your long distance phone calls; is that
17 A. That is correct. Allow me to repeat once
18 again, if necessary. There are technical possibilities
19 only for one telephone line, and that exists only as of
21 Q. Thank you. I got that. Did you bill for
22 your work on the Defence case?
23 A. Certainly.
24 Q. Would you have billed for your trip with
25 Mr. Neskovic, with Mr. Vukovic, for your meetings with
1 Mr. Agnes?
2 A. Regarding meetings held, in September, on the
3 22nd and the 28th of September, I think that from
4 roughly that period of time onwards I have not billed
5 for that period. In fact, I think that because those
6 trips were not carried out within the deadline set by
7 the Registry, I was unable to bill for them, but I will
8 be doing so.
9 In the case of these trips, as it is Sremska
10 Mitrovica that we are talking about, apart from bills
11 for fuel that I may have, I have no other bills that I
12 could submit to the Tribunal for reimbursement. But I
13 do not remember billing for this, though I'm not quite
15 Q. Mr. Avramovic, the time period that we're
16 talking about starts over a year ago; is that correct?
17 September of 1998. Is it your evidence that you have
18 not billed for your time either?
19 A. No. No. I haven't submitted bills for the
20 entire period of my engagement. If you have in mind
21 expenses, there are other things, other bills that I
22 compile on the basis my monthly activities. I'm
23 talking about bills for business trips. That I haven't
24 done, but I do have the necessary documents and I will
25 be doing it. I will be submitting them.
1 Q. That was not my question. Pardon me for not
2 being clear. Let me be explicit. Did you bill for the
3 time incurred in all of your dealings with Mr. Agnes?
4 In other words, the hour and a half to two hours that
5 you spent at his uncle's house on the 28th or the 29th
6 of September, in the trip in the park with -- I think
7 it was Mr. Vukovic? All of the times you were spending
8 time with Mr. Agnes on this file, did you bill for
10 A. I did submit a bill for my monthly
11 activities, and I submitted an invoice as my
12 professional engagement. If that's what you have in
13 mind, I have done that. I express this in hours spent
14 on interviews.
15 Q. Would you have itemised with which witness
16 you would have spent the time? Is it a detailed bill
17 such as "hour and a half, Mr. Agnes," and then a
18 location and a date?
19 A. Yes. I had a methodology of work prescribed
20 by the Registry, and I marked my contacts with certain
21 codes, as is customary.
22 Q. All right. I'm going to move on to another
23 topic, Mr. Avramovic. I'm conscious of the time here.
24 You told us yesterday, I believe, that
25 Mr. Agnes told you that he could testify that Milan
1 Simic was not at the primary school; isn't that
2 correct, what you told us yesterday? It's a simple
4 A. Yes. A very simple question. He said that
5 he had some information about events in the school and
6 that he would be ready to talk about them.
7 Q. And you told us about what he told you, that
8 his evidence would be that he did not see Mr. Milan
9 Simic at the primary school. Is that right?
10 A. Yes. In effect, yes.
11 Q. If I understood you correctly, you said that
12 that testimony was not significant, in your view.
13 A. Yes. And I explained why yesterday, and I
14 can repeat and give those reasons again.
15 Q. No. Are you telling this Chamber that you
16 felt, as the Defence counsel, that someone being able
17 to say that he didn't see Milan Simic harm anyone at
18 the primary school, in light of the charges that are
19 against him, would not be of interest to the Defence?
20 A. I apologise, but you have interpreted this in
21 your own words, and let me put it in my words. If
22 somebody says that he hadn't seen Milan Simic ever in
23 the elementary school, and Milan Simic himself says
24 that he was in the elementary school, then such a
25 testimony would be quite insignificant. In the context
1 of other facts which I referred to yesterday, I assume
2 that you yourself would treat such a person merely as a
3 source of information and nothing more, not as a
4 witness. Nor did he sign any kind of statement about
5 it, nor did I ask him to do that.
6 Q. Mr. Avramovic, you were aware that Mr. Agnes
7 had been detained with the very people against whom it
8 is alleged that these crimes were committed in the
9 indictment; isn't that true? You knew that and
10 accepted that, did you not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Well, if he said, since he was detained with
13 these very people, that he never saw Milan Simic at the
14 elementary school in relation to these people, wouldn't
15 that be of interest to the Defence?
16 A. No, not bearing in mind the overall picture
17 about the events that I described yesterday; that is,
18 my definite position as Defence counsel for Milan
20 Q. Okay, you're the Defence counsel, sir.
21 Now, moving on to Mirsad Sahanic, you say
22 that the purpose for continuing contact with Mr. Agnes
23 was because he said he could put you in touch with
24 other witnesses; is that right? That's the only reason
25 you gave us for continued contact?
1 A. I wouldn't call it continued contact,
2 continuous contact, but that was the reason, yes.
3 Q. Shall we say "repeated contact"?
4 A. I said yesterday two telephone calls in that
6 Q. Now, you've already told us that you had by
7 then decided that you would not call him as a witness;
8 is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And therefore his only purpose would be to
11 locate these other witnesses for you?
12 A. Exactly.
13 Q. Did I understand you correctly yesterday that
14 when you were at the meeting at his uncle's house and
15 he told you the names of a number of these other
16 witnesses and that he may be able to locate them for
17 you, that you told him that you would leave it up to
18 him to decide whether he wanted to do that or not?
19 A. Certainly.
20 Q. Here we have a witness who is offering you up
21 these names on a silver platter, and you're saying to
22 him, "You don't have to. It's up to you, if you
23 choose." Is that your evidence?
24 A. Absolutely so. I mustn't exert any pressure
25 even on a source.
1 Q. That's not pressure, sir. Wouldn't you jump
2 at the chance of getting him to; "Hey, by all means, by
3 all means"?
4 A. Why would I insist on it? It is up to his
5 free will to do it or not.
6 Q. Yes. So --
7 A. I hope we understand one another. It is up
8 to him to decide whether he wishes to get in touch with
9 somebody. I explained that yesterday, and I would like
10 to make that very clear, that he himself told me that
11 such contacts were an extremely delicate matter and
12 that he would try. He offered to do it. But he added
13 that it would be difficult to achieve. And why should
14 I then, knowing that, having been told that, insist on
15 something that he said himself was a sensitive matter
16 and which I know to be sensitive even if he hadn't told
18 Q. So do I take it, then, that not only did you
19 not exert any pressure on him to give you a statement,
20 but you also cautioned him that he needn't do what he
21 offered to do unless he really wanted to do it; is that
23 A. That is how I deal with everybody. That is
24 my approach.
25 Q. Now, I think I asked you this moments ago.
1 Mirsad Sahanic, you said you heard his name for the
2 first time from Mr. Agnes?
3 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, that was on
4 the 28th of September when we had that conversation.
5 Q. You're aware, are you not, sir, that Jasna
6 had already contacted Mirsad Sahanic, are you not?
7 A. No. At that point in time, no.
8 Q. Hadn't Jasna already given you his name and
9 address and phone number?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You now know that she was the one that got
12 the phone number in Tuzla?
13 A. Yes. I learned that later.
14 Q. In fact, as it turned out, Mr. Agnes didn't
15 know where Mirsad lived, did he?
16 A. He told me on the 28th, I remember that well,
17 that he thinks that he lives in Tuzla or, rather, that
18 his family is in Tuzla and that he is somewhere
19 abroad. I don't remember whether he said Germany or
20 some other country, but that he had been told something
21 to that effect. That I knew.
22 Q. You were in the courtroom when both Jasna and
23 Mr. Agnes told the Court that he got the phone number
24 from Jasna; he had no idea where he was?
25 MR. RYNEVELD: I see my friend on his feet.
1 MR. HAYNES: I've studied the transcripts
2 with some care, and the assertion that Mr. Agnes told
3 the Court that he got the phone number from Jasna is
4 misleading. I can draw my friend's attention to the
5 passages where Mr. Agnes deals with this particular
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm not sure if it's necessary
9 at this point, if my friend tells me the words are
10 somewhat different. I've paraphrased my understanding
11 of the evidence, but I'm going to move on.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
13 MR. RYNEVELD:
14 Q. Sir, did you at any time encourage Jasna to
15 make contact with Mirsad?
16 A. No. Talking to Jasna in October, I learned
17 that Agnes knew Mirsad and that if he had promised to
18 get in touch with him, he could do so. More than that,
19 Jasna and me, we did not talk about that. At that
20 time, I did not get from Jasna any information about
21 her having a telephone number, or being in touch with
22 him, or anything else linked to Mirsad Sahanic.
23 Q. When did you find out that Jasna and
24 Mr. Agnes had Mirsad's phone number?
25 A. I didn't learn that throughout the period
1 while I was working on Mr. Milan Simic's Defence,
2 except that talking to Mr. Agnes at his request at the
3 end of the year, I learned that he had learned that
4 Mirsad was coming to Tuzla. Where he got the telephone
5 number from, whether he personally found out or someone
6 else, I didn't ask him and I wasn't interested in
8 Q. You were encouraging Mr. Agnes to contact
9 Mirsad, weren't you?
10 A. I wasn't encouraging him. He offered to do
11 so if I thought it necessary.
12 Q. Did you think it necessary?
13 A. Certainly it would have been useful, I felt,
14 to get in touch with anyone who had been detained in
15 the primary school, and therefore including Mirsad
16 Sahanic. If he were willing and if he were to be a
17 credible witness, certainly.
18 Q. You needed Mr. Agnes to contact Mirsad and
19 lure him into Bosnia, didn't you?
20 A. Yes. He was my source.
21 Q. And you're telling us that you were not aware
22 that Jasna was also trying to contact Mirsad and lure
23 him, through whatever ways she had of luring Mirsad,
24 back to Bosnia?
25 A. No, never, until these contempt hearings
2 Q. Sir, do you know whether calls from the
3 Republika Srpska to Germany are expensive?
4 A. I really couldn't give you a reliable answer
5 because the prices differ from those in Serbia, I'm
6 quite sure. I don't know how much they cost.
7 Q. Long-distance phone calls are generally quite
8 expensive, are they not, sir, in the area where you
10 A. Yes, certainly they are expensive. We must
11 agree on that. It depends, of course, how long they
13 Q. Was it clear, from your discussions with
14 Mr. Vukovic, that Jasna was doing everything she could
15 to assist in the Defence of Mr. Milan Simic's case?
16 A. That was never my impression, nor was that
17 what Mr. Vukovic conveyed to me, nor did I get that
18 impression from my few meetings with Ms. Marosevic, not
19 the kind of impression you have just described.
20 Q. Then why, sir, would you have contact with
21 Agnes through Jasna Marosevic?
22 A. The contact was established through Jasna
23 Marosevic for the benefit of my colleague Drago
24 Vukovic. That is an established fact. Later on, all
25 my contacts with Mr. Agnes were direct between the two
1 of us in the scope which I described yesterday. I do
2 not see why Jasna Marosevic would be somebody I would
3 need from then on as a person for contact, if I
4 understand you well.
5 Q. So you deny that she was a contact between
6 you and Mr. Agnes on many occasions?
7 A. We have to be very precise when talking about
8 these things. The contact I had with her in October
9 was a logical follow-up of my needs to talk to a person
10 who knew him personally, and she was such a person.
11 Drago Vukovic told me that, to talk to her about
12 certain things linked to the credibility of Mr. Agnes
13 and to collect information about that. From then on,
14 my contacts were direct, as I described them
15 yesterday. And never did I engage Ms. Jasna Marosevic
16 for that purpose, nor did I make any particular
17 requests of her.
18 To be quite frank, I saw her only a couple of
19 times throughout that period. Do not forget that I had
20 a great deal of work to do, and I didn't have time,
21 among the many contacts I had to make, for this
22 particular contact which I'm not going to say was not
23 interesting, but it was not overly significant. I had
24 other sources of information, and I still have other
1 Q. Well, sir, we know of at least a number of
2 occasions where Jasna was present during your dealings
3 with Mr. Agnes, one of which was in the Cafe Lotos that
4 she testified to a day or two ago, when she sat down
5 and had a drink with you and you moved off with Mr.
6 Agnes to another office. That was one occasion;
8 A. Yes. You're talking about April. About
9 April. Yes. Correct.
10 Q. And you had a meeting with Jasna over the
11 blue bag. You've told us about that today.
12 A. Yes, but that was not the context of the
13 contempt hearing. This is another case altogether.
14 Q. And you've heard Mr. Agnes tell the Court
15 about all the contacts that he had allegedly with you
16 and/or Mr. Simic in Jasna's presence. You heard him
17 tell the Court about those instances. You deny those?
18 A. Yes, indeed I heard it. I'm not only denying
19 it but I think the whole impression given is like fata
20 morgana. I really don't know where such an image came
22 JUDGE HUNT: What do you mean by that, sir?
23 What do you mean by that expression. I think it was
24 "fata morgana."
25 A. I apologise, Your Honour. As the Prosecutor
1 somehow prompted me to say that I had listened to the
2 testimony of Mr. Agnes, and everything I heard that
3 relates to our mutual contacts is so unreal and so full
4 of various numbers, dates, meetings, that it appears to
5 be a product of a fanciful imagination. And I
6 apologise for using this expression. Maybe it's not
7 the best.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, maybe on this
9 note we could take a break.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Absolutely.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before we take a break,
12 Judge Hunt.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Haynes, are you going to
14 tender the interview which Mr. Simic had with the
15 Prosecution that was referred to in the evidence
17 MR. HAYNES: I don't believe so, no.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, what do we do, we just
19 accept that that is stated there, do we?
20 MR. HAYNES: Well, it may well be there is
21 some means of accommodation.
22 JUDGE HUNT: I don't mean the whole but --
23 MR. HAYNES: No. No.
24 JUDGE HUNT: -- I think it may be important
25 the way it was said or the context in which it was
1 said, because my recollection was your client, your
2 current witness, said that Mr. Simic had stated to the
3 Prosecution that he had been at the elementary school
4 on one occasion.
5 MR. HAYNES: That's correct.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I think, if I may say so,
7 it might help us if we saw the context in which that
8 was said.
9 MR. HAYNES: Yes. It may well be that that's
10 not achievable in a practical form until tomorrow.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That's why we're raising
12 it now.
13 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, just to clarify,
15 do you have one more witness after Mr. Avramovic?
16 MR. HAYNES: Yes, there is one more witness.
17 Then I shall move documents into evidence that have
18 already been filed, but we've put them in a more
19 digestible and comprehensible form, and then we will
20 have to consider whether the evidence of Mr. Spasoje
21 Pisarevic is in an admissible form as an affidavit or,
22 rather, statement. I know there is an amendment to
23 that Rule, that I've just seen this morning, and that
24 should conclude the --
25 JUDGE HUNT: The amendment to the Rule,
1 unfortunately, does not come into operation until next
2 Monday, and the Prosecution has already taken the
3 somewhat technical view that we are bound by the Rules
4 of Procedure and Evidence as they presently stand.
5 MR. HAYNES: Well, it may well be, therefore,
6 that we have to consider briefly whether the evidence
7 of Mr. Spasoje Pisarevic is currently in the form of an
8 affidavit, because I think the crucial difference
9 between the two Rules is the addition of the phrase
10 "some form of statement." I don't have the Rule
11 currently before me.
12 JUDGE HUNT: The Rule is amended to take into
13 account what we were informed was the absence of any
14 affidavits or any procedure for taking affidavits in
15 the former Yugoslavia. The answer may be, of course,
16 if the Prosecution really wants to rely on such a
17 technicality, to withhold and tender it after next
19 MR. HAYNES: That's very helpful.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld?
21 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps I may have some
22 clarification. I'm not quite clear on Judge Hunt's
23 comment on the technical view that --
24 JUDGE HUNT: It was a document which was
25 filed yesterday in other proceedings in this trial, in
1 which we had suggested that we should hear an
2 application for provisional release upon the basis that
3 the Rule which has been amended -- we took that into
4 account but gave our decision after the Rule had been,
5 in fact, amended and come into operation.
6 There is a very solemn and long and rather
7 dreary document filed in which we are reminded solemnly
8 that we are bound by the Rules as they currently
9 stand. That's why I described it as a somewhat
10 technical point.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Just so that I was
12 clear. I was at a loss in terms of something that
13 perhaps I or my colleagues said during the course of
14 this aspect of the case.
15 JUDGE HUNT: No, but your colleagues have
16 signed the document. They'll explain it to you.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. But now I
18 understand that this is something -- thank you.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Happily, you're not involved
20 in those proceedings.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you very much. I was a
22 bit taken at a loss in terms of what I had done to --
23 thank you.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Not so much at a loss as we were
25 when the point was taken.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will take the adjournment
2 for 20 minutes.
3 --- Recess taken at 4 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 4.27 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
6 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. Prior to
7 proceeding with the cross-examination, if I may, may I
8 clarify the position that I would like to take as
9 senior trial attorney on this aspect of the case with
10 respect to my friend's submission as to the
11 introduction of the document from Mr. Pisarevic, I
12 believe it was, Spasoje Pisarevic.
13 I have absolutely no concern or problem with
14 that document being entered. As a matter of fact, I
15 believed, when I asked for the motion yesterday by way
16 after housekeeping motion, that all of the documents
17 that had been filed. It was my understanding that that
18 document, having already been filed, would be one of
19 the documents that would be moved into evidence. So
20 just so that I'm clear, I'm not taking a technical
21 approach to the introduction of that document. We're
22 quite content to have it moved in.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. I see you are in
24 your role as Minister of Justice. Please continue.
25 JUDGE HUNT: You are commended.
1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. If I
2 may now proceed.
3 Q. I'm going to shorten my cross-examination,
4 I'm sure you will be happy to know, but there are a
5 couple of areas I want to still touch upon. I will
6 also try and speak closer to the microphone. I
7 understand they're having difficulty hearing me.
8 Now, sir, you've told us that Mr. Agnes
9 offered you his assistance in finding witnesses for
10 Milan Simic. Isn't that correct? It was his offer?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Sir, why do you think he would do that? I
13 mean, you know that he was detained by the Serbs in
14 Bosanski Samac for a number of months, and you know
15 that it's alleged that Mr. Milan Simic was one of the
16 people who was there at the camp; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Why would Mr. Agnes possibly come forward to
19 offer to testify for someone linked to his captors? As
20 Milan Simic's lawyer, does that make sense to you?
21 A. His wish to tell the Defence team of Milan
22 Simic everything that he knew about the primary school
23 was not anything strange for me. I didn't at any
24 time -- regardless of the reasons that you have just
25 brought up, which can be put forward with a lot of
1 argument that an individual of that kind should not
2 talk to the Defence counsel for Milan Simic, and that
3 is what I came to understand when Mr. Vukovic conveyed
4 to me the conversation he had had, that he did so
5 voluntarily and wished to state what he stated to him
6 and subsequently to me, it did not appear to me to be
7 especially unusual, that is to say, that somebody who
8 had been in the primary school should tell the Defence
9 team something, of course, unless he was a Prosecution
11 As far as I was able to see from the list of
12 individuals, there were lots of people who were not
13 Prosecution witnesses, that is to say, people who had
14 been detained in the primary school building and who
15 would come forward to testify about the events that had
16 taken place in the primary school. This wasn't
17 strange -- didn't appear strange to me, particularly in
18 view of the fact that for a given length of time, he
19 had lived in the Republika Srpska. And I felt that
20 this was acceptable, it was acceptable for me to hear
21 him out.
22 Q. So you found nothing surprising about a
23 victim coming forward offering to assist one of the
24 people who were his captors; is that correct?
25 A. Let me be quite frank in answering your
1 question. There are many people who can be considered
2 victims who will, nonetheless, be witnesses testifying
3 here. At least I can only assume that there will be.
4 Q. But in terms of Mr. Agnes, what was in it for
5 him; a job, an apartment, money maybe?
6 A. No, absolutely not. It was a friendly
7 relationship coming from Ms. Marosevic, from a circle
8 of friends, from the people she herself knew
9 personally, and that's what Mr. Drago Vukovic told me.
10 And later on this really did turn out to be so.
11 Possibly the motives were related to Ms. Jasna
12 Marosevic, but I didn't delve into the motives more
13 deeply. But as I say, it wasn't a great surprise to me
14 that somebody did offer to come forward and tell the
15 Defence something about it.
16 Q. Before I move on to the next topic, I'm just
17 reminded, sir, that yesterday you said something about
18 you had checked with a number of people about
19 Mr. Agnes, including Prosecution witnesses, and I
20 remember I objected at that point in time about the
21 source of your information. Who were those Prosecution
22 witnesses that you referred to? Could we have their
24 A. Ah, that was completely incorrect. It was a
25 completely erroneous understanding on your part about
1 what I was talking about yesterday, what I said here
3 No, they were not my contacts at all with the
4 Prosecution witnesses. I said something quite
5 different, and I want you to understand that in very
6 precise terms and that it be recorded in the
7 transcript, that searching for the need to inform
8 myself on certain issues which were to have given me a
9 full picture and allow me to decide upon the status of
10 Mr. Agnes, I had a certain number of talks in the town
11 of Samac very shortly afterwards. These were not
12 Prosecution witnesses. Quite the contrary. They were
13 citizens who live in Samac to this day and who know
14 Mr. Agnes, and it is from those sources that I received
15 additional information. And one of these pieces of
16 information was the piece I brought up here yesterday,
17 and that is that there was knowledge to the fact that
18 Mr. Agnes, during his detention period, was in conflict
19 with other detainees. And he himself told me that the
20 local -- if I can use that word -- detainees from Samac
21 were not very nice to people who had come in from
22 elsewhere, from other territories or from other towns,
23 and it was in that sense that it seems he had a
24 conflict with them. And according to the information
25 that I received, it boiled down to the fact that a
1 number of these detainees or several individuals beat
2 him up or quarrelled with him with respect to certain
3 events that had taken place during the detention
5 And so I followed along this logically and
6 thought that if these individuals were possibly
7 witnesses for the Prosecution, because I didn't know
8 who these individuals were, then quite certainly
9 Mr. Agnes, as a Defence witness, would not be credible
10 because possibly people could have known this and then
11 checked out the credibility of my witness, for example,
12 if I were to put him forward. So it is in that context
13 that I said what I did yesterday.
14 So it is a piece of information that reached
15 me. Of course, it need not be a correct piece of
16 information. But on the basis of that information, I
17 was able to make a decision as to the credibility of
18 somebody who would one day make me a statement and that
19 I could perhaps put forward as a potential witness for
20 Mr. Milan Simic. So that is the essence of what I was
21 trying to say yesterday here in this courtroom.
22 Q. So is that a long way of telling me you don't
23 have the names of witnesses for me?
24 A. The witnesses that I received information
25 from, you mean? Well, I can, of course, give you
1 them. There isn't a problem there. But I see no
2 reason why I should here.
3 Let me be quite frank. I'll tell the Trial
4 Chamber -- I'm willing to tell the Trial Chamber
5 everything. One of the people I talked to was my
6 investigator, Mr. Spasoje Pisarevic, who had this kind
7 of information given him, and he drew my attention to
8 it. Of course, he did not check it out either, and
9 that is why I said that it was a piece of information
10 which need not be true, need not be correct. But it
11 allowed me to make my own conclusions.
12 And I had some other very strong arguments
13 leading me to decide that I should treat this
14 individual as an informer and not as a witness or
15 potential witness. So that is what I know about that
16 subject. I had quite a number of talks with people in
17 Samac, you know.
18 Q. Your source of information wasn't independent
19 witnesses at all; it was your investigator and it was
20 rumour and innuendo?
21 A. Well, it's like this: I make my own
22 decisions on the basis of the evidence that I have at
23 my disposal. But when I paint a picture of something,
24 then you can believe me that I can also paint a picture
25 on the basis of rumours and innuendo. However, if
1 rumour and innuendo were the sole source of
2 information, then I probably wouldn't have brought in
3 that kind of decision.
4 But I heard what I heard from Ms. Jasna
5 Marosevic, and I checked out my information in the
6 field, and all this indicated that an individual of
7 that kind could not be a credible witness in the
8 Defence case for Mr. Milan Simic, and so I made a
9 definite decision and severed all further contacts with
10 him in treating him as a potential witness in the case
11 before this Tribunal. So that is what I can tell you
12 about that particular matter at this particular point.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: Sir, I want to move on to
14 another area.
15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
16 Mr. Ryneveld, I should like you to ask the witness.
17 The witness has told us that he decided at a certain
18 point in time not to use Mr. Agnes anymore as a witness
19 due to the absence of credibility that he thought he
20 had and decided to use him as an informer, as a source
21 of information. Could you ask the witness what
22 prompted him to use Mr. Agnes as an informer?
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I
25 Q. Sir, you've heard His Honour's question. I
1 will repeat it. What prompted you to use Mr. Agnes as
2 an informer, if not any longer as a witness?
3 A. I'll give you a brief answer, although I do
4 believe that I spoke about that yesterday.
5 I had several pieces of information given to
6 me by Mr. Agnes which indicated that it was an
7 individual -- I was dealing with an individual whom I
8 could not believe, whose credibility I could not
9 believe in.
10 He told me himself that he had two names, one
11 name which he used during his sojourn in the Republika
12 Srpska and the other name which he used while he was in
13 Serbia. He himself told me that he had changed his
14 name in a way as he put before this Tribunal, although
15 I think when he told me about this change of name, he
16 said he changed his religion as well, that is to say,
17 that he changed his religion in church. And he also
18 told me that he was a refugee.
19 Now, I can consider myself highly competent
20 at least in that area, because in the course of my
21 professional life and work, I drew up and drafted rules
22 and regulations relating to that subject matter and I
23 knew that that was a lie.
24 When he told me this, I knew for a fact that
25 he had lied to me or he was lying to me, because he
1 could not have been able to do that officially, above
2 board, he could not have done that; not because he was
3 a Muslim but because no individual who was a refugee in
4 Serbia, even if he was a Serb or any other nationality,
5 could change his surname, because refugees are not
6 entitled to avail themselves of the right to change
7 their surname. This can only be done by citizens --
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
9 Mr. Avramovic, you're moving away from the question.
10 We already have a full page of the transcript on the
11 screen, at least, without me getting an answer to my
13 What made you, once you decided not to use
14 Mr. Agnes as a witness -- that we have understood, but
15 you maintained contact with him after that -- what was
16 it that prompted you to use him as a source of
17 information, and which kind of information did you
18 expect from him, and did you get that information from
19 him? That is the gist of the question.
20 A. Yes, I understand you, Your Honour. I would
21 merely like, as the Prosecutor has just asked me, to
22 tell you of some details which made me decide that I
23 wouldn't use him. First, the fact that he had
24 committed a criminal offence on the territory of the
25 Republika Srpska; next the fact that he was in the army
1 of the Republika Srpska and for unknown reasons had
2 stepped down from it; also the fact that
3 Ms. Marosevic --
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No, I have
5 to interrupt you. That was not what I wanted. We
6 already have all that information. The Tribunal has
7 heard all that through the very testimony and
8 cross-examination of Mr. Agnes himself, so there's no
9 point in repeating that for a second or third time.
10 You yourself, you're testifying now. Mr. Agnes has
11 already testified.
12 Why did you decide to use Mr. Agnes as an
13 informer, and what information did you expect to get
14 from him?
15 A. My decision to take him on as an informer was
16 exclusively guided by his proposal and desire to get me
17 in touch with the individuals whom I had ascertained
18 he, in fact, could get me in touch with. For that, you
19 don't need credibility of any kind. So my sources of
20 information are also criminals or people who have been
21 convicted of certain offences, and I expected that he
22 could perhaps give me some information related to
23 another contact that he could schedule for me, which he
24 did not do. He did not put me in touch with anybody.
25 This does not mean that I need not -- that I would not
1 perhaps decide to call him as a witness one day in the
2 proceedings here. So I think that that would be my
3 answer to the question posed by Your Honour.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: So following up from that --
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: Thank you.
7 MR. RYNEVELD:
8 Q. Following up from that, Mr. Avramovic, you
9 are quite content to use an unreliable, as you put it,
10 informer; is that right?
11 A. Well, an informer is somebody who can be very
12 unreliable but who can give you a piece of information
13 which you check out later on. It's a contact man,
14 somebody who puts you in touch with somebody else, who
15 informs you about something, and it is up to you to
16 determine the truth of the information you've been
17 given. So an informer is a well-known category in any
18 proceedings and in preparing a defence case as well.
19 Q. And I take it informers are usually rewarded
20 for their efforts, aren't they?
21 A. It depends what subject and before what
22 organs and institutions. If you're thinking about
23 informers officially working for certain services, then
24 I can only assume that they are remunerated for their
25 work, depending on the service which has engaged those
1 individuals to provide them with information. But when
2 we're talking about a defence case, this is done on a
3 voluntary basis, absolutely, and something which is
4 left to the personal discretion of the individual,
5 whether he wishes to do so or not. So you must behave
6 towards these individuals according to the book and
7 according to the principle of voluntariness. And if
8 they wish to do so, they do; and if they don't, they
10 Q. And Mr. Agnes was going to do this from the
11 goodness of his heart for one of the people who was
12 present when he was detained; is that it?
13 A. I cannot enter into his motives, nor can I
14 explain his motives fully. I said a moment ago that
15 his motives could be through the friendship that he had
16 with Ms. Marosevic. Why shouldn't an individual, quite
17 simply, be held in that status regardless of whether he
18 was a detainee? That is my view, and that is what I
19 decided to do in October 1998.
20 Q. I'll move on. Sir, you've told us that you
21 shared office space with Mr. Pantelic and Mr. Vukovic,
22 is that correct, in Belgrade?
23 A. Yes. But there's some other colleagues -- I
24 apologise, yes.
25 Q. There were some other colleagues. Okay. You
1 would share office space, share expenses, share phone
2 lines, share secretarial maybe?
3 A. Well, you could say that the majority of the
4 things you enumerated, the sort of logistics of it, are
6 Q. But you have separate practices?
7 A. Absolutely so.
8 Q. But in a collegial setting, would you help
9 each other out? For example, if somebody was sick or
10 on holidays or tied up in trial, would you assist each
11 other with each other's cases?
12 A. In practice, we can always ask for a
13 replacement of any lawyer who is not able to attend
14 trials. In concrete terms, I always can and have the
15 right to ask somebody -- some of my colleagues to
16 replace me in a trial and that is something that we
17 avail ourselves of, but we always take an expert,
18 theoretically viewed, and hypothetically. I'm
19 answering your question hypothetically.
20 For example, if somebody who could replace me
21 was in my own environment, then I would ask him to
22 replace me at a trial or anything else, at some
23 proceedings before a court.
24 Q. Mr. Avramovic, the questions I'm about to
25 pose to you are not technical, they're not
1 hypothetical, and I'm going to direct them
3 Did you have the kind of working relationship
4 with your colleagues, your -- I won't call them
5 partners because that has another legal expression, but
6 with your colleagues in practice, that you would assist
7 each other?
8 A. I wouldn't put it that way. I think that we
9 all worked for ourselves as individual private
11 Q. But you knew about each other's cases?
12 A. Well, we would socialise, of course, outside
13 the office as well, and we would exchange information
14 about our clients or potential cases which we decided
15 to take on. We're friends, yes.
16 Q. And Milan Simic's case was one of those cases
17 that you discussed?
18 A. If you have in mind the defence of Milan
19 Simic, then myself and Drago Vukovic were involved in
20 that case from the very beginning, and when I was
21 officially appointed his assistant, we did talk about
22 it, yes.
23 Q. Mr. Pantelic knew what you were up to as
24 well, didn't he?
25 A. He did, of course, know the case that I was
1 involved in.
2 Q. And would you discuss the names of potential
3 witnesses with your colleagues?
4 A. Well, in exchanging information about our
5 work and in exchanging the knowledge that we came by
6 sometimes, it would be possible sometimes to impart
7 information about potential witnesses as well or
8 individuals which could give you information. I would
9 tell that to my colleague Mr. Pisarevic were that
10 relevant for his client.
11 Q. Sure. Now, I suggest to you, sir, that you
12 had discussions with Mr. Agnes about a rehearsal
13 programme that you wanted him to attend, didn't you? A
14 rehearsal of evidence.
15 A. A rehearsal of testimony that I heard for the
16 first time through his statements. That is when I
17 first learned that type of terminology; that is to say,
18 between myself and Mr. Agnes it was never a topic of
19 discussion, nor was I able to understand what it
21 Q. Well, didn't you discuss with him that there
22 would be a time when he would come for a week and
23 someone would pretend to be a Prosecutor and someone
24 would pretend to be a Defence counsel and his evidence
25 would be rehearsed? Didn't that happen?
1 A. No. We never discussed that.
2 Q. Well, sir, Mr. Agnes is not a lawyer, is he?
3 To your knowledge.
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. How would he know about such a programme of
6 rehearsed evidence unless someone had talked to him
7 about that?
8 MR. HAYNES: I think I am going to object to
9 that question.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, I think that's
11 more in the form of a comment.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, it's a comment that I
13 would ask the witness to -- yes, you're right. Sorry.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think it's a matter for us
15 to make that assessment.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: You're right. Well, let me go
18 Q. Now, at the time when all of this occurred
19 in, say, April and May, there was a scheduled trial
20 date for this case, was there not, the 22nd of June?
21 Do you recall?
22 A. Yes. At that time in May, at a conference
23 which was held, I think, on the 27th, 8th, or 9th of
24 April, a trial date had been set for the 23rd, I think,
25 of June. Yes. I remember that quite well. That was
1 the first time I learnt that the trial would begin.
2 Q. Sir, I'd suggested to you that you had, in
3 fact, discussed with Mr. Agnes, that there was such a
4 programme of rehearsal and that your colleagues knew
5 about it. I suggested that to you and you denied it;
6 is that correct?
7 A. I absolutely deny something I never talked
8 about nor discussed. And at the end, when I learnt
9 about the trial, I didn't see that man again.
10 Q. Sir, did you listen to the tape of the
11 telephone conversation of the 10th of May, 1999, where
12 there is a discussion with your colleague Mr. Pantelic,
13 followed by a discussion with you? Did you listen to
14 that tape, all of it?
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 MR. HAYNES: We dealt with this, and that
17 portion of the tape is not part of the evidence in this
19 MR. RYNEVELD: My response is: Not yet.
20 It's now quite clearly an issue of credibility, and I'm
21 about to launch my cross-examination of this witness on
22 the basis of the foundation which I have just laid on
23 the issue of credibility of an extremely significant
24 issue, that there is reference in the portion of the
25 tape referring to a programme. Mr. Pantelic, in that
1 tape, actually talks about the timing of the programme
2 being changed, and he calls him by the name "Daki."
3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Haynes,
4 if my recollection is correct, you yourself, in your
5 examination of this witness, you referred to this
6 conversation, and it is normal, it is quite pertinent
7 for the cross-examination to refer to it. I think that
8 this kind of objection should not be repeated
9 frequently. The cross-examination fits within the
10 framework of the examination-in-chief, even if it has
11 not been admitted into evidence.
12 I think that you should not raise this kind
13 of objection.
14 MR. HAYNES: Well, I'm sorry if anything in
15 my examination-in-chief was misleading or was not easy
16 to follow, but I think Your Honour will find that the
17 telephone conversation I referred to was the one
18 between Mr. Agnes and Mr. Avramovic and only that
19 conversation, and there can be no sensible suggestion
20 that that is inadmissible, and I do not suggest it's
21 inadmissible, and if he needs to be cross-examined
22 about that, then he can be. But we're now moving into
23 an area where the conversation referred to is between
24 Mr. Agnes and a third party.
25 JUDGE HUNT: That's the problem. You see, it
1 was excluded before, or at least it was not admissible
2 because it looked as if it was seeking to involve
3 Mr. Pantelic in some form of contempt, and that had
4 been a matter that had been dealt with at some earlier
6 Well, this evidence now goes in as a fact
7 relevant to credit, not to show that Mr. Pantelic has
8 been guilty of contempt but to show there was some
9 discussion about a rehearsal. Why is it not admissible
10 as hearsay evidence?
11 MR. HAYNES: I say it's not admissible
12 because it's a conversation between Mr. Agnes and a
13 third party, and --
14 JUDGE HUNT: So what?
15 MR. HAYNES: Well, it's not something upon
16 which this witness can properly comment.
17 JUDGE HUNT: No. No, no. He's not being
18 asked to comment on the fact of the conversation but
19 the truth of what was said.
20 MR. HAYNES: Then that would make it pure
22 JUDGE HUNT: If he says he knows nothing
23 about it, that's the end of the cross-examination, but
24 it would not make the rest of the tape inadmissible.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, we have
1 considered this matter. We think that there is a
2 sufficient foundation for the question.
3 MR. HAYNES: Well, I think we better think
4 about the practicality of this then, because at the
5 moment, we, none of us, have heard it in evidence in
6 this case, nor seen any transcript of it in any
7 language. It's simply not part of the evidence. It
8 hasn't been moved into evidence.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld?
10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. The
11 tape is primed and ready to go. I have transcripts of
12 it, and the original transcript, I believe, has already
13 been filed and is in evidence before this Court.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I don't know. I haven't
15 seen the documents that came in with that tender. But
16 it's certainly a document that I have seen.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. And my friends have a
18 copy of the tape -- my friends have a copy of the tape
19 itself. They've heard the entire tape. They've had
20 this for quite some time.
21 MR. HAYNES: No. I wasn't seeking to suggest
22 that as a matter of fact this had not been disclosed, I
23 was seeking to discover how this is going to affect the
24 course of these proceedings, whether it is to be
25 adduced as evidence now or as some form of rebuttal in
1 due course, and of course it raises the very obvious
2 possibility if not probability that the Defence will be
3 calling a further witness.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll come to that.
5 Mr. Ryneveld, proceed.
6 MR. RYNEVELD:
7 Q. To repeat my question, sir, did you listen to
8 the tape, all of it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Including the portion between "Daki" -- and
11 just so we're clear, that's Mr. Agnes; correct -- and
13 A. Yes. But may I just make a brief comment? I
14 heard the tape at Mr. Morrison's, who was my Defence
15 counsel at the time, who took that document on a tape
16 recorder he had in his apartment, and the truth of the
17 matter is that I focused on the part of the
18 conversation between me and Mr. Daki or, rather,
19 Agnes. So I did hear it but I didn't really pay full
20 attention to every detail of that conversation.
21 Q. No problem, sir. I think it's only about
22 30 seconds long.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: With the Court's permission, I
24 propose to have the first minute or so of the tape
25 played for the portion. I have copies of the
1 transcript for the assistance of the Chamber, and I
2 believe my friend has copies.
3 MR. HAYNES: I think we all have copies
4 because notwithstanding the ruling that was made
5 earlier on, the transcript of both of these telephone
6 conversations went into the evidence anyway.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: For ease of location --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you have those
9 transcripts passed up?
10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
11 [Audio tape played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voice-over]
13 "Daki: Hello. Daki speaking. Hello. Hey,
14 who's is on the phone?
15 "Igor: It's Igor. Hello. Yes, yes.
16 "Daki: Hey, where's Bani?
17 "Igor: Hello.
18 "Daki: Bani. Bani, where is Bani?
19 "Igor: Call him on his mobile: 207.
20 "Daki: 207 203.
21 "Igor: That's right, call him.
22 "Daki: And where is he?
23 "Igor: He's in Belgrade.
24 "Daki: Can I get him there? I've been
25 calling him for an hour at that number, 207 203. Do
1 you understand me?
2 "Igor: What did you say?
3 "Daki: I have been calling him at 207 203
4 for about an hour. I can't get through. Well, I can't
5 get him. What?
6 "Igor: Yes, yes. Well, call him later in
7 the afternoon, or he will be in Samac on Tuesday.
8 "Daki: In Samac on Tuesday? Hey, Igor,
9 listen. When does that programme with Bani start?
10 "Igor: That will be towards the end of the
12 "Daki: Okay. I was in contact with him and
13 he mentioned May, mid-May.
14 "Igor: That doesn't matter. It's not urgent
16 "Daki: All right. I'll call Bani and
17 arrange it with him.
18 "Igor: Try to get hold of him in the
19 afternoon. Okay.
20 "Daki: Goodbye."
21 MR. RYNEVELD: That's sufficient.
22 Q. Do you recall hearing that conversation,
23 sir? Were you able to hear it -- no, Daki, quite
24 clearly? That's Mr. Agnes; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. "Igor," that's your colleague Mr. Pantelic?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. The phone number referred to, that's your
4 phone number, 207-203?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And you see that Mr. Agnes asks Mr. Pantelic,
7 "When is that programme with Bani start?" And the
8 answer was, "Towards the end of the year," or words to
9 that effect, I'm paraphrasing. "Daki, I was at your
10 place with him and now he's something about
11 May, mid-May."
12 What programme does that refer to, sir, if it
13 isn't the rehearsal programme that Mr. Agnes talked
15 A. It is very difficult to answer that question
16 with complete certainty on the basis of what I have
17 just heard, and it is a good thing that you have
18 reminded me of this because I said a moment ago that
19 the last time I listened to this, I didn't pay any
20 attention to this part.
21 Mr. Agnes, it seems to me, uses the word
22 "programme", and he says "in May." Mr. Pantelic, as
23 far as I was able to understand, says it's not May but
24 some other date. That is what I heard.
25 What was implied, what is he asking him about
1 which programme and what Mr. Pantelic understood him to
2 mean, it is very difficult for me to give you a very
3 unequivocal answer. From what I have heard, I am not
4 convinced that this has anything to do with a programme
5 of rehearsal. Even now that I've heard it -- maybe I
6 should hear it once again to see whether any mention of
7 a rehearsal is made -- only the word "programme" is
8 used. And what Mr. Agnes means under that word
9 addressing Mr. Pantelic, and what Mr. Pantelic meant
10 when he gave him his answer, it is really difficult for
11 me to give you a clearcut answer, under oath, to that
13 Q. I'm not asking you what Mr. Pantelic had in
14 mind. I'm asking you, sir, what do you think that
15 Daki, Mr. Agnes, was referring to when he said, "That
16 programme with Bani that was first discovered about
17 May, mid-May"? Do you know of any programme with Bani,
18 you, with Daki in mid-May?
19 A. There was no programme agreed between him and
20 me linked to any kind of trial or any methodology of
21 work, if that is what you are asking me. That is
22 something I never discussed with him, never.
23 Q. All right.
24 A. I can give you a complete answer to that.
25 Q. So you deny that there was a programme,
1 despite what Mr. Agnes said on the phone to your
2 partner, Mr. Pantelic?
3 A. No. Between me and Agnes, there was no
4 programme planned in the sense that you are implying.
5 Perhaps he is trying to provoke Mr. Pantelic. I really
6 don't know. He uses slang a lot anyway, so I don't
7 know. I simply don't know.
8 Q. Well, sir, let's move on to something that
9 you should know something about. That's the
10 conversation that you had with Daki later on in the
11 phone call. When he said, near the end of the phone
12 call, and I'm sure you'll refresh your memory -- page 3
13 near the bottom, My Lords -- "All right, then. So
14 there's no --" I'm sorry, back up a little bit.
15 Daki: Hey, listen. I definitely need the
16 money. Did you hear me?
17 Bani: What?
18 Daki: Do you understand me? You know the
19 situation is I have nowhere to go, apartment,
20 this or that.
21 Bani: I shall send you --
22 And then there is an unintelligible portion.
23 Daki: We'll sort it out.
24 Bani: Unintelligible.
25 Daki: Tomorrow afternoon?
1 Bani: Unintelligible.
2 Daki: Ah-hah.
3 Bani: Unintelligible.
4 Daki: All right. If it should be or you
5 call you, that is, I shall call you, you know
6 when to come. All right, get in touch with
7 her. Our --
8 And then there is nothing further. Then the answer:
9 Daki: All right. So there is no problem
10 about the money?
11 Bani: We'll be in touch through her.
12 A couple of questions arising out of that.
13 Who is "her"?
14 A. Jasna Marosevic.
15 Q. What was the money?
16 A. I hear for the first time in my life in that
18 Q. You had never heard the reference to money in
19 the conversation when you heard the tape played last
21 A. No, I told you that this was the first time
22 in my life and in contact with him that I heard him
23 mention money. No, I didn't say I hadn't heard it. Of
24 course, I heard it and I read it, although there are
25 certain corrections to be made in the transcript that
1 I've drawn Mr. Haynes' attention to, and he tried to
2 intervene and to correct the transcript, because that
3 transcript has not been correctly translated. That is
4 the problem. And this is a highly-relevant fact, and
5 that relevant fact is linked to my answer to the
6 question. What? Because it is the first time I hear
7 him mention such a thing on the phone, and, anyway, I
8 never heard it, and my answer is, "I'll call you,"
9 without wishing to chase him away and to hang up. In
10 translation of that transcript, it says, "I'll send
11 it," which is not what I said. "I'll call you."
12 The meaning of the whole conversation is
13 we'll see each other in Bosanski Samac, through her, so
14 as to talk about what I assumed he wanted to discuss,
15 and that is his existential problem, because that is
16 what he had told me at the meeting in April.
17 Therefore, neither did I promise him
18 anything, nor did I in any way intimate a positive
19 solution to his requests. That is the only fact that I
20 can quite definitely state my opinion about.
21 His comments are leading. That is, he is
22 saying something that I have not said in my answers.
23 What I keep saying is, "I'll call you when I get to
24 Bosanski Samac."
25 Furthermore, that transcript doesn't contain
1 some other parts which I have managed, in cooperation
2 with my Defence team, to reconstruct, and that is why
3 Mr. Haynes has suggested that those texts be amended to
4 be a correct translation of the conversation. That is
5 the conversation.
6 Q. I have a copy of the translation that your
7 counsel has provided me, and I can assure you I have no
8 difficulty with that going to the Court. But in the
9 translation that you have provided or in the
10 translation that the Court now has, do you see anything
11 in the conversation with Mr. Agnes and you whereby you
12 say, "What the heck are you talking about, money?" Did
13 you say anything like that to him? Did you ever say,
14 "What do you mean, money?" Did you say that to him?
15 Sorry, sir. "Yes" or "No" would really
16 help. Did you say it?
17 A. I know you would like me to give you such an
18 answer, but I would need to have a complete transcript,
19 a translation of everything that the two of us said.
20 And as important parts of sentences are missing in this
21 translation, you're asking me to say "Yes" or "No", and
22 I'm telling you that from our conversation, one could
23 adduce that regarding the question he's asking me, my
24 answer is, "We can talk about it when we see each
25 other, because I don't know what you're talking about."
1 He may have had a contact. Maybe he needs
2 reimbursement of expenses he has had. Maybe he needs
3 some other service from me that he would convey to me
4 in person but not by telephone, and that is why I
5 refused to discuss that subject.
6 He is making leading questions. What the
7 agreement was is for us to see each other in Bosanski
8 Samac and to discuss the matter, because these are
9 things I never discuss by telephone. That is the
10 point, and that is why I am saying, once again, one has
11 to bear in mind two things; the contents and the
12 circumstances of the conversation.
13 I tried to explain yesterday the
14 circumstances, and today I am giving you the answers
15 regarding the contents of the conversation.
16 Q. So your response to the reference to money
17 and an apartment is, "We will talk about it and we'll
18 get in touch with Jasna, through Jasna"; is that it?
19 A. I did say that we will discuss at Jasna's
20 what he mentions at the beginning without being
21 specific. I cannot give him an answer to that question
22 when I don't see any explanations. That may be a
23 question of expenses. It may be a quite insignificant
24 matter that we need to discuss. But as the transcript
25 is obviously devoid of significant parts, I cannot give
1 you an authoritative answer.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we should move on
3 now, Mr. Ryneveld.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I'm going to move on to
5 sitting down. Those are my questions. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Those are your questions.
7 Any re-examination?
8 MR. HAYNES: Well, since Mr. Ryneveld says he
9 has no difficulty with the amended transcript that
10 we've provided --
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Not at all.
12 MR. HAYNES: -- I've only got two copies at
13 the moment. I wonder if I could lead --
14 MR. RYNEVELD: I have one here.
15 MR. HAYNES: Good.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: That's a clean copy that you
17 provided me, Mr. Haynes.
18 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. I think logically
19 they should be Exhibit 1B, the Prosecution translation
20 having been Exhibit 1A.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps my friend could
23 clarify, but I believe just the changes are in bold
24 print, as I understand it. Is that correct?
25 MR. HAYNES: That's correct, yes.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, don't start --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't commence yet.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, we have seen the
7 document that you have presented representing the
8 translation of the conversation. What the Chamber will
9 do is bring it to the attention of the official
10 translators of the Tribunal and ask them to comment in
11 particular on certain portions.
12 MR. HAYNES: Well, I'm a little confused as
13 to how I should proceed now, then. Would you prefer
14 that the re-examination of Mr. Avramovic be deferred
15 until tomorrow afternoon?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I think you should
17 proceed, I think you should proceed.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Are we going to be told how this
19 particular translation was brought into being? I know
20 that Mr. Avramovic has said that he made certain
21 suggestions to you, but did you have somebody
22 independent translate it?
23 MR. HAYNES: The history of the document is
24 that the Prosecution translation was handed to us the
25 morning, I think, that it was played.
1 JUDGE HUNT: When you say "the Prosecution
2 translation", it was, in fact, done by the official
4 MR. HAYNES: Well, that's as it may be, but
5 it was the first sight we had had of the translation,
6 and it was just before the morning it was played. We
7 had the tape listened to, and we made suggested
8 amendments. I don't proffer any criticism, but, in
9 fact, that document has been in the possession of the
10 Prosecution for in excess of a month now, and we
11 invited them to agree that there were supplements to
12 the translation and corrections. Until now, we had
13 received no answer. The answer, it appears, is they
14 have no difficulty with that. I assume they --
15 JUDGE HUNT: No difficulty with us saying it
16 was the words. I don't know what that quite means, but
17 it wasn't an acceptance of its accuracy.
18 MR. HAYNES: Well, that was why it was
19 submitted to them several weeks ago, so that they might
20 consider its accuracy. I'm afraid I took that as a
21 concession that it was accurate.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, what was it intended to
23 be, Mr. Ryneveld?
24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. My friend gave it
25 to me at the close of one of the days. I must take
1 full responsibility. It was given to me. It was
2 shuffled into my briefcase, along with a number of
3 other papers, and frankly I did not have it
5 It was brought to our attention again, I
6 believe, today, and I indicated that I had not had an
7 opportunity to have it checked out. But we did look at
8 the documents and thought that the changes did not --
9 were not of great significance to my
10 cross-examination. So I had no objection to the Court
11 seeing it or even considering it.
12 But I cannot vouch for its accuracy, because
13 apart from receiving it, yes, I admit well in advance I
14 did not have it sent to the official translators for
15 verification. But I didn't want to take paltry
16 advantage of the fact that I hadn't had it checked to
17 prevent my friend from at least introducing it.
18 So in that respect, I take full
19 responsibility that I am unable to do anything more
20 than say to you I have no objection to it going in. I
21 cannot, of course, vouch for its veracity or
23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
24 Well, Mr. Haynes, you haven't really revealed
25 the source of your translation. Was it an independent
2 MR. HAYNES: It was in house, in effect.
3 JUDGE HUNT: That's hardly independent. The
4 answer to it is it was not independent.
5 MR. HAYNES: No. I mean the difficulty is,
6 with this particular piece of evidence, that there are
7 actually three sources to it. Mr. Agnes has given
8 evidence about what he says --
9 JUDGE HUNT: We're worried about the accuracy
10 of this transcript.
11 MR. HAYNES: Yes.
12 JUDGE HUNT: You haven't had it done
13 independently, so that all we need to do, then, is to
14 have it checked, for our translators to say, "Well, it
15 could be that," or, "It is not that."
16 MR. HAYNES: I'm happy that that is done. I
17 don't know in what time scale that can be achieved.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe that can be done
19 very expeditiously.
20 Proceed with your re-examination.
21 MR. HAYNES: Just a few questions, Mr.
23 Re-examined by Mr. Haynes:
24 Q. Dealing with the question of the blue bag
25 briefly, when the blue bag was handed to you, that was,
1 you say, in September?
2 A. Yes, the 17th of September.
3 Q. In vague terms, did you have any idea where
4 Mr. Agnes was at that time?
5 A. On the 17th of September, I assumed that he
6 was probably in the Netherlands. I wasn't sure of
7 that. I don't know.
8 Q. Did it appear to you at that stage he was
9 likely to want to come back and reclaim his belongings
10 that were in that bag?
11 A. The proceedings were ongoing, so I really
12 couldn't assess what would happen. But I must believe
13 that I didn't believe that he would come to pick up his
14 things, as the proceedings were under way and I knew he
15 was here, so I didn't expect him to come back.
16 Q. Did you actually take anything out of the bag
17 on the day that it was handed to you?
18 A. No, I didn't take anything. I put it away in
19 the way I have told you.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, one other thing.
21 Going back a year to September of 1998, if we
22 may, there was a hearing in the trial on indictment
23 between September the 2nd and September the 4th, I
24 think, of 1998; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Prior to that date, what charge had Milan
2 Simic faced?
3 A. Milan Simic was charged for events in the
4 elementary school or, rather, for an event in which
5 Milan Simic allegedly participated in beating up
6 certain people. That would be the charge in brief, in
8 Q. After the hearing in early September 1998,
9 what charge did he then face?
10 A. After the Status Conference or the hearing
11 that was held at the beginning of September, the
12 accused pleaded on the amended indictment in which the
13 charges were expanded with respect to Milan Simic to
14 include the charge of persecution.
15 Q. How did that change in the charge that he
16 faced, from an isolated incident to one of persecution,
17 affect your decision to meet Mr. Agnes in late
18 September of 1998?
19 MR. RYNEVELD: I must rise. Didn't we cover
20 this before in chief, and how does it arise out of
22 JUDGE HUNT: Was there any cross-examination
23 upon this, Mr. Haynes?
24 MR. HAYNES: I believe there was.
25 JUDGE HUNT: You believe. I don't. At least
1 I don't remember it. But I'm happy to accept your
2 assurance if you're right, but I certainly don't
3 remember it. What was the nature of the
5 MR. HAYNES: The nature of the
6 cross-examination was that Drago Vukovic, having formed
7 certain impressions of the witness that were
8 unfavourable, there would thus be no point in
9 Mr. Avramovic going to see him and see what he had to
10 say. The point is that there had been a material
11 change in the case between the time that Drago Vukovic
12 had seen him and when Mr. Avramovic first saw him.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: We heard that in chief.
14 JUDGE HUNT: That's right.
15 MR. HAYNES: Fine.
16 Q. Nextly, Mr. Avramovic, dealing with the
17 question that was put to you earlier on, you understand
18 the meaning of the word "lure"?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was it your understanding that Mr. Agnes was
21 to lure Mirsad Sahanic to come to Bosnia?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, between May -- between
24 September of 1998 and May of 1999, did you have a lot
25 of work to do in relation to the preparation of the
1 trial and indictment?
2 MR. RYNEVELD: I think we heard that
3 ad nauseam.
4 MR. HAYNES: I don't think we did.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead, Mr. Haynes. We
6 must try to conclude.
7 MR. HAYNES: Yes, of course.
8 Q. Did you do a lot of work in relation to the
9 trial and the indictment between September of 1998 and
10 May of 1999?
11 A. Let me answer your question very briefly. In
12 professional terms, that period in my life was, in the
13 first place for my family, a very difficult one,
14 because I had entirely forgotten my family and
15 dedicated my entire time to the case. Because of the
16 facts I had to prepare and to produce for this Trial
17 Chamber, I worked literally daily from 7.00 until
18 10.00, 11.00 at night. I worked virtually all
19 Saturdays and very many Sundays. I worked non-stop on
20 travel and in the office. I spent on the case and the
21 indictment at least 10 to 15 hours a day, and I devoted
22 everything to that case. In fact, I lost my clients.
23 I lost everything that I had been building up in my
24 career because I wished to give my all to this case.
25 And I sacrificed even my family. And now I understand
1 Mr. Vukovic, when he realised at the beginning of
2 September where further involvement in this case would
3 take him.
4 We in the Defence, Mr. Haynes, have very
5 modest possibilities compared to the Prosecution. We
6 have very limited staff to deal with such a complex
7 charge as persecution. If the indictment had remained
8 unchanged when the proceedings had started, it would
9 have been an easier undertaking. But to delve into the
10 issue of persecution, such a very broad charge is a
11 very difficult one, so that my life was exclusively
12 devoted to that task. That is, frankly, what I did.
13 Q. Now, again, just briefly if you can, how
14 difficult is it to find people to tell you what
15 happened in Bosanski Samac in 1992?
16 A. Extremely difficult.
17 Q. You spoke to Mr. Agnes on the 28th of
18 September, and you formed the view that he might be
19 useful for information. What was the basis of that
20 view that you took?
21 A. The basis for my view was the wish, through
22 him, to reach potential new witnesses for certain
23 events. And when I said a moment ago that it is
24 difficult to find witnesses, what I meant was something
25 that I need to explain.
1 The environment in which the events allegedly
2 occurred, according to the indictment, is a very small
3 community. It is a community in which it is very
4 difficult to do anything without these things being
5 revealed, so that it is very difficult to work in such
6 an environment. The charge is broad. There are many
7 witnesses. The Defence had contact with many. The
8 Defence can prepare in a qualitative manner for the
9 case, but I'm saying that it is very hard to work
10 because of the scope of the charges in the indictment.
11 And also this is not in my own town, so that I have to
13 Q. When you were -- spoke to Mr. Agnes on the
14 28th of the September and he looked at lists and
15 indicated that he knew some people, what expectation
16 did you have that he would be able to get in touch with
18 A. Well, at that time I didn't have any special
19 expectations, because he himself showed reservations as
20 to the success with these contacts. But, of course, I
21 did hope that if he succeeded in doing so, it would be
22 a good thing. It would be a good thing if we were able
23 to reach more credible or completely credible
25 Q. In the scheme of things, after the 28th of
1 September, how important was he to you in the conduct
2 of this case?
3 A. Well, I can tell you, quite frankly, that I
4 have a lot of people like him on hold, so to speak, so
5 that he is not a key source of information, so I didn't
6 devote any particular attention to him. That is being
7 very frank.
8 Q. And just lastly, because of something that
9 appeared in the transcript earlier on, after you spoke
10 to Jasna Marosevic, I think you said in about October
11 of 1998, was there any possibility that he would be
12 called as a witness in the defence of Milan Simic?
13 A. No. That was my stand as Defence counsel for
14 Milan Simic.
15 MR. HAYNES: Thank you.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Avramovic, the Chamber
18 has a question for you. It relates to the report done
19 by the senior legal officer of the billing records
20 which were submitted to the Registry. A copy of the
21 senior legal officer's report was submitted to you and
22 to Mr. Haynes. I'm going to pass a copy to you and ask
23 you to identify from the pseudonyms which one relates
24 to Mr. Agnes. Pages 3, 4, and 5 contain the
1 A. Your Honour, I have looked through this
2 document, and the pseudonyms are on the last page; that
3 is to say, page 5. They are the dates the 22nd of
4 September and the 28th of September. Those are the
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: That relate to Mr. Agnes?
7 A. Yes. Yes, of course, because there are no
8 other witnesses.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness --
10 A. Yes. There is no other witness from
11 Mitrovica, so then that is sure.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
13 Before we adjourn, I think we have to make an
14 assessment. Mr. Haynes, how long will your witness
16 MR. HAYNES: Well, I see no reason to
17 dissemble. My last witness is Mr. Simic. He will be
18 short in chief, but I would have thought it unrealistic
19 to suppose that in total he'll be much less than an
20 hour, I suppose.
21 The spectre has been raised today of a
22 further witness being called, and thereafter some
23 documents need to be introduced into evidence before I
24 close my case.
25 JUDGE HUNT: The further witness is to deal
1 with the transcript of the telephone conversation.
2 MR. HAYNES: Yes.
3 JUDGE HUNT: That would not be long, would
5 MR. HAYNES: No.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: And how long would your
7 address be, your submission?
8 MR. HAYNES: I wouldn't have thought they
9 would be much less than an hour.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, how long do
11 you think your cross-examination will be, and what is
12 the estimate of your time for your address?
13 MR. RYNEVELD: Since I have asked
14 Ms. Paterson to deliver the closing address, I've just
15 asked her, and she tells me less than an hour. I think
16 we can assume up to an hour and that's safe.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: So realistically, we should
18 try to find some time beyond tomorrow afternoon's
19 session, although we should try as hard as we can to
20 see how far we can go.
21 MR. HAYNES: Well, I suppose the other
22 possibility that's certainly been raised with me by the
23 senior legal officer is that if we do need to look for
24 another date, perhaps a substantial amount of closing
25 statement could be put into written form.
1 Again, I want to be completely up front. The
2 submissions I make are going to be substantially
3 evidentiary in their nature, but also they're going to
4 touch upon the scope of Rule 77 itself, and I wonder
5 whether that might be helpful.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, we'll take the
7 adjournment now, and tomorrow we'll make the
8 assessment. In the meantime, the Chamber will make an
9 effort to see whether there is any possibility for any
10 session to be held on Friday.
11 MR. HAYNES: Can I make a request that is
12 utterly selfish and it really dictates whether I'm
13 going to be burning the midnight oil tonight, and that
14 is: Does the Chamber envisage hearing closing oral
15 arguments tomorrow or not?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We would like to take it as
17 far as possible, certainly. We would like to have this
18 case concluded.
19 MR. HAYNES: Oh, I understand that, and so
20 would I.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: And concluded this week, so
22 that we would be making efforts to try to see whether
23 it's possible to fit something in on Friday. It will
24 be very difficult, but we'll try. But in the meantime,
25 we have to try to finish tomorrow.
1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Haynes,
2 if I understood well, you have another witness who will
3 not take very long for you. You said -- how much will
4 your witness take, the examination-in-chief of
5 Mr. Simic?
6 MR. HAYNES: A very short period of time.
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And the
9 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sure that's going to
10 depend on what he has to say, but I would imagine up to
11 half an hour.
12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Then
13 perhaps we could try and finish tomorrow afternoon.
14 I'm speaking in my own name, but I think we should make
15 an effort to finish tomorrow.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge Bennouna has spoken
17 for the Chamber. We'll make every effort to conclude
18 tomorrow afternoon.
19 So we adjourn until 2.30 tomorrow.
20 Mr. Avramovic, you are reminded that in the
21 adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with
23 JUDGE HUNT: He's finished.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry. You are
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
4 at 5.45 p.m., to be reconvened on
5 Thursday, the 2nd day of December, 1999
6 at 2.30 p.m.