Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 777

1 Thursday, 21 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I've asked for the witness to be kept out

7 briefly before continuing his cross-examination. We have been informed

8 overnight that there are some difficulties with the Albanian

9 interpretation, entirely as a result, no doubt, entirely understandably,

10 of the fact that Kosovo Albanians speak in a dialect that is perhaps very

11 distinctive and different from the Albanian spoken by Albanian Albanians.

12 We obviously have to pursue this as a potential difficulty to see how it

13 should be resolved if it recurs, but for the present, I thought it

14 important to alert the Chamber, and indeed the accused and the amici, to a

15 couple of potentially significant possible translation errors.

16 I don't know if the Court has hard copies of yesterday's

17 transcript, but I can tell you the page numbers that I have where errors

18 may have occurred. On line -- page 88, line 15 of his

19 examination-in-chief, where the witness was interpreted as saying that he

20 was happy when he saw the truck, I understand that the word "happy" may

21 have been a mistranslation for the word "Zhur," which is in fact the town

22 to which he was referring. So where he says he was happy, he was saying

23 no such thing, apparently. That could obviously have an effect on the

24 overall impact of his evidence.

25 JUDGE MAY: Why don't you ask him in re-examination what he

Page 778

1 meant?

2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, certainly we could do that, but --


4 MR. NICE: -- the accused should, of course, also know what the

5 difficulties are. Can I just tell you the one other matter --


7 MR. NICE: -- we believe to be important, potentially important?

8 When he was asked about his injuries, at page 91, and he referred to the

9 nature of the beating, the witness, we believe, made reference to the fact

10 that he was attacked in the area of his kidneys - and indeed he's on

11 dialysis now here in Holland while waiting to give evidence - but that

12 doesn't appear at all in the transcript. But apparently he mentioned it,

13 as we had expected that he would. Thank you.

14 JUDGE MAY: The matter can be looked into. The tape can be

15 listened to, and if there are these errors, they can be put right.

16 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE MAY: Meanwhile, is it right that the witness requires some

18 treatment today?

19 MR. NICE: This afternoon.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. So we need to get through him fairly rapidly.

21 Could we have the witness, please.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I clarify one point, please?

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not sure, as you switched my

25 microphone on yesterday, whether one point remained clear, and that is

Page 779

1 that I am opposed to an agreement between the Prosecution, Mr. Kay from

2 the amici curiae, not to have the tapes shown.

3 I am opposed to that because this is a public trial and the tapes

4 would have to be shown. This is in the interests of justice, because no

5 viewing of the tapes by the friends of the Court or by myself, if the

6 public cannot see the tapes and if they are in the possession of the

7 Prosecutor, then this does not serve justice. It is not in the interests

8 of justice.

9 So if the Prosecutor does indeed have some tapes which he

10 considers supports these false accusations against me, why not have the

11 international public see them?

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE MAY: We'll look at that.

14 Mr. Kay, did you want to add something?

15 MR. KAY: Yes. I have seen the tapes, which is why I asked that

16 the sound be removed from the tapes, because the sound, in my view, was

17 prejudicial to the accused's trial. It was commentary by those who were

18 making comments against his interests, who were not witnesses in this

19 courtroom, and therefore that would be something that the Court should not

20 hear.

21 I came to the arrangement over not showing the film because

22 there's a description of the film on the documents, and in my judgement,

23 it wouldn't have served any purpose in relation to the evidence in the

24 case at this stage.

25 JUDGE MAY: The accused is entitled to request that the films do

Page 780

1 be played in public, and obviously that's a matter we'll have to consider,

2 which we will.

3 MR. KAY: Absolutely. He's entitled to that. Again, we would say

4 with the proviso of no sound, as that would be in his interest, and no

5 doubt arrangements can be made by the Court for the showing of those films

6 at an appropriate moment.

7 JUDGE MAY: The issue which we have to determine is, of course,

8 the necessity for evidence to be given in public as against the

9 expeditious carrying out of the trial and whether it's necessary for every

10 videotape to be shown in public, in this case lasting three hours, is

11 something we'll have to consider.

12 MR. KAY: If this evidence is needed to be seen, it might be

13 better to take perhaps a passage in the case when there's a shortage of

14 witnesses or something happens that requires material to infill a vacant

15 space in the court day, because it's already been exhibited by the -- by

16 the witness.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know whether it remains

18 clear that I don't accept any kind of written witnesses, paper witnesses,

19 witnesses on paper.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, that's a separate issue which we're

21 going to have to address in due course. The amici have put a brief in on

22 this subject.

23 MR. KAY: That's right, Your Honour. Alert to the way the

24 Prosecution were bringing their case, we drafted a paper that

25 Mr. Wladimiroff filed yesterday to bring the issues to the attention of

Page 781

1 the Trial Chamber of the impact of the Prosecution relying on written

2 witness statements and to raise those issues in advance and before any

3 order was made.

4 JUDGE MAY: We -- we'll be considering those issues in due course,

5 and in fact, we shall request a brief from the Prosecution in response to

6 the -- to what the amici have written. It may be helpful for you to

7 address the problems, first of all, of the Rule; and secondly, of the

8 particular circumstances of this case, having regard to the jurisprudence

9 of the Tribunal.

10 MR. NICE: It's already in hand.

11 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

12 Mr. Milosevic, we will return to this written evidence in due

13 course. We're not going to make any decisions about it today, and it may

14 be not next week either.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The third point that I wanted to

16 make is the following: I wish to comment what we just heard from the

17 Prosecutor a moment ago, namely, the assertions that an Albanian doesn't

18 understand the Albanian language. There is no difference in dialect which

19 would stop a Kosovo Albanian being able to understand an Albanian from

20 Albania.

21 But as we're on the subject of language and linguistics, as I

22 assume that I have the right to continue my cross-examination, is that

23 so?


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 782

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

2 Q. [Interpretation] I should like to ask the following: If I say the

3 following to you in Albanian, "Ne kemi ba yzmet," what am I doing? "Ne

4 kemi ba yzmet." What am I doing when I said that? What have I done,

5 having said that?

6 A. I'm not sure. You know, I'm in dialysis at the moment. I'm not

7 able to say.

8 Q. Then I will tell you. I will give you the answer. Because in

9 Albanian, "Ne kemi ba yzmet," means I offered hospitality to somebody, I

10 extended hospitality, I put him up in my own house, and so on and so

11 forth, I acted as host.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And it is those words, in his

13 language, in his dialect, in Albanian, that the witness used. And in

14 translation, it was said, "I helped them," and he was referring to his

15 relationships with the KLA. It is not a question of the difference of

16 dialect here, but it is an intention on the part of the interpreter to

17 mitigate, weaken --

18 JUDGE MAY: You're not making those sort of allegations. We will

19 have this question looked into. We will have the tape played. Now, this

20 witness, you've heard, is in dialysis, and therefore we should complete

21 his evidence quickly so that he can have his treatment.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue?

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing else to say about that. I

25 have my own problems to deal with and my own suffering. I have nothing to

Page 783

1 say about that. I was up all night with my own problems, my own worries

2 here.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zeqiri, are you feeling fit enough to go on with

4 your evidence?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not well at all. I'm not

6 well at all. I'm not in a position to discuss all this. I've got my own

7 problems and worries.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zeqiri, if you can deal with some questions for

10 ten minutes, we'll allow Mr. Milosevic to ask questions for that time.

11 Can you manage that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Please, please. Excuse me,

13 please.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we're going to have to bring this

16 cross-examination to a close. We will note the circumstances in which it

17 happened, and that will affect our ruling eventually on this evidence. If

18 the witness is not well enough to continue, it's pointless to try and make

19 him.

20 Mr. Zeqiri, there is one question from the Bench which we would

21 ask you to deal with.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I'm sorry, I

23 can't answer any more questions at all.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zeqiri, just a short question. You said

Page 784

1 yesterday that while you were in hospital, your cousin in Germany called

2 you and told you that your family had been killed. My question is this:

3 How did your cousin get to know that your family had been killed?

4 A. They had found out that the family had been killed, and I called

5 them. I telephoned with them and I found out. That's how I found out

6 from them.

7 JUDGE KWON: Did your cousin tell you how did he come to know the

8 fact that your family had been killed?

9 A. I don't know.

10 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry about the death of your family, but did you

11 know how your family had been killed, on what occasion?

12 A. I didn't ask. He just told me. I didn't say anything.

13 JUDGE KWON: Okay. Thank you.

14 JUDGE MAY: Thank you, Mr. Zeqiri. Thank you for coming to the

15 International Tribunal to give your evidence. You're free to go.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 MR. NICE: Before the next witness is called by my learned friend

18 Ms. Romano, there's an issue in relation to exhibits that arises with this

19 witness and which will recur, I think, with other witnesses. It's to do

20 with the potential recognition of military vehicles of one kind and

21 another. The exhibit that we'll be asking this witness, and I think

22 others, to look at is available to the Chamber in colour and available to

23 the accused in colour. He may have had one served on him this morning but

24 probably won't have looked at it. Can I hand one in to the Chamber, in

25 any event, and one to the accused at the moment? If I'm rationing the

Page 785

1 colour copies, it's that they are limited in number. I think the amici

2 have already had this. I hope they have. If not, I'll give it to them in

3 black and white. But I think they have. The procedural problem or

4 procedural issue is this: There is a key, which we trust is accurate,

5 identifying --

6 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, but you don't have any --

7 MR. NICE: I'm sorry. I'm asking you Chamber to share at the

8 moment because of the limited number of colour copies and the plenty of

9 black-and-white copies.

10 We have a key, which I'll distribute in a second, for these

11 vehicles, which we trust is accurate. The Judges. Can you -- and for the

12 accused. Perhaps two for the Judges and one for the accused.

13 MR. KAY: Perhaps we could be provided with copies, because we

14 didn't know this was going to be produced, so we haven't got it here if we

15 have it.

16 MR. NICE: Black and white copies, if that will do for the amici?

17 MR. KAY: Yes.

18 MR. NICE: And a key for them as well. Obviously, if the accused

19 were represented, it would be possible to seek from those representing him

20 an agreement as to the accuracy of the key in what is shown in the

21 photographs. It will, of course, speed the trial process if it can be

22 agreed that the key is accurate. If the accused is minded to do that,

23 then we could proceed on that basis. If not, then we'll simply produce

24 the colour photographs to the relevant witness or witnesses and call

25 evidence later, attaching the key references to the individual

Page 786

1 photographs.

2 We, of course, can't contact the accused directly, and although I

3 forecast he may not be disposed to agree matters, it will save time if

4 he's prepared to do so.

5 JUDGE MAY: Or you'll have to call the necessary evidence.

6 MR. NICE: Or we'll have to call the necessary evidence.


8 MR. NICE: But I'm sorry to take time to do it. It always seems

9 prudent to attempt to save time where that possibility exists.

10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, if you've got a copy of the

11 photographs --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Your microphone, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MAY: If you've got a copy of the photographs, you're being

14 asked if you agree that these represent the vehicles set out in the

15 "Recognition Guide," as it's called. It's a matter for you. If you

16 agree it, you can tell us. If you don't agree, then we'll have to call --

17 some evidence will have to be called about it. It's a matter entirely for

18 you whether you agree it or not.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I'd like to say that

20 it is -- this operation is impermissible, the operation carried out by the

21 Prosecution having the witness removed, which was unsuccessful, and who

22 told untruths.

23 JUDGE MAY: No. No. We have moved on from there. We are not

24 arguing about that now. We're arguing about these -- we are discussing

25 these photographs.

Page 787

1 Mr. Nice, I think it's a pointless activity. You'll have to call

2 the evidence.

3 MR. NICE: Your Honours, so be it. A similar issue will arise in

4 relation to uniforms. We'll distribute the photographs of uniforms at the

5 appropriate stage and make a guide available on the basis that we'll prove

6 it later.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. If you'll call the next witness.

8 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution calls Elshani Fehim.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the declaration.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a seat.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examined by Ms. Romano:

17 Q. Mr. Elshani, can you please state your full name for the Chamber.

18 A. My name is Fehim Elshani.

19 Q. What's your date of birth?

20 A. 26th August, 1934.

21 Q. Are you married?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you have children?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How many children do you have?

Page 788

1 A. Five children, of whom three sons and two girls.

2 Q. What is your ethnicity, Mr. Elshani?

3 A. I am of Albanian nationality.

4 Q. What's your profession?

5 A. Farmer for the moment.

6 Q. And why do you say "for the moment"? What did you do before?

7 A. I was an accountant in Rahovec local service.

8 Q. And why did you stop working as an accountant?

9 A. I couldn't do that because I supported the workers' strikes for

10 Kosova's independence.

11 Q. And when did that happen?

12 A. 1991.

13 Q. And did you lose your job because of that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Elshani, are you familiar with the KLA?

16 A. I was not involved myself with KLA. I was never engaged in that

17 area.

18 Q. Do you have any military or train -- military training or

19 experience?

20 A. Yes. I did my military service from 1954 to 1957 in the former

21 Yugoslav popular army, JNA.

22 Q. Where did you live in 1998 and 1999?

23 A. I lived in my own home in a village called Nagafc in Rahovec

24 commune.

25 Q. Mr. Elshani, I'm going to show you a map.

Page 789

1 MS. ROMANO: With the assistance of the usher, can the witness be

2 shown Exhibit 4, map 1. This is the municipal map of Rahovec.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm not clear. Shall I have

4 to move from here?


6 Q. No. You just wait there. Just wait. I will show you a map.

7 A. Can I use my glasses, please? I can't see without them.

8 Q. Yes, please. In this map, Mr. Elshani, can you indicate to the

9 Court where you lived, the village of Nagafc? Only if you can,

10 Mr. Elshani.

11 A. I can do that, but these are very small letters. Seven kilometres

12 south of Rahovec, that is Rahovec village in the vicinity of Krusha e

13 Madhe. Unfortunately, I cannot read it. The letters are very small. The

14 road -- I can't hear.

15 JUDGE MAY: It does not matter. We can see the map, so that's

16 enough, and you've described where it is. Thank you.

17 Now, would you remove the map.

18 MS. ROMANO: Thank you, Mr. Elshani.

19 Q. Can you also tell the Court the neighbouring villages? Can you

20 name the villages around Nagafc?

21 A. My village, Nagafc, is bordering in the south Krusa Mala, in the

22 west with Celina village, in the north with Hoca e Vogel village, and in

23 the east with Randobrava. This means that the village is surrounded by

24 four villages: Krusa, Celina, Hoca e Vogel and Randobrava.

25 Q. And they are very close to each other?

Page 790

1 A. From our village, they are about three kilometres, at the most,

2 away. From 600 metres to three kilometres, at the most.

3 Q. Mr. Elshani, I'd like to draw your attention to the period from

4 1998 up to March 1999. Were there any fights between the KLA and the

5 Serbian forces near your town?

6 A. There were clashes around our town between forces of the KLA and

7 Serbian forces in several areas, in several areas of our town.

8 Q. And how did the fights affect the people of Nagafc and the

9 surrounding areas?

10 A. The result was insecurity, because every day our sense of

11 insecurity increased and the clashes of these forces led to the population

12 migrating from one village to another, in search of safer places for the

13 moment. On the 17th of May, I took in the first refugees from the

14 villages of Gecaj. This was the family of Xhafer Morina, with six members

15 of his immediate family, as refugees in my house.

16 Q. 16th of May of which year?

17 A. This was in 1998.

18 Q. Can you estimate for us how many people came to your village to

19 escape fighting in the surrounding areas?

20 A. About 250, according to various notes that I've had. These were

21 people who took shelter in our village.

22 Q. On the 24th of March, 1999, on the day that the NATO bombing

23 campaign started, where were you?

24 A. I was at home.

25 Q. Did anything happen that day in your village?

Page 791

1 A. Nothing happened in our village on that day, but we did hear from

2 the foreign media that NATO had started operations in Kosova.

3 Q. And what did you think was going to happen to you and your people

4 after the bombing campaign started?

5 A. I supposed that the worst would happen, which indeed happened the

6 next day, on 25th of March.

7 Q. Mr. Elshani, when you say "the worst," what do you mean with that?

8 A. By this I mean that the Serbian forces issued a lot of

9 communiques, saying that if they were attacked by NATO forces, they would

10 take revenge on the territory of Kosova, meaning on the Albanian

11 population.

12 Q. Why did you fear the Serb retaliation?

13 A. I think there was no reasonable person who wasn't afraid.

14 Q. I will now ask you questions about what happened on the next day,

15 on the 25th of March. Where were you on the 25th of March, early in the

16 morning?

17 A. Early in the morning on 25th of March, I was in my room and I

18 heard a loud noise of machinery, and I supposed that this must be Serbian

19 military equipment.

20 Q. What did you think the sound was? Serbian equipment? And why did

21 you think that?

22 A. This was a realisation of the Serbian threats that if we were

23 attacked by NATO forces, we would retaliate. So we had every reason to be

24 afraid and to think that these were Serbian forces, because they had

25 prepared us for it and made us aware in advance.

Page 792

1 Q. Did you later see what the sound was?

2 A. Later we saw the source of the sound with our own eyes, and we saw

3 the Serbian forces coming between our village and Celina, with heavy

4 weapons.

5 Q. Can you describe what did you see?

6 A. At that moment I saw on the horizon, I saw two tanks, a Praga, two

7 military trucks, two Pinzgauers, and infantry marching after the tanks.

8 Q. Mr. Elshani, I'm going to show you what has been marked for

9 identification as Prosecution reference number K2765.

10 JUDGE MAY: Does it have an exhibit number? Ms. Romano, we'll

11 need to know what those various vehicles that were referred to by names

12 which weren't translated are.

13 MS. ROMANO: What I have, it's four pages with photographs of

14 military equipment, and I think that what we decided before was that we

15 are going to show --

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, I know you're going to do that, but if you have

17 untranslated words, it's difficult for the Chamber to follow.

18 MS. ROMANO: I don't have untranslated -- I'm not following.

19 JUDGE MAY: Did you not hear what the witness said? He referred

20 to a Praga.

21 MS. ROMANO: I will ask him to show on the map what he referred

22 to.

23 JUDGE MAY: What is it? What is a Praga?

24 MS. ROMANO: I will ask him later.

25 JUDGE MAY: Do you not know?

Page 793

1 MS. ROMANO: That's a matter we will bring in evidence to clarify

2 when we show the photos.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 17.

4 MS. ROMANO: They are photos numbered from 1 to 15.

5 Q. I would like, Mr. Elshani, if you are able, to identify them.

6 Mr. Elshani, can you look at the photos there on the ELMO.

7 MS. ROMANO: Mr. Usher, can you please let the witness look at the


9 A. I can see them, and I can identify a Praga, which is number 4.

10 MS. ROMANO: Just a second. Can you show him the colour photo,

11 please.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would be easier to identify in

13 colour. Number 4 is a Praga.


15 Q. How many Pragas did you see?

16 A. One.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, perhaps you can assist with this. It

18 appears counsel is not following. We are at some stage going to need to

19 have an English description of these various vehicles. At the moment,

20 we've got a photograph. We've got nothing on the record as to what they

21 are.

22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I think Ms. Romano is entirely correct. I

23 entirely understand what she was doing and I think, if I may say so, she

24 was doing it correctly to respect the --

25 JUDGE MAY: She wasn't doing it so that the Court could follow.

Page 794

1 So therefore, it was not correct. If she would follow and listen to what

2 the Court is saying, we'll all get on much better.

3 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I'm going to defend Ms. Romano

4 because, in my respectful submission, she was behaving with complete

5 propriety.

6 What we laid before you this morning, in the hope that it might be

7 admitted or agreed by the accused, was photographs of army vehicles,

8 together with a recognition guide which indeed uses the name, number 4,

9 "Praga." Now, it may in due course be possible for a military expert to

10 describe that vehicle in some other way. For my part, I can't describe

11 it. It's described by this witness and maybe others as a Praga. Praga is

12 what it is. And what Ms. Romano is doing, and quite properly, is to ask

13 the witness to look at photographs, to attach photographs to the

14 descriptions with which he is familiar, and I hope that that will be a

15 proper way and a convenient way to proceed.

16 As the Court has correctly said, preserving the accused's right to

17 admit nothing if he so chooses, which appears to be his approach, we will

18 produce in evidence from an appropriate witness an account of how the

19 names on the guide attach to the vehicles, and I'd ask that the --

20 JUDGE MAY: You will need, in due course, a description in English

21 of what these various vehicles are, and perhaps you could get that for

22 us.

23 MR. NICE: Certainly.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's go on.

25 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, I'm sorry if I didn't make myself

Page 795

1 clear.

2 Q. So I think if we can proceed. Mr. Elshani, if we can continue and

3 look at the photographs and identify if you can and indicate the ones you

4 saw at that day.

5 A. Two tanks, number 6 in the photograph. I repeat: Two tanks,

6 number 6 in the photograph.

7 Q. Is there any -- any other vehicle?

8 A. Two Pinzgauer, number 7. I don't see here photographs of vehicles

9 belonging to the Serbian army. Otherwise, there were various vehicles.

10 They were called Deutz, were used for military purposes. But

11 unfortunately, they're not on these photographs.

12 Q. That's not a problem, Mr. Elshani. Just mention the name or a

13 description of the vehicle if they're not in the photos. Mr. Elshani, do

14 you remember any other vehicles or cars or equipment that were there at

15 that time?

16 A. Besides the vehicles that I described, I didn't see any other

17 vehicles that day.

18 Q. After you heard the noise and saw the military vehicles on the

19 hill, what did you do?

20 A. At that moment, I and my family and the refugees who were with me,

21 we hurried to gather some things to take with us and, with a tractor, our

22 concern was to flee to a safe place outside the village as soon as

23 possible.

24 Q. So what time was it when you and your family left?

25 A. About 6.00 in the morning. Around then.

Page 796

1 Q. And can you describe your family?

2 A. By "family" you mean my immediate family or my more extended

3 family?

4 Q. Immediate family.

5 A. If you mean on that day, those when we fled, those who were with

6 me?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. There was my son Musa Elshani; my daughter-in-law, Musa's wife,

9 Myrvete Elshani; my wife Mereme Elshani; also Xhafer Elshani, with his

10 family who were refugees from Gecaj; Hydajeti from Drenovci, who was also

11 a refugee with us.

12 Q. So Mr. Elshani, apart from your family, were there other people

13 that left with you?

14 A. All the villagers left the village at the same time and went to

15 safer places.

16 Q. And where did you go?

17 A. Well, we went -- I would like to make a correction, because I

18 remained in the village but my family went outside the village. And I

19 remained behind, but all my family went away with the other villagers.

20 And here I'm correcting myself in case we get on the wrong track. And the

21 whole village went to a village called the village -- to find a safer

22 place, the place called The Spring of Cila.

23 Q. So you sent your family away, and you stayed at your home?

24 A. I stayed in my own home with my two brothers.

25 Q. And why did you send your family away?

Page 797

1 A. I sent my family away for their safety, in case they were burnt or

2 massacred, because we didn't know what would happen from that moment on.

3 Q. Mr. Elshani, after they left and you stayed at home, what did

4 you -- what did you see? What did happen?

5 A. After we remained behind at home, Serbian forces -- Serbian forces

6 moved very slowly.

7 Q. When you say "Serbian forces," can you be more clear what you're

8 referring to?

9 A. Well, it's what I said before. Two tanks, a Praga, two Pinzgauer,

10 two Deutz. These were the Serbian forces that came up to our village.

11 And I described earlier that Nagafc and Celina are not more than 600

12 metres apart, and these forces were between the two villages. It seemed

13 to me that -- that they were forces. How else to describe them? Of

14 course military forces.

15 Q. Were they approaching your village? Where are they coming from?

16 A. They came from the direction of Rahovec, on a rural road which was

17 called The Field of Paskidol, and they came along this -- this byroad.

18 Q. And did you see them, what they are doing? Did you see them doing

19 or did you hear anything?

20 A. As I said before, because our village is in a valley, the troops

21 that came in our direction appeared on the horizon, and with my own eyes,

22 from my window, I saw them, but I wasn't able to identify them. Because

23 if you see them in a photograph, you see them on the horizon but you

24 couldn't see their uniforms. They were about 300 or 400 metres from my

25 house.

Page 798

1 Q. And when they approaching your village, the tanks and the Pragas,

2 were they doing anything? Were they firing?

3 A. For the moment, no. They stayed for a long time between the

4 village of Nagafc and the village of Celina. Meanwhile, they set off

5 towards Celina and entered Celina.

6 Q. What did they do in Celina?

7 A. Gunshots from various kinds of weapons were heard from Celina, but

8 in the meantime, Prestovc and Hoca e Vogel started burning, but you could

9 only see the smoke and flame from them. But when they started the

10 operation in Celina, this smoke from Celina came to our village. And of

11 course, the burning went on and there was no stopping the gunfire, and

12 there was a panic such as you can't describe.

13 Q. Right now you're referring to your village. Right now you're in

14 Nagafc. So they arrived in Nagafc, and they start shooting and burning

15 also Nagafc.

16 JUDGE MAY: Just let the witness tell the story. Let the witness

17 tell the story. They started in Celina; is that right?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree.

19 JUDGE MAY: Then where did the Serb forces go?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At about 1400 hours, they came from

21 Celina. The same troops came to Nagafc. And we are only divided from

22 Celina by one hill, and I could see from my home, because I have a

23 two-storey house with a cellar, and from the second floor I saw the Praga

24 and the tank in front, at about 2.00 in the afternoon. Until 2.00 in the

25 afternoon, they were burning Celina, and we saw the smoke and heard the

Page 799

1 gunshots, but we haven't got a witness to say what happened in Celina.


3 Q. So you were at the house at that moment?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did you have anybody else with you at that moment?

6 A. I was with my two brothers, Ismail and Qerim. As I mentioned

7 before, two brothers older than me. And when I saw the troops heading for

8 Nagafc, they started to fire from the Praga, and I saw two shots that hit

9 the roof of my neighbour. These were the first shots fired on Nagafc.

10 And the second, and the second shell fell on my brother's house. And then

11 the third, on the house of a neighbour. And then they started

12 uninterrupted firing, which you couldn't follow. And at that moment,

13 together with my two brothers, I took refuge in my cellar.

14 Q. And what happened next?

15 A. The firing started and we couldn't see anything from the cellar

16 where we were. We just heard the firing. But after round about one hour,

17 the firing stopped, and I suggested to my brothers that we should go

18 out -- we should leave the cellar, otherwise we might get burned inside,

19 because we could see surrounding villages being burned, and we didn't

20 expect any better for ourselves. So we got out of the cellar, and I tried

21 to take shelter in my yard and my brothers went to their homes.

22 Q. What happened to you after that, when you were taking shelter in

23 your yard?

24 A. I saw everything burning around me. I thought that my house too

25 was in flames. I heard voices of soldiers or policemen. I wasn't able to

Page 800

1 identify them because I couldn't see them, but I heard their voices

2 clearly, because I speak Serbian too. And I heard them talking among

3 themselves, and I heard an officer ordering them, "Go back. Burn that

4 house." I don't know which house they meant.

5 Q. And what did you do after that?

6 A. I stayed in the same place where I was. There was nothing I could

7 do.

8 Q. And did you see the other villagers? Where were the other

9 villagers?

10 A. The other villagers, together with my family, had all gone to the

11 place called the Spring of Cilave, and there they can take refuge.

12 Q. And what happened to your brothers?

13 A. Nothing happened to either me or my brothers that day. But under

14 circumstances I can't describe, they didn't enter my house, but they

15 burned the houses round about, but my house was left untouched,

16 accidentally.

17 Q. And did you and your brothers stay outside or did you return to

18 your house?

19 A. To describe this event, besides the flames and the firing, we just

20 didn't dare move. But later, the firing started and smoke started coming

21 out of my neighbour's house. And later, we all joined together to put out

22 the fire in the houses of our neighbours. And meanwhile, help came, and

23 two lads, the late -- one was Musa Elshani, and they helped us to put out

24 the fire in our neighbour's house, this fire that had been lit by Serbian

25 forces. And the gunshots went away from our neighbourhood, further away.

Page 801

1 Q. And did you return to your home after that?

2 A. After that, this was at about half past 4.00 in the afternoon when

3 these two lads told us that the Serbian troops had left the village and

4 headed towards Randobrava, on the road, in that direction.

5 Q. Mr. Elshani, what happened the next day, on the 26th of March?

6 A. That night, my brothers and I decided to stay at home, and the

7 next day we joined the crowd gathered together. And at 3.00 in the

8 morning, we left the home and went to our families at the Spring of

9 Cilave.

10 Q. How many people were there?

11 A. I would say that there may well have been more than 20.000,

12 because all the villages roundabout, Krusha e Mahde, Nagafc, Hoca e Vogel,

13 Celina, from Retia, Opterusa, Zocishte, Drenovc, Randobrava, and all these

14 villages, they had come to this one place as the safest for the moment.

15 And there were people from Retia as refugees there too.

16 Q. Did you find your family there?

17 A. Yes, I found them.

18 Q. How long did you remain there for?

19 A. At that place of refuge - how shall we call it? - we stayed until

20 about 9.00.

21 Q. And could you hear or see anything from that place outside?

22 A. After 9.00, we heard gunshots from lighter weapons, on all sides.

23 We were surrounded. We didn't know this. And panic took hold of the

24 population, wondering what to do.

25 Q. Mr. Elshani, when you refer to "lighter weapons," can you be more

Page 802

1 specific? Can you describe what you're referring to?

2 A. I would say -- I've completed my military service, and I would say

3 revolvers, rifles, automatics, Kalashnikovs. These are what are called

4 lighter weapons.

5 Q. And did you see where the shooting was coming from?

6 A. The shots were coming from all sides, but we later, when we had

7 some kind of view, we saw that Serbian troops were firing into the air

8 with automatic rifles and were waving them, and we understood from this

9 that we were caught in -- we were surrounded.

10 Q. Did you see the people who were shooting at you?

11 A. They weren't firing at us at the moment, but they were firing into

12 the air.

13 Q. And did you see the people doing that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What were they wearing?

16 A. How to describe it? The standard uniform that the army wear, that

17 Serbian troops wear, of the military kind, with camouflage: green, brown

18 mixed. Camouflage. A camouflage uniform.

19 Q. Mr. Elshani, again, I'm going to show you what has been marked for

20 identification as K2766.

21 MS. ROMANO: And maybe we can have an exhibit number.

22 Q. And this document is one page and shows a number of uniforms,

23 police and military uniforms. Mr. Elshani, you can see several photos

24 here. Are you able to show and to tell the Court if you identify any of

25 the photos as similar to the uniform you have just described?

Page 803

1 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. Prosecution Exhibit 18.

2 A. Uniform number 9 was the Serbian military uniform, but at the same

3 time, police forces, meanwhile, I saw with the same kind of uniform, with

4 the inscription "milicija," or "police," on the arm.

5 Q. Can you see --

6 A. But also number 6 -- uniform number 9 is the military uniform that

7 I can see, and number 6 is the police uniform.

8 Q. You saw both uniforms at that time?

9 A. That day, I only saw military uniforms, for the moment.

10 Q. So just to clarify, Mr. Elshani: When you were telling the Court

11 about the uniforms of the people you saw shooting at the air, the photos

12 that you saw on the board, which ones refer to that uniform? Just the one

13 you saw at that time.

14 A. Photograph number 9.

15 Q. Thank you. So what did happen after that?

16 A. After panic gripped the population, they didn't know what they

17 were doing any more. We heard from Halit Gashi, a fellow villager of

18 mine, that Zylfi Gashi, from Hoca e Vogel, had contacted a Serbian

19 officer, and he had told him that we must set off for Prizren and go to

20 Albania. And then there was a movement started among the population.

21 Q. Mr. Elshani, when you say "Serbian officer," the one who told you,

22 can you describe what he was wearing?

23 A. I didn't see the Serbian officer, but I was told by people who had

24 seen him - that's Halit Gashi - that Halit Gashi told me that Zylfi Gashi

25 had contacted the Serbian officer and -- because there were a lot of us.

Page 804

1 There were 20.000 of us there. And the army was beyond us, surrounding

2 us. They weren't among the population, but on the other side. And I

3 didn't see the officer at that time.

4 Q. And where did you go after that?

5 A. The crowd of people set off from Prroni i Cilave and got to the

6 road that goes from Rahovec to Prizren, and the convoy -- at the head of

7 the convoy, when we got to the road, we saw other troops that were

8 positioned with mortars in a state of readiness.

9 Q. Where was that positioned?

10 A. This was at the end of a little road from Prroni i Cilave to

11 Nagafc, and it's another road from Krusa to Prizren. And when the convoy

12 reached the road, the Serbian forces changed the direction, didn't let

13 them -- allow them to go on to Prizren but concentrated them in Nagafc.

14 Didn't allow them to go to Celina or Hoca e Vogel or anywhere but they

15 concentrated all of them in our village of Nagafc.

16 Q. So just to clarify, Mr. Elshani, what you're saying is that they

17 guide you, and they didn't allow you to go anywhere but to come back to

18 your village?

19 A. To make it clear, they -- otherwise they might have allowed us to

20 go to their own villages, to Krusha e Mahde, but people had to go in the

21 opposite direction. They might have gone to their own village of Krusha e

22 Mahde, which is only three kilometres away, but they made us all go to

23 Nagafc, and they put us, all of us, in Nagafc and didn't allow us to go to

24 any other villages. So that entire population that came from other

25 villages, they were not allowed to go to their own villages but they had

Page 805

1 to stay in Nagafc.

2 Q. And who did not allow you to go anywhere but back to your

3 village?

4 A. Of course the Serbian troops that -- that had taken us out of that

5 place known as Prroni i Cilave.

6 Q. After you arrived in Nagafc back to your village, what happened?

7 A. After we arrived in Nagafc, this entire population that had been

8 taking shelter at Prroni i Cilave, after a time we saw a lot of smoke,

9 because the area where we lived is not flat but has a lot of hills, and we

10 saw a lot of smoke rising from where the population had been, and they had

11 burnt all the tractors and equipment and possessions that had been up

12 there. The troops did this.

13 Q. For how long did you stay in Nagafc?

14 A. On that day when they sent us to Nagafc, that was -- that was

15 Friday, 27th of March. And we stayed in Nagafc until Friday, 2nd of

16 April. That's one week.

17 Q. On the 28th of March, Mr. Elshani, is the Muslim holiday. Did you

18 hear anything that day, or did you see anything at that day?

19 A. Just to make it clear, me and my brother, we had been sheltering

20 600 people from other villages. And that was the festival of Bajram, and

21 we ate just what we had. And we heard some gunshots from light weapons,

22 and people started to panic.

23 Q. Did you see from where the fire was coming?

24 A. We didn't see where the gunshots came from, but we heard them

25 coming from the southern part of the village. But because the population

Page 806

1 were scared, they appointed four people as a kind of delegation to go to

2 see what was happening, because the people were indeed very frightened and

3 were in a quandary what to do.

4 Q. And what did they do?

5 A. My brother and I and two others went to the village bridge and

6 then -- and then I was told that there was a massacre at Gani Gashi's

7 house, and there was a panic at that time. And my brother and I went

8 through the houses of another neighbourhood, watching, and when we went to

9 the house of Ismail Gashi, Ismail Gashi's son told me that some Serbian

10 troops had deserted and that those gunshots had not been a massacre, and

11 so we went back.

12 Q. So what did you see there was not a massacre. What was that?

13 A. When we went back from the positions where he had been, we heard

14 gunshots again, and these gunshots were in the yard of Gani Gashi. And my

15 brother and I decided that the best thing to do would be to gather the

16 entire population at the school, because we -- because we didn't know what

17 would happen.

18 Q. So did you do that? Did you gather all the population in the

19 school?

20 A. I didn't hear. There were only two -- there were two policemen

21 appeared from a stream, and they said, "You don't shoot at us, and we

22 won't shoot at you."

23 Q. Where did the police appear? Where were you at that time?

24 A. I saw the police for the first time at the house of Cerkim Gashi,

25 near a stream, and they were policemen wearing military uniforms with the

Page 807

1 inscription "Milicija" and with red stripes, red and white stripes on

2 their arm -- arms, and they said, "Don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot

3 at you." And I said to the police, "Who is the -- who is the chief?" In

4 a nearby courtyard, there were 600 or 700 people who had been brought out

5 of their houses and looting had begun.

6 Q. Mr. Elshani, they said, "Don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot at

7 you." Were you armed at the time? Was anybody in your group armed?

8 A. None of us were armed at all. We had our hands in our pockets.

9 Q. Can you describe what happened next?

10 A. And this person said to me -- when he asked -- I asked him, "Who

11 is the main one here?" the person showed with his hand and pointed out the

12 chief one in the yard and went there -- I heard that in Krusa Mala and

13 Celina people had got together and collected some money which they gave to

14 the Serb troops in order to help them get to some safe place. And these

15 refugees who were concentrated in Nagafc, they are from Krusa, some from

16 Hoca e Vogel. They took this initiative.

17 Q. Mr. Elshani, I'll interrupt you just to come back to the point

18 where you said that they were collecting -- all the villagers that were

19 with you were collecting money. What were they going to do with the

20 money?

21 A. They thought to give this money to the Serb troops to have it

22 easier to run away, to escape the worst evil, they thought.

23 Q. Why did you think that if you give money to the Serb troops, they

24 would let you go?

25 A. Because we heard that this is -- this was what the other villages

Page 808

1 did, Celina and Krusa Mala. They did this thing. We heard from some

2 people that they did this. I don't know how true that was. I'm not sure

3 of that. But this was the rumour that we heard. And someone from Krusa,

4 someone from Celina took this initiative to collect the money themselves.

5 Q. Mr. Elshani, did you end up giving the money to the troops, to the

6 police troops?

7 A. Yes. The police got the money.

8 Q. And what did they do after they got the money?

9 JUDGE MAY: Just before we get there, who gave the police the

10 money?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me to continue to the

12 end to explain and not interrupt me, sir, I'd like to --

13 JUDGE MAY: No, I'm afraid not. We have to understand what you're

14 saying, and we can't understand it if you go on.

15 Now, can you tell us who was it who gave you the money?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The money was given by old man Gashi

17 from Celina, 24.000 Deutschmarks, and Milazim Krasniqi from Hoca e Vogel,

18 12.000 Deutschmarks they gave to the police. But not in my presence.

19 Please get it right: I couldn't see it because I had to stay in a house.

20 I was afraid to leave the house for two hours. Not only me but all the

21 other people, because troops told us -- the Serb troops told us, "Stay

22 there. If you leave the house for two hours, we will kill you." So we

23 couldn't leave the house. But when I returned to my house, people told

24 me, "We gave the money to the police, both of us." And I know both these

25 two people.

Page 809

1 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now for half an hour and go

2 on then.

3 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.


7 Q. Mr. Elshani, you told the Court --

8 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.


10 Q. Mr. Elshani, you told the Court --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Counsel.


13 Q. Mr. Elshani, you told the Court that you stayed in Nagafc from

14 Friday, March 27th until Friday, 2nd of April, so I would like to draw

15 your attention to the night between the 1st and the 2nd of April.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were you at home?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you awakened from your sleep?

20 A. I was woken by two loud detonations during the night between the

21 Thursday and Friday, at about 1.20 in the morning. At that time, I heard

22 the gunshots.

23 Q. So what was the sound that you heard?

24 A. We heard such sound firing that my wife and I, in our bed, in half

25 an hour we didn't dare go out of the room.

Page 810

1 Q. So what did you do?

2 A. I heard shouting from all around, from the entire village, but

3 mostly from near in my yard, where I saw that there were gathered together

4 the late Hysni Elshani and his family, and one was wounded in the head.

5 And then I went to my other brother, Qerim, and there I saw Selime [phoen]

6 Gashi, from Krusha e Madhe. And there, there was wounded Valentine, aged

7 9, whose leg was cut off, and who said to me, "Uncle Fehim, I cannot carry

8 this child [as interpreted]." So I carried her and took her to the

9 doctor, to stop the blood.

10 Q. Mr. Elshani, the incident you are referring to, when did it

11 happen?

12 A. On Friday, 2nd of April, 1999, at 1.20 in the morning.

13 Q. So you were at home at that time?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you were asleep?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what happened after? You said you woke up with a sound.

18 A. I was woken up by two detonations, one after another, very

19 powerful ones, and they woke me from my sleep.

20 Q. Mr. Elshani, first you said you heard gunfire. Now you said you

21 heard detonations. What did you hear?

22 A. This was the detonation of some explosive material. It was a

23 powerful explosion, as if from an airplane. It was a blast.

24 Q. So what did you do after you heard this blast?

25 A. As I said before --

Page 811

1 MS. ROMANO: I'm not having translation.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Can we have the translation, please.

3 A. I couldn't leave my room, because everything was shattering in my

4 room: the windows, every glass, every piece of glass that was in my home.


6 Q. So what did you do?

7 A. Then I left my home and I heard noises, loud noises from

8 everywhere. I told you: For the moment, I saw the mother, the sister,

9 the sister-in-law, Fushnaja, who had come near him, and were very sad

10 because he was gravely wounded, injured. They were crying over his head.

11 Q. Was anyone killed or injured?

12 A. At this moment, in my yard, I saw seven dead bodies and many other

13 injured. I saw with my own eyes. But in my brother's home, there were

14 also two other dead people, and six members of my brother's family were

15 injured.

16 Q. Did you know -- do you know what caused the death or what caused

17 them to be injured?

18 A. From that powerful blast, I told you earlier, which inflicted many

19 injured and dead people.

20 Q. And what did it do to the injured -- what happened to the injured

21 people?

22 A. Even though their number was great, with great difficulties, I

23 managed to find a car, a vehicle, and loaded on top of it seven injured

24 people, sometime between 3.00 in the morning, and I drove them to Prizren

25 hospital.

Page 812

1 Q. And do you know what caused the detonation, what caused the

2 blast? Did you see where this came from?

3 A. The cause of the blast, in my mind, was - and I don't think there

4 is any need for comment - that as I said, they herded together a large

5 number of people in a small village, over 20.000 people. The aim of the

6 Serbs was clear beforehand; they wanted to commit genocide, to exterminate

7 the population.

8 Q. Mr. Elshani --

9 A. Excuse me?

10 Q. I just -- I know that was in your mind, but I wanted to know what

11 you saw, what you hear at that time. Did you see what caused the -- what

12 caused the blast?

13 A. The blast came from the Serb forces.

14 Q. Did you see that?

15 A. I couldn't see it because I was sleeping. But it is well known,

16 and it is well known that in there were 20.000 people, sheltering in the

17 village.

18 JUDGE MAY: Can you just deal with what you saw or heard

19 yourself.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.


22 Q. Mr. Elshani, you were at home at that time. You were inside your

23 home. Is it correct?

24 A. I have sworn to say only what I saw and what I have experienced.

25 Q. That's fine, Mr. Elshani. So you heard a blast. That's what you

Page 813

1 said. It's correct?

2 A. Yes. Not one but two explosions I heard.

3 Q. You didn't -- did you see what caused the blast? Did you see

4 where the blast come from?

5 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I think the witness has dealt with this

6 subject. I mean, he's given various descriptions, and I have no need to

7 say any more.

8 JUDGE MAY: I think it's right. The witness has given the best

9 account he could.

10 MS. ROMANO: I just -- Your Honour, if you permit, I just want to

11 just propose one more question that's the final one to just make it very

12 clear as we were saying what he saw and he heard. So I just want to ask

13 the witness if he did see or not.

14 JUDGE MAY: One question.

15 MS. ROMANO: One question. Thank you.

16 Q. Mr. Elshani, where you were in the house and after you heard the

17 blast, did you see anything? Did you see where the blast came from?

18 A. I saw the traces left behind by the explosion, but actual

19 explosion I didn't say -- I didn't see because I was asleep, but I saw the

20 effects.

21 Q. What kind of traces did you see?

22 A. I have to describe it. In my yard, there were holes from 30

23 centimetres to 1 metre deep. Not just in one place but throughout the

24 yard and in the yards of my brothers too. So it was as if my yard had

25 been ploughed up by shells. And these shells also killed these people,

Page 814

1 and they wounded people. So for -- these shells killed people, and I am a

2 witness.

3 Q. Mr. Elshani, did you see anything else or just the craters, just

4 the holes?

5 A. Besides the craters, there were seven dead people in my yard, two

6 in my brother's. So nine dead people in two houses.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Elshani. After you took some people to the

8 hospital, did you come back to your town? Did you come back to Nagafc?

9 A. After I took the wounded to the hospital where -- and

10 unfortunately, my brother's nephew died, and they placed him in the

11 morgue. Then I returned back to Nagafc.

12 Q. And what happened after you came back to Nagafc?

13 A. Shortly before we arrived at Nagafc, when we got to Krusha e

14 Mahde, I found the crowd of people who had set off fleeing, leaving the

15 village for Albania.

16 Q. And where did you go?

17 A. I remained in Krusha e Mahde and tried to -- and tried to organise

18 the bringing -- the wounded to be brought to Prizren, but at that point,

19 the car I had obtained was taken from me and I was stuck without a car,

20 and I was stuck in Krusha e Mahde. And --

21 Q. Mr. Elshani, who did take your car?

22 A. It wasn't my car. I took it from somebody from Krusha e Mahde to

23 take the wounded to the hospital. And when I returned to Krusa, he took

24 his own car back and I was left without a car.

25 Q. After you came back to Nagafc, what happened to you?

Page 815

1 A. I took my wife and went back to Nagafc, and when I returned to

2 Nagafc and then I saw seven dead people in my yard and two dead people in

3 my brother's yard, and the bodies had been left unburied.

4 Q. And did you go back to your house?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And how was the situation at that time in Nagafc? It was calm; it

7 was safe?

8 A. There was no kind of security at all. But when I returned to my

9 home, there was the family of Ukshin Hoti, the father, mother, in my

10 cellar, and I found them there. And they had left behind because they

11 were ill, and they were unable to flee. I also found a woman in my

12 brother's house, and she, too, was ill.

13 Q. Mr. Elshani, during all the time, did you see again any police or

14 soldiers?

15 A. At about 10.00 in the morning, sometime between 9.00 and 10.00, I

16 heard a noise, and I went up my brother's stairs, and I saw two tanks

17 coming from Rahovec, and they entered the village. Then the noise came up

18 to my house, and then I -- my wife and I took shelter in the cellar for

19 security.

20 Q. And what happened after you took shelter in your basement, in your

21 cellar?

22 A. We couldn't see anything after we went into the cellar, but we

23 heard gunshots for about half an hour. And after half an hour, we

24 heard -- we heard some noise above our cellar. And people came into our

25 cellar where the parents of Ukshin Hoti were.

Page 816

1 Q. What kind of people? Can you describe who came?

2 A. At that moment when they entered the cellar, I couldn't see them

3 because I was in a separate part of the cellar. But they talked to Ukshin

4 Hoti's father and asked whose this house -- who this house belonged to and

5 where the head of the house was, and they said that this is Fehim

6 Elshani's house and he had gone out to look after his livestock.

7 Q. In which language they were speaking?

8 A. They were speaking Serbian.

9 Q. Do you understand Serbian language?

10 A. I understand Serbian.

11 Q. Did you hear what they were saying?

12 A. I wasn't really able to identify the conversation, but one of them

13 came -- they came out of the cellar where these two were. And meanwhile,

14 the other one who was in the cellar last came out. And when he -- and

15 when he went, I went out with my wife too.

16 Q. Mr. Elshani, at that point, could you see them?

17 A. You mean those people who were in the cellar?

18 Q. Yes. The people who entered the cellar.

19 A. The second group that came in the cellar, the first one, there was

20 a tall, thin person with a bandanna around his head, and he entered the

21 cellar where everything was destroyed. And when he saw five of us in

22 there, he started insulting us in Serbian, saying, "Fuck your Albanian

23 mothers. Now I will cut your throats like sheep."

24 Q. Mr. Elshani, do you remember how this person -- what kind of

25 clothes this person was wearing?

Page 817

1 A. This person was wearing a police uniform.

2 Q. Can you tell what colour?

3 A. Camouflage, green and brown, like the Serbian police wear.

4 Q. What did he do after?

5 A. After all these insults, he took the knife from his belt and came

6 up to massacre me, starting with me and going on to the others, all of

7 them: my wife, Mereme, Ukshin's sister, mother, and father.

8 Q. And what happened after that?

9 A. Perhaps every disaster there are exceptions, because nothing worse

10 happened to us, and at that moment there was a band of police entered the

11 door.

12 Q. And why were you safe? Why nothing happened to you?

13 A. At that moment, when he was near me with the knife, the other

14 policeman came to the door and called him by name, and called to me,

15 saying, "Uncle Fehim, do you know me?"

16 Q. And did you know that person?

17 A. I, at that moment, didn't recognise him, but he asked me, "Did you

18 work with Gordana and Tika?" And I said yes. And then he said, "I am one

19 of them." And then he said to me, "I recognise you."

20 Q. In what language was he talking to you?

21 A. He was speaking in Serbian.

22 Q. What happened after?

23 A. Another one came in, a policeman, and he too said to me - he

24 called me Uncle Fehim - "Do you know me?" I answered him, "Yes, I

25 recognise you."

Page 818

1 Q. So after -- did they do anything to you? What happened to you

2 after that, Mr. Elshani?

3 A. Seeing this policeman that had come up to me with a knife, he then

4 withdrew and put his knife back in his belt, and the three left the cellar

5 together.

6 Q. And did you leave the cellar as well?

7 A. I remained in the cellar, and then another policeman came and took

8 me out of the cellar to identify the victims who were in my yard and in my

9 brother's yard.

10 Q. And what happened next?

11 A. He said, regarding these victims, "You asked for NATO and now look

12 what NATO has done." And I could only identify two of these victims, not

13 the others.

14 Q. Did the police officer say anything else to you?

15 A. Then I acted as their interpreter. They were asked details about

16 the people who were left in the village, the sick woman in my brother's

17 house, and there was also a sick old man in a neighbour's house, and they

18 wanted me to communicate with them to get their personal details, and they

19 used me as an interpreter to gather this information.

20 Q. Mr. Elshani, did there come a time when you left Nagafc?

21 A. Meanwhile, on this critical day - this is Friday, 2nd of April - I

22 had Serbian troops in my yard, in coats and in uniforms, and they filmed

23 the corpses and the damage. And among them there was someone from the

24 state security called Agim Isaku, and he later said to me, "You had better

25 get out of here, because otherwise, if you're found here tomorrow, you

Page 819

1 will be in for it."

2 Q. Mr. Elshani, how did you know this person?

3 A. I knew this person from before, because he comes from this

4 municipality, and he used to work in state security in Rahovec.

5 Q. Was he wearing --

6 A. He is a Roman Gypsy.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

8 A. No. He was wearing plain clothes.

9 Q. And he said to you to leave. Why did he say this to you?

10 A. No doubt he knew that the next day would be worse than that day,

11 and for that reason, he told me to leave my village, for the sake of my

12 own safety and of the other people who were there.

13 Q. And did you leave your village?

14 A. On the next day, I took a tractor. I loaded on it some clothes,

15 my wife, and then we set out for Krusha e Madhe. I took also the mother,

16 the father -- I left -- sorry. I left in my home the father, the sister,

17 and the mother of Ukshin Hoti, and then we all went to Prizren, that is,

18 on the 3rd of April. It was Saturday.

19 Q. And from Prizren, where did you go?

20 A. In Prizren, I stayed at a brother-in-law of mine for two weeks,

21 because I had to take care of the injured and bury the late Hysni, because

22 I left him in the hospital, in the morgue.

23 Q. Mr. Elshani, did you go -- did you walk during all this time? How

24 did you go to Prizren and then further on?

25 A. No. I said I took -- I borrowed a tractor and I put some clothes,

Page 820

1 some covers and coverlets, because we don't know where we would go. Some

2 basic things. And then by tractor I went to Prizren.

3 Q. And did you see more people along the way?

4 A. I didn't see anyone along the way, with the exception of some

5 police troops that were moving. I didn't see anyone else. No one. I

6 didn't see anyone.

7 Q. And from Prizren, did you go to where? Where did you go after

8 Prizren?

9 A. From Prizren, after the injured were released from hospital, I

10 took all of them. I mounted them on my tractor and then I drove them to

11 Albania.

12 Q. Mr. Elshani, before crossing the border with Albania, what

13 happened?

14 A. Before we crossed the border to Albania -- the distance from

15 Prizren to the Albanian border is over 15 kilometres, and somewhere around

16 the seventh or eighth kilometre from Prizren, in the vicinity of Zhur

17 village, two soldiers appeared on the road. They stopped me. I was

18 driving the tractor with the injured people and the people who were

19 accompanying the injured people. And they asked me, "Bring out all the

20 money you have in your pocket."

21 Q. Did they wear a uniform?

22 A. They were dressed in military uniform.

23 Q. So what happened after that? Did you continue?

24 A. I told them, "I don't have any money, because we are coming from

25 the hospital, and I'm carrying some injured people. We are going to

Page 821

1 Albania." They let me continue on my way.

2 Q. And where did you go after?

3 A. When I -- when we arrived in Zhur village, we saw a policeman and

4 a soldier there. They stopped me. They asked me to show them my

5 passport. I showed it to them. Then the police told me, "Go on.

6 Continue your trip to Albania," but warned me not to move outside the main

7 road, the asphalt road, because all the ground was planted with mine.

8 Q. He asked to see your document. Did you have to give the document

9 as well?

10 A. At that moment, they did not take my identity card away. They

11 returned it back to me. And then I continued the trip to Vermica, to the

12 border.

13 Q. And was there any time that you had to give your passport or your

14 document, any of your documents?

15 A. When we arrived on the border belt, in the border, actually, we

16 tried to cross the border with our tractor to Albania, but the police

17 chief at the customs told us that, "I have orders from Prizren not to

18 allow any more people to cross the border to Albania."

19 Q. Mr. Elshani, I asked you if at any time you had to give your

20 documents.

21 A. Later on, my identity card and my wife's identity card, I handed

22 them over to the police in the border since they enabled us to leave

23 Kosova and enter Albania. But before we left the Kosova territory, they

24 asked me to show them my personal identity card and my wife's, and in my

25 very eyes they threw them away in a place they had collected all the

Page 822

1 personal identity cards of the people who had left for Albania.

2 Q. Then after that, you left for Albania?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Elshani, apart from you, did anybody else -- did you see

5 anybody else that had also to give their documents and ID?

6 A. I saw people before me who were waiting on line in the border zone

7 before me. They passed the border before me. I have seen them when each

8 and every one of them handed over their ID to the policemen. Otherwise,

9 the police wouldn't allow them to cross over without giving their IDs or

10 passport or personal identity card, whatever they had.

11 Q. Did they ask for personal cards, ID? Did they ask for anything

12 else?

13 A. They asked us to show them any personal ID card we had; driving

14 licence, passport, or ID, the registration card of our cars, the licence

15 plates, anything. We wanted -- they wanted us to be stripped of all

16 documents, all identity documents, and leave to Albania then.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Elshani.

18 MS. ROMANO: I don't have any further questions, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

20 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] You said you worked in Orahovac up until 1991.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You also said that you went on strike for political reasons,

25 because you strove for Kosovo Republic.

Page 823

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How long were you on strike for?

3 A. You know. You know better, better than all of us, I think. You

4 know the situation there.

5 Q. I am asking you to answer my question, and my question was: How

6 long were you on strike for?

7 A. My answer is that you are the best person to know how long it

8 lasted, and I won't make any further comments.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Elshani, we'll get on better if you would just

10 answer the question, please, since you know the answer. Can you tell us

11 how long you were on strike for?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1991 it ended, the strike. I was

13 suspended from my job then.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. But before then, how long were you on strike,

15 before you were suspended?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not participate in the

17 strike, but I supported the strikers. And they asked us to sign a

18 statement whether you support the strike or not, whether we are -- we were

19 for the independence of Kosova, whether we recognised the Serb the state.

20 We did not sign the -- we refused to sign the statements. This was why we

21 were driven out of our jobs.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. How long did you not go to work when you started your strike?

24 A. For five days.

25 Q. And after five days, after not having gone to work for five days,

Page 824

1 you eventually went to work and started working; is that right?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What did you do, in fact?

4 A. Please, I don't want to go into these details. I described the

5 situation in my statement, and I have sworn that I will speak the truth,

6 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So I don't want to go -- to

7 divert from the main topic. I want the Bench, please, that the defendant

8 stick only to what I have said in my statement and not deal with things

9 that are not related to it, because I don't know what to say. I've

10 already sworn that I will say the truth and only the truth in my

11 statement.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Elshani, I know it's difficult to give evidence,

13 and it's particularly stressful in the current circumstances, but the

14 accused is entitled to ask you some questions. If he asks you questions

15 which aren't related to your evidence, then of course we will stop him.

16 But you gave evidence about the circumstances in which you came to lose

17 your job, and therefore, he is entitled to ask some questions about it.

18 If you don't know the answer to any question, just say so. But if

19 you can answer, then you should. And if you keep your answers fairly

20 short, we'll get on more quickly.

21 Now, so that we can finish this topic, is this the position: You

22 did not go to work. When you returned, you were asked to sign some sort

23 of declaration. You didn't do so and then you lost your job. Does that

24 summarise what happened?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's how it happened.

Page 825

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we've now dealt with that. We can move

2 on to another topic, please.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm interested in knowing how long

4 he didn't go to work.

5 JUDGE MAY: He's told you: Five days.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You were an employee of the Orahovac municipality; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You are well aware of the rules and regulations relating to labour

10 and applied to all persons employed in Yugoslavia; is that right?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know the regulation according to which if an employee fails

13 to turn up for work for five consecutive days without justification,

14 without being sick or for some other family reason, he loses his right to

15 work, the right to his job?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. You lived in the village of Nogovac, the Orahovac municipality,

18 did you not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How many houses does the village of Nogovac comprise?

21 A. Some over 100 families.

22 Q. So it's about the same size as Celina, is it not?

23 A. Yes. A little bit smaller than Celina.

24 Q. Celina has 100 houses?

25 A. I don't know. Probably.

Page 826

1 Q. Your village is seven kilometres away from Orahovac, if you take

2 the road?

3 A. Yes. Yes. Over seven kilometres.

4 Q. Perhaps eight kilometres would be closer.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you have a local policeman in your village?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How many members of the KLA came from your village?

9 A. I have never dealt with that. I have no information about that.

10 Q. Did you ever see any members of the KLA?

11 A. Later, after I returned from Albania, I did.

12 Q. Did you see them in 1998, in the summer of 1998, for example?

13 A. No. No, I did not.

14 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the interpretation.

15 THE INTERPRETER: "No, I did not."

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Did you hear about something that they did in 1998 in the summer?

18 A. I heard.

19 Q. Can you tell us what you heard?

20 A. I heard that there was a clash in a place called Gecaj, Rahovec,

21 and Bela Crkva.

22 Q. And what else did you hear about that clash?

23 A. I heard that people were killed, innocent people, civilians. They

24 had burned homes. They have killed unarmed civilians. This is what I

25 heard. I didn't see anything.

Page 827












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts. Pages 827 to 837.













Page 838

1 Q. You said that in that year of 1998, people took refuge. They went

2 away from the place where the clash took place between the police and the

3 KLA, and some of them came to your village to take refuge.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You also said that the Serb forces made an announcement according

6 to which they said that the Serbs would take it out on the Albanians if

7 NATO were to attack, would take their revenge on Albanians if NATO were to

8 attack.

9 A. It was not the Serb forces that said that, but the Serb

10 government, through its leaders, through the information media outlets.

11 Not the Serb forces, but their leaders at that time warned of these

12 things, and this is what happened, in fact.

13 Q. And where did you read about this or hear about it? Who did you

14 hear that from, that one of the Serb leaders said they would take their

15 revenge over the Albanians if NATO were to attack Yugoslavia?

16 A. We have followed it through television in Pristina, Belgrade, in

17 programmes that were dictated by you. We heard them through various media

18 outlets, and your press has also written about them. Personally, I

19 haven't read these reports.

20 Q. That means that in the press of Serbia and over the radio and

21 television Serbia, you heard that the Serb government or Serb leaders, or

22 however you like to qualify this, broadcast the fact that they would take

23 their revenge on the Albanians if NATO attacks Yugoslavia; is that it?

24 A. Yes. This is incontestable.

25 Q. You live near Orahovac. Did you know that the KLA did some

Page 839

1 shooting in 1998 near Orahovac? Because you said that you were eight

2 kilometres away from Orahovac. I thought it was seven.

3 A. I declared that I've never had anything to do with KLA, and I

4 don't know anything about their moves. I had no contacts with them.

5 That's why I don't know what and who provoked it, who began this first. I

6 don't know anything.

7 Q. Do you happen to know about the event that took place in May 1998

8 in the immediate vicinity of your village, the village of Nogovac, along

9 the Djakovica-Prizren road, in which the KLA attacked the traffic patrol

10 of the police? Do you know about that or not?

11 A. No, I don't know that.

12 Q. So you don't know about that incident. Do you know about the

13 village of Radosta, which is also near your own village?

14 A. It is not near my village, but it is rather away from it. I don't

15 know anything.

16 Q. How far is Radosta away from your own village?

17 A. Over 16 or 17, something like this, kilometres away.

18 Q. So Radosta is 17 kilometres away from your own village; is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, there's no need to repeat the answers.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Did you hear about the fact that the KLA took over the police

24 station and killed a policeman in the village of Radosta in that summer of

25 1998?

Page 840

1 A. There were no police forces concentrated in Radosta.

2 Q. I didn't ask you about any concentrated forces; I just asked about

3 the police station and one policeman in that police station who was killed

4 by the KLA. Did you hear about that event taking place?

5 A. I am answering you again that in Radosta there was no police

6 station. It did not exist.

7 Q. Do you happen to know that on the 17th of July, 1998, the KLA

8 surrounded and took control of Orahovac?

9 A. I have not seen anything. I cannot say anything since I never

10 dealt with them, I said.

11 Q. Orahovac is the main place there. It is only seven kilometres

12 away from your own village. And on the 17th of July, 1998, it was

13 surrounded and taken control of by the KLA. Do you know about that or

14 not?

15 JUDGE MAY: He's given his answer to that. He doesn't. Now,

16 Mr. Milosevic, in due course, if you -- just a moment. In due course, if

17 you wish, you can call your own evidence about these events, but the

18 witness is saying he doesn't know anything about it.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not going to ask the same

20 question twice.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you know about the four policemen who were killed in Orahovac?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Do you know about the 45 Serbs from Orahovac and the surrounding

25 villages that were kidnapped, abducted, in the summer of 1998?

Page 841

1 A. It seems to me that these are rather provocative questions. I

2 already said, I have never had anything to do with these things. In my

3 statement, I already have explained this. I have declared that I have had

4 nothing to do with KLA, have never cooperated, and don't know anything

5 about it. Please don't provoke me with such questions about which I

6 cannot give an answer.

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it looks as though we're not going to

8 get any further on this line of questioning. As I say, you can call your

9 evidence in due course before us, but there doesn't seem much point going

10 on asking the witness about it. Would you like to move on to another

11 topic.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I will move on to

13 another topic.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. All the events that you talked about happened on the 25th of

16 March, between the 25th of March up until the 2nd of April, the main

17 events?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you happen to know that on the 25th of March, up until the

20 first days of April, it was precisely in that particular area, in that

21 region, which the KLA calls the Patrick Operative Zone, that there was

22 serious heavy fighting there between the JNA and the police, on the one

23 side, and seven brigades of the KLA on the other side which were beaten?

24 A. In which place? Not in our area, there wasn't.

25 Q. It was in your area.

Page 842

1 A. That is not true. It is not true.

2 Q. How far is it between your area or village, or Celina, for

3 example, to the Albanian border, as the crow flies? Is it 15 kilometres

4 in a straight line, would you say? Is that correct, 15 kilometres?

5 A. It is more than that.

6 Q. All right. Well, you can have a look on the map, and you'll see

7 how far it is from the Albanian border to Celina as the crow flies, and

8 you'll see that it is 15 kilometres. So on the 24th of March, NATO

9 attacked Yugoslavia in that border belt, in a zone of 15 kilometres. That

10 was the range of the zone. And it was in that Operative Zone, the Patrick

11 Operative Zone, where the KLA fought the army, and you described that

12 there was a lot of shooting going on. You said that you saw the army, the

13 army that did not shoot at you but kept shooting. Was there anybody else

14 who shot? Did you see any NATO planes? Did you see any units belonging

15 to some other side that did some shooting?

16 A. I don't know what this question is about.

17 JUDGE MAY: Did you see any NATO planes? That's the first

18 question.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw NATO planes after 2nd of

20 April, when I was in Prizren. Then I saw NATO planes.

21 JUDGE MAY: But before then, did you see any?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't see any.

23 JUDGE MAY: The next part of the question was: Did you see any

24 other side - and I take that to be anybody aside from the Serb

25 forces - doing any shooting?

Page 843

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Personally, I did not see Serbian

2 forces shooting, because I was inside and I wasn't involved with any kind

3 of military arsenal. But I was only on the civilian side, and I was not

4 able to see Serbian forces firing, whether at the civilian population or

5 at the Kosovar military forces. I wasn't able to see this.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Very well. All right. But you knew - at least that's what you

8 said - that NATO attacked on the 24th of March, attacked Yugoslavia on the

9 24th of March, and you saw army units on the 25th of March in your region,

10 in your area, which is the border area towards Albania. You did see that;

11 is that right? That's what you said.

12 JUDGE MAY: He's given his evidence about that.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. There were quite a lot of explanations given here and discussions

15 as to something that was called Praga, the Praga facility. You indicated

16 the Praga to us on a photograph. Do you know that this Praga device is an

17 anti-aircraft gun, a self-propelled anti-aircraft gun?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Did you happen to think -- when you saw the army taking up

20 positions in the area, did it -- the area which is just 15 minutes -- 15

21 kilometres, as the crow flies, from the border, did it ever occur to you

22 that the army had positions from NATO, defence positions in respect to

23 NATO?

24 A. I will answer as I can. It is not true that the Albanian border

25 is 15 minutes away. It is more than 45, 47 kilometres to the border with

Page 844

1 Albania at Vermica, and it's certainly not 15 kilometres. It is more than

2 that. We are not near the border strip.

3 Q. Fifty if you take the road. I was speaking as the crow flies, in

4 a straight line. That was the misunderstanding. But it's a fact. It

5 doesn't need to be approved. It is a given fact.

6 At any rate, the army was not attacking civilians, judging by what

7 you said.

8 A. I asked you who caused those casualties. How was those massacres

9 committed? Who committed them? I -- I don't know. How can we say

10 that -- I don't know what to say. What kind of comment can I make to

11 you? I don't know what kind of argument to present that is -- that is

12 clearer than what I said. You know the answer.

13 Q. Well, you provided us with some comments. You said that you

14 didn't see anything but that you just heard voices, the voices of soldiers

15 and policemen. How did you know they were soldiers and policemen if you

16 didn't actually see them?

17 A. I saw them when they came to burn the village. I saw military

18 forces and police forces. And at that moment when they came to take us

19 out from our lands, I saw military forces. I saw them, and how can you

20 say that I did not?

21 Q. I did not say you didn't see it. You said you saw nothing but

22 that you just heard, and that's what I asked you. If you didn't see it,

23 how could you differentiate and distinguish between them?

24 JUDGE MAY: Let's move on. Let's move on.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 845

1 Q. You said that there were about 20.000 of you who had collected

2 there from the surrounding villages, including Nogovac and Celina; is that

3 right?

4 A. That is right.

5 Q. A witness from Celina said that there were 6.000 of you. He said

6 that yesterday. Are you sure that there were 20.000 of you?

7 A. I ask you to be aware of the circumstances. If you weren't there,

8 you don't know the circumstances. There were 6.000 from the territory of

9 Celina. We were not all gathered in one place. We were -- we were beyond

10 the crowd from Celina, and there there were more than 20.000 people

11 gathered together. Don't mix it up with Celina, because Celina -- those

12 from Celina were gathered in a different place.

13 Q. I didn't mix it up. All I was doing was asking you whether you

14 were together, and your answer was yes. But quite possibly they were in

15 some other place.

16 On the 26th and 27th, you were surrounded, but from what I was

17 able to hear from you here, nobody suffered. There were no casualties.

18 You said that the policemen shot in the air.

19 A. On the same day, your troops, when they had burnt everything that

20 we had left at Prroni i Cilave, and there were three elderly women burned

21 by your forces, you should bear in mind that I myself was involved in

22 this, and I buried her together with her son. See, how can you say that

23 nothing happened? You burned three elderly women. It is unimaginable the

24 things that you have done.

25 Q. I am just asking you questions which emerge from what you yourself

Page 846

1 said. You said that a man named Gashi had established contact with a Serb

2 officer who told him that they should go to Prizren.

3 A. That is true, but I explained at greater length that -- but I

4 explained that the Serbian forces burnt all that property that we left at

5 Prroni i Cilave, and at that point there were three elderly women burned

6 to death, one from Krusha e Mahde, one from Opterusa, and one from Hoca e

7 Vogel.

8 Q. I should like to ask you to answer my questions, please. You have

9 just said that the officer by the name of Gashi told you to move to

10 Prizren because there was fighting going on, and you yourself said that

11 once you set out, you saw other soldiers in trenches, in positions in

12 trenches.

13 A. This is another Gashi. I didn't say that Gashi told me. I told

14 you that Zylfi Gashi spoke with the officer who said to leave the hiding

15 place and to go to Prizren and to go to Albania. And then we went out to

16 the main road from Rahovec, Krusa, Prizren, and there there were Serbian

17 forces stationed with mortars, and they changed our direction. They

18 didn't allow us to go from Prizren and Albania, but they sent us back to

19 Nagafc. And this entire crowd was concentrated in the village of Nagafc.

20 Q. In view of the fact that there was fighting going on from the 25th

21 of May to the first days of April, or in that whole terrain, between the

22 army of Yugoslavia and the KLA, did you happen to think that they were

23 taking you back to Nogovac to protect you? Did that come to mind? So

24 that you shouldn't have to pass through territory where there were combat

25 operations from both sides?

Page 847

1 A. If that is help, if that is what you call help, what would the

2 other be? Because down to the 25th of March, we didn't have any kind of

3 conflict, but suddenly we had Serbian forces all around us.

4 Q. But nobody attacked you.

5 JUDGE MAY: That's not --

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Yes or no.

8 JUDGE MAY: He's not given any evidence of any attack before, so

9 let's not go back. Can we go on, please.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like an explanation. There

11 are two elements that are lacking here. There is no NATO and no KLA in

12 the fighting that was taking place in the area, and all this has been

13 recorded and documented. So I'm trying to establish where those two

14 elements are in the testimony by this witness. There doesn't seem to be

15 any bombing except when those people were killed, the local -- the

16 villagers were killed, and there's no KLA anywhere.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, he can only give his evidence -- just a

18 moment. He can only give his evidence. He's given his evidence, and he's

19 told us that he didn't see any of the things which you've suggested. Now,

20 you must confine your questions to those matters that he's given evidence

21 about.

22 As I have told you, if you have contrary evidence which you wish

23 to put before the Tribunal, of course you can in due course, but

24 meanwhile, let's try and get on and deal with this witness's evidence and

25 what he said he saw.

Page 848

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. On the 28th, you heard shooting. You formed a four-member

3 delegation to go and see what was happening, and when they came to the

4 bridge, they were told that there had been a massacre in the house of Gani

5 Gashi. And after that, your son -- Ismail Gashi's son told you that there

6 was no massacre. Is that correct or not?

7 A. First of all, Ismail Gashi is not my son because I am Fehim

8 Elshani. Ismail Gashi is somebody else. And he said that there had not

9 been a massacre, and so we went back. But after a time, there was more

10 gunfire in Gani Gashi's yard. And if you want to know the details, I can

11 explain that these people were stripped to the waist and they were put up

12 against a wall, and to scare them, and then they started looting.

13 Q. Would you kindly answer my questions.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] And could you please tell the

15 witness to answer my questions.

16 Q. The policemen that appeared and said they wouldn't shoot and that

17 you shouldn't shoot at them, the policemen who said, "Don't shoot at us,

18 and we won't shoot at you," how come they told you not to shoot if they

19 saw that you didn't have any weapons?

20 JUDGE MAY: Can you answer that? Do you know what they thought?

21 Mr. Milosevic, he can't answer that.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You said that you were collecting some money to bribe the soldiers

25 to help you to leave to a safer place. Leaving aside whether you

Page 849

1 collected the money or not, I -- your intention was to leave that place,

2 to leave it and go to a safer place; is that right? Yes or no.

3 A. It was not our purpose to go away. Our purpose was to prevent us

4 being attacked.

5 Q. Yes. But you yourself said, "in order to go to a safer place."

6 At least, that was the interpretation that I was getting, that it was your

7 intention to go to a safer, more secure place.

8 Now, if you want to change your testimony, that's another thing,

9 but that's what you said.

10 A. It's not true, because I testified that people around our village,

11 I explained that they gathered money and gave it to the Serbian forces to

12 go to another place, and collecting money to save their own lives, not to

13 go somewhere else. You didn't understand my answer.

14 Q. You said that there were a lot of Serb forces.

15 A. I didn't say there were many or few Serbs forces, please.

16 Q. How many were there, then?

17 A. When do you mean? When?

18 Q. On that occasion when you were looking to go to a safer place,

19 when you were giving the money to the policemen, as you said.

20 A. On the critical day, with my own eyes, I saw seven policemen.

21 Q. So all those Serb forces, which, on the critical day you're

22 describing, boiled down to a mere seven policemen; is that what you're

23 saying?

24 JUDGE MAY: That's what he said he saw.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 850

1 Q. Did you see the money being given to the policemen?

2 JUDGE MAY: No. He said earlier he didn't.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't notice that.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I can, please, I would like to

5 make an explanation. I saw with my own eyes people being robbed of their

6 money.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. There's no need to go on. I'll ask you the next question.

9 JUDGE MAY: Let him finish this point. He wants to explain

10 something.

11 Yes, Mr. Elshani. What was it you wanted to explain?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He's asking me whether I have seen

13 with my own eyes the money that was collected from those two people.

14 Until we came to the yard of the neighbour, I saw -- I gave my own money

15 to the policemen: francs, Deutschmarks, dinars. I saw them putting them

16 in the pocket, and the other things they threw on the ground. I saw with

17 my own eyes. I didn't see 12.000 Deutschmarks and 24.000 Deutschmarks

18 when they were handed to the police, because, I said, I was -- I had to go

19 home. They ordered us to go to -- to enter our homes. I couldn't see

20 everything. But what I saw, I saw. I saw the policemen putting in their

21 pockets all kinds of money. Other things, they just dropped on the

22 ground. They were not interested in other items; only in money, or gold

23 and things, jewellery. This I saw with my own eyes.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 851

1 Q. You said that in the night between the 1st and 2nd of April, you

2 were at home when you were woken up by two strong explosions at 1.20 a.m.,

3 1.20 in the morning.

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. And you used the word "plane," "airplane," in describing, in

6 response to a question from the Prosecution, what you heard; yes or no.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Therefore, the injured people that you saw had been injured in the

9 bombing?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yes. You saw the craters too?

12 A. That night I couldn't see the craters, but later.

13 Q. Later on. Yes, I see. You loaded up the injured people into a

14 vehicle and left for Prizren. Did anybody stop you doing that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Nobody stopped you going to Prizren to take the people to

17 hospital. You said that when you returned, your vehicle was taken away

18 from you.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who took that vehicle away from you?

21 A. The car's owner.

22 Q. So you returned the owner the car you had taken to drive these

23 people to Prizren?

24 A. I didn't give it back to him, but he took it in order to load up

25 his own family in it.

Page 852

1 Q. How big is your house?

2 A. My house is of two storeys, with a cellar, an average-sized house.

3 Q. How many metres is the cellar, square metres? How long and how

4 wide is the cellar to your house?

5 A. The cellar is 6 metres deep and 18 metres wide, and it also has an

6 annex to it, added to it, and it's divided inside.

7 Q. Did anybody from your house shoot at the army or the police when

8 it came towards the village?

9 A. No, never.

10 Q. To what, then, do you ascribe the question of the policeman asking

11 you whose house it was?

12 A. They, no doubt, were local police, and they asked this sick

13 person, "Who does this house belong to?"

14 Q. The policeman referred to you as "Uncle Fehim"; is that right?

15 Their behaviour and conduct towards you was friendly?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Apart from that one that threatened you with the knife.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And afterwards, the police came to ask you to identify the victims

20 of the bombing?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then the comment was: "See what NATO has done"?

23 A. That's what my police -- that's what your police said to me. That

24 was one of them who was near me, not all of them.

25 Q. Yes. But you said that it was a plane too. You were an employee,

Page 853

1 a clerk in Orahovac, and then you were able to see the police reports.

2 From what you said, were you able to conclude that they identified what

3 had happened and did on-site reports and investigation as to the attack

4 that had been carried out and the victims that resulted?

5 A. This question is not clear to me.

6 Q. The activities that the police undertook - and you said they went

7 to take pictures of the corpses, saw what damage had been done, identified

8 the persons killed - did that seem to you to be an on-site investigation

9 into the disaster that had occurred?

10 A. It didn't seem to me like any kind of investigation, to me.

11 Q. You said that a man by the name of Isaku, who worked in the state

12 security, told you that you should take cover and get away from that

13 area.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What was he by ethnicity, this man Isaku?

16 A. Romany. Romany.

17 Q. Did you consider that he was being friendly towards you?

18 A. I don't really know. I don't believe that he was kindly towards

19 the Albanian population.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, if you're going to move on now to the

21 3rd of April, we'll adjourn, half past 2.00.

22 Mr. Elshani, will you be back, please, at half past 2.00 to

23 conclude your examination. Would you remember during the adjournment not

24 to speak to anybody about your evidence, and that does include the members

25 of the Prosecution team. Thank you.

Page 854

1 Half past 2.00, please.

























Page 855

1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. It's all right now.

5 Q. After the events you described, you went to Prizren on your own

6 free will, didn't you? Yes or no, please.

7 A. I don't know that one can leave his own home out of his own free

8 will to go to Prizren.

9 Q. So somebody actually sent you to Prizren or expelled you, made you

10 go there?

11 A. It is quite obvious.

12 Q. Who forced you to go to Prizren?

13 A. We were forced to go to Prizren as a result of the victims that we

14 left in our courtyard.

15 Q. Victims of NATO bombing?

16 A. The opposite.

17 Q. Well, this is something that you said yourself. So you stayed in

18 Prizren for two weeks then?

19 A. It's not sure that I stayed there for two weeks. I stayed there

20 for six weeks; one month and a half.

21 Q. I wrote down as you having said you stayed there for two weeks.

22 So you went to Prizren on your own?

23 A. I don't know what you have written down, but I have stated that

24 for two weeks I stayed at my brother-in-law. For one month I stayed at my

25 cousin's. This is what I told the Court.

Page 856

1 Q. Nobody escorted you on your way to Prizren?

2 A. Who could escort us? Because all the village was empty, with the

3 exception of Serb paramilitary and army and police.

4 Q. But nobody prevented you from going to Prizren, and nobody

5 harassed you. You said that you went from your village to Prizren on your

6 tractor.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. During your stay in Prizren, did you see the bombing of Prizren?

9 A. Yes, I did. But this is not relevant to what I have said here to

10 this Court.

11 Q. Well, you were in Prizren, so did you see Jablanica being bombed?

12 A. Please, I don't know where Jablanica is. I haven't seen anything

13 there, that it was shelled. I didn't hear anything.

14 Q. All right. But you did see, you did witness the bombing of

15 Prizren; is that right?

16 A. Please stick to my statement, to the statement that I have made to

17 this trial. I don't -- I have not stated anything about the bombing of

18 Prizren, so I'm not going to give you any explanation about that.

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic. Mr. Milosevic, I think he's dealt with

20 as much as he can about that. If you'd move on to another topic, please.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Did somebody force you to go to Albania when you went there from

23 Prizren?

24 A. I told you that we had those injured people who were in hospital.

25 Do you mean those injured or in general the people who were forced to go

Page 857

1 to Albania? I don't understand.

2 Q. I asked you whether anybody from the authorities, army, or the

3 police forced you to go from Prizren to Albania.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If Your Honours allow me, I would

5 like to give more details to add something to the statement. If you

6 enable me to do that, then I would give you further explanation.


8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my presence -- since this is not

9 relevant to my statement, I'm telling you that when I was in Prizren, I

10 stayed there illegally. I know of cases when Serb police forces have

11 entered from one home to another, from one house to another, to see

12 whether they had any refugees from Prizren territory. And these people,

13 if they have found people in these houses in Prizren, they had driven them

14 out and escorted them to Albania, where the owner, they have imprisoned

15 him because he has taken guests in an illegal way. I don't know if I need

16 to make any comments or if this is the accurate answer. So there was no

17 other place for us to go other than to Albania. I think this was what the

18 Serb government wanted us to do.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. How do you know that this is what the Serb government wanted you

22 to do?

23 A. I just explained a little while ago. I told you that they went to

24 search from house to house, and if they found out that there were refugees

25 in those families, they drove them out, on the allegation that they were

Page 858

1 illegal there. So they drove them to the border, to Albania, people who

2 were injured, wounded from the bombing. We were in large numbers. We

3 didn't know where to go other than to go to Albania. They were invalids.

4 They were with one foot in the grave. So we could not live in Prizren and

5 be considered legitimate citizens. As far as going back to the villages

6 where we used to live, we couldn't do that. There was no opportunity to

7 do that.

8 Q. You said that you stayed in Prizren illegally, for six weeks, that

9 you went there illegally, but you said yourself that, on your way there,

10 you met a lot of policemen, a lot of troops, soldiers. But you said that

11 nobody prevented you from going there, that your travel there was

12 unhindered. Why did you now make up this story about your being treated

13 as an illegal resident of Prizren when in fact all the time you were a

14 citizen of Yugoslavia?

15 JUDGE MAY: No need to answer that question.

16 He's given his explanation.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Very well. In Zhur, a policeman and a soldier, as you said,

19 warned you not to leave the asphalt road because the ground around there

20 was mined and they didn't want you to step on one. Did you consider their

21 warning to be a good-natured one and an official?

22 A. I don't know how to answer this question, but probably they have

23 ordered -- taken orders from you so that we could cross the border safe.

24 That's why they wanted to protect us.

25 Q. So the head of the customs service told you that you were not

Page 859

1 allowed to cross into Albania. Then how did they let you cross into

2 Albania after all?

3 A. Please listen to me. At that moment, at the crossing border,

4 there was no customs officer. That is not true. There were only police

5 forces at the customs house, at the customs zone, and in the actual

6 customs building.

7 Q. But you said yourself that the head of the customs service had

8 told you that you could not cross into Albania. This is not something

9 that I made up; these are your words.

10 A. I don't remember to have said this. If I have, I have to correct

11 myself. There were no customs officers there, only police forces. And

12 the chief of the police - I don't know his name - he told us, "Stop," he

13 took away our IDs, then he entered to the building. I don't know whom he

14 consulted there. Then I got the answer that, "You cannot travel to

15 Albania. You have to turn back to Prizren."

16 Since you're asking for this explanation, I may tell you that the

17 next group that was heading for Albania - there were some 30 people

18 walking on foot - when they arrived at the border zone, I asked my -- the

19 people who were with me to join the other group, and they waited for three

20 hours at the border checkpoint because the Serb forces did not allow them

21 to cross the border.

22 Then with my tractor, I returned. I turned back my tractor in the

23 direction of Prizren. I was near my tractor. After three hours, I

24 heard - I don't know how true that is - that these people paid, at the

25 border paid money to the police forces, who lifted the ramp, allowing them

Page 860

1 to cross the border. Then quickly I returned with my tractor to the

2 border checkpoint and then the police there asked my -- for my ID, my

3 wife's ID, and he took them away, poof, and he threw them in place in a

4 barrel which was 2, 3 metres long, along with many other IDs and

5 passports. I saw that with my own eyes, and I have testified to that.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would ask you to instruct the

7 witness to reply with a yes or no. Otherwise, we'll never finish.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. He was giving an explanation, which he'd been

9 asked for. But let's go on.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You said a bit ago that, at the border, a policeman told you you

12 couldn't cross into Albania and that you should go back to Prizren; and

13 prior to that, you said that your stay in Prizren was an illegal one, you

14 stayed there illegally, and that anybody who would be found there would be

15 expelled and the owner of the house in which they were found would be

16 arrested, whereas now you're saying that the policeman in fact told you to

17 go back to Prizren. Do you think that this is somewhat contradictory?

18 JUDGE MAY: If your answer is no, just say no.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Yesterday's witness said that his documents were not taken away

22 from him, and you're saying that your ID documents were taken away from

23 you. Do you know why they took documents from some people but not from

24 the others?

25 A. You know better than anyone else, I think.

Page 861

1 Q. Yes or no, or do you not know?

2 A. Please, I told you. You know better than anyone else why.

3 Q. I asked you a question.

4 JUDGE MAY: He doesn't know, and he's saying, in effect, that it's

5 not a matter for him to answer. Yes. Anything more for him, please?

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You said that they wanted to take all of your documents away.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did they search you?

10 A. They searched us, and whenever they found something that they

11 liked, they took it away.

12 Q. So they searched you at the border?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When you crossed into Albania, where did you go?

15 A. I don't think this is a question I take from you. We left the

16 border and then what we do from then on, that's none of your business.

17 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment. What's the relevance

18 of this, Mr. Milosevic?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because I want to ask him whether he

20 saw troops and which troops he saw in Albania.

21 JUDGE MAY: Did you see any troops in Albania?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not here to make any comments,

23 to give any answer to such questions.

24 JUDGE MAY: If you are asked by the Court, you will answer the

25 question. Now, you've been asked a perfectly proper question. If you

Page 862

1 don't know, just say you don't know. But if you're asked by the Court,

2 you must answer.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If Your Honour asks me, then I

4 will answer, of course.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Can you tell us, please?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were.

7 JUDGE MAY: And were they near the border or not?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They were far from the border,

9 some 10, 12 kilometres away.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, that's as far as we're going to take

12 that point.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. How long did you stay in Albania? Let's shorten this. When did

16 you come back? When did you cross the border back?

17 A. I think this is outside. This is irrelevant to my statement. If

18 Your Honours allow me to give explanation, I will, of course.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you give an explanation.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Among the injured, there was also my

21 niece. Her right leg was cut up to the knee. When I arrived in Albania,

22 I stayed in Fushkruje. There were the French Doctors Sans Frontieres, and

23 they asked that little Valentine, my niece who was nine years old, that if

24 the French government agreed, they would like to take her to France to

25 cure, to make plastic -- to give her a plastic leg. And they took this

Page 863

1 initiative and then they did that. We saw Valentine off to France. And

2 on June 29th of that year, we returned to our own homes.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue?


5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You said that you worked as a clerk at the municipality of

7 Orahovac.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you perhaps a director of a bank of the service of public

10 accounting in Orahovac?

11 A. I didn't have -- there did not exist such a function in the social

12 accounting service in Rahovec.

13 Q. There was a branch of the social accounting office in Orahovac.

14 Did you work there, by any chance?

15 A. No, there was not such a branch. No, there wasn't such a branch.

16 Q. So you didn't work at the social accounting service?

17 A. I did work there.

18 Q. Therefore, you worked at the SDK, which is a social accounting

19 service; you did not work at the municipality?

20 JUDGE MAY: We've been through all this, I think, at the

21 beginning, and if we haven't, I don't see the relevance of it.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is relevant because the witness

23 is giving an untruthful testimony. Because as a director of the SDK in

24 Orahovac, as an educated man, he should have known that nobody on

25 television or in the press in Serbia did not announce [as interpreted] how

Page 864

1 they are going to take revenge on Albanians, and other things that he

2 mentioned, representing himself as a farmer here.

3 JUDGE MAY: He has given his evidence. We've heard it. As I've

4 said more than once, if you've got evidence to the contrary, we will hear

5 it in due course, Mr. Milosevic. Now, unless you've got a new topic and

6 something relevant, we're going to conclude this cross-examination.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will -- I have another question,

8 and I will switch to another topic.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. In view of the fact that you said that you had been dismissed,

11 based on the information that I received, you are a regular retiree and

12 receive full retirement benefits, and you have retired in 1991, have been

13 retired since then.

14 JUDGE MAY: It's put to you --

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Just reply with a yes or no, please.

17 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. It's put to you that you retired

18 normally, with the normal benefits. Is that suggestion true or not?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will give you an explanation. My

20 presence was undesirable. They gave someone to me, a young guy, to train

21 in that task, for that job, and they dismissed me before my time was up.

22 So I did not stay there as long as I should stay. I was forced to leave

23 my job.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I suggest that the witness answer

Page 865

1 the question: Did he retire with full retirement pension?

2 JUDGE MAY: Did you have a pension, Mr. Elshani, or not?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't have a pension.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So you're saying you don't have it now. Did you receive this

6 pension in 1991?

7 A. I don't know why you are insisting on this question.

8 Q. Because it is relevant for the veracity of your testimony. It is

9 one thing to be dismissed from work and quite another to go into

10 retirement with full retirement pension. The first option indicates that

11 there has been some harassment or ill-treatment, and the other one

12 indicates that nothing improper was done. Therefore, did you receive your

13 retirement pension, a full one, in 1991, or you did not?

14 A. Please, in that I was dismissed from my job, I went through

15 another procedure so that I could enjoy benefits, and I didn't receive a

16 pension until later, when I took this matter up.

17 JUDGE MAY: I think we've now exhausted this topic,

18 Mr. Milosevic. You've made your point and we've heard the explanation.

19 Now, unless there's anything new, we're going to bring this

20 cross-examination to an end.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you know that the members of the KLA, after NATO came to

23 Orahovac, that they set fire to 154 Serb houses? You say that you

24 returned to your village then.

25 JUDGE MAY: We have finished with the KLA. The witness has given

Page 866

1 his answer about it, that he doesn't know anything about it. In due

2 course, if you wish, you may put evidence before us to the contrary but,

3 at the moment, we're simply dealing with cross-examination.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. That is your decision.

5 It is up to you.

6 JUDGE MAY: Any re-examination?

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

8 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may be allowed to ask a few

10 questions myself.

11 JUDGE MAY: Just a few, please.

12 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Elshani, you said in your testimony that a

14 cousin of yours, Morina Xhafer, with her family, came on the 16th or 17th

15 of May because of the fighting that was taking place between the Serb

16 forces and the KLA in their village, that she came to you. That is

17 something that has already been stated. Now, I'm interested in knowing

18 the following: Your other cousin, Hidajete Makshana, she is your

19 daughter-in-law with her family [as interpreted] from the village of

20 Drenovc, in the Orahovac municipality. Did she come to you on the 6th of

21 July, 1998 because of the fighting that was going on in her village and

22 around her village between the Serb forces and the KLA? Is that correct?

23 A. This is correct, because Xhafer Morina came on the 17th of May,

24 and Hidajete Makshana came on the 6th or 7th of July, 1998, with their

25 families. It's true.

Page 867

1 Q. And is it also true that 11-year-old Shemsedin Kabashi and

2 9-year-old Islam Kabashi and from the Zocishte village, in the same

3 municipality, came to you with their parents, came to your village and

4 stayed with you, for the same reasons?

5 A. It's true.

6 Q. My next question is the following: Your son was linked with the

7 KLA, although you never meddled in that, you never interfered; is that

8 right?

9 A. It's true. I was never involved. My son was involved. But this

10 was beyond my knowledge. I didn't have any part in it.

11 Q. On the 28th of March, we heard what happened. You explained it in

12 detail. Over the next few days, after that, there were no more soldiers

13 in your village; is that right?

14 A. It was true. On the 26th, we were in position in the village, and

15 then it was quiet. And on the 28th we were looted, and the 28th was both

16 Sunday and the day of Bajram. And until 2nd of April, there were no

17 troops or police forces, neither police nor military forces in the

18 village.

19 Q. I'm interested in knowing just this: When you heard the two

20 explosions, the windows in your room were shattered and so did the beams.

21 The beams fell off the ceiling after you heard those two explosions; is

22 that correct?

23 A. It's true. Doors, windows, the ceiling fell on us because of the

24 power of the explosion, and that's very, very true. My whole house shook;

25 bricks, tiles, everything. Not only my house but all the other houses

Page 868

1 around about. It was like a great earthquake from this explosion.

2 Q. Thank you. The following day -- one more question. The following

3 day, the next day, you saw in the village seven craters 3.5 metres in

4 width and 10 metres long; is that correct?

5 A. We didn't see these the next day because we were -- we were under

6 exceptional circumstances. We didn't have a chance to see these things.

7 We saw these things after we returned from Albania, and we saw all these

8 things that had happened.

9 Q. On that day, immediately after the explosion, did you see the

10 remnants of a bomb, of the cluster bombs?

11 A. I don't know whether it was a cluster bomb, but we found these

12 remains with clear inscriptions in Cyrillic, and parts of these fragments

13 were handed to the members of German KFOR.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Thank you.

15 MS. ROMANO: Not any more.

16 JUDGE KWON: Just before letting the witness go, I wonder if there

17 is any relevance, but I would like to put this question to the

18 Prosecution: The witness mentioned the name "Ukshin Hoti" today, whose

19 parents were staying in the cellar of his house, and we heard the name of

20 Ukshin Hoti the day before yesterday from Bakalli, if you remember. Is it

21 the same person or not?

22 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, without seeing the name or the right

23 spelling --

24 JUDGE KWON: Ukshin Hoti is a popular name. All right. I see.

25 MS. ROMANO: Yeah. All the Albanian names are quite similar, so

Page 869

1 without seeing the correct spelling, it's difficult to ascertain if it's

2 the same person or not. But we can clarify this later probably.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Elshani, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

4 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Halil Morina.

7 While we are waiting for the arrival of Mr. Morina, might I take

8 this opportunity to provide the Court with the bound exhibits that I

9 promised you we would be providing. You recall when I dealt with

10 Mr. Spargo's evidence, there had been some miscommunication in terms of

11 whether or not the Court wanted these in bound volume or singly. We have

12 reconstructed the bound volume, and what we have done is in a package, we

13 have also now put the exhibit number on them. So perhaps -- I have enough

14 copies for the Bench and one for the clerk of Chambers and one for the

15 accused, and the amici already have their copy.

16 So I thought I could take this opportunity while we're waiting for

17 the witness to have these distributed.

18 I might also ask whether the Court have received copies of the

19 next witness's summary, trial summary that I prepared.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we have.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: You do have it. Thank you.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 870

1 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

5 Q. Mr. Morina, I understand, sir, that you were born in the village

6 of Landovica in the Prizren municipality in 1936. Is that correct?

7 A. Of Prizren.

8 Q. Yes. And do I understand, sir, that your ethnicity is a Kosovo

9 Albanian?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you are of the Muslim religion?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I understand, sir, that you have eight adult children and that you

14 are now a retired farmer. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, sir, Landovica, can you tell us how large a town or village

17 that is or was in 1999, in March?

18 A. It's a big village; 120 houses.

19 Q. To your recollection, sir, were there any Serb residents of your

20 village in March of 1999?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Other than Kosovar Albanians, was there another ethnic group

23 resident there?

24 A. No. Only Albanians.

25 Q. Were there any Roma, or Gypsies, living there?

Page 871

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And was there a particular neighbourhood within Landovica that was

3 largely occupied by the Roma or Gypsy people?

4 A. No. No. There were only a few.

5 Q. All right. Now, sir, I'm going to ask that you be shown

6 Exhibit 3, map 2. And the usher is going to put that on the overhead

7 projector, and I'm going to have you look at the screen and point out, if

8 you would, please -- I'm just waiting for the -- if you could point out,

9 first of all, if you recognise where your village is on this map,

10 Exhibit 3, map 2.

11 Do you see your village on that map, first of all, sir? Do you

12 recognise it? Yes, you'll have to use your glasses, I believe. You're

13 being handed a pointer.

14 A. There is Landovica.

15 Q. Yes. You're pointing at the screen, but you're going to have to

16 point to the map on the overhead projector and it will show on the screen

17 in front of you, sir. Can you see that?

18 A. Yes. There is Landovica.

19 Q. And is it fair to say that that's to the north of the large city

20 of Prizren?

21 A. Yes, it is. Exactly to the north.

22 Q. And, sir, where was your house in relation to Landovica? Was it

23 in the centre of town or was on the outskirts of town, or can you tell

24 us?

25 A. It was on the outskirts of Landovica.

Page 872

1 Q. And would you say -- are you able to indicate to the Court the

2 north outskirts, south outskirts, east, west? Can you help us there?

3 A. To the west.

4 Q. And from your -- from your house, were you able to see any other

5 villages?

6 A. My house was rather low lying, so I couldn't see, but if you went

7 up to the hill, you could.

8 Q. And when you went to the hill, what villages could you see?

9 A. We could see Pirana, Gecaj.

10 Q. And are those villages located on the map, and if so, can you

11 point to them? Are you able to see from where you are, sir? I realise

12 it's some distance for you to --

13 A. There's Pirana.

14 Q. You're pointing to the north of Landovica; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. To your knowledge, how far away was Pirana from your village of

17 Landovica?

18 A. Three kilometres.

19 Q. All right. We'll leave that map there, but I want to turn --

20 because we'll refer to it again later, but I'm going to ask you a few

21 other questions, sir.

22 First of all, as a young man, did you perform your compulsory

23 military service with the JNA?

24 A. Yes, I did. I completed military service. Shall I say where I

25 completed it?

Page 873

1 Q. Certainly, if you wish. Yes.

2 A. I did three months in Brcko, training. I was in the anti-aircraft

3 division, and then I did two years in all.

4 Q. And is it right, sir, that you did that between the years of 1958

5 and 1960?

6 A. That's right, 1958 to 1960.

7 Q. All right. Now, sir, I'd like you to turn your mind to near the

8 last week of March of 1999. Did you, on the 26th of March, did you happen

9 to notice anything with respect to this village of Pirana that you pointed

10 on the map?

11 A. On the 25th of March, Pirana was burned.

12 Q. How do you know that?

13 A. We saw it from the hill.

14 Q. And you say that's some three kilometres away, or at least that

15 was your evidence, that Pirana is about three kilometres away. You could

16 see that far, could you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what --

19 A. You could see clearly from the hill.

20 Q. What could you actually see, sir? Could you see the houses or

21 could you see the results of burning?

22 A. We could see the flames, smoke rising, houses burning.

23 Q. And do you know what effect that the burning houses had on the

24 villagers of Pirana? What happened to them as a result of that?

25 A. These villagers fled to Srbica e Ulet, and some of them also to

Page 874

1 Mamusa.

2 Q. Do you know what type of a village Pirana was? Do you know what

3 the predominant ethnicity was in that village?

4 A. They were Albanians and Gypsies.

5 Q. Now, sir, I asked you a question earlier if you knew what happened

6 to them. How did you find that out? Was that as a result of anyone

7 telling you that, or did you see it, or how did you find out where they

8 went?

9 A. I saw it for myself.

10 Q. Did any of those villagers come into the direction of your

11 village?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Well, sir, a few days after witnessing this incident happening in

14 Pirana, did anything happen to your village of Landovica?

15 A. On the 26th. It all happened at once.

16 Q. And just so that we're clear, we're talking about the 26th of

17 March, 1999; is that correct, sir?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. What happened?

20 A. Four soldiers came, and I saw them with my own eyes. The centre

21 of the village is about one kilometre from my home, and there was a clash

22 involving a person, and three persons were killed, and the person who

23 clashed with the soldiers was also killed.

24 Q. I'm going to stop you there, if I may. When you say "soldiers,"

25 what kind of soldiers are you talking about?

Page 875

1 A. They were regular soldiers.

2 Q. And when you say "regular soldiers," just so that I'm clear,

3 regular soldiers of a particular army? And if so, which one?

4 A. They were regular soldiers that were stationed in Landovica, one

5 kilometre away.

6 Q. And these regular soldiers, do you know whether they were Albanian

7 soldiers or Serb soldiers or some other kind of soldiers?

8 A. They were Serbian soldiers.

9 Q. Would they have been part of what was known as the VJ?

10 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, the VJ.

11 Q. Now, as I understand it, sir, you indicated that four of them came

12 to your village and clashed with an individual.

13 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Did you know who this individual was?

15 A. Which? Do you mean the soldiers?

16 Q. No. You've told us that four soldiers, regular VJ soldiers,

17 clashed with an individual. I'm now asking about the person that these

18 soldiers clashed with, to use your words. Did you know whether or not

19 that person was a soldier or a civilian, or did you know him?

20 A. They clashed with a person.

21 Q. I understand that, sir. I'm trying to see if you can give us more

22 particularity as to who that person may have been. Let me take this step

23 by step. Do you know if he was a resident of your village?

24 A. He was a resident of our village.

25 Q. Do you know who that individual was by name? I'm not asking you

Page 876

1 to tell us what the name is, but do you know who that was?

2 A. Yes. Hashim [phoen] Gashi.

3 Q. Do you know whether or not he was a civilian or whether he

4 belonged to some military organisation of any kind?

5 A. He was a civilian.

6 Q. Did you see this incident of the clash between the soldiers and

7 this villager, or did you only hear about it?

8 A. No, I didn't see it, and I didn't see either -- the soldiers

9 either alive or dead; I merely heard of this.

10 Q. When you earlier said in your evidence you saw something with your

11 own eyes, were you referring to the arrival of the soldiers or were you

12 referring to the incident of the clash?

13 A. These are things that I heard, not things that I said that I saw

14 with my own eyes.

15 Q. I see. Do you know what happened as a result of this clash? Do

16 you have any personal knowledge as to what happened as a result of this

17 clash between the villager and the three -- the four soldiers?

18 A. I merely know that they came, and they came on the paved

19 Prizren-Gjakova road, with tanks and staff cars.

20 Q. You've gone a little ahead of where I'm directing your attention,

21 sir. I'll just wait for translation. What I'm asking you now is: You

22 said that there was a clash between the soldiers and the villager. Do you

23 have any personal knowledge of what happened during that clash or the

24 result of that clash?

25 A. I know that the people left -- the residents left the village.

Page 877

1 Q. Let me direct your attention very pointedly. What happened to

2 those four soldiers?

3 A. Three were killed on the spot. One could leave.

4 Q. What happened to the villager?

5 A. He was killed on the spot too.

6 Q. Did you see these dead individuals personally or did you only hear

7 about that?

8 A. I only heard about them. I didn't see them with my own eyes.

9 Q. Now, let's move on, then. About what time of the day had that

10 clash occurred, to the best of your understanding?

11 A. It was around 10.00. I am not very accurate.

12 Q. After that clash where three of the four soldiers were killed, did

13 something further happen in respect of your village?

14 A. The troops came.

15 Q. How soon afterwards, do you know?

16 A. After an hour. At 11.00.

17 Q. You say troops arrived. Can you describe to the Court, if you

18 would, in as much detail as possible, what you mean by "troops"?

19 A. They came by tanks, Pragas, militia and army troops.

20 Q. Now, you've told us that you had served in the JNA as a young

21 man. Were you able to recognise or are you able to recognise uniforms,

22 for example?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Are you able to describe what you mean by "tanks" and "Pragas"?

25 A. Yes.

Page 878

1 MR. RYNEVELD: I would invite that the witness now be shown -- I

2 believe it's Exhibit 18, first, if I may. Actually, before that's up, I

3 should ask a couple of questions. Sorry.

4 Q. Could you, to the best of your descriptive powers, tell the Court

5 what these uniforms looked like on the soldiers you say were regular

6 troops? What colour were they? What do they look like?

7 A. Army soldiers.

8 Q. Yes. And army soldiers wear a particular kind of uniform, do

9 they?

10 A. The usual army uniform.

11 Q. Are you able to describe the colour of what you understand to be a

12 regular army uniform?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you try for us now?

15 A. There is nothing special. It's quite clear for everyone what an

16 army uniform is.

17 Q. Are you able to describe it for us in words or would you only be

18 able to describe it by recognition if you were to see a photograph of

19 something like that?

20 A. Yes, I know the uniform. I can show it also if I see a photo or

21 by words, as you wish.

22 Q. Try the words first, and then I'll show you a photo.

23 A. Regular army soldiers dressed in their uniforms. I saw the tanks,

24 the usual tanks. That was how I saw it -- them.

25 Q. All right, sir.

Page 879

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the witness now be shown what has been

2 marked, I believe, in these proceedings as Exhibit number 18.

3 Q. Again, sir, we're going to put that up on that ELMO, we call it.

4 It's an overhead projector.

5 A. That's what I want to see.

6 Q. All right. Now, there's a particular photograph being shown on

7 the ELMO. Did you ask the clerk to put that one up? Did you select

8 that? I don't understand how it is that number 9 is on the ELMO. Was

9 that at your request, sir?

10 A. Let me see it. Let me have a look at it.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Just for the record, Exhibit 18 has a number of

12 photographs, each of which has a number in the top left-hand corner from 1

13 to 10.

14 Q. Are you able to tell us whether or not the regular army uniform to

15 which you refer is shown on any of these numbered photographs on

16 Exhibit 18, and if so, which one? Or more than one? Or any at all?

17 A. This is not the one that I have in mind. I'm looking for

18 something else.

19 Q. All right. So the uniforms that you saw do not appear to you to

20 be on this photograph; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, it's correct.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. [No translation]

24 Q. All right, sir. Now, you -- so you say you saw regular army

25 uniforms. Did you see any other kind of uniforms?

Page 880

1 A. Yeah. I saw the regular army uniforms myself, with my own eyes.

2 Q. Any other kind of uniforms?

3 A. No, nothing other than those regular army uniforms.

4 Q. All right. Sir, you've also told us -- I believe you used the

5 word "tanks." Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell us what you saw. How many tanks, how many other vehicles did

8 you see?

9 A. I saw three tanks. One was bigger, two were smaller. And

10 Pinzgauer and Pragas.

11 Q. What -- all right.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps -- might the witness be shown the bundle of

13 photographs in Exhibit number 17.

14 Q. Now, sir, you're being handed by the clerk four sets -- four

15 pieces of paper with some numbers on them. There are some vehicles

16 depicted in those photographs, and each of those photographs has a number

17 immediately under it.

18 A. Yes. I can see the tank, the Praga.

19 Q. All right. You told us -- let's take this one at a time. You say

20 you saw one large tank and two smaller tanks. Do you see a vehicle --

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. -- that looks like the bigger tank anywhere in these photographs

23 or not?

24 A. Yes. This is the larger tank, and this is the Praga here.

25 Q. Let's just take them one at a time. Sir, you've located what you

Page 881

1 call the larger tank. Does the photo you're looking at have a number

2 underneath it, and if so, what is that number?

3 A. Number 2 and 1.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Okay. Could that be shown.

5 Q. All right, sir. You've shown 2 and now 1.

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. I believe you've also indicated what you called a Praga. Do you

8 see the Praga in any of these photographs?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And could you point out and give us the number of the vehicle that

11 most resembles what you call a Praga?

12 A. Number 4.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Could that be shown. Thank you.

14 Q. So this rather large vehicle in number 4, that is what you refer

15 to when you say "Praga"; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Sir, do you, from your military experience, do you know the

18 difference between a tank and an APC, or an Armoured Personnel Carrier?

19 Do you know the difference between those two?

20 A. Repeat the question, please. I'm not clear.

21 Q. Are you aware if there is a difference or -- of the difference, if

22 there is one, between what is known as a tank and Armoured Personnel

23 Carrier, usually referred to as an APC?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you look at numbers 5 and 6 for us, if you would, please.

Page 882

1 Can you tell us what those are?

2 A. Number 7 is a Pinzgauer, and number 6 is a large tank, and number

3 5.

4 Q. What's number 5?

5 A. Tank.

6 Q. So 6 and 5 are tanks. All right. And what was number 2? Was

7 that a tank as well?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I believe you also said number 1. Did you call that a tank as

10 well?

11 A. It seems like a tank. I don't think it's a tank. No, it's not a

12 tank. This one here is a tank.

13 Q. And just so that we're clear, when you say "this one here," what

14 number are you referring to?

15 A. Number 5.

16 Q. Five is a tank.

17 A. I was wrong before.

18 Q. I'm sorry. When were you wrong? What are you trying to tell us?

19 A. When I said about number 2 and number 1. In fact, it's 6 and 5;

20 and 7, it's Pinzgauer.

21 Q. I'm going to have to back up for a moment, sir, just to clarify

22 this point. Let's go back to when you saw what you called tanks

23 approaching your village. I believe you originally said that you saw them

24 as number 2 and number 1. Is that correct?

25 A. No. I was wrong. It's not number 1 and number 2.

Page 883

1 Q. If you were to correct yourself then, sir, what would you say were

2 the tanks you saw?

3 A. Six, 5, and number 7 is the Pinzgauer.

4 Q. Number 7 is a Pinzgauer; is that what you're saying? And number 4

5 was a Praga; is that what you said?

6 A. Yes, the Praga.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: I note the time, Your Honours. I don't think I'm

8 going to be able to complete this witness before the adjournment.

9 Q. How many soldiers would you say -- I'm sorry. How many people in

10 uniform would you say you saw, along with three tanks and these other

11 military vehicles that you've just pointed out for us?

12 A. Groups of soldiers, five, six, some three, some four, five, not

13 more, in a tank.

14 Q. All right. Where were these - I'm going to call them military

15 vehicles - where were they located in relation to your village? Were they

16 in your village, on the outskirts of the village? Where?

17 A. Outside the village, on the asphalt road which goes from Prizren

18 to Gjakova.

19 Q. And how far away is that from the edge of your village?

20 A. The asphalt road is on the edge of the village.

21 Q. What, if anything, happened upon the arrival of these uniformed

22 people and their vehicles?

23 A. They shelled the houses. A group of families was on the hill.

24 They shot 13 people, ranging from 18 months old to 60 years old. Lots of

25 them were children. Some were injured, some seriously, some lightly.

Page 884

1 Q. How long did the shelling go on?

2 A. From 11.00 to 3.00. Four hours.

3 Q. What effect did the shelling have on the village itself, other

4 than you told us about 13 villagers being killed? What happened to the

5 houses?

6 A. As I said, they fired at the houses too, not very heavy shelling,

7 and that was it.

8 Q. Could you see from where you were -- I take it -- were you at your

9 home when this happened?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you see what was happening, if anything, to houses in the

12 outlying area of Landovica?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What was that?

15 A. Yes, I could see from my home. I could see them shelling the

16 houses. They shelled even my own home.

17 Q. What happened to the houses that were struck by shells?

18 A. Some they were destroyed, some were still standing.

19 Q. Were there any soldiers not in vehicles near the top of the hill?

20 A. No. They came by buses.

21 Q. All right. And once they arrived --

22 A. The infantry troops came.

23 Q. And what did they do?

24 A. They began to torch the houses, and killed a person, one person.

25 Avdi Morina [as interpreted] was his name. And then they put his body in

Page 885

1 the home and set fire to the home. Only his head was left.

2 Q. Was this person a relative of yours? I'm only asking that because

3 he appears to have the same last name.

4 A. No, he was not. Yes, we have the same last name, but he's a

5 Gypsy. He was a Gypsy, actually.

6 Q. Now, we'll return to the people that were killed later on in your

7 evidence, but --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. These infantry troops that came, did they come during the time

10 that the houses were being shelled by the tanks or did they come at some

11 later time, or when?

12 A. The troops came after the shelling stopped. They came at 3.00.

13 And then they began to set fire to the village.

14 Q. You say that these infantry arrived by buses. Are you able to

15 give the Court an estimate as to how many people arrived, how many

16 soldiers arrived?

17 A. Yes. About 150. I can't be sure. I couldn't tell, because I was

18 hiding myself.

19 Q. In addition to infantry, did you see any other groups of uniformed

20 individuals?

21 A. Yes. There were some militiamen and soldiers. I can't say there

22 were paramilitary troops.

23 Q. When you say "militia," is that another name for another group, or

24 does that mean soldiers or police, or what does that mean?

25 A. Police. I mean police.

Page 886

1 Q. Are they referred to as the MUP?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were those MUP police there along with the infantry troops?

4 A. Yes. Yes, they were.

5 Q. Could you see who was doing what?

6 A. Yes. I saw them setting fire to the houses, and then they began

7 to come down the village. They killed Avdi Gashi [as interpreted] and set

8 fire to his home, as I said.

9 Q. Just before we move on, sir, there's a question I want to clarify

10 with you. When you say "they," are you talking only infantry, only

11 police, both infantry and police, or who?

12 A. Together, all of them: the police and the army troops, soldiers.

13 Q. Did you see both police and infantry soldiers setting fire to

14 houses and killing people?

15 A. They didn't kill many, only three people, because the others left.

16 Q. Yes. I was going to get back to that, and this is as good a time

17 as any. When did the others leave?

18 A. They left because of the fear. I'm not clear. What do you mean?

19 Q. When in time -- now, you've told us on the 26th of March, at about

20 10.00, the police arrived -- or I'm sorry, soldiers arrived. Did they

21 leave then, did they leave during the shelling, did they leave after the

22 shelling? When?

23 A. Before the shelling, some. Some remained behind. My family left

24 five minutes before the shelling. My wife, my brother, and myself stayed

25 at home.

Page 887

1 Q. Why did your family leave?

2 A. Because the village began to be shelled and to be burned. That's

3 why.

4 Q. I thought you just told us that your family left about five

5 minutes before the shelling. Were you involved in the decision --

6 A. Yes, five minutes.

7 Q. All right. Just listen to my question. Were you personally

8 involved in the decision for them to leave?

9 A. My wife couldn't leave with them because she couldn't walk, so I

10 told her to stay with me.

11 Q. Did you instruct your family to leave or did they decide on their

12 own?

13 A. They decided to leave themselves.

14 Q. Do you know why?

15 A. Because of the shelling. How could they stay there?

16 Q. When you say "because of the shelling," had that already started

17 when they left?

18 A. Yes. A little bit before the shelling started, I told you five

19 minutes ago, they left.

20 Q. All right. I don't want to belabour the point, but the shelling

21 had not yet started when your family decided to leave. Were they afraid

22 of what would occur, or did they -- what happened?

23 A. My brother came. My family was in the cellar. My brother said,

24 "You cannot stay in the cellar. Let's go out." He took his family and

25 my family and went to the forest and to the mountain, and we stayed at

Page 888

1 home.

2 Q. All right. And you and your wife decided to stay because your

3 wife couldn't walk; is that right?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Did anyone else stay with you?

6 A. My brother too. He came to get us with them, but the shelling

7 began, so we couldn't leave. We stayed there.

8 Q. Did you stay at your house, or did you stay near the house, or

9 what did you do?

10 A. We stayed at home, in the cellar.

11 Q. How long?

12 A. I beg your pardon?

13 Q. How long did you stay in the cellar?

14 A. Until the infantry came. When they came to a cousin of mine, they

15 started burning further up, and we went out and we fled.

16 Q. Where did you go?

17 A. We went to a stream above the house about 500, 600 metres.

18 Q. And from that location, were you able to see what went on?

19 A. There is a kind of -- there was a kind of bank, and we were able

20 to hide ourselves, and we were able to see from a distance houses being

21 burnt.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: I note the time. I -- if this is a convenient

23 place to break, Your Honour --

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, it would be.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

Page 889

1 JUDGE KWON: Before we adjourn, I have one thing to ask, a favour

2 of Mr. Milosevic.

3 Mr. Milosevic, yes, it's about the noise of the loudspeaker

4 installed in front of you. At the outset of the trial, it seemed to the

5 Court that you were not willing to use the headphone offered by the

6 Tribunal, so we had the loudspeaker installed in front of you. During the

7 trial, I noticed that you turned up the volume a little louder than was

8 originally set, and I'm frankly a little bit disturbed by the noise. It's

9 a little bit too loud. So could you turn it down a little lower, or why

10 don't you use the headphones, as everybody else in the courtroom? Just

11 bear it in mind for the next --

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I shall bear that in mind.

13 I've already suggested to the Registry that they put the loudspeaker

14 behind me here. Then it will certainly be much quieter.

15 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now.

16 Mr. Morina, we're not sitting tomorrow. The Court is not

17 sitting. So we must ask you to come back, if you would, on Monday to

18 conclude your evidence. Until then, would you remember not to speak to

19 anybody about your evidence, and that does include the members of the

20 Prosecution team, until it's over.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have...

22 JUDGE MAY: Half past nine, then, on Monday.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.05 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day

25 of February, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.