Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

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1 Friday, 1 March 2002

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Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

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1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 WITNESS: WITNESS K15

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 MS. ROMANO: With the assistance of the usher, I would like the

7 witness to be shown this one-page document containing the name and the

8 date of birth of the witness. And I have copies here for the Court and

9 the defendant and the amici.

10 Examined by Ms. Romano:

11 Q. Witness, I would like to --

12 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment until it's exhibited.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit [redacted].

14 MS. ROMANO: Thanks.

15 Q. Witness, I would like for you to review this document and to read

16 it and, without saying your name, can you tell the Court if this is your

17 correct name; yes or no.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Next to your name, do you see the number K15?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Throughout these proceedings, you will be referred to by that

22 number. Do you understand?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Witness, do you also see your birth date under your name?

25 A. Yes.

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

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1 Q. Is this your correct date of birth?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. How old are you?

4 A. Twenty-five years old, I turned on the [redacted]. I was born on

5 the [redacted]. I am 25 years old.

6 Q. Where were you born?

7 A. [redacted].

8 Q. Where is [redacted] located?

9 A. [redacted]is located in Kosova.

10 Q. And have you always lived in [redacted]?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who did you live with?

13 A. I lived with my mother, with five brothers, and the wife of one of

14 my brothers.

15 Q. Did you go to school in [redacted]?

16 A. Yes, I did. I finish the primary and the elementary -- the

17 secondary school.

18 Q. What's your ethnicity?

19 A. Albanian.

20 Q. And do you know how many Albanians lived in [redacted]before March

21 1999?

22 A. No. I can't give you a precise figure.

23 Q. And how many --

24 A. Most of them are Albanians.

25 Q. But how many Albanians lived in your neighbourhood?

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1 JUDGE MAY: She said she can't give exact figures.

2 Were most of the people in your neighbourhood Albanians?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were.

4 MS. ROMANO:

5 Q. And there were also Serbs there?

6 A. Yes. Only two families were Serbs.

7 Q. Do you remember people from other villages coming to [redacted] to

8 live in [redacted] the time of 1998?

9 A. Yes. I remember many people who were displaced from their homes

10 and they came to [redacted]to live there.

11 Q. And do you know the reason why they were coming there, the reason

12 why they were displaced?

13 A. The reason was because there was terror exercised against them by

14 the Serb forces. That's why they had to leave their homes and come and

15 find shelter to more secure places.

16 Q. And did you know that because you talked to them?

17 A. Yes, yes. I have talked with many refugees who came there in my

18 neighbourhood, and they told me about what was happening in their own

19 villages.

20 Q. And -- and did this affect the life in your town?

21 A. Yes. Yes, it did.

22 Q. Was there any mistreatment of Albanians in your town?

23 A. Yes. Before the war broke out in [redacted], many people were

24 maltreated, mistreated by the Serb forces. The young people who were in

25 the town, they were not free to leave their homes because they were afraid

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

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1 of mistreatment. They had to have on them their IDs, or even if they had

2 the IDs, the Serb forces have often mistreated the youths. They were not

3 free to go out.

4 Q. When you refer to "Serb forces," what are you referring to?

5 A. I mean the Serb police. They were the ones who mistreated the

6 Albanians first.

7 Q. And did they wear uniforms?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you describe the uniforms?

10 A. I think, yes.

11 Q. What colour was the uniform?

12 A. Blue.

13 Q. Any other specifics?

14 A. No. I don't remember.

15 MS. ROMANO: Can I please have the witness shown Exhibit 18.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure I got the question

17 right.

18 MS. ROMANO: No.

19 Q. Witness, the usher will show you a series of photos, and I will

20 ask you to take a look at these photos and see if you can recognise the

21 uniform or a photo similar to the uniform you're referring to.

22 A. The police used to wear this uniform here.

23 Q. Which number?

24 A. Number 6.

25 Q. Thank you. Do you remember the date when the NATO bombing

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

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1 started?

2 A. Yes. It was 24th of March, after 8.00 when the bombing started.

3 Q. Where were you at that day?

4 A. At that moment, I was at home with my mother and my brothers when

5 we heard the news, and after the news was over, we heard again that they

6 said the NATO airstrikes started. So we were very sad. I was very sad at

7 that moment because I always feared that a tragedy was going to happen in

8 my city, even though the others were happy that the NATO bombing started.

9 I was happy, too, but still I was afraid this might create problems for us

10 to overcome the situation until we became free.

11 Q. When you say "problems," what kind of problems were you afraid of?

12 A. I was afraid because I thought that the Serb forces would expel us

13 from [redacted], too, would expel us from our homes. And like all the

14 other refugees that came to our place, we had to go somewhere else, and I

15 didn't know where that would be.

16 Q. Witness -- are you okay?

17 A. [In English] Yeah. Thank you.

18 Q. That day, you said you were at home. Did you go out that day?

19 A. [Interpretation] Yes. We went out to our neighbour's house. We

20 thought that it would be better for us to pass the night there, together

21 with many other people who were happy at NATO strikes, because we thought

22 that freedom would be close. But still we were afraid. Still we thought

23 that we would have to pass many vicissitudes before we became free again.

24 We went to our neighbour's. There were many people there. We spent all

25 the night there without having a wink of sleep, wondering what would

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1 happen to us. We were afraid that the Serb forces would come to drive us

2 away from our homes.

3 Q. And do you know if any place -- or do you know if [redacted]was

4 hit by the bombing that night?

5 A. We heard some explosions, but I don't know for sure where that

6 was.

7 Q. Did you -- did you go to town? Did you go to the centre of the

8 town that day?

9 A. No. On the next day, we went out because my brother went to buy

10 bread, and he saw that everything was -- everything was paralysed and that

11 there was no life at the moment.

12 Q. What did your brother tell you?

13 A. My brother told me that he had seen many Serb forces in the town.

14 He had seen many houses, shops burned and people being mistreated by the

15 Serb forces. On the same night, on the 24th of March, the late [redacted]

16 [redacted] was killed, along with his mother and son in their own home.

17 Q. Who --

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Ms. Romano and Witness K15, could you remember

19 that everything you say has got to be interpreted, and therefore, can you

20 slow down and leave a pause between question and answer.

21 MS. ROMANO:

22 Q. Can you slow? So coming back to what you were saying about your

23 brother, when you -- again I will just ask you, when you refer to "Serb

24 forces," what are you referring to?

25 A. He means that when he went out to buy bread, it was very difficult

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

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1 and he came out without any bread. He saw, on the way, many houses that

2 were burned down, many stores that were burned down. So the life seemed

3 paralysed in our city at the moment.

4 Q. But when he said that the Serb forces were doing that, who are the

5 Serb forces?

6 A. I didn't understand you. I'm sorry.

7 Q. Did your brother tell you who was doing the burning, who was doing

8 all the things in downtown?

9 A. They were committed by the Serbian police; the army and the police

10 forces.

11 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a man named [redacted]. So you said

12 he was killed. How do you know that?

13 A. I know this because we heard it from our neighbours. They told us

14 that [redacted] with his mother and son and his daughter were killed,

15 and this is true.

16 Q. Do you know [redacted]?

17 A. My father was a very good friend of his, so I knew him. I was

18 very young, very little, but I know very well that he was a very good

19 friend of our father, and he helped us often.

20 Q. And -- thank you. So you stayed in your house. And do you

21 remember where were you, if you were still in your house on the 28th of

22 March, on the Bajram, the holiday day?

23 A. Yes. On the 28th of March, we left our house and headed for a

24 village to find shelter there. We left for [redacted] where we stayed for

25 some time. And then after a couple of hours, we started --

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

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1 Q. I will stop you here. You were in your house, and you decided to

2 leave. Why did you decide to leave?

3 A. We decided to leave because the Serb forces forced us to leave our

4 home.

5 Q. Again, Witness, Serb forces; who are the Serb forces? Who ordered

6 you to leave?

7 A. The police and the army forces. They tried to take positions in

8 the neighbouring houses, so we had to leave our house, and they forced us

9 to do so by -- they forced us to do so.

10 Q. How did they do that? What kind of force did they use?

11 A. I remember very well that everyone came out in the street, and

12 they said that, "You should leave your homes because this is not the place

13 for you to stay." So we all left our homes.

14 Q. But, Witness, did the police or any soldiers come to your house

15 and order you to leave?

16 A. The Serb police and army were a little bit away from my home, and

17 they have forced the others to leave their homes. So we did not wait for

18 them to come to our home, too, because we were afraid that something worse

19 might happen to us. So we left the house ourselves.

20 Q. And from your house, could you see the police and the soldiers who

21 were in your neighbourhood?

22 A. They were not very close to my house, they were a little bit away

23 from it.

24 Q. Could you identify how they were dressed?

25 A. They -- yes. Yes.

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

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1 Q. Could you see their uniforms?

2 A. For the moment, no, but later we did, in passing.

3 Q. We'll get there. So who left the house with you?

4 A. My mother, my brothers; all of us. And along with our neighbours.

5 They -- all of us left. Our neighbours, our cousins.

6 Q. And where did you go?

7 A. We went to a village, [redacted], where we stayed for a couple of

8 hours, and there we saw that we couldn't stay there longer.

9 Q. Did you walk your way to [redacted]?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How many people were going with you to [redacted], apart from our

12 family? Approximately how many people?

13 A. There were many people there.

14 Q. How far was between your -- [redacted], your town, and [redacted]?

15 A. We didn't walk long. Maybe half an hour or one hour at the most.

16 Q. And do you remember see anything on your way to [redacted]?

17 A. Yes. We saw Serb forces with Pinzgauers.

18 Q. Again, Witness, what kind of Serb forces?

19 A. Police and army forces.

20 Q. And you said they had equipment.

21 A. Yes. Yes. For the moment, we saw them only with Pinzgauers,

22 walking -- I mean, patrolling by.

23 Q. Can you describe the Pinzgauers? If you see a photo, do you think

24 you will be able to identify?

25 A. I think so, yes.

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

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1 MS. ROMANO: Can I have Exhibit 17 be shown to the witness.

2 Q. Can you take a look at these photos and see if you can find a

3 photograph of a Pinzgauer.

4 A. Something like this.

5 Q. Which number?

6 A. Number 13.

7 Q. Thank you. Were the people -- were this convoy of people stopped

8 at any time?

9 A. The column of people was left by a mosque near -- in [redacted], and

10 people were thinking of how to get out of this difficult situation. And

11 they all went in a direction where they thought best to spend the night,

12 and so about 500 people went on to the village of [redacted].

13 Q. How long did you stay in [redacted]before you left to [redacted]?

14 A. We stayed there several hours.

15 Q. And who did go with you to [redacted]?

16 A. My uncle with his wife and children and my uncle's neighbours with

17 their families and three brothers.

18 Q. And again, Witness, on your way from [redacted]to [redacted], what did

19 you see?

20 A. On the way, we saw Pinzgauer there, too. We saw Pinzgauer going

21 up and down, but they didn't stop us. We didn't have any problem.

22 Q. And was the situation better in [redacted]?

23 A. No. We stayed there in a house near the woods there.

24 Q. Where did you stay in [redacted]?

25 A. Me?

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1 Q. Where did you stay there?

2 A. We stayed with a workmate of my uncle's.

3 Q. And while you were in [redacted], do you remember seeing any

4 shelling?

5 A. Yes. We heard shelling in the village of [redacted].

6 Q. And you decided to leave [redacted]?

7 A. Yes. Yes. We left [redacted]again, because there was no way we

8 could stay. We didn't have proper living conditions, and we just had to

9 go.

10 Q. And from [redacted], did you see anything happening in the

11 surrounding villages?

12 A. Yes. We saw refugees who, after a few days, came from [redacted], and

13 they, too, had to leave their houses because there was shelling, heavy

14 shelling in that village, and a lot of refugees came to us in [redacted].

15 Q. After you left [redacted], where did you go?

16 JUDGE MAY: Before you get there, how long did you stay in

17 [redacted]for?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We stayed there nine days.

19 MS. ROMANO:

20 Q. After the nine days, you left [redacted]. Where did you go?

21 A. We went back home because we didn't have anywhere to stay. It was

22 war everywhere. There was no place of refuge.

23 Q. So you went back to [redacted]?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you come back to [redacted]the same way?

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1 A. We went through a few lanes because we were scared of Serbian

2 forces that were patrolling the main roads. So we went by side roads.

3 Q. And were you stopped at any time?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you remember seeing any checkpoints?

6 A. We saw -- we saw Serbian forces moving, but we didn't see any

7 checkpoints.

8 Q. And Serbian forces, who are Serbian forces?

9 A. It means, after the NATO shelling, the Serbian forces were in

10 [redacted]. That means the police and the army.

11 Q. When you arrived in [redacted], how did you find your house?

12 A. When we got home to [redacted], our house was partly demolished by

13 explosions. But we stayed some time there, even though it was in that

14 state, even though it was very difficult to live there, very poor

15 conditions, there was no way of living there.

16 Q. And how long did you stay in [redacted]?

17 A. We stayed a very short time, until 14th of April, when we were

18 forced to leave our house again.

19 Q. What happened that you were forced to leave your house?

20 A. Because the Serbian army and police again started removing people

21 from their homes.

22 Q. Did they go to your home?

23 A. They came to a neighbour, and this neighbour told us that the

24 police were telling everybody to leave and this wasn't our place. So we,

25 again, didn't wait and left because there were -- there were a lot of

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1 cases of mistreatment of young people, and we could have remained there.

2 We could have been left for dead there.

3 Q. And were any of your neighbours hurt or mistreated?

4 A. I remember that at this time, when we left our homes, there were

5 two neighbours who were killed by Serbian forces, as I have heard. I

6 don't know how they died, but people have told me that they died.

7 Q. So you decided to leave [redacted]. Where did you go?

8 A. We went to my uncle in the village of [redacted].

9 Q. And were there other refugees in [redacted]?

10 A. Yes. There were refugees, and the situation was no better than in

11 [redacted], but we went there, together with my family.

12 Q. And did anything happen while you were in [redacted]?

13 A. We heard a lot of noise there. We heard some explosions. We only

14 stayed one night there.

15 Q. So what did you do the next day?

16 A. The next day, at 4.00, I went outside and I saw a lot of people in

17 the road, and they had -- I took the courage to go out and ask what was

18 going on, and there were a lot of people with trucks, cars, tractors, who

19 had gone out onto the road, and they had -- they said that they had been

20 forced out of their homes because Serbian forces - police and army - had

21 told them to leave Kosova and to go to Albania.

22 Q. So you -- you talked to them?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And so what did you do after -- after talking to them?

25 A. After talking to them, I went into the house and asked for my

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1 mother and my uncle, and they didn't believe me, and they thought I was

2 just scared. But I told them to go out and see what was happening. And

3 then they saw what was happening. We all started going out and joining

4 the convoy.

5 Q. How many people, approximately, you saw in the convoy?

6 A. There were a lot of people. You couldn't see the beginning or the

7 end of this convoy.

8 Q. So what you and your family decided to do?

9 A. We, too, decided to join the convoy like everybody else, because

10 we were forced to go out, everybody.

11 Q. How many people left with you?

12 A. You mean of my family?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. The entire family, all of us; uncle -- four uncles, mother,

15 everybody.

16 Q. And you joined the convoy?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. For how many days did you walk in this convoy?

19 A. We walked from the 15th of April, Thursday, to the 18th.

20 Q. And during all this time, were you stopped at any time?

21 A. Yes. During this time, there was a lot -- we had a lot of

22 mistreatment from the police and army, and we saw many people being

23 maltreated, killed by Serbian forces. The Serbian forces asked for money

24 from everybody, gold, everything. There was a lot of mistreatment.

25 Q. Can you describe any of the mistreatments that you saw?

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1 A. Yes. I saw cases of mistreatment of my family.

2 Q. Can you give us an example?

3 A. Yes. It's true that during the journey, Serbian forces stopped my

4 uncle and grabbed him and asked for money, and then they separated his

5 son. And he had no money to give them or anything, and then they

6 mistreated him and beat him. And at one point, they released him. But

7 because there were -- there were a lot of people who were mistreated by

8 Serbian forces there.

9 Q. And during the four days that you walked in this convoy, did you

10 stop any time to eat or to rest?

11 A. I remember at the front of the convoy, we stopped before night

12 fell, where a Serbian soldier said, "You can't stop. You should keep

13 going. Get to Albania as fast as possible." So we were unable to stop,

14 and we were mistreated by Serbian forces. We had to walk all the time.

15 Q. Were there a lot of children and old people?

16 A. Yes. There were children, old people, paralysed people. My uncle

17 was paralysed, in a wheelchair. There were a lot of people.

18 Q. Thank you. Did the convoy reach the border?

19 A. On the 18th of April, we reached [redacted], and we waited there.

20 They thought -- we thought they would let us go to Albania and leave

21 Kosova, but this didn't happen. We stayed there several hours, and a few

22 -- after few hours, the police came and told us - who had been stationed

23 in a place lower down - and they told us we couldn't go to Albania because

24 the border was closed and we had to go back into Kosova again.

25 Q. Did they tell you why the border was closed?

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1 A. Their reason was that there was nowhere where we could go. But

2 they -- so they sent us back, and they wouldn't let us go to Albania.

3 Q. And you and the rest of the people, where did you go? Did you

4 return?

5 A. We went to a building a few metres away and sheltered there and

6 waited a few hours, and then the Serbian army and police came and took us

7 with a truck and told us that we should go back, back to our own homes.

8 Q. How many trucks did you see?

9 A. There were three trucks. And some people went, and some people

10 stayed there.

11 Q. And do you remember seeing who was driving the trucks?

12 A. I know that the police and the army told us. I don't remember.

13 Q. And, Witness, with the trucks, they take you back to [redacted]?

14 A. No.

15 Q. What happened?

16 A. After this, they stopped us at a village called [redacted], and they

17 told us that other trucks would come and take us home. But this didn't

18 happen, so we started walking, and a few hours later there was very heavy

19 mistreatment at the hands of the Serbian army and police.

20 Q. You said they never came, so you started walking back to

21 [redacted]. Were there other people with you at that time?

22 A. Yes. There were a lot of people.

23 Q. And you said that there was a very heavy mistreatment. What

24 happened while you were walking in this convoy?

25 A. After a few hours walking, the Serbian army and police came, and

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1 they stopped the convoy, and they came in cars and started mistreating

2 people. And then they came up to my mother and asked my mother where her

3 husband was, and my mother said her husband had died, and they said, "No,

4 your husband is a soldier." And my mother said, "No. I don't have a

5 husband." And my mother said her husband had died. And they went up to

6 my brother and he had a red handkerchief on his head, and they asked why.

7 And then they said, "He's a boy." And then they came up to me and they

8 started to mistreat me and asked for money, and they said, "Come to us in

9 our car."

10 Q. I will stop you, Witness. Can you describe the person who came

11 and talked to you and your mother. Was he -- how was he dressed? Was he

12 wearing any uniform?

13 A. Yes. And he had a handkerchief round his head.

14 Q. And what colour was the uniform?

15 A. Green.

16 Q. If I show you a photo, you will be able to recognise?

17 MS. ROMANO: Can I have the witness be known Exhibit 18 again,

18 please.

19 Q. Again, looking at the series of photos you have in front of you,

20 can you see in any of the photos a uniform similar to the uniform that man

21 was wearing at the time?

22 A. Similar to number 8. He had bandannas, but the colours are the

23 same. Something like that.

24 Q. Thank you. So, Witness, you said that you -- you asked him --

25 sorry. He said to you that he wanted to take you away from the convoy.

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1 How did it happen?

2 A. Yes. He came up to me and said, "Come in a car with me." I

3 thought he was making a mistake, and I waited for him to say something

4 else. But he grabbed hold of me and said, "Come, because you are a

5 whore." And then he hit me and slapped me and said, "Come in the car with

6 me," and he pushed me into the car.

7 Q. Were you the only person that was taken away from the convoy?

8 A. There was another girl in the car.

9 Q. So you and another girl were taken into a car?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. By this man? Was this man the only one?

12 A. There were many others. There were six cars with soldiers, but we

13 were taken by two Serbian soldiers.

14 Q. Two Serbian soldiers. And in the car, did they -- did they tell

15 you anything? Did they talk to you?

16 A. When they pushed us into the car, I asked this girl where they

17 were taking us, and she said -- said, "Don't say anything." And they took

18 us in an unknown direction, and they took us out of the car, and one took

19 me and another took the other girl. And the one who took me told me to

20 take off my clothes, but I refused.

21 Q. What did you do?

22 A. I was very upset because I didn't know what they wanted me to do,

23 and I thought they were going to kill me. But I still refused to get --

24 to strip. And he started to mistreat me, and I fainted. But he started

25 to take off my clothes.

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1 Q. Where was this place, Witness? It was an open field?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. It was far away from the place where he took you from the convoy?

4 A. We couldn't see the people in the convoy, but it wasn't all that

5 far. We couldn't see the people in the convoy, and they couldn't see us.

6 Q. And what happened to the other girl?

7 A. The soldier -- a soldier took another girl and took her in another

8 direction, and then the man started to rape me. And he said, "You would

9 become a woman. You will become a whore." And then his mistreatment

10 started. He grabbed me by the head and began --

11 Q. Let's take a break. You said that he tried to take your clothes

12 and you refused. Did he threaten you at that time?

13 A. Yes. I refused, and he took my clothes off and started to rape

14 me.

15 Q. Which clothes?

16 A. My clothes and my trousers, my underpants.

17 Q. And you said that he raped you. I'm sorry, but I have to ask some

18 specifics the Court will need to know. What did he do to you?

19 A. It's the truth. Besides his rape, he started other kinds of

20 mistreatment. I remember very well how he grabbed me by the hair and

21 forced his penis in my mouth and began a lot of mistreatment. After that,

22 he started to rape me, so at every moment I was -- it was very difficult

23 for me to cope with this mistreatment of his, and he began to rape me.

24 And I know that I was a virgin, and I had a lot of pain. He wouldn't

25 leave me go -- he didn't leave me go until I had become a woman.

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Page 1364

1 Q. When you say "become a woman," what do you refer with that?

2 A. I mean until I had lost my virginity.

3 Q. So he penetrated you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. During all the time that he was mistreating you, Witness, did he

6 threaten you with any weapon? Did he show you any weapon?

7 A. He -- he took out of his car all his equipment that he had for a

8 massacre, and he said, "You have to do what I say. Look at these things."

9 And he started to say that, "We are paid by Serbia for everything we do,

10 and you must do what I say." And then he beat me and raped me and put his

11 penis in my mouth and all these things until he realised that he had done

12 everything that he had in mind to do.

13 Q. How many times did he rape you?

14 A. Until -- until he took my virginity, he raped me. Sometimes he

15 grabbed my head and put his penis in my mouth and then he raped me until

16 he saw that I had started to bleed, and at that moment, I had a lot of

17 bleeding. And then he wiped me with a piece of paper and said, "Now you

18 are a woman. Now you are a whore."

19 Q. Thank you, Witness. Did you feel like you could do anything to

20 defend yourselves during all this time?

21 A. No.

22 Q. At one point did he let you go?

23 A. The moment when he was on top of me, another soldier came and they

24 talked among themselves. And one said to the other, "Have you made a

25 woman out of this girl?" And he said, "One we'll send to the convoy and

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Page 1365

1 another we'll keep here." And they wanted to take me, but I fainted and

2 fell to the ground, and the other one who was -- came after him started to

3 mistreat me and also put his penis in my mouth and mistreated me like the

4 first one did.

5 Q. So after the second one raped you also, did they let you go?

6 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Don't answer that. She said he

7 mistreated her like the first one. Just ask her what the second one did.

8 MS. ROMANO:

9 Q. Witness, what did the second man do to you?

10 A. The second began to put his penis into my mouth, like the first

11 one. I can't remember because I was very distressed.

12 Q. Did he do anything else, apart from that?

13 A. They were talking amongst themselves about me. One was saying,

14 "We'll tie her up here." And another one said, "Let her go because now

15 she's a whore and she's not wanted any more." But before I left, I was

16 bending to take my clothes and leave, but one of them hit me on the back

17 and I fell on the ground, and then they left. And they left me there

18 alone.

19 Q. Thank you, Witness. Did you go back to the convoy after that?

20 A. Yes. I put my clothes on and I started moving towards the column,

21 but I didn't have any shoes because I couldn't find them. I was barefoot.

22 And when I reached the pavement, a few metres away I saw some people who

23 were stopped there, and they were waiting for me, because some people had

24 said that, "We're not leaving this place until she returns." And they

25 were trying to force them to go, but they were waiting for me. When I

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Page 1366

1 arrived there, there were many people waiting. And an old woman

2 approached me, and she said told me that, "We can see that you're with

3 bloodstains on your face. What have they done to you? Go to your mother,

4 your mother is over there, and try to calm down."

5 At that moment, I was very distressed about what had happened. At

6 that moment, it was very difficult for me even to walk after all that

7 mistreatment that I went through, and my back was aching.

8 Q. Witness, do you know if the other girl came back also to the

9 convoy?

10 A. Yes. Yes, she returned too. She told me that the soldier who

11 took her away told her, "You can now go because the other girl who was

12 with us, she will not go. She will stay here."

13 Q. Thank you, Witness. Did you tell your family what happened to

14 you?

15 A. No. At that moment, I didn't dare do that, because they told me

16 -- they told us not to tell anything about what happened. But at that

17 moment, my mother didn't know, didn't have the slightest idea what had

18 happened to me. But my clothes were bloodstained, as was my face. And

19 then we started to move on and we arrived at a warehouse.

20 Q. Where was this warehouse?

21 A. It was the warehouse where they stored [redacted]in the village of

22 [redacted].

23 Q. And what happened while you were in that warehouse? How many

24 people did you see at that warehouse?

25 A. There were many people, about 5.000, in the same building. But

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Page 1367

1 there were also many people in the street, on tractors, and they were

2 stationed there because there was not enough room in the warehouse for

3 everybody.

4 Q. Did you see any police or soldiers while you were there?

5 A. I remember well the following day when we were stationed there,

6 the police. I remember that -- that a camera from Serbia had arrived, and

7 they started to record, to interview everybody who was there.

8 Q. How do you know it was a Serb camera?

9 A. The people there were saying that the Serbs were asking them,

10 "Look what NATO has done to you." And there we realised that it was a

11 Serbian camera. And then they brought a truck full of bread, and they

12 started to distribute bread among us. They -- they tried to distribute

13 bread among us so that the Albanians could start thinking well about them.

14 Q. Did they ask you or the other people to do or to say anything

15 while they were filming?

16 A. I'm not clear about the question. Can you say that again, please?

17 Q. While the Serb camera, or the camera that you saw, while they were

18 there and they were filming, did they ask the people to say or to do

19 something in front of the camera?

20 A. I saw several people near the camera, but in reality, I do not

21 know more details because I was still shocked by what I had been submitted

22 to. At that moment, I was feeling so bad about all I had been through,

23 but then I could see people -- I could see people distributing bread and

24 telling the Albanians there, "Look what NATO has done to you." And I --

25 they were speaking in Serbian, and they started asking us whether we were

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Page 1368

1 in need of a doctor or anything.

2 Q. When did you leave the warehouse?

3 A. We stayed there several times. It was up until Thursday, I think.

4 We stayed there up until Thursday. It was about the 22nd.

5 Q. And what happened on Thursday?

6 A. In the morning, several trucks arrived and -- and some people who

7 managed to get on board these trucks --

8 Q. Who provided --

9 A. -- we were told --

10 Q. Who provided these trucks?

11 A. The police, the Serbian police.

12 Q. And how many trucks did you see?

13 A. Three trucks. For the moment, that's what I saw. And some of us

14 went there.

15 Q. And were the trucks civilian trucks or military trucks?

16 A. They were civilian trucks.

17 Q. After the trucks arrived --

18 JUDGE MAY: Before we go on, how long were you at the warehouse?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We stayed there from the 18th of

20 April. Four days we stayed there.

21 JUDGE MAY: Would you tell us again the name of the village where

22 the warehouse was.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [redacted].

24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

25 MS. ROMANO:

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Page 1369

1 Q. Witness, after the trucks arrived, can you describe what happened?

2 A. After the trucks arrived, we were driven back towards [redacted],

3 and we were left near a village, [redacted].

4 Q. Coming back a little bit before -- while you were in the

5 warehouse. All the people who were in the warehouse, were they taken away

6 with the trucks?

7 A. Some of them. As many people as the trucks could carry.

8 Q. Do you remember if all the trucks, if they -- if everybody was

9 transported by the trucks; men, women, children? Did they make any

10 separation?

11 A. Some of the people who were there. Whoever could get on. We had

12 to be separated because it was not possible for all the family to get on.

13 Q. Just a moment. Do you remember seeing the policemen separating

14 men?

15 A. When are you asking about?

16 Q. At the time you were at that warehouse and at the time after the

17 trucks arrived.

18 A. No.

19 Q. So after the trucks arrived and you and your family were taken

20 away, where did you go?

21 A. We went up to a village, [redacted], where they left us. And they

22 told us to go back to our homes. At that moment, we saw Serb police and

23 soldiers who started to separate young men and take them away to Serbian

24 prisons.

25 Q. How do you know that?

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Page 1370

1 A. I know because I remember when my uncle told my brother to hide,

2 saying that, "They may come and take you too."

3 Q. What happened after?

4 A. After that, we went back home. There, the situation was the same,

5 just as we left it. But there was no way out for us but to go back to our

6 home.

7 Q. So you went back to [redacted]?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when you arrived to [redacted], how did you find your house?

10 A. The house was very destroyed by the shelling. Our house is old,

11 and it was not in a position to cope with all the explosions, and the

12 house was destroyed.

13 Q. Did you stay there anyway?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What happened after?

16 A. We stayed there several days, for several days, and a soldier

17 turned up to our door and told us, "All of you folk must write on your

18 doors that you are in and you will not have any problems." We did what he

19 told us to, and after several days, the Serbian army came to our house and

20 to the houses surrounding ours and began to drive people out and get them

21 together in the [redacted]market.

22 Q. Do you remember when? Which day was that?

23 A. Sometime in May. The 17th or the 18th of May.

24 Q. So you and your family went to the market?

25 A. All my family and all the people who lived there went to the

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Page 1371

1 market. They put everybody inside and began to separate men from women

2 and took them away to Serbian gaols.

3 Q. Who did they take to the Serbian gaols?

4 A. The Serbian police took my five brothers and many people who I

5 knew, who lived in my neighbourhood.

6 Q. So, Witness, they separated men from women and they took the men

7 away to Serbian prisons. That's what happened?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And they took also your five brothers?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know what happened to your brothers?

12 A. We know that they were sent to the prison of [redacted]. And when

13 we got together again after the war, they told us about what had happened.

14 Q. What did they tell?

15 A. They told us that when they were separated from us, they were sent

16 to the [redacted]prison, and they were being mistreated there, including

17 children. All were being mistreated. All the Albanians were being

18 mistreated. And after some time, they were taken to the prison of

19 [redacted].

20 Q. And from [redacted], where did they take your brothers to?

21 A. After holding them in the [redacted]prison, they were sent to

22 Albania.

23 Q. Who sent them to Albania?

24 A. The police sent them to Albania.

25 Q. And do you know how did they get to Albania?

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Page 1372

1 A. They told us that they were sent to Albania on buses. I remember

2 very well that my elder brother told me that at the moment when they

3 released them from the Serbian prisons, they had told them that they would

4 be sent to Serbia and we would kill them -- they would kill them. And

5 they were travelling, and on the way to where they were going, they were

6 terrified at the thought of what they were told and that they would be

7 killed. And then they were taken to Albania.

8 Q. Witness, did your brothers tell you if they were asked to show

9 documents when they were crossing the border?

10 A. I think so, but my brothers did not have any ID cards, ID papers

11 when they came back from Albania. Before we left, everybody had them.

12 Q. Thank you. And what happened to you while you were in the market

13 with your family?

14 A. When all the males were separated, we were directed towards the

15 commune of [redacted]. I'm sorry. We saw many people who were lined up,

16 and they were being given identity -- Serbian identity papers.

17 Q. And when they -- when they gave the Serbian identity papers, did

18 they ask your identities?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So you had to give them your identity -- your Albanian identities

21 in order to receive a Serbian identity?

22 A. Can you say that again, please?

23 JUDGE MAY: Just tell us what happened about these identities.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They gave us the papers.

25 JUDGE MAY: They gave you papers. Did you have to give them

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Page 1382

1 anything in return?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They gave us the documents, and

3 they told us to go back to our houses. They gave us those documents so

4 that we could be free to move around, to go to the shops and to produce

5 that identity document if asked to.

6 MS. ROMANO:

7 Q. And who was giving you the identities?

8 A. There were some -- there were some women there who -- but around

9 them there were many soldiers and policemen who were getting people into a

10 line so that they could wait to collect their document.

11 Q. So after having -- receiving this identity, did you go back to

12 your house and did you stay in [redacted]?

13 A. After we got the identity papers, we went to -- back to [redacted].

14 But I was greatly shocked by what had happened to me and the situation

15 back home was very difficult. And also knowing that my brothers were in

16 Serbian prisons, we had to leave our house again because we feared that

17 the same thing would happen again. So we left our houses and we went to

18 our uncle in the [redacted]neighbourhood, and they gave us some money and,

19 from there, we went to [redacted].

20 Q. How much money did they give to you?

21 A. One ticket to go to [redacted]cost a hundred marks. And they gave

22 money for all of us; 400 marks altogether.

23 Q. So you bought the ticket and you went to Montenegro?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. Again, Witness, the last question. Why did you leave? Why did

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Page 1383

1 you decide to leave?

2 A. We decided to leave because my mother had many problems with me.

3 I was ill at the time. I was traumatised. I could no longer live in that

4 place because the soldiers, the Serbian soldiers and police were around

5 there, and I couldn't put up with that situation with the Serbian police

6 and army there. So we -- I went out of the house and we saw that it was

7 just us there. Everybody had left. So we decided to leave.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MS. ROMANO: No more questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

11 JUDGE KWON: Before we move on, I'll just ask a question to

12 Ms. Romano. According to the summary you gave me, the testimony of this

13 witness seems to be related to -- allegedly related to the murder charges.

14 That is paragraph 66. You indicated this testimony is related to

15 paragraph 66. That means the murder charges. Is it correct, and if yes,

16 what are the specific subparagraphs of 66 to which it is related? Could

17 you ...

18 MS. ROMANO: It's not any specific paragraph but the killings,

19 because the paragraph 66 states: "The killings occurred in a widespread

20 and systematic manner throughout the province of Kosovo and resulting in

21 the deaths of numerous men, women, and children." The paragraph includes

22 some examples. She is testifying about the widespread and systematic

23 manner. She's testifying about the other killings that she saw while she

24 was being deported or while she was leaving her home.

25 JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated] Okay.

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Page 1384

1 MS. ROMANO: That clarifies, Your Honour?

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, do you want to ask the witness some

3 questions? If so, after the break.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now.

6 Witness K15, we're going to adjourn now for a break for half an

7 hour. Would you remember in this break and any others there may be in

8 your evidence not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over,

9 and that includes the members of the Prosecution team.

10 Half past eleven, please.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.57 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am sorry that this young girl was

15 the victim of rape, of course, if it is all true, and I'm not going to ask

16 her any questions with respect to those events, but I would like to ask

17 her something with respect to the other things that were said.

18 As far as rape is concerned, it wasn't done certainly by the army

19 and police but by criminals. The army and the police arrested criminals

20 of that kind even for attempted rape.

21 Gentlemen, I would like to suggest, otherwise, that you take a

22 look at the latest report of the British Helsinki committee, describing

23 the present situation in Kosovo as catastrophic; and they say that

24 particularly young Albanians are saying that the worst things that they

25 can see every day is rape and that they themselves say that, under the

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Page 1385

1 Serbs, there was no rape. But rape is a speciality of Albanian criminals

2 that they used in 1987 and 1988.

3 JUDGE MAY: You can make your submissions, but while we've got the

4 witness here, she's here to deal with any evidence. So deal with any

5 questions which you have, please.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Let me start from the end, because it's easier

9 for me that way. You said that they separated the men, and your brothers

10 were among them, your cousins and relatives and so on, and that they took

11 them off to prison. Is that right?

12 A. Yes, it's true they separated the men and took them to prison.

13 Q. In the statement you made -- in your testimony a moment ago, you

14 said that you went to Montenegro because -- and prior to that you had

15 taken some money from your uncles on both sides, your mother's side and

16 your father's side. So neither of your uncles, that means, were in prison

17 because you were able to go to them to get the money; is that right?

18 A. No, I didn't say that. I said I went to my uncles on my mother's

19 side, and I found there only their wives, because even my grandfather, who

20 is 70, and all my uncles were taken to the prison. And it's not true that

21 I took the money from my uncle but from his wife, because the uncles were

22 all in gaol, my grandfather too.

23 Q. All right. That seems to be a new point but I seem to have heard

24 that you went to your two uncles to get the money from them and they gave

25 you the money. That's what I understood.

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Page 1386

1 My second question is this: In your original statement, you said

2 precisely speaking about the day you left for Montenegro, that you had

3 left to Montenegro with a number of people, and you enumerate all the

4 people you left with, including your brother. That means your brother who

5 went with you to Montenegro wasn't in fact in prison, was he?

6 A. It is true that my brothers were in prison with the exception of

7 the youngest one. The others were all in prison. And until we came from

8 [redacted], we didn't know anything about them.

9 Q. All right. But your brother did go to Montenegro with you when

10 you left; is that right?

11 A. Yes, the youngest one did.

12 Q. You said that they kept these men in prison for a period of ten

13 days, and later on they told you that they spent those ten days there.

14 Now, did their stay -- while they were there, what did they ask them? How

15 did they question them or interrogate them? What did they tell you about

16 that?

17 A. They told me about the mistreatment by the police and the army

18 soldiers who maltreated all of them. He told me that a Serb asked --

19 ordered him to kiss another guy as if they were lovers, and he told me

20 that they were beaten up. They were not allowed to eat, and they were

21 ordered to sing in Serbian and to shout in Serbian, "Serbia, Serbia."

22 They didn't tell me anything good about the gaol but only maltreatment and

23 mistreatment.

24 Q. Did they tell you that they questioned them with respect to

25 information about the KLA?

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Page 1387

1 A. Yes. They questioned them also about the KLA. But the fact is

2 that my brothers were not KLA members.

3 Q. And as they established that they were not members of the KLA,

4 they released them, them and all the others, ten days later. That's what

5 you said, isn't it?

6 A. They were released and sent -- I don't know what the reason was

7 for their release. Or maybe they were lucky enough to escape death in the

8 Serb hands. And they went to Albania. It's a fact that they went to

9 Albania.

10 Q. You said that the last time you came, according to the statement,

11 when you came to [redacted], to your own house, that it had been destroyed

12 by shelling. And in your original statement, it says that it was damaged

13 after a NATO attack, including the roof of the house.

14 A. My house, in fact, was destroyed as a result of NATO bombs because

15 our house was not situated so close to the military barracks and station,

16 but the blast was so powerful, and my house was very sold, so it was all

17 ruined as a result of the shelling.

18 Q. Yes, as the result of NATO bombing of facilities in the

19 neighbourhood, in the environs.

20 A. No. In my neighbourhood they did not bomb because the barracks,

21 military barracks, were located in [redacted], in [redacted], but not close

22 to my house. And there was no NATO bombing there.

23 Q. But as you yourself said, nevertheless it was destroyed and

24 damaged as a consequence of the bombing; is that right?

25 JUDGE MAY: The witness has said that. So no need to repeat it.

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Page 1388

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Yes.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Do you know that not once in the course of the entire war did the

4 army of Yugoslav or Serb police shell facilities in [redacted]?

5 JUDGE MAY: Witness K15, if you can answer that question do, but

6 if you can't, say that you don't know.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you repeat the question,

8 please?

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Do you know that not once during the entire war did the army of

11 Yugoslavia and the police shell [redacted]? Are you aware of

12 that?

13 A. No. I don't know. I can't give you an answer. I don't simply

14 understand.

15 Q. All right. Thank you. You said that there were a lot of police

16 and army in [redacted].

17 A. Yes. Yes, there were many, especially on the day that we went to

18 the marketplace. We were really surprised to see so many of them. It

19 seemed to me that all the Serbian army was there. The park was full of

20 soldiers.

21 Q. That's why I asked you whether you know that it was never shelled,

22 because otherwise they would be shelling themselves, in fact.

23 JUDGE MAY: She said she didn't know, so she can't comment on

24 that.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

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Page 1389

1 Q. Do you know about the bombing of the centre of [redacted] by NATO?

2 A. No, I don't know.

3 Q. Do you know about the bombing of [redacted], above [redacted],

4 also by NATO?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What bombing do you know about? The bombing that, in fact,

7 destroyed your house, what bombing was that then?

8 A. I know that when NATO hit the Serb targets, everything shook up.

9 It was a very powerful blast. So the houses -- the doors and the windows

10 shook, and we knew that they were shooting. And we heard shelling

11 surrounding where -- shooting surrounding -- in the surrounding area. I

12 think it was the Serbs who did that.

13 Q. Did you see any shelling yourself?

14 A. No, I did not. I just remember that on that day when the

15 inhabitants of [redacted] were driven out and the males were separated from

16 the females and taken to the prison, I remember very well that there was a

17 lot of shelling coming from a close-by location, maybe from some village,

18 but I didn't see them with my own eyes.

19 Q. You said that the police went to search the houses.

20 A. I said that a soldier came to our house and said that, "You have

21 to write a letter that you are at home."

22 Q. To write a list of those living in the house, is that it?

23 A. We were supposed to write that we are at home and to put that

24 letter on the door so that everybody knew that we were inside.

25 Q. Do you know that the police searched houses, looking for members

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Page 1390

1 of the KLA?

2 A. I don't know that.

3 Q. Do you know of any incident in which the police were shot at from

4 houses in [redacted]?

5 A. Who shot at them? I don't understand.

6 Q. Do you know that anybody shot at the policemen from the houses

7 that were being searched?

8 A. You think that the Albanians are firing at the Serbian police?

9 Q. Yes, that's what I meant.

10 A. I don't think so. The Serbian police didn't allow us to stay at

11 home, to keep anything, let alone weapons.

12 Q. I'm not talking about your weapons, but I'm asking you whether you

13 ever heard of a case of that type in some other house, another incident

14 perhaps.

15 A. No.

16 Q. At the beginning of your statement, that is to say, in the written

17 statement you made, you said that when the bombing started, you were very

18 frightened because your house was very old and that you didn't think it

19 would survive.

20 A. Yes, because it was very old. But we went to the neighbour's

21 house to spend the night, to be together with others. But we were very

22 happy at NATO airstrikes. But it's a fact that our house was very old

23 indeed, and it was kind of very fragile.

24 Q. You were very frightened, but you were very happy. Am I to

25 understand your answer in that way?

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Page 1391

1 A. Yes, I was very happy, but it is also true that I had kind of

2 premonition. I felt sad. I felt that something bad would happen to me.

3 Q. After the bombing, you started to flee from [redacted].

4 A. Some days afterwards.

5 Q. And you explained that. You said that you went to the village of

6 [redacted], and according to your statement, it says that it took you 20

7 minutes to get there.

8 A. Something like that. It was not far away.

9 Q. I'm asking you that because, at the insistence of the Prosecution,

10 you said that it took you one hour to get there a moment ago. But my

11 question is the following: In your statement, you say -- I mean the

12 written statement, you say the following: "Nobody actually ordered us to

13 go or told us to go." And I am reading verbatim what it says in your

14 statement. And then you continue and say the following: You describe the

15 same event, and you mention that you saw the army and the police, and I

16 quote you again, you said, "We saw them along the road, but they didn't

17 do anything to us."

18 A. We went there to the village. I didn't have a watch. It never

19 crossed my mind to see how long it took us. I know that we walked and

20 that it was not very far away from my house. Maybe a couple of minutes.

21 We went there, and even there, we were not safe, so we had to leave that

22 place too.

23 Q. Yes. But can we note that nobody actually ordered you to go or

24 told you to go? These are your words. This is what you actually said.

25 And that the soldiers and the policemen that you met along the way didn't

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Page 1392

1 do anything to you. And I'm quoting that from your own statement. It's

2 not what I'm saying, I'm claiming, but I'm reading it from your own

3 statement.

4 A. The police and the army were close by. We didn't wait for them to

5 tell us to leave the house because we knew that that would be forthcoming,

6 because when the NATO bombing started, some people got killed in my

7 neighbourhood. So we were obliged to leave our homes even though we

8 didn't wait for them to tell us.

9 Q. You say that when you reached the village of [redacted]several days

10 later, there was shelling of the nearby village of [redacted]in the [redacted]

11 [redacted]municipality, and that the locals came to [redacted]and said, and

12 this is what you yourself said: "They told us that the police and the

13 army attempted to enter the village."

14 A. Yes. They came -- refugees came from [redacted]village. They told us

15 that the shelling started. In fact, we heard the noise ourselves. And

16 they felt in great danger there.

17 Q. Who prevented the police and the army from entering the village

18 when you say that the police and army attempted to enter the village? Who

19 prevented them from getting into the village?

20 A. Nobody could stop them. They could and did do what they wanted

21 and liked.

22 Q. You explained that the police and army tried to. Does that mean

23 that the police and the army fought with the KLA in order to enter the

24 village, according to your knowledge, according to what you know?

25 A. They were fighting even with the children and elderly, let alone

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Page 1393

1 with KLA.

2 Q. Those people who came from [redacted], did they mention how many KLA

3 members were in [redacted]?

4 A. No, they did not tell us anything.

5 Q. You said in your original statement, in the first statement, that

6 you stayed in [redacted]for nine or ten days and that, afterwards, you went

7 back to your own settlement and that you came across the police, and as

8 you yourself said, the police did not, however, stop us.

9 A. The police were patrolling the roads, but we didn't meet them. I

10 mean, at least my family didn't have any contacts with them. Maybe the

11 others did.

12 Q. Afterwards, you went back to [redacted], and you say in your statement

13 the following: "In the evening, I heard the bomb that was thrown by NATO.

14 I don't know what they hit, but when NATO did the bombing, the earth would

15 tremble."

16 And you go on to say in that same part of the statement: "There

17 was no police or army in the village. Perhaps they were around the

18 village."

19 Were you afraid when the bombing was going on and when the earth

20 trembled?

21 A. I was very happy when that happened, because I wanted the Serbs to

22 suffer from that, even though I was overwhelmed by fear of Serbs and

23 not of the NATO bombing.

24 Q. Very well. You say that the next day, that is to say, the 15th of

25 April, you went to see what had happened and that a man told you that you

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Page 1394

1 were all to go or that you would all suffer. If you didn't go, all of you

2 would suffer. And that when you saw other people leaving, you decided to

3 leave too. Who was that man that you referred to?

4 A. I don't know that, but I went out by chance. I saw many people

5 there, and everybody was saying we have to leave. I saw people crying.

6 Men, children, everybody had turned out in the street. Even without

7 them telling us anything, we knew what was happening.

8 Q. Was that man an Albanian?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you were moving towards the border. The police at the border

11 informed you that the border crossing was closed, and you started to go

12 back or, rather, you said the following: You were told to go back to

13 [redacted].

14 A. We waited there for a couple of hours near [redacted], in a

15 building without doors or windows. We waited there, thinking that we

16 would go to Albania and waiting for them to tell us the border was open,

17 which was not the case. They returned us to [redacted]to village, to

18 [redacted], in fact.

19 Q. And that's right by [redacted]; is that right?

20 A. It's near [redacted].

21 Q. Yes. Then you go on to describe the crime that was committed

22 against you personally. You said that the perpetrator of the crime had a

23 scarf over his head, or on his head.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So that means that he was neither a soldier nor a policeman.

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Page 1395

1 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter of comment. Just a moment.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a soldier.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. You described the uniform worn by the army and the police force.

5 Do you know that the army and police wears either helmets or caps?

6 A. I know that he was a soldier, the man who took me. He had -- he

7 had a kerchief over his head. I remember very well.

8 Q. You said that he forced you to go into a small Yugo-type car,

9 white. Was it a civilian vehicle or a military vehicle? Was it a

10 civilian vehicle?

11 A. It was a civilian car.

12 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. And was it a white Yugo?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was white and a Yugo. Something

14 like that. I don't remember.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So the man had a kerchief instead of a cap, and he forced you to

17 get into a small passenger civilian vehicle. Did the car have any signs

18 on it, any licence plates, number plates, anything of that kind?

19 A. I don't remember. I wasn't looking at things like that.

20 Q. Nearby, was there any regular police force? Did you see a regular

21 policeman or officer or somebody to whom you could complain about the

22 violence that was being done to you?

23 A. Before the soldier took me, the police came. I remember very well

24 they stopped the convoy and then they told the convoy to go on before they

25 took me, and then these soldiers came, and I remember -- and I remember

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Page 1396

1 that they said, "Are you with the police?" And they said, "We have

2 connections with them," and then they took me away.

3 Q. So that time when they took you, there was no regular police

4 nearby?

5 A. No. I didn't see any nearby.

6 Q. A short while ago you said the following: "They told me not to

7 say anything" after this crime that was committed against you. Who told

8 you not to say anything?

9 A. At that moment when they started raping me, I shouted, and they

10 told me not to let those in the convoy hear. "We are paid by Serbia for

11 all these crimes we do, and especially for rapes," and they didn't want

12 anybody in the convoy to hear.

13 Q. So the criminals themselves told you not to tell anyone anything?

14 A. When they heard me shouting, they tried to stop me. Not only not

15 to shout but not to say anything at all and to be as quiet as possible.

16 Q. Afterwards, when you joined up, you said, "Then the police came.

17 Some policemen were good to us, and had it not been for them, today we

18 probably wouldn't be here." That is to say that, after this incident when

19 there was no police nearby, when the police did come, these policemen were

20 good to you; is that correct?

21 A. No. When we were at [redacted]after all this happened, I remember

22 very well there was a policeman there, and he said, "I will guard you as

23 long as you -- while you spend days here and so that nothing happens to

24 you." But I remember that while we were there, a civilian came from the

25 same village, a Serb, and he started with his own forms of mistreatment.

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Page 1397

1 Q. You said that a truck came with bread. You said in your statement

2 that a truck came with bread and milk. Here this morning, you said that

3 they brought bread to you with the following motive in mind: That you

4 should think kindly of them.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What made you think that, that when they brought you bread that

7 they had such dishonourable intentions?

8 A. I want to say that a few previous -- a few hours -- a few days

9 previously they had mistreated us most inhumanly, and at this time we had

10 been psychologically mistreated and we didn't at that time need their

11 help, or we didn't need their bread, because everything that we had

12 experienced had been at their hands, and they were just trying to deceive

13 us with bread. So, from this, I conclude that their intentions were not

14 good.

15 Q. All right. Do you think the same of the following, when you said

16 that they brought this truck with bread and they also asked whether

17 somebody needed a doctor?

18 A. Yes, they asked about doctors. It's true they asked.

19 Q. So they brought a truck with bread, they asked you whether you

20 needed a doctor. Do you think these people came there to help you?

21 A. They came to help us, but -- they came to help us, I said that.

22 But in the morning they were nice, and in the afternoon they were

23 horrible. There was no kindness in this.

24 Q. You said that you boarded the trucks, as many as could fit in, and

25 that they didn't separate anyone.

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Page 1398

1 A. No. Those who were able to get into the trucks did so.

2 Q. You said that you received documents that would ensure free

3 movement for you.

4 A. Yes, we did. We each received a blue document.

5 Q. The Prosecutor insisted that they were taking documents away from

6 you, and you said that they were not taking documents away from you.

7 A. Excuse me, I didn't understand. Once again, please.

8 Q. At the insistence of the Prosecutor, that they were taking your

9 old documents away from you, you said that they did not take anything away

10 from you but that they only gave you these documents that allowed you free

11 movement.

12 A. They told us, when they put us to the municipality. And then when

13 my brothers came back from prison, they had no kind of identity document

14 at all.

15 Q. This is after those ten days.

16 A. I'm sorry? Once again, if you don't mind.

17 Q. You say that when your brothers returned from prison. Are you

18 talking about their return from prison after those ten days, when they

19 were released after those ten days?

20 A. When we returned from [redacted], then we found out that they didn't

21 have any documents.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, I just wish to draw your

23 attention to the following: That one should bear in mind the fact that the

24 Prosecutor puts leading questions to witnesses every time in relation to

25 documents and separations, and when witnesses give a different kind of

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Page 1399

1 answer, the Prosecutor insists yet again. You could particularly see it

2 in this case.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. At the outset, you said that your brother was getting out and he

5 saw that there were fires and that there were demolished shops and houses.

6 On the basis of what you said as you were enumerating various events, your

7 brother went out after the bombing.

8 A. I said on 24th of March the bombing started, and I went out the

9 next day. But I didn't go out any more. I only went out for a few

10 minutes to try and find bread.

11 Q. But your brother went out for longer, and then he saw the

12 consequences and he told you about that.

13 A. My brother only went out to buy bread and then came back home.

14 Q. What did he say to you when he got back home?

15 A. When he came back home, he said that the -- all life is paralysed

16 in [redacted]. Houses are destroyed and there are army all over the place,

17 and there was no life in [redacted].

18 Q. So that was in the immediate aftermath of the bombing, the next

19 morning?

20 A. It was the next morning. But after the first night of the

21 bombing, we were no longer free to go outside. There was no way we could

22 go out.

23 Q. The Prosecutor asked you whether you saw the police. You said

24 that the police was not near the house, that they were further away. That

25 is to say that, at that time, you did not see the police. Is that right

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Page 1400

1 or not?

2 A. It is true that immediately after the NATO bombing started, the

3 Serbian police and army were stationed near my house in buildings, and all

4 these buildings were full of Serbian army and police.

5 Q. Yes. But at that time, you did not see the police. They were far

6 away from your house. At least, that's what you had said.

7 A. Not all that far. But we didn't dare even go out into the yard,

8 let alone to watch what the police were doing.

9 Q. My question is only whether you saw the police then or not.

10 JUDGE MAY: I think we've exhausted the topic.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question, gentlemen, in view of

12 the insistence of the Prosecutor after the answer that the police were far

13 away and that they could not see them, and the question was: "What did

14 their uniforms look like," the uniforms of those they did not see. I'm

15 not questioning the presence of police in [redacted]. I am

16 questioning the way in which witnesses are being examined.

17 JUDGE MAY: You've made your point. If they are examined

18 improperly, then they will be stopped. Yes. Let's move on. Have you got

19 very much more in fact for this witness, Mr. Milosevic?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't.

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Wladimiroff?

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: The accused has checked the previous statement.

23 There is no reason for the amici to intervene, so we will have no

24 questions.

25 JUDGE KWON: I have a couple of questions after the Prosecution.

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Page 1401

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the --

2 MS. ROMANO: No, Your Honour. No, I don't have any questions.

3 Questioned by the Court:

4 JUDGE KWON: Witness, at the outset, you testified that many

5 people were maltreated or mistreated by Serb persons before the war broke

6 out in [redacted]. Do you mean the war -- by "war," airstrikes by NATO?

7 When did the war begin?

8 A. You mean in [redacted]?

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

10 A. It's true when the war started in the villages of Kosova, we in

11 [redacted]were not free to go out, because when we went out into the town,

12 we had to have our identity cards, and if we didn't, the police mistreated

13 us most inhumanly. So we were not free. We had a lot of questions from

14 them. "Why are you outside?" Things like that.

15 JUDGE KWON: Witness, my question was whether -- when the war

16 began, did it begin on 24th of March, in your opinion?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. My last question is about the -- you said

19 that you tried to go to Albania from [redacted], and the police said that

20 the border was closed. Did anybody tell you the reason why the border was

21 closed?

22 A. No. They only told us that, "The border is closed, and you have

23 to go back to your homes."

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness K15, Mr. Milosevic put it to you that the

25 man who mistreated you was not wearing a uniform. You said he had a scarf

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Page 1402

1 over his head. And Mr. Milosevic said that the man was not a soldier, but

2 you insisted that he was a soldier. How did you --

3 A. It's true.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but how did you know that he was a soldier

5 if he wasn't wearing a uniform, a helmet, or a cap? What led you to

6 believe that he was a soldier?

7 A. He was a soldier. I saw with my own eyes that he was a soldier.

8 He was dressed as a soldier, like all the others who maltreated us.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: He was dressed as a soldier?

10 A. He was a soldier. He had a kerchief on his face, and he was --

11 and his clothes were like -- like the kerchief.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

13 JUDGE MAY: Witness K15, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

14 for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You're now free to go.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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Page 1405

1 [redacted]

2 WITNESS: WITNESS K14

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

5 Q. Now, Witness, before we begin your evidence, you understand that

6 you have earlier for and have been granted by the Court the right to have

7 your --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- evidence in closed session?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that means that no one other than the people you now see in

12 the courtroom will hear what you have to say.

13 A. Yes, I understand.

14 Q. You will also recall that I have spoken to you about other options

15 that are available.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Which include the fact that you will be referred to only by a

18 number and -- such as K14.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that your face will not be seen on television.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. But that the public will be able to hear what you have to say.

23 A. Yes, I understand that.

24 Q. The choice is up to you. Do you have a choice as to whether or

25 not the public hears what you have to say today?

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Page 1406

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What is your choice?

3 A. Yes, I want the public to hear.

4 JUDGE MAY: Witness K14, you've thought about that, have you?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, K14.

6 JUDGE MAY: You thought about having the evidence heard in public,

7 have you?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By only those who are in here.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I think that is the better course.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: I think that has answered my questions. Thank you,

11 Your Honours. I thought I should explore the matter in closed session.

12 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you to think --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Listen to my question.

15 A. Yes, I will listen.

16 Q. And there's going to be a pause between when I speak and when you

17 speak, to allow for translation.

18 A. Yes, I understand.

19 Q. Witness, let's talk about the fall of 1998 first. May we do

20 that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Witness, I understand that you were born in [redacted]on the

23 [redacted]--

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- [redacted].

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Page 1407

1 A. Yes. That's true.

2 Q. And you lived there with your father and your mother and two of

3 your three older brothers and sisters; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, I understand that something happened to your village of

6 [redacted]in October of 1998. Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes, that's true.

8 Q. As a result of whatever happened, did your family move somewhere?

9 A. Yes, that's true.

10 Q. Where did you move?

11 A. The KLA came from [redacted]and the surrounding villages,

12 and they moved the people of the villages around. They moved -- and we

13 were told that we had to leave.

14 Q. Did they tell you why you had to leave, K14?

15 A. Because the infantry was coming from [redacted].

16 Q. All right. And when you said the KLA came to the village, where

17 did they come from? You've mentioned a name, [redacted].

18 A. Yes, they came from the village of [redacted].

19 Q. And is that close to your village?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, as a result of them telling you the infantry was coming, did

22 your family move?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where did you go?

25 A. We went to the village of [redacted].

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Page 1408

1 Q. All right. We'll get back to that in a moment. I'm going to skip

2 ahead. Did you eventually, as a result of leaving, end up in [redacted]

3 [redacted], which is a suburb of [redacted]?

4 A. Yes. We stayed overnight in [redacted]and then went to

5 [redacted] and then to [redacted]in the neighbourhood [redacted], to [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 Q. Yes, we'll get to that in a moment. Just before we get to your

8 aunt's, I want to ask some further detailed questions.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, when you were still in your village, was your father living

11 with --

12 A. Can you translate that again?

13 Q. All right. I'll say it again and it will be translated. While

14 you were still living in your village at [redacted], was your father living

15 with you and your family?

16 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, with us. He -- he stayed behind to look after

17 the property and the animals.

18 Q. And when you say "he stayed behind," does that mean that your

19 mother and your other brother and sisters left with you?

20 A. Yes. My father remained in the woods, and we went to [redacted]

21 [redacted].

22 Q. All right. Now, before your family left [redacted], did you -- do

23 you know whether your father was somehow assisting the KLA?

24 A. Yes, that's true. He helped them with whatever he could; with

25 clothes, food.

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Page 1409

1 Q. Did you ever see him wearing anything that would be a part of a

2 KLA uniform, for example?

3 A. He didn't have the full uniform.

4 Q. Did he have any part of a uniform, say like a cap or any other

5 part of the uniform?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did you ever see him wearing any parts of that uniform?

8 A. He was civilian, but he kept wearing, yes, the hat.

9 Q. All right. Do you know whether, earlier, he had ever joined the

10 KLA before you left for [redacted]?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, after your family left your village, did you see your father

13 again?

14 A. No. I have not seen him.

15 Q. Did you subsequently hear what happened to him?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you tell us, please.

18 A. Yes. From my uncle's son and my brother, I heard that he died.

19 He was killed by a shell.

20 Q. Now, let's get back to the part where you were telling the Court

21 that in October of 1998, the KLA came and told the villagers that the

22 infantry was coming. Do you understand the time period I'm now addressing

23 your mind to?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. Were these KLA wearing uniforms at the time?

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Page 1410

1 A. I haven't seen -- I didn't see them. I only saw the flag.

2 Q. We'll get to that in a moment too. Did you -- what are you aware

3 that they told the villagers? Why were you being told to leave?

4 A. Yes. The infantry troops are coming, and they will kill us.

5 Q. And as a result of being told that, what, if anything, did the

6 villagers, including your family, do?

7 A. On top of the mountain, and there were shots being fired, and you

8 could see people on the ground.

9 Q. Could you see --

10 A. And there was smoke.

11 Q. Thank you. Could you see where the shots were coming from?

12 A. Yes. From the [redacted], the village of [redacted]

13 Q. And this village that you talked about, do you know how far away

14 that is, or do you have any idea of distance?

15 A. I don't know. I can't tell you.

16 Q. Did you see, in fact, any infantry troops coming to your village?

17 A. No. I didn't see because we had left.

18 Q. But you did see that shells were coming into your village; is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what effect did that have on the villagers?

22 A. We only tried to escape to save ourselves. We didn't see.

23 Q. Did you see what people were doing? Like, how were they leaving?

24 A. They were leaving in panic. They wanted to save their lives.

25 Q. The KLA that had come to the village to warn you, did you see what

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Page 1411

1 they did when the shells started to land?

2 A. Whoever had children, they were helping their children first.

3 Q. Did you see what they did after?

4 A. And the KLA was leaving the area.

5 Q. Now, do you know whether the KLA had a place that they used as a

6 headquarters in your village?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And where was that located in your village and how did you know

9 that that's where they congregated?

10 A. It was at a house. I saw the flag. I saw their flag there.

11 Q. And when you say you saw their flag, can you describe to the Court

12 what that flag looked like or what kind of a flag it was?

13 A. It's red with the eagle on it.

14 Q. And do you know what kind of flag that is red with an eagle on it?

15 Do you know what kind of flag that is?

16 A. It's the flag of the Albanians.

17 Q. Do you know how many KLA were in the area of that headquarters?

18 A. Many of them.

19 Q. Now, you told us that people fled in panic. Where did you go?

20 A. We went to the village of [redacted].

21 Q. And were there other people that left with you and your family?

22 A. Yes, many.

23 Q. And was there a particular route that would take you from your

24 village to [redacted]?

25 A. It was via the mountain.

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Page 1412

1 Q. And can you tell us, how big a group would you estimate left your

2 village to get to this other village?

3 A. There were many people, but I couldn't tell you. There were very

4 many, including children, elderly, elderly women and men, youngsters.

5 Q. Was -- all right. You've told us there were elderly women,

6 elderly men. Were there any, shall we say, young men in that group?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And where did you -- once you got to [redacted], how long did

9 you stay there?

10 A. We stayed one night.

11 Q. And what happened the next morning, if anything?

12 A. We went up the mountain to the village of [redacted], to [redacted],

13 to the [redacted]neighbourhood, to [redacted].

14 Q. Once to got to [redacted], did you continue to walk or did you find

15 another way to get to [redacted]?

16 A. No. We went to [redacted].

17 Q. Did you walk all the way or were you able to get a ride somehow?

18 A. We went there by car.

19 Q. All right.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, at some stage we should know where the

21 village is [redacted]

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I had anticipated showing the witness maps,

23 but that isn't of much use to us in this instance.

24 JUDGE MAY: Well, perhaps you could tell us where it is on a map,

25 if necessary after the adjournment.

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1413

1 MR. RYNEVELD: That would be excellent. Yes.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: I can maybe do it this way, in addition to showing

4 the Court a map.

5 Q. How far or how long would it take to get from [redacted]to your

6 village of [redacted]?

7 A. One hour.

8 Q. Is that by -- by car or by bus or walking, or what?

9 A. One hour by bus.

10 Q. Did you have any idea in terms of distance, like kilometres, how

11 far away it would be?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. No. But it takes about an hour by bus, does it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Now, Witness, do I understand correctly that, once you

16 got to [redacted], this [redacted] suburb, that you went to your aunt's

17 place, and she assisted you in finding an apartment; is that right?

18 A. Yes. My aunt found a flat for us to rent at [redacted], the

19 name of the landlord.

20 Q. Yes. And do I understand correctly that you and your family lived

21 in that flat until, shall we say, mid-March of 1999?

22 A. Yes. That's true, yes.

23 Q. I want to skip anything between your arrival in [redacted] and the

24 -- March of 1999. So we're now in March of 1999. Do you understand that?

25 A. Yes, I understand.

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1414

1 Q. Now, you've earlier mentioned the name of your landlord. Did

2 something happen to him?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was that?

5 A. The milicija was following him. They were searching for him.

6 They wanted to kill him. Four days into the NATO bombing, they killed

7 him. They grabbed him from his house and they killed him.

8 Q. All right. Now, that brings us to NATO bombing. Do you know when

9 that was? Do you remember a date?

10 A. On the 24th of March.

11 Q. And when you say "NATO bombing," is this bombing that you

12 personally saw or heard?

13 A. Yes, I've heard.

14 Q. All right. So do I -- how did you find out about NATO bombing?

15 A. We saw things on television. That's when we learned that NATO was

16 coming. And we heard the shots.

17 Q. When you say "shots," exactly what kind of sounds did you hear

18 that you interpret as "shots"?

19 A. I didn't see anything.

20 Q. My question --

21 A. There was light first and a noise, shots.

22 Q. How far away?

23 A. They were far away, very far away.

24 Q. Now, this suburb of [redacted], is that on the edges of the town of

25 [redacted]? I'm sorry. That's my fault.

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1415

1 The suburb of [redacted], is that on the edge of the city of

2 [redacted]--

3 A. Yes, near [redacted], near the village of [redacted].

4 Q. And when the -- you said you saw the lights. Did you know what

5 was happening?

6 A. Yes, and I was very happy.

7 Q. Why?

8 A. I was very happy.

9 Q. Can you tell us why you were happy?

10 A. I was happy because they were coming to save us.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I note the time. I'm about to get

12 into another area. I'm quite happy to ask a few more questions, but I

13 wonder if this is a convenient time to break.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes, it's convenient.

15 Witness K14, we're going to adjourn now --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

17 JUDGE MAY: -- until half past two. Could you remember in this

18 break and any others there may be in your evidence not to speak to anybody

19 about your evidence until it is --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not going to talk to anyone

21 about this.

22 JUDGE MAY: That's fine. Would you be back, please, at half past

23 two.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.58 p.m.

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1416

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

3 MR. NICE: Forgive my interrupting the proceedings only very

4 briefly to draw to your attention and to record that, on information we've

5 received, the television station RTS in Belgrade was broadcasting as early

6 as last night, as I'm presently informed, that the first two closed

7 session witnesses giving evidence were rape victims and giving their

8 ascribed court titles, K14 and 15. Similar information may have been

9 broadcast on the radio station as well. We have absolutely no knowledge

10 how this information has leaked out.

11 Its effect may be, of course, quite serious, because even though

12 the subject matter of the testimony is not revealed, by revealing the

13 overall -- I'm sorry, the detail of the testimony may not be revealed, by

14 revealing the subject matter and details of the names used in court, none

15 of which should be in the public domain, the effect on other protected

16 witnesses may be alarming.

17 I venture to suggest that the Court will want to discover, if it

18 can, how this information is being broadcast, and we're all concerned, of

19 course, to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. The matter will be reported to the

21 Registrar.

22 MR. NICE: Thank you.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. Before the last witness is

25 called in, there are two matters that I would wish to address the Chamber

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1417

1 if I may. The first is, as the Court has seen from the witness's

2 demeanour, that she is, as I believe I explained earlier, fragile, shall

3 we say, emotionally fragile. And in other proceedings, and perhaps even

4 before this Court, they have permitted on occasion where it is justified

5 to have someone from Victims and Witnesses Services sit beside the witness

6 as a form of assurance. Not, of course, to take any part in the

7 proceedings but simply as a, shall we say, emotional comfort for the

8 witness.

9 Would the Court be inclined to feel that that would be appropriate

10 in this case?

11 JUDGE MAY: The Court has noticed that the witness is clearly

12 extremely nervous and finding it difficult to give her evidence, and in

13 those circumstances, we think it wholly appropriate that she should have

14 the comfort of someone beside her in whom she has some trust. This would

15 be a member of the Victims and Witnesses Section.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: That is my understanding, yes. Those are the only

17 people who have contact with them, other than members of the OTP. But, of

18 course, we cannot have any contact with them once they've commenced their

19 evidence.

20 JUDGE MAY: Well, we shall permit somebody from the Victims and

21 Witnesses Section to sit beside her.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. While those arrangements, if any, need

23 to be made, I thought I would turn to a matter raised by Mr. President to

24 the effect that it would be of assistance to the Court if we could make

25 reference to a map. And if I may, through Steve Spargo, the Prosecution

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1418

1 entered, I believe it was [redacted], and I'm asking you to turn now --

2 I'm sorry. There's a binder now of material. [redacted]is a map

3 of [redacted]. And if my memory serves me correctly, if

4 you look at the left side of that map, which is marked as an exhibit, the

5 witness has referred to a place called [redacted], and if you look under the

6 [redacted]in the top, left-hand corner, immediately below the (redacted)

7 [redacted], there is a small town in the neighbouring municipality, right

8 where the railroad line is, and you see [redacted].

9 And then I believe she referred to going through a village called

10 [redacted], and you'll see that, unfortunately, these names are not

11 always in both Albanian and in Serbian, but you will see, about half an

12 inch down, you'll see [redacted]on the railroad line. Straight down.

13 And then she related they went to various places and ended up in

14 the place called [redacted]. Well, if you look at [redacted], which is

15 the -- which is the obvious [redacted]town, just to the north, and there's a

16 red line representing a road, just to the right at the top, you'll see

17 [redacted]. There is no [redacted] but that, it is my understanding, that that

18 is the same town. Other than giving evidence, that's the only assistance

19 I can be to the Court. The map has to be of some assistance and it is an

20 exhibit.

21 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: With that, if that assists, then I would propose

23 that the witness be brought back.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Clearly it's desirable that we finish her

25 evidence as soon as possible, but clearly, equally, it may take time. We

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1419

1 have both those matters in mind.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Yes. I will attempt, Your Honours,

3 to -- to be as quick as I can with this witness. I will certainly, God

4 willing, finish the examination-in-chief at this session. I don't know

5 how long the cross will last. So the witness may have to return on

6 Monday.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In connection with what was said by

9 the Prosecutor a few minutes ago about this information, I don't think

10 that any one of my associates provided this information, but I do wish to

11 inform you that I told my associates yesterday that today there would be a

12 closed session because that is customary procedure in cases of rape. And

13 I asked them whether they had any information in our records concerning

14 rapes, and then the answer I got was that they did have several cases of

15 the army and the police arresting persons for committing rape or for

16 attempting to commit rape.

17 The lady sitting in front of you warned me that I am not allowed

18 to disclose the identity of protected witnesses. Please rest assured that

19 I would never resort to such nastiness or would I ever disclose someone's

20 identity.

21 However, for my own needs, I have to obtain information. You

22 repeated once again today in connection with the protected witnesses'

23 regimen that nobody has the right to disclose their identity. However, in

24 the interest of defence, the persons involved have to get restricted

25 information because such persons have to communicate with someone. So I

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1420

1 don't see that there is any problem that happened here or that there was

2 any violation involved if I communicated with my associates and if I said,

3 "Tomorrow there is going to be a closed session because it is a question

4 of rape; what do you have about rape?" And they give these figures, et

5 cetera, et cetera.

6 If the subject that concerns the protected witness is forbidden

7 altogether, then that is a different matter, because then that also

8 involves the right to defence. A witness can be protected personally by

9 name and surname, but the incident itself, as to whether rape had occurred

10 or not, I don't see why that would be protected, and that was my

11 understanding of what you said.

12 However, in addition to everything I've said, I wish to say that I

13 don't think that my associates provided information to anyone, because I

14 don't believe that it would be in their interest in any way.

15 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let's have the witness, please.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: I recall K14.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Take a seat. Now, Witness K14, can you hear

18 me?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE MAY: We understand you may be feeling a bit nervous about

21 giving evidence. There's no need to be. We will get through it as

22 quickly as we possibly can. If you can't remember anything, don't worry

23 about that. It's not a test of memory. Just say you can't remember. All

24 right?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1421

1 JUDGE MAY: And if you don't feel very well at any stage or you

2 don't feel like answering any more questions, you tell us and we'll stop

3 for a break or something like that. All right?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 MR. RYNEVELD:

9 Q. Now, Witness, you recall just before the lunch break you had told

10 us about the starting of NATO bombing in the [redacted]area. Do you

11 remember telling us about that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did something happen in the area where you were staying

14 immediately after that NATO bombing started?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us about that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What happened?

19 A. The police came, six police, six soldiers, and they told us, "Get

20 out of here. Go to your brothers in Albania."

21 Q. And when they told you "your brothers in Albania," did you

22 personally have any brothers in Albania or what did you understand that to

23 mean?

24 A. We had to leave because we didn't dare speak up to them.

25 Q. All right. And how were these -- you said policemen and soldiers.

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1422

1 How were they dressed? Do you recall?

2 A. Yes, I remember.

3 Q. Tell us.

4 A. The police, yes. I remember the soldiers dressed in green

5 uniform, whereas the police in blue uniform.

6 Q. I see. And were they armed? Did they have any weapons or not?

7 A. Yes, they had arms.

8 Q. Do you remember what kind of arms?

9 A. Yes. The soldiers had automatic rifles.

10 Q. And what, if anything, did you see them doing with those?

11 A. They didn't do anything, just told us to get out and to "go to

12 your brothers."

13 Q. All right. What did you do when they told you to get out and go

14 to your brothers in Albania?

15 A. We left [redacted], and they separated us from my brother. I didn't

16 see him after that. We left out for [redacted], and then we went to

17 [redacted].

18 Q. All right. Just before we deal with that, I'm going to ask you,

19 would you please have a look at some photographs.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: [redacted], please, Madam Clerk.

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. RYNEVELD:

23 Q. The usher is going to show you a page of photographs. I'm going

24 to ask you to look at that.

25 A. Yes.

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1423

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps you could remove it out of the folder and

2 open it out, please, Mr. Usher. Open it right out.

3 Q. All right. Now, just -- you've told us -- I'm sorry, you're

4 pointing to something?

5 A. This one here, and this one here.

6 Q. All right. Now, we're going to put those same photographs on the

7 projector, and they'll show up on a television screen in front of you.

8 Could you tell the Court what uniforms you saw.

9 A. I'm sorry? I saw the blue. The police were dressed in blue

10 uniform. The army soldiers in green, dark and light green uniforms.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: If the video could be enhanced, a little closer up,

12 then maybe we can read some numbers. Okay.

13 Q. Let's talk about the police uniform first. Could you point to

14 that again. Which ones were the police?

15 A. This one here.

16 Q. Right. You're pointing on the screen. Would you use the pointer

17 the usher's got and point to the photograph. Okay. For the record --

18 A. The blue uniforms like this here.

19 Q. You're pointing, for the record, to photograph number 6.

20 And now you're pointing to the green uniforms in photograph number

21 9. What is that? The ones you are now pointing to --

22 A. The army.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much indeed. Just take it easy. Have

25 some water.

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1424

1 Take those pictures away.

2 Mr. Ryneveld, I don't think it's helpful to try to have the

3 witness identify this sort of thing. It's simply upsetting her.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on then, if I

5 may.

6 Q. Now, Witness, you said that you went to [redacted]and then you went

7 to [redacted]; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. We walked to [redacted]. We heard a lot of shots.

9 Q. And did you go to [redacted]?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What happened there?

12 A. We heard a lot of shots.

13 Q. And did you continue walking to [redacted]?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How long did it take you to get there?

16 A. Four hours.

17 Q. Four hours in [redacted]or -- is that what you're talking about? Did

18 it take you four hours to get from [redacted]to [redacted]?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, Witness --

21 MR. RYNEVELD: And I intend to lead a little bit. I take it my

22 learned friends will stop me if I'm going too far.

23 Q. Once you got to [redacted], do I understand -- is it right that you

24 stayed there, in the house of a relative, for about three weeks?

25 A. Yes, it's correct. Yes.

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1425

1 Q. And were you alone in that area or were there other people in and

2 around that house as well?

3 A. There were many people. One hundred fifty only in one house.

4 There were many, many.

5 Q. Were there people outside the house as well?

6 A. Yes, there were many.

7 Q. What kind of shelters did they have?

8 A. In tents.

9 Q. Now, when you were in [redacted], did there come a time when there

10 was further shelling and shooting?

11 A. Yes. Yes, very much so. They came from [redacted]. We heard shots or

12 shelling coming from that area.

13 Q. And what was being shelled?

14 A. They fired from [redacted], and all the refugees were coming to

15 [redacted]. We heard a lot of shelling.

16 Q. All right. And so people came from other villages in the

17 neighbourhood, did they, to [redacted]?

18 A. Yes. Many were from [redacted].

19 Q. And as a result of them coming to [redacted], did you decide to go

20 anywhere, and if so, why?

21 A. Because we were not left alone at any moment.

22 Q. So what did you do?

23 A. We left [redacted]. Many refugees left the place.

24 Q. And where were you headed?

25 A. To [redacted].

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1426

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, the Trial Chamber is concerned that the

2 witness should not be put through an ordeal, and therefore, this matter

3 should be completed as quickly as possible.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Fine.

5 JUDGE MAY: It's not for us to tell you what to do, of course, but

6 perhaps you could move as expeditiously as possible to paragraph 17

7 onwards and then take it fairly quickly there.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: I shall. Thank you, Your Honour. I just want to

9 ask a couple of questions, if I may, that are relatively important as I

10 get to that paragraph.

11 Q. Witness, on the way to [redacted], I understand that you were in a

12 column or in a convoy of other people. Is that right?

13 A. Yes. Yes. There were many of us, many refugees in that column.

14 Q. And did there come a time when the convoy was stopped?

15 A. Yes, in [redacted]. They stopped us there, and they asked a girl to

16 get off a tractor, and they said, "You are very beautiful." And two

17 policemen fetched her, and one of them had a shaved head, and they took

18 her to the mountain.

19 Q. And when they took her away, could you hear anything?

20 A. I was very scared indeed.

21 Q. Did she come back?

22 A. Yes. They returned her after half an hour.

23 Q. And how did she appear to you?

24 A. She had -- she was wrapped in a blanket.

25 Q. All right. Now, eventually -- did you find out what had happened

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1427

1 to her?

2 A. Yes. She was raped. I was very scared.

3 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to skip ahead. You eventually returned to

4 [redacted], did you?

5 A. Yes. We returned back to the house of [redacted].

6 Q. And I'm going to just skip what happened for the month of April

7 and most of the month of May. Did something happen on the 21st of May

8 when you were in the house?

9 A. I don't know.

10 JUDGE MAY: Are you feeling all right?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Does she need a moment?

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, we note the condition of the witness.

15 Do you really want to go on?

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, I see -- I wonder if we could have a

17 five-minute break.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, have a five-minute break, and I think it would be

19 sensible to consider the position, because either we go on and, of course,

20 there will be further examination, there may be cross-examination, or we

21 finish it now, and it's a question of really the witness's interests above

22 all.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: It might be --

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps if one of the amici were with me, would it

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1428

1 be permissible if the amici and I were to approach her just to see if

2 she's capable of going on? I know I'm not allowed to have contact with

3 the witness. It's been exceptional circumstances.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: It may be that if you were to discontinue now,

5 there wouldn't be much to cross-examine on.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: This is true. I will consider my position, thank

7 you.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn for five minutes.

9 --- Break taken at 3.00 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 3.17 p.m.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. Obviously the witness is the

13 primary concern. I was prepared to not ask any further questions, but I

14 understand that the witness wants to tell the Court what happened and that

15 she's feeling better, and I propose simply to have her tell what she knows

16 and ask very few questions.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.

18 MR. RYNEVELD:

19 Q. Witness, you told us -- I want to take you to a time when you were

20 in your home. Do you remember some policemen coming to your house in

21 [redacted]?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do I understand correctly that they took you to a hotel?

24 A. Yes. [redacted], a policeman; and another policeman; and a Gypsy, to

25 the [redacted].

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1429

1 Q. Tell us in your own words - and I'll try not to interrupt you -

2 tell us what you want the Court to know about what happened to you.

3 A. One day before they came and they told me and my mother and my

4 sister, "Don't keep refugees." And they told us and they went. And when

5 they came the next day, they came to [redacted]house in [redacted]

6 again, and they asked me for a glass of water. I gave it to them and my

7 hand was shaking. And they told me to come and get some cards because we

8 were inhabitants of [redacted], and my mother said no. And I was

9 frightened. And there was my aunt's husband. And they took me, me and my

10 sister. And they took me to a car. And my sister fainted and couldn't

11 get into the car, and me, they put me into the car. And I said to them,

12 "I don't want to come," and they beat me with a rifle butt.

13 And they took me to the [redacted]with [redacted]and the other

14 policeman and the Gypsy. And when we got out of the car there, there were

15 lots of Albanians waiting there. And then they took me upstairs to a room

16 with a bed.

17 I had a black tracksuit bottom and a black shirt. And they threw

18 me onto the bed. [redacted]and me. The other waited at the door, and the

19 Gypsy remained in the basement. And I was very afraid, and I shouted.

20 And they took off my clothes completely. And he took off his

21 clothes completely, [redacted]. And he began to rape me. And I started to

22 lose blood, and I had a terrible stomachache and great pain in the vagina.

23 They threw me from the bed onto the floor. And my back hurt and

24 my stomach hurt. And I -- I had terrible backache. And they -- they kept

25 me about two hours and then they returned me home to [redacted].

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1430

1 Q. All right. Witness, I understand that, as a result of that

2 incident, you and your family decided to leave [redacted]?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you left the following Monday morning and crossed the border

5 into Macedonia, is that right?

6 A. Yes, that's true because we didn't dare stay there any more,

7 because when [redacted]returned me with the Gypsy and the other policeman,

8 they -- "We will wait for you and your sister here before you are done,"

9 and when they brought me home, they slapped me and I hurt my nail. And I

10 don't feel well ever since, in my head.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, do you want to ask any questions?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The bare minimum. I'm very sorry

14 that this young girl is the victim of this crime, this evil, but let me

15 say once again that this was not done by either the army or the police but

16 by criminals and it is the army and the police who arrested criminals of

17 that kind. So I'm not going to ask her anything about that but about

18 other things she said.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you said that the KLA came from [redacted]

21 [redacted]village and told you that you had to leave.

22 A. Yes. Yes, from [redacted]. The snipers shot from [redacted]

23 [redacted], and it's true.

24 Q. Very well. You said that there was a separate house which was the

25 headquarters of the KLA in your village and that there were many members

Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 1431

1 of the KLA in your village. Is that right?

2 A. Yes, it's true.

3 Q. When you left across the mountains, as you said, did all the

4 members of the KLA go with you?

5 A. Only those who had children, and we helped them a bit.

6 Q. And what about the others? Did they stay in the village or did

7 they go off in another direction?

8 A. They -- some stayed in the village. And I only heard shots and

9 saw smoke.

10 Q. Did many KLA members go with you?

11 A. No.

12 And I don't want to be asked any more questions, because I can't

13 hold out and because of my heart, because those people who raped me have

14 ruined my life.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't want to ask any more

16 questions then. That's all.

17 JUDGE MAY: Witness K14, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

18 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You're now free to

19 go if you'd like to go.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much from you, Your

21 Honour. It was so hard for me to come here.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we appreciate that, and thank you for coming.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask a few questions, please,

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1 after this witness? May I be allowed to ask some questions after this

2 witness?

3 JUDGE MAY: We'll sit again in five minutes.

4 --- Break taken at 3.30 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 3.35 p.m.

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE MAY: I would refer to the schedule, which I hope everyone's

8 got a copy of, for the proposed sittings next week. We propose sitting

9 rather longer hours, if we begin at half past nine.

10 You've seen this, Mr. Nice, have you?

11 MR. NICE: In fact, not. I don't know why not.

12 JUDGE MAY: Copies for the Prosecution?

13 MR. NICE: It had reached someone, apparently, in our office. It

14 just hasn't reached me yet. Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE MAY: What is proposed is that on Monday, we should sit

16 rather longer, until 5.00. Thereafter next week, we will be sitting at

17 9.00, apart, obscurely, I see, on what's described as Friday. I don't

18 know why on Friday we're not sitting at 9.00. But in any event, next

19 week, apart from Monday, we'll be sitting at 9.00 and only sitting in the

20 mornings.

21 Then for the weeks beginning the 11th of March, 18th of March and

22 the 25th of March until Thursday the 28th, it's proposed we sit at 9.30.

23 We then sit until 5.00.

24 The reason that we're doing that is because the length of time

25 which this case is taking and is likely to take. It's therefore necessary

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Page 1433

1 to have some extra time.

2 Now, we've heard no submissions about it. I understand Mr.

3 Milosevic may have something to say on the matter, but I'll begin with

4 you. Is there any reason, as far as the Prosecution are concerned?

5 MR. NICE: I'm sorry I hadn't had an opportunity or I hadn't taken

6 it to consider the document in advance. Obviously, we'll do everything we

7 can to assist and we're grateful for the opportunity to have more court

8 time.

9 It remains, actually, a substantial burden of work on the entire

10 team to keep these days full, but we will do our best and let you know if

11 we find any real reason for asking for shorter periods. We will do our

12 best, but it is very difficult.

13 JUDGE MAY: There are a large number of witnesses --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. There may be -- and there may be more, of

16 course.

17 MR. NICE: Indeed. Yes, certainly. I think that which is

18 probably obvious to the Trial Chamber but differs from the experience in

19 domestic courts is that each witness - or most witnesses - represent a

20 substantial amount of work before they come to trial, and perhaps it's the

21 case with Kosovan witnesses that it's even longer than with other

22 witnesses, and so there is a great deal of work that is being done. The

23 team is doing its best and gets in early to do so and works until very

24 late to do so. We will simply do our best and let you know if those are

25 difficulties that we can't face.

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Page 1434

1 JUDGE MAY: We reiterate again that the timetable is one we must

2 adhere to if at all possible, no matter how long things take. If at all

3 possible, we must try to finish these sections of the case in the various

4 dates that we've designated. I'll point that out as an objective.

5 MR. NICE: We realise that's an objective, but --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Nice.

7 MR. NICE: We realise that, of course, as an objective, but must

8 remind the Chamber that all estimates of times given were given on a

9 different expectation and on the expectation that the accused would not be

10 taking part. I'm very happy to see that he is taking part, but when the

11 time estimates were given, they were given without that knowledge.

12 JUDGE MAY: Is there anything, Mr. Wladimiroff, you'd like to

13 raise since we're dealing with timetables and the like?

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic, is there something you want

16 to raise on this?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I did want to say something in

18 respect of the timetable. This is the third one that I have received, but

19 that doesn't matter, it's not important. Let me be quite clear at the

20 outset: I'm not asking for anything except I merely wish to make you

21 aware of some facts with respect to the timetable.

22 If the end of our work by the end of March is 5.00 p.m., if the

23 working day is to finish at 5.00 p.m. until the end of March, that, in

24 practical terms, means that as I have to get up, according to my

25 timetable, at 7.00 a.m., I have to be ready by 8.00 a.m. for transport and

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Page 1435

1 I get back, at the earliest, at 6.00, get back to the prison at 6.00 p.m.

2 at the earliest, from 6.00 to 8.30 is the only time in which I can use the

3 telephone, which means two and a half hours in the evening, which means

4 that I have been -- that I won't be able to use my two hours of fresh air

5 per day, which is the right of every detainee, and the guards also

6 complain of not having enough fresh air. But with these longer working

7 hours, I will not have a chance to go out into the fresh air.

8 During those two and a half hours, I will have to have something

9 to eat and to hear my family over the phone. So I will not have an

10 opportunity to go out into the fresh air, to have any exercise, any food,

11 or any personal needs. And the possibility I have to communicate with my

12 associates will also be restricted, because that time has been limited to

13 8.30, when everything closes down. So I won't be able to use the public

14 phone box which exists in the corridor either after that time.

15 Let me repeat: I make no requests, I don't ask for anything,

16 but I want it to be known what conditions I have been placed in, and if

17 this is a way to abuse and mistreat the accused, then I would like to have

18 this understood in this way, because in the time that I have at my

19 disposal, I'm not able to see to my basic human needs, especially as you

20 intend to have this last endlessly. But a human being does have the need

21 to breathe fresh air, to eat, and to communicate.

22 As I say, let me repeat, I'm not asking for anything. I just want

23 this to be noted.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider what the accused has said and obviously

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Page 1436

1 it is something we will take into account. One compromise might be to sit

2 at 9.00 and stop at 4.30 or to rearrange the hours in some other way. But

3 we'll look at it.

4 Unless there are any other matters, half past nine Monday morning.

5 MR. NICE: No other matters save I think next week the Chamber

6 intend -- or may have intended to hear argument about 92 bis and may also

7 have intended to hear argument about the scope of cross-examination. In

8 respect to both topics, papers are either in or are shortly to be in from

9 the amici and from the Prosecution. I've already asked that, if there is

10 to be legal argument, it shouldn't be on Friday of next week or indeed on

11 Friday of the following week because on each of those days I either shan't

12 be here or shall have to be leaving early.

13 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll bear that in mind.

14 Half past nine Monday morning

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.47,

16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of March,

17 2002, at 9.30 a.m.

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