1 Tuesday, 12 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE MAY: This is the decision of the Trial Chamber on the issue
6 of the admissibility of statements under Rule 92 bis.
7 We have considered the Prosecution motion for the admissibility of
8 23 statements under the Rule. In principle, we will admit the statements
9 under the Rule, but subject to two conditions.
10 The first is this: Because of the cumulative nature of the
11 evidence and the fact that it will increase the already very extensive
12 number of witnesses proposed to be called by the Prosecution in this case,
13 and bearing in mind the need for an expeditious trial, the Prosecution
14 will be limited to four witnesses per municipality, including the viva
15 voce witnesses already called. The Prosecution is to select which of the
16 Rule 92 bis statements it wishes to have admitted for those municipalities
17 where at the moment it is proposed more than four witnesses.
18 The second condition is this: Because, in the view of the Trial
19 Chamber, the evidence proposed to be given is subject of an important
20 issue in this case, those witnesses whose statements are admitted will be
21 required to attend for cross-examination, the Prosecution being allowed in
22 each case to ask some introductory questions.
23 Written reasons for this decision will follow in due course. We
24 shall also consider any necessary adjustment to the timetable for
25 finishing the Prosecution case and any application to extend the number of
1 witnesses, on good cause being shown.
2 Mr. Ryneveld, we've just been handed a summary of a witness. It
3 appears that there's going to be another change in the order; is that
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Not that I'm aware of, beyond the list that we
6 provided the other day. The one thing that may have happened, Your
7 Honour, is that my understanding is that once the present witness,
8 Mr. Loku, is finished, we will call Mr. Bucaliu, followed -- depending on
9 how long that takes, there is a -- we anticipate calling Dr. Ball
10 tomorrow. If there is time left at the end of the day, we might have the
11 opportunity of moving up another witness. But that was more a
12 consideration to accommodate the accused's concern about getting the B/C/S
13 translation of the document, and we thought that giving him an extra
14 evening of preparation time might well be of assistance. However, it's
15 hard to predict whether we'll even get that far today. But in the event
16 we do, that is a possibility. I trust that meets with the Trial Chamber's
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I propose, then, to continue with
20 Mr. Loku at this time.
21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's have the witness.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 WITNESS: HAZBI LOKU [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld: [Continued]
1 Q. Mr. Loku, yesterday before we broke for the day with your
2 evidence, I had asked you, if I recall correctly, whether upon your return
3 from Macedonia you returned to your village of Kotlina, and I believe you
4 indicated you had, and you told us that you found your village to be
5 destroyed. Am I -- is that a fair summary of what you told us yesterday?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. And, sir, I believe at that point I asked you whether or not you
8 had brought some photographs with you to The Hague, and I'm going to show
9 you now some enlargements of those photographs, if I may.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: And we have, first of all -- yes. Thank you.
11 Just so the Court knows, I intend to show him the first of three
12 photographs. That's it.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 56.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Madam Clerk.
15 Q. Now, Witness, you're looking at a photograph.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that be placed on the ELMO, Mr. Usher. Is it
17 coming up yet?
18 I don't know if the ELMO is operating, Your Honour. We're not
19 getting a picture.
20 There we are.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, here it is.
22 MR. RYNEVELD:
23 Q. All right. Sir, first of all, is that a photograph that you
24 brought with you?
25 A. Yes, this is a photograph I brought.
1 Q. And what do we see in this photograph? What is that a photograph
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we had received
5 this photograph earlier, all of us, in the documents that we see -- that
6 we received several months ago. We had received these photographs
7 earlier. Therefore, I don't see what the problem is here now. Why are we
8 asking this gentleman whether he brought these photographs in? Because
9 we've had these photographs for several months now.
10 JUDGE MAY: Let him describe what the photographs are.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
12 Q. Sir, what is this a photograph of?
13 A. This is a photograph of the burned school where I used to work.
14 After we returned from Macedonia, we cleaned it up. This is the
15 photograph of the burned and destroyed school.
16 Q. All right. And that's in Kotlina; correct?
17 A. Yes, it's in Kotlina.
18 Q. All right. I'm going to show you now another photograph, if I
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher. Perhaps we could give both sets now so
21 it will save time. Could you distribute those two photographs. And could
22 the first of those be placed on the ELMO and shown to the witness.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, we can see it.
24 MR. RYNEVELD:
25 Q. This is another photograph that you brought with you, sir, and
1 we've had enlarged; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. And can you tell us what is shown in this particular photograph?
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Judge May.
5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, what is the objection?
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, the objection is, Your
7 Honours, that these photographs already exist. I don't see what kind of
8 an explanation this is, that the witness brought them in now. These are
9 photographs that we received several months ago. Isn't that undeniable?
10 JUDGE MAY: You may have received them, but the Court has not seen
11 them, and we don't know what they are. The witness must be allowed to
12 explain what the photographs are. Now, we'll get on more quickly without
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, no, I agree, Your Honour.
15 That's quite correct. But I don't understand what this means when they
16 say that the witness brought these photographs in today. I'm asking this
17 because there are some things I would like to touch upon later. I don't
18 find this clear.
19 JUDGE MAY: You can ask him in cross-examination.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
21 Q. Witness, what is this a photograph of?
22 A. This photograph shows villagers returning after their expulsion to
23 Macedonia. It shows them assembled, and in front of them there are the
24 coffins which were later taken for burial. They are the burial of the
25 people who were massacred and who were exhumed by the Tribunal and were
1 prepared for burial.
2 Q. And the building in the foreground, more or less immediately
3 behind the row of people, what is that? What building was that?
4 A. Behind the people, there is the house of Baki Kuqi, a two-storey
5 house. You can see two entrances from the road. It's the shop, and the
6 other part is the residence, the dwelling part of the building. This
7 house is separated from the school only by the road. It's on the other
8 side of the road.
9 Q. And was this building destroyed during the course of the events
10 that you described to us in your evidence yesterday?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And this -- I'm sorry. The final of the three photographs, sir, I
13 take it that --
14 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry. Do we have that yet? Has it been
15 distributed? Will you please distribute the final photograph,
16 Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: This photograph will be numbered Exhibit 57. The
18 present photograph, Exhibit 58.
19 MR. RYNEVELD:
20 Q. Would you look at this photograph, please, Exhibit 58, Witness.
21 Is this another slightly different angle, a shot of the same building in
22 the background on the right?
23 A. Yes. This is a photograph of the same building, but you can here
24 see the yard and the coffins which are here, have been brought from
25 Kacanik, and here are the people on the street, waiting.
1 Q. All right, sir. Now, just one question about those photographs.
2 Did you personally take them or were they given to you to bring with you?
3 A. I took them myself.
4 Q. And when did you take them?
5 A. I took these photographs when I came back from where I was. There
6 were a lot of photographs of this kind when we went to the funeral.
7 Q. Yes. And the month and the year in which you took these
8 photographs, please?
9 A. These photographs must be from September, when the funeral took
10 place. I don't remember the date, but it was September.
11 Q. And that was 1999, was it, sir?
12 A. Yes, in the same year.
13 Q. Now, one final issue, sir. I want to back you up to -- you've
14 told us about witnessing an explosion after the men were put into the two
15 holes you talked about yesterday. Upon your return, sir, did you find out
16 who was missing in your village?
17 A. It was while we were in Macedonia that we really found out who was
18 missing, by asking relatives, and then we counted 22 people who were
19 missing. And then, later, they were brought out of the pits for
20 examination, although some people hoped that some of their relatives would
21 in fact have survived.
22 Q. And were the bodies that were taken out of the pits identified,
24 A. I believe they all were.
25 Q. Now, you say that you saw these young men being thrown into the
1 pits; is that right?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. From your vantage point, could you tell their identities as they
4 were being thrown in? Could you see who they were?
5 A. I don't understand.
6 Q. From what you saw at the time they were being thrown into the
7 holes, could you see who those young men were who were being thrown in the
8 holes? Did you know them? Did you know them by name?
9 A. Yes, I knew the names of each one of them.
10 Q. And have you brought with you photographs of the names of the
11 people who you say were thrown in the holes?
12 A. Yes. I brought a photograph of each one of them, except for one
13 of whom I couldn't find a photograph because all of the photographs were
14 burned in their house. But I have brought photographs of all the others,
15 and I can identify them. I grew up with them and I knew them all.
16 Q. And the one person for whom you could not find a photograph, is
17 that an individual that you mentioned in your evidence yesterday?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And his name?
20 A. His name is Idriz Kuqi.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: Schedule L, the first name, Your Honours. There's
22 no photograph.
23 Q. Now, sir, these -- you brought us, I believe, some 24 photographs,
24 individual small photographs, did you, sir?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you have seen that we have prepared five pages of a collage of
2 those photographs? You've seen that?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: I propose now to produce a further exhibit, with a
5 legend, and perhaps we can make these five pages of photographs one
6 exhibit number. And there's also a legend that will go with it. I don't
7 want the legend shown to the witness, but I want the Court to have it.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Loku, you'll see that there are some five pages of
9 photographs of individuals. Do you recognise those photographs as being
10 copies of the ones that you brought with you? Just quickly look at the
11 pages. Are those copies of the photographs you brought?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. And could you tell us, please, looking at the
14 photograph -- each of these photographs now has a number above the
15 photograph. Can you tell us, please, the name of the individual, starting
16 with photograph 1. Who is that?
17 A. Number 1 is Adnan Loku.
18 Q. And that's on the schedule. Now, Adnan, I believe in the schedule
19 it's spelled A-t-a-n. Is that a correct spelling of the first name, sir,
20 or is it Adnan, A-d-a-n [sic]?
21 A. Yes, Adnan, A-d-n-a-n, with "d." Adnan.
22 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe that's the sixth name down on the
23 Schedule L, Your Honours.
24 Q. Photograph number 2, who is that?
25 A. Number 2 and number 8 are brothers. One 16 and one 17. One of
1 them is called Ibush and the other is Naser. I could get the names mixed
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Those names are on Schedule L, Your Honour.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Loku is their surname.
5 MR. RYNEVELD:
6 Q. Thank you. Photograph number 3, sir?
7 A. Number 3 is Mina Kuqi, a school pupil.
8 JUDGE MAY: We have the legend. We have the photographs. Unless
9 there's any dispute about it, I don't think we need go through them all.
10 We shall, of course, look at them, and we will be able to see ourselves
11 what the photographs show.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That may well be a better course of
13 proceeding, Your Honour.
14 Q. Now, I just have a couple questions of clarification.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, I just wanted to find out a
16 question. On the legend, several names similar to the witness's. Are
17 these relatives?
18 MR. RYNEVELD: I asked that question, Your Honour, and perhaps we
19 should have the witness --
20 Q. Yes. Many of these people, sir, that you have talked about have
21 the same last name as you. Are any of them relatives or is "Loku" a
22 common name in Kotlina?
23 A. I could tell you about each one of them. Number 2 and number 8
24 are the brothers Ibush and Naser Loku. They were the sons of Rexhep whom
25 I talked about yesterday.
1 Q. So they were relatives of yours?
2 A. Really close cousins, but they were from the same village. There
3 were two other brothers, Agim and Ismajl Loku. There were a lot of them
4 who were each other's cousins and who happened to be together. There are
5 cousins Danush Kuqi, who is a secondary school pupil. That's number 10.
6 Xhemjal Kuqi, number 12. He was his cousin. Sherif Kuqi, 11, was a
7 cousin, and Ismajl. Number 21 was his cousin, a closer cousin. They were
8 first cousins of each other.
9 Q. All right.
10 A. Shall I go on?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I just wanted to know how many of them were
12 relatives of yours. It appears that some of them were.
13 Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
15 Q. Now, for example, number -- photograph 23 --
16 A. The Kuqi family were cousins among themselves, not my cousins.
17 Q. Except for -- as I understand it, sir, you told us yesterday that
18 Zymer Loku, number 23, he was not found in the holes was he? You told us,
19 I believe, that you personally found him in a -- in a house. He was
20 wounded and died later.
21 A. Yes. Photograph 22 was the 72-year-old man Zymer Loku. He was
22 wounded, fatally wounded, and his right leg was cut off, and we found him
23 in the house yard.
24 Q. And similarly, 23 is your brother Milaim Loku?
25 A. Yes. That's the photograph of my brother.
1 Q. And he also was not in the holes?
2 A. No. He was in the river.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Given Your Honour's comments about the legend, I
4 might just have one further question.
5 Q. Sir, there are -- these are the 24 photographs you brought with
6 you, which include two people who were not in the holes; is that right?
7 JUDGE KWON: No. How about number 1? Idriz Kuqi was also shot in
8 a separate place.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: That's the one for whom he did not have a
10 photograph, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE KWON: Okay.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I believe those are -- given Your
13 Honour's comments, you have the legend. If the legend can also go in,
14 then, as part of the exhibit, I believe that obviates the need for any
15 further exhibits.
16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Exhibit number?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 60 and the legend 60A.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The microphone wasn't switched on.
21 Thank you.
22 Before I start asking my questions, I should like to draw your
23 attention to the following: This is an example of a manipulation with
24 semi-truths on behalf of the Prosecution which must not be allowed --
25 JUDGE MAY: This is not the time for comment, Mr. Milosevic. That
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 point has been made quite clear. It's the time to ask questions. Now, if
2 you've got matters to put to the witness, put it to him so he can deal
3 with it.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Don't worry. I can do that
5 through my questions as well.
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] You worked as a professor in the school and
8 technical centre in Kacanik; is that right? Yes or no.
9 A. I worked there for two years.
10 Q. Did you work in the actual school building or in a private house?
11 A. Where I was working, I was in the school.
12 Q. You also worked in Kotlina as a teacher; is that right? Did you
13 work there in the school building or in a private house there?
14 A. In the building.
15 Q. So in both cases, you used the state school building and not
16 private houses; is that right?
17 A. Yes. In the two places where I worked, I worked in the schools.
18 Q. What do you know about the fact that in Kotlina there was the main
19 headquarters for transferring weapons from Macedonia, that it was located
20 in Kotlina?
21 A. This is a lie of yours. It is not true.
22 Q. How far is it from Kotlina to the Macedonian border?
23 A. About 12 to 15 kilometres.
24 Q. And it is located at about five kilometres from Kacanik, on the
25 right-hand side of the main road running from Pristina to Skopje; is that
2 A. It's on the right as you go from Prishtina to Skopje. I don't
3 know how far. Maybe, as the crow flies, five kilometres, no more. I
4 don't think it's five. On the road that I travel, it's three or four.
5 Q. All right. So much the better. The village of Kotlina is
6 adjoining to the village of Kotlanica [phoen], which is where the crossing
7 to Macedonia is on the Urosevac-Tetovo road on the slopes of Mount Sharre;
8 is that right?
9 A. Yes. There is a road to Gllobocica.
10 Q. The village of Kotlina, via the village of Ivaja, is linked to
11 Jezerce, is that right, across Ivaja?
12 A. No. Jezerci is far away, in Ferizaj mountains. It's another way.
13 Q. How far is it from Kotlina, I mean?
14 A. I can't give you a figure.
15 Q. Roughly.
16 A. Ferizaj is some 30 kilometres away from Kacanik. We are closer to
17 the border. Maybe it's some 40 or 50 kilometres from Elez Han.
18 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you about Jezerce. What's 50 kilometres away
19 from you? Kotlina?
20 A. Since you asked me -- I thought you asked me about the distance
21 between Kotlina and Jezerci, if I'm right.
22 Q. Yes. How far is Kotlina from Jezerce?
23 A. I think 40 kilometres. I've never been there. I can't give you
24 an exact figure.
25 Q. Do you know -- are you familiar with the position and role of
1 Jezerce in Kotlina during the war and before the war?
2 A. Regarding Jezerci, I might say that in summer, or earlier, we
3 heard the shelling of it, but I don't know exactly what went on there.
4 Q. Do you know that Jezerce was one of the main strongholds of the
5 KLA for the entire region of Kosovo and Metohija?
6 A. I've heard that KLA was stationed there, but I can't tell more
7 than that.
8 Q. All right. Let's go back now to your municipality. As you worked
9 in the municipality and in the school, do you happen to know that in the
10 municipality, 85 people were employed, 62 of them were Albanians? Are you
11 aware of that figure?
12 A. I've never worked in the municipality myself, so this is what you
13 are saying. I have always worked in the education sector. I lived in the
14 municipality in the last years of my life. Even though our municipality
15 was 99.99 composed of Albanian population, none of us worked there, I
17 Q. In the municipality there were 85 employees, of which 62 were
18 Albanians, and as far as the figures that you have put forward, that
19 figure is incorrect. There were 2 per cent Serbs, which would make it
20 about 300 -- not about, but 335 Serbs and about a thousand Romany. Are
21 you aware of that, of those figures and that information?
22 A. I am not aware of any figures, and I don't know that these people
23 used to work in the municipality. When I had to go to the commune to take
24 some documents, I always encountered only Serbs there.
25 Q. And do you know that in the Sharre factory at Djeneral Jankovic,
1 right next to your village, of the 1.700 workers, more than 1.500 were
3 A. I know that there were Albanians in the past, but lately it was
4 full of Serbs.
5 Q. How could it have been full of Serbs when you said a moment ago
6 that there were no Serbs in that municipality of yours?
7 A. Not in the municipality, but they came from Shterpce commune, and
8 the Albanians who worked there were fired from their jobs and sent home.
9 There were three villagers of mine who were close neighbours, and they
10 were fired from their jobs and stayed at home.
11 Q. Where were they fired from?
12 A. You know better.
13 Q. I really don't know in Kacanik what the situation was.
14 JUDGE MAY: Just answer the question, if you would. You said they
15 were fired from their jobs and sent home, including three neighbours of
16 yours, and the question is: Which jobs were they fired from?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They used to work in this factory,
18 doing various jobs. That was a cement-producing factory, and they did
19 various jobs there. One was a mechanic, one was in another workshop
20 there, and so on.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. All right. Let's clear this matter up. I say that of the 1.700
23 workers, there were more than 1.500 Albanians working in the factory right
24 up until the war. Is that true or not? Yes or no. One thousand, five
25 hundred were Albanians.
1 A. I never worked in that factory, and I can't give you exact
2 figures, but when we went to the marketplace on Wednesday, we always used
3 to see Serbs driving to and from that plant.
4 Q. All right. And are you aware of the fact that in Kacanik, there
5 were more than 300 members of the Socialist Party of Serbia; of that
6 number, 220 were Albanians; and the secretary of the board was somebody
7 called Hanka Luka, an Albanian lady? Do you know about that?
8 A. I am not aware of that. I was never myself a member of that
9 party, so I don't know anything about its membership.
10 Q. Do you know that in Kacanik, an Albanian party was set up, and it
11 was called the Albanian Democratic Initiative, and the president of that
12 party was Faik Jashari? Are you aware of that?
13 A. This name doesn't ring a bell. I don't remember anything about
15 Q. Let me remind you. Faik Jashari was also a member of the state
16 delegation in Rambouillet, at the negotiations that were held in
17 Rambouillet. Do you remember that? Does that ring a bell? Does that
18 help you identify the person I'm talking about?
19 A. No. I think you are fabricating such names. I don't know of any
20 names like this.
21 JUDGE MAY: Just deal with the questions, please. We'll get on
22 more quickly.
23 Yes, Mr. Milosevic, we've dealt with this question.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Do you know that in Kacanik a local police force was set up made
2 up exclusively of the representatives of the Albanian ethnic group and a
3 small number of Romany? Do you know about that?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know that, from the village of Kotlina, the coordinators
6 for the local police force were Bashkim Loku. He has the same surname as
7 you do. His father's name was Sulejman. So Bashkim Sulejman Loku, and
8 Shaban Zenujlla Kuqi. Do you know about that?
9 A. Yes, I know these persons personally. I never knew they were
10 policemen because I've never seen them wearing uniforms. They are both
11 alive to this day; one living in Kotlina, the other in Ferizaj.
12 Q. And do you know that members of that local police force were
13 exposed to constant threats and attacks by the KLA?
14 A. What happened in the Serb police I know nothing about, but I don't
15 know they were in any way endangered by someone else.
16 Q. It was the Albanian police. According to my information, 12
17 members of the local police force were killed or kidnapped by the KLA, and
18 my question is do you know any one of these people: Nisem Tusha, Alia was
19 his father's name. So it is Nisem Alia Tusha. Osman Kuka. The father's
20 name Xheladia [phoen]. Bektish Melushe Dardiste [phoen]. Selim Agusha
21 Topolani. Shajip Emina Reka. Riza Faik Kiki. Bedri Shefki Berisha,
22 Qamil Emin Reka [phoen], Gazim Azem Sinanovic [phoen], Dalip Emin Reka,
23 Shaban Zenujlla Kuqi, and Baskim Sulejman Loku. Have you heard of any of
24 these people? Do you know any of these names? They were all local
25 policeman. As you can see, they were all Albanians and some Romany, one
1 or two Romany. Do you know anything whatsoever about these people?
2 A. I said that I know the two names you mentioned earlier. They are
3 my co-villagers. I know them in person. They are alive to this day. As
4 far as the other names are concerned, I can't tell you anything. I don't
5 know if they were police in uniforms, regular police, that is. They were
6 policemen. They must be in Serbia somewhere.
7 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that the KLA, according to the
8 local security, and they were a local police force, so not members of the
9 Ministry for the Interior, do you know because -- that because of their
10 relationship towards the local security people and generally the members
11 of the Albanian community who were loyal to the state, that the KLA, first
12 of all in the village of Ivaja and then in Kotlina, formed prisons for
13 them, set up prisons for these people? So I'm talking about Ivaja and
14 Kotlina, those two villages, the ones that you mention in your testimony.
15 A. I've never heard of that, and I don't -- and I don't think that
16 that was true. What you are saying, these people who are police, they
17 must have been staying with the police. So I know nothing about them.
18 Q. Do you know that in the village of Ivaja, in a prison of that
19 kind, they found and released a group of 15 Albanians who were prisoners
20 there? Do you know about that?
21 A. No. I've never heard anything about that.
22 Q. Talks were held with them and there is a videotape about that, but
23 you heard nothing of that? Fifteen Albanians?
24 JUDGE MAY: He says he knows nothing about it.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you know about the fact that before the NATO bombing in
3 Kacanik, there were many Albanians who were loyal to Serbia, a large
4 number of them, and that a group of -- in the summer of 1977 [as
5 interpreted] sent letters of support, and also in the spring of 1998 also
6 sent a letter of support to the authorities, energetically calling for the
7 suppression of Albanian terrorism? Do you know about that? It was
8 written up in all the papers which were sold in Kacanik, and it was from
9 the municipality of Kacanik that the event came from.
10 JUDGE MAY: The date -- one date has been translated for these
11 letters of the summer of 1977.
12 THE ACCUSED: 1997.
13 JUDGE MAY: 1997; very well.
14 THE ACCUSED: 1997.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. And the next expression of support was --
17 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with the question so far. What
18 is said is that in the summer of 1997 and the spring of 1998, letters of
19 support were written from Kacanik, calling for suppression of Albanian
20 terrorism. Can you assist us about that or not?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know nothing of what he is
22 saying. Nobody told me that there was any such letters written. Those
23 who have -- who may have written those letters might know something. I
24 know nothing.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Forty-eight Albanians and Romany sent that letter, and that took
2 place on the 23rd of March, 1998.
3 JUDGE MAY: He says he knows nothing about the letter.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And do you know about a decision of the Executive Council of
6 Kosovo and Metohija dating to February 1999, a February 1999 decision
7 stipulating that the Municipal Assembly of Kacanik should give out free of
8 charge land for individual housing construction to Albanians who were
9 citizens of the SRY -- FRY? Sorry. Who were citizens of Yugoslavia, in
11 A. I have never read any Serb papers, so I know nothing about that
13 Q. You don't know that people built houses on that land, that
14 Albanians, Yugoslav citizens, built houses on that land that they got free
15 of charge?
16 A. I know that in my own village, everybody built his own home in his
17 own land, and nobody assisted them.
18 Q. Do you know that, afterwards, the KLA destroyed these houses of
19 theirs because they built it on state-owned land? Do you know anything
20 about an event of that nature, anything similar?
21 A. I know nothing that -- I know nothing about it, and it seems
22 absurd to me what you are saying.
23 Q. It is probably so. Do you know that during July and August 1998,
24 two large groups of terrorists were arrested, both coming from Urosevac
25 and Kacanik? They were arrested by the police. Are you aware of that?
1 A. I was all the time minding my own business. I went to school and
2 went back home, and I know nothing about that.
3 Q. And do you remember - it's not a big town, after all - in December
4 1998, by the village of Dimce near the border with Macedonia, when a large
5 quantity of weapons was seized? I'm linking this to the first question,
6 that Kotlina was used as the main channel for obtaining weapons from
7 Macedonia. So in December 1998, by the village of Dimce at the border
8 with Macedonia, a large quantity of weapons was seized, and on that
9 occasion the following persons were arrested: Berisha Valon --
10 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the -- let the witness deal with
11 the question.
12 You were asked about December 1998, and it is alleged that there
13 was a seizure of a large quantity of weapons at Dimce. Do you know
14 anything about that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dimce is on the other bank of the
16 river. It's far away from where I live. I've heard that there are Serb
17 police stationed there and that in Han i Elezit they arrested some people,
18 but I don't know the motive for that. And usually we didn't trust the
19 Serb media because usually there was a lot of propaganda on it.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I said Dimce at the border with Macedonia. Usually what is seized
22 is something that is illegally being taken across the border.
23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. What is the next question?
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. The question was: Does he know these persons who were arrested,
1 that is to say, Berisha Valon, Berisha Ekrem, and Topolani Naser?
2 A. I never knew these people. I know nothing about them.
3 Q. None of them are from Kotlina?
4 A. No, none of them is.
5 Q. You know all the inhabitants of Kotlina, don't you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are you aware of what happened in February 1999 when, in the
8 village of Djurdjev Do, the KLA attacked a police patrol? Three policemen
9 were wounded then, and five members of the KLA were killed. Do you
10 remember that event in February 1999?
11 A. No. I never heard about it.
12 Q. And do you remember that on the 20th of February, 1999, around
13 9.00 in the evening, that is to say 9.00 p.m., Selim Topolani was
14 kidnapped from his own house and taken out of it barefoot? He was
15 president of the Albanian Democratic Initiative for Kacanik.
16 A. I'm unable to answer this question.
17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we've been through this with other
18 witnesses. This witness cannot help as to these various allegations
19 you're making. You will have the opportunity in due course to -- you will
20 have the opportunity in due course to present evidence. You've put your
21 case very fully to him. Now, I suggest you move on and deal much more
22 with his evidence. Time is not limitless.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I'm dealing
24 with, his statement, because all of these terrorist actions preceded the
25 event that the witness is treating as a central event, and now we're
1 getting go that.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Are you aware on the 27th of February that in the village of Gajre
4 a member of the local guard was abducted, and he also worked in the
5 factory called Krecara, Riza Kiki? An ethnic Albanian as well.
6 A. I don't remember. I don't know anything about this.
7 Q. And do you know on the 28th of February, around 1300 hours, again
8 in the village of Gajre, a large group of terrorists attacked the police,
9 who were going out looking for Riza Kiki, and on that occasion the
10 commander of the police, Bobuljub Staletevic [phoen], was killed and three
11 policemen were seriously wounded; then a terrorist was also killed, Asaj
12 Etema, from the village of Gabrice - he was in uniform and he had a
13 hand-held launcher with two grenades that had not been fired - and the
14 rest escaped? Do you remember that incident?
15 A. I did hear that something happened at Gajre. During that time,
16 the Serb patrols used to torture the people, and I heard that something
17 happened, but I can't give you any names about the victims.
18 Q. All right. So now we've reached the end of February, the first
19 days of March, the kidnapping of Topolani, the kidnapping of the local
20 policemen, the killing of a police patrol, and now we are getting to this
21 beginning of March that you had been talking about.
22 Is it correct what I'm going to state right now: that fighting was
23 taking place in that area, that the KLA was emptying villages, using empty
24 houses as fortified positions, which necessarily led to the fact that they
25 were shooting at the police from there, and this therefore made the Serb
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 forces react to that? Is that correct?
2 A. I don't know what happened there, but as for my village, I can
3 answer about my village.
4 JUDGE MAY: Help us with this, Mr. Loku: Was there any reason
5 that you could see for the attack which took place at the beginning of
6 March and on the 24th of March on your village? Was there any background
7 to that which might explain it, as far as you're concerned?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, there was no reason for
9 my village to be attacked.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I proceed?
11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You haven't answered my question. The KLA emptied villages, used
14 empty houses - and I'm including the village of Ivaja there, the one that
15 you started with - they used empty houses as fortified positions, which --
16 JUDGE MAY: He said, Mr. Milosevic, in answer to that: "I don't
17 know what happened there, but as for my village, I can answer about my
18 village." That was his answer to your question.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but may I remind you, then,
20 that here he stated that the village of Ivaja was attacked, and he's from
21 the village of Kotlina, which is near Ivaja, and he started his whole
22 story with the attack on the village of Ivaja, and that's what I'm
23 referring to now. As for what I've just read, I read it from the report
24 of the Verification Mission of the OSCE. But now I shall go on.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Is this assertion correct:
2 "Although it seemed that the villagers were on the side of the
3 KLA, there were reports that local people were forced to show support for
4 or join the KLA."
5 Is that correct or not, what I've just read out to you? Just say
6 yes or no, make a comment, whatever you prefer.
7 A. I'm not saying either yes -- the truth is, around the mountains of
8 Ivaja, the KLA was present. They had gone out voluntarily. Nobody forced
9 them. They could no longer stand the tortures to which the Serbian forces
10 submitted the population. Anybody who wished joined the KLA. That is
11 what I know.
12 Q. A short while ago I quoted to you how the KLA emptied houses and
13 turned them into fortifications, from which they were shooting at the army
14 and the police, and that's what this report says as well. That's why I'm
15 saying that the explanation is a manipulated one.
16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this is all comment. You can put the
17 report in front of us in due course, but for the moment confine yourself
18 to asking questions of this witness. He said he doesn't know anything
19 about what's written in the report. Now, can you move on.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I've been
21 talking about. What is the key point in the witness's statement is some
22 kind of an attack on Ivaja and then Kotlina, caused by nothing, according
23 to him. It was all actually the other way around.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Do you know --
1 JUDGE MAY: This is his evidence. Now, you put your evidence in
2 front of us and we'll consider it, but there's no point arguing with the
3 witness when he's given his evidence, given his account. Now, can you
4 move on.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fine. I'm just asking about
6 Kotlina. Please.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you know that the KLA detained, against their own free will, in
9 the village of Kotlina, refugees? They were not allowed to leave,
10 although the KLA and the UNHCR had an agreement on safe passage for
11 refugees outside the areas of conflict. Are you aware of that, that
12 villagers, refugees in Kotlina - I'm talking about the beginning of
13 March - were not allowed to leave Kotlina? The KLA didn't allow them to
14 do this, although the KLA had an agreement with the UNHCR on safe passage
15 for these people to get out of the zone of conflict.
16 A. This has been made up. No villagers were kept hostage by
17 anybody. I was in this village. They remained freely in their houses.
18 They had no reason to go anywhere. When fighting began nearby, we tried
19 to get away, but you killed us.
20 Q. Please, what is written here and what I've read out to you: The
21 KLA did not allow people to leave the zone of conflict --
22 JUDGE MAY: He has said it's not true. Now, we can't go further
23 than that. It's his answer.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right, Mr. May. I'm
25 just drawing your attention to the fact that this is written in the OSCE
1 report, the Kosovo Verification Mission report dated the 11th of March.
2 JUDGE MAY: We have been through that. In due course you can put
3 that report in, but for the moment you're asking this witness questions
4 and you've got his answer. There's no good going on about it.
5 JUDGE KWON: The question was about the refugees from other
6 villages, not about the villagers of Kotlina. Could you answer that?
7 Were any refugees kept hostage by KLA in your village?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there weren't any.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Proceed, please.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. After these clashes, when the verifiers finally got to your
12 village, managed to visit Kotlina, that is, they found the inhabitants of
13 Kotlina there and many displaced persons from nearby hamlets. They claim
14 that then the bodies of three men were found, who were identified as
15 members of the KLA. Is that correct? Do you know anything about this?
16 A. In our village, there was never any clashes between anyone. On
17 10th of March, the OSCE Verification Mission members came. They took some
18 old people and women of Dreshec neighbourhood, that was burned down, and
19 took them to Kacanik. We asked them that they take us away too, to some
20 safer place, but they told us that Kacanik was full of refugees from other
21 hamlets and there was no place for any more refugees. So they told us,
22 "Stay where you are, because we will take care of you." And this is what
23 happened. Until the 23rd of March, they stayed in our village and we felt
24 safe. That was all.
25 Q. During this incident, that is to say, when the Mission came, the
1 OSCE mission, when they came to your village, do you know when the problem
2 came up when the commander of the KLA did not allow the UNHCR access to
3 displaced persons in your village, in the village of Kotlina? Do you
4 remember that?
5 A. I don't remember to have seen any KLA members there. I am saying
6 that there wasn't any KLA members there. I said that OSCE observers came,
7 and they removed -- displaced some people of that neighbourhood that was
8 burned down. As for the rest, we stayed there. You had better ask the
9 OSCE observers. They might give you a better version.
10 Q. Since I wasn't there either, I'm asking you about what I read in
11 the report submitted by the OSCE monitors. They had a problem. The KLA
12 did not allow the UNHCR access to displaced persons in Kotlina. So you
13 know nothing of this; right?
14 A. I know only that the OSCE monitors came to Kotlina, took away some
15 people - nobody prevented them - and that when we asked them to help all
16 of us, to take all of us to Kacanik, as I said, they said that there is no
17 more room there to shelter more people, because people were coming in from
18 the surrounding villages every day. So they told us that it is rife with
19 refugees, Kacanik.
20 Q. All right. Now I'm going to put a specific question to you,
21 without beating about the bush. This also stems from the report of the
22 OSCE. It says:
23 "Although the problem had been resolved and the representative of
24 the KLA apologised, there were also indications that the KLA was
25 responsible for such a large number of refugees because they used these
1 villages as the front line of the conflict itself."
2 So do you know anything about this? Do you know why the KLA used
3 the village as a front line of the conflict itself?
4 A. I don't think that has been true of the KLA, because the KLA
5 members were staying in the mountains. And we were not refugees. We were
6 residents of the village. We were staying in our own homes. We were not
7 afraid of KLA, because we looked upon them as our defenders. We were
8 afraid of the Serb forces, police and army forces.
9 Q. My question was: What do you know about the use of village houses
10 as the front line in the conflict between the KLA, on the one hand, and
11 the army and the police on the other hand? What do you know about that?
12 A. This has never happened in my village. There were no KLA members
13 and no confrontations between them and the Serb forces.
14 Q. On the basis of what the report of the Verification Mission says,
15 it seems to have been the other way around.
16 JUDGE MAY: The witness said -- the witness has given his answer.
17 Can you move on.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If he has given an answer, it's a
19 very significant answer.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. At the beginning of March 1999, on the road between Djeneral
22 Jankovic and Seciste, Goran Milicevic was killed from an ambush. He was a
23 lieutenant and he was in a privately owned vehicle. Do you know anything
24 about that killing, the beginning of March 1999?
25 A. No, I don't know about this. I don't know the names of the
1 killed. Later we did hear that somebody was killed, but I don't know who
2 it was.
3 Q. All right. Do you know at least about the killing of Ziber Curri,
4 a member of Rugova's party, the DSK, that the KLA killed also at the
5 beginning of March 1999?
6 A. I heard that he was killed. I don't think what you say is true.
7 Q. And do you know that on the 27th of March, in the evening, at 1850
8 hours, that the terrorists attacked the police station at Stari Kacanik?
9 A. Could you give me the date again, please?
10 Q. The 28th of March, 1999. No, the 27th of March, 1999, at 1850
11 hours, the police station in Stari Kacanik was attacked.
12 A. I crossed the border on the night of the 24th of March. I don't
13 know what happened after then.
14 Q. But you spoke here about many things that you had heard about
15 subsequently from your fellow citizens, from other villagers, et cetera.
16 So it is logical that you could have heard about incidents of this
17 nature. You have probably heard of some events.
18 Did you hear, for example, that on the 28th of March, in Stari
19 Kacanik, a cluster bomb was thrown and it encompassed two hectares and
20 created about 80 craters? Are you aware of that? This is your
22 A. No, I haven't heard of this.
23 Q. And are you aware of anything about a terrorist attack that was
24 carried out with hand-held rocket launchers in the street Boro Vukmirovic
25 [phoen] in Kacanik against the police, carried out by 20 armed terrorists
1 wearing camouflage uniforms, and nine policemen were wounded on that
2 occasion? Are you aware of that incident?
3 A. No. I don't know.
4 Q. And do you know about an attack near the house of Enver Koka in
5 the new neighbourhood of Kacanik? This was a terrorist attack against the
6 members of the police when a large quantity of weapons was seized and a
7 when a number of terrorists were liquidated? Do you know anything about
9 A. No. I haven't heard of this.
10 Q. And do you know in your neighbourhood, in the village of
11 Doganovici, that NATO bomb killed five persons, Albanians? Two children
12 were seriously wounded. The children had found a cluster bomb and tried
13 to open it and then the following persons were killed: Hoxha Fisnik, born
14 in 1990 was killed, a child.
15 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with the question.
16 Do you know anything about this incident?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Doganaj is not a
18 neighbourhood of Kotlina. It's a long way away. I don't know what
19 happened there.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Are we talking about the same village? I say it's the village of
22 Doganovici. Is that the same thing?
23 A. I said Doganaj is not my village. I live in Kotlina.
24 JUDGE MAY: Do you know anything about a cluster bomb being found
25 by children, people being killed?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that some children were
2 wounded there, but I don't know about anybody being killed, and I know
3 that the children were taken to Italy for treatment. But Doganaj was
4 another village. I don't know what happened in Doganaj.
5 JUDGE MAY: It's now 11.00. We will adjourn. Half an hour.
6 Would you be back, please, Mr. Loku, at half past eleven.
7 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
9 JUDGE MAY: The registrar wants to change an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: The last exhibit submitted, the bundle of colour
11 photographs, has to be numbered Exhibit 59 and the legend 59A instead of
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Have I understood correctly that you said that you did know about
16 the children who were the victims of the cluster bomb?
17 A. I never heard about a cluster bomb. I know that in another
18 village, two or three children were wounded by a bomb, but whether it was
19 a hand grenade or what, I don't know. They went to Italy for treatment.
20 And this -- it can be demonstrated who they were.
21 Q. And do these names mean anything to you: Hoxha Fisnik, born in
22 1990; Hoxha Valdet, born in 1984; Hoxha Burin [phoen], 1985; Hoxha Edon,
23 1985; Hoxha Osman, 1985. These are the years of birth. These persons
24 were killed and Hoxha Bersnik, 1984; and Hoxha Avdija, 1980, all from the
25 village of Doganovici were wounded. Do these names ring a bell?
1 A. No. I don't know anything about them, and I don't know anything
2 about them.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I make one remark there,
4 comment, because there seems to be misunderstanding fairly frequently with
5 respect to names here on the transcript and geographical names, too. Let
6 me say that geographical maps are an international resource and that you
7 must use the names that exist on the maps.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Do you know about an event that took place when the vice-president
10 of the Municipal Board of the Socialist Party of Kacanik was kidnapped and
11 a worker on the railway and transport company at the Kacanik station, his
12 name was Mahmut Darlishta, with one of the Reka brothers in the Reka
13 Brigid [phoen]. Mahmut was found dead in the village of Dure and, later
14 on, Mahmut's son Esad was abducted. Do you know anything about those
16 A. No. I know nothing about this.
17 Q. And do you know about the kidnapping of Mile Vuksanovic from
18 Pristina, who was otherwise a sanitary inspector who was visiting a friend
19 of his, a hunter in the area? His name was Xhemal Strazha?
20 A. No. I have never heard of these names or these things.
21 Q. Have you heard of another event when a NATO projectile hit the PTT
22 station and destroyed the surrounding facilities in the Kacanik area?
23 Once again, do you know about that?
24 A. No, I haven't heard about this, but the post office is still there
25 and it's still working.
1 Q. And do you know about the killing of Captain Milan Milenkovic in a
2 terrorist attack by a storehouse belonging to Kacanik-Comerc, a privately
3 owned company?
4 A. I don't remember this name, and haven't heard about his murder. I
5 know nothing about this.
6 Q. And do you know about six Serb families from Jankovici and 28 from
7 Kacanik who fled to Stari Kacanik? They were fleeing the terrorists at
8 that time. Do you know about that event?
9 A. I don't know anybody fleeing from terrorists. From Serbian
10 terrorists, yes. Entire villages were emptied and people went to
12 Q. I asked you about the Serb families, the Serb families fleeing
13 from --
14 JUDGE MAY: He said he doesn't know.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. All right. When did you yourself return to Kacanik from
18 A. I returned home from Macedonia around the middle of August,
19 together with my family.
20 Q. Did you hear, when you came back, that in Kacanik a retired
21 policeman by the name of Slobodan Stojkovic had been killed, who returned
22 from Stari Kacanik to his own apartment?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And are you aware of, also dating back to those days, the fact
25 that from Stari Kacanik a group of people were kidnapped - Dragi
1 Stankovic, with his wife Zivka and his daughter Gordana - by the village
2 of Gajre, and that his daughter and wife were raped before his very eyes,
3 and that they were then killed and he himself was badly wounded? Members
4 of KFOR found the dead bodies of Zivka and Gordana by the Partizanski Put,
5 at the junction going towards Brezovica, on the road there. Do you know
6 about that event?
7 A. I haven't heard about this and I don't believe such a thing
8 happened, because the Serbian civilian population no doubt went away
9 before the Serbian bodies arrived -- Serbian forces arrived.
10 Q. Today, in Kacanik, is there a single Serb left?
11 A. There were never any Serbs in Kacanik. I don't know if there are
12 any now.
13 Q. There were Serbs before, as you know, and I'm asking you whether
14 there are any left now.
15 A. There were Serbs in Kacanik i Vjeter, but in Kacanik itself, but
16 apart from the policemen, there were no Serbian inhabitants.
17 Q. Well, you said a moment ago that when you went to the
18 municipality, that you would encounter only Serbs there, and they, of
19 course, were not policemen.
20 A. Yes. They worked in the municipality. There were Serbian
21 municipal workers, but they weren't from Kacanik. They came either from
22 Kacanik i Vjeter or from Shterpce. They weren't from Kacanik itself.
23 Q. But apart from those working in the municipality, you also spoke a
24 moment ago of the fact that they were employed in companies, a company
25 from which, as you said, the Albanians were expelled. So how come you can
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 marry the two, say that there were no Serbs and then say that there were?
2 A. I will say what I said before. Except in the village of Kacanik i
3 Vjeter, in which there were Serbs living, in the other 14 villages they
4 were all Albanians. The population were all Albanians, and employees and
5 policemen and the workers in the factories were Serbs. That was what I
7 Q. Do you know that all 40 Serb houses in Stari Kacanik were looted
8 and burned?
9 A. I saw burned houses when I returned from Macedonia and passed that
11 Q. And are you familiar with the following fact: that the KLA, after
12 the arrival of KFOR in Kacanik, destroyed all catering establishments
13 belonging to Albanians given to them by the Kacanik municipality, or
15 A. The shops were destroyed, but these were shops that were licensed
16 by the Serbian authorities, and they were built along the river and they
17 were built in unsuitable places. They were built along the road which
18 connected the clinic with the town. And that was why they were pulled
19 down. They weren't destroyed by the KLA, but they were demolished by the
21 Q. Do you know any of these names: Riza Jivoreka [phoen], Jumni
22 Berisha [phoen], Kalishi Enver? They are all people whose shops were
23 pulled down. Do you know any of them?
24 A. Yes, I've heard these names, and these are people who are in
25 Kacanik somewhere. If you need them, they can testify themselves about
1 their shops. I know that they do have shops.
2 Q. Is it true that in Kacanik and Djeneral Jankovic, no facility was
3 burned or destroyed except the house from which firing came, and there was
4 firing at the MUP and the army, the police and the army?
5 JUDGE MAY: Can you help as to that or not?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.
7 But there were no houses along the main road between Kacanik and Han i
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. I'm talking about the places Kacanik and Djeneral Jankovic, those
11 two places.
12 A. What do you mean by this?
13 Q. I said that not a single facility was destroyed except for one
14 house, from which they opened fire at the members of the MUP and the
16 A. I don't understand what you're saying.
17 Q. I want to know whether that is true or not.
18 JUDGE MAY: He doesn't understand the question. Now, rephrase it,
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I claim that in Kacanik and Djeneral Jankovic, according to my
22 information, not a single facility was destroyed, nor was it shot at,
23 except for one house, a house from which there was shooting at members of
24 the MUP and the army. I don't know what is not clear in that question.
25 A. Now I am clear about the question. You are wrong. You have got
1 wrong information, because over half of Kacanik houses are destroyed as
2 well as those of Han i Elezit's. They were burned by the Serb police and
3 army forces. There are many witnesses to that. Not only the houses but
4 people were killed and mutilated. All this was committed by your army and
6 Q. All right. I claim the opposite. I was just asking you whether
7 you knew about it or not. But let's move on and go on to what you said
8 about the 24th of March. First of all, you said that the army shot from
9 tanks, fired from tanks, but that the shells did not fall on the village
10 itself but around the village.
11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. What is the question?
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Does he know that there were KLA positions located there?
14 A. I already said and I am repeating that they didn't shoot from
15 tanks' barrels but from weapons placed on the tanks and other weapons
16 carried by your soldiers and policemen. They shot at random. They shot
17 at the houses of the village. They didn't shoot at a certain target
18 because nobody was firing back at them from the village. I was there and
19 saw everything.
20 Q. You say that nobody shot -- did any shooting from the village, and
21 my information says that seven members of the KLA, wearing uniforms, died
22 there. Do you know about that? They were killed in the fighting that
23 took place in the village.
24 A. There wasn't any clashes in the village, and there weren't any KLA
25 troops there. The KLA troops were far away in the mountains. That's why
1 there wasn't any clash there nor any KLA members killed but only civilians
2 were killed.
3 Q. And do you know that after that, on the spot, an investigating
4 Judge and prosecutor from Rosevic went out to investigate and that all the
5 documents in connection with the conflict that took place in your village
6 and the death of those seven KLA members was sent to the Court in
8 JUDGE MAY: He has said there were not KLA members killed. So the
9 question involves something which he hasn't accepted.
10 Do you know anything about the court in Pristina or anything about
11 the investigating Judge?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't seen any investigating
13 Judges, with the exception of Serb police and army mutilating and killing
14 innocent people.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. So you didn't see those seven members of the KLA that were killed
17 there either.
18 JUDGE MAY: He said not, Mr. Milosevic. He's denied it. Now,
19 there's no point putting it to him again.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. All right. Does he know that the police, after the event,
22 searched the pits, the holes that he's talking about, and that in those
23 pits or holes, they just found weapons, and a large quantity at that of
24 tins and the remnants of KLA equipment because those pits served as a
25 basis -- as a base, sorry, base, of the KLA in Kotlina?
1 A. This is all made up. The KLA never operated in our village, and
2 whoever wished to join the KLA ranks, he might do so because the KLA
3 troops were in the mountains. So these are all -- this is all made up by
4 the Serb power.
5 Q. Those two holes or pits which they descended into with ladders,
6 one was five metres deep, the other was seven metres deep, and they were
7 joined together and they served as a warehouse. Did you know about that?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 Q. When the police arrived, there were no bodies in those holes
10 except for those weapons. How come nobody reported those dead bodies at
11 the time?
12 A. I already said and can repeat many -- as many times as you wish
13 that there were no bodies there. There were no arms there. These two
14 holes were dug by some peasant many years ago who was looking for water,
15 and he was unable to find any waters, but the holes remained there empty
16 all the time. And what you are claiming here is just a concoction, I
17 would say.
18 Q. All right. You said that on that day, and I made a note of that,
19 the soldiers left the village. How do you explain the fact then that,
20 after the army had left the area, nobody went to those wells once the army
21 had left? You said when the army left, you all rushed to see what was
22 happening -- what had happened to the livestock, the cattle, but you
23 didn't rush to see those victims that you talked about, the casualties.
24 So how do you explain this?
25 A. I have stated everything in my written statements. After the
1 departure of the occupation, criminal Serb troops from the village,
2 Chetniks and police troops, after their departure, I and others returned
3 to the village. We knew what had happened in those holes that I talked
4 about, but it was night. People went there to see what had happened, but
5 it was impossible. It was very dark up in the mountain. They couldn't
6 see anything. And it was only after some days that we realised what had
7 happened there. We saw what had happened there.
8 The father of Rexhep Loku, I said that his two sons were killed.
9 He found there belong -- things belonging. I mean, it is very difficult
10 to say what he had found. Remains of their bodies, pieces of fingers
11 left, broken teeth, stained clothes, stained with blood, things like that,
12 as well as a Serb cap belonging to police was found there. KFOR troops
13 got that cap with them.
14 Q. You said yesterday that when the army left, you went to see to the
15 cattle and that nobody went towards those wells. Why did you forget the
16 casualties of which there were some 20-odd allegedly --
17 JUDGE MAY: He's just answered the question. He said some people
18 went there but it was dark. Now, that's his answer.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if you say he gave an answer,
20 all right, but he didn't give an answer to why nobody reported it if it
21 was true.
22 JUDGE MAY: Very well. The question is this: It's not clear to
23 who somebody should have reported it, but the question is why did nobody
24 report it?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't get the question.
1 JUDGE MAY: Well, I suspect it's been saying why didn't you report
2 it to the Serb authorities? Why didn't you ring up or something of the
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the Serb authorities had already
5 committed the crime. How could we report it?
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. All right. But the investigative Judge and the prosecutor went
9 there to the crime scene. So wasn't it logical for someone to draw their
10 attention to that? The investigating Judge or the prosecutor certainly
11 had not committed any crime. They came there for an on-site
12 investigation. How come nobody drew their attention to this?
13 JUDGE MAY: Can you help us to that?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village was empty. There was
15 nobody left. People were killed. The civilian population was headed
16 towards Kacanik. The others, like me, were hidden, were in hiding
17 places. And I don't know if there was anyone else, with the exception of
18 police and army troops, there. One thing we all knew, that who was
19 captured was killed on the spot.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. According to your statement, there were KLA members around your
22 village, as you had put it; there were operations between the army and the
23 police and the KLA; and on the basis of what you've been saying, it was
24 only civilians who were getting killed. So who was getting killed:
25 civilians or members of the KLA?
1 JUDGE MAY: I think he's dealt with all this. We're now going
2 into argument. Mr. Milosevic, you've had more than an hour and a half
3 with this witness. Now, unless there's some new topic which is relevant,
4 it's time to bring your cross-examination to a close.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll bring it to a
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Distinguished Honour, if you want, I
8 may give an answer to that.
9 JUDGE MAY: No. You've dealt with all these matters.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Are you aware, in relation to these events that were first carried
12 in the Albanian newspaper Fakti, on the 16th of April, that practically
13 all statements are given afterwards, after that date, that is, and that in
14 the OSCE book, it says that:
15 [As read] "Therefore, what could superficially seem as
16 identicalness in the statements of witnesses could have been coloured in
17 some way by newspaper articles."
18 That's what their book says. Do you bring this together with the
19 event itself?
20 A. I have never given any testimony to Fakti newspaper and do not know
21 what it has been carrying. I have only stated what I know to the ICTY
22 Judges, investigators, even though that I didn't know that the day would
23 come when I would be here. But this is what happened, and I am happy to
24 be here.
25 Q. And do you know that what is said there in that book that I've
1 been referring to, that peasants were interviewed on the 30th of September
2 and that they confirmed that 11 members of the KLA were among the
3 casualties, according to their statements?
4 JUDGE MAY: He has given his evidence about the KLA. Now, there's
5 no need for constant repetition.
6 Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, since the accused has been repeatedly
8 referring to the OSCE book, I believe, in fairness to the Court, that the
9 Court ought to have copies of this book. He seems to be quoting from
10 pages 218 and 219, at the moment, of the OSCE book, as told, which is
11 projected as an exhibit in our case. It has not, of course, been
12 entered. I wonder if it might be helpful to the Court to have a copy of
13 that, since it's been extensively cross-examined on, much like you receive
14 statements from time to time.
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, it may be helpful, but let's try and finish this
16 witness's evidence, please.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: But that's the offer, that should the Court want
18 it, we would like to tender it.
19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
20 Now, Mr. Milosevic, have you anything else for this witness?
21 Otherwise, we must close the examination.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do. I do. I don't have a lot
23 left, but I do have something left nevertheless, related to what we've
24 just heard.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. On the other hand, I'm interested in when you gave statements, and
2 to whom, in relation to this.
3 A. I gave my statement in Skopje. If I am not mistaken, it was the
4 end of April. I don't remember the exact date.
5 Q. To whom? The end of April, but to whom? Only the representatives
6 of the OTP or somebody else?
7 A. The representatives of the OTP, of The Hague Tribunal. I have the
8 evidence with me, I mean the name of the person who interviewed me, if you
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I have been
11 asking you about, because if it was only to the representatives of the
12 OTP, then the OTP, according to your Rules here, is duty-bound to
13 safeguard this information. I am drawing your attention to this question,
14 not the witness. How can this same thing appear in the book, then? Is it
15 the Prosecution that --
16 JUDGE MAY: Don't argue now.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
18 JUDGE MAY: If you've got some questions about the statement, ask
19 it, but otherwise we'll bring this to an end.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. In this paper that accompanies your written statement, it says why
22 he doesn't have a passport: lost. Why he does not have a birth
23 certificate: lost. Why he does not have other documents: lost. How did
24 you lose all these documents of yours?
25 A. Whoever had the documents had them on him [as interpreted]. I
1 don't know. I had my own ID when I went to Macedonia, where I was
2 registered as a refugee. I don't know about the others.
3 Q. All right. All right. That is just contrary to what it says
4 here. Here's this paper of yours, I mean the paper of this institution,
5 where it says "Hazbi Loku" and all these particulars: date of birth; place
6 of birth; passport, does not have it, lost; birth certificate, lost; other
7 documents, lost. So then this information provided here is inaccurate.
8 You actually did have all these documents, didn't you?
9 A. I had only the ID. The passport I had left at home. I didn't
10 have my passport. It was expired and it was no good to me.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I just want to make yet
12 another note. Since it is clear to everyone that the Prosecution has
13 available all these documents, including the Verification Mission of the
14 OSCE, the Prosecutor is no doubt manipulating this witness, trying to
15 portray events differently from what they actually were like.
16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you are not to make comments and
17 arguments now.
18 Mr. Tapuskovic, have you got any questions for this witness?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am making a comment, Mr. May,
20 because --
21 JUDGE MAY: No, Mr. Milosevic. You can make your comments in due
22 course. Now, I'm going to ask Mr. Tapuskovic to begin his
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. This
25 time I will indeed only adhere to the events related to the 9th of March,
1 the 24th of March only. I shall be putting questions related to the
2 statement that he, Mr. Loku, that is, gave on the 4th of June, 1999 - it
3 was submitted to us - and also this statement that Slobodan Milosevic has
4 been referring to. I'm not going to insist on that, but I would like this
5 other statement that he's been referring to, if it does exist, could the
6 Prosecution please make it available to you, the first one of the 12th of
7 June and also this other one that you gave in Albania. I think that you
8 should also have it before you.
9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall be very brief.
11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, yes.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't know whether I misunderstood the question,
13 but is it the intention to have the Court have a copy of the witness's
14 statement? Is that what he's going to cross-examine on?
15 JUDGE MAY: Let's hear the cross-examination.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Fine. I'm sorry. I misunderstood. I thought Your
17 Honour's "yes" was that.
18 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Loku, yesterday, when you spoke about what
20 had happened in the village of Ivanje, you said that around the village of
21 Ivanje, there were KLA soldiers and that they helped the inhabitants of
22 Ivanje to avoid the worst destiny. That is what you said yesterday, by
23 way of an explanation.
24 A. Yes, that's what I said, and that's how things were. There were
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. You said around the village of Ivanje. But in the statement that
2 you gave on the 4th of June, 1999, you said:
3 "I knew that in Ivanje" - in Ivanje, not around Ivanje - "in
4 Ivanje there are members of the KLA, and I believe they were resisting the
5 Serb forces. I could see a lot of smoke rising from this village."
6 That's what you said then.
7 A. Yes. I said around Ivaja. On the 8th of March, there were
8 clashes between KLA liberation forces and the Serb occupation forces.
9 At the same time, the inhabitants of the village I think were
10 there, but during the resistance, it lasted three days between the KLA and
11 the Serb forces, they managed to flee the village and escape the worst,
12 even though a civilian was killed. And we found that out later. He was a
13 sick person. Xhemil Mulaku was his name. He was killed in the vicinity
14 of the village while he was trying to hide away. He was sick and was
15 unable to flee with the others.
16 Q. Thank you. So it was not around the village. I'm telling you
17 that you said then in the village of Ivanje there were members of the KLA
18 and that then all of this happened, this three-day fighting. Not around
19 Ivanje, in Ivanje.
20 A. I said "around," because in Ivaja there was a population which the
21 KLA didn't stay with the population. It stayed in the mountains, I said.
22 Q. So it is not correct what it says here in your statement, that you
23 knew that in Ivanje there were members of the KLA?
24 A. Maybe it has been written wrong, but the fact is that even the
25 mountain where the KLA troops were stationed belonged to the territory of
1 Ivaja, but they were not in the village.
2 Q. Thank you. I'm just saying to you that this is what you said
3 then. That a mistake or --
4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, you've dealt with this now.
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. Let us now move on to the 9th of March, in the morning. You said
7 yesterday that shells were falling all over the village, that the shelling
8 of the village came from the east and the north and that then you had to
9 decide to leave the village and that that is indeed how you left the
10 village. Did I understand you correctly?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. However, in your statement dated the 4th of June, 1999, you said:
13 "On the 9th of March, at around 4.00, two rockets were fired over my
14 village. These were rockets that illuminate the village. This lasted for
15 only about 20 seconds. We the villagers were then afraid that the village
16 was about to be attacked and we were preparing to flee. The villagers
17 that had seen the rockets had started to wake up friends in other
19 And then you said, "Due to these villages [as interpreted] fired
20 over the villages, about 30 villagers scattered about," and all in all, it
21 was the rockets that were the reason that made you go in the direction of
22 Globocica. Not the shelling because there was no shelling. That's the
23 way you'd put it then.
24 A. You've mixed things up, as I see. On the 9th of March, there was
25 shelling around the village, first sporadically and then incessantly. All
1 these things I experienced, it's difficult to put them down on paper. We
2 were the only ones left. We heard that all the other villagers of the
3 surrounding villages had been sent to Macedonia. We too, therefore,
4 wanted to flee the village.
5 Our village was visible from three Serbian positions, and they
6 continually moved round the village. They could see us from Serbian army
7 positions at the place called Kashan. They could see us from Gllobocica
8 and also round from the position in Kaburanca. In other words, we were
9 always under their control. So it's quite ridiculous what you say about
10 the KLA being there.
11 Q. Mr. Loku, I didn't mention the KLA at all. I said that you said
12 that your village had been shelled. You did not say that earlier on to
13 the investigators. You said the two rockets were fired that only
14 illuminated your village and that that was the reason why you had left.
15 You did not mention that a single rocket was fired.
16 This is the statement you made on the 4th of June, 1999. I did
17 not make a mistake. I've read it ten times, believe me.
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The witness has dealt with that.
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. When the column arrived in the village of Preshec, when you left
21 the village, you explained what you saw. You saw burned and burning
22 houses. You said, "From my position, I could see clearly only two houses,
23 and I saw when they started to burn." I believe you that that's what you
24 saw. But you said yesterday that from there you saw, and you said it
25 several times at that, that all these houses were being looted, that
1 things were being taken out of them. You'd never mentioned that before.
2 A. From the point I was looking at, I saw the first two or four
3 houses of the neighbourhood. That was not a village. It was a
4 neighbourhood of Kotlina. The neighbourhood was empty because its
5 inhabitants had left it several days ago and had gone to the centre,
6 fearing that it was being fired from Serb positions of Gllobocica. So the
7 Serb forces, when they entered there, I saw them looting these two, three,
8 or four houses. Then later, we realised that all these houses were
9 burnt. None of them remained intact.
10 Q. I have understood you. I understood that yesterday. That's the
11 way you put it yesterday. However, before, you said you only saw two
12 houses on fire. You saw these houses burning, and I believe that's what
13 you saw. But you never mentioned that you had seen things taken out of
14 these houses. You said that the houses were burning from the inside.
15 A. I could see the police and the soldiers going in and coming out of
16 the houses. They were empty of inhabitants. And then they set fire to
17 the houses, and wherever they went in, they looted and raided. It was
18 fact of life. Everybody knew, because this was happening all the time
19 everywhere. The women had been robbed of their jewellery, and everything
20 was --
21 Q. Thank you. I asked you what you saw, and before you said what you
22 saw, and I believe you, but yesterday you said --
23 JUDGE MAY: We have been through this now and you have made your
24 point, Mr. Tapuskovic. Can we go on, please?
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I think you're quite right. I
1 would like to draw the attention of the Court to the following. It's in
2 the English version. That's why I decided to ask about it today. It's on
3 page 5, in the last paragraph, the beginning of the last paragraph, page 5
4 of the English version.
5 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... please. Give it a
7 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 60.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. See, it refers to the well and those two holes, and the time
11 mentioned is about 1530 hours. Mr. Loku, is that what you saw, what
12 started happening? What you said yesterday about people being thrown into
13 those two holes, was this at 1530 hours, that it started around then?
14 A. After the departure of women and children from the village, then
15 they were -- the men were taken to the holes. It was about that time. I
16 didn't keep a diary or didn't keep watching at the time, but this is more
17 or less the time that I think it happened. I was feeling endangered
19 Q. You know that the army and the police were taking them, and you
20 said that there were about 150 of them, that they were taking them up a
21 small hill; is that correct?
22 A. They were taking them up towards those two holes.
23 Q. No. You said that they were climbing up a small hill, that they
24 were taking them up a small hill.
25 A. The Serb police and the army were fewer in numbers than police,
1 were taking those civilians, with their hands behind their necks, after
2 the departure of women and children, I said, towards these two holes up in
3 the mountain. But it is in a higher place above the village. There is a
4 high hill. It might be 200 or 300 metres above the sea level.
5 Q. Was the distance that you were at -- you were viewing it from
6 which distance?
7 A. I was viewing it from a place which was about 400, 450 metres away
8 in a straight line from these two holes. It was in the southern part.
9 The holes were situated in the northern part.
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
11 place on the overhead projector Exhibit 84 [sic].
12 JUDGE MAY: 84?
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] 54. 54. I have a blown-up
14 version which does exist in the Prosecution files. The Prosecution did
15 not exhibit it, and I'm surprised that they didn't because you can see
16 things much better there. And it is in the Prosecution files, so could we
17 please have this blown-up photograph shown rather than the first
18 photograph. The Prosecution does have it in its files. And then could we
19 have this shown to the Court as well.
20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic --
21 You have a blown-up version of this?
22 MR. RYNEVELD: We have many photographs. Time doesn't permit me
23 to put them all in. I don't know which one my friend is showing me,
24 but --
25 JUDGE MAY: Just put it on the ELMO, the one that you want seen.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Please take a look. It's the
2 same photograph that the Prosecutor showed but it's just much bigger.
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, what do you want the witness to look at?
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Could the witness now please show the spot where he was and where
6 he was while he saw all of this. See, this is a forest.
7 A. Yes. There is a forest, but it was divested of leaves. There
8 were no leaves, so everything was visible.
9 Q. There are a lot of evergreens there, too. Can't you see that, a
10 lot of evergreen trees, conifers?
11 A. On 24th of March there were no evergreens. Everything was bare.
12 I could see everything.
13 Q. Could you please just show us the spot where you were.
14 A. The spot where I was is not in this picture, but it was somewhere
15 here at this corner.
16 Q. Further away, you mean. All right. And now from a 400-metre
17 distance, as you put it a few minutes ago, you saw all these persons by
18 name and surname as they were being killed. You saw from a 400-metre
19 distance how they were being killed and thrown into that hole. You saw
20 them all, knowing exactly who they were, name and surname. That is what
21 you answered when you were asked awhile ago.
22 A. You have mistaken what I said. I didn't say at that -- I didn't
23 know who they were by name and last name at that very moment. I only saw
24 what was happening to them, whereas their names and last names we managed
25 to find out later when we -- we heard about that when we were in
1 Macedonia. I couldn't see their faces, of course, from the distance I
2 was. I could only see their movements and what was happening.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this picture, which is also
4 in the Prosecution files, be shown. It shows the two pits, the two holes,
5 from nearby.
6 Q. Are these the two holes surrounded by a forest, by big trees? You
7 can't see a thing. Please take a look at it.
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The Prosecution has this picture,
9 but they didn't show it.
10 Q. Are these the two holes?
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And would the Prosecution kindly
12 present that evidence so that the Trial Chamber can take a look straight
14 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment. Let the witness deal
15 with it first of all.
16 Do you recognise those holes or not?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can make out these holes, but it
18 doesn't look like them to me.
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have two more photographs.
20 Q. Could you tell me whether you recognise those, of the spot
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And these are all from the
23 Prosecution file.
24 A. Yes. Here you can see it clearly.
25 JUDGE MAY: Would you put it on the ELMO, please.
1 Yes. What's the question?
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The question is this: This is a
3 small area, deep in the forest, lots of big trees around it, and you can't
4 see anything from the big trees, not from five or six metres away, where
5 there were 150 to 200 policemen. Now, the question is --
6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, it's not for you to give evidence.
7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. I agree. Thank you.
8 JUDGE MAY: The witness has said that he could see. Now, unless
9 you've got a particular question about this photograph, we'll move on.
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The question is: If he was at a
11 distance of 450 metres, how was he able to see what was going on deep in
12 the forest somewhere, in one particular spot, which was surrounded by
13 these large trees, as can be seen on these photographs?
14 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered that. He said he could see.
15 Did you have anything to help you besides your own eyes?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hills and the forest and the
19 holes are surrounded by oak trees, and it's a steep area, and you could
20 see. Because it was on a slope, you could see everything. It's a hill, I
21 would say very steep, and there are oak trees, and the oaks are not so
22 close to one another as the photograph seems to suggest, and at that time
23 of year, the oak trees were bare.
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That was the 24th of March, which
25 means spring, well into spring in those parts, and the trees have green
1 leaves during that time of year.
2 JUDGE MAY: He said there weren't any leaves on the trees. Now,
3 Mr. Tapuskovic, are you disputing that this event occurred?
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I am not disputing it, nor
5 did I have any intention of doing so, that in those holes they found what
6 they found. The only question is how this came about and what actually
7 took place. But I am not challenging it, no. Far be it for me. But I
8 have to ask myself, under the present circumstances, why the Prosecution
9 didn't show all the photographs it has, for us to be able to see for
11 JUDGE MAY: You've heard the reason. Now, have you any more
12 questions for this witness, please?
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, if it is big trees with
14 thick trunks, and if it was March, and I know full well that the trees are
15 green --
16 JUDGE MAY: We have been over this now a number of times. The
17 witness says he could see. There were no leaves on the tree, he says.
18 Now, we have his evidence. If we have any evidence to the contrary, we'll
19 consider it in due course, but I think you've really covered this topic as
20 far as you can.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask for the
22 Court's indulgence, that is to say that the Prosecution provide the Trial
23 Chamber with the material it has, which are these photographs. If that is
24 not possible today, then the Trial Chamber will be able to notice certain
25 facts without me having to comment. I did believe that the Prosecution
1 would show the photographs, just like it did the ones a moment ago,
2 because it's all in one file, a whole set of photographs. They have
3 them. I have seen them. The Court has been provided with them. So ...
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, do you have any evidence to give
5 the Chamber as to when these photographs were taken?
6 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. When we submit the forensic
7 report, which I believe has been tendered -- all these photos that my
8 learned friend is now referring to were taken by the Austrian forensic
9 team in September of 1999, September. We have to be selective
10 about -- time doesn't permit us to put bundles of photographs in. I chose
11 the photographs which I thought best depicted the scene. Now, if my
12 friend wants those in, we have them and we can provide them to the Court.
13 That is not the issue.
14 JUDGE MAY: Would you do that, please.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, we shall.
16 JUDGE MAY: Now, anything else for this witness?
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Yesterday he said that after seeing the people being thrown into
19 the pits, that a little later on he heard an explosion. How much later?
20 When did you hear the explosion? How much later was it?
21 A. This powerful explosion, it was before the evening.
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter asks the witness to repeat his
23 answer to the question.
24 A. This explosion at the holes happened after 5.00, at about half
25 past 5.00, in other words, shortly before the withdrawal of the Serbian
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. All right. But earlier on in your statement dated the 4th of
4 June, you said that the explosion could be heard some 30 minutes later,
5 that is to say, after the moment you saw the event happen.
6 A. I said that the event lasted about 30 minutes, all what happened,
7 but this explosion that I talked about happened a little bit later.
8 Q. You said some 30 minutes later, from the point where the hole was,
9 a strong explosion could be heard. That's what you said in your previous
11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. He's answered that. There's no need to answer.
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Q. Just one more thing. You said on the occasion that as soon as all
14 the Serbs left the place, after they had managed to put the tank right,
15 you went to tend to the livestock, to the cattle, and you left the village
16 at 2200 hours. Now, if that is so, I have to ask you once again why
17 nobody went to see what had happened to the people up there while it was
18 still daylight. Why didn't you go straight away to see what had
19 happened? Why did you not do this? And then that will be my last
20 question. I have no further questions.
21 A. During the day, the Serb forces committed atrocities against the
22 population, and we didn't dare go near where they were. We went to that
23 place where [as interpreted] they left the village. That is how it
25 Q. But you didn't go on that same day, did you, when they left?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. The Serb police and army left in the evening, when it was getting
2 dark. We went to Macedonia in the night, at about 10.00 or 11.00 p.m., I
3 think, after what happened.
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Thank you, Your Honours.
6 MR. RYNEVELD: No re-examination. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Loku, that concludes your evidence. You are now
8 free to go. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give
9 your evidence.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for making
11 it possible.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.
14 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution calls Bajram Bucaliu.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you would like to take a seat.
21 WITNESS: BAJRAM BUCALIU
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examined by Ms. Romano:
24 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, can you please state your full name for the Court.
25 A. I am called Bajram Bucaliu.
1 Q. Now, with a yes or no answer: You are 44 years old, and you were
2 born in Gnjilane on the 16th of June, 1957?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You are married and you have three children?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Since 1964, you have been a resident of the village of Fshati i
7 Vjeter, Albanian name, and Staro Selo, the Serbian version, in the
8 municipality of Urosevac/Ferizaj in Kosovo?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. May I have the witness shown -- it's OTP reference number 2274.
11 MS. ROMANO: And I have copies here. This is a map, a new version
12 of a map that has already been disclosed to the amici and to, I think, the
13 Court also. It's just the same map without the spots, blue spots. It is
14 a map of Kosovo.
15 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, can you please look at this map and can you indicate
16 to the Court where is your village located.
17 A. Yes. It is here at this place.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bucaliu. Mr. Bucaliu, you worked at the Ferizaj
19 railway station from 1982 until 1999?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you are currently working as a supervisor in the petrol
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In your village in Fshati i Vjeter?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What is your ethnicity?
2 A. I am an Albanian.
3 Q. Were most of the people in your village Albanians?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And were there any Serbs living in your village?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you have an idea approximately how many Albanians and how many
9 A. In my village, there were about 900 Albanians and 60 to 70 Serbs.
10 Q. Was your relationship with your Serbs -- with the Serb neighbours
12 A. Yes. At the time, up to 1990, it was relatively good. But after
13 1990, it changed.
14 Q. Okay. We will get to the point where it changed. Coming back to
15 your employment at the Ferizaj railway station. From 1982 until 1987, you
16 worked as a signalman at the Ferizaj railway station. That's correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And at the same railway station, you worked as a cargo inspector
19 from 1987 until 1992?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. And as a cargo cashier from 1992 until 1999?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. And how far is the railway station from your village,
24 Mr. Bucaliu?
25 A. The railway station is about three and a half kilometres from my
2 Q. And you used to go every day from your village to the railway
3 station to work?
4 A. Yes, every working day.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. ROMANO: I propose to show the witness -- it is OTP reference
7 number 95, and it is a hand-drawn sketch done by the witness and it shows
8 his village. I have copies here.
9 THE REGISTRAR: The map will be numbered Prosecution Exhibit 61.
10 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.
11 THE REGISTRAR: And the drawing Exhibit 62.
12 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.
13 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, do you recognise this hand drawing?
14 A. Yes, I recognise it.
15 Q. Did you make that?
16 A. Yes. I drew it myself.
17 Q. And is this your village?
18 A. Yes. It's my village.
19 Q. Can you -- so can you please indicate to the Court where -- where
20 is your house located?
21 A. Yes. I will show them. Here are the three houses of my brothers
22 and myself.
23 Q. How many people live with you?
24 A. Until the start of the war, there were 16 of us living in the same
25 yard in several houses, but now I'm only with my own family which has five
2 Q. And which direction, using the same drawing, which direction is
3 the railway station?
4 A. [Indicates]
5 Q. And can you also explain the road? Where does this road lead to?
6 A. From my village to the Ferizaj-Gjilan asphalted road. It goes on
7 to the station.
8 Q. Which are the neighbouring towns or villages?
9 A. The surrounding villages bordering on my village are Sojeva.
10 Bibaj, Komogllave, Varosh. These are the neighbouring villages and also
11 the outskirts of Ferizaj.
12 Q. How far is it from Pristina?
13 A. From Prishtina to the crossroads of Ferizaj, it is 35 kilometres.
14 Q. And how far is it from the border to Macedonia?
15 A. This crossroads is also about 30 kilometres from the border with
17 Q. How many houses do you have in your village prior to the war?
18 A. Before the war, the village had about 120 houses.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bucaliu. Before March 1999, how many employees
20 worked at the Ferizaj railway station?
21 A. Before March 1999, there were about 25 staff at the Ferizaj
22 railway station. According to requirements, the number fluctuated.
23 Q. And how many of them were Albanians?
24 A. There were about 17 or 18 Albanians and about eight Serbs.
25 Q. Was your supervisor Albanian or Serb?
1 A. He was a Serb.
2 Q. At any time did you have an Albanian as your supervisor?
3 A. The stationmaster, during the time that I was working there after
4 1982, was never an Albanian except occasionally when there was -- when
5 there was a replacement, it was sometimes an Albanian, but there was never
6 an Albanian appointed to the job.
7 Q. And were the relations between the Albanians and the Serbs in your
8 work good?
9 A. Yes. We had quite good relations with my Serbian colleagues. For
10 a time, that is, up until the 1990s. But after 1990, relations started to
11 cool. Personal relations began to cool during the 1990s.
12 Q. What -- what was the reason that made the relationship between
13 Albanians and Serbs cool down?
14 A. I think this happened because things happened. Unpleasant things
15 happened in the political arena, such as the constitutional changes. This
16 was a reason which had a great influence on this cooling of relations
17 between the Albanians and the Serbs, because the constitutional changes
18 denied us many rights which we'd had until that time, such as, for
19 instance, the use of language at the workplace.
20 Q. How was the language --
21 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Romano, I think it's 1.00, it's just after 1.00.
22 We'll adjourn now.
23 Mr. Bucaliu, we're going to adjourn until half past two. During
24 this adjournment and any others there may be, don't speak to anybody about
25 your evidence until it's over, and don't let anybody speak to you about
1 it, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team. Could you
2 be back, please, at half past two.
3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.
3 MS. ROMANO:
4 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, if I understand correctly, constitutional changes in
5 1990 denied the Albanians the right to use the Albanian language at work.
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. Can you explain to the Court how was this change implemented in
8 your work?
9 A. It was implemented, and at first, we tried not to observe this
10 constitution, and for a year -- after a year, we were given various
11 warnings and various punishments, but finally we were obliged either to
12 accept this thing or to leave our jobs. And at this time anybody who
13 didn't obey these rules would either lose his job or would be held
14 accountable and would have to do as the Serbs said.
15 To give you a specific example, when the station name plate was
16 changed, when the name Ferizaj was written in Albanian, it was changed to
17 Urosevac in Serbian, and the Albanian sign was taken away and a Serbian
18 sign was brought in with only "Urosevac" written on it. To better
19 illustrate this, there were some other examples in which my workmates, our
20 wages were docked if we didn't observe these rules.
21 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, just to clarify to the Court, what was the language
22 or the languages used in your work before 1990?
23 A. In our work, Albanian and Serbian were both official languages,
24 and we communicated in both languages with our Serbian colleagues too.
25 But after this, we weren't allowed to use our language in official
1 writing, and in the official instructions, and our language rights were
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'd like to find out whether the rule or the law
4 which led to the loss of a job at work applied both to public and private
6 MS. ROMANO: First, Your Honour, I don't know if the witness said
7 that was --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, he has spoken of people being dismissed if
9 they didn't use -- or if they used Albanian language at the railway where
10 he worked.
11 MS. ROMANO: Yes.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: And presuming that was a government-run railway,
13 I'm trying to find out whether people also lost their jobs if they worked
14 in private enterprises.
15 MS. ROMANO:
16 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, are you aware if the imposition of the Serbian
17 language was also in private companies?
18 A. Yes, of course. Official documentation in private firms too had
19 to be carried out in Serbian. For instance, firms that hitherto had names
20 in Albanian were obliged to change their names and to write their names in
21 Serbian and in the Cyrillic alphabet. Of course, those firms that wanted
22 to continue trading had to apply this law, otherwise they were closed
24 MS. ROMANO: That clarifies, Your Honour?
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
1 MS. ROMANO:
2 Q. At your work, Mr. Bucaliu, did your Albanian colleagues, did they
3 know, all of them, did they know the Serbian language?
4 A. Yes. Usually they knew Serbian. The overwhelming majority of
5 Albanians knew Serbian and were able to communicate in it.
6 Q. And was there any punishment for the breaching of this rule? I
7 think you mentioned before.
8 A. Yes, there were cases, plenty of them. For instance, if you'd
9 like a name of somebody who was punished, in general, all the Albanians
10 that worked there, we were all punished at least once with a loss of 50
11 per cent of our earnings sometimes for three months or up to six months.
12 Q. Was there any colleague of yours who did not know how to speak the
13 Serbian language?
14 A. No. Maybe there were some that spoke with difficulty, but we
15 didn't have colleagues who spoke none at all.
16 Q. Thank you very much. Prior to the NATO bombing, were the police
17 or the army in the Ferizaj station?
18 A. Yes, they were. Even before the NATO bombing, the police were
19 there. They used to go round. Perhaps not the army, except when -- when
20 they had a specific task at the railway station such as a military
21 transport. Otherwise, the police used to come round.
22 Q. So was it usual for you to see the army or the police in the
24 A. Yes. The police often -- not often but sometimes. But it wasn't
25 normal to see the army except in certain specific circumstances. When
1 they had a military transport, quite simply.
2 Q. Do you remember any occasion where there was not a military
3 transport but anyway you saw military people?
4 A. Yes, there were such cases. Especially there were officers who
5 sometimes came to the station and consulted with the stationmaster. I
6 don't know what about, but they did maintain ties between themselves. But
7 this was not often.
8 Q. You worked at the railway station up to 1999. Why did you stop
9 working there?
10 A. I worked at the railway station at Ferizaj until the 14 April
11 1999. Until then, I worked -- in fact, I worked until the 25th of March,
12 1999. But on the 25th of March, after the start of the NATO bombing, when
13 I went to work on the following day, my boss said, "From now on, you're
14 not going to work, but just report to your workplace but don't work."
15 This was very strange what he said, and I said, "Why?" And he said, "It's
16 an order from above." That's all he said. And I was surprised, to tell
17 the truth.
18 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, were the Albanians the only employees who were asked
19 not to come to work any more?
20 A. Yes, it was only the Albanians.
21 Q. And were the Serbs the only employees who worked at that station
22 after March 1999?
23 A. Yes. The Serbs, our colleagues who had been working there, they
24 stayed on working at the station.
25 Q. Even after that time, did you come back to the railway station
1 even after you were told not to come to work any more?
2 A. I would go every now and then. Not every day because it was
3 difficult to move around, and it was dangerous to travel at that time.
4 But nevertheless, I would report at my workplace every now and then but
5 not every day.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, the witness brought with him to The
8 Hague the traffic log of trains from the Ferizaj railway station, and it's
9 from the period between 1st January until 19 June 1999. I have copies.
10 Copies have been disclosed to the accused and the amici on the 5th of
11 March, right after the witness arrived to The Hague, and I have here more
12 copies for the Court.
13 The original will be available for inspection, and the witness
14 will be using the original throughout his testimony, but this log is part
15 of the Ferizaj railway station documentation archive, and the witness has
16 the duty to return it back when he returns to Kosovo.
17 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Romano, what is the purpose of putting this log
18 before us?
19 MS. ROMANO: The witness worked at the railway station before as
20 an on-duty signalman, and he was -- used to input the data of the trains
21 in this log. So he's familiar with the procedures of the information.
22 JUDGE MAY: No. What I asked is what is the purpose? Why are you
23 putting this into evidence?
24 MS. ROMANO: Because we want to -- it's part of the Prosecution to
25 show the part -- the use of the trains and the movement of trains during
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 all the deportation of Kosovo Albanians, and the frequency that --
2 JUDGE MAY: Well, Ms. Romano, you must take this fairly rapidly.
3 We have been imposing time limits on the Defence, and we must also do so
4 on the Prosecution. So you must get through this witness in chief by the
6 MS. ROMANO: Yes. I intend to do so, Your Honour, and I will try
7 to get as quick as I can with the log.
8 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
9 MS. ROMANO: I also have a draft translation from the headings.
10 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, as part of your duties as a signalman at the railway
11 station, you were responsible for inserting the information about the
12 incoming and outcoming trains in a traffic log; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, that's right, at the time when I was working as a signalman.
14 But this log, this is the same kind of log that was used at the time when
15 I worked on this job, and it's the same procedure.
16 Q. Thank you. So if you can, taking the first and the second pages
17 as an example, the dates the 2nd to the 4th of January, can you explain to
18 the Court how can someone identify the passenger trains and the cargo
19 trains in the log? Very briefly, Mr. Bucaliu.
20 A. The passenger trains have a four-figure number and freight trains
21 have a five-digit number. These are regular trains that are in movement.
22 Q. And which column?
23 A. In the second column, that shows the number of the train, and you
24 can tell whether it's a passenger or a freight train.
25 JUDGE KWON: Can the witness put that log on the ELMO, please.
1 MS. ROMANO: Sorry, Your Honour. I didn't see that.
2 Can the usher please put the log on the ELMO.
3 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, can you briefly show again the column where the
4 information about the trains can be found in the log.
5 A. Yes. Here it is. This is the second column, and here are the
6 train numbers, and on the basis of these numbers, you can tell whether
7 it's a passenger or a freight train.
8 Q. And at the same page, how can someone know the direction of the
10 A. You can tell the direction of the train on the basis of the number
11 at the end. If it is an even number, the train is going in the direction
12 from Han i Elezit to Fushe Kosove. If it's going from Fushe Kosove to Han
13 i Elezit, then it's an odd number.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you also show to the Court the place in the log
15 where you can identify the on-duty signalman.
16 A. Yes, I can show you. Here you can notice the person going off
17 duty and here the person going on duty. There he is handing over to this
18 other person on the other side of the log, that is, the person taking up
19 the shift.
20 Q. Which number? Which column?
21 A. The column is not significant, because it's written along the
22 lines. Here is the end of shift, and on the same line you have the person
23 handing over the shift to his successor. So the column is not important,
24 but there it is at the end of the shift. It's written each time.
25 Q. After the 25th of March, you told the Court that the Albanians
1 were told not to come to work any more. Is there any record made by an
2 Albanian on-duty signalman in the log after the 25th of March that you are
3 aware of?
4 A. You can tell this on the basis of the signatures, and if the Court
5 will allow me to illustrate this. For example, on this page we have here
6 an Albanian handing over the shift to a Serb, who takes over from him. At
7 this time, there were both Albanians and Serbs. And here we have the Serb
8 handing over to the man coming after him, who is an Albanian, and so on.
9 And then you can look at the page after, 25th of March, and you can see
10 that there were no longer Albanians at their jobs.
11 Q. Thank you. Using your experience and the log as your source,
12 prior to March 1999, how many trains usually passed through the Ferizaj
13 railway station every day?
14 A. This varied. For instance, before the 1990s, there was greater
15 traffic of both passengers and freight, but after 1990 it declined. And
16 regular passenger trains, before March 1999, there were three in each
17 direction, three to Fushe Kosove and three to Han i Elezit; in other
18 words, six trains.
19 Q. And how many carriages did the trains usually have at that time?
20 A. These trains had two carriages or, very rarely, three or four.
21 Q. Were the number and the frequency of trains increased after the
22 NATO bombing?
23 A. Yes. We can show this from the book. The number of the trains
24 increased, and also their length.
25 Q. If you look, for example, at the log of the trains on the date 3rd
1 of April, how many trains can you see at that day, Mr. Bucaliu?
2 JUDGE KWON: And after that, could you help me to find where Elez
3 Han is in the map.
4 MS. ROMANO: The Serbian name is Djeneral Jankovic. Your Honour,
5 it's not shown on the map that I used with the witness, but I will see if
6 I have another one.
7 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, can we go back to the question? If you look at the
8 trains on the date, on the 3rd of April, how many trains can you see
9 passed through the railway station that day?
10 A. Yes. From 7.00 in the morning when the shift started, when this
11 person took up his job, until 2100 hours, there were eight trains passed
12 during the course of the day.
13 Q. And are you aware if the number of carriages were the same?
14 A. No, it wasn't the same. I can't say how many carriages there were
15 because I wasn't there, but during the days when I was there, at that time
16 they had a minimum of ten carriages. And there were cases when they even
17 had 20 carriages, ten passenger coaches and ten freight cars in which
18 passengers had been put. In other words, freight trucks full of people.
19 Q. And were the trains coming from Fushe Kosove, were they full?
20 JUDGE MAY: We haven't yet established which way the trains were
21 going. Can you help us about the 3rd of April? Which direction were the
22 trains going?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. On the basis of the log,
24 we can show where they were going. As I said, odd-numbered trains were
25 going from Fushe Kosove to Han i Elezit. For instance this one, train
1 number 37893, is a passenger train, a special one, because the "3" is in
2 front, showing that it is a special train. So it's not a regular
3 timetable train. But there was special traffic rules enforced beyond the
4 timetable at this time. And this train was supposed to stop in Ferizaj
5 but it didn't. That arrow shows that it passed through. And here's the
6 time when it passed through.
7 And here's another one immediately after it.
8 JUDGE MAY: Just stay with the first one. Which direction was it
9 going? Was it going towards the border or not?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's going in the direction of
11 the border, in the direction of Han i Elezit, which is the border with
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.
14 MS. ROMANO:
15 Q. And what was the reason it stopped at the railway station in
16 Ferizaj? Can you explain what that arrow means in the log?
17 A. This arrow shows that the train passed through and didn't stop.
18 Even though it was a passenger train and, according to the timetable, it
19 should stop. However, whenever I was there, I saw that these trains were
20 full of passengers, and I saw them going through Ferizaj and continuing to
21 Han i Elezit crammed with passengers, and this arrow shows it didn't
22 stop. And in other cases when the train wasn't completely full, it would
23 stop and take on passengers at Ferizaj station.
24 Q. And how did they overcome the problem of the overcrowded trains,
25 of the people who could not board at that time?
1 A. When the train didn't stop at Ferizaj, it would happen that the
2 stationmaster would call on the bus station for assistance and would ask
3 for buses to carry those passengers, to carry them into the direction of
4 Han i Elezit or other directions. I'm not sure where the buses went but
5 no doubt they went to Han i Elezit. And there were also cases in which
6 trucks were brought near the railway station and people got into the
7 trucks and went in the direction of the border.
8 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, are you aware of who was in charge of organising all
9 this, to make it possible that trucks and buses were made available?
10 A. The person who asked for help was the stationmaster, Ilic, but the
11 person who sent the buses was no doubt the director of the bus station or
12 a firm that had trucks. Fertrans, it was called, and their trucks carried
13 a lot of passengers.
14 Q. From 31st of March until 7 of May, there are some usual entries
15 from column 42 up to the end. For example, if you take a look on
16 information on the dates 29 and 31st of March on the log -- Mr. Bucaliu,
17 can you go to dates 29 and 31st?
18 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, in the copy, the set of copies, is the
19 ERN number. It's K0218505, for your assistance.
20 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, have you seen these entries before?
21 A. No, not these notes. I -- they were -- these kinds of notes were
22 not used in the log previously, and you could see this by making a
23 comparison, that these kinds of notes were not made before, but here they
24 are. They have been made. And this shows that -- that the train traffic
25 moved according to special rules. It wasn't a regular timetable. And
1 this was no doubt done because these trains were escorted. In other
2 words, you can interpret this as either military escort or police escort,
3 and you can tell this from the notes.
4 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, can you tell us what is written? I know that you
5 understand Serbian, the Serbian language. What is written in those
6 columns? Can you translate for us?
7 A. Yes. "The train is running according to the rules, with an escort
8 from Fushe Kosove."
9 Q. And have you ever seen what type of escort was that?
10 A. Yes. I saw at this time. When I was there, I saw a number of --
11 an increased number of policemen on these trains that were running. I saw
12 policemen in the trains.
13 Q. Can you describe the policemen? How were they dressed?
14 A. They wore police uniforms, regular police uniforms, as were worn
15 by the Serbian police. It was blue, white, and a kind of brown. It was a
16 camouflage uniform.
17 MS. ROMANO: May I have the witness shown Exhibit 18, I believe.
18 Mr. Usher, I don't think I will need the log any more, the log.
19 You can just take it.
20 THE REGISTRAR: The log will be numbered Prosecution Exhibit 63.
21 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, can you look at the photo that the usher is putting
23 on the ELMO and can you indicate to the Court if you can identify any of
24 the uniforms that you saw accompanying the trains?
25 A. These are the police uniforms that they had.
1 Q. Can you tell us the number?
2 A. Number 6.
3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bucaliu, where were you on the 2nd of April, 1999?
4 A. Excuse me. If we can go back. I would like to go on to explain
5 that there were no more Albanians there, because -- because there were no
6 more Albanians, if the Court is willing to accept my evidence, and then we
7 can go on. But --
8 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, I think you gave this evidence already. You
9 indicated to the Court there were no more Albanians as signalmen. I think
10 this was already -- is already done. Thank you.
11 If we can move on, where were you again on the 2nd of April, 1999?
12 A. On the 2nd of April, 1999, I was at home, in my home village of
13 Fshati i Vjeter.
14 Q. Was your village surrounded on that day?
15 A. Yes. Our village was surrounded in the morning, at about 8.30.
16 Serbian army tanks entered our village and quite simply surrounded us.
17 MS. ROMANO: May the witness be shown Exhibit 17.
18 Q. Looking again at this set of photos, sir, can you just please tell
19 the Court if you can identify the tanks that you saw on that day. You can
20 look first on the photographs, and then if you identify one of them, you
21 just pass it on to the usher and he will put it on the ELMO.
22 A. There was one of these, but there was another kind that I don't
23 see here. Here it is. This one. So there was this one, this kind of
25 Q. Can you tell the Court the number, please.
1 A. Number 6 and number 1.
2 Q. Thank you. Did any soldier approach your house on that day?
3 A. If I may be allowed to have the map of my village again, I will
4 explain to the Court where the tanks came from and where they positioned
6 Q. The map that you drew, Mr. Bucaliu?
7 A. Yes. Yes. There's no other one.
8 MS. ROMANO: I don't remember the exhibit number.
9 Q. Can you please, briefly, Mr. Bucaliu, explain from where did the
10 tanks come.
11 A. The tanks came from the Ferizaj-Gjilan road, so this entrance to
12 the village was where they came in. And there were three tanks came along
13 this road, and there were two or three officers walking in front of the
14 tanks, and then there was another tank went in among the fields and here
15 stopped by the yard of my house. Out of fear that something worse might
16 happen to us, the young people and the young men decided to leave, and my
17 eldest son, who at that time was 15, decided to go, and my uncle, who was
18 in my house at the time, we all decided to -- we all started to go out
19 into the road. And meanwhile, I told my wife and daughters to remain at
20 home. And then they came up closer --
21 Q. Sorry to interrupt you, but my question was: Did any soldier
22 approach your yard or your house?
23 A. Yes. It was a tank that came into the yard of my house, and there
24 were soldiers in the tank. We met the officers of this -- these army
25 officers, and we went back and met these Serbian officers.
1 Q. And were they in uniform?
2 A. Yes, they were wearing uniforms.
3 MS. ROMANO: Can I have the witness shown the Exhibit 18, I
5 Q. Do you recognise in these photos any of the uniforms -- or the
6 uniform you saw that day?
7 A. These photographs aren't very clear, but it seems
8 number -- photograph 9 seems the closest.
9 Q. Thank you. Did the soldiers tell you what they were doing there
10 or what they wanted from you?
11 A. Yes. When we went back and met the officers, these Serbian
12 soldiers, one of them introduced himself as a major, and I introduced
13 myself and said that I am Bajram Bucaliu. And he asked me about the
14 structure of the population in the village, and indeed the name of the
15 village and the structure of the population, and I told him that there
16 were Serb and Albanians. And he asked about our relations: "What are
17 your relations like with your Serbian neighbours?" And of course, I said,
18 "We don't have any problems. They're rather good." And he asked, "Who
19 is the head of the village?" I didn't dare say who the head of the
20 village was, and I said, "Our village doesn't have a head, but we have the
21 tradition of respecting the elderly, so you can talk with one of the old
22 men." At that moment, my father was the oldest person in the village, and
23 I suggested that he talk with my father.
24 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, we'll have to be more objective in the evidence here,
25 and you have to be more precise and objective in your answers. I asked
1 you what did the soldiers tell you or your father what they were doing
2 there and if they wanted anything from you or from the villagers.
3 A. They said, "We are the regular army and you won't have any
4 problems from us," and that's what we thought too, but in the end it
5 turned out differently. They told us that we should go and hand over
6 weapons if we had weapons. We said, "Our village doesn't have weapons."
7 There were no KLA here. And they asked us if there were any KLA here, and
8 we said no. We had a couple of hunting rifles with licence, and we handed
9 over these two guns.
10 On the next day, in the morning, they entered the houses and
11 searched the houses thoroughly to see whether there were weapons or not,
12 and there were no reports of any arms being found anywhere. And then they
13 took my truck from me. It's a Mercedes, which I had left with my Serbian
14 neighbour, with the idea that it would be safer there. And they asked me
15 for the keys to the truck, supposedly to see what was inside, but they
16 didn't even open the back of the truck to see what was in it but
17 immediately got into the cabin, started up the truck, and went off in the
18 direction of the Ferizaj-Gjilan road.
19 Q. Did they ever return the truck to you?
20 A. No. I've still not seen the truck down to the present day.
21 Q. Was any other property taken by the soldiers?
22 A. Not from me. They didn't take anything from me, but there was my
23 truck and there was another truck, and there was a depot with a lot of
24 agricultural equipment, and I saw them -- with my own eyes, I saw them
25 plundering other trucks besides my own.
1 Q. Was there any burning or looting?
2 A. There was burning on the 3rd of April in the morning.
3 Q. Can you describe briefly --
4 A. Excuse me. I'm sorry. It was the 5th of April. In the morning
5 on the 5th of April, they burned houses. And we were surprised to see the
6 smoke coming out. This was the house in which the Serbian soldiers had
7 housed themselves.
8 Q. Mr. Bucaliu --
9 A. And we only saw smoke and flames.
10 Q. Do you know the reason? Why did they burn the houses?
11 A. I can't imagine any reason that they might have. There was no
12 reason for them to burn these houses. I told you there was no KLA in our
13 village, and quite simply, they had no reason at all to burn houses. We
14 thought and indeed they said that this was the regular army, and we
15 thought we wouldn't have problems from them. But it turned out
16 differently, because on the 5th of April, they burned four houses.
18 Q. Did they leave your village at any time?
19 A. Yes. At that moment, when they were burning the houses, the tanks
20 went out onto the main Ferizaj-Gjilan road and went in the direction of
22 Q. On the 5th of April, was your village occupied again?
23 A. On the 5th of April, the military forces with the tanks left,
24 but -- and we thought that probably we were safe after that. And then
25 only these houses that were burnt and those trucks that were robbed from
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 us, but that was not the case, because in the afternoon - it was around 15
2 hours - other forces, paramilitary Chetnik forces came.
3 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, can you describe these forces? First, what did you
5 A. Yes, I can. It was about 4.00 p.m. when these troops had entered
6 from another direction, from the other entrance to the village which leads
7 to the road Prishtina-Skopje. That is where they came from. And they
8 went from house to house.
9 They came to my own house. I was sitting at the stairs and then I
10 saw --
11 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, I will just interrupt you. Before you go ahead, I
12 asked you to describe. Did you see vehicles, cars? Did you see how they
13 were dressed? Can you be more specific on the details about these
15 A. They didn't have any vehicles with them, but they were wearing the
16 usual army uniforms, wearing caps, the cockades, and military uniforms.
17 And in those uniforms was -- they had insignias. It was a human skull
18 with a cross, and on the other side it was written "SCP," which I think is
19 Serbian Chetnik Movement. They had beards. They were unshaven, and armed
20 with light weapons, automatic rifles and knives.
21 MS. ROMANO: Can I please have the witness shown Exhibit 18
23 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, again can you see if you can identify among the
24 uniforms one that is similar to the one you saw.
25 A. It's not very clear, but it resembles more photo number 8.
1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bucaliu, were the villagers able to move freely
2 from one place to another when these forces were in your village?
3 A. No, because they put their own order in the village. That is,
4 first they informed us who they are, who they were, telling them that from
5 then on, they were going to stay there and that the villagers, according
6 to them, would be free to move about from 7.00 in the morning to 7.00 in
7 the afternoon, to work their lands, to go about their business, but they
8 wouldn't be able to leave the village without having their special
9 permission. Only in that case could they leave the village.
10 Q. Were people ordered to do any type of work?
11 A. Yes. On the first day, they forced us to find 25 young men who
12 were supposed to do something for them. And then on the next day at 8.00,
13 they should report to a certain place. And a man, in this case it was my
14 father who promised to do that, he agreed with some other villagers that
15 they would send a person, that is a total a 25 young men who would be sent
16 to the place where they were asked to go. My brother was one of them. He
17 went with the group. And from the next day - it was, I think, 6th of
18 April - they were forced to work and to dig trenches for protection,
19 allegedly for protection against NATO airstrikes.
20 Q. Do you remember what happened on the 13th of April?
21 A. Yes. On the 13th of April, in the house of a neighbour, because
22 we used to get together two, three families, because we thought that in
23 this way it would feel safer. So in the house of my neighbour, Emin Zeka
24 and his two sons were killed at about 8.00 p.m. when electricity was cut
1 Q. Did you see the killings?
2 A. I didn't see it with my own eye, but this is what happened.
3 Q. How do you know that?
4 A. Because a neighbour came on the next day. He's the Muslim
5 priest. And he told me -- it was about 10.00 in the morning. He came up
6 to me and told me what happened that previous night. Emin and his two
7 sons had got killed.
8 Q. Did you see the bodies yourself at any time?
9 A. I didn't see the bodies.
10 Q. When did you leave your village, Mr. Bucaliu?
11 A. We were forced to leave the village on the 14th of April, that is,
12 after these murders.
13 Q. When you say "forced," what do you mean by that?
14 A. I say because so far we -- until then, all our vehicles were taken
15 away from us. All the money was taken away. We were constantly being
16 robbed. And we stood up, nevertheless, but when killing started, then we
17 were not expecting anything worse than that, so we thought we had to save
18 our lives.
19 Q. Did the other villagers remain in Fshati i Vjeter?
20 A. No. In the part of the village where I lived, only two old people
21 remained who couldn't walk away. But when we returned, we found their
22 bodies burned. As to the others, they all left.
23 Q. And where did you all go?
24 A. We went in the direction of Ferizaj. There was a kind of valley.
25 We tried to run away and find shelter there, fearing we might get killed
1 in the village. So we tried to leave in the direction of Ferizaj. And
2 most of the village inhabitants went that way. They passed by my house
3 where a valley is situated, and they all left in that direction. I was
4 left behind because my mother was sick and couldn't leave with the crowd.
5 So I was forced to stay with her in the village.
6 Q. Approximately how many people left at that time?
7 A. Approximately some 500 or 600.
8 Q. Did you all go to the Ferizaj railway station?
9 A. Yes. That night we stayed the night in Ferizaj, finding shelter
10 wherever we could, and on the next day, we went to the train station.
11 Q. How crowded was the train station?
12 A. In my view, that day there may have been around 4.000 to 5.000
14 Q. And how many people were in your train, the train that you
16 JUDGE MAY: Let him tell what happened. He hasn't mentioned the
17 train yet.
18 MS. ROMANO:
19 Q. So what happened after you arrived at the railway station?
20 A. After we arrived at the train station, since I was someone who
21 worked there, I contacted the stationmaster and asked him if a train was
22 coming, and he said yes. And that large crowd of people kept waiting the
23 train, which came at about half past eight, I think. It had ten
24 carriages. There were some travellers but not very many. But in Ferizaj
25 station, the train was crammed with people. In my view, there may have
1 been around 2.500 people that boarded the train. The train set out in the
2 direction of Elez Han, and we arrived in the train station of Elez Han.
3 Q. Do you remember seeing police on board?
4 A. Yes, there were policemen in the train.
5 Q. After you arrived in Elez Han, what happened?
6 A. After we arrived in Han i Elezit, we stayed in the train up until
7 12.00. Since I used to know the stationmaster of Han i Elezit - his name
8 was Davidovic - I asked him, "What is going to happen with us? Why are
9 they letting us go further?" And he told me that, "We are trying. We are
10 talking about the Macedonian authorities to let you in, but so far we have
11 not yet received an answer from them." Apparently they were not willing
12 to accept us.
13 At about 12.00, this man, Davidovic, informed me that, "The
14 Macedonian authorities do not want to take you in, so you have to go
15 back." And this is what really happened. The train returned again to the
16 Ferizaj station. We got off the train at this station in Ferizaj and we
17 left the station and went each to our own house or wherever we could find
18 shelter, and on the next day, we went back to the train station.
19 Q. And was the next train in the station full as the first one?
20 Could you board on the next train?
21 A. You mean on the next day?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Yes, we could board on the train, but not all of us. A certain
24 number of people managed to board the train, and we did, that is, get on
25 the train, and went again in the direction of Han i Elezit.
1 Q. And can you describe how you crossed the border? How did you
2 cross the border?
3 A. Yes. When we arrived at the train station in Han i Elezit, again
4 I asked Davidovic, "What is going to happen to us today?" And he told me,
5 because he already knew, that the authorities of Macedonia would accept
6 us. And this is what happened. After five minutes of staying there, or
7 ten minutes - I'm not sure - the train continued its journey to the border
8 with Macedonia, which was not a normal thing to happen, because usually
9 passenger trains shouldn't go up to the border but remain at the station.
10 But in this case, the train went up to the border, and this happened also
11 with our train. When they -- when the train arrived at the border, it
12 stopped. Some Serb soldiers, with tractors and other vehicles, passed by
13 on the road which ran parallel to the rails, and they told us to get off
14 the train. When people saw police and soldiers, people were scared. At
15 the moment I told them, "We should get off the train because this is what
16 we are being told to do." And this is what we did. We got off the train,
17 and for half an hour we were kept there, gathered at that place.
18 After half an hour, they ordered us to walk in a line of two and
19 get before the locomotive, in between the rails, and not try to leave the
20 rails, because otherwise -- they told us that the ground is planted with
21 mines. Therefore, we had to stay in between those two rails and walk
22 along the rails. And this is what we did. We lined up by twos and walked
23 up to the border with Macedonia.
24 Q. Thank you. You mentioned soldiers and policemen. Did they wear
1 A. Yes, they did.
2 Q. Were the uniforms any different from the ones you pointed already,
3 you indicated that you saw already?
4 A. No. They were the same uniforms.
5 MS. ROMANO: Can I have the witness shown Exhibit 3, map 11,
7 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, this is a map that will show a similar route to the
8 one you described during all your testimony. The names are with the
9 Serbian version. Can you please demonstrate or indicate to the Court how
10 was the route that you took from your village, Staro Selo, or Fshati i
11 Vjeter, up to the border?
12 A. This is my village, here where I'm pointing at now, at the
13 crossroads of the roads Prishtina-Skopje and Ferizaj-Gjilan. I said that
14 we arrived at the train station from the village, that is, in Ferizaj
15 train station. On the day that we left Ferizaj, it was the 16th of April,
16 for the second time. Then by train we walked -- I mean, we drove this
17 way, up to the border, further than the usual train station of Han i
19 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, Han i Elezit, when you say, is the same name as
20 Djeneral Jankovic, isn't it?
21 A. Yes, it's the same name. In Serbian it's Djeneral Jankovic.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you. When did you return to Kosovo, Mr. Bucaliu?
23 A. We returned to Kosova on 7 July of the same year, that is, 1999.
24 Q. And was your house in the same way as when you left?
25 A. No. It was burnt up, and the houses of my two brothers, who were
1 living close by, as I said, were burnt, along with many other houses in
2 the village.
3 MS. ROMANO: Thank you. Your Honours, I don't have any further
5 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
6 Mr. Bucaliu, I wonder if you could just help us with the dates of
7 some of these events. On the 14th of April, you left the village, and the
8 next day you got to the railway station; is that right? The 15th, that
9 would be.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
11 JUDGE MAY: And then you said a train was expected, and as I
12 understand it, it arrived at about 8.30. Was that 8.30 in the evening?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It was in the morning.
14 JUDGE MAY: So would that be the 16th of April?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was on the 15th and on the 16th,
16 because we boarded the trains twice. On the 15th, we went up to the
17 border and came back. On the 16th, we did the same. Again we left in the
18 morning, got off the train, and arrived at the border with Macedonia on
19 the same day.
20 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
21 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] You said that until 1990 you lived together on
24 good terms with the Serbs, that is to say, the Albanians and Serbs did,
25 and that the situation was aggravated in 1990; is that right?
1 A. The situation -- it's true, because until 1990, we were on very
2 good terms with the Serbs, until that time. We used to invite each other
3 to our weddings and funerals, with our Serbian neighbours, and then we
4 would swap agricultural equipment and lend things to each other. But
5 after 1990, these relations cooled, not with everybody, but with certain
6 individuals, and they didn't behave in the same way as they had before.
7 Q. And you say that you invited each other to funerals. Do people
8 invite each other to funerals?
9 A. Yes. Yes. That is normal. When a neighbour dies, the village is
10 informed and people are invited to the funeral.
11 Q. So what do you say the reason is that your relations worsened in
13 A. The reason was, I think, quite simply, political, the politics
14 pursued by the Serbian leadership.
15 There were Serbian people in Kosova who supported this policy, and
16 this is the reason why relations deteriorated.
17 Q. A little while ago, you said that these were constitutional
19 A. Yes, the constitutional changes. Them, too.
20 Q. And when were these constitutional changes carried out?
21 A. The constitutional changes were in 1989.
22 Q. And why were relations worsened then in 1990?
23 A. I think the Serbs, at the beginning, perhaps were not great
24 followers of Serbian politics, but slowly they too started to support
25 them, and this was the start of this chill in relations.
1 Q. All right. All right. This start of this chill of relations in
2 1990. And then why were there demonstrations, the well-known
3 demonstrations of 1981? This was nine years before that.
4 A. In 1979, 1980, 1981, I was at school in Slovenia, and I wasn't in
5 Kosova at this time. But it is well-known to the public that Albanians
6 were asking for their rights to be with -- equal with other republics in
7 the former Yugoslavia.
8 Q. And in what were they not equal? In what way did they not have
9 equal rights?
10 A. They were not equal in the sense that it wasn't called a Republic
11 of Kosova, it was called a Province of Kosova.
12 Q. All right. But in Kosova, there are Serbs and Muslims and Croats
13 and Romany. They all live there as well. Why are their rights not
14 affected by that, only the rights of Albanians? Also the Gorani and
15 Egyptians. That is to say, the rights of them all. There are several
16 ethnic communities. Why were other rights, the rights of others not
17 affected by this, only those of Albanians?
18 A. It's not true that the rights of others were not affected. The
19 rights of others were affected just as the rights of the Albanians were.
20 Q. Was there a special regulation pertaining to Albanians only and
21 not pertaining to others or was there, on the other hand, regulations that
22 pertained to others and not Albanians in Kosovo?
23 A. Please, I am not involved in politics, and I am not able to give a
24 proper consideration of this.
25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the witness's evidence was that
1 relations worsened in 1990 or in the 1990s. Now, that's the matter on
2 which he should be cross-examined. You've chosen to try and take events
3 back, but as he tells you, he was at school at the time.
4 Now, the 1990s may be of relevance to this trial. Earlier events,
5 as far as this witness is concerned, in my judgement are not relevant. So
6 ask him about the 1990s.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, I did not
8 intend to ask him about that at all, but I was impressed by the fact that
9 the Prosecutor referred to constitutional changes during the testimony of
10 Mr. Bucaliu. Previously, he had spoken about his work as a railways man.
11 So since this issue was raised, I raised it too.
12 Also, since he claimed that until 1990 everything was fine, of
13 course it is connected to that. It is only logical to ask why
14 demonstrations were staged in 1981, which is before 1990. And also why
15 there were demonstrations when the army intervened.
16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I don't see the logic, but let us go on
17 with what happened in 1990.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Let us go back to 1990
19 when, as the witness said, relations were worsened.
20 Q. In 1990, what kind of rights were taken away from the Albanians?
21 A. I can only testify to the rights in the workplace where I worked.
22 As I said before, we were deprived of the right to use the Albanian
23 language as an official language in writing and in official communications
24 in the workplace. This was one serious violation of our rights.
25 And then such things were evident in other spheres too. I can
1 tell the Court that on merely for one day's strike on which the Albanian
2 workers were involved in, 130 workers were dismissed from the railways of
3 Kosova and five of them were from Ferizaj. And the others who were not
4 dismissed had their wages docked by 15 per cent for six months. Then
5 between 1990 and 1999, not a single Albanian was taken on for employment
6 in our organisation. Serbs were employed.
7 Q. We'll go back to this question, but the information I have here is
8 that at your railway station, there were 28 employees out of which only
9 six were Serbs. And you include one Romany in that figure. And all the
10 rest were Albanians. Is that correct or not?
11 A. I said that the number of workers at the railway station
12 fluctuated according to requirements. There were times when there were
13 perhaps 28 and sometimes there were less. And sometime in the 1990s maybe
14 it was like that but later on. But then other Serbs were employed at the
16 Q. But in 1999, there were only six Serbs at the railway station out
17 of a total of 28 employees. All the rest were Albanians.
18 JUDGE MAY: He said in his evidence it was eight. Now, I don't
19 think that much is going to turn on those two.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I am asking him about the
21 actual figure, because he has given a descriptive explanation as to the
22 Albanians being deprived of their rights, et cetera. I'm asking him about
23 the figure because there are records about this. How many Albanians were
24 there and how many Serbs were there?
25 JUDGE MAY: His evidence was 17 Albanians and eight Serbs. You're
1 putting it was six and some others. It's not going to make a great deal
2 of difference whether it was six or eight. So let's move on.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Yes. But even if he were right, do you bear in mind the fact that
5 at any rate, even if your figures were correct, the Albanians were the
6 majority in your enterprise, in your company?
7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, that's right. That's what his evidence was, that
8 as far as the railway station was concerned, that was the figures.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right. Let's go
10 back to clarify this question of language.
11 Q. Are you aware that until the regulations on the use of language
12 were adopted, Albanian employees in the public company of railways wrote
13 tickets in the Albanian language only, regardless of whether passengers
14 were Serbs, Albanians, Turks, Muslims, whoever? Are you aware of that?
15 A. I said until 1990, the Albanian language was in official use in
16 the workplace where I worked. And after 1990, we were deprived of that
18 Q. To put it quite precisely, according to law, the languages enjoyed
19 equal rights and enjoy equal rights until the present day, but I'm talking
20 about the actual implementation. Is it correct that until 1990, Albanian
21 employees wrote only in the Albanian and that they would not even issue
22 tickets in the Serbian language to Serbian passengers?
23 A. This would not have been a problem because until 1990, Albanian
24 was an official language and tickets were written in Albanian until that
25 time. But after 1990, this was punishable.
1 Q. It was true that Albanian was the official language until 1990 and
2 that it remained an official language after 1990, but the order that was
3 given was that the Serb language had to be used as well, not only the
4 Albanian language, and especially that Serb passengers had to be issued
5 tickets in the Serb language as well. Why did that bother you?
6 A. It doesn't bother me at all. You should realise that Serbian
7 passengers had tickets written in the Serbian language.
8 Q. Well, that is the point. The forms for tickets, were they
9 bilingual or monolingual?
10 A. I don't remember. I don't remember about the tickets, whether
11 they were written in both, but documentation that we kept at the station
12 was in Albanian, and the Serbs kept documentation in Serbian.
13 Q. So what's strange about that? Why does that bother you, the fact
14 that Serbs did not write in Albanian?
15 JUDGE MAY: Can you answer that? It may be it's not going to take
16 us any further.
17 A. I can answer. We weren't bothered by the fact that the Serbs
18 wrote in Serbian. It was not a problem. But we were bothered when we
19 were deprived of the right to use Albanian, as we were allowed until
20 1990. We had no trouble until then at all.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You had no trouble because you did not use the Serb language at
23 all; is that right or not?
24 JUDGE MAY: I think we've taken this as far as we can go. He's
25 given his answers.
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Nevertheless, I would like to ask him kindly, because he does
3 remember his work quite well, to answer the following question: The forms
4 for tickets and the papers that he worked with at the railway station,
5 were they in two languages or in one language? I claim that they were
6 both in Serb and in Albanian, both languages, that is, and now you answer
7 me: Am I right or not? Because there are documents there. It's not
8 difficult to prove it.
9 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer.
10 A. I said -- we're wandering around the same question. I said
11 before, and I say again: Until the constitutional changes that took place
12 in 1989, the Albanian and Serbian languages were used in the train station
13 as official languages together without any problem, and after 1990, we
14 were forced to write in Serbian, quite simply. We were not allowed to use
15 our language.
16 JUDGE MAY: So the answer is that the forms for tickets and the
17 other papers were in two languages; is that right?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until 1990, they were in both
20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you. Let's move on.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Does that mean that, after 1990, they were no longer in two
23 languages, these forms?
24 A. Yes. After 1990, they were only in Serbian; only Serbian was in
25 official use.
1 Q. All right. All right. And you assert that Albanian was not in
2 official use in 1990?
3 JUDGE MAY: He's given his evidence about that.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And do you know that according to the constitution, both the
6 Albanian and the Serb languages enjoy equal rights, are equal in Kosovo
7 and Metohija?
8 A. I am not aware of the constitution in detail, but I know that in
9 my workplace this right was denied us. So the Albanian language was not
10 allowed in our workplace.
11 Q. All right. Was Albanian not allowed or was it Albanian without
12 Serbian that was not allowed?
13 A. I don't understand the question.
14 Q. Was it allowed to use the Albanian language simultaneously with
15 the Serbian language when it was in use?
16 A. After 1990, no, we were not allowed to use Albanian. That's a
17 fact. I can prove it with books, with documents, with whatever you wish.
18 Q. You mean documents like these?
19 JUDGE MAY: No. I think we've dealt with this for long enough.
20 The witness has given his evidence. We're going to adjourn now.
21 Mr. Milosevic, we'll expect you to turn on to another topic
22 tomorrow morning, not the language.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask him about whether he
24 thinks --
25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Bucaliu, would you be back, please, at half past
1 9.00 tomorrow morning to continue your evidence.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of
4 March, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.